Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 49 (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-49

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 49 - 1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, MA y 23, 1991 Printed by the Office of the OU68ns Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal ; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guiz ar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Ger ry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-L EIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann CONSTITU ENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charl eswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 23, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PRO CEEDINGS Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Victory School thir ty-seven Grades 4 and 5 students, and they are under the direction of Pat Plohman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Le is). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. *** Hon.

Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House, I wonder if we might revert to Introduction of Bills. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave to revert to Introduction of Bills? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave? Agreed. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii 59-The Workers Compensation and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would move on behalf of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), that Bill 59, The Workers Com pensation Amendment and Consequential Amendme nts Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les accidents du travail et diverses dispositions legislatives, be introduced and thatthe same be now received and read a first time. The honourable Administrator of the Gov ernment of Manitoba, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Mr. Speaker, I have tabled his message. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Immigration Consultants Investigation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, on May 15 , 19 90, the Premier stated in establishing a multiculturalism minister: Manitoba has been a land of opportunit y for many people, and it must become a land of opportunity for all people, and it will. The Premier further, in the election, made a number of commitme nts dealing with new immigrants to the province, and immigration policy generally, and stated that new Canadians must be able to take full advantage of the opportunities that Manitoba has to offer.

Last night, in a television documentary, there was striking evidence that immigration consultants were working in the province of Manitoba and preying on perhaps the most vulnerable people, either in the province or people who want to come to Canada, charging fees, making certain commitments that were unfulfilled and leaving Manitoba families at the airport with deportati ons, leaving Manitoba families with new immigrants of their families without the proper papers in terms of being a Canadian citizen and really preying on people who are so vulnerable that I think all of us should take action in this regard.

I would ask the Premier, whether in light of this documentary last night, his government will be investigating fully the practice of immigration consultants in the province of Manitoba and their activity in terms of immigration for the people of Manitoba? * (1 335) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might say that the words I said in May of 19 90 are words that I subscribe to, and I believe this province has been a land of opportunity for immigrants. I know it was for my own father. I know it ought to continue to be in the fut ure.

I believe, as has been said, that Manitoba should attempt to enter into an agreement with Ottawa whereby we can be involved in the immigration procedure to ensure that independent immigrants

2407 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 with skills that are needed to fulfil! skill shortages in this province ought to come here. That was an area that there was support from the western Premiers at the recent conference in Nipawin last week. A communique was issued to that effect. I, too, was very disturbed at watching that report and at the great sadness and the great anxiety that prevailed in families who were the victims of the immigration consulting that was referred to.

I have asked my senior staff to investigate what areas might be involved with the provincial government and to ensure that we do whatever we can to clean up what I think is a bad situation. I might say, for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition, that the RCMP have issued a news release today indicating their investigation of the matter. I know the Attorney General {Mr. McCrae) will want to keep informed of that and see whether there is room for provincial co-ope ration and involvement. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we are pleased that the Premier has instructed senior staff to review the situation.

However, wewouldwantandwe thinkthe public interest would be best served by an independent investigation in terms of the provincial responsibilities in this matter and how this situation exists in our borders, in our province and in our communities. In the minister's own departmen tal Estimates, he talks about the goals and objectives of having humanitarian immigration policies in this province, in our provincial Estimates. We further talk about the need for objectives to co-ordinate and deliver services to immigration policies in the province.

Clearly, it is a responsibility that is joint with the federal and provincial governments but certainly under the bailiwick and responsibility of ministers in this department.

I would ask the Premier, in light of the fact that some of the people mentioned or alleged to have been involved in the story are senior civil servants of the government, whether we would be better served with an independent investigation to ensure that we can take all action necessary to stop what most Manitobans would find to be an unsavoury and dishonourable practice of preying on people who are so vulnerable within our borders? • (1 340) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, clearly, I do not think anyone would sugges t that there will be any investigation more independent than that which the RCMP will be conducting.

The RCMP will be looking at all areas of law, whether they be criminal or immigration or other areas of law, and I am confident that whatever comes from that investigation will be pursued to the fulles t extent possible under the law. I believe that is absolutely the way that it should be, any possibility to investigate and pursue the outcome of this matter to try and eradicate this kind of action within our borders. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I respect the fact that there are potential criminal elements to the documentary last evening. There are also humanitarian and ethical issues involved in this issue.

There are issues of senior civil servants of the Province of Manitoba, civil servants who are well known to the Premier, who have been involved potentially in this immigration consultant area. There are the letters of the law in terms of The Civil Service Act. There are the issues of whether those people disclosed under The Civil Service Act fully their involvement, disclosed airline tickets that may have been given to them, the issues of whether they in fact used government titles which are very important in foreign lands in any of this activity, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Premier, will he go further than just the RCMP investigation which we believe is necessary to deal with the criminal activity? Will he look at the ethical and humanitarian issues that are part of his own government department's mandate and objectives, so that Manitobans can know that we are first and foremost a humanitarian province, and a humanitarian province does not tolerate people preying on innocent immigrants and people who want to immigrate to our great province? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, there is no question that we want to investigate any areas of humanitarian and ethical involvement.

We obviously want to investigate all areas in which our provincial laws and our provincial accountability are implied, whether that be through The Civil Service Act, whether that be through conflict of interest act, whether that be through The Consumer Protection Act or anything else, all areas in which the provincial Civil Service and/or government departments could potentially be implicated . That is why I have asked senior staff to get together, for instance, with the Civil Service

May 23, 1991 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA 2408 Commission, so that all of these areas can be canvassed to see where there is a potential imp lication or involv emen t of the provincial government. seniors RentalStart Program Information Release Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, last year the Premier campaigned on a theme of "trust me." Now this same Premier defends the Minister of Housing who continually misleads the House and betrays the trus t of the people of Manitoba.

Will the Minister of Housing explain why MHRC staff were not all owed to tell all the Seniors RentalStart applicants, not just Roy Lev and Rotary Pines who were informed by the minister, that funding was available in February of this year? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): I am advised, Mr. Speaker, by the staff that no such order existed. No one was told not to speak to anyone. Mr. Martindale: It is most unfortuna te that he contradicts his own staff, Mr. Speaker. Neepawa Appllcatlon Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Why did the Minister of Housing receive phone inquiries and have meetings in his office with representatives of Neepawa Elks Lodge and not tell them that funding for Seniors Rental Start was available as he did with Rotary Pines? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I reject tota lly the all egation that I spoke to anyone with respect to Rotary Pines. That is not a fact. With regar d to the question of the Neepawa Elks, they wrote me a letter on February 27 that came to my attention on the 13 th of March. At that time, I acknowledged the letter.

The letter requested a meeting to discuss a senior citizens project in Neepawa, no mention of any program one way or another. Mr. Speaker, at that time, we arranged a meeting. Because I was in Treasury Board Estimates in prepa ration of the budget, I had lim ited time available to meet. We did meet on April 5, 19 91 . Mr. Martlndale: Mr. Speaker, that is not what the technical resource group says, and we will never believe that it was strictly coincidence that on February 11 Rotary Pines applied for this fund ing. Minister of Housing Apology Request Mr.

Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Housing apologize now to the House and to the technical resource groups, since he said on May 15 that funding was available in the de partment when, clearly, it was not, and that it was the fault of the technical resource groups for not reapplying, when in fact he had no intention of telling them that fund ing was available? One of them inquired and met with the minister in his office. Mr. Speaker: Or der, please. The question has been put. * (1 345) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, I met with the people from Neepawa on April 5.

April 5 is five da ys after the end of the fiscal year and about 11 da ys prior to the budget being tabled in the House. At that time, I indicated to the people from Neepawa who attended , and my colleague the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) was there as well, along with a do zen or so people from Neepawa, in fact, that we could not indicate whether the program would be renewed in 19 91 -92 and that we would have to wait the tabling of the budget. Claro Paqueo Notary Publlc Status Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkste r): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

We were alarmed to learn about the alleged misleading of immigrants by Mr. Claro Paqueo, which took place under the guise of his status as a limited notary public. We have learned that Mr. Paqueo received his notary public in 19 83. In 19 85, he was convicted of violating the Immigration Act. Given that his business was associated with immigration, surely it was incumbent upon the Consumer and Corporate Affairs to investigate the matter and to take it into consid eration upo n application of his notary status.

Can the minister advise the House as to why this individual was granted a renewal of his notary public status in spite of the fact that he had a conviction?

2409 LE GI SLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 Point of Order Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I caught the full question. If the member is asking a member of this Treasury Bench to give rationale as to why a decision was made in 19 85, I say the question is highly out of order. Beauchesne makes several references as to the requirement of a minister and as to what time frame they have to make reference. Mr. Speaker, the question is certainly out of order. Mr. Lamoureux: On the same point of order, this administration does have responsibility.

Because it is a limited notary, they have to apply every two years. This one expires in September of '91 , which tells me that he would have received another one in September of '89 which would have been after the '85 conviction. I would ask the minister as to why something of this nature would be able to go through? Mr. Speaker: Or der, please. On the point of order raised, the honourable government House leader did not have a point of order. *** Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I do not have that information available at this moment, but I will check with dep artment officials to ascertain the various details of this case. If I have anything that needs to be reported back to the House, I will do so. Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the same minister, can the minister tell the House what steps she has taken, if any, to ensure that background checks, which woul d unc ove r convictions, wil l be undertaken when the renewal is unde r process? Mrs. Mcintosh: With regard to this particular case, I did not see the 1-T earn report last night because I was busy with other meetings of my own.

I have heard about it, of course, this morning, will be very pleased to check out any relevant details with my de partment and to come back with the reporting of the procedures that are followed in my department, as a matter of course, in terms of investigating renewals of licences or other aspects that are required by law. Claro Paqueo Marriage Commissioner Status Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I would ask the Minister of Family Services, in addition to being a notary, he is also a marriage commissioner, a licence he received in March of 19 90; can the minister tell us what revocation proced ures are in place in his dep artment to ensure that those who misuse their position are prevented from doing so in the future? * (1 350) Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I will check into the details of that and report back to the member. Mental Health Care Rural Services Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): My question is to the Minister of Health.

Last June the Minister of Health met with the Swan River

chapter of the Canadian Mental Health Association at which time he indicated he was very committed to improving mental health services in rural Manitoba. However, these people are very concer ned at the present time wi th the announcement of the budget and the fact that there is an increased funding for institutional beds, and there is no action in increasing mental health services in rural Manitoba. When is the Minister of Health going to be in touch with these people in the Swan River area and the Parkland area, and when can we see improvement to the mental health services in rural Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend , if she would wish to be part of the reform of the mental health system, that opportunity will be made available to her and to other members of the official opposition. Let me first of all indicate to my honourable friend that the group that probably she has been in contact with in the Swan River valley are part of the first regional mental health council that was established in the province, representing the Parkland Region of the province.

That is a very diverse group of individuals who are providing to government an examination of where the mental health service deli very system ou ght to go. They are not mandated to simply indicate to government how we should spend additional resources, but rather to

May 23, 1991 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2410 indicate to government a more effective use of the current budget dedicated to mental health services in the province of Manitoba. I believe that they have some excellent contribution to make in the future, as they have already as a council. Mr.

Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend that, in the course of this budget year, my honourable friend will have ample opportunity to join in with government and those who wish to see reform in the mental health system and a very progressive reform of the services we provide to those citizens in Manitoba who are in need of mental health services. Ms. Wowchuk: I would also li ke to tell my honourable friend that I am very interested in mental health services, and I have been in contact with the people in Swan River. Mental Health Care Facllltles Parkland Region Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Will the Minister of Housing tell this House the status of the application subm itted by the Parkland advisory council to have a housing project set up in the area? What is the status of this appl ication? When can we expect to have some housing in the Parkland area? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I was involved in a conversation here, and I missed the member's question. Would she please repeat it? Ms. Wowchuk: Just the question?

Will the Minister of Housing tell this House the status of the application for the interim housing project that was submitted by the Parkland advisory council to get a housing project for the mentally handicapped in the Parkland area? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, that appl ication was submitted under the special projects division, I believe, for the 19 91 proposal call. Those matters are under consider ati on at the mome nt. We anticipate making a decision within the next month or two. Ms. Wowchuk: I await that answer. Mental Health Care Facllltles Parkland Region Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Since the Minister of Health has given these people assurances that there will be housing, can the Minister of Health also assure the people of the Parkland area that there will be adequate staffing with this housing, so that people in the rural area can finally have true com munity-based mental health service? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): You know, Mr. Speaker, if only the NOP, when they were in government, had had such advocates for reform ing the mental health system, they might have done something in 14 of the last 20 years that they governed this province. Mr.

Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend that we have-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): I hesitate to rise once again, in response to a question and an answer by the Minister of Health, to point out that Beauchesne says that answers should be brief and relate to the matter raised and should not lead to debate. Mr. Speaker. the so-called answer of the minister was clearly lending itself to debate. The member for Swan River asked a very straightforward question. We expect a straightforward answer, yes or no, from the minister.

I think that is only reasonable, and those are our rules as well. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member did ask a straightforward question after a long

preamble. Beauchesne's 409.(1 ) says on the questivli, • ... qu estion, not an expr ession of an opi nion, representation, argumentation, nor debate. " The member, who two questions ago provided a straight question, fell back into her old ways in the last question, provided a question with a long

preamble engaging in debate. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would remind all honour ab le ministers, answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. *** * (1 355) Mr. Orcha rd: Mr. Speaker, in answer to my honourable friend the member for Swan River, I just simply want to say to my honourable friend from

2411 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 Swan River that she ought to consult with my ho nourable foe from Thompson, who has in Thompson, under the initiative of this government, a community mental health residence, the first one in northern Manitoba under the initiative of mental health reform by this governme nt, staffe d adequa te ly , supply ing servi ces ne eded in Thompson and northern Manitoba as an objective of health care reform in the Mental Health Services delivery area that this government started and will continue to work with. Point of Order Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, on the previous point of order- Mr. Speaker: On the point of order, there was no point of order. Ms. Wowchuk: The Minister of Finance-pardon me? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River, on a new point of order. Ms. Wowchuk: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) indicated that I use too much

preamble. If he will check Hansard, on my third question, I did not have any

preamble. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River did not have a point of order. Anlclnabe Housing Corporation Government Involvement Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): With a short

preamble, Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Housing, at my request, met with the new board of Anicinabe Housing Corp. of Dauphin. I appreciate the fact that the minister met with that group. There has been, as he knows, a great deal of turmoil at the corporation over the last several months and allegations of improper maintenance of homes, patronage, mishandling of financial affairs and so on, Mr. Speaker. Because of this, the membership held an annual meeting and elected a new board recently.

Can the minister indicate, after his meeting yesterday, whether his government recognizes the new board as the legitimate and legal board of the Anicinabe Housing Corp., and further, could he also indicate the degree of financial and administrative involvemen t that his dep artm ent has in the Anicinabe Housing Corp? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the Anicinabe Housing Corp. in Dauphin is a private, nonprofit housing corporation. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation have been involved with the financing of the project. Mr.

Speaker, this agreement, entered into in about 19 86, left a number of gray areas in terms of who has responsibility ultimately, in terms of adm inistration of the project, should it get into difficulty. The situati on is un der review by Canada Mortgage an d Housin g Corporation and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation as to dete rm ine, in effect, what righ ts we as corporations-funding agencies to this private corporation have, and we are in the process of attempting to determine exactly what rights we have and what rights we do not have. In terms of the recognition of one board or another board, Mr.

Speaker, it is a matter of law. I indicated to the people I met with yesterday that it is a matter of law and will have to be determined in the due process of law. Investigation Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister has acknowledged a substantial investment of provincial dollars-as a matter of fact, I understand it is some $1 00,000, although he did not say that here today-and in view of the fact that the minister did not initiate an investigation by his department of the allegations that were brought before him yesterday and the supporting evidence, and now that he has had an op por tuni ty to review those alle gations and sup porting evidence, can the minister indicate whether he is now prepared to initiate an extensive investigation audit to determine the validity of those alle gations so that the cloud can be lifted from the board, and they can start dealing with the legitimate concerns of the tenants? * (1 400) Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, we have certainly a great concern over the tenants and the fact that, based on allegations made-I have not seen the project myself-th ere are considerable repairs required and things of that nature.

May 23, 1991 LE GI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2412 Mr. Speaker, it is incorrect to say an investigation has not been launched. It was launched long ago, within the last two or three weeks, when this matter came to our attention. Our concern is that we cannot act if we do not have legal status, and we are not certain, because of the way the agreements were originally wr itten, as to whether we have appropriate legal status or not. That matter is under investigation. We are not alone in this situation.

Cana da Mortgage and Housing Corporation has an interest four or five times larger than our own in this project. We have to first determine what our legal rights are, what we can in fact do and cannot do. Then from that point, we will take appropri ate action to try and resolve this issue as quickly as possible. Mr. Plohman: The minister should know that this is not a project. This deals with 71 units spread throughout Dauphin that are in bad need of repair. Anlclnabe Housing Corporation Board Status Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): In view of the fact that the minister does not seem to know the legal statu s, I would ask his colleague the minister responsible for Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) that, since she has received-and she is not listening, Mr. Speaker -( interjection)- Well, I am trying to assist her, so I do not have to repeat it later on.

In view of the fact that the minister's Corpo rations Branch has received official notice of change of the board on April 25, 19 91 , and in view of the fact that she knows that the previous board was not legally constituted, could the minister responsi ble for Corporate Affairs today clarify the legal status of the board that was elected recently and which was recently incorporated by her department? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I must apologize in that I was in conversation at the beginning of the member's question, and I would appreciate it if he could tell me again which board it is he is referring to. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Spe aker, I appreci ate this opportunity. The House leader for the government side groaned when I wanted to get the attention -( interjection)- I can see why. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have recognized the honourable member for Dauphin to clarify his question for the honourable minister. Mr.

Plohman: Yes, for the minister of Corporate Affairs' edification, this is the board of the Anicinabe Housing Corp. which sent in official notice of change of the board. It was received April 25, 19 91 , by her Corporations Branch. What is the legal status of that corporation? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and report back to the member at the next Question Period. Manitoba Telephone System Oz Pedde Contract Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the First Minister.

Having said on Tuesday, quote: Unless you can prove otherwise, you are going to have to take my word for it. Then changing his mind in providing the salary level of MTS President, Oz Pedde, after staff obviously made him aware of the arrogance of his statement, the First Minister has now added to his dismal ignorance of senior corporate operations by stating that the benefits package would not be disclosed because it is, quote: details and trivia. Will the First Minister today table the agreement with the new president of the Manitoba Telephone System, complete with the detail and trivia? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if I wanted to learn about arrogance, I would not have to ask staff. I would just come and listen to the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs). I said before that the information with respect to contracts of senior officials, within various Crown corporations, we will be happy to reveal levels of compensation. We can also assure the public that there are no aspects of the agreements which would contravene normal practices.

The other aspects of it that have to do with severance arrangements, that have to do with holidays and pension arrangements and everything else are all part and parcel of the guideli nes that we have set for all. We will not contravene guidelines. We will not give anyone severance arrang ements that exceed the standards that we have set. I might tell you that one of the things that the New Democrats did when they brought in people to run

2413 LEG ISLATIV E ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 Cr own corporations was to give a two-year severance to the CEO of Manitoba Hydro, two-year severance. They gave to the head of Manfor, memberships in a golf club in Montreal, all of those, memberships to a golf course in Montreal- these are the kinds of things. We have said we have put limits on what they could do, and they have to be within the ordinary norms. If a person does not want to join the pension plan, we can ar range for that by lieu of the agr eem ent.

We can also ar range for the severances, all that are within agreement within the normal standards that we set, and we are not going to violate those standards. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, the only one who knows what is normal is the Premier because he will not di vulg e the info rmati on. Included in the so-called details and trivia of many senior corporate executives are such things as car allo wance, pension benefits, enhancement on pension benefits for seni or ex ecuti ves, insur ance bene fits, severance benefits, club memberships, holiday benefits, housing allowances.

Would the minister tell us today just which ones of these things, which can amount anywhere from 10 to 1 00 percent of salary, are to be given to Mr. Pedde? Mr. Fllmon: Of all of those things that the member has referred to, I am not aware of ones that are there in that contract, so I will investigate the matter and report back. Premier of Manitoba Apology Request Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Yesterday, the Premier also said that, in order to get the best, you have to pay for it.

As a result, he obviously indicated that every civil servant in the province, because they are only entitled, according to the Finance minister, from zero percent to 2 percent, is not the best. Would he now like to apologize to the Civil Service of the Province of Manitoba in that his statement that you only get what you pay for quite frankly is not in keeping with the statements of his Finance minister? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have to say, with the greatest of respect to my honourable friend, that is the most insensitive garbage I have ever heard.

I have said that we value very highly the services of the civil servants of Manitoba, and we have- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister, to finish his response. * (14 10 ) Mr. Fllmon: There are salary ranges for every single position within the public service of Manitoba. As I said right from Day One, Mr. Pedde is paid within the salary range that is allocated for the heads of our Crown corporations. That is exactly what happened, Mr. Speaker.

Despite the challenge, despite the innuendo, despite the suggestion of the Leader of the third party, all of that is accurate. Mr. Pedde is paid within the range. Every other public servant is paid within a range that is negotiated by their union on their behalf or in their public service position when they are hired. There is a range for deputy ministers. They are not all paid exactly the same. There is a range for assistant deputy ministers. They are not all paid exactly the same. There is a range for special assistants. They are not all paid exactly the same. Mr.

Pedde is paid within his range, and every other public servant is paid within their range. We value very highly the contributions that are made by the public servants of Manitoba. School of Psychiatric Nursing Selklrk Closure Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I have asked the Minister of Health repeatedly in this House and in the letter I sent to him almost three weeks ago to provide an explanation for his decision to close the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Selkirk. In addition, the town of Selkirk mental health organ izations and students have requested the same.

So far, no one has received a suitable answer from this minister. Will he now table in this House an explanation for his decision and the groups he consulted with prior to closing this school? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has been bringing up, on occasion, the issue of the consolidation of the two schools of psychiatric nursing into one located at Brandon. I realize my honourable friend may find that decision difficult in his community, and I respect

May 23, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2414 that. There is concern from the council of Selkirk about the move. Those decisions are never taken lightl y. I reiterate to my honourable friend that the goals we are seeking to achieve with psychiatric nursing as a profession in a reformed mental health system are much to the betterment of that profession, its training opportunities and its service delivery opportunities. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot tell my honourable friend what the registered psychiatric nursing education will be four years from now and their contribution to the system, but let me assure my honourable friend, it will be greater than it is today as a result of decisions made by this government. Selklrk Veterinary Cllnlc Closure Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my next question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

Will the minister listen to the over 200 residents who signed a petition, many from his own riding, and commit capital funds for the upgrading of the Selkirk veterinary clinic so this much-needed facility remains open. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the Veterinary Services Commission has been working with the Selkirk veterinary clinic to deal with their future , to deal with the issues that they have in front of them.

I can assure the member that the Veterinary Services Commission will continue to listen to them and work out the situations that they are putting in front of the commission. Mr. Dewar: My final question is to the same minister. Will he meet with the Selkirk Veterinary Services District Board to look at alternatives to the closing of the Selkirk veterinary clinic? Mr. Flndlay: Mr. Speaker, that issue is in front of the Veterinary Services Commission, and I will act on wha tever recomm enda tion the Ser vices Commission gives to me. CKY Televlslon Strike Government Advertising Withdrawal Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, for several months, we have been calling on the Premier to do what many businesses in Manitoba have been doing in terms of the labour dispute currently at CKY, and that is not to advertise during the period of the labour dispute. The Premier has refused to do so. Recently, the ratings have come out. If it was not good policy for them before in sense of fairness, it is certainly a good policy now, given the drop in ratings, for them to review their advertising policy.

Gi ven the sensitive nature of negoti ations currently underway, will the Premier not further become involved in this dispute? Will he pull the advertising from CKY for the remainder of the strike? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the member for Thompson when he last raised that question, to depart from what is normal practice and to deal and single out one unit of employment in the province because of a labour dispute is to intervene in the strike and to take sides.

It would be no different than if we decided not to buy goods from a certain manufacturer or supplier in the province because there was a labour dispute on. That would be changing, the suppli er would be intervening and taking sides in a strike. We have chosen not to take sides in the strike. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, once again, will the First Minister recognize at least that the Province of Manitoba is not getting its money's worth and at least withdraw the ads because of the major drop in ratings for Manitobans who are tuning out CKY because they will not participate and interfere in the strike?

They are voting by turning off. Would the First Minister also show the same sense of fairness that other Manitobans have shown? Mr. Fllmon: The process of pla cing publi c information ads is a nonpartisan one. It is carried out by the public service in accordance with a plan that they developed for the year. For us to take political action, get involved and start telling them where to advertise, how much to advertise, when to advertise, and all of those things, would be to do what the New Democrats did when they total ly- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable First Minister, to finish his response. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, we will not politically interfere and intervene either in the strike or in the placement of ads by virtue of the way in which the public service does that on a normal routine basis. That is the kind of policy that I think ought to be there. It should not be politicized.

2415 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 1991 Mr. Ashton: A final question: If they will not stop interf ering, will the y at le ast do wh at other businesses are doing, even those who are not pulling their ads, and make sure they do not continue to pay inflated rates, or is it the position of this government to keep paying standard rates to CKY and, in fact, actually subsidize the company durin g the length of this labour dispute? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what rates are being paid for the advertising.

I do not know whether there are preferential rates, discount rates or any thing el se happening that reflect the viewership of that. That is something that we have professional public servants there to do, to make sure that we get value for the dollars that we spend, and we will ensure that they do get value for the dollars that they spend. Department of Education ESL Consultant Layoff Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klld onan): Mr. Speaker, this government has not been good to ESL programs. They have transferred adul t ESL from the Department of Education to the Department of Cul ture.

They bungled the ESL negotiations with the federal government. They cut the ESL program at Red River in half, and now the ESL consultant at the Department of Education has been cut. Will this minister reconsider its assault on the ESL program and reinstate Mr. Peters? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Trainin g): Mr. Speaker, as the memb er knows, the programs that were transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship were those that were of a generic nature.

Indeed, there has been more funding go into ESL over the last two years as compared to what was in the ESL program before. Also, the memb er knows full well, from the Estimates debate that we just went through, that the ESL training at Red River Community College is that of a specific nature, and also the advanced ESL training. I have to indicate quite clearly that we as a province have not reduced any of the ESL training or any part of government's ESL programming. Indeed, we have increased it over the last two years, and we are trying to do as much as we can.

It is the federal component that has been decreased, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On Thursday, May 16 , 19 91 , I took under adv isemen t a poin t of order raised by the honourable government House leader respecting the statement: " ... is not the real reason that this minister is repealing this

section because he wants to do yet another favour for another of his Tory pals in St. James .... " used by the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) in respect of the honourable Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst). I have reviewed Hansard and have concluded that the statement goes beyond the usual cut and thrust of debate. In my opinion, it does impute unworthy motives to the minister, makes a personal charge against another member and reflects on the character of a member of this Legislative Assembly. In doing so, the honourable member for St. James has contravened provisions of the 6th Edition of Beauchesne's, citations 481 .(

e) and (

f) and 41 1 .(5). I am therefore calling upon the honourable member for St. James to withdraw the words in question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): With respect to you, Mr. Speaker, the words are withdrawn . Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for St. James. • (14 20) Nonpolltlcal Statement Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if I could have leave of the House to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Education and Training have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. That is agreed. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Sp eaker, the Faculty of Mathematics at the University of Waterloo annually sponsors a mathematics contest for Canadian students in Grade 9, Grade 10 and Grade 11. The contests were written on February 27 of this year. Between 25,000 and 30,000 students per grade write the contests annually across the country representing approximately 2,000 schools. The

May 23, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2416 school's score is based upon the top three results in the school. The results of this year's tests were recently released, Mr. Spea ker, and I would li ke to congratulate all the students and schools which partici pated and me ntion a few ind ivid ual achievements. In the Pascal contest for Grade 9 students, the top student in Manitoba was Mike Runge from Acadia Junior High. Mike placed 14 th of all students who wrote the test across Canada.

In Grade 10 , Joanne Thiessen from MacGregor Collegiate placed first in the province and finished 52nd overall in the country. In the Grade 11 contest, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's top student was Andrew Sarkar of St. John's Ravenscourt. Andrew also finished second overall in Canada. I would like to commend our Manitoba students for their fine showing in this national contest. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, after some discussion with the House leaders of the opposition parties, it was agreed that we will start today off in debate on bills. Mr.

Speaker, would you therefore call second readings, Bills 42, 47, 48, 53 and then proceed to Bill 38. SECOND READINGS Biii 42-The Publlc Schools Finance Board Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 42, The Public Schools Fina nce Board Amendmen t Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Commission des finances des ecoles publiques, now be read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to speak to Bill 42,

an act to amend The Public Schools Finance Board Act. I would, first of all, like to thank my colleague the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who spoke Friday to Bills 40 and 41 to amend The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act, respectively. Mr. Speaker, I draw particular attention to Bill 41 because it is directly related to Bill 42. Together provisions of these two acts will clarify the mandates and the organizational structures of the Public Schools Finance Board and the Department of Education and Training as they rel ate to the government support of education programming. Mr.

Speaker, in the pastthe Provincial Auditor has raised concerns in his reports to this Chamber about the operations of the Public Schools Finance Board and the Department of Education and Training as they relate to the government's support to education programming. The Auditor's concerns have been taken very seriously, and the amendments which we have before us today are intended to address those concerns. In brief, Mr. Speaker, as a result of these amendments, the Public Schools Finance Board will administer the capital support program to school divisions and will collect education support levies.

The board will continue to have an appointed chair who reports directly to the minister. The board will have its own staff who will report to and be directly responsible to the chair. The de partm en t, on the other han d , will administer the operational support program to school divisions. As well, Mr. Speaker , the department will continue to co-ordinate the overall budgeting process for the capital operational support programs and will provide reporting and monitoring of the financial ope rations of the department. Mr.

Speaker, that is the basic intent of the changes of the bill that are being proposed in Bill 42. It is to ensure the proper and efficient delivery of government support to education programming with clearly defined and compatible roles for the Public Schools Finance Board and the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Speaker, I might add that many of these changes have been due for some time, and indeed it is the Provincial Auditor who made sure that these were noted in his report to the Chamber.

It is now time for us to move on these changes, so that indeed we will not only comply with the Provincial Auditor's request, but indeed that the operations will be more clear and more meaningful in terms of how the Public Schools Finance Board conducts its activities

2417 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MANI TOBA May 23, 1991 and how the Department of Education and Training conducts its operations as well. So, Mr. Speaker, with those few comments, I would recommend that this bill move through to committee. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the mem ber for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate on this bill be adjourned. Motion agreed to. 8111 47-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), that Bill 47, The Highway Traffi c Amen dmen t and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant le Co de de la rout e et d' autres di sposi tions legislatives, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Drledger: It gives me great pleasure to present to you Bill 47, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act. I want to indicate to my critics that I have information here that after the reading of both these bills I will be presenting to them, indicating what the current program is and what the proposal is of the bill.

Bill 47 proposes to repeal Bill 88, The Physically Disabled Persons Parking Act which was passed March 15 , 1990. As Bill 88 was introduced as a private member's bill, proclamation was reserved to ensure the act that it did indeed effectively meet the interests and concerns of the disabled community that it was intended to serve. Upon detailed examination it was discovered that the bill was severely problema tic both in content and design.

The primary deficiency of Bill 88 was that it enacted an independent statute, distinct from The Highway Traffic Act, which was to legislate disabled persons' parking offences and parking provisions by provincial statute when these responsibilities are a muni cipal responsibi lity del egated under The Highway Traffic Act. Legislating these provisions by provincial statute rendered the legislation vir tu ally unenfor ceable due to the lack of administrative and enforcement mechanisms.

Bill 47 developed after extensive consultations with the representatives of Manitoba's disabled persons, advocacy organizations, Manitoba law enf orcement agencies, parking lot owners, Departments of Justice and Rural Development, the Cities of Winnipeg and Brando n, Chambers of Commerce in Manitoba and rural communities, has been speci fically de signed to address the inadequacies of the original bill. · I have to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that when Bill 88 was introduced, the whole House at that time was under the impression that this kind of consultation had taken place, and obviously that was not the case.

Bill 47 amends The Highway Traffic Act with consequential amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act and to The Municipal Act to ensure a consistent and uniform disabled persons' parking program is implemented across the province. The program has three specific intents in serving the disabled community of Manitoba : (

a) The bill provides for the sole recognition of a provincially issued disabled persons' parking permit which will eli minate the confusion presently be ing experienced due to a variety of permits currently available for different purposes in Manitoba. All other permits currently being issued in Manitoba will be legi slati vely invali dated after a six-m onth phase-in period. Establishment of a provincial permit is consistent wi th the 19 84 federal- provinci al terri torial memo ran dum of un der standing desi gned to promote the consistent di splay of physically disabled persons' parking permits across Canada.

In keeping with the reciprocity agreements with virtually all U.S. states, all extra-pro vincially issued permits will be recognized as valid in Manitoba as wi ll Mani toba's permi ts be recog nized extra-provincially. * (1 430) The three-year renewal permits will be issued by one central body, the Society for Mani tobans with Disabilities at a cost of $10 per three-year term. Manitoba currently provides an annual grant to the society and will continue to do so for another two years to assist in the development of this program.

However, the fee will allow the program , after a two-year period, to be operated on a cost-recovery, nonprofit basis.

May 23, 1991 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITO BA 2418

Section (b): The bill requires all municipalities with popula tions of 3,000 or more to enact, if already not in place, by-laws making it an offence to park in a space designated for disabled persons without displaying the provincially-issued permit. These by- laws shall also ensure that the penalty for such an offence shall be the maximum fine allowable within each municipality's current fine structure. These by-laws are to be enforced by both law en for cemen t agencies and on-s ite secu rity personnel with designated special constable status.

Municipalities will also be encouraged via this legislation to pass accompanying by-laws requiring parking lot owners to designate disabled persons' parking spaces in accordance with the individual needs of each municipality.

Section (c): In a provision unique to Manitoba, the bill will also enhance the accessibility of physically disabled persons by allowing left side to curb parking in restricted circumstances. Disabled persons, both passengers and drivers, tend to exit vehicles from the passenger side and are often hampered by the curb when parked right side to curb. I am now confident that Manitoba, through this legisla tion, will be deli vering to the disabled community a parking program which will both effectively address the needs of the physically disabled and will provide a role model to other ju risdictions in the development of similar legislation. Mr. Speaker, there was an

article in the paper the other day at which I took some exception really, where it says: "Handicapped parking bill branded 'gutt ed'." This was the view and comments, I suppose, of the individual who at that time brought forward the bill, Mr. Mark Minenko. I took some exception to the comments that he was making in there because at the time when he brought the bill forward and indicated that adequate consultation had taken place, that was not the case. As a result of that we have spent a lot of time working on this bill and bringing it forwa rd.

I have to indicate that-I just want to read one little comment in here by John Lane, the executive director of the Canadian Paraplegic Association's Winnipeg office, who says: "'There have been compromises made in order to ensur e the co-ope ration of the municipalities in secu ring a bill that they will enforce,' said John Lane, executive director. "'The big thing the bill has got going for it is that there seems to be broad public acceptance ... I think it's a good bill.'" So with those comments, I submit the bill for second reading and ask for the support of the opposition. Mr.

Cllf Evans (Interlake): I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate on Bill 47 be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 48-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) that Bill 48, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de la route, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Motion presented. Mr. Drledger: Madam Deputy Speaker, in presenting The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, this is our normal housekeeping bill that is presented every year.

The Highway Traffic Act is a very thick and complex act, and each year we come forward with certain amendments as we have done here. I am hoping that one of these days we will be able to take and bring forward a whole revised act so it will not be as complex as it is now. I also want to indicate, as with the previous bill, that I have information here that I will be giving to the critics which indicates the present legislation that we ha ve, the proposed changes, what it is intended to do and the new changes. They can go through the bill item by item and deal with it in that manner.

I want to indicate to the critic from the official opposition that one of his colleagues had also expressed interest in that, the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), and maybe the member could make him aware of the information as well. Ma dam Deputy Speaker, Bill 48 is my depar tment's annual housekeeping bill to upda te The Highway Traffic Act in response to ongoing improvements in the administration of highway safety in Manitoba. This year's bill contains amendments to 10 main subject areas. The first one is learner driver's legislation. With respect to

2419 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 learner drivers, it is amended to ensure driver education students have more opportunity to gain driving experience, to ensure learner drivers are protected against being accompanied by a person who is impaired and to ensure the efficient issuance of a learner's licence to novice motorcyclists. The second one is accident reporting threshold. The act is amended to increase the property damage threshold for reporting traffic accidents from $500 to $1 ,000.

The increase to $1 ,000 reflects a reasonable threshold for reporting an accident to the police in light of the current costs of repairing motor vehicles dama ged in traffic accidents. I will continue to put the 10 areas on the record, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the details, as I indicated, I am prepared to go through with them, even on a sit-down basis with the critics to make sure that they understand if they have any questions on that. Item 3 is vehicle equipment inspection and registration.

Amendme nts are proposed to ensure fish farmers may register their trucks as farm trucks to requir e daytime running lig hts and centre high-mou nted stop lights as standard equipment for current model vehicles, and to ensure automatic occupant restraint devices. For example, air bags are prohibited from being removed from a vehicle. The fourth area is stolen vehicles. Amendments are introduced at the request of Manitoba's law enforcement agencies to assist in the apprehension of car thieves who are selling stolen vehicles to car shredders and batteries for their scrap value.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I had the representation from the RCMP and the city police who talked to my colleagues and brought forward some of the concerns about what is happening with the car theft rings that are operating in the city, where they will take and pick up a car and within a half an hour have it through a shredder, and you never have any evidence of it. We have some things here that they feel are going to help protect against that. These are things that they brought forward, and I have another area that I will bring forward as well. The fifth area is driver im pr ove men t.

Amendments are proposed to ensure errant drivers cannot avoid driver licence suspension action by changing their residence status to suit their circumstances. The sixth one is driver fitness. Amendments are proposed to ensure more consistent provisions with respect to requiring reports from persons who are actively experiencing problems with alcohol or drug use and to ensure consistency in the matter of physicians reporting to the register any medical condition of their patients which would negatively affect the patient's ability to operate a motor vehicle.

This is another area where there is some concern that we are not being consistent in terms of how we deal with somebody when a doctor brings forward a report indicating that an individual is not capable or should maybe not be driving. Some of these things, Madam Deputy Speaker, have actually been used or are being done, and what we are doing is, we are just bringing it forward in legislation. * (1 440) The seventh area is law en for cement.

Amendments are proposed on behalf of Manitoba's law enforcement agencies to ensure peace officers, under specific circumstances, are allowed to extinguish their emergency warning devices, both to the benefit of the public and to assist in the apprehension of law violators. This, again, was at the request of the law enforcement agencies.

I will give a brief little example where we have, let us say, a fire call at three o'clock in the morning, either a false call-I am dealing specifically with a false alarm that is sent in-a nd we have our crews tearing down residential streets at three o'clock in the morning with the sirens going and the bells going. What happens is that we are talking specifically of residential areas where, at times, we do not think it would be necessary to wake up the whole neighbourhood by having it done-under certain circumstances, and that is very important.

The other thing, of course, the law enforcement agencies have asked that during the case of an investigation where, let us say, a robbery is in effect, that as they move in, providing that they use proper safety precautions, that they would maybe be able to extinguish their sirens so that they could possibly move in to apprehend an individual. At the present time, they have to have their lights flashing, sirens wai ling. In many cases, the individuals have managed to elude, you know, get away from the place where they are committing their crime before the police get there.

These are things that they have basically requested and we have brought forward.

May 23, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MANI TOBA 2420 The eighth area is under the national safety code. Amendments are proposed to ensure that a driver's licence is not suspended for unwarranted reasons. The ninth area is criminal code renumbering. Amendments are proposed to update the act to reflect

section numbering changes in the Criminal Code of Canada. The tenth area is under the Highway Traffic Board. Amendments are proposed to ensure the streamlining of the approval of board orders. I want to, Madam Deputy Speaker, talk to the critics specifically about this. This is an area where we have had a court ruling go against the Motor Transport Board under their insurance aspect of it, and it is creating a certain amount of uncertainty within the industry and in the trucking industry right now.

They are asking for, actually, speedy passage of this area alone, and it was felt, on discussion with my staff, that we should not bring forward a specific bill just for this one item, that we could include it in the amendment bill that we have before the House which is basically our normal housekeeping amendment act. So I am prepared to have further discussion of this and clarify that, and possibly have some of the critics, if they have concerns, meet with some of my staff people to fully acquaint themselves of what we are trying to accomplish by the 1 Oth amendment in here. Madam Deputy Speaker, in

summary, Bill 48 proposes a number of amendments to The Highway Traffic Act which are routine in nature, which are vital to keeping the administration of highway safety in this province current and progressive. Thank you. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate on this bill be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 53-The Natural Products Marketing Amendment Act Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlcult ure): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 53, The Natural Products Marketing Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la commercialisation des produits naturals, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Flndlay: Madam Dep uty Speaker, I am pleased to introduce Bill 53, The Natural Products Amendment Act. The intent of this bill is to provide authority in The Natural Products Marketing Act which will specifically authorize the use of the producer boards' fun ds to fi rst establish compensation reserves and, secondly, to permit the funding of research. Currently, there is no such funding provision available in the act.

For several years, the poultry boards have been discussing the possibility of establishing a fund to compensate those producers whose poultry flocks have had to be destroyed because of particular diseases. An example of the poultry disease that has really caused significant trouble in Manitoba in recent years is infectious laryngotracheitis, more commonly known as IL T. This disease affects chickens but not turkeys or waterfowl . The province has, through the authority of The Anima l Disea ses Act, ope rated a policy of attempting to eradicate this particular disease.

This has resulted in a slaughter of infected fowl involving compensation, assistance, cleaning, disinfection and payment compensation. It is important to note that once a bird becomes affected by this virus, it is a carrier for life. Therefore, the choice has been made to eradicate any outbreaks rather than try to vaccinate the fowl. Up until the fall of 19 85 the Manitoba government assume d all the exp en ses associated with investigation, eradication, cleanup and monitoring. In October of 1 985, there was a serious IL T outbreak in a large commercial broiler flock.

The government approached the industry to share in the cost of eradicating the diseased fowl. Industry agreed and shared the $38,000 compensation package on a 50-50 basis. In 19 86, a large layer flock was stricken with the same disease and eradication proceeded on the same 50-50 basis. In the past few years, there have been several outbreaks of IL T in small flocks and the industry has agreed to pay 10 0 percent of the compensation to those poultry flocks that had to be eradicated.

The Manitoba Egg Producers' Marketing Board, the Manitoba Chicken Broiler Producers' Marketing Board and the Manitoba Broiler Hatching Egg Comm ission have reached an agr eem ent to establish a joint fund in the amount of a maximum of $1 50,000, and a request that this amendment to

2421 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 The Natural Products Marketing Act to allow them to set up this compensation fund. They have agreed that the funding will be shared on a 67 percent basis for the egg industry, 30 percent by the chicken industry, and 3 percent by the hatching egg producers. This particular fund will be administered by a committee comprised of the general managers for each of the three boards I just mentioned.

Payment from the fund will only occur when the dir ector of vete rinary servic es, Ma ni toba Agriculture, has issued a destruction order pursuant to The Animal Diseases Act. I would certainly like to, at this time, congratulate the three poultry boards for taking the responsibility to fund their own compensation programs, when particular flocks have to be destroyed because of disease. The amendment will also permit those other industries, those other producer boards, hogs, milk, honey an d veget ables, to est ablish sim ilar compensation funds that may be unique to their industry.

In terms of funding research projects the boards in Manitoba have on many occasions made financial contributions to such research organizations as Veterinary Infectious Diseases Organization, otherwise known as VIDO. The boards have also made financial contributions for the purchase of testing equipment used by the Animal Industries branch of Manitoba Agriculture. These funds will be admi nistered by the individual boards for the research check off.

In conclusion, I would like to urge all members of this House and the Legislature to give the bill their support so that we can ensure that the funds are available to compensate producers whose poultry have to be destroyed because of infectious disease, as well as establishing a source of additional funds to continue to su pport essential research in agriculture in the province of Manitoba. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seconded by the memb er for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to. *** Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River- * (1 450) Point of Order · Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not know whether I have made this request before, but the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Dreidger) in addressing Bill 48, I beli eve, kindly agreed to provide members opposite with a spreadsheet which shows the existing section, the proposed amendment and the rationale.

It was common practice in this House in 19 87, 19 88 certainly, to provide members opposite with a breakdown of the details of the bill. The Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has kindly provided us with a detailed breakdown of the -(in terjection)- Thank you. We have been blessed with an abundance of new legislation in the last few weeks, and I would simply ask that memb ers, ministers when they are introducing legislation for second reading provide the spread sheets, as has been done and is past practice in this House.

Mada m Depu ty Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon does not have a point of order. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Biii 38-The Wiidiife Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: Resuming debate on second reading of Bill 38 (The Wildlife Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la conservation de la fauna), standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Stand? Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. *** Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call Bills 5, 6, and thereafter the bills as shown on the Order Paper, Debate on Second Readings.

May 23, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANI TOBA 2422 Biii 5-The Mental Health Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: Resuming debate on second reading of Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la sante mentale), on the proposed motion of the honour able Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) , standing in the name of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Stand? Some Honourable Members: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Biii 6-The Mines and Minerals and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: Resuming debate on second reading of Bill 6 (The Mines and Minerals and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les mines et les mineraux et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) , standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Madam Deput y Speaker, the member for Point Douglas would like to speak on this bill. Unfortunately, he is detained at a meeting. I would like to ask leave of the House to recall this bill at a further time later on this afternoon. Medam Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed that this bill be recalled at some point later in the afternoon?

Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Biii 8- The Vital Statistics Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 8 (The Vital Statistics Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les statistiques de l'etat civil), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilles ham mer), standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Stand? An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Biii 6-The Mines and Minerals and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on the second reading of Bill 6 (The Mines and Minerals and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les mines and les mineraux et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) , standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): It gives me pleasur e to conclude my remarks today. As I mentioned yesterday, Bill 6 is a positive step in the right direction and it has been long overdue.

It has taken 60 years to come forward with amendments to this bill and it will, I repeat again, it will change some of the regulations into statutes which should have a little more power for the people instead of the legislators. I was encouraged to see where the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) had indicated that they were negotiating a new Mineral Development Agreement, and I think that is very important for all Mani tobans, because with the new miner al agreement and with dollars in place, we should see a flurry of activity in the exploration field and right across Manitoba.

When you look at the outlay of Manitoba in general, you will notice that in northern Manitoba the vast part of northern Manitoba is covered with lakes, rocks and trees and has not been developed yet. When you have a new mineral agreement where individuals can access exploration dollars, those are probably the areas that they will be targeting and, hopefully, they will find some new minerals for a mine to start up in one of those communities or start up a new community. I recall the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Driedger) when he was describing his journey to Cul laton Lake which was a gold mine that was developed in the Northwest Territorie s, but it was very close to Churchill. It was bet ween Churchill and Eskimo Point. He mentioned the fact that they had to fly in with this huge plane. That plane would have been what they call a Hercules plane. He said that they flew over the wilderness. There was no community in sight, no runways, nowhere to land. What he had mentioned was that they would fly as low as possible over the tree line and drop this huge cat into the middle of nowhere. A lot of those

2423 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 pieces of machinery are very heavy and when it hit the ground it did some damage, but what they did was they brought people in and they repaired that cat. From there they got the cat running, and then they cleared the land and developed a clearing. Then they built their runway, and that is how they brought the rest of the equipment in to start that mine.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is very important that they come up with a new agreement to get dollars for ex plo ration companies to utilize our vast resources we have in Manitoba, especially in northern Manitoba, because we have such a high unemployment rate in a lot of the communities and reserves that we have in the North. People are always looking for ways of increa sing job opportunities, and a lot of people are looking for new busin esses to deve lop and start in northern Manitoba. What better place than if you developed a new community, a whole new community, if they found, say, a gold vein or copper or zinc?

Once you brought in your cat and you cleared the land, built a runway, then what is the next step? Then you bring the workers in and they start developing the mine. You bring your development miners in and they will sink a shaft, or it will be an open-pit mine. Once you do that, then you have started developing a community, and a lot of the communities in northern Manitoba were started exactly that way. You could look at Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Thompson, Sherridon, which is a good example. There was a thriving gold mine there at one time. People would come in and work in those mines.

For awhile they would come in for two weeks at a time, fly out for another two weeks. Then eventually what happens is people start feeling the loneliness and isolation. Someone will build a small house, then someone else will build another small house, bring their families in.

Then what happens when the families come in, they will say, well, we need a school for our children, or we need this, we need that, we need a store for our groceries, and then the community develops. • (1 500) I am encouraged that if we see a progressive new mineral development agreement, that we will hopefully see some new communities developed in Manitoba. The more employment opportunities we have for individuals, it will be much better for all of Manitoba. We will have a much greater tax base.

What happens when you start a community, Madam Deputy Speaker, people always mention that you need incentives for the big companies to develop a mine, and they need the return on their dollars that they have invested, and that is correct. Also, you need fair return for the workers that go and work in the mines and the quarries, and you need protection for the labourers, the miners, engineers who live in those communities. It cannot all be one way. What would you have if you developed a mine?

You invested, say $20 million into opening of a mine, and the rate of pay that you would pay each individual would be, say, $5 an hour. I do not think that mine would be very profitable, because you would not have the individuals to work it for one thing. Qualified miners, muckers, and group tram operators need a fair return also for their work. So when you develop a new community and mines, then you have people that will have a good wage incentive. Also, you look at the individuals that go to these re mote commu nities, a lot of these individuals are attracted by the so-called isolation of those communities.

That is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is so important in this bill, and it is very encouraging in this bill, that the whole rehabilitation process is part of the whole bill. Because a lot of these individuals who move either north, east, west, wherever the mine is, if it is isolated, a lot of them will go there for the hunting, the fishing, the great outdoors that we have in Manitoba today. If we could preserve that, then that will keep those attractions for our children and their children.

I do not know if you have-l ike, I know a lot of members of the House here have travelled in northern Manitoba, for example, and if you just look at some of the mine sites that we have today, you ask the workers, why would you move to say Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake or Sherridon or Thompson or the Pas? Ninety-nine percent will say I came up here to make some dollars, the money was good, but I fell in love with the community. I fell in love with the outdoors. You will hear that over and over and over .

When you have that kind of attraction and the whole development agreement in place, you will attract many more workers and many more Manitobans. People from other provinces will be able to enjoy what we have to offer in Manitoba.

May 23, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2424 I recall many experiences that I have had living in northern Manitoba with a lot of the remote lakes and stuff that we would go into. We would do some fishing and some hunting, and they are some of the most pleasant moments of my life. I wish everyone here in this House woul d have a chance to experience that at least once. The ones that have had, they know exactly what I am talking about. You are away from everything and everybody. It is just you and the blackflies and mosquitoes.

They do not seem to be that bad because you are giving something in return of gaining something. A lot of those lakes and stuff like that, that I am speaking of- An Honourable Member: No mosquitoes there? Mr. Hlckes: Oh, there are lots of mosquitoes, blackflies. Madam Deputy Speaker, when you experience that, that is something that we need to preserve for our children, our grandchildren and for generations to come.

Also, the whole danger of a lot of that tranquility and peace and the fishing and the hunting that I just spoke of could be disrupted and lost forever if we are not active with the whole rehabilitation process. That is why, it is so important that if we are going to be aggressive and put into proper measures the whole rehabili tation process, I encourage the government to look at the number of inspectors they have because that is going to be the whole key. If you maintain only three inspectors, it is going to be impossible to get everywhere.

A lot of those, if they say, for instance, discovered some orebody in the middle of the wilderness, and they did, like the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) said, dropped a cat in there, built a runway, developed a community, developed the store. In order to access the ore that is found in that new community, will be the buildin gs of roads and draining of some of the lakes. A lot of those lakes and stuff that we now enjoy, we have to make sure that we take all the steps that are necessary to preserve that for our future. Also, another thing is, when we talk about the great out doors.

Part 15 of the bill sets out requirements for the operations of mines, of course, in a manner in which it does not endanger the public safety and the environment. That is why I say, about the construction of roads and the draining of the lakes, and also when you look at some of the huge open-pit operations that we have in Manitoba and right across Canada, you will see where they have excavated the ore, the gravel and the soil. Everything is excavated and you are left with a huge, huge hole.

A lot of times that hole will go thousands of feet and the only way you start at the top and you start excavating down, and what you have is a huge hole and you have a road that spirals all the way down to the bottom. That is where your turning point is to pick up another load, and you spiral all the way up again. The whole rehabilitation process of an open-pit mine I look forward to seeing because I cannot imagine how that hole would ever be filled and the soil and the trees the way they were before. That will be an im possible task.

So that is where the people and the community, I feel, should have some responsibility of coming up with ideas and initiatives in order to benefit the community that those open-pit mines or the rock quarries or what have you directly affe ct. We have a rehabil itation process, and whether it is a community that wants to maybe make a miniature Butchart Gardens or snake pit or what have you, let the community decide that and let the community implement the work. That way, they can emp lo y a lot of the lo cal people in th ose communities and also the whole quarry.

The collection of levies for quarry collection, that will be increased. Well, it will be doubled, and half of that will be used to rehabilitate quarry pits that we have now in existence. Those will be evaluated on a year-to-year basis, and who will collect that? Who will ensure that the proper rehabilitation takes place? I would encourage the government to look at passing over some of that responsi bil ity to municipalities to do the collecting of those levies and also being the watchdog over the rehabilitation and also the extraction of those quarries.

This would make a lot of sense because if you are in a northern remote community, how often are you going to have government officials or inspectors fly up there to inspect, say, a quarry or a pit? I cannot see it happening too often, and what you will have is, right at the end of a project you will have this massive attempt at rehabilit ation of these rock quarries, and where in the bill, which is very encouraging, is that ongoing rehabilitation that will be evaluated on a yearly basis?

2425 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANI TOBA May 23, 1991 If you give that responsibility I mentioned earlier to the communities, they could go out, inspect it and say, hey, you are veering off too far here, or you do not need to excavate here because of this or that. Also, if a community says, well, we want to maybe make a pond out of that rock qua rry and put fish stock s in there an d maybe where some communities do not have adequate fishing, they could put fish stocks in so that children and adults and the women and the men could have a fishing spot that could be used on a yearly basis.

Even a lot of the communities that do not have-it could be done in Swan River, it could be done anywhere. Also, with a rock quarry, I know some areas where a dug-out pit in a lot of the communities is the only swimming hole in that community. * (1 510 ) Madam Deputy Speaker, I would encourage the government to let the communities take some responsibility and come up with some of their ideas and also to have the advantage to utilize and hopefully develop new recreation opportunities for people in remote communities.

If you look at some of the dug-out pits that I have seen in the past, they are excellent swimming holes. They are deep and they are flat. There are no hidden boulders. It is excellent nice, clean water because it is rainwater and a lot of them are flowing in from the spring. You would not need to invest in swimming pools and stuff in communities because a lot of the communities are very happy. They do not have the tax base, and they do not have the resources that we have here in southern Manitoba.

A lot of the communities that you have in northern Manitoba are-like the majority of the population are of aboriginal ancestry and I know with this bill, Bill 6, they will be very encouraged because of the rehabilitation that is part of the bill. I know, like myself and my colleagues, we might make a few amendments to it but in principle we support this bill. It is an excellent step in the right direction, but also we have to make sure that the people and the communities are well maintained and they have their input. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (lnkst er): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 8-The Vltal Statistics Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), for second reading of Bill 8, The Vital Statistics Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les statistiques de l'etat civil, standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed. Biii 12-The Court of Queen's Bench Small Clalms Practices Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), second reading of Bill 12 (The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amen dm ent Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine), standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomia k). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speak er: Stand? Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Biii 19-The Local Authorities Election Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), second reading of Bill 19 ( The Local Au thorities Elec tion Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'election des autorites locales), standing in the name of the honourable mem ber for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Agreed and so ordered. Biii 20-The Anlmal Husbandry Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to resume debate for second reading of Bill 20 (The Animal Husbandry Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'el evage) , standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk).

May 23, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2426 Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, from time to time it is necessary to amend legislation to fit in with the needs of the people . In this particular piece of legislation, municipalities have identified certain areas that they requested to be amended. What is happening with these amendments is the right thing that should be happening, particularly in the area of changing the

definitions of animals and poultry to those that are only used for livestock purposes. I am also pleased to see that municipalities will now be relieved of the responsibility of providing compensation for animals that have been killed on the road, because individuals have the opportunity to have insurance. If an individual's livestock gets out, it should be that individual's responsibility to compensate and look after the costs of accidents that result in that. Also, Madam Deputy Speaker, the

section of the legislation that deals with electronic identification is legislation that deals with modern times. I am pleased that this is coming in, because there are types of identification that�ertainly this is a more humane type of branding and identification of animals. I am pleased to see that is in the legislation. However, since the mini ster was ma king amendments to the legislation, I am surprised that he has not made amendments to the

section of the legisl ation that deals with the production and di stri bution of animal semen. Sin ce the government has found it within its power to decide to sell, privatize, the drug and semen centres in Manitoba, I am surprised that they have not amended the legislation to deal with that as well, instead of taking the sneaky way out and just letting it go. They know there would have been an outcry from the public if they would have tried to amend this legislation. Unfortunate ly, they have chosen to let the semen centre go into the private sector.

I am very disappointed in that, because I am sure it is going to mean much additional cost to farmers, particularly those in the dairy industry. We have heard from people who are involved in the veterinarian clinics who are concerned with what has happened. They are also very concerned that they have not been consulted. They had a meeting, a veterinarian meeting across the province, and nothing was mentioned about the veterinarians' clinic being privatized and turned over to the vets.

The government has chosen to do this, but if they were doing it, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think they should have had the nerve to also amend the legislation to cover it and let the public know what their intentions were and deal with it in that way. As I say, I think this is going to be very regressive work for the farming community, particularly people who are dealing in purebred stock. We have had people call us on this, in particular, several veterinarians who are concerned about this service and also farmers who are concerned, because they are now saying that they will not be getting the services.

People who now have the business are saying, well, there is not enough business in this particular area, so we are not going to provide the service here. That is exactly what we were afraid of would happen, that the service would be reduced once the service was privatized. However, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is dealing with amendments that deal with animals and municipalities. Unfortunately, it is not dealing with the semen centre and the veterinarian clinics which could have been dealt under this legislation.

So in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I woul d like to say that, yes, these are good amendm ent s to the legislation. We will be supporting them. However, I would hope that the government would reconsider and also look at those parts of the legislation that cover the drug semen centre which, if they were going to change, it should have been covered as well. Ma dam Deput y Spea k er: The honourable member for Swan River has concluded her time limit. • (1 520) Mr.

Cllf Evans (Interlake): I would like to make some comments on this very important bill and would like to have the patience of the Assembly as I am not 10 0 percent with my voice and not feeling that well and appreciate the effort. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to begin by making comments on Bill 20, referring back to what the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) made comment on when he presented this motion and the bill.

He made comments to the fact that the way it was introduced back in 19 87 and this government at that time shows evidence that we do not consult with people and organizations to put a bill in place and to make amendments to it.

2427 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 I would like to-- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Interlake and all members of the House, I would like to draw to your attention that we have some technical difficulties. Hansard is down at the moment. What is the will of the House? A 15 -minute recess? A 10 -minute recess? Agreed and so ordered. *** The House took recess at 3:22 p.m. After Recess The House resumed at 3:41 p.m. Madam Deputy Speaker: Or der, please. We will resume debate on second reading of Bill 20. Mr.

Cllf Evans: It is a pleasure for me to stand and make some comments on Bill 20, The Animal Husbandry Amendment Act. Beforehand, I would like to make some comments in response to the Minister of Agriculture's (Mr. Findlay) comments, and I quo te, that it was introdu ced by the government, an amendment, back in 19 87, in that he was making some changes to it and saying another bit of evidence that this party at the time and the minister at the time, who happened to be my predecessor, Mr. Uruski, saying that he did not consult with groups and people before making the amendments.

Well, the act was first amended in 19 76 by Mr. Uskiw, and at that time from the original bill in 19 33. In 19 76, Mr. Uskiw. along with the times, did consult with people, made the amendments, made the changes. As time goes on and things change, in 19 87, Mr. Uruski again made another amendment to the bill, and the Minister of Agriculture claims that the different groups that they consulted with are in agreement with the amendments. I must say that Mr.

Uruski, at the time, and his government at the time, as Minister of Agriculture, did consult with the same groups that this minister claims to have consulted with and got input from not only the mu nicipalities and from Ke ysto ne Agricultural Producers and others, and the people and the farmers themselves, he did also consult with them on the amendments he made in 19 87 as amendments that were at the time needed, as changes to the act that were recommended by the people.

Now we have in present times that this government has again made amendments to the act as per the requirements and the needs of the farming communities and of the people and the different groups and the municipalities that have wanted these changes. So I would just like to make that comment, that it is not the fact that we on this side did not consult with anybody in the last two amendments. It was, in fact, that the amendmen ts were made in consultation with the groups and the amendments were made as per the times of the day.

I would like to make some comments on some points of the act, the point of changing the definition of animal and poultry, so that the definition clearly represents that we are only talking about livestock that are used for agricultural purposes. We are not talking about pets. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that was included also in 19 87. An amendment to that was made and again now it has to be changed because of the time and for the protection of the farmers and for the protection of the people who use animals and some livestock as fowl for purposes just for hobby, for having them on their premises and such.

It is an important part of it. I believe that clearly defined part of the act will benefit those people who know exactly what-and can state what they are using their livestock not for agricultural purposes but for their own benefits. Another part that I would like to stress on is that the municipalities, of course, do agree in regard to the

Section 2 changes where the sections require that damages have to be paid to people who actually experience some damage to their animals or poultry by animals, and the compensation had to be given by the municipality. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that change, and the deletion of that, is a beneficial amendment. Municipalities now, and the way times are going for municipalities, could not afford to compensate farmers or livestock owners for damages, loss of limb, loss of life or any other accidental happening-or not accidental so much as just destroying.

We can appreciate the fact that UMM and MAUM do appreciate these changes. As I mentioned, we are having some tough times with municipalities and with the offloading that is occurring towards municipalities for different things. The taxes and such are higher. The tax base now for municipalities and such is so low, Madam Deputy Speaker. When a farmer comes and brings a bill to a municipality for a couple of thousand dollars, the municipality has to adjust their budget and work on the fact to be able-or had to at one tim e-to compensate this farmer for his loss. If you take a

May 23, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITO BA 2428 good example, perhaps a farmer loses two or three or four cattle and comes to the municipality and says, I have this bill here for this amount of money that I would like you to cover. Under the law, it requires that you cover me and compensate me for this loss. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I imagine that at the other times that the amendments were made, there was not that great of a concern with that.

As I have said earlier, amendments made in '76 and '87 to the act were made as per a requirement, and at that time perhaps municipalities felt that there was not that great of a cost to them that they should ask the government, or ask the people of the government, to change the act so that they would have to take care of it. Now, of course, there are greater losses, and municipalities have said to this government and to us-and we have lobbied ourselves. I have spoken to many of the farmers and the municipalities since election.

This was a concern of the different LGDs, municipalities and villages who required a change in the act so that it could protect them against having to dish out all kinds of money for losses to the farmers' livestock or to whatever he brought forth on the bill. Now, of course, the compensatiol'}- this act will provide the alternative for compensation.

When an animal has been destroyed on the road or for whatever reason, the farmer can either provide insu rance for himself on that or use private insu rance to cover these kinds of dam age s, probably for very little cost, and be able to get a full return for his losses, whether it be just for one livestock animal or for 10 . * (1 550) The municipalities felt all along, I guess, in the past few years that this responsibility to them was something that had to be looked at. I believe that the minister in his amendment in this

section did what he felt was right to make the amendment, to make it more feasible for the municipalities not to be ab le to have that responsibility and put the responsibility on private insurance or coverage for this type of loss. Madam Deput y Spe aker, staying with the municipalities and such, the cost to them was getting perhaps out of hand in certain situations and, as I had mentioned earlier, we all feel the fact that municipalities do have only a certain budget that they can handle, that they can take care of things like that.

They have other important things to look after within their municipalities, their roads, and other dealings with municipalities. I am sure that the consultation with UMM and MAUM was well taken and, now that we do have it in place, it will relieve the municipalities of having to take care of these types of compensations. Another portion or part of the act that I would like to comment also on is branding and legalizing el ectronic ident ification instead of traditional branding.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as a much younger fellow, I did spend many, not too many but some, years out on the farm in southeastern Manitoba, took care of and helped with all the farm chores. One of the things that I found distressing at that time was the fact of having to brand-my uncles and my grandfat her had to brand their cattle-and to me I wondered how we would feel if we were branded with a hot iron and sent out. It bothered me at that time. -(interjection)- It would hurt, it would hurt. I always asked my Grandpa why they did that, that way.

Of course, at that time there was no other way of doing it, and he said that is the only way that we can keep track of our cattle and our livestock and know just exactly who belongs to whom. I feel that the part of the amendment putting in the legalizing of electronic identification is a good one. Today's technology, we have to-a gain, as I have mentioned about the amendment changes in '87 and '76, it is a show of the times, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have to go along with the times. This type of amendment allows for the farmers to place whatever mechanism in the animal painlessly.

There is no undue damage to the animal. A big factor, I guess one of the factors that will help, is for rustling. Even in southeastern Manitoba, in those earlier days, there was the loss and the rustling of cattle and of hogs and what not, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that if technology had been advanced at that time, farmers throughout this province, not only my grandparents but my uncles, would have saved many, many dollars on the tact of losing cattle, someone coming up and taking it away. It is a good part of the act, the prevention and the help and the aid taken away from rustling within the pro vince.

Presently now within the Interlake, especially in the Moosehorn and Ashern area where

2429 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 23, 1991 cattle are more in abundance than what they are on the eastern side of my constituency, it is a big problem, has been a big problem.

Without any way of identification, without any way of finding out just which cattle belonged to whom, farmers are losing enormous amounts of money, losing money to the fact that at night or whenever, over a period of time, the cattle would be out and the cattle farmer would start with perhaps 300 or 400 head and over a period of time when it was time, let us say, to count his cattle, he would maybe lose 10 or 20 at the time and absolutely no way of finding out how and where they are, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The fact there, again, is not only are we going to be saving farmers money, we are going to be able to prevent them through inspections. We will be able to get a basis of where the cattle are, who has them, what has happened to them. Perhaps they have strayed. Perhaps they have just stray ed, Madam Deputy Speaker. With the electronic identification, I feel that it will be a big plus to the cattle farmers in times that are tough. A loss, even one, nowadays is a tremendous blow after you have spent many dollars and time raising these cattle for your benefit. My honourable friend from Transcona (Mr.

Reid) agrees with me there. Of course, we always agree on everything anyhow, both being from Transcona. So on that part of it, again getting back to the fact that now we can have identification, we can have better control for the farmers, we can work around it, take away losses from them, help them in the way of not only saving them money now, now with amendments to the act we are saving municipalities money for compensation as I said earlier. We are saving the farmer money for being able to protect his livestock better.

I must agree with the minister's amendment here that it would allow for procedure of collecting fees and developing cost recovery, if needed, for administering that part of the act. Well, I feel that is part and parcel of everything, to keep better control and to aid and benefit the farmers for that. Again, to stay with the legalized identification or electronic, I can see myself 25 or 30 years ago as mentioned, seeing the animals being branded the old hot iron way, and my grandparents losing many dollars in the fact that they lost their cattle through either straying or rustling.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we do want to include the fact that when the amendment was made in '87, Mr. Uruski, had the times been needed at that time, then I am sure these amendments, or parts of them, would have been enacted into the bill, into the amendment at that time. At that time, too, in referring to his amendments in 1 987, he asked the members of the _House, if there were some further suggestions that honourable members would make during the debate , that he would be pleased to enter these suggestions.

Well, I would gather then that in 19 87 there were no problems from the members in the House and from the government in place now, from the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) and from other members from across the way, so the bill was amended for the times, for 19 87. * (1 600) I say to you, too, and there are perhaps other amendments that could be made, but we will have to wait and see whether the times and the needs are going to be there for amendments to this act.

We constantly are getting requests for changes to this bill and that bill and we have to be able to provide not only for the people and the farmers of Manitoba, for the livestock people, but for everybody in this province when it comes to making amendments to

an act. Another part that I would like to comment on, the Manitoba Sheep Association, and I will go from the act itself and the amendment. It has a fair bit of concern about dogs and stray dogs killing their sheep. This act does still contain-a nd this

section was not changed- the ability for any livestock owner, that if a dog is destroying their sheep or any other animals, they have the right to destroy that dog. Wel l, Madam Deputy Speaker, we can get ar gumen ts about that one. There are people who-or perhaps it would show a better control for farmers around the areas where there may be sheep or any other livestock. Having two or three dogs in their yard and allowing them to go out and wander around and attack the different livestock, I would say that retaining that part of the act was perhaps the thing to do.

We are saying that if you are going to let your dogs stray and go two, three, four or five miles and kill a sheep, mangle a sheep, who is going to pay for that? The sheepherder can say, well then, either you pay for it, or I destroy your dog, or I get

May 23, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2430 compensation through private insurance. When it comes to stray pets, dogs and cats, there is no need for that to be in the act. The Municipal Act has its own ways to develop. I rem ember as mayor, one of the biggest concerns of many people was the stray animals within the community. It was up to us to handle it and we did so, not only for the protection of the people, but for the protection of the farmers, the livestock. Right around Riverton itself there are farms with cattle.

We had to go out and act, as a village, as mayor and council, to be able to protect these people from stray dogs and such killing their livestock. It is not like we were having dogs wander around right here in Winnipeg, Madam Deputy Speaker, where there is no livestock or such, or chickens or sheep. In rural communities there are all types of dogs. Dogs are a common part of the farm . Stray dogs that go out and destroy other animals should be dealt with in the proper manner.

The fact, Madam Deputy Speaker-on closing, the one part that I find strange is that nothing was mentioned in this act of the semen being included, the government saying, well, there is no sense putting that in, the protection for the farmer on that point. We do not want to just out and out take it away from the farmer, so we might as well privatize the semen production and the semen regulation. We wonder why this government would not include part of the act to im prove the situation for farmers in that regard.

We wonder how privatizing this part of the farmers' abili ty to receive a reproducing system-I feel that the farmers are getting jilted by this. It is now going to cost them that much more. It is going to increase their costs. The government on the other side says, it is not going to, but if you look at the fact of the service, the service that was there running it through the government side of it, the service was there, the availability was there for the farmers. Now they have to go out and go to a private organization for this, and it is going to cost them more. It is going to cost them more in the long run.

Madam Deputy Speaker, again, in 19 87, when Mr. Uruski did do the amendment-now I would like to make a comment or quote from him from the amendment at that time.

The artificial insemination part of the act has also been amended to confirm the custom that has evolved and is practised regarding designated areas or area protection and technician commitment to provide an opportunity for all producers to obtain semen and embryos for -(interjection) - if I may continue, Madam Deputy Speaker-to allow for the improvement of livestock breeding and government purchase and sale of livestock and to regulate the use and sale of semen and embryos for artificial insemination and embryo transfer purposes. In 19 87, the powers that were in force then were needed at that time.

It gave the farmers, as I mentioned, protection. It gave them service for artificial insemination. Now it is going to cost them, and it is going to cost them more. I would like to think that the present government-on closing, I would like to make comment that the amendments to the act are perhaps in place for improvement and have been an improvement to the act. I would like to see perhaps any further amendments that this government, in listening and consulting with people and municipalities and such organizations, follow the needs and the requirements of all the people of Manitoba.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett ), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. *( 16 10 ) Biii 35-The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), Bill 35, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg, standing in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. Agreed. Biii 36- The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), Bill 36, The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe

2431 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 23, 1991 d'aide juridique du Manitoba, standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Leave? Agreed. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasur e today that I stand to speak on Bill 36 put forward by the government, spoken to just a couple of weeks ago by the Minister of Justice.

Of course, this deals with the Legal Aid Services Society in this province, a society which offers and administers a legal aid program for impecunious individuals who find themselves faced with either gr ave consequences as a result of le gal proceedings, most notably criminal proceedings, or indeed those who do not have the means to fund cases which appear to have some likelihood of success in the civil field, and there is a sense of justice on their side, which the Legal Aid Society funds them for. The other aspect, Mr.

Speaker, of the Legal Aid Services Society, in recent times, has been the Public Interest Law Centre. The Public Interest Law Centre arose in 19 82 and has been spearheaded by a very capable individual, Mr. Amie Peltz. That has been a very significant new addition to the portfolio of services offered by the Legal Aid Society. Mr. Speaker, that is not to say that the Legal Aid Society has been without controversy in the past; that is not to say that it proceeds today without controversy. We have in Manitoba a system, which I think we can be proud of and which has served us well. That is a dual-track system.

That means that we offer both in-house duty counsel services from lawyers employed full time by the Legal Aid Society. As well, we offer access to the private bar through a certificate system, and that is indeed a very effective, very fair way to offer Legal Aid services. I was disturbed in September of 19 87 when the report came forward and Mr.

Sloan was the author of that report, which, while it stopped short of recommending pulling back on the dual- track system, the private bar system, did make some comments which could lead the policymakers to conclude that it might be more economically efficient to handle all Legal Aid cases in house by staff lawyers. Mr.

Speaker, I acknowledge that there may be, and I say "mayn be, some economic advantages to doing all Legal Aid cases within house counsel, but if, and it is a big "if,nit is more cost efficient, it is hardly worth the cost of losing the significant advantage that we offer in this province to those people who are forced to turn to Legal Aid to be able to choose their lawyer, and that is a right that everyone else has in society, yet those who come before Legal Aid panels in other provinces do not have that right.

We have consistently maintained that right in this province, and I think we should be proud of that, and I think we should be willing to invest any additional funds to a reasonable amount if indeed that is the case to preserve that dual- track system. Mr. Speaker, I say it as a big "if,n because I have read the Sloan report of 19 87. I am not convinced that the conclusions therein were based on thorough and appropriate criteria for determining which is more cost effective, which is more efficient in terms of serving Legal Aid clients.

Given that principle, the principle that I ask all members to accept and which I believe the government of the day does and presumably the former administration, now the official opposition, also does because they instituted it, that is the dual-track system of offering Legal Aid services, that we want to preserve that as much as possible, there is some work to do with respect to Legal Aid. There are some problems. The system in place in dealing with the private bar which serves a large number of Legal Aid clients--1 do not believe it is quite half, 50 percent, but it is close-is a very, very poor system indeed.

It is totally ad hoe. When there is a problem between the private bar and the government of the day that funds Legal Aid primarily, it has to get to a crisis before anything happens. The private bar has to turn to its association, the Bar Association, and the Law Society to advocate on their behalf with the government most not ably overtime for tariff increases in Legal Aid fees. If that does not work and if those pleas fall on deaf ears, then they have to do drastic things like threate n withdrawal of services. That is truly unfortunate.

What we need is a regular process by which any of the grievances of the private bar about the Legal Aid system are allowed to come forward in an organized, regular fashion, and that was, I think, a significant defect in the original plan, that that process was not put into place, and, if need be, a process of appeal to some body to determ ine what the appropriate rate would be. We ha ve advoca ted from our pa rty the establishment of an arbitration process for doctors.

May 23, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2432 I do not suggest that the Legal Aid services are the same essential services, but I do suggest that there should be some formalized process in place. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James has the floor. Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There should be some process in place. The former Attorney General, now the Dean of the Law School, under the former administration, never did that. He never put in a formalized process to deal with the concerns of the private bar.

The private bar on a regular basis had to, because it was a crisis situation, threaten withdrawal of services, and that is not an appropr iate way over the long term to deal with those on the Legal Aid panel. I have spoken at length with Mr. Fineblit, who is the Executive Director of Legal Aid. We have canvassed this issue. He tells me that many, if not all, ofthe board members and mostofthe staff would pr efer a regular ized syste m in which the government was a participant to deal with concerns of the private bar, so that it did not take a crisis for these matters to come forward.

If we look at what is happening around the country-and I have with me today some excerpts from the National magazine of April 19 91 which is entitled at the top of the page, Legal Aid Crisis. Then it proceeds to go through a numb er of provinces and talks about Quebec, Alber ta, Newfoundland and B.C. and, finally, there is an

article in here about Manitoba. It talks about the latest uncanvassed reduction of the tariff. Mr. Speaker, when I say uncanvassed, I mean that the government of the day made no efforts to consult with those in the community, those who provide the services, before they reduced a tariff fee. Now I do not suggest that the Bar Association was likely to agree to that reduction. I do not suggest that, but that is not an excuse for not consulting.

The advantage of consulting and of putting your cards on the table and saying, we do not have enough money, we have to find some ways to reduce the cost; once the objections are dealt with, the cost is worth it and there should be further expenditures. Once that hurdle is gotten over, then I think you can trust that the participants would, at the very least, come forward with some alternative ways to cut some money. I do not think they would have turned their back on that offer.

I think they would have in good faith tried to find other ways to cut fees; but to slash fees in one area of the Legal Aid tariff, which makes very little sense at all without any prior consultation, can only further inflame the private bar, who are on the Legal Aid panel, some 800-and-some lawyers in this province.

It can only do further damage to the long-term ongoing relationship between the private bar and the province if we are to maintain a dual- track system. * (1 620) My suspicion, and I say suspicion because I hope it is not true, is that the hidden agenda, in doing this kind of slashing without consultation, without much sense, is to force the private bar to come to another crisis situation, to threaten withdrawal of services, and then to allow them to do that and to turn this into a one-track system that would not allow those who come to Legal Aid to have any choice of their lawyer. They

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-49
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 49.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8b14665466d805e1d5998fb1a3b00a7d968246c0

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