Manitoba Hansard — 25 July 2000 (Sitting 67, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-67

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Th irty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 67 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, July 25, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsiand Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

4397 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 25,2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Law Amendments Sixth Report Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Sixth Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Sixth Report.

Your committee met on Monday, July 24, 2000, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your committee has considered: Bill 13-The Taxicab Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les taxis Bill 23-The Jury Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jures Bill 25-The Inter pretation and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi d'inter pretation et modifications correlatives Bil/26-The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine Bill 27-T he Correctional Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services correctionnels Bill 28-The Northern Affairs Amendment and Planning Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les Affaires du Nord et Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire Bill 30-The Social Services Administration Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services sociaux Bill 34-T he Statute Law Amendment Act, 2000; Loi de 2000 modifiant diverses dispositions !egislatives and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered: Bill 32-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les droits des victimes and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the definition "victim " in the proposed subsection 1 (1), as set out in

section 4 of the Bill. be amended by adding "or is alleged to have been committe d" after "committe d" in the part before clause (a). MOTION: THAT the proposed

section 12, as set out in

section 4 of the Bill, be amended by adding the following after clause (k): (k.1) the possible application by a Crown attorney to the court to designate a convicted person as a dangerous offender under subsection 753(/) of the Crim inal Code (Canada);

4398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 MOTION: THAT the proposed

section 13, as set out in

section 4 of the Bill, be amended (

a) by adding the following after clause (e): (e. 1) the date, time and place of an application by a Crown att orney to the court to designate a convicted person as a dangerous offender under subsection 753{1) of the Criminal Code (Canada); and (

b) in clause (/), by adding ", including the outcom e of an application by a Crown attorney to the court to designate a convicted person as a dangerous offender under subsection 753(1) of the Crim inal Code (Canada)" after "prosecution".

Your committee has also considered: Bill 33-T he Highway Tr affic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives and has agreed to report the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT subsection 4(15) of the Bill be amended by adding the following after the proposed subsection 242.1(7. 1.2): Effect of revocation of previous seizure 242.1(7.1.3) For the purposes of subsections (7. 1.1) and (7. 1.2), the seizure of a vehicle shall not be considered as a previous seizure if (

a) the vehicle was released under subsection (1.4), (3. 1) or (]3); (

b) the seizure was rev oked under subsection (5) or (6); Your committee agreed not to complete clause by clause consideration of Bill 36-The

Summary Convictions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les poursuites

sommaires but to defer the completion of such consideration to a .future meeting of the Committee. Mr. Martindale: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Health Capital Projects Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Today I would like to update the House on Health capital projects. At any given time dozens of capital projects are in various stages of planning and development. Today I am pleased to announce six of these projects are ready to make the final leap from blueprint to actual bricks and mortar. Within the next year we can expect to see ground being broken on each of these projects. As they move ahead, a number of health care facilities will gain much-needed improvements that address some of the system's greatest needs and priorities.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has the highest rate of people needing dialysis, and the number of new patients is growing by over I 00 per year. That is why we are immediately moving ahead to make Seven Oaks Hospital a new site for dialysis service. The long-term plan is to make Seven Oaks the site of 30 stations capable of treat ing 180 patients. Construction will begin this September.

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4399 In August, construction will begin on a new emergency department to replace the crowded and inadequate facilities at Thompson General Hospital. The project will also bring CT scan capability to this region. St. Boniface General Hospital is about to begin upgrades that will solve some serious deficiencies in obstetrical space. The project will make the space more functional and provide new facilities for single-room maternity care along the more supportive and natural environment for low-risk births.

New nursing homes will soon replace two old facilities that are badly in need of replacement, Bethesda Personal Care Home in Steinbach and parts of Villa Youville in Ste. Anne. I would like to note that the need to replace Villa Y ouville was identified and committed to in 1994. It is time to get on with construction. At the Tache Centre residents can look forward to a new dining facility. Right now, residents of this personal care home are being forced to eat either in their rooms or in the corridors outside the elevators.

When construction begins in October, it will mean more than a new dining room for those who live at Tache. It will mean a better quality of life. For these capital projects the decision to proceed to tendering and construction was fairly straight forward. The planning process was well advanced and there was a need and pressing need for each upgrade. We just need to get on with the job of building. *( 13:35) For projects in the early stage of planning, the decision to proceed can be more difficult. Planning for some of these projects begins several years before construction begins.

During the planning period, technology is constantly advancing and the needs and pressures in the system are constantly shifting, and that brings us to the larger challenge. When I became Health Minister last fall I saw a need for a more responsible, flexible and realistic approach to capital planning. The developments leading up to the last election had created an urgent need for change. In the two years leading up to the last election, the Conservative administration announced appro vals of 76 Health capital projects. This represents a fairly ambitious plan for the next several years.

The binge of announcements was a sequel to the announcements preceding the 1995 election. At that time 94 projects said to be worth $678.3 million were announced. In 1996, the capital construction program was put on hold. By the 1999 election, 27 of these projects promised in 1995 remained unbuilt. The process of Health capital construction in Manitoba has become unpredictable. Pre-election promises have become post-election disappointments. Decisions have sometimes been made on the basis of a variety of concerns other than was good for health care. We do not want to continue that process.

Instead of repeatedly promising projects that may never be realized, we are committed to a staged approval process that sees projects moving through three clear levels of approval. First, projects are approved in principle if they reflect community needs and the strategic direction of the RHA and the provincial health care system. Then more detailed planning begins. Next, the memorandum of understanding is reached between the RHA and the Government, clearing the way for working drawings, final estimates and other fine details. The final step is approval to proceed to tendering and construction.

No project will reach this stage unless it continues to be relevant and vital. The six projects I described earlier have cleared this final hurdle. Over the next several weeks we will be announcing to RHAs the status of all projects in the capital plan. I have spoken to CEOs and communicated the process. As projects move through this process Manitoba Health will be working with the RHAs to constantly re-eval uate proposals in the context of Manitoba's changing health care needs.

We will be looking at whether a proposal still reflects the best way to deliver services to the community, whether it fits in with the province-wide strategy for development of the health care system, whether it has a strong business case, how well it stacks up against other projects competing for funding and whether it is affordable and practical in the context of the Government's current financial position.

4400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 These are reasonable and fair questions to ask of any expenditure of public money. In fact, it is our job to ask these questions. Another challenge is to face the need to strike a good balance between starting new projects and maintaining our existing facilities. These routine repairs may not have the headline-grabbing appeal of new projects, but they are absolutely essential. That is why we made an important improvement to the capital planning process. We are now committed to a long-term recurring allocation of funds for ongoing maintenance.

Every year a substantial portion of the capital budget will be earmarked for repairs to existing buildings and infrastructure before capital planning begins. This year $20 million of the health capital budget was set aside for this important maintenance work. It is a good way of ensuring that our existing assets are not allowed to crumble away. We are getting on with the job of building for the future in health care in an orderly and planned way that makes the best use of resources and ensures that capital construction fits with the long-term delivery of services.

The investment this government is making into Health capital construction this year is comparable to that made in previous years. We are also fixing the process so that it is more balanced, flexible and realistic. We will be working with Health authorities to build for the future in a way that is responsible and delivers the best possible services to the people of Manitoba. Thank you. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to thank the Minister for his statement.

Certainly, a number of times in Estimates we have been asking for this information to be tabled and the full detailed plan for capital construction. We have not been able to have that information forthcoming at a time when we are in Estimates and it gives the Health critic a valid opportunity to ask the questions. It is interesting to note. We certainly do have a dialysis problem in this province. There is an increasing need for dialysis patients, but we also happen to have a shortage of trained staff.

It is wonderful to talk about opening new units, but unless you can have the staff to adequately work in those units it makes for an interesting announcement. We are also looking at the biggest nursing shortage we have seen in this province in a long time. Over II 00 nurses- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We certainly are seeing the biggest nursing shortage we have seen in a long time. When we left government, there were 600 vacancies in the province. There are now over II 00. * (13 :40) Mr.

Speaker, we also know that dialysis patients are being transferred to Kenora for treatment. The announcement also indicates that St. Boniface General Hospital is about to begin upgrades that will resolve serious deficiencies in obstetrical space. There are I7 beds sitting vacant right now at the women's centre. They are LDRP beds that have been waiting for some response from this government for several months now. Seventeen beds for women to come in and have their babies. These beds have been available; staff are trained.

The information we have is that all they are waiting for is $300,000 from this govern ment to address some electrical and other issues. These beds have been sitting vacant for some time now, and what it is doing is creating a situation that is putting mothers at risk. Mr. Speaker, we are seeing anti-partum moms being kept at home in the community when they should be in the hospital, but because those beds are not open these anti-pa rtum moms are being left at home and at risk.

We are seeing postpartum moms being sent home too early because of the need for beds at the women's centre, including one mother who had to go home early when in fact she had to leave twins in the hospital. She was sent home far too soon for a mother that has just had twins and then had to have the inconvenience of coming back. Mr. Speaker, there have been a lot of broken health care promises made by this minister: the hiring of IOO full- time nurses, the opening of

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4401 100 full-time beds, the end of hallway medicine, when we are still seeing patients in the hallway. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Charleswood has the floor. Mrs. Driedger: While the Government may sit and clap about hallway medicine, it still exists. In fact, Dr. Ralph Wong from St. Boniface General Hospital asks why his patients routinely wait in emergency longer than 24 hours in order to be admitted, including one cancer patient who waited 72 hours before admission.

They have not ended hallway medicine by a long shot, despite the unequivocal black and white promise that hallway medicine would end the beginning of April. It has not ended. I will end my comments by also indicating there were a lot of commitments to construction, including that of the Misericordia, 180 beds; Tabor Home, Morden; Salem Home, Winkler; Emerson. This minister certainly does need to address whether or not we are going to be seeing all previous approved projects now discontinued. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Driedger: In waiting for the tabling of the capital plan, we look forward to seeing a five year plan. This particular minister has been pretty adamant over the last number of years that what he would like to see is the tabling of a five year plan. So I am anticipating that is what he is going to bring forward and maintain the past commitments that were made to health care. * (13:45) There are a lot of challenges in health care, and we look forward to seeing some of them resolved, including what we understand to be a wait of over 10 000 people waiting right now for ultrasound.

That has doubled under this govern ment. With those comments- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the co operation of all honourable members. The Honourable Member for Charleswood was just wrapping up. Order, please. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I will wrap up by indicating the waiting lists for ultrasound are up; in fact, they have doubled, CT scans are up and bone scans are up. The only one that has come down in this past year is MRis, due largely to the fact that we had put an MRI machine in at St. Boniface Hospital.

So we do await the positive things that could happen in health care, but right now what we are seeing are broken health care promises by this minister and this government. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would once again ask co operation from all honourable members. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the Minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? [Agre ed] Mr. Gerrard: I am pleased to hear the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) outline his six capital projects that were announced today.

I am glad to hear that the Minister recognized that there was a need for improved capital planning in the health care area. I look forward to watching the results of his process and seeing in fact if it is effective and if it works better than what we had before. I am also encouraged that the Health Minister has in his capital planning some ongoing maintenance as part of the overall effort for capital planning. I look forward to seeing how this works in the future over the next several years.

The investment that is announced today in dialysis, I note with interest, clearly it is important, but I would urge the health care minister to work very hard on the early treatment of kidney disease, because indeed in prevention and in very early treatment we can very considerably prolong the period before people need dialysis and improve the lifestyle, the

4402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 quality of care and indeed the cost of health care. So this is an important area to emphasize as well. I note that there are still significant waiting lists in many areas, and I look forward to the Health Minister's report on an ongoing basis and progress in this area. * (13: 50) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today Win Gardner who is accompanied by Shannon, Carla and Erin Trail from Victoria, British Columbia, who are the guests of the Honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Public Schools Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, almost 100 municipalities, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Federation oflndependent Business and three-q uarters of all the school divisions across Manitoba have joined forces to condemn Bill 42. In spite of the Education Minister's claim to have an extensive consultation process, it is clear that Manitobans do not want this bill to go through. Mr. Speaker, given that his colleague the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) appears to be withdrawing her legislation, will this Minister of Education follow her lead and withdraw Bill 42? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I appreciate the Member's question, and I must say that the fearmongering undertaken by the Member is quite prodigious in the pr ovince. We have numerous examples of this sort of thing occurring in this legislation and others, but the facts are that the explosion in property taxation that took place during the 1990s is directly linked to the massive offloading of multimillions of dollars in the public school system, and we on this side of the House will not entertain that sort of explosion again. Amendments-Impact on Property Taxes Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister offer Manitobans any guarantee that property taxes will not increase when Bill 42 goes through? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it has given me a lot of pleasure in the past to read into the record the year after year multimillion dollar cuts to the public school system that the members opposite offered up to the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba during the 1990s.

I am tempted to do it again, because it illustrates very clearly the lack of direction and in fact the real attack the members opposite undertook on the public school system. So I will guarantee that this government will not implement budgets which, year after year, pull multimillion dollars out of the public school system. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, how can this minister continue to talk about the past when we are living in the present?

Can this minister deny that almost 1 00 municipalities, the Manitoba Cham ber of Commerce, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and three-quarters of all the school divisions across this province are fearmongering because they are afraid of what is going to be happening to the taxpayers when Bill 42 goes through? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I certainly under stand the concerns of municipal officials and school trustees, of the public on this particular matter. Mr. Speaker, I certainly understand the concerns. I was a municipal official myself and understand local taxation issues very well.

I understand very well, when the Province takes $30 million out of the public school system, that local property taxpayers are incumbent to put $30 million in. I am aware that when the provincial government takes $20 million out of the public school system, local taxpayers are re sponsible for putting $20 million more in.

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4403 I am well aware that year after year of multimillion dollar cuts perpetrated on the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba by the members opposite led to an explosion in property taxation in the province of Manitoba to historic levels. We will not, on this watch, see such an explosion again. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): We have seen by the legislative agenda that has been introduced by this government that the union bosses are indeed writing their legislative package and developing the economic policy for this government. We have moved back to the Dark Ages. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition has the floor. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The business community has expressed very legitimate concerns about Bill 44 and how regressive it is and what it is going to do to the economy of the province of Manitoba. We all know that business is the economic engine that drives prosperity in our province. * (13: 55) Can the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) today indicate clearly to the business community that the union boss legislation that has been developed and introduced in this House will be withdrawn by her government? Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): am glad that the Interim Leader of the Of ficial Opposition asked that question because it provides me with the opportunity to straighten out, on the record, for the people of Manitoba an incorrect inference or an incorrect statement that was first put on the record earlier by the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) that we have any intention whatsoever of withdrawing Bill 44. There is nothing that is further from our minds. Mr. Speaker, I think that the Interim Leader of the Official Opposition should check with the Member for Tuxedo (Mr.

Filmon) bef ore she references a return to the Dark Ages, when the majority of the changes in Bill 44 are a return to the first eight years of the former government, are a return to the labour legislation of Sterling Lyon and Duff Roblin. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is clear that the ideological hidebound decisions and policy decisions, legislative decisions, made by this government and introduced by this government are a slap in the face to the business community and to workers in Manitoba.

Now that the Minister of Labour has indicated clearly that she will not listen to the business community, the community that drives the economy in this province, will she at least have some consideration for the workers in the province who will lose their democratic right to a secret ballot as a result of their legislation? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, we introduced Bill 44, I believe it was three weeks ago in the Legislature. We are prepared to send it to committee to hear from the people of Manitoba at that time. To this date, no one from the Opposition has spoken a word in debate on Bill 44.

If they are so interested in getting it into committee and getting the people of Manitoba to speak on this piece of legislation, which we are interested in doing, then they will pass it into committee as soon as possible so we can listen to the people of Manitoba. Amendments Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, we see a minister who brought in a piece of legislation in the last days of the session, or what they thought might be the last days of the session, without including it in their election promises, without including it in the Throne Speech, without talking to the business community about it. I ask the Minister of Labour: How can she honestly sit here and say that we should be debating a piece of legislation that has only been on the table for a few weeks and the business community was not even informed? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, the Interim Leader of the Official

4404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 Opposition should not need any lessons in how a Legislature operates, but I wiii share with her the fact that once a bill has been introduced for second reading, and I spoke on this piece of legislation and said in my speech we were prepared to listen to the Opposition and prepared to take it to committee, once that happened, the Opposition has had upwards of three weeks now to debate the legislation in second reading. It does not require an inordinate amount of time.

Most of the elements in Bill 44, far from being "ideological hidebound decisions," from the Interim Leader's earlier question, are elements that were found in the "ideological hidebound decisions" of Sterling Lyon, Douglas Campbell and the Member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). Labour Relations Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): In the last 24 hours, this government has received more than 300 faxes from members of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

In the letter it states: Much of this legislation has been developed without any consultation with small and medium-siz ed business and has serious negative implications. And they say, "Biii 44 must be withdrawn." I ask the Minister of Labour: Do the honourable thing, Minister, and withdraw Bi1144. * (14:00) Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, there were consultations. The Labour Management Review Committee had the issues that were raised that are found in Bill 44.

What we are looking for is some debate in the Legislature on second reading; we have seen not a single member of the Opposition get up and speak on this piece of legislation. Failing that, if they do not have anything to say in debate, then let us send it to committee so we can hear from the people of Manitoba. Mr. Schuler: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister if she has read today's Free Press, where it says: "The NDP Government might be ready to backtrack on its proposed labour law changes." I ask the Minister, among others calling for her to withdraw it, do the right thing, Minister, and withdraw Bill 44. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, what we have said in this House and in public is that we want to put every piece of legislation, and in particular Bill 44, the amendments to The Labour Relations Act, to committee so we can hear from the public, unlike the former government who did not even listen to the Labour Management Review Committee in 1996 when they came up with some very hard-thought, compromised consensus positions, not one of which found its way into Bill 26. Unlike the former government, we want to keep an open mind and listen to all of the presentations.

Unfortunately, the people of Manitoba are not being given an opportunity to make their views heard at committee, because the Opposition will not debate it and send it on to committee. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this Minister of Labour if she read the LMRC letter that was sent to her that says that there may be a potential risk to the provincial economy. I ask this Minister: Will the Minister do what is best for Manitoba and withdraw Bill 44, and do it right away? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba is unique among provincial jurisdictions in Canada in that we require public hearings for every single piece of legislation that goes before this Legislature. We on this side of the House expect to listen. Unlike the members of the former government, we will listen to the productive suggestions that come from the people of Manitoba, to the concerns that people have about the Bill, to the things that people think are a positive statement in Bill 44. We are prepared to listen to the people of Manitoba, and I beg the Opposition to debate this piece of legislation.

Do the right thing and send it to committee. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Picket Line Violence Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, one of the foundations of our society is

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4405 our unified condemnation of violence in all its forms. Now, within Bill 44, we have a clause forcing employers to reinstate employees who, during a strike, committed violent or criminal acts. would ask the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen): What kind of signal is her government sending to Manitobans by forcing employers to reinstate these employees? I would ask the Deputy Premier to answer that. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I think it is reprehensible, absolutely reprehensible for the members to put on record today, as they did yesterday, the concept of forcing. There is nowhere in Bill 44 in

section 12(2) that forces an employer to rehire an employee after a strike or lockout. What this

section in Bill 44 is going to do is to return the legislation back to those "ideological hidebound" years of the former Premier. the current member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). It says the Labour Board has the authority to look at all of the facts of a situation that occurred on a strike or a lockout line, and the Labour Board will determine whether an employee should be reinstated. In cases where the Criminal Code has been violated, the Criminal Code and other civil and legal avenues are certainly available, as they have been, Mr. Speaker, from 1976 to 1996.

This is exactly the same wording of the legislation that was good enough for Sterling Lyon and Gary Filmon. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech made a commitment to create safer workplaces. This was a Throne Speech that neglected to mention this legislation. I would ask the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) to reconcile the forcing of employers to reinstate these employees with the comments made in the Throne Speech. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that the Member has spoken out about safer workplaces, because we are very proud of the fact that in this new budget, our budget that was presented this spring, we were able to hire and are in the final process of hiring eight workplace safety and health inspectors. So I am very glad that the Member recognizes that positive move on the part of the Government of Manitoba. Again, as I stated earlier, Mr. Speaker, there is no forcing of any employer to hire back any employee. The Labour Board looks at the situation and makes a determination.

I might add that since 1973 there has been one incident that went to the Labour Board under the former legislation. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would again ask the Deputy Premier if she does not understand, by amending

section 12(2) of The Labour Relations Act, that the Government will be encouraging instances of picket line violence. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, obviously the Member did not listen to my answer to the previous two questions. I will reiterate. There is no forcing an employer to rehire anyone after a strike or lockout. The Labour Board, should there be an issue, will look at all the facts and make a determination. The criminal justice system is still in play. Other civil and legal elements are still in play. It is the same legislation that was good enough for Sterling Lyon and the Member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon).

It certainly should be good enough for the Member for Minnedosa. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Binding Arbitration Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Minister of Labour to focus her attention on what is the most, I believe, significant change that she is bringing about, one that was changed by the Filmon administration in the early 1990s because it did not represent a balance or fairness, and that is what she is now proposing which is compulsory binding arbitra tion to settle strikes after 60 days but only compulsory if the union chooses, not if it is asked for, requested by the employer. * (14:10 ) I would like to ask the Minister today, given that she is bringing in a mechanism that has different triggers for employers versus employ ees, if she could provide us the names today of

4406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 all of the business organizations who called for that particular change. Ron. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, the Labour Management Review Committee recognized the fact, as have most Manitobans, that, in the decade of the 1990s, 29 work stoppages or strikes or lockouts lasted for over 60 days. In two instances, they lasted well over a year. In one instance, they lasted almost two years.

This has led, in just those strikes and lockouts, to a situation where we in the province of Manitoba, management, business, workers, the taxpayers, the society as a whole, families, lost 635 000-plus days to strikes and lockouts lasting over 60 days. We do not believe that that is what we should be doing. We believe that Bill 44 will provide a balanced approach to labour relations, will strengthen labour relations for all of the people in Manitoba. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I have to ask the Minister, if she really believes what she is telling Manitobans, why then in this bill did she not make this mechanism available to employers to call upon without having a veto by the unionized employees? Why is the trigger for the union to use the mechanism different than the trigger for the employers? Why is she inconsistent? If she really cares about ending strikes or walkouts, why is it not equally compulsory if the employer requests it? Where is the balance, Madam Minister? Ms.

Barrett: I would like to acknowledge and thank the Member for Lac du Bonnet for his implicit support for the concept of an alternate dispute resolution mechanism, which is what we are talking about here. There are many issues, particularly in regard to the alternate dispute resolution mechanism, that are very complicated, that require a great deal of discussion and dialogue.

I would like to ask the Opposition once again to engage in that debate, to raise the issues, to speak to the issues in the Legislative Assembly, not in the 30 seconds available for either questions or answers in Question Period, but actually debate the Bill and send it to committee, so we can have a reasoned public discussion about these issues. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, this MLA has always supported balance, not imbalance as the Minister of Labour has brought in in this legislation.

I would like to ask the Minister of Labour: Does she not believe that if she really, really wanted to bring in balance, as she said, that any mechanism that was really intended to reduce days lost to strikes or lockouts would be equally applicable to both employer and employee? Does she not believe that if an employer wanted to use this, even if the union did not, they should also have the right to invoke this without it being vetoed by someone else? Where is the balance, Madam Minister? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad, once again, that the Member has agreed that this piece of legislation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Praznik: The Minister may have no answer to the question about balance because it is not balanced, and she will not admit that. So rather than just dealing with the issue. she tries to imply that this member somehow supports her unbalanced, one-sided proposal. I want to say very clearly on the record, as an MLA and as a former minister of Labour, I always supported balanced mechanisms that both sides could access.

That is not what she has here, and I can assure her that this MLA will not be voting for this one-sided mechanism to appease her friends in the leadership of the labour movement. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I think it is very unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that on an alleged point of order, a member gets up, abuses the point of order, the whole foundation of that, its role in the Assembly, to get up and make a speech on the matter that is the subject of the question. I ask that you call the Member to order, remind him

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4407 that is not a point of order. He cited no rule, no citation whatsoever. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order, with new information. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on the Member's point of order, Beauchesne's 417 : "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Speaker, if the Minister is going to put false information on the record, she is going to provoke debate in this House.

And when this minister decides she wants to be the House Leader and start calling bills in this House, all she has to do is tell the House Leader today to step aside, and I am sure he will, and then she can call the orders for this House, and she can decide when we are going to debate the Bill. But until she becomes the House Leader, she should sit there and do the job she has been designated to, and that is the Minister of Labour. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, the Honourable Member does not have a point of order.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind the House about the purpose of points of order. A point of order is to be used to draw to the Speaker's attention any departure from the rules or practices of the House or to raise concerns about unparliamentary language. A point of order should not be used to ask a question, to dispute the accuracy of facts, to clarify remarks which have been misquoted or misunderstood, to move a motion, to raise a point of order on a point of order. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. *** Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do hope I get more than two words out before I am called on again, but if the Member is saying what I heard him say, that he is in favour of balanced labour legislation, then he will support Bill 44. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Question Period is a time to share information, and it is very, very dif ficult to hear the questions and to hear the answers. I would ask once again the co-operation of all honourable members. Sustainable Development Act Procurement Guidelines Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh), a minister known for his tough talk toward those who break the laws of Manitoba. It has become quite apparent that members of his own government have broken provincial laws by failing to deliver a sustainable develop ment procurement policy by July 1, by failing to have a complete Sustainable Development Strategy by July 1, by failing to call a meeting of the Round Table on Sustainable Development in more than one year. I ask the Minister of Justice what he is doing to address the lawbreakers in his own govern ment. * (14 :20) Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr.

Speaker, I rose to answer this question from the Member for River Heights because for quite a while now in this Chamber the Member has continually stood up to proclaim that The Sustainable Development Act has been broken. Almost every day he gets up and he says you have broken the law because certain conditions have not been met. Well, I would like to advise the Member that there are six provisions in the Act that are time bound. Four of them have to do with the future. I mean, you know, what can I do about that? All I can do is plan to meet those deadlines that are for the future.

Two provisions have to do with the July 1 deadline, and that is what the Member keeps referring to. Mr. Spea ker, on June 26, I presented our government's implementation plan for sus tainable development in Manitoba.

4408 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh): When it is quite clear under the statutes that the July I deadline was not met for presenting the procurement policy, I ask the Minister why does he employ a double standard. Why is he ready to fine individuals $500 when they do not pick up their mail in five days, yet not carry through on admonishing these colleagues to obey the laws of this province? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, once again, I would like to advise the Member here is the strategy that I presented to the Chamber on June 26.

He keeps saying that we have broken the law, but here is the strategy that we presented to the House on June 26. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Darren Praznik (Deputy Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I believe the document the Member has quoted should be tabled if he is going to refer to it in any way before the House, unless in fact it has been made public. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Praznik: Is it a public document? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the Opposition has not been listening, but it is my understanding, in advice to me, that particular document was in fact ta bled. It was made available to all members of the House and, as well, I believe the Minister again has advised the House that the document has been tabled. It is already the property of the Legislature. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, he does not have a point of order. Beauchesne's cites unless it is a private letter, then that would have to be tabled. * * * Mr.

Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Minister of Justice: Since it is quite clear that the requirements of The Sustainable Development Act were not met, I wonder why the Minister is so lax when it comes to members of his own government and yet so tough on ordinary citizens who do not pick up their mail within five days. Mr. Lathlin: For example, the Act states that the Lieutenant-Governor -in-Council shall, with in two years after the coming into force of this act, establish a Sustainable Development Strategy for Manitoba. We have done that.

The Minister shall cause sustainability indicators to be established within three years after coming into force. We will do that. The Minister shall cause a sustainability report to be prepared, based on sustainability indicators, within four years after their establishment. We will meet those deadlines again. The Member talks about the procurement strategy. Cabinet shall, within two years of the coming into force of the Act, establish sus tainable development procurement guidelines. We will table those guidelines in the fall. Two years, we have two years. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Justification Mr.

Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, back to business. History proves that trying to make the poor rich by making the rich poor has never worked, so a return to the days of Howard Pawley should not be the Government's goal since Manitoba's economy hit rock bottom with Pawley at the helm. Why has the Minister of Labour gone against her leader's campaign promises to have a good relationship with business and to keep what the former government got right by returning Manitoba to the ineptitude of the Pawley era? Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): First we had "ideological hidebound decisions" and "back to the Dark Ages" as descriptors for legislation that was on the books and worked very well through . the Duff Roblin era, the Sterling Lyon era and the Gary Filmon era. Now we have another comment from the Opposition.

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4409 Mr. Speaker, Bill 44 is designed to restore balance. The majority of the proposals that found their way into Bill 44 reflect partial or complete consensus on the part of the Labour Management Review Committee. What we would very much like to do, and I think the people of Manitoba would very much like to have us do as legislators, is to debate the Bill in the House in second reading and then take that bill to public hearings so we can hear and listen to all sides of this issue, these very complicated issues. Is that too much to ask, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, "balance" is a new term. We found out in Estimates that there is negative balance and positive balance. Does the Minister expect to go forward in today's world by going backwards to one of the darkest parts of Manitoba's economic history? Is that negative balance? Ms. Barrett: I will not go back to the dark days of 1992 and 1993 in this province. I will not go back to the acute protracted restraint of the Sterling Lyon era.

These measures in Bill 44 are designed to restore the balance that was present in the labour relations climate through the years of Duff Roblin, Howard Pawley, Sterling Lyon and Gary Filmon. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, it is the year 2000 and we still want to know: Does the Minister of Labour support the union bosses who want their lives made easier, or hardworking Manitobans who want their democratic rights and freedoms to a secret ballot? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, we believe that Bill 44 is a balanced, reasonable approach to labour relations that will strengthen the free collective bargaining process in the province of Manitoba, will strengthen the economy and will make Manitoba a more positive place for people who are currently here, those workers and their families who are currently here, those employers and their families who are currently here and employers who may be considering coming to the province of Manitoba.

We believe this is a very positive, forward-looking piece of legis- lation and would like to get the public's input through public committee hearings, if we could get the Opposition on side on that. Workplace Safety and Health Act Amendments Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, it is now very clear that no soul in the business community is safe from this NDP Government's assault against small-business people and entrepreneurs. In addition to Bill 44, there is now talk even more destructive legislation is about to be introduced. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to quote from the newsletter from the CFIB which says, in reference to the Minister: The Minister has indicated that she is considering making directors of corporations criminally liable for offences under The Workplace Safety and Health Act in cases where due diligence is not used. [interjection} And the Minister, from her seat, says, oh, how horrible. I want to ask this minister whether she will confirm when she will be introducing this legislation, as company headquarters in Manitoba will need some warning time in order to move their head quarters. * (14:30) Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that the Member would suggest that people should not be liable for situations that they have knowingly brought about or knowingly not ameliorated when they had the opportunity. From their seats, over the last few weeks, the members have spoken up very loudly on behalf of "workers' rights." All we are going to be doing in this legislation, which has not been tabled in the House yet but will be in due course, is to ensure that workers' health and welfare is protected.

In those very, very, very few instances where directors of corporations are proven to have been liable, either through acts of omission or acts of commission, when they should have known better and did nothing, we think that is only fair and balanced for all of the people of Manitoba,

44 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 most particularly the workers. Workers and employers should be happy that there is good, solid workplace safety legislation in this prov ince. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister if she can explain how many jobs this legislation change, which she is planning, will cost Manitoba, or does she even care? Ms.

Barrett: I would just like to ask the Member if he is seriously conside ring the fact that we should go back to Westray, that we should go back to Poulin's, that we should go back to the salt mines, that we should go back into conditions in mines where they had to have canaries to go into the mine ahead of the workers to find out when there were poisonous gases. Mr. Speaker, it is unconscion able that this member is, for a moment, suggesting that we are not concerned with workers' rights and lives.

If one worker's life is saved or one worker's quality of life is protected through this piece of legislation that will require people who should know, or should have known, or should have done something and did not, were criminally negligent, they will be charged, as they legitimately should be. We are in favour of pro tecting the health and well-being of our Manitoba workers, and that can only be good fo r all Manitobans. I am appalled at his comm ents in this regard. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, there is not a single member in this Legislature who is not concerned about the rights of workers in this province.

This is draconian legislation that this minister is looking at. I want to ask the Minister how she and her government will compen sate fo r the vast decrease in tax revenue when the corporate sector leaves the province due to a punitive change made by this NDP Government. Ms. Barrett: I would like to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if the Opposition's economic strategy is to bring Third World economic conditions, working conditions, to the province of Manitoba, then they need to look only into the mirror as to why they lost the election. We are concerned about workers' safety and health.

This legislation will only address those situations where directors can be proven to be criminally negligent in what they did do or criminally negligent in what they did not do that they should have known. We refuse to be part of a government that will allow a Westray or a Poulin's to happen in this province. Mr. Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Amateur Golf Championship Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I want all members of the Legislature to know, and to hopefully share the pride that I share when I learned that a constituent of mine captured the Manitoba Amateur Golf Championship on the weekend. I would like to congratulate Kevin Kotyk, a 17 -year-old student at River East Collegia te fo r his well-deserved victory at the Pinawa Golf Course. I have had the opportunity to watch Kevin grow up in our community and be involved in our local community club, and I ju st want to indicate how very proud we are in River East constituency of his accompl ishments.

Kevin joins a very noteworthy group of Manitoba amateur champions. His name now joins nota ble fo rmer champions such as Terry Hashimoto, Rob McMillan, Todd Fanning and Glen Hnatiuk. With his victory, Kevin became one of the youngest Manitoba Amateur Golf Champions ever. Kevin will now be representing Manitoba in the Canadian Amateur Championship held next week in Edmonton. Congratulations to him and the other golf ers who will make up Team Manitoba. I am sure that they will proudly represent our province very well. Thank you. Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): Mr.

Speaker, this past week I had the opportunity to attend the opening ceremonies of the 37th annual Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition in Morris, Manitoba.

July 25, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 441 1 This fo ur-day event attracts over 30 000 visitors to Morris. The afternoon I attended the Morris Stampede there were visitors from all over the world in the stands with me that afternoon, including visitors from Hol land, England, New Zealand and South Africa. It is impor tant to remember this agricultural fair emphasizes the day-to-day excellence achieved by Manitoba farmers and thri lls audiences with bareback riding, saddle bronc, steer wrestling, barrel racing, chariot and chuckwagon races.

Over the years, this stampede has been an impor tant venue to showcase the best of agricul ture, fo od and rural hospitality in Manitoba. It provides a vehicle to promote agriculture in this area, as well as celebrate achievements in 4-H, youth, and related sectors. The stampede provides exposure fo r Morris and southern Manitoba as a progre ssive centre of agricultural activity and its importance in the local economy is well understood, as demon strated by the large contingent of dedicated vol unteers from the many communities surrounding Morris.

Manitoba Agriculture and Food works closely with the Valley Agricultural Socie ty to support new initiatives, and the provincial agricultural society program provides funding fo r innova tive pro jects that demon strate signifi cant industry benefits and promotes agricultural commodities produced in Manitoba. On behalf of the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), I congr atulate the Valley Agri cultural Soci ety fo r over a century of work in this area, and the Morris Stampede organizers fo r showcasing agriculture in Manitoba. * (14: 40) Western Canadian Blind Golf Championship Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, on Monday I had the honour of attending the opening of the Western Canadian Blind Golf Championship. The day started with an early morning breakfast at the Kingswood Golf and Country Club, at which I brought greetings on behalf of the Morris constituency. Following the opening breakfast, I was challenged to try my hand at blind golfing. With a blindfold over my eyes I took a couple of swings, actually hitting the ball, but in entirely the wrong direction. The experience illustrated to me ju st how challenging the sport must be to the blind.

It is indeed an accomplishment fo r those who are able to overcome their handicap to excel at this endeavour. The Western Canadian Blind Golf Championship is a very special event, and I want to thank all of those involved fo r bringing the tournament here. Participants from a number of different countries including Japan, Ireland and Canada took part. On behalf of all members of this Chamber, I want to congratulate the golf ers on their great efforts and the organizers and volunteers who made it happen, and a great big thank you to the Charleswood- Tuxedo Lions Club who were the lead sponsors of the tournament.

Last Post Fund Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to talk about the Last Post Fund I attended on July 16 , 2000. It was really an impressive ceremony. What happened was there was a columbarium that was dedicated on behalf of those people who served as veterans in the war or served in our armed fo rces in peacetime. It was very impor tant because we owe so much to our veterans who through their devotion to duty gave us the liberty and freedom we now enjoy as Canadians.

They have given us the lead, and they have served across the world and done a lot in wartime and peacetime that we can all be thankful fo r and our country can be thankful fo r. This structure that was dedicated on that day will stand as a fitting tribute to their valour and sacrifice. It is also important that as they passed to their final reward, we ensure they are laid to rest with honour, respect and dignity, providing fo r them in death what they fo ught to give us in life.

I commend the board of the Manitoba Branch of the Last Post Fund, Larson Memorials and a lot of people who gave of their time, the vol unteers and those who worked towards this final proj ect being finished. I am certain that this compassion, the dedication and the comm itment that they showed to this proj ect will really help

44 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 the friends and families and the history of Manitoba which we all can appreciate. Thank you very, very much fo r all of those people who helped on this valuable proj ect. St. Cyril and Methodius Church Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today, and it was my pleasure to attend the Mass and picnic last Sunday, July 23 , celebrating the designation of Gimli's St. Cyril and Methodius Church as a heritage site. St. Cyril and Methodius Church was constructed in 19 04 by Gimli's first Polish homesteaders.

The church still stands today on its original site loca ted west of Gimli on Highway 23 1. The original log structure burned to the ground and was rebuilt in 19 09. The second church, struck by lightning in 1917 was rebuilt in 19 21 with volunteer labour. This effo rt was a testament to the dedication and determination of the people of the surroun ding communities. So, too, was the effort to preserve this important part of Gimli's heritage. Paul Artyshko, his wife Grace and Joannie Bartmanovich fo rmed the St. Cyril and Methodius Church Heritage Incorporated in order to salvage and preserve the landmark building.

I want to congratulate them fo r their effo rt and their vision. I also congratulate all those who helped them to ensure that the St. Cyril and Methodius Church became a heritage site. So I commend, therefore, their efforts to protect and preserve this impor tant part of Gimli's and Manitoba's history. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Committee Changes Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the Ho nourable Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, July 26, 10 a.m., be amended as fo llows: Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) fo r For t Garry (Mrs.

Smith); Sou thdale (Mr. Reimer) fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach); Morris (Mr. Pitura) fo r Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou); and Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) fo r Springfield (Mr. Schuler). Motion agreed to. Mr. Dyck: I move, seconded by the Honou rable Member fo r Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources, July 26, 10 a.m., be amended as fo llows: Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns); Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) fo r Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou); Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) fo r Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner); and Steinbach (Mr.

Jim Penner) fo r Southdale (Mr. Reimer). Motion agreed to. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member fo r Wellington (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Com mittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as fo llows: Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) fo r Riel (Ms. Asper). Motion agreed to. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member fo r Wellington (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments fo r Wednesday, July 26, at 10 a.m., be amended as fo llows: St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) fo r Brandon East (Mr.

Caldwell); Lord Roberts (Ms. McGiffo rd) fo r Inkster (Ms. Barrett); Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) fo r Riel (Ms. Asper); Wellington (Mr. Santos) fo r St. Vital (Ms. Allan); Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonof

f) fo r Transcona (Mr. Reid); Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) fo r Brandon West (Mr. Smith); La Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux) fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise, in addition to the bills previously referred to the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Commi ttee fo r July 26, at 10 a.m., that the fo llowing bills will also be conside red: Bills 29 and 37.

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 44 13 Mr. Speaker: It has been advised that, in addition to the bills previously referred to the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Comm ittee fo r July 26, at 10 a.m., that the fo llowing biils wiii also be considered: Biils 29 and 37. [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (1 4:50 ) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr.

Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Wiii the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 254 wiii resume consid eration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. When the Commi ttee last sat, it had been considering items on page 43 of the Estimates book, 12. 4.(f)

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($95,000). Shall the line pass? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Chairperson, before we start passing all the lines, I have just one question. Some people might think it is laughable, but some of my constituents are taking it very seriously. We have got a problem with Thompson turkeys, the crows and the ravens that are getting very strong in our area. A constituent phoned me this morning and asked me the question if they are on an endangered list, or a no-shoot-'em, or are they allowed to kiii them within the city limits? They are really becoming pests.

They are eating all the eggs from the local songbirds, and we would like to find a way or a mechanism of removing them and also the wild turkeys. We have probably got a herd of over 300 and 400 in my community right now, and it is becoming a problem. I am ju st wondering if the Minister could give me a hint on how to get rid of both the Thompson turkeys or the crows and the wild turkeys. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr. Chairman, I am given to understand that the crow and the raven are actually not on the endangered list.

However, if these birds are on your own private property, in order to protect your property, I understand that you are free to scare them away. It is apparently all right to dispose of them if they are on your property and they are damaging your property. Mr. Chairperson: 12 .4.(f)

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($95,000} -pass. 12. 4.(

g) Land Mapping Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $496,500 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $240,20 0-pass. Resolution 12 .4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,990,200 fo r Cons ervation, Land Information Centre, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. 12 .5. Environmen tal Stewardship (

a) Sala ries and Employee Benefits $2,343 ,000-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $764,000 -pass; (

c) Grant Assistance $83,5 00-pass. Resolution 12 .5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,1 90,500 fo r Conservation, Environmen tal Stewardship, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 I. Resolution agreed to. * (1 5: 00) 12 .6. Environmental Management (

a) En vironme ntal Operations ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,0 1 2,600-pass;

(2) Other

44 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 Expenditures $1 ,507,8 00-pass;

(3) Grant Assis tance $900-pass. 6.(

b) Environmental Management

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,523,9 00- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 ,93 3,000-pass. 6.(

c) Clean Environment Commission

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $292,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 77,200 -pass. Resolution 12 .6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 0,447,400 fo r Conservation, Environmental Management, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 I. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 12 .7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,14 5,900 fo r Conservation, International Institute for Sustainable Development, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 200 I. Resolution agreed to. 12 .8. Infrastructure and Minor Capital Proj ects (

a) Equipment $460,600 -pass; (

b) Water Proj ects $4,565,4 00-pass; (

c) Park Facilities $4,1 89,3 00-pass; (

d) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives. Resolution 12.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,2 15 ,300 for Conser vation, Infrastructure and Minor Capital Projects, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 200 I. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 12 .9: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,4 1 8,700 fo r Conservation, Amortization of Capital Assets, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 I . Resolution agreed to. 12. 10 . Flood Proofing Programs, Capital Grants $1 2,685, 600-pass; Infrastructure $1 7,078,200.

Shall the line pass? Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The infrastructure here deals primarily with the dikes. Does this fo r the flooding? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, that is the flood proofing, what is being done on community ring dikes, et cetera. Mr. Gerrard: I note with pleasure that there has been some progress and that the dike, fo r example, in Rosenort seems now to be proceeding. But I wonder if you can tell me of the I think it was 13 dikes that were planned: How many of those are now underway and how many are still yet to come? Mr.

Latblin: I do not have that information right at my fingertips, but I would propose to the Member that we gave a report not that long ago, I believe. We gave a progress status fo r each pro ject. I would like to propose to the Member that I would do the same thing this time round and give him the information as soon as I can. Mr. Gerrard: Can the Minister inf orm the Comm ittee when he expects to have all the proj ects completed? Mr. Latblin: The time frame fo r these is completion fo r 2003 . It is a five-year program. Mr.

Gerrard: Because of the situation, in particular in southwestern Manitoba, where it is not only dikes but other irrigation and drainage measures which are of particular impor tance, I wonder if the Minister has any alloc ation fo r drainage or irrigation or water management infrastructure in southwestern Manitoba. Mr. Latblin: This program which we have ju st finished talking about is fo r the Red River Valley. There is no money earmarked at this time, I think, fo r southwest Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the Minister fo r his clarification.

I am curious, given the circum stances in southwestern Manitoba, the fact that we are significantly behind, fo r example, Saskatchewan and Alberta on irrigation infrastructure, and that there is a need clearly in a number of areas fo r drainage and water management on an improved basis in south western Manitoba, whether the Minister, if not -

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 44 15 any funds allo cated, has feasibility studies, other studies underway which would lead toward the potential for such infrastructure investments in the future. Mr. Lathlin: The short answer to that question is that there are no funds earmarked fo r irrigation pro jects fo r southwestern Manitoba at this time. Mr. Gerrard: There have been, out of the Red River Valley flood, some circumstances, and I remember flooding around Lake Manitoba, the Dauphin River circumstance.

There was some discussion at the time in terms of infrastructure which relates to prevention of floodin g, not only along the Red River Valley, but there, because, of course, as one changes the outflow from the Assiniboine into Lake Manitoba, you have the potential to flood communities downstream. * (15:10 ) I wonder if there are any plans or dol lars earmarked fo r flood infrastructure, water management infrastructure, along the corridor from the Assiniboine to the Portage diversion, up to Lake Manitoba and in the outflow toward Lake Winnipeg. Mr.

Lathlin: Currently, there are no funds earmarked fo r any programming fo r that part of the province, on Lake Manitoba and Lake Dauphin. Mr. Gerrard: One other area that there are concerns about in relationship to the-it is in the Red River waterway-would be in the R.M. of La Broquerie where there has been a lot of concern in changes in water management which have led to increase runof f and water problems. For example, in the recent heavy rains, we saw significant water damage and water problems in the R.M. of La Broquerie.

I am ju st wondering if there are any plans at this poin t, or funds allocated in terms of water management infrastructure in the R.M. of La Broquerie. Mr. Lathlin: Maybe I could start of f by advising the Member that, as he knows, we ju st passed in comm ittee the Water Rights bill, which would go a long way to alleviate some of the prob lems. I think that, during the hearings process, we advised the public and also the Comm ittee that we are also gearing up fo r a more comprehensive water management review for all of Manitoba, not just southern Manitoba.

I have only been here a short time, but it has become very clear to me that there is un contro lled drainage work, protecting your land, and so fo rth, runof f water in the spring, and also the rain. Everyone does their part, I guess, to protect their property. I would probably do the same thing too. The net effect of that uncont rolled drainage work is that people are negatively impacted downstream.

I look at Lake Manitoba, fo r example, I was there visiting the Fairford First Nation not that long ago, and those people cannot even dig graves when they have funerals because as soon as they go two feet into the ground, water comes up. But they have had that problem ever since some drainage work was done on the south basin of Lake Manitoba. Just the other day, I met with a group who are planning to further put a pipe into Lake Manitoba. Of course, what that will do is it will ju st exacerbate Fairford First Nation's already real bad water situation.

So that is what happens when there is uncontro lled drainage work all over the place. Our efforts will be fo cussed this coming fall towards trying to come up with a more balanced approach to water management. The com munities the Member talks about will more than likely be part of the consultation process. Indeed we are meeting some of those communities right now. Apparently a study was being done fo r Rat River and so fo rth, but nothing has been made definitive yet.

So I look fo rward to the consultation process that we are putting in place fo r the fall to determine what is the best policy that we can come up with in order to manage water, whether it is ground water or surface water, potable water. I should also mention to the Member that I was up north last weekend. I am telling you, it is bone dry up in those rivers and lakes up north. Then I come down here and people are crying because there is too much water. But I think I have become familiar or made to understand why there is such a vast difference between

44 16 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 water levels, say, at Clearwater Lake, Cormorant Lake, compared to down south. In other parts of the province and in the country it is too dry. In some parts of the country it is too wet. Then there are even those, learned people, prof essional people, who predict that in time we are going to be short of potable water. So we have a big, big job ahead of us. Mr.

Chairperson: $1 7,078,200-pass. 12. 10 Inf rastructure Resolution 12 .10 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $29,763,800 fo r Conservation, Flood Proofing Programs, fo r the fiscal year ending the 3 1st day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered fo r the Estimates of the Department of Conservation is item 12.1 (

a) Minister's Salary. At this point we request that the Minister's staff leave the table fo r the consideration of this item. 12 .1. Admini stration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $27,300. Shall the line pass? Mr. Gerrard: Just a couple of questions. would like to fo llow up some of the discussion yesterday which related to the Minister's plans fo r creeks like Sturgeon Creek, which appear to have had contamination by E. coli. When we are dealing with creeks which come into the city of Winnipeg, the situation may be a little dif fe rent fr om creeks other places, but, nevertheless, they need to be taken clearly with some seriousness. I just wondered what your planning approach was fo r creeks like Sturgeon Creek. * (15: 20) Mr.

Lathlin: As I advised the Member yesterday, we are currently taking samples strategically along the river. In other words, there is a sample being taken at a certain point on the river, and then downstream we are taking another sample. Then it is a process of elim ination, I guess. If we do not find anything here, then we move on. Where we might find a concentration of whatever the contaminants are, then I think it will be easier to determine what the root cause of the contamination is. So fa r, maybe there is a report on my desk right now, but as of this morning I had not received a report yet.

We are looking at whether the contaminants come fr om the run-off fr om the land into the river. I mean, I was saying to our people in the Department, that, you know, fo r me, any river that goes through the city of Winnipeg is pretty vulnerable. There are all kinds of contaminants that could enter the river system, even coming close to the city of Winnipeg, but once you are in the city of Winnipeg the river is pretty vulnerable. So we are looking at that. We are treating it very seriously. As soon as we can determine what the real cause of the problem is then we can fo rmalize a plan of action. Mr.

Gerrard: Were there any other of creeks and streams similarly with a big spike in the E. coli levels? Mr. Lathlin: There are no other streams or rivers or creeks. I can advise the Member that some of these investigations that we are doing are initiated, like, we go in there and if we find something that does not look right we investigate. Some of them tum out to be okay. In some cases we have had to, as a precautionary measure, we have asked people to boil water. In some cases, in camping grounds we have actually shut of f the well so that people do not drink water fr om there.

But so far we have not had a major, major problem. I think the main reason we are doing that is to make sure that we do not run into the same problems as were experienced in the province of Onta rio in Walkerton. People are very, very aware of what happened in Onta rio. so therefore any little thing that is there, people want to investigate, because we do not want to go through the same thing here in Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: I would just add I was out at Sturgeon Creek this morning. One of the local residents was saying that the condition of Sturgeon Creek in his memory going back 40

July 25, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 44 17 years had never been this bad in terms of the problem that exists at the moment. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, as a matter of fa ct, I think in the case of Sturgeon Creek, how we became aware of the problem there is from people phoning our of fices and letting us know and our going there to investigate. But I recall a while back, even in The Pas, there is a place called Bracken Dam. I do not know if the Member is aware of it. It is Bracken Dam. It is a dam across Birch River, which goes into Carrot River. Carrot River of course is a tributary of the Saskatchewan River.

Anyway, right at the dam we had fo und just tons and tons of dead fish one summer. When the conservation of ficers were alerted and started investigating, the results of their investigation showed that because there was no oxygen left, the fish died. One of the initial causes that our people look at is lack of oxygen, but, no, not that I am aware of as I am sitting here, there are no other rivers and streams that might have that problem. Mr. Gerrard: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: 12. 1(

a) Minister's Salary $27,300-pass. Resolution 12 .1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,3 80,100 fo r Conservation, Admini stration and Fi nance, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. This concludes the Estimates fo r the Department of Con servation. Is it the will of the Committee to recess fo r the next round of Estimates for Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs? [Agre ed] The Committee recessed at 3:26p .m. The Committee resumed at 3:31 p.m. ABORIGINAL AND NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs in Room 254. When the Committee last sat, it had been considering item 19 .2.(g)( 1) on page 24 of the Estimates book. Item 19 .2. Aboriginal and Northern Af fairs Opera tions (

g) Agreements Management and Co-ordination

(1) Salaries and Employee Bene fits $7 12,1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 74,400-pass;

(3) Northern Flood Agreement $1, 355 ,000-pass. 2.(

h) Aboriginal Af fairs Secretariat

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $450,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $228,700-pass;

(3) Aboriginal Development Programs $2,003,600- pass;

(4) Aboriginal Economic and Resource Development Fund $1, 000,000-pass;

(5) Partners for Careers $200,000-pass. 2.(

j) Communities Economic Development Fund $1 ,500,200-pass. Resolution 19 .2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 9,592,700 for Aboriginal and Northern Aff airs, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. 19 .3. Capital Grants (

a) Northern Communities $2,379,600-pass; (

b) Community Access and Resource Roads $235,000-pass; (

c) Less: Recoverable fr om Capital Initiatives. Resolution 19 .3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,61 4,600 for Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs, Capital Grants, for the fiscal year ending the 3 1 st of March, 2001.

44 18 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 Resolution agreed to. Resolution 19 .4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 35, 000 fo r Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs, Amortization of Capital Assets, fo r the fiscal year ending the 3 I st day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered fo r the Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs is item 19.1 .(

a) Minister's Salary. At this point, we request that the Minister's staff leave the table fo r the con sideration of this item. I 9. l .(

a) Minister's Salary $27,300-pass. Resolution I 9. I: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $873 ,900 fo r Aboriginal and Northern Aff airs, Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs Executive, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March. 2001 . Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Depart ment of Aboriginal and Northern Aff airs. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates of the department of Status of Women. Shall we briefly recess to allow the Minister and her critic to have the opportunity to prepare fo r the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [Agre ed] The Committee recessed at 3:38 p.m. The Committee res umed at 3:44 p.m. STATUS OF WOMEN Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the department of Status of Women. Does the Honourable Minister responsible fo r Status of Women have an opening statement? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Yes, Mr. Chair, I do. Today, I am pleased to have the opportunity to present the Estimates fo r the Department of the Status of Women fo r the fiscal year 2000- 2001. The Status of Women includes the Manitoba Women's Directorate and the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council.

I will speak first of the activities of the Women's Directorate and then to those of the Advisory Council. The Women's Directorate works within government to infl uence government decision making through research support, policy development and evaluation of government programs, policies and legislation, in order to determine their impact on women.

It also interacts with various departments of government, the business sector, the community and fe deral-provincial territorial ministries of the Status of Women, to raise awareness of the reality of women's lives and to ensure that the diff erential impact of proposed programs and services, employment practices or other initiatives is considered. To fo cus its activities and to support government priorities. the Directorate has developed five goals that represent its priority areas over the next five years.

These goals are: to enhance the capacity fo r Manitoba women to attain economic self -sufficiency and/or eco nomic security, to fo ster awareness and fu rther enhance the Government of Manitoba's ef f orts to provide a violence-free environment fo r women and children, to raise awareness of women's health issues and advocate fo r the recognition of women's needs in public health policy, to fac ilit ate opportunities that promote positive and strategic directions fo r youth, to educate government decision makers about the potential dif f erential impacts of government policies and programs.

Now I am going to address each of these issues.

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 44 19 Economic self -sufficiency and/or economic security. One key to women's empowerment in today's society is, of course, the ability to use a computer and to be able to access the Internet. Almost two thirds of the jobs in Manitoba today require basic computer literacy. As a result, computer literacy is fa st becoming a requirement fo r employability; yet, many adult women are not computer literate. If women are to participate fu lly in today's technology-oriented workplace, they need encouragement and support. There are fo ur initiatives to meet these needs.

The Women's Directorate has developed a basic computer training program for women with the support of the Employment and Training Services Branch of Manitoba Education and Training. Power Up aims to maximize women's employment opportunities through knowledge of computers and the Internet. Addressing skill shortages by providing flexible education and training options is a priority concern shared by Manitoba business and government. Power Up teaches basic word processing and Internet access to women across Manitoba in 15 hours of training over a 5-week period.

Over 4200 women have registered fo r the program since March of 19 99, and to date more than 2300 have completed their training. Trade Up to Your Future. This is a pre employment trades training program for women developed in partnership with Manitoba Education and Training Employment and Training Services Branch, Tech Voc High School and the Allia nce of Manuf acturers and Exporters.

This program off ers five months of shops training, upgrading classes and workplace readiness, fo llowed by thirty weeks of workplace experience, preparing women for entry to apprenticeship programs in high-skill, high demand jobs. The first pilot project began in September of 19 99 and a second is planned fo r September of 2000. We are very pleased with the success of this program. Most women are fu lly employed in their chosen fiel ds-welding, machining and electrical work-in fu ll -time permanent jobs. The Directorate recognizes that today's youth, and fe male youth in particular, fa ce unique challenges.

While progress has been made in many areas, much remains to be done to assist the next generation of women to achieve fu ll equality with their male counterparts, including economic equality. With a view to encouraging young women in their teens to begin thinking about financial security, the Directorate has developed Invest in Yourself . This incorporates an inf ormation booklet, which of f ers advice on creating a secure financial fo undation. It is intended to be used with a curriculum guide that will soon be of f ered in high school consumer math programs.

Phases two and three of this initiative will include discussions with Education and Training program development to include the material and other courses of study and of f ering the program to organizations which work with and of fe r programs fo r girls.

I might add parenthetically, that this is one of the first things that I worked on when I was appointed mini ster, and I was very pleased to do that with the Directorate. * (15:5 0) A STEP student has been hired to make presentations to girls in middle schools on the importance of continuing studies in math and science, plus keeping open the doors to a broad spectrum of training and career choices. The Training fo r Tomorrow Scholarship Awards Program.

This program gives 50 $1 ,000- scholarships each year to women entering 2-year diploma programs in math, science and tech nology courses at the province's community colleges. To date, 24 1 scholarships have been awarded, and tracking of graduates shows that over 90 percent of recipients are employed in training related jobs. Women are increasingly seeking self employment. Community and economic de velopment are priorities fo r this government. Toward that end, in the budget speech, Minister Selin ger announced the TEAM program.

This pilot project to promote microenterprise development in northern areas will include a distinct component to ensure women's partici pation in the TEAM project. The Women's Directorate will be working with of ficials fr om the Community Economic Development Fund

4420 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 and Aboriginal and Northern Af f airs to develop this aspect of the program. To support women in their own business, the Women's Directorate has developed a mentor ship program fo r business women. The program off ers women an opportunity to interact with other business owners who of fe r guidance in developing and maintaining viable businesses.

The Directorate has also produced a quick ref erence fo r women entrepreneurs which describes programs and services available through the provincial government fo r those women interested in starting their own businesses. This booklet is available in govern ment of fices across the province. Together with colleagues across the country, Status of Women ministries are developing a strategic fr amework on women's economic security and independence to help guide the work of our mini stries. The Women's Directorate has taken an active role in this fe deral, provincial and territorial initiative.

Our second major goal is to fo ster awareness and fu rther enhance the Government of Manitoba's efforts to provide a violence-free environment for women and children. The Directorate works to promote a strong co ordinated approach to public policy development and stra tegies to address violence against women. Toward this end, the Directorate partners with fe deral-provincial-territorial counterparts to promote and share strategies that of fe r support to victims and provide a strong system response. Most recently, the national fo cus has been on the important area of prevention.

The Directorate helped to develop a strategic fr amework to prevent violence against women, which was released jointly by ministers responsible fo r the Status of Women. Its purpose was to establish common goals, principles and directions to guide policy and program development. Locally, the Directorate participates in interdepartmental committees that deal with violence issues such as the Family Violence Court steering committee and the domestic violence and stalking protection, prevention and consequential amendments act development committee.

It also sits on the interdepartmental committee on fam ily violence prevention, chaired by the fam ily violence prevention program and the change of identity in lif e threatening situations committee. The Direct orate co-chairs with a community representative the domestic violence community committee. Most recently, the Directorate conducted a gender-inclusive analysis of the victims' bill of rights legislation to help ensure that it contemplates the circumstances of women victims as well as males since women are more likely than males to be criminally victimized by someone they know.

Neighbourhoods Alive !, a new initiative recently announced by our government, is a long-term community-based development stra tegy which will provide community organi zations with the support they need to build their neighbourhoods. It will fo cus on housing, employment and trammg, education and recreation, as well as safety and crime prevention. The Directorate's Keeping Safe at Work campaign will support Neighbourhoods Alive ! by contributing to preventing criminal victimization of women in the workplace or on their way to and fr om work.

The campaign was developed in partnership with CIBC, the RCMP police and Winnipeg Police Service. The Directorate has partnered with Workplace Safe ty and Health and Justice to address the sizeable demand fo r Keeping Safe sessions within the next year. Our third goal is to fac ilit ate opportunities that promote positive and strategic directions fo r youth. While more young women are completing high school and entering universities and colleges than ever bef ore, not all of their endeavours are positive.

Young women as a group are alarmingly inactive, and they represent the only group in Canadian society where smoking is on the increase. The Take the Challenge initiative launched by the Women's Directorate fo cusses on promoting healthy and positive directions fo r young women. It includes encouraging young women to stay physically active, develop healthy eating habits, stay in school and make their educational choices fo r

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 442 1 themselves, which will in tum lead to their economic independence. Initiatives include Do It For You in which a university student made presentations on active living, disease prevention and body images to elementary and middle schools throughout Winnipeg. One thousand girls between the ages of ten and seventeen participated in the discussion and completed a survey examining their physical activity patterns.

Do It For You was so successf ul that the Directorate is now working with the Recreation and W ellness Promotion Branch in the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism to expand the initiative to include a much wider rural and northern component fo r the spring of 2000. To raise awareness of the importance of recreation and physical activity and the barriers to participation which fa ce young girls, the Directorate, in partnership with the Recreation and Wellness Promotion Branch, introduced Speak Up.

This initiative consists of a speakers bureau composed of Manitoba women fr om various backgrounds and occupations recruited to act as ambassadors to carry the message and includes strategies to overcome barriers. One strategy, promoted by the speakers bureau and the Directorate is On the Move, a non-competitive, alternative physical activity model emphasizing fu n, social skill building and recreational activities.

Together with the Recreation and Wellness Promotion Branch and the Manitoba Fitness Council, the Directorate has created opportunities in several communities fo r young girls to participate in the program. The Canadian Association fo r the Advancement of Women in Sport fu nded several pi lot projects. Fourth goal: To raise the awareness of women's health issues and advocate fo r public health policy which recognizes women's needs in public health policy. Health care is our biggest challenge in government, and Manitoba's highest priority.

The Directorate has been actively involved in working with Manitoba Health to raise awareness within government of women's lives and women's unique role in the delivery of health care, both regarding their fam ilies and the community. In our ef fo rts to address the shortage of nurses, we are very aware that too often women provide supportive care to their loved ones at the bedside and in nursing homes. Long term, this work can have an impact on the health of the caregivers themselves. As well, women's health care must be understood and included in health care delivery.

Towards this end, the Directorate and Manitoba Health have been developing a province-wide women's health strategy. Recently, the Directorate undertook to present a day-long training session to rural health authority staf f, highl ighting the importance of incorporating a gendered perspective into the community health needs assessments. The Directorate has also partnered with the Manitoba Clinic to develop programs fo r women's health. The Maximizing Osteoporosis Management in Manitoba project, known as MOM, works to improve the osteoporosis care fo r women who have the highest risk of developing this disease.

The Lily [phonetic] Women's Learning Centre will be a state-of-the art women's learning centre in Winnip eg, designed to provide counsell ing, literature, audio-visual aids and Internet services. Its purpose is to assist women in learning about their own health. Ultimately, Learning Centre staff will travel to locations around the province, making presentations and sharing inf ormation with women outside Winnipeg.

The Directorate serves on the steering committee fo r both of these projects. * (16: 00) Fift h goal: To educate government decision makers about the potential dif f erential impacts of government actions. As part of its mandate to promote women's equal participation in society and the workplace and to inf orm government with regard to policy development, the Direc torate, by means of a gender-inclusive analysis, seeks to identif y the dif fe rential impacts on women of government legis lation policies and programs.

Gender-inclusive analysis respects and appreciates diversity among women and recognizes the dif fe rent roles, lif e experiences, economic and social circumstances fac ing women and men.

4422 LEGISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 The Beijing Pl atf orm fo r Action and the Beiji ng Declaration developed at the Fourth World Conf erence on Women in 19 95 strongly emphasized the importance of gender-inclusive analysis in developing public policy and pro grams. The Women's Directorate has developed a training program to assist government program developers and policy makers in implementing a gender-inclusive analysis. To date, the Direc torate has of fered both general and group specific training.

As well, the Directorate has analyzed key legislation such as the important victims' bill of rights in order to ensure that it reflects the circumstances of women. Government's record: Our government is committed to fur thering women's progress to full equality, economic, social and legal equality within our society, as well as the work and initiatives undertaken by the Women's Direc torate. We are advancing because of initiatives in other departments such as Family Services' Building Independence program and the increased fund ing to aid victims of violence.

Building Independence will help women move fr om social assistance to the labour fo rce and participate in their communities. This program will provide people with the tools they need to achieve their goals. The program includes a new work incentive which increases the earning exemption to $115 and includes an additional 25 percent of net monthly earnings beyond the basic exemption. We believe that this positive approach is an excellent way to help women achieve economic independence. In this spirit, we will begin July 1 to pass the increase in the National Child Benefit to fa milies on social assistance.

Another key to the achievement of economic independence is access to aff ordable, quality child care. To this end, this government has implemented the unit fu nding model to help centres generate equitable revenue fo r all fu nded child care fa cilities. One important fe ature of this approach is ena bling centres to increase salaries to child care workers, thereby addressing the problem of low wages and attracting additional workers.

We have increased the number of child care spaces to 20 000 and subsidized spaces to a total of 11 000, fo r a total budget figure of $62.9 mill ion fo r this fiscal year, an increase of $9. 1 milli on. The Healthy Child Initiative will provide $13 mil lion fo r services such as parent-child centres, prenatal and early childhood nutrition, all of which contribute to the well-being of women and their fa milies.

In November, 19 99, my colleagues, the Honourable Tim Sale, the Honourable Gord Mackintosh, and I announced $424,000 in increased fu nding to community-based domestic violence prevention services and women's shelters. This year's budget includes a 2% increase to salaries fo r all positions in shelters, women's resource centres and second-stage housing programs and a 2% increase in vacation pay benefits. Manitoba Justice has hired fo ur new Crown attorneys, and will be hiring more specialized Justice staff , fo r example, probation officers and victim and witness support persons.

The purpose is to ensure swifter responses. The increase of $75 in the property tax credit and the new lower income tax rates fo r low-income fa milies will leave more money in the pockets of Manitobans and remove 15 000 low-income fam ilies fr om the tax rolls. These measures will be of particular value to women, especially those single-parent fam ilies headed by women and struggling with poverty. As we move fo rward in our mandate, this government will continue to demonstrate our dedication to making Manitoba a thriving community in which all of us can live, work and raise our fa milies.

I now have a fe w remarks to make about the work of the Manitoba Advisory Council. The Manitoba Women's Advisory Council is the other branch within the Status of Women. Its role is to be an arm's length advisory body to government on issues of concern to women and to their fa milies. The council's work to enhance the status of Manitoba women is accomplished by promoting women's equal participation in society and fac il itating change in economic, legal and social structures. -

July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4423 This has been a transitional year fo r the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, as a new chairperson was appointed in January of this year. Kim Cla re, presently the Director and Associate Prof essor of the Inner City Social Work Program, Winnipeg Education Centre, brings to council a wealth of knowledge in the educational and social science fields. Keith Louise Fulton, Associate Prof essor of English and Co-ordinator of Women's Studies at the University of Winnipeg, was appointed as a council member at the same time.

Both of these women are educators, strong fe minists and have made extensive contribution to the lives and rights of women. Under new leadership, the Council is working on the development of a strategic plan and evaluating its fu ture direction. Currently, the Advisory Council is comprised of 14 govern ment-appointed members-pardon me, 15 , we just appointed an additional person-who are representative of Manitoba's diverse population base and geographic distribution. Council's work fo cusses on improving the lives, welf are and status of women.

There are five major areas where council concentrates its eff orts on behalf of women: first, council fac il itates the building of ef f ective and collaborative partnerships among women, community organizations and government departments; second, council assists in better educating the community on research and issues that af fe ct the fo rmation of public policy which has an impact on women and their fa milies; third, council provides recommendations to government in support of the development of gender-sensitive policies and legislation; fo ur, council serves as a clearing house to provincial communities by sharing inf ormation on events, resources, and programs of interest to women; five, council fu nctions as a storefront operation that provides administrative support to not-for profit women's organizations and acts as a referral base to women seeking help with problems.

Council has worked dil igently over the past year to accomplish these work goals, and in doing so, to better the lives of women.

Council fac ilit ated the building of eff ective and col laborative partnerships among women, com- munity groups and government by liaising with over 400 individuals and organizations, continuing to do outreach to all regions of the province, attending over 87 community events, workshops and conf erences, participating on several multidiscipl inary steering committees and public awareness campaigns, maintaining a mailing list of over 2000 individuals and organizations, sharing best practices and inf ormation on issues of common concern with the provincial and territorial coalition of women's advisory councils, and particip ating in national conf erences to learn and gain a national perspective on issues.

For example, council initiated and is hosting a meeting of the provincial and territorial women's advisory councils and other provincial counterparts working to enhance the status of women. This will be held on September 17 and 18 , 2000, in conjunction with the Women's World March 2000. The purpose of the meeting is to share best practices and develop a national agenda on issues of concern to women. * (16:10 ) Council has also undertaken work to educate the public better on the issues and research developments aff ecting the fo rmation of public policy.

Last year, council organized Lunch and Learn, community inf ormal presentations held monthly, which have drawn 20 to 60 participants per session. Topics include: Herb Gardening fo r Better Health; Walking fo r Better Health; Paying Yourself First-Essential Financial Tips; Girls as Victims in Perpetrators of Violence; The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection and Compensation and Consequential Amendments Acts; Midwif ery; A Model of Female Leadership; Changes in Child Care, Gender Bias, and Employment Insurance. Council has also of f ered community-based informa tional workshops.

The second annual senior living well workshop, held over the lunch hour and fe aturing presentations on the proper use of medications, the art and role of storytell ing and physical fitness as a benefit of fo lk dancing, is one example. It was attended by 40 participants. Council provided inf ormation and made recommendations to government on a variety of

4424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 issues identified by the community as areas of concern. This was accomplished by giving voice to women's concerns and fo cussing on community liaison and outreach to women in Manitoba. As a result, the Council's priority issues are adolescent women, fo r example, issues like teen pregnancy, child care, the economic status of women. For example, the Council has been very interested in the GPI , and, of course, interested in poverty, vio lence against women, women's health and wellness.

Council's work has also fo cussed on the fo llowing: Aboriginal women's issues, Beyond Beijing, consultation with rural women, human rights, public policy, senior women's issues, sexism in the media, the sexual explo itation of children, single parenting, women and the ju stice system, women's education and training needs, women's health and wellness, women who experience multiple disadvantages.

Some of the services provided last year by the Council in its role as the provincial clearing house or informa tional resource to the com munity include the publication and distribution of a resource guide called Parent ing on Your Own: A Handbook for One Parent Families, the provision of a weekly Did You Know Facts, and e-mail on information and community events of interest to women sent to approximately 200 community members, the pro vision of sponsor ships to individuals of low income to attend informational sessions and community events of interest to women.

It also provided sponsors with nutritional breaks and tables at all events and provided informat ional resour ces. The Council provided expertise and consultation as well as partici pation on planning comm ittees fo r community driven events and a one-stop library resource with Internet accessible to the public. Fifthly, the Council has worked to ensure maximum access fo r individual women and women's organizations. Council operated as a storefront operation by providing administrative support to women's not-for-profit organizations, acting as a referral base accessed by hundreds of women.

The Council has expanded its work on these five ma jor areas to include some new initiatives: the expansion of its consultative role and the recognitiOn of the contributions of women to the quality of life in Manitoba. Council has undertaken a number of ground breaking initiatives. For example, the annual sunrise breakfast to mark the anniversary date of the Montreal massacre attended, by the way, by over 15 0 people this year.

In col laboration with government departments, community members and service providers and non-profit organi zations, the Council has worked and continues to work on the fo llowing: a public awareness campaign on domestic violence that resulted in the development of TV spots, tracking the impact of health reform on women's health, a public awareness campaign on teen pregnancy that resulted in the development of a TV ad campaign, a child care regulatory review process, the planning of a symposium on the economic status of women in partnership with the Women's Directorate, public development on harassment and abuse in sports, a national children's agenda, policy development to address the sexual explo itation of children that resulted in the presentation of a report to the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), the development of a centre fo r excellence fo r children's well-being, the development of a Web site to interconnect agencies working with women's business owners, the plight of incarcerated women. To recognize the contribu tions that Manitobans, particularly women, have made to their communities, the Council has undertaken to enco urage and support the nomi nation of women fo r prestigious awards. It has also sponsored the events and a number of women to attend them. Council successfully nomin ated two winners, Youth fo r Christ and Penny Roy of St.

Pierre Jolys fo r the Manitoba Justice Crime Prevention Awards. As far as future directions, the Council will continue to work with the community on issues of concern to women and their families by prov iding recommendations to government to support the development of gender-sensitive policies in legisla tion, public education on research and issues affecting women, infor mational sessions and events of interest to women, consultation expertise and participation on planning commit tees fo r community events of interest to women, support services to -

July 25, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4425 individuals and non-profit women's organi zations, inf ormation and referral services to women accessing Council's of fice fo r assistance, a weekly fax and e-mail list of inf ormation and upcoming events to women's organizations and interested community members and a one-stop lib rary resource and Internet access to the public. After another productive year, the Council looks fo rward to the challenge of improving the status of Manitoba women by advising govern ment on issues of concern to women.

Particip ating in the women's community, the Council will continue to play and key role in the advancement of women's equality. In conclusion, I am proud of both the Women's Directorate and the Women's Advisory Council. They have worked ef f ectively to bring inf ormation to Manitoba women and to inf orm government on women's issues of concern. I know both departments will continue to work towards the goal of ensuring equal opportunities and equal participation fo r all Manitoba women. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister responsible fo r the Status of Women for those comments.

Does the of ficial opposition critic, the Member fo r Seine River, have any opening comments? Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Yes, Mr. Chair. I just want to make a fe w general comments. I do not have a lengthy fo rmal presentation to read. I was given to understand that we had very limited time in this

section to be able to affo rd other departments an opportunity to pass their Estimates. I would pref er that we do move into some direct questioning. I recognize that the Minister in her opening remarks identified the six main goals of the Manitoba Women's Directorate as outlined on page 3 of the Supplementary Inf ormation on the Status of Women. Although the wording was changed somewhat, I believe that the intent is still the same and comparable to the six main goals as outlined on page 3. I will be asking some questions relative to that.

I also want to commend the Women's Directorate fo r the good work that they continue to do and look fo rward to learning more about the specific initiatives, some of which the Minister outlined in her opening comments, some of which I have no inf ormation on at all, and look fo rward to receiving. Mr. Chairperson: We will just move right into the Estimates of the Status of Women. On page 13 6 of the Main Estimates book, Resolution 22.1 Status of Women (

a) Manitoba Women's Advisory Council

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 77,300. Will all the staf f come fo rward, please. We will ask the Minister to introduce the staff. Ms. McGifford: I would like to introduce the staf f fr om the Women's Directorate. Fi rst of all, to my immediate left Theresa Harvey Pruden, who is the ADM fo r the Status of Women and also fr om the Women's Directorate. With her is Ruth Mitchell fr om the Women's Directorate. Seated beside Ruth is Sue Barnsley, who is the Executive Director of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council.

Seated beside Sue, in the blue, is Kim Clare, who is the chair of the Advisory Council. * (1 6:20) Mr. Chair, I wonder if at this time I might ask the critic if she wishes to go through the Estimates line by line or what process she wishes to fo llow, because it could affe ct staff as well as her and me. Mrs. Dacquay: I do have some general questions. I could def er asking them, but I do want to do some line-by-line questioning of specifically some of the dif f erences in amounts year over year.

I wanted to ask some questions relative to, I guess, both the Advisory Council and the Women's Directorate, but I believe both are represented here. Is that correct? Ms. McGifford: Yes, we have people both from the Directorate and fr om the Advisory Council. It was just merely a question of process to see if anything was more accommodating to the critic. Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the Com mittee just to go line by line, or have a global discussion?

4426 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 Mrs. Dacquay: I think the Minister has indicated there would be some latitude and flexibility allowable. So if I am asking a question in an inappropriate place, I would be prepared to move my question to a more appropriate line, but I think we can start initially with the lines. I am conscious of the time as well. My colleague has critic responsibilities in the Chamber, and she has some questions that she also wishes to ask. So I will start and ask a couple of questions, and then I will def er to the Member fo r Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). Ms.

McGifford: The strategy outlined by the Member fo r Seine River is fine with us. Mrs. Dacquay: I understand that your line by line is going to start with 22.1. ( a). Mr. Chairperson: That is correct. Yes. Mrs. Dacquay: I will start with my questioning relative to that first line identified in the Budget, the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. My question is there is a very slight increase year over year. I assum e that is fo r statutory increases there, and could I please have a breakdown of the number of employees and their respective positions? Ms.

McGifford: Well, I understand that there is an increase in the managerial staf f and that is due to merit increases. The Executive Director is the managerial position and the prof essional technical position would be the policy analyst and then there are 1. 75, as the Member can see, administrative support people in the Department. So there are 3. 75 people in the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Remarkable con sidering the work they do. Mrs. Dacquay: Yes, that indeed is com mendable that 3. 75 staf f years can fu lfil the responsibilities of this department.

Can the Minister please tell me, I know Sue is the Director, who has the policy analyst position, and who holds the administrative support position? Ms. McGifford: Yes, of course I can answer that question. The policy analyst is Betty Nordrum who has recently changed her last name to Betty Nordrum-Owen. The two administrative assistants are Norma Jean Cigla r, who is a SW-005, and Linda Saelens, who is an SW-004. As I indicated earlier, the Chairperson is Kim Clare who is with us today. Mrs.

Dacquay: I am wondering now if the Minister would be flexible enough to allow my colleague fr om Fort Garry to ask questions. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that would be fine with us. Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Madam Minister, I appreciate being able to intercede, and I am delighted to meet the ladies fr om this council. It is wonderfu l to see women so active in government aff airs. I did have a question fo r you, because on my recent conf erence to Prince Edward Island there were a couple of members from the opposite side of the House there and one member in particular made a couple of comments.

I just wanted to see if it was a comment made by an individual who maybe spoke out of turn or maybe someone reflecting a policy statement. I doubted it was, but I wanted to bring it up because the comment was made. We were sitting around a table with people fr om all across Canada, Madam Minister, and one of the colleagues made the statement that quoted some Bible verses and then said that he was conf used because men ruled over women and turned to my colleague and said women are taking over things if we let them.

Now we just sort of looked at each other and I turned to him and I said I beg your pardon, and that was about the end of the conversation. But seeing as this is the Status of Women, I was sitting there at a national conf erence where representation was made fr om a member fr om the opposite side of the House and these comments were made, and I fe lt as a woman, these comments were actually made on public record. I do not have a copy of it as of yet, but it will arrive. I thought that the Minister would be interested in the comment.

What I need to clarify is: Is this a reflection of an ambiance, a new policy, or was it just some careless words that were said? I was quite taken aback. I believe, as I am sure you do, that women and men are equal -

July 25, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4427 and do equal jobs in the business world and certainly in the Government. I thought it was inappropriate for such comments to be made any place, let alone at a na tional conf erence. So people sort of looked at each other and raised eyebrows, but I thought it was inappropriate. Could the Minister please comment on this? * (16: 30) Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I will comment very briefly. I think I have been talking at some length about the work that the Women's Directorate do and the work that the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council do.

I think I have been indicating that both departments are committed to the equal and full participation of women in our society, and I think I talked about commitment in the economic sphere, in the domestic sphere, in the social sphere. I do want to assure the Member fo r Fort Garry that I have been personally active in the women's movement for too many years than I wish to remember because it just seems to go on and on. No matter how much work one does, there is always more work to do. So I do want to assure her of my

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-67
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 67.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8a1e6b6d981b88ffba4f9e1a2eb5610bccf9e459

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