Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 87 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-87

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. 87 2:30p.m., Thursday, April 11th, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3LB Bl RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 222a Princess Ave., arandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1Ui' CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD H arvey P atterson NDP 97a Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man.

ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. as Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St. S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man.

ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1 KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Tu rnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135- 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1Wa RHINE LAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W.

Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Ya RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1 EO ST. BONIFACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George M inaker P.C. 31a Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3Ja ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C.

NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 41a Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOURIS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Re ne E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man.

ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ran McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,Thompson RaN OGa TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson NDP 6a1 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO BA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, April 11, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2377 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 12 student s, Grade 11 standing of the Si sler School. Trese students are under the direction of Mr. Brown. This school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minis ter of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. We also have 26 students of Grade 11 standing of the Riverton Collegiate.

Tl ese students are under the direction of Mr. Gustaw and Mrs. Lyprypa. This school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for St. George, the Min ister respon sible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here today. Presenting petitions; Reading and receiving petitions; Presenting reports by Standing and Spec ial Committees; Minis terial Statements and Tabling of Reports. TABLING OF REPORT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mini ster. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Ros smere): Well, Mr.

Speaker, if it meet s with the concurrence of the House, I would like to table the report of the City of Winni peg Boundaries Review Commis sion. I have the one report, one copy here, additional copie s wi ll be available, if they aren't already, before 5:00 p. m. this afternoon. So on that basis, if it's agreed I will table this report. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Minis terial Statements or Tabling of Re ports? Introduction of Bills. Questions. RETURNS TO ORDERS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mini ster. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I have Returns to Orders of the House and with your permissi on, Sir, I would like to table these Return to Orders Nos. 65, 66, 67, 68, 70, 71, 73, 74, 76, 77, 78 and 80. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposit ion) (R iver Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Re source s as Ministe r who answers for the Manitoba Development Corporation. I wonder if he can indicate whether the Man itoba Development Corporation has turned down a request by Saunders Ai rcraft for addi tional funding.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Mini ster of Mines, Re sources and Env ironmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker , I'm advised today that the Manitoba Development Corporation Board has approved interim financing for Saunders Ai rcraft Lim ited . MR. SPIVAK: By way of a supplementary then - or by way of another question, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister can confirm that the government instructed the Development Corporation to in fact provide the interim financi ng. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, no. And, Mr.

Speaker, the understanding that I have with the Manitoba Development Corporation Board is that if ever money is advanced as a re sult of government prerogative - in other words, if they recommend that an advance be made and the government for reasons which are not considered by the Development Corporati on to be acceptable, asks the Development Corporat ion to proceed, that when and if that does occur it will always be made plain that that particular financing was done at government request and without board approval. That is not what occurred in this particular case. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, by way of another question to the Mini ster, I wonder if he would be prepared to confirm the amount that has been funded; and further whether this matter was discussed wi th him according to the guidelines that he announced in the Legisla ture

2378 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ... earlier in the session. April 11, 1974 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the amount is in the neighborhood of $2 million; that the matter was discussed with me over a period of time, including today. MR. SPIVAK: Yes. I wonder if the Minister can indicate what he means by interim financing, and I believe that's what he used, the terminology he used, with respect to this particular matter. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are several developmen ts relative to Saunders Aircraft which I can't review in great detail, and the interim financing has to do with studying the effect of those developmen ts and maintaining the operations of the corporation. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder - is the Minister suggesting that the $2 million that's going to be funded, or will be funded by the Manitoba Development Corporation, is capable of being paid back? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, with every advance that is made by the Manitoba Development Corporation or by any financial institution, there is never a guarantee that recovery will be made, so when the honourable member asks that question, I would assume that the board felt that under the circumstances at present that the advance of $2 million was justified in the best interests of the position of the board relative to that corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H.

AS PER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Will the Minister re spon sible for the MDC confirm that at a meeting of the Manitoba Development Corporation Board to review the application of Saunders for a loan of $45 million, that the board unanimously turned down the loan? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I've indicated today, and my information is from the chairman of the board, that the board, by decision of the board, has approved interim finan cing for Saunders Aircraft. I don't Mr. Speaker, wish to deal with matter s which are outside of the scope of what I have said at the present time. MR.

AS PER: Could the Minister tell us when the board met to make the decision that he has just announced. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I understand from the Chairman that it wa s a polled de cision. MR. AS PER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is; was the Board of Directors of Manitoba Development Corporation informed that if they did not agree to the interim loan that has been approved now, that Saunders would be forced to close and could not meet it s pay roll. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not make that statement to them, but I don't wish the answer to be in any way misleading, Mr. Speaker.

I assume that when the board was polled for its decision that they discussed all of the contingencies and I cannot say since I spoke to none of the board members with the exception of the Chairman of the Board who spoke to me this morning - who spoke to me, Mr. Chairman, principally because he said that yesterday's story that the corporation was not going to receive any additional funds, created a situation which had to be dealt with in terms of the operations of the company on an ongoing basis; that various matters probably could have been taken up between the chairman and the various member s of the board.

But if the honourable member is asking me whether I or anybody in the government made that statement to them, I can tell them that anybody in the MDC--(Int erjection) --Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not know the conversations that took place between the chairman and the members of the board, but I believe that the members of the board are fully cognizant of the entire situation vis-a-vis Saunders Aircraft. MR.

AS PER: I wonder if the Minister would undertake to enquire of the chairman of the circumstances under which the board members were requested, or told, that a loan had to be made, otherwise Saunders would close immediately, and report on the accuracy or inac curacy of that assumption. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I will not do that, Mr. Speaker. No. A MEMBER: No, I wouldn't either. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (B irtle-Rus sell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operative Development.

I would like to ask the Minist er has the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board entered into any agreements with the Department of

April 11, 1974 2379 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ... Co-operative Development for the collection of fish from the various fishing stations on behalf of the various northern fishing co-operatives? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I don't believe the corporation does enter into agreements with the department.

Any agreements entered into I would presume would be with the local co-operative boards who operate the facili ties in northern Manitoba, although it may be that the department has assisted in any negotiation s that have taken place. I am not aware of any agreements having been arrived at to date, al though that is possible. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary question. Has the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board paid any moneys to the Department of Co-operative Development for such collection? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid I'll have to ask the honourable member for clari- fication.

He referred to collection and I'm not sure what he means by that. MR. GRAHAM: For the collection of fish from the various fishing stations. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid I still don't understand his question. MR. GRAHAM: One further supplementary. I might ask the Minister to take note of this as well if he could. Has the government in turn, if they have received any money from the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board for this duty, have they paid that money in turn to the various northern co-ops? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware that the government receives any money from the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, so unless there's something that has recently happened that I'm not aware of, I'm afraid I'll have to take the whole matter as a matter of notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources in charge of the MDC. Can he indicate whether the government has any other loan guarantees to Saunders Aircraft by way of guarantee of loans that Saunders may have from a bank - any of the banks? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that all of the up-to-date information was made available to members at the meeting that was held by the Economic Development Committee, and I believe that between that date and today's information, which indicated additional $2 mil lion, that that takes care of all of the present commitments of the government vis-a-vis Saunders Aircraft. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in round terms then could the Minister confirm whether in round terms this brings the total government commitment to Saunders to about $18 million since their annual report shows 16. MR. GREEN: Sixteen was the figure that was used at the last meeting and I think that two million dollars is the figure that has been committed since that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Mines Minister.

Will he confirm that the Board of Directors of the MDC prior to today's announcement had reached the conclusion and made the decision that Saunders was not vizble and should be closed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I indicated in answer to members of the House on several occasions in the past the position vis-a-vis Saunders Aircraft. I indicated that the process relative to that particular application had never terminated, and that is the only statement that I could make relative to the corporation, and in doing so, Mr.

Speaker, I keep in mind that my information to the House has to be to some extent guided by the commercial interests of the company itself. MR. ASPER: Will the Mines Minister confirm that the General Manager or rather Chairman of Saunders Aircraft applying to the MDC is none other than the Chairman of MDC? And is there not some conflict of interest in this case? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that the Chairman of - Mr. Parsons is also the Chairman of Saunders. I thought it was Mr. Kersey. But I could be wrong.

The honourable member is stating that , it's possible that I•m wrong, But it is absolutely no conflict of interest recognized by the

2380 April 11, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cant' d). . . Manitoba Development Corporation that when they had that amount of money involved in a corporation and essentially government controlled that members of their boards .of directors sit on the boards of each of these corporations. As a matter of fact I think that that is done in almost every case without exception. MR. ASPER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, in the light of the Minister's answers.

Has the government, or the MDC, commissioned an independent study of the poten tial for Saunders airplanes in world markets as a preparatory step to making a final decision as to whether to fold it or to carry on with it? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there was such an independent study made prior to the Mani toba Government embarking, or the Development Corporation embarking on the Saunders Air craft project.

I assume, because I believe that the members of the Development Corporation are very talented people, that in terms of whatever future commitments they will make they will take into consideration all things which they think are necessary to take into consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources. I believe he said in answer to one of the questions that the payment of $2 million was in terim funding, that there was a loan application for substantially more money than the two million.

Can I now ask him whether the Board, the Manitoba Development Corporation at least, will now be considering a further application from Saunders for an amount of money over and above the $2 million that has just been funded? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that's possible, but I cannot say at the present time. do want to try to not leave any misimpressions. The procedure relative to the previous application had never actually terminated. That is the entire procedure relative to an application of this kind. This is one of those applications, Mr.

Speaker, whereby since it is the disposal under certain circumstances of an asset in which the government has considerable share equity, that the procedure is finalized at the ministerial leveL It had never been finalized and therefore you take that part of my answer as being complementary to the earlier answer that I gave. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister is in the position for this fiscal year to project what the additional capital requirements, or borrowing requirements, will be from the Manitoba Development Corporation until March 31st of 1975? MR.

GREEN: There is a request for Capital SUpply that is going to be considered in the Committee of Supply which deals with supply to the Development Cor poration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Well the Minister may want to answer in the way he did; he may have mis understood my questions, so if I could I'd like to phrase the question again and then he can either say that his answers stands, or he may want to answer it in a different way.

In dealing with Saunders Aircraft I wonder for this fiscal year ending March 31st, 1975, if he's in a position to indicate what additional funding will be required by Saunders Aircraft over and above the $2 million that has been now funded? MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I misunderstood the member, I thought he was referring to the Development Corporation. That, Mr. Speaker, would depend on whatever program is approved by the Manitoba Development Corporation . There can be different con tingencies and different types of programs that could be discussed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR.

STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I want to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Services. I wonder if the Minister would indicate at what level hospital budget increases will be held this year following the announcement of flexibility some time ago that it would be imposing an eight percent ceiling. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Health Services Commission are the ones that are seized of this.

They are dealing directly with the hospitals and when they come forward with any change in their proposals, we'll have to deal with it at that time. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is it correct that wage settlements

April 11, 1974 2381 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ..• currently negotiated coupled with increased cost of supplies would push the budget requirements up by about 25 percent for this year? MR. MILLER: I am not aware of that, Mr. Speaker. I know there are some wage settlements taking place. How they affect the total budget I'm not sure because the wage settle ment of one particular group may have a minor impact or it may have a major impact, depending on what ratio they are in proportion to the total cost. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary.

What action is the Minister planning to deal with the situation of escalating hospital costs and still maintain the best possible service for the people? MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is a dilemma. The costs are rising. We recog nize that and that's one of the realities with which the governing boards of hospitals have to live. I know that they have a great problem dealing with these matters and I'm sure however they're doing the best they can in order to cope with the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the same Minister. What steps has the government taken in regard to the current labour negotia tions taking place between the Health Sciences Centre and the non-professional workers at the centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Health and Social Development is not involved in these negotiations at all. The negotiations take place between the boards of the hospital, who are the employers, and the union or group of employees who are working for that particular hospital. MR. BROWN: I have a question to the same "Minister.

Can the Minister tell me whether any emergency preparations have been made in the event that a strike does occur. MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Minister. MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, again this is not something that the department deals with directly. I would assume that the Manitoba Health Organization, that is the Hospital Association, would look at this problem if it did occur and would take the necessary steps to deal with the problem should it ever arise. The local board certainly would have a responsibility to contact other hospitals to see what arrangements could be made. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister res ponsible for the Communi ties Economic Development Fund, and I wonder if he would clarify to set the record straight on this question. Is it a fact or would he confirm that the $75, 000 loss, fire loss, suffered by Schmidt Cartage, the company to which CEDFhadadvancedf unds , that the fire loss was uninsured and that the CEDF is absorbing a full loss on that. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe I was asked that question before and I indicated I would give an answer. I am not of that present knowledge, that is not my information, but I'll certainly check it with the Fund again and try to get an answer for the honourable member. MR. ASPER: I thank the Minister for taking it as notice.

I wonder if he would also take as notice and report to the House if he finds that that is the case as has been suggested, would he indicate to us how a loan could be made by the CEDF where no insurance was taken, fire insurance, on the assets of the company and has anybody in the CEDF been removed or replaced as a result of this, if that is the case. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, of course the honourable member's question is predicated on the fact that there would be no insurance.

If that indeed is the case then I will have to answer to the honourable friend, I was advised by one of the media yesterday that the reverse is the case. But I think we should get accurate information - I'll get it for the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs. In view of the information and documents released this morning in the Economic Development Committee, could the Minister tell the House whether he or members of his political staff had discussion with Mr. Don Mcivor and Mr.

Ben Thompson prior to their submission of affidavits to that committee? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, .... .. House to make a.

2382 April 11, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. AXWORTHY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, was the Minister about to. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The member on the floor. The Honourable Member for Radisson. CORRECTION- VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS- NO. 38 MR . SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, on March 25th, I made a change in the Economic Development Committee and the Votes and Proceedings did not indicate that change.

There fore I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Churchill, that Votes and Pro ceedings, No. 38, of the Sitting of Monday, March 25, 1974, be corrected by adding the following immediately after prayers: Order that the name of Honourable Mr. McBryde be sub stituted for that of Mr. Barrow on the list of names to comprise the members of Standing Committee on Economic Development. And, Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to draw attention to Votes and Proceedings No. 49. It is that when the change was made - Mr.

Barrow for that of Mr. .Evans - it says the list of names to compromise - it is to comprise, it is not to compromise. MOTION presented and carried. ORAL QUESTIONS (cont'

d) HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we could get the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge to repeat his allegations so I could hear it correctly. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I'd be very pleased to repeat my question, and the question is this: Considering the information and documents released this morning, or the testimony given this morning by the Chairman of the Communities Economic Development, would the Minister tell us whether he or members of his political staff had discussions with Mr.

Ben Thompson and Mr. Don Mcivor prior to their submission of affidavits concerning their involvement in the Wabowden Affair, to that committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, I guess it's a good thing I asked for clarification because it's still not clear. I'm not quite clear in the connection of the documents tabled this morning in the committee of this House and their relationship between the question. I'm not aware of any discussions by myself or my executive assistant with the two gentlemen in regards to their affidavits. MR. AXWORTHY: I've a supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. Has the Minister in view of the testimony this morning by the Chairman of the Communities Economic Development Fund, that Mr. Mcivor made inaccurate and untrue statements ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Let me indicate that one of the rules is that a committee that hasn't reported, that matter is not used in debate, and is not also not utilized before as a question. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: May I rephrase my question then, Mr. Speaker, in view of your ruling. Has the Minister now suspended Mr.

Don Mcivor from his contractual arrangements with the Department of Northern Affairs considering the charges made against him this morning in the Communities Economic Development Fund? MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I don't see it is a cause to have someone dismissed as an employee of the Department of Northern Affairs because the Leader of the Opposition states at a committee meeting that he thinks that person had given incorrect information. I think that if in fact that - the fact is that many persons have given incorrect information. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition state his matter of privilege? MR. SPIVAK: Yes. The Honourable Minister has made reference to a statement or an allegation made by myself. For the record I think, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister may recall, he may recall exactly what took place, the Chairman of the Communities Economic Develop ment Fund, Mr. Parasiuk, said that Mr. Mcivor had made an incorrect statements. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The honourable Member state his point of order? MR. SHAFRANSKY: The Leader of the Opposition ... MR.

SPIVAK: I stand by the statement that I made that the chairman said that Mr.

April 11, 1974 2383 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd). . Mcivor had made incorrect statements. He said that. And I would ask the Honourable Member who was chairman, and who may not have been listening at the time, to look at the Hansard and determine for himself whether my statement is accurate or not. The Chairman of the Communities Economic Development Fund said that Mr. Mcivor had made statements that were incorrect. MR. AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary to the Minister responsible for the Economic Development Fund.

Considering the involvement now of the Department of Northern Affairs, does he intend to call the Minister of Northern Affairs to testify or to speak before that committee at its next meeting? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm sure the honourable member realizes that question is totally out of order. --(Interjection)-- Why? I would ask him to take a good look at Citation 171, one does not ask one Minister to tell another Minister. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR.

AXWORTHY: My point of order is, I did not ask, I said, would the Minister responsible for that committee sort of request the Minister of Northern Affairs to appear be fore that committee and testify. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, in conjunction with the inaccurate statements that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition, by Mr. Allison, by the Member for Fort Rouge, by myself from time to time, by other members in this House, I do not consider it grounds for dismissal or for punative procedure, to say that somebody has made an inaccurate statement. MR.

AXWORTHY: On that point of order. Mr. Speaker, I have asked the Minister if he was going to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs to appear before the Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I dislike my honourable friend's question as much as he dislikes my answer. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister responsible for the Communities Economic Development Fund. Does he still stand by the information which he put before that committee, or that was put before the Committee, in the form of the sworn affidavits by Mr.

Mclvor and Mr. Thompson? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on all relevant matters I would say that the information that has been put before the committee substantiates to a degree which I would not have considered was possible, the position that the allegations made by the Leader of the Opposition were totally unfounded. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to tbe Minister for Northern Affairs. In view of the fact that Mr.

Don Mcivor went on CKTV and said publicly that his affidavit was not correct - in other words, he contradicted his own affidavit - does the Minister not think first of all, that that gentleman should be called before the Committee, and secondly, that he should be suspended from his job? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I would have to admit to the Honourable Member that I have given up watching CKY TV; and the answer to his second question is no, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please.

Let me indicate to the Honourable Members if they want me to chair this forum, they'll have to co-operate so I can hear what is going on, because it's impossible to adjudicate when there's just one loud hum and noise from all sides of the House, and the Member that is speaking is just inaudible under that kind of a din; and the members that are nodding their heads, I would hope that they would participate in what they are nodding to. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. JOHNSTON: My question is directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I'm asking him in view of the serious nature of the matter of my previous question , will he not give a serious answer ? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the answer I gave was probably more

2384 April 11 , 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .•• serious than the question that was asked. The answer to the question was no, but I don't think the honourable member could hear it because of the noise that you just referred to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources.

In view of the gusto with which he answered the questions before, regarding the allegation, I wonder if he's now prepared to allow a judicial inquiry to determine properly, under oath, with full documentation, the allegations that have been made by Mr. Allison. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I have tried to indicate to the honourable member, Mr.

Speaker, that I'm trying to be as serious about this matter as he would like me to be, but I do not consider that it is reasonable to have an investigation, a judicial inquiry, every time there is a charge relative to the operations of a company which is financed by either the Manitoba Development Corporation or the Communities Economic Development Fund. If the Fund indicates that nothing has been done which is wrong, and that indication comes through in a way which is reasonable to all concerned or to a majority of those concerned, Mr. Speaker then I do not see the need for a judicial inquiry.

To adopt another course, Mr. Speaker, would -- and I have advised the honourable member of this on several occasions, there are numerous people who are dissatisfied with their treatment from the Manitoba Development Corporation, there are numerous people who are dissatisfied with their treatment from other funding agencies, and it is impossible for the government to accede to a suggestion that when such allegations are made there be a judicial inquiry. The original allegation, Mr.

Speaker, appeared to be that there was a distribution of material gratis to people in the north in order to get their support during an election campaign. There isn't a scintilla of evidence that is correct, and we have no intention of conducting a judicial inquiry into that kind of allegation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Mines and Resources, as House Leader of the Party as well.

I wonder if he is prepared now, in view of the admission now that some of the information furnished by the directors of the Communities Economic Development Fund was incorrect, to now allow the directors to come before the Committee of the Legislature so that they can, in person, explain the situation and be allowed to be examined by the members of the Committee. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the directors concerned to my information, orginally wanted to make statements of their own to have press conferences and to try to deal in that way with the scurrilous allegations which had been made against them. We told them that the matter could be answered through Committee; they did so. Mr. Speaker, I do not consider the inaccura cies that have been indicated by the Chair�an of the Manitoba Development Corporation to be of such a nature or to be relevant to the charges as would indicate that they themselves - that is the inaccuracies - constitute grounds for some type of inquiry.

It is perhaps as a result of my experience in the courts of the land that I know that a person can make an inaccurate state ment under oath quite innocently and on a point which is not material to the issue, and is able later to explain his inaccuracy and it is not considered a serious matter or such as would re sult in a judicial inquiry. That is true of the affidavits of Mr. Allison, some suggestion vis a-vis Mr. Mcivor; with regard to Mr. Thompson still an argument. But all on points which do not bear to the heart of the allegations and which are not material to the issue before the Committee.

And on that basis, Mr. Speaker, it would be unconscionable to hold a judicial inquiry into those inaccuracies. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister is in a position to inform the House whether he has had an opportunity to talk to either Mr. Thompson or Mr. Mcivor, since their affidavit to deal with the evidence that they presented. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I'll go through the litany. I spoke to Mr. Thompson at one meeting - I think it was the day that his affidavits were prepared. I said to him "Hello." I may have said, "How are you?" I spoke to Mr.

Mcivor outside of the Legislative Building after his affidavit was sworn. I said hello and I said this is the first real fight as to whether people, small ordinary people in northern Manitoba, are going to be treated with the same

April 11, 1974 2385 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ... respect as people in other parts of the province. That was the end of my conversation with Mr. Mcivor. The material that is presently before Communities Economic Development Committ ee convinces me, Mr. Speaker, that the Fund handled that particular loan account in a manner which I find highly agreeable.

In other words, I think they did a better job than I thought they were doing, and certainly there isn't a scintilla of evidence of the charge whereby it was originally brought before the House that someone was trying to buy votes by the distribution of materiaL MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister is in a position to indicate whether he has read Mr. Kregeris' letter to the Fund that was delivered last night in reply-- (Interjection)--by Mr. Kregeris. Delivered by Mr.

Kregeris, prepared, as far as I know, by him and at the request of the Fund, dealing with the presentation by the Communities Economic Development Fund of their side of the story, including the affidavits, at the first meeting of the ... MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I just glanced at the letter; I saw it this morning. May I indicate, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Kregeris' complaints as I have read them do not relate to the charge that was made by the Leader of the Opposition. It relates to the management of the Fund vis-a-vis--Mr. Speaker, I didn't read today's letter; I will read it.

But I have many such letters - many such letters by people who have complained vis-a-vis the treatment that they have received from Manitoba Development Corporation or other funding institutions. And, Mr. Speaker, I tell you that these funding institutions cannot be operated, cannot be operated if, every time a person feels ill done by, by one of them, he is able to get a judicial inquiry as to what happened. The simple fact is that Mr. Kregeris had no need to have his organization controlled by the Communities Economic Development Corporation.

Any time he paid the money that the people of Manitoba had advanced him, he was outside of the control of that corporation. And, Mr. Speaker, it is just not possible to run tre Development Corporation- and my position vis-a-vis many many people who have phoned me and said that they wanted me to talk to the Development Corporation, my answer has been, Mr. Speaker, without exception that you will go to the Development Corporation and you will deal with them. If they have done something improper vis-a-vis your position, you will have rights at law. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I do know ... MR.

SPEAKER: I wonder if I may appeal to the honourable gentleman. He's making too lengthy a reply and the reason is because the question has been posed in suet a manner that it raises this kind of an answer, and I think that both sides have been abusing the question period in regard to this particular matter. The Honourable Member for Rhneland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a further question for the Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder if he could tell us whether the government at present is undertaking any studies to investigate the rising costs of health care in Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker. There is no need really to investigate or study this rise. This rise will take place, if it does, because of contract signing or because of other inflationary influences. If they take place they'll be well-known. lt' s not a matter of investi gating them or studying them, it's the impact of this inflation which really concerns us and which concerns every hospital board that has to cope with it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Mines Minister.

In the light of this answer as to what he does not consider applicable to inquiry, does he consider it worthwhile inquiring into a stated complaint that a member of the New Democratic Party was given favouritism in a loan from the Communities Economic Development Fund, in a loan that would not by a rati onal measure be made? I'm speaking of the Schmidt Cartage loan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Communities Economic Development Corporation makes loans by decision of the Board of Directors.

A week ago a question was asked by a member of this House as to whether we interfered with that decision-making with respect to a particular loan relative to Thompson and this was where some Mr. Schulz was alleged to have written a letter to try and find out about a particular loan. Generally, generally speaking, Mr. Speaker and I can say that within the guidelines as between us and the Fund, we permit that board to deal with loan applications, and one of the inarticulate guidelines is that they shall not discri minate against people who are members of the New Democratic Party.

2386 April 11, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, while the Minister is doing that investigation, might he also inquire as to whether a loan was applied for by a member of the New Democratic Party turned down, and then that member of the New Democratic Party was put on the board and the same loan was approved to his brother-in-law? MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what investigation the honourable member has referred to as a prelude to his question because I don't think that in my previous answer I said that I was going to investigate. As to the second question that he raises, Mr.

Speaker, the Communities Economic De velopment Corporation, to my understanding vis-a-vis the loan that the honourable member is referring to, originally considered a loan which had a Mr. Ben Thompson, a member of the Board of Directors, as being an applicant. They then obtained advice, and I think that they will indicate - although I can't recall it - that the advice was obtained from me, that a person who is a board member cannot .be an applicant for a loan. Although that is permissible ap parently under the MDC Act, it is not permissible under the CED.C Act.

A subsequent loan application was made vis-a-vis the brother-in-law of this member to be incorporated, and the board considered it and granted it. Now, Mr. Speaker, that question was asked a year ago by the Honourable Member for Tl:ompson at that time, Mr. Borowski. I at that time announced that the loan was not made to Mr. Ben Thompson, it was made to his brother-in-law to be incorporated. I have also as certained, Mr.

Speaker, that it would be difficult to loan money to sort of people forward citizens in northern Manitoba of the native community without having relatives involved, be cause many of them are related to one another, but nevertheless Mr. Speaker, the Communities Economic Development Fund Board, for good or for bad - and this is one of the things that we knew when we set up the fund - approved of that loan. It was one that did not have to come to the Minister because apparently it was $75, 000 on the nose. They approved of that loan. It went bad. I would expect, Mr.

Speaker, that some of the other loans of the Communties Economic Development Fund will also go bad even though they possibly may be to Liberals and Conservatives, and the reason is, Mr.

Speaker, that when we set up this Fund we all agreed that we were going to give the northerners an opportunity to participate in decision-making, important decisi on-making, relative to having northern entrepreneurship developed in that part of the province and that they would have the same opportunity of making the kind of mistakes that Donald Macdonald makes when he buys oil at a figure which he shouldn't have bought at, or when the Parliament of Canada has horses on the payroll , or other things of that nature. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Again, again I appeal to the honourable member not to make his answer so long, and I ask the honourable members who are asking questions that they ask questions in conformity with our rules, things that are urgent that have to have an answer now. There are other ways of getting information in this Chamber and if any of them do require assistance, if they will come and see melwill inform them how they can obtain information; there's a number of other procedures that can be utilized. But I think the question period should not be abused in this manner. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, I concur with your comment and I will ask a question, I will ask the question. . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the question that I asked took about 15 seconds to ask and it took an answer that should have been just as long. I will now ask a question .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. If the honourable member has a question I'll entertain it. MR. ASPER: Mr ..

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines for which I ask a yes or no answer, is: will he confirm to the House that the loan in question, the $75, 000 loan in question, was lost? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker I know that the firm is in receivership. I expect that we will take a loss on that loan. I gather, Mr. Speaker, that when the Manitoba Development Corpora tion loaned money to a company controlled by Rod Mclssacs, I believe it was, and he was a

April 11, 1974 2387 ORAL QUESTION S (MR. GREEN cont' d) ... Member of the Bo ard of Directors, and a very sophisticated business man, we lost money, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assinibo ia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minist er of Health and Social Services. Has the Minister received any complaints or requests about the need to increase tr aining facilities in Manitoba for doctors specializing in geriatrics, senior citizens? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MIL LER: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not received such a request.

I imagine a request, I think I would say a request such as that ·would go to the University of Manitoba where that training would take place. MR. PATRICK: A supplemen tary. Is the Minister giving consideration to the establish ment of a department of gerontology at the University of Manitoba? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, this Minister does not consider those things. The Univer sity of Manitoba itself, through its Senate and its Bo ard of Governors, would consider that and if they wished to do so and felt it desirable, they would then come forward through the University Grants Co mmission with that proposal. MR.

GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, just on a short point of order, I have been accepting the st atement by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that somehow the applicant for this loan was a member of the New Democratic Party. I have no such knowledge; I just don't want that to go as an acceptance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G 0 JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the First Minister.

In view of his great respect for, well-known respect for parliamentary traditions, could he inform this House as to what the government intends to do about the severe criticism levelled at this Cabinet by Senator Forsey because of the way the Cabinet by-passed the Legislature by way of special warrant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for suggesting that I have great respect for parliamentary institut ions. I hope I do. I would merely reply to my honourable friend the Member for Portage la Prairie by pointing out two things: No. 1.

The authority upon which we proceeded wa s legislation that was drafted in the time of our predeces sors and which was brought to this House, not passed because of prorogation of this Assembly in 1969, we took the legislation, reintroduced it, it is now part of the laws of our province. Therefore, to proceed in accordance with it is legal. Point No. 2 is that I understand that Mr. Forsey would have adopted an altern ative course which I don't believe re ally had any different final effect on parliamentary institutions.

He apparently would have either brought in closure much sooner or, alternatively, he would have prorogued the House for one day, issued the special warrant at a time when the House was not in Session, and then reconvened the House. That, Sir, smacks of an end result which is really not different in substance. In the final ana lysis, either course of action is legal and constitutional, and frankly I would say, Sir, by way of final rejoinder, that for decades, for many long years, closure has always been on the rules and procedures of parliament.

The reason that it is looked at with such askance is that in 1956 it was introduced even before debate had begun on a given issue, which makes all the difference in the world if you introduce it after protracted and lengthy debate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct another question to the First Minister. Be cause he has great faith in precedence, I ask him, does he have a precedent or any other legislature for obtaining money while the Legislature is in session, by special warrant? MR 0 SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, certainly one wo uld have to check precedent in every jurisdiction in the Commonwealth that operates under British Parliamentary Institutions and Procedures. I would simply say, Mr. Speaker, that the fact or the case rests on these two observations: No. 1, legislation was drafted, introduced, reintroduced and passed, it is part of the law. And the second point is that there has got to be, there simply has to be pro vision for obtaining interim supply, and if that requires closure so be it.

And there is ample precedent for closure being brought in judiciously after considerable debate rather than at the very beginning.

2388 April 11, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if I can ask a question of the First Minister as one who is concerned about the parliamentary tradition. I wonder if it is his position that the Cabinet that acted under the War Measures Act and took the citizenship away of Japanese born in Canada in the '40s was doing something that was constitutionally legal. . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I cannot see the relevance of that particular question in this Chamber. Order please. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHR EYER: Mr.

Speaker, if I'm allowed to respond to that gratuitous lecture from the Leader of the Opposition, since he wants to harp back to 1942 I would ask him to research history and he will find that .the only political party at that time that put its neck out on the line in opposition to that kind of discriminatory and abhorrent practice was the CCF. Let there be no mistake about that. MR. SPE AKER: Order please. Order please. I will not entertain any more questions that are going to deal in that kind of debate across the floor of this House.

Now if the honour able members have legitimate questions of urgency that can't be placed any other way, I'll entertain them. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether it's the position of the government that with respect to the manner and the act in which they dealt, that the matter was both legal and correct insofar as the government was concerned. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, if there is any doubt as to the propriety and correctness of it, I would ask my honourable friend on what possible grounds could he, as a Minister of the Crown have sanctioned the introduction of that legislation in April of 1969. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister would indicate whether it's the position of the government that legislation drafted but not introduced and not passed is considered to be legislation or whether it has to be passed by the House. Mr.

Speaker, on that basis, then the Legislation introduced by the government in its fi rst two years is all legislation drafted by the other government. - -(Interjections)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order, please. Order please. Again I appeal to the honourable members on both sides of the House. If they wish to use the question period as a debating hour I wish they would inform the Rules Committee to meet and suggest this to the Assem bly, and once we agree to it as an assembly then I'll agree that this is what should occur .

But in the meantime, the rules indicate that the question period is not for debate, and unfortunately a number of members have been abusing this particular procedure. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister re sponsible for housing. Can he tell us whether Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation has launched any immediate or urgent action to supply or construct new housing in the Main Street area or to assist non-profit groups to supply new housing for the elderly citizens of that particular part of the city? MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER : Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't say that I'm aware of the Housing Corpora tion launching anything in the Main Street area as a result of the fire that recently occurred. There is an elderly housing unit being built on Main Street and Jarvis. That is in process of construction. I don't know what is the target date for completion.

Insofar as organizations, voluntary organizations, desire to do this, that is a program that has been in existence for some time, and if there are any local organizations that wish to do it, the method and pro cedure is known to them or they can get that information from the MHRC so that they them selves can undertake, as sponsors, undertake a project. MR . AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister in his capacity as Minister of Health and Social Development, undertake to have workers of his department survey that immediate area to ensure that elderly residents in the Main Street and Jarvis area will have first priority in that accommodation as compared to other lists they may be available? MR. MILLER : Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure that the department is directly involved, but I do know and I've been given to understand that MHRC does attempt, in filling the housing as they become available, to meet the needs of those in the immediate neighborhood before they · .are made available to those who are living farther away.

April 11, 1974 2389 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to answer a question asked yesterday and the day before by the Leader of the Oppositi on , as to whether or not a Mr. Don Howden was em ployed by the Department of Northern Affairs. The posit ion as Local Government Training Officer was advertised in January, 19 74. Of the between 20 and 25 applications the selection committee of fi ve have offered the job to Mr. Howden to commence on April 12, 1974, and this is a Civil Service positi on . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader.

MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you proceed to Bill No. 7 please. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR . GREEN: And then the adjourned debates on second reading in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour. Bill No. 7. The Honourable Member for Morris. ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS - BILL NO. 7 MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, the debate on this particular measure has consumed some cons iderable numbe r of days, and although the total length of the ti me that has been spent in actual debate is not nearly as great, there still have been something like 41 to 42 people who have participated in the debate. It's an indication, Sir, from the point of view of those of us in the Opposit ion, of the seriousness with which we re gard the legislation that is now before us. We have stated our objections to certain aspects of the bill.

We've attempted to re spond to the point s of view put forth by those few honourable gentlem en opposite who partici pated in the debate, notably the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Mines and Resources, the Minister of Labour himself, and the Mi nister of Public Works. We felt that the remarks that we made in response to some of the positions that they took and the criticisms that they levelled at this side of the House were valid in that they an swered the points that they raised.

But , Sir, we have long gone past the stage in this Chamber where we believe that the govern ment, once they have determined to embark on a course of acti on, can be swayed fr om that course of action . We used the methods that there were available to us to ensure that the public , Civil Service included, were aware of what the governm ent was doing and that they would have an opportunity to respond one way or the.other.

The length of tim e of the debate has provided that opportunity and now we feel that the matter has been debated at some con siderable length, and what will remain to be seen is the reaction that will come from those people who may be affected by the bill itself when it is brought before Law Amendme nts Com mittee. I say, Sir, that we have no apologies to make for the action that has been taken on this side of the House nor the posit ion that we've taken with respect to this legislation .

We remain unconvinced that the government is proceedi ng on a course that will indeed be to the benef it of theCi vil Service and to the province. We see, Sir, the Government establishing dangerous precedents ... A ME MBER: Every day. MR . JORGENSON: ... in the action that they're tak ing under this bill, and we have no doubt of what their plans are because that's becoming manifest in every action this gove rnment takes, in everyth ing they do, including the event s that have been described in the north . Sir, there are dangerous precedents being establ ished.

The Minister of Agri culture who - and he must have antic ipated that I was going to use him as the best example of a Minister who is establishing dangerous precedents. It must, Sir, have taken a man of tremendous ability to have kept that Minister out of trouble for four years, and yet that is just what Murray Cormack did as long as he wa s Deputy Minister. The honourable gentlem an , even to some farmers, began to look reasonably good because of the actions and because of the care exercis ed by Mr. Cormack in making sure that he didn 't do the many stupid thing s that he 's prone to do. And then , Sir , Mr.

Cor mack decided he could stand it · no longer and he left . A MEMBER: And what happened to our Minister? MR . JORGENSON: What happened then? Sir, the Minister decided to appoint someone who was more conce rned with advocating a polit ical point of view than he was in administe ring

2390 April 11, 197 4 BILL 7 (MR. JORG ENSON cont'd) .. . the affairs of the Department of Agriculture, and since that time he's been in trouble all the time. And I say now, Sir, that the Minister need not feel proud or smug about the fact that we took little time in examining his estimates. There's two reasons for that. The first one is, Sir, that in the experience that we've had, we feel that the Minister is one that has not learned to separate his imagination from his information. It's rare, Sir, thathe does violence to the truth because it's rare that he comes close enough to it to cause it bodily harm.

Asking that Minister questions is a waste of time because. A MEMBER: Hear, hear. A manifest waste of time. MR . JORGENSON: .. . because, Si r, the contradictions that appear in his answers, the slipping and .sliding ... --(Interjection)-- The Minister says, "Name me one. " Well, Sir, the incidents of the northern co-ops is a pretty good example. And I notice that--well, he says everyone is answered. The Minister, you know, as I said ... A MEMBER: Answered differently every other day. MR . JORGENSON: That's justthepoint, Sir, every one of them answered a different way every day.

And secondly, Sir, there are a number of departments that·must be gone through and the Opposition attempts to be as responsible as possible in making sure that some coverage is going to be given to each of those estimates. But then, Sir, the third reason. At the rate that the Minister is losing his credibility in the country and amongst the farmers, it's hardly neces sary for the Opposition to assi st him along that path; he's doing a credible job for him self . But, Sir, I digress.

The Civil Service themselves have not indicated that they are in agreement with this legislation, and in a recent publication,, April 19 74, called Contact - and I won't go through the problem of reading the publication1it's available to I suppose anybody who wants to read it - they take a position that is diametrically opposed to the position that che Mini ster is taking in this bill. They indicate non-su pport for that bill.

And in a supplementary report March 15th - and I would like to put this one on the record because it's signific ant and it outlines the fears that we've expressed in this House - says up to now the MGEA has officially remained politically neutral. However, if the present government of Manitoba wishes to carry Bill 7 through the present sitting of the Legislature, the Ass ociation should, and probably will, quickly take advantage of this removal of restrictions on the political activity of government employees.

With an amendment to the present constitution the Manitoba Government Employees As sociation could develop a vigorous and effective political program. It could endorse candidates of its choice , work for their election or even aid in the formation of a new reformed political party. The MGEA in recent months has been subjected to the actions of those who have violated the constitution from within its ranks. There have also been those critics in the employ of the government on a contract basis, who are too often mistaken for MGEA members..

There have been raiding attempts by rival unions and these ac tions have been lauded by at least one backbencher of the party in power as he spoke in the Assembly Chamber itself. When the right to become freely involved in political activity is given to members of the MEGA, the opportunity will be there, if we so choose, to reward our friends and punish our enemies, and Sir, that has been the burden of our remarks in this Chamber ever since this Bill was introduced. And it wouldn't matter what political party came to power, that would be inevitable.

Sir, the last time I spoke on this measure I attempted to point out, in response to statements made by the Minister of Mines and Resources, that the government is not just another employee. No one on that side of the House has responded to those remarks. I can only assume that they have accepted them as being correct, and I don't know how the government can effectively refute the statements that I made on that previous occasion. The fact is, Sir, that if that opportunity is going to be provided, it will be the government service and the people of this province that will suffer as a result. It cannot be otherwise.

It is neces sary that the.Civil Se rvice in this province and, indeed, throughout this country, remain independent, remain the medium by which the government can effectively implement its programs without partisan activity, without discrimination and without fear. It can't be otherwise if the Civil Service is to perform its role. Government apparently doesn't care about those things, and it's been evident in so many of the measures that they have taken, so

April 11 , 1974 2391 BILL 7 (MR . JORGENSON cont'd) .•. many of the precedents that have been established, that there is only one thing that is important as far as this government is concerned ..• A MEMBER: Power. MR . JOHGENSON: Power. Might is right. The end justifie s the means. They don •t give a damn how they do it as long as they have their way. An intere sting comment made the other night by a member of the back bench - I believe it was the Member for St. Matthews when he was preaching for his call here on the Capital Supply on Al Mackling Night - the Member said, "We 're the government.

We won the elect ion" . So therefore , therefore that gives them the right to do everything and anything they want. Sir, I concede that they're the government --No , the last words were mine. The last words were mine. The Minister said, "We are the government. We were elected at the last election so therefore we have the right to govern", and I don't deny that.

They have the right to govern, but, Sir, the right to govern is not a right to cast aside every law , every rule, every ethic that has ever been established in govern ment, and we might as well have--well, if that criteria followed, if a simple majority or if a majority gives them the right to do anything they want, then of course the bigger the majority the more they can abuse the law. By their calculations a lynch mob is the most democratic form of government in existence. There is only one man that objects. A MEMBER : Not too long. MR.

JORGENSON: Sir , that's the reasoning that honourable gentlemen opposite use. I don't deny them the right to government. They are the government. By the same token, Sir, we on this side of the House have the right to expect that when que stions are asked, honest answers are given. --(Interjection)-- Well, you see, there is a typical example from the Minister of Agriculture. You see, if he had his way the only questions that could be asked are the ones that he would allow past the censor board.

Well then, if the criteria had to be one s he could answer truthfully, there would be no questions asked at all, because the Minister is not capable of doing that. Sir, in so short a tim e I have never seen a government lose so much credibility as they have. Sir, they must have adopted Nancy Green as their patron saint and she taught them how to stay on top while sliding downhill, because they certainly are doing that.

Sir, we had an intriguing exchange here during the question period on the question of what is happening in the Wabowden affair, and honourable gentlemen opposite are rather amusing in the manner in which they have approached this thing. What did the Minister of Mine s and Resources just say? That there has been nothing , nothing to substantiate a judicial inquiry into that affair. Migosh, what do they need? The Grand Rapids inquiry was initiated as a result of a rumour that originated in one of the outhouses in Grand Rapids . No evidence , but it was initiated in order to clear the air.

What do you suppose a judicial inquiry is for? The Minister of Mines and Resources says that some of the affidavits filed by the Leader of the Opposition were incorrect. MR. SPEAKER : Order please. MR . JORGENSON : We on this side of the House have given evide nce , substantiated by othe r people who have investigated this affair. A MEMBER : Is this Bill 7? MR . JORGENSON:. • • that some of the--ye s, this is Bill 7.

It's more pertinent to Bill 7 than anything you could possibly debate at this particular time, and we on this side of the House have said that there are conflicts in the evidence given by people who replied, by civil servants who replied to the original affidavits. All right. What is more appropriate on this occasion than a judicial inquiry to get at the facts and the truth of the whole matter? The government have a tendency to accept the things that they say as the truth, and as soon as that has been said, then there should be no more questions.

And I tell you, Sir, if they had their way there certainly wouldn•t be any more questions. Two meeting s of the com mittee supposed to be examining this matter have revealed a technique that is unique in its ingenuity - absolutely amazing how two whole meetings of that committee can go by wi thout an opportu nity to question one single witne ss, a deliberate attempt, Sir, to prevent the kind of an inquiry that is neces sary to clean up this whole mess. Sir, the .Minister said he didn •t know Ben Thompson, he didn't know· Mr. Me Ivor.

I won 't deny, I won•t deny that the Minister of Mines and Resources was stating a fact, but he said hts one comment to one of the participant s, I •m not sure whether Mr. Thompson or Mr. Mclvor,

2392 April l l, 1974 BILL 7 (MR . JORGENSON cont•d) ..• "It is the fi rst time that the small people will be given, will be treated equitably ." That was the word he use d. Well, I just wonder how equitably--the Minister of Agriculture continues to chirp from his seat and I wonder how long he' s going to be chirping. Another comment that was made from the other side was, when CKY was mentioned, the Minister of Northern Affairs recoiled in horror.

Now, the other side of the story has been given on occasion on CKY, so they have stopped watching it now, You know, Sir, if somebody is investigating something that I have a responsibility for, and is publicizing that information, I would be making sure that I watched and listened to everything to find out what was being said. But not they. They refuse to even listen. They bury their heads in the sand and tend to create the impression that becau�:>e they have stated it, it is a fact. Si r, there are a few other things that need to be put on the record.

The Minister of Mines and Resources said, just a moment ago, there isn•t a scintilla of evidence that there was any charge or any evidence of vote buying. Not a scintilla. He said until somebody can do that, they can't accept the request and indeed the demand by the media in this province for a judicial inquiry. Well, I'm not going to expect, Sir, that the letter that I'm about to now read to the House--and I, in case the Minister of Finance is nearby, I want to hasten to assure him that it is my intention to table this letter and the documents that I have, to make sure that I compl_y with the rules.

The letter is signed . . • MR. SPEAKE R : It will have relevancy to Bill 7, I hope. MR . JORGENSON: We •re dealing with Bill 7, Sir. The letter is signed and I'm not going to use the person's name but it is on the letter , and I would hope that the press would not publicize the name even though they are going to have it available to them, The letter is dated April 11 of this year; it•s addressed to the Leader of the Opposition. "I am writing to you to explain a problem I1ve had with the Pensioner's Housing Program. In January 1973 I received a card from the Provincial Job Office , 203 Portage Avenue , Winnipeg.

I was informed I may be eligible for a home repair grant. I didn't apply for it because I didn' t need it at the time. I later received a notice in the mail from Premier Schreyer telling me that my application, which I had never asked for, had been approved. The total amount of the grant was $500. 00. I was in Winnipeg, and when I got back here Mr. Don Mcivor came over to see me and told me the House was fixed up.

But to me the house looked the same way as the year before, nothing done on the place, and he told me before the election in June 1973 should the New Decocrats--should the new government get in, we pensioners and others would get extra help, such as repairs for our houses , because he was campaigning for the NDP. And then she adds this significant note: I knew what he meant. My problem is the repairs were not done; couldn't be, because of the condition of the house. So I told Mr. Mcivor that I was not going to live in a house in that condition.

So he up and sold it to someone else"-- and again I won't mention the name--"who fixed the house up at her own expense and is living in it now. As for me, I•ve got no home," Sir, what does the government require in the way of evidence? Sir, attached to the letter is the letter from the Premier addressed to Dear Pension er, and the Notice of Approval re the Provincial Government Pensioner Housing Program and the details therein, and then a Cost Estimate for Manitoba Pensioners Housing Repair Program.

This person claims that although she was told that approval had been given for the repairs to that house , no repairs were done, and there's-- yes, you bet it is . The comment, Sir , that was just made is that it . . . MR . SPEAKER : Order please. MR. JORGENSON: The comment that was just made and I•m not sure where it came from, I would suspect the Minister of Agric ulture but it might have been the Member for St. Matthews, was that it's possible , and there is nothing that has been ever said on that side of the House that is more truthful. Anything is possible with this government- anything.

From the evidence that we have seen, from the answers that have been given, from the way that this government has acted on this whole matter , there is no doubt in my mind and there is no doubt in a lot of people's minds that it is possible. Well, Sir, what will the government do? Well, we know what the government are going to do. A MEMBER: Turn off CKY to begin with. MR. JORGENSON: That •s the first thing - no more CKY. They have stopped taking the

A pril 11, 19 74 2393 BILL 7 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) . . . . . Free Press and they are limiting themselves now to information that will be supplied by the Government News Services only, because that they can believe. It's an interesting turn of events. Sir, it's a disgrace that a government professes to be open, professes to be concerned about the so-called little people, and here is an example. If the Minister of Finance really is concerned about the little people up north, what about this lady and her house? Is that an example of the way they're treated?

And what happened, Sir, what happened to the allocation of that money if it wasn't used to fix that house? That, Sir, in its elf, that one letter in its elf is sufficient grounds for a judicial inquiry. Notwithstanding all of the other evidence which is just as grave and just as incrimin ating against this government. But the vote buying they talk about. They said, "Not" -w hat the Minister of Mines and Resources says, "not one scin tilla of evidence. " What more evidence do they want ? MR . MA LINOWSKI: Ninety-nine . MR. JORGENSON: The Member for Point Douglas says ninety-nine. That's right.

We've got to -- (Interjection) -- he wants 99 more letters. There's got to be 100 in order to make it qualify for vote-buying. This is another charge against one of the principals in this case, Mr. Mclvor. Whose agent is he? Who does he work for? Almost - well we heard this morning in the committee his qualifications were listed by the Chairman of the Communities Economic Development Fund. Oh he's a lot of things ; he's one of those so-called little guys up north who runs everything. And we're beginning to believe that he runs a lot more things than this govern ment care to admit that he runs.

Sir, an incredible, an incr edible case built against the government that has proven it is incapable of governing, that . instead of responding to legitimate requests on the part of the public, and indeed the members of this House and people outside the House, instead of taking steps to insure that there is no scintilla of evidence, they backbill, they hide, and they squirm, and their, only justification, the only justification that they've given for their actions thus far is that they believe themselves. That, Sir, is not good enough.

Government have not been candid with this House nor have they attempted to do anything to insure that the matters that have been raised have been cleared up to the satisfaction of everybody concerned. Sir, there's only one answer to get at the bottom of this mess and that is a judicial inquiry. The government will not - no matter how much evidence that is brought before this Chamber or outside this Chamber, they are going to continue to try to create the impression that nothing untoward has happened.

They are finding it more and more difficult to get anybody to believe that in the light of the evidence that is mounting against them. Sir, they should hang their heads in shame for the way that they've handled this affair and if that's an example of how they handle the business of this country, then God help this country. Now when the Minister rises in his place to reply there's going to be no answers forth coming. He's not going to attempt to deal with the legitimate criticisms that's been raised on this matter and the bill itself.

He's going to stand up in his place and bluster; he's going to fume, and he's going to wave his arms . . . A ME MBER : And rattle his head so ... MR. JORGEN SON: . . . in an attempt to convince this side of the House that he has justification for the action that he's taking in connection with this bill. He'll never do it, Sir. The Ci vil Service knows better; we know better; and the people of this province know better. The Minister if he even answers one question, and I'm going to pose a question to him now and he just may answer it - I don't know.

It's unlikely because I've never known with few exceptions that when legitimate criticisms are raised that honourable gentlemen opposite respond to them responsibly. They have learned that even after five years that they've been in government, they still think they're in the opposition.

I want to find out from the Minister what happens to a civil servant who1if he does not want to participate in politics, ifhe wants to mind his own business and carry ·on his responsi bilities the way he has been carrying them on in the past, and somebody comes along to him and tells him that he's got to get involved on behalf of the government, what happens to him if he refuses to do that? We know what will happen . . . A MEMBER: Out. Out. Out. The red slips. MR. JO RGENSON: . . . because we've seen it happen.

Sir, in concluding my remarks I'm going to draw to the attention of the House again just something that I mentioned a couple

23 94 April 11, 197 4 (MR. JO RGENSON cont'd) . . . . . of years ago. How this government intends to run this Civil Service when they get the opportunity. Now suppose that the amendments brought in to this Act are designed to deal with the situation that was raised in a memorandum of January 21, 197 2 from Allan Early to Rene Chartier. And you will recall, Sir, I brought it to the attention of the House but in going through my files I came across it again and now it is more pertinent than ever. Now it takes on some meaning. Here is the letter to Mr.

Chartier: He said, ''Pursuant to our discussions of two weeks ago I am now prepared to present for your considera tion the mechanism to streamline and maintain ongoing control of appointments to government boards, commissions and agencies. Basically what I am proposing is very simple, and doesn't involve much more than a coded card index file with alphabetical filing by department, sub-filed alphabetically by the name of the board, commission or agency; and further by month and year by expiry date of appointment. " I can tell you, they can't organize very much but they can sure organize this.

When it comes to getting relatives and friends on the payroll they are masters at it. "Each card will have the following information on it. No. l. The name of the department. No. 2. The name of the board, commission or agency. No. 3. The name of the member. No. 4. The term of employment. And, No. 5" - and here is an interesting one - "The renum eration if any. If there's no renumeration the card will be green rather than white. " I checked the file, Sir, they 're all white cards. "And, No. 6, a misc ellaneous information column will provide space for any other relevant data such as source of recommendation, etc.

Thus a typical card will be"- andjust for an example they got Lloyd Stinson down here recom mended by the NDP. Then they got James Rich . . . recommended by the MFL. I don't know who that is; I presume that is the Manitoba Federation of Labour. And then there's a chap by the name of Chornopyski, who is recommended by Ben Hanuschak. That' s the way it works , Sir. There is no doubt that -- (Interjection) - - the information ins ofar as appointments to their corps of election workers . And that's really what they're attempting to establish under this bill. A MEMBER: The public can pay for the election workers. MR.

JORGENSON: As my honourable friend from Lakeside says, and he feeds me a lot of unsolicited information, he says the public will pay for those election workers. And that, Sir, is the truth. But in conclusion 1this government have in no way met the criticisms about this bill. They have virtually ignored the Wabowden affair.

In the light of all the evidence that is mounting daily, their refusal to appoint the judicial inquiry to get at the bottom of the whole sorry mess1 in the light of the letter that I've now just tabled, and in the light of the evidence that is now being compiledJ is, I'm sure, in the eyes of the people of this province an admission of guilt, an admissi on that they're trying to hide something. I hope that the government will come clean before it's too late. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? All those in . . . The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY; Mr.

Speaker, if nobody wishes to continue I would move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that de bate be adjourned. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister will be closing debate. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPE.AKER : Bi!I No . 27 . '!'he Hoiwurab!e Member for Porta�e la Praine . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, could we have this matter stand ? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 30. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTO N : Mr. Speaker, with the indulgence' of this House could we have this matter stand ? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 33.

The Honourable Member for Riel is absent. Bill No. 36. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM : May I have this matter stand please, Sir ? (Agre ed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 38. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we could have the indulgence to have this bill stand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. We've gone through all the bills. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK Q. C . (Minister of Finance) (St. Johns) : I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair

April 11, 197 4 2395 (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) • . . • • and the House resolve itself into Committee to cons ider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair. . . . . . continued on next page

239 6 April 11, 197 4 COMMITTEE 0 F SUPPLY - CAPITAL SUPPLY MR . CHERNIACK : I believe we were on housing , and I don 't recall whether the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek had completed his remarks, It seemed to me that he was the last person speaking. MR . F . JOHNSTON: I was waiting for the Chairman to call. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR . F . JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr , Chairman, it's Thursday and you'd think it was Friday. Mr.

Chairman, I was just about finished my remarks but I was at the point in my remarks when I was saying that the places or the property that is used in the area that public houses , or public housing are put in have to be areas where there is room for a lot of recreation because of the amount of children that are involved in large numbers of families being put into one area all at once and I mentioned that I believe there is at least one of the housing develop ments that have about 150 adults and over 400 children.

And when you get that number of children added to the community you are going to be stretching your - you�re going to be going to be stretching your recreational facilities , and recreational facilities are not what I mentioned before, they are not just little places where you put swings for toddlers , You have to have large areas where you can have skating rinks , where you can have baseball fields, where you can have soccer played, and you can even get running tracks in there.

Nobody will ever complain if you have all kinds of people and children in an area if you take the time to have the proper facilities there , You know we •ve made that mistake, Mr. Chairman, right in many areas of the city now, right in my own area; right in my own area as it was built up there are places where we should have left more green areas . We1ve got the community club that•s at the top of a street in Silver Heights, the top of Mount Royal which is on a small end of a block, which is not adequate. Those are mistakes that we have made and we should learn from them.

This government should learn from the errors that have been made in public housing all over, and which is really the fact that it is not satisfactory, or not a success to place large numbers of people in one area. And as the Member for St. Matthews said, that we are babies compared to other areas but that doesn•t mean to say you're completely right. Some of your projects, as the one shown on the front of your report is an excellent one, and I think that they can be complimented for working that way .

But some of the ones that you have are wr ong, but youtre still continuing to go, and many times with a closed mind from the point of view of owne rship. You have to own. I think we also have other programs where the, I believe where the percentage of the rent I 'm not too sure of how it works in the country - where the percentage, the su bsidy in percentage of rents goes towards the purchase of the house. I don't know whether that- I think that program is involved in some of the rural areas . The Minister could correct me if I 'm wrong there , but if it is it's a good program.

I think there should be more drive to see that people own their houses . I also say that people could have the opportunity- you should be usin g or loaning money at 7 1/2 percent to private developers who have land. Let them build them, and let them maintain them. And I pointed out yesterday that you're now up to approximately $5, 200, 000 in subsidy for public housing. It started at 75 million, Mr. Chairman - $7 5,0 00, It jumped up to 700 in 1972.

It jumped drastically - 75, 000 in 1972; 718 ,0 00 in 1973; 3, 727, 000 in 19 74 ; and the allocation in your budget this year is 6, 029 , 000 of which I would say 700 ,0 00 would be administration. So your subsidies are growing drastically. Well, the honourable member shakes his head and says housing projects' operating subsidies , and it •s very plain in black and white. Mr. Speaker, if you take the estimates that you have on your desk you'll see what the end of 1974, March 1974 ,was , and you '11 see what's allocate(! for 1975 under the budget of the Minister of Health and Social Services .

The operating costs , the administration salaries of this organization has gone in 19 70 - this is the 1971-72 report - we have now gone to - well , we are now up to, by the end of 19 74 , Mr.

Chairman, or by the end. of 19 73, we are now up to Administration Salaries of $473, 264 and, you know, that's getting pretty rich, you know, I know that the member is going to say that the reason why it •s up there is because we are doing more; so what he •s saying , we are doing more but we •ve built a great big bureaucracy of a department which is now costing toward the end of 19 73 $473 ,0 00, and I think we should be able to be told what of this $20 million is going into administration this year. Now that $473 million that we see right there is a lot of houses, you know,

April 1, 1974 2397 CAPITAL SUPPLY Also , while the Minister was not in his chair yesterday, I brought up something that I guess, I don't think the Minister of Finance would have had the time to bring up to him and I' d just like to ask him, and if he would please go back to his -- no , the Minister of Fin ance , I asked him yesterday and it should have been asked of the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment. I don 't think the Minister of Fin ance has had the chance to communicate it to him so I might do so right now and ask the Minister to check this out when he's back in his office.

It seems that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation gives $10 . 00 to every unit for the joining of community clubs .

There 1s an allotment of $10 . 00 to each person in public housing or low cost housing, of $10 . 00 and they have received this before, to take care of joining maybe the local community clubs or into some activities in the area, There is in each housing development a small body set up which is set there or selected to govern themselves, and now there is a super body set up wh ich is the over-all board that the others report to, This super body is elected and also is part of the governing body of the people living in public housing, and they have a budget of $54, 000, that committee, or that group, I think $38 , 000 of it or so is for Community Development workers or something of that nature.

But I 'm told, Mr. Minister, that the people have to pay $2.0 0 to join the associa tion within their own housing development, and if everybody in that housing development does not pay their $2. 00, that this new governing board, this committee, citizens committee, have taken the authority to say that if you don 't all join up you don't get your $1 0.0 0, Now I don't think that that should be any criteria.

If a person does not want to join the citizens association within that housing group, if he doesn't want to pay the $2. 00, I don •t think that that should stop them from getting the $10. 00 allotment they'd been having before, and I' d like the Minister to check into that because that was brought to my attention just a couple of days ago, and I would also say to the Minister that I 've asked for . some information that would state that you can 't have your $10 , 00 if you don't join. up and if I have that information I'll pass it on to the Minister. So, Mr .

Chairman, I don't have too much more to say on public housing other than that this government has not bought, not bought with the Federal Government to the extent that you should be, so that you can make changes in the public housing and the low cost housing programs in Manitoba that will be more suitable to Manitoba, and the ownership concept, Mr. Minister, is not a necessity. We can save a lot of money in subsidies and a lot of money in the maintenance of these buildings .

You can write into the contracts of the people that have borrowed the money from you to build them what maintenance they must do and what standards they must have, and Mr . Chairman, we 'll save an awful lot of money. And the more money we save, the more houses we can build. We should also be buying houses in communities and putting people in them.

We should also be buying houses and putting senior citizens in those houses in the districts they live in and, as I said yesterday, maybe with a housekeeper or with a house mother to do the cooking and take care of them, and that is not going to be a costly program , you 're J going to save money. As I said, the six men on Talbot Avenue had a total of $1, 200 coming in, probably about $2 00. 00 each, and that would go a long way, a long way to helping support those men. So thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and I 'm sure there•ll be others that will have some comments on the public housing, because we have spent - and you're talking $58 million now, we 're getting up into a tremendous amount of money, around the $1 00 million mark or better, and we haven't really got that much to be proud of after spending that much money because the government's policy on it has just been absolutely dogmatic, You've built a big administration and a big department and they're not accomplishing an awful lot right now either. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Health, MR . MILLER: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I want to respond to some of the comments made by the Member for Sturgeon Creek , and I 'm sorry I wasn1t here to hear him yesterday but I had to leave town and didn't get back until the early hours of the morning so I 'm not fully up on what was said. However, some reference was made to recreational space for public housing and I agree completely with him that in the past there was a tendency on the part of all concerned, not just public housing authorities but councils generally, who didn't in their wisd om foresee the need for the kind of open spaces that I think councils today recognize.

I know that I personally had to deal with this kind of problem at the local level and it was in the late '60s or middle '60s that I saw the light and planned a subdivision.

2398 April 11, 197 4 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. MILLE R ConUd) . . . . We insisted in our area that there be adequate space to the extent of a couple of 30-a cre sites in one area alone, apart from small playgrounds , But I1 m told it's only in recent times that CMHC would considerthat in their funding they would recognize the need for recreational space as part of the housing project before they would separate the housing project and say this is the project itself and anything else was not really part of it and therefore it was not something that could be financed under CMHC .

I believe that has now been changed and I think it's reflected in the report and the picture which the Member refers to as being, as he con siders , a very good step in the right direction, and I' m sure it will be continued in that way . He did mention, or is critical of the lack of participation of the private sector in housing, and suggested that this is due to some fixed idea on the part of MHRC and government as to how they should operate.

Now the fact is , limited divident housing has been available for some time in recent changes under the National Housing Act, which incidentally Manitoba pushed for, and so when he suggests that Manitoba doesn't fight hard enough with the Federal Government he should sit in on some of the meetings that I' ve been involved in, only the last few months of course, but I can tell you the fight is pretty intense.

But the fact is, limited dividend housing has been available for some time and the private sector has not been too active in it, but under the new amendments they can be active in it, as can voluntary organizations, and they can get the same interest rate that MHRC gets - 8 percent, That is the rate today.

And so , any project can be financed by a private builder or a private developer at the same rate, and as a matter of fact, in that sense last year there was something like six applications , I believe, and the MHRC in discussi ons with CMHC suggested and received concurrence from CMHC that 20 percent of the units constructed by the private builders under this low rent, low interest rate, would be made available to MHRC as sc attered units in their various projects, However, the six proposals that were made in 19 73 have been reduced to three because of withdrawals by developers. They just decided not to.

The others that are still going on, that arrangement· still exists and if they do go forward , then MHRC will be requiring, with CMHC 1s blessing, that 20 percent of the units be made available for people who would be sponsored by MHRC. So that to suggest that they are dogmatic and will only do it in a certain way isn't so . They are quite amenable to any variety of proposals that may come forward .

On the question of grants to the Tenants Asso ciation, I certainly will check it out, but my understanding is this: that grants are made, not to the individual residents , but rather to the Ass ociation, and is based on $10. 00 per occupant.

It's made to the Assoc iation itself and it's simply providing the Tenants As sociation '.s representative of the tenants in the project, so it doesn't mean every one but is the representative of the project, and I' ve not heard and I 'm not aw are, and it's never been brought to my attention, that there is a requirement that the individual has to put up $2. 00 towards something. My understanding is that the use of the grants is at the discretion of the Tenants Association itself and they may or may not be passed on to a local community centre . If they want to , they can ; if they don't want to.� they don't.

That's entirely up to the Tenants Assoc iation itself. They make theee particular decisions on their ow n and I 'm not aware and have never heard of any requirement of a $2 .0 0 payment by the residents. The reference was made to the newly created Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority and the reason for that was that, as the number of units increase to the extent that they have in the last four years, it was found that we had to, the MHRC board felt that it had to set up a group which would administer the various units.

Now that wouldn't include, for example, those projects where there was an organization like the Ktights of Columbus , for example, or the Polish Manor, where an organization has undertaken to manage and adminster on behalf of the corporation. .There the administration is right there - an organization does it, But there are many units, particularly public housing units and also the elderly housing units such as the ()ne -at 180 Smith Street , where there isn 't that kind of management, organizational mana.gement, by a voluntary group, so that it was felt desirable and expedient to separate the functions and to turn them over to a housing authority on wh ich there are representatives from the Greater Winnipeg Tenants Ass ociation, representatives or nominees from the City of Winnipeg City Council and from the Province itself, and they will act as administrators of the various units wherever they are.

April 11, 1974 2399 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR . MILLER Cont'

d) Now the Member has mentioned the costs , and the fact of the matter is I have to tell him that the likelihood is that the cost is going to go up.

The remarkable thing about what's happened is that the massive number of units built - and it's non-operational - in the short space of time , was done I think- it's very commendable - but I think it was done with too small a staff considering the vast number of units , not only in Winnipeg but throughout Manitol:n as a whole, and to expect the small group of people who have been at MHRC working on programs in rural Manitob a, the City of Winnipeg, Northern Manito ba, has really stretched their capacities to the maximum, and I for one feel that in order to make the operation move more eff ectively, the homes that have been put up, or the units put up, are now no longer brand new and require no maintena nce, it 's now two , three and four years , and there has to be a constant check on them to see that they are maintained properly, that they are looked af ter, and this is going to take manpower.

So I have no apologies for the fact that there seems to be an indication in the report that the administrative costs are going to go up. Those costs are there , whether they be a private , whether they be units within a limited divic!l;md housing unit, that cost is there and will simply have to be picked up by the corporation in any case , because we've picked up on the rent.

You must recognize that where limited dividend housing is picked up, the rent has to be such as to recover the debt within 50 years , and so there's full cost-recovery rent without subsidy, which in many cases puts it out of the price range of many people.

Now we're going along with placing some people in these units but they have to recognize that it is not the intention - I don1t think it should be , nor would it be a wise policy - to oimply have someone put up the units and give . them in a sense a guaranteed return at the highest , whatever their rents have to be in order to fully recover costs plus an administrative expenditure as well, plus a guarante ed return on their money, which is very minimal but it is a guaranteed return, with eventually the ownership and the equity ending up in the hands of one man, What we have is therefore a varied program, and in the months ahead we 're going to be making it more varied as new legislations come down, such as the neighbourhood improve ment programs which we are certainly going to be involved and which the City of Winnipeg, the municipality has to be involved, and we are going to be spending time in that area, So I just simply want to report that as far as the program for the coming year is concerned , and the next two years , there 1s going to be an expansion, a broadenin g of the kind of projects under take n by MHRC , the kind of projects which may meet with the approval of the Member for Sturgeon Creek.

And I' m not apologizing for the corporation; I think they in 1969, when they were told to meet a need as they perceived it, the immediate need was housing for people who could not afford the rents of the day and elderly public housing,They basely went on a program to meet that need and now that they've done that they're not going to back away fro m it , but I agree that they have to diversify the programs, to broaden them in order to cover different kinds of needs to which they perhaps did not addre ss themselves up to now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR . AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr .

Chairman, In addre ssing a few comments to this debate on Capital Supply, I 've been listening the last while to some of the comments made concerning the activities of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion, and it reminded me of the statement that Kenneth Clark made . Some of you may recall that he was the author of a very notable and quality television series a few years back called "Civiliza tion" . At the beginning of that program he made a very pertinent statem ent.

He said, "If I was asked to ju dge the progress and quality of society and I had to choose between the statements made by the Minister for Housing or the number of housing units built, I would prefe r to choose the number of housing units built, " And I think that is a proper starting point to examine the capital requests at this time for MHRC, because this is the major point of my concern and it goes back to an old and oftentimes fo rgotten word which I haven't heard used .much lately, and that's the question of perform ance , but certainly well enough to hear the Minister and his collea gues speak with great vehemence and fo rce about the wonderful acco mplishments in the field of housing.

But when you begin to look at the numbers , when you begin to look at the accomplishments, when you begin to look at the performanc e, you find out that while we have a great deal of rhetoric we have very little in the way of reality.

2400 April 11, 19 74 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR . AXWORTHY Cont1d ) •••• , Let me start off first by saying, let's go back to 1971 when the government itself fo r, I think, all the right reasons1decided it was going to get into the low income housing field. A paper was prepared fo r the Cabinet at that time which indicated over a five -year period a minimum number of units fo r low income people in the Province of Manitoba would be 21, 000 . And that was a paper that was submitted and adopted, We now look at the record and we find out that in the last four years we have produced just a little bit more than 7, 000 .

Now I recall the great statements of acc omplishment and say well now, if that was the basic measure , if the government has now once adopte d an objective, then surely it's incumbent upon it to answer why, or how, it hasn't been able to accom plish its own objective s. What's been the reaso n?

Furthermore , and I think this is the important question, that we 're being asked to pass upon a new allotment of capital supply, and that we 're going to pass upon it on the same standards as the old: lots of promises, lots of expectatio ns, lots of rhetoric, lots of waving of the flag , but poor performanc e, beca use last year was a disast rous year as far as low income housing was concerned.

And I know that it would trouble some of the members opposite , who have come to believ e, sort of, that they can do no wrong, to face that funda mental fa ct, and I heard I think one of the member's comment the other night that the Minister of Mines and Resources has the capacity in debate to argue black is white, Well the problem is some of his colleagues in the NDP caucus have come to believe that black is white, which is even worse.

They've come to use a strange topsy-turvy logic that turns words upside down and turns reality upside down, and say what is good is bad and what is bad is good, And I think that that is again symptomatic of the malady that we described the other evening in relation to the comments being made by the Member for Radi sson in relation to the economics, that somehow there 's a hallucination going on; that somehow the reality of the world escapes those who are kind of juiced up on sort of a socialist sort of Be nny pills or whatever other kind of requirement they're expected to take , Because surely, if they were serious , if they were really serious about the requirements for housing in the province, they would stop talking so much and start doing an awful lot more .

They would start perfo rming. They would start producing the number of units in low income housing that are required. Now let me just go throught the list, But there was one year where I think all members of this House should give full credit, back in 1971 -72, which was a record year of over 4, 000 units built . That was the time , as the Minister just expla ined, when MHRC had a small staff of maybe seven or eight people working fo r it . Now we have a staff of over 70 , and what did we produce last year ?

Le ss than 500 units, So we have a new definition of Parkinson's Law, that there's an inverse relation between the numbers of people in MHRC and the number of units built. The more people you hire the less units we have built, so surely if we pass on these capital supply estimates and MHRC hires more people , then what we have a right to expect is they'll produce even less units than before . Because certainly, the more people they hire the less units they can produce , Well, if the Minister wants , if the member shakes his head, look at the figur es .

Is it not true that as more people have been hired there's been a decreasin g number of units per year ? I' ll read them for the member. I know he gets his informa tion from those contract employees who have all that informatio n, but the total units in 19 70 was 1,4 00; in 1971, which was a good year when they had good prof essional pe3ple operating MHRC , you had 4, 000 then down to 1, 500 , now down to 500 and God knows where we end up. We may be hiring 50 new people for Manitoba Housing which means we may end up not building any housing at all next year if the same formula is going to apply .

I think that that comes down to one of the serious questions I would like to raise with the Minister, and that is the mana gement and competence and efficiency and eff ectiveness of the present organization of MHRC . He may recall, about a month ago in this House we asked if he would table the Plunkett Report on the management of MHRC , because while I have not read the full details of that report, I think it would be very interesting to this House to look at some of the comments that Mr .

Plunkett, who wa!?. paid a good sum to a.nf!lyze. the management, had to say about what was happening in terms of the interfe rence and involvement and a breakdown of managerial effectiven ess of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. And that report, like many other reports , is still locked up, I suppose . I hope the Minister is reading it beca use surely that's the only way we're going to get around the problem that we have, a problem which is being exacerbated increasingly by the fact that employees for

April 11, 197 4 2401 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR . AXWORTHY Cont1d) .•••• MHRC a re increasingly coming on non-civil service cont:racts so that their salaries can be on inflate d wages, and they're not subject to the same kind of classification schemes that the Public Service Commission will require , which is the standard we 're seeing in other departments , in Northern Aff airs and everything else . And I don't argue.

If the government feels that they want to get people of the same ideological bent to manage the organiza tions, that's fine ; but surely to God there must be a competent socialist somewhere in this country who can run a housing program . Why must they hire all the in competent ones ?

Surely they must be able to find somebody of a similar vein of mind who can do the job effectively rather than gathering together all those who spend most of their time sort of tilting with windmills or arguing vehemently for sort of classical tracts or historical, you know, philosophical debates which no longer have relevance to the contemporary situat ion of what's required in the housing field in the province of Manito ba.

An d I think that that is the maj or issue that we should be raising at this time about the housing program, beca use there has been an increasing record over the past three or four years where promises have been made and not been fulf illed, In 1971 -72 MHRC and the Provincial Gove rnment had acquired, as they say they're going to acquire this year, six or seven million dollars for land banking. And what happened? That money was turned back to CMHC. It was never used, For reasons , I sup pose , but never used.

Now I suppose I may be sort of out of place to suggest that are we now expected to believe this government one more time that all of a sudden it's now, somehow or other, going to correct all those passed mistakes to bring to bear what they say they're going to do, or are we going to have a continuing trail of broken promises? Because that six million dollars was turned back.

And so do we , a year hence, come to debate the Capital Supply of the Manitoba Hous ing and Renewal Corporation, and have the Minister of Finance orthe Minister responsible fo r housing, who by that time will probably be changed because they seem to change the Ministers every six months or seven months, that he would simply say, "Well, I1 m sorry, something happened. That Land Val ue Appraisal Commission which we have our appointees on, somehow or other didn't want to pass it as they did in 1971 and 19 72 so we had to turn the money back.

" So that the whole question, and I think that the Minister has an obligation to respond to this and I put great faith and trust in his own sincerity, but I certainly must raise a high degree of skepticism about the ab ility and competence of thos who have been given the responsibility of running that corporation over the past two or three years . They have been in many cases the ones responsible fo r a breakdown in communications with the City of Winnipeg - and by the City of Winnipeg I just don't mean councillors , I mean the citizens of the City of Winnipeg who also - and I' d like the Member fo r St.

Matthews to pay attention - also encompass part of the issue of objections that have been raised to various housing proposa ls . It 's just not those nasty ICE C councillors , it' s people in their own community committees where in many cases the original objection emerges. Now I know that we don 't- - we have to sort of be -- in this House at least we know that the government "is the people" . Well, as I keep saying, they are only part of the people, because there's an awful lot of people who find out that they don't get much representation for their concerns or their point of view in terms of this government.

And it certainly is true in the housing field, be cause in fa ct of the matter, as of last year there was a waiting list of over 5, 000 people for elderly persons housing in the City of Winnipeg. Now that is a dire need, and we are seeing the consequences of the inactivity right now when you talk about the Talbot Aven ue problem or the housing problem with people sort of be ing flushed out of decrepit and deterio rating older blocks in this city of which there is a great number. They simply have no other place to go. There is no alternat ive .

And I think that the kind of comment that was made by the Director of the Age and Opportunity Bureau in the newspaper yesterday also had great relevance . She said that she has made representations to this corporation which we 1re told have such a great openness and worldliness to consider alternative s.

She said tha:t years ago she was talking about alternative fo rms of senior citizen housing, and the fact of the matter is -- and if the Minister would like I 'd be pleased to produce a number of studies done in both this country and in the United Stat es , which show that for a large number of senior citizens high-rise elderly persons housing is not what they want. They fe el uncomf ortable in it, In fact a major study has just been completed by a senior citizens group in this city, which indicated overwhelmingly that there is strong concern about high rise living for senior citi zens .

2402 April 11, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. AXWORTHY Cont 'd) . • • . • Now it may work in -some circumstance s, but if you are sincerely concerned about answering a variety of needs , then you must assess those needs carefully and respond to them with a variety of programs . But oh, no, Not this corporatio n, beca use within that corporation are people who have become wedded to the concept and principle of public housing , that that is the be-all and end-all of the housing program. It stops and it starts there. And we heard the Member for St.

Matthews mouthing those kind of arguments before in claiming that somehow the statements made previmsly were not based upon any kind of asses sment. Well I would like to remind the member that it 's important , if he's dealing with the question of housing, not to refer to history but to refer to contemporary analys is.

And I bring to his attention something which is not a Liberal document, not a document produced by me , but it's a study that was probably the most extensive study on low income housing in Canada done by the Dennis and Fish report , and in it their recommendations that we should stop or secede in our major thrust on public housing beca use it 's not working in Ca nada .

Now no one can accuse Miss Fish, who I know quite well , of be ing anything but sort of a someone who sympathizes with the interest of the opposite side , An d Michael Dennis is certainly, Sir, no one who is wedGed to the establishment, In fact , he spends a good deal of his time fighting the establishment; and yet they were authors of a major study on social housing which said as its major recommendation - and I wish the Member for St. Matthews would read a few of these and not -simply listen to some of the sources that he listens to - that there are a number of reasons why we should not pursue public housing.

An d he goes through the reasons and there's eight or nine of them , and I refer that study to him. I refer him to the studies done by Geoff Patte rson who is the director of the Housing Committee of the Ca nadian Council of Social Development, who also is no, no -- but he .. to the fat cats of the establishment, but as a member of that housing research team, has produced, and I would refer to him the latest copy of Welf are magazine where he says the same thing, Here again, "Alternatives must be found , because public housing in the context of North America oftentimes just doesn 't work.

" And the Member fro m St. Matthews began saying, "well now, wait a minute ." He made two glaring jumps in logic or error. First he said, well now, look; the Eu ropeans build all kinds of public housing , so why isn't it a universal principle.?

Well I would like to point out to him that there's a very simple sociological fact called culture , which means over years people acquire attitude s and fe elings and biases and outlooks shaped by their environment, shaped by their history, shaped by the kind of conditioning that they go through" And that becomes just as much a restraint , just as much a param eter, just as much a factor to take into acc ount when you're building housing as the economics or the supply of money or the availability of building materials .

An d there is no point continuing trying to ram things down people 's throats if they're not prepared to accept them. The fact of the matter is that we don't adopt Swedish fo reign policy, I don't see any reason _ why we should necessarily slavi shly fo llow their housing policy.

And even if you wanted to , even if you wanted to , I would point out to the member and I would refer to him a series of articles done by people like Michael Zigler _a nd Irving Weldfeld and Eugene Smolensky, who have all studied the European housing program and have found out conclusively that the Eu ropeans themselves are switching from public housing or council housing into forms of transfer pa

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-87
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 87.pdf
Language	en
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