1 Volume XL Monday ~ ~ - Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas ' Number 59 20 June 1988

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McN ·icholas): Order, please! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of thE! Opposition . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I I.Uould ask the M·in·ister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle) or the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Dav.Je), sincE! both have signed that dastardly agreement that was signed today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! SOMF.: liON. · MEMB F:: RS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the 1.1.Jhichever rn:i.nister is disposed to answer - and I do not know, I will let them decide - in view of the complete about-face, by the Premier and the government, with respect to Newfoundland's entitlement in terms of transportation, and in view of the abandonment by the Government of Canada of its constitutional obligation, and the complete sell-out by the Newfoundland Government - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!i''r! L3206 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR. WELLS: of our constitutional rights, Mr. :3pe:~aker'.

I ask wh:Lchever minister is going to answer how does thE:~ governrnE!I'lt propose to take on the responsibility of providlng transportation services to this Province in the future when thE:~Y havH to close hospital beds and have to get children out 1.uorking to provide chaulk For schools, how do ·they propos c~ to fund the transportation sys"\:.l:!m in those circumstances? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker', I think it is obvious from the:~ serie~> of qUE!st:ions. which started off on the ra:i.J.way and got .i.nto hosp:i.

L:a1 beds, that the Opposition are attempting to distance themselues from this particular agreement because it is s o p o s it: .i. tJ e . SOME HON. MEMBERS : He<:'lr, hE:'i'.lr! MR. DAWE: Members opposite l.o~Jould not 1.o~d.sh t.o be connected with anything that is positive, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition refE!rs to th~:! constitutional obligations and the constitutional d.ghts that we hi:"lVE! under the Terms of Union. The very same mE•rnber, Mr.

SpeakE!r, when he was a member of a former administration sitting on this side of the Legislature, was quite willing not to try and inf1UE!nCC:' his colleagues at that time with all these constitutional arguments. When the ove:'r a Speaker, r'E!IrJOIJBd Highway No . 59 railway was downgraded ser.i.es of year's. M1~ . the passenger train was and the Trans-Canada buiJ.t, I do not SE!E! R3206

anything with regard maintenance agreements in particular arrangement. to that And, Mr . Speaker, I do not see a particular maintenance arrangement associated with the removal of the train service for Argenl:ia in place of a road, roads that we have, Mr. Speaker, through successive agreements with the FedE!ral govE!rnment, being able to negotiate cost-shared agreements 1:: o r e cons t r· u c t t h .i. s p .i. o et:! of highway that was built in the rn"ld --1960s, to recons l:ruct i.t, Mr.

Speaker, be cause it lJJas built in hasl:E: 1, it l}.Jas buoi.ld on cost ·-·plus, it was built without public tE!nder·ing, dnd :it l~Jas bwL 1 t in a manner, Mr. Speaker, that the people of this Province and the people of Canada are continuing to have to pay for because of the incompetent way that they negotiated that arrangement. Mr. Speaker, this particular agreement and this particular action that has been taken by the Government of Canada and this Province, is one that as Newfoundlanders we can be proud of, we can be very supportive of, because, Mr.

Speaker, at this part-icular point in time, it addresses the twenty-first century, including renegotiation, something that the hon. member ls not fam :il.i.ar with. If WE! had a r·enegotiation clause after eight yoars in the Churchill Falls contract, IJJe WOlJld not be in the kind of mess we are in today . SOME HON. MF.MBERS : Hear·, hear! MR. WELLS: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. L3207 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the minister if there are no constitutional obligations, why does the agreement which he himself signE!d this morning say that it is in satisfaction of Canada 1 s constitutional obligations with respect to thE! raiJ.way if they do not exi.st? Why i.s he abandoning it? SOME HON. MEMBERS ; I· I(~ r'l. r, hear· ! MR. DAWE : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Mini ster of In ·tergovernmental Affair's. MR. DAWE : At the beginning of this session the leader of the Opposition tried this samE:1 tactic.

Of course, as was pointed out, his own legal advice must have been at the t.irne that other arrangE!Tnents dE!<'l1ing with phasing out and changes in thE! transportation systE!m :i.n t.hts Province must have been that there was no constitutional obligation as it relates to the railway in this Province. There is a constitutiona1 obligation, as is stated in this, to take over· and absorb all the co sts ass ociated with the Newfoundland Railway. Th.i.s particuJ.ar clause;! in the agreemE!nt says that; obviously you cH'e not going to haut1 !::hE:' r•i::~i1lAJay, it has served its usefulness through the yec.::~rs .

As lAJe1l, Mr. Speaker, I might point out that ra:LllAJays across Canada have reduced from about 70 to 75 percent of the marketplace down to less than 20 percent, which is what has happened in this Province. There is nothing happening to . the raillAJay in this Province different than is No. 59 R320'7

happening right across the country. The only difference, Mr·.

Speaker, is even though the federal government did noL hetV(~ a constitutional obligation to compensate or to provide transportation infrastructure beyond li.Jha l: they were doing, they had every righ·t in the world, as i.s stat.::~d in the Tt:H'rns of Union, for the railway to run out its existence ovt:~r the next three to five years, so there would not be any special compensatioM for ernployeE!S, there would not be any special compensation for the communities most affected, there would not be any infrastructure expenditures for the highways in this Province, thcC!re IAJOuld not be any of that.

They could have easily let it go its natural course, but they did not do that, they took a responsibile attitude. This particular administration was successFul in negotiating what is, Mr. Speaker, the best, the largest trans~ortation package ever negotiated in this country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WEL.LS: A Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: r.llr. Speaker, I ask the minister does the government realize that it was the provision of transportation that made this country, as it was then, bankrupt in 1934?

Fifty per cent of the debt which put us bankrupt in 1934 was due to transportation. Did the government consider this and did the government consider what the provision of transportation L3208 June 20, 1.988 Vol XL services in this Province will cost the government in the future, and that it IA.Ii 11 put us bankrupt again if this der.1.l goes t-hrough? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE~KER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, my collr:~ague is chomping at the bit to answer ·these questions as IAJel.l, and 1 a.m surE! he will have an opportunity as Question Period progresses. The Leader of the Opposition, I understand, during the week has been trying to develop some kind of an argument to say that thE!rE! is no pr·ovis-Lon i.n this agreement for ongoing maintenance, like snowclearing and grading and the kinds of day-to-day activities thaL go on with maintaining a transportation system. I would just like i:o point out, Mr .

Speaker, that one of our biggest problems in this Province with regard to our provincial constitutional righl to maintain highways, which is a provincial rE:~sponsibiJ.ity, is exaggerated and compounded and made more difficult by the fact that our whole highway infr·astructurE! is inadequatE!, and because oF those inadequacies of dirt roads, of winding roads, of road improperly graded, -.it. :is very, very onerous on this Province to maintain these roads. What this agre(:HT1E!I1t IJ..Iill do, Mr.

Speaker - it will not add significantly to the numbers of miles of road; as a matter of fact new roads to be built are very negligible - is begin a process that will upgrade and pave the roads in this Province to bring us No. 59 rn2os '

up to what will be a national standard, Mr. Speaker, far beyond what is realized in the rest of Atlantic Canada. We t.~lill have the best road system in Atlantic Canada and 1.1.Jil.l be on a par nationalJ.y. The mot"E! you improve the roads, the more roads you have paved, the better the a1ignmE!I1t of the roads, the rnor10:1 efficient thE! whole maintE!nance pt"ogram becomes. As a ma 1:: l:E:1r of th:l s agreemE:Hlt ma :in 1: E:1n an c (,1 , dC:1creases thE! this ProvinCE!. fact, Mr. Spr:1akc,1r, does not increase but:. dramatLcally maintenance cost to SOMI: HON. MEMBF.RS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speakr:1r.

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Mount Scio -Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, thr:1 Premier, I wonder strategy by the distance himself announcement? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hr:1ar! MR. BARRY: the absence of if this is Premier a to this from It shows somethi.ng less than courtesy to this House and to the Province that the Premier would not be here when there is an announc(~mr:1nt of tlri.s magnitude being made for thE! Province. But in his rlbsence, I ask does the M:i nister of Transportation agree, Mr.

Sp(:1rlker, IAJi.th l:he s l:rltemeni: of his predecessor, the member who l.~o.Jas jusl: sp(,1aki.ng, made on Octobl':1r 31, 1980, when he expressed his extreme disappointment and L3209 June 20, 1988 Uol XL frustration over the fact that while Western Canada was being promised at that time $40 million for the upgrading of their railway system, Newfoundland was being forced to make a choice between the railway and the Trans-Canada HightJJay, both of iJ..Jhich, he said, is· our right as well as that of any province in Canada? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minist(~l" of Transportat:i.on.

MR. DOYLE: Fir·st of all, 1'VIr. SpE:1clkt':!r, I IAJouJ.d like to explain IJ.JhE:1re thE:1 PrE:11Tlier is today. Afl:l':1r tJJe lE:1Ft: t:he Radisson Hotel the PrE!mier had 'i:o go to the Investment Dealers of Canada, who have their convention on today, and the Premier 1Ali11 be here when time pE!rmits, Mt". Speaker. But first of all I would like say, as my colleague did a few minutes ago, that this is indE!ed a great day for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H(;!ar, h(,1ar! MR. DOYLE: We hc:we tode~y, and let nobody mistake it, Mr.

Speake!", s:i.gnE!d a great deal for the Prov1nce of Newfoundland and Labradot" which 1.1J:l.ll tal<(~ our p€:10plE:1 into !:he Twentieth-First Century with a good, efficiGnt transportation system. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: No. 59 R3209

Now, Mr. Speaker, to specif'ical.l.y address the question that the han. member asked wii:h r·e:~spec-1:. to l·:he comments made by my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs some years ago, as the han. member should know times change . I remember when he was on l:hi s sidl':~ of I.: he House, notAJ h(,~ "i. s over there on that side, so times change, Mr. SpectkE!r'. And t"i .tTIC:!S h a v e c hang e d to t he ext E! n t wit h respect to Newfoundland 1s railway that right now Newfoundland 1s railtAJay only has 20 per C(.;!nt. of the freight in Newfoundland and Labrador.

That is ·their share of thE! mark E! t , 2 0 per cent . It is forecast next ye?'lr to go down to approximately 9 per cent or 10 per cent. The Newfoundland RailtAJay would h~ve died a natural death anyway, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Then we would not have had the opportunity to negotiate a deal with the fedE!r 'al governrnE:~n l:. They could have said to us when that day arr·ived, 1 We do nol.:: have to negotiate with you, the Newfoundlr:-lnd RailtAJay i.s dectd. 1 We as a government did not want to SEH,~ that happl':~n, Mr.

Spectker·, c\nd we took the initiative, we took s'l:l::~ps to ensur'E! that IAJE! got a good deal before that happened . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hl':~ar! MR. BARRY : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for Mount Scio -Bell Island . MR. BARRY : 1'11Jr . Speaker, that response is like L3210 June 20, 1988 Vol XL starving a person to death and then asking for his funeral cost b e c i.'l u s c h ~~ :i. s g o t n g t o b e d e ad i n a day anyhow. Mr. SpeakE:~r, I IAJould ask the Min·istor of Transportation whether he agrees with the conclusions of 1.: h e:~ S 11l. 1 :i. v a n R o y a 1.

C o rmn i. s s i o n , whE:~re it said that by thE! letter 1.1.1hich Pr· i mc~ Minis tc;!r Si:.·-·l..atH'E!nt signed prior to the Terms of Union that the operation of the Newfoundland Railway and Coastal Service were placed on the same footing, for all practical purposE>.s. as the operat .ion of the Gulf ServicE!? If, in fact, that is the case, Mr.

Speaker, if the railway and the Gulf fE!rry system are on the same footing, as the Sullivan Royal Commission found, what is to keep members on that side, in conjunction with their Tory friends in Ottawa, from selling us out with respect to the Gulf ferry and having the responsibility for the cost of the Gulf fE!rry c~nd up on Uds Pr·ovince as well? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h(-?.ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minis tE!r of Transportation . MR. DOYLE : Mr .

Speaker, the Gulf FE!rry service is protected under the Terms of Union, and all thE! bE!St legal advice that. 1.1.1e have Lell us that it is protected under the Terms of Union. The rail service itself is not protected. The only thing that the Government of Canada had to do under Term 31 of the Terms of Union back in 1949 was to take over· the service and reli .etJe Newfoundland of the public cost incurred with respect to that service . No. 59 R3210

Mr. Speaker, t.a.Ji.th respect to the Gulf ferry service, we are protected under the Terms of Union with Canada, that the Gulf ferry service will continue and it cannot be touched. MR. BARRY : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the U1tc~ rne~rnber for· Mount Sci.o Island. MR. BARRY: han. B~~ll.

Will the Minister of Transportation explain to this House how the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are go:Lng l·:o be-:! relieved of the publ.Jc cost of the railway if in fifteen yC:~ars time Uwre is no mor'E:1 money 1 eft from this payment, but the cost of thai: fre-i.ght, t.he:~ ra.i.l.t~.Jay freight that you are wiping out, is dumped onto the highway system, which it is then going to be the re:1sponsibil.ity of l::his Pr·ov:i.nce to pay for? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, LIJhat most members fail to realize is that CN is not leaving the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is the rail service that is being shut down. We have a guarantee from CN that they will now implement an intermodal service in the Province of Newfoundland. With respect to the amount of traff-i.c that i.s goi.ng to be on the Trans-Canada Highway in Netufoundland, 1.ue have done surtJeys on that, Mr.

Speaker, over the 1 a s 1:: n urn b E! r o f m o n t h s , '" n d h o n . members 1.uj.ll be very surprised to hear that as a result of the L3211 June 20, 1988 Vol XL closing down of the Newfoundland Railway we will not have any more than four l:een tractor-tra~ilers per day more travelling between Port aux Basques and St. John 1 s.

These are surveys that have been done by my department, and it. is an in disputable fact that there w:i.Jl not be any mor•e t.han four·b::•en tractor-trailers per day on Newfoundland's highways, simply because, now that thE! ra:.i.l SE!rViCE! is shut doi.IJn, thE!r·e t~d.ll b(;! ot:I·H:.~r alternatives that can be used, likE:1 the uJat.er modE~ IAlh·ich t.o~d.ll take freight directly into St. John's, Argentia. and Corner Brook, to replace the existing r· a .i.l s e r· l) ·i. c (~! . And t: he F r· E! i g h l:: that uJiJ.l go by truck will bE• to the turH~ of about .: fourt·.E!E!n tractor trailers more per day.

So there will JncreasE~ i.n tho travelling on HighiJJCIY . MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : be no significant amount of traffic the Trans-Canada The hon. the member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I j u s t ~w a r· d t h E:1 m i n i s t e r t a 1 k "i n g about the fourteen trucks a day. Statistically there IJ.Jas a study done one b.me that said thE!rE! was a gas station on the 401 every five miles, but a fellow who ran ou+.: of gas had l:o t.o~lalk f:i.ft.y rniles to a gas station.

What he is talking about is when he pul:s a IAlhar· f in Gander to take car·e of this traffic that is comJng :i. 11 . This question was originally for No. 59 R3211

!. the Premier. The opening of the Premier 1 s statement this mornirig said that his government was taking responsibility for providing a safe transportat"i .on systc:1m fo1~ this Pnwince. When hE! agreed to the Sep 1: . 1 cJ.osi.ng of th~1 r·aiJ.t~Jay, thus putting an addi i:i.onr.~l · 30 per·cenl~ 1nor·e trucking transports on roads c o n s i. cl e r· e cl b y t ran s p o r t. r.1 L:i. o n experts to be 83 percent defective when compared to roads in other provinces in Canada , how can this be improving lhe safety of the highways in Newfoundland? SOME HON . MEMBERS: When did he say that? MR.

GILBERT: In the opening statements he talks he is going to put in a safe system. So how can this be considered a safe system? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE : Mr. Speaker, I suppose in that line that the han. mr:1mber just gave to the Ho.use there must be a questi.on somewhere, <:tl.though T di.d not detect what it was. Mr. Speaker, thi.s government, again I lAd.lJ. repeat, can be very, very proud of Lhe dectl that we have signed today for this Provtnc<"1.

It e:1nsures a complE!te transportation package for the whole Island of Nr:1wfoundland, not just one section, for the whole Province. It wi .ll be a $100 million extension to the present ERDA Agreement that we have, which will start up roads immediately. I tAJill be announcing, as a matter of fact, over the next couple of days, roads under l~.his extension to the ERDA package will go to L3212 June 20, 1988 Vol. XL tender right away to i:he tune of approximately $25 million. We got a new major $4.5 million Trans-Canada Highway Agreement to come on top of that existing agreement, and, Mr.

Speaker, a major netAJ secondary r·oads package of $235 million. It was this government IAJ~d.ch ensurc;!d t.hat. the workel~s of this Pr·ovince W€:'re 1 o o ked after , Mr· . S p ~~a k N' , lAr:i. l h a labour adjustment package of approximately $7S million, a community adjustmE!nt pr·ograrn which lAJill sc,1o Po1n ·t: au Sasqu~:!S and Bishop's Falls get roughly about $7 rnil1ion each to makE• up For • the impact that these communities might feel as a result of the closure of thE! railway, and a program of port improvements also . sa, Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is saying is just a rE!d her-r i n g .

We h a v e a good de a 1 f o r the people for Newfoundland and Labrador, a good, efficient transportation program which will take our people into the Twenty-First Century. MR. GILBERT : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, member fo;~ B1.1r9eo MR. GILBERT : the han. t:he - Bay d'F.:spo.ir. ThE~ rn·i.ni .ster· :i.s for·gE:1tt:.ing t:.hat the railway, u.Jhich now car-riE•s all the dangerous goods in this Province, is closing . NotJJ how can a highway that cannot carry the present traffic bE! expectE!d to handle the additional freight without putting the ljves of Newfoundlanders in jeopardy?

How can that be, sinCE! it. is going to take this dangerous freight as well? MR. SPEAKER: No. 59 R3 212

The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: I would like the member to repeat that question because I cannot hear what he is saying down here. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT : What I am saying is that the railway in this Province carries all o·f thE:~ dangerous frEdght, chemicals and the logs and all of that. You are now going Lo increase this traffic because the railway is now go"ing to clo se ds of September 1 . How can the b i.ghtAJclY system be E~Xp(-?.C b:~cl l:o accept the present traffic load ' and handle the adc:l-i.

U.onal fre -i.ght on a highway that is not safe at the prese:~nt time? MR. DOYLE : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Transportatton. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, should be aware Dangerous Goods of the best in matter of fact. the that Act:, the SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . DOYLE: Minister of hon. member we bave a new wbich is one world, as a We bave tr·ucks presently C('rrying dangerous goods from their point of (~ntry into the Provi.nce and we do not see this agreement in any way affecting that, Mr. Speaker.

We tAJilJ have a rnaj or, n<::1w upgraded h:i.ghtAli'IY syshHn and r. atn surtc' l::hose companies that now depend upon L3 213 June 20, 1988 Vol XL rail for the transportation of dangerous goods will be able to make that transition quite smoothly to the truck service when it is brought into operation. MR. GILBERT : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary. MR . GILBERT: I tAJill ask the~ Premier, now that: he is hE!re.

How can thE! .PrE!rrd.E!In claim t1-1a t th e' ag r·eemen t provides a safe highway system in this Province when the agreement he signE!d today is going to :lncrN~SE' the t~uck traffic on an already unsafe highway? How can hE• claim I·: hat . it. -Ls goin'd to :impr'O\Je~ sa ·r=-E!ty on the highway at this timE! when he has s:i.grH ~!d an dgre<::Hn E!nt today which is going to closE! out LhE· ra:i.]way and increase the traffic on the highway at present? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Prern:ier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, as I undE!r·stand :it, there is going to be $4.5 mi]J.ion spent on the Trans-Canada to improve it. MR. GILBERT : In fiue years time, ten years time. PREMIER PECKFORD: And we are going to be spending money on other roads around the Province to :improve the transportation system, and l:herefore thdt t,~.Ji ll make it safer for the trucks and cars and (,11Jerythi.ng els(~ to r·un on the highways of the Province . WE! are improving the highway system of the ProvinCE! . As no doubt somr:d:wdy hi.'ls alr t>ady mE :!nt i.OI'l E!d, the little bit of freight that now 1\Jo. 59 R3213

...:, travels on the railway is less than 20 per cent of the total freight volume that comes into the Province, and will only mean about fourteen trucks more a day on the highu.Ji!l.ys, and at the same timE! lAJc,~ a1"e spending upu.Jar·ds of $800 million to improve the hight..llay system. I cannot understand what t.ht~ hon. rnE!mbE!Y' .i.s t:al.k.i.ng about. Is $800 million go ing to improve the,~ highlAJdy sys Lom of 1\lE!lAJfollncJl. dnd or· is it not? If it is that m~~ans il· . "i.s go-Lny to bo sr.1for bt~ct: ·luse :Lt is going to be improving it .

I can no I~ u n d ('! r· s tan d lAJ h fl. t. 1: he h on . membE:~r for But~geo - Bay d 1 Espoir is talking about. It -Ls silly . When you improve and upgrade a road, does that not improve its safety? Is that not what improvement is all about? MR. SII'-1MS : Plus, there is money for the Burgeo Road. PREMIER PECKFORD: Does the hon . member want to keep his Burgeo Road, that he complained about all Spring, like it is not.u? We are going to spE:~nd millions more on it to make it better and improve it. Is that not what lAJe are going to do? We arE:~ going t:o do i.t i.n Plum Po int acr·oss t.o EngleE:~.

We are going to do -l t on thE:~ Burg(;!o HighlAli'liJ <.·lnd on thE:~ Bur·in Peninsula Highway. We arr: ~ go :ing l:o do the Trans --L.)brador Highway. We are about the business of ·i.mprotri.ng the road system in the Province, which will therefore tndke il. : sc::1fer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD : We did not ignore the hon. gentleman, we did not ignore the Great Norther·n Peninsula, WE:~ did not ignore Labrador, we did not L3214 June 20, 1988 Vol XL ignore the South Coast, we did not ignore Cent.ral Newfoundland, or East Coast Newfoundland, or anywhere .

In every part of the Province the road system wil1 .irnprovr:~, find lAJh(-?.11 you improve the road system, make it wider and p~ve it, therefore you increase its safety. What thE! hon. ITJE!ITtber i:> s;~y·.ing i.s dOIAJngr·ade roads and leave them like they arE! and thE!Y lAI i 1 J. b t~ s a f e r . MF~. BAKER : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the ITI(~~rnb~H' for· Gander . Mf~. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

The Premier, who I think is the same per·son who a VE:~r·y short t:ime ago was calling for widening of our railway in the Mainland papers mentioned, $405 million for the Trans-Canada Highway, and I would like to ask thE! Minjster of Transportation a few questions about that $405 million. We have been spending money over thr:~ past: number of y(~~ars on l:he Trans-Canada Highway. During the lr'tsi-. Len yer:trs there has b~ ~(.;o n a certain maintenance amount of money t.~Je he~tJE:~ b('!~~n spending .

It seems to me this $405 mi11i.on, the e x p e n d :i. t: 11 r e r e i'\ l. 1y d Clf· ) s n o t s t a r t for a fE!W years. Ten miJ 1ion in l 9 9 0 '1. 9 9 l , i'l n d i. 1.: g o r:! s t o $ 2 S million, but most of it is load E:'d further down the road. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. BAKER: I t.uould like to ask thr:~ minister if this is not, as it seems to mE!, simply an E:~xt.ension of the nor·rnal maintenance program we have with No. 59 R3214

the federal government? MR. SPEAKFR: The han. the M:Lnis tE:~r of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: No, Mr. Sp~~mkc·H'. This is nol: cHl extension of the existing agreemE:1nts thmt Wt':! hav~~ with thc-:1 federal gover·nrnent. This is all new monies, all brand rH-:'!W morrir:~s, which will not hinder in any way our ability to get other agreements with the federal government on the Trans-Canad~ Highway as times goes on.

Over the last number of years, Federally and provincially, we have been putting approximately $30 rni.llion into the Tr'cHls-Can<~1da Highway, $40 mi 11 ion from my own de:~parl::rnent but $30 million Fc-:1deral provincial. This is all brand--new monies, a $40G million program that will accomplish an aiAJFul lot: in tlri.s Pr·ov·i.nce.

Tt will accomplish, for instance, t:IJ.Je n ty-s c~~ v E:~ n k i.l orne bH·s from ClarenviJ.le .to ·the Welkomin, twenty-three kilometers from Glenwood to Notre Dame Junction, thir·ty ki.lometer·s fr·orn Notre Ddme Junction to Bonne Bridge, eleven kilorneter·s from Grand Falls to Red Cliff, 143 kilornetE!rs from Badger to Howley, six kilometers from North Branch to South Branch - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: fifty-eight kilometers from South Br·anch to Port aux Basques, a divided four-lane highway constructed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea1n, hE!ar! MR.

DOYLF.: L321S June 20, 1988 Vol XL Forty-five kilometers from Witless Bay l."i.n8 to Argentia Acc~~ss, a four-lane, divided highway. Another twenty-seven kilometers from Donovan's to Harding Road, including the connection to Kenmount Road. Fifty-one kilometers from Deer Lake to Corner Brook, Mr. SpeakE!r, wi11 be a divided highway. SOMF. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Oi1tQP0f l:hat thE•re IAiilJ. b(:! a major program of bridge repair, widening, and replacement across the Island, and re•surfacing of Lhe Argentia Access Road for thirty-seven kiJ.orne:~ters.

That is +:he rodd T beliE!Ve thcfl.t IAJaS clone during the days of the Liberal adrnJ.n:i.strat:ion and IJ.Je haVE! to r·e:,do it again, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: 13c~1causr~' :i.t IAii.'I.S not: donE! r·-:i.ghl·: in thE:~ first place:~. MR. DOYLE: And absolutely no gt.lcH'anb:!E!S on that one either, that the!re IJ.Jas to be a maintenctnce program undertaken by the federal government. So, Mr·. Sp<~~aker, that :i.s a VE!ry, very extensive program, one which will be a good program For the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

What we should see over the next fifteen year period is approximately $100 million per year, along with the provincial program, going into the Trans-Canada Highway and rebuilding the road right across the Province, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hee1r, hE:~cn·! No. 59 R3215

MR. DOYLE : not just in one area of the Province, not just on the West Coast, not just on the Avalon P e n i n s u 1 a , b u ·1: a n e x t e n s i v e r· o ~~ d s program which wi 11 be applied to all of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, i·H~ar! MR. SAKER: Min. Spr:1aker. MR. SPFAKER: The han. thE! Jnerni:H'! r for· Ca nc:lt:H' . MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the mjnister will listen and stop crowing· for· a fetJJ minutes, is he awarE:~ that the amount of money spent to upkeep the Trans-Canada Highway in Newfoundland in the last ·tE:~n years, .in today 1 s dollar·s amounts to about $470 miJ.lionl and that he has now he 1 ped negotic31. te an agreement, over fifteen years I Mr. Speaker, that '.in today 1 s dollars is worth onJ.y $270 million? Is the minister aware that he has not only given away the Newfoundland Railway, but he has negotiated a cut of $200 million in our ·rrans-Canctda Highway money? Is he aware of that? SOME HON. MEMBERS : H(-?.ar, h(:!r.lr! MR.

SPfAKF.R : ·rhe han . the Minister· of TranspOI"tation . MR . DOYLE: Mr . Speaker I I do not know where thl:~ hon. gentl~~man gets his figure::~ of $470 million to maintain the Trans-Canada HightAJay over the last ten-year period. He must be getting those figur·es from the L3216 June 201 1988 Vol XL federal member for Gander Twillingate (Mr. G. Baker), that is the only thing I can figure out, Mr. Speaker, claiming $470 million to maintain the Trans-Canada Highway over the last tE:Hl y Bi.H'S . Well, Min.

SpE!aker, thE:1 hon. gentlerndn rnr.tkes ref='£~rE!nCE:', as LlJ('•lJ. to the inflation factor that might 'J£'!r'y tAH~ll. be lc-:,git ·i.mc:~te. But, ,'ll)r·.

Speaker·, as a gove1~nrnent we haVE! c:!tl~>ttr·ed LhAI: Lf J.~oJE! do J'lOL lnt!P 'l: our· objectives under the current packdgt;! of f='tlnr:li.nlj that: IAH~ hctVE! put in place today, if we feel l:hat-. tAJP cc:~nnot JnUt"!L our· objectives, we have a re-opener clause in this agreement which will kick in eight years from now, and we will be able lo examine the agreement to ensure that u.Je havE:~, inde~~d, c:1ttrrinEH:I the-?. obj ect.ives that we set out for ourselves in doing UH,~se various projects right across the Province . So, Mr .

SpeakE!rl as thE• MinistE!r of Intergovernmental Affairs mentioned a few minutes ago, if we had had that r·e·-opener clause in the Churchill Falls agrE!erTIE!nt, we would be much better ofF than we are today, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LONG: r11 r . s p E! a k c,~ r . MR. FUREY: A supplE~HIE:Hltai"Y, Mr· . SpE:H~kE!r'. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the mE:~rnbc-H' for· St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, in the short time No. 59 R3216

' remaining in Question Period, 1 wouJ.d lih~ to give the Premier an opportunity to addr·e~; s t.AJha t·. I think are ttAIO very real questions on the minds of most people in the wake of the announceme:1nt today. F::ssr:mtiall.y, I gtlt:'SS, ·it has to do with what happens next sp~~c:i.fical.ly t.~.rith r·efc~r·c·HlCG to ti·H,1 e:1nd of t:hE:1 ERDA Agr·eement. After the net.u rnordr:1s h (~Ve bc:!en add(:!d on top of the already existing agreement., IAJhat happens in 1992 with all the important work that will be left to be done?

And also the question which the Premier rnissE:1d ear·lier· in the SE!ssion today: What happens at the end of the fifteen years? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well. Mr. Speaker, as i. t re lc:t t(:1S to the ERDA Agreements, we have been negotiation ERDA Agreements fo1" years, and we 1.uill, after the pres0nt ERDA Agreement has expired, negotiate a new one. Just look at what we have done toddy. We have topped 11p an already existing ERDA Agreement. I do not know if there i.s anywhere else in Canada t.uhere a provincial governrnr:1n t has negotiat.E?.d a top -up to an e:1xisting agreement.

Usually it has t.o run ou ·l: first, thc->.n you negotiate another one. We have got $100 million now butJ.t on top of one that is already running. So as soon as these ERDA Agreements run out, or a year before, we will begin to negotiate a new ERDA agreement to continue the process of rebuilding and paving, and so on, around the Province.

And, of course, we have to allocah1 t.hr:1 $235 mill.ion that. is in this packagE! which has not been identified for projects. 1..3217 June 20, 1988 Vol XL So 1.1.1e have the $23 5 into the pot and projects it 1o~.ri.J.l. be rni l. l i. o n t. o p u t decide what we have also the u s e d for , cHl d opportunity, because there is a provision in the agreement which says nothing in here will interfere with ongoing agreements, to negotiate Another ERDA agreement in the same way as we have negotiated thJs one now .

As it relates to after years, I think one has to what happens after eight. that is going to be thE! ar ·ea. fiFte en Jook at I th:i.nk Cl"ilicaJ The~ r•eopene:1r clause L1J~dch t.ue havE• here is a very, very good safeguard for · us, I:H:!cause a ·Full review has to be done at that point in time to see whether we are living up to what we said today is going to happE!n.

And I think that is wherE! we are going to hatH:~ to n~~goti.ate cll'ld or ·ganJ.ze ourselves, after the eighth yea I", d f ·1: E! r 1: h e co rnrrri. s s oi. o n r (;! p o r· !:: s . r o try todo e fifteen years now would b(,1 d:i.fficuJ.t, Lo do it t.~d.th only seven years left on the agreemE!nt 1.uould br:1 a l.ot Gasi.er· and t.ue IAJ.i.J.l know where we are going. So I think that after that edght y(~cH' peri.od, !Ali th Uw reop(Hler clause, is the time we have to look at. And by the way, Mr.

Speaker, I want to table for hon. members, while I arn on my feet, a copy of the legal opinions which show that there is no legal obligation on behalf of the federaJ. government to kr:1ep the railway going in perpetuity. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: No. 59 R3217

.... Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Notices of Motion MR . BLANCHARD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAI<FR: l"he han . the:' M'inister· or l..abour . MR. B U\NCH A RD: Mr . Spe:~aker, I give notice that I tAI'l .ll. on l:olftorr·ow ask l(~C:WE! l'.o introduced bi .l.l. EHtti .t l. E~d. "An Act To ArnE! n d T h c~ F ~is h 'L n g T. n d 1.1 s t t" 1J CoJlective Bargaining Act, 1971," and ''I" hE~ Labour l~e:~li:\ l:'i.ons A c L, 1977, II DR . COLLINS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Hei:il th . DR.

COLLINS: I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Licensing Of Hearing Aid Dealer·s," and "An Act To Amend The Physiotherapy Act." MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. lhe M-i.ni.stc;!r oF Ju sU.ce . MS VF::RGr::: Mr·. Sp eaker, I give notice that I will on lomorrot..v <:lsk le ave l:o introduce the-:! following two bills: "An riel: Respecl:i.ng The Establishment Of Services For Vi .cli .rns Of Cr·imc -:! 11 and "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act, 1974. II L3218 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Minister of Municipal · Affairs. MR . BRETT : Mr. Speaker, I giVE! notiCE! th at I will on tomotTOtAJ as k leave to introduce! a biJ.J. entitlE!d, "An Act To AmE:Htd The:~ City Of ContE•r· Brook Act, 1.985," "ThE! City Of St. John's Act," dnd "'T'hE· Municipalities Act." Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. RUSSELL : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Minis tE!r of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Mr .

Speaker, I tAJish to table the answer to Question 1.02 on l:he Order Paper of March 15 asked by the hon. membc-:!r' for Fortune Hermitage, and the answer to Question 122 on the Order Paper of March 18 asked by the han . mE,mber for · Menihe!<. MR . YOUNG: Mr· . 3p Hi ~ker . MR . SPEAKER: ThE: ~ hon. Lhe:~ M-Ln is t:er of Co nsumer· Affairs and Communications. MR. YOUNG : Mr . Speaker·, information as k<:~d by Wa t~erf ord - on Friday . MR . WELLS : No . 59 I would like to tclble on an oral question Ute hon . llH~ntber for Kenmount (Mr. Gullage) R3218

Mr. Speaker . MR . SPF.AKF.R: The hon. the '-~~ad E:~ r of I: he Oppos"it:ion . Mr~. liiiF.:LL S: M r . S pea k e r• , be for· e EHl h~ r ·i. n g J n l: o Orders of the Day, I ask leave to rnove ·t-.he adj ournrnc->.n'i: of i·:hc,~ Hous~~ put"suant to Standing Order 23 to debate a matter of urgent ~nd public importance, namely the agreement signerl this morning by the government of this Province and the Gover·nm(?.rtt of Canada t.uith respect to the abandonment of the railway in this Province SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

WELLS: and, thereby, the .transfer to the government of this Province of the full burden of maintaining within Newfoundland the Newfoundland portion of the National transportation system which, clt this moment, is a constitutionctl obligation of the Government of Canada. I believe, Mr. Speaker, SOMF. HON. MFMBt:RS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: or-der,please:~! MR. WELLS: this is a matter of urgent importance and it is urgent that this rnattc->.r be debated now because there is no other opportunity on the Order Paper, as it stands at the moment, to debate this issue.

I feel ·that it is a matter whE:H'e the interests of the Province are very significant and it is important to the people of this Province that the matter be L3219 JunE:~ 20, 1988 Vol XL debHh~d ai: Uds t'i.mo . Steps are already, in fact:, bE:dng tr'lkE!n l:o :i.mplE!OHHtt +:hdt agrE!ement and Canadian National Railway are i n 1: he p r· o c e s s o F c 1 o s ·i. n g a n d UH'! y are about to close the raJlway on Sc,~ptc;!rnbC:~r l. ( bel i:.:'VC importance l he rrial: t e r i. s or:: u r· g E! n t and I ask leave, Mr . ~:; p E~ a k CH' , i: o of the HOUSE! MR. SIMMS : Mr· . Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER : move l:h(~ adjour'rllnc'!nt to debate the matter. The hon . the President of th~ Council. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Spe:~aker, tAJil:h respc;!cl: to this particular proposed motion by the L<~ade:H' of the Opposi. t.::ion, tJJe have dealt with matters of this nature many, mdny times before, we all know it has nothing to do with the 'i Jll p 0 r tcjl n c (,1 0 r 1: h E! 'i. s s I I e . VII (o1 a ll I< now the is sue i s i rn port ant , but generally speaking, thls particular reference in the ~1tand i.ng OrdE!r!; doal.s tAd th the urgency of debate.

In other 1.~o1or·ds, that th<o~rc,~ oi.s no oth~~r opportunity in the near future for Hri .s rna U :er to be dE!b c~1t< >.d . Your· Honour is atJJare of that. So I just draw to your attE!nt:ion, 1.~oli thou l: get i: -i. n g i. n to a 1 o t oF discussion and debate with the Leader of l:he Opposition, the Address in Reply is still on thE! Order Paper; Committee of Supply is on thE! Order Paper; Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means, which is the budget debate, is still on l:hc-?. Order Paper·. We have Question Period remaining for· thE! tl!::~ x t f o u r clay s of t. hi s tAle e k .

L-J e haue Private Members' Day, incidentally, on Wednesday , which No. 59 R3219

is the hon. rnembE:~r's ot~m resolution with respect to unc:nnployrnent. Certainly, the hon. members can debate the railway issue on Wednesday during that period. It was already debated . We had two full days on thH railway, as all han. members will recall. So really, Mr. Speaker, wlth respect to this partjcular S t a n d .i n g 0 r d e r , .i. l~. .i s v e r· y c 1 o cH' thE!re are lots of provisions, lots of o p po r· tun it :it::! s , and tAJ J 11 be ·in the ve:~t"Y near futt~re.

In fact, I gclve notice myself on Friday - the Leader of the Opposition wil1 r·ecaJ.l - t:hi .d: T wJ.ll b(:~ cal.l-Lng, befor·E:~ this WN~k is out, to concJ.ud~~ th(~ bt.tdgl:!l- : debe:1l~e. ~)o the:n·e will be Jots of opportunities For rlebate, Mr. Speaker. MR. ElARRY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Mount Scio . MR. BARRY: Let me just briefly address that point . M r . S.p e a k e t' , it. i s not often that a matter relating to the Terms of Union of this Province with Canada are being dealt with by an administration which did not have a mandate in thl'::~ last c'!lect'ion, Mt· .

Speaker·, to so act and, in fact, were speaking to the contrary wJth respect to their position . It comes down to, if there is nothi.ng t.o hi.de on i:he o Lher s·i.de, if thet"e is a pt"ide in the a.gr·e erne n 1: i: ha i: has b8 en been negotiated, jf this agreement ge ts , Mr . Spea ker, what : 1-.he people of Newfoundland and Labr·ador should ge t, I subm-ll : thts 'is !)Omething that should be debated, L3220 Jum~ 20, 1988 Vol XL not in I:E!n de1ys titrtl'::~ 1..vhc,1n .it 1 0 <' ,, history, Mr. Speaker, but it The (Mr. should b<'! debated today. Government House Leader Simms) knows, - SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Yc-?.s, the:1 Government House Lc,,ader can per·suadE! Yout~ Honour this should nol ~. corne up today. But ·:. the people of this Province:! tAJil1 not b e d o rH:~ i:l s e r v i. c t::' , i. f l: h a t 'i. s , :i. n fact, the cas E:1 . I t..vo u l d ask th E:! Prem-Ler and the Govornment House LE!ader to consider having, by agrE!Nrt<'!l'l 1: MR . SPEAKF.R : Order, p]easE:~! I recognizE:~d the han. the rrJE!rnbE!r for· Moun+~ S c i. o , but ·. d c t u all. y he does not have a right to speak at this part-Lcul.i:lr time at all.

If he has a v~H'Y brief submission, I tAJould bt'! qui l:e pr'c'!par·l~d t:o h"'~ar· it. The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY : I thank Your Honour for· your indulgence. I will wind up by saying that the people of the Province are out thE!rE!. Just j n two minutes walking down the s trE!et this rnor ni ng, I c auld s E!e groups of pc-?.opl.c,1 clusb:!r·ed and taJ.king. There is no grE!at, as far as I can :; c,~t~. pttbl.i.c outcr·y -.Ln opposit.ion to the agreemE:1nt. But that , does not medn, r.1r.

Spectker, that on sober second thought or on proper dc:!l.'i.ber·at-Lon or· pr·oper debate .in this HousE:~, Mr·. SpeakE!r, there '~Joul.d nol: be sorne s~:!r-i.ous questions raised. I ask members opposite to consider No. 59 R3220

that and let us haue a debate on the Newfoundland Rai 1way and let us de a J with ·t 11 is is sue head on , w:i th some cour·age. PREMIER PF.CKFORD : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPFAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: lhcr·r:~ i''rl:~ t:1.u0 poi.nl: :S l:hc,~ hon. llli:lde IAJhidt haVE! to be addr·essed in 'Lhe c o n s i. d E?. r· c:t l: i. o n of Y o u r H o n o u r· t o the motion put fonuard by the L0~adE1r' of the-?. Opposi Uon (Mr. Wells) . One, that the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island (Mr .

Barry) made is not ualid and, t h e r· e f o r· e , .i. n y o u r c o n s i d C:1 r a t :i o n I would submit the following: The hon . member says that it has something to do with the Terms of Union. It has nothing to do 1.ui th the Terms of Union, nothing whatsoeuer. I haue tabled the legal opinion which confirms that, and there are rndny legal opinions . So it has nothing to do with the Terms of Union. The Terms of Union haue been s df t:!g uarc:l ed i_ n l: his ag r·eerne n t. So nothing CIS it relates to the Terms of Uni.on 1:\rl';1 al. : i.ssue.

If thc:H'e was, then the hon. member might h d v e a c a s e . flu t a ~' i. i: h a p p E~ n s , thE :!re is nothj ng in the Terms of Union which i.s being changed . Secondly, to deal directly with the point that the Gouernment Hous E>. Le::~c:~der made, opporluni l:y to debate is the issue and there haue been two Priuate Membt-?.r's Days .in which the railway has been debated. MR. SIMMS: That is correct. PRfMIER PECKFORD : There will be opportunity on Priuate Member 1 s Day, Question L3221 June 20, 1988 Vol XL Period, Budget Debate for the han. rnC:~mbE!t 'S to get into this completely. MR.

SIMMS : l.ots oF opportunities. PREMIER PECKFORD: !1 o .i. f i:. hE: ~ r c:1 ~~~a s no t an opportunity, then obviously th is u..JOtiJ.d hdtJe l.:o i'-\ppl _y. Bul :. l:h( ;!re are opportunities . ThE1 Te:~rrns of Uni .un ar·e nol -: bC;~ ''l ng v i.ola t (~d and, ther·efore, thE:1 hon . TnE1ntbc:!r ' 1 s submission is inv~lid. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas ): <kdc-?.r, please! I must say I agree that ther·e ar'E• opportunities to debate this matter· in t ht~ Addres s in Rely and the Budget DE:1bate. So the matter is not in order at this time. Orders of the Day MR. SIMf\1S: Mr.

Speaker, we will do a few 1.: hi. t' d r· t~ 1:1 c:l :i. n 9 s h e I" e , b (~ g :'i. n n .i n g with Order 3 and going right dOIAm 1:: o 0 r· c:l r~ r· 1. 8 . We:~ c o u l. d p E! r· h a p s save a bit of time if there:~ tAWS some !< i nd of cHl e\9 r· c:HHilE:' ,-, 1:. to do the third readings wil:hout t.hC:' Spea!<f:H' hawing to go through edch indiuidual one. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS : I want to do third readings. There are about fifteen or sixteen there and r~ther than haue the Speaker go through the ritual of euer·y single orH~, per·haps IJJe could agree to do third readings of No. 59 R3221

:J. bills outlined from Order 3 down to Order 18. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) Bill 14? MR. SIMMS: Yes. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speal<t:'r, I would object to that as a member of this House, and I would point out that the railwclY is going to b.:~ dE:'batab1E~ undc-?.r th .is bill, which is

An Act. To Amend And Consolidate The Lat.u Relating To Th!::~ Usc~~ · And OpE:H'at ·ion of Vehich~s, and I insist upon my rights t.o debate that. MR. SIMMS : We do not debate third readings and thts is a third reading. MR. BARRY : On third reading. MR. :3PF::AI<ER : Tht:~ han . the Pr·esident of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Order 4-. MR. BARRY : Order 3 was called , Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: I did not call any order . MR. BARRY : Order 3 was called, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: It was no l: called. I did no 1~. call any order . I as ked if there was an agreement. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPfAKFR: A poi .nl:: of order·, l-:ht~ hon. l::hH l3222 June 20, 1988 Vol XL member for Mount Scio 1sl.MH:I . MR. BARRY: Bell The Govennn~ ~nt Hot.1se Lc:~acl<~!r' calJ.ed Order 3 and · asked that LlJE! deal lo~.Jith them in ordc.;!r Fr·orn Or·dc.;!r 3. This is before this House, Mr. Speaker, and this cannot be now changed by the Government House Lt:~adc~!r . MR. SIMMS : To the point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Tht~ hon . Leader. MR . SIMMS : [·: ht::~ Go v ~=! r nrnc~! n t House T. as ked i. f" t·.her •e IAJCl.

S i.-\1'1 a gr 'C-;!8111~:!11 t., or an understanding to do aJ.l third readings starting at Order 3 down to Order 18. Ther e is no a g r (H:~ nH;! n l: i: o do l: h <'I 1: so 1: h c-:~ ref or· e the Gouernment House Leader will call Or·dc~H· ''·. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hec::1r, !·H:!ar! MR. TULK : To thi:lt Speaker. point MR. SPEAKER : of o r·d e r·, Mr . To that point of order, the han . the member for Fogo. MR. TULK : Mr· .

Spt~c~!<er, the hon . gen t.letnan clearly stated, and I think if Your Honour reviews Hansard he will see that he stated, 1 I now call Order· 3 and l <-J.sk for agreement to call all Orders to Ord<:H' 16. 1 MR. SIMMS: Why IJJOtll.d I bot.her· that? MR. TULK: T F '( o u r H o n o 11 r· c ;:u· c-:~ s t o r' e::1 c e s s t h e No. 59 R3222

House and look at Hansar·d, he wil.l see what the han. gentleman did say . That is exactly tJJhat hr:~ said, so Order 3 has been called before this House. What he is trying 'lo do is deny the member for Mount Scio (Mr . Bar-r-

y) the right to debate third readings. H8 knot;.JS he~ can do U: •'lnd hfJ .i.$ t t"ying to fiiOVE:~ the Olnder of t.hr:~ liouse dT'ounc:l . ~;QMf liON. MFMRFRS : ~·------· HE!ar, hco1ar! M.R . SPfAKFR: The"! hon . thE:f GovernmcoHil: House L<:~ad c,~r . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speakc.;!r, I t.o~.lill not stctnd ·for· that kind of nonsense and fooLishness by the han. the member for Fogo. Any other day the han . member would be asking me to do precisely what I just suggested we do! So, do not try to cover up or try to kid the people, or the people who are ln the galleries over these matters. These are House matt<o~rs only.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are afraid of it. MR. SIMMS: Afraid of what? SOME HON . MEM BERS : Afra id of (inaudible). Oh, oh! MR . SIMMS: Do not be so silly. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour wishes to recess that is fine with me, I have no problem. However, I would not have called Order· 3 and th<.;!l'l gone _ on to ask for agreemE!nt. I would have as ked t n tot a 1 it y if the r· H t.o~.Ja s an l3223 June 20, 1988 Uol XL agreement to do third readings, but if members want to filibuster <H' cr· ~;:1 '" t <-?. de 1 a y s , :i t d o e s not matter to me. Your Honour can cco1rta:i .nly check it out .

It doco~S not matter to me. MR. SPEAKER: T am goi .ng recess For mtnutes to l:o look exactly at five l:: hE• c o n t) (:1t' s a 1:. .i. o n . ,Recess MR. SPEAKER : 0 r d ~H' , p 1 (->.as C.;! ! I am sorry about the delay. I li.stc-:!rlE!d to UH~ tape, but I l.o~.Jantt::'d to get a typed record of what IAJas a c t u a 11 y s aid . I l.•.ri 11 r· r:~ ad :i t , as it is here!: uMR. SIMMS: "Mr. Speaker, IJJ(~ wtll do a feiAJ third readings her'E! bE!gi.nning tAJith Order 3 and going right down to Order 18. WE:~ could per·haps saVE! a bit of t ..

Lllle i.f th(:~T'C.;> IAJaS SOirJ(;! lci.nd of an agreement to do the thir·d readings with the Speaker having to go through each individual one ." "MR. TUI..K: 11 (InaudiblE!). 11 "MR. STMMS: "I tJJant to do th:i r·d rNlcl:i ng s. ThE:>r'c-) dt'E:~ about f·Lfl:E!en or' s i.xteen there, and rather than have the SpE:'akt:~r· go Llwough the r.il :.ual of evE:~ry single one, pE!rhdps you coul.d agree,~ to do th-Lrd r'eddings as they ar·e outlined from OrdE!r 3 dou.m to OrdE~r 18." "MR. BARRY: "(Inaudible) Bill 14?" "MR. SIMMS : "Yes ." No . 59 R3223

11 MR. SPEAKER: 11 The hon. the member for Bell Islancl. 11 11 MI~. BARRY ; 11 Mr·. Speaker ·, I would object to t:hat as ~'I lfH :!mb~H' of th-.i.s House, and I would point out that the r·ailway "i.s go:Lng to be debdtabll':~ under Hd.s bill, which is

An Act To Amend And Consolida te Th e Law Relating To The USE! And Operation Of Ve: ~hiclt:!S, and T in sist upon my r·ights to debate that . 11 "MR. SIMMS : 11 W~:! do not ch !bate Ud.r·d r·c::,adings and this is a third rc-:~adi ng . 11 11 MR . BARRY: 11 0n third r·t :~achng . 11 t must r·ul.t::~ thcd: dctu~'llly thdt order wa s not cal led.

There wa s a rE:~fcr ·en c o t.o Cdll. ing fr ·om Ord l':~r 3 to Oinde:H' 18 and thE! hon . the President of the Counc il said: 11 !/\le could pel"haps sau E:~ a b:it of L..-i .lnt::~ i.f l·.:h or·e I~Ji:l.~ > some kind of •Hl ag r·eE:!ITie nt to do the th:i rd readings IJ.Ji.t :hout the ,~ Spe<.'tkE!r' hat; :i.ng l:o go thr·ough l':~ach indiuidua] one . 11 As Far as I am concerned, that order was not called. We are back to Orders of the Day . MR. SIMMS : Due to difficulties, going to moue wi.th Or·der· 4, MR. TULK: some technical Mr. Speaker, I am to Order 4, to begin ju st beginning . A point of order, Mr .

Speaker . MR. SPFAKFR: A point. of order, l:ho hon. Lhe rne:1mber fo1n Fogo . MR. TULK : ·I under·stand thE:1 hon. gent] eman 1..3 2 211 . June 20, l98a Vol X I_ no w is r·e nel!ji.ng on hi.!; cpn unitme nt to this House on Fri day, and not onl y Fr·i.r.la y bu'l: evt;!r 'y d,~y :i.n the las t two or th ree weeks, that when tAle sta rted on the Orde r· Pape r·, if we sta rted to do second readings , we would do second rea dings in order; if we sta rte d· to do third readings, we would do th Hrn in ord er; a nd if we did Committee of the Whole, we would do that in order.

I wonde r if' the hon. gentleman ha s got some specif ic reason why he does not want to do thj rd reading on Or-der · No. 3. 1 wonder would it hav e something to do, Mr. Speaker, with that da!>t.ardl. y, sell out agree ment he made this morning w-Lth l:h~ feder ·.:~ l go vernmen t. on the railway . SOME HON . MEMBER S: H ~~ a r , h c,~ '" r· ! MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speaker· . MR. SPfAI<fR : The hon . the,, Pr'<::!s-i.d~:!n l:. of thE! Council. MR. SIMMS: No, Th~~re hon . w:i.1 d . Mr.

Speaker, absolutely! is t.he ilflc\C.rination of the• mE:~mbers opposite again going The hon. member will also know, and he should haue been person enough to admit it to the Speak er, to i:hc -?. Hou se-?., and l:.o l:h e people in the gallE:~ry, that whE!n IJJe Fol1ou.Jed that routine in the past couple of weeks, there were also occasions w~H-?.n t~.Je skipp ed ou~ ~r a particular item, and I called what I u.JantE!d ;-. o c a 1.1 for d i. f fer· en !: reasons , whateuer the reasons would be . r"lr· . Spc: ~akE:H', [ hi.Wf~ nol: sa""i.d we will no t. call Or·der 3. I h ave not 1\lo. S9 :n224

said that. So should not get will call Order Mr. Sp(~~aker. Right now I hc::tue So 1.ue can gE!t on readtngs, and get business. MR . SPEAKF.R : members opposite too excited. I 3 in due course, called Order· IJ .. with some third on to some other· To that point of or·der, there is no point of order. On motion, a biJ.l, "An Act ~~ e s p :~ c t i. n 9 ThE-) ~~ e:~ 9 u l. a L ton 0 f Pl"iuate ·rra:ining In~;titut:lons, 11 r· E:! ,~ d a llri. r· d U. fll e , o r th! r· E~ d p a s s r,~ d a n d t ·t s U. t J E! b c.;! a s o n t h e 0 r· d e r PapE~r. (Stll No. 2) MR. SIMMS: Order· 5.

On motion, a bi .ll, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971, 11 read a thir·d time, ordered passed and its titlE! be as on thE! Order Paper . (Bill No. 19) MR. SIMMS: Order 7. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydr·o Act, 1.975, 11 rc~~ad a Hdrd time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. ( BilJ No. 24·) MR. SIMMS: Doc.;!s the Leader of the Oppos:i tion 111-i.sh to rnake an :i. ni·.(n·u~~nl· . .ion? MR . WEI.L~:i: Yes. MR. SPEAI<FR: Th(:~ hon. the-:~ l.eader· of t: hE~ Opposition . MR. SIMMS: Before we call the next Order? L3225 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR.

WELLS : No, befor·e bill. i: hi. r·d MR. SIMMS: Which 1.ue did . MR. WELLS : read~l ng of this Well, during b:i.l.l. third rE!ading of thE! MR. SIMMS : l t: · i. ~' don C:' • r h t r· c\ t' f~ (:\ d i. n g i. s done . MR. WELLS: J 1: ·i. ~; o k a 1J • [ IJJ-i.l.l. cil:!<'ll IAl.ii:h i.i:: la ler·. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Sp(~clb'!r, IAle 1~ri.ll j11:>l-. jwnp right now to Order 9. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I IAlould J.ikE! to debate that bill. MR. SPEAKER: ThE ! han. the mE!mber for Mount Scio - Bell Island . MR. BARRY : Mr·. Sp(-:!i:lkf:H', this is a bJll designed to raise - MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAI<ER : A point of order, the hon . thE• P r· c,~ s i. d r~~ n 1:. of t h e C c)ll n ci 1 . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Sper.~!<er, jiJsl : l:o a poi.n+. of or·der, because we need to have c 1. ar· if i. c: a 1: ion on t h :l s . 'C I; i. s u e r y rare that we have debate on third r·ea.di .ngs i.n this House, as the han. member and all han. members would know. 3o, I do not want there to be a dangerous precedent s~ t here which IIJOIJld, perhaps, preoccupy us for the rest of our liues in UJ"is Legisl~ture. I am No. 59 R3225

sure Your Honour· I~Joul.cl t~Ji.Hli: to consider the matter. l w n 1 j u s i: g i v e hi . rn a c: o '·' p J. e of references.

For exarnp) e, fr·om Gaauchesne•s Fifth Edition, Page 239, which deals wi th debate on third reading sta ge . [t poin ts ou t, among other things , 11 Wh en an Order of the Day for the third reading of a bill is called, the sc\ me typ e of amendments 11 - it deals with amendments for a very specific reason wh ich I will expla in when I ref er to Erskine May - 11 u.Jhi. c h are per mi s s i.b 1 e rl t the second reading sta ge are per missible at the third reading stage with the restrict ion that the y cannot cleal with an y ma tter which is not contained in the bill. 11 So th e matter for deba l:e ai: thi r·d reading, if therE-! was ever debate allotl.led and perrnittl-ld under i:h< ~ proper circu mstances, which ar e described in Erskine May, would be very narrow and very limited .

It goes on to sa y, Mr. Speaker, wh en it goes on to the other refer· en ce , i·.aJ. !d ng .:.bou t ho tAJ you cannot contradict the principle or the bill as ·adopted on second reading, an d cer tainly the third reading stage of the bi .ll i.s not: directly connected with any pro vision of the bi ll. So the debate has to be very narro w in its scope.

Now, with r·e spect to Erskine May, which is perha ps the most important reference here that the member for Moun t Sc io, I am sure, must have bru shed over in preparing for his opportunity to debate, Ersk·lne May' s Eighteen th Edition , Pag e 531 - Your Honour will wan t to mark this down because I know he will want to loo k al : i.t - under lhf) par· agraph 132/.6 Jum~ 20, 1988 Vol XI.. d ~~ i.~ l i. n g t~d 1:: h d C-?. bate reading - this is p t~ r-i:. ·i. n t~ n i: p o "i. n t: : on third the very "When a motion has been made for t: h <:!

Hl".i . r· d r' EF'I d i. n g of a b i 1.1, the question is put without debate u n l. c s :; d 1: l. e d s t: s :"i. x me m~HH' s have given notice of an amendment to the quesl:ion or the motion that the question bE! not put forthwith . 11 As far as I und(:'rst.and, Ml". ~3 p (:~a k e r , t h ('! r' e h d s b ('! H n no no t ·:L c e gi.ven of any arnE!ndm E!nt or of any other question. Therefor e, according to ErskinE! May, th~1 question :Ls put IAril:hout clebat<->.. JVl r . S p (:' a k e r' , i f t h e h o n . t h r,;! member for Mount Scio - BeJ.l Island (Mr.

BarTy) IAJant~s to put. himself above Erskine May, that i.s f·i. nE>., but I i'lrn passing ·it on to Your Honour for your information be-?. cau s t>. you u.d.ll. tAJ<Hll: l:o cons idE:' r this matter, no doubt, if ITIE:Hnbetns o p p o s :i. 1·. (~ s f.: r't r· L to k t c k up a b i q fuss over this minor matter. They lfl•'l y we l.l. t~loHl L I: o do t h R L . There are other reference s there in Erskine MAy which I wtl l not bore Your Honour with. If it comes to having to present Further arguments, we will do so. MR . BARRY : Mr· . Specill<t::!r . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island .

MR. BARRY: There is only one mt:~mber in House I put ahead of Er·skine and that is Your Honour, pr·edect:1ssor·s of Your Honour·, Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS : H( :~a r. hE: ~M· ! this May and Mr. No. 59 R3226

MR. BARRY: I ask Your Honour to check the precedents of thi.s House .. I have been in this House long enough, Mr . Speaker, to see a number of debates on third readings and never with an y of this gobbledegook the Government House Leader was going on wit h today about notices that the motion not be put for·thtMith, or· thaf : there be notice of an amendment, Mr. ~') p E:' ;~ k e r . I t h a s b u E! n L r· e a b-=! d ti-H ~ same as on second readi .n g lAlher·e lflernb(~!t'S gE,~ 1: up dnd you rH'('! entitled to debate the principle oF l:.hr~ bJll for· a i:h:i.r·d l:in-u.,~. Mr .

Sp emker· , '( 1/JOI! l d l.i .kl.;! l:o rn r~ke t.his point: Whj le there is obv:i .ou s 1 y a r·eas on for· ·H1e qam0:; the Government House Leader is pl aying, Your Hono~r has the responsibility to protect the prfH'ogati.v~~s oF (~1.1 rrl(~rnbers and i·.o protect the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. as part. of the pr·otection of members of this House. MR. SIMMS: Who wish to waste time . MR.

BARRY: If the Government House Leader is s u c c e s sf u 1 in his mo t i. on here today, it will have the effect of hampering the Opposi bon i.n future from enjoying the prerogatives l:hl:'!y hav e hr:ld, and i.ndeed t-.h.;tl : all t.he members have had in the past in thi .s Housc-), tAJhi.ch hi~S b ~ an to debate the prind .pJ e of the bill on thirrl reading. Mr·. Sp«;-)i'\ker ·, l~lhHt- . i.!> :i.l·. thi.'l.l:. t·.hc-:~ Government House Leader is concer·rwd t:-lbou t:? The-:~ GOlJE!r'I'HII(O!ni: llousc->. Lc-:1ader is tr·ying to say that the debate rnust be narrow. MR .

SIMMS: I am not saying and Beauchesne are it, Erskine si'ly:i.ng it.. May L3227 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR. BARRY: But you are as king the Speaker to ignor·e thi:.lt. MR. SIMMS : No . MR . BARRY: No , y o u d r· e a s k i. n g UH'! S p e a k E! r t. o pay attention to that. You want a nar·r•ot~l dt,~bd l:.e. ~llhy do~:·s he tAJant. a nar·row debate? Because hE:' is d f r· ct :i. d d d c,, b r't 1:. I:'! o n t h e NetArfoundland Ra:iltAlay and the agr·r-~r:!ntc,!ni·. ''!nl:c')t ·ed '.'i.nt.o will cotltE:' before this House today. SOMF. HON. MFMRERS: H c~ a t' , h t;! t:H' !

MR . 8f.IRRY: Why, in hE:~auen's cl f rt'l .i. d 'c o d (~ b a l: e the Newfoundland are proud of it as SOME liON. MEMRERS: Hc-:~ar , hear! MR. TULK: name, are they UH~ agr·~H,11'Tli:Hll:: on Railway if they thE!Y say? They want to railroad the railway . MR. SIMMS: We are going to . This has nothing to do (inaudible) . MR . BARRY: The membc-:1r for Fogo (M1~. Tul

k) rnaclr,1 r.\ good p(ri.nt.. Th~:~y iH'e trying to railroad the railroad ~~ h r o u g h I: h i. s H o u s e . o r· o u t of t h i s House. They ar·e trying to r·ct:i.l.ro<:~d l·.hn Oppos.-i.t ·.i.on, Mr·. Speaker, and they are trying to r· ,;\'i. l.t· o i:\ c:l 1: h i s H o u s ~) 1-. o "' v o :i. cl a proper debat:e. There is debate on third reading

C) f Ul'i. s b :i.l.l r:Hld IAH~ lJ.Jd n t to participate in that debate fully. MR. SPEAKER: Ordc-?.r, pl.(o~i'.ISC.;!! No. 59 R3227

T hi. r· d read i n g To Amend The o r a b :i. 1.1 , 11 A n A c t T~-lX Ac:l:, 11 "i.s Insur·ance Companies the bill which has been c;alled. The han. the rnernbPt" for Moun·t Scio · HHll. Island . SOME 1·101\J . MEMA F: RS : Hear·, hear! MR. BAf{RY : Mr . Speaker, this is a direct - DR. COLLINS: t"' r· . S p C::1 a k t·H' • MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The han. l:.he MinistE!r of Health . M~. BARRY: This is scandalous. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, just for clar'i.ficat'i.on. Th(:1 hon. Hous<-:! Leader raised a point of order and th(:1n l:he hon. rn< -:'!lnbm · spokt! lo il~.

I am not sut"e if Youtn Honoutn has rul.r:.~d on thai: poinl'. of ot·der. MR . SPF:AKfR : The deb a t:E:1 on Hd r· d r· e ad in g is i n o r·d E:H' . OfL COLU NS: Your Honour has rnadt:1 d rul"i.ng? MR . SP EAK ER: Yes . MR. DINN : We did not know that. AN HON . MEMBER : It is ? MR . DAWE: That is the first time - ?OME HON. ~~MBER~ : 1..3228 June 20, 1988 Vol XL Oh, oh! Mf? . BAR~~Y : The former Minister of Finance, U11.,1 M:i. n :i. s h-:1 r· of H E:1 all : h (Dr· .

Collins) will have to learn the r· 1.11 <-:1 !> d n d T hop(~ ! l·w do c.,> s no i: 1: r· y to lear·n them from the Gov(:1rnment IIOIIS!-: 1 I,O ddfH'. Mr. Spea ker, this bill is

an act dc~s :lgn c~d lo tnal<e more eff:i.cient the collectio n of tax revenue in thi:; Pr ·ovi.nce.. H : ·i.s

an act t:o modi fy the process of tax assessrne11t. Mr. Speaker·, one has to ask wh y sho .uld gover nment mak e th~ proce~s of tax ass ·essrnent more efficient? MR. SIMMS : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SP EAK ER: A po int of order, the han. the Pr eside nt of th e Council. MR . SI MMS : Mr . Spea ker, I am trying to d<-:!1 :e rm :i.nc~ ,,,h ,·~t ; -ll: i.s W <"' r.tre doing he re. I t hink you yourself said l:he deb~'lb~ ·i.:.; on nn nc:t To Amend The In suran ce Comp anies Ta x Act? MR. BARRY: R i g h 1: ! R i. g h 1-. ! fh g h t ! MR. SIMMS: Tht:!

In s ur ·,~nC E:' Cornpan 'i.es Ti:'lx Ac t deals with filed tax rE!tunt s that d.i.rfc ;!r' ·i.n amount fr·orn Lh< -:1 c-:tudil ::ed returns. Presumably the debate must be ~ nar·r·otJ..Jl.y kc-:1pi: l::o that particular point. I get the feeling that the hon. member opposite wants to play a few more gamr:1s. MR. EFFORD : You do not know, do you? MR. SIMMS : Oh .Y< :!~ ;, T do . I can read hi s mind No. 59 R3228

v e r· y e a s i. 1 y . I was not qui.l:11:~ sure tklhE:~th~H· the,~ han. member· was starting to stray a little bit from the third rE:~ading par·t of the bilL Mr. S p E:~ a k e r· , Cj r· n o t , b E:~ c a u s e h e s h o u 1 d not be permitted to do that. MR . SIMMONS : Mr· . Spea k<->. r, l:.o 1: hat point of order . MR. SPFAI< F.R: ro th a l~ po:Ln 1:. of ordE~r' Hw hon . the TTIE >.mbE:H' fotn For·tune - Hermitage . Mr~ . SIMMONS : i"' r· . !3 p f~"' k e r , T. u n d c;• r· ~> t d n d 1·: h r,~ nEH 'uou s n c,~ ss of Lhe gentleman for Gr '<Hld Fr'l11 .s (r•1r·.

S:i.rnrns) :i.n l:ha !.: hl, ~ is at the poin t of reading the rn:i.nd bcf or·e l:hH g e nl-.l .f~ rnan for · Mount Scio - Be] 1 I s1and (Mr . Barr·

y) fi.!IJen s c'IY s 1.1.1h a l: i. s on t:h E:~ rnind . Now, Mr . Sp eaker, there is another re fere nce in Be auchesn e - MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) my taxes old boy . AN HON . MEMBER : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS : I know he is hurting , and somet :i.rrH~ s IAthen hcO! hur ·ts he geb; dirty. I understand that. Now, Mr. Speaker, in Beauchesne i: her· e i. s an o 1:-. hE! r r o fer en r. E:~ and i. t is on ·~.he top of page 221 of the Fifth Edition.

It is Paragraph 712 (5), 11 Th :i r·d Reading - The purposE:~ of !:hE:~ thi.r·d r·eadJng i.s to r·c:!ujew the bjll in :its final for·m aft: e r t h C'! s hap i n 1!J :i. t: h ,;t s t' 1:~ c e i. IJ E:~ d in :its ear·J.ier stage:~s. 11 MR. SPEAKER : What page is that? L3229 June 20, 1988 Vol XL r-1R. SIMMON~3: It is Paragraph 712 (5), page .:?21 . The top of 221, 11 Thtr·d Reading - The purpose of the thtrd rc~ading is to revie w the bill in its fi nal for m . 11 I submit that that is exactly what the gentleman fo r M ount Scio - Bel l Island is doing. He is r·eviewing the bi 11 .

The gentle man for Grand FalJ s ne ver gave h·i.m a chance to enter into the re view because he decjded to start be lng clclirvoyani: about the whole thing. The fact is tAle have some llcence here in this revie w if: we are to ensure that Uli ::> J. e g i s 1 a ~~ J o n :l. n i t !3 f i n a 1 f o r· rn is the kind of legjslation that wiJ. l st~t'IJf-~ ·l:hl:~ Pr·ovince t•Jell . MR. SPEA KER: To that point of or der, there is no po :i.nt of or·der·.

As IAI•:\S pointed ou t j ust a moment ago, 11 The pu rpos ~~ of 1: he I~ hJ. rd recld :i. ng i. s to revie w the bill in its fina l for m ~'tft.er l:h(;;~ shap:l .ng i.t has r·eceive d in its ea rliest sta ges. 11 I would a::> k the hon . member l:o keep his rem arks to that. The hon . the member for Mount Scio --- Bell Isl<Hld. MR . BARRY: Ab solutel y, You r Hon our.

The poin t t arn trying to rnai«-:J is this bill is designed to make more eff:i.cienl: , to strearnli.ne l:he asses sm ent and collection of ta xes. t was about to sa y, we hav e to a sk for what reaso n the adrnini.stral :ion IJ.Io t;ld be inte res te d in strea mli nin g the assessment and collt'H: I:·i.on of ta xes. MR. ~HMMS: Invo] vi ng insurance cornpantes. and t: h i.-l. 1.: ·i. s i.'\ l. J. . MR. RARRY: ~~ (:~ 11 , o b tJ i. o 1.1 s 1 y , M r . S p P a k c-:o r • 1:: h e y are going to have to pay to - No . r:;g R3229

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Ordc->.r, please! Ml~. BARJ~Y : M r· . S pea k e r· , t he i n s u ran c e COHlpi:trl:i.(:!S ,-H'(,~ go ·i_ng Lo hd!J(~ ·

h) pi:-lY t-.ax. Under this act, thE:~Y have to Pi!lY Lax. MR. SU"'MS: They already pay tax. MR . BARRY: Mr . Speake r, Task 'tour Honour to protect me from interjections so I ca n make a few poi.nts her·e before my time is up. I ask the Government House Leader to obey the rules of the House. AN HON. MEMBER : You have (inaudible) . MR. BARRY: of those minut.E?.S r:l.rE:! Y(->.S, but tEHl alr'E-)ady gone . aL least hi~lF 1.1.1ha t I 1.1.1a n t. to I arn going to need an hour· to debd l':e->. debate.

NOtAl, l.t.J.i.l- h l.llil 1 Mr. the the Speaker, we are dealing a S S e S S lfl E:~ n 1: 0 f l: r'l X . ~~J h y Provj nee need to improvE:~ i: he e f f·'i. c i. 1->. n r: y of i. :·:s tdX collectjon? MR . SIMMS: ~o fix the highroads, I suppose . MR. BARRY: Absolutc->.1y, Absol.ut.el.y! SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speaker! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! 1.3230 June :w, 1.988 VoJ. XL MR. BARRY: Absolut.el.y! highway! MR . SPEAKER : To matntatn thE! A point of order, the han . the P t' E:~ ~; i. d e ri t of l: h H co u n r: i. l. . r..,R .

SIMMS: Now that the hon . the rnember for rJJounl : S1:i<> h41 '> adm :it t~ed , has confessed that wha t he wan ts to i:aJ.I< aboul : ·i.:; t·.hP. hi ghroads and fi xin g the highways, that , o b v 'i o 1.1 :.; 1. y , M r . S p c~ a k e r , i. s 1·. o 1:.13. l. 1 y out of order . It has nothin g to do with this par tic ular bill. MR . BARRY: No, no, no! MR. SIMMS: This bill talks about notices of assessment isstJed only t.!.lhere filed tax return differs in amount from audited rE~tur·n.

It has nothtng l:o do 1.uith highroads, nothing to do t.utth hight~Jdys, noth:ing t.o do tuith maintainance of highroads or h:i.ghtMays, dnd hF.! has now adrrd l::l::c"!d that is thE! game he is t.ry".ing t:o p 1. "' y . I f T. IJ.H:! , .. E~ Y o Ul'' H o n o u r , I would not let him trick me l".ike i~ hi:-1.1" . MR . TULK : To that Speaker. point MR. SPEAKER: of order, Min , To that point of order, the hon . 1~.hE:1 IIIE:~111ber For Fogo . MR. TULK: The hon. gentleman seems to be cll.!.lful.ly edgy or upset about something.

The hon. gentleman should get this t:.hrot.tgh h.:i.s mind: What the hon. gentleman down herE! ls talking about ols the c.;!Ffic:iency of collecting taxes and how 'i.mportant efficiency ts, and he said something about highways. Of No . 59 R3230

course, it is hi. g ht11c\ y s • i. l: i. s hosp"ita]s. MR. HARRY : important ·-i.rnpot• t·.an t to l:!) I did not say that. The Government House Leader said it . MR. TULK: He said that . MR . BARRY : Sure . MR. TULK : Yes, he said tha f.: i. t IAidS important, MR. BARRY: I a g r· ~~ (~ d IJ.Ii. H1 1·1i. rn . MR. TULI<: and we agrE:~e . We agree the efFtci.fHlCY of t:l-w govc,~rnrnc-:!nl: l:o coJJact taxes is important bf~cause, df~pc,~nd:i.ng on ho111 efftd .E:!I'lt ·the gover·nrnent is, that rrJ(!i:UlS h01..11 rrJUC:h 1110r1ey i.:hey IJ.J:i.J.J have. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we know what the hon. gc~ntleman :i.s real.1y upi :i.ghl ~ about. He is afraid the han. gentle1nan from Mount Scio is somehow going to mention the railroading of the railroad thro ugh this . Legislature. That is what he is r·eally scared of. Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I have not had an opportunity of hear ·i. n g t h c,~ h on . rn H rn be r b 1.1 t.

T would again repeat what I said: "The pl.lt 'fH)St~ of th:i.r·d r·earhng ·i.s to rev:i~'liJ thE:~ bill in its finaJ F o r· m d r 1·. e r UH~ s h d p i n g :i. t. h a s recE:dved in its aar·lier stages." L3231. J IHH~ 2 0 I l 9 B 8 Vol. XI. Dealing with the highroads, I know 1-.hc-) ho n . lllf>.rnb< ,H ' jus L r·e p(~C\ 1-.e d what: the President of the Council said, but that would be get ti ng away from the substance of this

part i.c ula.r· bi.l.J.. The han. the member for Mount Scio . MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is highly unusual, of course, F cH' Your Honour to be asked to make preliminary rul ings on ;;l metnber· of t:his Hou se, on his feelings. on what he might bE ! get ~i ng into and what he might propose to get into. And again, I l:hough ·l-: 1 heard l:hlil novernrnent House Leader, earlier this a f 1·. e t'tlO o n , M r·. . S p tm k e r , s a y l: h e (' e wer e lots of opportunities for us on l:he Ot•dc ~r P!ilper i-.o d0bate - f:lN HO N. MEMBER: (I naud ibJ E:~) . MR. RARRY: Can .C men l:'i.on thf;! L~lord, 1 wonder·?

Can I get away with mentioning the Ne~AJfoundl.t:tnd Rai 1tAJay? Can I mention that there will be lots of opporl :unil::i.es ·to debate it, Mr. Speaker? He did not want to block or interfere with our opportunities to debate it. Well, now, Mr. Speaker, u.Jhat I am debating hc~ r e is this bill. It is a very significant bill . It is a three-liner, Mr. Speake r, and it is going to add the words. 'when !:he amotmt of the tax has been altered 1 • Mr . Speaker, what is the signifi cance of al tering the ta x the ins uranc e companies are going 1: o p "' ~ ?

The s i g n :i. f .i. c: a n c: e i s members oppos ite are going to be a b l. e t o i n c r· e a s e i: h t-) l:r:t x . 1: t c an go up or it can go down. If they r.l r <~ go :i. n g 1: o o3l. h n· .i.l- . , i. 1: i. s go in g to go one way or the other. Now, No. 59 f0231

which way Ar e the y Speak er? they do House ar e th ey going to go? goin g to go down , Mr. They will go down if not perrni t debate in thi.s on the Newfoundland Rai h1ay . Speaker, li:~x go? They tAri.ll. go dotAJn, Mr. but which way will the Mr .

Speaker , I l-.h:i .n!< the :i.nsu t'•Hlt:li! corupani es of this Pr·ovince are ~~ n t i 1.: l. e d 1: o !< n ot.u and T 1.: hi . n k 1': h ~~ gener ·al public of this Prov jhce js (~nl ::i. l:1ecl t:o knot ~J, l:h.'lt U H~i .r· t:dx and the ta xes of the peopJe in l:h .. i.s Pr·ov:i.ncc,~ dr'c ,~ noi ·: going l.:o go duiAJn over the next few years. 0 n e r· Eo~ '" s o n t h e y r.H' <"l n o I~ g o i. n g 1: o go down is because of an agreement t h d 1: wa. ~; s i. g ned today , a g r· e t~ d to today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY : Mr.

Speaker, does Your Honour realize your taxes go to maintaining the Trans-Canada Highway, for <o'Xample? The taxes of the insurance companies go to maintaining the Trans -Canada Hjghway. Mr . Speak~ r . talk about insu rance! When the dangerous goods , that: H 1l~ mc~rnbcH' for· Bt.Jr'g co - Bay d' Espoir· raise d tod ay, sta r·t trr. wF.!ll. i.ng l:he h:i.ght.rJay, I do no1 : know if we ar·e go j ng to ha v E.~ tcJo ma ny instH'anc: ~ cotrtp.'l.n :i.c~:; 1t~fl : by t.he tirne the y start paying ou t for the f c\'1 : .:~ J. :i. t.: t e s Ill n cl U18 .:l r: c i. de n i::. that are gojng to occur. AN HON.

MEMBER: What are you talking about? MR. BARRY : I am talking, Mr. Speaker, about the fact that we are going to haue a greater insurance risk for L3 23 2 June 20, 1988 Vol XL people travelling our t.o~lhen the da.nger·ous goods Newfoundland railway get hi g h1Aicl y s . MR. DAWE : highways from the on thoSE! What are you talking about? MR. BARRY : Mt'. Spr.~c:'\krH', l·.hd'L i.s t~Jhc 'ti·. is go l.ng to happen. AN HON. MF.MRFR: ----------Wh~~ ki.nd of goods? MR. BAfH~Y : ----·-We will ta11< about cht'rnicals, Ml". 3pf~di<C'!t', MR .

DAWE : W h .i. c h o n f~ s d :L f f 1;,~ r· t'! n t f r· om tAJ h at ·i s on the highways now? MR. BARRY: Mln . Speaker, there is going to b~~ 20 per cc~nt by mc~mbE:H'S - MR. DAWE : Name one . DR . COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Order, pJ.eas<~! A point of order, i:ht~ hon. the r'l:i.n·i.sl:Ht' of llor•111·.h. OR. COI..UN::> : Mr·. Speaker, Your Honour has r·uled i: hf?. r·t,~ Jlli'1Y be,~ do bd te i:1 t {:.lt :.l. s pot n t.: on this bill in third reading. T ~ll '! r· <~ ·i. ~; no p r·o b l. e tn t~d. L h Utc.-J. t: .

But Your Honour did not rule, and he tMi.:l s no 1: r· e q u J r· e d to r· ul e at that point, on the width of the debal:e. "J"hdt i.s my point of order now . MR. BARRY: Tl·w '"lid th i.s a narrow gauge, a narrow gauge . No. S9 R3232

SOMf HON. MfMRERS : He<H', hei'l.r' ! MR. SIMMS : They 1.uer·t ~ not J.aughing year· ago IAlere they, Lc-:1o? DR. COLLINS: at. you a What I am suggesting is the han. member no1A1 is not dc~bal::.ing as hr.:1 should in third reading. He is n o IAI d e b a t .i n g a s h e s h o u 1. d h a v c,1 i. n second reading . In other words, he is go ing back ·i.n a very br·oad way to 'the principle of the bill. Mr·.

SpeakfH', I put. it ·for your consideration, if that happens, we a r· (~ .i n a v (H' y d t f F i. c ul t s :i. t u a 1: :i. on , because, in essence, we will have tiAJo de:1bdl:es on the pr·tnc .i.pl. f~ of the:1 bi 11 . All membE:H'S can on] y sp eak onc e on the principle of the bi 11 . If they can speak once on lhe pr·:ind.pl.t~ of 1:ht,1 b'i.ll i.n sec on d readj ng and then the y can s p e a k o n c H o n t: h e p r i n c:i . p J. :~ o f 1: h e bj 1 1 in Lhi rd re ading , to my i.nfor ·mal :i.on l:h~'l i.: :i.:; "' l:ota ll.y stran ge par· J. ia men tar y situati on.

For· t h a 1.: r· e as o n • i. f L h cH' r~ i. s dE:1bate in the third rE:1ading, it hds l:o be not on i:he pd .nc:.i.ple of thE:1 b:ill, but it has to be much nan·owc~r· than that, it has to be~ on a specific point that is in the bill itself. Otherwise , we will be repe:1ating the second stage r·ead:ing, 1.uh :ich I.AJOI~ld be quite outside the bounds of British parliamentary practice. So T IAJould say, Mr.

Sp~~aker·, thc3.t the hon. member has transgressed the limits 1-.o IJJhi .ch he should bE?. debating, as Your Honour has perm:i tted hirn l:o do, in l:hi.rd reading and he is getting into the limits that apply to second reading. He should bE:1 called to o r'd E! r·. 1 .. :1/.13 JunH 20, l9H8 Vol XI.. MR. BARRY: To l:hc'lt: po:i.nl. of ord~?.r, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : To 1: h a l... p <) :i. n i: o F o I" d e r· • t h e the member for· Mount Scio Isl .:~ncl. MR. BARRY : Mr . han . Bell Mr. Speaker, th ere ar e highly unu siJ.: ·\1 'i.n te:H'j ~~ction s fr· om mernber·s opposite, from the Government Hou SE! LHader.

One ha s l:o ask, lAJhy is that happening? MR. SIMMS : Because you will not let us get on · tAJit :h l·.:hr::1 busii 'H:1SS of !:hE ! Hoi.I SE!. MR. BARRY : It is obviousJ.y to try and stiflE! clt ,1bnh ~ by rnember ·s on t.hi. s stde of the House on a matter that has COffH~ up. DR. COLLINS : He:1 is just de:1bat.:i ng parl:i arnen i::ar·y fH' 0 C H d II t' ('! , l: h a I: i. S c'lll . MR . SIMMS : ~"( ~ ~~•oulcl I:J(-) on OrdE. ~r 3 nOIAl .i.f he had not !Alas ted so much time. ~-J~~ would hnue be en ~ack to it by now. MR . BARRY : Yes, we lAli11 be on Order 3, Mr .

Speab:1r, Uw day rnE!rrlb,->.r ·s haue agreed the House is go:ing to clo s e~ . We lArill be on Or'd E!r 3, Mr . Speaker, that day , whenever that lfldY be, l:hr·e~~ IJJ~'!~i!kS en· a rnoni:h. There were interjections, Mr. Speaker . MR . SIMMS : A point of privilege, Mr . Speaker. MR. BARRY: I am spE?.aking to a po'i.nt of order . MR. STMMS : You lAJould not say it . I thought i\ln. 59 R3233

you were going on for hours and hours in debate . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island . MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker, it would be a lot easic~~r· for HH~! to klH:~P l:o thr~ lllcl'"i.n thi"U s t of thj s b:il] and to the pot n l s r· •'~ :i. s r~ d by l: he ~'l":i . n :i. s 1-. P r· o F H~~a] t.h':. poj nt of ordc~H'. if t.:her·e '"'~'!Y'e no!: t··.h~ :!S H :i.nt:c~~r·j~=!ct: .. i.on~ ; fr ·ntn HIE:!rrJbEH 'S Oppos:i.t.e . 11s far· a~; t:!-11~ po"i.nl: oF tH 'ch:!r' ·i.s con c (H'ned. Mr. Spea I< e-n·.

I arn ta1k ·i.ng i.'lbout: t·:hi~ ; phr<'~~.>e: ''Whc :!n the aruount of the tax has been dl.I:HY'c->.cf . 11 T. dill 1:,'\l.k"i.ng dbO .U1:., IAJhy is the adrrdrdstraUon's concern about altering tax for the insur·ance companies of this Province? Not.1J, Mr ·. Sf)(~~aker·. t·:hi.s is a bill to increase taxation. MR . LUSH: It is almost unlimited . AN HON . ME"MBFR : Decrease the number of (inaudible) . SOME HON . MFMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Orde r. p lE~ast~ ! MR . BARRY : l'-1r . Spe ake r·. [ r:nn ;,ti .J1 on l:he po int of ord er.

The po jnt I am l:r•y:i.n g l:o tlli:l k ~ ·i.;, ~h~'ll : m e mb e r·~; oppo site Cll"e co nti nu ing to ob je ct so as to l:a ke at~Jr.lY my r:l .gh t l:o debat e this bil l as I am enU tled Lo. MR. SIMMS : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the U23/l. June 20, 1988 Vol XL President of the Council . MR. SIMMS: Obutously. the hon . member has gotten off on the wrong foot h e t' e .

I 1: i. s ~w :i. d e n t f r' o rn IJJ h r31 -1: h e just said two minutes ago, 'We will be on Order 3 on th e rlay that we adj a urn here. ' I said forty --five minutes ago. 1-.hal: T. t~Jd!> going Lo pr·o cE!<'!cl on to do the other third reading s and ·t·_hdi . T '"'ot .t'ld c orn~ ~ b;,,c k Lo Or·clet" 3. I said that :in du <->. course J I~JOitl.d b~::~ b.,"'ck Lo Or·c:lc:H ' 1. MR . RARRY: rn due cour·se. MR . SIMMS: Yes. MR. BARRY: When is tha t? MR . SIMMS : As soon as we third readings. finish Would the other that make t. h E• h 0 n . 10(-:l rni:.HH' that is what I minutc-?.s ago. happy?

Becau se said forty-fiue MR. BARRY: Will that be this afternoon? MR . SIMMS: () ~; sl1rni. rig- y 0 1.1 cl 0 n () 1: .i. n t. (;• t' r· 1.1 p t: . SOM E HON . MfMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . ST.MMS : Oh , no, Mr . Sp ea ker, ag t'~

o) c,)tii Cl nt. 1.1n l :i. !< e i: h c-l opposj te, I will r:'\gr ~)e ill P. n l: , ·i.f ~Je ca n third readings - MR. BARRY: I make cHl hon. lflE!IflbC:!t 'S mr.lke an do the othE!t' I am not concerned about that. Mr·. Spe<:lkC·H'. can I dE~bab->. !:he bill that is before the House? No. 59 R3234-

MR. SIMMS: dOIJ.Jrl l·:o ca11 Order absolui::Hly. 0 r d tH' No . 1 3 . l 3 as the l<:tst AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. SII'-1MS: IJ.J:i. ll. one, I am just saying it becausE:~ obv:i.ously hH has 1n:i.s'.'i.nl~.erpr•eb:~d what I have sajd. MR . SPEAKER : To that point of or·der, I would again r·efer· hon. rn~~rnbE-H'S l~.o th~~ quote that I r·ead some time ago. Thi s debate should be confined to a very narr·ow debate, and we are debat.ing

An Act To Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act. I think it ls stretching it very much to say that if one increases or decreases tax it is going to effect raill.uay or ~dghways or anythi .ng. Obviously t-.hing:; .:H'E:~ effected by the taxes, but what we f.H'r->. doing hr,n·:~ :i.s dr::!bc:tU.ng l:h ·i.r·d r·c-'!ar.Ling on t-h:i.s par·Ucu1ar· aspect, 1·.hP. :i.nsurr:'lnr:t~. l IJ.JOI .1lcl dsk l:h1;! l1on. mE:~rni:HH' to confine h:is remarks Lo 1-:l'lr'l.l:. M R . 8 (l[~ R Y : Yes, Mr·. Speaker. Can I speak about insur·ance, Your Honour·? Let us talk about jnsurance for a wh i.l. (:~ .

Let us talk about in fift een yea rs, Mr . Speaker, as a resul t of the agreement signed by the members oppo site , wh en m em bers are jn this House, Mr . Speaker, consi.deri.ng ho w to deal ul i th the escalating ra te of insurance in this Province because of the damage to motor vehicles riding over a Tr·an s-- Canada Highway that the Province cannot afford to maintain . Can I l:a 1k about i·.hat j nsuran ce, under The Insu rance C o ~npani. es Tax Ac:i :? l 3 2 3 ~; June 20, 19B8 VoJ XL If I cannot speak about taxes, Mr . Speaker, let me talk about insurance. The submj ssion I am makjng here, rllr'.

Spt:~ab=!t', and iL is a submission the member for B ~~ l 1 (;! v 1.1 r,~ , M r· . S p e a I< c,, r· , SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . BARRY : /lo1r . Sp~~;:,1ker·, briefly deaJ if I could just with the increased insurHnce this present agreement entered into today is going to r·esult in For this Pr·ou·.incE•. AN HON . MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: No, increased insurance. Be cause IIJha t has ha pp ened , Mr ·. Speaker, j$ that the Government of C.:-~ n <'\ d a h t'l. ~' b c.;! G n l. e t o r f l: h e h o o k ::i.n a bi g way. There has been a :;,~1.1 ouf : of t:he Newfoundl and Ra iJ way . MR .

SPEAKER : Ord, ~r, pleas e! The hon. membPt' 'i.s not-:. in or·d~?.r. He is getting away from the s 1.1 b stan r: e of L h i. s par t . .i. c u 1 a r b i 1.1 . MR. BARRY : We ll, Your lion our . t am go ing to ask for Your Honour 's protection and I am going to ask for the sa me liberty to be gi ve n to all members of this Hous e, to be perm itted to say enough about their line of thought to let Your Honou r understand fully whether my commen ts are on thi.s bill or not . Y o u r· H o n o u r , -.insurance . I fact -l:h.'l.t iF No. 59 [ am talklng about am talking about the i':h<->. h:i.ghiJ.Jt'lys of l:hts R3235

Prouince are not maint ai ned as they should be by gouernment, that is go ing to resul t in incre ase d insurance, Mr. Speaker. That rela tes direc tl y to Th e In sur ance Compan ie s Tax Act . It relates to whethe r insur· ance cotnp anies w:i.1 1 be uiable, as to wh et her there IJ.Ji.l l be any nee d fo r i:h:i.s act , for am en ding this claus e in th e f orm tha t it is propo se d to amen d it. Will the insu rance co mpanies of th:i s Pr ovince be abJ.e to bear the burden ? Wi .ll l:hP. g~nerr.ll publ:i.c; be able to bear U te but ·den, Mr .

Sp::H'lb:n· , oF l:h t~ i.nc:r'eH:>F.!d :ing urance t:hat 'ls goin g to res ul t l•lhen l:he rr.3.t1S -Canad .. ~ H :i.9h 1~J i:l Y "i.n fiftee n y ~a r s wj J 1 no t be lfl•~intai.t 'H:1d becaus0. l:hco?.re tJ.dlJ. no !: be P.nough dollar•s in t.he prou ind.a l. t r (o,~a s tH 'Y l:o rna:i.nt.:1.J n it I Mr . Sp eak er·. MR. PIHTEf~SON: You do not know what wj.lJ be in the treasury in fifteen years, boy. MR. BARRY: Let. us talk about what wi11 be in t:he treasur·y, Mr· . Spc~aker·, in fifteen years and what tAiill haue to be raise~ from insurance companies and others.

What is go-ing :into the-'! tr'E:1asury today from the Gouernment of Canadd arnoun ts, Mr· . Sp~::1akor·, i:o h1ss than $300 mjJJion for the Tr·ans· .. Co3.nc:'ldd HLghiJ.Ji!IY 'i.l ·.soJ.f. I belieue the Premier discussed SOirJ(-:lt.hi .ng <'lbou t: UH :! cos 1: of 'li2 bi1 }jon. Is that thE~ fj gurE:1 that i.t IMOIIlcl t.~~!<t:1 l:o pr·opc ,1r•l.y doubl.e t.he Tran~--Canada Highu.Jay? MR . !"":)PEl1KF.R : Order, pJ~::1ase! fhE~ - hon . me1nbc:!r i.:> s f·.r·c:lyi.ng from this par·U cuJ.ar· bj 11 . L3236 June 20, 1988 Vol XL MR. 8Af~RY: Mr .

Speaker, we are seeing something i.n this HousE! today that I thought we would nE!UE:1r see . lrJe r.lr(-:l sc~etng an attc,Hnpt to st :iFle, block, impedE!, and preVE!nt debe:ltE! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: ..... on a mcd: 'i'.er, Mr· .

S pl~ -"1 k er·, tAii 'L.i. c h j s of significan CE:1 to thE! pE!opl E:• oF this Prov ince , whi ch is no t irre]euant, which re lat es to th e l: .:~ x r=! ~; , ~~~ h :i. c h r· :~ 1. d L 1::1 !:; l·: o ·i n s 1 J r·· a n c e , t.o~.1h"i ch r·e] at es to LhE:' in s u r an cE:~ c o rn p i:\ n i. e ~; o f L h :i. s P r· o v i. n c o , 61 n d which relat es to why thi s bJlJ ~; hould bo arrH ~ndt>.d l·.o :i.nclude t.hE! word s, 1 when the amount of th e tax i :; l:H:d. ng R l.!:c:H•ed ' . Taxes wt 1.1 h au e to be a 1 t ere d for · ·i. n s u t' r'.H1 c (~ c o rn p a n :i. E:1 s , M r .

S p e a k c;! r , in order to pay for· the rrt< :'l.inb~nanccC! of UH-'! Tr '<H1s-Canada Highway I because thr:1 GovE:1rnrnE!nt of Cdnada is not go:i. ng to b<:! pay -1. ng for the maintenance of the Tr·ans .. -Canr-.1da H:i.ghway, bcC!cause, i"-1r. Speaker, there is less than $300 rni.l.l.ion -in today 1 s dollt.H's ccllrring From thE ! GoUE!rnment of Canada for the Trans-Canada Highway. Does Your Honour know what the cos l: l: o l-:11 ''! F f~ d r,'r' d 1 t r E~ as u r· y h d s been last year and year before for Hkl. i. n b'l-i. n .. i.ng l:h1·~ NE '!I~if ott nd 1d nd ra"iJway? Approxjmately $60 rn.i.l.l.:i.on.

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Th,,~ hon. rn~:~mb,,~r· :i.~; d<.:J<'\:i.n from the narrow confines l: h ·i. t' c:l r· ~~ i:l d .i. n g of 1: h :i. ~; b i .ll . str·ay:ing of t.hE! The han . the member for Mount Sc:i.o - Bell Island. No . 59 R3236

MR. BARRY: Your Hono ur, :if thi s is The r nsu ra nc( ->. Compan ies Tax Act . and J. f I am talking about the fact that i:hcH 'I-) .H·~:~ onl y $:300 mi. J.J.'i .on gn ·i.n g :int o the cofferg of th:i s 9 o v e t'l'llne n i: f t•orn IJH,~ Gov er nm ~ n 1·: of Canada, IJ.J e are ent :i th~d, Your Honol~r. to o;l:; k IJ.Ihl:'lrl IJri .l.l l:he Provj nc:u ha ve to start :i ncrE:!asing th e:'! h~XC:'!:> , aJ.I :e r·:lng the !:axes of insur·ance companic,~s, in ordc,~ln to I·H'llp pay for· Lhr~ lrJ d 'inb ~n.:H IC(! ol 7 the Tran s-Canada Highway? SOME HON . MEMB ERS : Hear, hear! Wh at we are seeing, Mr.

Speaker, is the Government of Canada, wh ich ri ght now ls paying out $60 million in transportation for this Pr ovince a year bein g let off the hook - MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Th c,~ l1on . h:irn self lllelllb er· to this i. s not bil l. confining The han. IIJ(~Jnber· appe r.n·s I:o tH i! l:;~ !d. ng .~n oppor· tuni ty of debatj ng the rat1way wh ich is not beihg deb~le d at the present ti me. The'! hon. Hw me1ntH>.r' for· Moun 1: :-Jci.o Re11 Island. MR. flARf~Y: Mr.

Speaker, I realize it would be an horr•e->.ndous l::hing to d~::~bah:~ 1~.he r·aiJt.uay and the tE!aring up of the Terms of Union relating to Lhe r·a:ilway, but, Mr. Speaker, that is not what I am debating. I am de ba ti ng the Insurance Companies Tax Act and I am sub mitting to Yo1Jr Honour tha i: the ta xes for insurance compani es in th "Ls Prov ince are going to have tc) be inc reased , a1tered. I am sub mitti.ng to Your Honour that t.ax I 323 7 June 20, 1988 Vol XI Js going to have::1 l·.o ~H~ aJ. t:e'lt'ed and it is going to have to bE:~ aJ.tered tip . T d m f~ n t J t J.

Nl , '( o u t' H o no u I" , I be::~l:ieve, as a member of th:is : I o 1.1 ~; 1,, , 11ri . l: h r· ~~ ~; p l-0! c I~ l: o r:! x p 1. i'li. n rn y rE.~asons ~vhy I believe the tax of i.nst.tr'C:Hlt:t~ cornpr'ln"ic =!s ·i.s goi .ng t.o have to be,~ aJ.ter·ed up. ThE:~ r·eason :it :is going t.o have l:o be ,;.,li ·:E'!r'Pd up "i. s bE'!Ci'1tl~''~ l::hr:' amount of monE!Y paid by thE' Co v tH ' nrnE ! n 1.: of Canada. t:o i111P r'o v e Hw high1Ak1Y i.s nol:. enough. SOME HON . MEMBERS : He.;! at ·, hE!at·! MR. BARRY : It is approximately fiVE!

YE:'ars of what they are paying now, five years of the deficit of thE! rai.lway. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOMF HON. Mf:MRERS : H thH' , l·w a r ! DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKFR : Order, please! T h :~ h o n . 1: h r~ rJ! i. n :i. !> h:! r· o F H e d 1. 1:. h . Of~. COI..LINS: Mr. Speaker, thE! han . mE:rnbE•r makE•s <:1 s 1: a h->. rn e n t 1: h a 1:: h e f EH'! 1 s h E! h <.~ s the right to broaden thj s dE! bate, r~nd I havH absolutE~ly no doubt hE:~ feels that way, but in this HouSE! a metnber· 1 s r·tghts . are de l:er·rnined by Your Honour.

Unless Your Honour 1 s ruli.ng is challenged in some way, we abide by what Your Honour· r·ul.t:~s tn t.hat. r·t:~gar·d. Your Honour has ruled that no matter lAJhat t:he han. me1nber fE~('lls he-:: he1 s No. 59 R 3 2'3 7

a ri.gh l to do in tertn s of ltli s debate, Your Honour tlas ruled that he mus 1: confine ~ h:ltnself precisely to the narrow wording of this bill i.n third reading. Your· Honour has clearly ruled that and unless the hon . tnembt'H' accepts that, he is actually challenging Your Honour's rul ing and tha t would be out of or·der. MR. BARRY: To that. poj nt of order, Your· Honour·. Mf~. SPFI1KER : To thctt poj nt of order· . Mf~. BARRY : I UIO

u) d n E-~ v e In c h a 11 CO! n g c-:1 Y our· Hono1.1r· b11 l: t ''Joul .d br~ happy l:o chr..tlJ c-:~nge the :intc-?.r'prc-:1tat"i on of t: h c-?. r· u J. t~ !) f>r' G s e n L·. 1 y g t v c~ n b y I: h c-;1 M:i.n:i ster of Health (Dr·. Collins). Mr. Speaker·, I am delighted to see SOIIIf:~ pE:10pl .t~ fr·orn Por•t aux 8asque:~s ln tht:' gaJ ltiH'Y. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Spc,~ab~r, t.o lhe point of order·. They, like everybody elsE! .in this Pr·ov-i.nce, rnust be arnazed by the way in IJJhich the Minister of HeaH:h i.s tr·ytng l:o bloc!< debate. MR.

SPErlKE:R: Orde:~r, please! I am prepared to ru]e on that poi . n l: o f o r· ciEH· . The hon. thE:~ Mj ni s ter of Health r o s co?. o n d p o :i. n l: o f o r· d e r· a n d I: h r-~ po'int :is lAIC:~]] taken. I have rrHHlt:i.orlf~cl l:o l-.l'w hon. lfii~TIII:HH' on i:l'c L.3238 June 20, 1988 Vol XL l. f:~ a s 1:: l: h n?. c.;! o c c d s -L o n s t h a 1: h <-?. wa s straying from the narrow confines of t: hi s b i.l. J. and , if he c on t i n u e s to do that, I wiLl certainly ruJ e h i.m o u t o f o t' d E! r' . Thl';~ hon. t.h~~ rnf~inbc;!r for' Mount Scto - BE!ll Island. MR .

BARRY : T, Your Honour, intend to kE!E!p Lr·y ·ing. T. i!tm only htllnan and I cannot foresee Your Honour how far l. hr>. r·u l E'! s ·l:oda y <H'C'! go t ng to I:H,~ changed from the way :in which nlr~lflbf>.r 's hdVf :! bE:~en per 'lli'i.t. t:(!c/ on previous occasions to explain l:ht-~ .i. r· t't·?.r'lsons for' 1.~ sublll:iss·:i.on /:hoy g:i.tJ!'! l:o -1-.h:i.s House . r: i1 •'l'J 1-:~ d :i. F f -i_ c ul. t y :'i. n F o r· e s f?. C'! -:i. n g Your Honour's r·uJ.ings w:i t.h respect. l:o JIIY humblt-'!

H'L:I:c,'rnpl:s l~o gi.vE?. -~:ny reasons, Your Honour, but, of c: our's f~ , T JJJ:i.l. 1 J i. s ·t C! n t: o your· rulings and I wilJ now go back to ·Lryi.ng 1-.o df?.dl. IAJi.t-.h Ud.s bill which talks about altering the f<H'IIIS t'E~lal:.ing to l::hc-?. h:\XE!S of insurance companies. It does not matter, I can speak to either t-.axc-?.s or :i.nsur'<Hlce. I wo u 1 d 1 ike to speak to both . I attempted to point out that insurance rates are going tb go up if the Tr'iHls-Canacla 1-l:ighJJ.Ii:lY i.s noi: maintained, Mr .

Speaker, and taxes ar·c-?. going to go up i.f l·:he pr·c,~sE•nl: administration cannot afFo1nd to flkl :i. n t<.d n l·:I'H?. Tr·a n s --Ca nad c~ H·i. g ht~.Ja y . If this does not relate lo insurance ~nd l:~xrns into The Insurance Companies Tax Act, Your lion our· , IJ.Jt~ ll. , t w:i. l.l. do t h ~~ b f:1 s t: I can once more to t.r·y and relate i'l:: 1-.o l:h<'lt b i.J.J.. When the Government of Canada pays only f·i.tH:~ yc,'rH'!> de:~f:i.c:-i.l· on L:he ra'ilway, and gets off the hook i.~ f L H r· p c'l ~ri. 1'1 9 () n J. y r -j_ v !';~ y p i:H' :; No. 59 R3238

deficit on the railway, Mr. Speaker, then members opposite cannot be very proud of the agreement that they have signed. MR . OAWF : What hook an'! they on? MR. BARRY: ThE:~ hook thc1t the CovernrtH~nt. of Canr:·ld·'l i.s on ·is t:o nH)el: Ulf'! deficit of the railwcty every year. MR. OAWf : No, they ~re not on that hook . Mr~. B()RRY: Mr. Speaker, I refer the member opposi.b~ to - MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. member is out of order in the way he is debating this bill . MR .

BARRY : We 1 J, Your Honour. again, I have a.l1.11ays undersl:ood i.t to a pr illci: i.ce of this House for members in the course of deb a 1': e , i. f U1 P. y ;:n · e intpr operJ y inter·rupted, contrary l:o the r·uJ.e$ by member•s opposil :e , to attentpt in an a!"ide to deaJ. t.r.ti. ~.h t h.;~l: in l:e r·rup ·U . on <.'\ga i. n, Mr· . Spe al<er ·. That is aJ.l I wanted to do . T. IAt. :\n l:c~ d i:o refcn· l:h0 for' tllr H' Mj rd !' u~r of Transpor· tat ion to a s l:ai :enHHlf: by Lhe han .

Ed .!< Ni .eJ.son lAthan he was the Government House Leade r for the Gove rnm ent of Canada where he confirmed the Government of Can.~da recog11 .i.zed r.1 legal obligation under the Constitut io n to maintain the Newfoundland Railway . The Governmen t of Canada r·ecogn iz ed that constitutional ob li gat io n. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I. 3239 June 20, 1988 Vol XL The hon . the member is out of order. MR. BARRY : Okay, Mr. Speaker, that !Alas just l:o clot'll. l)t:i.l:h Uw For·mer· M-inistc'!r of Transportation 1 s pojnt .

Not~J , :i.F '( COi ll.d jusl : go wh et her or no t t here is cons 1:·1. 1:1.1 i: .i.o n ,, 1 obl j,ga i:.i. on, Speak er, th8 fac t rema ins j s on, a r.11r . tha t I h1-) c-;otH!!r 'l'ltn<H l·t: of Canat.la IAtt'l S prepar ed to conside r tha t t here IJ.Jas .:~nd l.:hHy IAJ(c~r'r '! pr'f :!pa.r·ed t:o pay an amount, Mr. Speaker, l:o gE:~t them oFF th•~ hook. MR . SPF.:AKER : Order, please! The hon . member is out of order .. He is deal ing wi th a completely different mat ter. We are dealing wil :h third read in g, 11

An Act To Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act . 11 MR. BARin : Okay, Mr. Speak er, I will get back I:o i.l:. T .~rn der :ll .i.n g IJ.Jit h Jnoney, Mr . Speaker, and I am dea li ng wit h 1:.: -\X<~:; and t am deal ing uli. th, Mr . Speaker, the fac t t hat there is only $7 uri .l.l. i.l)n go :i.ng to Port aux f:lasques. MR. SPEAKFR : Or·ciM·, please! The~ hon. dealing l:odr'ly. directly To ()tnE~nd Tax Act 11 • Tfl(,~III~HH' i.~> OU 1.: Of or'dfH' in wJth thE! agr·E!E:~ITIE!rll.:. of ( l: h a s a. b s o l u t e J y no t. h .:i. n g assod .ated IAr.i.th "An Act ·rhe Insurance Companies MR .

BARRY : Yc~s, Your Honour, aga:in '( have noi: had the opportunity to finish my sentence because what I was try:ing to say is that insurance taxes and pay me n t s u nc:l f>. r The t n s u r rHl c e No. 59 R3239

Contpani.c~s rax Ad:, ;~J.t-.houg h ·i.l": m:ight be paid d:irectly by COIOP•:lrli.<,1S, they coJ.1c~c: t .i. t from the general publ ic , Mr. Speaker. So that, resi.dent:s c:tll .:\round t:hi .s Province, in Port au Basques, in B-ishop's Falls, ln St. John's, ·in various railroad communities and communities where there are no railroads - pretty soon there will be no railroads anywhere, Mr .

Speaker - but right now I just give you, For· exa10ple, the three maj n railroad communi ties, I suppose, and po lnt out that although there will be money corning into those cornrnurd U .<~s, there wjJl also be money go ing out i.n t~xas, Mr. Speaker , or payments to insurance companie~. lrJhlHI one c: on s .i.d er· :; l:hcH 'c-:l ·i. s $7 n1iJ J ion go:i ng :into say, for· ~~xarnpl< ~, ~~ r.omrnun :i.1:y l..i.k<:"l ll:i.:>hop'!> Fa J. J. s o r· P o r t a u x R a s q tJ e s , t a x e s i:H't"" gl) i. ng l:o go up F !)t' t: hH r·~!S:i dents of these communi ties, f"lr•.

Speakt-:lr', noi : only ·i.n: >ur·arH :~~ taxE:ls, but other ta xes, persona) in com~-:~ i:ax ·if I Mr·. Spt""ake r· I i:ht-:! Pr·ov ince cannot afford to ma:i ntain the Tr·ans --Canad a H:i .ghl.r.Jl-lY becaiJse they never had a good enough deal . SOME HON. MEMBERS : That is right! Hear, hear! MR. PEACH : Legal fees will not go up . SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: No, legal fees are pretty good r·ighi: nou.J. MR. STMMS : On a point of p1··ivilege, Mr· . Sp(~rtker·. MR. SP EAK ER : Order, p]easel U2li.Q Jun(~ ?.0, 1.9BB Vol. XI.

A p o · i. n l: o r- o r· d 1,H . , UH'! h o n . 1:. h e PresJdent of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr· . Speab~r·, I r:1111 on r:1 point of · privilegE!. MR. SPEAKER: A point of pri.vilege, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : Be c au ~; e i. 1: -i. s v t' r· y c l. oar· to rne, thE• R<=!ll. Mr. Speaker, that the hon . rnr-:"!ITII:H'!r' For· Mount~ Scio Island (Mr. Barry) is breaching Uw pr··i.v"il.c-'!gi~S of .~-1ll. 1r1c.:>rnber·s of t.his hon. House. SOMF. HON. MEMRF.RS: H1~~dt', tJ('!i:lr'! MR.

SIMMS: Y o 1 ~ r· l-lo n o 1.1 r· h i.'l :; r· 1 1l. e cl t. h 1·:! rn c-:"! rn b e r· out of order at least on seven 0 C c C:\ :; :i.

C) n :; • r"'r • s p r;! a k (:! r• 1 i r r· ega r· d J e s s of the fa c t that thE! y l~lc'lnl : l:o pl<:1y pol.:i.t.i.cs bc-'!Cdl.ISI~' tht:H'E:~ arE:' soii"IE! peopJ.e j n thE~ 9 ctJ.l. ;H' y !": h t;! y I~Ji::Hl I~ 1.:0 t·:r y t 0 Hid k e an impression on, - AN HON . MEMBER : Trr·e:~spectiue. MR. SIMMS: - irr·espective of aJ.l of that, is the fact that l·:lle rul.E!~; of t:he House must be followed. I am sur·pr·ised thdt mernber·s oppos:ite and the House Leader (Mr. TuJ

k) oppos:Ll-.e ·i.s al.J.o1~Jing !·:Iris to continue becauSE! cJ.early the hon. TJH?.HlbN· ·Ls sho~.r.ring clisr'r:1spc;!ct. for· the authority of the Chair by c o n t ·i. n u o u s l. y s p e>. ~~ k i. n g o u t. s i d c"'! to this particular bill, outside of l:hr>. pt.H'i'llllt:~l":N'S of th:i .s b i.J.l. ~1 t' . S p 1::~ .:~ k H r· , "i. l: everybody . knows 0 f i ·. iJ I'! b . i. l. l_ i. S . the amendrnE:1nt is l'tlo. 59 ··i.:> ·impor·tr:-nlt l~hal:: what the purpose The p1.lt'pos~::~ of to requj t'E:1 thc- .:d.~ R 3 211.0

notices of assessment be issued only where the filed tax return of the insurance company differs in r:~moun t from the audi.l:ed retur·n. At present, notices of assessment arr->. s~~nl: l·:o ;:ll.J. coutp.uLi.c·:!S wtdch file->. a rE:!tur·n. MR. ElORRY: Th.~t i.s r,1xactl.y tAlh;'ll-. I am l·.alk:i.ng clbout... MR . SHIIMS : lltal is aJl t.h:is ac t sa ys. Nol :hi .ng else->.! J:t ·. ha~; l:c) <:lo 1~J:i.l :h the r·etur·n, the fot"m, tha t is sent i. n by l:hH ·i.tl$I H'•~n c0 company nothing to do with rail1A1ays, no thtng to do with high ways , no lhing lo do with anythjng else! Surely I Mr .

Sp<->.aker, in the parliamentary references and guides when they tdl k about the debate on third reading being very narrow and limited to th-i.s particular aspect of the bill, the re is no better example of abuse of that particular ruling and th~t

part icula r parl icunen tary reference and tradition than wha t ·I: he han. rneHtbtH ' for· Mount Seta i.s try:ing to do. He is simply tryjng to p1ay po1 il :ic:s 1~1 :i.t~h :i.t, Mr·. SpE:!akr=r· . Noth .ing more! Nothing less!

I hauR ind i catH~ already if h~ tMant_s to do it under The H).ghway f:)cf:, or · v.Jh ah~U(:H' i.i: i~>. :i.t : nd.9hl : bA a b it more relevant, perhaps it IYiigh 1: 0~. [ ~rl:i.d Wt ~ IAJOI.Il.c:J d() tha l: if we got tht·oug h th e othHr third r Had i.n 1_3 s , b u l : he con 1: :i. n u e s l: o abuse the rules of the House, continues to abuse Your Honour's authority, whjch I find to be most distasteful, qui te frankly. I arn ashamed of a member who stands up and shows disrespect for the authorjty of the Chair . SOME HON. MEMBERS: L3241 June 20, 1988 Vol XL• You should be ashamed of your own agreement. MR.

SIMMS: We are not ashamed of our own agr·f=:f~lllfHJI:. Do nol: bE: so foolish, my son, about the agrr::1efTIE!nt! We dt'e pr·oud of i-:l'lf:1 r'l<.:Jt'f~f'!lfl~:!nt I and U.JE! wJlJ show Jt, too, br::1fore the tlrno J, ~; 0 IJ Cc' t' . SOME HON . MEMRERS : Ht~r:~r-·, hear! MR . SlMMS: Hon. members will be burned by 1:. h :i. ~; , you n c·:! l'!(~ no i... IAJCHT y . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: You see, Mr. Speaker! Do you see what they are attempting to do? They are attempting to use this par "h cular· b.i.11, or· whatever ot:her bill they can find, to get into a debate on t.he railway agreement .

I haue said there are going to be lots of opportuni.1 -.i.es for t:hat. I am going to be calling the budget debate, which i.s wide open. tf the hon . members want to do it ttndcn· Or•dtH' 3, '( Si:d.d they could do that. No problem! But surely I M t' . s p ~~ i:t k e t' I ·i. 1·. h rl s i:l b s 0 1. IJ t. e 1 y nothing to do wj th The Insurance Comp.:ul'i . e :> Ti.~ x n c: 1: . T 1'1 .::~ 1: t s an abuse af the rules and jL cr ~r1 :a :i.n l y ·i.s r'ln ~Ffr·onl ~ to Your Honour•s authorjty.

I sugges t Your Honour· ·i.tnp lenu~n i'. th8 o l:her reference that fs in the par·l. .i..:tliH':!nl :ar·y r•e fet'!Hlce s; if l:he hon. member continues, if the hon. rnr ~111bt ~t ' wi .J.J. not. l..i.sten to your ruling, then Your Honour can order the hon . member 1-.o ta ke his se at. And that would be the appropriate thing to do. MR . SPEAKER : Or·der I please! No. 59 R324-l

r. "'m s .~ ~: :i. s r i. ~,~ c1 r-. h ~~! r· (,~ 1. ,, .. ) no po:i. n t~ of pdvilt-!ge . ThE~ hon. member is cons:iste;~ntly and persistently con~inuing a debatE:! that I helVe sc:dd is out of or·dc->.t'. 1\Jow, ·i. F th~~ hon. rnPrni:H~r· star·ts that, I w:iJ.l rlsk him to sit clot1.Jn : If he contirHH!S, I am going to name the hon. member. T h (->. h o n . t h e rn (->. rn b E:H' f n r· M o u n t S c i. o - Bell Island. MR. BAI~RY: Mr. Speaker, I have great respect for· Your· Honour· and grf~at. r·espect. for the ruJ es of this House.

A11 I d s k , M r· . ~) p e •'il k e r· , i s t: h a t t h €:1 y bE:~ applied faj r·ly and euen]y and equally to everybody. SOMF. HON . MEMBERS: Hear, h(->.cH' ! MR . RARRY : I w:i 1 J say t. o Your Honour that I h <.~ v e .:1 c c !0! p L r~ cl '( o ' 1 r· H o no u t' 1 ~; r·uJ ing, but I do not bel i.eve that T hi ·1Vl:~ bl:'l-:Hl s l:r·ay ·i.ng Fr ·om l..llhd i: r am entitled to debate on this bill . I 11ri.J.l 'l:r·y and r·ewor·d rny remarks to fall within Your Honour 1 s criteria . l have difficulty, because I am not sure I~<Jhat l:he cr·iter·ia .is, because it is not normal to set out criteria . MR .

SIMMS : He is pla yin g gam es, now . MR . BARRY : I wond er who st art ed playing games toda y? Whe n he st arte d off , he wan ted to go through from Order 3 in or·d er•, and th en S l.l t~d enl y rea] jzed we c ould deba te the Newf oundl and Rail wa y on Order 3 and yank ed j t back, Mr. Spe aker . Who was pl aying games ~h~ n? SOME HON . MfMRERS: R:i.gh'l: on! R:i.ghl ·: on! l.32ll2 June~ 20, 1988 Vol XL ' rl!r~ . RI1RRY: Mr· . Speaker, the Government HousE:~ l.odd!· )t' go 1: caught ou 1:.

He for·got WE:' could debate thir·d n1adings of b:i.J.l.s . n1e Gover ·nrn enl: Hous e Leader got caught out, and he ts notJ.J Lr·y i.ng Lo HJ· ~ ke Your Honour· cHl accomplice to bajJ.ing him out of h :i. s c,~ rn bar · r' as s rn E:! n t. , be c a 1.1 s ("! h c.:> 'i. s afraid to debate the Newfound] and Ra ilway in thi s House . SOME HON . MEMBERS : That . ls r·igh+ :. MR. BARRY: ()ncJ hf'! 'i.s as hdrn od of lhe 1-i.L:I ::l P money they got for tearing up Th E' Ter·rns oF Un:i.on iH 1d ge'I-: Li. ng l"id oF the Neto~Jf ou ndland l~aJ.lway. That t s UH~ only t'ed son t-:i 'Jdl : h(o! tu:il.l. not debate it.

MR. TOBIN : A poJ.nt of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SP EAK ER: Ord c-~ r·, please! A po ·i.nl : of or·d~ ·~r-, U JE! hon . l::hc"! Minister of Social Services. MR. TOBIN: I hr:\VI~ sat -l:hr·ough rnost . of l.:hE• debate this afternoon listening to w h ''1 1: .i. s g o ·.i. n g o n , a n d d g e1 i n t h e:~ me:~rnber for Mount Scio -· Bell Island is involved in the Terms of Union and the railway which is not r·c->.levanl: l:o -the debat e, as Your Honour has ruled on severa1 occas :i.ons in t(->.r·rns of l:h(,~ hon. member. He is continuing to do it, Mr.

SpE~ak(~!r', despit.E:~ your ruling, and I ask that he be brought to order. MR. BARRY: To that potnt of ordel~, M1~. Sp:~a k (H' . MR. SPFAI<FR: To l:hc, ~ po :i.n·L oF or ·d(>.t', i::h1 ,~ hon . No. 59 R324-2

l:he member· for Mount Scio - Bc-;!1.1 Island. MR. BARRY: Again I have to say that the TTH:Hnber for· Burin - P1acentia West di.d a good job for· l:.he people;! of Petit Forte, Mr. Speaker, who I had the honour to represent, in getting a r·oad to PeU t Forte undc.H' th<'ll: C19f'f~f~IIH'!I'lt, but~ he·=! should consider· the cost to alJ l: h n P r· o LJ .. i. n c f~ ;~ n d no L j 1.1 s ·t... I. h f~ benef:U .s of his const:ituents. l: 0 r· c·~ X a Til pl. c,~ , l~J h t:Hl I~Jf~ 9 to~ I: l: 0 l: h H r·c,d .cdJ saJes tax, tJJh:ich thE:!

Gouc'!t'rllflHrll: House;! l .. f:!ddc:!t' :;ki .ppccl ouE-~r·, 1.\JH tAri J 1 g10:~'1. a dtcHICE! to ta] k .:~bout: t'l~l:ai.l. sdl.::!S l:ax. Rul: nouJ we ar·e ta] ld ng about insurance cowpan'i.t~s taxc:!S and thL::~Y ar·e going to have to go up because mE:1'mbers opposit.e di.d not. get. enough morH.;!Y for tearing up the Terms of Union, did not get enough money for· railroading the railroad . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Rell Island . MR. BARRY : fhank you, Your· :~onour· .

I realize Your Honour is being pu1. i.n a di ff iclJ l.·t: pos .i.l::i.on, bu1·. [ask You r· H on o u r i. o k e e p j n m j n d that 1: tl ~~ p r• :) <: ~~ d t:~ n I~ s 1: h ;~ 1: ..:1 t' t-) s :=! l: h 1,~ t' c~ in ruJing wha t is in or·der· and uJha l: is no t .i.n or·dt-H' on 1:hi.r·d n~ ad i n g , ud 1 J e x :i s t f o r· t hi s H o u s e for· '" J. J. '1·. :i. nH:~ . MR. CALLAN : (Inaudible) . MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I am delighted to L3243 June 20. 1988 Vol XL ht:~iH' fr·om the;! rnc-?.mbc.;!t' for· BE~l1.evtH:~, because last year he had the opportunity to second a motion asking for the preservation of the Newfoundland Railway. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: T I~JOLil.d resolutJon l: h r:• I ill'! mb H r· oppor·t.unity ~H~. CALI.~N : 1. :i. k :~ 1: o r"' b 1. c~ 1:: hi s of May 13, 1986 l..t.Jhich lor· H: :!l.l~ =·vur'> h i~d LhE! of secondjng. Do you uJant to talk about sorne of l:hH th:i .ng~; yo1.1 supporl·:rc•d l..t.Jhen you were on this side? MR. BARRY: Mr·. ~)peakHr', do you knouJ something?

I supported the r·ai.l .l..t.Jay \..t.Jhen 1: '"ws on that. s i.de, and I support the railway now that I am on this side . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear ·, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Or·der, please! The hon. member is again out of or·df~r· . MR. RARRY: H11L he llli:\s oi.nl:f~t'jf~CI:.ing! MR. SPEAKER: f.

IAJ'i.ll. r·c~dd for· l:hc·~ f:i .nal. t:.i.ntP Rc::~auchesne SE~ction 712 (5), page ??.1., llJ!-J:i.c:h IA)d~) CjLIOI.:t~d by thE~ hon. member for Fortune - Herm:itage: 11 fh:i.r·d R'~ad:i.ng lhf~ pur·posE~ of the third reading is to review the b :i. l. l. · i. n -a. ~; f :i. n a l. f o r·m i:1 F l::t:~ r· t·.·. he shaping it has received in its ear·J. ·i.Hr' s t·.c.'l.g(-:!:>. " The han. member knows quj te IJ.JeJ.J he i. s s tr;:ly i ng IAldiJ o 1-f l~hCI t nar-·r·ouJ confine here. I would appeaJ. to No. 59 R324-3

the han. member bE:1causE:1 I do not t.~ota n 1'. l.: o n a HH:1 h .i.m, but I tJJ 'i 11 do so Jf he continues on that tack. MR. HARRY: With respect, Your Honour, my r·~~spc->.cl : for· yoLwsel.f i:Hld for· 1:h!'! C h cd r· tJJO u 1 d no t be r· E:1 d u c e d :if that \JJ!->.r'('! l··.o happ(->.n .

I: jusl: hope:! l·:hi:ll : when Your Honour doe s tha t, becaus~~ it way become nE!Cessary if I ('\ rn to b E:1 p r· e::1 v c:1 n 1: t~ d f r· o t n s p ~~a k i n g in thi s House - I intend to assert tny r·Jghl: .s i:\S <:\n .-i.nd:i .vi .dual Ml-f(l, dul.y E:'lect:ed for· the Dj strict of Mount Scto - B(-:111 Islt'\nd, and while I will try to reword my r·emar·ks, Mr·.

Speakc:H', r.o comply tJJi t h Your· Honour ' s criteria , I IAI'i.1l. j us i: d s k Your· Honour 1: o k o e p in rn:ind that Your Honour· wtll be setting certain precedents . 1 arn prepared to accept the consequences of speaking out, but i f Y o u r· H o n o u r· cl o c:1 s n o l: !oH~p arn nteflll-wrs oppos:ih! quiet, I f:1nl'.:i.1:.1t~cl l:o dr~i:ll. IJ,ri.l::h l:hH :i.r· :ln·t-~H·jections in thE:1 cout"Se of rny de bi'll:c :' . SOME HON. rJ1EMBERS : Hear·, hear·! Mf~ . RARRY : I h a v e g r E:1 at. r e s p e c t for· the ~3pt1ak<~r· .

Your· Honour· 'i.:; kno1~m as son1E~body tAJho knouts how to manage 1\l<HlE!t.ar·y <"'ff a ·Lr·s and T kno1~1 h<'! has concerns about the way in which the r.axes on insurance companies in this Province are likely to go up as a result of the inability of the government to pay for the ma ·in te na J'l c t:1 of l: he Tr'i:ill'l s -Canada Highway . Mr. Speaker, what we had as far as the railway was concerned was a per·petual obJ:igation, and what we 110lJ.l hdV P. d S f iH' ,;t S i:: hH h ig ht~li:l \1 J S c o n c e r n (-! d i s n o t p E! r· p e t u a 1 . M r· .

S pea k c-:1 r· , t he r· t:! lAid s a 1 e 9 .-:11 o p i. n .i. on I 3 2'4·4 Jum~ 20, 19!38 Vol XL f:i.l ed - MR. SPFAKER: Order, pl.ease! The hon. member :is out of order . MR . BARRY : 1 was r ~ad ·Ln g tn The Globe and Mail abou·l: Si ng c\por ·e, 1.Uh8re thEH'E:: is on e o ppositio n member. Maybe Your· Hono ur · ha d 1:he opportunl ty of meeti ng him on one of your p.;u ·1 i.aHJenl-.1H' Y t:ou r·s. Ther ·e was on e o ppo sitio n me mb er in Si . ng.:.pore , and eve r·y time he got : up m emb ers op posite would inte rj ect:, 1a. ugh , rant and roar l:o try and shou t him ou t.

The sa mE! thin g i s ha ppen i n g h t'.! r· e . W he n e v e r you get clos e to a nerv e, Mr. S pea k e r• , ·i. n d e b a t. e i. n t h l s H () u s e , you get member s oppos ite tr ying to d r· Ol~ltl y o u out .. MR. PF~CH : Singapore has nothing to do with - MR. BARRY: T h<.'d: ·i. !) no 1: 1: h !·~ 1~1.- .~ y p r:H' l. .i.r:~lflf! n t d l" y democracy tJJorks. It is noL even l:ht:1 I~Ji:lY l:ht:1 Car·bont:!ar· ,;ounc :i.l us od to work, Mr. Speaker. MR. PF~CH : The Carbonear council worked a lot beL 1-.l ~r· l:hf '!l'l than i. ·t doc's no1~1. SOME HON. MEMAERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr·. Speak<:~r·, dl.l.

I can say .is thai:: I bet thE! Carbonear cound.J. tJJer·e no-t as q u i c k to r· a :i. s e t. r:1 x e s now , or as quick even when the rnernber for Carboneclr was Ln, as government is gojng to be as a r·es u ll-. oF Uri. s Tr'c\1'1 s --Canada Highway agr<:~ement, or should I say t·:hi.s fl~eble ai- .r.C'!lllpl-. dl:. a Trans-Canada Highway agreement . No. S9 R324-4.

MR. PEACH: How djd you get on with the mayor and delegation at the time? AN HON. MEMBER: Oh! Doubly blessed, were they? MR. BARRY: Yes, IJJB d:ir·ections. bur·d~:!n of about. IJJere cursed in two It is like the double t~r.~xat.i.on t:h<:lt-. -i.s tal.kf~d MR. SPFAKFR : Or•df'!r', pl.c,~dSf~! (.)N liON . MfMBFR : (Tnrwd:ib]

e) the member fo1" Port de Gt'i.~

l) I'!. AN HON. MF.MRFR : Mi'll'' k ~d rn E:) J e c t E:H:l . Mf~. AAr~RY : Now. Mr. Speaker. we have heard e1ec ti. on com :i.ng into pl r.ty. Alt hough the Government House Lea.dr-H' accuse d rne of spea k-Lng pol iti cs. I have not mentioned once ln th is House the objecti ve of get ti ng a little slush fund on highways for the next provinc ial election . I have not mentioned it. and I clid not intend to ra ise it if election was not raised by members opposite. MR. SPEAKER : T ask the his r'elrrr.lrks MR. AAI~RY : hon . mE:~mber t·.:o Lhf~ boi.l.l . 01< ay. Mr ·.

Speaker·. to confine G(~l :l :i.ng bo:lCk l:o i. rlSIH't::ll'lCH . !(Jt'J have i-:tl] had the experience on l:r'i:lV c-'l l.l. j. ng l: ht~ Tt'• Hl s -C an .:td •~ H:i ghutay , as we meet one of these bi .g tr·ans por· t -t·.ruc:ks com :i.ng tot&Jor·ds us. of wonded ng whether our · i. n s tH'a n r: t:1 F>t' erni.urn h03 !> bc ~HH l po id up, because you never know 1..11h en yo u r.tt•e going to need .i. t on L3245 June 20, 1988 Vol XL the Trr.tns -Canada Hig hv.JdY tht~S(~ days. Mr.

Speaker, by thE! admission of the:~ Pr'c-?.rnier, the m:i.nister· for Newfoundland in the federal cabinet and the Newfoundland Minister of TransportaUon, 20 pE!r' c c~ n t o f t h c'! f r· c,~ i g h t-. c at ' r· i c.;! d ·i. n l·. o this Province is now carried by t·:I-H~ r·.:d.l .I~Jdlf. 1\lcu~J. that -i.s going to have to go somewherE!. Let us ,,,ssuntH -i.l: r..vi .ll. nol: i:ll.l. go onl~o i·:hH r·oads. but I t..~Jould say 1 1:, pE:>r' CE~nt dt l.c~<~·; 1: ·i.~; go :i.ng i:o go l:o r'odcls.

Now, 'if you get another· 15 Pl'!l" cc;!nt oF l:hc,~ vol .tiiiiH ol=- ft 'l>. i.ght. coming jnto this Province going onto :·.h: ,~ Trarn; ·CcHli:ldd l·i:i.ght~Jay. does Your Honour not think that he r~JJ. ll b ~-:~ c: h ~~ c !d n g 1: o ~; H H tAl h c-?. t h c-?. r· his insurance premiums have been iJH:i.d up bc,~for·c~ h(>. h:i.l :s Uw hightAii.~y?

And when you cons'ider that thE!f'E:~ dt'c->. 111any pr·oducl.:s and goods carried on the railtAJay which are hazar·dous you hdve chc-?.lflicals, you have rnclny dangerous i terns c atT:i. c'Jd i. n thE:~!> E:~ s h:i. pmcc'l'l t s -.. wh :i. c 11 are now going to be on the highway IJJith i:l. r·isk of i:lcc-:Ldc'!rlt and collison for the normal motorist on the high\JJay, make no wonder they brought in this Insurance Compani.e:~s Tax Act; l:ht:'Y t.o~J~H'e looking ahead to this day, and i~hal- . is l.o~Jhy thc;!y r~Janl: 1".0 gr:!l: thi1~d reading of this bill today. SOME HON . MEMBERS: l-1:-:!dt'. h~>.dt' ! MR.

RARRY: Ii: ·i.~; obtJ:i.ousl.y UH~ rno~;l~ ·i.111por·tant p:iece of J egis] aU .on on thE:~ Or·dc,H· P•"PI'!t'. nHX 1:

h) th:~ Rr,~gulal: ·i.on of Prjvate Trclining InstituU.uns. An (lc:l : To (lrrlfHll.:l TI·H~ Hospil-.al.s Act, and

An Act To Amend ThE:~ Nc- ~IAifor .lndland And l_dbr·aclor· Hydr·o Act. Next to those threE!, this is i-:h:~ 1nosi · . .irnporl:r :lnl:. p'i.c;!CC~ of No. 59 R3245

1 E!gi. s la l:·i. on befor·e Hlis l:hat coul.d be->. House. Why? br·ough 1-: Because LhH Covrn·mnenl: Housf:~ 1..:->.Hdl:H', 1.-i.kH thE:! Prern:i er, knows that as soon as thi.s ag r·ela men t l:hat: ~~l< l:> c,'!nl :c->.t·r~d into on the railway today is j, Jnpl.onu~n1 :c~d, look cn1l : for· yOJJr' insur ·anc:P. premiums; look out an Ilk\ k ~~ sur·~~ your i. l"l S IJ T' t:l 1"1 C 1'3 conl :r· ;;~c 1: j ~ pa id up, ·Mr ·.

Spf:~ai<E:!r, because l:.her·c ~ i t" .:> goi .ng l:o b!il ;:l gr· e<:lb H' Ita 7 a r·rJ on the highu1ays of this P r· o v ·t n c 1::1 • Mctintenance is partly taxes. of our· h.i.gi·11~Jay s y s h:nn paid for· by insurance DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : " Or·der•, please! A point of order, the hon. l::hf:~ Minister of Health. DR . COLLINS : Mr. SpE~aker, "lt . ·ls quite c] E:!ar· U·H~ 1: 1·: h :~ h on . lllf~mb en· has l:H:! ~~ n speaking now for approximately half dn hour, and l.:h".i .~> "i.:; on l:h·i.r·c:l r· f.1 ad i n g .

F. v H n to s p E:! a I< f o r· f i v e m:i.nur.(:!S on UJ"i.r·d t'l~ad"i.ng :i.:; u1o:;t unusual . Clea~ly wa are into ~ f·i.l.:i.bush~r·. Th.:-tl.: i.s obv:i.ous. Rlj[: the han. member iK so boring in h·is pt'c-:!~>Hnl :al::-i.on of l·:ht:1 fiJ:ibustc-:1r, !AJould he sit. do!All'l and g iur- :! u:; a b·i. ~~ of d bt•eak rHlci hdVf:! soruc-'!one ~1] s~1 gE~t up, perhaps the h o n . rflt.;! m b ("! r· f o r· P o r· t··. d ,,~ C r· a v ~~ . H ('! u.JouJd be much mor·e j ntE!rf:~sting in r3. f :i. 1 i. b 1.1 s t r-n• t h a n t. h 1::1 h o n . 111 ~~ m b c,~ r· , because he is making almost no new poi.nts .

He is t<.;!r·r·.i.bl.y, terTibly boring . I just rise on that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of or·drc!T'. l.3 /. (!.(j J IH)l'J /. 0' 19 8 B Vol XI . MR. SPF.AKF.R : To the poj nt of order, the han . U11 ,~ 1111-:1 rnb f.! r· for· Fogo . fJJR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, what we see again is, ;:~:; l:h~-:1 mc:!Jilb:H ' for· Moun 1: Sc .i.o sa i.d j us t. now, an j n t err up t ion . I 1~10 u l. d c 1. i't :; :; i: h ;:~ l". d s a n n t:! d l. e s s jnterruption by the Mjnjs te r of He~lll:h, d cl:i .!;p;:~r•ay:i.ng r·~~lll<:wk i::hal ·: is not worthy of him. What the hon.

Sc i.o is doing his right. the member for Mount is pr·:!r'fE:!cLly uJlt:hi.n AN HON . MEMBER: Lc,,t 1.1s do UH'! bills, close,~ the What House and call an E!lection . are you waiting for? MR. TULK: Ah! The good old backseater OVE!r l: her· 1,1 ! Mr. Speaker, what thE! han. g :Hl 1: J. r:lntrHl r·o s r'! on ·i. s Uw amount of t::i rne the member for Moun-t: Sc :i.o 80ll Island h~s been speaking. NotAl, obvious] y Your Honour· knOIAJS i:ht:~ aJIIOIJni·. oF l.:i.1rH>. LhE! hon. gentleman has, and he IA.d J.J caJ.1 ~drn i:o or·dt,H' IAJhe-~n h:i.s t~ ·i.m~~ is up, not the hon. gentleman.

He is taking over now from the Cove'!r'nrnHnl: House:' l..eddC'!r' IAJho .is sJumpted down in his chair because h (.;! c: o u J. d n o t r· d rn 1:: h E! t h ·i. n g s thr·ough this House that hE! wantE!cl l:o r'dnl l:hr·ough. OH:! hon. gentleman has taken over and what he::1 ·is .:.~1-_tfWipt.i.ng to do is l:h(,~ S<YIIrle thing as we have seen go on here all afternoon, attempt to divert us from the issue we beliE!Ve should be'! debated, and H1at Hd.s House should obviously debate, namely, t.he r·ailroadtng of the railroad. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. r;9 R 3 2 4-6

Hear·, hE:HH'! MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. I IAIO U l. d J. j_ k (.;! t 0 p 0 j_ n t 0 U t t. 0 1: hE! hon. member he has about nine rni.nutes 1(-?.ft to sum 1.1p . r..,R. BARRY: Oh, good! Ml~. SPE(.}KEf~ : ThE:~ hon . the member for· Mount Sd o ·- B.:~l.J. Csl.r:\nd. MR. 8(-)RRY : Your· Honour·, T hdd jus l gottE!n oi. n i~o t·he~r·e so IIH:~ p r· 1,~ 1. ·i.Jni . rhH' y r· H nlc:H' k ~; , have been so many i. n h:~ r· r· u p H . o n !; . SOME HON . MEMRERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARfn : J am sure members opposite, hOI~HWF:H', t..u:.i.ll, by ledlJl~ , pf>.rnri.l.: me to fully elaborate on my remarks.

Mr· . Sp<-?.<~k<-?.r', onf-~ of l:he things that is most important to the pr·eservation of de 1nocr ac y j_s a fr·ee an d open ex change of ideas. We have really seen tha t here today as far as the tax position of thi.s Pr·ovince .is concerned, and whe ther or not we are going to have ~ to r·a i.s e taxes i.n fu t1.1re years to raise taxes in future year s ~o pay for thing such as, for example, the maintenance of the Tr ans- Canada Highw~y. Mr . Speaker •, members opposite c r· i. 1: i. c :i. /. t'H I UHi! l . :i b ~ r· i:\ 1.

Adnd nistr·at.ion of Joey Smal]t.~olood for· eni :~H· ·i.ng :i.nl :o ~ Cl) nl :r· a ~:l: r·~!lat.:l ng t.o Chur·chill Fall s u.Jh:i ch 1~1 e n 1-. on for· :>:i. x t y y ~~a r· :; . T. do no l: know if they real i:ZE:l thai