Volume 2 PROV.INCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBL V OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, April 27. 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 62

April 27, 1973, Tape 1316, Page 1 - apb The House met at 11:00 a.m. ~r. Speaker, in the Chair • . ~- SPEAKER: Order! Morning REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of I1nance. !!_ON. J.C.CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): I would like to table, Mr. Speaker, a copy of the accounts of crown corporate agencies, boards, authorities and sundry funds administered by the province for the fiscal year that ended March 31, 1972. Thi• is a companio~ volume to the public accounts and it contains the audited statements of the various crown corporations and agencies.

There are copies to be distributed to honourable members. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mepiber for Bell Island. MR. S.A.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister ot Industrial Development. I am sure, Sir, that the honourable minister is hanging right on to his seat there--JIIOndering what it is that Ism going to aak him. I would like to ask the minister if he would inform the House if the government rece~ved a year ago a proposal from Canadian Javelin to construct a railway in Western Labrador to move iron ore from their holdings in the Julienne Lake Area?

HON, C.W.DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr. Speaker, we received several proposals from Canadian Javelin about a year ago, about twelve to be exact. We just left a meetin~ with these gentlemen and they agreed to resubmit most of their proposals on a more rational ground.

Some of the problems that we incurred on the way through in dealing with their previous applications were such things as - they had two different railway alternatives and a slurry pipeline envisaged and they applied for the ri~hts-of-way for all three, There were a few other lar~e areas - they wanted the complete water rightsfor the watershed for up there,but now they have agreed that thia is not necessary and ao on. We did recieve 6104

April 27, 1973, Tape 1316, Page 2 -- apb auch proposals and the company is resubinittintt anothar propo al shortly. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. HR.. M.WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question !-forning. to the ~inister of Tourism. Since he is not in his seat, I will direct the question to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. I have had representation from the sports commission of Goose Bay re the visit of the Canada Hockey Team this stD11111er to St.

John 1 s and 1 have been asked if the House, or the miniater would permit or ask permission or try to have the team visit that area. They have agreed to put on some recreation for them - possibly a fishing trip in our great lakes,if they did go up. I would like to ask the miniater if he would consider asking the team if they would like to go to Goose Bay and be entertained. HON • .J.G.ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF RECREATION AND REHABILITATION): The honourable the Premier has already sent an invitation to the Canada Hockey Team and there is an indication that they are coming.

At the present moment we do not know on what date and which people will be here. We have had a number of requests from various communities around the p~ovince. We will contact, possibly Mr. Eagleson, I would think,and attempt to determine where we can get some of these gentleman t.o visit while they are here.. -Certainly I will pass· along to the Minister of Tourism,who is now handling the total picture. the hor,ourable member's request and see what can be done to that effect. I would· suggest, if I may, that the honourable member might write a letter making it a formal request to the Minister of Tourism. MR.

MARSHALL: Order (3), bill no.(11). On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Credit Reporting Agencies." read a third time ordered passed and its title be as on the order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The St • .John's Housing Corpotation Act." read a third ti.me, ordered passed and ita t:tle be •• on the order paper. 6105

April 27, 1973, Tape 1316, Page 3 - apb Morning On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Establishment And Operation Of Public Par~ By The St. John's t-funicipal Council. " read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Establish The Newfoundland Crop Insurance Agency." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill,"An Act1 lirther To Amend The St. John's (Metropolitian Area) Act." read a third t:lme, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Telegraph Tax Act." read a third time, ordered pasaed and its title be as on the order paper. On 1110tion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Government (Election•) Act." read a third time ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social s·ecurity Aasessment Act, 1972, The Act No. 56 Of 1972." read a third time, ordered pasaed and its title be a on the order paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Revise And Consolidate The Law With Reapect To The ~arketing Of Natural Products." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. · On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act.'' read a third time, ordered paaaed and it a title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To· Amend The City of St. John's Act." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957," read a ~hird time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act .Further To Amend The Provincial Parks Act.'' read a third time, ordered paaaed and its title be as on the order. 1>a1>er. 6106

~pril 27, 1973, Tap• 1316, Pa~c 4 -- apb Morning the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Welfare Of Negl·ected Adults." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the ordex paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Disposal Of Waste Material.'' MR. RICKMAN, There 1• •omethin~ wrong with that, Respecting the diapo•al - "An Ac:t Reapectin~ The Disposal Of Waste Material." On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Disposal Of Waste Material." read a third time, ordered · passed and its title be as on the order paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Social Assistance Act." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be a• OD the order p&per. On 110tion, a bill, "An Act To Revise Existing Legislation 'Re111r,ecting ~11 Tett:!in V'!!h:i.cles." read e third t!'l'e, -,~dered pa.Hed and it• title be as on the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University Act." read a third time, ordered -paased and ita title be as on the order pa-per. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper.

On 1110tion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Trustee Act." read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order Paper. On motion, a bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Crown Lands (Mines and Quarries) Act.'' read a third time, ordered passed and its title be•• OD the order paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Historic Ob.1ects, Sites And Records ... read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the order paper. 6107

April 27, 1973 Tape 1317 On motion, a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957," read a third time, ordered passed and title be ~son the order paper Motion, second readinl' of a bill, ''An Act Respecting A Public Service Commisaion For The Province." MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, before we read the bill a second time there are a few preliminary remarks that I would like to make concerning this particular bill,· In the first place the general principle of this bill is to establish in this province an independent public service commission along the same lines as the similar,kindred cor'llllissions that are in existence with the federal gover,-.ment and in many of our sister provinces.

It also ·contains provisions to en,rain into the method and mode of appointment of civil servants the merit principle The provisions are set forth there in the type of detail,as they ought to be,of the t110de and manner by which the merit principle is to be arrived at and the regulations under which the c~111111ission is going to operate.

It is also of si~ificance, and I will go through certain parts of this bill that require and need probably more detailed elucidation, that this bill is contrary Jo the previ~us existing eivil Service Commission Act and will include virtually all civil aervants exce~t those that are listed in a certain

section to which I vill refer in a mOfflent. Now, turning the attention of the House. Mr. Speaker, to the bill itself: What we have in effect is the strengthening of the ~rofessional aspect of the ~ivil service itself. Permanent employees of the civil •ervice will be appointed by a commission and the commission will be appointed from the public service, which will have executive experience, and one of whom shall have served in the public service for at least ten years. Now I mi~ht point out that in review!~ similar le~ialation in other provinces, we found in ·one province, I believe it was in 6108 JM - 1

April 27, 1973 Tape 1317 British Columbia, where all of the commissioners hnrl been Appointed from the established civil scrvice,but only in that province. In the federal government they were just merely appointed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council without any stipulation as to where the compliment of the commission was goin~ to be drawn from.

We considered this and considered this fully and we thouRht th~t while we will be giving preference_witr respect to all three appointments to applications from the civil service,that we should not perhaps at this stage be bound to accept all three from within the civil service itself but certainly at least one of them. As I say this does not mean that more than one will not come from the civil service. The colllllissioners are given, Mr.

Speaker, under this bill. under section (6) of the bill,security of tenure in the same manner and ~iven the same status as the auditor general, the comptroller of t~e treasury,in other words thnt they arc servants of this !!ouse. While their salary is set by the Lieutenant Covernor-in-Council, th,:re is a protection there in

section (6~ to the effect that the salary may not be reduced by the Lieutenant Covernor-in-Council but it is set by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council.

In other words it is an effective attempt to make the Civil Service Co11111ission a truly independent body that can operate in an independent manner unfettered by any extraneous influences, Now I draw the House's attention also to the sections appearing on pages nine to eleven of the bill concerning the appointments and promotionR. this provides that there be no appointments or pr01110tions within the public service except on the recmmnendation of the commission itself.

Now that is extremely important,that there are to be ~o appointments or promotions to posts within the public service except on the recOl.'llllendation of the co~mission. This is one of the failings of the previous act wherein there were many, many categories exempted from the ambit of the public service or the then Civil · 610fi JM - 2

April 27, 1973 Tape 1317 Service Commia1ion, There were far, fAt too many and the result, well I do not think it profited us this mornin~,with the foR disaP'Pearing from the hills,to speculate on the results that occurred. But I think everybody really knows the results. The position here is that within the public service,under section (14) of the bill . .it is provic!ed that appointments within, appointments from without and promotions from within shall be on a merit systeM.

There are provisions in thisbill for the procedure of setting up adequate examinations,for the cataloguin~ of various positions in the civil service and the general approach to the appointment in the civil service itself on a merit basis. There is another item that I would draw to your attentior.: Included within the ambit of this act at the initial stages are going to be all of those posts, all of those departments that are listed in the first schedule. In the second

schedule there are those yet to be incluc!,•d ,..,,1 the re11J11on for not includinir ·them all is that when we are starting up something that is going to be in this province,really,without casting any dispersions whatsoever on what exists, something relatively new, there has to be ample and adequate time for the commissioners when they are appointed to set up the commission on a fair and equitable basis. ne,,•are goin~ to have to do an awful lot of study and they are going to have to do an awful lot of preparation. It was felt, after due consideration by everybody, that . tht(departments in the first

schedule are the only ones tha~ they can handle justifiably at the present time. Now it is significant to note that at the present time many of the posts in these departments do not even come within the ambit of the present Civil Service Colll!li&sion but it is the intention as eoon as possible and ae eoon as feaeible to include ~he it~ in the eecond echedule into the first

schedule of the act and there 1• a provision to allow the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council to do just that. There are also exempted from the provisions of the act 6116 JM - 3

April 27, 1973 Tape 1317 certain categories that are set forth in section (5) of the act and these are normal, usual cater,ories such as deputy ministers and associate and assistant deputy ministers that are normally and usually exempted from the provisions of similar acts such as this.

There was a certain amount of difficulty in determining when the cutoff point should be, whether it should come,as obviously I think everyone will concur that deputy ministers have traditionally and should remain the appointmen~ of the premier of the province and in consultation with the ministers responsible, There was a certain amount of debate as to how far down the line should thia~O· It comes in thi110111 down to assistant . deputy ministers but the ~~vernaent has authorized a policy statement to the effect that when an assistant deputy minister is employed that the selection will be made frOD1 a panel of ministers who are not the minister concerned himaelf in order to make it as fair and as equitable as it possibly can be.

This is an extremely important bil.l, Mr. Speaker. In the preliminary remarks and perhaps I could expand quite a bit more on them but as I say the purpose of the act is really to appoint an independent public service conmtiasion. This bill has been gone into and studied by committee after committee. It has been almost strangled from time to time in red tape before it came to the position where it now is. It has received the study and we have received the views of all sectors and se~ents of the government and the public service, It enshrines the merit principle and as 6111 JM - 4

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 1B-1 I aay,it includes all civil servants or all public servants as they are referred to and it is in conformity, Mr. Speaker, with the report of the Royal Commission on Economics Prospects. I do not think we can let the opportunity really pass tn she"" exactly what thi bill is intended to replace.

Now, first of all, may I say at the outset,before I make these remarks, we have heard an awful lot of remarks made that I pacifically myself and I know many people on thi side of the Hou•• object to violently,with reapect to this person and that peron being a political flunky or this person or that person being a political party hack. This bill will exclude certain - I should add this - excludes in the act certain contractual employees. It is obvious that when a govemment takes power there have to be certain political appointments.

Now this is not in the craasus way that the opposition have put it from time to time. This is not for the purpose of political . patronage aa such but in the way our system operates. our government operates or any democratic govemment operatu, you, as a political party, have to have certain employees with respect to the carrying on of certain policies. These are, Hr. Spe.iter, in this bill, dealt with. They will be dealt with. They are not as many u are pointed out by the opposition. They are on a cont~actual basis.

S0 0 the succeeding government will not find or ua when the tillll! comes and the contract expires, we will be able not to renew the contract or the succeeding government,when it comes in,if it wants to renew a contract to aomebody, it may. 'rhe individual who is subject to the contract knows he has it for a specific term. His employment is for a specific term and it may not be terminated. Unfortunately, and I say thia 0 when we came to power there had been - I do not think anyone will deny this after twenty-three years - there had been more political appointment• to the public service than there ought to be.

We should never really get to this ... etage. A person in the public aervice is in a professional position. It is a pretty frustrating thing for a 1Ull when he gets up to forty 6112

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 IB-2 and forty-five and h• i• looking forw•rd to th• next 1t•p upward and.hi• •uperior, whoever it 1•, happen• to retire and h• find• somebody taken in from the outside and put above him. Now thia could •till happen but it would happen on an independent bui• by the Public Service Commission purely and solely after coasidering the merits and abilities of the parson to discharge hh dutia,and on no other basis.

So this will end this procedure then forever and a day. ov at th• coma-back,l do not want to delve into per•onalitiea ad indiYidual• •uch aa the opposition has with respect to peopl• frOII ti• to time. 1 think we do have to nota that with the pre9ent Cinl Service Commission we have as the chairman of the coaai9a1QD a former meri>er of the g-.yem•nt, a man 1 might • ., who when 1 vu on the opposition side 1 found to be a thorough gatlaum and a fine man and a great fellow.

However, the fact of tbe matter ia when you are talking about an independent Public Service eo-iaaion~ I do not think that this type of appointment •hould really have been made because, the old aaying, not only auat justice be done but it must appear to be done,and it does not invoke confidence in the Civil Service COllllliaaion. l say that with ab•olutely and completely no der~gatory attitude at all tovarde the gentleman c~cemed, the chainian of the Civil Service Commission who was himself,before he entered politics, a civil servant and 1a undoubtedly a fine gentleman.

The •- way with the other appointmeJlts that were made. One of tbea bad been - it is nec .. sary to say this and l would not know these other two gentlemen if I tripped over them~ one of them heel been a former candidate in the Gander by-election that occured in 1967-1968 and another one had been actively engaged, I believe,politically in Grand Fella. Nothina against tha for thia. Hora power to them,but it is nece aary in thia province to appoint a Public Service Commiaion that ia completely and absolutely independent and has the confidence of the public. 6113 ...

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 Not that these gentlemen would not have the confidence of people per ae but as I say, the confidence of the general public with respect to it. We have to, as I ay, strengthen the base oft,• public service. We come and I make one reference add I would lrk~ to make a reference becauae I think it is significant,with respect to the present operations of-the commission,just to point out 'the necessity from an independent viewpoint of a change.

Thess were references in "The Economic State and Prospects of Newfoun:iland" the commission that is often reported from time to time,which was independent in nature. On page 482,with respect to the . ' .lo-.> general government and administration,it said that over the years the Civil Service Coll1111ission, with a star~ of at the most four or five, was almost completely relegated to the minor role of recruitme~t into the junior ranks.and then they made comparison• with other provinces. It went on to say that by default thP. de!'llt'tments have assumed considerable recruitMnt responsibilities of their own.

There area  of free choice have been widened considerably by taking advantage of

section 6 of the Civil SErvice Commission Act,quoted above,which allowed the Lieutenant Governor-in-council to exempt certain categories or posts from·the ambit of the act. It is significant to note in this act that that provision is not here. The Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, the Cabinet, has no right .to exempt from the ambit of the provision  of the act -IY cateaoriea that come within. the area. This is an independent u I ay, truely a incere at~empt to appoint an independent ._ coamiission.

The consequences have been, the report considers that over seventy categories,and that was up to the date of the report which was the end of 1967, over s~ty categories or posts bad been specifi~ally exempt from the ~it of the Civil Service Comission. So that in actual fact what the Civil S•rvice Commission was doing was considering appointments to relatively junior and minor posts.and in certain caae  they had beea e:nmpted froa the provisions there. 6114

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 It goes on to· say that it is impossible to know how many persons had been thus exempted. The range of posts is very wide indeed including, as it does, professional,technical IB-4 employees as. well as positions of clerical or administrative nature. At the policy level of government it is clear that those parsons working in the administration who are closut to the government must be in general accord with the government philosophy.

That is an allusion, of course, to the necessity of having a certain amomat of political appointments, to use the word of the other side, but they are not political appointMnts u such. They are appointments made for the purpoae of carrying out the policy area o_f the govemment which bas !)11en elected. This fact is acknowledged and provided for in other civil service acts without wording similiar to

section {6)quoted above. We have provided for it here with respect to the are- of contractual employees that do not come into the permanent civil service,that are easily able to be changed when their tenor expi~es. Similiarly,in a province such as Newfoundland it may be to the provinceil advantage to hire technically qualified people on a abort term,contractual basis,recog~izing that protessionals are highly mobile individuals uninterested in a classified dvil service job with a comfortable pension on retirement.

One is 1 .. s confident however about exemptioni:; for positions of a clerical or administrative nature. The door seems open for political patronage. That, Mr. Speaker, is in essence really what happened. The fabric of tbe civil service has to be strengthened and this b certainly one manner of ·doing it. 1 will reiterate again .that we had an awful lot of talk on the other side,from the nervous Fellies whom we got in, abe>ltt the fact·that there was goiog to be great witch hunting and what the heck have you. There was, Mr. Speaker, no witch 6115

Apr:11 ~/ 1 1~7] ·.i:ape 1.J,o hunting as •uch. We •aw when we came in that there were people who bad been appointed on a bai1 1 let us put it that way, than merit ,who had been put into the permanent civil service ar, such. As su~h there was and there really is no means whereby .u~-:, they can be nor would we want to interfer with the civil service as such. The fact of the matter is that this type of procedure has to stop if we are going to progress in the manner in the province as we must.

We must have a strong, hd.e_perdent c.:.vil service in which the public has·confidence and which has confidence in turn in the publics' representatives, theiJ, elective representives.

I do not think there was anything that probably the other administration had done which - or the other crowd over there u t,!-t honourable member refers to from time to time - which ia more degrading and probably more damaging to the morale and to the general ecoaomic, social, political well-being of this province than the procedure which had grown up of exempting from the ambit of the working Civil Service Commission>such u it was, ao ~y positions and the consequential appointment on basis other than merit itself. Now, in concluding, ·1 might aay there is also a

section in this bill to the effect that this act ha_s yet to be p,roclaimed. It will be proclaimed as •oon as;,oaaible but there 1• still a ,reasonable smeunt of work that baa to be done. It took quite a long period of time in order to come up with the draft which is now before this Bouse. I might say there will be certain amendments in c011111ittea stage that have been suggested by th~ various bodies,that the goveTDMnt has accepted.which do not . ,,,. ____ affect the principle of the bill but probably make its working more effective. It has to~• proclaimed.

As I say, there are regulations that have to be drawn up. The appointments to thi~ body will be from people who are ~ecognized u •ucb, u being thoroughly and completely independent, untarnished,if tarnish is the word ( it 1• not the word to use) with no political eavolvement whatsoever, but who are appointed on the basis of 6116

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 1B-6 their own merit and their capacity to invoke really and foster. and strengthen the merit principle of appointment and promotion wit~in the civil aervice,and no other basia. Theae regulation  have to be drafted. The independent commissioners have to be appointed. When we are ready to take that next step, then obviously the legislation will be proclaimed. Finally, alao 1 might say,it ia by way of a personal note,that this bill in easence contain• the same gena of a bill that vu introduced by myself when I waa in oppoaition,that tka preaent opposition then defeated.

It will be vary interesting to aee now whether they are really going to support the position et forth in thia bill, ~n other words, whether they have had a change of heart or whether they are ~oing to support it. Mr. Speaker, in concluding I will say that I feel that this bill is a bill that goes a long .way and perhaps it can go a long way !i.=t?.ar .md certainly the door will not be clcsed to examinir.g, to see how it operates and to see whether it needs to be strengthened. If it doe• need to be atrengthened, it will be so. In the meantime, 1 a happy to present it to this Bouae for aecond reading. Mil.

IIEAJlY: -Mr. Speaker, I do not know if you would call it a change of heart or not but we do not disagree with the principle of this bill. The bill itself, Mr. Speaker, i• not all that the minister painta it to be. There are too many outs in thia, Sir. there are too many exemptions. For instance, contractual employees an eumpted from this bill, temporary employees, seasonal employees and part-ti.Jlle employees. there are still, Sir, all kinds of ways that the hiring of people, political appointments can be manipulated, despite vhat the minister says.

The bill is good as far as it goes, Sir, but I think the government should have gone a atep further. Row, the minister talks about political appointments to the · Civil Service Commiaaions. Well, Sir, this bill i• no different than the old Civil Service Commission Act in u much u the 6i17

April 27 • 1973 Tape 1318 Lieutenant Governor-in-Council will appoint the member of this commission. That could be construed. Sir. as being political. Nothing wrong with that. That is a fact of life. That is the way it is. Nothing can be done about that. Nothing wrong with . it. Sir. unless we do away with our political system and set l.8-/ up a dictatorship. We do not know who these gentlemen are going to be. I hope there will be a lady on the new commission. They have to be appointed by the Lieutenant Gov.ernor-in-Comcil and that is the government and the government are politicians.

So what is so different about that than the way it was done before? Well, the minister laughs at that. Well. the minister will be one of the ones who will be called to make a decision down there on the eighth floor. I am •~re that he might be influenced in some way or other by what the Minister of Finance will haw to say or the honourable the Premier will have to say about who go•• on that committee. The minister is a politician, I believe.

Th• way the Minister without Portfolio talb about· politician :,ou would avear it waa a dirty word; ~- Speaker, I cannot COffl1'ete with whatever is goi~ on out there in the corridor. It sounds like sorebody is .cracking the whip. So there is really not that much ~ifference in the old Civil Service Commission Act, which is going t'o be repealed and replaced by this. It is merely an· ~pdatin~ of the old act. It was badly needed and we agree with it in principle. It is s0111ething which NAPE has been fighti~g for for some time.

Well 1 Sir, I would not apologize for the fact that it is politicians who have to make the appointments. The minister today is so aelf-righteous over there, so sanctimonious, talking about the 09POsition involvin~ personalities. Twice in this Rouse, Sir, we saw the minister drag in a member's mother and then drag in a member's father and then have the ~all to accuse the opposition of dragging personalities into this House. Well, Sir, s0111etimes you cannot help brin~ing personalit~es into it. You cannot help it sometimes. 6116

Arril 27, 1973 TAPE 1318· IB-8 I only wish.this act could be retroactive to .JRnuary 18, because, as it was pointed out by the ~inister of Education who was flun, out of the cabinet, that honourable crowd over there could teach Joey new tricks. So they could. Sir. We have seen more political appointments in the last fifteen or sixteen months, per capita, than we have seen in twenty­ three years in this province. It was drawn to the attention to the Premier here, on one occasion, about the wife of a well-to-do lawyer.

You should have een the honourable Premier trying ~o weaael his way out of that one, Sir, takin~ on the wife of a well-to-do lawyer, without going to the Civil Service Commission, for $8,00 a year - c~letely demoralizing the staff of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation. What happened over at Exon Rouse? The story was never told. What happened over at City Welfare on Harvey Road. These were not people taken on on a contractural basis - these were put in civil service jobs. That 1• somethinR that we never did, Mr. Speaker.

Granted, ve were probably guilty - I wa~ myself when I w~s mini~ter of the department - of exempting certain positions from the Civil Service Co111111i1sion. That is the way things were done. Sir, we never, to my knowledge - Yes, we did on one occasion, and the Minister without Portfolio was in this House, and what a fuss he raised about it • . It was an appointment down in the Department of Mines.

Agriculture and Resources to a civil service post that wu not advertised, That vu the only time in twelve years that I have been in this House that I remember that matter beir3 raised~· Sir, and the gentleman today bu got a promotion. He is promoted and working now for the Department of Rural Development. That was the only time to my knowledge, Sir. that it vu done. It was wrong. It ahould not have happened. It wu equally .. wrong probably to exempt positions from the Civil Service Commiasion ao that the department could have a free hand to hire the kind of person that they wanted to hire.

So. in that respect, Sir, it is an improvement. With my old trade union background, Sir, I have no choice but to go along with 611!i

April 271 1973 Tape 1318 IB-9 thi• because anything that would eliminate abuse, anythin1 that would eliminate getting a job bued on court relationa 1 relig:loQ 1 because you belong to this organization or that organizatiosi or you belong to that society or this society I whether you are wearing that 'kind of a ring or this kind of a rin1 - aewr did agree with 1t 1 Sir. It is against my old trade unioa priad.111•• That baa been happening. I would ay moat of the abuse and hiring prac;tices iD this civil Hrvice are not the fault of the politicians at all u my honourable friend would lead thi• Bo1.111e to believe.

The fault rested, I would aay a good 118DY timu ,with the top civil servants bringing in their friends and relatiou. · The ~l~t;ic~ana had to bear the brunt of it, bad to accept the blame for it•when this happened. I never did agree with it. I did not agree with it when I was in the trade union 11.oveaent. As a utter of fact if my honourable friend had ••en the contract , that · I n•BOtiated with DOSCO maybe he llight be able to improve on this bill today. Thia is the aort of thing that I hope that this bill will get at.

The pollticiaaa are not a guilty now, u the Miniater without Portfolio would 1,ad thia Bouae to believe. There are other people who are aora guilty, pick up the phone and call and aay, "Me son" or ''Me driughter .". Son of.,a well-to-do lawyer - I hava seen them • "ho get the job• iD the •-r ti- 1D this province. Suunner relief? The sou of the well-to-do people, I the la,yers and tha business men,. they pull strings. I know. I had the pressure on me when I vu llinistar dova. in social servicH and Rehabilitation. You would be surpriaad, Sir, how they could worm their way in.

Fantasticl I could resist it but they would manage to get in there so.. how or other. They would pull a few strings. Move around in the right cocktail set and you had her made, ·your son or dauther vu on for .the aummer. They did not need the joba. The pCNn", old people of thie province wno are etruggltn1 to try to educate their children and put them throuah, their son• or daughter• did not a•t the jobs and they are not gettina th• today. 612tr

April 27, 1973 TaJM 1318 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Name namea. MR. NEARY: Name names? No, the minister said h• did not wat P•r!!onalities brought into this House. No, Mr. Speaker, I would not stoop to that level in this honourable Hou••• 11-10 So,Sir, I hope that this bill will plug some of these loopholes. I have no doubt but it will but there are still a lot of outs in this bill, Sir. The minister has left it wide open and exempted the Premier's office. The Premier's office is expemted from this bill. She ia well blocked down there oow.

It will be as big as the United States Army probably after this piece of Legislation goes through and anybody that comes along looking for a job in the future will be stowed a,ay down in the Premier's office. It i  so big now, Sir, that the Prem.er is talking about putting up a ow building. This building is not big enough. He is moving the mii:.iater dawn 1D the Phillip Blrl.ldiDg down here on Elizabeth Avenue~ even put in a new executive privy for him down there a couple of weeks ago,so I have been told.

Afraid of the bacteria 1D the ordinary persona privy down there? ~y __ had to knock down walls and petitions. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not true. MR.. NEARY: Yes, it is true. Spent two ·or three weeks down there drilling holes and knocking down walls to get an executive privy in for the minister. He has c0111e a long way from Duff's Supermarket. Sir, I am sure that NAPE will welcome thia piece of legislation. I approve of the principle of it. Probably the most significant aspect of it. Sir - the minister did not mention this at all - 19 clauae 20, offences. Just listen to this, Mr. Speaker.

"A person shall not directly or indirectly endeavour to influence improperly the commiHion, any member of a board of examiners · referred to in

section 15 or any employee of the commission with respect to the appointment of hi1DSelf or any other p•r•on to the 6121

April 27 ,- 1973 Tape 1318 U-11 p'Ublic service or With respect to promotion of himself or any other employee in the p'Ublic service (2) any person who violates any of the provisions of subsection l is guilty of an offenae and liable OD

summary conviction of a fine not exceeding $500 ad in default of payment to imprisonment for a term not excuding thirty day." Well, Sir, if that ia strictly inforced half of that honourable crowd on the other side of the House will be impri oned before e month is out. They will all be wearing their striped eui.ts with their number across the front, Sir. I would like to know what is meant. I would like for the cdnister ta explain what is meant in this clause by improperly.

Does that mea nov that if my honourable friend from Harbour Main ha a request from une of hie contitueuu up there for a recommendation,for a job in the public aervice,that the ~inister cannot sit down and write a recommendation,that could be miinterpreted? Could C~uit mea.u that he is using impnpc!: :!.::flueuc• on the commiHioa.? AH HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is that improper'? I wonder • . MR. NEARY: Well, I do not know. I would like to Jmow what - maybe it will not be improper if the members of the govemment do it.

If the members of the opposition do it you might be wearing handcuffs, Sir, before the tamp 1 on the envelope. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Does the minister take any glory for ramming those down our throats? MR. NEARY: I know the minister tried to ram the estimate  through the House, $600,000,000 in - MR. ROBERTS: The least · successful house leader we have ever had, Sir. MR. NEARY: That is right. · God, how we miss poor old Lea Curtis in this House, Sir, how we miss him. So, Mr. Speaker, I contend js good as the bill is,there are too many exemptions in it. There a-re too many ouu.

There are too many way left open to mini t r• end their official  to 6122

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 manipulate people into jobs. The minister is trying to tell us this is all finished, no more political appointments. Nonsense, Sir. Absolute nonsense. The thing is left wide open. All this act hu done, Sir, is to do away with exempting jobs outside the civil service, That is about all it has done. It ha• laid down a penalty for anybody who might try to unduly influence or improperly influence the commission. IB-12 I would like to know, Sir, if a phone call to the chairman of the coamiissioni ''My name is (-). I represent the District of Bell Island in the provincial Rouse of Assembly.

I had a phone call this morning from a young lady who is interested in a job as a atenographer in the Minister of Finance's office. I wonder, Sir, if this young lady will be getting an interview with the coudHion7 11 would that be improper? What is improper? 'Ihe minister ha• dealt with thi•. Will he tell us? Especially now, Sir. when tha voc~tional schools are clusin~. I will be getting nmaerous requests from young men and young gentlemen who will want a letter of recommendation. Would it be improper for me to send the letter of recommendation to the Chairman of this cOllllllisaion?

I would like for the minister to tell us whether it is or not. You talk about fairness in this province, Sir. You will be afraid to sit down and dictate a letter, afraid you might wind up in the hoosegow. So, when ~he minister is closing this debate on second reading I would like for him to explain this part of the act because it ir going to affect my honourable frieucla over there as much as it is going to affect me. - more so, The oaly thing is that the government in power has the majority, They can ~usa their majority any way they want to.

They can coae dova on poor old individuals like ua over here like a ton of brick.. The minister has to approve the action. The minister ia not going to giYe hia consent to proaecute the Miniater of Finance if he is asked to recommend a man for a janitorial position 6123

April 27, 1973 Tape 1318 IB-13 down at the General Hospital•• be was asked to do the other d~y becauae I aent the gentleman to him. Be came to aee • and I said "Who ia your •mber"? Re d:ld uot know it firat. Be . lived up at luckaaatera Circle. Be did aot know vho bia · member vu. I must confesa, Si.r, I did not know either. I had to do a little · digpng before I found out that it was in the diatrict of St. John'• West. I eaid "Well, ~o ad au your member." 6124

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Paaa 1 - MRW I presume he went down to aee hi• member. It would have fixed him up down there cleaning up the privy. I have to come down and see that. I have heard quite a bit about that new executive privy down there, Sir. It :la coffee talk. Dowu in the barber ahop, they are all talking about it. · You could not hear your ears down there for two week.a with the drill• going. I do not know if they have heated toilet auu there or not, Sir. lut, Sir, the principle of the bill ia aound •. We welcome it. It bu not gone far enough.

There an some thing• that have to be explained by th• miniater. The minuter talked about this adminiatration not going on a witch hunt. It 1a taking them a little while, Sir. They have learned their leaon abo-1t witch hunU .tnd about police raida and all thia aort of thing. They learned their lesaon about that. The backluh they got vu tremendous. It was terrific, Sir. Their popularity zoomed dowmrard overnight. The Minister of Finance has learned that witch hunts do not pay off. Re haa learned that. AN BON. MEMBER: Wait. MR. liEAKY: No, ve will aee. There are going to be a few more witch hunu.

But, Sir, the MiDiter of Finance has had hie eagte eye oa oae of thee appointmenta, like the Civil Service CommiHion and Che Vorlmen'• Coarpenation Board and all thee. He ha• had hia eagle eye oa. it. He has had hie periacope up. It vu not a paychological moment to zero in on these. They are taking the long way around, Sir. They are dawn now off Australia with •this bill - dOWD off Australia. They are getting there. By the time they steam up the three present aitting . .. aeabera of the Civil Service Commission will be replaced by political appoinbleilta. Oh. yea, it is true.

They will be replaced by political appointments. The minuter baa not told us what will happen to these bODOUrable gentlemen, whether they will ·be retired, pensioned, given new joba or jua t what will happen to these gentlemen. I would like for the hODOurable minister to explain that when he close  the debate. 6125

April 27, 1973 Tapf! 110. 1319 2 With these hew remarks, Mr. Speaker, 1 do not think thel'f! i• anything else that 1 can say about thf! bill except we approve of it in principle. We wish it had gone a little further. Maybe when we take over two or three years from now, ve will put eoae tef!th into it ounf!lves. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for just a few brief mome11te on this bill which has been introduced here and vorked OD by the honourable RoU11e Leacler for aome time. Thia ia a major atep forward, Mr. Spe4ker, deapite what the hoDourable gentlellAD for lell Island has said.

Ally similarity b11tweea Chia bill and the Civil Service Commiaeion Act i• certainly purely coincidental. When you look at sec~OD 12 and

section 13 of this bill, it is revolutionary in this province anyway, I do not know if there are similar aectioue in the other provinces. It aaya: ""o appointments nor promotiona to poate within the Public Service ahall be made except OD the reco..eadatioo of the Commission." That is completely different from the aituatioo which exiat:ed under the Civil Service Commission Act where in the firet place podtiou could be ueapced if the govenmeat decided ~ey abould be, and that decision wu frequently made. One of the reaaom why chat decision was frequently aade, Mr.

Speak11r, vu that the present Civil Service CommiHiou has ao expertise whatsoever in the field of 11ersoanel management nor in thl! fiel _d of exai11ing techniques nor ia any of Ch• . akilla which are nece•aary if you are goiag to decidl! oa appoiatmeata OD a •rit buia or promotiona on a·-.r1c baaia. The nev COlllliaaiOD to be appointed under this act will havf! to have these akilla and will have to employ staff who have these skills or Chia will aot work ac all.

By the paaaage of this act it become& mandatory that the people ap1'0t,llted co the Public Service Commision muat be people appointed OD the bul of merit in th., first place. It will only be political appointw.nca in th• ena• if th• g1:1v11n1111enc appoint them. It would be far too dugeroua for a11y govl!l'llmP.nt to appoint two or thr11P. political appoiateea, to re11ard somebody by appoi11tment to this c011111iasion,becausP. they could makf! a ahainblP.s of the whole civil service. 6126

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Pa~• 3 Aa far as I can see, Mr. Speaker, there is going to ~ave to be somebody appointed to .this commission from outside the province, soa,ebocly who has experience rdth the federal government or one of the other provincial governments,in the field of personnel work and in the field of this kind of work, Somebody with a lot of that kind of experience ia aoin1 to have to be appointed and I do iioc know whether we have anyone in the province nov with that kind of experience.

I can aHure you that this government are not going to be silly enough to do anything other than appoint three very able people to thi Public Service CommiHion, because the results will be a shamble for the sovernment and for the civil service if they do not exactly know whac they are doing. Under seceion 13, Mr. Speaker, a revolutionary change, "All appointments and promotions. to posts_ within the Public Service shall be ude from within the Public Service except where in the opinion of the Coaisdon, it i  not in the public interut to comply with thia requirement." It la wt fi>r the government to decide.

It does :iot say~ere in Che opiDion of the Lieuteaant Governor-in-Council it is not in Cha public intarut.'' It s.,.s, "except where in the opiDion of Cha Coaais•ion it i• oot in the public intereat." We are goin1 to ba completely in the haada of Chi coaai sion u to whether appointments and promotiona must be a.de from within the public service. The bill is a complete departure froa the put practice. I also regret, Mr.

Speaker,· that when an attempt is being __ de to cl.11nge or reform a situation, it should be met with such cynicism as the honourable member for Bell ldand demonstrated and as ome of the Mdia uy demonstrate. We all know that it is poHible to set around •ar pieca of legislation. It is a question of haw auy it .is. Under t:h:ls particular act here, it is going to be iapoHible in most rupacts to get around it at all. It exempts very few po~·1e1ona from the purview of the Civil Service COllllllission, only contractural employees or ome employees in the Premier'• Office, seasonal employees and temporar, employees.

Othewbe everybody is subject to this act but '"ith the 6127

April 27, 1973 Tape~- 1319 Pas• 4 exception of deputy ainiater• and &Histant depaty mima&ar• vboH appoin~nts are the prerogative of the Premier; priY&te •ecretaria, executive special assistants, the staff of the Lieutenant Covergor'• eatabllahmeot, chairmen and med>era of boards, firemen, pollceaeo ccl penitentiary staff. There are very few uceptious. 'l'his is a rfl'Oluttonary departure and instead of being at with any degree of "Cyllicaa at all, 1 would thi.Dk that it would be much more vh4:>leaome for us to ••• what happens in the next year or two once thia act is proclaimed ~ the coaauaaiou 1• appointed. HJ".

Speaker, if there is going to be in this province a continual at~tude on behalf of the media ·(1 am thinking in particular of one paper) to any movu made to change thing• and to UJ'f refona that are bcou1ht ia, whether they are conflict of intereat or whatever, then it will bee•• obvioua to everyoae, that it ie uaeleaa to attempt to 1111:ke any ;;.unaea; t?--£t ;c;a are going to aet ia.o credit for it; that your aotivea are going to be doubted; that it does not .. ,eer what you attempt to do,for aotivu and sinister intentions are going to be • ucribed to you and therefore, the only conclusion for politiciaDII to come to will be that it ia uaeleea to attempt to make any c:lumges because you will get no credit if you do. - 1 hope that that 1a not the way that thia revolutionary legialation 18 aet with. the honourable gentleman •aid that he hoped that osae of the IUllben of the coaaaiHion would be a lady.

Well I would be all for that if we can find a suitable woman for one of those three poaiUou. She certainly would have to t,e qualified. Aa the honourable ...,._, the House Leader, baa mentioned, there 1a no way of bringing anybody out from under the ambit of the act. I have had doubts about the wiadom of that but that is being decided, therefore, ve have to aake sure that the Public Service Colmd.ssion ia a top-aotch one. The honourable gentleman wondered what 1a illll)roper influence. Well improper influence 1• certainly not one of ua vriUug this coaaiaaion 612b

April 27, 1973 Tape DO. 1319 Page 5 ' . and recommending John Jone• or Shirely Jone for a poaition,becauee th• comiHio11 will juet file that away. They are aot 10101 to pay any,atteatio11 to it anyway.

An attempt to improperly influence th• comd.Hion would be to phone them up and threaten them, "lf you do aot appoint ao aad ao, l will certainly make it hot for you"or•t will tr:, to aee that you are not reappointed or that your staff will be cut dawa or some action like that" or ''We will get you when we get back into power''or eome statement like that, some threat or improper suggestion or promise of a favour if they deal with that person. That is improper influence.

We are all going to be perfecUy entitled to suggest to the COllllliaaion that if somebody approach ua or one of our constituents that hi.a application be given aerious consideration. There ia nothing improper ia. that. The commiHion wil,l proceed oa. and make its own deciaioaa. It 1• quite clear, I think, what improper influence would be. lt ia attempting to prOlliae a favour to the commiaaion to get them to appoint someone or threatc them,if they do not appoint aomebody. then yo•J 11r~ eotng to make itt in aomeway or other,difficult for them. I think that that is clear.what 1a aeant by improper influence.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is a completely revolutionary departure . . I must confeH that I have some fears about it. lt will be a auccesa if we have three good people and a good staff for this Publia Service Commisa:ion wh.o know what· they are doing. The ·promotion 1a going to be i,y merit and there are to be written examinations, tests anct the rest of it. They have to know what they are doing. They have to be very skilled in Chia kind of work and thia is what we have to look for, 'rbe government have aobody in mind u yet. We have no one ia. mind for ei.ther one of thue positiona.

A search ia going to have to be undertaken aow, vi.thin the next couple of months, to find the right people. I congratulate the Bouse Leader on all the work he has done on Chia. I hope that we will be ~uccessful in getting good people and that they will emulate the Federal Civil Service Commission and have a record aa good as Cheirs. I very seldom heard the Federal Civil Service C01111iHion criticized _. 612!i

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Page 6 I think, therefore, Mr. Speaker, that this i  a aajor •tap forward in thu province. MR.. EAllLE: Mr. Speaker, I would jut like to take the opportunity to congratulate the honourable K111i1ter without Portfolio and the Houae Leader 011 brill.11111111 thil progre11ive legi1latio11. In 1plte of the cyDic11m with which it hu been mat OD the other ide, I think it i9 indeed a very progruaive atep. I do not think •DY of us OD th1• aide or on the other aide are incliDed to think that we have •truck the liillesmium by •DY ua111.

We know that any particu1ar legidation i9 not going to be the do-all and cure-all for everythiDg that has happened in the paat. It ia a -jor •t•p forward and it ii certainly a •tep in the right direcUi;,11. I 11:1.ght aay that going back. a little bit,the fonaer gDftraaent were indeed very fortuaate in iDheritia.g from the Coaaiaalon of Gcweraaent da,a •oae very vell-traiued and extremely able civil servants. Fortuaately 1 aome of ·them are •till with ua. Tbue men were atremely vell-traiaed iu their particular flelda and they have been of invaluable aeni.ce to t:be 1overmaent.

UnfortUDately, some of their beat efforts were fruatrated by the~ of ataff that 011 occaiou they had foisted upon th• ChTOUgh favoritiam and other meau. It vu a very deplorable aituation which devaloped over the yeara. I t:hiDk the previous govermaent -de oDe -very via• •tep,dlldzaa the term that I vu with them,iu t:he_ public acbd.m.atration aern.c:• which vaa appointed to claaaify the varioua positi0111 ill goveraaeut and to bracket them.

There bu been a lot of critici .. about thia but it has accompliahed a great deal and vlll be of iDestiuble help to 8'47 public service commiadoD in being able to put people 1.Ato the appropriate slota and to avoid putting square pegs iato round holes. At least all of this prelimiuary work. hu been done aDd it is auch easier today to find the correct place to· put people 011 applicaticm for pard.cular jobs,because these have been pftt~ clearly described and pretty clearly designated. I thii:l.k that that vu a .. jor step forward, lu apita of 613ti

April 27, 1973 tape no. l:ii~ Page 7 the cr1·t1.cism and sometimes apathy with which that move was met. But a• the honourable Minister of Finance ha• said, the success of thia particular commission ~ill depend entirely on the type of people who are appointed to head it up. It does not matter how good or how able they are, with a vast civil service of 8,000 employees there will be no three men selected that will have the ability themselves to classify and select the people for all the positions in government.

Fortunately,th.e vay that thia thing will work, they will have available to them the moat expert advice, which I• sure they will take, on the various positions which are to be filled. they will b.e able to draw upon experience and advice from people who know the type of person and the kind o_f person vho 1• required for any particular position.

I am sure that if this is properly functioned, with the proper person at the head, it will have a very great effect in upgrading the civil service and not only that but in encouraging those who are pRsentiy in the civil service to feel that merit rill ccr.::t for something and that in their positions Chey have a very good alumce of advancement and promotion and ~at their poaiti.ona are secure as long as they are able to do th•i~ job properly and are properly qualif.ied for th .. e jobs. It is 1 feel a great step forward.

Although it may take aome time to see haw it function  and haw well it functions, at leat th• preliminary acepa hav• been taken to have a good functioning body; to have a good organi zation and to have it working properly. 1 predict that in the field of civil service that this measure today will be hailed as a great step fo:rvard, particularly by the Ull,ion movement which is now taking such great stronghold in NINfoundland. 'Ihe civil servants themselves, who are ..._ becoa:lng pretty well organized, I think in futute years will themselves detemine that the conduct of such a body and the methods of promotion and •election Within the aervict will be ~roperly and honestly adhered to. ·Frankly, 1 would like to ••e this sort of development because I think that the people vho work for ua and tho•• who have been with WI for o many year• are themselves really the best qualified to give advice on the poaitiona Chat have to be filled.

I am aure their advice will be ought. 6131

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 P-age 8 I can only conclude by aying that I thiDk it 1a a aoat progru ive tep cd I upport it thoroughly. MR.' BIClCHAN: Kr. Speaker, there is one feature of Chia legi lation that I think deserves a minute or two of coaaent aad Chat is the provision with respect to the duties of the ccn111iH:lon. the duties of the commi11&ion to be created and appointed under Chi act include the laying down of taudard and procedures to be followed in the recruitaent of candidate  for the public service.

To me ve have been woefully lacking in our approach to the general public with respect to civil ervata and the civil ervice ·and the public service generally. I would like to ee a commission with the expertise and the enthuiasa to be able to convince young Revfoumllanders, young,highly educated Nevfo~dlanden, that they will have a great opportunity to serve by eeking employmea.t within the ~ublic ervice of this province.

Part of the reason why we have not eeu the enthu iasa that 1a so desi.rable i  that Nwfc.mdl~l'.£ders arR unaware of the opportuniti.es for promotion, Ch• opportuaitiu for, not o such decision IIAking becaua• Chat ha CO be always dona by the politician, imput into the final dedaion Chat emanates from those who have been elected to IIAlte the deciaiona. If you go to almost any high school in the province, vhare th-, haft a careers night, you will see all the profeuiom represented.

You will ••• the Armed Forces, the police and other . outllDing to Grade XI students, who are about to graduate, the advantqes of enterlag their particular avocation. I have never seen that saae ki.nd of i.lllput from the publ1.c ervic• or the Public Service Ccmdasion mainly I supect' or one of the reuODS is that we never had a commiHion et up in such a way that thi could be done.

We are starting to attract into the public aervice of this province aome very capable, young Nwfoundlauden. 'Ihe Minister of Finance in particular hu been exceptiODAlly fortunate during the past year in attracting araduates or recent gr,duatea from the ~versity into th• public ••rvice~ If we can get a musage acros, 613;!

April 27.' 1973 Tape no. 1319 Pa1• 9 that attitudH ehould change, How ortan do you hear, "Well, if I cannot a•t a job in a particular profeeeion or with a particular induetry, I caa alway• take a job with the government." Thia haa been the theme for years. 1 auggut that one of the reason  for it is that the public generally are not aware of the great contribution that civil . aervanu are indeed making to this province. They look upon them as people who have to bear the brunt of criticism, sometimes from a public that ia not aware of their responsibilities.

Quite often a civil aervant bu to carry out duties that deep down he may be in diaagreement with.but that ia not hia prerogrative. Decisions are made by the elected representatives of the people and the civil servant carries them out. Quite often,in the performance of hi• dutiu., he will come under criticiem and this too dou not help in the i~ge of the service. By the same token, it ha to be realized that competent public aervanta are placed in the position where they can exert a great deal of influence on the decision-aakera of thia province.

If they had the capacity and . the ability to do it, then there ia a great deal of information,and us ideas which have come Jp through the long line of succession that you find within the public senice. -If thia coamiasion can succeed in making the public aervice the kind of prof•sion that young Newfoundlander• want to join, then apart from all the other good thing• that this billenvisages, I believe that thia will be one of the moat important feature  of th• legialation that is before this House, I too join with the other speakers in supportin~ the legiala!llon.

There is 1110re to it than simply standing in the House and saying; "Mr. Speaker, I support this leiislation." It should go further than that approach. What ve have to do is to tell it as it ia. Thia is a good bill. I seriously doubt that there ia a public service act in any of the other nine province  today that i  as good as the bill that is before the House - maybe because this ill the last · one. We have the advantar,e of learnin~ from ommiaaions of other legislation or 613i)

April 27, 1973 'l'ape uo. 1319 , .Page 10 the difficulties that their comad,Hioa• have found ill operatiou. le that•• it may, it is good legislationi it give• the pli»lic •ervice temare of office alld it ensure  that if the qualifications are there, promotiou will come in due cour•e. HR. MAR'l'IN: Mr. Speaker, the bill before Che Bouae 1• a welcomed one. It is umiecesaary to ••Y that becauae it ha beeu •&atecl already.

It goes without aayiug that something had to be clone •ooaer or later to try to put a 11eablaace of order into the public eervice of th1a province • But like any other bill, any o.ther act, any other piece of legislation, it ia only u good•• the people who are charged with Che reaponeibili·ty of administering that at.t.

It ill a sad commentary, I thiu, upon the •tate of the pul,lic •ervice today, u Che honourable Killiater of Juatice hu aid, that 110 aany people have Chia £ .. ling that. to enter the public serrtce ia the opportunity of lut ruort., 0 to •peak, Chae if you cami0t go anywhere elee, you caa alway• go to won, for Ch• SoW'eraeGC. I think th.le has been caused primarily because iD Che put. 90 auch I influence has been had, OD the public Hrvice by polit.ic:iaD8, political favoritism and all the rut. We are 1radually geCCiq bercmd .tliac at.age. 'l'b.e public service is the backboue of the IOftfflMllt.

Politi.cian  will rie and fall, Diiniatera will coae and go but the civil ervanca etay on.

If there is uot aome kind of pride in the work, aoae kind of Hue of being able to do a .100d jab and beiu1 recognised u havina dau a good job, theu we are not goiDI to attract the kiud of people iato ch• civil eervic• that we aeed. ·Tb•r• 1a a uotable lack of upriC de corp • ' ~ I think chi bill will 10 a lODg way toward generatin1 Chat uprit de corp• that i  ao neceHary. 'l'b.e only thiug I have to •ay that hu not alr.-y been said 1a that the whole act will be worthless ualeH the ca..iaaioaera themselves are the kind of people who have the vision to aake the public aervice that kind of intrument that it deserves to bei that a young • person entering the ervice or a person who has spent ~eaty-.five ~ea~ 6134

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Paa• 11 in 'the service can look upon it with a little bit of pride and aatiafaction. The key to the success of the whole act, Mr. Speaker, is going to be the calibre of the people that are charged with the respDD8ibility of administering it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may add a few words to what hu been said: First of all let me say, aa my colleague, the meni>er for Bell Ialand, hu said, that of course, we support th@ bill. I think it Sa qu:l.te a good bill. Many honourable gentlemen on all aides of the Bouse have said that. It does not need to be said again by me.

I do, however, waot to make two or three points which I think either have not been made or have not been made with sufficient force or aufficient elaboration.

First of all, I wu quite caken by the Minister of Finance'• meditationa upon the way in which proposal• for · legi lation, propoaala for new policies, p~oposala for new programmes, the way in vhich these were received, either by people ou· thia side of the House or by the pres  or I venture to auggea t by the people of Newfoundland ai' large, I vu qu:l.te ca.ken by iC and I think there is a lot of truth in what he aaid,that almost any time a proposal comes up, somebody, be it on this side or be it in the pres• gallery or be it in an editorial capacity in one of our press, be it the newspapers or be it the electronic media, the televi ion aod radios or if not that general great court of public opinion that in my eyes i  alway  ymptomized by the public aeeUng in Northeast Groats, which 1• a amall community just direc'tly acroaa from Southwest Groaia, better referred to as Back Harbour, Coache. '].here were six or seven families there.

Sir, they sit around, in -, example, aod they are repreaencative of a great many people ill ..,fouudland, Sir, and they greet this with outright cynicism, to use tbe aini.ater'a word. It is a good word. He went further. He aid; "almost enough co aake one aot bring in reforms. 11 That is true. I do not think for a aiaute that he would be a quitter. There are men 00 the other side 6135

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Page 12 who are quitters. I do not think the honourable geatl.-n from St. John's West is one. Whatever his failings, whatever his faults, . . whatever they may be (there are one or two of them I venture to say), he has a bulldog p•~sistence and he does not quit. 1th• nothing to do with personalities. It is an attribute to the hoaourable gatleaaa's public career that I happea to admire. If the honourable gentlemazi. for St. John'• North had ooe-fo:r~ieeh of the persistence, not to mention one one-hundredth of the ability that Che gentleman from St.

John'• Weat hu - the gentleman from St. John's North vould not have been the only person since Confederation to be dismissed from a cabinet without any reason at all except,one aasumea,ge.neral, incomplete and utter incoapetence. I mean, to be humiliated in the way in which he was is. However, 1o-hy flog it? Let the dead . b•iry the dead." I vu also, Mr.

Speaker, quite taken by the MiDiter of Pi.Dance saying that he gets discouraged or upset (I am putting word ill his aouth but I think I have the thoupt captured accurately) by people sort of trying co question hi motive • I do not know whether he aid his motive  but Che motives of those who believe in bringing in nw legislation or in making nw progrmmaes. I at and listened to all that and I agreed with every word of it. It may be, Mr. Speaker, a symptom of a malaise in the body politic in llwfouudla.d or it may be general, I do not know. We sometime 1 Sir, in this Bouse get too parochial.

We aometi111ea thilllt that ve are the only Bouse that bu difference of opinion or ve are the only BoWle in whi~ harsh words are said. If honourable members oppoaite were to sit dowo and read the HaD.Bard from Ottaa or the House of C0111110ua,(I 11111 sure the gentleman from St. John'• West dou and about the only one on the other aide vho reads it) would realize - if they read the Bauard from Weatminister - Your Honour has just pent three weeks in the Mother of Parliaments and I am sure Your Honour would be the first to say that occasionally harsh words have been mown. There have ,been some other instaricea.

Wistoa Churchill oncE threw c inkwell 6136

April 27, 1973 Tape no. 1319 Page 13 a~s- -·the Bouse - no-. -I am aorey, it was the Standing Orders. Winston Churchlll threw the Standing Orders acroas the Bouse of Commons, at a genUemaa who was tormenting him. _Alf BON. MEMBER : Somebody threw an inkwell in the House of Assembly here. · Ml. ROBERTS: Oh, yea there were all sorta of things done in the Bouee of .Allaembly. The point I am trying to make, Mr. Spe,aker, ia that if iD llewfouadland we have this, it is not unique and if we have it in N•fouadlaad to an extent greater than is natural or inevitable, we bne it because of the political events we saw for the last four or five yeara. I a not atandiug to complain. 613'i

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 1 -- apb and I am not going to stand to say that my colleagues are blameless. Of course we are not, We. have sat here now for a year and a-half, Mr. Speaker, and we will be here for another two or three.years, until the honourable crowd opposite get up the nerve to go back to the country. Then we shall see what happens. We sat here and we heard our motives questioned, I heard my father attacked personally and falsely, completely irrelevant to anything. I reacted angri~y to it, I should not have been angry I realize but there you are, there are some things.

We have had our motives questioned. I have been blamed for acts that went on ten or fifteen years ago, the gentleman from St. Barbe North has been blamed for poiicies that his father brought in fifteen or twenty years ago, the gentleman from Bell Island has been accused of everything and has had to go to the extent of demanding a royal commission which will either prove his innncence, whfrh is what it will do on the evidence that I have een and wbat I know, or it will condemn him. We sat on the other side, Mr. Speaker,but Your Honour was not then a member of the House.

We sat there for two or three years and we heard motives questioned, we heard cynicia, •• heard in every corner of the land, we heard it being spread. that we were all corrupt, crooked, did not ••• AN HON. MDmER: '1-fR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! There we are! That i~ exactly the sort of thing that I am talking about. The gentleman from St. John's North is one of . them. I do not stand to complain. That is part of the political game and if the other side choose to make it such,we will live with it. I am not complaining about that, if I were not willing to accept . it I should not be in this House.

I should leave it, I should not offer myself for election. If the Minister of Finance feel at time• that people look upon any politician with a jaundiced eye, he should look in 613b

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 2 apb his own mirror as well. If the ~entlemen opposite feel that their programmes are being treated with cynicism they should look to their own record, Sir, because the record of this administration in the year and a-half or the year and whatever it is that they have been in office has been as besmirched as any record. Ve have not brought out one-thirtieth of what we could have brought out. The gentleman from St. John's North leave  the cabinet and says (I believe I am quoting him accurately) that this crowd could teach Joey Smallwood tricks about patronage.

Morning We have not.brought out one-thirtieth of what we could bring out. We may not have brought out one-tenth of what we shall bring out. Ve have seen patronage on a scale that rivals anything the Liberals did or are alleged to have done. I did not hear the gentleman from St. John's East speak this morning,(! was off talking dentures with ay dent!ct, .mo, by the way,is not in f~vour of the denturists if there 1te any question on that or any thought on it, so I did not have the pleasure of hearing him) but I gather he was up to hia usual tricks.

Let me say now, if there were patronage in the past, if people feel there was unfair political patronage,let ua have an investigation. Let us have another royal conmissiori now. We have had the manure spread, we have had the excrement spread all over everybody. et me make a statement: I became Minister of Public Velfare in July of 1968 and I was minister of that department until June of 1969 when I became Minister of Health. I was Minister of Health until the administration left office in January of 1972. Those two departments, Mr.

Speaker, are among the largest department in the government in hiring, the Health Department in particular. It was not as large then as it was previously and it is not as large now as it was then,becauae the Waterford Hospital has come out. the General Hospital came out before my tune but_even in my time, the Health Department hired three or four thousand employees. Now it must be what? Fifteen hundred?

April 27 1 1973, Tape 1'320, Page 3 - apb Morning Tvo thousand? About two thousand. It is a large department. 'nie Department of Welfare, as it was then called,and it ~s gone through a number of name changes since then, Sir, like the chameleon shedding the skin, lt is still the same chameleon. AN HON. ?-WBER: (Inaudible) Mt.

ROBERTS: That ia eventeen hundred or eighteen hundred employee ? 1 will make the flat statement that there was no political patronag _e that the minister was aware of. 1 can rem8111ber one case at the Brookfield Cottage Hospital where l intervened. (If the ~inister of Health wants to speak to the officials, the asaociate deputy minister would be aware of it, where 1 said; "I make the appointment or the cabinet make the appointment, put this man in.") There was some doubt as to who should go there. It is the only case I can remember in two or three years, three and a-half years.

Let us have an investigation, let us get to the bott0111 of this, bec..use once again we have seen everybody tarred: We have heard the hair-shirt from Fortune Bay get up, the man who was flung out of a cabinet, let it be r~called, flung out of a cabinet, humiliated. He was put out for a cause whether one agreed with it or not and one can argue that point. Now all we hear is how he was against everything. The man sat and he took the Queen's shilling year after year and then when he was put·out it turns out that he was against everything. That is an example of courage. The gentleman from St.

John's West had the courage to leave the cabinet, the gentll!lllan from Burin left the cabinet. That is fin~, that is the honourable and courageous thing to do but ve have h~ard that everybody was patronaged. I know of none. I asked my coileague,the member from Fogo,if he recalled any during his three years in the cabinet and he said: "Yes, there was at least one caae." I aid; "What was that?" · He said; "We made Mr. Rupert Prince the fiaherie  development au.thority and that did not go through the Civil Service Commiaaion." And it did not. l have no 614ti

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 4 -- apb Morning idea what Hr. Prince's politics are or if he has any. He was with the Federal Civil Service but he came with us. That was a definite political appointment in that it was made at the political level. Mr. Smallwood,and . I _think, Mr. Aiden Maloney was involved. Was Alden still in the cabinet then? Aiden had left the cabinet but he certainly was consulted when ~r. Ross Youn~ died and there was a great, gaping hole in that

section of the administration. That was political. It was not partisan but it was political. We have heard the brush smeared - well I make the atatement now, let us have an independent investigation. Let ua see, lf we want to go back twenty-three years, fine, if we want to go back tvo hundred and thirty-tive. Let us go back,say, ten years and let us look at every appointment made in the civil service or the public service at it is now called, every single appointment, every one. Honourable gentlemen Ol'l)Osite may scoff at this and scorn.

I have the most to lose one would think, I am leader of the party which was in office for almost all of those ten years. Let ua go back to March 31, 1963, ten years ago. I first came in on the governmertt payroll the,.. year after that, May 1964 or June of 1964, whenever it was, so that there may have been Mny things happen that I do not know about even during the eight or nine year  I waa involved in the executive branch of the government. Let us have an investigation and let us once and for all lay this gho•t, if it is a ghost. Then we will know, we will know how much .._ partisan patronage there was.

Let us find out for once and for all. Dove not ove that to the people of Newfoundland? The Minister of Finance gets up and makes a very good point,that cynician greets every act of government. I say t~t may be inevitable. If it is not inevitable,it has been caused in Newfoundland by the partisan controversies of the past few years and by the acts of this administration since they have been 1n. I II. .. • .. 0.1~1

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, PaRe 5 - apb can name a dozen appointment  that this honourable crowd have .made, Sir, that I suspect were not strictly on a non-partisan basis. That is fine. So I make the statement; let us have, let u set up, let us get somebody in from outside the province and let us take every appointment made, every one and let us find out ••• MR. CARTER: Would the honourable member peTI!lit a question? MR. ROBERTS: No, I would not. Yes,okay~ Go ahead! Sure! I am all benevolence this morning. MR.

CARTER: Is the honourable Leader of the Opposition now prepared to take full responsibility, political responsibility for all the enormities of the Smallwood regime? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman opposite is the best example I could conceive of what I meant when I said that there is a reason why we have cynicism and imputing of motives in Newfoundland. I am leader of the Liberal Party, I shall be leader of the Liberal Party until the Liberal Party choose another leader which may be tomorrow or twenty years from now. I am the political heir of Mr.

Smallwood,a  leader of the Liberal Party,and I am quite 11roud of that. I take full reS11otu1ibility for what went on when I was a member of the administration,if I knew of it or not, even il it has been misrepresented in this House b~ honourable gentlemen opposite. That is all I will say, it is all I need to say. The day confederation came, the 1st. day of April, 1949, Mr. Speaker, I was eight years old. Eight years old, eight and a­ half years old. If the honourable gentleman opposite want to think I am responsible for what happened in 1949 and 1950, let him.

The ~ people of Newfoundland know what to make of the honourable gentleman. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, let there be an investigation. Let us have it out. For once and for all let us settle this question. Were the Smallwood years - was it true that you could not get in the civil service unless Joey put you in or unless you paid off somebody? t know of some appointments that were made, of course. Of course 1 do, just as I know of appointments that honourable gentlemen opposite 614~

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 6 -- apb have made. That does not particularly concern me nor bother me. There was an appointment made to the ·Medical Care Connission yesterday - a very fine lady. It was announced yesterday. I do not know when it was made but as I heard on C.J.O.N. yesterday morning, a well known Progressive Conservative supporter in Central Newfoundland was appointed to the Medicare C0111111ission. It then went on to quote the Minister of Health. I do not think the ~inister of Health put it out.

The lady has been president of the Progressive Conservative W0111ens' Association in Grand Falla, the soul and heart of it, for a number of years. I do not mind that, she is a good citizen and will probably do a ••• AN HOR. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Of course she has. Mr. Gillett,who was there before her, we appointed. As far as I know she had no partisan awareness m:ie vay or the other 'but was equally involved in community affairs and I am sure did an equally good job on the commiaaion.

I hold no grudge against the lady, I 111n merely pointing out that - "Let he JIIIIODg y~ that is without sin be the first to cast the atone." I do not begrudge it at all, that is legitimate apoila of office. As my friend the former mmber for Bonaviata South would have said, ''The' apilea' of office go to the vie tor." Mr. Speaker, let us find out for once and for all, let us, if honourable gentlemen opposite wan': to They have been ~ying for years, they have been·spreading this myth, cultivating it insidiously, then let us get to the bottom of it. Let us find out • ._ It vould be very interesting.

I would be very interested to see, ao I make that little offer today. I do not really expect it to be accepted but.if they really have any desire to improve the quality of public life in this province, either they will atop the aort of thing they have been doing or they will pu't it to the teat. I tand bere willing to put it to the teat. If the honourable gentleman from St.·Jolm'a North is worried about rea~onsibility,I know what I am 6143

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320. Page 7 -- apb aayini- AH HON. MEMBER: What about cost-plus? MR. ROBERTS: Anything the honourable gentleman wants to talk about,1 am quite happy to - quite happy to. Surel AN RON. MEP-!l!ER: What about Newfoundland Leasebacks? MR. ROBERTS: We will talk about all sorts of things. If the honourable gentleman want to, we shall. We will also talk about Mr. Saunders. We will have a long chat. There are lots of things we can talk about. We will talk about Archibald's Inn, we will talk about the curious goings on at the Carbonear 801pital and we will talk about Burgeo.

If the honourable gentleman want to talk about Halfway Bouse,! am quite happy to - quite happy to. 1 am quite willing to talk about anythi~, Mr. Speaker, quite willing · to • Mr. Speaker, let me say one other thing about thi1 bill. It is a point that wa1 made before and 1 think it ii worth making once more for me,and if other members want to ~peak, of course, they have the right and they should. This bill is a paper tiger unless the commission are the right men.

Because, Sir, if the c0111111ission, if the c011D11isaioners and the ~inister of Finance made the point, the gentleman from Labrador South made the point and maybe other honourable gentlemen made the point, if the comaiisioners want to take the teeth out of this a.ct they can, simply .by that clause (13) that theziniater read. It is as wide open, Sir, as the narrows should be if it vere not . for the fact that they are blocked with ice. You could drive a garbage truck through that loophole. "All appointments and promotions to posts within the public service shall be made from within the public service!

That is magnificent. I am not so sure I agree with it completely but it sounds magnificent. Mandatory, "SHALL" then it goes on; "Except -where in the opinion of the coll'llllission it is not in the public ·interest to c0111ply with this requirement." Mr. Speaker, if the commission choose,that one proviso 6144

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 8 - apb could destroy entirely and completely this act. I am not opposed to having it in there because 1 think it i  a rea onable proviso. As a matter of fact, I think I am with the Mini ter of Finance, I am not so sure this act can work. I think in its full rigor it may very well be unworkable. I speak as one who was involved for seven or eight years at certain mana~ement levels, not in the public service, I was never a public servant but seven or eight years of being at the management level in one way or another. I am not so sure this is workable. Also, Mr.

Speaker, I am not so sure that we have not taken a step back to one of the nasty hangovers from commission, the old departmental boards, Because 1 notice that while the chief executive officer may n?t participate in the recommendation of the c011111ission, he does have the right to be represented and to be present at the interview with the right to participate in the interviewing. That is

section 15(2), Mr.

Speaker, that could, and I am merely pointing out danger, it will again underlie the importance of the C011D11issioners - that could lead us back to the situation ve had in Commission of Government where each department vas a chiefdom unto itself and you could not get anywhere~ If the deputy minister crossed you or if you crossed the deputy minister, you might as well leave, you were finished, I can name cases of that too,if we want to talk about things that have gone on in the past, some from my own personal knowledge and many more in law would be hearsay but I believe them, Just because they are hearsay evidence does'not make them untrue.

Raving the departmental people present may mean that in any given cmpetition - sure he has no right to participate in the making of the rec011111endation but you are not going to tell me that if you have three civil service c011111issi~ners, Your Honour, and .one or two or three of them sit in on a selection board and the chief executive officer,a deputy minister is there, true he cannot take

part in the decision but he can take

part in the interview, you 6145

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, PaRe 9 -- apb are not going to tell me he is not going to have a very great influence. If we have two candidates up before him and one happens to be a friend of that gentleman from the department and the other is not, I leave it to Your Honour to imagine what will happen. That did happen in the c011111ission. It waa one of the real weaknesses in the public service as the Commission of Government set it up and as•• carried out in the first years of Confederation. Thia underlines to me, Mr. Speaker, the crucial :bnportance of the commiBBioners.

I am not going to say that the Act is a bad.one. I think it is a good one, but no judgement as to the merit of_ this Act is worth a damn, Mr. Speaker, until and unless we see ·how it is implemented. l'he act,very wisely,will come into force only on proclamation. I assume that means that until the ~overnment have the co111111issioners they will not proclaim. it. That ,.-ould be wise. The Minister of Finance says that they have not even anybody in mind. I believe that as a statement of his knowledge.

I am not so sure he is aware of what is going on throughout the administration but to the best of hi• knowledge nobody is in mind. I note with interest he is not the minister responsible. The calibre of the c011111:tssionera will determine whether this act is a good oDe or not. I do not think anybody in the chamber, Sir, or anybody in Newfoundland should be fooled or under delusion for any jot or tittle of time, to use that infamous phrase. If the commissioners ~re able men, if they are men of the ~ calibte of - ~r.

Avery has gone over to the Liquor C011111ission, u president of the corporation, I guess. the marketing, the merchandising business, the booze shops. That is fine. A capable man, I have every faith in him. If they are men of that stature and calibre,this will be a good act and it will work. If they are not, if they are men such aa some other gentlemen who have been appointed by the p~eaant administration, then this will he disaster. 6146

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Pase 10 -- apb We shall have to wait and ee. There is only one other point I will make, Sir. I am d~lighted to see that it is no longer possible to exempt poeta fr0111 the ambit of the civil service co11111ission. I think that was the legal or the technical tenn. This was one of the great weakneaaea in the old act If the old act should be condemned on any one ground principally, in my view it ia not partisan patronage because I really believe it when 1 uy ! do not think there was a great deal of it.

I do not think there was any more than•• have aeen aince the 18th. of January, 1972, I am willing to put that to the teat by asking for an independent investigation. We vill stand or fall by that. The weakness in it wae, posts were exemi,ted from the ambit of the civil service. I do not know this for a fact. I have never had it checked. I do not know where to look to check it but I would be willing to wager a considerable sum, Mr. Sp~?;:- 1 t~t as of today the only posts the civil ser~ice co::"l:llission :lnterviev for are the stenographer• and clerical and that sort of post.

Almost every department at one tillle or another over the past few yeara,aod the trend is still going on, it has gone on since January 18, .1972 juat as it went on before that, almost every department has succeeded in exemptin~ or having cabinet exmpt almost every poet they have from the ambit of the c0111D1i1sion. All of the welfare officers, all of the medical officers, all of the educational people, in department after department after department, all the lawyers - now that was the weakness in the act. not that it opened to partisan interference but rather that it opened to departmental patronage.

That is where the patronage was. My friend from Bell Island says; "What ring did you wear? What school did you go to? Nhen do you know? You have an uncle in the service as a clerk, grade IV, fine, we will get you a clerk izrade II." That i,as the patronage. •rorked in•was the phraae they use - a lea delicate phrase to exactly the same effect which I will not uae, I do not know if it is unparliamentary but I suppose it is not overly 6147

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 11 -- apb decorous. That is where the bulk of the patronage was and I fear this bill still preserves it. Although they have ended exempting posts from the ambit of the COll'IIDission and that i• a good thing, there is that massive loophole of

section (lS) of chief executive officers being present either personally or through delegates. Raving said that,I still think it is a reasonable clause to put in but it is open to possible abuse. Once again, it will depend on who the commissioners are and how they approach their duties. Mr. Speaker, that concludes the few remarka I was provoked into making by honourable gentlemen opposite. I shall doubtless i:,rovoke the gentleman from St. J·ohn' s East into making a few remarks. I hope he will take me up on my request that we have an independent investigation.

Once again today we have had it spread about: "All the dirty Smallwood Liberals! You could not get in unless you gave ~oey money," all that aort :,f thing; let u. put it to the teat, let us find out. AN HON. MEMBER: ·(Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Nobody said; "Unleaa you pay money." Nobody said that but that was the impression. The hair-shirt from-Fortune Bay was at it again.

Re was opposed to everything when he was there except he did not have the courage to say &OJ I sat in cabinet with the honourable gentleman for a year or so as did my friend from Bell Island, my friend from Fog9 and my friend from White Bay South. But anyway I do not want to. Why, leave the i,oor fellow alone, he has to live with bun.self and that is enough: Mr. Speaker, I mean it when I say this myth is around, et us find out if it is a myth or not. The gentleman from St. John's West has put his finger on it when he says that this has perhaps helped to poison the poltiical atmosphere in Newfoundland.

Let us put it to the test It is not a witch hunt. Let us, just for the historical record, have it laid out. Was it true or not? Was there patronage and if so,who was responsible? Was it the ministry? 6148

April 27 • 1973. • Tape 1320 • Page 12 - apb Was it the Premier of the day? Was it the ministers of the dayJ Was it the civil service of the day? Was it the deputy ministers? We cquld go through the civil service, find little echelons. It is amazing what you could learn. Watch deputy ministers sit down - talk about summer jobs, Have you ever seen deputy ministers create summer jobs for their children? I have seen it and heard about it, Mr. !-peaker. Having said all that, I do think it is a good bill and I think it is a step forward.

It is a logical outgrowth of what has come on in the past few years, the classification plan, PAD Division, the strengthening of treasury board, all that sort of thing. Whether or not it will be of benefit to the people of this province and to the public service of this•provinc~ will depend entirely on the coamdsaioners to be appointed. The government will really have to stud or fall on that and we will have to suspend judgement on the merit of citi.s plece of legislation and the merit oi this so-called reform until we see exactly what the government do by means of the people whom they appoint.

I hope they will appoint them quickly and I hope they will get them to work quickly, because there is a job to be done ad the quicker we can ~et at it the better. I shall vote for second reading, Sir. Ml. MARSHALL: Just a few closing words, Mr. Speaker, lir•t al all I had no - Mll. 1'EARY: Before the honourable minister begins could ve have a quorum co1mt? Could the Clerk count the House, Mr. Speaker? MR.SPEAD:R: quol'1al present. Hit. MARSHALL: Would the Clerk count the Rouse, please? There is a Mr.

Speaker, most that needed to be said is already uf.d but let me first say that I have no intention whatsoever of addressing myself to the exhibition of political paranoia that was exhibited by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition with respect 614!i

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, page 13 1 - apb to investigations and the years gone by. The Leader of the Opposition together with so many of his colleagues belong to an era of the past and quite frankly, I cannot wait until the next election to see them recede into the past permanently. With resp ·ect to this particular bill itself, I just on sU111J11ary would •Rree with the observations made by most aember• and in particular . the member for Labrador South and the Minister of Finance ••• MR. NEARY: Count the House, Mr. Speaker. Count the House. MR. SPEAKER: Would the Clerk please count the House?

There 1• a quorum. }o1Jl. NEARY: T~ank you, Your Honour. MR. 1(.ARSHALL: · I agree as I say, Mr. Speaker, with the observations made by the honourable the member for Labrador South and the honourable ~inister of Finance as well as many others who have spoken in this debate, that this commission or this bill will be as effective as the commission which is appointed, It has already been indicated that the govermnent fully intend to appoint peol'le who can do the job.

The member for Bell Island,1n his usual fashion,made cynical references to the fact that we are going to appoint - there are going to be political a~pointJllents. Be said that you cannot avoid political appointJnents. Sure they will be but it is not going to be politicians in thesenae that the honourable member for Bell Island was attempting to insinuate. The only thing that had any merit at all in the observations of the Leader of ~he Opposition was the danger with -. respect . or the weakness in connection with the chief executive officer and the reference to the Commission of Government.

I think he said that he agrees to this procedure and it is necessary. An independent commission should be able to get the benefit of the views of anybody. As for resulting in a hierarchy such as there was in pre-Commission of Govermnent days, I would remind this House that what this bil.l does is attempt to really address itself to observations 6150

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 14 apb that could become pertinent again in years to come, such as were put out in the Amulree Report at the time when we gave up our independent status 'intthe 1930's and there was a large size, a great deal of· criticism about the operation of political parties. One party would come in and turf the other supporters out of the govermnent and back and forth.

That is not the way in the twentieth century that a public service can effectively operate and therefore, underscores again. the dire necessity of increasing and strengthening the fabric and the professional status of the civil service itself. With resy,ect to the observations concerning a lady on the c01aission; well, it is not prt!cluded in this bill. Maybe there will be three ladies on the c0111111ission. We will not aelect a lady for the sake of selecting a lady nor a male for the sake of Hlecting a male. 'Ibey will be eelected on the basis of ability. · In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would eay in

summary that this bill appoints an independent public service commiesion, stipulates the mode and method of effectively providing for appointment• from outside and promotions from within to be on the merit principle. It includes all civil-servants and'effectively cancels the very invidious proceedings which had occurred,of excluding, allowing the cabinet at will to ezclude certain .provisions fr0111 the ambit of the act and genera;1y is a sincere attempt to, as I say, strengthen the public service.

It will be as effective as the c011111issioner• appointed and the regulations promulgatad with reepect to it but we intend to see that that is done with the .._ degree of care u the bill itself was formulated. Kr. Speaker, I 110ve second readinp,. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting A Public Service C:0-ission For The Province." read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House. tomorrow. On motion, second readinR of a bill, "An Act To Provide 6151

April 27, 1973, Tape 1320, Page 15 -- apb Por The Control Of Alcoholic Liquor." MR. CROSBIE: ~r. Speaker, I rise to move second reading of this bill. I think, at besl there are two bills here, this bill (107), "An Act To Provide For The Control Of Alcholic Liquor," and the other one which is really a complimentary bill, • (106) "An. Act To Provide For The Establishment Of The Newfoudnland Liquor Corporation." I think the easiest way to debate this is to debate them both at the same time, if that is agreeable to the House. MR. ROBERTS: They are really the same. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I think that these are very far­ reaching and well worth-while changes that provide for well worth­ while changes in the whole fleld of the sale and control of alcholic liquor and beer in the province. 615~

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM - l MR. CROSBIE: The ~eneral principle of these two piece• of legislation is this, that we are going to separate the business of the merchandising and sale of alcoholic liquor and beer and wine from the business or the field of the control of the sale of alcoholic liquor, beer and wine. The functions of issuing of permits, of inspection of premises and of transfer of licences, everything to do with licencing will come under the jurisdiction of the New~oundland Liquor Licencing Board which 1a provided for in bill No. 107.

The business of carrying out the government's monopoly in _the •ale of liquor, beer and wine in the province will be handled by the Ne,.rfoundland Liquor Corporation which is provided for in bill No. 106 which is now before the House. The reason for this, Mr. Speaker, what we need is a corporation which provides for the efficient operation of the business of the merchandiaing of alcoholic beverages, beer and wine, th~ ~urpose _of which -is to raise revenue really for the goveniment of this province.

That business does not have to be associated with the busineH of licencing and granting licetic;es for the sale of beverages and in fact it is much better to separate the two. The act for the establishment of the Newfoundland Liquor Licencing Board provides that there is to be a full-time chairman and two part-time members, a very important feature. MR. NEARY: I wonder could we have a quorum of the House, Mr. Speaker? Could the clerk count the Houae? ~. SPEAKER: Would the clerk count the House please? There 1• a quorum. MR. C1'0SBIE: That t. very good of the honourable gentleman to be so thoughtful.

There will be a full-time chairman, !-Ir. Speaker, and two part-tiae mnibers on the Newfoundland Liquor Licencing Board. They are to be appointed for a term of three years and to aerve during good behaviour. So they are not just appointed at the pleasure of the Crown, so they will have some independence, 6153

April 27, 1973 Tape No, 1321 1'M - 2 MR. CROSBIE: 1 am on the most important change in that connection, Mr.

Chairman, and that is that the legislation provides for or continues the business of the fact that you had to advertise before you get a licence, that if there are objections and the board feel that a public hearing is desirable that the people who o,ject to granting them a licence will have to come before the board, preNDt their objections at a public hearing and the person who is applying for the licence will have a right ~o answer the Objection  raised by the people who are protesting against the granting of a licence.

As the Rouse knows, the previous practice under the previoua legislation, still in effect now, is that people can object to the granting of a licence, their names do not have to be disclosed to the people applying for a licence, It can be done anonymously. There is no appeal under the act. A licence can be granted, suspended or taken away or a transfer refusal without any reason being granted and without any right of appeal. Under the new legislation, there is a

section of the act which specifically ays that if a person is refused a licence he must be given the reasons for that in writing o that he is informed of the reuoaa why he is not granted a licence and he has a right _to appeal to the District Court or the Supreme Court from that decision. If a liceace be suspended for longer than thirty days,he has the same right of appeal. If a transfer of a licence is refused, there cen be an appeal and if a licence is revoked there can also be·an appeal, All of thoee are treaendoue changes, a complete reversal of past policy in this respect.

One of the things that the new liquor licencing board will luwe to do when it is established, the chainnan in patticular, is to try to develop some criteria for the Rranting of licences, what criteria thoy have are to judge, The act et out,of cour e, ome crite .ria, ome condition  that must be met: how the premises have to be kept, have to be in a sanitary manner and so on. But we have to develop some criteria to decide how many licences should be in a particular area, what is the right number. This has not ' ,een done. Because we cannot just continua. 6154

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM'- 3 MR. CR~SBIE: handing out dozens and dozens and hundreds of licences; there has got to be some control to it, Thegentleman who is ~oing to be made chail'111an of this board, and we do not know who that is going to be yet, will have to see what they are doing in other provinces and try to develop some sensible regulation that will govern the number of licences granted, So this will be a complete change from the present practice, In coanection with the merchandising - well I might give just some of the other major changes.

The ·liquor corporation will have . the exclusive right to purchase and sell liquor in the province and to control the establishment and operation of liquor stores and liquor agencies. L~~ialation provides that,in addition to the government having it own liquor store , if the corporation, after they have studied this question, if they think that this is a wise thing to do,they can also pTOVide for t~,e &r.le of liquor through agency stcree.

In other words,it will not have to be a store owned by the government but if this is found to be feasible and there ia a demand or a need for a .,,.rt:l.cw.ar community to have a liquor store there, that 1.t could be done by way of agency. In other words, some established business in the c0111111unity could be given the right to sell liquor as an agent of the board. Now it will be up to the corporation to decide whether this is feasible but the act makes provision for that to be done if they find it deilrable and feasible.

It seems to me that there is no real reason why we should have to spend our own money in acquiring land and the buildings in every area of the province vhere there is possibly need for the merchandizing of liquor. A.1'tf HON. ME?-fBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well we rented a store,for example,in Gander,a few months ago,but ~tis at a much better rental. There will still be some need for renting premises. The rent that ia now being paid is a lot less than what was asked for in the beginning. That will be a major change in it. 6155

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM 4 XR. CROSBIE: We want the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation to establish itself as an efficient business. It has not been that in the past and I will mention some of the things that were found wrong with it by the study we had done last year,by ADMARK Associates, with Mr. Roland !--fartin, Mr. Barnes, ~!r. Lee Van Hall and one other. ~. NF.ARY: Were they a co_mpany7 MR. CROSBIE: Well they were call AD"!ARK Associates. It wa not a company. MR. NEARY: With Mr. ~.artin director or what? 'fR. CROSBIE: No it is not a company.

It is a group of people from Memorial University Commerce Faculty who did this study for us last summer. Mil. NEARY: How much did it cost? MR. CROSRIE: 1 thought the honourable gentler.ian would be asking that. There was Mr. Roland ~artin, Mr. Jim Barnes, "!r. Gar Pynn and Mr. Lee Van Hall, all from The· Faculty of C0111merce, who lao::t "•.111m11'!r did a study of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission for us. The cost of it was $20,000 in fees and $4,800 in expenses. · They spent some two or three U10ntha going through the whole operation of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission in detail.

They gave us -a four volume report and I have a

summary of their conclusions and recommendations here. They studied operations in the other provinces and what they found when reported certainly incicated that there had to be major changes in our setup. the things that they found. So ~erhaps I might give some of I do not want to go into it in too much depth but they found that there was a total lack of any businesslike approach to the management of the Newfoundland Liquor Commi'ssion. That decisions with respect to expansion, new brand listin,:i;s, purchasing, warehouse operation, grantine of licences were generally ~ade without reeard for their repercussions in the financial area or for their effect in other areas of the co~mission. 615ti

April 27, 1973 Tape :-;'o. 1321 NM - 5 ~!R.. C~OSBJE: There was no evidence of any form of evaluation of personnel performances. Financial data was generally abseat for tht! purposes of making decisions Areas of authority wit'hin the management group were unclear. The involvements of elected politicians in the operation of the commission have been frequent.

Political involvement even in rather mundane operations of the colllfflission,such as the provision of stock for inventory, had ~ecome so accepted by personnel at the management level that they appeared to be unable to make decisions on those matter  for themselve , They concluded that the commission was being operated in a veey inefficient manner,resulting in unnecessarily high operating costs. Revenues generated could be increased with improved organization. But in the past they have appeared to have been primarily a channel for political influence.

Tl'oe commission had and have little to do with the efficiency of the whole operation. Those were their general findings, that the day to day operations of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission were characterized by an antiquated accountin~ system and an almost total lack of information for decisi~making purposes. Records were outdated and inaccurate and neces aey reports were nonexistent. There were no eata~lished criteria for the granting of licences or for the adminiatrati~n of the Alcoholic Liquor Act and regulations pertaining to licenced establishments.

Decisions respecting licencing and enforcement appear to be made without ~egard for the act and on the basis of emotional and political considerations. Then they recommended what in essence is now before the House, the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, which would be a crown corporation and a separate liquor-licencing board. Then they examined the whole thing in depth and the report dealt with finance and accounting. The warehousing procedures were complex, inconsistent and inefficient. They deal with every aspect of the operation  of the commissions. It would take too long to go 6157

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM - 6 ~IR. CROSBIE: into detail on all the things they found that needed to be corrected, In their report they deal in detail with the changes that should be made and are now being made by the new management. On the listing of liquors, they found that there is no systematic procedure for new listings or for what quantities should be purchased .. that the licencing, pricing and distribution of foreign wines are inefficient. Tha; the public was not receiving good service in the area of promotion or display of new brands.

That the listing decisions were inconsistent and disorganized as to whether or not a brand should be delisted because it is not selling in sufficient quantity. MR. ROBERTS: Does the minister mean taken out of stock? MR. CROSBIE: No, taken off the list. It is no longer listed for sale in the stores. But it would no longer be stocked, Now as a matter of fact when they · did their study, there were over 700 brands listed. One of the things that were wrong with the commission was that they had too many brands. Three-quarters of all revenue comes from the sale of twenty-seven brands, twenty-seven items. MR.

ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I do not know whether that is so or not. Somebody 111W1t be getting married and they are checking into the champagne situation. We have to decide when we are going to have our stag party for the honourable gentleman too, There were 677 listings when they did their ·study last summer. It is down I believe now to just 500. They said that the product line of 677 listings was too large, There were serious inconsistencies and imbalances. The merchandising of beverages through the conventional retail store was inefficient and did not provide quality service to the customer.

Decisions to list new brands and to order quantities of those brands had always been made by one of the commissioners and

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM - 7 ~. CROSBIE: in most cases influenced by political considerations, No records were kept with the sales record and new listings and in many instances the initial quantity ordered resulted in low inventory turnover and so on and ao on, They recommended a listing committee should be formed to deal with all matters pertaining to listing and delisting of brands. That is now being done.

They recommended that the policy of the commission iD the future should be to open only self-service retail •tore• and to convert all present stores to self-service when this become po•sible, That is the policy of the C0111111ission now. They are planning to change the Grand Palla store to a self-service. I think that ui unden,ay and the same with the store in Corner Brook,in the shopping centre t~ere.

That will be made a self-service store, It takes less staff and it is much more efficient because all the brands are out on the shelves and the customer can see them, It is the eame principle as a supermarket, uipulae buying. That will be the policy of the commission in the future, They will only open self-~ervice stores. The inventory situation and control of inventory was bad, The warehousing wae inefficient, the ordering proc••• - it is long, Anyway, the s1D11 and substance of it all wu that it wu not being run efficien~ly, the trucking, the purchasing decisiona usually were bued on political consideration•.

The blending department was operating at a low level of capacity and they make a lot of recommendations about the blending department. The bottling line is inefficient. They are bottling several low volume, high cost brands. The purchase of casks and subsequent resa1e of casks as swish barrela,at $3.00 per cask,was a cos~ly practice. I am glad to announce to the Bouse, Mr. Spea~er, that if you want to buy a swish barrel now you have to pay $10, The price is gone from $3.00 to $10.00, The enthusiasm for swish bar~els has declined as a result, .A1'C RON. MEMBER: How can you get one?

MR, CROSBIE: Oh you apply to the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation. MR. ROBERTS: Is there more swish left in the barrel now? 615S

April 27, 1973 Tape NO, 1321 NM 8 MR. CROSBIE: I have never tried the swish but the practice of selling swish barrels was costing us thousands of dollars a year because you could buy the barrel for $3.00 and get swished, They recommended that the price be made $10.00, That has been done. They found that the growth in the number of retail stores took place with little regard for whether or not a store was. required. There was a lack ofdutonomy at the retail store level and so on. Anyway, there were a lot of things there that need to be corrected and the correction is now underway.

They recommended that new stores should not be opened unless they ca~ be expected to attain sales of between $250,000 and $275,000 annually. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIF.: Well we have about five or six stores that sell less than $250,000 a year. These are the figures from 1971, 1972. The store with the largest sales was Philip Place in St. John's and in that year they sold $2,052,000 worth of liquor- that is Philip Place, This is the total sale. That may go up a cduple of thousand a year. The next highest was the NLC building in St.

John's - that i!J on the Kenmount Road - $1,879,000, The shopptng centre in Corner Brook was $1,131,000 but then it goes down to St, Lawrence. The sales in St. Lawrence were only $145,000; in Buchana only $95,000; F;owera Cove only $93,000: St. Anthony only $184,000; Catalina - $126,00Q: and Bonavista - $147,000. ~ow there should not have been stores open at these places. The volumes are too small. They do not justify the opening of a store, .... The stores are there now and I will presume that they will be continued although this is a matter for the commission, but they have to have our consent.

There is no plan ·at the T!!Oment to close any stores. So there is a wide discrepancy between the volume of liquor sol~ in various stores. 61"60

April 27, 1973 ~ - 9 'R. CROSBIE: Deer Lake.for example,is $274,ono in that particular year; ~ount Pearl - S397,OOO; and so on. But there will not be stores open in the future unless they can attain sales of at least $250,000 to $275,000 annually, A.~ ROX. 1'!E'·l13E'R: Inaudible. •m. C~0~BIE: That is not his store, that is Mrs. Vardy's store. The store in Stephenville, let us see - Stephenville - ~741,000, very respectable. Bell Island,not too good - $215,000, It is better than Buchans and Flowers Cove and St, Anthony. This was 1971-1972, The honourable gentleman was still the minister then. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, these are the Reneral findings of the c011D11ission and this is why steps had to be taken to change this now. As the House knows now,in anticipation we hope the House in enacting thir legislation, the govern~ent,has recruited the president for the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation and a.vice-president of Finance. The president i!l 'fr. Roland Avery and the vice-president of Finance is Mr. Grep, Canning. I think in these two young Newfoundlanders we have a very fine teaM. Mr. Avery is in the gallery now. Re is a young }:~:foundlander, age thirty-four.

He has his degree in civil engineering and in advanced business administration. He had worked in the province, with Canada tngineering Foundation of Canada and tundrigan's Limited,and be has come to us from Lundrigan's Limited where he was manager of one of their divisions at Lundrigan's. He has been on the job now for I gues• about two months and the salary I believe is $28,0~0 a year. Unfortunately he gets no commission on sales but we will be watching his performance with great interest. .. Hr. Avery will be president of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation.

It will have a board of directors of seven, one person from the Department of Finance, one person from th.e T~easury Board. There will be the president, !1r. Avery, the vice-president of Finarce, Mr. Canning. That is four and there will be three outside people appointed to the board of director£. We have not decided yet who these should be but these would he three people who have some experience in business or 6161

April 27. 1C!?3 Tape !fo. 1321 ID! - 10 'ffi. CROSBIE: commerce who can give general advice and attend board of directors' meetings once or twice a month and generally make a contrib,ution we hope to the operation of this as a business. AN HO~. ~F.'1BER: Salary? }fR. CROSBIE: They will not recieve salary, they will probably get the standard $35 a directors' meeting. The representatives of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board - AN HON. MEMBf.R: Inaudible, MR. C'ROSBIE: They may be able to get swish barr • .. ls for $9, 99 instead of $10.00, We are very pleased also in being _able to get Mr.

Greg Canning as the vice-president of Finance. He is a Newfoundlander, born in Merasheen,in 1937, married with four children. For four years he was manager of systems and procedure

section in the Finance branch of the National Capital Commission. when he came to the commission he was manager of the financial information module of the Canada Post Office. a professional accountant with an R.I.A. degree. Re has a lot of experience in the finance field, computers and all this kind of thing and we think he is going to do a very fine job there. He 1• a cousin by the way of the former member for Plancentia West. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSIBF.: Well I will not go that far,but we cannot deny that he vu the former member for Plancentia West •• · Now they are already started with making the necessary changes at the Nevfoundland Liquor Commission. At the moment they are both members of the commissio~ untiJ these bills are acts that the House agree . to and proclaim. Now just some information on licences the Houee might be interested in, there are 530 liceaced establishments in the province•• at March 31, 1973.

There are 153 with club licences; 16 with hotel licences; 76 with hotel and lounge licences, 50 with restaurant licences; 6 taverns; 21 military messes, 183 lounge licences; two club and restaurant licences, 12 lounge and restaurant licences: one airport 6162 .

April 27, 1973 Tape No, 1321 NM - 11 MR. CROSBIE: eatabliahment; four brewery licence : ix warehouses. That is 530, There are actually 621 licences issued because some establish~ents have more than one licence, ~hey might have a hotel, lounge licence and also a restaurant licence. The number of licences issued in the last year, from April 1, 1972 to March 31, 1973,waa 71. 12 club licences;3 hotel only; 6 hotel lounp; 32 lounge; no tavern licences; 13 restaurant: 4 restaurant lounge and one militaey mesa and 125 brewers' agents.

Tt,ere i  a tremendous desire in the province to be a brewer's apnt because there are hundreds of application  from people who want to be brewer's agent, So including the brewers' agent• ·' licences, there were 226 issued last year. nie total number of brewers' agents now licenced, at the end of March,was 724; 79 distributors, licenced and 66 aub­ distributors, representing the four breweries; the total number of suspensions last year on licenced eatabliah1'!ent  was ?.O, there were 20 au.pended, no cancellations; the number of brewers' agents suspended WU B.

MR. ~ORY.ltTS: iloes he have anything for prior years? Mil, CRQ!BIE: No, last year there was a question asked and it was given for the year before that but I only have last year's_. Mil, ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I think so, J.ast year there were fifteen suspended brewers' agents and 6 cancelled. Ve have at present 130 application~ not dealt with and 362 for brewers' agents, people who want to be brewers' agents. The brewers' agency business appears to be a very popular one in the province. U RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR.

ClWSltl: Th• brewer•' agent  - 362 and 130 for other kinda of licences, s0111e of which were granted just recently where there were no objecttcma, ao the 130 is a bit less than that now, Now what are some of the other changes, Mr. Speaker, in the legislation? Then~ Newfoundland Liquor Corporation will have to have its budget approved by the Minister of Finance and the government, They 6163

April 27 • 1973 Tape No. 1321 NM - 12 MR. CROSBIE: will have to make a report every year to the minister on their operations. It has to be audited by the Audtor General and that will h~ve to be tabled in the House. The Liquor Licencing Board will also have to make a report each year which will be tabled in the House,with respect to licenci