Manitoba Hansard — 14 May 1985 (Sitting 48B, 32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-48b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 14 May, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are considering Item No. 1.(b)

(1) Administration and Finance, Executive Support: Salaries and Wages, 1.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures -Mr. Minist er. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Before supper, the Member for Swan River asked some questions about the sewage and water system tenders from last year. I said I would find out what the low tenderer's name was, it was N. D. Gunn Limited, and his tender price was $1,194,386.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I'd like to ask the Minister what . discussions he has had with his colleagues regarding the concern that has been expressed from many in northern communities regarding the quality of education and the problems that many of the people are running into when they graduate from high school, come into the city to take trade school training and then find out that they are set back to Grade 10 standard and have to take a couple of years upgrading before they can get into their courses.

These kinds of situations have been brought to my attention, not only on a recent tour I had with my colleagues through some of the northern communities, but other residents have expressed concern about the lack of quality education in many of the northern schools, and I'm wondering, as the Minister of Northern Affairs, whether he has dealt with this question, whether it's been brought to his attention and whether he has had any input into dealing with this concern. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: In our travels throughout the province, we have had some of the areas express a concern about the quality of education being delivered by Frontier Schools and yet in other communities they are very pleased with the quality of education that is being delivered. The Minister of Education has recently made some changes to make it possible for greater community participation, and I think since that has happened there has been more parental involvement, and I think it has already resulted in some improvement In the quality of education .

I know in the area of Grand Rapids, a couple of years ago, there were some concerns that the children coming through the school system did not have a suitable quality of education to participate in technical training that is required. I know that there have been improvements in that area, so now they are putting out graduates who can move on to training with Manitoba Hydro.

I guess there is also, In local controlled schools as well - I know in the area of Easterville, there seemed to be some concern with the community on the quality of education being delivered, and in a particular case the Director of Education was let go and there's been a new Director of Education hired with that school system and I believe that there is going to be an improvement there.

There's a need there for co operation between the council and the band, because the community is not large enough to support two school systems. lt cannot really support one entire educational system from kindergarten to Grade 12; there just aren't enough students in those areas. I think we have to be aware that in most of these small communities, there aren't enough students In order to offer the number of choices that people would like to see . You just can't do it when the students aren't there.

The Minister of Education has received some comments that the quality of education was lacking, and I believe that she is prepared to have a good look at the quality and see if it can be improved in any areas. MR. D. GOURLAY: In spite of the Minister's answer, Mr.

Chairman, most of the problems appear to be coming from the larger centres in the North, where there are a goodly number of students and good facilities -I don't know whether this is the situation the Minister Is running into, bu1 the questions that brought it to my attention have been coming from those areas where surprisingly, there are larger centres and they do have good facilities. However, I am pleased to hear that this Minister has had discussions with the Minister of Education.

They are aware that there is a problem in the northern communities, and of course it has been expressed to some degree throughout the province from time to time and from location to location. Moving on to another area, some of the northern communities have indicated to me that recently they have been allocated funding for var1ous projects in the community, sort of short-term projects to create jobs. In some cases they say that they will have to wait until after April 1st to get funding; in other cases, this was not indicated to me.

Was there a situation where some funds would otherwise have lapsed In the department and have been converted into say, the Jobs Fund, or whatever fund to provide some kind of funding for various communities for projects of various natures? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there were several communities who received funding under the Northern Community Assets Projects and they were running into problems because of when the construction season was starting, that they could not complete it by the end of the fiscal year. So we have made some changes in the program this year where we're allowing the funding to continue.

They will be going through the fiscal year so the program won't be coming to an end, I believe it's at the end of June. So it gives the communities more time to complete their projects because the way it was set up before, if you had to be completed by March 31st because of the severe 1961

TuadaJ, 14 ... ,. 1915 winter conditions, especially when there was some outside construction necessary that they could not get started - they were running into a time problem, so that's why we extended it to the end or June. MR. D. GOURLAY: So this money was through the Commu nity Assets Program under the Jobs Fund? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. D. GOURLAY: And was there a situation where money that otherwise may · have lapsed within the department was diverted into the Jobs Fund? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No. They are separate . MR. D.

GOURLAY: This money was all budge ted for that pur pose originally and for other reasons or whatever, the projects were delayed? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's right. it's two different projects. The Community Assets projects are different than the ones that are through Northern Affairs, Capital projects. MR. D. GOURLAY: With the block funding that the Mini ster indicated in his opening remarks now going to several commu nities, this has changed the format to some degree with respect to training of clerks.

I understand that clerks in those communi ties that are getting block funding are being provided with extra advisory capabilities from the department? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are providing more training for all of our com muni ty council clerks, but the commu nities that are going into block funding would be given advance training beyond the bookkeeping type of training, more sophis ticated training, so that they can participate in the delivery of some of the programs that are being delivered by the program. MR. D.

GOURLAY: So this isn't being done at the expense of clerks in other communi ties that are not under block funding? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No.

We are doing our best to encourage greater participation - communi ties go into block funding, so we want to encour age the people and show them how much more autonomy they really have by going into block funding, so we're making that as attractive as we can. lt's had some very positive results in the commu nities we have been in - Duck Bay, for instance, which is in your constituen cy, there have been some real positive changes in that communi ty council because of their having the ability to make some decisions locally and deliver some of the programs. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Under the block funding to the commu nities, there's sort of an indication from the Minis ter that this would result in less demands on Northern Affairs staff to work with those communi ties. There has been a change in the departmental structure, I believe. However, it would appear that there is more em phasis being placed, more back-up advisory staff to assist those communi ties that are in block funding; I think it is important that they be given encouragement and good advice at this stage.

However, in earlier questions, I gathered from the Mi nister that because of closing the office in Swan River, for instance, and there was a change in co ordinators and where they'd be working and because of block funding, there wasn't the need for the kinds of offices. So, to me, there seems to be a problem in understanding just where the department is going with this program. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Because of the numb er of communities that are going into block funding, we found that there was less of a need of local co-ordinators, but there was more of a neect ·of specialized training, so we had to make a readjust ment in the staff, so there were four people - I believe three of them were co ordinators before - who went into the specialized areas.

In order to facilitate this, we found it was necessary to make some shifts in the delivery and that's why the area that you're ref erring to now that previously the co-ordinator of Swan River covered - that part of your constituency will now be covered out of Dauphin - but that co-ordinator who was located in Swan River has now moved to Thompson as one of the specialists in delivering training for the communities that have gone into block funding. MR. D. GOURLAY: One of the four - was it four? - there are four specialized ro-ordinators that deal with the ... HON. H.

HARAPIAK: They're called local government advisors. MR. D.

GOURLA Y: With respect to the Nor thern Preference Clause for hiring in Limestone and the Northern Affairs boundaries - I believe this question came up last week and it was explained that there is a difference in the boundaries because of the agreement that was signed, the Nelson-Burn twood Agreement signed in '72 dealing with the Limestone project at that time, it established boundaries that are now different than the Northern Affairs boundaries and it's creating a problem with many of the people, failing to understand why they are not included in the agreement.

When they seek information about jobs through Limestone, they're advised that they don't come under the preference area. I'm wondering if this Mi nister has endeavoured to make these two boundaries synonymous and to elimina te this problem, which is very difficult to explain to people who are looking for a job, especially. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am the first to admit that the two boundary syste ms are causing a lot of confusion out there and if I had any way of changing it, I would change it right now.

Unfortunately, we, as a government, did not have any input into the location of this boundary line; that was a negotiated agreement between Allied Hydro Council and Manitoba Hydro. We were not a party to the negotiations of that line. lt would make it a lot simpler if it was the same line, but unfortunately at this time, it doesn't look like it will be changed in the next little while. There are organizations that are lobbying with the unions and 1962

........,,14 ...,1811 the Man itoba Hydro to try and change the location. I guess no matter where you would locate the line, there would still be people inside the line and outside the line, but I think if we could call it a Northern Affairs boundary line, it would be less confusing. lt is leading to quite a bit of confusion out there, but just on that Northern Preference Clause, the reason that we felt it was necessa ry to have that Northern Preference Clause -and the unions, I want to give them credit, because they recognized that there was a need for it as well.

They were party to the negoti ations and they negotiated that Northern Preference Clause, because they recognized that people living in the areas close to devel opment sites, in the past have not been given an equal opportunity to gain employment on those work sites. lt's fine to say that there has been a Northern Preference Clause in the past, but it didn't really work, but I guess it's hollow words, because we know that these people require the training.

In past construction years, the training was not made available to the people and that's why we have created the Limestone Training Authority, which is going to be delivering training for the people to be sure that they have the necessary qualifications to gain employment at the Limestone site. There are a lot of expectations out there and there's a lot of interest. I think that it's going to be a very successful program, the training program. MR. D. GOURLAY: Has there been any attempt, Mr. Chairman, on the part of this Minis ter to negotiate a change in the boundaries? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We, as a government, were not a party to the negotiations, and having been a part of a union in my past experience, I know that negotiations take time, and it's between the two people that are part of the agreement. lt's up to these people to negotiate that line. All we can do is encourage them to make that change. MR. D. GOURLAY: Could not the province show some initiative by raising the question? Because, back in 1972, I don 't know if there were any Northern Affairs boundaries. I'm sure there probably weren't.

I don't know just how the province was divided at that time, but I think the Northern Affairs boundaries, as we know them today, came in subsequent to that agreement, and I would think the various unions or the parties that made up the original Nelson-Burntwood Agreement would appreciate the situation that we find ourselves in today, to say nothing about the southern part of the province where people are anxious to find jobs too, whether they be in Limestone or whether it be another project in the North.

Certainl y, it's almost impossible to try and explain that there are two boundaries in existence when it comes to hiring at Limestone - or more than two, I should say. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have maps, which I find very helpful when I go out. lt's helpful, but yet it causes some bad feelings when you get out in the communities, because the line, unfortunately, runs right through some communities.

Crane River is a good example, where the community is on the outside of the line, but the band is on the inside of the line. lt's causing a lot of hard feelings in that community as well as others. lt is the same line that was in existence during the last construction period. There was an effort to negotiate that line to a different area. Some wanted to ti ghten it up and make it the 53rd Parallel.

That would have been easy to implement, but there's another group that wanted to extend it beyond the Northern Affairs line, but finally when the negotiations were completed, the line that's in place now was finally found a sort of middle of the road. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister saying that as far as this government is concerned that that is a dead issue as far as looking at a change in the boundaries, that it's a fait accompli, and that we're going to continue to have this situation? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are saying that it would be up to the parties who are subject to negotiations to change it.

All we can do as a government is to encourage them to look at it and extend it to the Northern Affairs boundary, but at this time it doesn't look very promising. MR. D. GOURLAY: it brings me back to my original question. is this Minis ter or this government formally approaching the parties to make this encouragement somet hing that can be realiz ed? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have had consultation with the people involved and they realize the dilemma that it's causing us as a governm ent. I guess they haven't made any promises, but they're going to be looking at it. I know the partnership, which is playing a very big

part in the Limestone development and in all parts of it, the training and also the delivery of some of the other programs are wanting to have the line moved as well, so they're also trying to set up a meeting with the parties Involved. MR. D. GOURLAY: I notice In the Research and Planning there is quite an increase in the funding this year over last year, almost double. I wonder if the Minis ter can indicate the kinds of Research and Planning that is being undertaken this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we prepared to pass Item 1.(b)(1) and l.(b)(2)? Because I haven't called the next item yet. MR. D. GOURLAY: I just have a few questions and then maybe we can pass that whole

section - (I nterjection) - I haven't got many more questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions on Item 1.(b)(1) and l.(b)(2)? The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I listened to the Min ister explaining to the Member for Swan River and I found it very hard to believe when the Mini ster said that they had no input whatsoever Into the planning of these boundaries. Does the Minister not realize that - is it the Allied Hydro Council that is 1963

Tl.le8day, 14 Mey, 1185 telling the government what they have to do? Is it the Allied Hydro Council that is telling them that, yes, you've got to build Limestone now? Is it the Allied Hydro Council that is saying, no, we don't want too many people inside this area, because too many of our union men will be cut off work? Is that what the Mini ster is telling us? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that a question? MR. H. GRAHAM: I'm asking the Min ister. Is that what you're telling us when you say you have no input into it? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I would like to tell the Member for Virden that the Allied Hydro Council had a very big

part in the negotiations of the Northern Preference Clause. They, as in a union, agreed that the people of Northern Manitoba did not have an opportunity to participate in previous construction years so they negotiated the Northern Preference Clause, knowing that they would assist the people of Northern Manitoba because they hadn't had an opportunity before; but we did not have a

part in those negotiations. That is a negotiated agreement between Allied Hydro Council and Manitoba Hydro. No, we did not have a

part in that negotiation. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, did the government tell the Allied Hydro Council that they wanted preference for the northern people to work on the job? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, we did. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, if the government had told them that there had to be participation by the northern people, would the government not tell them which northern people they wanted to take

part in it? I find it very difficult for the Minister to say that he had no part whatsoever in any of this boundary busine ss. That is almost incredible. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That was a subject of negotiations and we were not a party to the negotiations. A MEMBER: Well, why wer en't you? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Negotiations take part between . . . There's an agreement in place between Manitoba Hydro and Allied Hydro Council. I don't think the members have had very much experience with union membership. A MEMBER: We haven't been pushed around by them like you have. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We haven't been pushed around either.

They've been very co-operative and they've assisted us in putting in the Northern Preference Clause and I think they've been very co-operative. They've set a heck of a good example which many of us in this province could follow. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, it sounds to me as though the government has announced that they're going to build Limestone and they have then turned around and they've said to Hydro and to the Allied Hydro Council, we want no further part of it; you fellows go ahead and do whatever you want because we're not going to get involved.

That's the way it sounds, from what the Mini ster has been telling us. Is that correct? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Member for Virden should realize that we're still living in a democracy and not in a dictatorship. We're not going to dictate to anybody what is going to be going on. There's a negotiated agreement out there between the Allied Hydro Council and Manitoba Hydro. We are not going to dictate to them where the line will be located. That's a subject of negotiation. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is that the same policy that applies to all other departments of government?

Because I didn't get that impression from other departments of gover nment. HON. H. HARAPIAK: All the departments believe that we're living in a dem ocracy, we're not living in a dictatorship, and I guess maybe that's the strength of our government - the democr acy. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister Indicated that he had maps of the boundaries. Can the Minister provide us with copies of those maps? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, we can provide you with copies of the maps. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, a further question. He can provide them.

Will he provide them and will he do it while we're still In committee, Mr. Chairman? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We 'll try and get them for you this evening. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.

I find it somewhat hard to believe as well, when earlier in the comments the Mini ster made, he made a statement or comment that he's unhappy; as Minis ter of Northern Affairs who has the jurisdiction for Northern Affairs and the activities and the goings-on in that jurisdiction, that he said he was not happy, that he was having difficulty - he left the impression that he was having difficulty with where the boundaries were - and now he's saying, he refers to a democ racy. His job is to make the overall policies in the North fair. I haven't seen that coming from this Minister.

In fact, he is being pushed around by the Allied Hydro workers. it is his responsi bility, as Mi nister of Northern Affairs, to be fair to all the people of the North. If he's going to have a northern hiring preference, it is he and his govern ment 's polic y that should provide that fairness, not the Allied Hydro workers. Do you not realize, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, does he not realize that he has a responsi bility to those people who are left out to make the changes so that they are treated fairly? 1964

Tunday, 14 May, 1985 He talks about democracy . Heck, that's not a democracy; that's dictatorship by the Allied Hydro workers. That's where the dictatorship comes. He's allowing the unions to dictate to the people in Northern Manitoba who's going to be employed on the Hydro projects. That's where the dictatorship is and he is shirking his responsibility, Mr. Chairman, as a Minister of the Crown, as a Minister responsible to all the people of the North, in his duty as a Minister to be fair to everyone.

I ask the Minister, why would he turn complete responsibility over to the Allied Hydro workers to select the boundary as to where the people were going to be working from on northern projects? He cannot, Mr. Chairman, tell us that's democracy. What he is doing is turning the total responsibility over to a group in society who have a vested interest. If he doesn't know it now, he should pretty soon, that it's his overall responsibility as a Minister of the Crown, to be fair to everyone in the Province of Manitoba; but he has allowed the union to push him around. I'd like his response, Mr.

Chairman, to those comments. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I would like to tell the member that I am proud of the negotiations that went on with the union and Manitoba Hydro. If you want to talk about fair, then you should have a look at the agreement that has been negotiated with the Allied Hydro and Manitoba Hydro. lt is the fairest agreement that has ever been negotiated. The people of Northern Manitoba are getting a fair share to participate in the work that is going to take place.

They have never had that opportunity in the past and Manitoba Hydro, even though it was going to be eliminating many of their workers, were part of those negotiations that were giving the people of Northern Manitoba an opportunity to participate at a higher level than they have ever had an opportunity in the past. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, what he says Is "some" are getting a better opportunity, not "all" people of Northern Manitoba. By his own statement, he said he wasn't happy with the boundary.

So it's the Allied Hydro Workers Union that have established who's going to be employed and they've left out a lot of the people of Northern Manitoba. He makes reference to the Hydro agreement, the workers' agreement. Is the Minister prepared to table that agreement in this committee? HON. H. HARAPIAK: If the agreement has not been tabled till now, we have no hesitation to table the agreement. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to leave this point until I get an assurance that the Minister is going to exercise his responsibility and reconsider the boundaries that have been drawn. Will he do that?

Will he make the changes so that all the people in the North can have the employment opportunities on the work that's going to take place? Will he muscle up and stand up for the rights and the opportunities of all the people of Northern Manitoba when it comes to the hiring preference? Will he do so? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, I guess we can sit here all night and argue about the line. I guess what we should be talking about is this is the first time that there has been an order of preference clause negotiated which is going to be giving . . .

I know we would be happier if we could include all of Manitoba and we could have employment for all of Manitoba. I think there's going to be an opportunity for most Manitobans to be employed by the time we get finished with the construction of all the hydro sites that are going to be constructed. I think it will be an opportunity for all of the people who are interested in going to work between the construction site and the spinoffs that are going to be created with the Limiestone construction, and most of them that want to work, will have an opportunity to work.

They may be missed on the first time around, but there is still going to be an opportunity for the people who follow outside in line to gain employment as well. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is making a lot of statements. Is he able to back up what he's saying? He's saying that everybody in Manitoba will be able to -we'll go to a zero unemployment situation -is that what he's saying? I want to go back to this point.

He talks and wants to keep steering away from the fact that he and his government have allowed the Allied Hydro workers special privileges to select who is going to be working on northern projects. it's not the government, Mr. Chairman, who have selected an area and who have given special privileges to the people of Northern Manitoba. They've given the authority to a union to select who is going to work on the Northern Hydro projects. - (Interjection) -·As the Member for Virden says, they have shirked their responsibilities. The Minister talks about a democracy. He Isn't running a democracy.

He's allowing the unions to dictate and give them the full authority who is going to be employed on those jobs up there, not the government. He has taken the total responsibility away from his jurisdiction and given it to someone else. I ask him again will he review the line of who is going to be employed in the North and given preference? Is he prepared to stand up to the union, the Allied Hydro workers and tell them that he is not satisfied as he admitted 10 minutes ago, as he admitted on the record in this Legislative Committee that he is not "happy. He is not happy and said he would like to redo it.

Why doesn't he redo it, Mr. Chairman? He Is the Minister; he has the power; he has the authority; he has the majority in the Legislature and it is his responsibility. Why won't he do it, Mr. Chairman, why won't he? - (Interjection) - No. it's a problem with this government and this Minister. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Arthur is saying that he wants me to take a look. I want to Indicate to the Member for Arthur that we have been looking at the line. You're saying we're unhappy with it? MR. J. DOWNEY: I want you to take action. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I think if we could extend the line as easily as you indicate you can, then we would do it, but I don't think it's that simple to say okay 1965

TundaJ, 14 ... , 1885 there's negotiated agreement, that we're just going to dictate to the union or the group that was involved in the negotiations, that we are going to move the line. The line was in effect when your government was in power with the Long Spruce construction. Did you remove the line at that time if you thought that there should be no line? Why wasn't it removed completely at that time? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister and the government had the opportunity to say that the northern hiring can take place in any area of the province.

If they want to go to the 49th parallel it's within the Minister's power to do so. He is the Minis ter. lt's his jurisdiction. He doesn't need to be dictated to by the Allied Hydro Workers. He could encompass The Pas if he wanted to. He could put the line wherever he wants. 1t isn't a big problem. That's his re sponsibil ity. 1 plead with him to not just look at it, but if he's not happy as he indicated himself, then take action. Draw an Order-in-Council and go to .Cabinet and get the authority and support of his Cabinet colleagues to do so. Does he not have the desire?

He said he did have or does he not have the courage to stand up to the Hydro Workers Union? Is he continually going to be pushed around by the unions in this province, Mr. Chairman, that's really the bottom line question? Is he going to continually be pushed around. by the union? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, we are not being pushed around by the unions. Neither are we dictating to the people in this province what's going to be happening. The Member for Arthur should know that there in the first year of employment there is only going to be about 400 jobs, so they will not be able to - (Int erjection) - MR. J.

DOWNEY: Not near as big as your advertising is then, eh? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Oh yes, it will be ev entuall y. We have to go through the first year. We 've indicated all along that the first year, there will be 400 jobs. So it Is impossible to give everybody a position that is looking for employment at this time. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Co-operati ve Dev elopment. I rec ognized the Minister of Co-operative Dev elopment. MR. J. DOWNEY: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I had some more questions for the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Well, I'm still not satisfied. The Mi nister hasn't answered the question. Is he going to take into hand his responsibilities and redraw the bounda ries so that all the people of Northern Manitoba can have the opportunity to work on the northern projects? Is he going to do that? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt appears that the Member for Arthur is trying to dictate to me what my responsibilities are as a Minister. I don't think that you should be dictating to me anymore than I should be dictating to the Allied Hydro Council of Manitoba Hydro where the line should be.

I indicated in the past that it's a negotiated agreement and we are working in co-operation with the Allied Hydro Council and Mani toba Hydro to make sure that development goes along in an orderly process and that's what's happening. The member says that guys from Flin Flon can't get work. We ll, I'd like to inform the member that Flin Flon falls within the Northern Preference Line. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'm not dictating to the Minister and I wish he would withdraw that.

All I'm doing is asking him a question if he is prepared to take Into hand his responsibilities and redraw the boundaries which will include more of the people in Northern Manitoba in the northern hiring preference? That's not dictation. That's asking him a straightforward question. He earlier said he wasn't happy. He earlier said he wasn't satisfied. Now, I'm asking him will he take on his responsibilities and change the boundary to satisfy himself and the people of Northern Manitoba who feel they have been betrayed by this government? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I will tell the Member for Arthur that I will take it under consideration to try and encourage the Allied Hydro Council and Manitoba Hydro to change the line so it would follow the Northern Affairs boundar y. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he would go to Cabine t with his recommendations rather than the Allied Hydro Workers first ? Would he go to Cabinet to do it first and get support from his Cabinet colleagues rather than getting permission from the Allied Hydro workers? Will he go to Cabinet and get the permission? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I have told the Member for Arthur that it is a negotiated line and we are not about to start dictating to anyone where the line will be located. MR . CHAI RMAN: The Mini ster of Co-operative Dev elopment. HON. J. COWAN: Well, Mr. Chairperson, what we've heard tonight shows a total lack of underst anding in the way in which the hiring for major Hydro projects is undertaken. I think that the record should be quite clear in respect to the role of government, the role of Manitoba Hydro, the role of sub-contractors and major contractors and main contractors and the role of the different levels of government.

Hiring for the Limestone Project as has been hiring for the major Hydro projects that have been completed most recently is provided for under the Nelson Burntwood Collec tive Agreement. That agreement provides for a Northern Prefer ential Hiring Clause. The members opposite suggest that Is selected by the Allied Hydro Council and the union, or the unions involved in it. 1966

Tuesday, 14 May, 1985 What it in effect it is is a negotiated se ttlement between the Allied Hydro Council and the Allied Project Management Com mitte e which is a committee comprised of the sub-contractors and Manitoba Hydro. The agreement calls for a Northern Preferential Hiring Clause, which Is then used for hiring purposes by the Emplo yment and Immi gration Commission of the Federal Government. CEIC are the ones that are responsible for ensuring that the hiring provisions are implemented in the way in which the contract calls for them.

The member has tried to slur the government through slurring the union by suggesting that we are being dictated to by big unions, in this sense being dictated to by unions represented by the Allied Hydro Council.

I don't believe that that type of misrepr esentat ion and slur on the union or the government should be allowed to remain on the record unanswered when, in effect , the union and the Allied Hydro Council and the Hydro Projects Management Committee and Manitoba Hydro have worked together to provide for hiring procedures, which will ensure that northern Natives and Northerners and beyond that Manitobans, have prefer ential hiring as part of the project.

Wherever one draws a line, and that see ms to be the basic point of contention, there are going to be, as the Mi nister of Northern Affairs said, people on one side of the line who are going to be upset and people on the other side of the line who are not going to be upset, because they are included within the prefere ntial hiring area. In this instance, the line which Is drawn has been there since 1972 - I may stand corrected, maybe a year or two one way or the other, but it's my recollection that it's 1972.

This member who is now so concerned about it had a number of opportunities when he was in government to ensure that that line was changed if in fact it was such a concern to them.

Obvsiously, it was not enough of a conc ern when they were government to provoke them to any sort of action. lt's only enough of a concern when they're opposition to provoke them into misrepresentations and attacks on people, who I believe, have honestly and sincerely acted in the best interests of Northerners and northern Natives by sitting down and negotiating a preferential hiring clause that is probably the best in the country. lt is not without its imperfections; it is not without things that one party or another would like to see changed.

The line that was used was one established in 1972, and it is one that could, in fact, be a subject of further review. As a matter of fact, there have been discussions with different parties as to the effect of that line and how it might be amended if, In fact, it were amendable.

That's not saying that whatever line we come up with in the end will be the perfect line and it's not saying that the Mem ber for Arthur won't have opportunity to suggest that people on one side of the line are being unfairly dealt with, no matter where it is, because even If one chooses a Northern Affairs boundary, there are groups on one side of that line that would be excluded, and the former Mini ster of Northern Affairs, myself, the present Mini ster of Northern Affairs all know that the drawing of any boundary is a difficult process, because it does tend to exclude people.

But you do need to set parameters in place, and that is what this negotiated agreement does. Let us assume, and let us agree that the line should be revie wed. I don't think that's an unreasonable request and the Min ister has indic ated that it's one which he has taken into consideration previously, and will continue to attempt - (Interjection) - No, I'm sorry. The members opposite say that the Minister did not say that.

The record is very clear, perhaps they chose no to hear him say that, but, in fact, he did very clearly say that and the Member for Arthur at that time indicated that he was pleased with that answer. He said, "Now we're getting somewhere." So that fact is that he has chosen to forget what has already been said just a few moments ago, but in fact, the record will indicate clearly that it was said.

Let us talk about some of the other things that have happened under this government and under the leadership of this Min ister In respect to ensuring that Northerners gain more access to the opportunities that will flow from Limestone and that they have a better chance to participate in that economic deve lopment which is taking place right in their own backyard than they have ever had before.

The Min ister responsible for Northern Affairs has been a party to a number of working group meetings throughout the province, which have sat down with Native organizations, with organizations such as Norman, with LGDs and councils from Lynn Lake to The Pas to Leaf Rapids to Churchill, and talked about how, as a gove rnment, we maximize the benefits for Northerners that can arise out of Hydro construction. What did they say to us?

They said to us that the previous time for locating workers of 48 hours was unacceptable; that it was too short. we asked them what might be a more appropriate time; they suggested 72 hours might be a more appropriate time. We ll, when the unions sat down and negotiated the agreement, they, with the Hydro Projects Management Committee negotiated a 72-hour time period on the basis of the best advice that we could get from Northerners themselves. They said that there had to be provision made for training.

Just rec ently we have announced the Limestone Employment and Training Agency in Thompson, the opening of that office, as well as training programs equalling millions of dollars that will provide access to training that is so ne cessa ry, so that Northerners and Nat ives can have the type of experience and skills which will enable them to get jobs on the site.

Manitoba Hydro has indic ated that its tendering and purchasing policies have been revised so as to provide better opportunity, not only for the small businesses and the commu nities economic devel opment organizations located in the North, no matter which side of the line or whatever line is in place, they may be on, but for all Manitoba businesses. They have indicated very clearly that there are provisions in place to ensure the maximization of Manitoba participation by small businesses In the construcition activities surrounding Limestone.

They have also indicated, very clearly , that they will sit down with the hiring agency that is res ponsible for implementing the Nelson-Bu rntwood Col lective Agreement hiring procedures, CEIC, and they will es tablish a system that identif ies available workers, that identifies the skills of those available workers, and 1967

Tueect.J, 14 .. , 1885 provides quick access to them when their skills are requi red on the job site.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to go through all the major changes that have been implemented In order to maxim ize northern participation in Hydro development, but I think the ones that I've put on the record - and if time permits, if the discussion continues I'll have opportunity to put others on the record - show very clearly that this government has gone farther than any other government in the history of this province, and farther than any other government across the country in respect to ensuring that the benefits that flow from Hydro development flow to Northerners first.

We'll make no apology for the fact that we have sat down and negotiated and consulted and discussed and worked together to reach consensus, and that implies give and take so that we, in fact, can have in place the practices and procedures that will enable that participation to take place. For the Member for Arthur or any other member of opposition, who In their tenure, a number of years ago as government, who did nothing, to suggest that we have not done enough is ludicrous. - (Interjection ) - Well, the Member for Ste.

Rose suggests that it's something which is unparliamentary and I therefore would not want to put it on the record. However, it certainly borders on something that is unparliamenta ry. For them so suggest in the House, stand up day after day, that we are not providing for the type of hiring procedures that will enable Manitobans, as a whole, to enjoy the benefits of Hydro development and to reject and speak against the Northern Pref erential Hiring Clause, and then come into this committee and suggest that it doesn't go far enough, may not be hypocritical, but it cert ainly is inconsistent.

That sort of inconsistency is seen very clearly. If the member is interested in understanding more about the policies and the procedures that have been put in place to ensure that Norther ners gain that maximum participation, I'm certain we can provide that information to him. But no one on this side will stand silently by when they, after those comments they have made in the House rejecting ever ything we have done in order to increase that participation, come to this committee and suggest that we're not doing enough. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mini ster of Mines. HON. W PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I, too, want to participate in this debate in that there's a very clear misunderstanding on the part of members of the opposition regarding the Allied Hydro Council Agreement and the Nelson-Burntwood Agreement, when it was established and what the clauses were. The Northern Preference Clause, as the Minis ter of Co-operative Dev elopment indicates, was put into the agreement some time in the mid '70s - it might have been '73 or '74, I can't remember my exact dates - to try and achieve a greater northern involvement in hydro development.

The experience was that that clause that existed at that time didn't work that well. When the northern working group toured through the North, when I met with northern groups, they pointed out that that preference clause didn't work that well and needed to be improved. You had an agreement In place that's in place until 1995. That's an agreement in place, valid by law.

The Allied Hydro Council was approached, the management group was approached with this information with the indication that government policy was that we wanted to try and ensure greater northern involvement in hydro development, pointing out the very valid grievances of people from the North with respect to past developments.

One could, I guess, use the heavy hand of State to intervene in bargains of that nature . . . (inaudible) . . . agreed to until 1995, and I'll certain check because I believe that the agreement was, indeed, established to 1995 during the term of the Conservative Government between '77 and'81. So, it was negotiated at that time in place.

I say it's because of the foresight and vision of the Projects Management Committee plus the Allied Hydro Council that they voluntarily opened up an agreement during periods of higher unemployment right across the country at a time when, obviously, people are coming back to Ma nitoba from places like Al berta and Saskatchewan and elsewhere, looking for work because they know that there are probably some better opportunities in Manitoba than might exist in Alberta, B.C. and other places.

They opened up that agreement and they Improved that Northern Preference Clause, taking into consideration the points raised by Native groups and communities and individuals in discussions with them. I pay tribute and I commend them for doing that. In that process of negotiation, the same boundary that had existed in the past, the people had not complained about it in the past - at least, not to my knowledge, during the term of the Schreyer Government, the term of the Lyon Government or the term of the Pawley Government.

People, since that time, have raised concerns about boundary edges. - (Int erje ction) - No, raised concerns about the boundary edges and we have said that we will put in place a system of monitoring and evaluating the overall program with a view to revie wing this probably on a yearly basis, and making changes within that context - part of a rational, reasoned approach on trying to achieve this objective. The Northern Preference Cla use is but one instrument. Another instrument, as the Minister for Co op Dev elopment indicated is the Limestone Training and Employment Agenc y.

That is another very important instrument. 1t is a new instrument; we hope it works well. The people who put it together are people who, I think, have done a very good job in past efforts at training and employing Native people.

I might point out, however, that the Limestone Training and Employment Agency fills a vacuum that was created when the Conservative Government between 1977 and'81 decimated virtually every program geared to affirmative action and Native development in Northern Manitoba, one of these being the Northern Manpower Corps which was decimated by the Conservative Government That must have been done as part of policy. There was an Out reach Program into Native communi ties to help identify people who might work both in northe·n jobs and other jobs.

That whole program was decimated by the Cons ervative Government between 1977 and 19 81. I find it rather 1968

TuMdaJ, 14 May, 1185 ironic that the people who did that, I think, dirty task, dirty deed to Northern Manitoba and to northern Natives are the ones who come here today and try and pontificate. - (Interject ion) - If he calls that sleaze, Mr. Chairman, the sleaze came out of those people when they destroyed those programs between '77 and 19 81. it's a fact. They call fact "slime," they call fact "sleaze," Mr. Chairman. That's their definition of truth, their definition of history.

What we're looking to do is provide training to people so that they might go through apprenticeship programs and, indeed, have skills that will last them a lifetime, become journeymen carpenters, become journeymen pipefitters, become journeymen electricians and be able to have those skills and use them in other develo pments that might take place in Northern Manitoba, or use them in communities where right now people are brought in from other parts of Manitoba or other parts of Canada to do carpentry work or to do electrical work or to do pipefitt ing work or to do plumbing work.

We 've had over 100 years of history as a province and we still find that northern Native commun ities don't have those skills. We are undertaking to fill that void and it's a big challenge and we're going to make a lot of mistakes when we do that. That's fair ball. We will make a lot of mistakes. If you're saying one should look at the boundary - (Interjection) - No. I thought I was talking to some people who raised a legitimate concern. MR. CHAIRMAN: Address the Chairman, please. HON. W. PARASIUK: That's interest ing.

I thought that they wanted to hear about this - (Interjection) - That's right! lt's interesting that their concern is that maybe Limestone's a good thing. So what you have to do is try and run it down, attack it. lt's an Intere sting approach by the Conservatives. it's Interesting to know exactly where they stand on this particular issue. We have said clearly that we are pursuing a program of greater northern involvement in hydro dev elopment. We are doing things that have never been done in this country before. We're making these improvements. We 're going to review what we do on a yearly basis.

We will unde rtake corrections on a yearly basis. We have an ongoin g process of consulta tion, communication and feedback. We have faith in that process. Certainly, we will be looking at things in the future to see how we can improve them; but surely we should allow the program to get a start; surely we should allow the Intake to take place, the training to take place, get people in place so they can take

part in the first jobs as they come forward. There'll be a big increase Into the se cond year. We are growing to almost a thousand workers at that stage. There's a lot of spinoff activity. Mr. Chairman, we certainly are pleased that we have been, I think, setting the policy clearly for people. We've been pleased that we've received tremendous co operation from the Project Management Committee, from the Allied Hydro Council, from various business groups in this province, from various community groups, Mr. Chairman.

There's a co-operative effort taking place out there that I think indeed will maximize benefits to a far greater degree for Manitobans and espec ially northern people. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm somewhat surprised to hear the bombast from the Member for Churchill and the Mi nister of Min es and Energy. They're somewhat sensitive to some of the questions. The Minis ter of Northern Affairs, I would have thought, would have possibly had a little more dis cussion with them at some other point and straightened them out. I would go back to the Min ister .

He ind icated that he was prepared to table the bound aries and all the information dealing with it. Again I ask him, as a Minister, what are his feelings, as it is his respo nsibil ity, to the boundary change? Does he belie ve that he has justifiable reason . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Arthur has the floor. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does he have justifiable reasons to consider a boundary change, because he himself ind icated he was not happy with it?

That's really what started this whole thing, so any criticism of the other Mi nisters, I have to say here, is strictly directed at the Min ister of Northern Affairs for not discussing with the other Min isters of his Cabinet the difficulties that he'.s having. So I ask him, does he now have the copies of the bounda ries and the agreement, Mr. Chairman? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, I have copies of the boundaries but I haven't got copies of the agreement here. We will give you the copies of the map right now which shows the boundary line as per

Article 13. 1 and then we'll get you the agreement at a later time. MR. J. DOWNEY: At a later time, mean ing, when would that be? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We can table it in the House. We won't have it tonight, but later in the committee. MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay, within a day or two, Mr. Chairman. That's fair. Mr. Chairman, another area, and I'm not sure whether this is the appropriate spot to ask the question of the Min ister , but I will ask him, dealing specifically with the difficulty at Herb Lake landing. There has been a problem there for a couple of years with some of the residents there.

There aren't many people living there but there was a problem under the former Min ister that he wasn't able to solve. He kept deferring the people to either the Ombudsman or someone else, but it was a dispute over the Crown land and the access to the lake. Has that problem been resolved or is there a difficulty in that area? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, I'm aware of the difficulty that was being experienced at Herb Lake. The Ombudsman was called in and the Ombudsman did an inquiry and we have still not had a report. He has not made a report to this time. 1969

MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman. there's another prime example of the government not carrying out their responsibil ity. lt is Crown land. lt is the Crown that has to make the decision as to what property goes to either persons. First of all, the former Min ister, who now I believe is the Mi nister respo nsible for Manfor, was not prepared to come to grips with his respon sibility.

I ask this Mi nister now -because I don't believe it's any of the Ombudsman's jurisdiction -will he not personally take a look at the allocation of the Crown land and solve the problem for the people who live in a very small community, who are very upset with one another? I would have thought it a good, clear-cut decision by the government or the staff of the government would have solved that problem months ago. Why doesn't he take hold of it and solve it_ and remove some of the problems for those people? Will he do so? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We will await the report from the Ombudsman.

The Ombudsman, who has the authority to deal with disputes of that type has gone in there, he has made an investigation and hopefully he'll be able to resolve the problem. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would hope that as soon as the Ombuds man report is available that he would table it. I would ask him to do so and then take the necessary action to solve the problem. A further question, Mr. Chairman. When was this map that the Min ister tabled prepared? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I believe that map was prepared prior to the last agreement.

That's in 1972, because that same boundary line has been in effect since that time, so there has been no change in the boundary lines. That's when the map was prepared. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have another question and I guess I might as well put it on the record right now and see what the Mi nister's response is. 1 can't find anyplace dealing specifically with the development of northern agriculture or the North feeding the North. Has the Minister abandoned the policy of supporting any agriculture development in his jurisdiction in the North? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: On the contrary, we believe in the concept of the North feeding the North. There have been some efforts made on a small scale, and I think that's the way it has to start, the community of Comorant has cleared approximately 70 acres for gardens for the community and the Department of Agriculture has provided some assistance, along with No rthern Community Assets Project to make sure that this land was prepared so the people can put the gardens in this year.

On the larger scale, there is still some studying being done on the possibility of exte nding agriculture in the Wabowden area and also there's a group in Cormorant who are looking at some co-operative development of some farm land. They're anxious to get some farm land in operation there and there's an application in at this time, through the Northern Dev elopment Agreement, to bring some add itional land in to agricultural production. MR. J. DOWNEY: Where would I find that in the Estimates of Northern Affairs? HON. H. HARAPJAK: lt's del ivered under the Department of Agriculture. MR. J.

DOWNEY: In other words, what the Minister has said, he has actually got nothing. There is no initiative and it's in fact not quite correct when he said that his major ambition is to see northern agriculture developed. lt would normally seem reaso nable to me, if he were going to do so, that he'd have made an allocation of funds in his Estimates. lt's an admission that he has absolutely no money under his authority or any staff under his authority to enhance and develop agriculture. Mr.

Chairman, he's the Mini ster of Northern Affairs and I ask the Min ister , why he hasn't put an appropriation for agricultu ral development in his Northern Affairs budget. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Northern Affairs is the co ordinating department for the Northern De velopment Agreement and there is an application at this time, through the Northern Devel opment Agreement, for the clearing of some land. We don't have a special line there for it, but it is under the Northern Deve lopment Agreement that they have made the application. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, as well, possibly the Mi nister's answer would be the same as far as any 4- H development. Is there any policy to continue with 4- H programs in the North? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There is a.4-H program in the North, but it's delivered under the Department of Agriculture. MR. J. DOWNEY: So there is a continuation of the program. I find it somewhat interes ting, the comments made by the Minister on block funding. The Minister fully supports the block funding concept for Northern Manitoba? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Ye s, we have had one community, the Community of Cross Lake has been under block funding for a year and the experience has been very positive. I was in the Community of Cross Lake last week and spoke to the community council and people from the community and they are very pleased with the deve lopments that have gone on in that community.

There is an additional six communities at this time who have signed the Block Funding Agreement and in preparat ion for it, when they were in self-administration, the people were already beginning to make more of the decisions in the community and I think that's been a real positive effect on those communities, there is greater autonomy in those communities. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster supports block funding for the northern communities.

Does he feel the sar'1e about the City of Winni peg that block funding shuuld not be carried on here and the same principles applied in the City of Winnipeg? 1970 m o

Tueeday, 14 Mq 1185 HON. H. HARAPIAK: I think that it's a growth process and they are way beyond the process where the communities in Northern Manitoba are. MR. J. DOWNEY: So, what the Minister is say ing after a town or a city is fully developed and grown up they don't know how to handle their money but, yet, a young and growing community does know how to handle it. That's really what he's saying? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The City of Winn ipeg is self governing and they collect their own taxes and there's complete autonomy in that area. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, is the Min ister saying that he supports block funding for the City of Winnipeg the same as he does for the northern communiti es? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I didn't get that. MR. J. DOWNEY: The question is does he support block funding for the City of Winnipeg as he is providing for the northern communit ies? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Capital Projects are not included in the block funding, so it's a different situation than the City of Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b )(1) -the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just suggest that the Minis ter and his government have a double standard. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: No, I don't think that's true. The Capital is not includ ed and that makes it a different process. MR. J. DOWNEY: No it isn't; double standard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, before we get involved here on many things, I'd asked a question on Res earch and Planning. MR. CHAIRMAN: If we are ready to pass this one we can go to Resource and Planning. MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think we're just about ready to pass the whole works. MR. CHAIRMAN: I hav en't called Item No. 1 MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, we'll make special reference to that (

c) then, but maybe I'll ask the Min ister what research work is being und ertaken this year? · HON. H. HARAPIAK: The three areas that Research and Planning are going to be doing the majority of their work this year is in developing a criteria for establishing block funding. Also, we're going to be just looking into perfor mance bonding and, also, we're involved directly in the Limestone Training Dev elopment, the people from the department are involved in that area as well.

Also, we're looking at esta blishing a policy; several communities are looking at becoming members of the Northern Affairs Department -new communities coming in -and we're looking at establishing the criteria for communities moving into the Northern Affairs areas. MR. D. GOURLAY: Some additional communiti es that are not now associated with the Northern Affairs Department? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, there are several communities who are making inquiries as to how they could become a part of Northern Affairs and we are es tablishing the criteria of how these communities would become part of Northern Affairs. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I have a numb er of communi ties that would like to apply too from my constitu ency. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, as a matter of fact, one of your communit ies in your constituency is looking for -two of them - have been looking to become part of Northern Affairs and that's Briggs Spur and Baden; - (I nterject ion) - just Briggs Spur. MR. D. GOURLAY: Baden Is part of it now is it not? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, it is part of it. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are there numerous communities throughout the North that are sort of . . . There are small communities, are they? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There are a lot of small communiti es. Grand Rapids has made some inqu iries just to see what would be a benefits for them to become part of Northern Affairs rather than being LGD. We're in the process of dev eloping that material so they can have a good look at what benefits there would be or if there was any benefits to become part of Northern Affairs. MR. D. GOURLAY: You say the Community of Grand Rapids? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is the department actively promoting that some of these communit ies go from an LGD to being a Northern Affairs community? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: No, we would prefer to leave the bound ary line where it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you finished? The Member for Minnedosa wants . MR. D. GOURLAY: Go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, where do we discuss northern housing? Have we got to that, are we past it? Are we covering the gauntlet . . . 1971

HON. H. HAAAPIAK: No, it's under the Department of Housing's Budget that you'd discuss that. MA. D. BLAKE: lt's all under Housing? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Right. MA. D. SLAKE: Okay. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MA. D. GOUALAY: Ye s, there was a question on this rese arch and the communities joining Northern Affairs. A concern I have that has been expressed to me by some people In the Baden area -the concerns didn't come from Baden -but I understand that a number of people have moved from, I believe, National Mills Into Baden. Vacated houses are still empty and they're now building new houses In Baden.

I believe there's something like 17 homes now that have sprung up in Baden. a community that doesn't offer any more in the way of employment opportunities, leaving vacant houses now in National Mills and applying and getting homes through the MMF and, I guess, through the Department of Northern Affairs. I think 17 homes or something like that have been built In this community. Is this not of some concern to the Mi nister? HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: Ye s, it is of concern to me and to the department because I guess that's some of the areas that we're going to be looking at. lt doesn't seem to make much common sense to have a community where all the infrastructure Is already located to be moving down the road two or three miles and crea ting another community. We are not encouraging it and we never sanctioned that community locating at Baden. They had asked for permission to have the surveying done -that was granted -but after that there was nothing granted beyond there. They just chose to locate there. MA. D.

GOUALAY: Where would the approval be given for the go-ahead on the construction of new homes? Would this be through Central Mortgage and Housing in conjunction with the MMF or would it be through Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: There are no criteria for Central Mortgage and Housing. There Is under the emergency repair of the Manitoba Metis Federation that some of these houses were being built and also most of the homes that are being built are log homes that are built out of local material. MA. D. GOUALAY: I didn't catch the last . HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: Most of the homes are log homes being built from local material. MA. D. GOUALAY: But now the situation arises where these people want other community structures, a community hall and other facilities that they already left in the community of National Mills.

I appreciate the Mini ster recognizes the valid concerns that have been brought forward and I just would hope that the department would not encourage this kind of -or try to discourage it, wherever it starts to appear, because Baden was not a community of any conseq uence three years ago and today I believe there are somet hing like 17 homes there; and it's between Mafek lng and Barrows, not many miles apart, and it's very costly to the taxpayers to supply the infrastructure and whatever people require there. HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: That's exactly the concern we have and we have been trying to discourage them from locating in Baden because, as you mentioned, the infrastructure Is already in those other communities so you cannot, as a government, afford to be having that Infrastructure located four or five miles down the road because it would be a continuo us line of houses and it's just too difficult to deliver the infrastructure they said they would like to see In those communities. We are doing our darnedest to discourage them from moving there, but I'm not sure how you control it when they'r e just more or less squatting. MA. D.

GOUALAY: With respect to Grand Rapids, are there di scussions between the Departments of Municipal Affairs and Northern Affairs in the situation of Grand Rapids possibly becoming part of Northern Affairs? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: There has been a comparison done as to what advantages the community would receive under Northern Affairs and what advantages there are for being under LGD and the Council of Grand Rapids is now -the Information is In their hands so the decision Is up to them to make the decision as to . . .

They have the next step; then it would be up to Northern Affairs, once the criteria are developed , to see if they would extend the bou ndaries to take them in. MA. D. GOUALAY: The Northern Affairs Department would have the final say -would they? -with respect to Grand Rapids being brought in under the umbrella of Northern Affairs? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: There would have to be an 01 C before they could become part of the Northern Affairs, rather than being a part of LGD, so it would rest with the government. MA. D. GOUA LAY: What has brought about this situation in Grand Rapids?

I would think that Grand Rapids would have a reason ably good economic base compared to many communities that are not part of Northern Affairs communitie s now. For sure, if you're comparing the advantages between a community being in Northern Affairs or being on their own, there's no comparison, because it wasn't designed in that light. it was sort of a natural progression to move forward on your own economic base and to gradually administer your own affairs, just like we are talking about the block funding and so forth, and other communities that are trying to get on their own footing.

So I find that there must he 3ome serious situation that has occurred in Grand l. apids for this even to have gone this far, to be in the '1ands of the local council of the LGD to 1972 Ra h

l'UesdaJ, 14 Mar. 1185 decide whether they should go Northern Affairs or stay on their own. HON. H. HARAPIAK: The points that the Member for Swan River has made are fact and I think once the LGD has all the information that it has, they are going to see that they're are much further ahead by being in the LGD than they would be a part of Northern Affairs; but I think it's just not having all the information available when they made the request, they felt there were some benefits to being part of Northern Affairs and maybe it's because of the Commun ity Assets Projects that they felt were not available to them.

But now there have been some changes in the delivery of that and they could qualify for the Community Assets Projects so I think that has been removed, so I would think that once they weigh all the pros and cons, that they will make the decision to stay within the LGD. MR. D. GOURLAY: I believe I have a number of com mu nities that are close by Northern Affairs communit ies and are still incorporated units on their own, and so they become a bit jealous from time to time in see ing the kind of infrastructure that's put in through the larger Northern Affairs Department.

I can appreciate where the communities are close by, where it's difficult to try and sell them on the fact that they are better off to go it alone and in view of the fact that it may take a little longer for them to get their water and sewer; but at least they're in charge of their own destiny more and they will have to gradually work back up the system again. Any chance I have I really discourage any of the communtles from . . . it would have to be a really good reaso n, I would think, for them even to get this far.

I'm just a little bit concerned why Grand Rapids haven't been given a little bit of encouragement to stay as an LGD. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Being a former Minis ter of Municipal Affairs and a former Min ister of Northern Affairs, you would have a good understanding of the advantages of being in both systems, so I would hope that you would continue to encourage the people to move towards greater autonomy and point out the advantages of being within the LGD. I appreciate the fact that you're doing that and I would hope you would continue to do it. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, we're dealing with the Water Services provision. Is that what you were on, discussing at that point? MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't approved 1.(b)( 1) ye t. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, the Water Services would come under the next section. Is that where it comes under, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Where is the Water Services? Under Capital, Expenditures Related to Capital. MR. J. DOWNEY: Is that where it is? MR. CHAIRMAN: it would be No. 6. Expenditures Related to Capital. MR. D. GOURLAY: I just have one more question on this first part, Mr. Chairman. I thought I was recognized, Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Recognition is discretionary on the part of the Chair. The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: On the $104 ,000 in Research and Planning, that provides for additional staff , does it? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there has been a relocation of staff. There's one staff, plus one secretarial support and one analyst. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Northern Affairs fund, what Is that used for? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, the Northern Affairs Fund is divided into two major portions.

The one portion is dealing with property taxation and that's to maintain property tax records of all assessed properties in Northern Affairs. it also levies property taxes on all properties for school purposes and municipal purposes, and it also maintains records for the tax roll of tax collections.

The second portion of the fund is the trust fund and this is a mechanism to maintain the records of all funds forwarded to the communities under the ju risdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs. it also maintains financial records to process transactions for those communities that are in a trust status, and also serves as a means of distribution of the municipal tax sharing grant to northern communities and the Indian bands. it also maintains record for job creat ion programs under Youth Corps and Northern Community Access Projects. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)( 1 )-pass; 1. (b)(2)- pass. 1. (c)( 1) Research and Planning, Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditu res. 1. (c)( 1)-p ass; 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (d)

(1) Financial and Admin istrative Services, Salaries; 1.(d)

(2) Other Expenditur es. 1. (d)(1)- pass; 1. (d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)( 1) Northern Affairs Fund, Salaries; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditu res. 1. (e)( 1)-p ass; 1. (e)(2)-pass. 1. (f)( 1) Audi t Services, Salaries; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditu res. 1. (f)( 1 )- pass; 1. (f)(2)-pass. There will be no res olution on this vote because of the Minis ter's Salary. Item No. 2.(a)(1)(

a) Local Government Dev elopment, Local Government Services, Northern Dev elopment Agreement, Salaries and Wages; 2.(a)( 1)(

b) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the director of this

section chose to retire and then before he retired took a serious heart attack and wish to withdraw his resignation. However, I understand that the department refused to reinstate this individual? Is this the case? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, the individual had made the decision to retire. About a week after he had made 1973

nae.clay, 14 May, 1185 the decision and submitted his resignation, he had a serious heart attack. A few days later, he had made the decision that he would like to cancel his retirement plans and there was consultation with the unions involved and the Civil Service and legal advice was sought and they all recommended that we could not withdraw his retirement notice. MR. D. GOU RLAY: Was there no grounds of compassion considered In this case? Was the individual not in a position to fulfill the duties that would be required of him because of his health? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I am advised that he could not perform his duties at that time. MR. D. GOURLAY: The Minister says, at that time. I would expect that he would be still in a period of recuperation, but looking at it from a longer term, was there medical advice available to the Minister or did the Minister make the decision !lOt to reinstate him? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt did not come to the Minister's level. There was a consultation done again with the Civil Service Commission, MGEA and also the staff relations officer and they have all have made the recommendation that we should not withdraw the resignation. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Based on his apparent health or was it based on his work performance? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt was based on his health. MR. D. GOURLAY: That he would not be able to recuperate to the point where he could handle this position? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I should tell the Member for Swan River that this is still in the grievance proced ure, so maybe we should discuss this In private so we don't jeopardize the grievance procedure. MR. J. DOWNEY: I want to hear too, Harry. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'll discuss it with you privately as well. MR. D.

GOU RLAY: In view of the fact that he was a director of the branch was there no provision for him to be offered a lesser role perhaps at reduced pay but one In keeping with his abilities to perform that work? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am informed it was not a question of him having the ability to carry out the work. Because this subject is in a grievance proced ure, all we can say is that we were advised by staff relations that we could not withdraw the resignation. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate what activities are being performed in this area at the present time. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The major activities of the local Government Services Branch are monitoring community accounts and records and advising the community councils and local committees and council clerk on imp rovements that they could make in the running of their local councils; providing direction and assistance to community councils and local committees and local governme nt; admin istration matters such as emergency planning, boundaries, by-laws, taxation and financial reporting, and they're also Involved In assisting and encouraging communities In planning, budgeting and Identification of local services needs In the commun ity.

They're also monitoring and advising the department and the community councils and local committees on items which require attention by the commu nity, such as repairs rela ting to the provision of local services at the community level, such as organizations and activities of the fire department, water systems operat ions, maintenance of roads and maintenance of buildings. MR. D. GOU RLAY: I thank the Mi nister for that information. With respect to the Northern Development Agreement, I notice there's money allocated here. What program does that come under in the Northern Dev elopment Agreement? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: That is under Program 13 which Is 100 percent provincial funding. MR. D. GOURLAY: What Is the situation with respect to fire prev ention in the Northern Affairs communities? What new additions will be brought In this current year with respect to firefighting equipment and locations of the equip ment? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are going to be involved in training in schools in local area training courses for level 1 firefighters and for breat hing apparatus and fire prevention Inspection.

They're also going to be involved in regional workshops for fire chiefs, council members and service officers and preparing them for emergency cases. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are there any new fire trucks coming on force this year? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yes , there's a new fire truck going in for Easter ville and Bissett, about getting new fire trucks; there's a new firehall water supply going Into Moose Lake and Homebrook; there's a new firehall water supply going into llford; there's also some equipment going Into Norway House which is replacing some of the exist ing equipment; also South Indian Lake, they're replacing some equipment, clothing and hoses. MR. D. GOURLAY: I believe there's a similar program dealing with, on the federal part, for Indian reserves and putting in upgraded services and fire equipment in the various reserves.

What kind of a re ciprocal agreement Is In place? In most cases, there's a Metis community next to a reserve, so has there not been a reciprocal deal where firefightlng equipment was established in one centre or the other that it would cover ... HON. H. HARAPIAK: The program of that sort would be under federal funding. lt's under Program 12. Cross 1974

Tue8day, 14 May, 1985 Lake is maybe an example we can use where the community council has a fire truck and the Cross Lake Band has some pumping equipment which they use in a co-operative way. When there's a fire, the pumping equipment the band has is brought on so the fire truck does not have to quit and run for water. They can pump water into their fire trucks so they can have a continuous supply of water and there's good co-opet'ation between the two fire departments and they have a reciprocal agreement which they cover on a cost basis for fires on band property. MR. D.

GOURLAY: With the Program 12, are there any fire trucks being purchased through the federal 100 percent funding to go into reserves that might be cov ering Northern Affairs communities? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, there are none, presently . There are none at this time. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is all the activity under Program 12 similar to the situation at Cross Lake where there is a Northern Affairs comm unity with some equipment and this program is being used to supplement the capabili ties of the total firefighting? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: In most of the communities, it's much the same as Cross Lake and Moose Lake where the community council has their fire truck and then they have a reciprocal agreement with the band. Norway House hasn't got a truck either. Most of them are located in the community councils, that have the trucks. MR. D. GOURLAY: This Program 12 and Program 13 - as far as the Minister is concerned, are they working out fairly well?

I believe in the past there have been some problems with a little bit of friction between adjacent communities and who would do what, and if there was a fire, would there be the necessary co operation. I believe that this program was started a number of years ago, did run into some initial problems, but it was, I think, being worked on to get a little better harmony between the two communit ies.

I notice there's $12 million being allocated in each program, which is a fair amount of money, and it doesn't necessarily just cover fire prevention. lt covers a number of areas, but fire prevention is pretty important, especially In those remote areas; and it's one that I think has established a pretty good record over the last decade. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There are always differences of opinion within communities and bands, but I think that they have been working to a greater degree to co operate with one another and it seems that they have gone through those first growing pains and now there Is much more co-opera tion. I'v e visited several comm uni ties that have the firefighting equipment and these communi ties have really developed a great pride in the fire prevention service they are supplying.

I know that we were at Cross Lake the other day and they were extremely proud of their response time and they've really had an affirmative action program there where they've got two women who are on their fire department; one of them is a captain. I think it's the same in every community that has fire equipment: We were up to Waterhen and they too were very proud of their record and of the service they were providing. I think that again speaks well for the people, when they see there is greater autonomy in the community and they start using the fire equipment as their equipment.

So they're utilizing it, using it with great care and they're providing a real good service and they can be proud of the job that they're carrying out in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(aX 1Xa)- pass; 2.(aX 1Xb)-p ass. 2.(a )(2)(

a) Northern Development Agreement - Canada-Manitoba, Emergency Response Program; 2.(aX2Xb) Less: Recove rable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I wonder, I don't see any amount put in here. I was just wondering if the Minister could indicate what Is Involved here. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm informed that it's netted out in agreement and it becomes part of Vote 5 and that's where it's covered. MR. D. GOURLAY: I didn't get that. HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt Is part of Vote 5 - the funding Is under Vote 5. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the next page, Page 130. MR. D.

GOUR LAY: That's 10 0 percent provincial funding? HON. H. HARAPIAK: 60-40. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is that the same as Program 5, Vote 5? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, it is. lt is Vote 5, it's not Program 5. If you wanted to have some discussion on it, we can have discussion on it. MR. D. GOURLAY: I see, okay. We ·can pass that Item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(aX2Xa)-pass; 2.(aX2Xb)-pass. 2.(bX 1l Local Government Services: Salaries and Wages; 2.(bX2l Other Expenditures; 2.(bX3) Commu nity Operations - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister can give us a brief recap on the act ivities under this. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question. MR. D. GOURLAY: Could the Minister give us a brief recap or overview of just what is entailed here? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, under Community Council Clerks, for this year it's 543.4; for Police Constables, 400.7; for Operations and Maintenance, 11 56.3; for Water Services. 289.3; for Night Soils, 115 .3; for Fire Programs. 258.4; Discre tionary Fund, 66. 1; Employee Benefits. 40.0, for a total of 2,8 69,500. 1975

TUeeday, 14 Mar. 1985 MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, for clarification, where would the Cross Lake Ferry that was moved to South Indian Lake, what expense Item would that come under? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt's under Capital, Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: That's under Vote - or whatever you call it. HON. H. HARAPIAK: No. 6. MR. D. GOURLAY: The rep airs to the homes In South Indian Lake, that would be under? That was under Capital. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That was under Capital as well. MR. D. GOU RLAY: I notice under Commun ity Opera tions, 2.8 million. What wa!! that about? I missed that answer. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Did you want the breakdown again? MR. D. GOURLAY: Just briefly some of the items. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Under Commun ity Clerks, it's 543.4; Police Cons tables, 400. 7; Opera tions and Maintenance, 11 56.3; Water Services, 289.3; Night Soil, 115 .3; Fire Programs, 258.4; Discret ionary Fund, 66. 1; Empl oyee Benefits, 40.0. MR. D. GOURLAY: Could the Minister give us a breakdown on the Empl oyee Benefits? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt is municipal pension plans which many of the community councils have gone Into, mun icipal pension plans for the empl oyees. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Is that the same program as the Department of Mu nicipal Affairs employees? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, it Is. MR. D. GOURLAY: And Canada Pension is involved here too? Unempl oyment Insurance? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, that would be under a different catego ry. That would come under the Commun ity Clerks portion as well. MR. D. GOURLAY: We can pass that now. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b )( 1)-p ass; 2.( b)(2)- pass; 2.( b)(3)-pass. 2.(c)(1 )(

a) Construction Services: Tec hnical Services, Salaries; 2.(c){ 1)(

b) Other Expenditur es; 2.(c )(2){

a) Commu ni ty Works, Salaries; 2.(c)(2)(

b) Other Expenditures; 2.(c)(2)(

c) Regional Services - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, this covers the technical services for water and sewer installation, community roads and commun ity infrastructure details? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Including engineering and drafting people and water and sewers. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, we can pass this. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1 )(a)- pass; 2.(c)( 1)(b)-p ass; 2.(c)(2)(a)-pa ss; 2.(c)(2)(b)- pass; 2.(c)(2)(c)-pass. 2.( d)(1)(

a) Municipal Support Services: Northern Dev elopment Agreement - Provincial, Salaries and Wages; 2.(d)( 1 )(

b) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Briefly, Mr. Chairman, can the Min ister indicate what's entailed here? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Municip al Support Services is involved in supporting the ongoing deve lopment of local government in remote areas under Northern Affairs. lt prepares trai ning materials of local government and admin istration matters for deliv ery to commun ity councils and their staff, and Is also involved in the preparation and delivery of the training material to department staff of the area of local government and deliv ery tech niqu es In those areas. They are also involved in providing support service to the community and other branches and

section of the department In preparation and the provisions of resource material such as written reports, trai nin g equipment and resear ch, and impl ementation of special assignments.

The major activities of this sect ion are to develop and prepare training programs to be used in the development of administration skills necessary for the communities moving into block funding, and to organize and deliver tra ining sessions and sem in ars for departmental staff and assist organizations In deliveri ng of training sess ions for community council officials, and to di rect and co-ordinate the taking of the trl-annual community census and also maintains the departmental library for use of internal resources in the Department of Northern Affairs. MR. D. GOURLAY: Perhaps the Min ister indicated this.

Does it cover the community elections, the expenses involved and . . . HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, the elections are not covered under Muni cipal Support Services. MR. D. GOURLAY: Where does that come und er, Local Government Services? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Unde r Local Government Services, under 2.(b). MR. D. GOURLAY: I don't have any further questions on that, except if I might ask the Minister, regard ing the elections, are they still held the middle of February? Is that date still - the communities are happy with time for the elections? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: lt seems to be an appropriate time because the response at the election polls were - not only were there many people seeking positions of mayors and councillors, but also the response to the polls was very high as well. The interest was very high, so it must be the right time of the year. 1976

MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)( 1 )(a)-pass; 2.(d)(1)(b)-p ass. 2.(

e) Grants -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Mini ster can give us a breakdown of the grants, how much and where they go to. HON. H. HARAPIAK: NACC was 277.9; MMF was 218 .4; MKO was 78.5; FNC was 67.4; All Chiefs Budget Committee was 44; and Brotherhood of Indian Nations was 23.5 and the IVY was 50, for a total of 754.7. MR. D. GOURLAY: Can the Mi nister supply us with a sheet giving the breakdown on those grants? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, we can provide you with a sheet with those breakdowns. MR. D. GOURLAY: There was an 0/C passed here some time ago reg arding the All Chiefs Budget.

Is that something new or I don't recall that last year. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That was part of the Core funding which came out to $44,000.00. MR. D. GOURLAY: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)- pass. Res olution 131: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not excee ding $6,895,800 for Northern Affairs, Local Government Devel opment, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. MR. H. GRAHAM: Committee rise? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the pleasure of the committee? Committee rise. SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLA CE SAFET Y AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. EJier: Committee, come to order.

We are considering the Estimates of the Department of the Department of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, Item 2.(a)(1) -the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we finished this afte rnoon just before 4:30, I was questioning the Minister on who was responsible for getting rid of - particularly with the PCBs. We are not talking about hazardous waste.

I don't want the Min ister correcting me saying are you talking about hazardous wastes because ever ytime I'm going to ask a que stion now I'm going to say it's PCB material or it's hazardous waste material or it's just garbage. So now I'm going to talk on - (Interjection) - When I refer to garbage, Mr. Minis ter, I'm not talking about the answers that you're giving, I'm really just talking about garbage. We were talking about the ones who have stored the largest amount of PCB material and I believe it to be Manitoba Hydro and Winnipeg Hydro.

As a matter of fact during questioning a little while back when we were Into the question period, I guess a couple of weeks ago, the Honourable Minis ter gave me all of the amounts of stored materials and it was quite a large amount, particularly for a small province like Manitoba. The Mini ster had made some remarks about how Prince Edward Island shouldn't be charged because they don't have large amounts. We do seem to have large amounts of PCB material stored .

I was wondering whether the Min ister has had any discussion with Manitoba Hydro and Winnipeg Hydro, particularly as they are the ones with the largest amounts of stored PCB material, as to recy cling and the cost of recy cling, whether the Provincial Government will be of some assistance to these people in rec ycling; whether, in fact, if and when we were able to ship it out of the province did the Provincial Government assist in the cost of shipping these materials to Alberta? There was another one. lt was the company from Ohio. Ye s, Sun .Ohio, the one that came and did some rec ycling for us.

Did the Provincial Government assist In the cost of that recy cling when Sun Ohio came to Manitoba with their big trucks and did some recy cling? Could the Minister bring me up-to-date on those questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The costs of the process that I referred to as part of the recycl ing that took place last summer through Sun Ohio, costs were borne by Manitoba Hydro. There Is a possibility that it will occur again this summ er. That is not finalized yet, but there are discussions with that in mind.

Some of the low-level PCBs at Manitoba Hydro's plant on Wave rley are stored in one of these huge storage tanks. There's a possibility they will carry on another se ssion of recy cling through Sun Ohio this summer and the costs of whatever PCBs were shipped out of the province In the past were also paid by Manitoba Hydro. The member Is correct. I thought the PCB Issue was one that was finished and I didn't bring back my sheets on PCBs with me. At any rate, the member is correct, I gave details of that and the information is on the record.

As I recall it, it does sound large but the member has to remember we're talking litres. If my memory serves me correct - I don't have the exact figure -but it was in the 12 ,000 litres In one particular category and I don't remember the numb er of transformers or capacitors, but those are in storage. Other than that there are no other concrete actions that have been undertaken except that every time whether Sun Ohio has come In, technical staff from Environment has been on-site and has been monitoring the operation all the way through.

As well, when the time has occurred to do some shipping out of the province, as it has occurred in the past, again technical staff was involved and consulted In terms of the proper procedures of carrying on that opera tion. MR. A. KOVNATS: I do have a little bit of an understan ding on the recycl ing of PCBs like the low concentrations of PCBs are able to be recyc led, high concentrations of PCBs, I think, require a more 19n

Tuesday , 14 May, 1985 concentrated effort , particularly, under press ure and heated -I've forgotten the terminolo gy, I do have it here - und er pyrolytic conditions. I'm not really that familiar with these terms. I used to be a parking lot atten dant and now I'm trying to talk about PCBs. Can the Honourable Minister give us any idea as to a comparison of heavy concentration of PCBs in this oil and lesser concentration of PCBs? Because I know the heavy concentrat ion has to be handled in a different manner. I don't need exact figures, Mr. Minis ter.

If you could just give me like half or 50 perc ent, 30 perc ent, 70 per cent, whatever. HON. G. LECUYEA: I heard somebody talk about exercise of the gun awhile ago and I know the member says he had physical fitness .as an atten dant. I know that he also had a mean whistle at one time as a referee of football.

When we're talking about low-level PCBs that are recycled and this process is only suitable or applicable to low-level PCB concentrati ons. as it would become a very lengthy process and a very costly process to try and apply it to higher-leve l PCBs. lt's a matter of recy cling that oil and continuously doing that and it would become a very lengthy and not at all an economically feasible process.

When we're talking about high-level PCBs, we're talking about levels, for instance, as were in that transformer that spewed some oil in Kenora rece ntly where there were concentrations of approximately 40 percent or 400 parts per million; and when we're talking about low level PCBs that are recycled as part of that process, we're talking about concentrations of 500 to 1, 000 parts per million.

Now when we're talking about a level which is not even considered as a hazard or as a danger, we're talking about trace amounts or the threshold limit, if I can use that term, that is not consid ered dangerous in any respect as 50 parts per million or less. MA. A. KOVNATS: As the Honourable Minister knows, I'm not one to try and create a panic, but I think . . . HON. G. LECUYEA: I believe I made a correct ion; I'm not sure. I thought I said high level concentrations were 400,000 parts per million. Apparentl y, I said 400 parts - 400,000 parts. MR. A.

KOVNATS: As I just started to say, I'm not one to try and cause a panic, but I see in the paper where there was a doctor, whether he was local or not, it was a letter to the editor where he was saying that the PCB concentration and the spill wasn 't as serious as what everybody has been making it out to be. But be that as it may, I think we have got to inform the public of the type of thing and I think the Mi nister and his department have to go out on a limb a little bit and be able to tell the public that the danger is very very slight or that there is a real danger .

After the clean-up at Kenora, and I criticized the Min ister for not doing something about it and advising every body that the danger was over if in fact it was, and I thin k it was, it would have done a lot to encouraging the people in the tourist indu stry and it would have done a lot with encouraging people to go back into that Kenora area because the danger was over. lt wasn't a matter of trying to make any political gains on that, but when I was suggesting to the Minister that he should make everybody more aware, the Minister seemed to take offence that he wasn't doing his job properly.

I guess I was inferring that he wasn't doing his job properly or his department wasn't by not informing the people in the manner in which I thought they should be Informed, not to scare them out of their wits but just to keep them apprised of what was happening. I think that's a most important thing. Have arrangements been made for Manitoba Hydro and Winn ipeg Hydro to accept the respo nsibil ity and are they confirmed and committed to the recy cling of PCBs in Manitoba at a future date, two, three years, whatever? Have they confirmed or are they committed to the cost of providing a plant to recyc le those PCBs?

HON. G. LECUYEA: If I hear the member correctly, he's asking whether either or both of these two utilities have ind icated that they themselves would implement a facility to destroy high level concentration PCBs. MA. A. KOVNATS: All levels of concentrations of PCBs. HON. G. LECUYEA: No, that is certainly not a route that the facilities have decided to take presently and it could be that following these discussions that are coming up, that we want to involve them in taking some of that kind of action.

But that takes me back to some of the comm ents we were making this afte rnoon, where we get into the re alms of fea sibility in terms of quantities that are involved, and concentrations. I just finished ind icating that they have disposed of or recycled some last summer and will probably be doing that again this summer, but at this point in time we're only talking about low level concentra tions of PCB. Manitoba Hydro has a number of considerations they are entertai ning right now.

One of them Is, they're considering the possibility of buying a unit such as the one that they've been contracting during the last summ er and possibly this sum mer, so that they . MA. A. KOVNATS: With Sun Ohio? HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s. So they'r e considering purchasing a similar unit to do just that with their low level PCBs this year and in the future. So I don't know where they're at in these particular considerations at the present time, but it is under active consideration. MR. A. KOVNATS: In this

article that I was reading concerning PCBs, it states that Ontario Hydro is in the market of rec ycling PCBs at this point. They admit it's not a growth market, but Ontario is in the market of rec ycling PCBs, and Ontario -the Min is.ter is shaking his head that they are not in the market. We ll, let me just read what it says here: " ... but even though the work will only last five or six more years, there seems to be no lack of organizations finding new ways to do the job. The latest is Ontario Hydro In Toronto which has come up with its own version of chemical destruct ion." 1978

Now I would believe that that's the recy cling of PCBs. Are they taking the lead? The Minister has said that he's got to see what's happening In other provinces. Well, I think right now we see that it's happening in Ontario and I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be happening in Manitoba at this point. If it's a matter of getting Sun Ohio to come up and do the job, then I think it's necessary that Sun Ohio be notified and they come up and do the job. Is it just in the planning stages to consider bringing somebody in to do some recyc ling or is there a definite commitme nt at this point? HON. G.

LECUYEA: As I understand what Ontario is . . . I do believe they also have been considering perhaps constructing a facility or a high heat intensity incin erator but they haven't got that far, in fact, as to making any decisions in that regard. The program that the member is refe rring to is the same one that Manitoba Hydro has used last year and Is considering using this year and is not yet finalized at this point in time.

But I do believe that Ontario Hydro, at this point, has either built a similar unit as the one that Manitoba Hydro has been using from out-of province, or is on the verge or just about ready to start operation of such a system for low level PCBs. But this is a very recent happening if it is in operation at this time. MA. A. KOVNATS: In this

article -and it's a little bit confusing; I've got to accept what people write and what people tell me -it says, "Meanwhile Ontario Hydro feels comfortable with its own scheme. We feel we have the best mousetrap, says Mr. Jackson.

We have tested it both in the lab and in larger experiments and we feel confident to move to what amounts to a fullscale indus trial process ." I think with the problem of PCBs that there has to be a working as sociation and I would hope that Ontario Hydro would keep Manitoba well informed on how they're ha ndling PCBs, and maybe we can take advatange of it also. - (I nterject ion) - Wel l, there's some discussion about a power sale to them if they ever get the strike settled. I think that with someth ing like this, Mr. Minis ter, there has to be co-operation right across with all the provinces.

Does the Province of Ontario allow Manitoba, or any other province, to ship PCB oil, mineral oil to Ontario for recycling? HON. G. LECUYEA: In answer to the last part of the question which Is, does Ontario accept PCBs from Manitoba? I suppose if they did, Mr. Chairman, it would have been easier for Quebec to send its PCBs to Ontario rather than having it cross Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. MA. A. KOVNATS: No, I think we're talking about a high-level low, so that's a different matter. HON. G.

LECUYEA: Presently, Ontario Hydro doesn't accept any PCBs at all from Manitoba and, as far as I know, from any other province. In fact, for the member's information, the process that Ontario is considering moving into, and already has, ind icate that the formula that Manitoba Hydro has been using Is cheaper than the internal process that they are considering implementing themselves; and that process that they are considering and part of the feasibilities they have been doing to move In that direction.

Last sum mer, for instance, representa t ives of Environment Ontario were here In Manitoba observi ng the Sun Ohio operation here in Manitoba. So they didn't have a process in pla ce last sum mer, and If they're moving in that direction, this would be absolutely very recent. And I would venture to say that, at this point in time, it's not in use, or if it Is it's very very recent. I do say to the member, again, they were here last summer to observe the process as it was being used here in Manitoba. MA. A. KOVNATS: Can the Minister bring me up-to date on a couple of things?

Are we still storing hazardous waste material at Gimli? HON. G. LECUYEA: Ye s, we are, Mr. Chairman. MA. A. KOVNATS: Let 's get down to radioactive material, and I know that that's through hospitals and through the City of Winnipeg. Are there any other locations in the province where they have the problem with radio-active material, or is Winnipeg the only location that pres ents this problem? HON. G. LECUYEA: Okay, I probably missed some parts of that question.

The low level radiation substances, particularly those that the member has referred to that are wastes ·in various institutions, and in particular hospitals, are presently done away through the detonation process at Brady Landfill Site approximately 12 to 15 times a year. So they are burned through a detonation process. Some of the radioactive substances also -I believe those are the ones from Pinawa - are ship ped out of province to Chalk River. MA. A.

KOVNATS: I am aware of some testing of ground areas not just around Pinawa but throughout · the province through a Dunn Drilling Company, and I don't know the reas on. The reason that they are doing test drilling throughout the province, is it to the possi bility of securing a location to store radioactive material underground? HON. G.

LECUYEA: The test ing of wells In the area of the underground research laboratory even before this, because we carried on some of that testing last year and even the year before, so it was to establish base data of the quality of the water in this area so that we would have sort of a background data against which to continue to monitor the qual ity of the underground water in that area.

What we dis covered in that process was that some of that water contained radiation levels in some cases which were above the threshold limits, and In some cases the owners or farmers were advised not to use the water for drinking purposes. Now as part of that process, many other indi viduals in a growing radius from the underground research laboratory have indicated that they also wanted their 1979

Tuesdey, 14 May, 1985 waters tested . They were worried in some instances that they may have water that would also show some of the same results, and some did, indeed. So we accepted to carry on the program over a much larger area that originally had been intended just to satisfy those who might have been concerned. We are satisfied that these levels of radiation in the water is naturally occurri ng in the rock form ations of that area as has been found to be the case in other locations with similar rock formations.

On the other hand, in the meantime, to try and assist these people who had the problem with the water that had radiation levels, in most cases, just margin ally above the accep table level, but still because it was above they were advised not to use it. There was the research program undertaken. I don't know if it was Initiated by the Atomic Energy Plant - and I believe it was - in Pinawa, to try and come up with the filtering system which would extract the radiation from that water.

I believe the research was done, either in the University of Regina or Saskatoon, one or the other, but the result of that research has produced a filter which, indeed, seems to do an effective job of removing the radiation molecules from the water. MA. A. KOVNATS: Can the Honourable Minister advise whether this was a natural radiation material or was it from some location that used radioactive materials? HON. G. LECUYEA: No, definitely from natu rally occurring origins. MA. A. KOVNATS: The Minister was talking about doing environmental studies to pick - just doing environmental studies.

Can the Minister advise how environmental studies can take place without a site location? How can the Minister go to the people of the Province of Mani toba and tell them that they want to do environmental studies, handling of materials in a particular area, without having a location in that area. Is the Minis ter working backwar ds, is what I am sayi ng? Do you pick a site first and then do environmental studies? Or do you do environmental studies first and then pick a site? HON. G. LECUYEA: I'm not clear, Mr.

Chairman, what the mem ber is seeking, because obviously when environmental studies or monitoring is done, it's done of either rivers or lakes and there's some of that that's ongoing either for mercury or for the quality of water for beaches, or there is mon itoring done of the atmosphere as I referred to it this afternoon in a variety of centres in the province; there is soil monitoring that's done, for instance, at various locations near the smelters in northern Manitoba to determine the effects of the emissions of those smelters - obviously we'd have to have a particular site location that we want to monitor before we can ever do any monitoring or study of the environment.

We will, for instance, if citizens in a particular area of Winnipeg are complaining about - I don't know whether it be noise, odours, or particular substances emitted to the atmosphere, we've been monitoring particula rly in relation to that site. Except for that study that I mentioned this afternoon, which monitored for a variety of parameters , which was done of general atmospheric conditions in a variety of cities, in particular Winnipeg, Thompson, Flin Flon, The Pas, and Brandon. Other than that - maybe the member wishes to clarify that question, I'm not sure. MA. A.

KOVNATS: Yes, I did, I wasn 't trying to catch the Minister in any particular question, it's just that I was being a little critical of the Minis ter in not picking sites to do this work at this point. The Minister has suggested that he's going to go to the public and ask them if they want these sites In their back yard. I think he's going to get a real good react ion from the people telling them, no thank you, you can put it in somebody else's back yard or in somebody else's area, but we don't want it because there is that slight danger of something happening.

So I think that what I'm suggesting to the Minister is that he just can't wait and go to the public and do all of these - asking the public if they want a location in their back yard or close by. I think what the Minister has to do is to pick sites and proceed . Is the Minister in disagreem ent? HON. G. LECUYEA: No, I wasn't aware, that's what I wanted the member to clarify what he was in particular referring to. Now I know he's referring to site selection tor the hazardous waste management program.

That had not been mentioned in the question, what reference he was making, so that's why I wasn't clear in terms of what he was attempting to get in terms of information.

In terms of site selec tion, we will be, first of all establishing site selection criteria, we will be on the basis of that, we would then choose some preferred sites, a number of sites that would respond to that criteria and from that limited number of sites that would at least initially seem to indicate that they would fall into the category, they might be suitable as a hazardous waste site, we would then carry on an In-depth environmental impact study as well as taking into consideration many other parameters such as transportation and distances from the main producers of the hazardous wastes, etc.

We would, on the basis of a few retained sites, then carry a more in-depth environmental impact assessment to determine which of those is best suited as the final choice. MA. A. KOYNATS: Then when the Minister was sayi ng about having hearings throughout the province, that's really just to keep the people sort of on a calm basis. The decision really will be made without too much input from the public of the Province of Manitoba because I think the expertise is going to come from the Minister and his department and he's going to have to say, this is where it's got to go.

I can't see any other way that you can do it. You can't jus t ask somebody , do you want it or don't you want it? 1 think you've got to use your expertise and pick those locations. HON. G. LECUYEA: Mr. Chairman, what we've said Is, we have to have the population of Manitoba knowing and aware and conscious of the need, first of all, for the Province of Manitoba to move in that direct ion of the necessity to establish a hazardous waste disposal 1980

program in the province. We want them involved In that process, we will mak the public aware of what the site selection criteria will be, we will, in fact, once we've gone to the point of establishing some potential sites, keep the public aware all along that process so there will be an ongoing pro cess of publi c input and involvement In that process.

Indeed, there is a great deal of technical expertise required and input required to make that process advance, but then we say we will not, from the moment we have indicated that this is a process, a program that we think Manitoba needs, from that point decide, well, we'll puat the experts at it and when they've finished their job, we take their best advice and implement it and keep the whole public In the dark. We have to have the two carry forward at the same time, because we can benefit from some of the errors that have been done elsewhere, and I'm not blaming them In any respect.

I think we should be blamed if we were to repeat these same errors. But in some Instances, because that has not occurred , this parallel moving forward with the best informaton, the best know-how we have, best technology that we know Is In place, using our experts and the expertise that has been di scovered elsewhere or comes from elsewhere, we will take all that into consideration, but we say it's Important to keep the public as an Integral part of that whole process . MR. CH AIRMAN: Order please. The level of background conversat ion is beginning to rise. The Mem ber for Nlakwa. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I think the Honourable Min ister has just confirmed exactly what I was trying to esta blish, that the hearings, or those that will be hearing and listening, are the public of the Province of Manitoba. Jt will be the government that will do the talking and the public will be doing the listen ing. lt seems to me that the sugges tion was earlier today that the public would do the talking and the government would do the listening, and it just didn't seem right that the expertise was going from one way to the other.

I am not saying the public of Manitoba don't know what they are talking about, but I am saying that the expertise is in the Minister's department. I don't think that I want to get onto that too much more, but I would like to slip over just to the training of the people and what expertise was put into the dangerous goods handling portion of it. Who did the government go to to get some expertise on the handling of dangerous goods?

Did they go to any of the trucking associations, the companies that do the trucking thr oughout the province - the chemical producers, companies of that nature - or did they go out-of province to get the expertise in writing up The Dangerous Goods Handling Act? HON. G. LECUYER: First of all, before I get on with the reply to that question, just a final comment on the previous Issue.

I don't entirely disagree with the Member for Niakwa, but I would certai nly hope that there will be a two-way dialogue, that we will both have an opportun ity to speak at these hearings; that is, the experts, the departmental staff and the public as well.

But, In order for the public to come at these hearings and provide an Input, I think we have a responsibility to Inform them, in advance of coming to those hearings, and that is why, when I referred earlier this afternoon to this comprehensive report that we will soon be making available, will distribute widely, we made the reports of the previous hearings available to the public who attended. Indeed, the public speaks more than they listen at these; they listened to others who made presentat ions, but the y come there to make presentat ions.

I want the member to realize that experts can make presentations at these hearings as well. Now, in reply to this question on the transportation and handling of dangerous goods, one of the Important programs that will be carried on is coming up soon. We refer to it as a training of the trainers semi nar, and that will take place, I believe, In Ottawa later on this month. They will then be back here to train some of the other staff at the Brandon Fire College.

There are also staff in that division who have gone through a number of sess ions, mostly outside the province - some of it, in fact, in the United States - to receive training in this area. The member has to realize that we have staff in that division who already have been responding over the years to a variety of hazards in emergency situations, or spills that present similar hazards that we will encounter under this program.

So there is already a good level of expertise,. at least within some of the staffs in that particular division and they will undergo further training at that particular session that Is coming back. Then all of the staff who are going to be on hand to respond to situations of hazardous spills, or situations that might cause hazards, will go to Brandon training college for some training. MR. A. KOVNATS: Can the Minister advise as to whether the province is offe ring any training facilities to transport drivers, people in the transport Ind ustry?

Is the province offer ing them any training so that they will be able to handle their vehicles In the manner in which is expected of them under this law? HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s, we are presently negotiating with our federal counterparts to set up an industry training program, also at the Brand on Fire College and that will be aimed specifiCally at the trucking Industry. MR. CHA IRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - the Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Last spring, the Minister circulated a draft of regulations to municipalities for the spraying of pesticides and insecticides. it subsequently met with a great deal of opposition and was changed. Is there a final draft of those regulations? HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s, that's the one I was refe rring to in reply to - I forget who raised that in the House last week. Ye s, indeed, the member is correct in saying that we had sent it out for consultation last spring. After the comments and the feedback came back, we redrafted the regulation.

We sent it back in the fall, incorporating many of the suggestions that were made as part of tha t feedback, and then we had meetings with 1981

TuesdaJ, 14 MaJ, 1985 representatives of the municipalities, the weed districts. There were interdepartmental discussions with staff of the Departments of Environment and Agriculture, there was extensive consultation that was carried out. That is primarily the reason why the final draft wasn't ready until just recently. That regulation was adopted, as I indicated, two or three weeks ago. Because of the lateness in adopting that re gulation, we said we would phase it in this year, and the government agencies, mun icipalities, etc., will abide with the system that was in place last year and previous years and will have it fully implemented for next year.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-48b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 48b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8a2b33157ac49546952f67dc6cfec179900885e6

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