Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 57 (27th Legislature, 5th Session)

27-5-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 28, 1966 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. 1321 HON. STERLING R. LYON Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities on Natural Resources beg leave to present the following as their second report.

Your Committee has examined the An nual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1965 as published. Your committee received all information desired by any member of the committee from the oificials of the Manitoba Telephone System and their staff with respect to matters pertaining to the records and business of the Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest oppor tunity was accorded to all members of the committee to seek any information desired. Your committee has considered Bills No. 8

an Act to Amend the Gas Pipeline; Act No. 44,

an Act to Amend the Manitoba Telephone Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Welfare, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motions. Introduction of Bills. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 83,

an Act to Amend the Liquor Control Act. HON. MAlT LAND B. STEINKOPF, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 84,

an Act to Amend the Consumer Credit Act; and B111 No. 85,

an Act to Amend the Se curities Act. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No. 89,

an Act to Amend the Credit Unions Act. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation. MH. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that leave be given to introduce Bill No. 91,

an Act to Amend the Department of Agriculture airl Conservation Act. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin) introduced Bill Nq, 87,

an Act to Validate Certain By-Laws. of the Town of Dauphin and the Rural Municipality of Dauphin and to enlarge the Bound aries of the Town of Dauphin. MR. SAUL CHERNI ACK, Q, C. (St. John'

s) introduced Bill No. 88,

an Act to Amend the Employment Standards Act. MH. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT : (Seven Oaks) introduced Bill No. 90,

an Act Re specting the Rural Municipality of Old Kildonan and the City of West Kildonan. MADAM SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House. The Honourable the Minister of Labour. MB. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, on a point of Order, I think that the written motion that I submitted to you was incomplete in that the words "and that the same be now received and read a first time" were not on it. This should be corrected. MADAM SPEAKER: Does this motion- did I neglect to give it? HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): I think, Madam, the motion as written was incomplete - it was incomplete therefore as the Minister read it, and was incomplete in the copy that came to you and possibly it would be the right thing to ask unanimous consent to correct the motion. MADAM SPEAKER: Could we have consent of the House for the Clerk to correct the motion? Agreed. Committee of the Whole House. The Honourable the Minister of Labour. HON. ROBERT G.

SMELLIE, Q, C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell): Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable the Minister of Labour, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Secretary, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Cha1r and

1322 March 28, 1966 (MR. SMELLIE cont'd) .... the House resolve itself in a Committee of tbe Whole to consider the following proposed resolutions standing in the name of the Minister of Labour. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. SMELLIE: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed oi the subject matter of the proposed resolutions recommends them to the House. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The first resolution before the Committee is; Resolved that it is expe dient to bring in a measure to amend the Workmen's Compensation Act by providing among other matters for the extension of the classes of people who may receive compensation under the Act or incr easing certain benefits payable by way of compensation under the Act and for altering the method of computing certain types of compensation payable under the Act; all of which may increase the amount of compensation payable under the Act in respect of injuries to or death of workmen. MR. SMELLIE: Mr.

Chairman, the two major changes proposed in this Bill are firstly, an increase of $25 a month as provided to bring compensation up to $100 a month for all depen dent widows and those in a similar category covered by the Workmen's Compensation Act; secondly, at the present time recurring disabilities are compensated for on the basis of earn ings at the time of the original injury. Provision in this Bill is made for payment for compensat ion where there is a recurrence of the disability on the basis of the average earnings of the workman at the time of the recurrence of the disability.

There are also some other minor particulars in the Bill; an inclusion of a new definition of the word "child" which would include more people than are at present covered and coverage of employees who are injured outside Manitoba while working in connection with the operation of a vehicle engaged in interprovincial trucking or a bus line operation, where reciprocal arrange ments are made among compensation boards covering these operations. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): .. .. Honourable Minister advise the Committee on what basis the average is computed.

Is it the average between the date of the original injury and the recurrence or is it determined on a lesser period or another period? MR. SMELLIE: I believe it's an average over a period of time prior to the recurrence. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, are there any amendments in the proposed legislation to deal with or change the regulations in respect to farmers?

I under stand that presently a farmer can make application to contribute and therefore receive benefits from the Workmen's Compensation Act; but I understand, too, that very few farmers know this to be a fact and it would seem to me that this being the spring of the year it might be a good time to advertise the fact - if it is in fact a fact - that the farmers can contribute and receive benefits under the Act similar to all industrial workers. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, it mentions here that there is going to be an extension of the classes of people who may receive compensation.

Is it limited to the ones you mentioned, or are there others provided for? MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, so far as I am aware there are no other changes contem plated than the ones that were suggested here. The legislation at the present time is permissive insofar as a farming operation is concerned and it will continue to be available to those farmers who want it, but there is no change proposed in the legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: .... . Passed. Second resolution.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting Annual Vacations with Pay for Employees and providing among other matters that the Government pay each of its employees that come within the application of the Act for two weeks of vacation after 12 months continuous service and upon termination of employment an allowance in lieu of partially earned vacations. The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. SMELLIE: Mr.

Chairman, this Bill will provide for vacation pay on a pro-rata basis of four percent of earnings from employees who have less than one year's continuous service with an employer; and secondly, the present rather complicated system where an employer was required to make vacation payments to a trust fund from which the department made payments to the employees, is going to be varied to make a simpler procedure where by the payments will be made directly from the employer to the employee. There's some other provisions of the Bill, but it is mainly a consolidation of the present Act as amended from time to time. 1 i

March 28, 1966 1323 MR. CHERNIACK: May I ask, Mr. Chairman, is this an amendment to the Vacations with Pay Act or is it to do with the Civil Service Act? MR. SMELLIE: Vacations with Pay Act. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, I hope the Minister will stop me as quickly as I make a wrong statement. I am under the impression that the proposed changes apply only to civil servants, to employees of government. MR. SMELLIE: At the present time under Federal Legislation, or in the past under Federal Legislation, there were only railway companies and express companies that were provided for.

The new Act provides for a different treatment of these Federal Civil Servants, under the Federal Legislation, and it's now made clear in this Act that this Act, The Manitoba Act, excludes all undertakings that come within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada.. These are covered by the Federal Labour Code. There is also a specific exclusion in this Act for domestic servants in private homes. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, again, Mr.

Chairman, I know- especially when there's pro vision excluding domestic servants - I now assume that the provision for two weeks vacation after twelve months and an allowance of four percent in employment of less than a year and over a month applies to all employees in the Province of Manitoba regardless of who their employer is other than the Federal departments mentioned by the Honourable Minister. In other words, an employee of a department store, would this change be applicable to that em ployee? MR. SMELLIE: I believe so. MR. CHERNIACK: Well then, Mr.

Chairman, I would assume that this is a tremendous advance in the thinking of the government because certainly there have been a great many people affected by the fact that their employment did not last for a period in excess of eleven months and therefore they were not entitled to any recognition of their employment for vacation pay purposes.

Now if I interpret the remarks made by the Honourable Minister correctly, then it appears to me that every person employed in private enterprise or in any other form of em ployment other than the exclusions, is going to receive on termination of his employment, an allowance of four percent of his earnings for that period of time; therefore if a person has worked five months or if he has worked seventeen months or for whatever period of time he has worked for that portion which is less than a year he will become entitled to four percent.

Now I don't read the resolution that way I I read the resolution as if it applies only in the case· of employees of the government; and taking the Minister's

interpretation or his answers as being a different reading than the one I gave it, I can only welcome the legislation and compli ment the government in seeing the need for this type of legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed. Committee Rise. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted certain resolutions and request leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre}: Madam Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina that the report of the Committee be received, MADAM .SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SMELLIE introduced Bill No. 81 ,

an Act to Amend the Workmen's Compensation Act. MR. SMELLIE introduced Bill No. 79,

an Act Respecting Annual Vacations with Pay for Employees. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, before proceeding with the Orders of the Day, may I lay on the Table of the House Return to an Order of the House No. 16, dated February 28th, 1966 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie; and Return to an Order of the House No. 25 , dated March 9, 1966, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR.

LYON: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the Table of the House Return to an Order of the House No. 35 , dated 14 of March, 1966, on the motion of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MRS. CAROLY NE MORRISON (Pembina): Before the Orders of the Day, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to announce a Dominion Championship for Manitoba and for the Constituency of Pembina. For the second time in three years the Howie Sager rink of Mocder has won the Elks of Canada Curling Championship played this year in Grand Prairie, Alberta. This competition was completed on Saturday.

Personnel of the rink included three brothers, Howard, Gordon

1324 March 28, 1966 (MRS. MORRISON cont'd) .. .. and Don Sager with Doug Edmonson also of Morden as second in the rink. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MR. HILLHOUSE:. Madam, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and Conservation.

Would the Honourable Minister, as a help to the morale of those people in the Greater Winnipeg area who are not protected by the diking system against the im pending flooding of the Red River, give on behalf of the Government of Manitoba his assurance that the government will, as a crash program, undertake the completion of the Greater Winnipeg Floodwaythis year? (Interjection). MR. HILLHOUSE: . . . . . an answer, Madam? MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, I'm floored, considering where the request came from. MR. HILLHOUSE: Madam, I would like an answer from the Minister, not sarcasm. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (P remier) (Wolseley): The question to which my honourable friend refers is receiving attention. We expect to make an announcement about it in due course. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture. If a farmer, a young farmer, who has already made a loan from the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Act, or under the Act, now wishes to proceed to make a further loan and he is no longer a young farmer under the Act, what interest rate does he pay, and on what portion?

MR. HUTTON: He would pay the current rate of interest. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, is it a new contract covering both loans? You don't allow the two separate loans then? MR. HUTTON: There are several combinations. If he were a young farmer and he came for a supplementary loan, he would get all of the money under current interest rates. That is, he would get the same benefits on his total monies as another young farmer coming for the first time.

If he had had money under the original - or if he had applied as a young farmer for his initial loan and he came back and he was no longer classed as an initial farmer, if he wanted to get a supplementary loan, all the monies would be put under one loan agreement and he would pay the interest rate applying to persons such as himself at this time. MR. WRIGHT: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Health.

Last week I asked if he was expecting to table the recommendations of the Hospital Commission in regard to ambulance service and he told us it was in the hands of the printer. May we expect it this week? HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, the last communication I have had from the Hospital Commission say that it will be up on Wednesday or Thursday. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Madame la Presidente, encore cette annes, j'aimerais vous rappeler ainsi qu'aux Deputes de cette Chambre, et les Journalists, que la Societe St. Jean Baptiste de St.

Boniface tiendra sa soiree annuelle, soiree dite de Soupe Aux Poids au ... ..••..•• • du College St. Boniface, 190 Avenue Cathedrale, Mercredi, le 30 Mars a. 8: 3o. TRANSLATION: Madam Speaker, again this year I would like to remind you along with the Deputies of this House and journalists that the Society of St. Jean Baptiste of St. Boniface are holding its annual Pea Soup Night at .. .. . .... of St. Boniface College, 190 Cathedrale Avenue, Wednesday - March 30th at 8:30. MADAM SPEAKER: Pea Soup Night, this Wednesday, 8:30.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, may we have the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill .. . (Interjection) ·MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, as we have now reached government business, I wonder if the House would allow me to proceed with the two Bills standing in my name with respect to Supply- Interim and Supplementary.

I propose to move second reading, and if agreeable, to proceed by leave to the Committee of the Whole House, and then give these Bills third reading and dispose of them in view of the running on toward the end of the month. MR. ROBLIN presented Bill No. 69,

an Act for granting to Her Majesty certain further I I

March 28, 1966 1325' (MR. ROBLIN cont'd) •.. sums of money for the public service of the Province, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1966, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR .. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I just have a few brief comments on the Bill before us and it has to do with the Hospital Commission report for which we are making further alloca- tions in the Bill. I notice from the Bill before us that we are allocating another $1, 159, 000, and apparently this was to cover the 1965 deficit.

However the deficit as shown in the Hospital Commission report as of the year ending 1965, December 31st, showed a deficit of $1, 138, 043. 00. There's a. difference here of $20, 957.00. The report that we received from the Department of Health of the Manitoba Hospital Com mission shows this amount, the deficit as written off or applied against the 1964 surplus account, which was $1, 591, 239.

Now, we deduct the 165 deficit; this left an accumulated deficit of $453 -- when we deduct the deficit as contained in the statement of 1965 from the one million and a half, this left $453, 196. 00 and then this is shown as -- No it is applied against the accu mulated deficit here of $5, 893, 383. 00. So the report shows a net cumulative deficit as at December 31, 1965 of $5, 440, 187. 19.

N ow I want the question answered, and that is this: does this mean we allot $20, 957 more in the bill than the deficit that we had for 1965, or does this mean that we now have a $1, 159, 000 greater deficit than as shown in this report for the three months that we will be ending as of March 31st? Then when we dealt with the estimates of the Health Department , the Honourable the Minis ter of Health said that this was just a bookkeeping entry - and he was referring to the accumulated deficit of $5 million; but it seems to me now that this isn't just a book entry.

We now have to vote an additional amount of monies for this purpose, so it's not just a bookkeeping entry. -I would suggest that the Honourable the First Minister who is also the Treasurer of the Province who expects to come out with a big surplus as of March 31, 1965, that he allocate additional monies toward this deficit and let's cover it. Why keep it on the books? Because the argument that the Minister of Health produced at that time certainly doesn't hold water when he says that it was just a book entry and now we find a bill here allocating additional monies to be applied against a deficit.

So let's bring forth, or have a bill that will wipe out the deficit completely. I think this would show more sense and this is what should be done. MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone that the debate be adjourned. I might give a word of explanation if you wish, Madam Speaker. It's not- certainly do not intend to delay ••.•• (Interjection) MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MFl. ROBLIN presented Bill No. 70,

an Act for granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year ending the 31st day of March, 1967. MADAM SPEAKER presented the mocion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MH. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, this is the Interim Supply Bill on which there are certain deadlines that we have to meet and I hope that the House would be disposed to give this third reading today. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

ROBLIN: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources that by leave Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committ•ee of the Whole to consider Bill No. 70. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House, with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE Billl No. 70, was read

section by

section and passed. MR. CHAmMAN: Committee Rise. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted Bill No. 70 without amendment and ask leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. COW AN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

1326 March 28, 1966 Bill No. 70 was read by leave, a third time and passed. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, could we now return to the regular order of business, starting with the adjourned debates on the second readings ••.. ? MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 37. The Honourable the Member for Selkirk. MR. HILLHOUSE: Madam, with the leave of the House I'd like to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 71. The Honourable the Member for Emerson. MR.

STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, in his absence may we have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand? MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed, Resolution ..•. MR. HILLHOUSE: Whoa! -excuse my horsy expression! Mr. Chairman, there's one matter that I'd like to submit to the Minister concerning his department, and that is a situation which in my opinion is rather ridiculous. I refer to the case of an individual who marries a widow, say with two children; both of these children under the age of 16 years. Now under the law that individual is responsible for the support and maintenance of his wife's children regard less of whether or no he adopts these children or not - provided of course the children are legitimate.

Now if that individual wishes to adopt these children he must go through the proce dure in The Child Welfare Act and he must pay a fee of $25. 00 for each child to the Direc tor of Welfare. Mr. Chairman, I think that this is an imposition. Here is an individual who assumed through marriage the responsibility of looking after these children. There's no investigation made by the government or any department of the government as to that man's fitness or suitability for marriage.

There is no investigation made as to whether he's a fit or proper person to assume the relationship towards these children that his marriage brings about. Yet if he wants to give these children his name and make these chil dren entitled to share in his estate, there is a fee of $25.00 imposed by the Government of Manitoba on the adoption of each child that he adopts. Now I think that is a ridiculous situation and I think the sooner it is changed the better.

Now I don't know what investigation the Welfare Department makes in respect of his application for adoption, or whether they make any invest igation at all, but my point is that it seems to me to be absurd if the fee is charged for an in vestigation when there's no investigation made of that man when he married the woman. Another point that I'd like to raise and that is this: We hear a great deal these days about desertions. Now desertions are increasing in number and something has got to be done to bring home to deserting spouses their responsibility.

I don't know how it's going to be achieved but I do believe it'll have to be achieved by strengthening the provisions of the Wives and Children's Maintenance Act in that respect. We have a situation now where a man can get a separation from - a man can desert his wife, say, and the only penalty that can be imposed upon him by a Police Magistrate under the Child Welfare Act is -I think it is a maximum of 40 days; that's the maximum sentence that can be imposed. I would suggest to the Minister that that sentence be increased, the maximum be increased to six months.

I would also suggest too to the Minister that representations be made to the Government of Canada to change the definition of destitute and necessitous circumstances as they appear in the Criminal Code, because under our law today if we want to bring a man back say from one province to Manitoba, who deserts his wife, the only way we can bring that individual back is by laying a charge against that in dividual under the Criminal Code of Canada.

Now it may be that that woman is not within the meaning of the Criminal Code of Canada in destitute or neces sitous circumstances, because she may be kept by a municipality or by friends; and what I suggest to the Minister is this, that representations be made to the Government of Canada to include in the definition of destitute and necessitous circumstances any man who has deserted his wife without adequately providing for her, or any man against whom his wife has an order L I I

March 28, 1966 1327 (MR. HILLHOUSE cont'd) ... of separation under the Wives and Children's Maintenance Act and that individual is in default under that order. I think if we did that and we had the Govern ment of Canada go along with us in that request that we would strengthen the position of a deserted wife particularly in respect of a remedy. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed, Resolution No. 112 passed. Resolution No. 113 (

a) passed, (

b) passed, (

c) passed, (

d) passed (

e) passed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, we are on 11 3, are we? Yes. I wrote my honour able friend here not too long ago in respect to Welfare funerals and funerals paid for under Medicare, and I am still not clear as to the limitations, and it seems to me that several ofthe funeral homes in the province are confused. I understand that Welfare funerals, that is paid for by the municipality - $100 to $1 25;

whereas under Medicare they can go up to $225. I wonder if my honourable friend could explain the circumstances and the differential? HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): Mr.

Chairman, I am in the unfortunate position at the moment of having given away all of my. regulations to my friend last Friday, but as I understand it we do have a maximum fee that we do pay for funerllls, which is $125, I believe, but in addition to that is the cost of the cemetery plot and opening and closing the plot I believe, which can run then somewhat over, the maximum figure which is allowable for the actual costs of the embalming and the services of the funeral director himself. MR. SHOEMAKER: But not to exceed $225 .0 0. Is that it? What is the maximum payable. under a Medicare card? MR.

CARROLL: I wonder if my honourable friend has the regulations there? I believe that it is very specific in the regulations. I think the maximum is $1 25 . plus the cost of actual interment. MR. SHOEMAKER: I shall check with that then. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been able to address myself to the Estimates of this committee, or of this Department and I just would like to make a few comments. I was very interested in what the Honourable the Member for Selkirk just had to say.

I think this is a very important matter and I had hoped that the Minister would comment on what he had to say because there's definitely a need in that area and problems of a similar nature have been directed to me with which I have gone to the department to see whether something can be done about it. I also would like to take the opportunity of congratulating the department on the report that they did put out this year. I think the matter of naming the different Acts on Page 12 is really worthwhile and sets out the nature of the different acts.

I only hope that the Minister would also see fit to provide us with the combined regulations of the various acts, compiled and combined into a pamphlet. I think this would be really appreciated so that we would not have to go and look for the various regulations under different Acts. This, I find is very difficult and if we could have this made available to us in such a form, it would be of great benefit and I'm sure would be appreciated by all members. I do have other things on my mind which I would like to comment on.

I think they come up under different items since we've now left the Minister's salary, so I will not burden the committee at this time. MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, muni cipal aid expenditures are quite high, and I just wanted to ask the Minister what safeguard there is in regard to standards of relief as between municipalities? We bring this up every year but I haven't been able to find anything in the Annual Report.

It seems to me the department should set up some standard, some minimum standard of relief or welfare, because after all the province is contributing and picking up the larger portion of this and I think there may be times when they should withhold· their contribu tions where too low a standard is set up by a community. I'd like to hear the Minister say something about this equality of standards. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, on the question of standards with respect to short-term cases, by and large these are cases which may require assistance of varying kinds for, gene rally speaking, very short periods of time.

In some cases as a result of some catastrophe, possibly a houseburning down, the municipality may be required to make accommodation available or a family may be temporarily - there may be temporary sickness in the family requiring the provision of food but not the provision of clothing or other things which might be required on the basis of the long-term situation. So I think that each municipality must assess the situation on an individual basis. I do agree, however, that there should be some attempt at defining standards particularly with respect to food costs and items of that kind.

1328 March 28, 1966 (M R. CARROLL cont1d) ..... In fact the provisions of the new Canada Assistance Plan will require municipalities to establish these standards and to provide an appeal procedure for those who feel that they have been harshly dealt with by the municipality with respect to any application that may be made to them for assistance. So I think we are working towards standards.

I think that even where standards may exist there can be quite a disparity with respect to individual families because the situation which caused them to apply for assistance may be quite different; in some cases they may require the full range of assistance from accommodation through clothing to food and other household needs and personal needs. In other cases it may be just temporary sup port for various reasons requiring maybe only assistance in certain of the areas of need rather than in the full range. However, I think this problem will have solved itself possibly by a year from now.

We appreciate that there are varying standards at the present time and we are certainly interested in making sure that all people who apply for assistance and who have legi timate un-met needs are looked after in a proper way. I didn't mean to purposely overlook the comments that were made by the Member for Selkirk. I only comment on his suggestions by saying that we are placing a great deal more effort during the coming 12 months on services for deserted families.

We would hope that as a result of this greater effort we may be able to plug any loopholes that there may be in legis lation and be able to better assess the situation after the year's experience that we have with the new strengthened program. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, when we were dealing with the education estimates.

I raised the point that in Neepawa where they had just introduced a class for the retarded child ren that the Rural Municipality of Rosedale, as one municipality, were forced this year to include in their budget $1, 000 to pay for certain expenses in regard to these retarded children attending them. Now, inasmuch as the Rural Municipality of Rosedale are paying this $1,000, putting it into their budget, can they recover the 40% or the 80 % under the assistance to muni cipalities for this item? MR. CARROLL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would say so. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, what accounts for the reduction in this item -t here's a considerable reduction under (e). Are we under (e)? I think this is ... MR. CARROLL: Yes, during the last 12 months we have been extending our Social Allowances Act and some of the municipalities - at least during the coming 12 months, as we did in the past, we have been extending taking care of the unemployables during the last 12 months; this year taking care of the additional categories that are being proclaimed and will be proclaimed during the period of this estimate. MR. CHAillMAN: (

f) passed. (g) -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, are we going to be supplied with the various chari table institutions that will benefit from the million-odd in this item? MR. CARROLL: The main beneficiaries under this

section of course, are the various Children's Aid Societies of the province of which we have four: Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, Eastern Manitoba, Central Manitoba, and Western Manitoba. There are quite a few Senior Citizens Institutions of various kinds that get nominal grants. This enables them to qualify for certain exemptions under the federal taxing statutes.

We have grants to the Salvation Army, Bethania Home, Villa Rosa, United Church Homes for Girls, Age and Oppor tunity Bureau, the Community Welfare Planning Council, Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire, Canadian Welfare Council, The Indian-Eskimo Association, Greater Winnipeg Day Centre Boards, Les Soeurs des Misericorde, the Social Service Audit -- that's the ones that are included here -- I'm sorry Les Soeurs des Misericorde is not in this year, last year only a one-shot capital grant with respect to their new home. These are most of the grants that will be made under this particular heading. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, what's the basis for granting and determining the amount that they receive - and I suspect that my honourable friend has many delegations and many applications requesting contributions from out of this large amount, but how does he arrive, or what justification has he for turning down a great number that must come to him over the year? MR.

CARROLL: To begin with the majority of the grants - the bulk of this money is made as a result of a statutory obligation to provide for the children under the Child Welfare Act who are declared by the courts to be deserted children, and 1f they then come under the authority of one of the child caring agencies then we have a statutory obligation to not only pay I I I • •

March 28 , 1966 1329 (MR. CARROLL cont'd) .•. their ward maintenance costs but to pay for the cost of providing service to these children. This is where the bulk of these funds are paid out to the various child caring agencies. With respect to all of the other grants that are made, they're made on the basis of judge ment with respect to the services that are being provided with respect to the obligations that we may have and we exercise the best judgement we can with respect to the monies that are available fo.,. these grants. MR. SHOEMAKER: ...• next item, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIDMAN: (

f) passed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes under (g). Social Work Bursaries, yes. We were told that in 1960, or thereabouts, when the Social Allowances Act was introduced and one or two sections of it proclaimed that the government would proceed to announce and proclaim further sections of the Act as soon as they could obtain sufficient social workers and personnel. It is disturbing to see that this item is down by 25% - that is Social Work Bursaries -- and I don't know really what that entails --but I would suggest that my honourable friend is still short of social workers.

He must have taken on a whole new army of social workers since 1960 and if there is still a shortage of social workers, what measures is his government taking to assure that the supply in future will meet the demand? MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, I think these figures here are a little misleading. We have also another item for Social Work Bursaries under (

f) item - Grants to Charitable Institutions. In fact, we are increasing our bursary grant monies rather substan tially this year. Part of it is included under the heading, Grants to Charitable Institutions, and part of it under this next item. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether I should raise it under this point or under Social Allowances, but what is the situation with our social workers?

Are they being rotated from one area to another area at different times or . . • How come we have such a big turnover because so often when I go to the Department and ask for a certain social worker for a certain area, I find so often it's a new person for that region or for that area. Is it because of a shortage or why does this happen? . Also, how many male social workers do we have and how many female, because it seems to me that most of them that I have met are female workers in this area? Are they more efficient or are the male workers just not available? MR. CARROLL: I think, Mr.

Chairman, that we have no policy in the Department of rotating social workers around the country for experience. I think generally speaking we like to encourage our social work staff to stay in one area as long as possible. Unfortunately, there is a very high percentage of female social workers, possibly because this has certain appeal to young ladies and maybe not quite so much appeal to the men, although I think this is really a man's job, and I would like to see a great many more men in the profession than what we have.

Unfortunately, many of the young ladies get married, with the result we have a very substantial turnover there. I think too that- we have an expanding staff, there are certain people who do leave. There are promotions from time to time and some of them take advantage of these pro motions and move out for that reason. I think the greatest turnover though is likely as a result of young social workers getting married. They leave the profession for a while.

Fortunately, many of them after a few years experience as homemakers do ultimately come back into the profession, and bring an added degree of maturity to the profession which I think is very valuable. --(Interjection) -- Pardon. MR. FROESE: We have no shortage at the present time. MR. CARROLL: Yes we do have a shortage at the present time. A shortage that we are most anxious to be able to eliminate if we can. MR. CHAmMAN: (

g) passed. MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Minister how much of the $15, 000 allocated last year was spent? And while I'm on my feet, I don't know if I missed it in the Annual Report but surely this is a place for this item in the Annual Report - Social Work Bursaries - Surely this would be the place to let everybody know what we're spending on social workers. MR. CARROLL: I can't tell my friend exactly how much was spent last year, but I'm quite sure we were overspent. At least we spent every cent we had available for bursaries as I under stand it. I think it is a good idea that we should include this in our Annual Report and we'll note that suggestion. MR. CHAIDMAN: (

g) passed, (

h) passed, Resolution 113 passed. Resolution No. 114 (

a) passed.

1330 March 28 , 1966 MR. SHOEM AKER: Mr. Chairman, I am always disturbed under this reso lution because it seems that it's just as difficult as it ever was to have a person qualify for a Total Disabili ty Pension. It's quite easy, quite easy to qualify for Old Age Assista nce at 65, but next to impos sible to qualify for a Total Disabi lity Pension. I have often said that it appeared that you had to have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel to qualify and I thought that over the years they would improve this situati on a litt le.

This fact is pointed up, I th ink, but the Annual Report that is before us, where on page 15 of the report, under Social Al lowances to Unemploy able Persons, my honourable friend shows that there are now, as of March, 1965, approximately 1, 000 in the province that are being assisted by reason of the fact that they are unemployable. Now it would seem to me that it would only be reasonable to assume that many persons in this 1, 000 category of unemployables here could very well be taken care of under the Total Disability Act.

Well it says here under Social Al lowances to Unemployables that the reason they are get ti ng assistance is because of long-term physical or ment al handic aps. Well there are plenty of them. For inst ance, the other day, Mr. Chairma n, I cited two cases of multiple sclerosis in the province that didn't qualify for total disability . Well my gosh, what do you have to do to qualify for a Total Disabili ty Pension? Apparently under the Act, so long as you can drag a chair up to the tabl e and sit down and feed with one hand, you are not tot ally disabl ed.

But how in the world do you get the food to put on the tabl e to eat? So it would seem to me that it would be to the advantage of the taxpayers of this province to have a great majority of these 1, 000 persons who are termed "unemployables" by virtue of the fact that they are physically or mentally disa bled, transfer them over to total disability cases. MR. CARRO LL: Mr.

Chairm an, the answers I gave the other night, to this is the Federal Government make the rules about how disabled a person has to be in order to qualify for that particular pension, and unfortunately a great many people who are unemployable don't qualify for disabili ty allowance because they don't meet the standard of unemployability that is required to become eligib le for a disability allowance. So it 's strict ly a question of definit ion. The Federal Government have chosen a very rigid one, an inflexible one. We can' t change that.

However, we have set up another category that takes all of those people who are in fact unem ployable but don't meet these standards because they are just as much in need, and we are look ing after those people under our Social Allowances Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed, (

c) passed, (d) -- MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, under (c), I also note a reduction here under (

c) and could we hear an explanation on this . Are we going to reduce the Old Age Assistance or how do you account for the reduction ? MR. CARROLL: Well, as of January the 1st this year, the Old Age Security Act which we call Old Age Pension, becomes eligib le to those people who are 69 years of age, and this then takes a lot of people out of the category of Old Age Assist ance in the 69th year of their life, so that we do have a reduction in that fi gure because we are eliminating a lot of people who have qualified under this

section of the Act and put them into the Federal Old Age Pension scheme. MR. CHAIRMAN:(

c) passed, (

d) passed, (

e) passed, Resolution No. 114 passed. Reso lution No. 115 (

a) passed (

b) passed (c) -- MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairm an, I wonder if the Honourable Minist er can tell us some think more about Fitness and Amateur Sport programs because the report itself is very brief. In here it says Aid to Municipalit ies and Full-Time Directors, there is only about nine or ten mentioned, or shown in the report. This looks like we are making very slow progress.

I know the Department is doing -- amateur physical recreation, amateur sport is doing a real good job to the people that I've ta lked to in the Province of Manitob a, but if there is only so few full ti me Recreati on Directors in the province, it looks as if we are moving at a very slow pace. I would also like to know what recreational services are we providing for our Indian people in Manitob a and for the handicapped ? It appears those two areas are very important, and in the report itself there is no indic ation that we are participa ting in those two areas at all.

It doesn't appear to me, at least, that we have increased very much the budget for recreati on purposes in Manitob a. I think that we're moving much too slow. I wonder how much are we spending for leadership traini ng? In this fitness and amateur sport department, the people that I have ta lked to many ti mes are doing a good job but I know that there is a shortage of staff and this is one area that I think that we should provide much more leadership training. I .. .. .. I I

March 28 , 1966 1331 MR. CARROLL : Mr. Chairman, I'll be very brief in my answers on these points. I think to begin with, most of the money that we spend in this department is devoted to leadership training .

I think we have recognized this as one of our prime responsibilities - to not go out and try to run recreation programs but to try to provide people with the tools to run their own recreation program, and part of this of course, is to encourage leaders throughout the province, to try to help local communities to develop their leadership skills within the community, to give them some encouragement to hire professional recreation leaders, or to hire part-time recrea tion leaders or whatever, to try to beef up their program; to try to run clinics within the commu nity and things of that kind.

We•ve run dozens of clinic s and workships around the province, and conferences and things of that kind, all helping local people to develop a well-rounded recreation program within the community itse lf. We have no special program for Indians in the province. I am very happy that some of our Indian communities have taken advantage of the services of our department. The Pas band of Indians hired a part- time recreation leader a year ago for a summer recreation program. We were very happy to be able to help in paying part of the cost of that leader.

They worked out an integrated program with the white community across the river and I think it was a very successful one. We have no special program for the handic apped, but our staff is available to assist in clinic s or in whatever way we can with any handicapped group that may be interested in availing themselves of our service. If my friend has any suggestions on that point I would be very happy to make note of them and try to do what we can about it. Our grants for full-time leaders has not been changed. There have been some suggestions made along these lines.

Instead we are going this year to a beefed:...up summer program in which we hope to underwrite the services of summertime recreation directors. We think that this will ultimately prove of value to the communities and may encourage some of them to hire ·full-time recreation leaders. Recreation is becoming much more important in people's lives and certain ly we've recognized this in the notice that we have given about the formation of a new department of Tourism and Recre ation.

This all indic ates more interest on the part of the Provincial Government and possibly more help along the lines that have been suggested by the Member for Assiniboia. MR.

PATRICK: ... if the Honourable Minister can tell us how we compare with some of the other provinces in Canada, because if I'm not mistaken I beli eve we in Manitoba were pro bably almost at the bottom of the totem pole as far as physical fitness and recreation was con cerned and when you see provinces like Ontario who have set up even this year, last year, committees of the House to study this problem and I thought that they had pretty good recreation facilities and good programs, so there is a move right across Canada to improve the require ments and leadership training and facilities itself for this purpose, and Manitoba being pretty low on the score I think we should be doing much more than we are at the present time.

MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr. Cha irman, I wanted to get from the Minister - perhaps this has already been put on the record, but I would just like to check if it hasn't been. The amount that was spent in this fiscal year that we're in now, that's just about closing; and I would like to get the Honourable the Minister to interpret for me what the Public Accounts say with regard to this item for the fiscal year that is past. As I read the Public Account it says that Fitness and Amateur Sport had $108, 21 6-odd spent.

Is that the total and is the Federal Government assista nce deductible from that, or is that after the Federal Government's contribution had been made and deducted? And then I would like comparable figures so far as the Minister has them for the year that we 're in now. MR. CARROLL: I'm afraid I don't have that information right with me at the moment, Mr. Chairman . I would be very happy to get the information for the member. MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPB EL L (Lakeside): I would be right, I gather Mr.

Chairman, in interpreting the present estimates to say that the total that is expected to be spent this year is $223, 000 - odd dollars. Is that correct ? That that is the total which would in turn indic ate that the Federal Government is making a contribution of $58, 000- odd - would that be correct? It seems to me that last year they made a contribution of 70 -I don't mean the year that we're in now, but last year they made a contribution of $72, 000.00.

Are they cutting down their assistance to this program? ' I'm not as well informed on this subj ect as my honourable friend the Member for Assini boia , but I have been trying through the years to keep some track of what the expenditures are in total amount and what the programs are that are estab lished under those amounts. As I read

1332 March 28, 1966 (MR. CAMPBE LL cont'd) .. . the Public Accounts that are before us now, practic ally a year old at this time, it seems to me that the total of salaries is $31, 000- aid, the total of Supplies, Expenses, etcetra are $62, 000 -odd; then I'm not sure of the next two figures whether the grant shown in (

c) in that item in the Public Accounts is another $85 ,000 -I gather that it is - and the Recoveries from Canada are $72, 000-od d. Would the Minister check those and see if that is correct and then give the similar figur es or corresponding figures for the year that we're just about completing now; and then how the program for the year that we're to begin in another week or ten days would correspond to that. MR. CARROLL: .. ... to be of some help to the Member for Lakeside. Th e recovery item that we had for last year under this program was $64, 000.00. This year we list it at $58,000.00 .

The actual amount of the grant from Ottawa is the same except that the bursaries that are provided to students who are taking training at universit ies either in recreation or physical fitness, the bursari es are deducted from the allocation made· to the Province of Manitoba. In other words, if we have students attending university getting some $7, 000 worth of bursar ies then that is deducted from the amount of the grant that we would normally be get ting from Ottawa and these cheques are sent directly from Ottawa to the bursary students.

This is a way by which the Federal Government hope I guess to get greater recognition for the monies which they provide in the Fitness and Amateur Sports field and I think this accounts for what looks like a reduced grant to the Government of Manitoba. MR. C HAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed. MR. CAMPBELL: I gather, Mr. Chairma n, that I have the undertaking of the Minister that he will furnish some complete figures ? MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chai rman, I would like to ask another question of the honourable minis ter. I wonder if it would be possible in this department, particularly Fi tness and Amateur Sport, to assist the development of some amateur teams that participate in international sports, be it hockey or basketball.

I think thi s would be a good place to start and I feel that we should review this -- I don't say just the provincial government by itself but also the federal government- to participate in such programs. I think this is the direction we should be looking to. I think this would be a real good idea. MR. CARROLL: I think, Mr. Ch airman, that our posit ion has always been that we're interested in expanding and extending recreation programs of various kinds to the ci tizens of Manitoba.

I know that there is a great deal of incentive to recreation in our province if we do have teams of championship calibre that do ultimately go abroad and distinguish themselves, but we have always felt that this was really an area in which we couldn't go with our limited recreation funds. I think in some cases the Government of Canada have seen fit to assist, but we have not been able to do that up to this point. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, I think it would be worthwhile looking at because if we look at our national hockey team, I think they were certainly a credit to Camda , not only to Manitoba, because they certai nly have conducted themselves like -- even though they did not win the championship, they were a real true championship team because the way they conducted themselves and played to some 30 million people on TV and I understand every day they had personal contact and I'm sure they're one of the better goodwill ambassador teams that we've had sent overseas and as far as the records were concerned I don't think this was just a short range program, I think we're building for the olympic year.

I think that they have done extreme ly well to finish where they did, particularly in one game they were awfully close, the one that would have put them in probably second spot, so I'd say they have done extreme ly well and I think it's a good area to think that we may assist - I'm not saying professional, this is strictly amateur teams.

They're all young players and I know that many of them have sacrificed an awful lot, given up contracts in the neighborhood of some $30, 000 from some professional teams, and as far as the government I think it would be a small contribution towards development of an amateur team for international competition. I think it would be a good cause. MR. CAMPB EL L: Mr. Chairman, if this answer has already been given, the Minister could just refer me to that fact, but I was interested in the item $19, 000, Other Recoveries under (d). Has that been explained? MR. CARROLL: Mr .

Chairm an, these are recoveries that we receive through the opera tion of our provincial leadership training centre at Gimli. This is the old school out there that was run for some time by the Department of Education, before that by the OBU I think original ly established the centre out there. We've been making excellent use of these facilities at Gimli for not only the training of I •

March 28, 1966 1333 (MR. CARROLL cont'd) .•. young leaders in Manitob a, both boys and girls and other recreation leaders, but we have been using the facility or allowing various national, or at least provincial bodies to use the facilities out there for their various leadership training programs and things of that kind. Last year we had a playground leaders course, camp counsellors' training, the YMCA used the facility for a workship associa ted with their activitie s in the recreation field.

There was an adult recreation leaders training course; there was a folk dance workship conduct ed out there; a youth leader training course from July 4 to August 1; 4H leaders' camp; Univer sity of Manitoba had some human relations workshops out there. The way in which we charged for the use of the facilities - those that have recreation aspects to them, outside bodies, we allow them to go in on a subsidized rate. For those causes that don't have recreation aspects to them, we do charge the full cost of the running of the camp during the period of time in which they use them.

However, I think that the bulk of the use to which the camp is put is taken up directly by the recreation activities of the department itself. However, the Recoveries have amounted to $1 9, 000 over the last year, or during the coming year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed, (

c) passed, (d) ••• MR. FROESE: Mr. Chai rman, are we on Resolution 11 6? or 115 .. . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 115 passed. Resolution 116 - MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak on this dealing with Community Development Services. I note from the report on Page 56 there's a short paragraph on the development of the co-operatives and credit unions among the Indians. It mentions that there's a pulpwood co-operative been established in Berens Ri ver, and also that a Fish Producers Co-opera tive and a Consumers Co-opera tive were initiated in the community.

I would like to know from the Minister how are these making out. Are they functioning quite well? Do they have to be supervised by government staff, and if so how many are we employing in that way? The Consumer Co- operative I take will probably be dealing with such matters as having a store and I would like to know a little more about it, the amount of inventory and so on. Is it a sub stantial affair ? And then how much money are we voting to these particular matters in connection with setting up co-operatives and credit unions.

I know that the Credit Union League a year ago or so employed an Indian girl for quite some time and trained her. We have other organiz ations that are doing work along this line and helping along, and I would like to know whether this is a real worthwhile program and whether we're putting enough into it to make it some thing worth while and that it will be developed. Probably the Minister could give us a little more information than what the report has to say here on the f11nctioning of these different concerns . MR. CARROLL: Mr.

Chairman, we do have reported in our last Annual Report some of the activities under Community Development which bear on the subject of co-ops and credit unions and things of that kind. The actual administra tion and the supervision for these various co-ops is provided in the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture. They provide the actual supervision and whatever guidance is required in the operation of the co-op itself. I think our interest in them primarily is to try to assist the local people to make the best use they can of local resources.

We are interested in the process of developing co-ops as a tool to help local people to achieve local goals and to develop confidence in their ability to do things for them selves, to develop local leadership and these sorts of things. We're more interested in that frankly than in the actual success of the project.

I think, however, the success of the project is very important and does provide very substantial incentives to local people beca use they are able then to get a better price for their fish; they're able to get a better return to the local community. for the cutting of the pulpwood and the sale of the pulpwood. In many cases it's the only source of income they would have. Without the particular co-op, the resources would go undeveloped.

So we think this is a very important tool in helping the community development process which in effect helps local citizens to make the best advantage of their opportunitie s, to help them to develop the leadership skills and the kind of confidence that they need, and in many cases to move on from these to a better life outside the community-in many cases. MR. FROESE: What I'm interested in is whether they're persevering in their effort. Are they in it one day and not giving thought or effort another day? Is this something that - is there any indication that there will be success in this venture?

• 1334 March 28 , 1966 MR. CARROLL: There's a very substantial indic ation that they are successful. Unfortu nately, I had a copy of the report from the department dealing with the number of co-ops that were actually under way during the last 12 months and the degree of success that they have had - unfortunately, I don't have the report with me here today but it is safe to say that a great many of these have been financial successes. The local people have enjoyed substantial benefits from the operation of these co-ops.

It is true too that some of them have failed, but having failed, we think that there is some value in at least having attempted it; some value in having gone through this effort; and possibly in failing they've learned that next time they must do things differently, that there are other efforts required, that maybe they require a little more supervision than what they had before and things of that kind. Unfortunate ly, I can't give you further details but I'll be very pleased to provide it privately after if that 's satisfactory. MR. SHOEMAK ER : Mr.

Chairman, as late as this afternoon five or six Grade 12 students from my constituency of Gladstone were in the building , two of whom were quite interested in spending the summer holidays - four or five months 1n working with the Indian and Metis in the northern areas, and the

section of the report that is before us on Community Development Ser vices points up that there is yet a great deal of work to be done. I wonder if there is an outlet for a number of Grade 12 and first and second year university students to go north in some capacity to help solve some of the problems that are out lined by the Minister in this

section of I the report, and if so, how many are required; how do they assess their abilities in this respect; and to whom would they make application. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, we have no provision in these estimates to hire substan tial numbers of young people to put in part-time employment in this particular field of work. MR. SHOEMAKE R: Mr. Chairman, is there a shortage of workers generally, social workers -o r I don't know what term my honourable friend uses for those persons who are re quired to work with the Indian and work with him at the community level.

I've been reading some of the report here and indeed there are two pages of recommendations of what should be done, what is in fact being done to carry out the recommendations contained herein. Isn't there some fie ld of training in some department, either under welfare -I would think this wou ld come under welfare - perhaps between welfare and education, to encourage more younger people in this field. Is there an opportunity for a young person to go north in the summer holidays and work with the Indian people ? MR. CARROLL: Mr.

Chairman , I think there is certainly a shortage of good workers in community development. I think one only has to look at the kind of staff that we have built up over the years and look at the way in which other governments have come in to take the people that we have trained - been working with to train - and have taken them away to work in other provinces or at the federal level. I think you don't just hire people and send them out to work with Indians.

I think you must I fir st of all have people with as high an academic training as possible , partic ularly in those sciences that deal with people, the social work profession, anthropology and all of these things . We've even worked with teachers with good academic standing and given them special training over a period of weeks so that they might in addition to their teaching profession lend some of their part-t ime to helping people by way of adult education and working to impart this commu- nity development phi losophy in some of these underdeveloped communities.

I think it wou ld be foolhardy to take young people without adequate training or preparation and put them to work in this field. I think people must have certainly a broad understanding of the problems and an understanding of some of the techniques that have proved, at least up to this point, to be success- ful in helping people of Indian ancestry, or for that matter an yone in under-developed areas to improve their situa tion. I don't think you can do it on a part-t ime basis. I think you have to have full-time people in this field.

I think you have to have people with proper background and training and experience if you 're going to have a successful program. We have a tremendous shortage of these people today. We hope to be able to encourage more into this profession. We have provision in these estimates to expand the work of our department in community development, and parti cularly in the placement aspect of that program so that we can help people in under-developed areas to take advantage of some of the employment opportunities that will be developing in the immediate future . MR. WRIGHT: Mr.

Chai rman, I was impressed by the scope of the report on Community Deve lopment Services in the Annual Report, but I get the feeling that the Minister is not bubb ling over with enthusiasm. I thought that if there was anything that he should stand up at this Session and tell us about with ....•. would be this Community Development Services. One can understand,

March 28, 1966 1335 (MR. WRIGHT cont'd) .•. when you Look at the report, the size of the job. When you think that only 14 percent of the people of Metis and Indian ancestry are touched by this Community Develop ment Services, he's right when he says that there is very much more to be done. Just a minute ago we were talking about training social workers and we noted that the amount had been cut down. The Minister says in regard to the Community Development Services that he hope s to get trained people. Well what are they doing about it ?

It seems to me that we're on the threshold of doing a wonderful job here along the Lines of community development. The Manitoba Hydlro are to be commended for the way in which they moved the people concerned with the Grand Rapids Development - they moved them to Ea sterville. I noted that last time they contributed $40, 000. I take it that there will be no more contributions from Manitob a Hydro; I imagine their job is now completed.

But this certainly leaves a great responsibi lity on the shoulders of the government and I think that this program will simply deteriorate or it can become a wonderful thing, and in view of the fact that we have now announced the bl.g development of the Nelson, I think that we have to make sure that this does not fail. I think that we should make sure we're going to get trained people in the area of community development. MR. CARROLL: ..•. I shouldn't let the remark go -- our estimates this �ar actually show an increase for bursaries.

Unfortunately the way they are set up, all of the bursary assistance is not shown under that one ite m. We have provided under our grants and charitable institutions another item for bursari es. We have in our own estimates $6 8, 000 for educational leave for members of our own staff who have a degree but who have not got their degree in the social work profession, so there are many other ways in which we're helping to train people. We've got our new welfare course going in Brandon - we have, I think, 30 people out there under training today - so that they can work in this whole field of social work.

Now, it is true that you need highly specialized people to work in community development. We have two new community development officer positions in these est imates, and we have a very substantial expansion in the program that deals with the placement of people in employment; the whole process of involving people in assessing them, in referring them to training, in actual assistance with job placement, and in the follow-up procedure to make sure that they adapt themselves well to their work environment and they don't end up back in the under-developed area from which thEly came.

So there is a very substantial improvement in this service this year. We!re certainly enthusiastic about the possibilities of it. We think we have adequate staff provided for here that will help us to get into this job. We may be back next year asking for substantial further growth in staff to deal with the problem. but we think we've got enough in the se estimates to at least get this job started of manpower training for people from under developed areas. We know it's a big one.

We aren't over-confident because we know some of the dimensions of the problem, but we are confident that we are able to make a reasonable start on it within the estimates that are under consideration at the moment. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, before you pass the resolution, I would Like to have an explanation under (

e) Recovery from Manitob a Hydro. How does Manit.oba Hydro come into this situation here :md could we have an explanation? MR. CARROLL: As you know, Manitob a Hydro was responsible for the flooding in the forebay area in Grand Rapids. There was certain displacement of people in that area. The Cedar Lake settlement was relocated. It involved the relocation of an Indian band and a fairly substantial community of Metis people. There was also, of course, a great deal of disturbance of the people living in the Moose Lake settlement.

Part of these costs were provided for by Manitoba Hydro to' :lBsist community development in he lping these people to re-establi sh in their new communities and in the new environment, which they found after the foreba y had been filled. This was talte'n care of in the estimates last year. This year we have a new agreement with the Government of Canada providing for a cost-sharing arrangement between Canada and the Province of Manitoba to take care of the responsibilities which were partly shared by Hydro in previous years. . . . • . . . continued on next page

1336 March 28, 19 66 MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for St. John's . MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. The point I wish to raise, Mr.

Chair man, is one that could have come under Welfare Services but it seems to be more fitting to be dealt with under Commu nity Development Services , which according to the last Annual Report provides a method of setting techniques used in moving people to attain certain goals , and the stim ulation is to identify the areas of need ; establish priorities of need ; plan what to do about the need and test alternatives; relate the need to the sources of services available to meet the need; and participate in the implem entation of the solution. These are fine princip les, a fine goal for which to work.

I' d like to deal with the experiment which was conducted by the Public Welfare Depart ment of the City of Winnipeg in their employment program which they had in mi nd to use for the purpose of attempting to rehabilitate .certain people on relief.

This experiment, which they entitled "Experim ent in Motivation, "d efines certain as sumptions as follows: That all people wish to experience achievement; that unem ployment is a defeat to these people not a choice; that repeated use of welfare in the past means destruction of motivation relative to the normal work environment and that such deterioration is affective generally, not only in respect to employment; and the final assu mption, that rehabilitation is impossi ble without provision of a useful role of some kind .

They are dealing with the problem of attempting to rehabilitate families who have been on relief for so long that it becomes a way of life, and they feel that it is not possi ble just to offer employment in the normal market-place for people of that type be cause they have to have a motivation and they have to have a direction.

The hypothesis in this experiment, in part, reads as follows: That in changing the work environmen t to com pensate for personality defects and avoid glaring and impossi ble differences which would set the participants too obviously apart, we can re-stimula te a work-oriented family attitud e. This should mean differences of attitude toward counselling efforts; im proved conditions for rearing of children; and revival of a desi re to achieve; which may lead to normal employment. The basic dynamic in these consequences would be dignity .

Sim ultane ously, it is postulated that employment as it is understood to be can be synthesized. Again, it is a recognition that you cannot take people who have been on relief for a long period of time, and maybe generations - and there are such cases - and just say to them 1 'Here is a job, go to work. 11 They are no longer motivated in that way, and the Public Welfare Department of the city thought that they would try out an experiement which would be challenging and which would offer some form of solution because there appeared to be none.

The prelim inary thought that I' m reading from , of the Director, was as follows : 11We have largely proposed that people will have a choice between planned employment or employ ment in the market place, and relief will cease to be. In the long-run, this can happen . In the short-run, there is no power on earth that can make a man work if he gets his back up, and I don 't think we want a test of strength at this juncture. " And they establish certain prin ciple s. "Every person want s to do som ething positive with his life. Motivation within the existing social structur e cannot arise from coercion.

Work has to be useful and feasible. They want to involve clients and their wives in a frank planning process and include emphasis upon the need to make this demonstration project, to antic ipate permanent employment and assure the partic ipants of this . To continue with active counselli ng function, and devise a profile of some kind in the beginning to show family condition now and .what it mi ght be at quarterly intervals hereafter .

" I think that that was an ambitious project and one worthy of support, and yet this project was proposed almost a year ago, but it was brought into experiment stage by the city, I think in October of 1965, and by January of 1966 they felt that they had reached a stage where they could attempt to do something, to expand the program, and certainly they thought they were entitled to some financial help. There is a report I have in my hand from the Winnipeg Free Press and unfortunately I have not yet fallen into the habit of keeping a record of dates, but I1 m sure it's in January of 1966 .

The report is a lengthy one and starts with the statement, "The City of Winnipeg 's revolutionary scheme to inject dignity into programs of public relief is beginning to prove its worth after three and a half months of operation . Revolving around the central assump tion that orthodox welfare practic es are self-defeating, Winnip eg's planned employment contains within it the seeds of a radical transformation of the conventional concepts of public ass istance. Mr.

Meyers, the Director of the City of Winnipeg Public Welfare program, stated that this is the first solid rehabilitation that has ever occurred in these cases after years of public I ' I l

March 28, 19 66 1337 (MR. CHERNIACK cont•d.) ..... assistance. The major problem is simply that these people are working out their problems in a realistic and humane living experience instead of the re lief vacuum . 11 The story continues, "Although the Provincial Government has so far refused to take

part in the project, (Municipal Minister Robert G. Smellie recently called it a Make Work Affair) sympathetic interest has been expressed. 11 Well, later issues of the Press, and I think this one I have is from The Tribune and is dated January 25, 19 136, reports that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has on behalf of the government rejected a second time a request for the province to participate financially in this Work for Welfare Program . This second attempt by the city was under the Winter Works Program and Mr. -- well, the Minister of Municipal Affairs said "No, this is a make-work program.

It's not tbe kind of a program that is involved in winter works. 11 And that makes sense, it isn't. But !the first attempt apparently was to bring it before the Minister of Pub lic Welfare, and I galther from copies of documents I have that at one time it was thought that they would try to fit it into their Social Welfare Ass istance program and then discovered that it did not come under that Act. So for want of

an Act apparently, no help was forthcoming from the province in terms of guiding and assisting In this program and sharing in the cost, and the result is that the city is apparently going it alone. Now this was towards the end of January. Several months have elapsed and possibly there is more progre,ss and more to be reported of which I am not aware because I only have the press reports, and yet I am amazed to come to the conclusion from these press reports that the province is n.ot participating in this experimental program.

It seems to me a really exciting one; it seems to me that it would be completely in accord with the program of the government on Community Development, and if it isn't in that program it certainly still comes within the Welfare Th�partment•s orbit. I would like to hear from the Minister an evaluation of the benefits of this. experiment, an evaluation of the validity of making it, and an explana tion as to why the province is not participating in it and brushing it off as it did as a Make-Work Program.

Now I'm not critical of the Minister of Municipal Affairs because I don't see that this belongs there, but up to this moment I am critical of the' Minister of Welfare until I hear his answer on this pr·oblem and possibly then I will withdraw my criticism . MR . CARROLL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it •s safe to say that we are enthusiastic about the project as 11uch. We think it is a major step forward in an attempt to rehabilitate people who have, by experience, been dependent for a great long time.

Unfortunately, when the program was firs1t brought forward it certainly didn't meet any statutory requirements that we have for giving as:sistance. It was a departure, and a: substantial departure from any pro grams that we had ha.d In effect.

There was no sharing under the Unemployment Ass istance Agreement with Ottawa, and because we were expanding and expanding fairly quickly in assist ance to municipalities under many other programs, our Social Allowances Act, the main one, we felt that we could not at that stage embark on an additional program of this kind under which the province I think vvould have paid about 90 percent of the cost with the remaining 10 percent being picked up by the City of Winnipeg. We are still extremely Interested In this program .

We understand that programs of this kind will qualify for assistance, and incidentally, at the same time that we were unfortunately having to turn down the City of Winnipeg, we were holding discussions with Ottawa telling them that this was the kind of program that we felt held a great deal of hope for dependent people and were asking them to change their Act so that we could accommodate this kind of a program in the futur•�. So while we didn't participate In this program, we were enthusiastic about it. We think it's the kind of program that we would like to be able to participate in in the future.

We think we will be able to if the Government of Canada ever get around to con sidering the Canada Assi stance Plan. At the same time, we shouldn 't forget that we have another project under way on an ex perimental basis, the multi-service project down in the Salter-Jarvis area which is working on an. intensive basis with people who have similar disabilities as the ones that were outlined in this program, so the province really was engaged in programs for people who live and work in these under-deveh>ped areas.

Unfortunately, we weren't able to participate at that time ; we will certainly look forward to participating with them in other such projects in the future. MR . CHERNIA CK: Mr. Chairman, I do not withdraw my criticism . I feel that the en thusiasm expressed by the Minister is a very mild enthusiasm . If this province is so restricted and limited by the statutory requirements of which the Minister speaks, then what ability does the province have to participate in an experiemental project.

March 28, 1966 1338 (MR. CHERNIACK cont 1d, ) . Now I make a strong point of the fact that this was an expe rimen tal project.

It wasn •t a definite program to which the province would be comm itted for a certain percentage of an unknown am ount of money, and when he speaks of 90 percent, I suggest that that•s a very small am ount of money in term s of the total, because the project at the time it was proposed to the province involved the em ployment of six men, But if the government can 't afford 90 perc ent - and maybe it can 't - then maybe they could have made a deal, ma ybe they could have settled for a lesser sum .

If they needed the help of the City of Winnipeg to finance the program - the City of Winnipeg is apparently paying 100 percent - possibly the city could have paid 90 and the province 10 if that's the financial position involved. But surely this government with it's welfare program is not going to wait for Ottawa to participate in an experime nt of this type, Sur ely this government is not prepared to let mat ters stand until Ottawa get around to it if it's a worthwhile experiment.

The word "enthusi astic" used by the Honourable Minister would indicate to me an attitude which would go some what beyond writing to Ottawa and discussi ng with Ottawa and waiting for Ottawa. Why in this very House in the last short period of time, the Provincial Treasurer got up and des cribed the whole Nelson Project and all the money involved in the Nelson River Project.

And he said, "We 're " -- well these aren't his words, he didn't say we're going it alone, but when one started to dissect what he was talking about, we found out that Manitoba is going it alone and that the only help that Manitoba is getting is from a banker, a broker - a banker which is providing money with which to build part of this project in the Nelson River to be spread over and repaid over a period of time with interest. That banker is the Government of Canada.

Well, that's fine, The province found a banker for that purpo se but otherwise they•re going it alone, and when it comes to this six-man experiment, apparently the Minister finds it neces sary to write to Ottawa and carry on discussi ons with Ottawa about making some amendments in Ottawa in order to be able to participate in this project. If there were statutory limitations on the Department of Welfare to participate in the project, and if it was worthwhile and if the Minister was as enthusiastic as he says he is, then surely he could have brought in amending legislation here.

We •ve been here for quite a while now. It could have ' been brought in; it could have been dealt with; and I wouldn't be surprised if he brought it in this week that it wouldn •t be passed just as quickly as one of the supply bills was passed here today, So that if he's hampered by legislative restrictions, then surely he had the power to influence his side of the House to give him a little more freed om . Now the project - the multi-service project in the Lord Selkirk area is surely not this - not this type of experiment.

If it is, then he should forget his enthusiasm about this experi me nt and send the city over to the multi-service project. But it isn't that. The multi-service project is a different approach and an important one, but this is a very specific and even limited at tempt by the city to carry on this experim ent which, after 3t months, they claim is a fruitful one.

If the Minister sa id we •re cautious ; we •re looking at it; the city is doing it; we •llleave it to the city; I would understand it, but let him not share in this enthusiasm without doing some paying of part of the cost and without some participation in the evaluation of the program .

Let not a creature of the Manitoba Government - that is the City of Winnipeg, a creation of the Manitoba Government -b e charged with the respons ibility of carrying on a welfare program which is the provincial respons ibility - as far as I know it •s not a federal one either - it •s a provincial respons ibility, this que stion of welfare, and I don't think the province should avoid it by either waiting for money from Ottawa or waiting for the City of Winnipeg to conduct this experiement on its own, MR.

CARROLL: I just want to poin t out that at the time it was turned down by us, we indicated that there was a door open to them through the Winter Works Program which they could still have availed themselves of had they decided to se lect a different kind of project, one that would have qualified under the Fed eral Winter Works scheme.

They could, as I under stand our regulations, could have rece ived 100 percent of the cost under that particular pro gram, 50 percent paid for by Ottawa and the balance being paid for by Manitoba, had they se lected a project that would have qu alified under that particular scheme. However, they chose not to, they chose to se lect another kind of program through the commu nity clubs, and this of course was ineligible for that kind of cost-sharing, But we •re still enthusiastic about the pro gram and we still hope to participate in this kind of a project with them in the fu ture. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. <:;hairman, I'm bound to say that reading the press report, the Minister of Muni cipal Affa irs who is in charge of the Winter Works Program sa id, 11 This is a I I

March 28, 19 66 1339 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd. ) ..... make-work project and we don't need make-work projects in the city at the present time.

They 're not needed, these programs. 11 Now if there was some other program in which the same assu mptions and the same objectives could have been achieved, then sure:ly the Department of Welfare of this province would have participated with the city in discussi ng the nature of the program and seeing whether or not it would fit. lf it didn't fit, then eithElr the city was wrong and the Welfare Department of this province should have told them they're wrong and said, "Now this or the other project which is eligible for Winter Works is junt as good," or else the Minister should not lean back and say, "Well, they chose to select a different project.

" Obviou sly, they must have chosen a different pro ject because this Winter Works one would not have suited the welfare needs and the readjust me nt and the rehabi.litation needs of the people involved. Surely the city wouldn't turn down money just because of a project un less it was an important difference, and if it was important, I wonder if the Minister can inform us in that respect. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Chairman, it was very clear that the Minister of Mun icipal Affairs speaking for the government definitely rejec ted this, and I think if we read the first paragraph of this

article which was in January of this year : 11 Smellie says •no• to welfare plan. " It •s very cl,ear. 11 The Provincial Government has rejected for a se cond time a re quest by the City Htlalth and Welfare Committee that the province participate financially in Winnipeg's Work fo:r Welfare expe riment. This was revealed Monday in a letter from Muni cipal Affai rs Minister R. G. Smellie. 'This matter receiv ed sincere consideration before a decis ion was reached to reject the application at this time, 1 Mr. Smellie said. 11 Mr.

Chairma 111, I think that this is one of the instances again that we have a lack of policy from the Cabinet. It seems that one Minister understands something one way and another in another way. Since this rejection there was a mee ting of the Winnipeg Chamber of Com me rce. It was held on March 11, 19 66, at 12 noon in Moore •s Restaurant, and that's not so long ago - and there 's another change. I think we should have the policy once and for all. This is what it says : "Mr.

Danzker stated that he was rece iving excellent co-operation from the province and had just met with the Minister of Health and it is entirely feasible that the Health and Welfare area would be taken over by the province. 11 Now could we have the policy of the government once and for all officially here this afternoon, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN : (a) -- MR. DESJARJ[) lNS: Could we, Mr. Chairman, or do we have to wait until the next meet ing of the Chamber of Commerce? MR. CHAffiMAN : (a) -- passed, (b) -- passed. MR. DESJ ARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, does the Minister ref use to give us a policy on this? lsn •t this public. MR. CARROLL: I think what the only comm ent I can make is that the project that was proposed to the Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs clearly did not qualify under the Winter Works scheme. All I said was that I thought that that experiment could have been introduced in another way us ing a different kind of project, and had full sharing both by the Government of Canada and the GoVElrnment of Manitoba under the Winter Works Program .

That's all I'm saying, that the proJect that was selected did not lend itself to sharing under that program. This is a program tlb.at •s been set up and well recognized by the municipalities across Manitoba and ma ny of them are using this program to ma ke work for people who might otherwise be re ceiving ass istance, and they're getting very substantial ass istance from both governments under this program . I must agree that the decision that was ma de by the Minister at that time was the proper decision.

I also say that it could have been brought forward in a slightly different way to have qualified under that program . Now it might not have suited the requirements of the city for other reaso ns, and ][ think maybe this is the suggestion made by the member for St. John 's, and I'm not going to qu arrel with that point of view because he may be entirely right. All I can say. is that if the proper federal legislation is introduced, this may be possible with full sharing by them and by ourselves under program s that are pres ently operated . MR.

CHERNIACK: I was going to leave it as it is, but in view of what the Minister has just said, I am wonder ing whether he really appreciates the program that was proposed by the city, because as I w1de rstand it, it was important that these people be given worthwhile work but that they were not capable of competing in the open mar ket for employment, and I am un der the impress ion that :any Winter Works project has to be involved in a regular form of employ me nt where they would be working side by side with people who are able to compe te in the open market.

1340 March 28, 19 66 (MR.

CHERNIACK cont 'd.) Well now, the Minister is shaking his head at me and I accept his presumably superior knowledge in this field, but I am saying that if he has this superior knowledge, could he not have this discussi on with the City of Winnipeg Director of Public Welfare and point out to him , now this or the other method is one whereby you can qualify and not hurt the objectives of the program ; and if he had that discussion, is he prepared now to say that the city was wrong in not complying or picking a project which was in line with Winter Works, If he did not discuss this aspect with the department then I accuse him of not carrying out his responsibilities , be cause if he felt it was feasible that all the assumptions were correct, that the method and ap proach was correct, and if it was possible to raise money under the Winter Works Program, then I say it was his responsibility to point it out and to try to sell his point of view, and if he did not succeed in selling it because the city was wrong, let him say so.

MR. DESJARDINS: We can argue this, but I think the important thing and what the Minister should consider is try to arrange for a meeting of some of his colleagues in the Cabi net. There's the Minister of Municipal Affairs is involved here ; my friend the Minister of Welfare ; and according to this article, the Minister of Labour - he•s all surprised, he just woke up and he •s all surprised when I said this - maybe he should read this

article because he •s certainly supposed to be looking into this also; and the Minister of Health. I would sug gest that this is serious enough - it might be an idea to just hold on for awhile and let these people meet. I think that we should not pass this item now and let's wait till after supper and maybe we should have something, because this is important enough, And while we•re at it, maybe the four Ministers can tell us if there is anything, is there a possib111 ty, is there anything at all to this statement of Mr.

Danzker at the last meeting of the Chamber of Commerce where they said it's feasible that the Health and Welfare area would be taken over by the province. Now I don't imagine these people guessed this, Now if this is som ething, I think that we should have it now, Some of these Ministers are so afraid to discuss certain things and we have to find out by the newspaper what's going on. We found that in another field, in the field of education today. All of a sudden they're all interested in television. Was something mentioned in the estimates?

Nothing was said, So I think that this is important enough, This is something that's not a question of who's right and who's wrong; it's something that should be done, Try to give a little more - I don't know, if you give some of these people a little more self respect then I would suggest that these four Ministers should get together soon and at least say the same thing, because right now we•re being moved from one to the other and we don't know what's going on, The Minister of Labour - it •s clear he doesn't know what this is all about at all.

I would suggest to the Minister that he would keep this in abeyance, We could pass on to something else and maybe this evening he might have an idea of a clear-cut policy, not only his department because it's not fair to put all the blame on his shoulders. There's four Ministers that are concerned for this particular program, so I think that maybe we should have a clear-cut policy of the Cabi net, the government. MR. CHAIRMAN : (a) -- passed; (b) -- passed ; (c) -- passed; Resolution No, 116 - passed. Resolution No. 11 7, (a) -- MR .

WRIGHT: I have mentioned previously the Senior Citizens Home in West Kildonan and I don't want to be lengthy about this, but I pointed out that because it was the only privately owned elderly persons housing in Canada, being privately owned the rents were substantially higher, and I felt that this was a disc rimination against the people of my area. But I wanted to ask the Minister that should a service club such as the Kiwanis Club or Rotary Club decide to purchase this development, would the governmen t under The Elderly and Infirm Persons Housing Act m:i.ke a contribution in the way of a grant.

I am reminded that The Elderly and Infirm Persons Housing Act was des igned to encourage municipalities and private community organizations, with support from the Provincial Government, to provide specially designed low rental accommodation for elderly and infirm persons in need.

Now the private citizen who built this had those very things in mind, but it seems to me - and we •ve discussed this . every year -I don't see any chance to get a grant from the government toward reducing the rents there, and I would wish to have the Minister confirm that the government would make a grant should a service club wish to buy it. MR . CARROLL: I'm afraid, Mr. Chairman, there's nothing in the Act as I understand it that would enable us to make a gran t for the purchase of a project such as this.

It is possible to make a grant to a club that might be purchasing a building to be renovated for elderly and I • I

March 28, 196 6 1341 (MR. CARROLL con t•d. ) ..... infirm persons housing, but there's nothing in the Act as I understand it to provide for a grant for the purpose of purchasing a building that was already existing and being us1ed for this purp ose. It certainly might well qualify then for exemption of munici pal taxes of various kinds as a result of being run by a non-profit organization , There mi ght be that advantage to it being taken over by a service club. MR .

WRIGHT: .•.......•. non-profit -- the present management - it was built un der Central Mortgage and Housing Act - but it seems that there has been no chance at all for the rents to come down, in fact they had to go up because of local improvement.

The government was approached at th1a time to see whether they would pay a portion of the local improvements and this isn't possi bl1a, I don't know what the future of this place would be, but the fact is the people there are paying mo re than in any other senior citizen development in Manito ba, and if grants are available Jtor people to build things; I thought it woul dn't be unreasonable to ask for a grant for the taking over of this development - for a non-profit organization to acquire owner- �� - MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Car1llo n): Mr.

Chairman, also speaking on the elderly and infirm persons hou sing, I noti ce., although it •s a little further down, that the grants have not increased at all in this department. I also have possi bly a bit of a peculiar case in the Village of St. Pierre where they have been applying for some time to get one of these homes. I know that their Chamber of Commerce and their church, the Roman Catholi c Church has acted down there, and some of the others have been in several times and of course the answer has been that there iEJ no money at this time.

I think they are working with this project and I hope that possi bly the Minister has som ething on that to refer back to, But I think generally speaking as far as the job done, espe cially your director there, Mr. Noy es, I think h1e needs to be complim ented in the way he's handled our case, and I know that I have had the honour, or the privilege of working with this gentleman in regards to some of the commi ttees at Steinback and other places, but it seems that this one at St.

Pierre is not getting off its fee1t the way it should , Poss ibly I could go into detail with it which I don't want at this time, bu1t I'm just wondering if the Minister has anything about it at this time. MR . CARROLL: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's one of the projects, as I un derstand, that is under consideration for next year.

I would like to just point out that while the estimates don 't show an increa�Je in grants for the coming year, because of the change in our Act this year, this $750, 000 will provide a great deal mo re elderly perso ns housing than was ever pos sible under any previous grant that was voted to that amount. In fact, I think the biggest build ing program in the history of the province with respect to the elderly persons housing is im mediately ahead of u�J. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, when we were discussing the per diem rates in private institutions the other day, my honourable friend said that he didn't think that there was a private or public institution in the province that had per diem rates as low as $3 .0 0 - or $3 .9 5 I think I mentioned .

If this Order for Return that we rece ived a year ago is com pletely out-dated then perhaps he is correct, but the Order for Return No. 17 of last year supplies the House with sever11l pages of. the per diem rate on all institu tions in Manito ba, and I notice that they run all the way from a low of $2. 20 - $2. 20, $3 , 45, $4. 80, $3. 60, $5 . 04, $5. 28, $5.1 3, $3. 45, $3 . 80 , $4. 07, $3. 90 - and I wonder if there has been a new

schedule of rates that the government pay in respect to the per diem rate in these institut io ns . Then too, Mr.

Chairman, I know that there is an area that is of concern to quite a number of people and that is, what are the qualifications that are neces sary for a person to enter an elderly persons housllng accommoda tion of any kind - there are many of them - because it has often been sa id that U•s not true that there are milli onaires oc cupying these subsidized insti tutions that they're building all over the prov ince , So I would be in terested in knowing who de termines the admittan ce to them and what are the finan cial limitations in respect to admissio n to them, and what is the basis of priority for admittance to them.

In consideration of the fact that the government makes a contribu tion and in consideration of the fact that the community makes a contribut ion,. both a fin ancial contribution when the institution is built and then a further contribu tion in the way of taxes over the years, it seems to me that in certain cases there should be a clo13er watch on the finances of people who enter them . MR.

CARROLL: One of the requirements of The Elderly Persons Housing Act of our department in administering this Act is that there be a Local Admissions Commi ttee estab lished, and on that Local Admissi ons Comm ittee are representatives of the own ers of the hom e; the sponsor, whoever that happens to be - usually a voluntary or religious or non-profit

1342 March 28, 1966 (MR. CARROLL cont'd. ) organization of some kind - they will be repres ented together with usually someone from the me dical professi on, the Health Unit in-the area possibly and quite often a member of our department if they're available in the area, or some other person ass ociated with the Welfare Comm ittee, possibly the local counsellor or whatever . So there is an attemp t made to have a Local Admissions Comm ittee who know the local people, the local situation, to admit people on the basis of need.

The need may be exclusively financial but it could also be a phys ical need, because of a certain disability or the certain situation of a family, that they may require some priority consideration in admittance. to a home. Cer tainly there is a financial consideration and, as I un derstand, the requ ir.e ment is that the in come of the individual can •t be more than five times the rental value of the accommo dation into which they are moving. This is, I un derstand, a requirement too of the National Housing Act but I'm not sure of that point. So there is an attempt ma de to admit people on the basis of need.

They consider the priorities of need within the community and with respec t to the individual applicants, and they admit on that basis. With respect to per diem ra tes, I was talking the other day about personal-care homes - I think that was the subject of our discussi on at that time, nursing homes or personal-care homes - the member for Minnedosa was talking about $3 .5 0 and I indicated that I didn't think that we had any personal-care homes in the province that were recei ving a rate as low as that at this particular time.

There was a change in policy about a year ago or a little more which did have the effect of increas ing the rates fairly substantially to the proprietary homes . As far as the non-proprietary homes, I think we still work that on the basis of the actual costs involved in providing se rvice on a non-profit basis to the patients within the homes - the resi dents within the homes. MR. SHOE MAKER: Mr.

Chairman, in light of the answers that the Honourable Minister has just given to the Hous e, I take it that if a couple were occu pying accommoda tion where the rent was determined to be - we'll say $60 per month, then he could have an income of five times that or $300 per month and qualify financially for admittance to the home, and if it was $100 a month, he could have an income of $500 and qualify. Now with a lot of older people their income is investment income, and what are the limitations then placed on the capital that yields the investment income. This is a problem that comes up occas ionally.

That is, it would take an enormous am ount of capital to yield $300 a month of an investment income. Is it possible then? If you had $50, 000 invested at six percent, is it possible then for a couple to retain the $50, 000 because their income was still $300 and below the income required under the Act? MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, I would doubt that there would be any people with that kind of capital living in very many of the projects that are sponsored under our Elderly and Infirm Persons Housing Act.

I would be very pleased though to try to get the exact -- I don't really know how they calculate the income based on a capital which may be invested. I'll try and .find that out for you. Certainly I wouldn't think that they would look very favourably or give very much priority to people who had a very substantial am ount of capital stashed away in the bank, nor would I think that very ma ny people with capital would be looking for accom modation in these kinds of home s. Now some of them may.

I think we 're talking about a slightly different situation too when we're talking about personal-care homes, because here is a case where a person may have a lot of money but through no choice of his own he has to have this kind of accomm odation because of his physical deficiency, and I think this situation is som ewhat different from people who live in ordinary elderly persons housing accomm odation which we generally refer to as either hou sing accom modation or hostel accommoda tion. I think here we would use our very strict financial criteria for mea suring the person 's need.

In the case of a personal-care home, I think we would be us ing an altogether different financial criteria because the real need there becomes a physical need rather than a financial need, but I will undertake to try to get that information for my friend and provide it to him later. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I have a qu estion under housing before the Minister gets off his department.

At the pres ent time there is a great need for housing accommoda tion for the physically handicapped, and if we look, we have some real good low rental housing accommoda tion and still there were no provisions ma de for these people. There were no for instance, if we •re thinking of Burro ws-Keewatin housing development which we had the op portunity to go throu gh last year I believe, why couldn •t at least two units be made with larger doors and bigger bathroom facilities to accommoda te physica lly handicapped people so they I I I I I

March 28, 1966 1343 (MR. PATRICK con t'd. ) ..... could - particularly the paraplegic - so that they could get in with a carriage and so on. Right now we are having urban renewal programs under way, and when there are provincial and federal grants involved, why couldn •t we specify that at least a couple of units or half a dozen units in a big development have provisions for that type of ac comm odation. I am sure it could be possib le. MR . CARROLL: Mr.

Chairman, in most of the accommo dations that are being provided today we do try to design them to take care of physical handicaps of people; we do try to pro vide some units in each project that will accomm odate people who will require wheel-chair accommoda tion or other kind of assis tance of that kind . I'm not sure that the physica lly han dicapped, particularly younger people, want to be accomm odated in elderly persons hou s ing projects. I think maybe there is some argument against this kind of accommo dation .

Now there may be many other ways in which we can look after phys ically handicapped people and certainly the government is anxious to provide for people with physical frailties in all the new projects that we•re sponsoring in terms of public buildings and things of that kind. I know that there is quite a program under way if you try to get architects and other builders to try to make these sort of provisions in ordina ry accommoda tion - privately-built accommoda tion as well - and we would certainly support that endeavo ur. MR. CHAIRMAN : (a) -- passed; (b) - - passed; Resolution No. 117 -- passed.

De partment of Mines and Natural Reso urc es. I would ask the Member from Gladstone if he would please table that letter he promised to table last week when we were going over the es timates of the Provincial Secretary with regard to the Civil Service Commission. MR . SHOEW�.KE R: I was reading from the photographed copy. MR . CHAIRMAN : Pardon ? MR . SHOEMAKER: I was reading from a photographed copy and I sent it over to .•.. MR. CHAIRMAN: You said you would table the original. You'll be doing that? The Min ister of Mines and Natural Resourc es. HON. STERLING R. LYON Q.

C. (Minister of Mine s and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry) : Mr. Chairman, I know that honourable members are anxious to move right along with their consideration of the estimates and it •s not my intention to delay matters unduly with my opening statement. It will be brief, although I may say that brevity in this case is not going to be ea sy in view of the am ount of activity and progress which was made last year by the de partment. The year just passed was a good year for natural reso urce management and development in Manitob a.

In two areas, that is forestry and mi ning, very important steps have been made ; and in the third area, the commercial fishery, a bold new approach to a perennial problem has been forcibly presented to the Federal Government . I'm sure that all members of the House were pleased with the announcem ent that a large and com petent forest industry is going to develop in northern Manitoba and make use of our timber resources in that area. Our for esters have worked closely in developing a clear pic ture of the timber that is available and much work will be done in ensuing years in terms of inventory in that area.

In the next few years they will work to improve our forest protection organization in the north so that this raw timber is not lost to fire, or at least the amount of fire that is prevalent there will be cut down . Last year I announ ced a new system for allocating forest cutting rights. This quota system has since been introduced and is proving to be even more valuable than the department expected at the ou tset.

The small operators have at last been given an equity in the forest in which they have toiled for so long and the big operators are now in a position to buy cutting rights and so rational ize their operations that they are on an econom ic footing, ·in some cases for the first ti me. Consoli dation of some small holdings have taken place to the satisfaction of both the small operator who has sold out and the buyer who now has a guarantee of enough wood for his operation.

And of <equal importance, more and more operators throughout the province are now using all speci<es of wood in the forest, not just the most desirable one. This should in crease the value of our forest output and at the same time make efficient use of our forest re sour ces . In the mi ning field last year the value of mineral production went up about $7 million to $182 million and development started on two new min es .

One is by Internat ional Nickel at Soab Lake, 40 miles so uthwest of Thom pson; the seco nd is by Sherritt-Gordon Mines which is planning to develop a copper zinc deposit at Fox Lake, which is 28 miles from Lynn Lake.

1344 March 28, 1966 (MR. LYON cont 'd. ) ...•.

I'm sure that the relatively recent development program carried on by Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company in the Snow Lake Area is well kno\vn to members of the committee, That company has developed, or is in the process of developing a number of mining properties, We think immediately of Stall and Chisel Lake, which are in operation now; of Osborne Lake which is being developed; and of Anderson, Ghost and White Lakes where development work has been or is being done, We are hopeful that other announce ments of mining developments will be made in the months ahead, Exploration activity has continued at a very good rate.

More than 25 companies were in research last year and they spent between 4 and $5 million in exploration.

But in order to encourage more exploratory work in some of the lesser known parts of the province, we will introduce a bill later in the Session to provide for exploration incentives, The final details will be revealed when the bill is brought in, At this time I will say only that the incentive program is being designed to stimulate exploration in designated areas of Manitoba by helping bona fide prospectors and smaller exploration and mining companies, although the big ones will qualify for the assistance as well, We expect to generate exploration activity in some of the areas of Manitoba particularly where more work should be done, The problems of the commercial fishing industry have plagued the fishermen and the government of this province for many yea rs.

No easy solution was visible and no easy solu tion has been found, but at least we think the right approach has been recommended to the Federal Government, which as you know is responsible under the law for the administration of the fishery. In response to Manitoba's request for a study into the feasibility o(a fish marketing board, the Federal Government last summer appointed Mr.

George H, Mcivor, formerly the head of the Canadian Wheat Board, to conduct such a study, At his hearings here in Manitoba the government, together with the fishermen and private individuals, made as strong a case as possible for a marketing board, We explained that a strong export marketing board could provide the base for rationalization of this perpetually ailing industry, It could provide stable prices for fishermen and a strong selling position in foreign markets. If this proposal is ac cepted, I think we can look forward to much better days for the commerc ial fishing industry in Manitoba.

I might add that partly as a result of the department 1s representations to the National Fisheries Conference in Ottawa two years ago, and later to the Federal Department of Fisheries, the Fisheries Research Board of Canada has decided to develop a $1 million re search and technological station on the University of Manitoba campus , This station will serve the fresh water fishery and be a focal point for the developing interest by the university in fisheries research.

At all times we had the wholehearted co-operation of the University of Manitoba in our representation to the Federal Fisheries Department and to the Fisheries Research Board of Canada, It is readily apparent that this achievement could not have been brought about without support from the university, I have another important announcement to make about the university, this time in con nection with our wildlife resource. Many of you w111 recall that last year I spoke of the role the university is playing in our Delta Marsh study and the management of waterfowl in that marsh.

I'm happy to announce an extension of the university's participation in this kind of work, An initial grant of $15 , 000 will be made to the university this year so that it can start developing on Crown land at Delta as the basis for a university field station for graduate and under-graduate study into all matters affecting marshes and their management. We look for ward to it playing an even bigger role in the future in the wildlife field in our province.

In spite of the good progress made last year and the bright prospects for the future, there are some areas where we can expect trouble, and one of these is in the area of profes sional staff. All across this country, and indeed in the United States as well, there is a con tinuing and growing demand for profess ional people in the resource management field - biolo gists, foresters, geologists, economists, soils specialists.

Within the past few months we have had reports that one federal department, to give you only one example, is looking for several hundred wildlife biologists ; another department plans to greatly enlarge its staff of foresters, Private industry is also competing for these highly trained people, with the result that there are fewer and fewer available for any one agency, In the time ahead we will have to strengthen our department by improving the lot of our professionals and by using every method we can to attract and to hold more of them, and I mention this because we are in an area of very extreme competition for these people at the present time. � I I I

March 28, 1966 1345 (MR. LYON cont'd. ) Having said that there is trouble in getting professi onals, I1m happy to say, Mr. Chair man, that the ones that we do have now are doing a first-rate job for us in every branch of the department. As evidence of the quality of the work that the department is doing, I can cite three international awards that were given to our branches last year. The mos t recent was a Certificate of Merit from the National Rifle Associ ation of America to the Hunter Safety Training Program carried on by the Wildlife Branch.

You•ll recall that this program was started just two years ago and already it has attracted respect both in Canada and the United States. The second award was made by the Printing Institute of America and was presented jointly to the Geology Division of the Mines Branch and to Bulman Brothers, a local printing firm, for the outstanding job they did in producing a geological map of Manitoba. Winning this award put Manitoba in the same category of map makers as Rand-McNally and G .•.••. two of the best known names in the business.

I might add that this map of ours, the first ever produced by the Provincial Government, was the only Canadian winner in the 1965 compe tition. The third award to the department was won by the Conservation Education

Section for its fisherm en's education extension program. This award was presented to us by the American Assoc iation for Cons ervation Information, an international organization of information and education people in the resource field from almost all the American states and in four Canadian provinces. These awards , Mr. Chairman, do more than ju

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-5-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 5th hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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