LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, March 8, 1972 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 pm.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair.] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and through you to the members of the House, Mr. Steg Seidemark from Stockholm, Sweden. He is in the Speaker's gallery with Count Otto Von Rosen. Mr. Seidemark is head of the Projects Division of the General Export Association of Sweden and is here in our province to arrange the forthcoming visit of a mining mission on April 26th to Edmonton.

This mission will visit us to give a lecture on that date and to exchange know-how between our countries. I am sure that all hon. members will join me to welcome our distinguished guests. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce through you, to the House, the Grade VI class of Lendrum School in my constituency. They are 32 in number here today and are accompanied by their teacher, Mrs. Lefever.

I would like very much to congratulate the teacher and the students on taking such an interest in the procedure of this Assembly to visit the building today and in doing so to spend some time in the gallery watching the House in session. I would ask that they now stand to be recognized. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and through you, to the members of the House, the teacher, Mr. Hugh Ross, and his students from Grades VIII and IX of the Ritchie School. They are seated in both galleries and it is a pleasure indeed to welcome so many constituents of mine.

I do hope that they will continue to take active interest in the democratic process of our province. I would like them to stand now and be recognized. Mr. Speaker, I further would like to introduce to you and through you, to the members of the House the St. James Grave VIII students and their teacher, Mr. Soucy, who are observing today the procedings of this Assembly. Would you welcome them and may I add that, hopefully, it will plant the seed of desire in many of them to actively participate in municipal, provincial, or federal politics to the future. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to introduce to you and through you, to the members of the House students from the Archbishop MacDonald High School and their teacher, Mrs. Simonetti, who are in the public gallery. Mr. Speaker, I commend the students for their interest in the policies and the Legislature of this province. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 159

5-2 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 head: FILING RETURNS AND TABLING REPORTS DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the annual report of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation for the fiscal year 1970-1971. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Calgary Court HouseMR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I would like to add to the answers I gave to the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View a day or so ago, when he asked about communications we had had with respect to the Court House in Calgary, and he also asked about plans that we may have under way to add to that building.

I have now found, in searching the files, that I did receive a letter from the Calgary Bar Association some time ago, expressing a concern over the shortage of courtrooms, and I passed that letter to the members in my department who are concerned with that, type of thing, and asked for their assessment of that concern. Game Preservation MR. DRAIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg your indulgence and the indulgence of the Legislature in that I have to make a short statement to ask a question. Briefly, Mr.

Speaker, the background is that due to the very severe snow conditions that we now have in the Crowsnest Forest area, the game is being driven to a greater and greater degree out into the farmlands. I have today received representations from my constituency, Mr. Speaker, and have been advised as a result of this situation that a considerable amount of hay damage is occurring. This matter has been taken up with the members of the Game Branch in their office at Pincher Creek. They have been unable to deal with this situation. The matter of the amount of hay that is eaten by the animals is not the important thing.

The important thing is that the hay is polluted. I ask, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests if his department will give consideration to taking extraordinary steps to deal with this unfortunate situation that is so costly and threatens the livelihood of some of my people. DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I will give that matter my immediate attention. Passenger Train Service MR. HANSEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the hon. Minister of Industry.

I am very concerned about the discontinuing of the dayliner to Grand Centre from Cold Lake, and I would like to know what position his department stands on. MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member for Bonnyville. Our department intends to make a submission to the public hearing on March 23rd, in support of the continuation of this service. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 160

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-3 MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the government intend to make the submission with respect to the application of the NAR to discontinue service from Dawson Creek, Alberta, to Edmonton, as well? MR. PEACOCK: In answer to the hon. member for Spirit River-Fairview. We are considering this one, and are not prepared to make a decision at this time. MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Premier.

Having regard to the press reports that have been coming from the House of Commons, that the Queen may visit Prince Edward Island next year, will consideration be given by our government to extend an invitation for the Queen to visit Alberta and participate in the centennial celebration of the RCMP? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, with regard to that matter, I have not, obviously, had an opportunity to discuss it with my hon. colleagues as yet, but I have been considering the same reports that the hon. member has been reading. I have been considering, too, the observations made by the hon.

Attorney General with regard to the RCMP, and also the plans that are involved in 1973 and 1974 with respect to the RCMP, and I think there may be some considerable merit.

If the hon. member might join with me -- rather than on a government basis perhaps on a legislative basis -- in preparing a motion, provided we've had an opportunity to consider the proper protocol, to extend an invitation to Her Majesty to come to this province in 1974, also provided those involved with the organization concur regarding the celebration of the RCMP in Fort Macleod and in Alberta -- or alternatively during 1973, which is, of course, the anniversary celebration of the founding of the RCMP in this province. MR. STROM: Mr.

Speaker, I realize it is not my privilege to reply to questions, but I would like to confirm that our side of the House would be very happy to concur with the government in such a motion, and would look forward with a great deal of pleasure to being able to support it. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the hon. the Premier, would the hon. Premier also consider inviting Princess Anne? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, having regard to the way in which that question was put, there's no way I could reply other than with an affirmative answer. Moir Report MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education. In the course of his comments yesterday regarding the Moir Report, he indicated that the report and the chairman committee had not been advised of action taken by my office. The minister has been kind enough to send a note across. I will ask Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 161

5-4 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 that he elaborate and perhaps adjust one or two things in the statement. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I was going to rise on a point of privilege and the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury is quite correct. You may recall, Mr. Speaker, that I was asked a question concerning the Moir Report on Monday, to which I responded I was meeting Mr. Moir on Monday evening, which I did, and my remarks in the House on Tuesday were based on statements made to me by Mr. Moir to the effect that he had not received notice of the fact that his premises were being terminated.

I checked the file this morning to discover that the hon. member, then Minister of Education, did, in fact, advise Mr. Moir that this was being done in August of 1971. A reply is also on the file, Mr. Speaker. Later in August of the same year the committee acknowledged that this was correct and in order, so I wish to correct the record of the House. Thank you. Payments for Construction Projects MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I’d like to direct a question to the hon. Provincial Treasurer.

Is there any intention of changing the method of payment for public works projects and capital works projects which were budgeted for in the 1971-72 budget from payment from general revenue as budgeted to payment through financing or borrowing? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question from the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View, I think that you appreciate budget secrecy. Shortly I will be introducing the budget and that matter will be clarified. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary, I did not wish to get into next year’s budget.

I am just requesting a reply as to whether any changes have been made with regard to last year’s budget, 1971-72; whether budget funds were provided for some of the capital works projects. Will there be a change made in last year’s budget to pay from borrowed or financed funds rather than through general revenue as provided? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I'm having some trouble understanding the hon. member's question. If he would put in in the form of a written question on the Order Paper I'd be happy to answer that. MR. FARRAN: To the hon.

Provincial Treasurer, is there any thought of paying for capital works in the future in the budget, instead of by special warrant at a later date so that the cities are not kept waiting for the money they are justly due to receive? MR. MINIELY: I'd answer that question by saying our intention is certainly to use the budget as a management tool more than has been the case in the past. That is correct. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 162

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-5 Eastern Rockies Conservation Board MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Sir, could you advise when you expect the land study in the Eastern Rockies forest conservation area to be completed? DR. WARRACK: There is a large volume of work that is undertaken on a continuing basis by the Eastern Rockies Forest Conservation Board; in fact this board has been in existence about two weeks short of 24 years.

There are some ongoing studies that are of a specific nature, and I'd be happy to report on them if you'd be kind enough to file a return. MR. WILSON: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Sir, could you advise me if your policy has changed regarding permanent leases for youth recreation camps? DR. WARRACK: I have really made no policy changes in that particular nature and that being the case I think the answer is clearly no.

However, I would like to point out that we have made some accommodations for youth camps particularly the Boys' Club in the Calgary area, and that we have been taking similar actions in that regard that I think will please you. MR. WILSON: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Sir, would you then say that you are now prepared to grant the City of Calgary Social Service Department Children's Service Centre a permanent lease on their presently occupied lands? Foothills Land Use Study DR. WARRACK: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member initially referred to the wrong study because the study that affects that particular matter is the Foothills Land Use Study, and my answer at this time -- since the study is not complete -- is still as it was in our initial correspondence, and the answer at this time then is no. MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry if I gave you the wrong study but I was quoting from a letter from your department, sir, and I would like to know when the City of Calgary might expect to get an answer as to whether or not they can have a long-term lease for that facility. DR.

WARRACK: The areas -- the two studies so the hon. member may very well be right, but the major point is that the study is primarily concerned with determining long-term land dispositions in that area -- the Foothills Land Use Study -- under the umbrella of the Eastern Rockies Conservation Board Study. Until that study is complete and the results are available for public policy, which we expect to be this summer, we cannot consider such a long-term disposition. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 163

5-6 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, you wrote, or your Department wrote me at one time, stating that they expected the study to be completed on April 1st. Has that date now changed? DR. WARRACK: No, this is the time we expect the study to be completed but it takes some time to translate this in terms of public policy. Natural Gas for Rural Areas MR. NOTLEY: I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister Without Portfolio in charge of Rural Development.

What steps are being considered to equalize fuel cost for those hamlets and villages presently beyond economic reach of natural gas fields or pipelines? MR. TOPOLNISKY: Mr. Speaker, would you have the hon. member put the question on the Order Paper. MR. NOTLEY: I would like to ask an additional supplementary question; perhaps this, too, could go on the Order Paper but it is also possible we might be able to get an answer, and that is what steps are being taken by the government to assist rural co-operatives interested in supplying farmers near pipelines or gas fields with natural gas? DR.

HORNER: I am replying for my colleague, the hon. Minister Without Portfolio in charge of Rural Development. Insofar as it applies to co-operatives we are initiating a study almost immediately in relation to the feasibility of whether or not all of rural Alberta cannot be covered by gas. This not only includes the people that the hon. member asks about in relation to villages and towns, but we would hope to be able to provide gas to all of the rural residents of Alberta. MR. NOTLEY: In view of the remarks made by the hon.

Minister of Agriculture, will the House be given a Position Paper on this question as soon as possible? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the hon. member that further information will be coming along just as soon as we have it available for us. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Wetaskiwin-Leduc. Water Supply for Rural Areas MR. HENDERSON: I'm not too certain who the question should go to, whether it's one of three or four ministers, but possibly the appropriate one could reply.

In the course of examining the question of natural gas distribution to the smaller communities, is it the government's intention also to examine the water supply problems that a number of Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 164

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-7 these small communities have throughout the province? Because in many areas this is even more critical than the gas situation. DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, that is another area that has long been overlooked in the Province of Alberta, and I am sure that the hon. member will be pleased with the amendments that we are bringing into the Legislature in regard to co-operatives which will cover the water situation as well. Highway 51 MR. COOKSON: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Highways a question with regard to Highway 51 which is a short stretch of highway west of Bentley.

Could the hon. member give me some indication as to any short or long-term plans for this highway? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, there are many highways in the province of Alberta that we are considering how to deal with. This particular one was designated as a highway. It is of a very low standard and I can assure the hon. member that some action will be taken within the next couple of years in this regard. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member if that means 1972? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is patient he will learn in due course. The Beverage Container Act MR.

WYSE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Did the hon. minister meet with a delegation from Medicine Hat-Redcliff sometime ago regarding The Beverage Container Act and 150 men laid off because of the implementation of this Act? DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, we met with all delegations that we can possibly meet with, and we certainly did meet with the delegation from Medicine Hat-Redcliff along with representation from the Department of the Environment who are responsible for administrating this act and I know that the representative there presented to his hon. minister a very full account of that meeting, and I'm sure that the hon. Minister of the Environment can reply. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, The Beverage Container Act was passed by the previous government and was brought into effect on January 1st of this year by the new government.

I have, in the course of drafting the regulations, received an untold number of submissions, as well as an untold number of delegations in connection with this act. I have corresponded with many people, presidents of glass corporations as well as the Soft Drink Association and their representatives. The 150 people, to my understanding, and this was presented to me in Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 165

5-8 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 terms of correspondence, were laid off as a result of many reasons and substantially before, in fact, this act became law in the Province of Alberta. Some of the reasons, Mr. Speaker, were that through the Department of Regional and Economical Expansion a new glass bottle factory was built in the Okanagan Valley in British Columbia, and this syphoned off a considerable amount of business from the glass works in Redcliff. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, there was a general concern in the earlier part of this year because of the legislation that was passed in British Columbia, which resulted in some adjustment in employment, and the fact that that legislation had been passed in Alberta last spring. Mr. Speaker, I want to suggest that to the best of my knowledge, and from the data that has been made available to me, there have been no lay-offs whatsoever in the Province of Alberta in the glass works at Redcliff since this act came into force. MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. member for Camrose has been waiting for the Floor. "Stolen" Desk MR.

STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the hon. Minister of Public Works. I would like to inform him that between the hours of adjournment of this Assembly last night at 10:30 and the commencement of this Assembly now at 2:00 or 2:30, that sometime during that period my desk has been stolen and also my mike, Mr. Speaker. On further checking I have found out that it is across the aisle and is now used by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I would like to ask the hon. minister if he would arrange for me to receive my loudspeaker back. MR. STROM: Mr.

Speaker, I have been sitting here patiently waiting for an opportunity to thank you for it, but if I have to thank someone else, or if I have to return it, I am prepared to do so. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member for Camrose would like to refrain from making a statement but put his problem in the form of a question, could he perhaps say, "Who stole my desk?" Liquor Advertising MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier seeing that we are on soft drinks, but I would like to get into the hard liquor. I was wondering if the hon.

Premier could indicate to the House -- I have had reports that he has more or less indicated to the electronic media, the TV and radio, that he is going to recommend allowance of the advertisment of liquor and beer advertising on the TV and radio. Is there anything he would like to report on that? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. member's question, that is not a matter that has been discussed or raised as yet with the Executive Council. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 166

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-9 MR. DIXON: I wasn't indicating whether it has been raised with the Executive Council. Speaker, my question was, has the hon. Premier given an indication to the media that he is going to go to the Executive Council with it? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, the position I have taken on that matter is, it will be something that the new administration will, in due course, consider. As yet it has not been considered and we felt we had other matters to deal with of a higher priority. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Drumheller. MR. DIXON: May I ask you, Mr.

Premier, the question about liquor advertising in the auditorium. Are you going to recommend that to the Executive Council? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. member asking about liquor utilization in the auditorium? I caught his question as liquor advertising. Perhaps he could clarify that for me. MR. DIXON: The utilization of liquor, Mr. Speaker. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I answered that the other day.

It was a question from another member as the record will show and that will be a matter that in due course will form the subject of a report by a committee headed up by the hon. member for Calgary Buffalo and will be reported through the hon. Attorney General. MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary? MR. DIXON: No. MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. member for Drumheller has precedence. MR. DIXON: I shall bow to the hon. member. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 167

5-10 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 Passenger Train Service (cont) MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Industry. Has the Department of Industry, on behalf of the government, made representation to the Canadian government for the reinstatement of CNR passenger service through the Three Hills area? MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. member for Drumheller's question, we have not. MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary question; is the department considering making such representation? MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, we are doing a total review of transportation needs for both people and freight in the Province of Alberta and at that time we will be glad to answer the hon. member's question. Lethbridge Grain Elevator MR. BUCKWELL: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Did the provincial government submit a bid for the Canadian government elevator in Lethbridge? DR. HORNER: No, Mr. Speaker. Boutonnieres MR. FARRAN I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Labour.

Can we be assured that the beautiful boutonnieres you wear each day are not picked from the fountain in the Legislative Building? DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member for Calgary North Hill and this Assembly; I am prepared to table a bill for $32.40 for my boutonnieres for the last 28 days. The Beverage Contain or Act (cont) MR. WYSE: A question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation. Certainly when the delegations met with both ministers they were under the impression the government was going to take some kind of action.

Is the government taking no responsibility whatsoever, regarding the 150 people laid off? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 168

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-11 MR. YURKO: I didn't have the opportunity to meet the with delegation that the hon. member is referring to. I was away, so just the hon. Minister of Agriculture met with the delegation at that time. MR. WYSE: A question, Mr. Speaker, did the delegation from Medicine Hat request a meeting with you? MR. YURKO: They did. MR. WYSE: Supplementary question to the hon. Minister of the Environment. Is any study under way then regarding environmental legislation that considers employment of people whose jobs are jeopardized because of legislation such as Bill 103? MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, all I can suggest is that the area of recycling of resources and the area of handling solid disposal by various means, is an area which commands some fairly extensive and high employment, particularly of the lesser-skilled people. MR. YOUNG: Supplementary question Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of the Environment. Was there a study undertaken prior to the introduction of that particular legislation last year? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that there was a comprehensive study made of the matter.

I recognize that certain memorandums were written and certain information was gathered, but I'm not aware that there was a comprehensive study done in Alberta. I would like to suggest for the hon. member's information, that, in fact, a comprehensive study was done in the Province of Ontario, by the establishment of a council in that province, and in connection with that study they virtually recommended the type of action taken by Alberta. St. Paul Cheese Factory DR. BUCK: I would like to ask a question of the hon. Minister of Industry.

Has there been any representation made to your department by the people in the St. Paul area, in relation to a feasibility study on establishing a cheese factory in that area? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I can answer that question because I've been in close contact with the Northern Alberta Dairy Pool, and with the hon. member for St. Paul, who has worked very closely with me in establishing a cheese factory in St. Paul. And along with the introduction of the new dairy policy by this government it assures the establishment of a cheese factory in the St. Paul area.

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5-12 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 Calgary Court House MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation. Is consideration being given in Calgary for the preservation of the Court House in which is housed a Museum at the present time, as an historical site? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, since the Court House belongs to the Department of Public Works, little discussion has been held with the hon. minister and I assure you that due consideration is being given to that study. Medicare MR. Notley: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon.

Minister of Health and Social Development. How many people have been prosecuted for non-payment of Medicare premiums? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I refer that question to the hon. Minister Without Portfolio in charge of the Health Care Insurance Commission. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the information at this moment, although we do have it on file, and I'll be prepared to provide the information if the hon. minister would care to put it on the Order Paper. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, I'd certainly be prepared to put that on the Order Paper, but could the hon. minister inform the House as to what criteria are used in this selective prosecution? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, this was handled by the Alberta Health Care Insurance Commission, as the hon. member is probably well aware, and so I shall question them carefully, and be prepared to file that information at the same time if you'd care to include that in your question. AGT Boundaries MR. BENOIT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the hon. Minister of Telephones and Communications.

Does the hon. minister intend to make provision to allow the AGT customers to determine the boundaries of the extended toll areas as was suggested in a bill tabled in this House last year? MR. WERRY: Mr. Speaker, when the whole question of extended area service is at the present time being reviewed, I'd like to provide some background. The previous administration, when they first went into their underground program, buried the cable on the basis of the existing boundaries and they would not consider extending toll-free service into areas that had a community of interest.

Their excuse at that time was that they would not review the boundaries until they Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 170

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-13 had completely buried all of the cable in Alberta, which meant that particular problem would not be reviewed until the end of 1974. We have moved up that assessment and study and it is in the process of being completed. A policy statement should be forthcoming, I would think possibly in the next two or three months. Homeowner's Tax Discount MR. HO LEM: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs.

In view of the inflationary trends and the cost of living, will there be an increase forthcoming in 1972 in the homeowner's tax discount to alleviate some of the burdens on our people in the fixed income bracket? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, this is a budget item which will be discussed at that time. Communal Properties Board MR. DIXON: Yesterday I directed -- I have not had the opportunity to be heard. I was wondering if they had this opportunity prior to being fired or after? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, there were only two members on the board and of those two, only one was active.

The other one merely received reports of the chairman. The non-active one was quite willing to relinquish his position because he had another full-time job within the Department of Municipal Affairs and I discussed the resignation of the chairman with him, both before and after having received it. MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Did the member who was left, other than the civil servant, take advantage of the fact that you said he could have had a hearing? Did he take advantage of the hearing that you claim you offered him? MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be some confusion about the offer of a hearing. I met with the Chairman of the Communal Properties Board in my office and later I went back to him with a very serious matter and asked him if he would resign and he agreed to. The County Act DR. BUCK: I would like to ask a question to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is he or his department, or anyone in his department, looking at changes in The County Act to permit Sherwood Park to have more representation on County Council? MR. RUSSELL: No, Mr. Speaker, not at this time.

The matter of representation within that county has been a matter of ongoing discussion between a number of interested groups, but at this time there is no question of changing the Act. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 171

5-14 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Camrose. Egg Quotas MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Is he giving consideration to the tightening up of eggs that are peddled outside of quota in Alberta? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, we're giving consideration to review of the present poultry situation in Alberta, after having had a year and a half of the chicken and egg war.

We feel very strongly that some measures should be taken in this area and I hope to be able to put before this House in the very near future a policy statement in regard to the Egg Marketing Board and the future in relation to the poultry industry in Alberta. Task Force On Urbanization MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask him what consultation there was between either him or other representatives of the government and the ten cities in the province before the initial phasing out, and then of the backing away from the phasing out of the Task Force on Urbanization? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that move was discussed with the Board of Directors of the Task Force on Urbanization. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Did the Board of Directors agree with the government's action? MR. RUSSELL: Yes. MR.

CLARK: Would the hon. minister be prepared, of course subject to the approval of the cities involved, to table with the Legislature the correspondence with regard to the phasing out and then the reorganization of the task force in the Assembly? MR. RUSSELL: Correspondence involved, Mr. Speaker; this was done at a director's meeting and by telephone. World Figure Skating Championship DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if the hon. Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation would be kind enough to inform us on the opening of the World Figure Skating Championship in Calgary yesterday.

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March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-15 MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, may I inform you, and through you the House, that it was a most enjoyable evening. The reception was given by the president of the World Figure Skating Association. The Lieutenant Governor of Alberta was there for the official opening. The president spoke a few words, and Mr. Pat Mahoney from Ottawa and I were privileged to open the World Figure Skating Championships on behalf of our Premier and the Province of Alberta. The show itself was fully attended. The hall was full and I understand that the rest of the week is sold out as well.

May I state that that this was one of the most succesful of any World Championships that have ever been held. This I was told by many members attending. It was, of course, most enjoyable for me to be down there, because one of the executives of the Association had been born in the same place as myself. We had a most delightful evening discussing the different events in our own dialect. Thank you very much for asking the question. Government Publications MR. SORENSON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Premier.

A number of people have inquired concerning the fact that there is in print no official government publication, and they listed "Within our Borders", and so on. What do you have in mind concerning this?. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter that has been of some concern because one of the very first actions the new administration took was to assure that there would not be a continuation of a magazine which we felt was extremely expensive and not at all effective, and that was "Land for Living".

This was a magazine which, as far as we were concerned, if I can be strong about it, was a clear waste of government money. There is a need however, as the hon. member, I gather is presenting, for us to consider some factual information that needs to be developed and distributed throughout Alberta. This is a matter that the Bureau of Public Affairs is considering, and we hope to have recommendations from the Bureau.

I think many citizens thought that the magazine "Within Our Borders" over a course of time provided a very useful degree of information to the people of the province, and we are looking at that but there may be an alternative way of doing it. Western Canada Transportation Council MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Industry. Who are the members of the Western Canada Transportation Council? MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, the members of the Western Canada Transportation Council are composed of the Minister of Transportation for B.C., the Minister of Transportation for Alberta, the Minister of Transportation for Saskatchewan, the two main carriers, CNR and CPR, the commodity people, mainly sulphur coal and grain, and the Harbours Commission respresentative. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is there any reason why the Truckers' Association is not represented on this council? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 173

5-16 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 MR. PEACOCK: No reason at all, Mr. Speaker, and they will be considered at a later date. You understand that this is just a preliminary and the beginning of, we hope, a broadening Council. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, what are the general objectives of the council? MR. PEACOCK: By the nature of the structure of the council, Mr. Speaker, you can appreciate, and this House can appreciate, that it has to be one of looking at the physical aspect of transportation rather than the economic.

For that reason, it was thought that a council of this nature would be most effective, superimposing all their research and their physical requirements, as we see it in the immediate future, into one consolidated program. Alberta Water Plan MR. HENDERSON: I'd like to address a question to the Minister of the Environment. Would the hon. minister inform the House as to whether the department intends to proceed with any water management projects on the Sturgeon River drainage basin and secondly, if they are going to undertake any such works, will there be public hearings held in advance? MR.

YURKO: This area is under consideration in connection with the Alberta Water Plan, and at this time I have nothing further to report. MR. HENDERSON: A supplementary question. Do I gather that all water management projects in the province are in abeyance while the government ponders this issue? MR. YURKO: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's not necessarily correct. We have a number of projects that are being implemented and I believe I referred to several last night, one being the Paddle River project. MR. HENDERSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the hon. minister be prepared to provide the information as to projects that the government will be undertaking in the year ahead; maybe we'll bring it up at budget time? MR. YURKO: That's a budgetary matter and this will all become quite clear when they discuss the budget. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 174

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-17 Game Officers MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. In view of the excellent address given by the hon. Member for Smoky River last night is it the intention of the hon. minister to consider doubling or tripling the number of game officers in the province? DR. WARRACK: Well, Mr. Speaker, the action in the coming fiscal year is a budgetary action but at the same time, the hon. Member for Smoky River delivered the needs in this area so eloquently last night.

I have discussed the matter in considerable detail, and it is rather clear there is a need for expansion of staff. MR. SPEAKER: There are about two minutes left until the end of the allotted time. Senior Citizens' Lodges MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take this opportunity to reply to a question asked two days ago by the hon. Member for Calgary North Hill. It was a very brief question and the answer is likewise brief.

The question related to how many senior citizens' lodges have been built in Calgary within the five-year period ending with the year-end of 1971, and the answer was that the only lodge that was built during that time in Calgary was Rundle Lodge. MR. FARRAN: When did Rundle Lodge actually come on stream so that senior citizens could use it? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this was a very late blooming project and it is in the final stages of completion at the present time. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: POINT OF PRIVILEGE MR.

DIXON: The problem was brought up yesterday when the policy statement was made by the government, and then there was an argument as to whether someone other than the hon. Leader of the Opposition could reply to it, and I just wondered if the House might entertain what they have done in the House of Commons? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Your Honour has already made a decision on this matter and, therefore, it is not debatable by the hon. gentleman opposite at this time. MR. DIXON: I'm not debating the issue, I'm just asking. I mentioned yesterday, if the hon.

Member would just hold his cool for a moment Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 175

5-18 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 or two, I'll tell him, I'm asking on a point of order as I said when the Speaker was stating his case yesterday. I mentioned the fact that there had been a change in the rules in the House of Commons, and if you read your own rule book you will see this. It will only take me a second to read this. And I ask the Speaker to take this into consideration. MR. SPEAKER: May I just say that as I understand it, any changes which have been made in the House of Commons Rules, subsequent to the 1958 edition of Beauchesne, are not of any relevance in this House.

The reason is that our Rules in their opening paragraph oblige us to follow the 1958 edition of Beauchesne. And although I understand there is a new edition in course of preparation, it would not have any binding effect either in this House, unless it were specifically adopted in our Rules. MR. DIXON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, but I still think that any time an hon. member can get on his feet -- MR. HYNDMAN: The hon. gentleman opposite has had exercise.

He should put this to the House in the form of a motion so that it can be debated, but he is not rising on any point of privilege or point of order, or anything on the Orders of the Day. MR. DIXON: I certainly am rising on a point of privilege. Any member can get up in this House and ask for on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, surely. What kind of a parliament are we running? The trouble is, you don't agree with my point and you want to howl me down, that's all. MR.

SPEAKER: I think that we should, perhaps, if we're going to deal with this point, bring it up in the usual way if I may respectfully suggest to the hon. Member for Calgary Millican. There is one thing I would like to mention with regard to the sound system in the House. It has been thoroughly checked and rechecked on a number of occasions, but we find that no amount of checking equals actual use. There have been some problems, especially in the top bench to my right and the middle bench, with regard to the speaker on the far side. Now we've had it rechecked.

I think perhaps some of the remaining problem is due to the variation in volume of some of the member's outputs into our inputs, and I wonder if the members without shouting -- just for the time being until we see whether we are improving the situation of the hon. members I've mentioned -- if they could just speak a little louder so that we could see whether we have got this adjusted properly now. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS Motion No. 1 MR. DICKIE: I beg to move, seconded by the hon. Mr. Hyndman:

Be it resolved that Rules, Orders and Forms of the Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta be amended by adding the following rule after Rule 24: Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 176

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-19 24 (a)

(1) There shall be a printed record of the deliberations and proceedings of the sittings of the Assembly to be known as the "Alberta Hansard" which shall be compiled, edited, printed, distributed and administered under the direction and authority of the Speaker, in accordance with this rule.

(2) The Speaker may engage such staff and obtain such equipment as is necessary for the production of the Alberta Hansard.

(3) The Speaker shall be responsible for the maintenance of sound recording equipment for the recording of the deliberations and proceedings of the sittings of the Assembly and the custody of the taped records produced therefrom.

(4) The Alberta Hansard shall be produced daily from the taped records of the sittings of the Assembly.

(5) The guidelines used by the Speaker in editing shall be as follows: (

a) revisions shall be limited to the correction of grammar, spelling and punctuation, ensuring that the correct parliamentary forms are observed, and minimizing superfluous repetition and redundancies but no material alterations shall be made, nor any amendments which would in any way tend to change the sense of what has been spoken; (

b) the transcript shall remain an accurate and, as far as possible, an exact report of what was said; (

c) a member has no right to alter the report of any speech or remarks attributed to him in any way and the Speaker shall determine whether or not a member's suggested correction shall be admitted; (

d) unless otherwise agreed upon with the Speaker, a member must inform the editor within 30 minutes of the adjournment of any sitting of the Assembly of any corrections he wishes to suggest; (

e) unless a member can demonstrate, to the satisfaction of the Speaker, that he has been misreported, a member may not change the sense of anything that he has been recorded as saying, nor shall the member be permitted to make any insertion as an afterthought nor strike out a passage which he regrets having uttered.

(6) Copies of the Alberta Hansard will be made available at no charge as follows: (

a) each member of the Assembly shall receive one copy and, in the discretion of the Speaker, may receive no more than nine additional copies; (

b) Deputy Ministers of departments of the public service shall receive not more than five copies for the use of their departments; (

c) the Provincial Librarian, the Provincial Archivist and libraries and newspapers approved by the Speaker shall receive one copy.

(7) Other copies of the Alberta Hansard will be provided at the following rates: (

a) Daily $15.00 per annum (

b) Weekly $12.50 per annum Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 177

5-20 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 (

c) Sessionally $10.00 per annum (

d) Individual copies .25 cents each

(8) The Alberta Hansard shall commence with an issue for March 2nd, 1972 and shall consist of an issue for every day of the sittings of the Legislative Assembly thereafter.

(9) The Speaker shall table an annual report of the Alberta Hansard within 15 days of the commencement of each Session, commencing in 1973. And

be it resolved that all previous resolutions of the Assembly concerning the recording and transcription of the proceedings of the Assembly are revoked, effective as of March 2, 1972. Mr. Speaker, I would first like to suggest to the hon. members that it is very fitting on this historical and memorable occasion of the first week of the sittings of the first Progressive Conservative government of the Province of Alberta that one of the first major resolutions that this Assembly will be invited to consider, will be a resolution establishing a daily Alberta Hansard.

It is proposed that the publication record daily the deliberations and proceedings of this Assembly. I was interested to note, Mr. Speaker, in reading some of the history behind Hansard and dealing particularly with Australia, that the question of a daily Hansard was debated in Australia and mooted for some 50 years, and after 13 years of its use they then had a committee to review the benefits that they derived in Australia. That committee made an interesting statement, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to read it to the members of the Assembly.

"A daily Hansard is an indispensable requirement to enable members to discharge their duties efficiently." Mr. Speaker, it was also equally important that some of the members also commented, and another interesting comment that I think that we ought to consider in this Assembly, is as follows -- they placed equal emphasis on the necessity for a daily Hansard as a means of forming sound public opinion and public policy, a daily report, as it were, for the people as much as for the parliamentarians. Now, Mr.

Speaker, having worked with my colleagues on this side for some months now, I'm sure that there will be many benefits to be derived by having their golden words, their meaningful ideas and their persuasive arguments transcribed into a daily Hansard. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to suggest, too, that it's important for the members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. It is hoped that they strive to become a responsible opposition. It is also hoped that they present many constructive suggestions and I would like to say if that's the case, Mr.

Speaker, the advantages of the pages of Hansard will record their deeds and activities. Now, Mr. Speaker, in considering this motion, the members of this Assembly have an advantage today, in that we do have -- and it has been submitted to all members of the Assembly -- a report by J. Peter Swann. It's entitled 'A Report Relating to the Publication of the Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta'. It's a very comprehensive report. It covers the comparisons of the Province of Alberta with other places in Canada as to the use of a Hansard and I invite all members to consider it in detail.

It is not my intention during the course of this debate to relate to all of the meaningful passages in that report, but I would like to highlight one of the main aspects that deals with eight identifiable groups that benefit from Hansard. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 178

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-21 The hon. members who have read the report will recall that they first cite MLA's, and I think I might add to the

section that dealt with that, that one of the real benefits we could derive would be to record, in a daily Hansard, the rulings of the rules of procedure, Mr. Speaker. I think it would be important to have those built up over a number of years so that we could use them as precedents and perhaps in that way solve some of the debates and questions that we've had on the questions of procedure that have taken place in this House. Number 2 was the press gallery, weekly press, the Civil Service, industry, commerce, the professions, and the public. Here, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps when we talk about the public and the people of Alberta in giving them a daily report on our activities, we might raise that from No. 6 to No. 1. Students of current affairs and students of history will also benefit. Now with those brief remarks, Mr. Speaker, I would like to invite the hon. members to consider the resolution that is presently before them. I would first like to refer to the first part of the resolution which states that we are amending the rules, orders and forms of the proceedings. Mr. Speaker, that is the Bible that we follow here for our rules.

We felt that it was important for the members to consider that when you do pass this resolution, it then becomes embodied in the rules; that when you do research, perhaps a year or two later, that one won't have to go through all the various records that have been established over the year, but they will actually turn to the rules and it can be easily found. So I think that's an important aspect to consider, Mr. Speaker. The next point I would like to consider is under Subsection 1, and that deals with the

section dealing with the Alberta Hansard. We will actually call it the Alberta Hansard. It will be compiled, edited, printed, distributed and administered under the direction and authority of the Speaker. I would like to emphasize that it is under the direction and authority of you, Mr. Speaker. I think many times we will hear in this House, and we have in the past, that the Speaker is the servant of the House. He is not the servant of the government or the opposition but is the servant of all the members of this Legislative Assembly, and I was pleased to say Mr.

Speaker, when I listened to your opening remarks when you took the Chair, I think your remarks exemplified the high honour and position that you consider as being the Speaker. It was brought home to my attention when your remarks dealt with the question of your dress -- and you may have some concern about how you dress in this House -- but I think your remarks, as I recall them, were that that was something to be decided by the Assembly. I think, Mr.

Speaker, again you recognized your position as the Speaker and I think it is only appropriate therefore, that when we talk about an Alberta Hansard, it be under your direction and authority. Now in Item number 2: The Speaker shall engage such staff and obtain such equipment as is necessary for the production of the Alberta Hansard. In that regard, Mr. Speaker, I might just read the proposed procedure that will be followed for all hon. members regarding the preparation and distribution of the Alberta Hansard. I have listed them in point form, and I will read them through in that order: 1. Mr.

Speaker will appoint a Hansard editor and such other staff as are necessary. 2. As in the past, proceedings of the Legislature will be recorded on magnetic tape, in addition to the archive tapes. Transcription tapes of five minute duration will also be made. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 179

5-22 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 3. A team of seven transcribers will replace each other in the sound booth at five minute intervals. 4. At the end of each such tape the transcriber will take the five minute tape back to the office and produce a rough typewritten draft. 5. The typewritten draft will be taken to the editors who will make such corrections as they see fit according to the editing guidelines. 6. Copies of the edited draft will be made and delivered to the desks of the members who have spoken during the segnment of the proceedings, and copies to others at the discretion of Mr. Speaker. 7.

Members may suggest changes in accordance with guidelines and any dispute which may arise between the member and the editor will be resolved by reference to Mr. Speaker. 8. The corrected drafts will then be used to prepare a final version which shall be issued on a daily basis. 9. Any subsequent corrections to the record will have to be made by the member making a correction statement on the floor of the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, those cover the proposed procedure to be followed.

The next item I would like to refer to the hon. members in the Resolution is perhaps the most important one, and that is Item No. 5: The guidelines used by the Speaker in editing shall be as follows: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer here to a comment by Mr. Peter Swann in his report and that's on page 70, in which he states, "This is perhaps the most important issue to be decided in the consideration of establishing a printed record of procedings." That is the editing, and Mr. Speaker, when you are considering editing you are really considering a Hansard.

That is the definition of Hansard which was defined in 1907, and I would like to read briefly one or two comments in the description of a Hansard: "It is a full report in the first person of all speakers alike.

A full report being defined as one, though not strictly verbatim, is substantially the verbatim report with repetitions and redundancies omitted and with obvious mistakes corrected but which on the other hand leaves out nothing that adds to the meaning of the speech or illustrates the argument." I have another quote which is just a little variation of it but there again, I think it is important that we realize the editing aspect. "The Hansard reporter is engaged in the preparation of an historic record. His task is to assist the parliamentarian to present his case clearly.

In the heat of the debate, few speakers are able to express themselves as logically and as concisely as they would desire. Hansard is a report which, although not strictly verbatim, is substantially the verbatim report with repetitions and redundancies omitted and obvious mistakes corrected, but which on the other hand, leaves out nothing that adds to the meaning of the speech or illustrates the argument." Now, Mr.

Speaker, it was interesting in Australia when they did have a conference on that and they were commenting on those aspects and I'd like to read this comment to some of my agricultural friends -- "I join with my friends from Victoria and South Australia in complimenting the Hansard staff on the production of the report of Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 180

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-23 yesterday's proceedings in such a short time. I think it has given us some indication of the value of a daily Hansard. Mr. Riches remarked that he could not recognize some of the speeches. That is not unusual. I have said many times in parliament that the Hansard boys are the only ones who appear to be able to give the lie to the old adage that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They seem to accomplish the feat very well." Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is not my intention today to review some of the speeches that we have recorded in the past, because I think they have been made on both sides of the House, and I think that if the hon. members will go over their speeches they will see that there can be a great deal of room for improvement. I think it's important that we do consider the question of editing, and I think that in that respect we felt that this is a question of the historical background and the Hansard traditions of editing. We have tried to set them out in this resolution under items (a), (b), (c), (

d) and (

e) so that the hon. members and the people who are looking at the rules will know exactly what procedure is followed in editing. Now it may be, Mr. Speaker, that some of the hon. members will have suggestions in the wording. I'd like to suggest to you that this is the traditional wording that has built up over a number of years and it should be accepted by all hon. members. Now, Mr. Speaker, in going on with the resolutions, Items 6, 7, 8 and 9, I'm pleased to say that the seconder of the motion, Mr.

Hyndman, will deal with those aspects as well as cost, and give you a very interesting historical background on Hansard. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to second this important, and I think very timely motion. The mover of the motion, the Minister of Mines and Minerals has, I think, very effectively and succinctly dealt with points 1 to 5. I'd like to deal with points 6, 7, 8 and 9 briefly, but before doing so, to review in capsule form the interesting history of Hansard and perhaps present a snapshot picture of the recording procedures that we have had in this House for the past two years.

It was in 1803, Mr. Speaker, that a gentleman by the name of William Corbett first started the regular reporting of parliamentary debates, and his reporting -- there were a number of reporters at that time -- was noted for a high spirit of integrity and fair mindedness, and as a report that was free of partisan bias. In those days many reporters, if one reads the reports of parliament in those days, were very partisan, but Mr. Corbett's works were considered to be of high calibre. Eight years later Mr. Corbett sold his interest to a printer by the name of Thomas Hansard.

He was the son of the printer to the House of Commons, and the Hansard to which all the recordings of proceedings in the Assemblies and the Commonwealth today owe their name. It wasn't until 1909 that the first official report of debates in the British House of Commons came out. The Canadian House has a somewhat longer history in that there has been, since 1875, an official and verbatim record of debates in the Canadian House of Commons. The Province of Ontario has an unbroken record since 1944 and the most recent addition to the list, hopefully Alberta, will be very close to that tradition.

The most recent one was British Columbia which did not start until 1970. The provinces of P.E.I. and Alberta record proceedings on tape and they only make transcripts of selected portions and no effort at formal publication, a Hansard, is undertaken in these two provinces. The present practice in Alberta dates from 1965, at which time a sound amplification system was installed and a resolution was passed Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 181

5-24 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 recommending that the government record proceedings of all future sessions. The Clerk of the Assembly was authorized to prepare from them a verbatim report of the speeches made by members during the Throne Speech and the Budget debates and on other occasions as the House may direct. There was a charge of five cents per page over and above the first copy supplied, and hon. members will recall record procedings of all future sessions.

The Clerk of the Assembly was authorized to prepare from them a verbatim report of the speeches made by members during the Throne Speech and the Budget Debates or on other occasions as the House might direct. There was a charge of five cents per page over and above the first copy supplied and the hon. members will recall that it was an 9 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper, double spaced, which last year was reduced in size.

Now in Alberta over the last few years it became customary, although not officially recognized or authorized, that the Question Period was automatically transcribed as a matter of priority and available the day following the day in which questions and answers were given. However, during the 1971 session, just last year, transcripts were made of virtually everything that was said in this Chamber while the Mace was on the Table.

This brought about an extra burden on the transcription service and the task of preparing the transcripts of the session ending in the Spring of 1971 was not completed until about July, two months after the session prorogued. So Mr. Speaker, although this House has been moving in the direction of a Hansard, we do not have one at this time and as of now Alberta is one of only two Canadian provinces without an official printed record of debates. With regard to some of the groups who would derive benefit from a Hansard, and the hon. Minister who moved the motion spoke briefly of them, Mr.

Speaker, I think it's perhaps axiomatic that the public of Alberta, the citizens of Alberta should have the easiest possible access to a record of what their MLA's in this Assembly are saying. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that it is imperative that the discussions by members of the Chamber here should be available verbatim to the general public for their own

interpretation as to what went on in this Assembly, and not for somebody else's opinion. I think this is something of real value to all the citizens of the province. A second identifiable group, Mr. Speaker, of course are the Members of this Chamber who could use a Hansard in a great variety of ways. A member may wish to verify what he said on a previous day or days. He may wish to draw his remarks to the attention of one or more people, and of course his or her constituents would be in the groups considered there.

Perhaps a statement of a fellow member on an opposite side of the House raises a question which could then be referred to a constituent or an expert for confirmation or comment. Inconsistencies could be pointed out. And of course in replying to a major speech from the other side, a member can analyze that speech in detail to make his own remarks as factual and forceful as possible, having the complete written record of what the other side has said. Immediate access, of course, Mr.

Speaker, and this is what a Hansard provides, is of importance because if a member is going to speak tomorrow, then he must have the record that is available of the day previous and a record a week later is of little value or importance. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, the third groups, the press gallery and the news media representatives generally, have a keen interest and I think would find the Hansard most useful. Their reports must be topical and instant information is what the news media today wish to have. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 182

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-25 In Mr. Swann's report on page 37, he quotes a journalist, Mr. Richard Bronstein, who when asked to comment on this matter said: "As a working journalist it would be much handier to have a Hansard than to clip the newspapers, much more accurate too. It would be a valuable reference source to develop themes, and to keep a watch on the politicians and to hold them to their word. And nothing short of an authoritative Hansard would do." In addition to the press gallery, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that we not ignore the weekly press in this province.

I believe that most of the weekly newspapers in Alberta do not maintain press gallery membership. Certainly their needs are somewhat different from the daily press and the broadcasters, but they have, I think, experienced difficulty in obtaining information they need to do their job properly in the many centres of this province outside of the two largest. I do not feel, Mr. Speaker, that they should be ignored and I feel that their needs are not met simply by taped records available in Edmonton or by sporadically available transcripts at five cents a page.

It seems to me that only a full transcript available with reasonable dispatch, quickly, to the weekly editor is the only way in which he can carry out the sincere effort to provide objective coverage that he wants to provide in all areas in all parts of this province. Certainly the areas of industry, commerce, labour organizations and the professions, Mr. Speaker, have in other provinces shown great interest in Hansard. In fact, most subscribers by mail to Hansard publications across Canada appear to be corporate subscribers, rather than individuals.

And if a bill is under discussion or has just been introduced which is of concern to any of those groups, by having a Hansard available quickly they may then have an opportunity to read exactly what is being said and debated. They can contact their MLA quickly, and they can ensure that their concerns are heard before the legislation, or the matter under discussion, is concluded in the Assembly. It goes without saying, Mr.

Speaker, that students of current affairs, and I'm thinking of the 430,000 youngsters who are students in our schools in this province, students in the colleges and all kinds of educational institutions and universities, have an interest in current affairs. Certainly the students of history would find it of special merit. I think the value of Hansard as an archival record is almost inestimable, because, I think, Mr.

Speaker, there is a bit of history made every day in this Chamber as we go through the business, and with every motion passed there is something new added in the parliamentary history of this province. And who can really say as to how significant this will be in five, ten or fifty years?. Concerning paragraph 6 of the resolution, Mr. Speaker, there is, under sub-paragraph (

c) the word 'newspapers' appearing as part of the motion which suggests that Hansard be available at no charge to "newspapers approved by the Speaker". I think that that should be construed broadly as including not only newspapers, but all media who would wish to have access to Hansard and I think that under the direction of the hon. Speaker there would be no difficulty in making a free copy of Hansard available to all media involved. A brief word regarding the costs of Hansard, Mr. Speaker, and these are dealt with in Appendix B, the third page particularly of Mr.

Swann's report on pages 81 - 83, but it's instructive to note the costs in other parts of Canada: in Manitoba, the cost of $2,500 per week, or approximately $10,000 per month; in New Brunswick, $56,000 for a year's Sessions; Nova Scotia, $50,000; in Ontario, $500,000, half a million dollars for their Hansard for one year; in the Province of Quebec, $900,000 for one year; in Saskatchewan, $20,000, Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 183

5-26 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 and in Alberta although because we do not have the experience of running a Hansard, it is not known what it would cost, I should think somewhere in the area of from $45,000 to $55,000 for coverage of a year's sessions would be in the ball park. Now to cover, Mr. Speaker, an average of the annual sessions in Alberta over the last four years would amount to a cost of say $45,000 to $55,000, about three cents per year per every man, woman and child in the Province of Alberta.

And in noting that the estimated costs of the 1971 general election in this province were approximately $1.6 million, that's official Government expenses, spread over four years ( this is an annual cost to the public for elections of over $400,000), it seems to me that if the taxpayers are going to spend this much to elect representatives to this Chamber, it's reasonable to spend a further 12 per cent of this or $45,000 to $55,000 to keep a record of what the legislators say when they are here during those four years. I think, also, Mr.

Speaker, it's perhaps impossible to place a monetary value on the historical record that we would have with the Hansard. I wonder how much it would be worth in cold, hard dollars to study the record of the debate leading up to the end of the Rutherford Government or study the record of what was said when Major Douglas appeared in this Chamber, in, I believe 1935, to give evidence regarding Social Credit theory. It's a record of substantial historical interest.

Indeed, the record of the noteworthy and historic speech of the hon. member for Pincher Creek- Crowsnest regarding the need for assistance for the Pincher Creek Symphony Orchestra, all these matters, I think, are of value and something to be retained and should be available for perusal in future. Now, regarding, Mr. Speaker, subsidization of the cost of the Hansard, subscriptions to the Hansard across Canada, and indeed in the Commonwealth are almost universally subsidized very heavily by the public purse. Ottawa charges, as members know, $3 per session which covers printing costs of four daily editions.

No province asks more than $10 per session from citizens for the Hansard. At a subscription rate of $20 per session, and the resolution proposes half of that, $10, the Alberta Government would still bear over two- thirds of the cost. I submit, sir, that we cannot really ever expect any substantial revenue from subscriptions. It's not to be a revenue producing operation, because the availability, quickly and easily, of Hansard to persons of all economic walks of life in Alberta is the important thing.

It is noteworthy that a daily subscription rate of $15, as stated in the resolution, would fall short of covering the printing and mailing cost by about $2.50, so there's a subsidy of that amount if we were to agree to the motion of $15. Honourable members may have seen in the Edmonton Journal of February 29th, 1972, an invitation asking for subscriptions, subject to the approval of the Assembly, setting forth the fact that these would be available.

Perhaps of interest to hon. members is that already 75 people or organizations have indicated they would like to be subscribers to such Hansard as we may have, and one distinguished intending subscriber is a former Social Credit member of the Legislative Assembly. Without having the experience of a year or two of Hansard operation, it is difficult to say whether the rates as suggested in paragraph 7, Mr. Speaker, are right or wrong.

I believe that after we have had this experience and when we have seen whether some persons in Alberta are finding it difficult to afford these rates, then after the first session we should have a Legislative Committee perhaps, or some group, to see whether they should be changed. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the implemention of a Hansard will take Alberta from the position of being one of only two Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 184

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-27 provinces without a record to a point where we would be in step with the rest of Canada in the method of recording legislative proceedings. I believe that, unquestionably, it would be of great present and potential value and of assistance to all the media, the public, the citizenry of the province, the weekly press, the MLA's and students. And most important, Mr.

Speaker, I believe it would provide Alberta citizens with better access to their Legislature, generate more interest by them in the workings of their Legislature, and in short, I think it would result in a more informed citizenry, better able to offer valuable advice and comment to all of us. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I am rising to pass along to the members of the Assembly a few comments that I have with regard to the motion which is before the members of the Assembly today.

If you will permit me for just a moment, sir, to reminisce back some 11 years to the first opportunity I had to sit in this Assembly, I can't help but think of a number of changes, not just in faces and positions and so on, but also relating to the discussion of Hansard itself; in the sound arrangements in the Assembly -- sound thinking in terms of the sounds back and forth -- and certainly I'm sure that most members, all members hopefully, would concur with the advancements which have been made over those number of years. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the motion on the Order Paper today, it can well be said, is a natural outgrowth of the developments which have taken place over a period of years.

And I might say, perhaps at the outset, that the contribution made by the mover and the seconder, I think, established a tone in which members of the Assembly may look at this with a non-partisan approach, an approach hopefully which will be in the best interests of the people of the province of Alberta, because regardless of where we sit in this Assembly, I'm sure all of us are here with that purpose and that must be number one with each and every one of us. As far as the members of the Social Credity party are concerned, Mr.

Speaker, we endorse and support the contents of the motion which is under discussion at this particular time. However, before my friend the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals perhaps smiles too broadly, I might suggest that in one or two areas the motion before us today could have gone somewhat further. And later on in the course of my remarks I propose to make an adendment which, hopefully, will receive the sincere and genuine attention of all members of the House because we feel that it would certainly help to make Hansard the type of publication from which everyone in the province would benefit.

I am reminded, Mr. Speaker, of the hon. member from Calgary Glemore who moved the motion. A number of years ago when he sat in this House -- I suppose it depends on where you sit and how you look at things and that was before he had seen the first light anyway he was a member of a party that has become somewhat extinct, at least in provincial politics in this province.

It would be very interesting, I think, for us over here and perhaps some of the members across the way, regardless of which bench they may sit on or where that bench may be, to peruse some of the comments that the hon. member made on a number of occasions with regard to the government, of course. But I may also say on the rarest of occasions he even reserved comments during that period of time for those people who he was going to see the light with before very long.

So when we look at Hansard and things that might have been, and perhaps things that should have been, the mover of the motion was most appropriately chosen under those circumstances. Now getting to the motion itself, Mr. Speaker, we on this side are prepared to approve and strongly endorse and support an Ottawa- type Hansard including all the debates, including the question Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 185

5-28 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 periods, and certainly including all the committee meetings held in this particular Chamber. In addition to that, we certainly support the people in the press, radio and television making use of tapes, recordings, cameras and television equipment here in the Chamber. We would go one step further Mr. Speaker -- and my colleague, Mr.

Wilson will be commenting on this somewhat later -- we would go, I think we would, I'm sure we would, one step further in having an external speaker placed in the press workroom, so that in fact the members of the press gallery when they are working hard, would have the opportunity to be tuned in, or clued in, depending on one's point of view. I also think, Mr. Speaker, that all members in the Assembly should do all we can to encourage people across the province, be they in education, be they citizens in whatever walk of life, to make use of the Hansard which I am very hopeful we are going to have.

Because members of the Assembly, especially during this first session after Hansard will be in effect, I think can have a real influence on people as to the amount of use it has made of it or the amount of use that isn't made of it. I suggest also to the hon. members that the way in which each of us as members respond to Hansard, and whether we choose to get everything we feel we absolutely must have on the record and stretch the session out a great deal and pop up on numerous occasion, is of course open to the choice of each member.

I say to the members of this session, this Assembly, at this time that the way in which we as members respond to having Hansard being made public in the way in which it is suggested, will have a pronounced influence on the way Hansard is used next year and in the Legislatures to follow. So I hope members would react in a manner which would be in keeping. Certainly we on this side, Mr. Speaker, would encourage a continuous review of how the Legislature can make more available to the public those things which go on in the Assembly here. Before going any further, Mr.

Speaker, I refer the members of the Assembly to the report that has been alluded to previously and the recommendation on page 84.

The first recommendation, and I quote, "that each member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta should, in the light of his own concept of the Legislative Assembly, decide how he believes its activities and deliberations should be reported for the benefit of the province as a whole, both now and in the future." This says, it seems to me, that all members of the Assembly, regardless of where they sit, find themselves in a comfortable position with regard to Hansard, find themselves in a situation of knowing what's going on, and whether Hansard develops on the lines that have been mentioned here already this afternoon.

I must say that with regard to the comments made by the seconder of the motion, at this time we won't quarrel with your estimate of $45,000 to $55,000, but I think in the true tradition this may be considered as a conservative estimate. I think, Mr.

Speaker, in looking at this, the first year of operation of Hansard and also looking at this conservative estimate, keeping in mind, at least hopefully, the desire of all members to make Hansard effective, and to improve the use of Hansard, we on this side would like the members of the Assembly to very seriously consider two amendments to the resolution which is before us. Moved by myself and seconded by the hon. member, Mr. Wilson, that the motion be amended by adding the following sections:

Section 10 -- A Management and Utilization Committee under chairmanship of the Speaker, with members of both sides of the House represented, to be established to monitor and improve upon the operation of Hansard. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 186

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-29

Section 11 -- A formal request be made to the press gallery for its submission to the Legislature of a code of conduct, and upon approval by Mr. Speaker the press shall be deemed to be recognized by this Assembly. Mr. Speaker, in concluding my remarks, might I ask the hon. members of the Assembly to consider seriously this amendment and might I say that we, on this side, the members of the Social Credit Party, do all that we can to co-operate and make Hansard the type of record of this Assembly that we feel appropriate at this time. Might I just say, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion that the amendment which we have proposed should, Sir, be seen in no way as a reflection upon the confidence that the members of this side of the House have in you, Sir. We do feel that it would be advantageous to have a committee such as outlined here, to be somewhat involved in the operation of Hansard from the standpoint of the costs, also from the standpoint, Mr. Speaker, of members becoming more knowledgeable of Hansard itself.

Thirdly, perhaps the hon. member who seconded the motion made the point that a Legislative Committee might be struck after one year to look at the operation of Hansard. We feel that perhaps a more reasoned approach might be for a committee under your chairmanship, Sir, to be involved in Hansard from the time Hansard starts and from time to time, through you, sir, report back to the members of this Assembly. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Speaker, in seconding this motion, I would like to compliment the two hon. members opposite who proposed and seconded the original motion, and I would also like to compliment my hon. colleague for the way he presented the amendment. The debate thus far, I feel, has been very valuable, clear, and concise to all concerned. Mr. Speaker, the Social Credit caucus is in favour of official recognition of the press including tape recordings, cameras and television coverage, plus an external speaker in their press working area.

We would suggest that a formal request be made to the Press Gallery Association for submission to the Legislature of a code of conduct, this to include such things as who can become a member, what facilities they require and how they propose to enforce their regulations. Now, in discussing this, I would like to refer to the Swann Report and quote a few exerpts from it.

On page 17, under the heading "Existing Media Coverage", it says, "To be entitled to report the proceedings of the Alberta Legislature one must at present be a member of the Press Gallery Association, a structured and respected organization consisting of the accredited representatives of the news media. Membership is available to almost any bona fide reporter willing to conform to the rules of the Association, although some difficulty has recently been met in deciding where to draw the line.

Does the monthly publication of a professional association, or the house organ of a large employer, qualify on the same basis as the daily newspaper or the community radio station, and if not, why not?" We would think, Sir, that this would be a fit topic for the members of the Press Gallery Association to consider in their code of conduct, should the amendment be carried. Then on page 31 it stipulates that consideration should be given to the weekly papers and out of town broadcasters. I think that this has been partially covered, but we would like to see this, Mr.

Speaker, also considered by the Press Gallery Association in the formation of their code of conduct. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 187

5-30 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 Then we have further assistance from the Swann Report on page 55, and it says: " -- the development of a code of conduct to control the activities of those permitted to enter the press gallery. Any such code should obviously have teeth enough to ensure its adherence. Little in the way of cost to the government would ensue, other than minor expenditures for the installation of jacks for tape recorders." This too, we feel, should be included in the press gallery's code of conduct.

Then on Page 85 in the recommendations of the Swann Report, Item No. 6: "That the Government should prepare a resolution for introduction at an early stage of the next session of the Legislature which will give official recognition to the press, and which will set out such restrictions on their activities as it deems necessary." Well, sir, we in the Social Credit caucus are most happy as members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to make the amendment which would extend official recognition to the press. Further Mr.

Speaker, we in the Social Credit caucus are in favour of a free vote on the matter of Hansard and urge members of the government to approach this important question with a similiar open mind. My hon. colleague Mr. Clark, read item No. 1 out of the Swann recommendations on Page 84, and I think we can read that item No. 1 in relationship toward a free vote and take some guidance from it. I was most pleased to hear the hon. Minister of Education quoting Mr. Richard Bronstein. I regard Mr.

Bronstein as a fine gentlemen and I might remind the hon. member of one other notable Bronstein quote: "The cost is easy to justify." So with that in mind I was pleased to hear the hon. Minister of Education confirm the expected expenditure of being somewhere in the realm of $45,000 to $55,000 per year. Thank you. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak against the amendment, and my Irish blood is rising so I would like, if you will allow me, first of all to start in a rather low tone and work up to what I think about the proposition in the amendment by the opposition.

First of all let me say that I am in favour of the Hansard. Proccedings of this Assembly are exceedingly important, they deal with the peoples' business as conducted by the elected representatives of the people. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln -- with a written record there will be less of a chance to fool any of the people any of the time. As a journalist of some years standing, I know how often politicians claim that they have been misquoted.

Often this is because of the limitations of space, where the editorial matter is crammed in between the ads and statements have to be condensed, and sometimes it's because judgments of even the fourth estate are not infallible. The reporter may choose colourful passages out of context, and the person quoted may complain that the report doesn't accurately reflect his speech, with all the high tones and the low tones and the inuendoes and so on. However, often the journalist in the haste of putting together a newspaper is at fault, not always wrong, but he is sometimes, and Hansard will be a check on veracity.

Now freedom of the press actually infers that somewhere there will be an accurate record, but it also infers the politicians such as these in this Chamber will keep their cotton-picking hands off the newspaper reporters. The amendment proposes that this House will begin to regulate the press; there is even talk about a code of conduct, of recognizing those who go into the press gallery as though they have to have a membership card. It sounds to me like a press gallery at a football game, where only the elite would be allowed.

I'm just astonished that such a proposition should come from the Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 188

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-31 opposition but I can understand how over the years they have perhaps resented some of the things that have been said. The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury was gently digging at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals about some of his past speeches. It would give me the greatest delight if I could read in print some of the remarks of 35 years ago about bankers and this sort of thing, and look at it in the light of today, and of what has happened to some of the prominent members.

However, my resentment of this amendment really comes deeply from the heart, and I do not believe that the introduction of the Hansard is the proper time for you fellows to try to put restrictions on the historic freedom of the press. I have no objection to the idea that you have an extension in the back room of the press gallery so that the fellows when they're smoking a cigarette can still hear what is being said within this Chamber. But when you get down to having a little handbook on how the working journalist should behave, then I think you're far, far off base. Pretty soon, the hon.

Premier has told us, we will be proceeding with a Bill of Rights -- a Bill of Rights that guarantees freedom of the press. On the first motion, the first motion of any substance is made in this House, it is amended by the opposition to include some control over the press. I just don't understand how you can come up with such a thing. And then to suggest that it would have unanimous support; this is non-partisan, we have a free vote. All I implore you is to vote down the amendment and leave the press alone. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I hadn't planned on taking

part in the discussion on this amendment, but after the hon. member for Calgary North Hill has set up a straw man, then made a good speech in knocking him down, I have to take advantage of the opportunity, because I want to make it abundantly clear that we want no control over the press -- no control whatsoever. The amendment is not giving any control over the press. The amendment is simply a formal request to the press, a formal request. We're not putting down any restrictions, any limitations, any of anything.

It is simply a formal request that the press gallery submit, if they wish to do so, a code of conduct that they will require for members of the press gallery. Now I believe the press gallery have always required a code of conduct. I think every newspaper in the country requires a code of conduct. Every individual requires a code of conduct. The Progressive Conservative caucus requires a code of conduct. The Social Credit Caucus requires a code of conduct. And even the caucus of the Socialist Party in the House requires a code of conduct. His will be a little easier to enforce than the rest. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want to reiterate that we have no desire in any way, shape or form to control the press or to censor the press. And if any hon. members are going to bring up bills that were passed 20 or 30 years ago, that I don't think has relevance in this debate. No one on this side of the House was even in the House when that legislation was discussed -- not even I. And surely, the members of the Legislature, when the formal request is being made to the press for a code of conduct, which if they don't want to give it, is entirely up to them. It's simply a formal request.

Then I can't see how anybody could interpret that as having some desire on our part to control the press. And again I reiterate. Let's be factual, let's not throw stones or put words or insinuations into anybody else's actions. We have taken this resolution as presented, excellently I might say, by the hon. ministers, as something that the party has carefully considered and considered important enough to bring to the attention of the Legislature. We accept that this is the purpose of doing this, and surely our amendment should be taken in the same spirit.

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 189

5-32 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 Surely our press gallery in Ottawa and the press gallery in Edmonton in this Legislature to a lesser degree have their own rules and regulations and we don't want to interfere with those. I don't want to have any say about who's going to be a member of the press gallery in this. I think the press men and the representatives of the various news media are well able to determine those things themselves.

But I don't have any objections to knowing what they are and this is all this is, a formal request that the press gallery, if they choose to tell us, let us know what their rules and regulations are. If they have none, simply tell us so. If they have some, if they wish to tell us, let us know. If they have rules of conduct that they wish to make known, then let us know. I can't see anything wrong with that.

It's not a vital principle, it's simply a formal request and whether it's not even that relevant or that important to the resolution, it's simply I think saying that we have confidence in the press gallery in this province and if they have rules and regulations that have been adopted by them, that they want to be made public, we would appreciate knowing that. We even requested that it come through the Speaker, so that there is not even any possible chance of it being misinterpreted by the other ordinary members. In connection with the other item in the amendment, I think it's in line with what the hon.

Minister of Mines and Minerals mentioned that they did in Australia. They did it several years later, that is right, which is a committee set up to review; is this expenditure worthwhile? And we may well want to do that at some time in the future because public money is being expended, and every hon. member of this House realizes that every cent we spend is coming out of the pockets of the people. Many of them are having a tough time and we have to watch the expenditures with care and with respect. A few years from now we may well want to set up a committee to review the entire matter.

That's for future Legislatures to decide. But hon. members surely are aware of the Parkinson Law which is applicable to governments perhaps more -- or legislatures, let me put it that way -- more than even to individuals, or applicable as much to governments and legislatures as it is to private companies where there is a desire to build an empire, where there is a desire to expand and it's not difficult to find reasons to expand. I'm glad the hon. Minister of Education included in his address that the estimated cost was $45,000 to $55,000. I think this is a reasonable figure.

I don't think I'll have any difficulty in selling to my constituents, the people who sent me here, that three cents per person is out of the way to establish an historical record, to establish a record so they can see what their member said, what other members said. So that at the next election they may decide perhaps a little better than at any other time whether they want to return that member or whether they want a new member. This is one of the purposes of this, and I think a logical purpose because we live in a democracy where members are expected to represent the people who send them here.

I'm sure everyone of us, irrespective of where we sit, endeavours to do that. In the new program that's starting up, in order to make sure that it doesn't suddenly expand, surely the best possible way is to have some members who will have to be answerable to the public on a committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Mr. Speaker to keep a tab on it. There might be logical reasons why the figure $45,000 to $55,000 goes outside the ball park. We hope it is within the ball park, we had hoped it could be done for less. But I think the figures are on the conservative side as my hon. colleague mentioned.

I think whoever did the work on this wanted it done that way. They don't want to be extravagant, they want to make use of every dollar spent. When you appoint civil servants, they then become responsible to ministers or to legislatures. It is the elected representative who has to go out and justify this, take the sores and the brunts from Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 190

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-33 the people who are paying the bill. Consequently, I think it is a good thing the closer elected representatives can keep to the expenditures of public money. I think this is invariably true, whether it is in the municipal, the provincial, or the federal fields. That is all we are asking. We are not suspicious of anybody.

We just want to make sure that when we are starting on an expenditure in the vicinity of $50,000 per year, that we watch and see where we are going, because, as the hon. minister mentioned when he was speaking, the figures in Quebec are up in the vicinity of $900,000 a year. There is no relationship between that and $50,000 and in Ontario, $500,000. Quebec may have the double translation, I don't know, but Ontario may also translate into French. Maybe this is one of the reasons why it is $500,000. But remember, we are adopting a similar type of Hansard, the Ottawa type, a similar type.

I would hope that it would compare favourably with the excellent Hansard of the Province of Ontario. That is why I get a little nervous when I think, yes, I'm justifying and I am supporting a Hansard that is costing $50,000. But would I support it now, would other hon. members support it now in the light of the economic condition of hundreds of our people if it was $500,000? I would certainly have to give it an awful lot of thought, because $500,000 could do an awful lot of other things.

It could build more senior citizens' homes, it could bring more comfort in the government's priority to the mentally retarded, and so on. It could bring help to widows and there is no end of the things it could do. So, we are supporting it on the basis of the cost. But we don't want this cost to pyramid so that just a few years down the road, we are then talking about $300,000 or $400,000 or $500,000. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, and to the hon. members on all sides of the House, that our best control is to have elected representatives right at the doorstep.

If there is a justifiable reason for additional expenses beyond the $55,000, surely all members of the House, irrespective of which side they are on, will be responsible. But we don't want the expenditures to pyramid into $100,000 and then $150,000 and then $200,000, which it may well do if somebody is not keeping the score and somebody is not standing guard over it. I say that somebody should be an elected representative who must answer for the expenditure of money to the people. Mr. Speaker, this is all we are asking. In the addition of this amendment,

Section 10 simply asks that the Management and Utilization Committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Speaker, with members on both sides of the House, and with a majority from the government side, be established to monitor and improve upon the operation of Hansard. And inferred, not not written in there, of course, is the major item -- to watch the expenditure, to make sure we get full value out of every dollar spent. I think this is very essential.

Section 11 is, again, simply the formal request to the press -- if they wish to do it -- to let us know what their code of conduct is, if they have one. Maybe it is unfortunate that this is included in one resolution, but I would hope that the hon. members will not throw out the whole, or both, sections because they don't happen to like one or the other. If that is the case, I would much rather see an hon. member strike out the one that he doesn't like, because I think, if anything, that would be the request for the formal code of conduct. We really couldn't care less.

We think it is nice to know what the code of conduct of the press is, but we have no desire to censor or to control or to interfere in any way, shape, or form with the press. MR. HENDERSON: But we have, under

Section 10, a vitally important interest to make sure that we do not have pyramiding costs, pyramiding at the expense of the people of this province, as we want to keep that cost as low as possible, within the bounds given, if at all possible, to the $45,000 to $55,000. So in view of that, Mr. Speaker, I would Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 191

5-34 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 urge the hon. members to look at this amendment in the same spirit in which we have presented it, and a desire to be helpful, a desire to see that we get a good and a proper expenditure of public money out of this new expenditure of $45,000 to $55,000. MR. KING: On a point of order, this is sufficiently important to me that I would like to have your ruling on whether or not the second operative clause of the amendment, that is, to add

Section 11, is in order, or whether or not it is sufficiently distinguished from the content of the substantive motion as to be unrelated and out of order. MR. SPEAKER: I haven't had a great deal of time to consider this point raised by the hon. member for Edmonton Highlands. I would say, as a result of the short consideration that I've been able to give it, that perhaps it is related because it does deal with the press. MR. HENDERSON: May I address myself to the amendment, Mr. Speaker? I find that since this is a free vote, Mr. Speaker, I have to break rank for some of my colleagues on this side of the House.

Quite frankly, I think that the Management and Utilization Committee would be a desirable feature to have both members of this House assisting the Speaker with some of the ongoing problems, particularly in the initial periods, that may relate to the ground rules under which the Hansard is issued. I recall when we made the first decisions to set up the taping system, we set up some ground rules. As a result, I think there was consultation membership on the other side of the House on a committee, and it was a good measure, because it made a non-partisan issue out of any recommendations that came before this House.

I think this would be in the best interests of all concerned to support

Section 10 of the amendment. On the other hand, I do not think that

Section 11 adds anything particular to the exercise which is under general debate, namely that of the establishment of a provincial Hansard. Through the Speaker, the members of this House are in control at any time of what goes on inside this Assembly. I feel there is simply no need for any suggestion of a code of ethics affecting anyone, whether it is members on this Floor or members in the press gallery. The Speaker has the authority to deal with any problems which may arise. On a more personal note, I'm also a little bit concerned that, for example, a year or two ago before the hon.

Minister of Highways joined the ranks of the Conservative party, he and I went out and had a little enjoyment one evening. We did quite a phenomenal prairie chicken dance in part of this building. I don't know if I got caught in the back room even, that it would be acceptable procedure. We might not meet the standards of conduct that are going to be suggested by the members of the press gallery and I think that could be rather embarrassing to both of us -- casting no reflection on the member for Banff-Cochrane. But seriously, Mr. Speaker, I simply see no need and no logic behind the recommendation pertaining to

Section 11 of the proposed amendment, and I certainly move, Mr. Speaker, that

Section 11 be struck out, and hope that some hon. member of this Assembly would second that motion. MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. member from Spirit River-Fairview might have been on his feet first — Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 192

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-35 MR. NOTLEY: I wish to oppose the amendment, but I want, at the outset to congratulate the government -- MR. SPEAKER: May I just intrude for a moment. The hon. member for Wetaskiwin-Leduc has proposed a sub-amendment and perhaps we should find out whether there is a seconder. MR. RAY SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'll second that. MR. SPEAKER: I take it that we are now discussing the sub-amendment. I would be obliged if I might receive a copy as soon as possible. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I find myself opposed to the original amendment in favour of the sub-amendment as far as it goes.

I would like to see it passed but the original amendment thrown out, so we go right back to where we started again because I think it is very important that we recognize what the government has done here. I want to commend them for bringing in this resolution on Hansard.

I am not going to them very often during this session of the Legislature, but I do think that the motion as introduced is an excellent one; it's consistent with the history of Hansard; it is consistent with the most important point of all, and that is that as members of this Legislature we must be accountable to the people who have chosen us, and the only way we can really be accountable is if there is a Hansard, a full reporting of the events, of the speeches, of the comments made in this Legislative Assembly.

But as I look at the original amendment I find myself somewhat disturbed at the proposal of a Management Utilization Committee to monitor the effectiveness of this Hansard proposal. I am concerned about it Mr. Speaker, because I believe that it is important that we spend enough money, whether it is $45,000 or $100,000, so that the people of this province can know exactly what the people are saying and what they are doing who are entrusted with the responsibility of spending 1 1/4 billion dollars of the taxpayers' money.

So I would very much hate to see any quibbling over the continuation of Hansard in this province. I am convinced that under your guidance and your leadership it will be conducted in a manner which is beyond question and which is proper, efficient and consistent with the original resolution of this Assembly. Now to deal with the point that the hon. Member from Wetaskiwin- Leduc has raised, the amendment to the amendment to delete the proposal for a code of ethics from the press gallery.

I want to say that I support this particular amendment to the amendment, because I think that it is totally unnecessary and unrelated to the proposition of Hansard in the first place to request a code of ethics from the press gallery. It would seem to me Mr.

Speaker, that it would have made a great deal more sense before we had Hansard, to expect a code of ethics from the press gallery because at one time, before we had any accounting of the proceedings at all, we had to depend to a very large extent on the press coverage in order to find out what went on in the Legislature or in the memories of the members who were so assembled. But today, as we consider the introduction of a full- fledged Alberta Hansard, it seems to me totally unnecessary to ask for a code of ethics from the press gallery at this time.

Had the proposal been made back in 1935, 1936 or 1937, perhaps it might have been a different matter, but today it seems to me it's totally irrelevant; it's in no way connected with the import of this very i mportant motion. It's because I believe that what we are doing here Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 193

5-36 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 is important, Mr. Speaker, that I call upon the members of this Legislature to give Hansard a good chance to be successful and to stop playing around with amendments, but to get on with the job of passing this motion. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak on this most major resolution, Alberta Hansard, as on the Order Paper, and I do not agree with any amendment and for that reason can't support any sub-amendment.

A resolution for communication, a most human of all characteristics as I have mentioned in my maiden speech in the debate on the Throne Speech, I have to make this comment firstly and I think that this is a very important step to enhance a clear interaction between MLA's and the public. This is truly progress, progress to clear understanding and precise and concise knowledge of direction which would be based from this point on, not only on the spoken word but on the written and printed word which will be readily available.

I don't think that cost can come into being a factor here unless it is extremely extraordinary, because clear understanding between us, the Legislative Assembly, the MLA's and the people in our society is vital and very important, especially in this rapidly changing society we have.

I consider it a sincere privilege that I can be allowed to say these few words, that it may be recorded and recognized that I, the representative from Edmonton Kingsway, on behalf of my constituents, support the direction of this much improved communication; that I urge unanimous support for the Alberta Hansard by all members of this House for the province as originally read. DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, if I might suggest to you that we formally reject the amendments as submitted by the other side on the grounds that were so eloquently put by my colleague, the hon. member for Calgary North Hill, and we suggest that while we can agree with the sub- amendment, it could have been dealt with by deleting the amendment completely. Certainly a Management Utilization Committee takes away from the effectiveness of Hansard and in effect sets up an editorship of what Hansard might be able to do.

My hon. friend from Drumheller went on at great length about costs and so on as if there were no other methods to regulate the costs in this legislation and of course there are. There are the estimates that come before this House in regard to future spending. There are the public accounts that go before the public accounts of this legislature in relation to what has been spent and I want to suggest to him that there is ample room in either of those committees to look at the expenses that are involved.

To put anything in Hansard that is going to restrict it in any way takes away from the effectiveness of Hansard, and Mr. Speaker,

Section 11 is just totally unacceptable for all the very good reasons that my hon. friend from Calgary North Hill has given and for those that have been put forward by other members of this House. We totally reject the supposition that we should have a code of conduct imposed on anyone and it is against the Canadian Bill of Rights and against the Alberta Bill of Rights that will be introduced, and has been introduced into this Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Edmonton Highlands. MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a few remarks on this debate because it is one that I personally consider to be very important and necessary at the time of the assembly that the remarks should be made Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 194

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-37 publicly. I am concerned about the amendment and the sub-amendment, or more particularly, about the amendment as originally put. I don't question the motivation of the hon. members who moved and seconded the amendment but I have grave concern about whether or not they appreciated the implication of what the acceptance of their amendment would convey to this Legislature. I agree with the hon. member for Spirit River-Fairview on his remarks relating to the sub-amendment, and this is probably one of the few times during this session that I am going to.

The press sits behind the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly because they are not considered to be in or to be a part of the proceedings of this Assembly and that is important, not only for the press but for the members of the Assembly. The relationship between the Assembly and the press developed at a time when reporters were not in the Assembly to convey the facts of what had happened but rather to convey an

interpretation of the significance of it. Parliament developed out of the desire of the King to communicate as accurately and as widely as possible with the people of his realm and in the 11th and 12th centuries the only way of doing this was by word of mouth, so the burgesses were summoned from all the shires and counties of the realm to go and hear the King, to hear the conduct of business and then to carry back by word of mouth an exact description of what had happened there.

When the press came into the Assembly, it was not to duplicate the role of the commoners, of the Members of Parliament, it was to supplement it, and it was judged by the people of that time, both the parliamentarians, the press and the public at large, that the absolute independence of the press from the judgment or censure of the Assembly, was vitally important to the survival of democracy.

I think that while the intentions of the hon. member opposite were undoubtedly of the best, the amendment as put to the House failed to understand some of the history of this situation and some of the absolute necessity of the preservation of the independence of the media from the members of the Legislative Assembly. I have every respect for the members of the press.

I have been misquoted and I have suffered at their hands in the past; I expect to be misquoted and suffer at their hands occasionally in the future, but I would not recognize their presence in this Legislative Assembly, taking the term recognition in the very strict construction that it has in parliamentary democracy. I would like also to speak briefly to the question of a Management Utilization Committee, which I think may also have been well intentioned but also strikes at a fundamental relationship in the Assembly, and that is that you, Mr.

Speaker, are the servant of this whole Assembly, of every member herein, that your job depends or, the absolute confidence which each and every member of the Assembly places in your ability to follow the directions of the Assembly to the mutual benefit of all of the members and as expeditiously and efficiently as possible.

There has not ever been, to my knowledge, in any Legislative Assembly of the British parliamentary tradition, a committee appointed by the Assembly to sit with the Speaker, to watch over the Speaker, in the performance of the duties which are handed to him by the Legislative Assembly, and I would not like to see at this point the creation of a committee to sit beside, to watch over or to supervise the performance of the duties of one of the servants of this House, because I think that it would inevitably call into confidence the judgment which we place in the servants of this Assembly.

And for this reason I would support the sub-amendment; I would oppose the amendment, and I would support the main motion. MR. SPEAKER: The House has before it, first of all an amendment, moved by the hon. member for Olds-Didsbury and seconded by the hon. member for Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 195

5-38 ALBERTA HANSARD March 8th 1972 Calgary Bow, that the motion which you have heard read, be amended by adding the following sections:

Section 10: Management and Utilization Committee under the chairmanship of the Speaker, with members of both sides of the House represented, be established to monitor and improve upon the operation of Hansard.

Section 11: Formal request be made to the press gallery for submission to the Legislature of a code of conduct, upon approval by Mr. Speaker, the press shall be deemed to be recognized by this Assembly. Now that amendment is subject to a sub-amendment, moved by the hon. member for Wataskiwin-Leduc, and seconded by the hon. member for Little Bow, moved that

Section 11 of the amendment be struck out, so now we have before us the sub-amendment which asks that

section 11 of the amendment be struck out. Would all those in favour of the sub- amendment say 'aye', and all those opposed say 'no'. I declare the sub-amendment to be carried. We have before us the amendment as amended, and it now reads, only as to

Section 10: "that a Management and Utilization Committee under the chairmanship of the Speaker with members of both sides of the House represented be established to monitor and improve upon the operation of Hansard." MR. SPEAKER: Is there any discussion on the amendment as amended? Would all those in favour of the amendment as amended please say aye. and all those opposed, please say no. I declare the noes to have it. Now, is there any further discussion on the resolution itself? MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that the logic of the hon.

Member for Calgary North Hill is the strongest endorsation of why we ought to have a verbatim report of everything that is said and done here, of any I have heard to date. I'm going to ask the hon. minister who proposed the granting of copies of Hansard to the hon. members, to include a bound copy for each hon. member so that he could have it all together. He might lose copies so that if my hon. colleague should go around making statements about me which I think are not true, I would like to go behind him and make statements about him which are true. That would make us even.

I meant the annual bound report of Hansard, I beg your pardon. I think each hon. member ought to have one. The hon. Minister of Education stressed the fact that it was known that Alberta was one of the provinces in which there was no recording of speeches. I think the impression was created that perhaps we have not had any kind of record. He has taken the official Hansard. Technically that may be ture, but in fact, I would like to read a resolution which was proposed by the hon. member, Mr. Charlie Johnston, who passed away on the first of December. All hon. members will know him.

He was an outstanding debater, Member of Parliament for many years, and certainly a champion of the people. Here is the motion he proposed, moved by Mr. C. Johnston and seconded by myself, and passed on March 12, 1964. It says: "Whereas the installation of a sound reinforcement system in this Legislative Assembly provides a convenient means of obtaining a taped record of proceedings of the House at minimum expense. Therefore,

be it resolved that this Legislative Assembly requests the government to give favourable consideration to the Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 196

March 8th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 5-39 installation of sound recording equipment in order that a record of proceedings may be obtained on tape at all future sessions of the Legislature. Be it also resolved that such tape recordings be kept in the care of the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly, from which he shall produce a verbatim report of the speeches made by each member of the House during the Throne Speech and Budget Debates, and on such other occasions as the House may direct, and on request of a member the speeches or statements made at other times during the preceedings." So that, Mr.

Speaker, at the will of any member, whatever he said or anyone said, was available. I remember when this debate was indulged in, that the cost factor was vital -- it was considered. The last relevant part of the motion was: "Be it still further resolved that a scale of fees for transcribing be drawn up to determine the charges for all copies over and above the first copy supplied free of charge to members of the House." Debate followed and the motion was put by Mr. Speaker.

To show you how open the government was in those days, everybody voted for the motion, including the hon. member who moved this resolution before the House, no