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December 15, 1980 _a;le 2935 EC - l The Eou se :net ac 3: CO P. ~ ... ~1r . S?ea.~er ir~ ::he Chair. ~·Lq . SPE~.:<:::R (Simms ) : 0:::-der, ?lea se! I have a coromunicat.ion ;..·hich I have been asked to pass on to hen . members ,accressed to mys~l~ . Eis ~cellency ~,e Governor General has asked me to convey t.o you his heartfelt thanKs fer forwarding :o him che condolences of the f.ouse of :>.sse:r .bly of :-Je\v::cundlanC. a~c Labrador on ~~e occasion o:: the death o: t.~e :ormer Governor Genera~ , c~e ~i.ght :ionourable Jules Leger . "I !'lope you •,;ill oe kind enough -'.:o :.=a.'1smi"t:.

Eis Exceller:.-;;y ' s appreciation for their ~~ought:ul~ess tc the ~~~ers of ~e House . You :::·an rest assured ;::?lac your :nessage ;>ill be brought to the a;::~ention oi M:adam :eger without .:iela~'." It. is signed by E. u. 3utle.r , Secretary to ':.i":e Governor General. STATEMENTS BY M:I~USTERS HR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon . the ~linister cf Justice . /~r.

S9eaker, I am pleased to in:orm t:-,e House that this morning I :n:te:1d.ed the i::~cuct.:.c:-~ of ~::.•lency -eight young No:wfou :1dlanders as recruits i::lto the Ro val ;)few,fou:-~ciland Constabulary . .he ~roup was corn~oseC. of t\venty -three :nen and five ;.;omen . This :'ollo1"ed an extensive re crui ting campaign ~,rcughout the ~rovince . It is the first tL~e in the history of the Force that worne:-~ have been ~ecruited . As acimi~istrative a:1ci other ?roced~res are developed, more · . .;omen '"'ill !:le recr-J.ited in t!le :uturw .

All the recruits ~ere swor:1 L, =his ~orning by Chief Poli.ce Kicharci Roche . This also •.vas -::.he ::.rs;: oc:::asl.o:1 that the ?ublic Ser'lice Ccm.'!liss.lcn \vas .'!n v ~!.veci in ::he recrui~~ent. cf constables . ~:;.:. 3 ::e •tt pel i..:;y o:: recr~i -:_:~.en t 7~?~

December 15, 1930 Tape 2935 EC - 2 ?-~R. OTTENHEIMER: through the Public Service Coroflission will allow Province-wide competition and selection to be made in a professional and consistent manner. All future recruitments in the Force will be dcne with the co-operation of the Public Service Commission. I should point out as well that at present there is a recruitment prograrr~e for the St. John's Fire Department and this is being done in con­ junction with the Public Service Commission.

The next recruitment for the Warders Service of the penitentiary and other correctional institutions will likewise be done in ccnjunct.ion ~•ith the Public Service Commission. In other words, henceforth all recruiD~ent in the uniformed services responsible to the Department of Justice will be done in conjunction with the Public Service Commission. I am also pleased to inform the House that arrangements have been entered into with the Atlantic Police Academy in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island 1 for a five-month training programme for today's recruits.

The quality of training at the Acada~y is recognized as being among the best available anywhere in Canada. Training of the new recruits will begin early in the New Year and will include studies in criminal law, federal and provincial statutes, as well as preventive policing, investigative methods, courtroom procedure and physical fitness. Training will finish in May coinciding with the expansion of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary to the Town of Mount Pearl, scheduled for June, 1981. In addition to the obvious benefits flowing from such a programme, the training staff at St.

John's will be able to concentrate their efforts on progressive in-service training. This has been ongoing at the ~id-managernent and constable level for some months. 7 ·j 2 7

~ecenber 15, 1980 Ta~ 2935 EC - 3 Y!R . OTT£NF.EIHE~ : Arrangements have also been reached ~e~ween the Department of Justice ~nd the City o: St . John's :or the transfer of ~arking by -law en!orca~en~ from the Royal ~e\V:oundland Constabulary to the enforcem~nt ;:ersonnel ~u~loyed by the City . As a w~tte= of =ac~, I Has speak~ng with the ~!ayor only tlus mo rning on this Jlatter . ':'!ii s t ~a~s:er is to take place early in ~ he ~ew Yea r. ~~e earlies..: would be Feb ruary ls~ and ·.<~e ho;:e it: ·.vill be a-.: that date . It Hill certainly be no lat:e= ~han A~r~l ~st but ,in all likelihooe , closer to February lst . 7 :1 ~· ;{ I ~ -

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2936 SD - l .r!R. OTTENHEIMER: This will free seven uniformed police for other essential duties. It is also in line with our policy of having munici?ali~ies assume responsibility for by-law enforcement through the medium of municipal enforcement officers. Finally, I wish to repcrt briefly or. the success of the Crime Preventior. unit established by the Chief of Police a few months ago. The unit has initiated a Neighbourhood l~atch ProqrarrLTTie for residential areas in the city. This progra.l"I'.!:le has been 'llell received and successful.

Also the Crime Prevention Unit has embarked upon a programme to alert the public with respect to the dangers of theft from parked cars. I understand that the number of such thefts has been reduced dramatically. As a result of a training programme recently completed by the Constabulary in conjunction with the Canadian Police College,"- :1ev; C.eployment of personnel for preventive policing will take :;;lace. This will supplement the \vcrk ;::>resently being done by the Constabulary in the prevention of crime in relation to business establishments.

In this connection, the Chief of Police will be arranging a meeting in the near future with representatives of the business establishments so that further co-operative measures in t~is area of crime prevention can be developed. NR. SPEAKER (Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: ~he hon. member for G~and Bank. Hear,hear. ~r. S~eaker, I am also pleased to see that at least we are getting some new recruits in the Royal ~ewfoundland Constabulary.

There is one thing for sure, either the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary at the present time is understaffed or there is not a very effective use ::,eing IT'.ade of the nw-nbers that 1,;e presently have in the Royal Ne;vfoundland Constabulary , 1vhich I understand is about 220 men. I was also happy to see that 782Q

~ecereber 15, :9~0 :'ape ~io . 2936 so - 2 :-IR. L . '!'F.m!S : 1vomen have finally !:>ee!'l included ir: c.:U.s fo::-ce . I t~ink :~e :ac 1: ;:~at t.hey hav-e :'!OW go:.e out:sic~ to the ?ublic Ser':ice Com:r.ission i:. t!:eir recruit.:.::<; is a step in the rig~t di rect~on ; it still brin;s ~? ~~e :tece ssi o:y for a Police Coll".mi ss ion in this city ·.·Thien is somec..'1i:tg t~at I ~"li!'lk the :ni.nister shoulc gi·1e sene car ef u! considerat~or. to . If St. John's over th.:.. s Qasc ~eekend, :-tr .

Sp eake r, is any indication , of course, then chere is certainly a neces sity for :nore po!ice!i.en to ;,e •,o~ork:.:1g c~e stre ets, there is a :1ecess:. =v for :no ::e polic emen to act as sort of the neighbourhcoC policeman t.."lat v..-e sa~..r i:l days go :1e ~y. 3t.:t although t:he :ninisce:: has saic ~~ac he ~ill :1cc give a~y !'lw~bers of che :t~~ber of police that: are patro ll1ng the st:ree1:s of Sc . John's at: nigh t, ! think the fact that we had something like three ::apes L~ St .

John's over t~ s 9ast ~eekend and i:t one case =ne same wo man ~·1as ras>ed =·,.;ice in '::!le city then i': ~rLng s U? the necessicj for ~a vi ng :nor e me~ on the 5t:: eet ; I ~ea n , c~is is w~ere t~e cr:.~e t3kes ?lace. And t~ere is ~ absclut~ necessicy t:o ge~ ~ore ?Ol~ce~en and ~his is why ic is good to hear 7 8 -:~ n

"' :Jece~ber 15, 1980 Tape Xc. 2937 RP. - 1 ;-m . L. T~O~IS : not-· chat :ir.ally the pol.:..ce are goi:1g to be taken 0 :,: th~ parki:1g meters i.n St. Joh:1' s. F\ '; leas;: ~'!at will give 'lS seven more that can ausnent the present police force on the streets. I think it would also be a good time to :~~ent.:..on , since the ~lount Pearl si;:uation r..; a s mentioned here,-.:hat this gove:nment should give serious cons.:..derat - ior. to making the ?olice :orce a truly Ne•. •four;dla:ld :;:olice force anc extend it not only to ~ount ~earl b~t to other areas o~~side the city .

All i:1 all,t~ough.it is ~ood to see chat we are :na~i:lg so:ne progr~ ss L-: the areas ~ii >.::'l tile ~oyal New:'oundland Constabulary -chat shoul d be made . 3C~~E ~ON. ~1::.:-ISERS : ::ear, hear ! ~41. SPEA!<£R { 5 i:nrns} : ?ur'.:her statements r I am sure 0:1 behalf o: all hon . :ne!!'.bers you ~•ould all like to join :ne in •,.,re!co mir:g to ~"le .:;allery tccay the ne•,rly elec""CeO::. :.eader oi t::1e :-rew :Jemocratic ?arty .:..:1 the Pro;)Vi:lce, ~lr . ?onse ::aour. SOME nO~ . :'!EMBERS : Hear, hear ! t•!R . SPEAKER: ORAL l!tiES'!'I'JNS . '!'he :;on . the Leader of thg Cp~osi tion . ~lrt.

STIRLI~G: Thank you, .!>lr . Spea~2r . I ~ave a ~uestion :or the Minister of ~unicipal A~:a~rs (:·t=s :-lewhook). As the :qinister :s probabl:t a;.;are, there have been na:1y reques~s from rnunicip ali~ies - ~y es~i:nate is thac abou""C 50 ?er cent of the r~ral ~ur.ic:?ali=ies ha~e bea:1 in touc~ ·.vich t~e ::1inister-because ~'1ey have la rge populations in ;:~ose :nunicipali~ies chat are now excl•;ced :=r o:n ~~e ::ax- a:;ion rolls. Does the ~.:..nis~er pl~, ""CO ~ke a gran~ ava:lable to those rr.un:.ci?a lit ies 1"ic!:l suc:1. :~ge ?Opula r::.ior:~? ; ~·. ~: I ' ,

December 15 1 1980 :IR . S~El\.i<ER(Si:nms): .:~..: :ai::s . Tape :.;o • .2937 AA - 2 The hon . ~lin is ter of :·!un ic i?al :·1~S H . ?iETtlSOOK : l'lr . S';::ea!<:er 1 COUld u."!e :.On . Leac!er .T.ayi;e jus;:. clar~£y -;:.ba~ question ? You say ~hey have large numqe= s axcludee :rom the mu~ici?a! roll. I do ~ct quite unce ::­ stand what you mean by ~ha~ . ~1R . 5Eio.K2R : ~lR . STBLING : O>:!?plemenut =y The ho~ . Leader o: the Opposition .

Jusc :or clari:icat:..on and ~ot as a ~~s~ion ,jus~ :or clarifica~ion 1 all of us on this s~de have been receivi.1g :nany requests :rom :nunicipaE ties ·.o~ho last yea= received a :ull grant ;,ct th:.s yee.r 1 because o: <:he: exemp~ions in the ~ew ~!uni:::i;:>al ­ icias Act .c bey are not allowed ~o char9e tax to ~hose who do not qu ali:y under ~;e inccme ~x . ~:.d by deEin~cion,;'-c •.o~e agreed ''lith it on chis side, by de::inition sen~or c~tizens are excludec .But the gov ernment has net :nade !! grant ,Cts che y did wic~ social ser~i:::es. wich senior ~itizens o: c~ose w~o co not come up tc ~he :..nccme C3X ~ ~~itat~~n . ~~ese ?eO?l= ·,;ich. large re~ired ?Opulations are :-~ow in a ?Osicicn •,.;here t:hey may have to double their :ees , ~ut the go'lernmer.t at ~'lis poi :1t has not made a gran~ to thos e people to of .:sec chat 9roblem . ~lR .

SPB.:.....!(ER: The hon . ~inis~er of Mun~cipal Af:ai:-s . 7 ~j ~i i

Dec~c.ber 15, 1980 Tape No. 2938 EL - 1 c1RS. ::-:IEIVHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, in the general municipal assistance grant, there is a component built into that grant to take care of these kinds of circumstances where this component was recei'Ted by municipalities in re- cent years or up until 1980 and then, of course, we have the Social Services taking over the payment of people on social services. So instead of taking out that component from the grant which was there for that purpose in the first place, it was left in to compensate for any exe~pt­ ions that would have to be made to senior citizens. MR.

STIRLING: A supplementary, 1-lr. Speaker. !·!R. SPEAKER(Sirnms): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. M...~: STIRLING: Yes, if I understand the minister correctly, are you now saying that you will give a grar!t - it will be taken into consideration in their grants programme that any money that they cannot collect because of senior citizens who are not required to pay taxes,=hat will :e taken into consideration and they will be given a grant to make up for that loss of revenue? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the minister. i-1.9.5. ::-:IEWHOOK: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not exactly saying that.

But I am saying that in the general municipal assistance grant,which has been changed this year,that there is a built in component included in that grant for that purpose. MR. STIRLI~G: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. i-!R. STIRLING: I am not sure that the ~inister is giving the total information and she may wish to check into it. Another matter tha·.: is causing some problem is 7 ,-, ':; ~ I .-J ~J

Deca~be r 15, 1980 Tape :.!o . 2938 ::L - 2 ~lrt. SI'I:R!,ING : that las~ year for municipalicies tvhe.::e we forced ::hem to have audits done, -.:e pal.d che audi:: fees . ~s ! u~derstand it c~is ye~r tney have been .::e=used a paymem: . .!nd very specifically, if you want ::o ::ake the mun ­ icipality of tvareha:n . ::hey hav e been denied the grant for audi~ :ees . !s chat inte~tion3l ,chat you will cut c:: grants !or audit fees now, this yea.::? ~IR . SPS..'\KER (Simms) : The hon. 1•1inister ot ~lunicipal .Hfai.rs . :-L~S . NElVEOOK: ~1r .

S!)eake r, ..-e have pa .1.d ::he audit :ees for all ~unicipalities up to 1978 and some cf these •,.;ent back, oh, five, six , seve"! years,but i~ 1979 the :nunicipalities we re advised that :or the '79 audi:: they should include in their oucget an amount ::o cover ::he '79 audit . that would be included in the budget this year . And all mur.icipali ties \~ere :nade aware of this =nd ::~ey should have acted accordingly. ,,.e have received some .::e ­ quests to pay the '79,and we have advised them that they were instructed to include that in their budget !nc some of the::~ have the wrong idea .

They l.ncluded ic i:l -:heir budge~ but they feel it is for the 198 0 buC.get ".Yhich ~o;ill be paid for in '81, so •t~e have gone back to them and 78.St.

... December 15, 198'0 mao e No . 29 19 C\·i - 1 :1~5 . ~ENHOOK : e."<?la:.ned t~ si'hlaticn that i '.: is i~cluded L~ the !980 budget b~t it oay s for the 19 -9 audit . Then in the 1981 budoet,that will cover the 19qo aucit . '!R . L . S TI?.~DiG : ?-. fin al su9pla:nentary, )tr. Speaker . ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : A !i ~ al SU?? lementary, t~e hen . Leader o= the Opposition . "8 . L. STIRLI:>!G: .he :ninis"t:er m<~.ke s it sound 'iery s:ic.'!t?le ab ou1: including ic in t:heir Bucqet,;,uc i: ':hey h~ve no o the~ so ur~e o~ incorne ,do you acc ect the =act ~hac th ey have to r~ise taxes .

And that ::or :nany c£ these municioali tie s. "l am told ~hat as :r.any as !"!al: cf the mu nici::!al:.ties because of t:1e c!"i.anqes made by t.he ::!0 \"ernme nt: in t~P. ~e• . .; "lun:.ci?a..!ities Ace and the decision :;otto pay thincs like audit fe~s ,chat :nany o£ the.'ll :r.a ~ave ta ,i n !act, as mu ch as dauble ,certai~ly a 50 per ~ent increas e in 111hat: is refe ::rec to in the new ;._ct no~.,. as ooll taxes 1 ~hat these will have to increase ~ ~ as :ucc~ as 50 oer cenc . :s the ~inister aware of that? "3 . SPEAKER: The hen . Yliniste::: o: ~·lunici9al "fl_:=airs . \IRS . NEW riO OK : :-lo , 1-'r .

S9eaker, r am af ::a :.a I .::o not agree that we •..;ouic hav e to increase the tax tc tha.: extent . When audicing firms come in ;nc .;;ec up the books for the se muni ci 9a~i ties ,and they have already brou;ht all the accounts up tc date, uu to 1978, the audit :ees from now on will not be nearlv as hiqh because the systa~ is already there now. ?-.nd, of course, we never refuse any-::hing o::o an :nunici;;>alit:· •-the re i1: is an emergency . cut 1•e are sa yi:'lg to them th at chey shot:ld be realistic and <:!lev should ~e ::e ­ sponsible and ~hey sh ould o::ov ide ~ocies for the auci ~ !nc . 7 e 2,;

December 15, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : VIR. s. :'JEARY: Tape ~c. 2939 Dl'i - 2 The hon. member for La?oile. 1'1r. Speaker, I 1.;ould :.ike '::o direct a question to the hon. the Premier. \'le are all glad to see him back from New York. For ten days now I have been pressing the Premier and the government to trv to get some answers to questions in connection with what Mobil Oil is up to. The hon. Premier so far ~as managed to sidetrack my questions, will not give us any straight ans1.;ers.

During his absence when he was down in :-Je1.; York, a!Jparently the point that I was raising, the story broke loose on the mainland in the Toronto Globe and :1ail. And I would like to ask the hon. gentleman now to tell the House and tell the oeople of this Province what the rami­ fications are, the implications of his threat to Mobil, first of all, to cancel their permit as a result of Mobil Oil t~reateninq to take the provincial government and the federal government to court. And there is no point in ge~ting up and ramoing and raving and saying, 'It is all our fault, it is all Ottawa's fault'.

Give us some straight facts. Give us some information instead of playin9 politics with this situation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon . ;:nember :'or LaPoile U..rr. Neary) for l:is question. There was a story, I think, in the Globe and Mail written by a Mr. Carruthers,who is the Energy Editor f~r the Globe and Mail,and also, I think, a candidate for a job in the Department of Energy, ~ines and Resources in Ottawa. SOME HON. YEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7 ~J 3 ~

Dece~be~ 15, 1980 ':'a9e ~lo. 2939 m· .; - 3 o:>t:!.EMIER ?ECKE'O?.lJ: As I understand it - ~ ~ust found out that the aent~2~an w~o wrote the s~ory used to be ~ired by Energy, ~ines and ~esources. inte~estinq ki~d of simila~ity there. So there is an rtJe are ~aving meetings, ~r. SIJeaJ:er, with a number of oil corr.oanies >vho are coi:-,c business in the ?rovince and we will hocefull v continue to have those meetings . And at a aooro?riate time, ~hen '' I-, I 1J ~~ I

December 15, 1980 ~ape No . 294 0 NM - 1 PREHIER PECKFORD : thE: goverrunent sees that it is an appropriate time,we will be re­ leasing to the hon. member, and to the people of Newfoundland,any information that we believe is in the best i!!terest of the Province, for the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and others to have. ~~. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {Simms}: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaP oil e . MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker, that is a non-answer . There is no information in the answer given that very significant question.

The people want to know where this government stands, what their strategy is in connection with this whole offshore situation. We keep hearing during the answers given by the Minister of Mines and Energy that it is a matter of timing, that the Premier went off his head when Mobil threatened to take the Province to court because it was not the right time . Would the han. gentleman tell us what is meant by that? Does the Province intend somewhere down the road to take the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada?

What is meant by that matter of - the timing is all wrong, and that is what drives the Pr~~ier off his head. Or is he talking about an election? Give us some straight answers. Let us get it all out in the open. What is the problem with Mobil? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, like a lot of issues, they perhaps take on the form of ·an election in the sense that one does not provide information on when there is going to be an election until the goverr~ent and the Premier of the dayare ready to call one.

In like wav "Newill, at this point in time, because we are into talks with oil companies about their developments, not be releasing ipformation which can somehow then be misconstrued that we are negotiating in public and trying to do the public's business that way. 7 8 3 ,q

December 15, 1980 ·rape No. 2940 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: There comes a time when government, when it is dealing with industries like we did,for example, with Albright, Wilson and Tenaco on the renegotiation of the power con~ract, ·~ had ongoing negotiations with that company and obviously we could not, at any one point in time, hour by hour or day by day, keep the public informed because then ycu would be negotiating L~public and losing any kind of advantage that you might have. And hence,as it relates to a number of meetings we have ongoing now, both with oil companies - the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) has ongoing ~vith aluminum companies; we have ongoing with ot~er companies that want to do business in the Province - we nego~iate and when those negotiations are finished then we provide all the information to the hon. member and to the public at large. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. ~!R . SPEAKER ( S irnrns } : A final supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. ~R. N~ARY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary? This could go on for hours. The hon. gentleman is not giving the House any information in ~onnection with this very important matter, Mr. Speaker. There have been two significant developments.

Probably the biggest development so far in connection with offshore, the Canada Lands Act that is going through the Parliament of Canada, first, second and third reading at the moment, and the threat by Mobil to take the federal and provincial qovernments to court. Now surely the hon. gentleman can give us in general terms - he does not have to get specific - but the people of this Province want to know, Mr. Speaker, if their rights are being protected2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh! Oh! ~..R. :-1.ARSHALL: A point of order. 7 ·J 3 q

~ecember 15 , 1980 :'ape ~:o. 2940 N!>l - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Sil!Uils): Order , please ! A point of order has been raised by the hon . President of :he Council . :-lR . r·lARSa!.L : The ho n. gentlema~ =irst of all is deoat:ing an ans\o~er t::at has bee n given. And secondly, ~!r . Speaker, I draw yo ur attention to 3eauc!1esne, t!'le Fi!:th Edition, "In put:ting questions a mem!:>er must con!:ine hL-:tsel!: to t."le narrowest limits, etc .. a ques cion, oral or •.-;ritten, :nus ;: not", ~u.<rlber (c ) "multiply Wl.::~ slic;ht variations a similar questior. on the same ?Oin t: ' ~!".

NEARY : 'IR. :-J.l\~SF.ALL: (Inaud ible ). ":-tulti;>ly ,.;i t.h sligi:t ·tan.ations a sL'llilar question on the same point." I v1ould submit, Your Honour , that t!-.e :to:~ . member for LaPoile is :;lUlti?lyinq ~>~it.': :.ot even any variation c~e same question . I mean,t~e respcnse has been given by t!'le ~en . t:1e Premier ., ,;\ ; " I ') - '•

Dece.'llber 15,1980 Tape No. 2941 AH-1 ~!R. HARSHALL: to his question,and now, because he is not satisfied with the answer ,he is asking it again. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! With respect, I consider that perhaps there is a point of order and there are other references as well with respect to repeating a question in dif£erence variations and maybe the hon.member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) might wish to consider that and ask a different question. The hon.member for LaPoile. 1-!R.NEARY: If I can, ~r. Speaker, it is not easy because the hen. the Premier is stone- walling.

I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if there is ""'" trnr:h . any foundation to the story in the Toronto Globe ard lial.l. that Mobil did indeed threaten to take the provincial government and the federal governments to court and that the Premier had a secret letter delivered to Mobil sayinq that if ~hey did that their permit would be cancelled? Now that is a new question. Would the hon . gentleman please answer the question? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the oro~;o,. PREMIER PECKFORD: :-rr.

Speaker, as I have said on a number of occasions now in the last several days to the people who have asked questions similar to that one to me,that we are presently talking to the oil companies about their development in this Province In due course . if it is within the ?Ublic interest; that information will be made public. At this point in time,because the discussions are ongoing 1 I think it would jeopardize the negotiations and be accused of negotiating in public if any information was given.

I can assure the hon. member and I can assure this House and I can assure the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that in the same \>Jay as we are protecting their interests in Labrador power and the Upper Churchill, in "7 .'1 I •j L,.

Decembe:- 13,1 980 Tape No . 29 41 AH -2 ?RE:-!IER PECKFORD: the same way as we are ~rotectinc cr. ei:- interescs ec Long Harbour,as we did, we will also protect their inte rests as it relates to the developme nt of this Prov~n c e and its resourc es,including what is unde r che Cont~nen c al Shelf . SO~E HON .)!D!BERS : ~R.SPE~~ER (Sia~s): :OL~ . ~E.~RY : <iear, hear! The hon . m~T.~er :or La?o11e . T~e hon . gentl~uan is asking us to accept ;,is •~oro :o r c:u~ te a lot .

I can see that I a:n not goi:1g to get anywh!!1:'e duri."lg chis :-•~escion Period so I will save :ny ot:!ler c;uestions :or tcmo:::-'!:"ow because I had one last supplemencary ! want to cet at ~~e ~inister of t~ines ar.d Energy IMr . Ba!:.'ry) . I wa s told over the ~eekend.a:1d! want to c!leck lt to see i= L~ere is any :cundation to it or :lOt, tea :: wich all the hig;, v:inds :tnd L~e st:orms ~~at we have had in recent day s and recen~ •,;eeks around our C':)ast: and on ~ile Grand Banks , that a substantial amount of damage was do ne to on e of the oil rigs becau se it shi:ted in che wind .

Is t~ere any tru~~ i~ ~~is. any :ounda~ion to ~~? Can t~e mi~iste!:.' ~ell us i: indeec there is any damace over and above the recula r maintena.nce t.n.at takes !)lace on t.i-!ese ugs, if the1:'e is any damage involvinq millions of dollars to any o: t~ese rics offshore? ?~R .SPEP.J<ER: ~he hon. Minis~er o: Mines and Energy. )1R .SARRY : Mr .

Spea ker, as is the ca se tvith any in dust ry opera-ci ne; in a hostile en· :i.ronment: , from time to tim e L'1e impact o: tve ather, ice or ocher CO::ldit ion s doe~ cause or does ~ave an impac~ upon t~e ecU~?ment a~d there have to be :re?airs from time t:o ti~e . ~IR . ~ : :\ supplere z'lta ry , l1r . Speal~ . TJ"o.at is r.ot t:.'le question I ?Ut ';o che hon . gentleman . I asked him i::: in tile last ··1eek 'A.R . SPE~.KFR : T~e hon .member :or ~a9oi:e . ~ supEleme::lcary . 71]!./

December 15,1980 Tape ~o. 2941 AH-3 HR. NE?_RY : - or so .damaqe oz a severe nature , out of the ordinary, has been reporte~ by t~e oil companies as a result of the hig~ Ninds a~d hiqh seas that we have had on the Grand Banks in t~e last week or so? 7 8 ~ -(

December 15 , 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Ena rgy. MR. BARRY: Tape 2942 EC - 1 The hen. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, when it is appropriate to make an announcement with respect to any unusual activity that is occurring with respect to oil drilling, it will be made. ~l.R . SPEAKER : The hen. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH:. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (!1.r. Dinnl.

A few days ago I asked the minister what effect the strik"e by support staff workers at the College of Trades and Technology was having on the operation of the college, and the minister assured hon. members that it was having none.

But, Mr.Speaker, in view of the fact that the strike is now going into its fifth week with no signs that an immediate settlement is in sight, and in view of the fact that this strike has extensive concern and implications for all of the Province inasmuch as students are attending the college from all parts of the Province, in view of this, and in view of the concern that parents may have regarding this strike, can the minister again assure the House, and by so doing, assure parents throughout the Province - concerned and distressed parents - that this strike involving eighty-two support staff workers is not affecting the operation of the Colleg.e of Trades and Technology, is not affecting the level of services or the level or quality of instruction, as he indicated a fe.w days ago? ~ .

S?E.;l,.l<ER: The han. the Minister of Labour and :1anpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the ~on. member obviously knows that the operation of the College of Trades and Technology is more under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) . She can answer the question and is quite capable of doing sc. 7 8 J... l<

December 15, 19BO "'m. SPEAKER (Simms): ~lS VERGE : Tape 2942 EC - 2 Is that agreed? The hon . the Minis ter of Education . Hr . Speaker, the officials of the Depart:11ent of Education are in daily contact 1·nth t.:te President and the adninistration of the College of Trades and Tec~nolo~f and our information is tha~ classes and courses are going ahead at ~~e College of Trades as normal . Classes are on schedule, .exarns are being given on

schedule . The re is :;o harmful disruption in the quality of education being given the students. ~anagemen .t personnel have pitched in to allow for the efficient operation of the building and i~s support services. MR . LU SH: ~1R. SPEAKER : for Terra Nova . MR . LOSB : A supplementary, Mr . Spea~er. fl. supplementar y, the hon . the member I find it very difficult to know which minister to direct my questions to. SQME HON. MEMBERS: 11R . LOS!:l: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaj(er, I find it st.range to find that we can have eighty-bvo workers en s~r::.ke and for a minister to indicate that this is not hav~ng any effect on the I}L'i

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2943 SD - 1 MR. T. LUSH: level or quality of instruction, t'.vo ministers have OCJW indicated that, so I think this is a great injustice to the workers on strike. But, Mr.

Speaker, ~an the minister indicate whether or not there is any foundation to a story that was circulated in the media three or four days ago, maybe a little longer,to the effect that outside workers were comi~g in and doing the work of those people on strike, that is, workers of similar classification but working in other institutions, they were working at the College of T~ades and Technology for rather exce~;ive rates? I think the rate quoted was $2 9. 25 an hour . Can the minister indicate whet!-...er to her knowledge there is any foundation to that story? 'illhether it is the Minister of Education (Ms. L.

Verge), Mr. Speaker, whether it is the Minister of ~abour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), whether it is the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) I do not care as long as we get a.n answer to that question? AN HON . .!IEMBER: No comment? Further questions? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. :rn.. SPEAI-.'ER ( S irrms) : Supplerrentary the hon.member for Te=a Nova. :m~.. T. LUSH: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will direct the question specifically to the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

Can he indicate to the House whether or not there was anv foundation to the story circulated five or six days ago concerning outside workers coming to the College of Trades and Technology and performing the work of those , .. mrkers now on strike for excessive rates as high as $2 9. 2 5 an hom"?-which is rrore, by the way, ~han time and a half if •.ve use the rates that these •.•or .'<ers were getting. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and -'ianpower. 7El4R

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2943 SD - 2 MR. J. DINN: ~r. Speaker, I am not responsible for the operation of the Trades Colleqe and I will defer the question to the appropriate minister. SOME HON. Y!Er--!BERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPE;o.KER: member fo"r Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Oh, oh. Order, please! Final supplementary, ~r. Speaker. Final supplementary, tne hen. Hr. Speaker, there must be somebody who knows what is going on at the College of Trades and Technology. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR, FLIGHT: HR. SPEAXER: MR. T. LUSH: Oh, oh. Shame, shame. Order, please. Mr.

Speaker, I will put the question to the President of Treasury Board (Dr. J. Collin:) I mean, obviously, as I have said before, lt is a gross insult to the workers who 3.re presently or- strike to know that eighty-two of them are off work and it is not ~=fecting the operation of the college. So can the President of Treasury Board indicate to the House whether there is any substance to the story that was circulated last week that outside workers were coming into the College of Trades and Technology and performing the work of the workers that are on strike? Maybe that is why the services are not affected, Mr.

Speaker. And being paid $29.25 a hour, is there any truth to that? MR. S:?EAKER: The hen. ~inister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: It is difficult to know when the hen. member is finished his questioning. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Fools rush in where angels fear to tre~:i. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 7847

. ~ December 15, 1980 Tap e NO. 2943 SD - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the College of Trades and Technology has had a strike ongoing since the 7th of November- Most of the individuals on strike were in categories of work whereby their work could be quite adequately done for a period of time by other individuals, particularly, as the hon. MinisteJ; of Education (Ms. Verge) said 'the C'l.'l.nagement staff. 7848

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2944 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: There were a few occupations, particularly those that related to the safety of the buildings thems~lves - I am thinking of furnaces and that sort of thing- whereby staff from other institutions, voluntarily, not forced, voluntarily came in to protect the institution. This is an activity that goes on when many large institutions are subject to work stoppage . For instance, out at the Waterford Hospital a number of months or so ago the same thing happened and so on and so forth.

So that the government looks to its responsibilities when major institutions are at risk because of work stoppages; there are individuals who on a voluntary basis will go in to make sure that those institutions are not subject to un­ due hazards. Now, those individuals, if they go in during working hours, which is not common, but if they do they will get their usual pay. If they go in at times in addition to their usual working hours, they get normally time and a half. ~'lR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. :'1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Eagle River. Does the hon. member wish to yield? 1·1R. !USCOCK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. !!\ember for Terra Nova. ----- - 1·1R. :L.USH: NO'N then, Mr. Speaker, we are getting some of the truth. Can the minister indicate, can the President of Treasury Board indicate just how many workers are coming in? We have eighty-two on strike, are there eighty-two workers coming in and if so at what cost to the Province? MR. FLIGHT: keep the strike going. :1R. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: Per week. Hew much does it cost to The hon. the Minister of Finance. r1r. Sj?eaker, I am not certain >~here the hon. member gets his figures.

The last figure I heard was seventy-seven on strike, not eighty-two, b~t 1 will make a 7 '! ;_ Q

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 294A EL - 2 D:R. COL .LINS: check. I am thinking of,say, Friday; there might have been some change from Friday,but the information I had up .to Friday was there were seventy­ seven members of the work force on strike. As to the number of the people who came in from other institutions, I do not know the precise number but it is a very small nUmber. I do not know the precise number but if it is of the o.rder of several, n..o three, four; that type of thing. I will endeavor to get the exact number if it is of any particular interest.

It is cer­ tainly not anywhere near, not even closely, not even approach­ ing the number who are on strike. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Social Services. It is with regard to a study that was brought in by the Provincial Government stating that the highest cost of oil and by-products and stove oil in this Province was on the Labrador coast.

In this regard I wrote the minister and asked him if he would bring in a policy allowing people on social assistance in Labrador to have longer payments of $20.00, I believe it was 1 from April to November. Can the Minister of Social Services (T.Hickeyl inform this House has the government decided to bring in extra grants to people on social services in Labrador because of the high cost of fuel oil and longer seasons~ 7 s ~~ n

December 15, 1980 Tape 2945 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms}: The hon. the M~r.ister of Social Ser'T..;rices. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Spe~~er, the~e are two parts to that answer, I guess, that I suggest I should gi•Te the hon. gentleman. First of all, the matter of increased cost of fuel in Labrador is under review. I was in Labrador about a month ago and discussed with my staff there that problem, and it is presently und~r review. That is the first answer. The second part of the answer is that there is no plan within this fiscal year to change the present policy. Each case will be dealt with on its own merits.

If there are extenua.ting circumstances within a family in Labrador,as on the Island, then certainly additional monies will be made available to that family based on need and based on the conditions under which that need is established. That is the only way I can answer the hon. gentleman. But to say in ~esponse to his question as to a broad change of policy affecting every family ;..>here a special allowance or an additional ~'1\ount of money for fuel going to each family, no, not during the present fiscal year. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, the minister ended up stating that it is not in this year's Budget or this year's account and maybe it will be in next year's. With regard to the price of fuel being the highest in this Province - and the recommendation basically said fuel will end up getting higher -is the Ministerof Social Services saying ~hat he is not taking the recommendation of his social workers and airectors in 785

December 15, 1980 Tape 2945 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Goose Bay as well as his staff here who are rec-ommending that this extra cost should be given to the people on social services in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the han. gentleman gets so much information. He seems to know a gr.eat deal about what my social workers in Labrador and my staff in my deparb~ent here are recommending. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HICKEY: I sugge·st to him that his sources are not very good because no such recommendations have reached my desk and someone is putting him on, I suggest, if they tell hL~ that. I am sorry to hear if in fact he is being told that. Indeed, I would love to know the names of those who are telling him that. That is number one. Number two, I am aware - MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) . MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, would the Leader of the Opposition allow me to respond to the hon. gentlema~? MR. SPEA.I'{ER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: I am quite well aware of the difficulties experienced by families in Labrador, Mr.

Speaker, and furthermore there is a difference in the amounts of money provided for fuel to families in Labrador as compared to the Island. In cases where there is need, that same differential will be applied in the Labrador region in keeping with those costs. To embark upon a new policy for Labrador would be discriminatory,to say the least. When I embark upon that kind of policy, ~r. Speaker, by way of recommendation to my colleagues, it will affect this whole Province. MR. SP3AKER: O:!'der, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired . 7 85') , (_

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2946 NM - 1 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. ~R. F. ROWE: ~1r. Soeaker, I have a petition signed by 350 residents of the community of Dildo in the electoral district of Bellevue. I will read the ]Jrayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker.

"We, ~he residents of Dildo, support the Fishermen's Committee, the Society of United Fishermen and the Development Committee"-the Development Committee is a local comnittee of the Upper Trinity South Rural Development Association,-::-" in its effort to get Old Broad Cove Road upgraded." That is the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, this particular road apparently, and I might add that this matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) by a delegation and referred to the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power).

The /~.inister of Lands and Forests did receive the petition and out of courtesy passed it over to me because he thought Dildo was in the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde, but it is the next adjoining community to the district that I have the honour of representing. But this particular road, Mr. Speaker, starts in Dildo and runs towards the old railway track from Nhitbourne to Tilton, and it is a distance of four miles that needs to be upgraded. The purpose of upgrading the road, Mr.

Speaker, is not for transportation of people back and forth to work, or back and forth to communities or that sort of a thing, but tlris particular road leads ~o some heavy wood stands and some very good blueberry picking grounds. And the residents from IVhi tbourne and Blaketmm and Dildo and Old Shoo and Greens Harbour and Hopeall and ~ew Harbour all use that particular road, or try to use that road,I should say, for the purpose of getting firewood, nurnber one; wood to build small boats and 785?

December 15, 1980 Tai?e Nc . 2946 NM - 2 MR. F. ROWE: longliners; and wood to build homes and there is one sawmill operation in there. And as I already indicated,they also use it during the Summer for blueberry picking grounds. A local contra .ctor, Mr. Speaker, indicated that this road w-ould cost in the vicinity of about $13,000 only to upgrade for the purpose for which the people Wish to use it. And I wouid submit, Mr.

Speaker, that this small expenditure of $13,000 would be well · worth that expenditure in order to help the people at this point in time with high fuel costs, high unemployment, and would help them to provide fuel for their homes, wood for the building of their homes while they are unemployed, I fj :'1 '-

Decembe= 15 , 1930 Ta~e No . 294 7 DW - 1 Ml'l. . F. ROWE : cr renovations or additions to their homes and for the building of boats . And , o~ course, to help fami:ie s du::ing the blueberry picking season to 9rovide an additional income . So, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the peo:>le statec in the t> r~yer of t..'-1~ petidor. . I • . .-hole -heartecly sur,.,o::t t:he cel:itior! and t:h a-:~ k t!'le :-linist'i!!: cf· :o:::-est ~e sources and Lands ('!r . ?mte::- ) :or his courtesy ~n ?assing this oarticular 9eti:ion tc me .

I as!< that it: be laid upon t!1e table of the f.ouse ar.d referred to the deparL~ent to which i~ ~e lates . ~!R . SPEAKER (Si mms) : .Jl...r.y further oer.icion s? The hon . the Leader o~ the 09po sition. .. ,R . L. STIRLING : ~r . S?eaker , I rise i~ sup~ort of the petition . T~e delegation came in to see the \linister of F-:>re st <escurces and La~cis because they · . .rere given the imor-e ss1 on that: ;_t: is qoing tc !:le trr-~~cd as a ~c rest access ~oad .

And :~ view of ~he face that it is in the district of Bellevue I 'oulo say that this ?et:it:i ·;)n ;.;il 2. ·~et the vrom-otest at-:en~i='n.And I ho9e that sorneboci.y on ~~e other side can confirm today that t~e Sl3 ,000 has been found and it 'i7ill "be upgraceci i:nmediately . '-L~ . SP:SAKE ~ : Any further ?etitions? 7 d 3:- ,

Uecember 15, 1980 Tape No . 294 DW - 2 ORDERS OF TEE DAY ~ocicn, second reading of a bill, "An Act ~es;>ecting Th e Assessment Of Real Property And The Imoosition And Collection Of Certain Taxes In The City o= St . John's ". (Bill No . 84 ) ·"'R . SE?E A.:<C:R (Simms ): The bon . ~inister of Labour and ~ran power . MR . J. DDlN : Thank you . Mr . S9eaker . I ha•1e a :ew comments I ·.v:..sh t ma ke on thi s ?ieee of legislation. F1rs1:. o= all, I ·.vant to co mpliment the ~ini s1:. er on her introductcr v r:marks in e:rolaininq ':he purpose cf ':his ;>ieee of legi slation and the fact that the ::ity of St .

John's •.-lishe s c:~is i.egi sla -:ure to provide the capabilitv of c:..angina :from an inequitable rental 7alue system of taxation to a more eq uitable capical <~alue system . Notv, ,\\r . Speake r, the Ci.ty of St . John 's bas been talking about ~~is for some y~a rs an d they have no~o.; eventuallv gotten arounC. to, ac-cually with the Departme!lt of !olu nici;>a l Affairs and the legislative drafts peo9le gettir.g this .~ct together . nopeiull:; , t-tr .

Speaker , it can be pa ss ed by this Hou se orior to th e end of this year so t'"l ;;t che capital value system c;;n =orne into -olay.in 1981 1 so that in t~e f.irst year 8SF

December 15,1980 Tape No. 2948 AH-1 !.fR. DINN: commercial properties, industrial properties can be converted and in the following year, in 1982,they can get on with a phased-in approach to converting the rental value system to the capital value system and the effect on the taxpayers can be phased in over that five year period as outlined in the act. ~ow, Mr.

Speaker, two hon. members opposite spoke on this bill and it makes one wonder. number·one, whether they read the bill and,if they did,whether they understood it,and, n~b~two,whether they even listened , they bothered to even listen to the minister in her opening remarks. Because she explained quite clearly ~11hat the bill was attempting to do,and basically what we are discussing now is the principle of that bill as to whether we should provide the City of St. John's with the capability of changing from the rental value system to the capital 'Talue system.

Just to give an indication to the kind of disjointed approach that we have had to the discussion on this bill to this point in time, the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) agreed '"i th the principle of the bill; of course,that is what we are discussing right now, the principle of this bill, so in his speech he said he agreed with the principle·,however, he was not going to vote for the bill. So that is just a contradiction, I guess, in how one approaches legislation in the House.

If you agree with the principle.and we are discussing the principle,one would think you would go for the principle and if there were some parts in the bill that you would like to change, you would do that in committee and make recommendations and if they are accepted by the House then they are accepted, and if there are additions that you would like to make then you can do that in committee also. 7857

De>cember 15 ,1980 Tape No. 2948 .!I .F.- 2 ~!? . DI~"N : 'Now, ~!r . Speake!', he also said that he ,.,.a:tted co stand up fo r the citizens, the ordinary citizens or the people of St. Jchn 's,ar.d then he '"'ent: on to say tl'lat - and it is recorded in Hansard, he said, "The people of St .John 's have been seeking the people cf the rest o: the Province dry ." So in one sense he ~·1ants to sta:1d up :or the people o: the City of St. John 's and i:t another sense he talks about ho•• they are 3ucking the rest of the Province dry . And then ~e goes on to prove his case, Mr .

Speaker, by listing o:£ or oy telling this F.~use about all of t:he pavement U?On pavement ~~at the City of St . Jo~~ ·s gets and he ne~iected tc tell che House .to in:orm t~e F.ccse.~n the ot~e ~ hand, that every piece of pava~ent that goes on over pavement in the City of St . John's is paid one hundred per cenc :or by the people of St . John 's. !iffi . Tnm·!S : ( :naudible) MR . OD IN : It is paid one hundred per ce~t by, ~!r . Speaker - now the hon. the member for Grand Bank ~~-1 ::-. Thoms) ,.,.ants to interrupt again becau se he ca.Imoc sit in his seat and be quite .

The hon.member should be able to do that because he has an opportunity af~er ~e if he wishes to speak on this bill. ~1R . THOr-iS: (Inaudible) 7B5f!

December 15, 1980 Ta;;>e )iO . 29 49 RA ~ 1 HR. DTh ~ : That is his problem r-Ir.Speaker, The rules of the House state that I have certain rights and privileges in this House and the hon. member should abide by those rules, otherwise he is going to get burnt. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr.Moores)in his speech also attacked the Mayor and the councillors,.Mr. Speaker, and he attacked private individuals, ~ h.E! __ Even ing _::J:'~legr~,. the J?remier was attacked for giving assistance to the Synchrolift, Mr.

Speaker, we have no appol­ ogies to make for any of those items, it has very little if anything to do with this piece of legislation which is the principle of whether the people of the city of Et. John's, The mayor and councillors of the city on a re­ quest to this legislature have a reasonable request in here, and that is a request to change from the r.ental value system to the c.api tal Value System. And everyone agrees, o£ cours2 .• that this is a fair and equitable, or more equitable taxation system than the one that is in place down there now.

Anyone who knows the district of Pleasantville will know that well over half of the people living in the district of Pleasant­ ville live in apartments,and all of these people pay under the inequitable system that is in place right now. Now, also , in converting to this more equitable system, this system that is in place in 80 to 90 per cent of all municipal­ ities on the North American continent, the councillors,irt con­ junction with the Department of r-Iunicipal Affairs and Housing, have requested-and I believe it is somewhere in

Section 120 or thereabouts-have requested that not only de we do this but that we go to- because they are ready they can convert on the 1st of January 1981 to Capital Value,to the Capital value system in commercial and industrial,and they have a n1sq

December 15, 1980 Tape No . 290 R.~ - 2 ~iR. DINN : year to prepare for the setting in place of the capital Yalue ~ystem by January lst.,l982. Now, I know that I have discussed this with the city of St. Jonn's over the past several years, As a matter of fact,in 1976 when I was Minister of Municipal Affairs- it was discussed at that time and the City of St. John's in its wisdom, I believe in its wisdom, ha·s now request this legislation and it behooves us ,I believe, t-'lr. Speaker, in fairness to the people of the City of St.

John's,that we should provide the C-;)uncil with the capability ot converting because we all know that this is a more equitable system and of course the principle of the bill~ I do not believe anybody disagrees on the opposition side with the principle of bil1. The Leader of the Opposition complimented the City Council for the positive move that they have made and that is with respect to this legislation,! would ass•l!Tie. The city had much to de and the City solicitor had much to do with 7 8 r~ n

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2950 SD - 1 MR. J. DTNN: the drafting of the legislation that we have before us now. It has been basically approved by the city before it 1vas brought to the Le~islature by the ~inister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Newhook). Of course, she has gone through every clause in the bill and has agreed with every clause,obviously~ there ma1: be an amendment or so in the legislation that ive can discuss in Committee. P~d basically, ~r. Speaker, it provides f-:::>r what the Council of the City ?f St. John's wc.nt3 to do to make a more equitible system of taxatio~ for the city.

So the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) stated that the act •,;as poorly jrafted but I think on reflection,if one goes through the various aspects of the act, and of course, there are explanations for each of the clauses in the act, that if there are questions, and I have gone through the act twice-and I am not a learned gentleman like my friend from Grand Banks (~r. L. Thorns), certainly not learned in ~he law; he may find some - MR. STIRLING: Can you explain Clause 101? MR. J. DINN: Well, the ~inister can explain Clause 101 when she gets up to speak on the legislation.

But the fact of the matter is there may be some clauses in this act that need change. I have not seen any, I have gone through it twice now and there were some questions that I had about several sections in the legislation and, of course, I have had my queries answered or answered to my satisfaction. So, Mr. Speaker, the ~inister, of course, I have been watching her down there listening to all the speakers in the neuse and she has been taking notes and, of course, she will address herself to some of the questions that the hon. members opposite have had. So without further ado, Mr.

Speaker, I support the bill, I thi::~k it is long overdue It is a piece of .., ., r- i CJ 0

Dece~ber 151 1980 Tape No . 2950 SD - 2 l<l.R. J . DINN : legislation that t~e people of the City of St. John 1 s I of course I after it is enacted , r..fter it becomes

an act and if it becorr.es

an act, \-Till be treated more fairly , especially the ?eople in the rental accommodations in the city which,over a five year period ,will be .looked after and I >vould anticipate .:hat there will be scme decrea ses in rent . But whether c~ere a~e or there are not 1 tha peo?le i~ rental accommodations in the city nm1 ?ay 1-1ay too muc!:l for the acoommodations that they have in taxation to the City of St . John 1 s; I think it is something like 30 to 35 per cent of the income on the apar+..ment. So I support the princip.le of the bill and hope that thi s Hous e sees .:it to allow the ?eople of the City of St .

John 1 s a r.1ore equitable tax situation . MR . SPE..lj(ER (3utt) : The hon . member for Lapoile . 7ea?

December 15, 1980 Tape N-::>.2951 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of dealing with the rubbish that we just heard from the hon. gentleman who just took his seat. The hon.gentleman is becoming a source of embarrassment with his low level debat- ing in this House. He is becoming a source of embarrassment to the Premier and to the government. The hon. gentleman was asked by the Leader of the Opposition what he thought of

Section 101. The hon. gentleman told us during his re- marks that most of Pleasantville, his district, that most of the people down there live in apartments and were paying rent;and he was delighted, delighted for their sake,that the rental value system is now going to be replaced with the capital value system. He is delighted about that but he did not answer the Leader of the Opposition when he asked him about 101. Andwhat 101 means, Mr.

Speaker, and do not let anybody be codded in this House, what it means,whether it is poor drafting on somebody's pa=t or whatever the reason for it is what it means is that if the landlord does not pay up then there can be a warrant issued to seize the pro- perty of the tenant. That is wh~t it means, Mr. Speaker. And I did not hear the member for ~leasantville (J.Dinn) protect his constituents who occupy these apartments against this sort of action on the part of the parties.

If the landlord does not pay his taxes, the sheriff or whomsoever can move in, swoop down on the tenant and seize the tenant's property to pay the landlord's bills. That is what it means, Mr. Speaker. Let !ll.e read it , in case any hen. gentleman may have any doubts about it, .1.Ul (l), "For the pur- pose of enforcing payment of taxes, the City Clerk may issue warrants of distress,and seize and sell any gocds or chattels 7 8 0 :\

Decembe r 15, 1980 Tape No . 2951 EL- 2 MR. NEARY: of the person by whom such amounts shall be due or any tena:r:1t or leas ·ee thereof." The (Jovernment House Leader cannot deny that that is of such a general nature, is so vague, mentions the tenant in that clause, that there is no doubt in anybody's mind who has an ounce of common sense what it means, that if the landlord does not pay his ·bills, his taxes, the City Clerk can issue war­ rants to have the property of the tenant sei,zed.

And we just heard the minister there saying, "I support this bill because a lot of my constituents are living in apartments." There is no way the ministe .r of Municipal Affairs (H.Newhook) can justify that, no way in this Bot.

December 15, 1980 Tape 2952 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: world. You can argue all you like that it is sloppy drafting, if indeed that is what it is, because this whole act, Mr. Speaker, is very poorly put together. It looks to me to be a hodge-podge of two or three acts hastily put together under one act. There seems to be no rhyme or reason, no continuity to the act. And I would say that the reason that it was put together in a hurry was because the City of St. John's wanted to get it passed before the House rose for Christmas. Well, I would say that is too bad for the City of St. John's. Because there is no way, Mr.

Speaker - I do not care if I am here for my Christmas Day dinner -there is no way that this bill is going to be railroaded and rammed through this House in a hurry, a bill that so drastically affects the poor people of the city of St. John's. Mr. Speaker, there is another aspect of this bill that I hope no hon. member of this House will be fooled by: It is an increase in taxes for the majority of the people of St. John's. I hope that nobody is naive enough, is stunned enough not to think that this is not an increase in taxes.

This is a substantial increase in taxes for the ordinary person who owns his own home in the city of St. John's, who is now struggling to keep his head above water, struggling to stay away from personal bankruptcy in this city. And they are numerous, Mr. Speaker. So let us put that to rest right away. Let us not be fooled into thinking that all we are doing here . just to please the poor old City of St. John's, all we are doing here is just changing from the rental value to t~e capital value, when in actual fact, Mr. Speaker, it is an increase of taxes, almost double, I would say, if not double.

It is double taxation for almost 17,000 householders in the city of St. John's. You multiply tha~ by five and 785S

Dece mber 15 , 19Bu Tape 2952 EC - 2 ~~ . NEAR!:' : th at is close to SO , 000 people who tw o or three vear s do•m the line will be payin.; double the aJnou!'lt oi oroperty tax they are payin.;: now - ~!R . EA)l'COCK : )!?. • )l'E'A-~ y : Thanks to ~he Tories . - thanks to the ten ~ory membe rs in St . John' s who co not have the courage to stand up in this hen . gouse and come to the rescue of the ord inary 9erson ':ho owns a ho use in the city of St . John's . ?hey do not have the co ura ge , Mr . Speaker . That is gracit~~e for you ! The pecple in St .

John 's el;;ot ten Tories to this House an~ ;vhen the City of St . John 's come co che!n with a bill t:.o double the tax es of the householdars in St . John's , they rubber stamp it . Sot<!E RON . MEt-!BERS : Hear, hea r! MR. NEARY: They say , 'Oh, yes, whatever the c:.ty of St . John's \"CUlts we will give it:. to them, e•1en though they may be running an i:1efficient , incompet:.ent organization - building parking garages and doing all idnds of silly, :~ r; ~

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2953 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: foolish things with their money. \Ve will rubber stamp it and let them have a 100 per cent increase in property tax in the City of St. ,John's." MR. J. CARTER: We will sock it to the tenants instead. HR. NEARY: !JI.r. Speaker, now I am coming to the tenants. What guarantee is there that the tenants are going to qet ~he benefits of any tax savings by the landlords? Now , Mr. Speaker, if the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), who represents one of these St.

John's districts, if t~e hon. gentleman is genuine and sincere in seeing that this saving, if there is an y , is passed on to the tenant, let him stand up and support our recommendation, that a law be made in this House forcing and compelling, making it compulsory for the land­ lord to pass back in cash a payment to a tenant on the amount saved by substituting the capital rental value system for the rental value system. If the ron. gentleman believes what he just said,let him stand up and support that . And also, Mr. Speaker, let the han. Tory St.

Jo~~·s member stand up and support another recommendation that I am going to make, and that is that no person, no resident of St. John's, should have his property seized, should have his home taken away from him because he cannot pay his municipal taxes. r.m.. HAl.'" COCK: No one should have that happen. No one should have that happen. Not onl y in St. John's - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ~~ARY: Not only in the City of St. John's, as my han. friend reminds me, but nowhere in this Province should a person lose his home, lose his house because he cannot afford to pay his taxes.

Now an argument may be used, "\'l'ell, the finance companies can come in and seize their home." ':'hat is a different matter, Mr. Speaker, that is a technical ma~ter, it is a different matter. I am not saying that the taxes and 7867

Dece.~ber 15 ,. 19 S 0 MR . NEAR Y : a person's estate - MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: Tape No . 2953 NM - 2 arrears shou ld not become a part of Tax his wages or something. - that the home cannot be sold until the taxes are paid. What I am saving is this, and here is a Liberal principle that I am enunciating Mr. Speaker, and this is a Liberal reform. The Liberal reform that I am announcing now is this, that nowhere in Newfoundland, nowhere in this Province, should a person lose his home, his home or her home for taxes in arrears, because they cannot pay their municipal taxes. SOME 'EION. MEMBE;RS : MR. NEARY: MR .

HANCOCK : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Now if the t~n Tory members in St. John's - That is a Liberal platfo .rm. I will make that a plank in our platform right here and now and I saw the leader pounding his desk there, and I would assume - HR . STIRLING : I already said it in my debate. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman already said it. I am sorry I was no ·t here to hear it. MR. STIRLING : We are all in agreement. MR. NEARY: We are all in agreement. It is a part of the Liberal platform. It is a part o£ our policy. It is another great Liberal reform.

All the reforms in Canada, and in Newfoundland, all the great reforms were brought in by a Liberal government, by Liberals. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! ~8 . HA NCOCK : Not according to ~- Barry. 785?

Decernber 15, 19 80 Tape No. 2954 AH-1 MR. NEARY: And this great reform, Mr. Speaker,will be brought in by any Libera~ government in this Province. And let me repeat what it is again, especially =or the benefit of the St. John's Tory members, ten of them,who have broken faith now with the electorate, with the people who elected them. They are betraying the people who have placed their faith and their confidence in them. It turns out to be blind faith, blind faith. They are now going along with the City of St. John's, and not only that , Mr.

Speaker, but the city that did not have the courage and the gumption to implement this tax before the next election. They are going to stall it, put if of until 1982 when they think they will have themselves tucked back securely into office,and then they will come on with the tax, doubling the property tax for homeowners in St. John's. They may get a rude awakening, Mr. Speaker. The people of St. John's are not that stunned. ~lR. MOORES : That is right. M...q. NEARY: They are not going to have the wool pulled over their eyes by that crowd.

They have had it happen to them before but it is not going to happen again. 'In 1982, we will start to phase in in 1982, after the election is over and we are all down there in City Hall again,'so they think. I would say all somebody has to do in this city right now , Mr. Speaker, is to run a slate against them, all they have to do is get somebody to run for Mayor and fill the number of pigeon­ holes for the councillors , run a slate and she would be gutted from one end to the other because the people of St.John's are fed up with that crowd, fed up l'lith them. And, Mr. Speaker, if I were on 7860

)ece:n!>er :5,1980 Tape No . 2954 _:l_'{ -2 11.tR . ~lEARY : the slace I cou:d win a.T'l elect~on en t~is bill alone. ~~c co not le~ the Tory members not-1 stand up L1 this House and start cri:1gina and scrabbing ar.d crawl~ng and tryinc ~o cling on by their !i:lgernalls. Lat chem get up , i: ':hey have ar.y :::ourage,anc vote again st this bill -b ecause! am goi::g to \"01:e against it. I ar:1 going to · vote agai:1st :.t. I..ec th~~ stand up an~ have 1:he co urage of their convictions . Do not t·.·Jist and tur:1 and be >oJishy -~.,rashy.

I challe:~ce c~~~ now to stand ~p for ch~ ?eople who elected them and do not be CO\ IIard s. Do not stand u? for the m1.lJ.ionaire landlords in this city . .~d. Y.r . Speaker, let us :~ot h~ar ~,e foolish arg~~ants , •Oh , in order ~o qec ~ore apart~ents and get more apartme n~ buildings built,we have to have ~his, we are disco~raging development: What silly, foolish nonsense!

I think in the last couple of years I have heard mo re arguments goinq on i:1 City Hall and more briefing sessions - they must have a brie:ing session dow:-t there to decid~ tllhether chey are going ::c go ~~e bat~room or net - more oriefinc session3 about ~.;hether they a:-e going to allow t!"lat ;par~: .. ~ent buildinc to be constructed - ''"'Y, onlv recent:y I hearc :.beer. 3et~er Homes wanting to spend $20 ~illion or 530 ~illion, Carol Developers wan~ to S?enc 7 },!7ii

December 15, 1980 Tape 2955 EC - 1 "'lR. NE.:"\RY: another $20 million or $30 million, or $10 million or $15 million to put up apartment buildings. There is no shortage of applications to build apartments in this city. That is j~st a weak-kneed excuse for soc~ing it to the people of this city, and they are not going to get away with it, even though it is before Christmas and the government are hoping ~hat the debate in this House will be buried on page 22 of the Eveninq Telegram . What a Christmas present to give tne people of this city! What a Christmas present!

We are going to double property taxes on the homeowners of this city, and then they try to cover it up and weasel their way out of it by saying, 'But the tenants are going to save a few dollars.' How do they know that, Hr. Speaker? They do not know it. Unless this House can give the tenant a law saying that the landlord has to pay back the savings to them, unless they can do that. Hon. members of this House know some of the landlords in this city. And I ask hon. members, ministers, Tory members for St.

John's, in all sincerity now, tell us man-fashion, ievel with us, be straight, be honest, do hon. members think that the landlords that they can think of in this city are going to be charitable enough and generous enough that when they get a few savings under this new capital value system that they are going to write a cheque or they are going to go down and draw the cash out of their bank in the Bahamas somewhere and pass it over to the tenants who occupy their apartments? Are they going to do that, Hr. Speaker?

How many landlords does Your Honour know? ·They will get their accountants to work, the Chartered Accountants and the lawyers wili be called i1: and they will find some way to chisel the tenants out cf that money. I heard the argument used in chis House, 'Oh, well, they will not be asking for a rent increase for the next year or two.' What silly nonsense! They have no 7 :J 71

December 15, 1980 Tape 2955 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: conscience, Mr. Speaker. Some of th~~ are dominated by the Cos a Nostra; the Mafia own and operate some of them. :>.nd the han. gentlemen will have the gall and the nerve to get up and tell us, 'Oh, yes, they are not all owned by the Coas Nostra or the Mafia,· but some are. I tell you, you have to go a long way in this city to find a decent landlord; although there may be some around, you have to go a long way. And they vlill get up in a minute and defend them and they will say , 'Oh, yes, they will pass the savings or>.

They 1"ill not be corning looking for an increase for a year or two.' And we are supposed to vote 'yes' for this bill on the strength of their saying t~at. What a joke, Mr. Speaker! Who are they t.::-ying to cod? And let me make another point. Apar~ from all the other points that I just made, let me make another point. I believe the Leader of the Opposition referred to this the other day, that in• this city there is now a 2 per cent fuel tax, two cents a gallon collected on heating fuel in this city. That is supposed -Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if you arc aware of it or not -but that two cents a gallon is supposed to compensate the city with the revenue that they would be losing because they do not have the capital value system in this city up to the present time. Now, Mr. Speaker, are they going to take that two cents a gallon off the fuel tax? Are they, Mr. Speaker? Did the minister tell us that when she introduced the bill? The minister did not even refer to it. Will this House demand and insist and make it mandatory and compulsory, and pass a law that that two cents will be removed? MR.

STIRLING: As a matter of fact, it is br ought forward in this new act. MR. NEARY: It is brought forward in the ne•,; act. You are darned right it is brought forward in the 7 ·S ;: I

December 15 , 1980 'rape 2955 EC - 3 ~L~ . ~'E.l),RY : new act, because che y have no intention of taking it off . Sock it to t.'le poor old people of St . John's who are now struggling :or survival ~ecause of the government's oil boom syndrome driving up the cost of living, driving up the cost of mortgages , driving up the cost of real estate, driving up the cost o: homes - all ~aused by this gover~e~~, out ranting and raving an.d the Premier waving his arms, glassy-l::!yed a:1.d wild -eyed, talking about oil got everybody driven off their heads in St . John's especially , about oil. And, ~tr .

Speaker, it is going to be the ordinary homeow~e= and the ordinary person who is renting an apartment •.,•ho is going to pay dearly fQr this gover:1.men~·~ oil boom s~md=ome . T!ley are doing it ~m.... ':'hey Ca!'.not meet t."leir mortgages , they cannot pay their rents. Tn come the oil companies ,inflating 7 ~ 7 ~

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2956 EL - 1 HR. NEARY: the price of real estate and property and rent and homes in this city and they do not even want to hobnob with the people of St. John's, they are too good. The oil company employees, their wives are now downtown forming their own little clubs, their own little =lubs. The people of St.John's are not good enough for them. .:m HON. MEMBER: Are you sure it is true? MR. NEARY: That is true. The hon. gentleman, I do not know if he has been invited to one of them yet or not. Mr. Speaker, they are forming their own clubs and, Mr.

Speaker, the oil boo~ if it does come,will not help these people that I am talking about, the ordinary person in this city, it will not help them. If I can persuade one member, one Tory member to vote against this bill, Mr.Speaker, I think my speech would have been very worthwhile, but it is going to be a job to get the leopards to change their spots. They will get up - I will tell you what they will do, t~e lawyers over there especially, they will find some way, they will find something they can hang onto, some way to support this bill.

They may use weasel words to do it,but they will find some way because this is a government measure and rather than betray their constituents, rather than knife their con­ stituents in the back they will say,' Oh, it is a government measure, I had to vote for it~ Maybe a wrong government measure - MR. TULK: The Minister of Hines and Energy (L.Barry) will vote against it. MR. NEARY: ~o, the Minister of Mines and Energy, do not fool yourselves, is not voting against it. 787~

., December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2956 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman may have minor outbursts of false courage once in a while,but I guarantee you on this one he does not have the intestinal fortitude to get up,after getting clobbered and going over to Dalhousie ahd then coming back and running in a safe St. John's Tory seat and after making all kinds of promises and pledges to the people of St. John's. Let him now get up, let him sho~ his true colours, let us see the Tories, the Tory blue now flying in the wind, .l-lr.

Speaker, Because the City Council came and they said,'Clh, we must have this, we must have it; the government,and especially the ten Tory members from St. John's,rubber stamp it. MR. lvARREN: Yes, and before December 31st. MR. NEARY: And they have to have it before the end of December, so the minister tells us,so they can get their tax rolls in order the first of January. I will tell you ,the City Council of St. John's will be ever- lasting grateful to the minister and the ten red-roaring Tories in this city. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me go over it again just to make sure.

This is an increase in taxes for 17,000 householders in this city. AN HON. MEMBER: Is the media listening? MR. NEARY: I hope they are listening. I hope they are listening so they come out with their editor­ ials and the Open Lines will be full of it; 'Where is my member in St. John's? Where is the member for St. John's East (W.Marshall) when we need him: ~fuere is the member for Mount Scio(L.Barry) when we need him? Where is the member for St. John's North (J .Carter) when we need him? 'ivhere is the member for St. John's Centre (Dr .Mc~icholas) 7 8 7 .~

Decer:6er 15, 1980 Ta9e ~o . 2956 =::L - 3 l·L~ . NEARY : when \·le need him, Sir Galle. had, on his •..;hlte horse who came do·,m in t!le centre ':o succeed dear old .!\nk: ' Dear old J>.nk would not go along '"'i th this . Let the hon . gentleman get up and speak aqa1nst it and voce against this bill . So that is the first thL~g, it is an increase in taxes for 17,000 - double taxation . Six to eight thousand tenants , no guarantee they are going co get any benefits from this ~ill, no guaran~ee . Thi s House should give them this gua rantee if we are sincere abo ut it .

The t~~ cents ~er gallon on sales tax,not goi~g tc ~taken off and ~!r . Speaker , sei zure of property owned by tenants to pay off landlord's debts . And tpen I tossed i~ , ~r . Speaker, the Liberal reform, one of the gr eat reforrns,and that is that nobody .;ut nobody in t.l-Je city of St. John's , or anY'.·ihe:::-e .:..~ Ne1~foundland or Labrado r should lo se their heme should have their :1ome sei zed , should have the sherif f swoo~ do\.tn on them, should ::ave his ::ome acvert :.ised for in the pape= because of non- payment o£ munlcipal ~axes . ::R. ~n:x:K : Tory tiJl .es are hard t:U~es . 78/R

December 15, 19SO Tape ~o . 2957 Dt-i - 1 ~!R. s. NEA..~Y : There is no doubt a!:>out it, 'Tory times are hard tL~es'. There is no doubt a~ou~ ~~at and the people are beginnin~ to realize it. ~~~ . lv . :-1ARSHil.LL : '~R . S . ~ErlRY: !Inaudible) ~ - Sne~ker, the hon . me~ber !:::>r St . John 's East {~r . '1arshalll is over there :~mv, he is champinc at the bit, he is ;et~ing ready to spri:~g to his Eeet as soo n as I sit do•.vn . And he is oicking and chc-:-sin~ . now in his :nind his •.-.1ea sle 1vords that he is ~oing to use.

He is going co be very care:ul . ! will bet you he \vill :iraa :.n the bigcest red herring i:'l this debate vou e•1er sa\.; i:'l vour li:e to try ~o distract his consti­ tuen ts and the 9eople of St. John's from the real issue here , the real issue being th at 17,000 homeowners in che cicy of St . John's are aoi:~g to ~ay double ca~es in ~ ... o or three vears from now . They are goi:~g to have t:heir caxes doubled . Doubled ~ A:~d the city council that they !lave gocten in bed •.;ith did :~ot have c!le courage :.o do it before t:he electian .

They are going cc do it after the election . t.oihat a brave ::ro•.;d ~ They are a crowd o: bra~e souls. MR. . G . t-lARREN : '!'hey will not be around . ~R. . S. ~EARY : That is richt, ~r. S~eaker, they will not be around . 'vole have seen encugh now of their incompetence in the last few years . • ~\l HON . '!EMBER : \o!R. . S . ~ARY : {I ~audib le) legislation . Oh, they did not even bocher to ch~cl<. T!ley just accepted it . They said, 'NelL \'/hat ­ ever the city :.;ishes ,that is wha <: the city ·,o~i::.l ~et' . llj;i 7

December 15, 1980 ':'orpe No . 295 Dv! - 2 'IR . S. :JE.~RY : Oh, ~hey iust came then . This had to be discussed in Cabinet , :'!r . S9eaker, it had co be a:>oroved around the Cabinet table . All the blue .bloods had to sit down and look at this bill before it was brought into the r:ouse . "t~ . TTJ!J< : M~ . S. NEARY : The city lvrc.te the leqislation . The c~t~ wrote ~he leqisla~ion - I :nust sa ~. "!r . Speaker, I have to say thi::;, ;.,rith all due =.-escect to our legislative draftsmen, 1.;ho I consider t.) be very good I doubt if thev had any inpu~ bto ~h i s .

This •,;as a bill that •,;a s <ira:ted, I wou ld say, cut side tile Justice Depart:nent . Draf~ed outside,because I cannot see ocr own legal draftsmen makin~ a blund er li~e t~e on e that is in here about the tenants and the landlords, the '::enar:'.:s oayL~g because the landlords re:use to pay their taxes . Now , ~.r. S9eaker, it is no <;?Oo d, ,_ is no good for Tcry m~~ers, ten Tory St . John's members t.o get U? and sa y, 'Oh, yes , there ~s nothing 1ve can do ?.bout this because this is the city of St . John's' . T!'lis is :;. aovernment bill, Mr. Speaker .

Do not let the :;>ress ge t fooled ~y '=.hei:::- smoot!'! talking anq their red herring­ and they are taking •.:p us to '=.he Gulf of St . La1·1rence and back down a~ain in their S?eeches ! Do not let them aat carried a"v:av ! ?in them dovm and say, 'Loo k, are yo u voting for an L'lcrease double the M~ount of oropert y tax on the se 17, 000 householders! Are you voting fer that? Do not let them say , 'On , look , we would like to be able to vote against it ' . Force t:.'"lem to ·.-ote agains;: it ! I ~.,rill stay here unt ~l Christm.: .s Day i= I have to . SOME HON . ~~ERS : Oh, c?l! 7 ~ 7R

Dec~~ber 15 , 1980 Ta9~:: No . 2957 OW - :3 ·'1R. S . NEARY: Mr . S_oeaker , let them not be hypoc~itical ! uo not let the~ be r.y?ocricical abcut it, Mr . S9e.aker . ?in them cot-m and let them show their true colours . Let them sho1.,r the ;>eople of this city , who e l 'ecte<i them , t.,rhe~e they stand ; where they are when t:ley are needed . or will thev run atvay like co~o1ards1 We had better remerr.'::ler this , ~-lr . S9eaker , 1 Co1~ards v1ee9 and t .ra.itors die 1 • A~ HON . MEMBER: '1R. S .

NEl--~Y : I Inaudible ) I kno,.; ·.-here the hon . gentle - man fits in ''lith one o:: the landlc::-ds i:1 :his Prov i nce . I speak for nobody in this !louse only mys e lf, l'!.r. S9eaker, I would l i !<e to knm>~ t.;ho the hon . qentleman spea.ks for . And that is another matter and we \vill deal wit.~ that: at another time < • .;hen t·le get around to our cenilict o:: i:~teresl: legislation . So , Mr . Speaker , I am going to vote aga ins c the bill for ~e reasons I just gave . I k~ow the bill is going co be r~ed ~hrou~h by the government majority .

It is an awful , a~,.,ful Christmas ;>resent to g i ve the oeo?le of this city, Mr . S9eaker. r cannot find one qood .a.spect, one good feature of this bill . Now, maybe in due ccu:rse if t.he hon . Government F-ouse Le aC:er (Mr . ~1ar s hall ) will tel!. us , 1 Oh , well, all the other cities of Canada 1 - r knotv what he is going to do, he is going to get U? and drag in a red herr i ng and say, 1 r.Vell, t hey have it everywhere else in Canada so "hY should 1~e not have .:!. t he~e ? 1 Is that ~,·hat the 9eo9le elected him for? rs t~at what they elected hi~ for, to do what ~~ey are 6oing out in Alberta?

They elected him to ?rotect t.~eir individual rights, not to worry about Torontc or !talifa:.;: or Albert:.a or 'Fa:.couver . 78:'9

uecember 15, 1980 TaDe No. 2957 DVI - 4 ~~IE. S. ~TEA:?.Y: Now, let us see, Mr. Sceaker, let us see now where t~ey stand. I challenge the hen. gentlemen. I challenge them to vote against this das- tardly ?ieee of legislation brought in a few days be­ fore Christ:nas that they ho9e can be rc.rnrned through the House and shoved over en page 7 ;J 8 il

:: December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2958 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: twenty-twa of The Daily News and The Evenincr Telegram and not make the television or radio station. Very well, Mr. Speaker, somehow or other we can ma~age to hang her aawn aver here lang enough that the message will filter out to the people in this city that they are being done in my their mernbers.and their government. SOME HON. ME~~ERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. SOME RON. MEl"!BERS: Hear, hear. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I want to address a few wards to the bill that is before the Hause but nat necessarily in relation to the wards given by the han. member far LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary). Make no wonder he is the senior back~encher in British North American politics at the Present time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HO~ . ~ffiMBERS : MR. MARSHALL: reasons against this bill Hear, hear! Oh, oh! ~-lr. Speaker, we have heard various given by the Opposition and various things stated in their attempt to confuse the situation.

The fact of the matter is that this particular bill- ~he principle of this bill, and what this bill does- this bill is in essence the same as the present bill that is in effect in the city of St. John's with respect to taxes with the one exception,th~t it changes-the major exception and the major principle of the bill,that it changes the basis of levying property tax from the present rental value system to the capital value system. And this has been brought in, ~!r.

Speaker, because it represents the sum total of recommendations ~ade again and again bv various concerns and various commissions which have been charged with the responsibility of inquirinc into an equitable and fair system of taxa~ion, fair for all citizen in the area. It 1'-'aS, Mr. Speaker, the 7:36

December 15, 1980 ":'ape No. 2958 SD - 2 MR. W. !:-L~RSHALL: recommendation, it was touched upon and it was a recommendation of the Fraser Commission, it constituted one of the main recommendations of the lvhelan Commission,and it certainly was very, '7ery stronqly reco8~~nded by the Commission of Inquiry into the St. John's Urban Region which is commonly known as the Henley Commission. And I want to - li.N HON . MEMBER: MR. t-'.ARS HALL: opposite can - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ~RSHALL: (Inaudible) - now the han. gentleman there City Hall \van ted it too. - and by City Council as well, by people interested, Mr.

Speaker, in arriving at a fair and equitable and reasonable system of property taxation and that is the whole reason for this bill. I refer to the Henley Co~mission, Mr. Speaker, the third and final report on page 197. I just want to quote a little bit from it. And I quote, it says on page 197, 'If a propert" tax is to form any ?art of the tax base for the region'- ':hat is for the region of St. John's- the rental value system presently ~sed by the city of St. John's should be eliminated and a capital market value system instituted.

The Commission cannot hel!? but note that of all the representations received supporting some form of property tax base~ - and this Commission heard re?resentations from all over the area, everY\Vhere­ 'not one singe representation supported the rental value system presently in operation in the city of St. John's.

Even more significantly, the city itself, in its •.vritten brief submitted to the Commission . recommended discontinuance of the rental value system in ~he following •,.;ords ,' and I ··rill not quote it all but towards the end it says, 'It'- :hat is the City Counci~-'reaffir:ns that decision and suggests that the Commission recommend that 7~Ja;~

Decemqer 15 , 1980 Tape No . 2958 so - 3 M.R. tl. MARSH..i\LL : the city be given forthwith au~~orization to introduce a property t~x based on the full market value of propert7' . And, Mr. Spea~er , in c::mfor.nity '"ith this and following these reconunendat:i ons , particularly the one in the Henley Conunission ~eport, t.'1is bill is no;v before ti1e Legislature. It ~rill, Mr . S;?eaker, result in, as I say , a fair and more equitable s ys~ em of ~axation in the city . As, I t .hink, t!'le ~lini s ter of Devel opir.ent (Mr. N. Windsor) and the Minister o:: ~<ianpower (Mr.

Dinn ) have indicated 1 wit:hin ~,e city of St. John's at present there is a zero vac ancy rate. You ca'1not get an apart ment in the city of St. John's and the rentals are acc elera t,ing and one of the reasons why these ren tal s are accelerating is that t!'l.e supply o:: apartment units just a.::e no1: the!:e , so the landlords then are able to • 7881

December 15, l980m Tape No. 2959 RA - 1 !'IIR. W. MARSHALL: charge a higher amount. Now, with this there is going to result,and there is already evidence that it is going to result because it has been indicated publicly by the City Council 1that the capital value system or the f~ir market Value system will be brought into the city and this has resulted in already more apartment buildings being started. So the net result, Mr. Sp~aker, is going to be in the long run a diminishment of the rentals charged within the city of St. John's.

As to the properties themselves, the property owners themselves,it is noted that the act gives the city of St. John's the right to set two rates of taxation, one for commercial and one for residential. And I have of the hope and expecta~ion that the city of St. John's will so set their rates that some of .the people who can p~rhaps least afford it who happen to be property owners will not be adversly affected. And I am quite sure that they will. But by and large,Mr.

Speaker, you can look at this bill, you can paint it in whichever way one wishes to, you can ascribe all sorts of motives to the introduction of it, but the long and the short of it is that study after study after study of~~ ~tionsystem of the city of St. John's over the past ten or fifteen years have all indicated that the present rental value System is inequitable and it is unfair, it is archaic,it is out of date, it results in less apartment buildings and less housing being available. And do not forget,Mr.

Speaker, it is not just the apartment buildings themselves but it is also aparL~ents, basement apartments, and there are many of them around this town and there are many people who have apartments in their houses who have to set their rents and when they set their rents they set it 786w

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2959 RA - 2 MR. '11. MARSHALL: on the basis of whatever it is , 25 or 30 per cent which has to go to the City Council which in effect gets a cut from the rent. And I have no doubt that over a period of time that this saving will in fact be passed on to the tenants. As far as the te~ants interests are concer~ed,the hon. gentleman there opposite could well take note that no greater friend of the tenants of the city of St.

John's or the tenants in the Province of Newfoundland has there ever been than this particular government,which nas passed the Residential Tenancy Act and keeps the rentals in this city monitored to the ex­ tent that it possibly can be. Now, there are cert~in things, Mr. Speaker, that I would like though to point out with re­ spect to the city.

This same Henley Cor~,ission Report when it went into the matter of changing and its main recommendat­ ion,as I say,it is quoted down here and underlined,by the way , on page 199,and I quote again ' The ~ental Value system of property taxation in the city should be replaced by a capital market value System'. But it did point out that in order for this to operate really effectively therehave to oe periodic assessments made from time to time by assessors within the city of St. John's.

Now, I know that there had been many cha~ges particularily within the past few years within the city,and the eity Council is no different than any other concern,be it the Provincial Government, the Federal Government, corporations, organizations, labour unions, you name it, that with the changes that have occured through the spectrum of our life particularily in the past few years, it is very difficult to adapt to the changes. But this is a change of taxation within the city of St. John's. One of the essential elements of it is that t~ere be ~aintained 7 ;'3 Ej ~

December 15, 1980 Tape :-lc . 2959 RA - 3 MR. 'II . :.1ARSF.ALL: at the city of St. John's a competent , a proper. ~sicnate J sy:npathetic group of assessors 1.,.ho are going to make periodic assessments-a::'ld it is neces sa ry to make periodic assessments . I do not know how ~iOP..ate cln assessor ca::'l be, !:;uc ,r mean, tllere certainly have to b~ pe~iodic asses sment s made and the =esponsibility lies with the cit:y of St . John's.

So in passing chis act: abe government: is pass~::'lg it in the expectation and in the confidence that the city ~ ill maintain, as I said,a compecent and a realistic assess­ ment s-taff ~o adrninist:er ' the act. Similarily , ~-1r . Speaker, as I might say when we are ., •,1 ~: ~ I ·.: '.,

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2960 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: talking about the city, I say this because sometimes they have not kept up-to-date, as I sa~ as I suppose a lot of people have not with changing times. Nmv the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (~ 4 r · Stirling) mentioned on certain aspects - I think of

section 101, he referred to. He referred to

section 101. Now, you know, you see the hen. Leader of the Opposition got up and made what I thought to be in some respects reasonable comments on Friday last, and h~~an nature is such when one hears the type of speech made by the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearyl, that, you know, yo .u sort of recoil against what 1 might have othenlise been a reasonable position because he tried to take what the hon. Leader of the Opposition gave us and tried to politicize it.

So, as I say, human nature as such, I suggest that in addition to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, whom I must really conqratulate for his being able to shackle and put the hen. member for LaPoile (!-1r. Neary) on a leash by putting him in the backbenches, that I think perhaps he will do well between now and the commencement of the next session of the House to have a talk 1vi th him and see if he can stop the type of attack and diatribe that the hon. member made when he spoke. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the hon. member for LaPoile.

MR. !1ARSHALL: But on 101(1), now I know the hon. members have to say that because they are in the s~~e party, but I know they agree with the gentlemen on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, with respect to that. We are at one with that and we know that they are doing, and eventually they will - M..."<.. FLIGHT: MR. MARSHALL : We said the same thing about Premie= Moores. - they will continue, you know, they will continue the chasm hopefully. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, that observation I must say, and there will be in committee, because this is the 1 .._:, :: r I J ' . .J I

December 15. 1980 Tape No. 2960 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: whole purpose of it. I mean the hon. member ~entioned that the way this

section reads, and I know we will get into it in committee, that, "For the purpose of enforcing the payment of t~xes, the City Clerk may issue warrants of distress and seize and sell any goods or chattels of the person by whom such amounts shall be due." Now when you get up to there there does not seem to be anything too much wrong ,with it. Somebody who is liable has to pay taxes. But I then ilt goes on to say, "or any tenant or lessee thereof." So, you know, we are thankful that this has. been brought to the attention - I think the hon. minister already had it on her list of amendments anyway.

But I mean that is not a - SOHE RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ~RSHALL: - the point is this, I expressed the government's appreciation to the Leader of the Opposition for bringing this to our attention and ~e certainly will take a look at it because it is not the intention of this government that somebody else's property can be taken to pay the debts of the principle debtor. So, as I say, we express our appreciation for that observation and we will certainly take it into account.

This is the whole purpose for the ••ay the House operates and this is the way the House should operate, that, you know, we appreciate constructive suggestions from the members on the opposite side of the House and we are quite prepared to accept their constructive suggestions from time to time and I wish to congratulate the Leader of the Opposition for bringing it to our attention and to thank him for his assistance in the formulation of this act. I cannot say the same thing,unfortunately - I would have said the same thing for the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), if he had expressed himself perhaps in a little bit different basis. ~low having said that, and having made that statement,let us not go so far as to make foolish statemencs about 7 8 B .q

~ecember 15, 1980 Ta pe No. 2960 NM - 3 ~1.~ . :-1.'1\.RSH.b,.LL : the fact t!'tat , "Oh , this bill \.;as drafted in has~e and it is a sloppily put together bill and it is a bill that - we do not bri ng bills before the House that have not been t-leighed and very carefully weighed in t!le balance by bo~h the Cabinet and tho caucus . This bill contains over 100 sections .

It is sixty printad nages long and, vou kno~, I mean this is the whole purpose - if it were not ~he pul·pose of bringing up bills like this for examination it \vould be just as well to put them through a computer and have them passed 1I suppose.that would be the - but this is a p~rt of the gove rnmen tal function . And as I say · .. re appre cia te \vba t the hon .

Leader of the Opposition - his assistance given to us, but at ~~e same time I would turn to the member for LaPoile and indicate , you know, do not jump up and do wn and start insultin; ?eople who have drafted the bill, competent people who know what they are doing . It is their profession and everybody ~akes a slip from time to time . I have no doubt that that 9articu1ar

section out i~ ~his bill lS a hanqover :rom the Nay in Nhich t!'!e la•t~s were in the 1920s and 1930s and vcu see many examples of it because they have been carried ove~ . Because, l ~j ::.i ·~

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2961 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as I say, this bill is purely and simply in its essence, in its pith and substance and in its principle, even though it contains one hundred an twenty pages, the only change in the tax­ ation structure of the city of St. John's, the main change in it is going to be the adoption of the capital value sys­ tem, replacement of the old inequitable rental value system, the bringing of fairness and equity in the taxation system to the city of St.

John's, as recommended not just by this government who brings it forth,but by the Wr.elan Cn"-":'_::;sion, by the Henley Commission, by City Councils, past and present, by people who made recommendations-and there were so many of them-to the Henley Commission - as I say, there was not one who did not agree with it- so it is universally accepted. We are bringing it i_n for tbat pur­ pose and I would hope that the debate, you know, on the bill would really be along those lines. I congratulate the minister for bringing it in in the fashion that she did.

It was unfortunate that we had to have a little bit of a ruffle before she was able to get ~n her feet,but when she got on her feet she introduced it in a very fine splendor and I would hope that when she closes the debate she can convince the hon.members opposite to vote for fairness and equity which is what this bill represents. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER(Baird): MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much, Mr.Speaker. I would like to have a few words to say about this particular bill that we are debating in the House right now. I realize, Mr.

Speaker, that I have not been in the House of Assembly for 78~n

December 15, 1980 Tape No. 2961 EL-2 ~1R. THOMS: as long as the Minister of Man- pm'ier (J. Dinn) ; however, I do not think I am mistaken \¥hen I believe that it is a responsibility of the Opposition to point cut flaws in any particular piece of legislation which is brought before the House.

The Minister got up and chided the Opposition for making comments and suggestions of changes to the legislation prior to it coming before the Committee of the Whole~ He also gave as his only arqument for the support of this legislation, that one simple, sacred gospel argument for supporting the bill was that this is what the city of St. John's wished. In other words, Mr. Speaker, what the minister is saying whatever the city of St. John's wishes, whatever the city of St. John's wants, then that is wh~t the city of St. John's gets. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, the citizens of St.

John's will have something to say about that \V'hen the present Premier of this Province has nerve en011gh to call an election. i..fR.. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: At least the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) has shown good taste - who he would have supported, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, o~e of the reasons, one of the reasons that the minister gave was that the prin­ ciple of the bill, the main, the major principle of the bill is a conversion of the present rental tax system in the city of St. John's to the capital system, the capital value system. I support that change in this act.

It does make the tax situation more equitable. I am afraid I cannot agree entirely with -or maybe not at all with :ny friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who says that the landlords in the city and these corporations doing business in this area are Mafia controlled. I know, I think I know most of the landlords in the city of St. John's and I certainly have no e"ide~ce that the Cosa Nostra or the Mafia controls the apart::[lent buildings in this city. 7 8 ~i .,

December 15, 1980 Tape No . 2961 EL - 3 MR. THOMS: But, however, Mr.Speaker, I would like some assurances, I would like some assura!lces- if this takes an amendment to the act, then so be it- I would like to see some assurances that the beneficiaries of this change to the capital value system do in fact get some benefi _ts from it, But I would suspect, Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition and the member for LaPoile (S.Neary) have said 1that with the passage of this act, the tenants 'in this city, their rentals 7 :j J ~·

December 15, 1980 Tape 2962 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: will not go down. Of that you can rest assured, the rentals will not go do·Nn. Now, they might not go up as fast as they normally would. Although the landlords of the city may not be controlled by the Mafia, none of them are that generous that they are going to give a rebate to the tenants and I just do not think that that is going to happen. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) points out that with the capital value system we are going to get a whole slew of new housing developed in St. John's for rent. Mr.

Speaker, that is pure speculation because although the vacancy rate is low at the present time- it is not zero, by the way, that is not correct. It is not zero, it is 1 per cent. That is closer to the truth. Except it sounds good for the government to say,'The vacancy rate is zero per cent, therefore ~1e haYe to do everything that we can to stimulate construction of apartment houses in the city.' But it is pure speculation whether or not the change from the rental value system to the capital value system is going to mean the construction of more apartment houses. Mr.

Speaker, let us not have the government trying to fool the people of the city of St.John's. There are very few members on the government side of this House -all of whom are Tory. I doubt very much whether my friend from St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) will campaign in the next election and have ~he nerve to tell the horne­ owners in his district that he voted for a piece of legislation that raised their taxes, not 50 per cent, it is going to raise it more like 75 per cent. The ordinary homeowner in the city of St.

John's now paying $400 a year annually is going to be hit between 1982 and 1987 with a tax bill cf $1,200 to $1,500. 78j~

December 15, 1980 AN BON • MEMBER: MR. THOMS : AN HON • ME!-ffiER : ~m. TH OMS: Ta?e 2962 (Inaud ible ). w'"hat is that? (Inaudib le) . EC - 2 I do not know, but this is what - I mean, the homeowner in St. John's,who pays about $400 a year now, that same homeowner in Halifax or some other large city would pay somewhere between Sl ,200 and ·$1, 500. But as I .said before, I think this is a more equitable system and that part of it I can support. Mr. Speaker, these are ·basic - not the real reasons why I wanted to speak in this debate. There was a time when it was said -that a man's home is his castle.

It was a sacrad right to have a roof over his head. It is not good enough to argue that because a mortgage company hq.s a right to sell a person's nome for non-payment of mortgage payments, it is not enough to say that a financial institution has a right to sell a person's home for non-payment of a debt. It is not enough to say th .at. I do not believe that any govern.'l!ent, whether it is municipal , provincial, should have the right to sell a person's horne for non-payment of property taxes . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TH OMS: ~here a= e plen ty of rem edi es available to the City of St.

John's atth~ present time. And under this new act. .there are plenty of remedies available. But I believe, as does my friend from LaPoile (~tr. Neary) that no government - I 7 8 ~~ ~

December 15,1980 Tape No. 2963 AH-1 MR. THm1s: realize that .:_ t is the last reso):"t that the City of St. John's is going to sell 2 person's horne because of non-payment of taxes. I know it is the last resort but it is also the last resort of a mortgage company or it is also the last resort of some financial collection agency; it is the last resort. But in this case they · should not have 1:hat last resort. The city is going to get their money, Mr.Speaker. Ask any lawyer in St. John's. The best collection agency that the City of St. John's has is the Law Society of this town.

Every time we act on the sale of a house we have to make sure that all taxes are paid and we collect the taxes for the City of St. John's and \ve turn them over to the City of St. John's. We do not get any thirty per cent for collecting them. They probably should pay us for collecting them but we do not. But it should be a basic principle, Mr. Speaker, of any government , a basic principle, that they will not take a person's horne and sell that horne and put the family on welfare or put them on the street, they should not have that right because you find that sometimes there will be very little sympathy.

The President of the Council spoke of the compassion of accessors,but sometimes government officials have very little compassion, very little compassion, any ~ore, Mr. Speaker, any more than the authorities should have the right to turn of a persons water supply or heat. There are to many hardships involved in these things. And in any event, Mr. Speaker, it is used so rarely that there is no real benefit from having it here. You can lien a person's property, you can sue him, you can obtain judgement, you can attach his wages, so there are any number of remedies that are presently available.

I am happy to see that - I understand from the ~~inister of ~1 u:1icipal Affairs (11rs Ne"1hook) that there will be an ame:1dment to 7~ss:;

December 15,1980 Tape :-.Jo . 2963 AH-2 Y'.R • TP.OMS :

Section 101 because that particular

section was - the way it reads it creates a debt on a ~arson •.rho normally would not ha•1e a debt . It automatically creates a debt . If there are taxes owing 'o: Sl,OOO then what ~~is particular

section did was ::~ake a person t"!".o did not contract a debt pay the debt . 3ut ! understand from the minister, ar.d it is con:i~ .ed by the President of the Council , this particular

section ·,1ill be amended. ).!r, Speaker, there is another

section in the Act which :;: \voald 1 ike the min:..ster to give some thought to and as so frequently happens a person's property is assessed or invalidly assessed or incorrectly assessed and the owner of that property has to pay to the city thE'! taxes based on t..'le assessment but then subsequently that tbat assessment is appealed,either through the Court of Revision or through ~e - I believe under the Act there is an appeal to the District Court and i: t~e ~ct provides chen that the ~oney so paid in •.vill be repaid out o: the general revenues of the city . aut in che ~eantL~e, ~r .S?eake r. the city has ~'1e 7 El ~; 11

December 15, 1980 Ta~e No. 2964 ow - 1 :-1"-. L. THo;vrs: use of that ~erson's money. The person is losing interest on the money that he has wrongfullv had to pay to the city and the city has use of his money. Mr. Speaker, I would like the minister to look at that and maybe agree to having the city ~ay an interest on money that has been so collected. That way that could be a check to make sure that you do not have incorrect and invalid assessments on prooerty. They may not be so anxious to do an incorrect assessment on the ?roperty if the city had to pay an interest on the taxes so ?aid. And, Mr.

Speaker, if you look at it from a collective point of view,I mean at any given time you could have any numbers of thousands of dollars collected by the city, used by the city wrongly without having to pay for that money. And in the meantime, of course, it is costing the taxpayer 16 or 17 per cent on that money. But, Mr.

Speaker, the real ?Urpose of why I wanted to speak in the debate is to ask the government,for the minister to discuss it with her Cabinet and to see if we cannot take this alternate remedy away from city councils, community councils, who­ ever has it right across this Island, because, as I have said, no man or woman should lose the roof o7er their head because for some reason or other thev cannot afford to pay the property tax assessed. : thi~k that is a reform. A man's home should be his castle, a rna~ should be able to retain it. I do not like the present attitude of the city of St. John's along those lines.

S0ME HON.~E~BERS: Oh, oh! MS. VERGE: Only half his castle. 78S7

December 15, 1980 MR. L. THOMS: Do not you worry . M._q . S • NEARY: :<1R . L . THOMS : !• Tape Nc . 2964 DW - 2 It is Only half his castle. That is the man -hater talking now . The ~~niste~ of Educati on (l'l.s . Verge) is a la•,ryer. You sh<l>ulc try going do1·m to Family Court . I was down in ?~~il y Court last week and the!"e are about t\-.renty lawvers in Fa.rnily Couxt al~ getting fat on the minister's Matrincnial Act . SOME HbN.MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR . TOLE: : A haven for la• . .;yers . ~..R . L. THOMS: .ll.. haven~ They have !'lever ha::l it so good .

They have never had it so good! ~ - Speake!", I do not think there has been too many from Grand Bank \vho had much to do with the Matrimonial Act up to the present time. But in St. John's,the lawyers axe having a :ield day and it ;.;ill be a lonq time before the courts h.av e come down wi~~ too many definitive decisions so t~at you can advise a client without having first aoin~ ch=ouah the legal ?tocedure . But, "1r . Soeaker, as I have said before no family should lose their home because of 9ro9erty taxes .

The city has 9lenty of remedies - the To1m of Grand Bank has plenty of remedies, the City o: Corner Brook has plenty of remedies . There is no neec and it is unfair , it is discompassioniate to gi ve this authority to municipal gove rnments. And I r18 P

December 15, 1980 Tape No . 2965 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: would like to see the minister discuss it with her caucus, discuss it with her Cabinet and see if, maybe not at this time, but at some future date we could give some serious consideration to taking this reoedy away from the govern­ ment. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~ear, hear! MR. SPEAI<ER{.Butt): If the hon. the minister speaks now, she closes the debate on the bill. MR. WARREN: MR . SPEAKER : Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Torngat Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would gladly grant leave if some member from the twelve St. John's seats wants to speak. Well, Mr.Speaker, every time this government like to perform an action, a deed that is either bit controversial at all, they come up with the idea of bringing in a bill like this at the same appro~ ~ ·,~e time that they are planning to recess. So I find, as a represent­ ative of this hon. Hou~e, I do not take it lightly the House closing by ramming bills of such a nature as this down in the people's throats. Mr.

Speaker, I was driving in the other morning and I was listening to the news on,I think it was radio station VOCH. ::: think they were inter- viewing the Mayor o~ St. John's ~t the time,and the mayor was 'saying to the effect we are a little bit concerned that the CTC1Ver.n.l'1ent has not brought in this act respecting th .e assess­ ment of real property and the imposition and collection of certain taxes in L~ city of St. John's. Now, she said she ., •J -.- I ':.Z ~,

December 15, 1980 ·rape No . 2965 Et. - 2 ~1R . r.VAR.REN : was concerned because they were ge.tting prepared to do up tb;:ir budget for the New Year and they cannot do their budget because this act has not been proclaimed by the government . So 1-1hat the mayor of St . John 's is sayi ng is that , Look, we are in Limbo unless this act is proclauned and it has to be proclaimeq before the end of this calendar year . Now, Mr. Speaker, i £ this gov ern­ ment is taking their directions from the mayor and councillors of a partic~lar city, who are ou~ taking their cues probab l y from the oeople •. .,ho elected them , I wane to have no

part in voti ng for a bill of such mangitude as this . Mr . Speaker, this House has twelve Progressive Conservative member s representing the city of St . John's , eleven or twelve . Now, surely goodne .ss they are noc going to vote to see two cents a gallon added to the fue l tax, to see the t axes in St . John ' s rising and continuing to rise probabl y as high as any other city in the Dominion if we just pass this act, because then you are not tyifl9 any restrictions to the city at all because next year and t~e ne xt yaar after they will just continue to increase it .

And I thin k to see this gov ernment taking tP~s act, here it is on the fifteenth day of Decembe r and all fellows on both sides of the House are as an:<ious to get cut,. everyone is anxious to get out,but the government deciC.es well, lock, now here is a great chance to get this act through. The Liberals are net going to speak too much a·gainst it becau se it i s get­ ting too close to Christma s - nR . NEARY: to Santa Claus . MR . WARREN : They are paying too much attention Right and :neam,•hi le - and also the ?u i'i n

D'ecember 15, 1980 Tape No. 2965 EL - 3 YlR . oVA RREN: thing that was pointed to the twelve memebers for St. John 1 s, the thing that was pointed to the twleve members from St. John's-and one member spoke so far, the han. Minister of the Privy Council(W.Marshall), and said look, do not anyone here speak against it and after a while the Liberals will all get unwound and it will be all over with. Mr. Speaker,' I will tell you this much - AN HON. MEMBER: Unraveled. MR. WARREN: Unraveled? Unwound is just as good to me. You are unraveled all the time, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Speaker, I will tell you this much that we in this House probably are looking for.»ard to Christmas with our families,but the families in St. John's are looking more forward to the defeat of this bill in this House, that is what the people in St. John's are looking for- ward to. The 17,000 people are seeing that this bill is de­ feated because all it is is that the city of St. John 1 s is expecting this government to pass this bill with very little opposition. l'J.r. Speaker, this bill~. "'\ -. •I "i'.J·

December 15, 1980 Ta;;:>e 2966 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: Just imagine how much a year it is costing one taxpayer by paying a measly two cents a gallon on fuel oil- especially living in one of the older homes in this city - ho~v much it will be costing those people by paying two cents a gallon extra where there is very little insulation in the homes, the windows are draughty and everything else~ So I think this government should take it into very serious consideration. Now, are you going to protect the consumer or are you going to protect the multi-nationals?

The people of the city ~oday are probably thinking about Christmas and they are not thinking about being old Scrooges. They are not thinking, 'How much more can this government suck out of us?' AN HON. MEMBER: It made the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) the tax biter. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I know it must be very, very embarrassing for the hon. the Minister of ~1unicipal Affairs to come in and make such comments as, 'Well, this bill is not very important for you people, you represent districts outside of St.

John's.' One hon. minister said to me, 'You fellows will not have anything to say about this bill.' No, the hon. lady did not, but some other minister said, 'This bill will not mean that much to you fellows, you represent districts outside of St. John's.• Now, l'Ir. Speaker, we do consider this bill important, and the taxpayers of St. John's consider it important. And I '.Vould venture to say that once the word gets out that the present slate of councillors and the Mayor in St.

John's are trying to get this government to pass this legislation, I would venture to say that when a municipal election is called next November, very few of them will be returned. 7 ,-, t' '"; .j ;..1

December 15, l980 Tape 2966 EC - 2 MR. l'i'ARREN: What I find so astonishing - the hon. the member for Carbcnear (Mr.- Moores) brought it up - is that we are not going to impose it before 1982. MR. FLIGHT: After the election. MR. WARREN: Yes. The municipal election is in November, 1981 - MR. FLIGHT: It takes five years to phase it in. MR. WARREN: Right 1• And then impose it on Jan~ary l, 1982, you know, just a month afterwards. So do not worry, the taxpayers of St.

John's, those who are paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month to the multi­ millionaires of the city, those are the people who will tell the councillors and Mayor Wyatt and Deputy Mayor O'Neill, 'Look, boys, you fellows before last Christmas brought in

an act that really affected us.' So in November - I think it is the second Monday in November the election is called - they are going to tell those councillors, 'Okay, boys, this is your due, just reward for what you tried to do with us.' And I would say they will turf out eight or ten, or seven or eight of those councillors. And then when the Premier has the intestinal fortitude to call a general election, then the people of St. John's will also give eight or ten, or seven or eight of Tory St. John's - AN HON. MEMBER: Ten. HR.

WARREN: Ten? - will give ten of them a lesson by saying, 'Look, you supported the city council in bringing in this bill and therefore, we will have to give you fellows your just reward too.' You know, the people of this Province, the people of St. John's and so on are not going to take anything else for granted. 7SJ .~

December 15, 1980 Tape 2967 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: You know, they are beginning to be better education and they are beginning to understand how this government is trying to ram everything down people's throats. Mr. Speaker, there is something else that is going on in this city. It may not be exactly tied in with this bill. I heard on the radio the other morning that those people who are living in downtown St. John's, who own their own homes or are living in apartments down there and so on, that the city council is also going to compel them to pay $60 a year to park their own vehicles in front of their own homes. Mr.

Speaker, I do not have to pay $60 a year to park my vehicle in front of my own horne, I am sure the Premier does not and I am sure the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) does not. But those people dQwntown will have to pay $60 a year to park their vehicles in front of their own homes. So we can see, Mr. Speaker, that council and government alike, are trying to just run over the people - to heck with the ordinary human being who is trying to live day by day. Mr. Speaker, I want to object to this bill because it is bringing in an unfair tax burden, especially to the lower income people of the city.

It is fine for some of us to say, 'Well, what in the heck is two cents per gallon on fuel oil?' You know, most municipalities throughout this Province now are charging a cent and a half, a cent and three-quarters or two cents on a gallon of fuel oil, but all of a sudden, bang, it is going to be struck on the people of St. John's. So, Mr. Speaker, I believe that this government should seriously do what the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) did not really do - read the bill, really read the bill and 79Jh

December 15, 1980 Ta pe 2967 EC - 2 MR . NARRE N : study it, because I ~l sure that in all honesty and in all fairness to the minister, she did not do her homework on this bill. And I would venture to say, Mr. Speaker, that if the Hadarn Minister had her time back again she would have persuaded the Cabinet, persuaded this government to say, 'Look, hold this bill off until we make corrections, until we can consolidate what is ~n this bill and make it satisfactory to the people of St. John's.' And now, the minister, I am sure, is going through a hard time in trying to convince her own conscience. AN HON .

HEil'lBE R: They have made her the tax collector. MR . WARREN : So actuall-y \vhat has happened is that the minister now is a tax collector for the City of St. John's and I am sure she does not want to be put in that limelight. AN HON. MEMBER: A nice lady made a tax collector. MR . I~A RR E N : Mr. Speaker, this bill is too serious to be passed at such anopportune 7 •j D c;

December 15, 1980 Tape 2968 MB - l MR. G. WARREN: time for this government. This bill, I would strongly suggest, should be left over until a new sitting in the New Year when we can debate it at much greater length and some corrections can be made. I think the President of the Privy Council already said that there was going to be a clause removed or amended. That is only just one clause and that came today from the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who spoke and spoke loud and clear to the minister. MR. MARSHALL: What happened to your other leader? MR. G. WARREN: Our other leader.

Oh, so you are finally taking some suggestions from over here. That is more than we can say for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). So, Mr. Speaker, it is good that at least some hon. members from Cabinet are realizing­ If the Premier has something to say he can say it loud. Al\1 HON. MEMBER: He is afraid. MR. G. WARREN: He is afraid,is he? Mr. Speaker, I am glad to notice that at least one member from Cabinet, the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) has taken some advice from this side on this bill.

And the hon. member from LaPoile has also given some advice and I will give you some other adv.ice, drop this bill now. The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs (:,irs. Newhook) should get up and say, 1Mr. Speaker, I wish to drop this bill until a new sitting in the New Year when I will have a chance to read it, when the Cabinet will have a chance to read it and we will know then for sure that it is not being rammed down the throats of the people in St. John's.' Mr. Speaker, I think I have made my two or three points and taking that in line I am going to vote against this bill,be