: . . .. . . "'· .~ . PRELiniNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT . .. HOUSE OF ASSEr-iBLY F()R THE-PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Wednesday, May 11, 1977 v o L 2 , r1 o . 7 3 I

May 11, 1977 Tape 2537 (Afternoon) PK - 1 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, plea~e! The hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a very brief and a very pleasant duty to perform. . I have with me a Canada Summer Games pin which is designed for the St. John's Lion's Club to commemorate the occasion of the Summer Games coming here to St. John's this . A1,1gust, .. T1le cl:n:I> ~of :whicil I am a .. member .. ,a,s .is-:; the member for .. ... . · ·.. . . . . .. . . . . . . . Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), the club decided last week to have a pin presented to each member· of the House, and I have sufficient pins here, Wfth the oermission the House I would like to ask the pages to distribute them in a moment.

Just let me say ," ~ne, it is an attractive pin and it will provide quite a nice souvenir for members of the House, a souvenir of the Summer Games, . s~condly, it is most appropriate that we have this presentation today because today marks the beginning of the Annual Spring Fair of the Lion's Club at the Stadium, its big fund raising for its various humanitarian endeavours, and a Fair which I would urge all members to patronize at their convenience. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a very pleasant duty today to bring a matter before the House, and, I believe, Sir, this is the appropriate time to do it. Mr. Speaker, the matter to which I refer, which I consider is good news for a change in amongst all the bad news that we have been getting, is that CJON and twG newsmen, Carl Lake and Jim Furlong, won - CJON was given the al¥ard, but these two gentlemen were the newsmen who did the documentary that brought the award to Newfoundland for the first time, called the Dan MacArthur Award, and it is for an out~tanding documentary,for excellence actually in the news documentary.

It is an award that is made in the Atlantic Provinces; competition is very fierce and very keen,I understand, between the four Atlantic Provinces. And,as I say,it is the first 7U69 .. .. ~ ~·-~. !• •

... . · May 11, 1977 Tape 2537 (Afternoon) Mr. Ne~: time that this award has come to Newfoundland; The host;of the programme, the show,_was Bob Lewis, and the producer was Dave Lawrence, and the two newsmen were·carl Lake and Jim Furlong, and the documentary involved the closing of the oil refinery at . ... .:.. .. .... ~ . ; ~·:, ... ~: . • '' 'J..· ~·-~ .,.·.- . ·. ,. : i~ :'"" .~- .- ··· • :· · .. ..... _ .... . - ·. :· · . .· 7070 PK - 2 .. . ..

~..rav 11,19 77 Tape 2538 (Afternoon) AH-1 MR. NEARY: Come by Chance. I do not knmv if han. members Hill remember the documentary but it had to be put together , as hon gentlemen llill realize, in a short time, the research had to be done very care£ully,and they produced the programme, Sir, that brought an a~.rard to Newfoundland. And 1 want to congratulate both CJON, the t~.;ro newsmen, Carl Lake and Jim Furl<?ng, and all the oth~r~ who were involved in hostin~ and producing and filming the documentary. And I would like to move, Mr.

Speaker, seconded by the hon.the Premier,that a letter of congratulations be sent out to C,J()N and . especi .ally to. the two .newsmen and those who produced -"'*'· ·· . <, · : · : · •• -~ •• =':···.-· , . .. · . . _.,. . ::~_ .... ..... ~- · : : :;.:· -: · .. • .· ~ •::· ::·-· .·. : ... · .. ~ . ·.· .... "-• · ... . : . the documentary from this House. So it gives me great pleasure, Sir, to make that motion seconded by the hon.t~e Premier. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon Premier. PREMIER. MOORES : Hr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I second the motion speaking from the government side.

It is ah.;rays good when you see excellence achieved by any members of our society, and in the field of the media generallv there is ah1ays a great deal of competition, thereis always a great deal of creativity and all the rest that goes into m~ing up documentaries and putting together interesting shows. I think for these two people particularly,and plus the support staff 1;.;rhich is always necessary to make it ~vork, the government has great pleasure and the government side has great pleasure in congratulating them on a job well done. SOME RON HEHBERS : Hear, hear! }ffi.

SPEAKER: Hon.Leader of the Opposition. :1-ffi.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we H~uld like to be.. associated with the motion, I think it is one in which all members of the House would agree and we certainly would like to add our voice.- I think the programme was an exceilent one. I recall it vividly • It is too : bad in a way there has not been a similar pro~ramme done bv one

May 11,1977 Tane 2538 (Afternoon) AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: of the televisiqn net~orks on the Linerboard situation; oerhaps there ~o1ill be shortly. But the programme. was I thought a firs-: class example of journalism using the television medium in a creative and res1)onsible way. ·It vras done very rapidly, it Has done very comprehensively,and altogether I think it richly deserved the a~vard.

I think it should be· noted too - not to take away in the feast from the achievement of CJON television and the award \vhich they have won-that another ne\vS organization in Newfoundland has won a number · ·· of. these Dan . :.B~ · MaeArthur awards .. I do not . k.nm-1 who Mr. ~facArthur . \>las but there are a number of a\•T<".rcls name.-1 after him,and I believe the comnetition to CJON, · at least the radio competition, the VOCH stations have won a number of these aw·ards for various types of programmes and for news reporting.

And I think, Sir, that they should be congratulated - not in the motion, the motion should recognize the achievement of CJON and the a\·mrd that is given to them this year. But I think the House should recognize at the same time that Newfoundland news merlia,in the plural,have achieved this success against very stiff competition. I think that is something of which the House ought to be proud and of which every citizen of this Province ought to be proud. MR. SPEAKER: 'MR. MOORES: PRESENTING PETITinNS Hon.member for Carbonear. I would like to present a petition, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of forty-three families of the town of Victoria. The prayer of the petition is presented in letter form and subsequently only two-thirds of the letter is applicable to the petition and it says, "Dear Mr. Hoores: No doubt you are aware of our r,rater and se~o1er problems. On behalf· of myself and the following names I am presenting a petition requesting immediate action for the installation of a \·later and se\ver main for this area. The area in question is Pennys Hill, Victoria area, It is the most densely populated area of the community.

It would take approximately 3000 feet of water and sewer 7072

May 11,1977 Tape 2538 (Afternoon) AH-3 MR . ?·iOORES: main to service this area from the present water.and sewer svstem on the main highway. At the present time our water is not fit for human consumption and we would like immediate action from the Department of Municipal Affairs Y Hr. Speaker, it is true that the water in this particular ·area is not fit· for hum:a.n consumption.!n the ·last seven weeks ·it has been condenmed four weeks in a row by the local Department of Health.

I understand now that the Department of Municipal activities in the Province ~1ill be this year and I am hoping~ in fact I am urging the minister to take appropriate action because this specific area and this specific. community is in very urgent need of consumable ~-rater. Not just v7ater,but consumable water. / ' 7073

. . . . . .. · .. : May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2539 EC - 1 MR. R. MOORES : I ·pass : tne petition along to the appropriate department and I support it fully. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Unless somebody wants to speak on that petition, Mr. Speaker, I have another petition to present. MR. SPEAKER: No hon. member has risen. · '~· · ... - - - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great - I might say for the benefit of the hon. gentleman I concur and support the prayer of the petition.

But I have a petition of my own, . ·~.: · ~·· · ·:.:·~:· ... :. ~ -:·->- .. : .. ~'·:·.:·:~:-,.:· :: : -~ .. -... ~·: ;· - ; ~-· :·:··-.... <-=-' :._:;_.)·~- · ·::·::- : ·: .. /.~, :: ........ :: : .. ;, ·: ·-. .- ...... - . !· .. Sir, to present on behalf of 440 voters, 440 citizens in the district of Green Bay. And the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is as follows: MR. MORGAN: From Green Bay? MR.

NEARY: That is right. ''We')the undersigned residents in the district of Green Bay and voters over the age of eighteen years,hereby petition the provincial House of Assembly to take whatever measures within its power to stop any move to increase electricity rates in this Province." Mr. Speaker, it is rather an unusual petition. It comes in two forms, the formal petition itself and then there is a coupon that was published in a newspaper called The Green Bay News. It says, 'Please sign your name in return to the address below not later than April 30, 1977.' AN RON. MEMBER: Just what is it? MR. NEARY: Pardon?

It is a petition published in The Green Bay News. MR. DOODY: By · the paper? MR. NEARY: No, the people I think. There must be a group of concerned citizens th~re. I think it was a man who called me and asked me to present it in the House. But there is the petition that appeared in The Green Bay News, Sir, the same wording as is on the formal petition - 440 total people over the age of eighteen years, 440 voters in the district of Green Bay who are very concerned about their survival, very concerned about the future because of the increases, the heavy increases, the huge 7074 ... ~ ....

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2539 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: increases in electricity rates in this Province. Mr. Speaker, the people are very concerned about the fact that this House is likely to shrug off its responsibility on some regulatory body and that the House, the elected representatives of the people, will not fa~e up to the fact that the real power behind blocking these increases rests in this House and not in the hands of a regulatory body.

And the people hope that the regulatory bodies will not just be used to get . the government or the members of the House, ··.:~ .... . ~· ,- ;·: . .' ...... ~-. :: · .. : :' ~>:· · .. _ .. _. · ·:::;~ ··: ··._:·.· . . ·:: .· ...... · .... 'l :: . :. -:-:-· .' :·:.: ··· . ... .... ·. : .. · .... ·.: .. :' . . . . . '. . the elected representatives of the people, off the hook,to get the heat off the elected represen~atives of the people of this Province. It is a matter, Sir, which is concerning every citizen of this Province at the present time.

And now today, Sir, we hear news that the people in this Province are going to be hit with an eight cent to ten cent increase in gasoline and a six or seven cent increase in heating fuel. AN RON. MEMBER: No, they are not •. MR. NEARY: Further justification, Sir, for people being discouraged and disgruntled and w9ndering where it is all going to end. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, but that increase in gasoline and heating fuel,so we are told by the media,is supported by the Minister of Energy from this Province. And if the price of fuel goes up, the price of gasoline goes up again, Sir .- diesel fuel. So,Mr.

Speaker, I would like to hear what members on either side of this House have to say about this petition. This is typical. The feeling of these people, Sir, is typical - MR. NOLAN: Read it again. MR. NEARY: - of the feelings of people all over this Province at the present time. And it is our duty, Sir. We should not be so quick to pawn off the responsibility for coping with this problem, to pawn it off on a regulatory body like the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities who merely act as a rubber stamp for the government.

The prayer of the petition, Sir, goes on the coupon that appeared in The Green Bay News and the formal petition, just to refresh members memories: "We, the undersigned residents in the district of Green Bay and voters over the age of eighteen years,hereby petition the 7075 ~. . .. ··~· ·~ ..

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2539 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: provincial House of Assembly to take ·whatever measures within its , power to stop any more increases in electricity rates in-this Province." Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to present the petition on behalf of these voters in Green Bay and lay it u~on the table of the House and refer it to the depa~tment to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. . ~ •' ... -I " .. •.. • t . • ". ·- ...... . .. .. ·. ~- 7076 . .. .. · ... ·: .. , ..... . ..

May 11, 1977 Tape 2540 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: M~. ~.,~l'!lr• ... , fi!"!'!t ,..f a~1 Mit~ your permission, the permission of the House,I would like very much to welcome back our hon. friend, the hononourable and learned doctor (Dr. T. Farrell) who is back with us once again - SOME RON. MEMBERS:. Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: And .he is keeping an eye on us. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR • . NOLAN: . - and I am pleased to see that he is keeping an .· . : •,.: . · ... :: .. : -~ ~· . '· . .. . . -.- ~· : ·. •.· . ' .. ::-· •. 0 a • o • .-, ,• •• "'' :. .. :.=;o eye on us, b~t we wish him well.

Obviously he has had a difficult time, and we are all delighted,on all sides, obviously 1 to nave him back. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: So in rising then, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I rise obviously to support the petition. There is something coming to the .fore in this Province, not only in this Province, but in other areas as ~Yell, and even in Canada, and that is that those who are elected to office are no longer governing the country or the jurisdiction. For example, - MR. ROBERTS: Just what the printed estimates say. MR.

NOLAN: - the petition as supplied by, tabled by our friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) indicates quite clearly the concern of the people of Green Bay district, And you see, Mr. Speaker, it is not just the increases in electricity rates -.and the increases in heat and so on; the fact is that every single day residents of this Province when they turn on their, radios or read the news find that this is gone up, and I am talking about necessities no~, housing, clothing, schooling, transportation, and so on, the bare and essential items that are needed and required to live, not luxuries.

And so when the Light and Power or the Labrador Power Commission bring in additional further massive increases, as they have proposed, it puts an inexorable burden on the people of this Province that they are no longer capable of bearing. Now I do not think there is anyone perhaps in the House perhaps that should know better 7077

May 11, 1977 Tape 2540 ( ."-fternoon) PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: perhaps than the Minister of Social Services, because you cannot help but wonder, Mr. Speaker, how people who are forced by circumstances to accept social services, how they· can manage today to pay the electricity rates and all the other. things that. they need to keep body and soul together.

But the fact is what has happened in this House in the past, and I fear will continue to happen in the future,is when we bring an item in - and there have been hundreds and thousands of ··. ' .: petftions ··abaut >"this'"very ··necessaey it~m..:.. :we·hav~· responses such as, Well it is the Power Commission or it is this one, it is that one. Everything that seems to come up, it is someone other than us.

We are no longer prepared to take ou~ responsibilities, the reason being that we have brought in legislation of one form or another over the years that has authorized groups, agencies, boards and so on, we have given them all of the power and all of the authority; we put too much into the hands of the bureaucrats, and we have left people in a very, very difficult position, and it is for this reason, I submit, .. with respect, Mr. Speaker, that it is for this reason that people no longer look to the House of Assembly for the type of representation that they have come to expect. And therefore we have failed.

So I certainly support the prayer of the petition from the people of Green Bay, and it is interesting too because, I believe, it originates in the district of the - or does it?-of the Minister of Energy. So therefore I hope th•t it will not be just another petition. It is all right to table it and lay it on the 'tanle of the House and have .it referred to the department to which it relates, but it is not supposed to die here. Something is supposed to be done. There has to be a response. Now it is up to someone to answer for it. ·and the time is now, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

ROBERTS: Well said. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr~eaker, I cannot let the occasion pass without rising on this particular petition for two reasons: One, 7078

May 11, 1977 Tape 2540 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: because of its subject; and t~o~o, because it comes from the district of Green Bay. I only wish that the Minister of Mines and Energy, the member for Green Bay (~r. Peckford) were here today, I understand he has other commitments, but MR. ROBERTS: In Ottawa supporting prices increases. ·MR. NEARY: Supporting gasoline prices and fuel oil prices. MR. SIMMONS: Whatever he is doing, Mr. Speaker, it is probably fair to say some things I have in mind in his presence rather than . _, .. ·: . ·: ·' ...... .. come from Green Bay.

The petition, I believe, is only part of what you will receive from Green Bay on this subject. There is a fairly massive effort,as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is probably aware,ongoing right now to give the people of Green Bay a voice in this matter. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, it is very significant that they, notwithstanding - , they have as their member the Minister of Energy, have to use this particular route to get their message across to the House of Assembly. It is certainly an indictment of a number of people,including an indictment of the government itself.

A lot has been said about the cost of electricity. I suppose we have had tens, upon tens, upon tens, upon tens of thousands of names tabled in this Rouse 7079

:·ray 11, 1977 Tape No. 2541 affixed to petitions on thi~ particular subject, and at worse they have welcomed,thes£' uetitions,Hith stoney silence from the government benches~and at best, if best is the term to use, they have been welcomed ~.rith derision, half serious comment.

On no occasion yet, ~!r.Speaker, have we heard a member of the government indid:te in any clear · terms what is being done to - not only to come to grips ~.rith the rates but to come to grips ~vith the mechanism ~.rhich is a~~o.w;(ng ~~ll~ ... {at.~s . ~.o . il1cr~ase,and. that itself is a subject <r ·.: • • • : •• • ' •• • • • • •• ~ - -~;;-·-·..:...:...'..,.J. :. · . .. '····· ._ ... · .. .. ·. : ... . ~. :· ~~:_.";-_.· : ;·, . .~· ·,. .. ,: . · .. 'I ~ : • • · . : •. '· for a full scale debate,and the rules do not permit me at this particular time to.get into debate,but I do want without reservation to support the petition presented by my friend from LaPoile on behalf of the 440 people of Green Bay, who like thousands of others across this Province have had just about all they can take when it comes to the cost of electricity. ~·fR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transporation and Communications. HR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, a few words in support of the petition from Green Bay, from 440 residents of that area of the Province, and to clarify some again misunderstandings put forward by the members of the Opposition.

The member of the House of Assembly for Green Bay., who happens to be the Ninister of Hines and Energy for the Province,quite clearly pointed out to the Rouse of Assembly a short while ago in speaking in support of petitions, plural, from around the Province, complaining of the increased cost of their powe! supply, thei~ light bills, Mr.

Speaker, it was then clearly put forward by my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy, who happens to be the NHA for Green Bay,that legislaticn will be brought to this House of Assembly in this session giving the regulatory authority in this Province, in this c~se the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities - MR. NEARY: Pawn off your responsibility on them! 7080

:1-~ay 11, 1977 Tape No. 2541 1"'M - 2 HR. :-10RCAN : ~fr. Speaker, if I could s-peak :vithout interrur>tion, :1r. Speaker. ~~. SPEAKER: Order, olease! The_ hon. gentleman Hishes to speal~ without being interrupted. ~IR. HORGAN: So: Hr.

S-peaker, \ve are supporting these -petitions ~ ·---- --- -- - ~ legislation to ensure and to enable the -provincial regulatory authority, in this case the Board of Public Utilities in the Province. . - .· · · . . . · · · \ .. • ~: . . . . . .. r;..::.::.:...::.J_:..:.::~ .. :~~__.: _--~__:__·:_:·::.. - :"-~~=--: -~-~~~:-~.- · .. :· :~. ~ ..:... :_ -~·-· :__:_- .-· ...:.._.:._ • ._ ... _. , •. - -;--.o; .. .. --.. ---;- ~ :'·fR.

NEAP.Y: You are -pa~ming it off on somebody else! '!R. ~-'lORGA ... ~: that the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro "t-.>1.11 have to bring forward to them an application for any increase in pmver rates in the Province, whethf r they be charf!ing as in this case the Light and Power, or charging directly the consumers of the Province. And I do take strong exception, Mr. Speaker, to the Opposition members saying that the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) has not been a spokesman on this matter.

As ~1inister of }'!ines and Energy he has clearly pointed out that we are concerned over the increase in the power rates · and the spiralling increase in power rates in the Province~and that action will he taken this year. So, Hr. Speaker, there has not been stoney silence in this House of Assembly from this side of the House as pointed out by the member for the Bur gee area, The fact is that we are taking action this year and all of us on this side of the House of Assembly, on behalf of the consumers throughout the Province - ~ ~ .. NEARY: You are going to set up - ~- !R. HOP-DAN: Hr.

Speaker, if the lip from Burg eo or for LaPoile would keep quiet - AN RON. 'viEI·ffiER: LaPoile. Or the mouth from LaPoile. !1R.. NEARY: The best dressed politician in government. 7081.

?1ay 11, 1977 Tape No. 2541 lffi.. :~ORGAN: If the ignoramus, ~~r. Speaker, from LaPoile t\!Ould kee!' quiet for a chan~e ! Ignoramus . 1.lJL SPEP.KE"?.: Order, -nlease! AN Wm. T·ffi:"r.:BEP..: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. ilR.. SPEA.KER: Order, :nlease! I believe I anticipated the hon. gentleman • I would draw to his attention that the .. ·. . ' -·.- ----- -;--- - - ---- -~- ;- -- _,:_ ~ - - -- -· -- - -- - . -~--· ....:.... -· , ____ - -; term ignoramus is one which many bon. members >vould regard as offensive and I \·muld ask him to ~:rithdra"t-r it. HR. NORG~'l: Nr.

Speaker, I refer to the .tem of ignorant in . ... . - .:. : · .. . ·... . . - - . . . -. ;· : .. :·;·_ ·:-;..:--.·· · .. . · .. -.-.-·:·-:.·· .. <· ~----:.:. ~ : .·.: -::· .. ..... . ...... .. :·. this case of being ignorant of the procedures used in controlling -rm-rer rates in the Prov~nce. SO~tE HOr!. HE}fBERS: Oh, oh! ~fR. ROBERTS: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! We are still on a noint of order so I cannot entertain another one.

The hon. gentleman hc.s sort of defined \vhat he meant by it and it well may be that if in originally applying the term he had used the definition rather than the term defined there may have been no interjection. But I think to keep the recor~ straight that we should regard the word ignoramus as one which should not be applied by one member of another. ~1R. ~mARY: Hithdraw. MR. HORGA~: ~r. Speaker, I thank you for your ruling and I "t-Jithdra-.r, but I again repeat that the bon. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) is ignorant of the procedures to be used in controlling pm.rer rates in this Province.

It is as simple as that. ~R. ROBERTS: A point of order. rfR. SPEAKER: A point of order. HR. ROBERTS: ~fr. Speaker- AN RON MEMBER: Another foolish argument! HR. ROBERTS: No, it is a valid point of order. I would love nothing better to debate with the minister of whatever he is - Transportation and Communications - 7G82 . . . ..... •' : . .., \ , , ·,

~1ay 11 , 19 77 Tape 2542 (Afternoon) AH-1 HR. ROBERTS : about this subject but unfortunately we are on a procedure that is a petit~on procedure. The hon.gentleman is accusing the gentleman from LaPoile of being ignorant of procedures and in turnis displaying Hhat I submit is either ignorance of the rules or disregard of the rules which quite clearly state that one is not allowed to debate on a petition,and surely everythin~ the hon member has been saying for the last few minutes~as well as being incorrect,is debate, Sir.

I mean~if it is in order well and good,but if it is in order then a number of us are prepared into the debate on the same terms. My submission is that it is not'in · ... ' . :. : :·:. . . ~- .; . . : - ~ ' ~. . ~ ~ . . . . ... . .. . ~· · , .. : :; ..... . .. order arid accordingly I would ask ' Your Honour,if my vie"t-7 is correct my view represents the ru~es,to nirect the hon.gentleman to try to act within the rules and not display "to7hat I submit is ignorance on his part, Sir. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ~10RGAN: To the point of order, Mr .• _ Speak_er. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. MR.

MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, in T"Y speaking on the petition I >vas replying to argumental points put fon.rard by the opposition spokesmen, number one from the LaPoile member saying that there was no method of controlling power rates, and number t~.ro that there was 'stoney silence from this side of the House of Assembly with regard to the matter of the increase in pow·er rates in the Province. So in my argument in speaking in support of the petition I was clarifying points which "to!ere also agrumental from the opposition members. }ffi.. SPEAKER: On'.the point of orP,er - MR. NFA..~Y: On the point of order, Sir. :t-'IR.

SPEAKER: On that point of order, yes. HR. NEARY: I would just like to set the record straight, Sir, One remark that the hon. gentleman just made,that I said that there was no method for controlling power rates in this Province: I said I 7083

May 11,1977 Tape 2542 (Afternoon) AH- 2 t-<R . NEARY: the only real authority for controlling pm.;rer rates in this Province is this House and not a regulatory body. Do not look for a scapegoat or pa~-m it off on some other group. ~-. SPEAKER: On the noint of order. The rules are C!Uite clear Hith respect to petitions that there t11.ay be no debate, Standing Order 92 requires"hon.members to confine themselves to statement of the parties from which it .comes, the number of sigp.atures, the. material allegations it contains." I think where some of the difficulties arise is that the House has not always given the strictest

interpretation to 1material allegation~and o.ne has _. allowed mat:er:ial to be presented ~vhibh is . ... ' . • , • . . ... - . . . : . . . . . . ~ .. ·. · . ·. '·' . - ., :. . . :. . . t . •• . ._ ·.. : related to it, related to the material alle gation but ~.;rhich in the most restrictive sense is. not in itself the material allegation. I am inclined to think that comment on petitions \vould be extremely limited if one were to give the most restrictive

interpretation possible to the term 1material allegation•. What I would noint out, hm,;rever, is that even using the criterion ~.;rhich has usually been applied in the Rouse there should not be confrontation or arguement of views because that has to be debate. So I think the point made by the hon.Leader of the Opposition -.;.;ras a valid one and it may well be that some prior remarks were of the same nature. But I think -v1hat \. we should bear in mind in order that ·the House will not have to apply the most restrictive

interpretation possible to the term 1material allegation• is the avoidance by hon.mernbers on both sides of confrontation of views. They may state different views \\7ithout commenting specifically upon the views of another hon.member. Does the hon member have leave to ·continue? MR. ! fi)RGAN : Mr. Speaker, in cpntinuation - Mr. Speaker I understand the rulings of the House allmvs five minutes to speak. on _a petition. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The usual understanding is that points of order and points of privilege do take up - HR.. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am nm-1 going back to the petition, not the point of order. . 7U84 ' .

}f.ay 11,1977 Tape 2542 (Afternoon) AR-3 MR . SPEAKER: The rules as. they ~re - there could be arguments that they should be di,fferent- but the rules as . they are is that points of order a:nd points of privilege ta..lce up the five minutes or take up the thirty minutes in Ouestion Period or the forty-five minutes of a speech period. There are the rules as they are. That is why I said, "Does the bon gentleman have leave'?'' SOME RON~MEMBERS: No,. .. no • . MR . SPEAKEB: Well I will have to ask,"Does the hon gentleman have . : ., .. : . ... HR.

SPEAKER: ~~en I hear a negative view it is not something on which I take a vote. ~!R. SPEAKER: Ron member for Fogo. HR. E. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. · Settle down there~· MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The hon.member for Fogo. 7-f.R~ E. WINDSOR: I certainly support the petition presented by the member of LaPoile on behalf of the 440 voters in Green Bav and~ Sir, what applies or what is apulicable to the residents or voters of Green Bay is certainly 7085 ~ r· . • · : • .•

.~ May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2543 EC - 1 CAPT. WINSOR: applicable to a great area of this Province. Now, Sir, we all recall, just a few years, maybe three or four; five years ago, the Newfoundland Light and Power carried out an extensive _campaign advertising the sale of e_lectric~ty and advis .ing people, especially p~ople who were_ building new homes, to electrify their homes -:: that was the cheapest way of heating and the cleanest way of heating a home. So, Sir, a great many people took advantage of that • . :· <-· ·. ... ~.. . . :. . . . :_ :-~ : .·:- . . . . . . ·- ~- :' .· -_··. ' A..lif RON.

MEMBER: They were conned. CAPT. ~HNSOR: They were persuaded and influenced by that advertising to do exactly that. Consequently, Sir, a great many of them now find themselves in dire financial situations, because, Sir, it is utterly impossible for them to heat their homes - MR • . NOLAN: Any sales tax on electric power? CAPT. 1il!NSOR: Oh, yes. Of course. MR. ROBERTS: Yes~ there is a sales tax. The government put a sales tax on it. CAPT.

HINSOR: And, Sir, they certainly find themselves in a financial bind now because their houses were built for the same purpose,to heat their homes by electricity; therefore, it is not easy to install other means of heating. So, Sir, if there is any control or any mechanism to control the rates of electricity, it certainly has not surfaced to this date. And I think we in this House should impress upon the powerst~at be whether it be the electrical companies or whether it be the hydro comp~ies, certain~y something has to be done to get that rate of electricity down within the means of the ordinary man.

And a great many people, Mr. Speaker, today are now trying to convert their nomes back to the old wood stove. And, Sir, I travelled through the district of Fogo - MR. NOLAN: And there are charges~ I bet. to that. CAPT. WINSOR: - a week ago - Well, I am not so sure. MR. NOLAN: Well, I am sure. CAPT. WINSOR: But, Sir, you could see piles of wood where people were out sawing wood and splitting wood and trying to heat their . 7086 I • -., .. '' ..

Hay 11, 1977 Tape No. 2543 EC - 2 CAPT. HINSOR: homes in the old-fashioned way. This is what they have to come back to after being, I would say, persuaded by the powers that be. And we, as members of this House, and government in particular, have let the electrical companies just jack up their rates day after day almost - month after month - and no action taken. · MR. ~OLAN: __,_ _ __ _ ... CAPT. ~HNSOR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly support the petition, Sir, and request that serious consideration be given. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! .. ·. . . . . -~- .. \ .. : •, t 0 : •o • '•' I • 0 MR.

SPEAKER: 'The han. member from Terra Nova followed by the han. ge~tleman from Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I want to present another petition - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Terra Nova followed by the hon. gentleman from Lewisporte, MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I cannot let the opportunity go without supporting this application - this petition with 400 names from the area of Green Bay.

And I am sure that these people from Green Bay express the same concerns as thousands of people throughout this Province~and thousands of people who indeed have expressed their opinion through the presentation of petitions in this hon. House. Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province are indeed frustrated over the escalating cost of electricity. And one group in particular, of course, that is getting hit extremely hard are those people who have installed electrical heat, and that has been mentioned here before. Mr.

Speaker, I have met so many of these people .. in my own district~ people who had wanted to have central heating ' and were advised by people to put in electrical heat, that this would be the cheapest form of heat,a~d now,of 01aSe; they find themselves in a position where they cannot pay the bill. And another point about these electrical costs is the fact that the Newfoundland Hydro at this particular time is trying to get from a deficit point to a point of profit. Mr •. Speaker, that certainly must be a point that cannot be forgotten in the next few 7C87

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2543 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: moriths. To allow the Newfoundland Hydro to come from a deficit position to a point of profit all in the one swoop cannot be allowed, and we must continually harp on this point. The people of this Province cannot afford such a rise in the cost ·of electricity and they certainly cannot afford to put up with the cost of having Newfoundland Hydro move from a deficit position t~ a profit position in one swoop~ in one quick raise. This cannot be allowed to happen • .. -~ ·. .. :. ·:· ·. · .. ~ ' '· · :"~ .. ':- . . . :.:~ · ..... : .... :: . . ·,.- :.:~-~ .... . . ... ·- - ~ ·~· ~ -·: ·~ .... : ·· : ·-.·· .. ··· ·. ... ·. : .... ~ ~ ·: ..... / 7088

May 11,1977 Tape 2544 lb-1. ijR.SPEAKER: Hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition to presen~ on behalf of 265 people in the ~ommunity of Horwood. in the District of Lewisporte. Horwood as hon. members know of course derived its name from the former Horwood Lumber· Company who· operated a major concern in the Harwood area in the early 1900's. Today Horwood, . -~ .. - :·.· -·- . - ... the people there,Mr. Speaker, derive a living from working in the woods and any other jobs they can get their hands on.

The community is located about thirty or forty miles from Gander and •it.-i:s·. ~-~ '· -~ ~:~~v~i \:~~d : ~d: ih~; prayer of the petition i~ - that the government pave this particular road this year. I might point out,Mr. Speaker,that only a few years ago was the road constructed to Horwood. I suppose it is one of the few communities in that particular area of the province which has received very little government service other than the usual kinds of things such as telephones and-electricity and so on. There is not even an artesian well, for example, in the community of Horwood. So, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the government will see fit this year to pave the road to Horwood and at the same time connect up the Gander Bay road and the Stoneville- Port Albert roads which are in the same area and encompassed within this petition. So, I present the petitibn to the House asking that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MR.. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, Transportation and Communications. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words to comment on the petition.

The area of Stoneville, Horwood and the Port Albert area I am not too familiar.with~but last summer in my travels to make myself as minister more familiar with the roads and road problems throughout the province, I recall holding a public meeting in fact at Stoneville with the member for the area. We discussed at some length then the road problems in the area and of course at that time I had the unfortunate duty, I guess, to tell them that they could not get their paving last year. 7G89

-----~---- May 11, 1977 Tape 2544 lb-2. . . MR.MORGAN: This year, Mr. Speaker, at this time I cannot give a definite indication what we can do in that area th.is year. But I will say we will give consideration to that area, in fact the same as we give consideration to all the areas around the nrovinc~ which put forward petitions to this han. House. The unfortunate thing is, of course, we have approximately 2400 miles of gr~~el road throughout the province~that remain to be constructed and ! paved.

We have limited funds to be spent each year from provincial sources on this projects. ....... · .. • . : • . : · However, I will say one thing~Mr. Speaker, that if we cannot arrang~ to have that sectio!l of road Paved this year I will give also every consideration to t~e possibility of applying a dust control measure particularly in that road leading through the communities of Port Albert, Stoneville and Horwood. At least that will help to alleviate one of the major problems, _the dust on that road in the communities where people are living.

So, whether or not they get pavement or not~the second thing is a possibility of getting a liquid calcium application to at least be a dust control measure this summer. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: Bon. Minister of Justice. MR.HICKMAN: ~r. Speaker, on behalf of the Hon.

Minister of Finance, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty for the financial year ending March 31, 1977, and to Amend the Statute Law to permit designation of beneficiaries in certain income tax savings plan,and a Bill,

An Act To Amend The Legitimatcy Act. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH. NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR.. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Health. MR ... H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have three answers here. The first is to 7()90 . ........

~y 1_1.1977 Tape 2544 lb-3. MR. COLLINS: Question No. 75, on the Order Paper dated: :Feb. 9, in the name of the hon. msmher for Lewisporte; Question No. 197 in the name of the ho~. member ~or LaPoile; Question No. 29, on Order Paper dated Feb.S, in- the name of the hon. member of Eag~e River. MR. SPEAKER: Bon. Minister of 3ustice. MR.. HICKMAN: ¥r· Speaker, I table the answer to Question No.218 on the Order Paper of Thursday March 24, 1977 asked by the hon. member for LaPoUe. 7091. . ...

}'!ay 11' 1977 Tape 2545 JM- 1 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. }'fR. ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Justice - One, two, three, four, five, six, seven; we . hav~ at least half the Cabinet here today. I hope the Press notices. A question for the Hinister of Justice, Sir; can he tell the House when the new Law Society Act will be introduced to the legislature, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. 1-ffi.. HI c:IZMt\.N : No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot. MR. ROBERTS: • 0 A supp, le~ntary, 0 Mr. Speaker~ - - .

" .. ~ .. -. ' . . . .. .. .. ' .,..,, -.......... . .. .-::-. '.' .:· .. MR. SPE.AKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Is there ·an agreed upon draft of a new Law Society Act and if it is agreed upon, with whom has it been agreed upon? MR. SPEAr.ER: The hon. Minister of Justice. }ffi.. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, there is not. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman - ~:!.R 0 SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: Is the hon. gentleman aware that the treasurer of the Law Society of Newfoundland has scheduled a public meeting for our brethern at the Bar to discuss the new Law Society Act and its implications on practitioners and the Law Society as a whole? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received an invitation as well. MR. ROBERTS: Well then,the final and obvious supplementary is - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR..

ROBERTS : How can the treas~rer of the Law.OSociety,who is also the gentleman from Kilbride,be talking about the new Law ?ociety Act if there is no agreed upon draft for it? MR.. HICI01'.AN: I can only assume, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for Kilbride in his capacity as treasurer of the Law Society intends to discuss with his brethern at the Bar what they would like to see in a proposed Law Society Act~ 7092

May 11, 1977 Tape 2545 JM - 2 }'!R. ROBERTS : Ah, but there is no agreed upon draft. Okay. 1-!R. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the han. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir~ HR.. NEA_l~Y : Pr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier disappointed the delegation for Buchans by not attending the very important meeting that l<Tas held in Central Newfoundland, would . the Premier care to now make a statement to the House as to the future of the community of Buchans and the mining operations in Buchans? :_ ·. ·MR. · SPEAKER: ·. . Th~ ·· hon .. Eremier-. : ,•' o I . . . ... . ' ~ .

PRE:YIER HOOPES: First of all, Hr. Speaker, with all due respect I do not think it was appropriate at that time for us to go out there just to sit and not be able to make any contribution. The representatives of all the applicable departments ~-rere there, senior pecple. I have not received a report from them as yet. I look fonvard to doing so and see what progress was made at the actual meeting. }ffi.. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Does the Premier have any indication at all of the~ , life span now of the Buchans mine and have they found any new deposits that may prolong the life of the mine? Hhat is the situation no"T concern~ng the future of mining in Buchans? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PP~MIER MOORES: I will take notice of the question and try to get an exact answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGrT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary; the han. memb'er for Windsor-Buchans. HR.

FLIGHT: Hould the Premier advise the House as ·to when he can expect a report from the top level civil servants he referred to that attended that meeting Monday in Grand Falls? YP.. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. I'RE:t-:!IER MOORES : Hopefully,because of the fog, hopefully as soon as they get back and get that co~~elated within the next day. 7093

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2545 JM- 3 MR. ROBERTS : Sure. h~ was at the meeting and - PREl1IER HOOPES: 1.Jell that is fine. He can tell me w·hat went on. What is he asking the questions for? _ MR. NEARY: A supplementary, }~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. One additional supplementary. MP •• NEARY: ~.Jhen the Premier gets the report from his officials and the Premier has it in his hands, will the Premier be making a - ~~ta_t;:emen:t in_.,th~ _Hou.se or tabling the report ,in the House? _ .. ·, .• . . . . . . PRE~~ER MOOP~S: Can do, yes. ~!R. NEARY: 1.Jell would the Premier put it in the record, put it in Hansard?

Will the Premier be making a public statement or a statement in the House and tabling the report? PREMIER ~fOORES : I will table the report, Mr. Speaker, sure. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. The press has reported in the last day or so that advertisements have been placed in the American papers for the sale of the assets of the Come by Chance Refinery 1 Would the - MR. ROBERTS: And in The Mainland and Newfoundlann naners. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, and in the local papers subsequently as well.

My question to the Premier is was he aware that this move was about to be madef The hon. Premier. PRIDUER HOORES : The answer is yes, ~r. Speaker, The fact is that we were advised that it was ~o b~ made., but we did not know when. There was some controversy with the Canadian Government and ourselves as to the wisdom of the particular move at the time because there are people interested in making bids.

But the British explanation of it is that the reason they called it now is because even if they did have bids that were acceptable~as the refinery is in bankruptcy they would still have to go to auction in order to assure the court in bankruptcy that they had gone through all avenues. And as the first mortgagee and as 7<J94

{ay 11, 1977 Tape 2545 PHEMIER HOOHES: the merchant banker, Kleinw!Jrt-Benson,and the British Export Credit D~~ision, as the first mortgagee they felt it was their right with or without conse~t of other groups to do what they have done. HR . SIM10NS : A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: ·A supplementary, the original questioner. lR . SU~ON S: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the Premier. I am not wanting to sound as though I am looking for legal opinions, but ·; :_ - ~~he~_;_se:,J~?.l1:~A :i--~~~:.: ,. · · . .'..:.:..:.::.:.L.;..,;': .. :<.:•'·.:.-._ ~·- · ; :<. - ~.-, ',_;.,L;: .·i.:<'." .. :·,_ .-.-. · · · · ·, •• ··': . ._._ _,., __ : 7u95 JM- 4

May 11,1977 Tape 2546 (Afternoon) AH-1 MR. SIMHONS: the Premier indicate what the implications of this move are for the government iri terms of the goyernment's equity position and even more importantly in terms of a possi'ble reopen_ing. of the refinery? There are really two questions here obviously. ~1R. SPEluZER: The hon.P .remier. PRmHER l~OORES : I do not think there will be any way to know until expiry date of the tender call which I understand is September 1st., . _.,, . Mr Speaker. . · .. ··' MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, ~-!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

MR.-·· siiALi l..T6o'n-: Th~ 'i s tli. .. ot' s' ep t.emb~- ~ :· th~ -.ini.ddle . is it not? PREMIER MOORES: The 15th is right. ~1R. NEARY: ~~Tould the han. the Premier indicate to the House if there are any proposals to reopen that oil refinery actively being considered by the government~either from ~{r. Shaheen or from the Roman group? I would like for the Premier to bear in minrl in answering the question that ~ statement was made recentlv that the Preil'ier t.ras aw·are of negotiations and proposals

whereas his Hinister of Finance was not, and the 'Minister of Finance was denying there were any statements. So would the Premier set the record straight? PREHIER HOORES: I do not think there is any conflict there, ~-fr. Speaker, We :have no ~·Tritten rro-posals, no specific ~vritten proposal:.o before government at this time,but all of us in government know? as I have told this House,there are a few groups interested in making proposals and they have been in continuous touch throughout as to what progress they ~.;ere making and that they ~vould be back at a future date.

And that included the RomanCorporation and Mr. Shaheen's people. MR. SIMMONS: A su-pplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary ,han l'l.ember for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: I would just like to rephrase the second part of mv supplementary a moment ago because I am not sure the Premier responded to it. ]'Iy question really was whether the government feels that 7096

May 11,1977 Tape 2546 (Afternoon) AH-2 MR. SIM}"ONS: the move to call nublic, to invite public bids in any way might adversely affect ~ possible reopening of the refinery at some future time? HR.. SPEA.T{ER: The J1on ·Premier. 'PRE~HER MOORES : ~!r. Speaker)that is very difficult to answer. The Federal government and ourselves both thought there should be a further delay to see if we could not get some firm proposals on the table before the. , .· .. .. · !<IR. S0010NS: Delay in going public,you mean? PREMIER HOORES : Yes.

So v7e could get some firm proposals on the the British have done,and noH that it has 'I:Jeen done the nroposals will have to come in under that condition. A further su~plementary. HR. SPEA¥..ER: A supplementary. MR.. SU1J'vfONS: Mr. Speaker, was the government, our government here,consulted by the British before the final decision Has made to go pub lie? PRn!IER MOORES : The British had notified us some two or three months ago that this was their intention, Mr. Speaker.

At that time they were talking a couple of weeks,but - I had no contact regarding the issuance of the proposals and if T.ve had ~ny contact at all it was within hours before the thing was actually in the papers and ~vas gone. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary,hon.member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, nmv that the oil refinery has been put on the auction block would the Premier indicate to the House if his ~ . administration would tolerate in any ~vay' shape or form scrapping the oil refinery or somebody bidding on it for scrap or dismantling the oil refinery and taking parts of it out of this Province? ~- SPEAY.ER: The hon.Premier. 7C97

:'-~ ay 11,1977 Tape 2546 (Afternoon) AH-3 PREMIER HOORES: Under no circumstance, Hr. Speaker. AN HON·UEHBER: What a silly question! I ~R· NEARY: It is not. It is a good questi~n, it is not a silly question. HR. SPE.A ... KER: Hon.member for Tw·illin gate. r1R. SHALL FOOD: ~-1 r. Speaker, would the Premier tell us in connection with . this announcement by, ,..:in ef:f:ect, ECGD - no, in effect PRDHER MOORES : Kleinwort - Benson MR.

SMALLWOOD: Kleinwort·~ Benson, the merchant bankers who represent the ten banks in Britain who under guarantee of ECGD put up the money, the main money, the first money for the oil refinery, is this decision of theirs to call for tenders to September 15th in fact the result of strong representations made by the Premier and by the Government of Canada to Britain, to the relevant authories in Britain, that might otherwise have been acted upon long before but for their representations?

In other words what I am asking the Premier is this: Is it not a fact that the Premier is to be thanked by everybody really involved, primarily Newfoundland, be thanked for delaying the calling of tenders to September 15th which will give those who are trying to put together a revival of the refinery - and I am thinking primarily of Mr. Shaheen - has not the Premier really made a strong contribution to that cause, that if he had not and if the Canadian Government had not . 7098

May 11' 1977. Tape 2547 RH - 1 :·ffi.. St1ALLWOOD: made the representations they did in London - and the Premier will excuse me if I say that I have heard some rumor of the representations he made in London and the representations made by the government of Canada in London. I have heard these rumors. I know little about this Come By Chance oil refinery. And I know little about this powerful effort that 11r.

Shaheen is making to get it reactivated~which is the prayer of every Newfoundlander he will succeed in doing - that the Premier and the Canadian government are to be thanked as of this moment for their success in causing the tenders to fall due not before the middle of September which gives Mr.

Shaheen and anyone else who might try to put a deal together, not to buy scrap, not to tear Come By Chance apart,but to get it reactivated, bigger and better than ever, that we owe the Premier a lot, a vote of gratitude, for having delayed this call for tenders until the middle of September, long before which date we hope and pray to God that Shaheen or someone - my own personal preference is fairly well knmvn - but someone \vill come with a deal to reactivate this great refinery, not only reactivate it but make it bigger ahd better than ever. Now that is a long question.

And the Premier will understand the sympathetic spirit in ~vhich I pose the question. And I know that Ne~vfoundland will hear T,lith enormous interest his answer to this long and rather involved question. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER. HOORES: Hr. Speaker, I am not sure if it is a question or a eulO F;Y. .- MR. SIMMONS: That bad, ah! PRENIER HOORES : Yes, probably, for somebody. Nr.

Speaker, I would like to say that we have been involved in the timing for the tender call and delaying it to try to get those people who were interested, all groups, as much time as humanly possible to try to put together a very complicated set of numbers and dollars that have to be done to reactivate the refinery. 7099

May 11,1977. Tape 2547 RH - 2 PREHIER MOORES : As I said to the member f~r LaPoile, ~r. Neary), under- no circumstances -whatsoever could this government,or any other government,! suggest, sit by in this Province to allow· that refinery to be scra!'ned, to be taken off for that and that should be made very clear and very much on the record. SOME RON. ~1EMBERS : Hear! Hear~ PRE'HIER MOORES: Like the hon. member for Twillingate(Mr.

Smallwood)i and I am sure once again every member in this House, _we a!e very ·.~ :_· ·· ~· . . ·'. · ··· · "~ "· .: · :::. · ,,· : :···~ ... ··= ,· · ... • .. ·:-·,. -~'·:"';;; ........ -.: ... · : .. ·· anxious that the refinery be activated and hopefully the September 15 deadline which is a few m9nths away will give those people who are actively interested in opportunity to get the proposals in. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Conception Bay South.

NR.NOLAN: I cannot remember offhand, I do not have a copy of the ad from Peat }mrwick Mitchell, I believe, who submitted the ad in yesterday's MR. SMALLWOOD: In behalf of Kle~nwort-Ben~on. MR. NOLAN: Well, 1o1hoever they had it on behalf of. The fact is that it was in yesterday's Telegram and also, I believe, in the Wall Street Journal. I am not aware that there was anything in the particular ad that stipulated that the refinery bought in whole or in part had to stay where it is. And this is the question that surely we are interested in right now. I mean, there is nothing in the ad.

And I would think if you were buying itJor anyone else, there is nothing in there that I know of that says it must "stay there. I 1vonder if the Premier could enlighten us on this? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, this House has certain legislative powers, and "it would be this gover~ent's intention to bring in legislation at any time if there was any threat of that. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7:100

I May 11, 1977. Tape 2547 RH - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Bellevue, a supplementary. l·ffi.. CALLAN: Mr. Speal<er, my question . _is also _ to the Premier regarding the refinery. Will the Premier comment on the suggestion that the British have now called tend~rs on the refinery naturally to get their money back, but in addition with the· hope that Ataka, ~vho has sunk approximately $300 million in the refinery concerned,in the .h?pe ~hat Ataka will bid on -it~will buy it, reactivate it and then hopefully get their money back? . · .. · ,. •. ·: . . ;. ; "'• ; • ... ~ ·~: . ....... .. .:. : · _. 71.01. I"', •

May I1~. 19 77 Tape no.2548 Page 1- ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : I do not think anyone knows that an~ver, :Hr. , Speaker. I would §uggest that tl}ey want to get a realistic proposal that can make that refinery a going concern again. There is no questioning the fact that the Japanese, the unsecured creditors - I think it is far in excess of $300 million. It is much closer to $400 million: ::.~.certainly have a very vested • interest as to what happens even in their unsecured position.

But this is one of the things the auctions will do~ we will ....... they will be interested themsehes.But I have no idea as to the answer . ~fR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppleme~tary. HR. NOLAN: I am wondering if the Premier - the Premier mentioned earlier in answer to a question that there were offers from the Roman group and also from Mr. Shaheen - I am wondering if the Premier could tell us - PREMIER MOORES : Verbally, you mean. ?<IR. N OLA1.'1 : Verbally, yes, I am sorry.

I am wondering if the Premier could tell us if in fact there have been also approaches by the Japanese~ We understand that the man in New York .. - at least the one responsitle for advancing up to something in the vicinity of $300 million - has been withdrawn fro'tll New York~ He has probably gone home to commit hari-kari or something. But the fact is, ;is there an offer from the Japanese to buy the refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premi'er. PREMIER MOORES: Not to iny knowledge, Yr. Speaker, no. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay Verte - 1fuite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether he has received any word or any correspondence yet from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Dr. Selikoff regarding the road dust samples that were taken on the Baie Verte Peninsula last June,I do believe? 7:102

May- f~ 1977 Tape no. 2548 Page 2 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the only indication from Dr. Selikoff has been-an indirect indication through the media in the Province, the electronic media, ~vho were in contact with Dr. Selikoff and the Mount Sinai research foundation~ or facility in the States whereby Dr. Selikoff did indicate publicly that his report would be forwarded to the Newfoundland Government in a matter of days, and that interview was with Dr. Selikoff approximately two weeks ago.

The report, I unders~and, would not : . .. '. . •• ! :': •• • , • :' . ' .·. ~ ' :: • •• ; ••· •' .: •• ·:' be coming to me. It would be coming to my colleague,the Minister of Health. It is regarding ~ matter pertaining to a health hazard in the Baie Verte area. So to date neither my colleague nor myself has received any official correspondence, in fact any correspondence whatsoever from Dr. Selikoff, none whatsoever. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, I am sure the minister will acknowledge that a health hazard related to road dust would be the direct responsibility of the minister. Since the minister is aware of Dr. Selikoff's comments to the media only a couple of weeks ago, has the minister's department at any time ever made any effort to get in touch with Dr. Selikoff to ask him if he could have the road dust analysis that was carried out in that area, a copy of whatever the results were? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we did. In fact, last Fall the Deputy Minister of Transportation and Communications contacted Dr.

Selikoff by phone and spoke to him briefly, and it was briefly. MR.. RIDEOUT: When? - MR. MORGAN: In the Fall of 1976. - and it was briefly because Dr. Selikoff in no uncertain terms clearly indicated to the Deputy Minister of Trasnportation and Communications that it was none of his business, tbe repor~ was coming in to the Department of Health, it had nothing 7103 ·' ... ... "· ';'. .•

May 11 1977 Tape no. 2548 Page 3 - ms Mr. Morgan. to do with Transportation. So the deputy minister was merely inquiring about Dr. Selikoff's statements l,rhicl;l were made by him,or at least attributed to him.in the media in the Province. The only contact we have made since is a call to his office ~-1hich, I tmderstand, was made about two months ago, again requesting some confirmation of the statements made, and to verify the research carried out by the Department of Transportation and Communications in co-ordination with the geology department of the University here in St.

John's - ~hie~ di'd ·n~~- gi~~· -· ~y ~~~cl:usi~~ ·e~fd~~ce. ~h~t· there was any asbestos dust in the road dust on the Baie Verte Peninsula. So other than that, ~(r. Speaker, we have had no correspondence or contact with Dr. Selikoff. · MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT : Hr. Speaker, this is the most urgent matter facing the people of the Baie Verte Peninsula today.

In view of that, could the minister tell the House - and there is a report onthe way to the minister- could the minister tell the House whether or not he will make another effort to get in touch with Dr. Selikoff because the Summer is going to be gone in another couple of months and the construction season is going to be over. Could the minister tell the House, tell me, tell the people of the Baie Verte Peninsula , will they get in touch with Dr.

Selikoff , ask him to send down the statistical analysis- because I have a letter which I have sent to the minister today - but to send down tlu! statistical analysis so we can look at it and get on with the job? It is the minister's responsibility to take this ball right to New York if necessary. I am not the minister. . 71.04 . ; ":; .... ·:.·

May 11, 19 77. Tape 2549 RH- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I again indicate- taking the.ball! We took the ball last Fall. The report was not going to be filed with the Department ofT. and c. 1 although there is an indirect connection and now maybe a direct connection, but the report was coming in to my colleague, the Minister of Health. It was going to deal with all possible health hazards on the Baie Verte Peninsula area in connection with asbestos dust. It was not just merely one report for the Department of T. and C.

It was an official report to the administration : . ~: ; - :· .. · •... .. .... :: .... ..o;- · ~- ...: ~ . : • ~ :'· ·~. :: ... . : ..... : ..... ·:!:·.i· _ .... · '• : .. · -.. ~ .::.··~=~-_ ... ~; . l..:.· #: .:_"-·:· ~ :: .• _:t: .: .: ~ . J •• .. : ._.:._:--"-: : - • • • • · • ·--:-...·: ' •.• ~- ~ - ~ -:.·-·. - • .... ~ - ..... • .. , . . . .. . . . . ~.:. :' . : ... . · : ..... ; ~ :.,- of the Province. Now sure I will arrange for the officials of the department again to make contact.

But I sincerely hope~and I repeat, I sincerely hope that the response from Doctor Selikoff will not be of the insulting nature as it was last Fall. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice I am dissatisfied with the answer and I will debate it at the late show tomorrow. MR. MORGAN: The answer about what? MR. RIDEOUT: The answer about everything. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in connection with this rather urgent matter, this health hazard in the Baie Verte area,and in view of the fact that Doctor Selikoff is working independently of government, is not commissioned by government in any way, shape or form, is under no obligation to this government, does the Minister of Health not think that it is "incumbent upon him and his officials and his department to investigate an explosively potential health hazard on that road on the Baie Verte Highway and in Baie Verte in connection with asbestosis?

Does the minister not feel there is some obligation for the minister to ·take the initiative? Doctor Selikoff., who is down in New York, took the initiative. Should not the minister be taking the initiative and doing something about this? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, Doctor Selikoff and the Mount Sinai University are not doing, they have done the report at the request of the Steelworkers Union, I think, in Baie Verte, 7105

May ll, 1977. Tape 2549 RH- 2 MR. COLLINS: not entirely outside the auspicies of the government. As I indicated to the House earlier,when Doctor Selikoff agreed to go in and do the study naturally he made contact with us and there were a number of telephone calls back and forth and some correspondence. And we indicated to the doctor at the time that all of the resources of the Department of Health, the university would be made available to him. MR. NEARY: I know. I understand all of that but there is no direct - MR. COLLINS: And everything that he asked for we supplied him with in human resources.

We also supported the study financially. I forget what the figure was, but not a great deal of money. But there was a certain amount of money. And he did not want very much from us really in terms of financial backup. Doctor Selikoff is a gentleman who we all realize now maintains a pretty high profile. I suppose the type of work which he does, a lot of research work at a big university, he wants to let all the people in the United States and Canada and elsewhere know that he is there because they have to go out and raise funds, of course, for research work.

But Doctor Selikoff has promised us a report just as soon as he can get all of the information put together. And I would prefer that Doctor Selikoff and his team would take the time to do the report properly. I assume they did their testing and so on in Baie Verte. And knowing that the man has credibility, I am sure that the report will be coming to us just as soon as it is ready. In fact, I believe, although I am not sure of this either because he has not made any formal commitment to us as to the date of a report being submitted.

AOd we will be getting a copy, It will go to the Steelworkers' Union in Baie Verte. But I believe that on the basis of the X-rays, etc. which were performed on the ·.individuals in Baie Verte, I think a lot of the miners probably have received word back. I understand some of them have anyway from Doctor Selikoff. The hon. member might - MR. MORGAN: Not one, no, no • . 71.06 ...

May 11, 1977. Tape 2549 RH- 3 MR. COLLINS : But it is my understanding that they have. I have not got anything in writing to show that. MR.. RIDEOUT: Within.. three weeks. :tom.. COLLINS: Within three weeks. But we could - I can- call Doctor Selikoff tomorrow afternoon,or this afternoon for that matter. But I am not sure what purpose it might serve. MR. NEARY: ' . What is that going to do about it. MR. COLLINS: Well we are waiting for the report. MR. NEARY: You are not going to get the backup material from ' .' .... .·: ·- MR. COLLINS: I am pretty sure we will.

Doctor Selikoff promised to co-operate with us to the extent that we co~operate with him, and that was the maximum co-operation •. MR . NEARY: He is not going to give you his X-rays and all this sort of thing. You are not going to have access to all the documentation. MR. COLLINS: The hon. member, Mr. Speaker, is talking about a subject 7107

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2550 EC - 1 MR. H. COLLINS: of which he know~ very little. MR. NEARY: I know all about it. MR. H. COLLINS: And MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. H. COLLINS: We have an expert - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! When the han. gentleman is answering there should not be that kind of interruption. MR. RIDEOUT: . . . • • : . ... t ··• .. .... A supplementa:cy, -~r . .. ~pe~-~~-r~ · - ~ ___ _ ... •. . ::.··:. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, original questioner. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health could tell the House when was the last time his department was in touch with Dr.

Selikoff, asking him how he was getting on with the report -whether he had it ready, and when we could expect to get it? MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I certainly would not want to give a date because I might give the wrong date, but I will certainly tmdertake to get that information for the r,on. member. I do not want to get into a public discussion with Dr. Selikoff. I could say two weeks or three weeks ago and that might not be the facts, but I will certainly get ~hat information. MR. RIDEOUT: But you will get the information? MR. NEARY: A further supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: One further supplementary, the han. - -- gentleman for LaPoile and then the hon. gentleman for Twillingate. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House whether the officials of the provincial Department of Health will have . access to the X-rays 'all the documentation and all the . working papers and all of Dr. Selikoff's files, and will they be thrown open for perusal, to be scrutinized by the minister's official? Does the minister know that? And is Dr. Selikoff under any obligation at all to give the Province a report? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

And whether Dr. Selikoff gave us a copy of the report or not I do not think is too important,

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2550 EC - 2 MR. H. COLLINS: but I am sure he will. But if he provides the report 1 which I am sure he will do~ to -the Steelworkers Union of America, the local at Baie Verte, I have no doubt at all that we will be getting a ·copy of it just as quickly as they do. 'HR. NEARY: What about the working papers, the X-_~ays_ and so for~ will you have access to that? MR. H. COLLINS: I will certainly look into that, but I presume - I am sure we will get whatever information is necessary. MR. SPEAKER: T~e han. member for Twillingate. : ' · .. ·· .. -· ··:. . · . . . . •. • .. ~ · '•. . MR.

SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Health give me his opinion on .an assertion made to me two or three weeks ago in the airport terminal in Montreal. I was on my way to London and a man there came up and made himself known to me. He turned out to be a man named Hutchinson, the Chairman of the Board of the company - lfuat is the name of the company? MR. RIDEOUT: Advocate Mines. - MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, no, the company that owns Advocate Mines . S'JYE ·~()N. 'MEMBERS : Johns-Manville. MR. SMALLWOOD: Johns-Manville - Mr. Hutchinson. That the long delay in the report from New York from Dr.

Selikoff was to him clear indication - clear, and to him, unmistakable indication; and he was immensely interested as head of the company in Baie Verte he would be enormously concerned - that the long delay is clear indication to him that the report from Dr. Selikoff will be, as we all hope and pray to God it will be, that we do not have to worry too much. And then, would the minister comment on the further statement made to ~e by Mr.

Hutchinson that their operation in Quebec - I suppose it is about the same kind of operation - in a long, long period of time with hundreds and hundreds of workers, twenty-five, thirty years and more working at the same kind of work end up in perfectly good health. MR. RIDEOUT: That is not true. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, I do not know whether it is true or not. MR. RIDEOUT: I can put it on paper. 7109

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2550 EC - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, well, I have no knowledge .. I am asking the minister - MR. RIDEOUT: I wil~ go down to the office and bring up all the stuff from Quebec and start reading it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, I would certainly love to read it. MR.: -RIDEOUT: Yes. --- - MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know that I would love to read it - I would be most interested in reading it. But what I am asking the minis~er is .. ~is. reaction _to the s~at,eme:n:t - MR. RIDEOUT: I am not worried about the reaction\ MR.

SMALLWOOD: - to me in casual conversation by that Chairman of the Board of the company that owns and operates Baie Verte. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we generally believe in the Department of Health and the people who are involved in the occupational Health and Safety Division, that by virtue of the fact that Dr. Selikoff has not seen fit to rush the report, certainly would indicate that things look pretty well down there.

Now I cannot say for sure if that is a fact or not, but I would presume that had the X-rays which were done, and other tests which were done by him and by our own people, had they shown any cause for alarm I suspect that Dr. Selikoff would have had his report out pretty quickly. I think that is what the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) is alluding to. However, I would not want to say that that is so, but there is every appearance that Dr. Selikoff is not attachi~g too much importance - MR. SMALLWOOD: --- .. - Not conclusive, but it ±s suggestive. MR. H. COLLINS: That is right. 7110

May 11, 1977 Tape No. 2550 EC - 4 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Before calling the motion, I would welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of all hon. members some gentlemen from Badger - Mayor Guy Coleman, . . .. •·. . :. . '·.· ··.; ·.~ -~ ·. "' ... . ,.· ':_ .. 71.1.:1

'. May 11, 1977 Tal;Je 2551 RT-1 YR. SPEAKER: Coun'cilloi Davis and Councillor Hayden. I knov1 all hon. members join me in welcoming: these gen.tlemen to the House of Assembly. SO}!E HO~. MW!BERS : Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: It being Private Hembers' Day, r~otion 7 is called and the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrmo1) Has delivering his discourse. A point of order has come up. l-IR. NEARY: I do not know if it is a point of order, a .. ',•. ' · :.-:.. point of information, or what, Sir~· but, Mr.

Speaker, I·am prepared to forego Private Members' Day to carry on with the Linerboard debate, because if we do not carry on with it, Sir, we are going to destroy the momentum that has been created in the last two or three days. I believe the Government House Leader should call the Linerboard debate and let us get on with it. It is a rather urgent matter, Sir. Give up Private Hembers' Day. SO~ HON • ~1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It being Private Hembers' Day I automatically call the Private Members' motion.

If what the hon. gentleman is askir~ is whether there is leave, whether there is unanimous consent to revert to Notion 6, which is the Linerboard debate, I cannot call it, indeed the Governnent cannot call it, but if there is unanimous consent, then the House can call it. So, is there unanimous consent to go to the Linerboard debate? S0!1E RON. 'ME~fBERS : Yes, Yes! SOME HON. MEMBERS : No! MR. SPEAKER: The hort. Minister of Justice. ~fR. HICIQfAN: ~1r. Sneaker, I asked yesterday of my frier:d opposite for unanimous consent and the official Opposition have indicated they are not prepared to grant it. MR.

MORGAN: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! What shame? Such an important debate! Oh, oh! 7112

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2551 ET-2 '-IR. SPEA.TZER: The . hon. member for _Concepti.on Bay South. r.fR.. :10LAN: If the private discussion is over, ~rr. Speakerl The hon. House Leader knows that he discussed this with me last evening. Ee also knows the ans~rer that I gave on behalf of my colleagues. ~·!e happen to feel that the Linerboard ·mill is one .of the most vital things to come before this House in a long time.

He also know that certain things are going to happen in the next couple of days and we also know . that the Joint Venture is important; and ~re have decided ,and this has already been conveyed to my friend, the hon. House Leader opposite, that . . . ~ .. .. · before this House opened today and last evening that ~ve would go with Private ~1embers 1 Day today. It is as simple as that. I 'Tiean, all - ~fR. SPEAKER: . Order, please! The hon. gentleman's question-has been answered. Unanimous consent is not given.

Hotion 7 is called and the hon. member for Bay of Islands C·Ir. ~-Joodrow) was in the midst of his discourse. SOHE HON. lffiMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, SOHE HON. HEMBERS: Hear, h~ar! HR. WOODROW: I would like to continue my remarks on the motion as presented by the hon. member from LaPoile (~1r. Neary) in connection with Joint Ventures. Before continuing to do so I would like to say that we have had a lot of doom and gloom in the House over the past couple of days. In fact, most of it came from the West Coast of the Province.

I am happy to say that there is a very bright spot on the West Coast and I refer to the herring fishery; in fact, I only heard today, although the sprin~ herring fishery has been ~oing on for some time, that the six herring fishing plants are working to full capacity. There was a ne~1ly renovated plant in Cox 1 s Cove last year.- They have now added two newfillere~ to this plant and they are emnloying t~venty-nine people. .. 71.13

May 11, 1977 Tape 2552 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. L. Woodrow: There is a company formed, Two of the most respected citizens of the West Coast in the persons of Joe Taylor from Bonne Bay and Captain John R.~Iackett from Halfwa~ Point, Bay of Islands, have formed a company and it is called T .-- and H. Fisheries. And this new plant is turning out to be very beneficial to this part .of my district, that.is to say to the community of Cox's Cove~ The Silver Dolphin,a large boat owned by Captain John Hackett,landed 100 tons of herring in Cox's Cove last Saturday. And these hert;"ing were. trucked .. to. places like ..

Curling, to . . . . . ·. . , . .... _._ - ~-.. - ::_;_ ·": ··:···.-·-c·.. . . :. ·.- · . . · .. ·. ·. ·: . Benoit's Cove and Lark Harbour.

And up to this date, in fact, herring had to be trucked from as far back as Arnold's Cove and other places on the East Coast, so it is really nice to know that the herring supply now for the plants, for the six plants in the area,are coming from Cox's Cove and this is going to mean a lot more employment because it is going to give employment not only to the people who are directly connected with the processing of the herring, but it will also give work to truck drivers as well. MR. MURPHY: How has the price.been? Are they gettigg a dollar? MR. WOODROW: Oh they certainly are, yes.

They are certainly making a very good dollar on it. And it also, Mr. Speaker, to my mind brings out the importance of having private enterprise look after any,! suppose, and all ·project if possible in our Province. I have always felt that private enterprise should be encouraged everywhere in the Province, and I hope that it will continue and may I say also that if we ever get the Linerboard Mill going again, I hope with God's help we ~ill, that it will go under private enterprise.

Now these large quantities of herring are giving employment not only to the people in Cox's Cove, at least to a portion of them, but they are giving employment to the people all over the district, giving employment to the people· in Curling and all along the South shore of the Bay of Islands and in · ottJer communities on the North shore as well. And this is really , very : very encouraging, and I hope that this will continue because it is giving 7114 ,• . ~ ·.:-- ... ·": ~ .. :

May 11, 1977 Tape 2552 (Afternoon) Pk - 2 MR.. WOODRm-1 : a lot of employment to both the males and the females ·in the area, -and when there is no herring fi~hery they are able to get their unemployment, which means a lot to the district of the Bay of Islands, and it certainly makes me very happy • . Mr. Speaker, the motion deals primarily with the . . •' . . . 200 mile management zone, and also with joint ventures.

And the resolution of the motion is: Be It Therefore Resolved that in orde _r to g~ve ~ffect to ;.~ ese purpose~ ~- Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the proposals with respect to joint ventures, to examine th~ir implications · and effects with resrect to the fishery of Newfoundland and 7115

May 11' 1977. Tape 2553 RH - 1 ~fR . WOODROI.J: Labrador and to report thereon. Hr. Speaker, when I · s~arted to address the House on this IUoti-on last Wednesday I emphasized that I would vote against the motion because w~ have a very capable Hinister of Fisheries. In fact, his capabilities, his qualifications have been made 1vell known in this House of Assembly. They have been made known by the former Premier, by just about every m~ber in fact who spoke on fisheries.

I know and realize that they have the greatest respect for him and they feel that he is capable,with his competent staff,of doing a good job for the Province of Nevlfoundland; capable, in fact, of at last getting this great industry off to a good start, off to a different start. I suppost we could say to a 1977 start after our history of 500 years of fishing. lrr. Speaker, last Friday I had the pleasure of speaking on television and I took for my topic joint ventures.

I pointed out how important this is for the Province of Newfoundland and also,I should say,that it is something, to me)at least, and I think to all of us, it is something like new life being pumped into the fisheries.In other words, we have to learn all about it. I suppose in fact you could say it may be I do not know whether the comparison is good or not - but it is almost like the birth of a new baby in a family: You have to start off,in fact,right from the beginning and nurse the baby up until he or she is strong enough to 1valk on his own feet.

So I do not think really that we should expect miracles right away. It is going to take time to get the new fishery programme,as it were, off the ground. }rr. Speaker, I am very glad also to say that my district is a very important district for the herring fishery. And we have there,in fact, we have at least six herring plants. And they are also, to a certain degree I suppose, they are run by private enterprise, granted that the money has been put in them from government sources, but the people who are running then know 1-rha t they are doing.

They are very intelligent, very productive and maybe I should say very good Newfoundlanders. 71.16

May 11, 1977. Tape 2553 RH - 2 MR. WOODROW : And as a result in fact of those plants it certainly is alleviating a lot of unemployment -=-in the district. There are, for example, in the Curling area there are plants that are owned by Barry Fisheries, Dunphy's Fisheries. and Humber ; .. . - .... ... 71.17 . · ..... .

May 11, 1977 Tape 2554 lb-1. MR. WOODROW: Cold Storage. ,I suppose altogether these plants may be giving as much as 1probably employing up to five or six hundred people, and giving a lot of work also to maybe people li!te truckdrivers and the like. A little farther on down the shore we have the very enterprising firm of Allen's Limited. They are not only engaged in the herring fishery, but they are engaged in the lobster fisheries and in the salt cod and other species as well.

This in fact is a privately owned company and very little government funds have been put . ·: . ;:, : .. in it 9 but it is doing a lot for the community of Benoit's Cove and the nearby pla~es. Of course, then National Sea Products are established in Lark Harbour. They are employing, I just cannot say offhand, but maybe in the vicinity of seventy or eighty people.during the herring season. I understand that '. there will be a new plant built out there in the very near future. Also, to encourage the fisheries in the Lark Harbour area the hon. member from Humber-St. George's - St.

Barbe got for the people this year, they will be getting a new wharf built out there, at a cost of some $200,000. There is also a wharf being built under the LIP Programme over in Little Port. All of this in nact is doing wonders for the fishery in this part of the province, namely, in the Bay of Islands District. As I said eaElier,the enterprising firm of T .& H. Fisheries took over the plant in Cox's Cove~· last year and they have added this year two filleter machines and they really mean business and I feel they are going to do a lot £6r the fisheries in· this part of my district.

So, it is really encouraging~Mr. Speaker, to be able to report such a good thing for the fisheries in the Bay of Islands District. MR. NEARY: Tell us a few things about joint ventures. }fR. WOODROW: About what? MR. NEARY: About what the resolution calls for. 71.18 . ..

May ll, 1977 Tape 2554 lb-2. MR.WOODROW: Now we are coming to that Mr. Speaker. I mentioned some things about it already. If you wa1;1t to hear some more about-it maybe I could read a part of this for you first of all. MR.NEARY: You are not allowed to read speeches. AN.HON.MEHBER: Statistics only MR. WOODROW: Yes, statistics only. I believe that join~ _ventures is presently the most logical and effective solution.

Through cooper~tion with other countries like the West Germans~ . . ' .. ~: :. -· . -.. · -: ·. ~·~:::··-:.: .. :-. .-~ ... ~_::.• --~:-.-~::·:: __ :·.=-~·:~ . .:.:·:· ·:' .· -·-· ,.· . . :· :_ . .. · :- ,. . . . ... . who have the catching capabilities, ·the exj,etise a~d advanc~d .. . . ., technology our present ~easible industry can be turned into a propserous\viable,year-round operation. MR.NEARY: We are to take it the hon member is in favour of joint ventures. MR.. WOODROW: Well, I see that that was coming,Mr. Speaker.

What I am saying is that we are starting off on a new venture and we have to learn what it is all about. I think that +really joint ventures are going to help us because they are going to teach us something. But I do not expect, 711.9

}ray ll, 1977 HR. WOODROW: and I ~..:rould want them in fact t_o continue in the future,but I hope they will continue as long as T,7e feel they should continue. Our traditional eight to twelve week fishing season is just not enough to provide a measure of economic security for communities with a relatively very weak base. If joint ventures prove to be successful, as I believe they will, it would mean that fish plants could offer full-time employment while the plants could expect a specialized permanent work force processing a variety of .. species of fish fpr our broadened world markets. JM - 1 .. Mr.

Speaker, I therefore feel that when we get properly established, are'properly on our feet,then maybe in fact)and I hope so~ we will be able as it ~..:rere to venture out in the deep on our own. }1r. Spe-aker, with the introduction of the 200 mile limit this year our fishing industry is facing the biggest challenge in its history. ~vith sharp reductions in foreign fishing quotas and increased management within the zone it is hoped that fish stocks hitherto dwindling will restore themselves to a healthier level.

With increased fish stocks the challenge for us all will be to build up our New·foundland fishing effort in order for us to harzest the total allowable catch in our own ships to be processed year-rotmd in our own plants utilizing a permanent., specialized work force. l.Je are presently looking at the development of our fishering effort so that we will have the ships and expertise to increase fish landings to the point where the Province's one-and-one-half billion pound plant processing capability will be fully utilized.

No fishery can develop overnight the sophistication needed to exploit our marine resources now available to our Newfoundland fleet. Special ships are needed to utilize the Hamilton Banks stock, vessels that are strengthened to operate in ice which covers much of the area at this time of the year. Until we have the ships and expertise to do the catching ourselves,joint ventures appear to be ·a logical alternative, most importantly as a learning experience for our 71.20

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2555 JH- 2 MR. WOODROI-7: Newfoundland fishermen and indeed for our fishery officials in general. We will continue to develop the Ne~vfoundland fishery for the benefit of our fishermen and continue to find new possibilities and directions within the industry to make it the primary resource it has always been for Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I think my time has just about expired. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. \<lOODROW: 1 .

I want:. to. say t::hat I back the Minister of Fisher:Les, the'Premier and the administration one hundred per cent and I admire the efforts, the visits they have made, the· European trips and the like. I am sure in fact all these trips have been very productive and as time goes on and I hope in the near future, Mr. Speaker, we ~.;ill reap the benefits of the fisheries of Nelvfoundland. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~'R. SI1A¥0NS: The bon. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, the resolution we are on is really the coming together, the happy marriage of two resolutions.

I would suggest it is a portent of things to come where we shall witness more happy marriages involving the individuals concerned. }lR. NEARY: :t-ffi.. SIW.10NS: on the We are getting closer together. All the time. The member for LaPoile put down a motion 71.21. .. ,. . --·

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2556 RH - 1 ~ • S P.~fONS : Order Paoer on opening day on the subject of ioint ventures, as 'l-ie recall. The Leader of the Oooosi tiqn nut oown a resolution whose concern v7as the same, and, as T sav, there was a haony marria~e of both. And we have the one resolution standing, as is aonronriate, in the name of the me~ber for LaPoile (~r. Neary). HR. NOLA.~: MR. MURPHY: ~fR. SIMJJONS: If we can recognize Red China. New leader! New leader! Ah, Hr. S!'eaker, I say to my friend from St. John's Centre (~r. ~urphy) we do not have any leadershi!'l problem over here. MR. MURPHY:·· · .-:. . · .. ~m.

S P-iMONS: No .. bands -: or anything? . . . .. No leadership nroblem over here. I have got mv hand all ready to go, all nrimed UP. AN HON. MEMBER: AN RON. HP1BER: ~- · SIMMONS: The band ready, literature orinted! Of course, you are not running! Well, it may be for renting. As a matter of fact I have tried to nail it on the guy from LaPoile e1r. Neary). I cannot quite determine ~vhether he has booked it or he has just got an option on it. But one way or the other he will figure in the band, either as a member or as a sponsor. '1R. NEARY: No, I ~..rill be playing: the tambourine. MR. SIMMONS: Hr.

Sneaker, that is another ;oint venture V.'e will love to talk about, but the one I want to talk about today is the one to which the motion addresses itself. I represent one of the great fishing districts of this Province, Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. For many, many years, for decades now, ~1r. Speaker - tfR. MURPHY : you ever heard of. ~ • s nu-~oNs : We have seen more fish marketed in Steers Cove than I would love to have a battle of wits with the member for St. John's Centre (H:;-. Yurphy) excent it would he a one-sided battle, and I ~vould not dare to say in which direction.

I would not dnre to say in 'l-7hich direction. MR. r--rrJRPHY: Anyway, I am sorry> 'P.oger'. Go ahead. MR. SP~ONS: Mr. Speaker, Burgeo -Bay d'F.spoir has a tradition which goes back into the last century, well back into the middle of the last century. Burgeo itself - the dates of settlement escaoe me - but the oeople 7122

Hay 11, 1977. Tape 2556 RH - 2 ::1R. Sll1HONS: there have alv1ays from the very earliest days relied on · a thriving year- round fishery. Indeed that Coast is the only part of this Province which can truly claim to have a year-round fishery. The people in Burgeo and Ramea and Francois and Macallum, those communities in particular in my district and other communities on that Coast.fish fully ten and a half months to eleven months a year. Now they have some lean periods.

They have some slack periods, slack, not in terms of their- involvement but ~lack. _ in ~erms of the return that they get for ' · ~ - ., . ·~ ~ . ' . ' . . ' ...... ~ their efforts. But barring Christmas Day and bad weather they are out there in their boats, vn1atever the size, from early morning on. And the result is that they prosecute the fishery in a way that is unknown,for various reasons,in other parts of the Province, unknown by virtue of weather conditions, climatic conditions on the Northeast Coast and on the Labrador Coast.

It is the South Coast of this Island which has the most potential for the development, the future development of the fishery. And it is for that reason in particular,as a member for one of the South Coast ridings,that I ~an get particularly excited about the advent of the 200 mile limit and its implications for the future of the fishery. All forms of the fishery are prosecuted on the Southern part of this Island. They have a very thriving inshore fishery, codfishery in particular. They pursue the herring fishery. They pursue the lobster and the salmon fishery.

We, of course, on the South Coast have the big trawler fleets which pursue the midwater and the deep sea fishery. So in a variety of ways,as plant workers, as inshoremen, as trawlermen, in a variety of ways we have men and women who prosecute the fishery or who participate in the processing of the catch in one form or another. So it is appropriate that I,as a member representing a district with such a continuing and long tradition in the fishery,should want to address myself to it for a few minutes.

I believe most of the things that need to be said on this subject have been said, beca~se the decision we are asked 7123

May 11' 1977. Tape 2556 RH - 3 ~!R. SIMMONS: to make in this resolution is fairly clear and pretty much to the point.

The resolution having set forth a number of whereases, a number of argumentsfor the step which is being proposed, the resolution then proceeds to say, "Now be it therefore resolved that in order to give effect to these purposes;' the purposes outlined above in term~ of the feasibility of joint ventures and how they might serve the future of fisheries enterprise of the Province, "now therefore to give order, to give effect to these purposes a select committee to be . ::- :. . . ~ ... · ·_: ···: ;;::· ~·.··:. ~ -: .. ...

" · . . appointed to inquire into the proposals with respect to joint ventures, to examine their i.mplicat~ons in effect with respect to the fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador and to report thereon.'' And the resolution goes on to give power to the committee to sit in and out of session, to send for papers and documents and that kind of thing, the usual provision for a select committee of this House. But the burden of the motion, the essential decision,is whether we ought to set up a committee of this House to look into the whole question of joint ventures. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I referred a moment ago to the extent of the fishery insofar as my own district in my own part of the Province is concerned. But let us,for the sake of a prospective, let us look at the impact of the fishery on this Province as a whole. 71.24

Xay 11, 1977 Tape 2557 RT-1 MR. SI~10NS: The fishery today has a direct implication for over 300 communities.in Ne,~foundland and Labrador ~ I understand there is "t.;ell in excess of 15,000 people actually involved in the catching of fish of one kind or another. Fifteen thousand get th~ir direct livelihood from catching fish.

I am told that there is another 10,000, an additional 10,000 people involved in fish handling and fish processing.so that with the 15,000 plus who are catching and the 10,000 who are handling and processing you have 25,000 plus - 25,000 people, as a minimum,involved in the fishery at this particular moment in time • . ·-· : .• -·· : .·· ... . ·- . That represents about 15 per "cent of the entire labour force of this Province - 15 ~er cent. Mr. Speaker, we in this country talk a lot about resources, untapped resources, and the difficulties of tapping our resources. But here, Mr.

Speaker, I am firmly convinced, is one area where not only do we have tremendous resource potential but we are beginning to find the way to properly, eff1ciently tap that resource. It is an exciting resource. It is one that offers a lot of promise for us economically and socially. I say socially because a good part of our problem in this country has been that we have become involved in ventures which, •·:hile economically sound, are socially - ethnical;Ly, if you like - socially, culturally very much out of step with our way of life.

That is not to criticize them but it is to comment on the Come-by-Chance operation, the Churchill Falls operation to some degree.

You know, the thought that 1,000 Ne't~foundlanders could be hemmed in an artificial community such as Churchill Falls is, - that thought,if you related it to a period of ten or twenty years ago, 'Ymuld be absolutely unthinkable; that fellovs so used to living in the communities around the bay - Trinity Bay and Bonavista Bay and Placentia Bay - would fiRd themselves today completely landlocked in a very artificial type community, the only exit from which is by plane about three times a week, a very artificial set of circumstances in comparison or in relation to our tradition as a pepple - our lifestyle - our physical lifestyle as a people. / . 7125

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2557 RT-2 ~lR . S L~!O N S : The . ffshery, unlike the hydro developnent I referred to or unlike the Carne-by-Chance developmen~ or unlike others that we have !"ocked into, even the Buchans mining operation, for example, or the St.

La~-rrence Mininr; o~eration, or the iron ore. mines in the Labrador City/~·~abush area, or the asbestos mine in Baie Verte, or the copper mine in Baie Verte, or the five ~opper mines that used to operate in Green Bay - in Tilt Cove and Whalesback and Little Bay and Gull Bridge - and the other mining operations around this Province are in many respects not foreign to our way of · ~ · : .. i~~e .· b~t'.,~·~~~ai~l;:·~~t· :· ~~:'.-~~-~il~ :d~~~t~ii~J' . int~ 6ri~ ~~~y -~f life as ' . ·. is a resource industry, the fishery, which is physically a part of the community and physically a part of our way of life as a whole.

So, ~ think it is particularly appropriate that the fishery should be showing the promise it is at this time, 71.26

Hay 11,1977 Taoe 2558 (Afternoon) AH-1 ~- SI~fONS: because in the fishery ~v e are not dealing ~vith a lot of unknowns. Now it is true there are unknowns.I do not beg the question of what the total potential is, what the total yield -of the fishery is: I do not beg the questions which are unanswered about the impact of ne~v technology ir the fishery; I do not beg the question about VIhether or not the ICNAF quotas are going to conserve the fish stocks to the degree that they P\lrport •. Th~re . are still a lot of unknmms in the fishery, there is no auestion about that.

But in terms of whether or not it is suited to our lifestyle .. ·.·.· .·'. .. . . ·.·· .· . ··.·. · .. as a people)obviously we have 450 years of history behind us to verify that it is very sqited to our lifestyle. In that contextl in the socio-cultural context,the fishery is an industry that ~-Je have lived fairlycomfortably ~.;rith - also fairly poorly with too~I might sav-hut fairly confortably with.

It is an industry that does not have the "lazards associated ~·7i th it, for exartl!'le, that mining does,where today a fair amount of our Question Period was taken up in the matter of occupational hazards imposed by the asbestos industry. And I say these comments not to downplay those industries,all of Hhich are playing a very important part economically in our way of life here,but just to draw a contrast VIith the relative safety~if I might call it such, the relative safety in a social- cultural sense of the fishery, there are not as many unknmms.

And now that we are coming into a time where resourse stocks aopear to be assured in the long-term 1 though fairly precarious in the short-term, let there be no doubt in the short-term, Hr. Speaker, we are facing very difficult times, ~ve are faci~g substantial .9own-time in the plants on the South Coast; · in Burgeo and Ramea in my district and in other plants along the South Coast, facing it because of the artificially imposed quotas, the arbitrary quotas -I will not take exc~ption to them here because I am not a biologist or otherwise an expert who can advise on what ought to be 71.27

~fay 11,1977 Tape 2558 (Afternoon) AH-2 ~,IR. S D-f"10NS : the appropriate quotas. I aan only talk in terms of the impact of those quotas-and the impact of the quotas last year, this year and the next year or so are severe, severe economically, They are having a drast_ic frightful affect on the pocketbooks of the plant workers in Burp:eo and Ramea, and the other nlants I have not mentioned but ~.;hich are situated along the coast,and on the pocketbooks of the trawler-men and the in-shore men who prosecute the fishery along that coast. But in the long-term, Hr.

Speaker, in the long-term the evidence .~s ther~. that the stocks ar~ . g~ing to be more than adequate to . .. : t: support not only the fishery on its present scale but a much expanded fishery - a much expanded fishery,and hence the need, ~fr. Speaker, to give attention to how we go about exnanding that fishery; hence the need for bringing together all the minds and hearts that are concerned about this vital issue. I have mentioned that about 2S,non - at least 2S,nnn people- prosecute the fishery either in the catching phase or in the handling and processing phase.

I could point out that there is 130 fish plants in this Province~ 130 fish Plants, large and small around this Island and in Labrador, 130 plants providing direct employment in the communities concerned,processing our product, adding value to the product before it is shipped out of the Province. That is an important consideration in any plan for the future of the fishery; To see that not only is the fish cauP.:ht - not only are we the he\o·ers of Hood and the dra~vers of water-hut that in addition to catching the fish that we have a hand, a direct hand in improving the value of the fish.

And right now a fair amount of the value of the fish is being added at the American stage in the New England states. To a degree . that 1vill always be the case because 've are always at the beck and call of the market,and if the market says that it wants the fish at a particular stage of its processing then we have to make the hard 7:128

~a y 11,1977 Tape 2558 (Afternoon) AH-3 decision always as to whether we will supply it at that stage of ~recessing or whether 'l\7 e ~dll look else~.rhere for the ·market. I am encouraged by comments I have heard in recent months that we are looking to Europe for markets because I understand again that the potential for marketing a more fi~ished product~ ... · ..... ·.· 7129

May 11, 1977 Tape 2559 JM - 1 HR. SIM10NS: a product which is further along the stage of being finished, the potential for doing that in Europe is better than it has been in the United States where t-hey insist on getting the fish at an essentially raw stage and then getting involved themselves in the labour intensive part of the operation. Mr. Speaker, I was in the process a moment ago~ before I got off on a tangent there,talking about the physical facilities and the extent of the fishery in terms of equipment and facilities. I mentioned we have 130 fish plants. We have eighty trawlers prosecuting the fishery.

We have about 600 longliners, 600 of them around this Province pursuing the fisliery, and in addition to the eighty tra~vlers and the 600 longliners I understand there is more than 8,000 small, open boats, the eighteen, twenty, twenty-two, twenty-four foot boat, 8,000 boats under thirty-five feet in length also prosecuting the fishery; which brings me to one of the observations I \...rant to make about the fishery and it is an observation of a layman when it comes to fishing.

I am not by background a fisherman though my family on both sides has a long tradition in "the fishery directly but there are many men in this House who have a much more direct assocation with the fishery than I do. And so I stand to be corrected on the observation I am about to make. Many men here in this House, my friend from Fogo is among them, a gentleman who knows the fishery inside out and he is just one of many that I could name in this House. Mr. Speaker, one of the big problems in getting into the fishery these days is the tremendous capital cost.

And bearing in mind that by and large the person who is getting into the fishery is not often a person who is necessarily formerly well educated - he does not need to be a college gr_aduate, for example-- bearing that in mind the fishermari~while very skilled at the fishery,tends to have a fair amount of difficulty getting through the red tape and that is no comment on any lack of intelligence. That is more an inditement of the amount of red tape involved. The CBC programme Countrv Canada last Sunday 7130

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2559 JE - 2 HP... S U.!NONS : aired what I believe was a rather good programme on a community in my district, the community of Gray River . It was called Incident at Gray River. It was a half hour show which I believe basically demonstrated the attempts ?f the people of Gray River to get productively involved in job opportunities. And the film at one point pursued the possibilities for these people in the · fisheey and our own Mini ster of Fisheries was interviewed on the programme.

And I say this not to criticize but to demonstrate how we can overlook th~ . ess.enti:al probl~m ·· that· ·these men face. I- believe that the· minister by and large was quite helpful in his comments on the programme. But at one point he found himself saying;'Any young man who wants to get into the fishery . 7131.

May 11, 1977 Tape 2560 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: can do so, Of course, he will need a couple of years experience~' "Any young man who wants to get into the fishery can do so. Of course he will need a couple of years experience.'' And he went on to say"to qualify for programmes." And that is the bind. That is the bind.

And I say to him and to his department that as much as I can appreicate the need for copper-fastening loan agreements to ensure that they are being given to the right people and so on, ~. s much as that need is there, there is an .. equal need or a greater need . to make. sure there is an avenue for the young men who have not a couple of years experience, who have no experience in the fishery, to get into it; there must be an avenue for those people to get in, and that is the people who are on the film from Grey River, and in the dozens of other Grey Rivers around this Province. Men who have no experience.

Take the Grey River people,because I think they are symptomatic of people in many other communities in this province. Grey River people a number of years ago were disoriented from the fishery for two reasons; one·, was a physical reason - now just keep in mind the geography, · Grey River is smack in the middle of a number of fishing communities. Grey River there to the East, Francois, and McCallum, to the West, Ramea and Burgee, and LaPoile and Grand Bruit and then on up to Rose Blanche and the other communities and into Port aux Basques. MR. NEARY: Petites, Rose BJ.anche, MR.

SIMMONS: Petites and Rose Blanche and Isle au Morts and Burnt Island - MR. NEARY: Fox Roost, Margaree. MR. SIMMONS: Fox Roost, Margaree. MR. SMALLWOOD: These two Southwest Coasters are now monopolizing all the attention of this House. MR. SIMMONS: Which demonstrates once again where the future of this 7:132 ·-

May 11, 1977. Tape 2560 RH - 2 MR.. SIMMONS : Province lies. MR. NEARY: On the Southwest Coast. MR. SU1~-10NS: Mr. Speaker., Grey River is smack in the middle of . a group of communities which have a long tradition of fishing. And the question is often asked.~y is Grey River with forty-five families, sixty-six men in that community, why does it have only four men who are prosecuting -in the fisheri? There are two answers.

Before the Bay d 'Espoir generating station went onstream, and therefore be for~ the ' head , ~~-t~-~~-·- · b~hfnd Bay. d ,·Espoi.r we~e d~ed off to serve as a reservoir for Bay d'Espoir generating station, the run-off through Grey River into the ocean where the community of Grey River is located, the run-off there -was so great in terms of daily volumn of water that it had the effect of creating quite a turbulent water in the harbour of Grey River and in the mouth of the harbour between the community out to the ocean access itself.

That run-off was great enough that it affected, particularly in times~of high winds or tides or in stormy weather, affected the safety of the entry and exit to and from t~at particular harbour so that it was not practical on a day to day bas{s, particularly in the Winter months, for those men to become invoived in the fishery although the fishery was all around them. So as a result you had some involvement on a seasonal basis. And they turned instead to the forests. So they became quite well known for their logging activities and for their sawmilling.

Indeed at one point I think there was a sawmill in Grey River which used to employ twelve men year round and which would ship the logs all over the Coast. So their industry was logging. And then came the period of the tungsten mine in Grey River. And so for a period a number of the men there, who otherwise would have been fishing or logging,got disoriented again towards a mining economy. Of course that mine closed fairly soon. And now we have in Grey River sixty-six men altogether, some of whom fish, 7133

. . . . May 11, 1977. 'Jape 2560 RH- 3 MR. SIMMONS: only six of whom, Mr. Speaker, only six of whom are On-welfare in Grey River despit~ opinions to the contrary. I have heard people make comments about Grey River and the implication of the comments is that Grey River is a welfare community. That is not the case. Only six people in Grey River at this moment,or as of a week ago are on welfare, or six families I should say, six families • .• . -4:4.:- ~· -: .• • ":- • ' . . . 7134 I .' • • -· . -;;:::

May 11, 1977 Tape 2561 lb-1. MR.. SIMMONS : Of the other sixty men, six of them are in the - four of them are in the fishery, "that is the inshore fishery, eight of. them work on trawlers, a couple of them work with Hydro looking after the diesel plant there. But for the most part the men are not employed.on any continuing basis. I believe the time is _r:£.pe for that community, and I use Grey River as just the example.of many such communities, the time is ripe for that community to be given a particular , .introduction to . the fishery~ · "'' . . . . .. · .. •· . '· ·· ........ .

I o~y wish the ~inister of Fisheries were here. I think he and I share a view on this particular subject. ·I have stated this view to him and I shall have the opportunity to do so again. But I would like to see some particular emphasis given to trying to involve the Grey River type community in the fishery. I do not mean pushing them into it. But I mean some encouragement. I mean some financial encouragement. I did not say give-aways or hand-outs or grants but I mean the adaptation of programmes ~hich will make them eligible for Grey River people. Now, again let me go back to the statement that the minister made.

The minister made this statement: Any young man who wants to get into the fishery can do so.provided be has a couple of years experience. Now if that is.·the criteria for applyin~ for the programmes in the minister's department of course these people in Grey River will never get into the fishery because they do not have the two ,years experience he is talking about, which are apparently a requirement of getting in. Their plight is repeated many many times around this province. Mr. Speaker, that is one of the things I want to say. It is not directly on joint ventures.

I have a comment on Joint ventures which I would like to come to in a moment. But I believe if we are going to take full advantage of the inshore possibilities of the fishery in the years ahead~ we have to, on a one by one basis in a systematic way .- Grey River today, some 7135

May 11' 1977 Tape 2561 lb-2. MR. SIMMONS: other community tomorrow - we have to go to them all and say how can we help some of the men in that ~ community get into the fishery. Not, Mr. Speaker, why does he not qualify? or -if he does not qualify- it is fair to ask that question, why does he not qualify, as long as somebody then asks the question, how can we find the programme for which he does qualify?

A2ain, I repeat, not a handout, not a give away, not even a grant, but a programme which is adapted to hi~ parti~ular concern, the particular : . ;. . ·. . . . . . . .. ,•' ··: . . . ~ . ; \ • .• . . · . nature of his problem. . Because as the programme stands now, as great as they spund in election propaganda, as great as they sound announce that great fisheries conferences,they have no meaning for the fellow in Grey River who is sick and tired of doing nothing and would like to get into the fishery. Mr.

Speaker, the people cifi Grey River,like so many around this province,are seeing the fishery as much more attractive an option than was the case in years before. It was the Minister of Fisheries,again ~n the television programme on Sunday,who said that there was a time when you were threatened with the fishery - if you do not do well in school~ If you do not pass Grade Vli, you will be a fishermen like your father. Of course,that is no longer a threat. For many people it is a -:r promise. It is a promise. It is a promise of an economically sound job. A job,a career, a profession, which has a future to it. Mr.

Speaker, just a few words on the joint venture. The Evening Teiegram a while ago, I think it was a month ago, April 14, published an editorial which said in part, "If the Moores Government has any kind of clear policy for the Newfoundland fishery- Excuse me. Would the -hon. member allow -me to clarify a pointf ·- -. -- - --- . -- 71.36 '

May 11, 1977 ~. S IM~MONS : ~-· H. CARTER: Tape 2562 PT - 1 nh, sure, ~y all means, yes, Sir. It is alHays nice to sha!>e the back to bear the burden. He have the !_lleans of assisting the people in one area ~.nth their problem and naturally we will· heln the neople Hith the other one. But he talked about assistance to fishermen and the fact that thev had to have tt-ro years exnerience.

I should inform the House that we have made some changes in that policy, and while initially we thoupht that a nerson applying for a loan should have !T'aybe two years exuerience, we have now changed the policy where if in the oninion nf the· Loan Board and ~ve must have some-criteria ·- that person has ~vhat it takes to he a success in the fishery, then t·re will assist that nerson. ~-· S~0~TS: ~{R. H. CARTER: That is good! That announcement should be made shortly. The decision has already been M.ade to change the ;"~Olicy, and the fishermen will he advised accordingly.

Grey River, I think, is an excellent exam.-ole of where that kind of an approach would be necessary. But certainly we are nrepared, ~fr. Speaker, to make assistance available to neoT'le who Hant to get into tfie fisherv :!nd that the two-year neriod Hill not be recmired - nmv un to a certain extent. r,re are not poing to give a young fellow, nineteen, $200,000 to buy a longliner. It T.rould not be fair to him or to the - '-fF. • NEA ttY : learn how to fish. MR • 1.J. CARTER: Fe shonld go to the College of F~_sheries and That is right.

But, certainly, we will advance assistance up to a certain amount, all things being eoual, to peonle who want to get into the industry ~vithout the ~)reviously stated two­ years experience. S0HE HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! 'MB.. S I}-1}-fONS : Mr. Sneaker, that is what I call action. That is lvhat I call real action. }~ • SH.ALU700D : This is the result of the speech of the last ten minutes? 7137

Hay 11, 1977 Tape 2562 RT-2 HR. STI~·!ONS: Actually, I hope it is the result of that particular program" because the program,for those who did not see it, I thought was quite a good adult education process and it was not particularly critical of anybody in . the Goverrr2~1t, or anybody else. ~fuat it did do was it offered an o~tion for some peo~le.

I thank the Minister for his intervention because, as I said~and I am sure he heard me downstairs or wherever he was, the Minister's participation in the program was so positive that I was not even wanting to introduce the sentence, and I was not doing it at all in criticism . . . J:t .. pointed up. the · _ano.maly ,.,. the . p~oblem,. the · ~iC:!J.~.fo~_of.E!le_s_~ people ___ ... are often caught with, and not only in fishing but in others vihere you Halk in to look for "a joh, you have all the paper credentials, and the next auestion is 1 . How much experience do you have? And it is hitting so many people.

Like buddy said, 'Row can you get exnerience if you have not got any? 1 Hmv can you have experience if you cannot get it? In the case of Grey River, the Hinister 1 s ne•,r policy is a good one because it will cater to that particular need. HoH completely it answers the need is more up to the comm.unity than up to the :Unister. The }1inister can only anticipate \-lhat the need may be and then attempt to cater to it. ;rn.. Tj[. CARTER: }!I'. S IH~IONS : Right. I quite agree. Mr.

Speaker, at the moment the Minister interjected I was about to get on to something else that is of deep concern to me hecause it has a relation to the Joint Venture question. I was reading from an editorial in The Evenin~ Telegram of April 14th, and the first sentence says, 'If the Moores' Government has any k~d of clear policy for the Newfoundland Fishery it is a closely guarded secret'. 1 It is a closely guarded secret. 1 AN HON. MEMBER: What is that? MR. SIMMONS: That is The Evening Telegram editorial of April 14th. 7138 ·:r

:1ay 11' 1977 Tape 25·62 RT- 3 AN RON. MEMBER: Hho wrote i"t? ~ . SIN~·10NS : I do not knmv who the ·author was but we can guess lvho the author was. 'I~ they have any policy it is a closely - MR.. lV. CARTER: Was slende~. tender and bone involved? ~ . SIMMONS : 'If they have any policy it is a closely . . guarded secret'. Now, Mr. Speaker, at best, at best that statement says that if the government has a policy it is not being As a member who sits in this particular House I have to say that if there is a policy I have not heard about it either. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let us clarify it because we are a very sensitive people, we here in Nel-lfoundland, very sensitive. I am not suggesting the minister is any more a less sensitive than the rest of us, _but as a group we are a very sensitive people. And we often do not hear lmat is being said because we are too interested in who says it. And I am sitting in Opposition to the minister and -~ 7139

May 11, 1977 Tape 2563 .Df - 1 Ml? .• SIMMONS: the fact that I point out this statement may mean that somehow I have some malicious motive in mind today. Mr. Speaker, nobody will fault this minister for being the most active minister that I can recall having occupied the position of fisheries in this Province. SOHE RON. MEMBERS: Hear, _hear! MR. SIMMONS: And I say again,active is not a loaded term in that context, active in a positive sense. I mean that.

This minister,in my .view,. from my _observations.,and I see: .him from a distance,if you like, I am not in his department obviously, but he has obviously decided that he is going to attempt to do what has to be done and nobody can fault him for that. Indeed you must commend him for that. And wherever I have gotten the opportunity to say not only nice things about the minister but I hope helpful things I have said so. But the minister is facing the same problem, Hr. Speaker, and it is not particularily his problem except in a de facto way, he is facing the same problem that a predecessor of his faced, Hr.

Roy Cheeseman, the gentleman ~vhom I succeeded as the member for Hermitage. And you remember that Roy Cheeseman was appointed·. to Cabinet as the !·!inister of Fisheries in Harch 1972 and he resigned from Cabinet and from the House in Harch 1973 and he kept quite silent on why he had resigned from Harch 1973 right through that summer and into the fall~ and then the Hermitage by-election was called. During the Hermitage by-election, for wtatever reason you can speculate yourself,but during that by-election the open line show in the radio station in Grand Bank invited Mr.

Cheeseman to go on the air .actually during the by-election. Indeed I think it was the Thursday before the by-election was run on the Monday. Y.R. NlURY! MR. SI}1MONS: He wanted to get revenge against the - That may be. As I say I am not going to assign motives. I do not know why. I'Iy friend with his usually good sources obviously knows why. The fact is that 1-fr. Cheeseman was asked a question, why did you leave, __ why did you resign? It was a question he has been asked 714