Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 2001 (Sitting 36, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-36

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 36 -1:30 p.m., Monday, May 28, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, lion. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERII.LI, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, lion. GERRARD, Jon, Bon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATIILIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIIIYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER. Greg, lion. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, lion. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCIIUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.ll.l'. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. N.D.I' N.D.I'. N.D.I'. l>.c. I'.C.

I'.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. PC . N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.I'. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.I'. P.C. N.D 1'. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.I'. P.C. N.D.P.

233 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 28, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I ask for leave today to present the petition on behalf of the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Wayne Linton, Geoff Vandal, D. Chan and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an under pass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr.

Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lisa Shaubroeck, Ted Seniuk, M. Dewey and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support con struction of the an underpass of Kenaston and Wilkes. Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Doreen Lozinski, Gerald Rattai, Elsie Harkness and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr.

Selinger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Arlene Wilson, Pat Spiring, William Crew and others, praying that the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba praying that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba introduce

an act amending The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba Incorpo ration Act. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proxi mity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister

2332 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Ken aston and Wilkes. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave again to call for the reading and receiving petitions on behalf of the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed} I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr.

Speaker: Clerk, please read. *( 13 :35) Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth : THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1 .4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 miilion in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report of the Auto mobile Injury Compensation Appeal Com mission for the fiscal year 2000-200 1. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 27-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): move, seconded by the Minister of Trans portation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton}, that leave be given to introduce Bill 27, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba, and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented.

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2333 Mr. Selinger: I am pleased today to rise to give first reading to this bill. This legislation will require Manitoba Hydro to charge its customers connected to the provincial power grid the same rate for electricity service regardless of where people live in Manitoba. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us Miss Kate Donetz from Ecole Henri Bergeron. She is the guest of the honourable Member for St. Vital (Ms. Allan).

Also in the public gallery we have with us Bev Walker from Carberry and Gladwyn Scott, who are the guests of the honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). Also, in the public gallery, we have from Edward Schreyer School 80 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Bob Praznik. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Esso Terminal- Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, we have been provided information that there was a major gas spill at the Esso tank farm on Henderson Highway some time within the last month. Could the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) please tell the House when this spill occurred and provide details as to the extent of the spill? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I am unaware of the spill, but I will take it under advisement and get back to the .member. Mr.

Schuler: Could the Minister of Con servation then confirm that the spill took place April 11, that it involved something like 10 000 litres of premium gasoline, that it was the largest spill in memory? Could the Minister of Con servation explain why his Government did not tell Manitobans about this major gas spill, a spill dangerously close to residents' homes? Mr. Caldwell: As I indicated in the first answer, I am unaware of this, and I will take it under advisement. Mr.

Schuler: Can the Minister of Conservation tell Manitobans when his Government learned about the spill and can he tell us what the Department of Conservation has done about it? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I see that my response did not deter the member from his prepared text, but the same answer is in place. Esso Terminal- Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Speaker: The honoura ble Member for Springfield, with a new question. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): On a new question on a very serious issue, Mr. Speaker. For the past years the Minister of Labour has assured the residents of East St.

Paul that the Esso tank farm on Henderson Highway is safe. I quote from Hansard: There are state-of-the-art systems and safeguards in this tank farm; also, the Office of the Fire Commissioner would plan to bring in the equipment and personnel to deal with that situation. Can the Minister of Labour explain why it took hours for the East St. Paul Fire Department to be contacted after a significant gas spill occurred? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigrati on): Mr. Speaker, I will endeavour as quickly as possible to get the details of that information and bring it back to the House. Mr.

Schuler: An issue of this significance and the members opposite do not seem to know what is going on. Can the Minister of Labour indicate why she has repeatedly stated that the fire safety measures protecting residents are sound, when it took hours for the fire department to be con tacted on such a significant gas spill?

2334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2001 Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, it would be wrong of me to presume and to speculate on the specifics of the incident. I will get information as quickly as possible from the Office of the Fire Com missioner and report back to the member and to the House as soon as I have that information. Thank you. Mr. Schuler: I would like to ask the Minister of Labour: Will she launch an investigation to determine why the local fire department was not immediately advised?

Can she also look into how it was that they came to know that there was a spill and exactly who is in charge of this situation? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I will get all of the necessary and relevant information for the member and the House as quickly as I possibly can. * (13:40) Esso Termina l-Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, a very significant gas spill recently took place here in East St. Paul. Several thousand litres of gasoline were spilled danger ously close to local residences.

The Department of Conservation has known about this for well over a month, and yet the Minister of Con servation (Mr. Lathlin) has done nothing. Can the Minister of Conservation inform this House when he was advised of that gas spill and what action he has taken to date? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, if members opposite are going to be speaking off prepared notes saying they have already got the Question Period agenda set with prepared notes, they are going to have some difficulties. As I indicated at the outset of our- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The minister has the oppor tunity to not answer the question or take it under advisement. Mr. Caldwell: On the same point of order, the first three responses were to take questions under advisement. There are a series of notes that have been prepared and the members on this issue are going to be prepared as my answer was for the first three questions, that we are taking these under advisement. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne is clear. Where a minister has taken a question under notice, there is not required a

preamble or a postamble. * * * Mr. Maguire: Given the seriousness of this kind of a spill, can the Minister of Conservation or a designate who does know what happened in the circumstance, if in fact the Government was aware of it, tell this House why there has been nothing done to get to the bottom of this environmental action? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to say that I would be very happy to take this matter under advisement. Esso Terminal-Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, my colleagues have been raising this question and have not been getting a response from the acting minister. I am wondering if the acting Premier might take some interest in this question and outline what the policy of this Government should be in openness and identification of a problem like this when it arises in a community. Will one of them stand up and be responsible to the public? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): In terms of members on this side of the House, we pride ourselves on our open-door policies and on a continual dialogue with the people of Manitoba.

Members opposite

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2335 may remember a week or so ago there was a delegation in the gallery that members opposite wanted me to meet with after the session was over, Mr. Speaker. Of course we readjusted my

schedule so that I could meet, as Minister of Education, with that delegation. Members on this side of the House are very open and very eager in fact to engage the public of Manitoba on public policy issues. Mr. Cummings: This is not a matter of whether or not he is eager. They have a responsibility. Mr. Speaker, will the acting Premier stand up and provide some answers about whether or not he will give direction to the minister of environment to provide information to the public? Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, of course on this matter, which is an important matter as members opposite have articulated, on this matter as on every other matter, this Government is very pleased to engage the public, to enter into dialogue with the public on issues of policy, and we will continue to do so. Mr. Cummings: On behalf of the public, I find the answers of this minister embarrassing. The fact is he still did not acknowledge whether or not they would provide direction to the minister of environment and natural resources, now the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), I guess, under the amalgamated department.

Will he undertake to provide information to the public? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have been a member of this Chamber for 10 years and raised many questions on many occasions in the absence of particular ministers dealing with issues, and have been in situations where questions, very important questions, were taken as notice. The responsible thing is for us to ascertain the information. The members opposite want current and proper inf ormation; we will provide that as soon as possible. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on a new question. Mr.

Cummings: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On a point of order? The honourable Member for Ste. Rose on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker: For clarification for the honourable Member for Ste. Rose. The honour able member was answering the question. The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, are you up on a point of order? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that the minister was not acknowledging that they have a responsibility. I wish they would acknowledge they will take the responsibility to inform the public. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Government has certainly ex pressed its willingness to look into the matter and advise members opposite, indeed the public, of the facts as they are known. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Opposition House Leader on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The only reason I rise on this point of order is because the honourable member has already referred to the absence of a member. He has not specifically named that member, but if a member is going to be absent or a minister is going to be absent, would he not pass on his House books to the minister who is acting in his place, or is it they do not trust each other over there? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Ste. Rose, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Esso Terminal- Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, we have heard the acting, acting Premier tell us that the Government is willing to look into the matter. We have had the Acting

2336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200I Minister of Conservation tell us that his Government prides themselves in their open door policy. I would like to ask the acting, acting Premier: Why, if they are so willing to look into it, on December II of last year I asked the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) for an explanation why his department did not notify the communities in my constituency about a chemical spill in the Winnipeg River from which they draw their drinking water.

His colleague said, and I quote: I will endeavour to look into it today and tomorrow and to get back to the member in a very short while. Five and a half months later, we have still not heard back from this Government. I ask the acting, acting Premier if he will take personal responsibility to ensure that the residents of East St. Paul are informed about this dangerous spill. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as is common practice in this House, we will endeavour to provide a response to the member on the very serious issue as soon as possible. Pine Falls Paper Company Expansion Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Well, Mr. Speaker, as soon as possible. The residents from East St. Paul can wait, at least like my constituents, six months to hear from this Government. My question again to the acting, acting Premier: While his Government dithers on all of these issues, 325 new jobs in the Pine Falls area go waiting because his Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) again fails to act.

I want to ask this acting, acting Premier when this Government is going to put in writing and make a commitment to the forest resources, which will allow a new sawmill operation owned by First Nations people to come into operation. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I noticed in the course of the member's

preamble there was reference to three separate issues, which is the right of the member, but with respect to the specific issue of the forestry management in that particular area. the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) is actively working on that issue. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I would like the acting, acting Premier to explain why it has been reported locally, and I quote: That while the joint venture companies have received verbal assur ance, we gather from the department that the wood supply was there and they would have confirmation in several weeks.

It has been several weeks, and the minister has not yet responded. Can he explain why his colleague will let 325 jobs for First Nations people go to waste because ofhis inaction? * (1 3:50) Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, of course, this Government is very proud of the relation ship it has with First Nations people in the province of Manitoba. Honourable Minister Lathlin and his col league Minister Eric Robinson- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

They should be referred by their title, not by their given names. Mr. Speaker: On the same point of order? Mr. Caldwell: That is correct, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Conservation. Mr. Speaker: That should take care of the matter. *** Mr. Caldwell: As I was saying, the Government of Manitoba is very proud of the relationship it has with First Nations people in the province of Manitoba. The honourable Minister of Con servation (Mr. Lathlin), the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) are stalwarts in the First Nations and

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2337 Aboriginal communities in our province and bring that perspective to the Cabinet and caucus table each and every day. We are working with, as the member acknowledged in his questions, people in that region of the province to develop this project. East St. Paul Cancer Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Last week, in this Legisla ture, we were discussing the very high incidence of cancer in the neighbourhood of East St. Paul. As we have heard today, there has been evidence of chemical spills in this area.

I would ask the min ister whether he has investigated further the high incidence of cancer in East St. Paul and whether there might be any relationship to the chemical spills we have seen talked about today and the possibili ty of previous chemical spills. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, obviously the matter referenced in Question Period earlier with respect to a spill has no relation to the actual study that was released recently. I understand there was a relationship between some potential matters that occurred in terms of chemical between '94 and '96 with relation to that area.

That matter was reviewed. I also understand from memory, Mr. Speaker, the incidence of cancer with respect to that particular region is a higher than normal incidence of colon-rectal cancer. I have for warded inf ormation to both the WRHA and CancerCare Manitoba to review the findings and report back as soon as possible. Water Testing Chemical Spills Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary to the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) deals with his responsibility for testing water and the possible li nk between chemical contamination in wells. I asked the min ister whether he has tested, and the results of wells tested in East St. Paul, to determine whether there has been any contamination of these wells by organic chemicals which mig ht come from chemical spills. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, obviously we identified, both last year in this House and more recently, that there was a significant need for additional testing of priva te wells, et cetera, which is one of the reasons we reversed former government policy in order to provide a subsidy for residents to undertake tests, so it would encourage residents to at least do yearly tests of their drinking water. Mr. Gerrard: The importance of the role of the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) in being on top of chemical contamination of wells and the fact that we do not have better answers leads me to wonder whether the min ister has been using what is in the Thomas report is called dis cretion ary accountability. No, wait a minute. My question to the Minis ter of Health- Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13 :55) Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, regrettably the member is out of character today because I know he is very dil igent with this rule, but would you please remind him that a supplementary question requires no

preamble, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, members opposite should at least listen to the questions even though they have no answers. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all members that Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. * * * Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I was just asking the minis ter whether, in fact, in his answer he was not guilty of what the Thomas report describes

2338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 as discr etionary accountabili ty, that is deliber ately keeping accountabi lity vague so that he can be only accountable for the good news, and less accountable for the questionable answers. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, if this Government wanted to do what the other government did, and hide, we would not have put in place the Thomas commission that looked at the recommendations of the Si nclair report and looked at a decade of fai lure on the part of members opposite to not follow up on changes in the system, to look at systematic problems that occurred in the health care system under the watch of the previous government. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. We care about the people of East St. Paul, not like the people over here. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, the member referenced the Thomas commission which dealt with the Sincla ir commission which was a systematic fail ure of the health care system to respond.

We released the Sinclair commission and the Thomas commission and undertook to live up to those recommendations so the people of Manitoba could have a better and more accountable health care system. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Officia l Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable min isters that, according to Beauchesne Citation 417 , answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, when the water issues arose in this Chamber we put in place a task force that made a series of recommendations with respect to water quality that had not been done in over a decade, and we moved on two of the most significa nt and are working on the other recommendations of that report. When the Sinclair commission report came in we put in place the Thomas commission to look at recommendations to try to improve the health care system and to try to significantly move on it. This has been a government of action not sitting on reports. Canada-Mani toba Infrastructure Program Drinking Water Pipeline Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): To the Acting Minister of Cons ervation, I would like to table two letters. The Winkler Aquif er Management committee applied for funding through the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program to build a main conveyance water pipeline from Letellier to Winkler and Morden. This pipeline wouid provide numerous communities in seven rural municipalities with safe drinking water and act as the base from which other rural waterlines could branch off and would add to the preservation of the aquif er.

Can the Acting Minis ter of Conservation explain why his Government turned down the funding for this important project when the main priority of the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program was water supply? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I appreciate the question from the honourable member. I know that it is a constituency concern in his region of the province, and I appreciate that as a constituency politicia n myself. I will take the matter under advisement. I do know, however, that the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure agreement is a broad- Mr. Speaker: Order.

According to the rules, if a question is taken as notice, this should not require a

preamble or a postamble. Is the honourable min ister taking it under advisement or answering the question? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I will take the matter under advisement.

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2339 * (14 :00) Mr. Dyck: I am going to ask another question. He being a part of Cabinet, and I assume that they do discuss things at the Cabinet table, could the minis ter explain to the other communities that were applying for inf rastructure funds based on this pipeline proceeding what will now happen to their projects? This is a fairly broad statement here. Mr. Caldwell: Respecting your comments to my first response, I will take this under advisement as well. Mr.

Dyck: Can the acting minis ter respond to the Pembina Water Cooperative question of why the Ci ty of Winnipeg can access mill ions for a downtown project in a timely way, and our request addressing the quality and the quantity of water supply for seven municipal governments is turned down? Why can they do one and not the other? Mr. Caldwell: I know that the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program does have criteria in volved for community development and so forth. An Honourable Member: Tripartite. Mr.

Caldwell: I know that the priority area is tripartite, as one of my colleagues adds, with municipal governments as well. I know that a lot of the prioritization of the current infrastructure program is related to green inf rastructure and community development around those issues. I think that is very impor tant. I also know that funding support under inf rastructure programs as well as pretty much every budget area of responsibility for govern ments at every level, whether they be municipal, provincial or federal, are finite.

Those pressures force us all as elected officials to make priority decisions and choices based upon avai lability of funds. I know that we on this side of the House are quite proud of the choices we have made in health care and proud of the choices we have made in education, that is, to invest in this province. Manitoba Lakes Water Levels-Da mage Assessment Mr. Ha rry Eons (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, this spring, particularly last week, Tuesday and Wednesday, we had unprecedented high winds affecting the lake levels on our major lakes, Lake Winnipeg, Lake Manitoba, Lake Dauphin.

I direct the question to the Minister of Con servation (Mr. Lathlin). Have his people had an opportunity of assessing the damage that has been caused, both property and flooded farm lands? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, again being mindf ul of the advice you offered in an earlier question, I will take this under advisement. Mr. Enos: Mr. Speaker, you know that I try to be consummately fair with you and with members opposite. This again was last week. My phones are ringing about property damages to cottages, farmlands, haylands being destroyed.

I am simply asking whether or not somebody in the department is assessing the damage. Mr. Caldwell: I know the staff of the Department of Conservation and natural resources work very-Mr. Speaker, members opposite may not think the public servants in this province work hard, but we do on this side of the House. I know the members of the Department of Conservation and the department of natural resources work very dil igently- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Caldwell: I know the members of the staff of the Department of Conservation and the department of natural resources work very- Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 41 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

2340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2001 Mr. Speaker, this question was clearly not about the staff, whom we have a lot of respect for. It was about the minis terial level. Mr. Caldwell: The member asked if the department was working on this issue and I was assuring the member that the staff of the department of natural resources and Conser vation work very hard on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lakeside, on the same point of order. Mr. Enos: No, Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: I have to deal with the point of order raised.

On the point of order rai sed by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I have to rule that it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Lake Winnipeg Water Levels Mr. Ha rry Enos (Lakeside): On a new question, again to the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin). Both in the instan ces of Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg, there are man made operations at work that are putting artificially high water on the levels. I specifically want to remind him about Lake Winnipeg. Manitoba Hydro warned the then-government not to use Lake Winnipeg as a hydro reservoir.

I as minis ter intr oduced in this House a bill that prohibited Manitoba Hydro from using Lake Winnipeg as a reservoir. We are now reaping the rewards, so they had some responsibility on this. What is this Government doing in accepting the responsibility with respect to shoreline damage caused by those high winds as a result of Lake Winnipeg being used as a hydro reservoir? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro): I thank the member opposite for the question with respect to the impact of Manitoba Hydro on Lake Winnipeg.

The pre vious government initiated a study on that matter, and the study came back and indicated that in fact the regulation of Lake Winnipeg by Manitoba Hydro reduced erosion on the lake because the lake was not going up and down as much. Disaster Financial Assistance Spring Flooding Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, approximately 62 municipalities have made requests for disaster assis tance as a result of this past spring's flooding. Individuals and muni cipalities are trying to recover and are anxi ously awaiting the announcement of a Di saster Finan cial Assis tance program. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minis ter responsible for Government Services whether he can indica te to these flood victims and affected municipalities: When can we expect a disaster assistance program to be announced? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): It is a very good question. In fact, going back to last fall we had abnormally high precip itati on. We are anti ci pating, based on last fall, about $300,000 to $400,000 worth of damage.

We are currently assessing the potential claims from this, and as is the case we will be announcing a program, if that informa tion does warrant that. I certainly would encourage. through the member, members of the public to file any claims they feel might be applicable under OF AA, because certainly there has been some signifi cant impact on our municipalities in a widesp read area throughout the province. Eligibility Criteria Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I was wondering if the minis ter could indica te what the program criteria is for the OF A program for this year, such things as the maximums and deducti bles on the policy. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I am a bit surprised by the question, because the member is a former Minis ter responsible for EMO. We develop programs that follow DFAA guidelines, which are federal-provincial

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2341 guidelines. The member will know that there is a built-in sliding scale that involves payments by both individual claims and also by munici palities. I want to indica te that we are assessing that inf ormation now. In fact, I have encouraged people, and I will do so once again, to apply if they think they have a claim that might be eligible under DF AA coverage, and I hope to have an announcement very shortly on this matter before the House. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Speaker, the min ister really did not understand my question, I guess.

The question I was asking was, the DFA policy, what is the maximum coverage? Is it going to be $1 00,000 as it was before, and whether the deductible is within the detai ls of that policy? Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member I think is referring to some of the changes that were brought about in 1997 in the Red River Flood, actually at the urgings of the Opposition at the time. I remember it quite well. Indeed, there certai nly was some enhancement of disas ter financial assistance coverage.

I can indicate agai n, we are using the same guidelines that were used in 1997 and 19 99, although there was fairly restrictive coverage in 19 99, and we will continue to do so for anybody affected by this. I point to what we came in with last year in July with the heavy rainf all. Once agai n, the disaster program was put in place which helped hundreds if not thousands of Manitobans recoup some of their damages from that parti cular emergency. * (14:10 ) Canada-Manitoba Adjustment Program Payments Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, on April 17 the Minister of Agriculture announced in this House and via news release that she and her federal counterpart had come to an agree ment to put in place a support mechanism which would be called CMAP 2 which would support the farmers in this province for losses they had incurred due to trade wars that were going on between the Americans and the Europeans. The Ontario government at the same time announced they would put up their share and pay to their farmers their 50 percent of the contribution that would be provided under this program.

It is now five weeks later, and I would like to ask the Minis ter of Agriculture: When can the primary producers in agri culture expect a pay ment from this Government in order to help them offset the losses they are incurring during the trade war? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased that we were able to get additional money from the federal government this year, as we did last year, for our producers. When we made the announcement we said we had hoped the money would be able to flow in May.

I am still hopeful that we will be able to issue those cheques before the end of the month. Mr. Penner: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minis ter of Fina nce (Mr. Selin ger) then whether he has had discussions with his Treasury Board to allow for the flow of the provincial portion of the dollars under the CMAP 2 program to the farmers immedia tely, because there are farmers waiting out there for some cash flow that they can in fact finance their operation and spring seeding. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, we had hoped we would be able to flow that money sooner.

Unfortunately, there have been some delays with the federal government in putting their money through. We hope that they will have their issues resolved and we will be able to flow the money before the end of the month. Mr. Penner: The Minister of Agriculture has constantly been telling farmers across this province that before the end of May the money will flow and allow them to pay their expenses that they are incurring.

Can the Minister of Agriculture tell me whether her Treasury Board has assured her that she could actually write cheques today for the provincial portion and pay farmers what is due them that she promised she would pay? Ms. Wowchuk: I can assure the member that the Manitoba money is in place, has been approved

2342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200I by our Treasury Board. We are waiting for the federal government to make some decision. We hope that their money will be flowing to Manitoba and we can issue those cheques before the end of the month. Esso Terminal- Henderson Highway Gas Spill Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I am just going to provide the House with an update on some of the questions that were taken under advisement earlier. I have a note, and it is very quick. Mr. Speaker, as one of my colleagues noted, we want to be out front about this parti cular matter.

On April II in East St. Paul there was a release of approxima tely I 0 000 litres from an Esso terminal. That terminal is a self-contained facili ty which is constructed in order to contain spills of this nature. Over 6400 li tres were immedia tely recovered on the II th. An environmental officer attended there on that day and the site was toured again last week. This Government is doing its work on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Esso Terminal- Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Acting Min ister of Conservation.

If all is so well, as we hear him say, why did the Department of Conservation not notify the neighbours of what was going on in their own backyard? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): I, too, have received some inf ormation from the Office of the Fir e Commissioner. The fact is that the product, the I 0 000 litres, went onto the ground and some into the sewer system of the facility. As the acting minis ter of the environment has stated, this facility has its own self-contained storm sewer system that then goes into an oil -water separator.

The oil-water separator would have then separated the oil from the water within the self-contained sewer system with the Esso facility. None of the gas that was spilled would have gone into the storm sewers that were part of the residents' storm sewers. So there was no need for an alert, because it was all self-contained. Environmental Hazards Communi ty Notification Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Since the Government today is so quick at providing answers, I would like the minis ter, the Acting Mini ster of Conservation, then to tell my constituents, who draw their water from along the Winnipeg River, why, after five and a half months, he has yet to answer, and, secondly, why those communities were not done the courtesy of being noti fied when Winnipeg Hydro spilled toxins into the Winnipeg River, their water supply. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, I am very grateful in fact for department staff, the staff of the Fi re Commission er's office, the staff of Conservation and natural resources for providing responses so quickly to members opposite when they are asking the House. I think the staff does an excellent job in this regard. I am very much apprecia tive of it, as I know the Minis ter of Labour (Ms. Barrett) is. As for the issue raised by the Member for Lac du Bonnet, I believe that that question was addressed earlier when it was asked earlier in this session and it was taken under advi sement by the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Chomiak).

Esso Termina l-Henderson Highway Gas Spill Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to either the Mini ster of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) or the Minis ter of Labour: Why did it take up to four hours before the East St. Paul Fi re Department was called to the situation at the East St. Paul tank farm when it has been confirmed that I 0 000 li tres of premium gasoline was spilled? Why was the East St. Paul Fi re Department not notified of this situati on? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigrati on): Mr.

Speaker, the Of fice of the Fi re Commissioner gets involved directly when there is a fire. The Ci ty of Winnipeg Fi re and Paramedic Services and the Office of the Fi re Commissioner were on standby. There was no fire . There was no movement of the gasoline into

May 28, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2343 anything other than the self-contained Esso faci lity water and sewer system. The City of Winnipeg and the Office of the Fi re Com missioner were on standby. They were not needed because the facil ity's own resources were able to handle it. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, then I would like to ask the Minister of Labour- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Springfield, on a new question. Mr. Schuler: I would like to ask the Minister of Labour, first of all, there is no contract between the- An Honourable Member: Question. Mr.

Schuler: On a new question, there is no connection now between the Esso tank farm and the City of Winnipeg fire department. Perhaps she means the East St. Paul Fire Department. After approximately four hours, the East St. Paul Fire Department was notified and did come out, and there seemed to be a need for them at that time. Perhaps there was a breakdown in this great communi cation strategy of this minis ter between the East St. Paul tank farm and the East St. Paul Fire Department. They should have been notified right away. Why was there such a delay? Ms. Barrett: I will look into why the East St.

Paul Fire Department was not notified until several hours later, if it was not, because we have already experienced today, from the Member for Springfield, putting inacc urate comments and statements on the record. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. * (14: 20) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Beauchesne's 41 7: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr.

Speaker, out of the 10 000 litres of fuel, I notice with my arithmetic that there are still over 3000 litres of fuel missin g, so I think it is 3600 litres of fuel that are still missing that they do not care about. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind all honourable members that members in this Chamber are all honourable members, and the inf ormation that they bring forward is taken as facts. On this point of order, I would say it is a dispute over facts.

I would just like to remind all honourable members that every member in this House is an honourable member, and, to the best of their knowledge, the inf ormation they bring forward is a fact. * * * Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, in response to the issue that was raised by the Government House Leader in his point of order, there were 10 000 litres spilled; 6400 litres were recovered from the ground and the other 3600 litres went into the self-contained storm sewer facili ty system and was separated out, oil from water, at that point, on site, totally self-contained by the Esso facility. Mr.

Speaker, in response to the Member for Springfield's question, I will endeavour to find out why the East St. Paul-if the East St. Paul Fire Department was not notified for several hours, but the Ci ty of Winnipeg fire department, which the Member for Springfield knows has all of the equipment necessary and the Office of the Fire Commissioner were notified immed iately. Esso Terminal-Hender son Highway Gas Spill Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Given this rather inappropriate answer to the fact that two-thirds of the product was cleaned up and another third of it was still in the sewer system

2344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 on this kind of a significa nt spill, does this Government- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Maguire: Regardless of the fact of whether or not this was a self-contained unit with four hours from the time lag of notifying the fire department, does this Government believe that 800 gallons left after even the cleanup fact would not have caused repercussions all the way to downtown Winnipeg if there would have had a match thrown into it? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr.

Speaker, if there was a delay, it was a delay of notification of the East St. Paul Fi re Department. There was no delay in notification of the Office of the Fire Com mis sioner or the Ci ty of Winnipeg fire depart ment. They were notified virtually immediately. They were on standby from that point on. The 10 000 litres-I do not know where the member gets 800 missing litres because- An Honourable Member: No, it is 800 gallons. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Gallons, sorry.

Between the pickup of 6400 on the ground and the rest of it going into the fully self-contained by the Esso facili ty storm and water sewer system, all of the amount was accounted for. There was no fi re, but the Office of the Fir e Commiss ioner and the City of Winnipeg fire department were on standby and on alert and prepared to deal with any eventuality had it occurred. It did not occur, and I want the residents of East St. Paul to know that it did not occur. There was not a dis aster.

It was prevented by the good services of the Esso facili ty, the Ci ty of Winnipeg fire department and the Office of the Fi re Commissioner. Point of Order Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, often in Question Period words get thrown back and forth in this Chamber, and I want to indi cate that last Thursday some words were thrown at me by a member opposite which were not nice. What I want to indica te is the member very kindly came up to my office after to apologize for those words.

I just wanted to say that in this House sometimes the public does not see the honour and the dignity that is expressed by most members most of the time. I just want to say that last week's episode was an example on the part of that parti cular member to the best that we see in this House, the best kind of behaviour. I want to take my hat of f to that member and to the way he showed the decorum and the dignity. I hope to be a better member as a result of watching his example. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable member for the clarifica tion. *** Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Darwin School Cabaret Night Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Darwin School held its cabaret night this month at Norberry Community Centre auditorium, an annual event that parents and grandparents do not miss. This jazz band concert, an idea started by John Patri cia n, school principal, when the band needed funds for its programs several years ago, is the culmination of a year's work for Darwin School's various bands. The event showcased the Grades 7 and 8 and Senior 1 concert bands as well as the junior and senior jazz bands.

The evening of f ered music, snacks and beverages, and other activities, such as a sile nt auction, thus giving the audience an opportunity to mingle between band numbers. The music varied to please all tastes, including the classic rock hits "Louie, Louie" and "Rockin' Robin." Lesley Morris Meunier, Darwin School band teacher, worked enthusiastically with her students to present this annual evening of enter tainment. It is another example of the fine work being done by students and teachers in St. Vital School Division to showcase young people's talents.

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2345 Congratulations to Darwin students and staff for offering another successful event. Bravo to the St. Vital School Board for its support for the music program in its schools. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. John Friesen Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, this past April 30, residents of the Steinbach com munity and indeed all residents of Manitoba were shocked to learn the detai ls of a vicious beating suffered by Steinbach resident John Friesen.

The wounds inflicted on this 77-year old Manitoban were shown in detail, and I am sure left a disturbing impression on those who saw them. Today I am pleased to inform the House of an incredible recovery and a story of deter mination. Recently, Mr. Friesen returned to his business, and while not fully recovered, is making tremendous progress as he battles the physical and mental scars that remain. Mr. Friesen is an example of what a determined human spirit can achieve in difficult situations. Through this difficult time he has been strengthened by a deep faith and by his family and friends.

In a statement prepared by Mr. Friesen, he also offered thanks to the many well-wishers, the flowers he received, the cards, gifts, phone calls and visits. Despi te the difficulties he has suff ered, he has not allowed his experience to lead to anger. Rather he has stated that he does not hold anger towards those responsible for the incident. Yet the news is not all good. Understandably, Mr. Friesen noted in a recent interview that he still lives with some fear following his attack. He has suff ered nightmares and looks over his shoulders more these days and is more conscious in locking doors. So, Mr.

Speaker, while Mr. Friesen is on the road to recovery, this Government has a long way to go to ensuring that Manitobans can feel secure in their homes, in their communities and in their place of employment. Initiatives and a plan designed to reduce the seemingly increasing occurrences of violent crime within our communities must become a priority for this Government. On behalf of all members of this House and all Manitobans, I would like to thank Mr. Friesen and wish him well in his continued recovery. Thank you. * (14: 30) Heritage Park Playground Structure Mr.

Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I am pleased to rise today to bring all members' attention to a wonderful community project that was opened last week. The official opening of the Heritage Park new playground structure on Friday was a true school and community event. The new structure is multicoloured, with slides, swings and many other activities for children. It meets the new standards for safety with appropriate ground cover and equipment. I understand this project cost almost $60,000, with assistance coming from the City of Winnipeg, school division, Province of Manitoba, and of course lots and lots of fundraising.

The parent council undertook to raise a majority of the funds necessary to complete the project over the last two years. I would like to thank all those people who donated time, effort and of course money to make this project possible. Of particular note are: Sherri Sweetland, who was in charge of fundraising for the activity; Doreen Devries, the parent council treasurer; Daren Jorgenson, the parent council president; and all members of the parent council itself. I would also like to thank Heritage Park Principal Gail Surman, who has assisted with this project from the outset.

This wonderful facility will be a true asset for the children attending Heritage Park School and those growing up in the neighbourhood. I would like to thank all of the people who made this project possible and for the legacy they are leaving to all citizens of Assiniboia. Thanks for a great effort. Farm Family of the Year Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Hodson family from Lenore,

2346 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 Manitoba, on being named the Red River Exhibition Society's Farm Family of the Year for 2001. The outstanding dedication this family has shown toward the growth and success of their family farm operation demonstrates their skill and ability in the area of agriculture and their willingness to be strong stewards of the land on which they live. The Hodson family has developed that original quarter

section of land into a 5000-acre, 475-head livestock and grain operation. Today the farm is run by Innes Hodson, his wife Joan and their three sons Jonothan, Jason and Jamie. Their two daughters, Jody and Janelle, have both moved west to pursue teaching careers. In addition to their expertise in agriculture, the Hodson family is very actively involved in their community. Innes Hodson has served as director of Keystone Ag Producers and the Manitoba Beef Commission and chaired the local UGG for 25 years.

Joan Hodson has been a strong supporter of her children's community activities, has long been a member of the Lenore Women's Institute and is a member of, shall we say, the Virden experienced ladies precision skating team, an example of what this lady does to relax. In addition, the Hodson family has hosted nine exchange students through the International Agricultural Exchange Association. Both Innes and Jonothan are members of the Woodworth Fire Department. Jason and Jamie have also contributed their time to volunteer fire duty.

Jonothan is currently the director of the Manitoba Angus Association and Jason has started a community church in Kenton. Mr. Speaker, I could go on and on about his family's list of activities and achievements. It is truly rewarding to see that a family which con tinually gives so much of themselves has been rewarded for their hard work and generosity. It is therefore with great pleasure that I congratulate the Hodson family on receiving this well deserved recognition. Thank you. Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, on April 12 , 200 1, I had the great pleasure of attending a ceremony honouring the recipients of the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal. This presentation was a wonderful occasion for the members of the 17 Wing and its lodger units and 'D' Division RCMP receiving the medal to be formally recognized and appreciated by their country for their important contributions to peacekeeping efforts. Making the presentations of the 437 Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medals were the Honourable Peter M. Liba, Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba; Brigadier General D.

Tabbernor, Deputy Commander Land Forces Western Area; Assistant Commissioner T. W. Eggleston, Commanding Officer 'D' Division of the RCMP; and Colonel D. C. McLennan, Wing Commander, 17 Wing Winnipeg. Inspired by the 19 88 awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to United Nations Peacekeepers, the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal was created to acknowledge the efforts of Canadian peacekeepers.

This includes all serving and former members of the Canadian Forces, mem bers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other police services, and Canadian civilians who have upheld the 50-year tradition of Canadian peacekeepers. From all members on this side of the House, would like to congratulate our recipients for their courage and for their accomplishments and contributions to peace. We applaud your com mitment to helping people in war-torn countries to have the opportunity to live in a safer place. Your new medal should be worn with pride, knowing that you have helped make the world a better place.

I would also like to thank the family members of our peacekeepers, many of whom were in attendance at the ceremony, for their ef forts in overcoming the hardships of separation and for their ongoing support. Mr. Speaker, 17 Wing CWO Frank Emond is also to be com mended on his superb efforts in the organization of this parade. Again we thank you. We are all proud of your accomplishments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2347 ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before going to Supply, I wonder if you could canvass the House to determine if there is leave to begin the Estimates in the Chamber for Intergovernmental Affairs at approximately 3:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to commence the Estimates at approximately 3:30 p.m.? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you please call second readings of the following three bills in this order: 20, 15, 23.

SECOND READINGS Bill 20-The Farm Products Marketing and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton), that Bill 20, The Farm Products Marketing and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur la commercialisation des produits agricoles et modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to the committee of this House. Motion presented. * (14: 40) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased at this time to put a few comments on the record on the second reading of The Farm Products Marketing and Consequential Amendments Act. If we look at agriculture, it is an important multibillion-dollar industry in Manitoba, and the regulated farm commodities have contributed significantly to the province's economy. These commodities are regulated to varying degrees, ranging from market quotas to pricing and promotion. There are eight farm commodities regulated under the current act.

These commodities include the poultry sector, representing broiler chickens, turkeys, eggs and hatching eggs, as well as milk, hogs, honey, table eggs and root crops. Supply management has demonstrated its benefit to these sectors by stabilizing producers' income and ensuring a reliable supply for our industry partners. It has enhanced the viability of the family farm, thereby strengthening the social and economic fibres of our rural community. The current act, which was introduced in 19 64 and is approximately 40 years old, has gone under several piecemeal amendments over that time.

Across Canada, most other provinces have revised and updated their marketing legislation. The proposed act reflects similar legislation in Alberta, Saskatchewan and in Onta rio as well as several provisions from our current provincial statute. In general, Bill 20 provides the following: It allows plans to be established that promote, regulate and manage the production and the marketing of farm products. It also allows plans to authorize the boards and commissions to make regulations subject to certain conditions. The Manitoba Council will continue to supervise the boards and commissions.

Persons who are affected by the decisions, orders or regulations of the board or commission can appeal to the Manitoba Council. Enforcement provisions have been updated to reflect more recent provincial legislation as well as legislation in other provinces. As well, federal authority respecting interprovincial and export markets will continue. The purpose, as set out in Bill 20, is to provide for the promotion, regulation and management of the production and marketing of farm products in Manitoba.

This is accomplished through the establishment of plans for each farm product which maintains the authority of the board or commission to make regulations and orders under certain conditions and limitations. These regulations and orders range from the establishing of price, to pooling, quotas, levies, registering and exempting persons and quantities. To ensure that the boards and commissions operate in accordance with their plan, the Manitoba Council continues its supervisory functions, including hearing appeals on decisions and regulations and, as well, on orders made by the board and the commission.

2348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 Enforcement provisions have been updated and are consistent with the provisions of the livestock industry development act, The Animal Care Act and The Dairy Act. These provincial acts were introduced and passed within the last few years. The proposed legislation is our com mitment to support farm families who produced their products and to ensure a stable viable growth in Manitoba's agriculture industry. Mr. Speaker, with these few comments, I would like to recommend Bill 20, The Farm Products Marketing and Consequential Amend ments for consideration.

I certainly look forward to hearing comments from the other members of this House as the bill proceeds through the second reading and eventually look forward to hearing comments from the public, but certainly look forward to the passage of this bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), that the debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 15-The Mortgage Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton), that Bill 15 , The Mortgage Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les hypotheques), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of the House. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to make some comments about Bill 15 , The Mortgage Amendment Act. The purpose of this bill is to protect consumers who borrow money through reverse mortgages. Reverse mortgage loans, Mr. Speaker, based on equity in a consumer's home, are unique in that they are targeted primarily at seniors. Interest rates tend to be higher than those of conventional mortgage loans, and typically the loan is not repaid until the borrower dies or sells the home.

As there are usually no payments made during the loan, the amount of interest and total debt can accumulate very quickly. Mr. Speaker, reverse mortgages are a relatively new concept in Manitoba and in Canada. Prospective borrowers may not always appreciate the unique features of this type of a loan. Consumers may unexpectedly find the reverse mortgage loans have depleted all or much of the equity that they have in their home, leaving no source of funds for any further needs.

The rate of depletion of equity will depend on the amount and the length of the loan, the interest rate, and any appr eciation or depreci ation in the value of the consumer's home. Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of the amendments to The Mortgage Act is to ensure that prospective borrowers of reverse mortgage loans receive detailed disclosure that enables them to make informed decisions about entering into a reverse mortgage loan before committing themselves.

The amendments will require lenders to provide details such as the interest rate, the amount of interest that will accumulate during the loan, prepayment penalties and the effect of various rates of property appr eciation and depreciation on the borrower's equity. The required disclosure will also point out the risk that the loan may deplete or consume the homeowner's equity and will recommend that the borrowers obtain legal or financial advice or both before signing a reverse mortgage. Mr. Speaker, the amendments stipulate that the required disclosure be given seven days before the borrower signs the mortgage.

This will provide borrowers with a seven-day cooling-of f period. Reverse mortgage lenders failing to meet the disclosure requirements will face stiff consequences. Where the borrower signs before the end of the cooling-off period, or where the disclosure is not provided or contains important errors or omissions, the borrower will be allowed to prepay the loan at any time without penalty and without interest. In addition, Mr. Speaker, the amendments include several offences such as failing to

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2349 provide the disclosure, advancing funds where the borrower has signed the mortgage before the end of the cooling-off period, and failing to refund any interest that has been paid on the loan where no interest is payable due to the lender failing to comply with the disclosure require ments. Mr. Speaker, the amendment will also protect borrowers by limiting the maximum debt under their reverse mortgage loan. Where the total debt exceeds the value of the property, the borrower will be liable for no more than the value of the property.

Consumers experiencing problems with reverse mortgages will be able to complain to the Consumers' Bureau which will be given the authority to investigate complaints and mediate disputes between the lender and the borrower. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, upon application by the borrower or lender, the court can review this matter the proposed amendments to The Mortgage Act will provide important protection for those who are thinking of this type of loan. I therefore recommend Bill 15 , The Mortgage Amendment Act, to the honourable members of this Legislature and look forward to their support. * (1 4:50) Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 23-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that Bill 23, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, this is a very important bill. It is our second bill on The Highway Traffic Amendment Act. It deals with a number of imp ortant initiatives, particularly closing a number of very significant loopholes in our licensing registration. Mr.

Speaker, we have all heard the expression of a loophole you could drive a truck through. This is a loophole that you could drive a grader through, a front-end loader through, a tractor thro ugh, because, in fact, in Manitoba, currently you do not require a licence to drive any of those kind of vehicles. This is creating difficulties on our roads in terms of people operating these items without a licence. It allows people who have suspended licences to operate this type of equipment. It also is leading to difficulties in applying our drinking and driving sanctions.

This Government has decided through this bill to propose closing that loophole. I want to give you a very clear picture of the situation we are faced with currently. If you drive a car, you need a licence. If you are on an off-road vehicle and you are on a road, on our highway system, you need a licence. If you drive a truck, if you drive a farm truck, you need a licence. But, if you are driving a 20-ton road grader, you do not need a licence. If you were driving a front-end loader, you do not need a licence. Driving a tractor-a combine-you do not need a licence to drive on our highway system.

Quite frankly, when made this announcement, the No. 1 reaction that I received from people was: I did not realize that. A lot of people were not aware of that fact. In fact, there was a woman who was involved with a street sweeping vehicle here in Winnipeg who contacted our office some time ago. She was shocked to find out that the driver of the vehicle, actually, I should say, the operator, was not licensed. She was very shocked to find that. I want to give you a clear indication of what the impact of this will be. First of all, the only requirement currently is that an operator be 16 .

This applies on our provincial trunk highway or provincial road system. We are basically going to be requiring that people have a licence; in this case, the intermediate stage in the Graduated Driver Licence portion. This will not impact on municipal roads. We are recognizing the parallel to what is currently in place as well. It also will

2350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 not apply to the operation of machinery, particularly farm machinery, on the farm itself. To give people a fairly clear idea on the farm side, Mr. Speaker, farm-plated vehicles require a licence for operation. Under the Graduated Driver Licence system, people were required to have an intermediate stage licence, which you can receive as early as 16 years, 3 months. That will be the requirement under this legislation: that people be in the intermediate stage. I want to stress, as well, a couple of other items that this will ensure.

First of all, there is a real loophole in regard to the impaired driving measures and countermeasures that are in place, Mr. Speaker. The bottom line here is that operators of heavy construction equipment and farm implements currently escape the adminis trative sanctions under the impaired driving countermeasures program. This is because of the narrow definition of motor vehicles under the act. As a result, an impaired driver on one of those vehicles is not subjected to the same sanctions as the driver of a motor vehicle.

There is no immediate 24-hour suspension and no administrative licence suspension or vehicle impoundment. That is something that creates some difficulties. While we are not proceeding with the impoundment porti on, this will ensure that the 24-hour roadside suspension and the adminis trative licence suspension portion of our legis lation will apply. I think, if it is unacceptable to have drinking and driving for a motor vehicle, most people would say that it is equally unacceptable for anybody operating this kind of heavy equipment to be impaired. There are some other issues in this bill.

There is a rewrite of the vehicle equipment sections. We have been rewriting the act over the last number of years; this is part of that. We are bringing in more consistent provisions and ensuring that they are much clearer. We have amendments here, motor carrier amendments. This is also part of the legislation, as well. We are introducing a range of amendments in this area, which will clarify current national safety code requirements and create new offences and increase fines for violation of motor carrier safety regulations.

I want to stress that the vast majority of motor carriers in the province are indeed very responsible. There is a very small percentage that are violating these regulations. The bottom line is, though, we are making sure, through this bill, that the sanctions are not just seen as a cost of business, that they are going to be real sanctions for those that are not operating in a safe manner. I want to get back to the original point of this bill. It is part of the ongoing rewriting of the legislation, and I want to stress again that we believe this is reasonable legislation.

It is being brought in in advance of the graduated drivers' licensing system, so it certainly gives plenty of advance notice to anybody that is operating this type of equipment on our highways system without a licence. They will be able to obtain that licence if they are able to do so. I want to stress again that the bottom line here is that this Government does not believe it is acceptable for anyone to be drinking and driving or, in this case, drinking and operating heavy equipment on our highway system. That will be part of it, as well.

It also ensures the same kind of standards, whether it be medical standards and proficiency standards, be applied. I think it is only logical, if you are required to have a licence to operate a car, you should have the same kind of requirement to operate any kind of heavy equipment on our highways.

As a bottom line, I think, in addition to making sure that many of our existing legislation applies, it will ensure that Manitobans have greater comfort, when they are driving on the highway system, that they know that every other person on that highway system, no matter what kind of equipment they are operating, no matter what kind of vehicle, that they are required to have a licence. We believe this is the bottom line. I want to stress again that the licensing system is the backbone of our system in terms of driving in this province.

In fact, it is pretty much a system that is based on the very important principle that driving is not a right, it is a privilege. We are bringing it in, in advance of graduated drivers' licensing to give people plenty of time to adjust. I do not think it is an unreasonable requirement in this province that

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 235 1 someone operating heavy equipment on our highways have a licence, and that is why I am very pleased to recommend this bill to the House and would strongly urge members, not only on the Government side but the Opposition side, to support this bill. Bottom line, it just makes sense, common sense, and I look forward to the members' comments. Thank you. Mr. Har old Gilles hammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton), that the House resolve into a Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. (15: 20) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. There is a previous agree ment of this committee to have a global discussion of the entire department, and, after completion of all questioning, pass all reso lutions. We will continue with the global discussion. We are open for questions. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairperson, I will just read into the record some of the replies to previous questions that have been asked by some of the members during the course of the Estimates debate. First, on May 16 , 2001, the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) requested information respecting IMG, speci fically (

a) a list or the number of IMGs currently seeking accreditation, (

b) a list of world health organizations, except countries from which IMGs come from, (

c) what training and assess ment will be available to IMGs, and (

d) what percentage of the Budget and subappropriation 21 .4.(

c) relates to IMGs. I would like to provide the following information: To date, five IMGs have submitted application to the Faculty of Medicine to be assessed through the medical licensure program for international medical graduates. There are 1642 approved institutions of basic medical education in 15 7 countries or areas, and I will table a list of the approved countries or areas. We announced on April 25, 200 1, the first permanent program in Canada to assist inter national medical graduates to obtain medical licences.

Finally, the total amount of funding for IMGs is $269,000, of which 0.06 percent of the total medical program of $484, 16 0,800. I am tabling copies of the World Health Organi zation's World Directory of Medical Schools by country. On May 16 , the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain requested information with respect to how much the medical program budget was for the operation set up of the Rural and Northern Health office. We requested a copy of the RFP that was being sent to all RHAs regarding the Office of Rural and Northern Health.

I would like to advise that the Office of Rural and Northern Health, included in sub appropriation 21 .4.(

c) medical programming, is $50 1, 700,000. I am also tabling a copy of the RFP that was provided across Manitoba with respect to the Office of Rural and Northern Health, dated February 12 , 2001. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Char leswood): A few brief questions, as we indicated last time, before we adjourned, that I would come back with a few more questions on capital projects, capital programs, and I would ask just a few more on those. understand the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) had been asking questions, Mr. Chairperson, about projects that were deferred last year and the minister had indicated to him that he thought we had been

2352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 supplied with that list at some point. In looking through all of my documents, I do not happen to have a list of all projects that might have been deferred by the NDP when they came into power. I wonder if it would be possible to have either that tabled or a list provided today. Mr. Chomiak: We can provide a list of those projects that were deferred by the Government of Manitoba when we did our reassessment-a complete reassessment of the capital plan that was announced in the '99-2000 period just before the last provincial election. We will provide a list now.

Because projects were in various stages of approval and various stages of status, the question as to what is deferred and what has not been deferred is not necessarily as concrete a there may not necessarily be as explicit a black and-white answer for each individual project, depending upon the state of their capital approval. But we will endeavour to provide a listing of those projects that were deferred with respect to the capital plan. From memory, the course projects that we discussed last year in Estimates extensively that dealt with deferral were, of course, the personal care home in Morden, Mr.

Chairperson, as well as the Emerson hospital. They were two of the projects that were deferred and that we discussed extensively, both last year and during the course of Estimates and, to a certain extent, during the Estimate process this year. * (15 :30) Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate the willingness of the minister to provide that list. Would he also be able to either now verbally or be willing to table a list of all of the capital building projects that took place in the year 2000, or in that budget year, that fiscal budget year? Mr. Chomiak: I am not clear, specifically, what year the member is referencing. Mrs.

Driedger: How about let us do the last budget year, 2000-200 I? Mr. Chomiak: Is the member looking for projects that have been improved in principle, or projects that we have begun construction, or projects for making payment because the construction is not completed? Mrs. Driedger: Is it possible to get all of that? Mr. Chomiak: To the extent, yes, we will try to provide the inf ormation for all, basically, three of those categories. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister give any indication, and I know he has not announced his capital projects for this fiscal year, are there any particular projects that he is able to indicate to us that might be in the works for this year? Mr. Chomiak: I cannot give any specifics. Some information has already leaked out that is common knowledge, but I cannot give anything specific, lest I open floodgates. If I indicate some projects, then the question will be why do I not indicate other projects. So, just for the purposes of consistency, Mr. Chair, I think I will just announce the projects at the time of announcement.

Mrs. Driedger: I do not mind if the minister wanted to share any of that with me. I think I must have missed the leaks. Can the minister give any indication whether or not there are any super, major, big projects happening that require a five-year plan? Is there anything in the works that requires that kind of a looking-forward commitment? Mr. Chomiak: Clearly, there is a whole series of projects that are on a multiyear plan. Two of the most notable ones that have already been announced, the two critical services projects in Winnipeg and in Brandon that are on a multiyear plan.

There are a variety of projects with respect to multiyear plans that are part of the overall capital development process. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether he is going to be looking at making a commitment to five-year projects or five-year capital announcements? I know, in opposition, he had had an interest in looking at the value or been somewhat committed to the value of more longer-term announcements.

I believe that there was a five-year figure attached to that and wondered if that was where the minister might be moving in any of his projects, or does he go on a year-to-year or a two-year or a multiyear planning horizon? Mr. Chomiak: The capital plan cannot be produced on a year-by-year basis. I mean, it

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2353 would not be an effective capital plan if it was not rolled out over a multiyear strategic basis over a number of years. With respect to announcements, what we have tried to do is change the process with respect to approval process, to break down the approval process into three separate stages. That was the decision we made last year when we reviewed the capital plan, and we determined that we would break down the approval process into a three-stage approval process that would try to accurately reflect at what stage a particular capital project is at.

Quite clearly, the capital plan cannot be done on a single-year basis with respect to planning, or with respect to strategic direction of both the department and health in general, so it is rolled out a multiyear plan, but in terms of public announcements, we are trying to make public announcements with respect to the three-stage approval process that we put in place last year. Mrs. Driedger: I know last week we had discussed a little bit without any real answers in terms of long-term care beds. I wonder if the minister could tell me how many long-term care beds were added to the system in 2000-2001. Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I guess we could provide the member with that information. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister wish to provide that now or table it at a later date? Mr. Chomiak: Probably we will table it at a later date, as soon as possible. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many long-term care beds he is planning on opening for 200 1 -2002? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there are some projects that are in the works. They are part of the capital planning process. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what criteria he bases the number of new long-term care beds on?

Would there be certain things that are looked at and addressed to determine the need for more long-term care beds or whether the numbers we have out there are stable now? Is there a process he follows in determining what that is and how that is prioritized? Mr. Cbomiak: There has always been a planning process that has been put in place with respect to long-term beds at the Department of Health. They worked on certain thresholds of establishing long-term beds and the need for long-term beds.

That was challenged in the last few years of the previous government with respect to planning parameters and with respect to planning structures. In the latter part of the lastgovernm ent there was a move to put in place a greater number of long-term care beds than had been put in place previously. There are certain ratios that have been adopted by the Department of Health with respect to the number of long-term beds that are being constructed or are being approved for construction. Upon coming to office we did do a review of the number of beds in the system and long-term beds.

We are still looking at the result of that particular review with respect to the number and the needs for long-term beds. I alluded to the fact in the last occasion when we discussed this particular issue I indicated to the member that we were ques tioning some of the basics in the system with respect to the need for chronic, for psycho geriatric, for what I term special needs beds, and taking a look at those kinds of requirements and mix in the system.

There have been several studies, most notably by the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, that have assessed the bed ratios in the province and made suggestions with respect to needs for beds and the requirements of beds. There are varying optmons across the system with respect to beds and the type of beds that are required. Clearly there have been suggestions-there were suggestions throughout the '90s and suggestions right up to the present that in terms of personal care homes per thousand, Manitoba has more than most juris dictions in the country, certainly more than western Canada.

That has been general, and in fact if one looks at comparisons across the country, certainly across western Canada, that in fact is the case. The question then becomes, if Manitoba has more beds per thousand in long term care beds, what are Manitoba's needs in the future and how can those needs be met? So that has been some of the conventional wisdom. However, I have always been of the

2354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 view that we have to challenge the conventional wisdom and challenge some of the numbers and to continue to challenge them. If you look at the recent studies, it is very clear that in some of those special needs categories there is a need for beds, and it appears that the system is evolving towards a system where the more intensive. What used to be long-term care beds have become more intensive in acuity requiring more services, which then translate into a different type of bed than may be required in the future because of (

a) the age of individuals that are placed in those beds and (

b) the level of acuity of those particular patients in the beds. * (15: 40) So we have basically asked and I have asked for an assessment of needs and requirements and basically challenged some of the conventional thinking in this regard to try to figure out what is in fact a better bed mix, and what is the best bed mix that will meet our needs in the next I 0 or 20 years. Demographically there are changes. Demographically there seems to be some kind of a movement and need towards more supportive kind of assistance rather than institutionalization.

We know intuitively that there is a move away from institutionalization in general. Whether or not that will be reflected in long-term care beds or not is still open to question. However, we have asked for an assessment and a continuing assessment, and that is in progress with respect to beti-needs in order to make determinations. I have alluded, however, to the fact both publicly and otherwise that we are certainly looking at in particular the special needs bed component of our system as something that probably has to be addressed sooner rather than later. Mrs.

Driedger: I certainly appreciate the need to address some of these special needs beds. I believe my colleague from Portage Ia Prairie has spoken to the minister either through Estimates or separately about some of these issues and looking at some of the need for either Alzheimer's beds or brain injury beds for people injured through brain injury. Certainly one would assume that by paying special attention to these specific areas we could eventually end up providing patients in need of these beds with a much better-quality program and be able to better meet their needs.

Knowing that the baby boomers are on the horizon for reaching the age where a number of medical services are going to be needed and knowing some of the long-term planning that will be a part of this picture in order to properly provide the health care needs of baby boomers, is that part of what the minister is looking at in terms of some long-term plans and looking at numbers of beds in the system or other programs in the system to properly determine what we need? Has that kind of planning already started? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. Mrs.

Driedger: I believe that there was supposed to be a bed map produced in the fall of 2000. Could the minister tell me whether or not that bed map has been finalized and whether he would be prepared to table a copy? Mr. Chomiak: I do not believe it is finalized. It is still in progress. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate if there is a time frame on when that might be completed? Mr. Chomiak: We are using some of the data acquired from that process in some of our planning around some of the projects that we are undertaking.

We are also looking at the application of the bed map across the province, if memory serves me correctly, in terms of a larger general planning and long-term planning. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister have an expected date in mind at which time he would like to see that done and completed in order to be able to make sure that the planning is happening in an organized way? Mr. Chomiak: I can indicate the planning is happening in an organized way. Obviously, the results of the particular bed map exercise has been and will continue to be utilized in the planning process.

So it is continuing, it is being utilized in the planning process as we look towards the requirements for the needs in the short term, the medium term and the long term. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate if he is moving towards buying out the proprietary personal care homes?

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2355 Mr. Chomiak: There is a unique relationship that has been established in Manitoba with respect to proprietary care homes, insofar as they report directly to the Department of Health outside of the window of the regional health authorities. It is kind of an interesting anomaly, and there are a variety of reasons that have been given to me as to why that particular anomaly takes place in the health care system.

As the member probably is aware, most of the capital construction that took place in the long-term care or personal care home sector over the past few years has been largely in that particular sector of the health care system for a variety of reasons. It certainly is not my intention or I believe the intention of the Department of Health to buy out the for-profit, private personal care homes. Mrs. Driedger: So the rumour that might be out there that the minister has a distaste for them and is planning on taking them over, does that have no validity to it? Mr.

Chomiak: I noticed the member used the words "rumour that might be out there ." I am not privy to rumours that might be out there with respect to the acquisition of the for-profit, private personal care homes. Having said that, Mr. Chairperson, it has never been a secret that it has been generally our wish that activity in the personal care home sector is preferable in the public sector for a variety of reasons. I made no secret of that, both in opposition and as a minister.

That is not to say that our Government, both in the past, when we have been government from the period of 19 69 through '77, and '81 through '88, and now from '99 and continuing, that there are existing and pre-existing for-profit personal care homes in the system. Just as members opposite made no secret of the fact that they pref erred for-profit private personal care homes for a variety of reasons, our preference is towards the non-profit personal care homes for a whole variety of reasons, which I am pleased to get into if the member wants to question me on that.

With respect to the acquisition or the purchase or rumours that the member might have heard in this regard, I am not aware of any intention to purchase a for-profit personal care home in Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister then confirm that there are no discussions going on formally or informally in the department that would lend itself to that rum our? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I do not want to speculate. If the member has a specific issue that she wants to question me on, I will answer definitively.

But, with respect to possible rumours, the member might have heard about and my speculating on those possible rumours, I will not do that. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister then confirm that there are no discussions going on in the Department of Health informally or formally to purchase proprietary personal care homes? Mr. Chomiak: I have not given any direction whatsoever with respect to the department for them to look at the purchase of for-profit private nursing homes in the province of Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate what is happening with the proposal a few years back to build a tower at the Misericordia Health Centre? Mr. Chomiak: There were a variety of options that were proposed with respect to the tower at the Misericordia hospital. The one that I am most familiar with in that regard was, I believe, an announcement in the 19 99-2000 capital plan to build a tower at Misericordia, Mr. Chairperson, to expand the capacity of Misericordia to of fer personal care home services at that site.

That has been a proposal that was brought forward, and that is a proposal that, like all proposals, the 16 0 or 17 0, if memory serves me correctly, that were reviewed last year, that like all proposals was reviewed and was placed within our planning process. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate where it might be in terms of a priority, or has there been some determination that this number of personal care home beds are no longer needed in the system?

2356 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 Mr. Chomiak: There are a number of personal care home beds that are needed in the system. There are a variety of other kinds of beds that are needed in the system and, I think, to a certain extent, that will be fairly clear in our capital announcements. Mrs. Driedger: Can the mm1ster indicate whether or not-and I do not know if this might have been brought up earlier, and I apologize if it has-there has been any commitment to build ing a new hospital in Portage la Prairie? Mr. Chomiak: I think that it was brought up by the member's colleague.

It was a proposal that was brought forward with respect to a hospital that was built in the 1950s, and there was a fair amount of support in the community for municipalities with respect to the establishment of a new facility. That is part of the many capital proposals that have come before the Department of Health. Mrs.

Driedger: I guess, just to probably provide support to what my colleague from Portage Ia Prairie has likely said, having toured that hospital recently as well as the Emerson Hospi tal, certainly one can see the fairly dramatic needs in both of those places for a lot of reasons, whether it is for patients themselves or for the staff that have to work in either of those facilities, to have more modem functioning facilities would certainly enhance the quality of patient care, I would think, as well as the environment for his staff to work in.

So certainly I would encourage a real good look at both of those particular facilities. In Emerson I was particularly touched by the fact that the personal care home side of that is really almost, I have to say, depressing after being in a number of personal care homes in the province. I have to say there are some wonderful personal care homes for our seniors in this province. To have to walk through the one at Emerson was depressing.

I cannot imagine what it is like for those seniors that have to live there day in and day out and would certainly encourage I guess that they be given a good look when priorities are being set. I wonder if the minister could tell me where the situation is with the Swan River hospital. * (1 5:50) Mr. Chomiak: I can assure the member that we have given the situation with respect to Emerson and Portage a good look with respect to all of the priorities. Of course, I have also had occasion to tour both of those facilities.

I also had occasion recently to tour the temporary hospital in Swan River, and I will just provide the member with some information with respect to Swan River momentarily. I am advised that there is good progress being made between the Capital Planning Branch, the regional health authority and the Swan River board, which of course is a non devolved board in that particular region, and plans are going per the norm with respect to the construction of the new facility.

As I indicated pre viously, I had occasion recently to tour the temporary facility and to view some of the situation up there, as well as to have an opportunity discussing with some of the board members and others some of the issues concerning that particular facility. I can assure the member that plans are moving very well from a planning viewpoint with respect to that facility. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister tell me whether construction has started on that or if it is still in just another stage? Mr. Chomiak: The actual construction has not commenced. Mrs.

Driedger: Could the minister tell me what the start date on that would be? Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated, there is a three pronged planning approval process that has been put in place with respect to capital projects, and it is moving along that process. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate where along that process it is? It seems to me that this issue was brought up for the last several years, and I am just curious at what stage it is. I would have thought that it might have been a little bit further along.

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2357 Mr. Chomiak: Yes, it is moving quite expeditiously. I think that all the parties to this particular process, that is the department, the regional health authority and the Swan River Hospital Board, are pleased with the progress. Mrs. Driedger: I guess I have not really heard an answer in all of that in terms of the specific point along the process where it would be. Certainly there had been some indication, I can recall, when mould was discovered in the hospital, and there was some real concern by the NDP in opposition and by the community.

I understand that they are in a temporary facility now. am wondering where along I guess the planning process this would be. I mean, have tenders been sought? Has the sod been turned? Certainly there must be some specific answer that can be given as to where this is along that process. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that the process is proceeding along the normal time lines for a project of this type. Mrs. Driedger: I guess it could certainly be moving along as it is expected or as quickly as the minister would hope, or it is following along in one of the three phases of his planning process.

I do not understand why it is difficult for him to indicate where in that process this is. I mean, it is probably a fairly significant hospital. I would wonder where in the process it is in terms of the approval processes, in terms of the sod-turning, in terms of the tendering. When can the community expect, I guess, some definitive action on this, or when will it be finished? I do not understand why the minister cannot tell me specifically where it is at. Mr. Chomiak: Of course, the member knows that the previous facility was found to be contaminated, and a new temporary structure was put in place.

Quite evidently, a community cannot function for long periods of time in a temporary facility. We have committed and I think the previous government committed although I am not sure; I do not think there was money in the capital budget-to reconstruct and build a new facility there. We have moved quite expeditiously with the community into the design stages. We are on target and we will proceed. Announcements will be duly made. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether there has been any funding allocated for the Swan River hospital? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. Mrs.

Driedger: I have a particular interest, I guess, in the Swan River hospital because, like the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), I am from around that neck of the woods as well, Benito, Manitoba, that is right, about 22 miles from Swan River. I certainly have a partiality to that particular part of the province. Knowing I have lots of relatives who probably need to access the area, I certainly have a really keen interest and want to see good health care avail able to the people in the Swan River Valley, a place, by the way, that I am very proud to have come from.

I am a little bit surprised that the minister cannot be more definitive in his answer. It makes me wonder why he is hesitant to provide any concrete information about this. With his last answer, he certainly did indicate that funding has been allocated, but I guess I am wondering if the funding is allocated just for the plan, or is there funding allocated for the actual construction? Certainly I would think that for the hospital that will be fairly significant to the Swan River Valley and that will be, I am assuming, a regional centre, that there could be some more concrete time frames attached to this.

I do not understand why the minister is a bit reluctant. He seems reluctant to give me the information about exactly where in the planning process this particular facility is at. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as I have indicated, we have made an allocation for Swan River hospital to be built, and Swan River hospital will be built. We are in a planning process and planning stage of staged approvals that we are working through. We have discussed it with the community; we have discussed it with the board, and we are proceeding as appropriate.

2358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 I have tried to be pretty consistent with respect to our capital announcements and how we announce our capital and what we announce with respect to our capital. I am trying to preserve that particular aspect of it, so that we do not get into situati ons of a myriad of announce ments at one point that cannot be lived up to, as it had happened in '99-2000, so that we can have announcements that are announced along the appropriate approval process. Let me outline for the member why I think this is appropriate.

When we looked at the assessment of capital and we looked at the various stages of approval that had taken place, in many cases the amount of capital, for example, that was appropriate or that was allocated for a particular capital process had increased by I 0, 20 and 30 percent from the time of the original announcement until the time of the actual capital. That then locked in the government or the agencies to particular cost that we did not think was effective.

We wanted to manage the capital dollars better and we wanted to manage the capital dollars more appropriately, so we put in place an approval process that had various stages of approval where the items would come back and would be reviewed with all of the parties in question. * (1 6:00) In this particular instance there is no doubt there will be and there must be a new hospital built in Swan River. We are proceeding to do that. We are following normal patterns, and in fact are going as fast as is permissible under the circumstances, as fast as could be permitted under the circumstances. We are doing that.

We are proceeding and announcements will be duly made as we proceed through this particular process. Mrs. Driedger: The other day in the House, one of the minister's colleagues yelled across-and this is a little bit surprising to me, because I do not think they have that many beds-and indicated that there were, and this is where the number is probably wrong, I am not sure, 400 underutilized beds at Concordia Hospital. Could the minister indicate whether that is something that would be an accurate statement? I did not hear the other minister say that in the House.

Other colleagues of mine had heard those words being said, that there were 400 underutilized beds at Concordia Hospital. Can the minister indicate if that is anywhere near an accurate statement? I do not even know if they have 400 beds. Mr. Chomiak: No, they do not have 400 beds. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what might have been meant by that particular statement then? Is there a lesser number? Is there some discussion going on in his Government about beds at Concordia Hospital, other than the ones of course we have heard about recently when Dr.

Pat Harris had come forward with concerns about the takeover of community hospital beds at the Grace and at Concordia? Would that have been part of what this other minister was meaning when he was indicating there were underutilized beds at Concordia? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I do not like to speculate based on rumours. Earlier on I indicated to the member her suggestion that there was maybe a rumour on something was something I did not want to comment on.

Now the member is asking me to comment about a statement that she purports to have heard from a second party that was purportedly made by someone on our side of the House that I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on. If I were to comment on all of the comments I heard in the House, I could be here for several hours on recent comments that have been heard from members opposite, but I know that during the course of debate in the House many things are said, many things are said inaccurately or accurately, or in the heat of debate.

So I am not going to speculate on a comment the member heard second-hand which was hearsay from an individual on her side of the House. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister then indicate in his mind whether or not there are under utilized beds at Concordia Hospital? Is that his view? Mr. Chomiak: I do not know what the member is referring to by underutilized. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister tell me whether there are a number of empty beds, vacant beds at Concordia Hospital?

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2359 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we are utilizing as many beds at Concordia Hospital as staff permit us to utilize. Mrs. Driedger: One would assume, I would think, with the shortages in human resources that we see out there, that there might be a number of vacant beds, perhaps even closed wards in some of the hospitals. One of the community hospitals indicated the only way they were able to come in under budget this year was because they had a closed ward because they were not able to staff it. So they actually had closed a whole ward.

Can the minister tell me how many closed beds there are in Winnipeg hospitals right now? Mr. Chomiak: What I can tell the member is there were a lot of beds closed over the past decade, permanent acute care beds that were closed in the health care system. There were also a lot of staff that were laid off in the health care system. It would certainly be helpful, and I can assure the member that there would be a lot more beds that we would be in a position to be staffing if we had the human resources to do that. That is known by everyone across the system.

That is the fact that because of the acute human resource shortages it is very difficult to manage the entire system. That is one of the reasons why we have launched a significant initiative to train and educate nurses, doctors and other health care professionals that we are moving on to try to staff up and try to deal with what we recognized when we came into office was the most significant issue facing us: that is a lack of human resources to deal with the various issues that have to be dealt with.

We also know that there are situations where, from time to time, there are staffing difficulties, and we acknowledge that publicly. Mr. Chair, we have also acknowledged publicly that, over the course of summer, every year there are shutdowns with respect to beds that have been a tradition in the history in this province for decades, and that continues to happen. There is also no doubt, Mr. Chairperson, and I have said publicly, if we had more nurses, for example, and some of the other health care personnel, that we would be operating more beds in the system.

There is no question in my mind that that is in fact the case. I had a fairly lengthy discussion with one of the member's colleagues the other day with respect to the staffing of beds and the relationship between the lack of personnel and the staffing of beds and some of the difficulties that we are experiencing in the system as a result of the cutbacks that occurred in the '90s and the inability to tum around on a dime, that is, to staff and to provide human resources to those beds and those locations in the short term.

Fortunately, we have planned for the long term, our nurses' plan that we put in place in March of 2000 that outlines significant issues with respect to nurses, our doctors' plan, the most significant expansion of doctor resources that I can recall perhaps in 20 years in this province, which is very significant to deal with doctors, and some of the other human resource measures that we have undertaken and will be undertaking with respect to human resources are going to have a significant impact across the system.

I have said publicly on many occasions that we are in for some dif ficult times in the next little while because of the serious cutbacks that occurred in the '90s and the inability to tum around on a dime with respect to staffing and dealing with those issues. The effect of those cutbacks are not felt and were not felt as much immediately as are continuing to be felt throughout the system as we move forward.

Hopefully, with some of the measures we put in place several years down the road, as we see new graduates and new people filling the ranks of those that were not there in the past, we ought to be able to make progress with respect to the staffing of facilities across the system. Mrs.

Driedger: I know the minister certainly does get a little bit defensive when the question is asked about the number of closed beds in Winnipeg hospitals, but, when we do look at having probably one of the best percentages in terms of the numbers of acute care beds in the country on per capita basis and probably, as he just indicated a little bit earlier, on a per capita basis, some of the best percentages for long-term care beds in Canada, maybe part of what needs to be looked at in the big picture is maybe there are enough beds in the system.

2360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 200 1 I know he might lose some of the political opportunity to take shots at us for closing beds, but maybe there are enough beds in the system. Maybe there is, as he even indicated earlier, a better way or different ways, innovative ways, in order to look after patients which could be in the community or in other facilities like day hospitals, supportive living, a number of other opportunities. I do not know, without having all of the information at hand. Maybe having a number of closed beds in the system is maybe not that detrimental.

On the other hand, maybe it is, depending on how everything else stacks up. Certainly last week I had indicated to the minister, and it was an

article that had been in the Canadian Operating Room Nursing Journal from October of 19 99, written by a Dr. Tim Porter O'Gr ady, who talked about debedding health care and talked about the fact that in North America, by the year 20 10 , we will have reduced bed-based health care by 637 000 beds. He went on to say in the

article that that does not mean people will not get sick. It just means that we are going to be caring for them differently. It does not mean that people do not need us in health care. It just means that they will need us in different things. It appears to be a trend that is certainly happening throughout North America in terms of reducing the number of acute care beds.

Probably having an adequate number of long term care beds in the community is certainly something, though, that has to be watched very carefully with the baby boomers hitting the system, because that is maybe where we do need to be very in tune with what the future demands on the system are going to be and where we may need, in fact, more beds rather than less.

Certainly, in acute care, with the day surgery percentage that has gone up dramatically over time, one has to continue to always evaluate how needed acute care beds are and what is the best percentage in our population for acute care beds in the system. * (16: 10 ) I certainly would be interested in knowing how many beds are closed right now in Winnipeg hospitals, but certainly if the minister does not want to provide that information at this point in time, that is fine. I can go on to a different line of questioning.

Certainly, I think it is important that when we are looking at beds and we are looking at what the trends are and we are looking at probably what the future holds, the fact that almost three quarters of a million hospital beds will close in North America by the year 20 10 is pretty significant.

I think that speaks a lot to the research and technology that has been introduced in the number of years that could actually create the situation where we do not have to look after people in very expensive hospital beds when there are other ways, in many cases, of looking after them in a much better way and in a much more cost-effective way while they still get really good care.

So I would certainly hope that when we look at the discussion and have the discussion about numbers of beds in the system and whether or not the former government closed beds, the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evalu ation, a group that I know the minister likes to quote their research, indicated that there was no negative effect on Manitoba patients by the closure of beds in the '90s, and they have reiterated that statement in some of their most recent research articles that they have produced.

They have indicated that actually a number of times, and even in their last three research studies that they have put forward indicated that the closure of beds in the '90s did not have a negative ef f ect upon patient care in the province. So it does make for some interesting conversation. I know the minister likes to always say that the Tories closed all these beds, but in fact, according to the research group, they indicate that that was not a detrimental thing.

It is not that people were just left out there with no means of getting care, because there are certainly alterna tives that have been introduced and innovations that have been introduced. It appears to be a North American trend, and it is not just something that is happening in Manitoba. In fact, probably we are sitting with some of the largest percentages of acute care and long-term care beds in Canada. I know there have even been questions by other researchers as to whether or not the numbers we have in the system are the right numbers, so it is going to be interesting to watch how this evolves over time.

May 28, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 236 1 I do not know if the minister wants to comment on that. I mean, I am not going to stay on the issue of how many beds are closed in Winnipeg hospitals right now if he would prefer to go on. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chair, before I respond, I wonder if the member can advise me if we are finished the capital p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-36
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 36.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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