March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 209 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, March 17, 1976 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 212

An Act to Amend The Fuel Oil Licensing Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a bill,

An Act to Amend The Fuel Oil Licensing Act. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of Bill 212 would be to prevent integrated oil companies from owning or operating service stations. [Leave granted; Bill 212 introduced and read a first time] Bill 223

An Act to Amend The Age of Majority Act MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 223,

An Act to Amend The Age of Majority Act. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to amend The Liquor Control Act, The Liquor Licensing Act, and The Liquor Plebiscites Act. The purpose is to raise the age of drinking from 18 years of age to 20. This is the first revision of these figures since the former Social Credit government adjusted the age from 21 down to 18 in the spring of 1971. MR. NOTLEY: Put that under Government Bills and Orders. DR. BUCK: It's known as The Age of Majority Act. [Leave granted; Bill 223 introduced and read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. ASHTON: Mr.

Speaker, a week ago, the hon. Minister of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife attended a Sherwood Park sportspersons dinner at which three outstanding young people of Sherwood Park were honored. They are in the members gallery. With the indulgence of the House, I would like to introduce them individually. But I'll ask the hon. members to withhold their recognition till the end. The first young person to receive recognition is an honor student in high school, who is very highly respected by adults and young alike.

He holds provincial and zone records in track and field, an outstanding linesman award in football, and is the leading scorer on his basketball team. He excels in hockey, curling and other sports. The young man is Mike Wolfram. The next outstanding young person is a young lady with a very high academic record. She's captain of her basketball and volleyball teams where she excels. She excels in many other sports, is president of the girls' athletic board, and is sports rep. on the students' union. She has organized a coaches' clinic and many other fund raising projects — Laurie Couzens.

This young gentleman last year had a 91.6 per cent average in Grade 11. He has received many academic awards, the best athlete award for his school, he is students' union president. He excels in many, many sports. He is also a star member of the Archbishop Jordan High School Scots, who again won the provincial high school championship in Ponoka last week — Dan Lacroix. They are accompanied by several of their parents, who are very justifiably proud, and by the president of the Sherwood Park minor hockey association, Bruce Giesbrecht, and Mrs. Giesbrecht, who sponsored the sportspersons dinner.

I'll ask them all now to stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. WOLSTENHOLME: Mr. Speaker, I'm very honored and pleased today to introduce a group of students on behalf of the hon. Member for Edmonton Meadowlark. They are 26 Grade 5 students from the Sherwood Elementary School. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Lyle Gubenville. I would ask that they rise and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of myself and my colleague, the hon. Member for Edmonton Parkallen, I'd like to introduce a group of some 55 Grade 5 students from Lendrum School.

They are in the members gallery today and I would ask them to rise and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources will appreciate that I deferred to him on this occasion for this introduction by him, since it's such a rare event in the Assembly. I rise this afternoon to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, a group of Grade 5 and 6 students from Alex Taylor School in my constituency. They are accompanied by teachers, Mr. Lerohl and Mr. Melnyk. They are seated in the public gallery.

I would ask that they rise to be recognized by the members of the Assembly. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to legislation, I have the honor of tabling the second annual report of the Alberta Educational Communications Corporation, ACCESS. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a number of reports which I wish to table as required by statute: a report of inspection of laboratory animal care and facilities at Alberta universities; Sessional Paper No. 4, the annual report of The Human Resources Research Council; Sessional Paper No. 76, The Blind

210 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 Persons Act; Sessional Paper No. 77, The Disabled Persons Act; Sessional Paper No. 78, The Old Age Assistance Act. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to Motion for Return No. 107, asked for by Mr. Taylor. MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the annual report for 1975 of the Research Council of Alberta as required by statute. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Education MR. KOZIAK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to advise the House of a revised formula for urban school system transportation grants, some additional elements of the rural transportation grants, and some details of the fair share plan for supplementary requisition equalization grants. Mr. Speaker, the basis of the urban transportation grant formula which replaces the previous formula is: a single schedule, independent of district size; a universal 1.5 mile walk limit for all pupils; elimination of the 90 per cent of actual cost factor; an incentive to make greater use of regular public transit services. The details, Mr.

Speaker, are: first, effective January 1, 1976, such boards will be entitled to receive up to $80 per eligible pupil transported. This replaces the previous limits of 90 per cent of actual costs up to $49.50 for public carriers and $104.50 for board-owned or privately contracted services. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, effective January 1, 1976, support for pupils who are provided special transpor­ tation because of severe mental or physical handicaps will be raised to $3.25 per day. This replaces the previous rate of up to 90 per cent of $2.50, and represents an increase over the previous rate, Mr.

Speaker, of over 44 per cent. Third, Mr. Speaker, effective July 1, 1976, only pupils living 1.5 miles or more from the school they are designated to attend will be eligible for provincial support. Of course, Mr. Speaker, that excludes those handicapped children I referred to earlier. In the rural transportation system, Mr. Speaker, previous announcements did not detail formulas for vehicles under 12 passengers, for support of school board payments to parents in lieu of school system transportation, or for maintenance allowances when children must live away from home to attend appro­ priate schools. Mr.

Speaker, entitlements will be based on a per pupil rate of $2 per day, up to $8 per vehicle for cars or station wagons, or $14 per day for a van; on a fleet basis, 30 cents per mile for miles over 30. Route mileage will be calculated as defined in previous statements of the rural transportation plan. In the rural areas, Mr. Speaker, effective January 1, 1976, support for pupils who are provided special transportation because of severe mental or physical handicaps will be raised to $3.25 per day — again an increase in excess of 44 per cent.

Payments in lieu of transportation up to 30 cents per mile between the residence and the school or bus route, to a maximum of $2.50 per day; payments in support of boarding allowances will be up to $3.50 per day. Mr. Speaker, in the area of the supplementary requisition equalization grant, this grant was estab­ lished in 1975 to provide more equitable treatment for school systems which have low corporate and per pupil assessments. For 1976, systems which have a per pupil adjusted equalized assessment under $14, 100 and supplementary mill rates over 10 will be entitled to full benefits under the plan.

Systems with mill rates under 10 get a proportionate benefit. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Sexsmith Rapeseed Plant MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct the first question to the Minister of Agriculture. It deals with the Northern Alberta Rapeseed Processors Co-op Limited in Sexsmith.

I would like to ask the minister if the Department of Agriculture or the minister's office has been involved in the patent problems the co-op is having regarding the upgrading process of that portion of the plant and the problem the plant is having with the patents not registered and the equipment not forthcoming from Germany. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is dealing with some technical problems. I don't at all follow his statement that patents are not obtainable for equipment which now exists within that plant. I think, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is really referring to a second stage of the proposed plant which has to do with Alpha Laval equipment which may or may not go into the plant and which would be obtained from Sweden. Mr. Speaker, I would only say that if the hon. member could make his question a motion for return, perhaps I could provide the information in that way. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the minister in a position to indicate to the House whether the Department of Agriculture has caused an internal report to be done with regard to the viability now of the rapeseed processing plant at Sexsmith? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Agri­ culture does have a member on the co-op's board of directors in the person of the director of marketing of the Alberta Department of Agriculture. There is a continuous overview of the development of the plant and the financial-production side of the entire opera­ tion.

In addition to that, the Agricultural Development Corporation is presently proceeding with, and is very near to completing, a study of the construction and operation of the entire plant related to its feasibility. I am not aware, Mr. Speaker, that either member, who is appointed to the board of directors by the Minister of Agriculture or the Agricultural Development Corpo­ ration, has any reports that may have been referred to in recent newspaper articles. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question to the minis­ ter.

Has the minister caused a recent report or evaluation of the project to be done as a result of activities from his office?

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 211 MR. MOORE: The only recent evaluation that has been done, Mr. Speaker, is a result of a request by the owners of the plant for a loan guarantee from the Agricultural Development Corporation. The corpora­ tion is doing the normal kind of business survey they do when these requests come in. I might say that this one is rather extensive because of the size of the operation. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, just one last supplementary question on the matter so there is no misunderstanding.

My question once again to the minister is: has the minister instructed officials in the Department of Agriculture to do a reassessment of the Sexsmith rapeseed plant within the last, let's say, month? MR. MOORE: No, Mr. Speaker. As I said, there is a continual assessment by department officials who sit on the board of directors of the co-op. In addition to that, an assessment has been carried out by the Agricultural Development Corporation as a result of the request to that corporation for a loan guarantee. Indeed, that has occurred probably within the last six weeks to two months. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Did the assessment carried out by the Agricultural Development Corpora­ tion review the relationship of the co-op with Euro- Cana Trade Ltd., and assess whether or not the German part of the partnership was in fact keeping its part of the bargain? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, to my knowledge that assessment is not yet complete. I have not had an opportunity to review the assessment that was carried out by the Agricultural Development Corporation, or is presently being carried out by them. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Has the Department of Agriculture compiled any statistics on the general market outlook for rapeseed oil? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, we do have some statis­ tics with regard to the general market outlook for vegetable oils on a worldwide basis. Hon. members would appreciate that rapeseed oil amounts to something less than 2 per cent of the total supply of vegetable oils on the world market. They would know as well that the present situation is that the vegetable oil market is slightly depressed.

That can turn around quite quickly and I would suggest that beyond the immediate year probably no one has any very accurate information with regard to the vegetable oil market for example in 1977 or '78. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister. In light of the somewhat depressed market at the present time, has the government given any special consideration, or any assessment, to the impact of that market on either the existing or projected processing industry in Alberta? MR. MOORE: Indeed we have, Mr. Speaker.

My remarks during the course of budget debate last week indicated the Government of Alberta is extensively involved with respect to trying to maintain fair and equitable tariff barriers in other countries for our products. Certainly rapeseed oil is one of those products that can be made more viable by tariff barriers that are more favourable to crushers in this province and western Canada. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have just one final supplementary question to the hon. minister for clari­ fication. Can the minister advise the Assembly whether one of the reasons the Ag.

Development Corporation is now doing an assessment of the NARP project is that the government is considering, as an option, taking over the entire project to guarantee both the co-op and the government funding? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge whatsoever of any suggestion or attempt by the Government of Alberta to take over that particular project. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a further supplementary to the minister? Mr.

Minister, I was wondering whether officials of your department have made any assessment as to the impact of the earlier strikes on the west coast and their effect on potential buyers of rapeseed. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, a number of studies with respect to the impact of strikes on the west coast have been done, not only within this Department of Agriculture but also by federal government agencies. Mr. Speaker, they are probably far too detailed to elaborate on in the question period. MR. NOTLEY: Put it on the Order Paper. Budget Briefing MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my second question to the Provincial Treasurer. Is it his intention to have officials of the Treasury Department brief people in the media tomorrow on the new format with regard to the budget. MR. LEITCH: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I understand a meeting has been arranged where members of the department will be explaining the program budgeting format to the news media. I understand they will be using the documents tabled in the House some time ago — I think with the Estimates in February 1975, or at the time we debated the motion on program budgeting. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer. I wonder if the Provincial Treasurer would be prepared to consider making the same officials of the department available so some of the research people for the official opposition would have the benefit of the same kind of background. So come Monday next, we wouldn't make any statements that might make the Provincial Treasurer's face any redder than usual.

212 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the request under advisement. At the moment, I see no difficulty about meeting it. Beer Retail Outlets MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Solicitor General. I wonder if the general . . . AN HON. MEMBER: Three stars. MR. KUSHNER: . . . has any statistics or information on beer being sold in grocery stores, Safeway, or Co-op stores in other provinces in Canada. If so, would the Solicitor General welcome such legislation to permit beer to be sold in grocery stores in Alberta? MR. FARRAN: Mr.

Speaker, as the general responsi­ ble for the liquor, I will certainly look into whether we have any statistics relating to, say, the province of Quebec where beer is sold in grocery stores. The only statistics I have at hand are that we take second place to no one in the consumption of alcohol, whether they sell it through liquor stores or liquor vendor stores. Our consumption has gone up 68 per cent in the last 10 years. Since you ask for this direct opinion, Mr. Speaker, I feel that the situation would not be improved by increasing the number of outlets.

As I measure public opinion at the moment, it's calling for better outlets rather than more. However, I will look into the question of statistics relating to the practice in the province of Quebec. Incidentally, such a step was not recommended by the legislative committee headed by the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo. DR. PAPROSKI: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. Solicitor General confirm the AADAC statement that alcoholism is the second most common serious public health problem in Alberta, ranking second only to coronary heart disease? Quot­ ing the expert, Dr.

Allan Gilbert, in the province of Alberta recently and . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We really should get away from representations to ministers and then asking them to agree with those representations or to debate them. If the hon. member is seeking informa­ tion on a matter of fact, perhaps he could phrase the question otherwise. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, that statement then being a fact, has the hon. minister assured the House with his statement that there will be no significant relaxation of liquor laws in Alberta? MR. FARRAN: Mr.

Speaker, sometime during this session, we'll be introducing a new liquor licensing act and an amendment to The Liquor Control Act. I think it might be well if hon. members would save their curiosity until that time when it can be exten­ sively debated by everyone on the floor of the House. Railway Policy MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Transportation. It deals with the question of high­ speed trains.

Has the minister had an opportunity to meet with Pierre Delagrave, former CN vice-president, to discuss the feasibility of what's called the LRC, or very rapid train, between Edmonton and Calgary? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, no. I haven't had an opportunity to visit with the gentleman the hon. member notes. However, we have done some prelim­ inary feasibility studies relative to the Calgary- Edmonton situation. I'd be quite willing to table those studies in the Legislature. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly today on the cost of upgrading the tracks between Edmonton and Calgary to make high-speed trains feasible? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, in the preliminary report we now have, the total capital cost is in the area — and I'm going from memory now — of about $500 million. That doesn't include such things as the fencing and the very many overpasses that would have to be built in relation to such an operation. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Has the Government of Alberta developed any overall policy with respect to railway passenger transportation within the province of Alberta? DR. HORNER: We haven't completed our studies in that area, Mr. Speaker, but we will be having a consultant doing some work relative to passenger travel within the province of Alberta. Rail will be one of the modes that will be looked at, as will others. So I would hope later on in the year we might come to, and indeed should come to, some conclusions and make some representations with regard to the latest emanations from the Minister of Transport in Ottawa. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question for clarification. It is the intention, then, of the Government of Alberta to make representation to Ottawa with respect to Mr. Lang's so-called rationa­ lization program? Could I ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, whether any preliminary assessment has been made by the Government of Alberta of the so-called rationalization scheme? DR. HORNER: Our preliminary assessment, Mr.

Speaker, is that it's a little bit irrational to suggest that — indeed both us and neighboring Saskatchewan — you can take a large portion of the province and leave it without transcontinental pas­ senger service. That's our initial assessment. The assessment with regard to the rapid transit idea between Calgary and Edmonton is such a fan­ tastic capital expenditure that I don't believe that's the answer. So we'll be having a look at a variety of other ways in which it might be done. I'll be meeting with the transportation ministers later this month in

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 213 Vancouver. Indeed, the hon. member may know that the CTC has scheduled hearings in Edmonton for May 31, I believe, and in Calgary for June 7. Grain Shipping MR. SHABEN: My question, Mr. Speaker, is also to the Deputy Premier and the Minister of Transporta­ tion. The question is: is the minister aware of diffi­ culties in moving grain out of northern Alberta and the Peace River country? If so, what steps are being taken to improve the situation? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, yes, there has been undue congestion at some of the delivery points in northern Alberta.

I believe one of the preliminary benefits we've had from our representations to the Hall Commission and to the federal minister is the announcement that hopper cars are now going to be available for service on the NAR. Up until now they have not been available. This should increase the availability of moving grain out of the northern area. Indeed, I would hope all hon. members are giving me any advice they might have relative to our proposition that we should have one operating authority for all the railways in northern Alberta. Urban Transportation MR. PURDY: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation. Has the minister had an opportunity to study the Edmonton Regional Planning Commission's policy paper on mass transportation in Edmonton and the surrounding rural area for its effects on any plans the minister has for the area represented by the Edmonton Regional Planning Commission? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had an oppor­ tunity to look at their position paper in any detail, but only at the press reports about the change of emphasis, if you like, from the individual automobile to public transit.

Certainly, I think that's the general mood in urban transportation. We have to look at an increase in public transit as opposed to the private automobile. That's not to say for a moment that the private automobile is very likely to disappear. On the other hand, I think it will fit in with our longer range plans in bringing highway access into the city of Edmonton and, indeed, into the city of Calgary as well. MR. PURDY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In view of the policy paper of the Edmonton Regional Planning Commission, will the minister cancel the study now being done by Lions Clubs around Edmonton?

That was commissioned to give the minister an indication as to the needs of the people are in regard to transportation. DR. HORNER: No, Mr. Speaker, because I believe the survey the Lions Clubs are doing for us is an essential part of the ongoing evaluation of public transit needs in the metropolitan area. Therefore it should tie in with what the Regional Planning Commission is talking about as well. Edmonton Regional Growth DR. BUCK: Supplementary either to the Minister of Transportation or the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Has the government given any of the surrounding towns — say within a 25-mile radius of Edmonton — any direction as to whether they will be considered satellite towns and encouraged to grow to, say, 100,000 people? Is this possibly an attempt to limit the size of Edmonton? Is this a government concept, or has it been looked at? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the honorable gent­ leman from Clover Bar is of course making a very good reference to the Land Use Forum's recommen­ dations which, indeed, talk about this specific prob­ lem.

I'm not ready to make a statement whether we favor a unitary or a regional form of government until perhaps that debate has been concluded. Further to that, of course, the hon. member knows the Edmonton regional growth studies are now proceed­ ing. Some of that information will be revealed to us when that is completed. Dental Care Program MR. TAYLOR: My question is to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. I might say she looks beautiful in her new St. Patrick's costume. That is not my question, Mr. Speaker.

Last November I asked the hon. minister if she was looking into the dental care program. She said she had her teeth into the problem. My question is: have her teeth reached anything solid yet? MISS HUNLEY: My colleague advises me not to bite on that question, Mr. Speaker. I think that to say we haven't been doing anything in a very visible way would probably be accurate. It's a very far-reaching thing that must be done, and this work is under way within the department. It would only apply, without a doubt, either to catastrophic dental needs or to those who are very young.

We're continuing our preventive programs and I think that should be our first thrust before we get into such things as treatment. Driedmeat Lake Weir MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of the Environment. I was wondering if he could advise me and my constituents why the stopgap logs were removed from the new Driedmeat Lake weir which, by the way, dropped the lake to its former level. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I'd have to check to see if the logs had in fact ever been put in. I don't think they were, but I could be wrong on that.

In any event, whether they've been removed or have never been put in, there is a reason for keeping them out. It's involved with discussions we're having with the adjoining landowners, Mr. Speaker, to settle where the shoreline is and where private lands and Crown lands begin so the proper compensation can

214 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 be made for land acquisitions that are under way. I'm advised that that's the situation. MR. STROMBERG: Supplementary to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that surveying has been carried on for the last two years and was completed before Christmas? MR. RUSSELL: Well, this is exactly what the problem is about, Mr. Speaker. The landowners — I think quite justifiably — are saying that the new structure has in fact affected the natural water level and, therefore, has moved the property lines.

The water is being given a good opportunity to follow its natural course without any impediment so that situation can be clarified. MR. STROMBERG: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Would the minister instruct his department to put these logs back, because of the danger of a fish die-off later this month? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I'm advised that the winter fish-kill is an ordinary thing that happens every winter, with or without the structure. I think it would be best, in the long run solution to this problem, to leave the logs out until the land acquisition problems are settled.

Proposed Federal Penitentiary DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. I'd like to know if the hon. minister has had any consultation with the M.D. of Sturgeon regarding the citizens protesting and petitioning against the pro­ posed new federal penitentiary in the Horse Hills- Oliver area? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge I have not been petitioned regarding that matter. Southeastern Alberta Waterworks MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

It's in regard to the new aqueduct that was under construction in Brooks. Were there discussions with the province and DREE officials before they put the freeze on construction of the aqueduct in the Brooks area? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, since the honorable gentleman's initial question yesterday, I've secured some information on that topic. They were not really discussions as such.

We were simply informed by the federal government, in this case by the PFRA — a group which is under the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion — that they had $4 million in their 1975-76 budget for work on the Brooks aque­ duct, but because construction wasn't started, that item was dropped from their '76-77 budget. The construction was not started last year due to delays in acquiring the land. Being sensitive to the landowners in the area, the province has been attempting to acquire the land by negotiation rather than force, taken under expropriation. I am informed that this has saved money.

The construction being delayed for one year, the maintenance costs will be shared over the ensuing year by the Eastern Irrigation District, and provincial and federal governments. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Have there been any discussions with DREE officials recently on rehabilitation of the Bassano dam or the construction of the dam at Eyremore on the Bow River? MR. HYNDMAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there have been considerable discussions with regard to three possible alternatives: first, the repair of the existing Bassano dam; secondly, construction of a new dam immediately downstream; or a third option, the con­ struction of a dam at the Eyremore site. The PFRA people are providing more information as to the variances between cost of repair and a new structure. At the moment, a new dam immediately downstream from the existing site appears to be possibly the most favorable one, because if there were a dam built at the Eyremore site, a great deal more land would have to be flooded.

However, discussions are still ongoing and no final decision has been made. Water and Sewer Program MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to precede my question by saying I could not help but notice that you had entered through the other entrance to the House. We members on this side feel very proud that we have made a marked accomplishment. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

Would the minister advise whether it is his intention to improve the water and sewer assistance program, which would enable small villages and hamlets to acquire these services and benefits? MR. RUSSELL: The long-range objective of the de­ partment would be to carry out improvements to the program that would do those very things, Mr. Speak­ er. I'm sorry we haven't been able to expand the program this year because of the 11 per cent budgetary guidelines that the departments are trying to maintain. But we're aware of that problem and hope to implement those improvements in the future. MR.

STROMBERG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. When a health officer orders a county, in the case of a hamlet, to get on top of its sewage problem, what recourse has a county in those circumstances? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I suppose where the system has gone to pot . . . AN HON. MEMBER: Oh! MR. RUSSELL: . . . the municipality would still be able to take advantage of the level of assistance now available, and that would still be a substantial help to them. The Member for Vegreville was talking about an expanded level of financial assistance for the more sparsely populated communities, which would make

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 215 it more economically feasible for them. But if there were a health problem they'd be obliged to proceed, notwithstanding the current level of assistance. MR. BATIUK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Housing and Public Works. Could the minister advise whether the SHIP program could be used for people to make these improvements and add these facilities to their homes? DR. BUCK: SHIP. AN HON. MEMBER: Careful. MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, the senior citizens' home improvement program can be used for tie-ins into existing water or sewage systems, but not necessarily with respect to application to a village's entire system. Provincial Municipal Finance Committee MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and ask if he'd be in a position to give the House some sort of indication as to the stage of the deliberations by the committee that's been set up to look at municipal- provincial finance? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, of course the comple­ xity of that has been referred to many times by me and others in this House. But it's an ongoing process which would probably be best left to an address or a debate. For example, I'm sure if we went into consideration of my budget, it might be one time to elaborate on that. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question to the minis­ ter. Recognizing that it's an ongoing problem, and has been for at least a year now, is the minister in a position to indicate when he expects a report from the committee — either a progress report or a final report — that will be tabled in the Assembly? MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I can't say when a final report will be completed, indeed because the kinds of studies are ongoing — many interactions between assessment, revenue sharing, and various kinds of problems. I suppose it might be reasonable that as some of the items now in policy deliberation points go beyond policy, those could be tabled. But it's my understanding that while we'll still considering our policy positions, that information would be retained by government itself. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister.

Is the minister in a position to give an undertaking to the Assembly that the recommendations made by the committee in the areas the minister referred to — once the government has finalized a policy position on those matters — that the minister would be prepared to table those reports of the advisory committee with the Assembly? MR. JOHNSTON: Again, it requires that the hon. Leader of the Opposition understand the kinds of research we are doing. There is some very detailed information in statistical form with certain kinds of classifications involved.

We also have resolutions and some interim papers being prepared for us on specific topics. As to a total report, I doubt that it would be available for filing because it is not in book form at this point. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one further supplementary question to the minister. Accepting the minister's answer that in fact we can't receive a final report, can we receive the portions as the government receives them? Once the government has final deliberations on them, can members of the Assembly get portions of the reports as they are available? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I imagine that in the normal process with which we treat these matters, once the policy deliberations have been completed and either regulations have been changed or legisla­ tion has been enacted, the research would be available. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last question. Is the minister then prepared to give a commitment to the Assembly that he will table the papers with the Assembly once the deliberations have been finalized? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. leader's request is reasonable, yes. Age of Majority MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the hon.

Solicitor General. In light of a certain private member's bill submitted today, can the minister advise the Assembly whether the govern­ ment is seriously entertaining reducing the drinking age in the province of Alberta at this stage? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Reducing? MR. NOTLEY: Increasing it. I'm sorry. Pardon me. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, to what age? The age of six or seven? Would the hon. member please be more specific? MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I must confess that was a slip of the tongue.

I really meant whether the government at this stage of the game is seriously entertaining increasing the drinking age as proposed in the private member's resolution. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I made it clear the other day that 18 seemed to be a fair division between juvenile and adult. It is the age of majority for so many things: entering into a contract, marrying without parental consent, having a full licence to drive an automobile, serving in the armed forces.

The problem was enforcing the prohibition against minors below the age of 18 frequenting taverns and so on — a problem you have whatever age you set. I indicated that as a general — I really am quite amused by that slip of the lip. I know many of my former colleagues in the army would also be amused to think that I have risen to such heights, even by such a devious route. I do not favor any alteration at this time. As I said

216 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 in response to an earlier question from the hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway, all these liquor questions will be before the House very shortly. That is the time to debate them. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion, now that we know there's a major schism in the Tory caucus on this contentious issue. The first one I've seen in five years. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the hon. minister whether the government has conducted any studies on the feasibility or advantage of increasing the drinking age from 18 to 20? MR. FARRAN: First of all, I deny there is any schism.

This is a question that is probably one of individual opinion and conscience, and if it is not contained in the bill, it's perfectly in order for a private member to introduce it. According to the rules of the House, I believe I'm entitled to vote against it if I feel so inclined. I would again say to the hon. member, please be patient, it won't be long before the liquor bills are introduced. Proposed Federal Penitentiary (continued) DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the hon. Solicitor General.

In light of the fact that the proposed prison in the Oliver area seems to be going ahead and will actually require only about one-third of the land asked for, is the Solicitor General in a position to indicate if there has been any study of using this proposed site for a new provincial facility in conjunction with the federal prison? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to be rude but the hon. member did put exactly the same question about one week ago. Perhaps he's forgotten. I said the federal authorities had offered us the possibility of using that site for another facility.

At the time we had not responded to the proposed new young offenders' legislation, so we did not know what facilities might be required in that regard. With the building of the Edmonton remand centre and the extensive and expensive remodelling of Fort Saskat­ chewan, we do not see the need in the immediate future for a replacement for the Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Institute. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the hon. Solicitor General that the reason I asked the question is that this government does change and vacillate quite a bit. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. DR.

BUCK: So I just wanted to know if the answer was the same, two weeks in a row, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs if the minister has made any inquiries to the municipal council to find out if any pressure was brought by the federal government on the municipality to reinstate the expired permit? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, not that I know. According to the general feeling I have with respect to our department, that's a local matter, a regional matter, a question of the local authority. Indeed, we wouldn't get involved in it unless we were requested specifically.

Preaudit Process MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Provincial Treasurer. It is a follow-up to the question I proposed to the Provincial Treasurer two weeks ago Friday. It deals with the preaudit question. I'd like to ask the Provincial Treasurer if he has had a chance to discuss with the Provincial Auditor and can now confirm to the Assembly that the preaudit process is working effectively in all government departments. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I haven't discussed that topic specifically with the auditor in recent days.

Perhaps I'll now take the opportunity to do that and thereafter report to the House. He's out of the province at the moment, I believe, but will be back shortly. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I gave notice of a possible point of privilege regarding comments by the hon. Member for Clover Bar. I've had a chance to review the Hansard . . . MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister wish to bring it up in the question period? Perhaps we should formally conclude the question period before we go on. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I gave notice of a possible point of privilege regarding comments by the hon. Member for Clover Bar. I've had a chance to review [unofficial] Hansard, Mr. Speaker. While I consider the comments completely unfounded and in poor taste, I believe they were directed against a person who is not a member of the Legislature, and as such may not constitute a point of privilege. Although the person referred to was unable to defend himself by not being a member, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, the proper course for the Member for Clover Bar to follow, if he has the courage, would be to repeat the comments outside the House and accept the consequences. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to rise on a point of privilege. Not all in this House are purely Irish, but close, with such names as O'Amerongen, O'Batiuk, and O'Paproski. Recognizing the humb­ leness of the Irish, and in view of this being the glorious day of St. Patrick, for the Irish — the Ukrainian Irish, Polish Irish, and all the other Irish — sincerely, Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure the House would like to wish the Irish health, happiness, prosperity, and peace, and top o' the day for now and for all days. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave of the House to respond to that . . .

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 217 MISS HUNLEY: As the general. MR. FARRAN: As the general in charge of the police, in which the Irish people have distinguished them­ selves through the ages, I think I should respond. I respond, Mr. Speaker, by saying this: St. Patrick was a 'dacent' man, He was born of decent people. He built a church in Dublin town And on it built a steeple. And that's all we know about him. Except one other little thing. I give you a toast to St. Patrick, Mr. Speaker: Here's a toast to St. Patrick's fist, For he's a saint so clever.

He gave the snakes and toads a twist And banished them forever. Mr. Speaker, St. Patrick has accorded a similar blessing to Alberta, except in one remote corner where we have a few rattlers. But he's added the additional blessing of also casting out all rats from this province. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Mr. Hyndman proposed the following motion to the Assembly:

Be it resolved that the report of the chairman of the special committee containing lists of members to compose the following select standing committees be now received and concurred in: (

a) Privileges and Elections, Standing Orders and Printing (

b) Public Accounts (

c) Private Bills (

d) Law and Regulations (

e) Public Affairs [Motion carried] 2. Mr. Hyndman proposed the following motion to the Assembly.

Be it resolved that the Assembly adopt the following amendments to Standing Orders, to be effective until the prorogation of the Second Session of the Eighteenth Legislature: 1. Standing Order 8 is amended by striking out subor­ ders (2) and (3) and by substituting the following therefor: 2. (

a) The order of business for the consideration of the Assembly on Tuesday afternoon shall be as follows: Written Questions Motions for Returns Government Designated Business Motions other than Government Motions Private Bills Public Bills and Orders other than Gov­ ernment Bills and Orders Government Motions Government Bills and Orders (

b) When government designated business is called, the Assembly shall consider any item of business which the Government Whip has designated by giving written notice to the Clerk prior to 12 noon on the previous Friday of his designation of any motion other than a government motion or any government bills or orders or any government motion from those set down on the Order Paper for that Friday. (

c) The Clerk shall cause any designation pur­ suant to clause (

b) to be printed in Votes and Proceedings for that Friday. (

d) A motion that has been designated under this suborder may not be designated a second time. (

e) When debate on government designated business has proceeded for one hour, the next order of business shall be called. 3. (

a) The order of business for the consideration of the Assembly on Thursday afternoon shall be as follows: Written Questions Motions for Returns Motions other than Government Motions Public Bills and Orders other than Gov­ ernment Bills and Orders Government Motions Government Bills and Orders (

b) On Thursday, when Motions other than Government Motions is called, the As­ sembly shall consider the next such motion on the Order Paper unless prior to 4 p.m. on the previous Tuesday the Leader of the Opposition has given written notice to the Clerk of his designa­ tion of a motion from those set down by other than government members on the Order Paper for that Tuesday under Motions other than Government Motions, in which case the Assembly shall consider that motion. (

c) The Clerk shall cause any motion designated pursuant to clause (

b) to be printed in Votes and Proceedings for that Tuesday. (

d) A motion that has been designated under this suborder may not be designated a second time. (

e) When debate on motions other than govern­ ment motions has proceeded for one hour the next order of business shall be called. 2.The following standing order is added after Standing Order 36: 36. Notwithstanding any established precedent to the contrary, a member not being a govern­ ment member may have two notices of motion in that member's name on the Order Paper at the same time. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a temporary rule change for the Second Session of the Eighteenth Legislature.

I believe the substance of the motion is self-explanatory and a good deal of it follows a similar motion passed last year. The substance of the motion has been the subject of informal discussions between the Leader of the Opposition and me, and with the caucuses on both sides of the House. [Motion carried]

218 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 head: CONSIDERATION OF HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S SPEECH Mr. Shaben proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an humble address be presented to His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor of Alberta as follows: To His Honour the Honourable Ralph G.

Steinhauer, Lieutenant-Governor of the province of Alberta: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly, now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech Your Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of the present session. [Adjourned debate: Mr. Bogle] MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, and members of the Legislative Assembly, it's an honor for me today to make a few remarks on the 1976 Speech from the Throne, read by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, Mr. Ralph Steinhauer.

Before doing so, I would like to congratulate the members for Lesser Slave Lake and Calgary Bow for their excellent way of moving and seconding the Speech from the Throne. I wear two hats, Mr. Speaker, the first as the MLA for the Taber-Warner constituency, and the second as Minister without Portfolio responsible for native af­ fairs. First, I will deal with my constituency concerns, and second, with my cabinet responsibilities.

I would like to begin by reading what I believe to be the most important single sentence in the Speech from the Throne: "The concept of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund is unique in parliamen­ tary democracy." Never before, Mr. Speaker, has a freely elected democratic government had an opportunity like this, an opportunity to invest funds for future generations. Although the debate may become intense in the weeks to come, I would ask all members to remember the original intent of the fund as an investment in the future, an investment for generations to come.

I would like to give an example of one of the things the Alberta heritage savings trust fund is intended to do, an example that would fall within the capital investment portion of the fund. I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to the agriculture

section in the Speech from the Throne, which reads as follows: Significant progress in upgrading and expanding our irrigation facilities will result in further diversification of Alberta's agricultural base. Many speeches have been made in this Assembly on the importance of irrigation. Statistics have been given which indicate, among other things, that ap­ proximately 4 per cent of the land produces 24 per cent of the agricultural income in the province of Alberta. But today, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to talk about statistics.

I would rather address my remarks to those who are not familiar with irrigation in Alberta, for it must be difficult to understand how and why the massive sum of $200 million is needed for the upgrading and rehabilitation of an irrigation system which already produces so much income in its present state. Many of the canals are old, and the laterals are badly in need of repair. Seepage is a problem that has been plaguing the districts at an alarming rate.

Funds from the capital investment portion of the Alberta heritage savings trust fund will be used to speed up the excellent work that was started by the former government in the late '60s, carried on during the last four and a half years, and accelerated by our present government. To give members of this Assembly an idea of how the districts view the years ahead, I would like to read from the board of directors and managers report to the fifty-seventh annual meeting of the Taber irrigation district.

This is an exciting time to work and be involved in irrigation, to see things renewed and expanded to meet our needs — enough water to our crops on time, and not damaging the soil while doing it. Another area of interest and importance to all Albertans, as well as to my constituency, is housing. According to the Speech from the Throne, Alberta had the largest increase in housing starts of any province last year, approximately 30 per cent. The two largest communities in my constituency —Taber, with a population of over 5,000, and Coaldale, with a population nearing 3,500 — are excellent examples of this growth.

By the end of February, the total value of building permits in the town of Coaldale had exceeded the 1975 total. In terms of dollars, Mr. Speaker, that represents more than $2 million of investment in housing in the town of Coaldale. In the town of Taber there were 33 housing starts in 1973, 42 starts in 1974, and by 1975, Taber recorded 96 housing starts. By all indications, 1976 will see more than 100 housing starts in the town of Taber. Next, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on the rural natural gas program.

The Speech from the Throne indicated that this program is an excellent example of co-operative local enterprise by Alberta citizens. It has been suggested by some members of this Assembly that the public has been misled, that directors are fed up, and that promises were made and subsequently broken by the Alberta government. There are three natural gas co-ops in my constitu­ ency: first, Chin Coulee, which is south and east of Taber; second, Triple W, which is in the Wrentham, Warner, Wilson district; and Chinook, which is in the Masinasin, Coutts, Milk River area.

About three weeks ago I had the privilege of attending two of the three annual gas co-op meetings. The feeling I received from the meetings was one of pride and satisfaction, pride in the local initiative, and satisfaction in the progress that has been made to date. Under the dynamic leadership of people like Roy Neilson and Burl Brentner of Triple W, Ken Welsh and Tom Gilchrist of Chinook, and Alex Powell and Mike and George Leahy of Chin Coulee, the co-ops are standing up for their rights and running their affairs in a most businesslike way. And, Mr. Speaker, they will succeed.

One of the most important steps taken by this government during the past four and one-half years was, I believe, Mr. Speaker, the establishment of the Alberta Opportunity Company. When the term "AOC" is used, many people think of the large motel-hotel developments, the factories, and the other large ventures where capital investments are

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 219 more than half a million dollars, sometimes as high as $1 million or $1.5 million. Far too often we forget about the small, locally owned businesses which are assisted by the support of the Alberta Opportunity Company. I would like to draw to the attention of the members of this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, one such business that I am extremely proud of. I'd like to deliver my story in the following way. There's been a golf course in the town of Milk River for some 46 years. The original course was laid out by CPR workers.

The course is bordered on the north by the town, to the west by Highway 4, and to the south by the Milk River. The golf course occupies approximately 46 acres of land. There are several hills in the eastern section, making an ideal terrain for a golf course. I first took up golf when I was in high school. I remember golfing on the sand greens and on the prairie grass fairways. There were no trees and only a run-down clubhouse. Several golf enthusiasts tried to keep the fairways mowed.

This course, like many of the courses of their day in rural Alberta, was only adequate during the spring, when the prairie grass was green. Four years ago, Harvey and Peggy Nagel and their son Rod approached the town council in Milk River with a plan to turn that golf course into a private enterprise golf course. After the plan was enthusiastically supported by the town, the three approached the Alberta Opportunity Company for assistance. Today, grass greens have replaced the old sand greens. We now have a fairway course with an underground sprinkler system. Many trees sepa­ rate the various fairways.

The old clubhouse has been replaced by a cedar log clubhouse with an area in the basement to store golf carts, as well as change rooms. The annual fees of the Milk River golf club are as follows: $60 for an adult single membership, $80 for a man and wife team, $90 for a family membership, and $20 for a single student. The memberships have been constantly rising over the past three years. In 1975, there were 234 members, which included 53 single adult, 24 man and wife, 25 single student, and 132 family memberships.

With the exception of Thursday night, which is league night, and Sunday afternoons, it is possible to golf at any time without waiting in line to get to a tee-off box. This, Mr. Speaker, is what I believe to be the purpose of the Alberta Opportunity Company: to assist small- and medium-sized, locally owned businesses to develop and make Alberta an even better place in which to live. Next, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on my cabinet responsibilities, the most pressing area being housing. To talk adequately about this subject, Mr.

Speaker, I have to go back to the spring of 1973, when a meeting was hosted by the Metis Association of Alberta in the town of Slave Lake. At that time, a number of position papers were presented to Premier Lougheed and ministers Allen Adair and Neil Crawford. One of the most pressing concerns presented at that time lay in the area of housing, and a commitment was made by Premier Lougheed that $1 million would be placed in the 1973-74 estimates for Metis housing. In the spring session, that $1 million was placed in the budget.

In the area of identification of priorities, the Metis Association was asked to work in conjunction with the Indian-Metis liaison group and Alberta Housing Corporation. A number of problems had to be overcome. In the area of land tenure, miscellaneous leases, and short-term leases, although we've only begun to work in the area of land tenure, the land tenure secretariat is now in operation in the Wabasca-Desmarais area. It's my hope that under the direction of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that secretariat will successfully bring forward a lot of recommendations for land tenure.

By August 1973, sufficient work had been done to identify a number of communities where houses could be built. An order of 50 units was placed with Kanai Industries on the Blood Reserve. Since then, Mr. Speaker, additional funds have been placed in the Metis housing

section of the budget. In conjunc­ tion with that, the province entered into an agreement with CMHC under

Section 40, whereby together houses could be built for the native people throughout the province. Just a quick

summary, Mr. Speaker. Between 1973 and 1976, a total of 146 houses have been built under the Metis housing program, and an additional 20 are under construction at the present time, for a total of 166. In addition to that, there are 27 trailers for emergency housing needs. In the joint Alberta Housing Corporation-Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, under

Section 40, 51 units have presently been built and 149 are currently being put in place this spring, for a total of 200. That brings to a total of 388 the number of housing units constructed between 1973 and the present, Mr. Speaker. The year 1876 was of paramount importance to the settlement of Alberta. In that year, at Fort Pitt, the Cree, Iroquois and Chipewyan Indians agreed with the Queen's representative, and a treaty was signed which is known today as Treaty No. 6. One hundred years later, in 1976, one third of Alberta's status Indians live within Treaty Area No. 6.

A comme­ morative program has been established jointly by the Treaty Indians of this area and the provincial govern­ ment to foster a new partnership and understanding between native and non-native Albertans; to gain a better understanding of each other's heritage, tradi­ tions, and customs; and to stress the contributions made in the development of present day Alberta by the native community. The four components of the program, Mr.

Speaker, are a special events section, which includes cere­ monies of the anniversary of the signing of the treaty; grants to assist native organizations in commemorat­ ing the various events; and what I believe to be the most important single part of the program, the educational program, so we can expand our native content in all courses at schools so that more emphasis will be placed on history, traditions, and the culture of the Plains Indian. Finally, a series of treaty commemoration publications to be made available for schools and the general public at large.

The co­ ordinating committee consists of Chief Joe Dion as chairman, Chief Frank Buffalo as a member of the committee, counsellors Wilf McDougall and Alex Crowchild, along with Tom Cardinal from the Indian Association of Alberta. Another area of accomplishment during the past year is policing on Indian reserves. An agreement was ratified by the federal and provincial

220 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 governments on a three-year training program, which calls for 12 constables of native origin to be trained each year, for a total of 36 over the three years. This was done because of the recommendations the task force prepared in 1973 entitled, "Policing on Reser­ ves". The main recommendation of the report was that more native police should be involved. Other provinces with similar agreements are Sas­ katchewan, Prince Edward Island, and Ontario. The provinces of British Columbia, Quebec, and Manitoba are currently negotiating.

Today, native RCMP con­ stables are located at detachments at Valleyview, Pincher Creek, Cochrane, Cardston, Gleichen, Slave Lake, High Prairie, Fort Macleod, and St. Paul, and 10 of the original 12 recruits are in the field. In the area of employment, much has been said about what we haven't done, and what the natives haven't done to help themselves. I'd like to turn to a few stories that I believe are successful, and are often overshadowed by the unsuccessful stories. We can look at a small house-building plant at Lac La Biche called New Dawn Housing, where log homes are being constructed.

We can look at Kanai Industries on the Blood Reserve. We can look at the Sawridge Motor Hotel in the town of Slave Lake. We can look at the Lac La Biche fish co-op plant. Individuals like Chief Walter Twinn, Stan Smith, and Fred Gladstone are outstanding examples of what can be done if the peoples are given a chance. I'm also proud of the accomplishments we have made in the area of social services.

I look to organiza­ tions like the Native Counselling Service under Chester Cunningham, the Native Friendship Centres with dynamic people like Thelma Belrose, and the Alberta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission and its newest appointed board member, Wilton Goodstriker. There are agreements in place, Mr. Speaker, like the Blackfoot agreement. Others such as the Sturgeon Lake agreement are under current negotia­ tion. Mr. Speaker, I might add that this morning I had breakfast with the Chief-in-Council of the Stur­ geon Lake band in Valleyview.

There is a great deal of pride in what they are doing and the accomplish­ ments they are making. They know they have a long way to go. But they are determined to go about it in a proper way. Gas co-ops, and recreation complexes with input from the department, are being organized on some of the reserves. The senior citizens' home improvement program is available to senior citizens on reserves. In the area of postsecondary education, there are three outstanding examples of what can be done if given a chance: the Old Sun campus on the Blackfoot Reserve; Blue Quill School, just out of St.

Paul; and the native American studies program at the University of Lethbridge. People like Ron Schrimshaw and Leroy Little Bear are showing the way. Mr. Speaker, there have been some concerns about the reorganization of Native Affairs. My first task eleven and one-half months ago was to get out and see, speak with and most important, listen to, the native people of this province. During my many visits to the various parts of Alberta, it became clear to me that we, in Native Affairs, needed a change in direction.

The Indian and Metis people of this province have moved a long way in the area of identifying their own needs. We have changed our group's name from Indian Metis Liaison Group to the Native Secretariat. But more important, Mr. Speaker, we have changed our direction. No longer are we doing the field work. That is now being done by organizations such as the Metis Association of Alberta, the Indian Association of Alberta, the Voice of Alberta Native Women's Society, and the Isolated Communities Advisory Board, along with other groups.

Our role now is one of assisting the various groups and organizations to come into contact with government departments, boards, and commissions. Our role is to assist, not direct; to help, not hinder. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to turn to the remarks made by the hon. Leader of the Opposi­ tion in his reply to the Speech from the Throne on Monday, March 8, in which he indicated that moneys from the Alberta heritage savings trust fund — or at least the interest from the fund — might be used to help native people. Although the intent of the remarks made by the hon.

Member for Olds-Didsbury is commendable, I fear the results. For too many years, we as govern­ ments, both federal and provincial, have been setting up special funds and programs for our native citizens. Mr. Speaker, I might add that most of these programs were never discussed with the native people until they were implemented. Too often, the proposals were unworkable and unacceptable to the native citizens. When the programs failed, we all know who was blamed as being unco-operative. No, Mr. Speaker, the Alberta heritage savings trust fund is for all Albertans.

In this most significant year, the one hundredth anniversary of the signing of Treaty No. 6, let us begin our second hundred years with the co-operation and understanding of each other's heritage, traditions, and customs; without any handouts, without any gimmicks, and without any giveaway programs, but rather, an appreciation of our cultures, and a desire to achieve a better quality of life and improved opportunities for all Albertans. Thank you. DR. WALKER: Mr. Speaker, with the indulgence of yourself and members of the Assembly, I have very little to say on the topics under discussion today.

But as today is March 17, more often referred to all over the world as the seventeenth of Ireland, and being the only home-produced Irishman in the House, — this being my first seventeenth of March in this seat, too — I thought it only right and proper to say a few words to you today. With all due respect, and without any prejudice to the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo — who, I see, unfortunately isn't in his seat — I'd like to quote you a little ditty which goes: Roses are reddish, Violets are bluish; If it weren't for the Irish, The world would be Jewish.

This, of course, refers to the enormous multitude of people emanating from both these great races who have spread all over the world. While the people from Israel can claim such great names as Disraeli and Kissinger, I would remind you that 19 of the 37 presidents of the United States were of direct Irish

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 221 descent, 18 of them from my own small province of Ulster. Here in Canada, at least one of the Fathers of Confederation, the Hon. D'Arcy McGee, was a full- blooded Irishman. In Alberta, the Irish have contrib­ uted enormously to the growth and development of our province. The first one here was Commissioner French, who headed up the great trek west of the North West Mounted Police from Dauphin, Manitoba, to the present site of Fort Macleod.

One of his staff, Colonel James Walker, now well known in Calgary as their citizen of the century, was also from northern Ireland via Ontario, where he was born. In the fields of medicine and law, we have contrib­ uted many great names to the Alberta college and the the Alberta bar, one of the better known being the late judge Alan Cullen, who had the great foresight to arrange for his birth in the town of Fort Macleod. Ireland produces over 250 doctors every year. Ninety per cent of these emigrate to other lands, many of them to Alberta.

In the field of politics, in this first Legislature — which, as we were informed, was formed 70 years ago last Monday — there were two native-born Irishmen in the House, in that first Legislature in 1905, as well as those of Irish ancestry. William Thomas Finlay, who was the MLA for Medicine Hat, and was provincial secretary and Minister of Agricul­ ture, and John T. Moore, the MLA from Red Deer. As I look around this Assembly, I see many who claim Irish ancestry and many who would like to claim it. I would mention in particular the hon. members from Banff, Calgary Millican, Lethbridge East, Drumheller, St.

Albert, Hanna-Oyen, Smoky River, Calgary North Hill, Pincher Creek-Crowsnest, Taber-Warner, and even Calgary West, to mention just a few. Since the hon. Solicitor General's education on St. Patrick appears to be rather limited, I would like to tell you a little about the patron saint of Ireland. He was not an Irishman, but he is loved by Irishmen the world over. He wrote a book in Latin called The Book of Armagh, which can still be viewed in the cathedral he built in my home town, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland.

His writings provide us with our only contemporary narrative of the conversion of Ireland to Christianity. But there were Christians in Ireland before St. Patrick — in fact, sufficient to justify the appointment of a bishop for them by Rome in 431 A.D. In his writings, he tells us he was a native of Roman Britain, born probably at Dunbarton in Scotland — although later scholars say he may have come from further south.

At any rate, at the age of 16 he, along with thousands of others, was captured by Irish raiders and spent six years in captivity in Ireland, tending sheep in the woods and on the mountain — the same woods and mountain I often tramped as a child. During this time, he turned to matters of religion. Finally, he escaped to Britain. He would have stayed there had it not been for a vision which he recounts: And there I saw in the night the vision of a man whose name was Victoricus, coming as it were from Ireland, with countless letters.

And he gave me one of them and I read the opening words of the letter which were: "The Voice of the Irish". And as I read the beginning of the letter I thought that at the same moment I heard their voice. They were those beside the wood of Foclut, which is near the western sea. And thus did they cry out as with one mouth: "We ask thee, boy, come and walk among us once more." So he came to Ireland in the year 432, he tells in his book of his missionary works. He baptized thousands, ordained clergy everywhere, gave presents to kings, was put in irons, lived in daily expectation of murder, treachery, or captivity.

Things haven't changed very much in 1,500 years. In another part of his book, he says he rejoiced to see the flock of the Lord in Ireland, growing splendidly with the greatest care, and the sons and daughters of kings becoming monks and virgins of Christ. There are still lots of monks around. There are lots of stories, such as the hon. Solicitor General told, about St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland. Mr. Speaker, there were never any snakes in Ireland in the first place. But if there were, I think he drove them all to North America.

Three countries in the world, Ireland, Australia, and Argentina, can boast more cattle than people. Ireland was the last great outpost of western Europe. It is the only part of it that did not hear the tramp of the Roman legions. She never held herself aloof from Europe, and shared its cultural heritage. Missionary monks are still remembered from the Loire to the heel of Italy when they were sent out from the monastery at Glendalough when Europe was in the throes of ignorance and barbarism. Hence we became known as the land of saints and scholars.

To say the Irish are a Celtic race is even more a generalization than to say the English are Anglo- Saxons. The truth is, we are a mixture. We banished the Danes with some difficulty after two centuries, and many of them stayed and became fused with the Irish nation. So, too, with the Normans — Hiberniis Hiberniorum — they became more Irish than the Irish themselves. The invaders conquered by force of arms, but they themselves were conquered by something stronger than arms. The Normans learned Irish, and centuries later we learned English. But in adopting it, we changed it.

We made it our own; we moulded it to suit the Irish mind. We invigorated it with the Irish idiom. We married it with poetry and made it rich, decorative, and musical. In short, we made it our own. Back in the 1600s, the Irish had their problems with land, when Cromwell invaded the country and confiscated all the land held by the Irish landlords. Later, in the nineteenth century, we had Gladstone's land act, Gladstone's tenant review board, state-aided land purchases — not a very far cry from our present Agricultural Development Corporation, our numerous state-assisted housing acts, and rent control act.

It is indeed sad that while the Irish have been successful in solving other people's problems, they have been singularly unsuccessful in solving their own. When people say it could never happen in Canada or Alberta, I shake my head in disbelief. Here in Canada we don't have the problem of Catholic versus Protestant, but we certainly have the equally serious problem of French-speaking versus English- speaking Canadians. Quebec's Bill 22 is the most politically explosive and — I hate to agree with the Prime Minister — the most politically stupid act ever enacted in this country.

I started out this session with the intention of

222 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 introducing an Anglicized version of Bill 22 as a private member's bill, not because I agreed with it, but because I wanted to show the people of this province and of Canada the absolutely asinine conno­ tations of such a bill. But when I read it in detail, I felt my presentation would only be misconstrued and misinterpreted by both the people of Alberta and of Canada as a prejudiced overview of an Anglophone. Fifty years ago, the Irish government tried to re­ introduce Gaelic and to enforce bilingualism, Gaelic and English, the same way as we are doing now.

They gave it up five or six years ago. The Irish outside Ireland have long been known as a tolerant and adventurous, though somewhat hot­ headed, people. Many of the great leaders of the world have hailed from this small, troubled island. Many of the writers and philosophers also came from there. One whom I often quote is Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wilde, who attended the same school and university as I did.

Perhaps one of his most famous sayings was: "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." Then there was Macaulay, who said: Nothing is so galling to a people, not broken in from birth, as a paternal, or in other words, a meddling government — a government which tells them what to read and say and eat and drink and wear. Let us never in Alberta get into this awful situation by overreacting, or overlegislating, or by losing our seats. There is a story about an Irishman who came to Canada a few years ago and joined the Edmonton city police force.

One day he saw a lady driving the wrong way on a one-way street. He spoke to her over the PA system, and she became so flustered that she ran right into a telephone post. He forgot to turn off the PA, and all you could hear was, where the blazes is the silly woman going now? In other words, let us not make people too nervous by being too noisy about little things. We have long been known as a race of lawmakers and lawbreakers. Many of the original pioneers in this province were a little of both when they came from that little island which fits so easily between Edmonton and Fort Macleod.

Yet it supports, and at the same time destroys, 6 million people as they fight each other — despite gun-control laws for some 50 years — over whether they wear the orange or the green. When we get to Alberta, orange and green fade rather fantastically, and very happily, into gentle shades of orange and blue. Mr. Speaker, it is difficult for native-born Albertans to realize how fortunate they are to belong to an area of the world so well blessed with food, natural resources, and natural beauty. When I return from travels elsewhere in the world, I never fail to feel and say, thank God I live in Alberta.

For here lies that broadness of understanding, that tolerance of differing views, that joy of a friendly, ambitious people who live not only for today, but for an even greater and happier tomorrow. My fellow Albertans, on this day when everyone who isn't Irish wishes he was, I am humbly thankful that I can celebrate it here as an Albertan, in Canada, and here in this Legislature. There are times when I am not very proud to be Irish. But I have never ceased to be proud of being a Canadian. I am proud to serve in a government under the leadership of our Premier.

At a party recently I quoted to him one of our press men who wrote in the Calgary Herald: "The Premier controls the cabinet, the cabinet controls the caucus." His immediate and rapid rebuttal to this was: "The press always did get everything the wrong way around." Some Irishmen tend to put their mouths in motion before they get their brains into gear, but that applies to a whole lot of members in the Legislature as well. This province needs people who will not compromise their principles because it may be politi­ cally astute to do so.

We need people who are not afraid to risk their careers for a cause, or their lives for a bit of adventure. Alberta needs more of these fearless, risk-taking people to make it develop into the sort of place I envision it to be a few years hence. And all the savings trust funds in the world will not give the next generation that joy of achievement and that love of accomplishment which this province has allowed me to enjoy. I look forward to making it even more the sort of place my children will be proud to acknowledge as their home. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. TAYLOR: Mr.

Speaker, I too would like to say a few words in the debate, even though I have an extremely sore throat. But there are some things I would like to say. I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Macleod on the very excellent words he has just spoken. I have a teeny weeny bit of Irish blood in my veins. I can tell the hon. member that I will remember his words for the rest of my life, if I live that long. I think there's something that the hon. Solicitor General should translate to Ottawa today — I don't think there would be a better day — and that is something I heard this morning.

I'm not sure it's completely authentic, but they say they have had gun control in Ireland for the last 50 years. Perhaps there's a message in that for the people of Canada who are now going to have gun control. I would like to congratulate the mover and seconder of the Speech from the Throne. In my view, the Speech from the Throne contains a number of items that are going to be of tremendous benefit to the people of the province of Alberta. I want to deal with some of those, but before doing so I want to deal with one or two constituency matters. The first one was mentioned a few moments ago by the hon.

Minister Without Portfolio in charge of native affairs. I think he gave a very excellent address, and that he's interpreting the thinking of the native people to a remarkable degree. For too many years we have been trying to give the Indian people the impression that all they had to do was ask for something and we would say yes. Government has spoiled some generations of our native people by trying to bestow everything upon them. I think it works the same way when parents give their children everything. They have no desire to work for anything because they can get it without work or effort.

For too long our educational system and our treatment by government has, either adver­ tently or inadvertently, created the impression among many of our Indian people that, what's the use of

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 223 working? We can get everything we want without working. I like the attitude of the present minister in charge of native affairs. I like it for this reason, that I think I can illustrate best by a story. Last summer the hon. minister was touring the Blackfoot Indian Reserve which lies in my constituency, and he invited me to go along. At the Old Sun School we met with the chief, a number of his councillors, the principal of the Old Sun School, and the solicitors of the Blackfoot Indians. They made a number of requests.

When I went, I wondered exactly what the attitude of the hon. minister would be. Would he say, yes, we'll give you this, that, and the other thing. I was very, very happy that he didn't do that. He rather left the impression — he was able to say no to a number of items. He made it quite clear. He gave the Indian people the reason this was not advisable and would not be good for either them or their children. But he did give the impression to me, and I believe to Chief Leo Pretty Young Man and the other councillors, that the Government of Alberta is prepared to assist the Indians to help themselves.

I think this is the message we should get to our native people. We're not going to hand you this and that on a silver platter. We expect you to work and contribute. See what you can do to make this a better country and share in the beneficial effects, and government will do everything it can to help you help yourself. I think that is the attitude the Indian people would like to see today. Some of our native people are quite content to sit back and let the government do it. But there is a rising voice among many native people who want the opportunity to help themselves.

I want to say to the Government of Alberta, here is an opportunity to help them help themselves. Don't hand them things on a silver platter. Let them realize that anything worth while is worth working for. Let's work together to make sure we give the same opportunity to our Indian and Metis boys and girls that we give to our white boys and girls, or our yellow boys and girls, or any other color. I think that is what the Indian people want — an equal opportunity without prejudice, without trying to give them something simply to win their gratitude.

They are a proud race, and they want the chance to contribute to this country too. Mr. Speaker, I'm very, very happy with the attitude of the present minister of native affairs. I hope he can continue to propagate that type of thing among our native people because it will have results. I hope it will spread into the federal administration because it is certainly needed there too. When we were on the Blackfoot Reserve we visited the Old Sun School. Even though I had been the member there for some time, I had never had a thorough inspection of the school like we had that day, and I appreciated that.

I was delighted with their typing, their English courses, their native courses, and even the course they give to some of the mounted policemen on how to speak their own language. The thing that fascinated me at that school was their auto mechanics course and their welding course. The auto mechanics course conducted by Wilbur Hayden, and the welding course by Dan Furnace were simply delightful. Those young men were so anxious and so enthusiastically working on their jobs that they didn't even want to stop to say hello. I've never seen greater attention, or greater determination to learn from instructors.

It's a tre­ mendous tribute to Mr. Hayden, Mr. Furnace, and Mr. Scribne, the principal of that school. The one thing they did say — the instructors said, not the boys, because the boys were too busy fixing old motors and cars — was that if they could only get some of the equipment that's thrown away by some of the other schools in Alberta, how delighted they would be. I think the hon. minister is taking steps that way.

I would like to see the old equipment in auto mechanics and welding from our SAIT and NAIT, from some of our composite high schools, maybe even from some of our penitentiaries where they have top-notch equipment in these lines, being sent over to the Blackfoot Reserve where they can take full advantage of it. I can assure you that it will be taken full advantage of. I'm looking forward to the celebration this summer. I'm glad we're going to celebrate the 100 years of Treaty No. 6.

While we were on the reserve that day, the hon. minister and the group with him had the privilege of standing on the very spot where the Indian chiefs signed that treaty 100 years ago this coming summer. The Indians want to have a tremen­ dous celebration, and for that celebration they're hoping Her Majesty the Queen will even appear. I hope she can, because there'll be no thought of her being shot on that reserve. She'll be almost wor­ shipped by the Indian people. There won't be the talk we have in Quebec about Her Majesty coming, which I think is disgraceful.

When the Queen of Canada comes to any part of this country, surely there shouldn't be public talk about her not being wanted, because she is the Queen of Canada. I was delighted with the attitude of the Indian people who want her to come, who are almost entreating her to come. I hope she will be able to come to that tremendous celebration.

I think it will be a highlight for starting that second hundred years for our native people, to give them something to work for, so they too will say today, as they're starting to say, not, what will the Alberta government and federal government give to me, rather, what can I give to the country, to Alberta, and to Canada to make it a better and a happier place in which to live? If we all approach our problems that way, we're going to leave a tremendous heritage for those who follow us. I'd now like to deal with another matter in the constituency.

For a number of years the government has been working toward getting people to leave the complexities of city life in Edmonton and Calgary. Planners have wondered about the advisability of trying artificially to stop people from coming to Edmonton and Calgary, about establishing their boundaries to keep people out. But the government, I think, found the right answer in trying to not force people to stay out of Calgary and Edmonton, but to entice them into our smaller centres so they go there of their own free will. They take their artistic ability, their trade ability, their working ability to the smaller towns.

This is now working to a tremendous degree, Mr. Speaker, so much so that a few years ago the towns in my

224 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 constituency were wondering if they were going to survive. Now what a change of attitude. With the researcher in my office, I sat down with the mayor and council of the town of Strathmore. That town isn't talking about dying. That town is talking about how it's going to be able to meet the problems of increased population, how it's going to be able to handle the problems it now must face; not of death, but of living, living abundantly.

If the present government has made any mistake in regard to this program, it's certainly not been one of enticing people into our smaller communities. Now I think we've come to the second phase of that program. I'd like the government to take a second look at how we are now going to help the towns look after the population coming into their areas. How are we going to look after them? Where are we going to get the land for lots? At the meeting at Three Hills, called by the M.D. of Knee Hill a few weeks ago, the mayors of town after town in the constituency of the hon. Dr.

Warrack, and the Drumheller constituency, stood up and said, we've run out of lots. We can't meet the demand. We need more land, we need more subdivisions, we need faster service from the planning commissions, and we need areas we can give title to, because people want to live in our town. You know, this is a splendid thing. This is going to mean — it's almost impossible to say what it will mean for the buoyancy of the economy of this province, because any province is as strong as its weakest link.

When our towns and our villages were thinking about dying, that had the same effect on the overall buoyancy of the province of Alberta. Now when they're thinking about living, about meeting the problems of life, not of death, I think they need some help in that regard. I would hope that the new Planning Act and the policies of the government will enable our towns to meet that growing need for land, for lots, and for servicing that land and [those] houses. The town of Gleichen recently put up a number of lots for sale. They went almost like the proverbial hot cakes.

Far more people wanted those lots than there were lots to be had. Now they have another subdivi­ sion of 110 coming up very shortly, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if again the bid is far greater than a hundred applicants waiting there. The towns need help to meet this growing demand of living for the people who are now going to our towns and villages. I think this is excellent. I'm hoping the government will be able to assist our towns even more than they are today.

That is considerable, but even more than they're doing today to meet the needs of increasing water and sewer and servicing to these various places. That is a very important item. There are one or two things in the constituency I'd like to mention. I'm going to cut them short, because I want to deal with two or three larger items. One is telephones. For a number of years we've been trying to get the extended flat rate calling for a number of places in the constituency of Drumheller. The people of Morrin have a very thriving little town, but their main marketing centre is Drumheller.

To have to phone long-distance every time they picked up the phone to get something for their tractor or their combine was getting a little nauseating. The same with East Coulee, and the same with Rosebud. This last year the hon. Minister of Utilities and Telephones worked out a plan under which we could have that flat rate calling, without a lot of flaring or blowing of bugles, but with a chance for anybody who objected to have their say.

It was well advertised, and the AGT people came to hear what some people thought would be a massive protest, because the government was going to provide this extra service at a very, very reasonable cost to the people of Drum­ heller, Morrin, Rosebud, and East Coulee. Do you know how many people came? The tele­ phone people sat there for eight hours. I was there for four or five, and the minister's executive secretary was there for four or five. Not one person came to protest, not one person. Several came to congratu­ late, and several came down over other problems.

The people appreciate the telephone service they can now get from extended flat rate calling. When I think of the number of years we fought to have this type of thing, now it's a reality in those areas. The only complaint I've received at my presessional meetings throughout the whole constituency was from, I should say, two places. One was from Michichi, which is connected with the Delia exchange, and they now want to be in the Drumheller exchange. They want the same privilege Morrin is getting.

In Strathmore, where the vote was carried some months ago — I think it was 81 per cent in favor of this — two elderly people felt they never wanted to call Calgary, so they didn't think they should pay the increased charge. When we explained to them how you couldn't have two flat rates and the tremendous benefit this is to the people of the Strathmore area, even they realized it was a step in the right direction. During this last year, too, we were able to turn the water on in the hamlet of Nacmine in the month of December.

I don't know how many years I've stood in this House and told about the need for water and sewers in hamlets like Newcastle, Midlandvale, and Nacmine, where there are outdoor toilets that occupied every spare space time and time again. There are sand point wells. Even the health officer wondered why there hasn't been an epidemic in the valley. In Newcastle, Midlandvale, North Drumheller, Bankview, and now in Nacmine, that danger has gone. We now have a good water and sewage system. Now we're working on the sewage system for Rosedale and perhaps eventually for East Coulee and Wayne.

The thing is moving ahead rapidly. I want to say thank you to the government for your co-operation for providing this opportunity for the people to provide this service for themselves. Without government assistance from the hon. Minis­ ter of the Environment and the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs on that water and sewage program, the people could never in a month of Sundays have hoped to be able to have that service today. With the assistance given, we helped those people help themselves, which I think is an excellent and sound policy.

Right now, the Minister of Utilities and Telephones has given the people of Wayne, Cambria and part of Rosedale an opportunity to have natural gas. A public meeting was held in Wayne to discuss the whole program. Nothing but tributes were paid, because under the co-operative system of the branch, the poorest person in that constituency — and there are

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 225 some poor people — is able to get gas into his place of residence because of the assistance and spreading it out over a period of months. So within a very few months, those people are going to enjoy the benefits of natural gas. As one of them said at the meeting, he never thought he would see it in his lifetime. Mr. Speaker, as a member of the Legislature, I think it is my duty to speak here on behalf of the people who sent me. They want me to say they appreciate this program and the opportunity to get natural gas, water, and sewer. Sometimes it doesn't come as fast as we want.

But we have certainly made tremendous advances in the last few years. I want to commend the government for that. Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with one or two other items. I forgot to look at the clock when I started to talk, so I suppose you'll send me the regular note. I'm going to try to cover the things I want to cover before I sit down. I've been a little amazed at some of the questioning in the House, particularly by the leader of the Social Credit party. I'm beginning to wonder — he's sitting on the left of the socialist for a very good reason. He seems to be out-socializing the NDP.

I'm wondering how the people of that party can reconcile that from a free-enterprise party. I was amazed the other day when the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury hounded the Minister of Social Services and Community Health for daring to try to do away with some bureaucracy and give free enterprise a chance to see what it could do. There is some cry that the free- enterprise system could save the Government of Alberta $1 million and reduce the staff.

The hon. leader of the Social Credit party seemed to be greatly agitated because we were going to reduce bureaucracy in the province, because were going to take some civil servants off the job, reduce our payroll, and save money for the taxpayers of Alberta by turning it over to free enterprise. I thought that was what that party stood for, for a number of years. That's what it stood for when I was a member of it — at least till the last few years that I was a member of it. They're gradually beginning to change their platform. Frankly, I don't know what they stand for now.

Half the time they're talking about socialism and half the time they're talking about free enterprise. I don't know where the present leader is taking the party. A great number of the members of the party don't know either. I want to say I was concerned when the man talked about saving $1 million, when the New Democratic member, who I expected to say something like this — doctrinaire preoccupation with free enterprise, regar­ dless of the effect on people. That's complete misre- presentation, regardless of the effect on people.

I've heard the minister say time and time again that the first consideration was the patients in that home. Why are we trying to kid the troops outside that we're not going to look after them? The first concern was that they would have the same quality of care, that their laundry would be just as clean, that their food would be just as good. That was made abundantly clear. The minister also went on to say the staff would be looked after. Nobody is suddenly going to be kicked out.

Why are the hon. members trying to kid the people outside that there's going to be a reduction in services because some money is being saved? I don't know what we can gain from that. I would think people who believed in free enterprise would say hurray or hallelujah. Here's a chance for free enterprise to show what it can do. If it can can't meet the challenge of bureaucracy, too bad. Then let's throw it out. But let's give it a chance, because three-quarters of the time, when we say free enter­ prise has failed, we haven't given it a chance.

We shackle it with so many socialistic policies that free enterprise doesn't get a chance to actually work. Here's a case where we talk about some reduction in staff and some saving of dollars. Mr. Speaker, I'm not concerned if we save a million dollars. A million dollars sounds like a lot of money. But I am very, very happy that something will be saved, that by reducing our payroll we're working towards reduction of the inflationary trends in this country, of continually adding people to the payroll. Here we have the very reverse.

People are being taken off the payroll, the payroll is being reduced, the taxpayers' money is being saved. The hon. members to my left are apparently horrified about this, so much so that they take time and time and time to talk about it, to hound the minister into changing her mind. I don't know what they're trying to do. Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the minister and the government for giving free enterprise a chance to show what it can do. If it saves a million dollars, well and good. If it only saves a thousand dollars, well and good.

We are working towards the principles in which we believe, in which I think the people of Alberta believe: the principle of free enterprise, where they have to compete with somebody else and do it at a lower price. That's what free enterprise is, competition. Mr. Speaker, I'm happy with the contract the hon. minister has mentioned. I'm going to watch it with care too. But I'm not going to be criticizing it and hounding the minister for entering into it with a possibility of saving the people of Alberta one million dollars.

Again I say: whether it's a million or only a thousand, I still think it's an excellent program. I hope it's just the start of a number of other programs that will similarly reduce the staff, bureaucracy, and give free-enterprise principles a chance to work. Some of our people have mentioned that the government, in going into PWA, was throwing away the principles of free enterprise. I don't agree with that for one minute. PWA is just as much a free enterprise today as it was before the government took it over. That part hasn't changed one iota.

I challenge any hon. member to show where there's one bit of difference between the competition facing PWA today and what there was before the govern­ ment bought a majority of the shares. They can't do it. The competition is still there. It's just as competi­ tive today as it was before it was taken over. Those who cry, free enterprise, the government has thrown free enterprise out the window, are talking through their hats. They're trying to kid the troops. I think the people are going to catch on to that pretty fast.

PWA had quite a gigantic business in the province of Alberta for a number of years before the govern­ ment took it over, and perhaps even more so since the government has taken it over. When I was on the other side of the House, I secured permission from the cabinet to try to get PWA to bring more of their services to the province of Alberta. I contacted Mr. Watson. I think one small maintenance crew came

226 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 over to the province of Alberta out of all the crews working for PWA. And even though the payroll in Alberta was far greater than in British Columbia, still they wanted to stay in British Columbia. I have every respect for Mr. Watson, the former head of PWA, but he was B.C. oriented — B.C. oriented right from head to foot. If we had left it up to him, we would never have that line moved into Alberta.

From the time the government took over PWA, I think almost every member on this side of the House in the present opposition has asked the government, when are we going to move some of the PWA staff into the province of Alberta? I might be mistaken — maybe not everyone, but just about everyone, includ­ ing the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, has asked when are we going to do it. When the government does it, again the opposition to my left goes up in arms about it. They're concerned, they're worried. I really don't know what they want. They ask, when are we going to do it?

Then when it's done, they get all excited about it and wonder why it's being done. Consistency, thou art a jewel! In this case, there has certainly been no consistency on the part of the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the New Democratic Party. Both have asked that this be done, and then when it's done, what is it they say? You know, the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview said — and this was about 14 or 15 months after the thing was first raised, when we were asking the government when we were going to move some of this staff into Alberta. What did he say in his speech?

I quote: "All of a sudden we now find we have to make the move." All of a sudden, 15 months later. Does the hon. member, when he's making requests to the government, want them to bring it into effect two years, four years, six years from now? That's what it seems, because 14 months after they do it he says, all of a sudden they have to make the move. Well, it wasn't all of a sudden. I realize this thing would take some planning and some doing. Even when I asked PWA to do it then, I wasn't expecting it to be done suddenly.

But I was expecting some commitment that we would get a fair share of that business for the province of Alberta. The hon. Leader of the Opposition said again, and I quote: "What's $5 million to move it?". What's $5 million to move it? Well, Mr. Speaker, the $5 million is again a misnomer. Who said it's going to cost $5 million to move it? I think that's a ridiculous thing. Again, when we tell the people of Alberta that they're moving the whole thing, they're going to spoil the air line — nobody I ever heard in this House or the directors of PWA said this was going to happen all of a sudden.

It's going to be done gradually and consistently, making the best use of our staff, and not moving it all out of B.C. either. Surely to goodness the people of Alberta, who own the air line, have every right to expect their government to gradually move a major portion of that air line's administration into the province of Alberta. I support the move, Mr. Speaker, and I think the people of this province do, too. Now, I'd like to say a word or two about Fort Saskatchewan. The hon. Solicitor General was talk­ ing about wall-to-wall carpeting, and nail varnish, powder, and paint for the women prisoners, and so on.

I have no objections to the nail polish, or nail varnish as he called it, powder, and paint for the women prisoners, but I have a lot of objections to putting wall-to-wall carpeting in all the prison cells of this province. I don't think that is sound. I don't have wall-to-wall carpeting in my own home in many rooms. Hundreds of people in Alberta don't have wall-to-wall carpeting. Let's make sure they have good light and good toilet facilities, but let's not pamper the prisoners. We've been pampering the thugs in this country too long. MR.

SPEAKER: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member, but is he able to conclude shortly? I'm concerned about establishing precedents, especially in fairness to those members who limit themselves to the usual time. MR. TAYLOR: I'm sorry. If my time is up, I'll stop right there. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, [inaudible] a few minutes longer to finish. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. member have leave to continue? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that very much, but I think I'll stop right there. [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I also have the flu, and I have a cold.

I hope I can last as well as the hon. Member for Drumheller. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to compliment the government on its free-enterprise stance. It is involved in Syncrude, it is involved in the Suffield Block, it has bought PWA, it's involved in the Alberta Energy Company, and it has either 49 or 51 per cent of the action in the chemical plant in Two Hills. Mr. Speaker, that is free-enterprise government. Mr. Speaker, before I start my speech on the throne debate, I'd like to tell you that I received a most interesting phone call from a person from the Edmonton Journal, who was doing a little survey.

The question was, "Dr. Buck, how come you're not going to the Conservative convention in Ottawa?" I was taken aback for a second. I said, "What was that?" She said, "Well, we want to know why you're not going to the leadership convention in Ottawa." I said, "Well number one, I'm a Social Crediter; and number two, I don't adhere to any of the red Tory philosophy of the Alberta MLAs." So I said, "I don't think they would appreciate me going down there." Well, she apologized humbly, and I told her she should get her facts straight before she did the survey.

She just apologized and said she had this list to phone and I happened to be on it. DR. HORNER: She should survey the guy who wrote it. MR. HYNDMAN: [Inaudible] the Social Credit convention?

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 227 DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, in replying to the throne debate, I would like to compliment the mover and seconder for their contributions. I'm sure they wouldn't expect me to agree with much of it, but there are many areas they touched on that I certainly do uphold, and I certainly like to see them taking their stances. I'm pleased to see the hon. Member for Calgary Bow has his service for the ultra- conservatives already down there with their colored telephones, all these essentials to the well-being of the people of Alberta. MR. NOTLEY: At the time of restraint. DR.

BUCK: The time of restraint. Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes I have, I would like to concentrate on two or three areas. I would like to start out where the hon. Member for Drumheller left off, and that is the Fort Saskatchewan Correc­ tional Institute. Mr. Speaker, the problems seem to have risen and reached a peak within the last four-year period. There seems to be more than a coincidence to that, seeing we've been talking about coincidences the last while. I brought up the coincidence that came to my attention yesterday. I'm sorry to see that the hon.

Minister of Energy and Natural Resources isn't here, because I was always wondering what the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources was doing those four years he was Minister of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs and drawing that $35,000 a year. He was studying the rule book, because now he's suddenly an instant expert on the rules of the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, speaking on that, I would like to inform the hon.

Minister of Energy and Natural Resources that, regardless of the size of the majority of the government, I will stand in my place and express the opinions the people of this province have expressed to me. In no way will I be intimidated or in no way will I be brow-beaten [from expressing] those opinions in this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, we have a responsibility, and we have a privilege granted to us. But at the same time, there are areas that touch us [on which] we must express opinions. We can't go and get documentation that these opinions are exactly to the letter of the law.

There's an old saying in politics that if there's a little bit of smoke, there's usually an awful lot of fire. We who are in politics practise this game. We express opinions, and that's what we're here for, that's what we have immunity for. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, we would be out playing detective most of the time, to find out if exactly everything that's been told to us by constituents or concerned Albertans is exactly fitting the letter of the law. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to reiterate that just absolutely no member of the Executive Council, no member of government, or no one, is going to prevent me from saying what I feel and what I think is right. MR. TRYNCHY: Say it outside the House. DR. BUCK: I'd like to just hear the hon. member, Mr. Trynchy, say anything inside the House, so his con­ stituents would know they are being well represented. MR. NOTLEY: They've given up. [Interjections] DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. members keep insisting, there are a few things I'll fill them in on, but I think I'll save that for later debates. Mr.

Speaker, getting back to the Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Institute, we, the people of that community, have been proud to have that industry in our midst. Fort Saskatchewan for many years had a population of about 900 people. It was an agricultural society; it depended on an agricultural economy. We needed that industry and were glad to have it. But at one time the correctional officers, known at that time as guards, had some rights, and the prisoners were in there for a reason, to be incarcerated because they had done some wrong.

But now we've gone the full cycle: the prisoners have fewer rights than the guards. And in this quest for so-called liberalism . . . [interjections] Okay, let's go through that again, Mr. Speaker. At one time, guards had some privileges and rights. The prisoners were incarcerated because they had done some wrongs. Now it seems that the prisoners have more rights than the correctional staff. AN HON. MEMBER: That's better. DR. BUCK: Thank you, gentlemen, for allowing me to correct that.

So now what has happened is that in our attempt to become so liberal, a morale problem has developed because of that instance, and secondly, because of direction from the top, or I should say the lack of direction from the top. I'm very, very disappointed in the new Solicitor General. At least the former Solicitor General got up and gave us a hearts and flowers speech about what she was going to do in Fort Saskatchewan. Before she could even get this program under way, she was moved into a new ministry. But the minister who is presently in charge, a man who could and should be firm, has not done that.

He has not given direction to the people under him. He has not given direction to the correctional staff in Fort Saskatchewan. This is basically the problem. We have some lame duck excuses about over­ crowding as the problem. I would like to read into the record, Mr. Speaker, what that institution can hold. "A" block can hold 97 people, "B" block can hold 94 people, the upper dorm 96, the new dorm 96, segregated area 8, for a total of 391. The forestry camp accommodation can hold about 60 prisoners, and the restructured female

section 46, so the total overall capacity is about 497. So really, the crowding is just not as bad as some people are led to believe. It is a problem, but that is not the basic problem. Then, what happened to Bowden? Why did we sell it before we had some other place to put juvenile offenders? What a lack of foresight, Mr. Speaker. Surely a government that seems to think it has all the other answers was derelict in its responsibility and duty to sell Bowden before it had some other place to put young offenders. The real estate alone was worth what they got from the federal government. I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, why the hurry to sell Bowden when there was no alternative site to put

228 ALBERTA HANSARD March 17, 1976 young offenders. The minister keeps telling us that because we're going to upgrade the facilities, it's going to solve our problem. Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General has received a letter from the mayor of the town of Fort Saskatchewan. This information has been made public in our local newspaper. This is the first time the town of Fort Saskatchewan has been genuinely concerned about the breakouts from Fort Saskatche­ wan. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time a hostage has been taken in the manner he was and drove the escaped prisoners into Fort Saskatchewan. Mr.

Speaker, the gist of the letter is basically this. If you can't shape up, ship out. Now that's coming from the mayor of the town who appreciates that we have that industry there, people are working there, and there is a large payroll there. But the people in the area and the townspeople would like some protection, some guarantee that we're not going to have this coming and going as you please. Maybe some of you follow the cartoons in the papers. I think there's a message there.

It shows — at least in our local newspaper — a picture of a picket fence and somebody jumping over it, saying, where are we going this weekend? It is getting almost that bad. When the hon. member on the government side got up and asked the minister the planted question about how many people have actually escaped from the place, they watered it down from 124 to some 84. Mr. Speaker, that just doesn't cut enough ice with the people I represent. There are other areas that concern me. What has happened to the rehabilitation programs promised to us by the former Solicitor General?

All we have out there now, basically, is a beauty shop and a car body repair shop. The hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway expressed some concerns. Are the prisoners entitled to wall-to-wall carpeting, are they entitled to hanging drapes? We're taking out metal doors and putting in wooden doors. The hon. Solicitor General says, we must provide an atmos­ phere conducive to the well-being of the prisoner, or words to that effect; in other words, don't traumatise the boy. Well, Mr. Speaker, we know we have to treat people humanely and decently, but let's not let the pendulum swing too far.

The area of most concern to me is what we're doing, not to the prisoner, but to the staff members who work in that institution. Their morale is at an all-time low. Their pay is very, very poor. Last year the members of that staff received retroactive pay, but up to a month ago some of those people had not received their retroactive pay. Now that's not perfor­ mance, government members, that is not performance. It took the former Solicitor General 18 months to get a new director of the institution at Fort Saskat­ chewan — 18 months, because the hon. minister wanted the best man she could find.

That was very, very commendable. But then when this man received a promotion, we brought a new one in overnight, and the members of that institution greeted him with a riot. It's very interesting. I sincerely hope the new warden can get things straightened out there. But I don't think he's going to get it straightened out, Mr. Speaker, until we have a judicial inquiry about what's going on in Fort Saskatchewan so we can put people on the stand and ask them, under oath, what they think is wrong with Fort Saskatchewan.

While we have these little whitewash jobs where we ask somebody from the department come in and do an assessment upon ourselves, we will never get any answers, Mr. Speaker. So I say to the members of the Assembly and the hon. Solicitor General, we want a judicial inquiry. Never mind these mickey mouse committees that will whitewash the issue. Mr. Speaker, I would also advise the committee, consisting of MLAs and other lay people who advise the minister, to tour Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Institute, because the natives out there, Mr. Minister, are becoming restless.

I'm glad to see one complaint was rectified, Mr. Speaker. Our late, late movies are being cut out. You know why, Mr. Speaker? Because there wasn't sufficient staff at that time of night to supervise the late, late movies. Many of those people out there are working double shifts, and time and a half shifts, because there isn't sufficient help. I get tired of hearing the Solicitor General and the former Solicitor General tell us that this is not a problem, because getting help out there is one of the major problems. So, Mr. Speaker, I expect the hon. minister to take some steps.

I respect his abilities and his potential abilities, because I know he's a firm man. If he gets hold of this thing, I think he can do something, Mr. Speaker. Up to this point in time, he hasn't proven to me that he wants to. But I have more respect than that, and I think he will. I give him the benefit of that doubt. I think he'll do it, but I want him to get moving right now, Mr. Speaker. An area that concerned me greatly in the Speech from the Throne was the way the government is treading water on the foreign land ownership ques­ tion. Mr.

Speaker, I don't know where the govern­ ment has been in the last two and a half to three years, if they think there is no problem with foreign land ownership. The people out there in civvy street think it's a problem. They will tell you, if the government members will take the time to listen, that the citizenry thinks it's a problem. There is an area within 25 miles of this city right now, a large block of land that an Alberta citizen has offered $310,000 to buy. The people who were going to sell that land are holding out.

They want to back out of the deal because they've had an offer by a foreign buyer of $125,000 above that. What is the government doing? It's sleeping. It's slumbering along on this issue. Or [take] the 3,000 acres of prime agricultural land just outside Fort Saskatchewan [sold] to foreign interests. I challenge the hon. members to go out there to look at those 3,000 acres of land. Every tree has been knocked down. Every little low spot where a mallard could be raised has been filled in. All the old fences are taken down. It is being farmed right up to the fence line, right up to the ditch line.

That's the legacy we're leaving our people? Mr. Speaker, it is a problem. The people tell us it's a problem. We on this side of the House, the five opposition members, think it's a problem. Mr. Speaker, it behooves the government to move. It behooves the government to have a look, to open its

March 17, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 229 eyes, and do something about it. We on this side, the Member for Spirit River-Fairview and the official opposition members, have tried to spur the govern­ ment to do something, but with no results. But I challenge the members to ask their constituents what they think, then bring it back to caucus — if they ever discuss anything in caucus with the cabinet — and bring in some recommendations and legislation now. Mr. Speaker, an area that concerns me personally, and an area that concerns us as an official opposition, is housing.

We've heard so much about the Premier being so busy formerly with oil matters that he's now going to turn his attention to social things. AN HON. MEMBER: That's the trouble with housing. DR. BUCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, we haven't seen any change in that direction. To me, to the young people of Alberta right now, the young marrieds trying to raise a family, housing is their number one concern. With the escalating costs of land and building, there is just really no way at all that a young man, if he's the sole breadwinner, can own a house. He cannot own his own house.

In this most affluent of all provinces in Canada, this young couple cannot own their own home. To me, Mr. Speaker, that says the government is not looking after the best interests of its citizens. With the heritage trust fund we're going to be discussing, Mr. Speaker, surely we'