VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 22, 1980 NO. 26

April 22, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 917 EL - l Order, please. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUlture. MR. R. DAWE: I rise at this time with some regret to inform this hen. House of an impasse which has been reached between my department and my counterpart in the Government of Quebec, with respect to the management of the caribou populations which occupy a range between the province of Quebec and the Labrador portion of this province.

From the early days of Confederation, both provincial governments realized the mutual interest that was held in the caribou populations in the North. There were sporadic joint efforts over the years towards research into the populations concerned and in general, good co-operation was experienced between the two governments. In the early 1970s this informal arrangement was established on a more structured basis with the establishment of a Quebec - Labrador Caribou Management Committee, which included senior official representation from the Wildlife division of Quebec and this Province.

The objectives of the committee were to coordinate research on the caribou populations and to identify a mutually acceptable management policy 1 including the annual harvest or quota. In recent years, staff of my department have expressed increasing frustrations in trying to operate through this management committee. I refer, in particular, to the experiences with the Lac Joseph and George River caribou herds. The Lac Joseph herd~ In the early 1970s, this herd numbered approximately 5000 to 6000 animals. Today the latest population count shows approximately 250 animals remaining.

This severe reduction came as a result of over-harvesting of the herd by residents of Quebec. 2426

,._. ~ pr il 22 , 19.80 Tape No. 917 E:L - 2 MR. R. DAWE: During th.e period concerned, the Newfoundland and Labrador wildlife division placed severe quotas on the residents of this p:r::ovinc:e, with only a token hunt taking place for male caribou only. Indeed, in 1977 the seasons were clo$e:d entirely in Labrador en this herd. During this perlod 1 when surveys were all indicating a severe decrease in the population, Quebec residents continued to be pez;mitted to hunt despite repeated requests from this p:r::ovince tlirough the management committee fer a reduction in the harvest by Quebec.

As a result , today there are less than 250 a.nblals remaininq in this llerd. The season is closed entirely on the Newfoundland and Labrador side, but the residents of Quebec are still permitted to harvest this depletinq resource. The George River Caribou herd: At this time it is the largest remaining free-ranging caribou herd in the world which occupies a range from the Labrador coast west almost to Hudson Bay.

There are an estimated 150,000 to :too,ooo animals in this herd which spends approximately one half of the year 1 from early March to late Fall,in Labrador 1 including the critic:al Spring calving period. 2427

April 22, 1980 Ta p e No. 918 DW - 1 :-IR. R. DAWE: My department have used this herd as a tremendous natural resource for the Province and the people of Labrador in particular. We fully accept and recognize the awesome responsibility incumbent on our de­ partment to ensure the management of this resource so as to provide for the maximum benefit to the people of the Province, while at the same time ensuring its continuation in perpe­ tuity.

It is in trying to meet this objective that my depart - ment has experienced continuous frustrations and disappoint­ ments in dealing with our neighbouring province to.the West. At present the harvest taken from this herd is approximately 8,000 animals annually, 2.400 in Labrador and 5,600 in Quebec. Quebec in recent months has taken a unilateral decision to allow virtually unlimited harvest of this herd.

My department have viewed this move by the Province of Quebec as completely unaccept­ able in that the best information available to the wild­ life division indicates that this herd may possibly be declining at this time and may not be able to sustain increased mortality. It is true this position is based on limited data 1 but at the same time it is based on as much if not more information than the wildlife officials in Quebec have at their disposal.

To effectively manage a wildlife population requires good basic data on population size and productivity, mortality factors including predation and hunting and the condition of the range. Within the limits of the funds available in this Province for wildlife manage- ment, we have carried out periodic population checks. Through the co-operation of DREE under the Labrador Interim Subsidy Agreement,a three phase project is presently underway to, number one; assess the physiological and pathological status of the herd, determine the impace of wolf predation and to 2428

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 918 DW - 2 MR. R. DAWE: ·---- ---- explore the potential for increased economic return from this resource through commer­ cial harvest or sport hunt for the SO per cent of the harvestable yield to which this Province is entitled. With the results of this study,more informed decisions can be made on the manage- ment of this herd. Despite the fact that over the past several years Quebec has been enjoying the major benefits from this herd, this Province has invested three times as much funding in research and management than has Quebec.

As indicated,this Province has as good or better data than that in the possession of the Province of Quebec to judge the state of the present herd 1 and our biologists have expressed some serious concerns that the population levels may well have peaked. At the same that my officials were expressing this concern to me, I have become aware of a public statement by the Quebec minister responsible for wildlife that the herd may well have a population of as many as 500,000 animals and that there is concern that th~ animals may be over-usina existing range.

This argu- ment has been used by the minister as a basis for the implementation of a virtually unlimited quota. As I have outlined earlier, my department does not aaree with the Quebec position. ~y deputy minister on December lOth., 1979 telexed the Quebec deputy minister responsible for wildlife expressing his concern. 2429

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 919 NM - 1 MR. R. DAWE: This was followed by a letter of December 27th., outlining in some detail our concerns and requesting a meeting. A follow-up telex was sent on March 3rd., 1980 0 No response whatsoever has been received to these initiatives. What is now required for the management and wise use of this valuable resource is a formal agreement between the governments of the two provinces. We are aware of a similar agreement which has been signed between the Government of Alaska and the Yukon Territory respecting the Eorcupine caribou herd which occupies range in both areas.

I would add that the experience of Alaska and the Territories in management of a large caribou herd is one of the main reasons for the concern of my department for the George River herd. Mainly because of over harvesting through hunting and predation,Alaska's major herds drastically declined during the 1970s. For example, the largest herd, the Western Arctic herd decreased from 242,000 animals to 60,000 animals, and the Nelchina Herd went from 70,000 to less than 9,000.

Because of these distinct reductions, there was a major public outcry in Alaska and throughout the United States for better wildlife management practices. MR. STAGG: Bring on the Greenpeacers. MR. R. DAWE: Given the benefit of this experience, it is incredible that an agreement to provide for the management of a caribou herd range between two nations can be worked out,while two provinces have been unable to reach the same objective.

This government does not want to see the George River herd suffer the same fate as the Lac Joseph herd where a free-ranging caribou population has almost been completely annihilated through total irresponsibility on the part of the Quebec Government. We have been at a loss to understand the position which the Quebec Government has taken in this matter. In the absence of any response at the official level,we were left to speculate on the reasoning involved. For example, could it be that the 2430

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 919 NM - 2 MR. R. DAWE: Quebec Government feels that a formal recognition of the rights of both provinces in making decisions concerning the management of this resource would be giving recognition to the Quebec-Labrador boundary which they have repeatedly chosen to ignore? Could it be that the Quebec Government wishes to carry out massive hydro development projects in the Ungava region and one of the main obstacles to such activity is the presence of this large caribou herd? On March 28th., 1980 I forwarded a telex to the hon.

Lucien Lessard, Minister of Leisure, Fish and Game, expressing my concern and requesting a meeting as soon as possible. I recently met in Ottawa with the Federal Minister of the Environment responsible for wildlife, the hen. John Roberts, and conveyed to him our concern with respect to the attitude Quebec has adopted in this matter. I requested his co-operation in attempting to have the Quebec Government enter into meaningful discussions toward the resolution of this problem in a formal agreement between our two governments.

On April 16th., 1980 a response to my telex was received,indicating that officials of the Quebec department would be contacting officials of my department to discuss the problems. The problems have already been identified and are well known to both governments. I see no need for further discussion of the problems, but rather a commitment by the Quebec Government to take positive action in formulating a policy consistent with the best scientific data available. I have again contacted the Quebec minister seeking an immediate meeting to impress on him the urgency of this matter.

I wish to again emphasize that there should be no question whatsoever with respect to 2431

April 22,1980 Tape No. 920 AH-1 MR. DAWE: the commitment of this government to ensure that the valuable wildlife resources of Labrador that share their range with the province of Quebec will be managed in a proper and effective manner with the residents of this Province receiving a fair share of the benefits. I will be continuing my efforts to reach an agreement with the government of Quebec and will keep this han. House advised in this regard. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Isle. MR. ROBERTS: get equal time? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! The han. member for the Strait of Belle Mr.

Speaker, do I begin by asking if I Half time. Half time. Well 1 I think what I need to say and what needs to be said can be said probably in less than half time. The minister's statement~ Sir, requires no detailed comment from us and there is none of us in a position to speak with authority on these points anymore than,I venture to say, and this is not a criticism, the minister is not able to speak with authority. I have no doubt this was drafted by his officials and he has relied upon them. And that is okay, we have no quarrel with that.

The government have laid out another sad tale of woe in their dealings with another province and I do not think, based on what we know, which is essentially what the minister has told us, we do not know a great deal more about the Lac Joseph caribou herd or the George River caribou herd. They are not matters of common knowledge to most of us in this House,I venture to say. MR. NEARY: separatist or what? MR. ROBERTS: And what about moose herds? Are they all Well,the moose are another problem.

The minister did not talk about the moose and I gather there are some problems with moose as well or with•meese'being the plural of moose. ::.ffi. NEARY: What about the rabbits? MR. ROBERTS: I do not know '"'here we go on rabbits 1 but I would say to my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when I am looking for 2432

April 22,1980 Tape ~o. 920 A.'i-2 t·!R. ~OBERTS: elephants ..,e should not get into rab .bits. Sut 1 do want to say that we on this side are prepared ,as my friend the Leacer of the Opposition has said on occasion,to be supportive of the government in moves that •o~e judge to be in the public i::lte.rest and we thi.n.k that this !!lOve, on the face of it and based on what •o~e k.."low about it 1 is in the public interest .

Obvio usly the government have a duty to protect our wildli£e resources and obviously they must take the steps that are appropriate and,given the history outlined by the minister,we have no quarrel with what he said in this . I do want to go on though, ~tr. Speaker, and say that we on this side are coming increasingly to •..-ond~ about th e overall context of these statements. First of all, the minister pointed out that it is difficult to make an agreement between two provinces, in fact the government up until now has been unable to make an agreement between e<..-o provinces.

He pointed out t.~at a similar agreement has been made be~o~eeo two ~4tions, between the government of the United States or the gover::1rnent of Alaska,which is a state of the United States,and the Yukon Territories 1 whic h is a federal territory within the country known as canada . I simply say to the minister that I would sugg est to him and 2433

April 22, 1980 Tape 921 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: to his colleagues that they ought to consider-and possibly they have - they ought to consider the impact of these statements in a far broader context and that is the events which are happening in the Province of Quebec and which will culminate, to an extent, in the referendum question to be put to the people of that province on the 20th day of Miay. And that, Sir, is- souathing that ought particularly to concern the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, out it is something, Sir, that ought to concern each of us as a Canadian.

And I am becoming increasingly apprehensive about the effect of this kind of statement. I do not suggest for a moment it was made with this thought in mind, but I would suggest to the minister that possibly he and his colleagues ought to take some heed. We do not exist in isolation in this Province.

If QueDec is oeing, to say it mildly, unreasonable, as they appear to have oeen here, and as they Certainly have been with respect to the proposals to develop the power, the hydro resources of the Labrador part of this Province, then I think we should consider carefully, as canadians and as Newfoundlanders - and we are both. At times, Sir, we tend to forget that, I think, but we are both, we are Newfoundlanders and we are Canadians, and they are not divergent interests. AN HON. MEMBER: On this side, I guess. MR. E.

ROBERTS: On this side they are not divergent, on this side they are the same, and we can oe good Newfoundlanders and good Canadians and so, too, can the government. The statement itself is not worthy of ten minutes of the House's time, I suggest to the minister. The matter could have been dealt with much more expeditiously. MR. F, STAGG: (Inaudible). MR. E. ROBERTS: I am sorry, My friend from Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) is interrupting again. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. E. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, my friend from Stephenville and I have had a number of exchanges and he is interrupting again, Sir.

If he is not aware of the rule that he ought to be silent while another member 2434

April 22, 1980 Tape 921 EC- 2 MR. E. ROBERTS : is speaking 1 then I would simply say I would have to ask Your Honour again to remind the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) of the rules of this House. I would have thought he would have been here long enough to know the rules. I have done nothing to provoke him. I may have annoyed him, and I make no apology for that, Sir. In fact 1 that may almost be a plus. MR. s. NEARY: He is a bad influence over there. MR. E • ROBERTS : I would ask the gentleman from Stephenville to extend to me and to other members the courtesy which he has claimed for himself on occasion.

MR. S. NEARY : Hear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS : If he does not agree with what I am saying, let him in due course respond in the appropriate way. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS : What I have said is that while the statement is important, it is not worthy of taking this much tinE of the House and I would sugqest - MR. J. CARTER: MR. E. ROBERTS : is again interrupting. MR. Sl'EAKER (Simms) : (Inaudible) • The gentleman from st. John's North (Mr. Carter) Order, please! Hon. members should be aware that if the han. member requests to be heard in silence, then that request should be adhered to.

The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, if I may now proceed without interruption. The trouble with interruptions,you know,is they lead to the tit for tat theory and the tits on the other side draw tats from this side. And that, Mr. Speaker, does not help anybody, including the business of the House. As I have said, we are perfectly supportive of the minister's position on this matter. He appears to have taken the steps that a reasonable man ought to have taken to protect the interests of this Province and we will stand with him on it. We will await further word 2435

April 22, 1'380 Tape '321 EC- 3 MR. E , liOSERTS : from him as deve1opOtents occur, but at the same time I want to \Ulderline that we must not talte these s.tatements in isolation, we iuust take them all in context, and the context these days certainly does include wbat is qoinq on in the neighbourinq province and wherever that may lead us. 'l'bank you. 2436

April 22, 1980 Tape No.922 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, during 1977 the han. House gave approval to a new Labour Standards Act and in so doing it consolidated all the existing legislation on annual vacations, the employment of children, ~inimum wages, termination of employment, weekly day of rest, hours of work and workers' wages as well as including extensive changes to develop new enforcement procedures.

Because the new Labour Standards Act was developed in consultation with employers and unions, I find that the legislation has proved acceptable to those parties and is having an appreciable effect on work standards,particularly in those sectors outside the normal scope of collective bargaining.

The new standards in our legislation are comparable to those existing in other jurisdictions and in general terms establish acceptable levels for employees in the work force in such matters as vacation with pay, paid public holidays, rest periods for employees during the work week and work day, minimum wage rates for employees,particularly in operations outside collective bargaining. the regulation with respect to termination of employment, th~ protection of employees' wages in cases of bankruptc~, restrictions on the employment of children before a certain age and under certain conditions, provisions with respect to maternity leave and on hours of work.

Our experience with the new Labour Standards Act has been quite satisfactory. It has brought new standards of employment to at least 30,000 workers not covered by collective agreements or collective bargaining through the intervention of the new Labour Standards Act.rhe number of complaints ordinarily referred to the courts have been reduced as a tribunal is now ~ermitting a more positive mechanism in adjudicating employee/employer differences. The tribunal is comprised of Mr. William Finn, Chairman, 2437

April 22, 198 0 Ta pe No. 922 SD- 2 MR. . J. DlNN: of Carbonear, Mr. Fred Bowdring ElnJ?loyee :aepresentati ve . and Mr. Christopher Rusted, Elnployer Representative, both of St. John's. ~e new Labour Standards Board 1 whiCh replaced the Minimtll!l Wage Board, is expected to become more involved in labour standards matters qenerally 1 as well as with minimum wages in particular. It is also exPected to investiqate and do research into matters coming under the scope of the Labour Standards Act 1particularly as it may pertain to emploYment patterns of empl,oye!!S at or near the minimum wage level. 2438

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 923 EL - 1 MR . J. DINN: The present Labour Standards Board is comprised of Mr. Donald Dooley, Chairman, Mr. Harold Duffett, Employer Representative and Mr. Frank Taylor, Employee Representative. During 1979, the Labour Standards Board was asked to review the minimum wages and conduct hearings among employers, unions and interested groups throughout the Province. The Board has since submitted its report to government.

The government have examined the recommendations of the Board and have given approval to all the main recommendations of the Board and these are summarized as follows: One: The minimum wage to be increased from $2.80 an hour to $3.45 an hour· in the following increments: $3.15 per hour to be effective 1 July, 1980, and $3.45 per hour to be effective the 31st of March, 1981.

Two: The overtime rate to be not less than $4.73 an hour, which is time and a half minimum wage,to be effective 1 July, l980 1and the overtime rate to be not less than $5.18 an hour, time and a half the minimum rate,to be effective the 31st March 11981. The third recomm- - .. -- - ··- - endation was the deductions from the prescribed minimum wages where meals, board and lodging are provided are to be revisee as follows: For single meals to be increased to $1.00 from ninety cents; for board and lodging, $25.00 a week from $21.00.

For board only, $16.00 a week from $14.50 and for lodging only $7.50 per week from $6.50. Recommendation fer the minimum wage for domestics in private homes to be increased to 50 per cent of the legislative hourly ~inimum wage for each hour of work, from the present $40.00 per week and that all provisions of sub-section 2 of

Section 9 of 1979 Regulations with respect to restrictions on reductions in this scale remain unchanged. Because a large segment of the work force is outside collective bargaining and their standards of employment and wages are regulated by our Labour Standards Act, government have de­ cided that a survey be undertaken as soon as possible to obtain info~tion 2439

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 923 EL - 2 MR. J. OINN: on the number of persons employed for wages at or near the legislatiVe min.illlwn wage, thei,r age groups, their type of employllleDt and loc:ation in the Province. It is also hoped that the survey can deal with questions with respect to unemployed youth and students. An assessment of the information obtained fro~~~ the survey should assist r:fovernment in determining what c:hanges, if any , should be made for the minimum wages within the bz:oad c:ontext of the Labour Standards generally. '!'hank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: f!ear, hear. 2440

April 22, 1980 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) )1R. T. LUSH: Tape No. 924 DW - 1 The hen. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to get up in this House and publicly support a minimum wage of $3.45 an hour when one considers the tremedous escalation in the cost of living. And that.is not to say that we do not commend the government for having raised the waae from $2.80 to $3.45 an hour but, as I have said beforerwhen one considers the escalation in the cost of living in this Province and to expect that people would have to live on a wage of this level is rather ridiculous.

Of course, the saving grace about a minimum wage is that it is a guideline, and thank heavens that most employers throughout the Province do not pay the minimum wage, most employers pay in excess of the minimum wage and of course that is the saving grace about the minimum wage. But it is an achievement and it is going to be a help to many people in this Province to know that they cannot be employed for less than the minimum as it goes into effect on July lst, $3.15 an hour 1 and to be escalated on the 31st. of March to $3.45 an hour.

Another point about it,and another bad point about this is the fact that it is going to be 1982 before the minimum wage earners of this Province can experience a further increase,going by the recommendations and what the minister has introduced here today, because as of July lst., $3.15 1 then of March 31st. it becomes 1980, this year, it becomes $3.45. So if we look at the way that the minimum wages have been increased in the past,it is certainly going to be 1982 before there is another increase.

I know that could be chanqed,and certainly as a result of the study that the minister has initiated that depending on the information that is brought back there could be a change in that before 1982. And I hope that it is 2441

April 22. 1980 Tape so . 924 ow - 2 MR. T. LOSR: because wi~h the continual escalation in the cost of living that certainly to expect people to work for $3.45 an hour is a bLt much to say the least. So that is my only concern.

I only wish that the $3.45 could have been introduced immediately,and I am sure that the members of the Labour Standards Board could probably have wished that and that is another reason why one has certainly to go along with the recommendat ions insomuch as that the committee or the Board comprised the business and the labour ~art of the public community and conducted hea rings and they came back with these recommendations . But I certainly hope that the mechanism that th e minister ba s set in motion to re~iew 244 2

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 925 so - 1 MR. T. LUSH: aspects of the employment field and to ascertain various que·stions as it relates to minimum wage earners, I would certainly hope that the minimum wage earners of this Province do not have to wait until 1982 before they see another increase in the minimum wage. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of both the Pr~mier and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L.

Barry) 1 both of whom, I understand, are away from the Province, perhaps I could ask the Government House Leader (Mr. w. Marshall), who I assume is also the Acting Premier during the Premier's absence from Newfoundland, could he indicate to us where the government stands with respect to the matter of moving energy across the Province of Quebec in light of the statements made yesterday in Ottawa by the Prime Minister? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the answer that was received, I do not believe that any official answer as such has reached the eighth floor as uf yet, I think it was an answer that was given by the Prime Minister in response to a question on the floor of the House of Commons on yesterday.Or was it Friday; I am not sure, I think it was yesterday. So, Mr.

Speaker, we prefer to wait,particularly in a matter such as this,to withhold full comment until we have a complete and direct answer from the Prime Minister himself and at that period in time then we will be prepared to give a comment.suffice it to say,pothing that has been said before or since the communication went from the government to the Prime Minister of Canada and to Premier Levesque has changed or altered in any respect the position of the government in this Province. MR. E. ROBERTS : Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2443

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 925 SD - 2 ~~. SPEAKER (Simms): Supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I understood the minister correctly what he was saying is ~~at Mr. Trudeau made some statements in the House in Ottawa yesterday and that these do not constitute, nor would they be held out to be 1 I suggest, a formal reply by the Government pf Canada to the letter which was sent to them by the Premier and which he told us about ,and in fact tabled here in the House 1 I think it was Wednesday of last week, one day last week.

I simply want to ask 1then 1if the ' comments and the position adopted by the Minister of ~.ines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) earlier this day is the position of the government or not? The Minister of Mines and Energy has made some statements indicating the government's position. I want to know simply whether it is the position of the government and this is the first chance I have had to ask? MR. S. NEARY: MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. E. ROBERTS : Off the cuff. (Inaudible) statements (inaudible) well, I do not know if it is in order for me, I am quite prepared to but I am not allowed to ask questions.

I mean, I did hear the minister's own sibilant tones saying that he thought the Prime Minister's statement was encouraging and left the door open and so forth and so on,but I simply want to know if we are to take that as being the government's position? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: The Minister of Mines and Energy speaks, Mr. Speaker, as any minister, he is speaking for the government from that point of view 1but I think it is consistent with, you know, my answer. 2444

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 926 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is, I would not, at the present time, wish to pass any official opinion of the government,as such, as to the reaction from the Prime Minister of Canada until such time as we get a definitive reaction from him. The statements that were made could be described as encouraging in some respects,but they certainly were not definitive. Obviously the Government of Canada requires a certain amount of time in which to consider the response,as witness the additional supplemenatary remarks made by the bon.

Marc LaLonde when asked about the situation to the effect that he wished to discuss the matter further with the Ministers of Mines of Energy, both of Newfoundland and Quebec. And I presume that because the Minister of Mines and Energy for Canada (Mr.

LaLonde) has made this statement that we can certainly hold out hope, and indeed not just hope but the expectation and the right that our letter will be given deep and sober consideration, and after the federa~ government has had an opportunity to make these consultations and its enquiries,then we will get a full and complete and direct reply at which time we will be responding in kind. MR. SPEAKER ( Simms): the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, the han. member for Thank you.

I think we are getting near the end of the vein that can usefully be explored, given the fact that no answer has come officially on behalf of the Government of Canada, and the Prime Minister apparently was responding to a question in the House of Commons, if the reports are accurate, and I am quite sure that that question was not prompted by the government of this Province 1given the circumstances. What I simply want to ask is whether, to the knowledge of the acting Premier,any communication has come from Mr. LaLonde, the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, I believe is the correct title, but anyway.the hen.

Mr. LaLonde in Ottawa, with respect to trying to mediate or to try to bring together a minister or somebody from the government in this Province and somebody of an equal weight from the Government of Quebec with a view to trying to get a resolution of this 2445

April 22, 1980 ~lR. ROSE:RTS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : l1.R. l-IARS HALL: Tape No. 926 NM - 2 problen by that: means ? Tne hon . President of the Council . Dire ctly , Mr. Speaker , other than the fact I re ad a report in ~~e press to the effect that the hon. ge~tleman is going to discuss the matter further, I do not: know whether it is correct to call it an issue of mediacion because the government: has ta.lten a particular stand but - ~IR. ROBERTS : How about bringing it together. MR.

MARSf!ALL : - bringing togeth er whether the hon . - that che hon . gentleman obviously intends to proceed farther and specifically for this reason, this is why I do not: wish to make a more definitive response tha.n I have alrea dy given because l think that: probably if you make too many responses in bet ween time, until you get the response, tilat it will not really be in the co ta l bese incerest of the people of the Province . 2 4 tl6

April 22 I 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : HR. S. NEARY : Tape 927 EC- l The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I would like to direct a question to the President of the Council (Mr. W. MarshAll) • For several 1110nths past now and probably for the last year or so, we have been hearing- reports about a roll on, roll off ferry service that is scheduled to commence - and I understand it is to commence sho~ly - between a port in Massachusetts and Arqentia.

I would like to ask the hon. g-entleman if he could enlig-hten the House of what is involved in this roll on, roll off ferry service? Could the hon. g-entleman give us a few facts about it? Bee&use all the statements we have heard so far are very vaque and g-eneral and the people of this Province are not too familiar with what it is and what kind of a service is qoinq to be implemented. MR. SPEAKER: HR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, I , too , have heard of this proposed service, but at this particular stage and at this particular time, unless one of the other ministers has any in-depth knowledg-e with respect to it, I prefer to take notice of the question, because I cannot qive the type of detail that is required. So I will take notice of the question if the hon. gentleman will permit. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S.

NEARY: Mr .• Speaker, to my knowledge the - well, the provincial government, I know, are pledg-ed to saving the Newfoundland railway and protecting C.N.'s interests in this Province. And they also have on a federal/p:[t1Vincial committee - the representative, I believe, is Mr. O'Brien, the Director of Transportation. Would that gentleman not inform the government of what is going- on in the way of transportation in this Province? For instance, I would like to know if this service is going to be solely and exclusively for bringing tractor trailers from the United States to Newfoundland.

Well, if they are, I would like to know. That seems to me to be a very uneconomical sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, and, certainly, that is not going to be the reason for implementing that service, 2447

April 22, 1980 Tape 927 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: just to bring ninety tractor trailers once a week up from Massachusetts. I would like to know how it is going to cut into C.N.'s operations in this Province? '!he ~n. gentleman has pledged himself to protect the - Is it competition? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. s. NEARY: Well, that is what I am trying to find out. Will it be competition for C.N.? Will it mean a layoff in other parts of the Province? How much employment will it create in Arqentia itself?

I mean, there are any number of questions that I could ask the hon. gentleman, but the hon. gentleman does not seem to be familiar with this new service that is coming up. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member has asked his question? MR. S • NEARY : AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKERs MR. S. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! Do I understand the han. No, no , Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible) preliminary. I will accept that as a brief

preamble. What I am really saying, Mr. Speaker, is that th;is - service will have a direct bearing on the future of C.N. in this Province, and I think it is about time that somebody, either provincially or federally, told the people, especially C.N. employees, what is happening. What is this service all about? That is what I am asking the han. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. w. MARSHALL: Mz:. Speaker, I can only reiter_ate what I said.

Of course, I am generally familiar with it, but at the present time I am not in a position to give the type of definitive answer that the question requires. All I can say is I will take notice of it. I know the Mr. O'Brien, to ~~- ~~· referreci 1 in the Department of Transportation and Communications is fully conversant with it and it is for this specific purpose that I take notice of the question.

With respect to the future of the C.N.R., I know the han. member will aqree that it is quite evident that there is nobody in this government who is more conversant with the interests of the people of the Canadian National in this Province and the railway in this Province 244B

_,.__ April 22, l980 Tape 927 EC- 3 MR. W. ~~ than this partic:ul.ar government, and I think we have shown this in our actions as well as in our words , and we will c:ontin11e to make sure that the interests of the people in Canadic National and the railway in this Province are protected to th.e best deqree that they possibly can. As for the rest of the question, Mr. Speaker, it is net unusual.

As I say, I will have to take nctice of it, because I de not want to give the hon. gentleman an answer to a question and have him pop up on his feet tomorrow and say, you knoW, I did not give it completely or I did not give it accurately. I want the opportunity to be able to take notice of it.. Ma. S:. li1EARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Ma. SPEJUCE~ (Silums): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this is a very significant event, and the bon. gentleman just pledged his government again to protecting the C.N, operatious in this Province and C.N. employees, would the non. gantlem.an indicate to 2449

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 928 EL - l MR. S. NEARY: the House that if this company is trying to do by the back door what so many otheD companies try to do by the front door, and that is to cut into CN's operations in this province? Will the han. gentleman reassure the CN employees that this government will not allow that to happen in any way, shape or focn that there will be no cutting into CN' s operations, no lay-offs of CN employees as a result of this Norweigan ship,manned by a Norweigan crew, coming from Massachusetts to Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER (Si111111S) : The hon. the President of the council. MR.W.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as to will I give assurances, you know, I have already answered the question. All I say to the hon. gentleman, if he wants assurances with respect to the future of the railway in this province, he can endorse what the Provincial Government has done and he can approach his friends in Ottawa and seek their assistance. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Sii!IIIIS) : MR. T • BEID<"ETT : Hear, he-. The hen. the Member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and it relates to Parsons Pond. It is a district question, Mr. Speaker.

Parsons Pond flood plain, ~t has been ongoing for the last three years, so I under­ stand. I understand the department did make some commitment or other to help the p~ople over there and I would like,if the minister would explain the present status and actually, Mr. Speaker, I will direct this one at the Minister of Municipal Affairs(N. Windsor) but I am a little bit cloudy on who, at this moment, I should be directing my question to because the Minister of Social Services (T. Hickey) might ~ry well "be able to answer it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Housing. The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs 2450

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 928 EL - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is correct, perhaps the question should be directed to my colleague, the Minister of Social Services (T . Hickey) • As I understand, this agreement made by the Province several years ago was that the department would install a sewage system, I think it was, in a sub-division and that the Department of Social Services would make provisions on an individual basis for relocation of a particular number of homes that were affected, a certain amount per home,to relocate these people to the new sub-division.

How many homes are involved, perhaps my colleague can answer. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. T. HICKEY: The han. The Minister of Social Services. Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the question under advisement and get the details the hon. gentleman is wishing to have. I can tell him that one of the problems and one of the things which I recall causing the delay was the increase in the amount of money that the individuals were requesting. The initial estimate, it seems to me 1 and I stand to be corrected-and I am not going to state the amounts because I am not quite sure.

It is quite a while now since I have seen the figures - but it seems to me that there was an escalation in cost and I believe that that was one of the causes for action not being taken. But I will have to check with my staff to get up~to-date information on it. MR. T. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER (Sii!Uils): for st. Barbe. MR. T. BENNET'f: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the Member Mr. Speaker. Yes, a supplementary, please.

I hope the minister , and I would like for him to confirm the fact that this time, while the opportunity presents itself,and remember that 1977 dollars are not the same as 1980 dollars, Mr. Minister, because none of this project, at this moment, has concluded- aene- of this project, '-;:t. S~er , has concluded, I understand, Mr. Speaker, something like seventeen house~are involved. And, I think, probably two at this time, might be halfway complete. So, I wonder if the minister, 2451

April 22. 1960 Tape No. 928 EL - 3 MR . T. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, at this ti111e, would be s1,1re that the job can be complete this Sllllllller, even if it does·· take an extra few dollars to complete the job? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. T. HI~Y: Mr. Speake::, I cannot qive any COllllllitlllent, as I said, until I refresh DIY memory with the details of the case. And, as I said to my bon. friend, I will certainly undertake to g-et the detail. When he refers to '77 dollars and applies them to 1980.

I can at~sure him that the estimates that I recall, and aqain as I said, I am g-oing- on memory . o~ the estimates and the increase therein that I recall, certainly did not have a span of three years. They were, at best, a year Qld or aaybe less 1and certainly I also recall that there was some difficulty in establishing- a justification for the kind of increases that the people were requesting. But I will get the details and I will get back to my bon. friend. 2452

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 929 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) and I want to direct a question about a committee that was set up by the former Minister of Forestry, I think maybe sometime last Summer.

Now the minister will forgive me if I forget the name of the committee because there are so many ongoing committees that one has great difficulty in remembering the names of the various committees and when they were set up, but just to enlighten the minister the committee was established sometime, I think, last Summer to look into the forest potential in certain areas of the Province, one area being the Eastern

section of Newfoundland, thet Bonavista Peninsula area and the other

section , the Northern Peninsula. The purpose again of the Committee was to look into the forest potential in terms of ascertaining whether we could not start some otner forest related industries and the one specified in the terms of reference to the committee was a thermo chemical plant. So I am just wondering what is the status of these committees or committee, whatever it was, in the singular or the plural, and when does the minister expect a report from the committees? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response to the question, that report has not been presented to government. The study is still ongoing both on the Bonavista Peninsula and on the Great Northern Peninsula. We expect the report within a month or so. The preliminary report, if you want, or at least the preliminary readings from the persons who are doing the study, is that the annual allowable cuts both in the Bonavista Peninsula and in the Great Northern Peninsula may not be sufficient to allow one of the standard types of mills that we have both at Grand Falls and Corner Brook now.

They are now further evaluating other types of industry which may be feasible both in the Bonavista Peninsula and the Great Northern Peninsula . MR. LUSH: . A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The han. member for Terra Nova. 2453

April 22,1980 Tape No. 929 AH-2 MR. LUSH: How does this committee now, Mr. Speaker, fit into the structure of the Royal Commission that the minister set up to look into the budworm 1-because as I understand it this Royal Commission was not only to look into the spruce budworm :Out also to look into many other areas related to the forests? So is there any overlapping or is the con'l'.ittee that I am talking about going on to pursue its own wor~c and is not related at all to the task force-and that the minister does indeed expect the report of this committee set up by the previous minister within a month? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, the report of the committee doing the feasibility work for both the Bonavista Peninsula and the Great Northern Peninsula, that report will certainly have to fit in the Royal Commission guidelines as set out in our report last week,or announcements setting out the guidelines and mandate of the Royal Commission to study not only the spruce budworm problem in Newfoundland as it is being conceived by some persons,but actually a Royal Commission which looks at both forest protection and forest management hopefully for the full utilization of the forest industry.And certainly the Royal Commission will be studying in great deal detail this feasibility report on the Bonavista and Great Northern Peninsula, the report from the Roddickton- Main Brook task force report which certainly will have certain considerations in it as it relates to wood supply and maximization and utilization of the forest industry and certainly also will be considering, I would think, in great detail the feasibility report done for the Happy Valley-Goose area of Labrador that my good member is aware of and which has certain implications for wood working industries in Labrador.

MR. LUSH: A supplementary. Mr. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The minister indicated that it would have to fit into the guidelines of the Royal Commission, The Royal Commission coming after,will this not slow down the report of this committee since,as 2454

April 22,1980 Tape No. 929 AH-3 MR. LUSH: I said,the Royal Commission was established after and if the committee was going about its work well then - and it is going to be completed in a month, so there are almost two questions - does that mean we will have no action on that committee until the report of the Royal Commission? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. minister. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the sequence is that the Royal Commission will be presenting a report to government sometime at the end of this year relating to forest management and protection.

We have a feasibility report that will be taking place and presented to government very shortly with regard to aspects of forestry in the Great Northern and Bonavista Peninsulas. Simply because the Royal Commission comes afterwards does not preempt the fact that we cannot take action on the report based on the Bonavista and the Great Northern Peninsulas. All it will mean is that members of the Royal Commission, their report at the end of this year may be effected by what is presented in the feasibility reports, not only for the Great Northern Peninsulas and Bonavista but all also for Happy Valley-Goose Bay. MR.

SPEAKER: 11R. THOMS: The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) I would like to direct a question to the President of the Council. I do not know if the President of the Council saw the programme on CBC last week, theTors Cove Caoer, a report done by Michael Harris. Howeve~ in that programme 2455

April 22, 1980, Tape 930, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: on one occasion they referred to a prominent St. John's lawyer, which would probably leave himself and myself out of it, but a prominent St. John's lawyer who was involved in that particular drug bust. Also, the programme referred - MR. NEARY: the way. MR. THOMS: They were never charged by Also, the programme referred to a St. John's developer who was involved with that particular incident. MR. NEARY: Never charged. Walking around scott free. MR.

THOMS: The impression which was left by that programme, in the minds of an awful lot of people in this Province, was that it could be any one of the lawyers in this Province, or it could be any one of the developers in this Province. As a matter of fact, I think it was said jokingly, but a Roman Catholic priest asked me if I was the lawyer they were talking about. I understand - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: Yes, I wish it were. I understand that the CBC does have the names; they have a lawyer's name, they have a developer's name.

My question to the President of the Council i~ does the Department of Justice plan to investigate this matter to obtain the materials from the CBC and determine whether or not charges should be brought? MR. NEARY: The masterminds behind the whole thing. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The bon. the President of the Council. 2456

April 22, 1980, Tape 930, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I did see the programme and I think, if memory serves me correctly, certainly it was a lawyer and a developer. And I think the reference was to an entrepreneur rather than a developer, I am not sure. But anyway, it referred to somebody within a certain group of people in society. The hon. gentleman is aware the matter of investigation and the matter of prosecution with respect to drug offences is a matter falling entirely within the purview of the federal government.

Now, just by way of explanation, I know my hon. friend knows this, to the House, there is federal legislation that is enforced by the provincial government under the Criminal Code, certain aspects of it, under the Criminal Code. These particular offences come within the purview of the federal government.

It is the federal government, really which initiates them, which does the investigation, so I would think that as far as the Department of Justice is concerned, the Department of Justice would obviously have concern, as the Department of Justice,with respect to the fact if anybody is walking around who happens to have been accused of committing a crime who has not been prosecuted. But in the order of things it is for the federal government to initiate these things and it would be for the federal government to take the steps described by the hon. gentleman. MR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): A supplementary. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: I realize, of course, that it is a federal offence, but I do not believe for a moment that it would be incorrect or wrong for the 2457

April 22, 1980, Tape 930, Page 3 -- apb MR. THOMS: Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) to request that such an investigation be carried out. I mean, would the Department of Justice agree to getting in touch with the proper authorities to see if an investigation could be initiated? MR. NEARY: The programme was shown in this Province. MR. THOMS: Yes. And the programme was shown in this Province and to a certain extent, I guess, irresponsibly because it labelled two groups of people for what may or may not be the wrongdoing of two individuals. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. the President of Mr. Speaker, as I say, it is not within the purview of the government to do this type of thing. I mean, normally it does not take this type of action. But I would certainly be prepared to take the matter under advisement because if - I mean, the most the provincial government can do, as the hon. member is aware, is just draw the situation to the attention of the federal Minister of Justice and the federal authorities. And I have no doubt that these appropriate authorities already have notice of it.

But in case they have not, I see no reason why the department would not draw it to their attention. 2458

April 22, 1980 Tape 931 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK t My question is to the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture, having to do with the moose and the caribou. With the caribou herds when the construction of the Upper Churchill - biologists now say that buically with the construction of \ the Upper Churchill, it blocked the migrating patterns of the caribou and that is the reason why the 150,000 caribou are up North and 'the smaller herds are down South.

The question I want to ask basically is with regard to the construction of the Lower Churchill and Muskrat Falls. Is his department, as well as other departments in government, making sure that this does not hoappen in the future? That is one question. Also, iii. _l9~-~ the government ended up putting moose into St. Lewis River district, basically Southern and Eastarn Labrador. Since 1958 no hunting has taken place and people now in that area are wondering when the season is going to be opened. And the third questioJ:!,_~!I .. now that moose are coming down in great quantities from Quebec - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! The han. member, I believe , has uready asked two questions and there are only a couple of moments left. Perhaps he would let the hon. minister answer those and then put a supplementary. MR. E • ROBERTS : We will grant leave for the minister to answer _(_i~~qi.ple). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think it is quite normal, if we read the Standing Rules, that members are entitled to ask a question. The han. member has already asked two and was about to ask a third, and thare is a procedure for that where you ask supplementaries. MR. E.

ROBERTS: Your Honour, when you ask a question it is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder, and I mean, my han. friend is simply asking one question in more than one part. And given the fact the time is short, he should be allowed to ask them. We will gladly consent to whatever time the minister needs to answer. I think it is an important matter, you know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think I have already made the ruling and I would ask the hon. minister if he wishes to respond at this time ,to respond. 2459

April 22, 1980 Tape 931 EC - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: If I may 1 Mr. Speaker • The m&i,n question I was asking, Mr. Speaker, if I may clari~ the situation - MR. SPEAKER (Silllms) : Order, please! I think I have ruled that the hen. member has asked his questions, and,if the minister wishes to respond, now would be an appropriate time, but if you have • furtt:'•r _question, to ask him as a supplementary. MR. E. HISCOCK: Will we have time enough? MR. SPEAKER: Well, I am not sura. The hen. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. MR. R. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to the first question, the hon. member, I am sure, is aware of the fact that just in this present sitting of this hon. House, legislation affecting the environmental impact on developments within the Province is about to be proclaimed, hopefully in this session, and th.&t will, in fact, require the detailed studies and the environmental impact on that particular development as it relates to the topography, the geography and the wildlife in that area will be done in due course, thanks to the 'forward thinking and positive policies of the present government.

With regard to the second question, surveys have been done from time to time since 1958 on that particular moose population and, as of this present date, there is not thought to __ be a significant enough increase in the population to warrant a season at this time, but it is under continuous monitoring and the assessment is made annually. MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

A supplementary, the hen. the member for As I said before to the minister, the population of moose in Quebec are now on the North Shore and moving into Southern Labrador in great quantities - MR. S. NEARY: The Separatists are moving out. MR. E. HISCOCK: so much so that in St. Pauls River, for example, one man ended up getting fourteen moose and selling it in Quebec 2460

April 22, 1980 Tape 931 EC - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: at $1 ~ pol.lll.d. But the residents in my district CU1d that part basic&lly want to know what does that minister have planned in tha future? Will he allow the Newfoundland residents of Labrador a licence so that they can hl.lll.t the moose that ar1! c:ominq dolm from Q'W!bec or is he in consultation with J~~aDaqement about the IIIQOiie population, as well as cari)x)u, that are crossing over the border? MR. s. NEARY : They a;re qettinq out before the referiJildWil. MR. SPEUER (Sill!lu) : The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUlture. MR. R..

DiUm s Yea, Mr. Speaker. If I can qather, the question that was asked _i.s Whether, in fact, our department is involved in adequate proteetion or control of the macae population as it relates to possible increases that are cominq in from Quebec. As I mentioned previously, the department is doinq the necessary counts aD'd so on from time to time as resources and the time of the year 2461

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 932 NM- 1 MR. DAWE: permit. It is very difficult taking the opinions of individuals who are in the area as it relates to a total moose population since they are only dealing with pockets of the moose population that are in their immediate area.

I think our department officials have better arrangements to travel and have a look at the total population as it relates to the generally large area rather than the specific one,and I am sure that in given areas the moose population may in fact be significant but on an overall picture my officials tell me that the situation is such that it does not warrant a season at this particular time. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! The time for oral questions has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I have the answer to the question posed by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle on Friday for which notice was given. The question was - MR. ROBERTS: Reductions. Yes. MS VERGE: - the number of teaching positions which will be allocated by the Department of Education to the Vinland Integrated School Board for next year compared with the present year. The answer is that there will be no change in the number of teaching positions allocated by government to the Vinland Integrated School Board. This year the total allocation is 109. It will be exactly the same next year.

This includes the regular allocation, principals, assistant superintendents, programme co-ordinators, superintendents, small schools, average mean enrolment, these are the formulas used to make up the total. In the present school year there are nine special education teachers and this number cannot be determined accurately for next year because there is no limitation placed by the department on the number of - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible ) the regular allocation. 2462

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 932 NM - 2 MS VERGE: special education teachers. It is based on the need so that the number will be determined when the schocl board knows how many handicapped or students with special needs have to be served next year. So that there could be more special education teachers next year than in the present year. But as for the regular allocation it will remain the same next year as it is this year. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER (Silllrns) : Order 11, second reading of bill entitled, "An Act Respecting the Establishment of a Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council." (No. 16) MR.

ROBERTS: Does anybody recall the order of play on this one? Bill 16 is it not? MR. SPEAKER: I believe that is what I just quoted. Order 11, the hon. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. CARTER: - first of all I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the sun is shining and yet here I am. So surely there must be something - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CARTER: The frost is not out of the ground yet. - something worthwhile to discuss. I would also like to make some reference to the fact - about interruptions.

I was always under the impression that the two interruptions that were always parliamentary were •shame•and•rubbish! I was going to pursue it in the point of order earlier this afternoon,but I did not think it worthwhile. Speaking of art and the importance of art, some years ago when the Arts and Culture Centre was a new building a visitor to the city was passing by and it was pointed out to him and said, "That is the new arts centre." He said, "Well,that is grand because a lot of Newfoundlanders have bad 'earts." Well,I do not know how bad our 'eart is,but I think that any political speech - 2463

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 932 NM - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) months ago. MR. CARTER: - I think any political speech should be composed of three elements - and of course this is a 2464

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 933 SD - 1 MR. J. CARTER: political speech and I make no apology for that- you should have something to praise, something to blame and something to view with alarm. Well, I am going to start off with something to praise, and the thing I have to praise is a new _ .,. -· publication of John de Visser's photographs of Newfoundland. They are coloured plate~ He has going around Newfoundland and Labrador with a camera and he has taken some coloured photographs, the text is by David Blackwood,and I think it is one of the finest publications to honour Newfoundland · that is possible to find.

It is available in most of the bookstores and I certainly recommend it to hon. members and would recommend it to the general public. I would like to . suggest that it is a fine present to send to anyone outside the Province because I think it puts this Province in a proper light, in a better light than most publications usually do. And this brings me to the central theme of what I wanted to discuss about this bill and that is that art is important; in fact, it is vital. Now, I would, for instance, like to draw the attention of the House to the very building that we are in at the moment.

I do not know who was the stumblebum who devised and drew up the plans for this building,but I think it is surely one of the ugliest, one of the most useless buildings that ever defaced the skyline of St. John's. MR. J. CARTER: Which one is that? MR. J, CARTER: This building that we are in right now. The front of it leaks, no one has been able to make it waterproof, the wind whistles around it, the draft comes in at every chink, it is as ugly as it is possible to be and unfortunately it will last for probably 200 years.

Now, if there is anyone here who feels that is not too high a price to pay for bad art, and after all architecture is art, it is one of the most visible forms of art and I think that this should draw the attention of the House to the importance of this bill. And I notice that the central

part 2465

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 933 so- 2 MR. J. CARTER: of this bill is that this Committee, and I am readinq under headinq 5,

section c, "It will be to advise the minister with respect to the development of arts in this Province," and I understand and unless the minister tells me differently, I will understand art there to be the broadest possible category and certainly to include architecture. I would like to make a plea to the members of the government,or the members of the House but particularly the members of t.'te government ,that when this Arts Council is set up that they take particular note of the state of architecture in this Province. By the same token, the layout of streets and , town planning itself is a genuine art form.

I do not know how many people realize that the steep hills that St. John's is afflicted with were originally firebreaks, constructed when the city was built after the Great Fire of 1892. I suppose because they were rights of way or clearings,people started to use them, the next thing they paved them and now they are regularly used hills and they are far too steep for horse and cart let alon~ a car or pedestrian traf­ fic. Yet here we have them and we have had this chance time and time again to lay out St.

John's properly and to set out guidelines for the orderly development of this city and yet the one rule that seems to apply to St . John's is that there are no rules, no rules whatsoever. If you want to build a building with ten times coverage ,go ahead, you might as well. And why should anyone put in a plan for less than ten times coverage if that is what you can get, why not twenty times coverage, thirty times coverage? There is no limit, spot zoning seems to be the rule of the day. So in the matter of art, St. John's, I think, has to go to the bottom of its class. 2466

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 934 DW - 1 MR. J. CARTER: And it is too bad because we have a very delightful natural setting and with just a little bit of care and attention and a little bit of constructive criticism st. John's could be a very, very attractive city. Now this is my something to blame. My something to view with alarm is - and here I am taking a page out of Ray Guy's writings - and that is that the houses themselves that we build are usually designs that are copied holus-bolus from designs that-have worked away.

There is no consideration taken of the climatic factors down here, we do not,as Ray Guy says , ' block the wind and trap the sun: Instead we construct great breezeways for parking a car,and 1 of course, we should realize that the rain here does not fall straight down 1 it falls on a slant and very often it will go right through a breezeway. So the houses are quite unsuit- able and built often facing the wrong way . It is just unfor- tunate. And yet all of this has to do with art. Now I do not know if that would be the only jurisdiction that this Arts Council will consider itself to have business with.

I am sure it will not because ,as someone once said, "Life is short, art is long, opportunity fleeting, experience treacherous and judgement is difficult." Now, Ithinkinthe Department of E~ucation there is a vote for travel subsidies for students.

I am just wondering if the minister when he gets up to close the debate whether it is his intention to take over those particular subsidies in his Bill or in his department~ I know this Bill does not do it directly,al- though I am sure that the members of this Arts Council would be in a rosition to recommend what groups should have what subsidies. r am thinking there now particularly of the various choirs that have sprung up around the city and very often they take

part in inter-provincial competitions. 2467

April 22,1980 Tape No. 934 DW - 2 MR. J. CARTER : And the cost of sending a whole choir away even to a neighbouring province is usually beyond the capacity of any one school and that will require some government assistance 1and I would think would be validly under the aegis of the minister's department and governed largely under the cloak of this Bill. The St.

John's Symphony Orchestra,! understand 1 gets some assistance from this government.! would like to know how much and whether or ~ot that amount can be increased in the near future, because I think that is one of the finest things to have been developed in the last few years and I would like to take this opportunity to praise them. concert is always looked forward to. And their annual I have mentioned architecture and I think by the same yardstick landscaping could be taken under the umbrella of this Bill. I think all members are familiar with Bowring Park.

I do not know how many people are familiar with Bowring Park as it was some years ago before they started to modernize it. It is still a· delightful place, it was even better. It was laid out by a very famous architect by the aame of Mr. Kotius. He was a man from Holland who had a great deal of experience in landscaping and a particular I think it was a farm that was bought out there and it was gra~ually or quite quickly developed into Bowring Park.

The natural setting continues far beyond the park,in fact it goes up the river for about another milP-, ~nd I understand that the city council has some reservation on that land and I would just like to say here and now what a fine thing, what a marvelous park it would be if that whole gully were developed. needs for the city 2468 The recreational

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 935 EL - 1 MR. J. CARI'ER: are growing all the time and if anyone is looking for the park to be developed that particular gully is something that should be looked at very carefully. The arterial road looks down on it just after the entry from the Goulds and if you look to the, I guess to the North, when you are driving along there you can see this long gully and it is a very attractive spot and well worth looking at, perhaps by the Arts Council that will be set up by this Bill. Now, I know I am riding my own hobby horse of architecture and landscaping,but I think that is a member's right.

We all have our own particular interests and mjne happen to lie in that direction.

One of the questions, I think, that has to be raised is, since television, not only Island-wide but nationwide, I suppose internationally-wide now that we have cable TV, and the productions are so slick and any production is naturally s~o;tlived because having been seen once it is iiiDilediately out of fashion, , that perhaps the only art that can be successful will be professional art,that is to say, there will be no room left for amateur theater or amateur musicals, only the very highest quality professionals will be able to enter.

Years ago, I suppose, a repertory theater could travel all across Canada with its plays. But now, show them on television one night and that is iti everyone has seen them. It is remarkable, in my view, that the cinema has managed so strong a comeback because most of the first line movies are now able to be seen on television and this surely, you know, shortens their life. So, perhaps we are talking about a lot of money,a lot of support for worthwhile artistic ventures. Perhaps the people who train artists, train actors will have to be very highly paid in order to get the quality that is going to be needed.

There will be no longer any room for, I will not say second-rate, but for, well, extremely amateur productions. They will be seen as extremely amateur. I think we 2469

April 22, 1980 Tape No . 935 EL - 2 MR. J. CARTER : are becoming :nach seve .rer critics. And the other question we have to ask, and I am bac k to my old hobby horse again - I am sorry i=ting around , Mr. Speaker , but I thin.'< this is th .e kind of bill th at encourage s this kind of discu ssion - are our cities going to become , yo u l<n .ow, dreary and utili tar ian , or are they going to be a pleasure to life in? l'.re the core s of our cities going to become ghos t towns at night? or are th ey going to be occupied both day and by night?

And I think art can supply same of the answers and can solve so me of the prob lems . I remember th .e hi9h hopes that a lot of Newfoundlanders had when the iss ue of Confederation was debated some thirty years ago. At that tim e, a lot of people thought that we would have American efficiency, French culture and British go ver nm.ent , and British · style government - or Canadian, our being part of Can ad a. Instead, we got American culture , French style of government and British efficie ncy.

Now, : do not know what that has to do with art, but I think perhaps the art of politics being the art of the possible , perhaps 2470

April 22, 1980, Tape 936, Page 1 -- apb MR. CARTER: this Committee will have something to do with politicians. And I do not object to politicians being put on such an art council. I think that a lot of the decisions that are made, and that should be made, should be political in the highest sense. When I say political 1 I mean they should be decisions that are made with an ear to the ground because everyone feels himself to be a valid critic of art and I think that this is just the way things are. So with those few words I will sit down.

But I would like to say that very shortly we have high hopes of introducing into this House an artistic endeavour that I think is well worth considering and that, of course, is the new flag. The new flag has been chosen and it will be introduced into this House in about a week's time and I look forward very much to that happy event. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: The hen. the member for Mr. Speaker, I should like to have a few brief words on the bill. It is speaking on the arts and of our culture, of course.

Certainly in this Province I feel there is most certainly a very broad scope from which one could speak. So many avenues of culture, so many avenues of art,as the han. gentleman across the way has suggested. Sometimes when I am speaking to our counterparts up in Ottawa some of the lingo I use is not fully understood, when I speak in my own local tongue, in Newfoundland, which seems to be - even the language seems to be a little bit different from what is understood in other parts of Canada. 2471

April 21, 1980, Tape 936, Page 2 -- apb MR. BENNETT: Likewise, I would like to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that outport life, I grew up in an outport, sometimes is not fully understood, especially in conversation, by people who have been born and bred and educated in a city. Like, for argument's sake, there are so many words in our dictionary. A few days ago I said to a girl on the telephone, in Ottawa, 'Run down to the ballycater, make sure you put on your raquettes now, and get some splits so that we can have a mug-up'. She did not have a clue what I was talking about. Did not have a clue. But a lot of this, Mr.

Speaker, a lot of this is falling by the wayside. This,in itself, is all the culture of our Province. I feel that we have to offer in this Province in the form of culture almost a language of our own just being blended in, I would like to suggest, from so many different foreign languages like French, and Scottish, and Irish. And by the time it is all blended down and you find the different parts of the Province that have different accents -on the Northern Peninsula, and in Corner Brook, and in St.

John's and Bay Roberts, in all these areas they certainly have a different accent and, in a lot of cases,most certainly, different meanings for different words. And it is a shame, in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, to see this fall by the wayside and be forgotten. Newfoundland is famous for its jokes. It has a real heritage in jokes themselves. A real heritage in jokes. Probably, Mr.

Speaker, some of the hon. gentlemen in the House heard yesterday morning's open line - a joke I heard yesterday morning on open line: A woodsman was applying for a job and the employer said, 'I am sorry, you are a woodsman, I cannot employ you'. He said, 'We have no work for 2472

April 22, 1980, Tape 936, Page 3 -- apb MR. BENNETT: woodsmen'. 'But',he said, 'you just employed my buddy'. 'But your buddy is a pilot'. 'Well', he said, 'now if he is a pilot how can he pile it if I am not there to cut it?' That is a real, true Newfoundland story. 2473

April 22, 1980 Tape 937 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. T. BENNETT: How can he pile it if I do not cut it? Many of these Newfie jokes have come down through the years, and they should, and I suspect a lot of them are being documented at this time. Let us hope they are anyway. And a lot of the heritage of this sort, I would hope, finds its way into our schools to be nurtured and, indeed, added to. I do not think for one minute , Mr. Speaker, that we should try to change and be completely and entirely ~orth American.

I do not think we should try to be Americans~ I think we are as well off being Newfoundlanders and let somebody else understand us. I try to make myself understood by the rest of Canada. It is not always easy with the rest of the people I come in contact with across the nation. And it is a little harder to make people in the Southern part of the States understand us; they have their own way. I think that our special way of life and our heritage and our art, Mr. Speaker, are what attract people to come to this Province as tourists.

I think that our tourist office should excel in this area of development to make sure that our art and our culture is nurtured and, most certainly, advertised through the res~ of Canada and the U.s., where the dollars are 1 out there. Hopefully we can bring them in through the tourist development. The language, the old songs, the music, all of us know somebody, a neighbour, who has written sonqs , has written poetry, has written his own music, . c:iieated his own. And I venture to bet, Mr.

Speaker, that there has been 1110re of this type of creation in this Province and in this colony, mind you, when it was a colony, than any other province across Canada. Newfoundland being the oldest colony, I feel, must surely goodness have more to offer or as much to offer as any part to which one would travel. 'the mode of travel around the Province, and especially in rural areas- 1957, I guess, saw the first vehicle, the first thing on wheels ever to travel from Corner Brook to st. Anthony. 2474

April 22, 1980 Tape 937 EC - 2 MR. T. BENNETT! The hon. the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House) knows who was driving it. It was a twelve passenqer sllDWIIICibile 1 the very first thing ever to travel on wheels powered by an engine,- from Corner Brook to St. Anthony, and I drove it myself,• As recently as 1958! P_;oior- tc;> that - had our old dog harnesses and our horses and our sleighs and everything else 1 which were all part of our culture. It has all fallen by the wayside, it is all gone and forgotten, a lot of it destroyed.

I find too much of it being taken ~~~ ~~ Provin~; __ - ~-~~ the last fifteen or twenty years I have met a lot of it _: in vans , in trunks of motor cars. I have met people on the road when the road was gravel in St. Barbe, I have travelled and have met people and they would open their trunks and they would have some of our antiques, our old shotquns. And to me it was criminal to see the way the Province was beinq raked over - pilferage, I feel. It should have been stopped a long, lonq time ago. And if it is not being stopped, then it should be stopped right now.

I would certainly like to recommend that we qo -r~q_ht after this like a dog at dinnertime and make sure for certain that no more of this stuff qoes out of the Province, because it is the heritage of the people who live here now and it will be 11110re valuable as time goes on. It is not very long ago, Mr. Speaker, that the politics of Newfoundland was dominated completely and entirely by the people who lived in the city 1 primarily St. John's.

But now, you know, a lot of people like myself have aspired , · and hope fully now we can come in and we can express our views and what we see from the rural areas where, Hr. Speaker, a great deal of culture for the Province has qrown, has been created- the old spinning wheels, and, like I say, the old shotguns and the harnesses and our mode of transportation and method of life and the way that we carry on, · And mind you, a lot of this should come into the city of st. John's to be preserved, because it is the capital city. As much as we would like to 11110ve it 2475

April 22, 1980 Tape No,938 SO - 1 MR. T. B~TT: over to the West Coast, it might be too much of a hassle to move the seat of government over to the West Coast where we could probably salvage a lot more AN HON. MEMBER: I am all for it. ~R. T. BENNETT: I would like to see a programme where the government 1 possibly, - I do not know, rural development might help, tourist development might help- reach out and bring in a lot more into the _Capital City of the things that are being destroyed and being carried away·- being carried down across the boarder to the US-brought in here and put on display.

I understand that a lot of the material that came out of Port au Choix, the artifacts that came up there - 4,000 or 5,000 years buried in cemeteries - has come into St. John's,- some of it has found its way back again. But blended in with that into a place like Port au Choix 1you should find evidence of the way people lived then, evidence of their having used dogs and whale bone sleds and whatever. It would be the most interesting challenge for anybody to pursue and have taken care of and nutured for the benefit of those who come after we are gone.

It has been a most interesting lifestyle, I think, that Newfoundlanders have· experienced. It has been a hard one but I think Newfoundlanders have proven how they can survive, they have proven to most of the rest of the world how they can survive under extreme hardship. And in surviving they had to devise methods by which they could survive; they had to create and to make, they had to make their own snowshoes, they had to make their own methods of transportation and their own methods of digging in the soil and preserving. Not always did they have deep freezes, Mr. Speaker.

People had to figure a way of salting down their fish and some of the methods used ~ave since, in the last few years, fallen by the wayside when still, in my opinion, they should still be displayed as a way of life that we once did experience and I understand that people loved that way of life and now they feel they are being 2476

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 938 so- 2 MR. T, BENNETT: gypped of a freer way of life. Local goods, especially the development, the creation of local goods, mats, clothing, skins, anything and everything that was a way of life in rural Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion we should sort of today , I think we should go back to it again in a way that we should have it for display purposes for people who come in and see the way of life that we experienced. The way of life in Newfoundland was brought along and of course a lot of the way of life came from the old country.

For those who would serve on the council or whatever might be established, the arts, I would strongly advise that people be chosen or selected, I do not know the method that would be used, but most certainly I would like to see that people should serve for the desire, Mr. Speaker, of serving as much as anything. It is when a person has got the love for doing something they are going to put a lot more effort into it.

If it is going to cost the Province a lot of money to employ people and go out looking for the things to salvage from the cultural end of our life , I feel that they will not put as much effort into it as people who come on to do this thing for the love of doing it. And they will do the research and find the materials . Mr.

Speaker, I really wonder if the people in the Province 1 and indeed the hen. members of this House of Asse~bly, if we value, if we really and truly value the heritage that we have in the past years experienced, ! wonder if we really value the way of life that our forefathers experienced and if we would not like to salvage some of this and have it on display for generations to come. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ! thank you for your time. Hear, hear. 2477

April 22, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : SOME HON. MEMEERS : MS. L. VERGE: Tape No. 939 EL - 1 The han. the Minister of Education. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise to speak in support of the Arts council Bill. This bill is important •nd significant for our Province for many reasons.

Our province, &s has been pointed out by previous speakers, is unique in haviaq a rich tradition of spoken language, song, music, theater, folk arts and crafts, Because, perhaps.of our geographic isolation, we have been able to develop some of these features more fully and richly than our counterparts in central Canada or other parts of North America and we have been able to retain some of our heritage more than other parts of North America. However, of course, with modernization, better communications, much of what we did have only a few years ago, is being eroded.

Much of this rich tradition is being forgotten and younger people, in many cases, do not know anything about it. An example of this, I think, is demonstrated by the reactions to the present exhibition of hooked and poked mats of Newfoundland and Labrador called the 'Fabric of Their Lives•at the Memorial University Extension Servic~ Arts Gallery at the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre. I was very honored to be able to officially open this exhibition about two weeks ago and I commend it to everyone here. The display of 111ats is very well mounted.

The mats were gathered from people from every corner of our province over the last couple of years. The inspiration for the exhibition itself came from a woman by the name of Colleen Lynch who works with the Provincial Government. And it was through her initiative that the contacts were made with, primarily,women in many parts of the Province from St. John's to the Coast of Labrador and the mats were gathered together and have been very well displayed. It is the first such kind of exhibition ever anywhere and it will be going to England and other parts of North America 2478

.. April 22, 1980 Tape No. 939 EL - 2 MS. L. VERGE: before coming back to tour in the rest of our own province. Thi$ I mention by way of illustration of the danger of losing the traditional arts and crafts whic:h were once to borrow the title of the exhibition, •the fabric of the lives'of many peopl.e of our Province. Our Province is also unique ,at least in this country, in having mcciern and well equipped physical centres for arts and culture. We have five such centres 1 in St.

John's, Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Stehpenville and these have been described by Maxim Mazumcia:r, an internationally attained actor and director ,as ,and I quote," Five of the best designed and equipped theatres in the country, Some Provinces do not even have a comparable o.ne•:. There have been in recent years many examples of resurgences of activities in the traditional arts and crafts. We have had several publicatiens dealing with our history and heritage and several cases of documentinq 2479

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 940 GH-1 MS. VERGE: of our past with inspiration from individuals. Again we have had activity in some arts, theatre primarily, also painting, but in most of these cases the activity has been directly due to the inspiration and initiative of a relatively few individuals who do this part-time along with their regular full-time employment, along with their responsibilities for caring for children and managing households.

It has been largely a voluntary effort and, of course, a characteristic of any voluntary effort is that there tend to be rather sporadic movements and benefits which fade and go out altogether as the individuals move on or find that they have to devote most of their energy to other activities.

This has certainly been true in theatre in Corner Brook,where the main amateur company for many years has been the Playmakers, and they have done a lot of good work over the years, but depending on the dedication and interest of individuals who happen to be participating at any one time, the level of activity has varied greatly. Presently things are on the incline through the dynamism of a couple of individuals, and something that has breathed a lot of new life into amateur theatre in the Province overall has been the work of some professional companies.

Last Summer there was established for the first time a full-fledged professional theatre company called Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador, directed and spearheaded by Maxim Mazumdar, comprising four actors, young people from our Province.

The value of an Arts Council of the type to be created under this legislation, as I see it, is to bring together a group of individuals from different parts of the Province with different backgrounds and interests in the arts, some of whom who are practising artists themselves, others of whom appreciate the arts but hold positions with various members of our business community who are in a position to contribute financially to the development of the arts.

In this way, such a Council with such a combination of people will be able and will have a mandate to develop a co-ordinated policy on the arts and crafts in the Province to give some continuity to efforts of artists throughout the Province and to provide some consistency in the levels of funding, so that the momentum and development in the arts is not entirely dependent on the initiative 2480

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 940 GH -2 !-IS. VERGE : of t:he few individuals here and there who can find time from their other commitments . It has been interesting that a lot of the dramatic development: in arts and crafts in the Province in recent years has come about through the efforts of people who have moved to our Province from other parts of Canad a or other parts of th .e world.

I think this is so, in part, because these people , having a different perspective, can more fully appreciate some of the benefits which are inherent in our Province in the kind of heritage and tradition that I mentioned first, and also in the physical facilities that we have. So, in conclusion, I will say again chat I personally 2481

April 23, 1980 Tape No. 941 IB-1 MS. VERGE: strongly support the establishment under this legislation of an arts council. I see that it will be able to develop a comprehensive policy on the arts, that it will provide continuity to efforts. And I would hope that among the beneficiaries of this arts council will be the students in the schools who have been getting improved education programmes in the arts. They have been getting instruction in art, drawing and painting. They have been getting instruction and coaching in theatre.

Of course there are many other areas of the arts which are not being explored with our students on a comprehensive basis but are dealt with on an ad hoc basis depending on the teachers available or the school. I would just like to mention one indication of the level of activity among our high school student population in theatre and that is in the high school theatre festivals. This year the amount of participation in that festival is unprecedented. The number of schools which have taken

part in regional festivals is sixty-seven and the finalists will be performing at the provincial festival at the St. John's Arts and Culture Center on May 1st, 2nd and 3rd. And I orould hope that after the establishment of the arts council and the benefits that that will bring that these young people will be among the first beneficiaries of the arts council. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER (BUTT): The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr . Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: - I would just like to add a few words to the debate on this bill.

I understand that today may be the last chance to do so. I feel as other members of the House, that this is a good bill and perhaps something that we have long waited for and it may cure a lot of the problems that we see with the folk arts and >vi th culture, I suppose, in general in the Province. It is a very simple bill, 2482

:. April 22~ 1980 Tape No. 941 IB-2 Jo!R. HODDER: Hr. Spuker I in that it merely sets up a group who then will handle requests and funding and all that sort of thing for the va .rious groups who are in teres ted or who have talent in the Province . Mr . Speaker, I do hope that this group will work well because I think if this beco mes , if they take over the handle 1 ! suppose, take the handle fir:uly and ·•eld ::hem selves into an effectiv e group that they w'-ll. carry an a .. >!ul lot of weight in t~e Province,and if they do their job well it will certainly be to the benefit of artists in the Province . Mr .

Speaker, I would like to give an example of where we lack at the moment and where the bill can perhaps help us . We have in th .e Bay St. George region a group called the Sonaeinas. They are a vocal group from ages eleven to sixteen .

A fe w years aqo at a Rotary Festival an adjudicator from the ~ainland came do·~ and sort of flipped out when he heard them . ee just was eoeally surprised and had nothing but absolu~e and genuine praise for them and I think this has happened on a number of occasions where a group which we have here in the Province,unknown pretty well to c.'le rest of the Province, has been given high praise by people coming inco the Province to adjudicaee at Rotary ~usic ?estivals and Oram.1. Festivals and things of that ~ture . aut this group is an excellent group. The :;>roblem, Mr.

Speaker , is that a little t~hile ago they '"'ere asked to make a tape and 248 3

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 942 GH-l MR. HODDER: submit it to Prince Edward Island so that they could take

part in a music festival. What happened was a request was put out, I suppose, throughout the national newspapers and throughout national magazines asking groups such as this to have a tape made and submit the tape, and on that basis they would be chosen. Of course, I guess there were a number of groups in this Province that did that, but the Sonatinas, to give you an idea, they are run totally by one woman, Mrs. Jean House, who gives fully of her time and who is a very, very dedicated person and is a person who is well-known for her efforts in the field of music in the Province.

But, you know, to get that tape made and get it made professionally - we have a recording studio in Stephenville, and, of course, it was done cheaply because the fellow who runs the recording studio knew the problems that this group was having - they had to go down there. The cheapest it could_be made was $150. Here is a group of great talent having trouble just making the tape to submit. Now they submitted the tape and they were chosen to represent the Province along with, I believe, a school in Corner Brook, the Presentation Choir. Those two groups were chosen to represent the Province and now, Mr.

Chairman, they are having trouble raising the funds to take themselves to Prince Edward Island. Now here is an example of a group that badly needs funding, and I have spoken with the minister and passed on the request for any help that can be given, but I understand as well that the minister's office, of course, as he points out, is the worst, I suppose, group to evaluate that sort of thing.

Perhaps when this Arts Council is put into place they will be able to look at groups of this nature around the Province and be able to give them funding, so that they can travel, not only to travel so that the rest of Canada can see them but so that, perhaps, we can see them ourselves. So, you know, there, Mr. Chairman, is a case which I find to be - I find it hard to believe that a group with so much talent and a group with so much promise does not have the finances to be able to 2484

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 942 GH-2 MR. HODDER: to travel to Prince Edward Island. They are selling tickets now at the present time, they are doing this and that, and no doubt they will get th~re. But it is wrong when the effort should be going into the development of a group like this, that they have to spend their time trying to raise money. Mr.

Chairman, one other thing I would like to talk about as well is that very many of our Newfoundland bands - we have two or three which have achieved national prominence - some of our well-known Newfoundland singers achieved their prominence on the mainland, I must say, but one of the problems that they pave here is competing with mainland bands that come in from the mainland and - I am not saying that that is wrong, that we should isolate ourselves in any way, that we should not have mainland bands coming into the Province - but it does sometimes given an unfair competition to a band which has to raise tremendous amounts of money to buy its expensive equipment and everything else.

I am told that it is horrendous to have all the proper equipment that you need to compete, and then have to compete with bands that come flowing in here through the club circuit all the time. I think that sometimes we lose, that some of those groups give up because they cannot get paid as well. I think one of the problems, as well, may be that they do not have the opportunity, particularly in the smaller areas of the Province or the rural areas of the Province, they do not have the chance to develop a stage presence.

If you look at many of the bands, there is such a thing as the type of - you know, I am told that very many of them - there are places where bands can train and they can learn stage presence. I was just talking to a person who is involved with the arts and culture centres, and I know it is a very different place to be in an arts and culture centre than in a club, but that was the criticism that they had of many of the local bands, that they did not have the type of stage presence to be able to put off the same type of show. 2485

April 22, 1980 Tape 943 EC - 1 MR. J. HODDER: Perhaps', Mr. Speaker, we mi.ght have some workshops to instruct some of the bands from the Province who show pro~e to be able to - MR. STAGG: a select COIIIB\ittee to go around and visit them all . MR. J. HODDER: Yes, that would be good. I think the hon. member frequents places of that n&ture from time to time. Perhaps the hon. member would - we 1110uld not need a Select Committee, he could perhaps just from his knowledqe. Mr. Speaker , as well, we do offer, too, in our Arts and Culture centres, the opportunity for local a.rtists to take part.

We bring in from time to time, groups that travel across the Province, and I understand that it is for a very reasonable cost. A local group can take

part in the Arts and Culture Centre, can get it - I think they have worked out certain rates. The ushers a.re paid for by the Arts and Culture centre and the tickets are paid for by them and there is a split on the door, 75/25 - that sort of thing, And in most of the areu, I think, in the Province that the local presentations, the local skits and variety shows and all that sort of thing - and I am thinking outside of St.

John's because that is the area I know most about - but the local presentations, the local singers, the Seville Singers in Stephenville, the Sonatinas or whatever groups that Port au Port review - you know, I am sure that goes on all across the Province - that these have filled houses. But I wonder sometimes, Mr.

Speaker, if we should not open up our Arts and Culture Centres a little more so that we could give them the sort of a promotional package - when we have a good group here in the Province who might want to travel the Province, that we might be able to give them the type of promotional package that we often give to groups coming in from outside. Because there is no trouble, Mr. Speaker , to know when a group from outside is touring throuqh the Arts and Culture centres. But I do not knew if we have gone far enough, although I do understand now that the group, the Carol Players, the group 2486

April 22, 1980 Tape 943 EC - 2 MR. J. HODDER: from Labrador City, will be doing that sort of thing. I believe that they will be the first drama group to ever go through the circuit of the five Arts and Culture Centres. I am told that they are a very fine group and I believe this is a first. I think that it is a good thing and I would like to see more of that sort of thing happening. If we haw dr&ma. festivals where, you know, it does not even have to be the drama group that comes first, I think that all of those groups should be qiven the right to travel throuqh the Province.

I think that would create a healthy competition among the drama groups in the Province as well, Kr. Speaker, The only other thing that I: would have to say on this partieular bill 1 Kr. ~aker , is that for some time now 1 I: have been interested in the folk festivals that go on. I attended one at Gros Morne the year before last. I: did not attend the folk festival here in st. John's last year, but I had hoped that I: could be in here at that time. Where we bring all our folk singers and musicians and whatever into one place, what I: would like to see, Kr.

Speaker -, - and I: suppose when the Arts Council is set up, perhaps they will consider something like this - but what I: would like to see is a series of regional folk festivals in various regions of the Province - geoqTaphical regions of the Province. Because what we would be doing then - you 5ee, Kr. Speaker , if you talk about Port au Port and you think about folk music , you think of Emile Benoit, and there is no doubt that Emile Benoit is perhaps better known outside the Province than be is in.

He went to a folk festival in New Hampshire the year before last and this was a folk festival with people from all over the world, and the cover of the brochure they passed out to those nundreds of thousands of people who attended that particular folk festival, had his picture on it. And he has travelled from B.C. - he iii totally on the go all the time, usually for honorariums, but he does not mind that. And sometimes he has played at .loc:_al. clubs !'!.~~ in St. John's. He is a good lllUSician. MR. MORGAN: Get Rufus Guinc:hard. MR. J. HODDER: No, but I: am just thinking of my own district now.

I know Rufus as well - it is probably the same sort of thing. 2487

April 22, 1980 Tape 943 EC - 3 MR. J. HODDER: But the point I am trying to make is that: we_:- .11ot only am I trying to tell everybody th&t Port au Port probably has more folk singers and step dancers than any other part of the Province - AN HON. MEMBER: They have more fiddlers, MR. J. HODDER: and Rlre fiddlers -~d _&c~r~cin payers.

But, Mr. speaker , what I would like to see - you know, even though Elili.le Benoit, through his own great skill and talent, is well-known, there are so many who have just as much talent or almost as much talent, or in other types of music h&ve talent as well but they do not get a chAnce to compete. Now, in our part of the area - and I look at the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) there -we have the clubs there.

In the afternoons everybody brings along - if you go down to Stan's Place in Stephenville or you go to the Piccadilly Club in Piccadilly on a Sunday afternoon, everybody from all over the region, all sorts of people, come along with their guitars and their fiddles and their s~ns and whatever you can think of, and they play all afternoon. AN HON. MEMBER: No charge. MR. J. HODDER: No charge, people just come in to listen to them. MR. F. STAGG: Extemporaneously. MR. J. HODDER: Extemporaneously, yes, that is a good word. But, Mr.

Speaker , I feel that a series of regional - and I have considered myself and have talked to some people and the thing has slipped a little bit now, of having a folk festival in that particular area in the Province. I would like to see a series of regional folk festivals, perhaps culminating in a large folk festival each year somewhere in the Province - somewhere like Gros Marne, somewhere where you have a lot of land and all sorts of things and you have the proper electrical hookups and all that sort of thing.

And I think that we perhaps would find an awful lot of musicians and actors and people who can do all sorts of things that we would not know about. 2488

April 22, 1980 Tape 943 EC- 4 MR. J. HODDER: I attended in the C:CDI!lunity of Mainl;lnd, whicb. you heerd .- - Mainland is known for its bad roads , but it is known for: somethinq else as well, anc1 I did not reAlize it until last year. This c:oammi.ty, a very small c0111111unity, does not have a COIIIINility centre. Well, 1bl COIIIIIl1lni. ty centre is :not much biqqer than where Mr. Speaker sits there, it is just a. little sm.all - it was a.n old chapel, I think, 2489

April 22, 1980 MR. J. HODDER: since that ana - MR. STAGG: MR. J. HODDER: Tape No. 944 SD - 1 and the town has tripled in size It was big enough for a Tory meeting. Well, yes, that is right. You could not have a Liberal meeting there because it would certainly be too small for a Liberal meeting but the Tories could very well, in Mainland 1 have a meeting in that place.

But nevertheless this community never before had a party as a community and apparently the French group there got hold of some funds and they decided that they were going to have a party - a community party - first time ever in the history of the community which goes back to the days when the French were here on Red Island. So I attended and I suppose for these last 200 years or whatever people have been getting together and they have parties and they have them in their homes and I found the greatest bunch of step dancers I have ever seen in my life. I have never seen anything like it, every single one of them.

I could not believe it. I mean, if you brought in Steps to Stardom­ I am telling you I have never seen anything-and nobody ever knew, nobody ever talked about the people from Mainland and the way that they can step dance.And they have their own way of doing it. MR. STAGG: MR. J. HODDER: Did the hon. member step dance? Oh, yes, the hon. member step danced too and he stayed there until about somewhere around four o'clock in the morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. J. HODDER: Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, these were some of the things I wanted to bring up,that we should make use of our Arts and Culture Centres, we should l!lake sure that they are used by our own local groups .more, we should help groups that show promise and talent like the Sonatinas who I hope the minister will- seeing that they are just about in his district, and they are made up of some people from my district and his district 1perhaps, that they will be funded,hopefully, if they have problems getting to Prince Edward Island. And I would like to see a greater emphasis put on 2490

... April 22, 1980 Tape No. 944 S!l - 2 MR. J. HODDER: searching for talent and musicians. and I feel that there is an awful lot of unfound talent in the Province and I would like to see a series of regional folk festivals throughout the Province culminating in a large folk festival somewhere in the Province in a suitable location each year 'which would be billed not only because every other province does this, you know- MR. NEARY: And no (inaudible) I MR. J. HODDER: Oh, certainly not. What next am I going to hear, Mr. Speaker? Did you hear that, Mr. Speaker?

But not only should the folk festival be an all Newfoundland thing; that last folk festival,once we have had our regional folk festivals each Summer, that last folk festival should be advertised far and wide right throughout the width and breadth of Canada and the United States, in a proper location in the Province 1 and then we can show the rest of the country and show the rest of the world what talent we have here. I Those are just the few words that I had to say, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that they will not fall on deaf ears. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. W. HOOSE : Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words on this bill, "An Act Respecting The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador Arts Council." Of course, I do not think I have heard · any adverse reaction . to the bill. I have listened in the last two or three day it was on. As a matter of fact, I heard a lot of good speechs, very, very good ones, and the great thing I saw come out of it was the development of the disco cousins, the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) and the member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary), who had members, of course,of their districts co~etin~ for a Believe !t Or Not competition.

And they danced - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) were dancing. MR. W. HOOSE : - and they were dancing togetheT 2491

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 944 SD - 3 MR. W. HOUSE: That. is why I called you the disco cousins. And we did hear, of course, from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson) and the Premier, their support for this particular bill and, of course, everybody has spoken in the same vein.And I think a bill of this nature, which is going to promote the culture and the arts in Newfoundland,can do something that I have wanted to see done for a long time. As an educator, I thought that was one of the greatest weaknesses we had in the Province.

The traditions of Newfoundland­ and I have not travelled in a lot of places.but I have been in the Maritimes, I have been on the Atlantic Seaboard and I find, of course, that we have a lot more or we used to have,I do not know if we have got it now or not, a lot more creativity. There seems to be a lot more creativity and,I suppose,part of it was due to our isolation and we had to make our own sport and fun as it were.

You can pick up the Peacock booR of songs, there are three volumes of it, and a lot of them are-Newfoundland songs.( Of course, a lot ·~re Maritime songs also.And that one that was put out by GeraldS. Doyle a few years ago, again , as somebody mentioned, that that was one of the things that did a lot for the culture of Newfoundland. And it seemed to me, of course, as I was in schools and teaching,that all of this was not getting through to our young people. I have been sitting down night after night watching this Reach For ~e Top 2492

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 945 IB-1 MR. HOUSE: programme and they can do pretty well on physics and chemistry and all this kind of thing but when it comes to the Newfoundland questions I can outstrip them anytime. And it seems to me that there is not - I cannot do it in physics and chemistry by any stretch of the imagination - but when it comes to the Newfoundlandia they do not seem to know too much about it,which shows, I think,an appalling lack in our school literature. OP.e of the - MR. NEARY: Do you know there are more (inaudible) in Newfoundland per capita than there are (inaudible)? MR.

HOUSE: Yes 1 I do and we call it Easy Off. That is the kind of hair dressing that I use, Easy Off. Yes, I know that and we have a lot of other categories of people too in the Province that I would like to mention. But one of the things I think if you look back at the history of the Province and look at their writings and their songs - I often wondered why the song, "I'se The B'y" was so prominent. And,of course,the whole point of it is it just exhibits the ~onfidence that the Newfoundlander had in himself, there is nobody else like him.

That is one of the great things that we - and the people seem to think that we think we are inferior. I always say that Newfoundlanders by their songs and by their stories and their way of life they live never considered themselves inferior 1they always considered themselves to be, I think, a little bit superior and their sense of humor shows that. MR. STAGG: T~ere are no flies on them. MR. HOUSE: There are no flies on them, that is correct. But the Newfoundlander was kind of shy, so he was a bit humble but never inferior. And all our traditions have shown us to be that kind of people, humble but not inferior.

And a lot of people have taken this humility tP~t we have for inferiority and that is wrong. I have looked at these songs like, "We'll Rant And We'll Roar Like True Newfoundlanders", and what could be more determined or "I'se The B'y", you know, there is nobody else like me. 2493

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 945 IB-2 AN HON. MEMBER: Sing us one. MR. HOUSE: These are things - I can sing these too if you wantbut I am not going to do it today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! By leave! MR. HOUSE: "Harbour Le Cou" , and some of the others. MR. STAGG: He knows the words. MR. HOUSE: I know the words. I know the songs. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the other things. I was interested in listening to the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) because we were talking about a stretch of the coast and he was talking about the culture and the losses in the Province.

But one thing, you can go in any part of the Maritimes, any part of Maine and you can pick up a Maine dialect, or a Nova Scotia way of life but you can go in almost every community in Newfoundland and find that they have different traditions. I remember one time, and the member for St. Barbe will remember this because we used to have American people .come into a place called Portland Creek. I used to work there.

And they said to me one time, "How is it that you can take somebody from Daniel's Harbour and somebody from Portland Creek and they have a completely different dialect and they are living five miles apart?". And I had not recognized it but it is true. And you can go to practically every community in the Province and you will find this. And there are a lot of, as I say, traditions, a lot of stories that are flavoured by, of course, the Newfoundland dialect that we are rapidly losing. I just want to mention, you know- and I mentioned these two songs and the kind of people, of course, who have gained prominence.

You have to mention people like Art Scamell, whose songs have gained national prominence. I think we can look at some of the others too - MR. STAGG: E.J. Pratt. MR. HOUSE: E.J. Pratt. Well, of course, E.J. Pratt was, I guess, the greatest poet laureate that ever Canada had . I am sure 2494

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 945 lB-3 !4.~. liOCSE: thac I never read any ?Qetry emanating from any other ?Qe1: so great: as ~~t coming from E.J. Pratt. But che member for Port au ?ort (:-lr. Sodder) mencioned the people from that particular area and I have to say that you are exaccly right, your are right on. I never saw as ma."'ly fiddlers, that kind of fiddler in my life as I saw from t.luit particular area.

I used to work in the woods one time and the fellows that: came in from that particular area, from around Black Duck, working in the woods out there, if they did not have a violin I • I well, they ·..;ould make one. They would get what the;- called the old ai-Plane can and make a fiddle and play a tune on it . And just about everybody could do it. And I thought this was a tremendous talent, of coarse, one that I was never, ever able to emulate .

But there is one person tba c never got mentioned yet in all of this and chis is chis !ellow by the name of Rufus ~ho was just about eighty years old who has a fan club no~ . !!ufus Guinchard has a fan club, or had a fan c1ub 1 in. Alberta and they had t-shirts made, I think, and they were booscinq ehese. I saw them on national eelevision ~~ere one night and I believe the ~icing that they had across it was, "Rufus Is No . lst"·And,of course , he is eruly a legend in his own eime,with all due respects to Emile, but Rufus was always a great fiddler but he was late 2~95

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 946 MR. HOUSE: getting into the national scene, record. I just want to put that in the GH-1 Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the purposes of this bill and the purpose of the act is to establish a Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council to foster and promote the study, enjoyment and the production of works in the arts of the Province and to encourage the preservation and the public awareness of cultural heritage. That seems to me to be a great objective, a great objective for any literary course, literature course, in any of our schools in the Province.

I am sure that if it is not already written in the aims and objectives of education, that part of it should be there because there are so many things that are lacking. One of the things that I always thought when I was Minister of Education and when I was an educator is that we seem to be able to do everything else but the kind of thing that means so much to people. I think what it was, it was taken for granted that we knew all these things, we knew all about our past, but that was not the fact.

I think history is going to bear us out, that we are going to forget a lot about our culture if we do not make a concerted effort by this means to revive it and to relive it. I remember a few years ago I was, as a superintendent and as a principal of a school, trying to beef up what I called our industrial arts program. We were trying to see what peculiar things to Newfoundland that we were not doing that we could be doing. For instance, somebody mentioned a filling of snowshoes, and I advertised for a teacher for industrial arts and I wanted a person who was able to do that kind of thing.

I never ever got a response. Somebody in Labrador, when I was up in Nain speaking at a conference up there, said, "You know, we got our school here but one of the things - there is hardly an Innuit person, a young person, who knows how to make a snow house, which is a skill". It is unfortunate that these things were not fostered in our schools, but I think with this and with an emphasis by government in funding, we will get these kinds of things 2496

April 22, 1980 Tape No. 946 GH-2 MR. HOUSE: revived and our schools can do what they were meant to do in part, and that is promote the culture in which they exist. Mr. Speaker, you know, I am one of these kinds of persons who find it a little bit difficult to funnel out $700 or $800 for a painting. But we have some of the greatest artists in the Province, too, and you look at the Blackwood paintings, I cannot afford them but they are very unique paintings. He has been a credit to this Province. MR. THOMS: You need another raise. MR. HOUSE: We need another raise, okay.

We have the Pratts, a family of man and wife, and then Sheppards, again another man and wife team, and, of course, I must say, in my own district - perhaps you have not heard of a very great artist in that district by the name of Roberta Green who has had displays of art in various parts of the Province. So we do not have a shortage of any kind of people, artists, and I am sure that this bill is going to seek out more and more as time goes on.

I did not mention - one precaution that I would suggest that we would make in this respect is that I do not think everything we do and say should be promoted as art, because I believe we can go overboard with ~~at, but there are some excellent writings and writers in this Province. Of course, we have mentioned them before and I do not want to reiterate, the Horwoods is a good case in point. AN HON. MEMBER: Smallwood. MR.

HOUSE: Well, I would suggest that is another thing that we want in this Province, is somebody to wrir.e an authentic history of this Province and make sure, because I do not think there is one - if you look back in our history, if you go back, you will see I am talking about a full history. There have been some good parts written, no doubt, but a full history of the Province? I think Prowse was the last one that did a comprehensive thing, and I