Volume XL Thursday PROPERTy OF NEWFou;vDL~''"' LEGISLATIVE LIBRARy PLEASE RETURN Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 19 26 March 1987

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for the past number of years, the Department of Fisheries ·has pursued a policy of cost-sharing the installation of three-phase power in fish plants throughout the Province. The purpose of this policy is to allow operators, especially smaller ones, to add freezing capacity to _ their existing operations.

This in turn enables these operators to expand and diversify their operations as well as enhancing the quality of the material they produce . Also, Mr. Speaker, it allows these smaller operator/owners to conduct their business on a more competitive basis, especially in relation to larger processors, for whom capital expenditures are not as much a consideration. Mr. Speaker, this programme operates on a cost-shared basis with the Department of Fisheries contdbuting 75 per cent and the owner/operator paying 25 per cent, once applications have been approved.

I 8.Jil that has LlOll pleased to announce today the Department of Fisheries approved another application March 26, 1987 Vol XL under the extension of three-phase power programme. The approval is for the fish plant at New Ferrole on the Great Northern Peninsula, which is owned and operated by James Doyle and Sons Ltd. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro requires a contribution in aid of construction for this · project of $122,000. .

The cost-shared contribution for this project will be James Doyle and Sons Ltd. -· 25 per cent amounting to $30,500, and the Department of Fisheries - 75 per cent amounting to $91,500. Mr. Speaker, this major expenditure by my department will enhance and guarantee the sixty jobs that now exist in the New Ferrole plant. In addition, I have approved a caplin processing license for this facility which, if anything, will increase their work force .

In my opinion, these steps illustrate our faith and commitment to the fishing industry, not only in areas like New Ferrole but by extension they are an example of our commitment to the f ispery of the entire Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: . Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The bon. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Leader of lhe Mr . Speaker, I thank the minister for making a copy available to me in the absence of my colleague, the gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker), whose district is so directly affec _ted,, and also the gentleman from No. 19 RlOll

Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter), both of whom are, unlike the - gentleman for Carbonear (Mr. Peach), being . of a service to their constituents at the moment by ·being directly in their constituencies, in the case of the latter, and the former representing this House, in the case of the gentleman for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey), at a Parliamentary function. In their absences I just want to respond briefly to the statement. First of all, we do welcome the statement. Anything which assists the development of the inshore fishery is a step in the right direction. Mr .

Speaker, we are particularly pleased that the government · has discovered the small fish people. - MR. PEACH: No thanks to you. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I tell you, Sir, I am going to. take my dead time today, because .if I am not going to be heard - MR. PEACH: Why not? You have been a long time dead. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Ah, Mr. SpeakeJ:", the wit of the hon. member just boggles the mind, not his, those who have one . MR. DINN: Do not be so arrogant . MR. SPEAKER : . Order, please! MR . SIMMONS: I will admit to the gentleman for Pleasantville (Mr.

Dinn) that some L1012 March 26, 1987 Vol XL of us have less to be arrogant about than others . MR. DINN: You certainly have less . MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, they are a Loucl~ bunch today. Their leader is gone. Their deputy leader is gone~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There seems to be continuous interruption members on my left". I them for silence, please. MR. SIMMONS: just a from hon . · would ask The · ;Minister of Finance is shell shocked from the despicable performance in the House yesterday, and we will talk about that later.

Let us talk about small fish operators for a moment, Mr. Speaker. Talking about people who have gotten a raw deal, there they are and finally the government has at least ope~ed one eye to do just a little pittance, nothing compared to what they were prepared to do for the big fish companies. But that is another issue, as well, and we will come to it, except in this instance I would have hoped that the minister would have addressed in his statement something of the impact that FBI's privatization will have on the marketing capability of those smaller companies . You can pour in all the money you want, Mr.

Speaker, but if with one hand you do that and with the other you undermine the effort of those small fish operators by . stacking the cards against them through the No. 19 Rl012

p~ivatization of company, then what is terms of net effect? the the la~ge use in M~. Speake~, :finally, it is clea~ that the fishe~y plays a ve~y small role in any development plan this government might have.

I thought the minister's last statement, or just about his last statement, when he .talked about this initiative being an example of 'ou~ commitment' , I say, yes, it is an example but ·not in the sense that he wanted to suggest, it is an example, once again, of the pittance that the inshore fishery gets, it is an example of how weak. and ineffectual is the advocacy in Cabinet fo~ matte~s ~elating to the fishery in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East. MR.

LONG: I would also like to thank the minister fo~ a copy of his statement, and I would raise concerns in the same manner as I did yesterday with the statement by the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr.

Power) on job creation, that in the absence of a coherent programme, both fo~ restructuring the debt problem of the inshore fishery and any kind of long-term development fo~ the inshore fishery, this particular project, while having its own merit and certainly fo~ the people involved at this plant I am sure it will be an exciting development, does n9t amount to a major initiative by the gove~nment.

This particula~ project, with its 25 pe~ cent, 75 per cent formula, could be a good L1013 Mar;ch 26, 1987 Vol XL model to encourage other small operators across the Province to come forward with proposals if they know that they will get this kind of suppo~t from the government. But this project will only be a model in as much as the government must put in plan an invitation to small operators to come forward on their own terms and be assured that the government will respond with support.

This is another project being presented in an ad hoc fashion, and does .not guarantee any genuine programme of support for the inshore fishery. Finally, M~. Speake~, I would just like to raise a point in the minister's statement that is not clear in my own mind, where he says that Newfqundland and ·Labrador Hydro requires a contribution in aid of construction for this project .. Perhaps at another point you could clarify that statement . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Oral Questions MR. TULK: Mr -. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the han. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Yesterday I asked him a question concerning the compensation given to two pat -ronage appointments that were No . 19 Rl013

appointed by the cabinets - of the former Premier Moores and the present Premier. He gave me information which I have to say to him seems to conflict with information given by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) on Tuesday. Let me ask the Minister of Finance has he . done any consultation at all in the last little while concerning responsibilities in this matter? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: I am not- certain what the han. member is referring to, Mr.

Speaker, but I can inform him that I did enquire from the Workers' Compensation Board - or at least the Executive Director, ·I think his title is, Mr. Maynard, at the Workers 1 Compensation Board - in follow up to the remarks I made in the House yesterday. .I . did enquire from him whether irt actual· fact he had received any request or representation from any employer,as is their right, for information on this matter. And he has told me that to his knowledge that he has not.

So not even the employers, who are directly involved and out of whose pockets come any compensation for present employees at the Compensation Board or any consideration given to past members, were concerned enough to enquire about it. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the· member f·or Fogo. MR. TULK: Ll014 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, yesterday -- and I want to quote from Hansard - the minister said 'If he' - referring to me - 'wants that sort of information he goes to the source and the source in this case is the Workers' Compensation Board.' Let me ask_ the minister why did he, i_f he felt it was as clear cut as he said yesterday in this Legislature, feel it necessary to call the Workers' Compensation Commission to discuss the matter?

Is he also aware that I, as a member of this Legislature, was told this morning when -I called the Workers' Compensation Board - the Executive Director of Finance, I believe, was the 'title of the person I talked to - that as a member of the Legislature that information was not available to me? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I just explained to. the han. member why I called.

I called to get info _rmation on whether they had received any legitimate enquiries from legitimate enquirers, if I may put it in those terms, i.e. the businessmen who have t _o ultimately foot the bill for any payouts. I enquired whether they had had any actual legitimate enquiries or enquiries from legitimate sources rather than the sort of spurious enquiries people who are not involved directly, like the Minister of Labour or myself, have had in this House. It was a perfectly natural thing to do and I presume that any citizen in the Province is allowed to use a phone in the Province. MR.

TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. No. 19 Rl014

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. the bon. the MR. TULK: I would remind the bon. that as a member Legislature t suppose employers and have to, in act according to the Compensation MR. DINN: gentleman of this we are some way Workers' How much have you paid in to Workers' Compensation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR .. TULK: Be quie~! The staff of the Opposition Office, I suppose, under the present arrangement, has to have some payments made to the Workers' Compensation Board. Let me bring up another point.

The other . day the Minister of Labour said that he had gotten a legal opinion from the Department of Justice that this information would not be available under The Freedom of Information Act. Now, let me ask the minister if indeed that information is readily available to employers in this Province who are subscribers to the Workers' Compensation Board, if that information concerning the amount that was paid out to those two patronage appointees is readily available to employers upon their calling the Workers' Compensation Board, as he said yesterday it would be? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance.

L1015 March 26, 1987 Vol XL DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do n·ot }qlow _why I am being questioned about this. It is a Workers' Compensation Board issue. If the employers want to ring them they can ring them, if they tlo not want to ring them no one is going to force them to ·ring them. No one apparently has had enough interest in the matter, because it. ls such a foolish matter, to bother phoning up. Only the Oppositi'on feel it is a matter of some importance because they hop~ to get a few brownie points out of it.

The honest-to-goodness, sensible businessmen in this Provin .ce feel quite sure that the Workers' Compensation Commission has done everything that t.hey should do, nothing improper, everything quite normal and aboveboard, and they have not even bothered to ring about it. It is only the member opposite who is making a big boo-haw about it. and he is making himself look so foolish. 1 mean, it _really is ridiculous. • MR. TULK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker .. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, let me say to the bon. gentleman that the $2QO,OOO in funds that has to be paid out of subscribers financing "of the Workers' Compensation Board because of two patronage appointments by this government is important to the people of this Province, and it is not foolish. The only answer that is foolish is the minister's. Now, let me ask a supplementary to the Minister of Labour. In this No. 19 R1015 -

Legislature on Tuesday the minister informed us he had a legal opinion that under The Freedom of Information Act this information was not available. Is he aware that an official of the Workers' Compensation Board believes differently, and said this morning that contrary to what the minister said - that it is available to employers just by their calling, just by getting in contact with the Workers' Compensation Board - if employers want to get this they have to go through The Freedom of Information Act to the Workers' Compensation Board, and that indeed. that is the only way that they can get the information? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour. MR-. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, any member or employee of Workers' Compensation Board is entitled to any opinion that he wants to express to the han. the member for Fogo, but my legal . information, Mr. Speaker, and the information that I gave this .House on Tuesday, was that I had gone to the Department of Justice, sought a· legal opinion and · obtained the opinion, Mr. Speaker, that under

Section 9 of The Freedom of Information Act that information, because it is dealt with in a Cabinet paper, is not available, it is protected . by The Freedom of Information Act. So i~ there is something more clear than that I can tell you I will be happy to say it. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. L1016 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary; Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: That was a f ina! supplementary on that question. MR. GILBERT: Yesterday I ask the minister a question concerning Newfoundland Hydro's proposed move to a new office building.

Is the minister aware that . the · BAE Group are consultants in this matter for Newfoundland. Hydro and are also consultants for the owners of Cabot place? Wil.l the minister not further agree that this is certainly a conflict of interest situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am glad the _han. member brought up this question again because yesterday, I fully admit, I was not up to speed on it. I was rather surpris~d that the han. member brought it up when the Minister of Energy (Mr. Ottenheimer) was out of the Province.

He .has been in the Province and in his seat ever since the House opened just about, he might have been out for. one day or whatever, but the minute he · leaves the Province, which he left yesterday, the han. member brings up a point that the han. Minister of Energy has the responsibility for and undoubtedly has the answer about. That was one point. Now the other point is it was rather interesting, Mr. Speaker, to dig out the information that the member is leaning on. And what do we find?

We find it is a gossipy i tern in a _local newspaper called The Sunday Express, whi~h I personally do not get but that No. 19 R1016 .

does not mean anything, I personally do not get the rag - I mean the paper. But anyway it is in The Sunday Express of February 8. What is the date today? SOME HON. MF.MBERS: The 26th . DR. COLLINS: The 26th. February 8 this sort of gossipy, garbagey little

article is in there, and now the hon. member leaps to his feet in Question Period, which is supposed to be for important, urgent questions, questions important to the public good, and comes out waving this piece of paper, February · 8, with all these allegations and misstatements and so on and so forth. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to indulge your time any longer. I did enquire - I hope the hon. House Leader opposite did not mind .me using the telephone this morning - I did phone _Newfoundland Hydro about the thing - MR. TULK: Tell us what you said to Workers' Compensation! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR.

COLLINS: and Newfoundland Hydro assured me that this was just as it says ·here, "certain people say", "certain sources contend", "certain people suggest", it was all this sort of thing. MR. SIMMS: Very reliable! DR. COLLINS: It was a perfectly straightforward public tender, nothing hidden, riothing in a brown paper bag left L1017 March 26, 1987 Vol XL on anyone's doorstep, a perfectly open public tender for space that they required MR. SIMMS: Written by Russell Wangersky, or whatever his name is . DR. COLLINS: - because they are running out of space. They .now have in one building 101,000 square feet.

They have dotted around the city another 25,000 square feet or so, and they are trying to get it together. They are also trying to get a bit of extra space for other facilities they wish to bring in. So obviously they need a new building so they go to public tender, and that is the whole issue. MR. GILBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

GILBERT: Yesterday the Minister of Finance · challenged me to prove that specifications ·put . forward by Newfoundland Hydro fit the design of a building owned by two Tory fund raisers, namely Cabot Place. Here, Mr. Speaker, are two sets of documents, one the documents for Cabot Place and the other the proposal for Newfoundland Hydro. Now will he not admit this is another prime exarnpl~ of Tory pork barrelling? I would like to table those, please. MR. SIMMS: What are you looking up to the press gallery for? MR. GILBERT: Because they are ·great people, No. 19 Rl017

boy. You just ran them down you talked about The Sunday Express, I want to let them know that we on this side agree with them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bring it up to the Press Gallery. MR. GILBERT: Oh, I will. They can have copies of it. Thank'you. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that was a supplementary question. I presume it was. MR. SIMMS:· Answer it anyway. DR. COLLINS: It was so obscure that I do not know what it is. All I can assure the han. member, when tpe han. minister .comes back he . will make bird soup of his questions. MR.

GILBERT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. GILBERT: . In view of the fact that Newfoundland Hydro · is a Crown corporation, which takes it source of revenue directly from the consumers of electricity in this Province, will he not now agree to carry out an independent enquiry into this apparently shady deal? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BAKER: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: L1018 March 26, 1987 Vol XL The han. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BAKER: My question is to the Minister of Education . (Mr. Hearn).

Tn his answer to my question yesterday he said, and I quote from Hansard, "Before any teachers ft·om outside the Province are hired here that an agreement has to be obtained from the Newfoundland Teachers' Association." In light of the fact that the NTA is notified only after- the hirings ~ave taken place, does the minister now want to take advantage of this opportunity to correct the false information · he gave the House yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education . MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just happen to have on hand a copy of the collective agreement.

If I remember · correctly what I said was that when teachers are hired from outside the Province they are only hired when teachers cannot be found within the Province·. Either they cannot be found in whichever vein the board wants teachers, maybe a specialist in French or what have you, or if a certain board cannot find a teacher to go to a remote area, quite often they will hire outside the Province. If any teachers are hired outside these reasons I would be very surprised. Because there is, as part of the collective agreement, a clause,

Article 6.04, which states that an agreement has ·to be reached with No. 19 Rl018

the Teachers' Association. What the i tern really· says is that 'Preference in hiring shall be given to teachers who are residents of the Province, provided they are qualified and suitable in the opinion of the School Board. ln the event that a teacher must be hired from outside the Province, the Association shall be notified at · the time of hiring. ' They do not have to go to the NTA to ask permission to hire, but the Newfoundlander Teachers' Asso~iation has to be notified at the time of hiring.

You might say this is locking the barn door after the horse is out, but certainly any association has the right to grieve. If a board hires a teacher it should not, in the opinion of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association - which looks after. their . teachers - then undoubtedly that Association will grieve and the board would have to rescind any decision it has made. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: I am happy to see that the minister has corrected the false information he gave yesterday where he said, and I quote again, 'before any teachers are hired an agreement has to be obtained.' Now, Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister of Education relates to the very parag.raph he just quoted from. In his answer to another question yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education said, 'There is a clause in the collective agreement whereby the Newfoundland Teachers' Association has to agree with the hiring.' The clause that the minister just read out - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Ll019 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Would the hon. member pose his supplementary? MR. BAKER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will very gladly · pose my supplementary. Does the minister realize that in the clause he just read out the operative phrase is in the opinion of the School Board'? Tn light of the faci, then, that there is no clause in the collective agreement such as he referred to yesterday, will the minister now take the opportunity to straighten out this matter and to agree that really he has no effective control over the situation, and neither does the NTA? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr.

Speaker, the member is away of base on this one, as usual. The clause in the collective agreement is there as a part of a document drawn up as a tr~partite agreement between the government, school boards and the Newfoundland Teachers' association. The clause does give t~achers protection because if a board hires a teacher from outside the Province because the board cannot find somebody who is either capable or qualified or wishes to go to a certain area within the Province, then the board has to notify the Teachers' Association.

Now, if the member is indicating that the Newfoundland Teachers' Association does not have power enough to grieve if they feel that a teacher has been hired from outside when a teacher is inside, then I think he is taking the Newfoundland Teachers' Association in a very light manner. Certainly, I think they are much more powerful than that and they would be the very fi~st to grieve if the schooi No. 19 R1019 ·

board hired from outside the Province. They would be extremely upset about that,· and. so would we if jobs are given outside this Province to people who could be replaced by people from within this Province who are looking for work. MR. BAKER: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, what I am talking about here is not t~e power of the NTA but the often stated local preference policy of this government·. I will ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is he at some future date as Minister of Education gping to take an interest in the local preference policy as it applies to te:achers in this Province? Is he going to take an interest in getting some control over the way that educational money is speqt in this Province? Is h~ going to get some control over the way that money is spent in terms of the wa.ste in the system? When. is he going to get that kind of control? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, it ~as a long question, but a good question and to the point.

Number one, there is, in that collective agreement, power for the Newfoundland Teachers' Association to grieve any . decision that is made by a school board. Now school boards sometimes make decisions - they perhaps hire people - that anybody can get upset about.

I have been advised on several occasions ~hat substitute teachers, who are out L1020 March 26, 1987 Vol XL - there trying tQ find a few days work because there is an excess of teachers in certain areas, they get very upset when people who work part-time in other full-time professions, as such, come home during holidays or days off and substitute in schools and lake dollars away from them. These teachers have the right to grieve, but in a case like that, of course, they have not got a leg to stand on. But when it comes to hiring from outside the Province, they certainly have.

If the member thinks that the item in the collective agreement is not strong enough, that there really are not the teeth in it there there should be, I wi 11 certainly see that it is on the table again during the next negotiations, which are coming up soon.

Because if he feels that every bit of power that the government, the school boards and the Newfoundland Teachers ~ Association need to make sure our own teachers are hired first should be here in black and white, if it is not now here, then I agree with him, and I wi 11 do everything I can to make sure that the teeth will be there to make sure our teachers are hired for the jobs within the Province, because that is always the intent of this government. ·SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I say to the Minister of Education that is not good enough. It is not .enough to talk No. 19 R1020

around the problem, to say one day that there · must be a prior agreement, word for word - the minister said yesterday there must be an agreement before the fact .:._ and today he gets up and says that is not so and blames the clause in the collective bargaining agreement Now, I say to him, if he is going to serve education and serve this House, he · should first get his facts straight. Secondly, here and problem. he should talk all not come in around the Thirdly, my question, Mr.

Speaker: Does the minister not realize that what we are . talking about here is jobs for Newfoundlanders while he is standing idly by doing double talk, not even understanding the legislation that he is supposed to be involved in and administering? Now, will he come clean with the House and tell this House that from now, despite his · fumbling yesterday, his lack of information today, he will now go . out and dedicate himself to protecting Newfoundland teaching jobs for Newfoundlanders first? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, number one, let me clarify the statement.

Before a teacher from outside the Province is hired in this Province the board concerned h~s to make sure that a person qualified is not here in the Province. If a teacher is hired from outside the Province. then, at the time of hiring, the Teachers • Association has to be notified. Certainly if the Teachers • Association feels that somebody · in the Province was suitable, then they will grieve.

L1021 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Therefore, before that position becomes a permanent position at all, before anyone can take a place here, undoubtedly a grievance would be filed and the board would not have a leg to stand on, as it should be. In relation to the collective agreement, I suggest to my bon. colleague that, · as a former President . of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association, he played a very important

part in collective ~greements, and if there are clauses in here that are not strong enough to give our teachers the protection that they need I will certainly do my part to make sure that we hold the jobs for Newfoundlanders, but perhaps he did not do his job in the past. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER! A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister's oration on the matter of grievances tells us he knows nearly as much about labour as the Minister of Labour does.

Does he not know that grievances are after the fact, after the contract has been entered into? Mr. Speaker, my supplementary - MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. -MORGAN: No. 19 Rl021 0

.J It is w~ll-known the rules of the House call for brief supplementary questions. The bon. gentleman has not been asking brief supplementary questions. H~ has been making speeches and abusing the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the Leader of the. Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister of Education, having now informed the House that the collectiv~ bargaining- agreement does indeed provide for notice only, and having wrongly alleged yesterday that before any teachers from outside the Province are hired an agreement has to be obtained from the NTA, having falsely informed the House of that yesterday, will he, Mr. Speaker, now undertake, if he has not already done so, to publicly · apologize to the NTA for having so badly misrepresented their situation in this matter? And will he undertake, Mr.

Speaker, to ensure that jobs available in Newfoundland education are made available first to people who reside in the Province? That is the issue. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before the bon. the minister replies, I would like to point out that alleging that a person made a false statement is not a parliamentary comment. I would refer "the hon. member to Beauchesne, page 106, for 'false' Ll022 March 26, 1987- Vol XL and 'false representations'. I would ask him if he would withdraw that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I am not clear as to what the words were, but if there was that implication, l withdraw.

I say that in making - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw! Withdraw! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have withdrawn. I do not know what the gentlemen are so excited about. I have withdraw. Mr. Speaker, in its place I say, Sir, that yesterday the minister made certain statements which are contrary- to fact · by his own admission today. I put the question to him ." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, to the question, I simply say to the bon. member that the only confusion is the bon. member's

interpretation of what was said. He was quite clear on what I said and so was everybody else. I would suggest to him, in answer to his final question, that, yes, I will do as I have always done, as this government has done, try to protect the jobs of teachers, as of other people in this Province, so that we will have here in the teaching profession long-time, permanent jobs, which is in great difference to that of the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. No. 19 Rl022

MR. SPEAKER: - The bon. the member for -Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), in light of the fact that there was $177 million, apparently, predicted as the total proceeds of the EPI sale of shares, has the minister been able to establish how much greater the proceeds would have been had there . been no stock option plan established for the company's fourteen executive officers? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: levels peen t_he Mr.

Speaker, both government, as has before and I am sure gentleman knows, and engaged the services agents to advise us privatization proposal put forth to · both of said han. the of on bank, fiscal the that levels was of government and the bank some time in the latter part of last year. We engaged advisors, Mr. Speaker, quite separately. The Province engaged one set of advisors and the federal government, as a shareholder, engaged another set. It was pointed out to us, quite clearly, that the privatization proposal that was put forward by the management and Board of Directors of FPI, _ was not negatively impacted .

In fact, it was an asset _ according to the independent fiscal advice that both governments received, that there be some stock management option for senior executives of that company. MR . BARRY: Mr ·. Speaker. L1023 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Islan ·d. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr.

Russell), in light of the hype that is going on with respect to FPI shares, which may or may not be justified in light of the final price that will occur after the shares begin trading in public, and in light of the large losses incurred with the oil fever which struck and resulted in trading of Mobil options with many large losses incurred in the Province, has the Minister of Consumer Affairs contemplated issuing any statement encouraging people to keep their feet on the ground and recognizing th?t in this stock, as in others, stocks go up and stocks go down? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I have not issued any such statement. However, I understand from various media and so on that the people who are in stock market business and selling the shares have advised each · and every customer who makes an inquiry about these shares ·that, like all such things, there are ups and downs in it, and if they make a decision to buy some shares then they buy them on the same basis as they buy any other shares. MR. BARRY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . No. 19 Rl023

MR. BARRY: Would the minister consider issuing such a statement? I am sure there is a very heal thy outlook for the fishing industry, ·and I am sure that FPI will do well in its management of its resource, but will the minister consider looking at whether in fact the hype that is occurring right now with respect to these shares might need a statement from the minister to encourage people to keep their feet on the ground in terms of investment in these shares? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, certainly if I feel there is a need to issue any such statement in order to protect any consumer ~rom doing something that he or she may be sorry for down the road, I will be only too happy to do it. However, in this particular case, and at this particular, time I do not see that there is a need to issue such a statement. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Tpe hon. the me~ber for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr .. Speaker, 1 have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

In the Fifteenth Annual Industrial Review and Business Forecast, The Evening Telegram of ~arch 25, 1987, there are eight separate one-quarter page ads from the Premier and seven Cabinet L1024 March 26, 1987 -Vol XL ministers. That is eight separate one-quarter page ads from the Premier and seven Cabinet ministers. Would the minist~r not agree that these expenditures on this specific method of advertising, considering the Province's financial plight, represent a ponderous and a scandalous waste? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding of the matter is that that particular addition of the paper dealt indepth with the economy of the Province and the outlook of the Province and development in the Province, that type of thing. I think probably it is the only time that they have ever done that, although they might have done it five years ago. But certainly i.f • they have ever done it before it was most infrequent. It was a particular special event.

And the departments involved in the economic promotion and the economic stimulation of the Province felt that they wanted to help out, to give a b _oost to the whole thing, because we do need the people of this Province more intimately knowledgeable ·about the economy of the Province and what we should do to improve our welfare. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon . the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I indicated in the No. 19 R1024

question this specific method of advertising. In view of the Province's financial plight, would the minister not admit that it would be more fiscally prudent to have put the pretty faces of the Premier, and his seven Cabinet ministers, maybe all on one one -quarter page ad or at least one- half page ad instead of this scandalous waste of eight separate one-quarter page ads costing this Province nearly $3,000? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, we thought of that, but when we lined up all the Cabinet ministers we could not pick the p~ettiest one out, they were all equally pretty, so we decided to go the ·other route. T protested. I said I was sure I could pick out seven others who were equally pretty but no one would go along with it. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. I would like gallery Mayor Lawn, in the Bank. to welcome to the Bill Lockyer of district of Grand SOME HON ·. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And also Hr.

Luke Piercey, President of the Licensed Boarding Home Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON . MEMBERS: L1025 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPRAKER: The hon. the Minist~r of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr . Speaker, on Tuesday, in the House, the hon. the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) - I do not think he is in the House at the moment - asked me a question with respect to the ·appointment of an electrical inspector, and when he asked the question, Mr.

Speaker, he said, "I would like to ask the Minister of Labour to provide some information with respect to the following subject matter. Recently, within the few weeks, an e·lectrical . inspector's job was .filled in the area." Now, Mr. Speaker, because we have electrical inspectors all over the Province, in perhaps twelve or fifteen· or more areas, I did not really know where he was talking about. I do not always know of every appointment, particularly at that level. The Deputy Minister is the chief executive officer and appointments are usually done through that office. But the answer to his question, Mr.

Speaker, is, yes, there was an electrical inspector hired on an temporary basis, temporary in this case meaning for a period of twelve weeks, to fill a vacancy which was brought about by the dismis.sal earlier in the year of an electrical inspector from the St. John's office. That dismissal, Hr. Speaker, has been the subject of a grievance and No. 19 R1025

finally an obviously we a permanent the final arbitration. arbitration, and could not fill it on basis until we outcome of know the In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, there has been some illness with another inspector, which has created some additional work, and we were · forced to · appoint an inspector on a temporary basis. I hope that answers his question, Mr. Speaker. Petitions MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat · Mountains . MR. MORGAN: Now we can -do it in the proper way. • MR. ·wARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to present a petition signed by some 220 people from the district of Bellevue . Yesterday I had the opportunity of meeting with a delegation f['"om the district of Bellevue who called me and asked me -if I would make arrangements for them to meet with the Minister . of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), to which the minister agreed. Mr. Speaker, they do have concerns. Now, hon. gentlemen may wonder why I am presenting a petition from Bellevue. As an elected representative in this House, Mr . Speaker, I do not think anyone should . refuse to present a peti'tion when it is given to them .

L1026 March 26, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Whether a petition is from Bellevue, Naskaupi, ·Torngat Mountains, or St. Mary's The Capes, · if an individual asks me to present it I will do so. Also, Mr. Speaker, I am extremely familiar with the area. MR. MORGAN: Yes, I would say you are. Right! MR. WARREN: In fact, I believe my grass roots started close by, within four or five miles of the Town of Bellevue, just to the West, in a little town called Chance Cove.

I must say that I have travelled over the roads between Chance Cove and Chapel Arm for a number of years, and at least every month I have the opportunity to be out in that area; I am either called out there to attend meetings, o~ to meet with someone on something like this . However, Mr. Speaker, the prayer of _ the petition I read yesterday, and today I want to elaborate on what the 220 signatories want. Between Bellevue Beach and Long Cove, Mr . Speaker, is probably the worst gravel road in this Province, the old Cabot Highway.

Today, around Trout Brook, even the old trees that went across the bogs are still there. That is how bad that road is. The road is not even upgraded, because the base is not solid enough to put any pavement on it . In 1973, the hon. member at the time - the member ror Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr . Reid) now, I think - was fortunate enough to get some pavement in _the area of Chance Cove, Long Cove and Thornlea, but there is still some No. 19 R1026

left undone. Now, Mr. Speaker, those petitions are not asking for too much. They are asking for protection for their children above everything else. A seventy-two passenger bus carries those children some fifteen or twenty miles over this kind of road to school in Chapel Arm and in Norman's . Cove. It is very, very difficult for sch~ol children six, seven, eight and nine years old to be on the bus during this time of year. The prayer of the petition is very simple. It asks to have the road upgraded, and it also asks the department to see that this will not happen again next year.

Also, there are two contractors in the vicinity who are going to .be doing work on the Trans-Canada Highway this Summer and they said to the Minister 'yesterday, 'You may be able to save dollars in the long run if you can tie those two contractors into doing some work on this road at the same time. Why not? if there is any money available.' You must remember, Mr. Speaker, we have to follow the Public Tendering Act, and here . is a chance for government to save some money on this issue. I am quite pleased to present the petition. Yesterday I was a little bit disappointed in the Opposition.

I noticed in the paper · today, 'Tempers flared over road petition.' As I told my friend from Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), and as the paper correctly reported, "He told the Opposition the petition was from his home town area.' Now, Mr. Speaker, home town area. My home town area is Chance Cove, Bellevue, Thornlea, Norman's Cove, Long Cove all those places. Mr. Speaker, the bon. the L1027 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) said something about he future in politics being in Bellevue. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am getting calls from Naskaupi distdct, I am getting calls · from Eagle River, I am getting calls daily .f~om the Bellevue district wanting me to run in those districts. I cannot help it, Mr. Speaker. I cannot .help it if the present member for Bellevue is not doing his duty. It is not my problem. But I will tell the delegates from the district of Bellevue who are in the gallery now that I will do what I can to get pavement on their roads. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. MR. MORGAN: ·By leave. MR. WARREN: One minute, Mr .

Speaker, to clue up . MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I want to thank the member for Bellevue for giving me one minute to clue up. I wanted to say to the bon. member, also, that if there is any way I can help the han. member to help the people in Bellevue _to get No. 19 R1027

their roads improved I will do so. . I am only too glad to help any time people call on me, and I will not refuse to pr~sent a petition in this House from any district in this Province, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN : Thank you, -Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the . five minutes that I have to speak in support of this petition I will do what I promised the committee I would do when I met with them after 6:00 p.m . yesterday, when I met with them upstairs, on the tenth and a half floor.

They told me they did not want anybody playing politics with their road problems and with their petition, and I will not do that, Mr. Speaker. In the . Interim Supply debate, which follows Presenting Petitions, in probably ten or fifteen mlnut~s from now, I will have the opportunity to speak for ten minutes and I will be dealing with this issue then, Mr. Speaker. What I want to do now, Mr.

Speaker, is go on record categorically as saying that I support the people 100 per cent, the 220 signatories and all . the others, children included, who live in Bellevue artd Thornlea in their efforts in trying to get something done with their roads. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member from L1028 March 26, 1987 Vol XL Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), who just took his seat, was asked by the local service district committee in Be _llevue to present this petition. He was also asked to arrange a meeting with the minister, which happened yesterday morning at 9:30 a.m., I understand.

I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that . it was happening. Mr .. Speaker, at no time did I get an invitation to attend that meeting with Mr. Dawe, so the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), who said that yesterday, must realize now that he made a mistake. I was not invited . I asked the committee about that yesterday afternoon . Mr. Speaker, I will deal with that later, in my ten minute speech later - why, and all that. What I want to do now, Mr. Speaker, is respond to a couple of things the member for Torngat Mountains said . Number one, he said that the ·member for · Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) is not doing - his duty, and that he, the member for Torngat Mountains will do. what he can. Mr. Speaker, anybody who has any common sense knows that an opposition member is only as effective as the government is honest ·and democratic and treats people with fair play and justice. If the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), with whom this committee met yesterday, wants to do anything with the _se roads in the Spring, the decision is entirely in his hands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ffl!. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr . Speaker, the minister will . No. 19 Rl028

decide whether these roads are done. And if these roads are done in the Spring or in the · Sununer, Mr. Speaker, I say to the people in Bellevue through· this Legislature, and I say to · the member for Torngat Mountains, more power to the minister and more power to the people in Bellevue and Thornlea. To the minister goes a 11 the praise. and all the credit. I will not want to accept any credit for it.

If the minister fails to do what the people . have asked him to do · through this petition and in their meeting yesterday, to do something with the roads, then the minister will have to take the blame. · I will not take· the blame, anymore than I will take the credit if he does the roads. Let me be on record as saying that. Mr. .Speaker, I support the 220 people whose signatures are on this petition.

The prayer of this petition, by the way, was mailed out to the people in Bellevue arid Thorn lea by me; it was mailed out to them after 'it was discovered that the prayer they had on their petition last week was not acceptable to the House. Mr. Speaker ruled against it, so the next morning I sent out the excerpt from Hansard explaining what happened in the House and then I mailed out a new prayer with attached sheets for these people to sign. That is the petition that was presented by the member for Torngat Mountains. I have a letter I will read during my ten minute speech by-and-by, Mr.

Speaker, which I sent out with this prayer . Why the people in BeLlevue did not want to go through me but wanted to go through the member for Torngat Moun tains instead I will get into· in my ten minute speech, because ·I L1029 March 26, 1987 Vol XL do not want to make this . political, Mr. Speaker.

I support the people in Bellevue and Thornlea in their efforts to try and get something done with their roads, and I hope that the Minister of Transportation and the member . for Torngat, who is working in close li~ison with him not only in Bellevue· but in other parts of the district of Bellevue and olher parts of the Province, I understand, will both do something with these roads. Because if they do not, then the onus ~ s on them, the blame is on their heads. I wi 11 take no credit if the roads are done, but neither will I take any blame if the roads are not done in the Spring, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: Resign!

Resign! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: In my ten minute speech, later on, I will ·deal with the comments coming across the House from people like the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) . Mr. Speaker, he has never been in Opposition and he does not know the frustration of being in Opposition. MR. MORGAN: He is not going to be, either. MR. SPEAKER: Order', please!

The hon. member has flve minutes to reply to the petition and an hon. ·member on that side has five minutes to continue afterwards, so I would ask han. members on the left to hear this hon. member and give him his five minutes to speak. The hon. the member for Bellevue. No. 19 R1029

MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure how much time t have left, but I was saying _that members opposite who have not been in Opposition do not know the frustrations of being in Opposition and coming with petitions to this Legislature. In today' s paper, Mr ·. Speaker, it is stated that ten years ago I brought a petition into this Legislature on behalf of those very same people, parents of · some of the people who were here yesterday, and got no results. Mr. Speaker, if they . got no results it was because they got no results · from this government.

This government was in power ten years ago, this government is in power today, and that is where the money comes from. It comes from ·government. It is taxpayers' money. We, as Opposition members, Mr. Speaker, cannot decide where to spend the money' it is . up to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) : He decides where the money goes, just as the Minister of Education decides where money from his department goes, and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), and so on and so on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed . MR. CALLAN: I support the petition, Mr.

Speaker, wholeheartedly. MR. REID: Speaker, for twenty-two years did not have pavement out Mr . they there . MR. MORGAN: There was a Liberal government here then. L1030 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HF.ARN: Mr. Speaker, I stand wilh pleasu~e to support the petition on behalf of members on this side of the House, especially the Minister of Transportation who is inadvertently absent this afternoon.

He did meet with the delegation yesterday morning and had what I understand to be a very worthwhile meeting, a delegation accompanied by the · member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) who is a bit o·f a m issionary. He made it quite clear he does not hesitate to help out any area when approached, it does not matter whether it is his own or any other. The people in the Bellevue district, as in many other parts of the Province, certainly have very grave concet"ns. Representing a district like St. Mal"y' s - The Capes, t"ough roads in the Springtime is no stranger to us at all .

Some yeat"s ago , when I was here a raw rookie, evel"y Spring we had many tcying instances in the district whet"e people wet"e having problems gettlng childrP.n to school, school buses could not run, etc ., but things have ·tut"ned at"ound . I suggest to the membel" for Bellevue that it is not always up to the Minister of Transportation, necessarily, where the money is _spent. Quite often money is spent where we get, I suppose, the most complaints, where we have delegations in and we have strong representation from members. People out in the field, through their members, have to make known the problems.

No mlnister No. 19 R1030

federally or provincially, it -does not ma:t ter who he is or how good he is, will have knowledge of the problems that ex-ist around a rough, rural Province _ like Newfoundland. Consequently, a lot of the money that is spent in this Province depends upon the representation that comes from the different areas. I am sure the member is well aware of that. In responding to the petition, I would also like to pay tribute to the two school boards in the area that are affected, the Integrated Board in Conception Bay North and the Placentia - St. Mary's Roman Catholic Board.

Usually when people keep children out of school you hear ·about the boards being very upset and threats of court action, etc. We did not hear it in this case because the people on the boards are quite well aware of the terrible conditions that the roads are in in that area this time of the -year and certainly took that int~ consider~tion. Hopefully, in co-operation wfth the parents, there will be ways found to give the students who are affected any extra help they will need. I am sure the parents realize that the children might need help. The boards do realize it and will do whatever they can to provide it.

Certainly, anything we can do in that regard, we will be only too happy to do, also. So, what we are faced with in Bellevue and in many other areas in the Springtime, where our roads are perhaps not upgraded properly, and if they are not paved, is when you get a lot of frost anq a lot of ·snow, drains are blocked and the water drains back onto the road. Almost every area is affected . It is up to us as a government to try to make sure Ll031 March 26, 1987 Vol XL that these areas are looked at and that we do as much as can be done as quickly and as reasonably as possible.

After the meeting yest~rday, I think the Minister of Transportation has · given the commitment to t.he people that lhe area will be assessed, and l Hm sure that in the n~ar future there wi 11 be improvements made in that area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day On motion, t~at the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole on Supply MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! MR.· CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR .. CALLAN : Mr.

Chairman, in speaking on the Interim Supply Bill which, of course, is a money bill, we must all know tnat the debate is wide-ranging on any financial or money bill. What I want to do during this ten minutes, Mr. Chairman, is deal with what happened yesterday in the House and what happened today. I want to get the record straight and · clear, Mr. Chairman. ·Number one, here is what No. 19 Rl031

happened: The gentleman· who just took his seat from St. Mary's - the Capes (Mr. Hearn) talked about the squeaky . wheel getting the grease, in other words. He s·aid, . whether or not an area of the Province gets money for their roads depends on how much noise they make and the kind of representation they have. A week ago it was the public airways, on CBC television, and, of course, anybody who saw that would hardly believe that the old Cabot Highway could be in such a deplorable condition. I think it was built back in 1946.

At my home in Norman's Cove, when I back down my driveway, I back out onto the old Cabot Highway, the same road that leads through Thornlea and, of course, bypasses Bellevue and goes on along to Bellevue Beach. Mr. Chairman, to say that the government: or the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) have not been informed about the terrible conditions of the roads in that area, , you know, is sill.y. It was on the public airways two nights in a row and the Minister of Transportation was on there debating with Anne Budgell, I think, on the very topic.

And, of course, yesterday morning the delegation came in from Bellevue, and I think one gentleman from Thronlea. There were four people from Bellevue and one -from Thornlea. They came in and sat down with the minister. Now, how much higher can you go? What else can be done to make the minister and to make the government aware of the bad roads? Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, the people in Bellevue and Thronlea were led astray by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) or L1032 March 26, 1987 Vol XL the Minister of Transportation. I do not know who. 'But all members of this Legislature, Mr.

Chairman, are aware that petitions come to the House and, once it is presented in the House, they go directly to the minister. Now yesterday morning a _delegation came in from . Bellevue. They brought in a petition with a prayer that I sent out to lhem. They signed it and brought it in with them. Why the petition came to the Legislature . in the afternoon is a fair question, Mr. · Chairman. Why? I mean obviously they met with the minister so they could have said to the Minister of Transportation, in addi fion to the talk that they had with him, now here , Mr.

Dawe, here is a petition with 220 names on it, you see, Mr. Ch~irman. So, Mr. Chairman, as far as getting money spent on these roads, they have gone to the top. They went to the place where the . buck stops. It stops with the Minister of Transportation. That is who decides, as I said just now in supporting the petition. Now, Mr. Chairman, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) who · used to be on this side of the Legislature MR. PEACH: He is better off where he is. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Chairman, when that gentleman crossed the House, and I can dig out the newspaper clippings, if I need to, what was his reason for crossing the House? He sa,id, 'So as I can get more for my district'. SOME ·HON. MEMBERS: Right on! Hear, hear! No. 19 Rl032

MR. CALLAN: So the member for Torngat Mountains, Mr. Chair-man, admitted - MR. YOUNG: We would not take you. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairlllan, would you keep the noise down on the other side? MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have order, please, while the hon. the member for Bellevue is speaking? MR. CALLAN: So the member for. Torngat Mountains, Mr. Chairman, in his action, admitted that Opposition members cannot get things for their district. That is why he decided to cross the House and join the government · benches because, he said, he would get more for his district. .

So the member for Torngat Mountains, in crossing the House, admitted his frustrations. They are the same sorts of frustrations that I have had for the past ten years, Mr. Chairman, the same frustration. I presented petitions on behalf of the people in Bellevue in 1975. Robert McCarthy is quoted in the newspaper as saying that I presented a petition sent in by his parents at that time and he is correct. Why something was not done with the road in 1975, ten years ago, Mr. Chairman, is a good question. Now perhaps the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr.

Reid) cari answer that question, because the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde will have an opportunity, if he wants to, to stand in this Legislature and respond to what I am going to say now. ~ am going to say a couple of things to the L1033 March 26, 1987 Vol XL member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, because in 1973 - MR. MORGAN: Keep it clean . MR. CALLAN: 1 will. In before the 1973, Mr. district of Ghainnan, Bellevue was created under redistribution in 1974, in 1973 the member. for Trinity-Bay de Verde, at that time it was Trinity South which went right down to Sunnyside by the way, took in all of that. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) changed it. MR. CALLAN: Frank Mqores, your buddy, changed it. He knows that, Mr. Chairman. When I am finished, he can speak for ten minutes, Mr. Chairman. Why is he interrupting me? In 1973 ·the pavement was lai 'd in Bellevue- -Thornlea area. It was also done in Norman's Cove, Chapel Arm by the way, all of that ·cabot Highway stretch. · Now, in 1973 what the member for Trinity South at the time said, the present member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid), he went to Bellevue, as a matter of fact, and he held a public meeting.

He said to the people there, "I have so much money", I am not sure what it was, I think it was $500, 000 he said. Perhaps it was only $300, 000, perhaps it was $400, 000. He wi 11 know, but I remember it quite well. I was a school teacher in Norman's Cove and I followed politics because I was involved in trying to build a stadium at Whitbourne and I held meetings with the bon. member regarding that and other things. I rem~mber I was also chairman of the local government in Norman's Cove and we got pavement the _same time. No. 19 R1033

What the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, then Trinity South, said was, "I cannot pave all your roads, so you tell me what roads you would like to have done this year. We will do that much pavement this year and next year I will come back and l will do some more_." MR. REID: No, I never said it. MR. CALLAN: Okay, let me finish and the member will have an opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to rebut. He said, "We will not pave Colliers Bay Hill and we will not pave certain other hills." Big Spruce Hill was another one. He said, "We are going to change the route.

We are going to put in a new transmission line and the road will be redirected." The transmission line has since grown over, Mr. Chairman, where the road was supposed to lead coming out of . Thornlea and going straight over Big Spruce, rather than the way it goes now. So, Mr. Chairman, the reason why these particular stretches of dirt road were not filled in, well, perhaps the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde can answer because he paved that in 1973. Why did he not come back in 1974 when he was still the member and do it? Why? If he could not get the money in 1974, why did not come back in 1975?

The election in 1975, Mr. Chairman, was called for September 16, so the construction season for 1975 was ongoing while the member for what was then Trinity South was still the member. So I would say, Mr. Chairman, the reason why these gaps - that is what they are, gaps - in the pavement, the L1034 March 26, 1987 Vol XL reason why these gaps were not filled in, the onus rests on the head of the present member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, who was then _ the sitting member for Trinity South, which took in that area. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if 1 do not have it correctly, the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde can stand up and te 11 the correct version. But that is the version as I remember it. It was done in 1973, nothing was done in 1974 and nothing done in 1975. Mr. Chairman, I can suggest to you why it was not. done in 1974 or 1975. I can tell you why. It is the same reason, Mr. Chairman, th~t nothing was done with the road in Markland in 1974 or 1975. Here it is: Even though the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) was the sitting member for Trinity South, and he was, for the - construction season . 1974 and 1975, the answer, Mr.

Chairman, is redistribution. It comes up every ten years. In the spring sit ling of the Legislature in 1974 redistribution added ten additional seats. It went up to fifty-one from forty--one. "l'orngat Mountains was added after that and then we had fifty-one. Ten seats were added. Bellevue was a brand new district. The member for Trinity Bay de Verde, then Trinity South, said to himself, 'Well, when _ I run in the next election, whenever Premier Moores calls it, I will not run in Bellevue, I will be running in the new district of Trinity - Bay de Verde, which comes as far as New Harbour.

I would be foolish in the construction season of 1974 or 1975 to go in and pave the Markland road, as I promised to do, because that will be outside No. 19 R1034

of my district.' MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. member's time is up . MR. CALLAN: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave ; MR. CALLAN: I will get back to Chairman. · MR. MORGAN : Mr . Speaker. MR . CHAIRMAN: it; Mr. The han . the member for Bonavista South. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with Interim Supply. Of course, Interim Supply in the House of Assembly is .always a situation where we have to approve funds for the . spending for a couple of months up until the official budget is brought it and carried for the next fiscal year of 1987 - 1988.

We are talking about, of course, in this case, how the funds can be spent and where they can be spent. One of the topic~ now before -the House is the topic of roads. I would like to comment on that matter because I cannot, for the life of me, understand a member of the House standing up and saY:ing, 'Wel l, look, it depends on the government. ' That is entirely wrong because, Mr. Chairman, if that was the case, how can today, for example, the same member L1035 March 26, 1987 Vol XL justify it .- . I see people like George Baker. George Baker is a Liberal · politician, but he is a good one.

He is a good _member -of Parliament. I see him getting . things · done eve _ry second day of the week out i~ that federal riding. He is in Opposition and he is dealing with a different stripe of government in Ottawa, but he is getting things done. Mr. Chairman, I think, would agree to that, because Mr. Baker is his member of Parliament. So ·that is one example . I will give you an example from my own posi_tion. Back in the days of the Trudeau Liberal government, I was in opposition to that government sitting here as a member of the House of Assembly as a Progressive Conservative.

But did I, when I wanted a wharf out in Bonavista or a stage in Open Hall or a breakwater in Elliston, when I wanted things done from the ~ederal government, did I just say, 'Oh, it is their fault it is not being done? Forget • it gentlemen, fishermen, and people complaining. Blame it all on the federal Liberal Government. You are not going to get it. Blame it on them. They will not give it to you .' Did I take that attitude? In no way did I. I was being persistent in doing what?

You do not just get up in the House of Assembly and criticize government and sit down and forget it, like the han . member for Bellevue has done many times qver the last ten years in . this House. Instead of being persistent to get things done in his district and helping out with his constituents, to criticize and the problem . No. 19 the problems of he merely stands walk away from That is an Rl035

abdication of his responsibilities. · Now, that goes for any member of this House. In this case, I refer to the last member who just got involved this debate. in If he had been doing his job as a member, he would · have been persistent in doing what? First of all, he would write consistent letters to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), because of the transportation .of school ·children and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), because of the transportation of fishermen and fishing goods and fish over the roads concerned.

Keep on being persistent in doing exactly that. As the Minister of Education just said, not necessarily the squeakiest gets the grease. But in this case, if you are persistent member and you go in after the minister day in and day out or week in and week out or month after month on a problem, eventually, if you handle it properly and handle it dght, you are going to get that problem resolved. But if you take the attitude, 'Oh, it is" a P.~. Government. I am in Opposition so I am not going to get it done.

I am going to blame it on the government.' Because it is not working that way for members who are good members of Parliament, and I just gave a bouquet to a member w~o is a Liberal, but let us give credit where credit is due. I have to criticize, and I criticize in a fair 'way, the member for Bellevue (Kr. Callan) . It . is not good enough for him to say it depends on the Minister of Transporation (Mr. Dawe), it L1036 March 26, 1987 Vol XL depends. on the government. It depends on him . working in co-operation with the government and being persistent on behalf of a problem which ·is a genuine problem.

Now, ~r. problem is no~ know Chairman , 1 know l he a genuine one. 1 do the Bellevue district that intimately but I met and made many friends in the Bellevue distdct during the campaign of Morrissey Johnson. I campaigned with Morrissey Johnson in that riding and I met and made many friends who are still my friends and will hopefully be my friends for a long time to come. I can fully sympathize with . the people I met brie ·fly yesterday and I know them. I did not know all of them personally, but I know some of them personally for a good many years.

When I was in the Fisheries portfolio I spent lots of time in the Bellevue district. The situation exists now in. Bellevue almost ·the same as it was when I became the member for Bonavista South back in 1972. Mr. Chairman, . I am sure is familiar with what I am going to say. In 1972, after twenty-two years of Liberal representation in the House of Assembly, I went down to take on a man who was very popular as a member, Mr. Ross Barber. He was a good member and he looked after individual problems but for some reason he could not get the b~g problems solved.

Maybe it was because of the attitude of the Liberals who did not like rural Newfoundland at the time and would not do anything for them. There was not · one inch of pavement in . Bonavista South, not one inch when I became the member in 1972. No. 19 R1036

Mr. Chairman, as you are fully aware as of this year, God willing, in 1987, we will have every road throughout the whole district of Bonavista South paved. Now, that is not because I happen to be for ten years out of my fifteen year:s in the House a minister, no . It is because I genuinely worked on the problem, wet-~k after week, . month after month, and was persistent. The word 'persistent' is the issue. I will tell you, Mr . Chairman, sometimes I was even critical of my own government back in the 70s. That is well.known.

But you criticize at the right and appropriate time and not merely go on the a-ttack for the sake of going on attack and not getting things done in your district. I will make a sincere suggestion to the member today and not because the people are in the gallery. I think -their attitude on this and what happened yesterday exists because our friend for Torngat Mountains has such influence. There is no · question and the member for Bellevue might not like it, but our friend for Torngat Mountains has influence with the ministers within this government.

My goodness gracious, two days ago we called what we thought was going to be a little function over at Airport Inn. We called it the frie nds of Garfield Warren, the frie nds of Torngat. We went over ther e and 287 people came in and paid $15. 00 to come in and listen to the Premier and Garfield Warren. Those were the ones who spoke, except the Chairman. So, that clearly shows, Mr. Chairman, this member is quite influential in this government and in this party.

I commend the _people from Bellevue L1037 March 26, 1987 Vol XL who are looking at our friend and saying, 'Look, we have to get this road done, the road from Bellevue over to Bellevue Beach and down to Long Cove and Normans Cove. We have to get it done, a total of about ten miles.' I could not speak yesterday on the petition because of the hassle in the House, which was despicable in my view, it was absolutely despicable what happened in the House here yesterday, but it happened. I would say in listening to our good friend the Minister of . Education (Mr.

Dawe) and 1 istening to the conunents made yesterday, I would like to see the commencement of that work. If it cannot be all done this year, at least get something done this year in 1987. I say it very sincerely. Mr. Chairman, I am going to say s~ncerely before I sit down one thing.

If the han. membe wants to advocate his responsibilites as a member and not work for his constituents by writing letters, making representations, attending meetings, meeting with the ministers in their offices and their officials, if he does not want to do that, because in 198 7, at least for sure 1988, all the roads in Bonavista South will be paved, there will be water and sewer in all the towns that want it out there and most of the major problems will be resolved, Mr. Chairman, I think I will think seriously about moving a little bit along the East Coast of the Province in the next general election. MR.

WARREN: They are after me, too. MR. MORGAN: My friend, I know they want him No. 19 Rl037

out the~e and I would want his suppo~t if I went out the~e, but he is so -popula~ in Lab~ado~, we a~e going to keep him in Lab~ado~ fo~ su~e. He is popula~ all ove~ Lab~ado~. not just in the To~ngat Mountains a~ea. Tt would be awfully tempting, M~. Chairman, to be able to work with my good f~iend Mor~issey Johnson in Ottawa, in that a~eai and to work with the Newfoundland government and the Peckford administration by sta~ting to do the wo~k in Bellevue dist~ict so despe~ately wanted and needed ·out there that I sta~ted doing in 1972 in Bonavista South.

Give me fou~ o~ five yea~s out the~e and the~e will be no mo~e petitions like that looking fo~ ~oad wo~k in Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea~. hea~! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chai~man. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the membe~ fo~ Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I was going to pick up f~om whe~e I left off but it is difficult, of cou~se, afte~ listening to what the membe~ for Bonavista South (M~. Morgan) just had to say. Most of it was unt~ue. Some of it was t~ue, M~. Chai~man. I will tell you the parts that we~e true. He . talked about getting wha~ves and slipways and all of that fo~ Bonavista South. The membe~ is co~~ect because, M~.

Chai~an, he got that f~om a Libe~al membe~ of pa~liament, Dave Rooney. That is how we got that. Now he did not have to work fo~ it at . all because in Ottawa the Libe~al government up the~e was democ~atic, you see, M~. ChaiJ;"man. Dave Rooney got an Ll038 Ma~ch 26, 1987 Vol XL allocation of funds fo~ Bonavista - T~inity - Conception th~ough the Canada Manpowe~ Office based on the unemployment figu~es in his fede~al ~iding. John C~osbie; who was a fede~al membe~, got the same treatment. They were not discriminated against because::~ they were political foes of the Liberals in Ottawa.

Of course, what is happening in Ottawa today, ~ believe, is the same thing. The p~oblem in this Province you see, M~. Chai~an, is that we have almost a dictato~ship. I will go as far as to say almost a dictato~ship. MR. MORGAN: And you want you~ ~oad paved. MR. CALLAN: M~. Chairman, the membe~ who ju£t took his seat had ten minutes and now he is inte~~upting me. I did not say one word while he was spuing out the foolishness, most of it, that he spued out. MR. SIMMS: You we~e not he~e. MR. MORGAN: You do not .stay inthe House. MR. CHAIRMAN: O~de~. please! Could we have silence please.

The hon. the membe~ for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Now, Mr. Chairman, I- want to continue on f~om where I left off just now. It was the forme~ membe~ fo~ Trinity South who, when he represented Bellevue and Thornlea in the Legislature in 1973 gave them some pavement af!d promised to give them some mo~e the next year who failed to do so No. 19 Rl038

in 1974 or 1975, even though two construction seasons . pass.ed by before the election was called in September of 1975. He did- not deliver on the promise, . even though he ~as a position to do it. Not only was he on the government side he was a Cabinet minister, Mr. Speaker. He was the first Minister of Rural Development, I think it was called then, Mr. Jim Reid. So that is why the people in Bellevue and Thornlea did not get their pavement when they should have got it, Mr. Chairman, becaus .e of redistribution.

He said, 'Well, I would be foolish to continue paving the ·.areas in Bellevue ·and Thornlea if I am going to be running in Trinity - Bay de Verde which ends at New Harbour. ' Of course he spent his money down the shore. He was supposed to dq Markland Road at the same time and he did not . Actually, what happened to the pavement that was supposed to go to Markland, he got so. much pressure from Old Shop that Old Shop got · the pavement, Mr. Chairman. Now, getting back to the member for Bonavista South and his talks about lobbying. Every Spring, Mr.

Chairman, I consistently write the Minister of Transportation outlining the areas of my district where they have dirt roads and where they need pavement. Every Spring I consistently do _ it. MR. Y.OUNG : Table it . MR. CALLAN: Mr . Chairman, the Cabinet Minister from Harbour Grace should not even be in the Cabinet, but here he is in somebody else's seat interrupting me. L1039 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. CHAIRMAN: · Could we have silence.please. The hon. -the member for · Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I did not attend . the meeting in Bellevue -in the last week or so, when the meetings were ongoing, and the reason I did not attend the meeting in Bellevue last night - a meeting was held in the town of Bellevue last night where the Committee, who were in h~re yesterday, had to go back and report to the people in a public meeting. I would have gone to Bellevue last night if I was invited. I talked to the five gentlemen upstairs. They did not invite me to come over. I asked ,. them why they did n9t invite me to at tend the ·meeting with Mr. Dawe.

They said that they thought I would ha~e phoned them and invited myself. But, Mr. Chairman, you see, I do not work like that. .SOME HON. MEMBERS: .Oh, oh! • MR. YOUNG: · You do not work at all for your district. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr . Chairman, the same gentlemen are interrupting still . Mr. ·chairman, I want to tell you that I know that the Minister of Transportation has sent out a letter to my district telling the people - MR. YOUNG: That you are not good. MR. CALLAN: No. 19 R1039

- that you will get no money for road improvements by makipg noises, it is done on need. In another area of nly district, last .Sp~ing, Mr . Chairman, the Minister of Transportation went out and he and Captain Mor-rissey Johnson met with a Committee in ~illview. I was not invited by the Committee and neither was I asked to take part. The reason that I was given by the Committee is they figured they would have a better chance of getting some money for their roads in the Hillview area if I was left out of ~he picture.

I said, 'If you think you can get more money for your area by dealing directly with the minister, go ahead.' On a couple of occasions, Mr. Chairman, I did set up meetings for the Committee from Hillview to come in and we sat down with the minister. I was there and so was the Committee. But the Committee had the feeling, Mr. Chairman, that because this gove~ment is so undemocratic and dictatorial and tries -to do things behind the backs of Opposition members and tries to take credit away whenever they can - you see, Mr .

Chairman, last Spring Hillview got $150,000 after their meetings, Captain Morrissey Johnson, the Minister of Transportation and the Committee. They got $150,000 . Of course in the next week in The Packet the Minister of Transportation makes an announcement. He was pleased to announce some funding for the .roads, in conjunction with his colleague . in · Ottawa, Captain Morrissey Johnson . Now, Mr .

Chairman, anybody who knows · anything about the Houses .of Assembly and Houses of Commons knows that the federal member in Ottawa does not have anything to Ll040 March 26, 1987 Vol XL do with alloc~ting funds for local ro~ds. The Trans-Canada Highways agreement, sure some of it is funded by Ottawa · and so on. But it is the Minister · of Transportation who decides. So ., Mr. Chairman, as I said, if the people in Markland, Bellevue, Thornlea, Hillview, anywhere in my district, can get improvements to the roads by leaving me out of the picture, that is fine with me.

I am not going to impose myself on them. r.ast week, when I tried to present a petition on behalf of the people in Bellevue and was stopped by His Honour , because the petition was not worded properly, I asked a couple of questions of the Minister of Transportation. I asked · him in Question Period and then we had a five minute debate on Thursday afternoon, during the Late Show, where I again said to the Minister of Transportation - I lobbied with the minister here in the Legislature - 'You should pave these roads for these people in Bellevue and Thornlea for two reasons .

There are going to be two paving contractors on the Trans-Canada during the Summer recapping the Trans- -Canada between Whitbourne and Chance Cove Gull Pond intersection.' The other reason that I gave to the minister is 80 per cent of the people in Thornlea and Bellevue voted for Mr . Dawe, voted for the Premier and voted for the P. C. Party, in · the last election. So, therefore, they did him a favour, they did the government a favour, the P.C. Party a favour, so now you owe them a favour . I made these two references last week long before this petition came in and long before the meeting was - No. 19 R1040

MR. MORGAN: Is that the reason why (inaudible). MR. CALLAN: - held yesterday morning. Mr. Chairman, the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) tried to get kicked out of the Legislature yesterday, and the Speaker, His Honour came very close to doing it. It is not a very sensible way for him to try and get a Cabinet post. t do not know what he is at it for. He was at it yesterday. He is trying to get noticed by the press or by somebody. Obviously not by the Premier because the Premier was not here yesteray, and he is not here today.

I am sure that the Premier, with all of his bad faults, does not condone unparliamentary questioning of the Chair, insulting the Chair, refusing to listen to the Chair - when he is called to order. MR. MORGAN: I will do it again whenever my rights are trampled on. MR. CALLAN: He is doing it · ~ight now, Mr. Chairman. He. is questioning Your Honour. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have silence? MR. CALLAN: He is ignoring you~ authority Your Honour. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have silence, please! The han. member's time is up. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MORGAN: Ll041 March 26, 1987 Vol XL You are not coming with us, we do not want you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ord .er, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, having presented the petition earlier today, I thought it would only be appropriate that I should have a few minutes in the debate that is ongoing. I should say to the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) that the Premier is presently attending· the First Ministers Conference _on Aboriginal Rights in Ottawa and I am sure the Premier will come out of that looking at the Native peoples in our Province and hopefully can come up with some solution as to their self-government. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who was just talking I must compliment because of what the hon. member said about this hon. gentleman. He said, 'The hon. gentleman left that side to come over here because he could get more for his dist~ict'. I have to tell the hon. gentleman that is exactly what has happened. MR.

MORGAN: And you are doing well, right? MR. WARREN: That is happened. Chairman, No. 19 exactly what has I must say, Mr. I have a list that long Rl041

of things done in my distdct in the last two or three years. Mr. Chairman, I should tell the hon. gentleman that on May 19, in Nain, the hon. gentleman should come along, I think it is · going to be one of the biggest celebrations ever on the Labrador Coast. There is going to be the opening of a new $4.5 mi Ilion or close to $5 million school. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And you were involved i.n getting it, you know that. · MR. WARREN: Mr.

Chairman, I would say and I would say to the hon. gentleman, I remember my brochure that went out in the 1982 election, a red -and white one, as the hon. gent 1 eman has there on the table now. There was a little caption there saying, 'Warren backs Nain parents'.

But it sowed the seeds, and we will see in a couple of month's time, the fruit will be born. petition I say to if he Now to get back to the and what was said today, the hon. gentleman that believes what he said that he can get .more for his district, as I have done for mine, what is the hon. gentleman doing wasting his time in the House on · the other side? I mean, why does not the hon. gentleman - I will invite the han. gentleman to come over and join us, if you think MR. CALLAN: (Inaudible) . MR. MORGAN: Oh, oh, now wait, you are our friend, but watch what you .say now, do not go too far with it.

L1042 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. MITCHELL: That does not mean that we want all of them over here. MR. WARREN .: The hon. gentleman said you can get more things. MR. SIMMS: If you are not careful, we will send you back. MR. MITCHELL: You should watch your words and use them wisely. MR. WARREN: I am sure that there are some people in the district of Bellevue who would not like to see him over here either, you know, that , is in all fairness to the bon. gentleman. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MORGAN: We go.t a good man for the next e~ection up in Bellevue. MR.

WARREN: The bon. gentleman said in Bellevue - Thornlea area they voted strongly for the P.C. Party. . I can tell the hon. gentleman now, whenever the Premier decides to call the next election, and if the hon. gentleman is a candidate, I would venture to say, Sir, that it will his last election for a while. MR. MORGAN: Now if 'Leo' is leader, he will be. MR. WARREN: In fact, I notice his brochure there, he would not show the front of his brochure. On the front of that brochure it shows the hon . member and the - MR. MORGAN: No. 19 R1042

He is okay; he is 'Leo's' man. MR. WARREN: - member sitting next to him and he was going to be the Minister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Put 'Leo' in again, he will, yes. MR. WARREN: I should say, Mr. Chairman, I find it so difficult when my colleagues are talking all of the time. Mr. Chai~an, I would like for the bon. gentleman to be able to hear me. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! p MR. WARREN: I would like for the bon. gentle~an to hear what I am saying now. MR. MORGAN: He leaves the House. MR.

WARREN; By the way, I apologize to the House y~sterday if I said that the han. gentleman was invited to the meeting in the Minister's Office. If that is incorre-ct, I apologize to the House. But I understand, now I can be corrected on this one too, the bon. gentleman was invited to a meeting not too long ago out in the Bellevue-Thornlea area and I th1nk the response was the road was too bad. You know, if I was invited to a meeting in my district, I would go in a wheelbarrow in order to get there. My constituents were asking me to go there.

If the member was invited to a meeting and the road was so bad, - L1043 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. MORGAN: He was too busy knifing his leader then. · MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, if that- be the case -- I mean is the road too bad to go- down La the bottom of Colliers Bay Hill trouting? Is the road too bad to go flshing? I mean the road cannot be bad for everything? It is the same road, Mr. Chairman. The hon . gentleman says he does not ask to go to meetings. Mr. Chairman, I would not attend very many meetings if I only go when I am asked. That is when you find out what is going on in your district.

You have to be there and be ready for your constituents to ask you a question. In fact, I was pleased today to present that petition from the district of Bellevue and the people out there. In fact, they are calling me continuously. I should tell the bon. gentleman, and I a giving him advance notice, in fact, and my bon. colleague right here, within the next three weeks there is going to be another meeting in his dist _rict. . I have been asked to organize. I cannot help it. I am being asked to do it.

I have spoken to the minister and, at the appropriate time, there will be a meeting held with a group out there again. But I have to do this because I am asked to do it and I -wi 11 do it. I say to the han. gentleman that I will let the han. gentleman know in due course where the meeting is going to be held. Mr . Chairman, the Bellevue district upgraded. The roads from Pinware to Red No . 19 roads in have to be in Labrador Bay, in my R1043

colleague from Eagle River's district (Mr. · Hiscock) , has to be upgraded. I will do what I can as an elected representative of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to work with people anywhere who call me for help. You should see the record of the number of calls that I get from the district of Naskaupi. I would say, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect to that han. member, the present member there, that if there was an election called tomorrow and I ran in the district of Naskaupi, I would say that I could take care of the han. the member for Naskaupi. There are so many calls.

People are coming out wanting to campaign for me, and offering contributio~s to me to run in Naskaupi. But, Mr . Chairman, I am well contented where I am c·epresenting the district of Torngat Mountains and I will continue to represent them until they tell me they do not need me any ionger. MR. MORGAN: Will you support me in Bellevue when I run in the next election? · MR. WARREN: I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that if the han. member for Bona vista South (Mr. ·Morgan), who knows that he has satisfied the people of Bonavista South, decides to go in the district of Bellevue, and if .I can get the time out of my busy campaign schedule, I wi 11 be only too glad to go into the Thornlea, Long Cove, Norman's Cove, Arnold's Cove area and speak at a gathering for the bon. member to show ' that we are concerned about his district as well as any other district in the Province. MR. MORGAN: It is awfully tempting . Ll044 March 26, 1987 Vol XL MR. WARREN : I know my time is up, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to say to the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), I will do anything I can to assist the · member for Bellevue to get lhe work done in his district. To th e member for Bellevue I would also say, do not listen to. what some of the boys said on this side. It is not a long walk over here . Come on over. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN : Mr . Chairman , people around the Province from time to time wonder why the House of Assembly is open when there is so much foolishness going on.

It should not be necessary for us, here in the Legislature this afternoon to be spending, well, we have been an hour now on the roads in Bellevue and Thornlea. Of course, the member for Bonavista South got up and talked about all of the things that he got for Bonavista South since he has been a member. The member for Torngat Mountains, who just sat down, gave credence to my arguments earlier when he admitted; Mr.

Chairman, in his comments, that he could not get anything as an Opposition member. 1 am sure that the member for Torngat worked just as hard and lobbied just as hard on behalf of his district when he was in Opposition as he does on the government side. He must be admitting that he just did not change his work habits o_vernight, did nothing, tried to do nothing in Opposition, and then, all of a sudden, went on the government No. 19 R1044

benches and started working hard. I know the member for Torngat Mountains, Mr. Chairman. I sat besi .de him on this side of the Legislature and I know how hard he worked. I know how many times he got up in this Legislature and condemned the government for its callous attitude towards the way it treats people in Opposition distdcts. He did it when he was here in Opposition. By admitting today that he has got a lot of money and a lot · of projects completed in his district since he crossed the House, he is giving credence, he is saying to me, Hr.

Chairman, and he is saying to everybody here that, 'You are right, no matter how hard you work as an Opposition mem~er, you probably will not get anything because tl1e government on the opposite side of this Legislature is dictatorial, it is undemocratic, and, of course, it spen~s money for government memb~rs at· the expense of people who support the government, by ·the way, in Liberal districts.' I mean, it is not the fault of the people in . Thornlea and Bellevue and ·Markland that the maj ori t.y _of people in Bellevue decided to elect me. I should not have to apologize, Mr.

Chairman, for being elected to this Legislature, and neither should the 3,030 people who elected me, have to apologize that they sent me to the Opposition rather than in government. It was just unfortunate that the twenty-eight hundred and something P.C. voters, there were not quite as many as there were Liberal voters. The NDP had 613 votes in the next election. I should not have to apologize because I am in the Opposition. Ll045 March 26, 1987 Vol XL You see, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister of Transportation were in his seat - I was going to ask it yesterday in Question Period; I was going to ask it today.

I will ask it now, Mr. Chairman. If the Minister of Transportation has got the intestinal fortitude, if he has the guts, to say to me, as the · member for Bellevue, which wo1.1ld be democratic, in May or june, after the budget comes down, 'Look, I have allocated ft·om the Department of Transportation for the district of Bellevue, thirty-five communities, $2 million. Now, you, as the member, decide where you want to spend it, whether you want to spend it in Markland or Bellevue, Thornlea, Hillview, Heart's East, Hodges · Cove, or wherever, ' it would be a democratic process. If the minister, Mr.

Chairman, is democratic enough and if he has got the intestinal fortitude to do that, which I have been asking for for years and years -· 1 remember, Mr. Chairman, seven or eight years ago I was down in St. Jones Within. I was in a gentleman's house and they were talking about the. mess their roads were in. He said to me, 'Why are you treating us so unfairly, down in St.

Jones Within?' · He said, 'Every bit of money that you get for your district for highways you are spending it on your own end, up where you live.' I said to the gentleman, 'I do not get . any money.' 'Oh yes,' he said, ' you know damn we 11 you do. Every member gets so much mone ·y from the Department of Municipal Affairs, $2 million or $3 million and the member decides if he wants to put water and sewer in Norman's Cove or Whitbourne or Arnold's Cove or Sunnyside.' I said, 'No, it is not done like No. 19 R1045

that.' It should be like that. I said, 'That is · how it is done in Ottawa. Dave Rooney gets so many milliqns of dollars 'fa~ LIP programmes. So does John Crosbie, even though he is in the Opposition,' or he was at the time. I said, 'That is democracy. That is how it should be.' The gentleman would not believe me. It was seven o~ eight years ago, Mr. Chairman.

I said to the gentleman, 'You will not believe me?' He said, 'Boy, no I cannot believe you.' He looked me st~aight in the face and he said, 'I cannot believe you. ' I said to him, 'Will you listen to Open Line tomorrow morning?' Bas Jamieson was the popular show at the tlme.

I said, 'I am going to phone Bas Jamieson tomorrow morning on his open · line show · and I am -going to tell Bas Jamieson, · publicly, on the public airways.' I · said, 'Would you listen and would you believe it then?' He said, 'Well, yes, I will listen.' The next morning I phoned Bas Jamieson on Open Line · - the Minister of Transportation at the time, Your Honour, was Bill Doody who is now a senato~ in Ottawa - and I. told him.

I said, ' Bas, I want to get this on the. public airways so that people anywhere in the Province will know that what I am saying is true, that I am not given money and I decide, as the member, where to spend it on ~oads or water and sewer or any other number of things.' A week later, Mr. Chairman, I had that gentleman from St. Jones Within and a committee from Hil-lview, -Hatchet Cove and St. Jones Within come in and I organized a meeting with the Minister of Transportation. It was one afternoon about 5:00p.m., when the Legislature was open.

I L1046 March 26, 1987 Vol XL left the Legislature and Bi 11 Doody, the then Minister of Transportation left the Legislature, and we met the Committee in a room on the other side of the .Legislature. When we went into the meeting I looked at the gentleman from st. Jones Within and I said, 'Before we start the meeting, Mr. Doody, I want to ask you a questi6n because somebody here wants a answer.' I said, 'Mr.

Doody will you tell this gentleman that I as an Opposition membe~ am not given any money from you~ department, say a block of money, $2 million, $3 million, whateve~ . it happens to be, and I, as the membe~, decide whethe~ I -will put it in Hodge's Cove or Hillview or Bellevue o~ Markland and so on?' Mr. Doody said~ 'No. You are right. It is not done like that. ' I looked at -the gentleman f~om St. Jones Within and fa~ the third time I said, 'Do you believe it now?' I to .ld him in his home, in St.

Jones, and he did not believe ·it, I phoned Open Line and he still did not believe it, so I looked at him and I said, 'Do you believe it now?' 'Well,' he said, 'I have to believe it now the minister just admitted it. ·' I said, 'Well, Sir, that is how it is.' Mr. Chairman, I tell that little story to get across the point that it is hard to make people believe certain things, especially when you have half t~uths coming from someone like the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) or the membe~ for Bonavista · South (Mr. Morgan), who spoke earlier in this debate this afte~noon.

I mean, the member fa~ Torngat Mountains, M~. Chairman, got very, very low and very personal. I did not expect that f~om him, as a matter of fact. He said that I was invited . to a meeting over in No. 19 R1046

Thornlea or Bellevue a couple of months ago and I did not go because the weather was bad. I cannot remember what it was about. I cannot remember being in vi ted. I was over to t.he town of Bellevue as guest speaker at a fireman's ball a couple of months ago. I was invited and I went along and I was glad to do it. If I am invited to · Bellevue or Thornlea tonight, or next month or any time at all, I will go and be glad to do it. What insidious nonsense those two gentlemen went on with there this afternoon.

The member for Torngat Mountains talked about how he is going to run in Bellevue next time, and he can run in Naskaupi. When he was on this side of the House, Mr. Chairman, if he wants to get personal, I can tell you that almost on a daily basis he was telling me how he would love to run against Bill Patterson next time - 'I would love to run in Placentia against that man the next time. ' Now he is on that side of the House and he is playing the same silly games. He talked about me not being able to at .tend a meeting in Thornlea or Bellevue but I can get over to Bottom to go .trouting. Mr.

Chairman, that is what you would expect, that sort of nonsense, from some of the scum who worked with Bas Jamieson in the last election and the one before that, you would expect that from some of the scum who went around campaigning for him, but they did not say it before my face, they said it behind my back and other things as well. Mr. Chairman, I was almost ready to lay charges for defamation of character.

That was some o_f the trash that ' went on in the last election, but you would not expect the member for Torngat to get up Ll047 March 26, 1987 Vol XL and · talk Legislature. to aottom about it in the I have not been over for months. In the Spring of the year I sometimes go over there, Mr. Chair-man, _but the difference between me and the member for Bonavista South is t will g.o over lhere after l leave St. John's. After a day's work is done I will go over there, at. 7:00 or 8:00p.m., or when it gets dark at 9:00 p.m., and I will spend a couple o·f hour-s there and then come home.

Or I will go over­ early in the morning befor-e I come to St. John's, before my day's work starts. But the member for Bonavista South goes away on fishing trips and the. only time the gener-al public knows about it is when he is brought up on charges of illegal fishing. The member for Tor-ngat Mountains, Mr. Chairman, has lots of holidays, too, at taxpayers' expense. The few trout I get, Mr. Chairman, I get at my own expense, an4 it is low for anybody to mention that in . the Legislature. Mr. Chairman, when I met with the committee upstairs yesterday afternoon they put several questions to me.

I told them, 'Members of the House work in different ways.' I said, 'I know there are members who look at the obituary column to see if someone died in their districts, someone they have never met, and they send out letters of sympathy.' I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) told me - if he wants to get personal, I will, too, laughingly, by the way, how he visits constituents who are in hospital in st. John's. He only has six communities, I . have thirty-five, so he does not have very many in hospital in ·st. John's anyway. No. 19 R1047

He also told me how he went down to the Health Sciences Complex a few years ago to visit a · constituent, _and when he got home he wrote a letter to the gentleman's brother e~laining, 'I went down to see your b~other last night. He is fine. He is coming along fine. Laughingly the member for Torngat Mountains told me that by the time the brother down in Labrador got the letter f~om the member for Torngat Mountains, his brother who had been in the Health Sciences Complex was dead, brought home, and was buried. He told that laughingly. He thought it was a great bit of fun. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the foolish nonse~se that went on here this afternoon and the foolish allegations - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. member's time is up. MR. CALLAN: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to advise all bon. members that there are no questions for the Late Show. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to say a few words in the debate on Interim _Supply. I have listened to the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) so frequently today that it forced L1048 March 26, 1987 Vol XL me to get up and say a few words. I really had not planned to speak this afternoon. But I get the impression that the han. the member for Bellevue is protesting just a little bit too much and making a little bit too much out of what t.ranspired hc['e in t.he last day or two with respect t.o a petition. MR. CALLAN: Now; my friend, did you hear what I said? MR. SIMMS: Now, the han. the member for Bellevue spent half of his ten minutes speaking .time criticizing members over on this side for interrupting, then he immediately interrupts me. Mr.

Chairman, the member for Bellevue, as I said, is protesting just a little bit too much. I mean, he uses al~ kinds of rhetoric to try to defend his position. I suppose he is entitled to do that, he really does not have too much choice, I guess. However, to take the approach and the tack that he has is, I suggest to him, a grave, grave mistake. He suggests that because . he is in Opposition he cannot get anything done. That is what he suggests. Now, that is what the han. member suggested, 'because I am in Opposition, I cannot get anything done.' Well, Mr.

Chairman, I just want to remind members of the House that just a few days ago I had the opportunity to announce in this House a number of forestry projects that were approved - job creation, job _development projects .- The member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert), who · ·sits in Opposition, had - I do not know what it was - $350,000 worth No. 19 R1048

of job development projects in forestry approved. He is in Opposition. The member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush)~ who sits to the han. member's right, had a forestry pr"oject appr"oved in Bonavtsta Nor"th. That is an Opposition district. In fact, my old nemesis, the member for" Windsor" - Buchans (Mr. F~ight), had a forestry project, or two perhaps, I just forget now, approved for his district. He sits in the Opposition, So, Mr. Chairman, that kind of logic really is not a good argument for the hon. member to make. Further to that, I just happened to glance at the han. member's brochure that he used in the 1985 general election, and the first

part I must refer to where he said, 'As the new Minister of Transportation in a Liberal Government, after" April 2, the district of Bellevue,will enjoy the pr"ivilege of not only being able to talk to me personally' . - as if to say they never were able to do that before - 'but you will do so in the full knowledge that I can and will do something about your problems.' Now, that is the commit~ent he gave to the people. But he is not the Minister of Tr"ansportation . He indicated to them that he would be, but he is not. MR. MORGAN: That was if there was a Liberal government. MR. SIMMS: Oh, I see.

So that is a little bit of a play on words. How about this, then? 'Since I was elected in 1975, many positive things have happened in my district.' How could that be, Mr. Chairman? He just finished saying L104Cl March 26, 1987 Vol XL that because he is in Opposition, he cannot get anything done in his district. In fact, ·he goes on to say here that 'roads had been paved.' Ah, ha! -roads have been paved. Now, he certainly has given me the impression, si U . ing here · listening to him all afternoon, that he cannot get things like roads paved in his district because he is in the Opposition. MR.

CALLAN: No, I did not say that, Sir. MR. SIMMS: Now, that is impression the Bellevue left. certainly the bon. member for I do not think I am misinterpreting what he said. I think that is the impression he left. But he had raods paved since he been the member in • 75, twelve years age, by the way. 'Garden Cove Road, 5 miles; Old Shop, 4 miles; Come By Chance 3. 5 miles; North Harbour, 5 miles; Sout~west ~rm. 7 miles.' Now, Mr. Chairman, if he was able to get these roads paved as a member of the Opposition over a number of years - MR. YOUNG: His is Penalizing them because they voted Tor"y. MR.

SIMMS: If my colleague here w:lll restrain his excitement and - give me an opportunity to make the point, if the han. member for Bellevue could get all these other roads _ paved while in Opposition, why has he not been able to get the road paved for the people of Thor"nlea? MR. CALLAN: They will be paved. MR. SIMMS: Oh, I see. But the han. member _ No. 19 Rl049

has been protesting here for the last hour saying he cannot get it done, "I am in Opposition". Now he says he can get it done. I wonder, just for one little minute now, if I· might think out loud, Mr. Chairman? I just want to think out loud. There may not be any truth to it at all, bu·t I do want to make this obser·vation. I do not want to say it, but it has been suggested to me that maybe - Oh, my God, what an impressive

article in The Evening Telegram. I commend it to the reading of my colleague from Bellevue. I wonder if the bon. the member for Bellevue now knows something which I only found out yesterday, by the way, that in that particular poll there 'was 180 votes cast, or whatever it was - MR. YOUNG: One hundred and seventy-two. MR. SIMMS: One hundred and seventy-two.. and 168 of those 172 votes were PC votes, therefore, there were only 4 Liberal votes. AN HON. MEMBER: Where is that? MR. SIMMS: This is the poll in the area that we are talking about, where the petition is being presented from, the Bellevue area.

Now, somebody has suggested to me, ·and I would not want it to be true - I am sure it is not - but I want to throw it out anyway because I am thinking. out loud, that the bon. the member .for Bellevue is sort of turning his back, or turning his nose away from the people of that area because they so overwhelmingly voted against him? MR. MORGAN: No, he wbuld not do that. That LlOSO March 26, 1987 Vol XL would be playing politics. MR. SIMMS: It was just suggested to me that I throw it out. Hon. members over here do not believe that that i~ possible. Well, it may very well be the case. l hope it is nol.

Because if that were true and possible, then the han. member would be hypocritical in his comments. He would not be a hypocrite, but his comments would be hypocritical because he is suggesting that we are doing the same thing on this side for the exact opposite reason. I see the han. member over there saying, "No, that is not true." Well, I am glad to hear that.

I am sure the people of the Bellevue area will be pleased to hear it, . and I ,am sure their confidence has been restored in the member in that he does not play politics in that sense, and he does not give the people of that area slrong representation simply because they voted against him in the last election .. Anyway, Mr.

Chairman, only wanted to stand to couple of observations really think that the I really make those because I committee who were here yesterday, some of whom are still around ·today I understand, who made the presentation with respect to the improvements needed on their roads in their area, the Bellevue area, and did it l:.hrough the member for Torngat Mountains - . there is nothing wrong with that. As The Evening Telegram so correctly pointed out in their coverage of the story today, there is nothing unusual at all about members in this House presenting petitions from other districts.

In fact, members opposite have done it frequently over the years. : I No. 19 RlOSO

venture to suggest that if you read through Hansard you would find many precedents for that. So that is nothing unusual about that. Hopefully, the member for Torngat Mountains, because of his consistent and persistent efforts on behalf of the people in the area, which he is very familiar with, and where he said he has his grass roots he lost the grass but kept the roots - will be successful in his . efforts in supporting this petition and presenting it on behalf of the people.

Now, I know the member for Bellevue over there is itching and biting to get up again and sort of tear down· everything I have said, but I hasten to add to what I have already said, b"efor-e the hon. member- gets up, and caution him that what I have said is fact, I have taken it right str-aight from his brochure . The onlY. thing I said that was not a fact was something that I alluded to in thinking out loud, which was mentioned by other people but which members on this side loudly - ever-ybody heard it - was not the proper thought and that the hon. member was not playing politics himself.

I think the bon . member has protested enough today. I am sure he has made his point. We ar-e talking about an Inter-im Supply Bill here that covers something like seven hundr-ed-odd million dollars. Now, tomorr-ow, if we are tt"ying to push to get the Interim Supply Bill through befo re the end of the fiscal year so that we can get cheques issued to public employees and all that, somebody over on that side, per-haps the finance critic, the member for Bonavista Nor-th (Mr-. Lush), will get up and say, 'They ar-e trying to ram it down our LlOSl Mar-ch 26, 1987 . Vol XL thr-oats .

They have not given us enough time to debate it.' Yet today, with all due respect, we have spent the entire day debating this one issue which has become a bit of a personality issue, almost, more than anything else . So with those few general remarks, Mr. Chairman, as a

preamble, I will now get into the meat of what I want to say . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member's time is up. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr- . Chai~an . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chai~an . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN : . Mr. Chairman, I have no problem responding to the comments made by the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Sinws) who is lucky to be here, by the way ·- he lost the election in the night, and the next morning he had it won again by so many votes; a bunch of students at the university elected him but the people of Grand Falls voted against him.

Anyway, t have no trouble in responding to · the ho"n . gentleman. Referring to the brochure that I put out in the last election, all I said was, ·'Since I was first elected on September 16, 1975, many positive things have happened. ' I did not say I got pavement for those places, I said, 'many positive things have happened .' And I can explain ever-y . mile of these roads. Let me just give you an example, Mr-. Chai~an. How did these people ge~ the five miles for Garden Cove and the five · miles for North No. 19 Rl051

Harbour, which is down towards the Burin Peninsula? Did I get it for them? The minister at the time was the hon. James Morgan. How did the people get ten miles of pavement down there that Summer? I did not say, 'I take credit for it.' 1 will tell you how they got it and it will just take a minute. The hon . Don Jamieson was in Ottawa and the · hon. Fr'ank Moores was Premier. The hon. Frank Moores went to Ottawa and got several hundred million dollars for' the Province, and as an aside Don Jamieson said, 'By the way, Frank, there are a couple of r'oads in my feder'al riding, in Garden Cove and North Harbour.

They happen · to be in the Bellevue district, · which is within the federal riding of Burin - St. George's, is· there any chance of getting those paved after the hundreds of millions I have given you as Premier? Frank came back, good man that . he was unfortunately, he did not . consult his Minister of Highways at that time, the hon. James Morgan. I had a phone call fr'om Ottawa saying, 'By the way, the roads in Garden Cove and North Harbour are going to be paved. The han. Don Jamieson has arranged it. I brought it up in the Legislatur'e, Mr. Chairman, and the member' for' Bonavista - South (Mr.

Morgan) was going to cancel the contract. MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR •. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A point of order, the han. the memer for Bonavista - South. MR. MORGAN: Mr . Chairman, I rose as into the House. I was Common Room making some L1052 March 26 ,. 1987 I came in the phone Vol XL · calls and in the midst of my conversation I heard what I would call very low-down comments from the member for Bellevue in connection with my activities as an individual. The han. gentleman is quite aware that he r-efen·ed to my fishing trips and rny chargE~s .

The fact is, I have been vindicated quite clearly by the courts of this Province arid I am innocent of any charges. Now, if he wants to elaborate what he knows about my charges and what took place in the Liberal Party involving my charges, then I would call upon him to elaborate. Because some of his colleagues know about it. Maybe he was not involved, but if he is aware of it, I would like him to tell the House all about it: AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) gave him no fish. MR. MORGAN: No, it is a serious matter . The han. gentleman is quite aware that .although I was charged, I was found innocent by the courts.

I have no charges hanging over my head of any type. In fact, I was not worried throughout the whole thing, and neither were the people of Bonavista South : But to refer to it now as if I am still guilty of something - MR. CALLAN : No, no. That is not so. MR. MORGAN: Well,· the hon. gentleman made that slur. That kind of slur is r'eally low-down dirt on the par't of the gentleman for Bellevue. He is a fine man. I respect him. He is a fine fellow. I have always said that. But that kind of thing is really uncalled for, because I was cleared by the courts. I was innocent · from day one, and No. 19 R1052

eventually declared innocent by the courts. And . to refer back to it now, trying to leave innuendo about my fishing trips and my charges,. that is pure dirt on the part of the bon. gentleman. I would like for hjm Lo be a gentleman when he stands up and withdraw the remarks he made. MR. CALLAN: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I can deal with the matter easily. I mean, anybody can look at it in Hansard tomorrow.

I was talking about the low remarks made by the member for Torngat Mountains, and I was talking about how I go fishing at night after my day's work is over, or early in th~ morning before my day's work starts. I said, ~ 'Compare my fishing trips with han. t_he gentlemen's. I said, 'For example, how many trips does the member for Torngat take, fishing trips or whatever, sometimes compliments of the taxpayers?' I said, 'Cabinet Ministers, like the member for Bonavista South, ·go on trips as well. Do people in their districts criticize them for going on trips?

You .would not know about them unless they got caught on a charge. ' · That is all I was saying, 'He goes on lots qf trips, as well, but people do not know them unless they come to public attention.' I know, Mr. Chairman, that the minister was found not guilty of those charges, and I was not suggesting that he is . still guilty. I was not suggesting a!ly L1053 March 26, 1987 Vol XL nonsense. MR. MORGAN: Furt .her to that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further the hon. South. to that point of order, the nwmber for Bonavisla MR. MORGAN: The han. gentleman just used the term, 'I got caught with something' .

I got caught with nothing. I was innocent. Do not go making these kinds of innuendos and slurs anymore. I went through enough of that nonsense for almost a- year and a half. I am not going to tolerate th