role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

February 25, 1997

36th Parliament, 1st Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L168 - Tue 25 Feb 1997 / Mar 25 Fév 1997

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TRUCKING SAFETY

EDUCATION LEGISLATION / LÉGISLATION SUR L'ÉDUCATION

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

JUSTICE SYSTEM

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

FAMILY LITERACY WEEK

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

CARDIAC SURGERY

SPECIAL OLYMPICS

VISITORS

COURT RULING

ORAL QUESTIONS

COURT RULING

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING / RESTRUCTURATION DES HÔPITAUX

COURT RULING

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

FRENCH-LANGUAGE HOSPITAL SERVICES

COMMUNITY CARE

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

FIRE SAFETY

WOMEN'S ISSUES

FRENCH-LANGUAGE HOSPITAL SERVICES

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

COURT RULING

ORDER AND DECORUM IN CHAMBER

PETITIONS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

PRINCE EDWARD HEIGHTS

BIBLIOTHÈQUES PUBLIQUES

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

HOSPITAL FINANCING

FIRE SAFETY

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

FIRE SAFETY

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

FIRE SAFETY

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HOUSE SITTINGS

The House met at 1333.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TRUCKING SAFETY

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-Walkerville): Today we're reminded about the difference between substantive public policy and bluster. Last week, with much fanfare, the Minister of Transportation announced long-overdue changes to highway safety; that is, dealing with the issue of unsafe truck wheels.

We, the opposition, said that we would help the government pass this bill as quickly as possible. We sat down and agreed that this amendment, even though it doesn't deal with the whole question, is important enough that it ought to be front and centre in this Legislature and on the government's agenda. The minister, with great fanfare, said how important this is for the government, how important it is for road safety in Ontario and how urgent it is to move as quickly as possible.

Lo and behold, what happens? Nothing. Press conference, flyers, publicity, bill introduced and the government says it won't bring the bill up for debate or a vote. Lots of glitz, lots of bluster, but where's the beef? No substance.

We say to the government today: Put aside your legislation to raise property taxes, put aside your desire to close hospitals and bring forward the truck safety bill today. Let's spend a Legislative day on it and --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you.

EDUCATION LEGISLATION / LÉGISLATION SUR L'ÉDUCATION

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): There are many citizens across the riding of Cochrane South who are truly worried about where this government is going with public education. They worry because they know how important education is for their children and for the wellbeing of their community itself.

With this in mind, there's a group that's come together in the community of Timmins called Citizens for the Preservation of Public Education. Why have they come together? Because the government has decided, with this legislative committee, that they will not be coming to Cochrane South or the city of Timmins to listen to what people have to say about Bill 104.

Citizens in our community have come together with me to form this committee so that people in our community can have their say, express their views and their concerns in regard to Bill 104, and then we will go and present to the legislative committee in Sudbury and let people know what we think about Bill 104. I think it's unacceptable in a democracy that a government undergoes a massive change such as it has with education and doesn't give people a right to have a say.

Il y a beaucoup de personnes dans nos communautés de Cochrane-Sud et Timmins qui ont vraiment peur pour où s'en va le gouvernement avec la législation, la Loi 104. Cette loi va changer fondamentalement l'éducation dans notre province, et le gouvernement n'a pas pris le temps pour consulter le monde à Cochrane-Sud.

Avec ça dans l'idée, un comité va être mis en place appelé les Citoyens pour la préservation de l'éducation publique qui va faire les audiences publiques propres, et nous, les citoyens de Timmins, allons à Sudbury pour présenter de la part de tous ces citoyens ce qu'on pense de la Loi 104.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): I rise today to outline what is clearly a waste of taxpayers' money, dollars, being staged by those opposed to our government's proposed legislation for a unified Toronto.

First of all, in my riding the mayor of Etobicoke has stated that a phone poll to gauge public opinion is a waste of money. I am not alone in my belief that taxpayers' money is being wasted by municipal governments fighting amalgamation. A letter to the editor of a community newspaper in my riding stated: "Fewer politicians please. And let's start with those on our own council who choose to waste more of our money."

Our government believes a unified Toronto would mean an enhanced lifestyle and greater benefits. An Etobicoke business consultant yesterday told public hearings on amalgamation proposals that he witnessed unification at first hand several years ago in Winnipeg. He noted how little things change. Metro was called a "seamless and integrated whole" and it was suggested it should be governed that way. It's encouraging to see that when the facts are presented fairly, the idea of one Toronto can be accepted by the general public.

This happened yesterday during a panel show I participated in for a Toronto radio station. By the end of the program, the show's host acknowledged the tide had turned, with a greater number supporting one Toronto --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you.

JUSTICE SYSTEM

Ms Annamarie Castrilli (Downsview): Yesterday the sentence was rendered in the case of Dr Arvo Alfred, a doctor found guilty of sexual or indecent assault. The sentence imposed yesterday has sparked serious concerns. Dr Alfred was sentenced to nine months in jail, 240 hours of community service and two years less a day under house arrest, this despite the fact that he assaulted 10 of his former patients, nine females and one male. The prosecution had asked for 10 to 12 years.

This government has repeatedly spoken of its commitment to law and order and victims' rights. Now is the time to prove it. The victims in this awful case are outraged. The consequences of what has been done to them will remain with them for a lifetime. I urge the Attorney General to immediately consider the following: first, launching an appeal in this matter, and second, instituting a review of sentencing guidelines. Respect for victims' rights, if it is to mean anything, requires nothing less.

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): My statement today is about education and the millions of dollars in cuts to education. As we all know, the Fewer School Boards Act affects every student, citizen, parent and school board in Ontario. As indicated in a report produced by the Ontario Public School Boards' Association, this proposed legislation has even more profound consequences for the local governments in northern Ontario.

This government speaks of offering equal education opportunity for all students in the province. Does this same principle not extend to all citizens? Shouldn't a citizen in northern Ontario have access to a locally elected education representative regardless of where they live? Given the size of the jurisdictions -- some as large as France -- and the climate, access to locally elected school boards will be removed for many. Concerned parents and taxpayers will be faced with phoning long distance to try and access information about their local schools. Decisions affecting the local community will no longer be made by community leaders.

You are rushing to push forward this anti-democratic legislation, driven by your agenda to take full control of our education system so you can make further cuts down the road. Clearly this government is only interested in cuts to classroom education, which is different from what it promised during the election campaign, and taking billions of dollars out of education like the federal Liberals did in Ottawa over the last three and a half years.

FAMILY LITERACY WEEK

Mrs Julia Munro (Durham-York): The region of Durham has declared February 22 to March 1 as Family Literacy Week. The Literacy Network of Durham Region stresses that we all should be dedicated to tackling Ontario's literacy problem because we cannot afford not to. Roughly two adults in every five lack the literacy skills needed to handle successfully common everyday literacy tasks.

The literacy problem is a family problem, because the link between child and parent literacy has to do with the role parents play in helping their children learn to read. There is a strong connection between low literacy levels and poor health, higher-than-average rates of unemployment, low income, poor academic achievement by their children, poor social integration, low self-esteem and above-average rates of incarceration.

Literacy problems tend to be passed from one generation to the next. One of the best ways to support a child's learning is to ensure that his or her parents have opportunities to improve their own literacy skills if required. That's why all of us should be supporting organizations like the Literacy Network of Durham Region.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Today I have more postcards to deliver to the Minister of Health. The postcards say, "Help save our health care." They also show the various facts that exist in Windsor-Essex county as to the severe underfunding of health costs in our area. May I tell you that if the plans go forward, the west side of the county will have no emergency service. This government has refused to reinvest funding to build up services in other areas of the county. We simply are losing service.

We found it very interesting that today we read, "Peterborough Hospitals Open Beds After Death." Thanks to Dalton McGuinty bringing this issue into the House, the hospital in Peterborough has reinstated beds. Is this what we have to do to make the Conservative government, the Harris government, understand that the cuts are hurting people?

To the Minister of Health, this is just the beginning. There are many more of them coming, and I want to thank the people -- Earle Dunham, Mary Kroskie, Walter Kroskie -- who really care about health care in Essex county. I say to the Minister of Health, you must listen. Don't wait for people to die, as was the case in Peterborough, before you turn your attention to Windsor-Essex county. We won't stand for it. The people won't stand for it.

CARDIAC SURGERY

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I rise to raise a critical situation for the residents of Algoma district and Sault Ste Marie with regard to the long waiting list for cardiac surgery at Sudbury Memorial Hospital. Because of the cap on surgical cases, there is a backlog of over 250. By simple mathematics, it will take some five years to elapse before we can again reach a satisfactory waiting period for cardiac cases in our area. That of course assumes that the cardiac waiting list will not continue to increase as it has over the past year.

The head of cardiac services in Sault Ste Marie, Dr Gould, has indicated that three patients have died in Sault Ste Marie as the result of the long waiting list during the last two weeks. Two of these cases will not appear in the normal statistics because they both died during cardiac surgery. As a result of their long wait, their hearts had deteriorated so severely that they were too weak to sustain themselves through the operation

Another patient was so frightened of being on such a long waiting list that he sold his home in order to finance his surgery in the United States. This is exactly the type of situation that our health care system is supposed to prevent. Patients are being reduced to financial ruin because of the cost of obtaining health care because of this long waiting --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you, member.

SPECIAL OLYMPICS

Mr Tim Hudak (Niagara South): I rise today in the House, as other members have recently done, to congratulate the over 2,000 athletes from over 80 countries who travelled to Toronto and Collingwood earlier this month to participate in the 1997 Special Olympics World Winter Games. However, I would particularly like to recognize the extraordinary achievements of some residents from my very own riding.

About two weeks ago, among great fanfare and fire engine sirens, Fort Erie welcomed home its champions, the Fort Erie Phantoms floor hockey team, which captured the silver medal at this year's games. In fact, in the championship game the Phantoms narrowly missed capturing the gold; they lost 4-3 in triple overtime to the dreaded Team Russia.

The Phantoms are the team that made good, a group of players who rose up from small-town Ontario to face off against the world's best at the Special Olympics.

It was certainly my dream growing up, playing hockey on Lindberg Drive, to one day face the Russians in international competition. The Phantoms have fulfilled that shared child's dream by bringing back the medals to their home town, Fort Erie.

Special congratulations also are in order to Melissa Brooks and Maryanne Bland. Melissa captured the gold medal and Maryanne the silver in the individual skills competition. The team also is under the able management of Marlene Davies and the Hills. My congratulations to the great coaches. Remember: No trades in the off season.

I trust I speak for all members of the assembly when I look in the Speaker's gallery today and offer my greatest congratulations to these skilled and courageous athletes. Congratulations.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I'll follow the member for Niagara South. We have a special group of athletes today that I will introduce. I'd like to inform the members of the Legislative Assembly that in the Speaker's gallery today we have the Fort Erie Phantoms, winners of the silver medal in floor hockey at the Special Olympics World Winter Games. Please join me in welcoming them. Welcome.

COURT RULING

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: As you know, earlier this year I asked you to rule on a pamphlet distributed by the Minister of Municipal Affairs in regard to Bill 103. Your ruling was that there was a prima facie case for contempt.

I would like to bring to your attention a connection to that same bill as it relates to the Ontario Court of Justice, which ruled today that the appointed trustees in Bill 103 are to be found to be, as Justice Brennan said today, "I conclude that the orders in council of December 18, 1996, were made without authority and are of no legal effect. The appointments are therefore void. The appointees' actions have no legal effect until they are appointed pursuant to a statute in force."

As you know, with the pamphlet the concern I had was that the pamphlet assumed that the legislation was a done deal, that there would be no attention to the processes of the House in debating and amending this bill. I find that the trustees are very similar in approach in terms of trying to establish the fact that on the day the bill was introduced, December 17, the trustees had power to act as of the day the bill was introduced.

I think the court ruling reaffirms our contention that this contravenes the basic processes and respect for the parliamentary process. In fact, in one of the affidavits filed before Justice Brennan, the contention of one of the trustees, Ms Valerie A. Gibbons, was that basically under Bill 103 she had "full powers to act under the proposed legislation because it is implicit in our form of majority government that legislation introduced by the government will pass." So these trustees went into this designation with the assumption from the minister and Bill 103 that the bill would pass; therefore she had power.

The court today ruled that this is wrong, that you can't assume to give these people power unless the bill is passed.

As you know, former Speaker Fraser ruled, and you referred to this in your ruling, that, "A contempt may be

an act or an omission; it does not have to actually obstruct or impede the House or a member; it merely has to have the tendency to produce such results. Matters ranging from minor breaches of decorum to grave attacks against the authority of Parliament may be considered as contempt."

I'm going to forward a copy of Justice Brennan's ruling to you for your perusal, Mr Speaker -- I have one here -- so that when you deliberate, you can refer to this ruling. There are a number of interesting sections. The interesting thing too, if you look at the ruling -- the government continues to basically find ways of circumventing the due processes of this Legislature.

One of their arguments before the court was that they were referring to the Lieutenant Governor's exercise of royal prerogative, but the justice was clear in rejecting it, saying, "I am impelled to the finding that the royal prerogative was not in the contemplation of the Lieutenant Governor in Council at the time these orders in council were made."

In other words, they're trying to find a loophole. Their intent was very clear basically to make these trustees effective the day the bill was introduced, and these trustees have been functioning right across Metro since December 17. They have been meeting with municipal councillors, they have been meeting with staff; they are still meeting and they are still working.

In fact, during the hearings I asked for the trustees to come before the committee and the assistant deputy minister of municipal affairs said, "They can't come before the committee on Bill 103 because the trustees are being faced with a legal challenge." I said, "If they are faced with a legal challenge, why are they still functioning as trustees?" which she admitted they were. So I said, "If they're still functioning, if the excuse is the legal challenge, therefore they should stop functioning as trustees," but they continue to function, again based on something that was introduced in the House, not in legislation that was passed.

Therefore I ask you, Mr Speaker, to take a close look at the findings of Justice Brennan. You will see that there's a clear case for contempt here. These trustees are even worse than the pamphlet, because not only was the pamphlet at your door the day the bill was introduced, but these trustees were empowered to --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Member for Oakwood, I think I understand the point you're making. I understand what you're saying. Allow me to review the comments you made and report back.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): Point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: The same point?

Mr Silipo: A similar point, Speaker, but I want to make a separate request of you.

You will recall that a few weeks ago I raised a specific point of privilege right on this point in suggesting to you that you find a breach of privilege or a contempt of the House in the actions of the government in proceeding to have these trustees act without the authority of the legislation because the legislation has not been passed. You at that time essentially, I think, ruled that there was no breach that you saw of the procedures but that there may be a legal issue.

Obviously, as we now know, the legal issue has indeed been resolved, at least at this stage, to the effect that the government's actions have been found to be wrong, to be in contravention of the law. The government's actions have been found to be without authority and the appointments have been struck down and have been rendered null and void.

I think, Speaker, at this point there are at the very least a couple of things that should be taking place. The first is that I would ask that you ensure -- and I ask this specifically of you, Speaker, because again, as members of this Parliament, we have no recourse other than through you to ensure that that court order is carried out as it applies to the proceedings of the House, not as it applies to anything extraneous to here, but as it applies to the proceedings of this House, and that is to ensure that any actions that have been taken by the trustees are seen to be rendered null and void.

Secondly, Speaker, this has implications not just for the provisions of the trustees under Bill 103, but I believe has implications for the provisions at least in Bill 104, because there too there have been at least comparable positions appointed, two trustees; they're called commissioners there. I believe there are implications as well for whatever actions those two individuals may have taken to date, because the legislation under Bill 104, as you know, is pretty much in the same process of the Parliament as is 103.

Thirdly, Speaker, I would ask that through you we get some indication from the Minister of Municipal Affairs or indeed the acting Premier, given, as I say, that this court decision has repercussions not just with respect to Bill 103 but also with respect to Bill 104, as to what actions the government is intending to take. I would have expected that the minister would have come in today and made a statement on this very important development.

I believe that you called for ministers' statements. I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear any minister standing up. I know that you can't force ministers to make statements, but I would ask through your office and through your chair to request, if the Minister of Municipal Affairs or if the acting Premier is prepared to make a statement on this issue, certainly I believe on this side of the House we would be prepared to give unanimous consent for that to happen.

The Speaker: I will take your comments as well and review them when ruling on the member for Oakwood's point of -- you said point of order?

Mr Colle: Point of privilege.

The Speaker: Point of privilege.

Point of order? Same point? Different point. The member for Algoma.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I would ask for the unanimous consent of the assembly to revert to ministers' statements so that we can have a statement from the ministry with regard to this court ruling.

The Speaker: The member for Algoma is seeking unanimous consent to revert to ministers' statements for the following reasons --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Agreed?

Interjections.

Mr Silipo: You are not going to say anything, Al? Why do we have to ask you a question? This is the most momentous development on this day.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): Tell us what you are going to do.

The Speaker: Order. Members for Beaches-Woodbine and Dovercourt, please come to order. I have now given you my undertaking. I'll report back on both the point of privilege of the member for Oakwood and the member for Dovercourt's point of order.

There being no further points of order or privilege, it's time for oral questions.

ORAL QUESTIONS

COURT RULING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. This morning, as was just discussed, the Ontario Court of Justice ruled that your appointment of megacity trustees was without authority, of no legal effect, and void. In effect, the judge who ruled on this matter has told us that those trustees who are out there today purporting to act on the basis of some legislative authority have no such authority of any kind.

For months now, Minister, we have been warning you that your megacity Bill 103 process tramples on basic democratic principles. Today a judge ruled that the process you're using to implement your law is illegal. Minister, you would not listen to us. Will you now listen to a judge and withdraw this bill?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): We understand the court has made a decision and we respect that decision. I can say that the ruling doesn't surprise me, because we have stated on numerous occasions, both in this House and publicly, that the trustees do not have any jurisdiction until such time as the legislation is passed. We've made that abundantly clear on many occasions.

Notwithstanding the decision of the judge, what we were doing was giving municipalities an opportunity to be prepared, should the legislation pass, so they would be able to deal with the proposed legislation in an appropriate manner. We have continuously said that the trustees did not have any legal jurisdiction until such time as the legislation passes.

Mr McGuinty: What this is is another example of contempt shown by this minister either for us as legislators of this House or the public. This is the very same minister who was found to have been in contempt of this Legislature, the same minister who said he would ignore the voice of the people when they speak by way of referenda and the same minister who introduced Bill 26.

In ruling against you, Minister, the judge said your actions were "contrary to the responsible actions of government." That is a very, very severe criticism of government. In effect, the judge was saying that your actions were in keeping with the actions of an irresponsible government.

I'm asking you now to do the responsible thing: Will you withdraw this bill, fully one third of which contains the now illegal provisions, and start afresh?

Hon Mr Leach: I first want to correct the record again. The Leader of the Opposition continues to say we were found in contempt and he knows that not to be correct. If anybody should be found in contempt, it's people who continue to make those arguments.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. Minister?

Hon Mr Leach: When it goes back to the legislation, to Bill 103, there is nothing in that legislation that the judge found to be inappropriate. What he has said is that the orders in council should not have been processed until such time as the legislation was passed. I don't disagree with that. I think that's an appropriate ruling.

We have always said that the trustees don't have any authority until such time as the legislation passes. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat that, but that's the case.

Mr McGuinty: Have the decency to admit that you've made a mistake. You've had a judge of the Ontario Court of Justice who has found that you have made a mistake. At least stand up there and tell us that you've made the mistake. Don't tell us that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He also said, "...the will of the executive is being imposed before waiting for the legislative events to unfold." That's what the judge said. I didn't say that. Minister, you were caught. Once again you tried to subvert the power of the Legislature and you got caught, just like in the case of Bill 26. You plowed ahead when everybody said that what you were doing was wrong. This is but another example. I wish it was an exception, but it is but another example of this government trying to do an end run around this Legislature.

Minister, what you did was anti-democratic. This ruling calls your entire megacity bill into question. I'll ask you one more time: Will you not do the right thing and withdraw it?

Hon Mr Leach: To repeat: What the judge, in my view, has ruled is that the orders in council should not have been processed until such time as the legislation is passed. We have repeatedly said -- and I've said it in this House; it's recorded in Hansard -- that the trustees do not have any jurisdiction until such time as the legislation is passed, and we continue to say that. What we were --

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): Oh no, you didn't say that. You are saying that now. You didn't say it before. Tell the truth.

The Speaker: Member for Oakwood, I ask you to withdraw that comment.

Mr Colle: On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: I want you to withdraw that comment, please, member for Oakwood.

Mr Colle: I withdraw my comment.

The Speaker: Minister?

Hon Mr Leach: What we were attempting to do was select the individuals that we felt were appropriate to be trustees so that they would be in place when the legislation was passed, in order that municipalities would have an opportunity to see what the rules of the game would be prior to the legislation being passed, but we have said repeatedly that the legislation has to be in place before they have any power.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING / RESTRUCTURATION DES HÔPITAUX

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My next question is for the Minister of Health. Yesterday, your hospital-closing gang rode into Ottawa-Carleton, ransacked and destroyed three hospitals and rode away with $90 million of Ottawa-Carleton's health care dollars. The Riverside Hospital, the Salvation Army's Grace Hospital and the Montfort Hospital are among the most efficient and important community hospitals in the province.

Let me tell you why, and I'm going to start with the Riverside Hospital. This hospital has been recognized -- the minister will know this -- by the Canadian Council on Health Services Accreditation as one of the most cost-efficient and effective hospitals in the country. In fact, only 23 hospitals out of 1,800 have ever received this recognition. The Riverside was one of them. The people there have worked valiantly to get their costs down. How does this minister reward them? By giving them a death sentence. Why are you closing one of the most efficiently run hospitals in Ontario, the Riverside Hospital?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The commission has made interim findings, recommendations for Ottawa-Carleton and a renewed hospital system for Ottawa-Carleton, and all members of the public and all members of this House have the opportunity over the next 30 days to make comment to the commission.

The honourable member talks about hospital accreditation, and yes, many hospitals have received a top rating, but it wasn't the building that received that rating. It was the people, the talented people who provide those services.

The thrust behind the commission's work and the health care policy of the government is to drive every dollar to front-line services to make sure those people are merged into other buildings so that they can continue to provide the top-quality service. At the end of the day, we want more nurses, more services and modern hospitals with new technology to provide for the needs of the people of Ontario and Ottawa-Carleton.

Mr McGuinty: Move on to the Grace Hospital. The Grace Hospital is run by the Salvation Army. The Grace specializes in two things and two things only, delivering babies and eye surgery, and it does both of those exceptionally well. Because it has specialized, it has high volumes and very low costs. The Salvation Army's Grace Hospital can provide sight-saving cataract surgery cheaper than just about any other hospital in the province. It may be small, but it is very, very efficient. It does what it does very well and at low cost. If you are so intent on finding savings, why is it that you are closing one of the best savers in the province when it comes to a hospital?

Hon Mr Wilson: The intent is to have a better hospital system. The amount of money that the government has put back into the health care system far exceeds anything we've seen in savings and, at the rate we're going, will probably far exceed anything we see in savings after the three- to four-year period of hospital restructuring. It isn't about savings; it's about making the system better. Time and time again, people raise concerns about problems in our hospitals today, and they make the case that we cannot sustain the current system, that the current system has problems and that we need to improve the system.

That will be done by, yes, having fewer buildings, but having more services in the buildings that remain.

Seven hundred beds were closed in Ottawa-Carleton during the time that government was in office and the previous NDP government was in office. That's the equivalent of three mid-sized hospitals. All of the administration is still there; all of the maintenance, heat and hydro is still there. Those dollars need to be freed up and spent on patient services so that we have modern hospitals and more services for the people who need them.

Montfort n'est pas un grand hôpital mais c'est un hôpital extrêmement important. Il est clair que votre commission n'a pas compris son importance pour notre communauté. Monsieur le Ministre, pourquoi fermez-vous le seul hôpital entièrement bilingue de l'Ontario ? Pourquoi fermez-vous le seul hôpital de la communauté franco-ontarienne ?

Hon Mr Wilson: The Health Services Restructuring Commission was very concerned and I think took great pains to ensure that French-language services will continue to be available to the francophone community in Ottawa-Carleton. The honourable member knows that the Ottawa General Hospital right now is the designated French-language hospital to provide those services.

The French Language Services Act remains in place. Parts of the heart institute are designated right now and also parts of CHEO. The commission made it clear that it has ordered that a plan for French-language services be in place in the very near future to ensure that access to those services is maintained in the restructured system.

With respect to the -- I believe it was a genuine oversight of the commission. Dr Sinclair is issuing an apology to the people of eastern Ontario for not providing the documents in both official languages and for failing to provide those services at the press conference. I understand that apology is forthcoming today.

COURT RULING

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is to the minister responsible for municipal affairs, although you'd hardly know it by the decisions that are emanating now from our courts.

Today, Judge Brennan sent your megacity trustees packing. He said that the unelected trustees you appointed to run Toronto and overrule its democratically elected representatives -- Minister, you may laugh about this, but all kinds of people in this province believe in democratic government. They believe in responsible government. You may laugh at it.

Minister, to put it in brief, he said you broke the law. He said that you are trampling on people's democratic rights. He said you are acting "contrary to fundamental principles of responsible government."

Minister, will you finally show some respect for --

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): He's a puppet now.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. I would ask the member for Scarborough North to withdraw that comment.

Mr Curling: I don't know what I said to be withdrawn, Mr Speaker. I said he was a puppet now.

The Speaker: I apologize, then. I misheard you.

Mr Hampton: Let me start again, Speaker. I'm asking the minister to finally show some respect for democracy, to finally show some respect for responsible government, to finally show some respect for people's democratic rights. Will you withdraw Bill 103, go back to the drawing board, involve the people who live in Metropolitan Toronto and draft legislation that speaks to people's needs?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I'll repeat: The court has made a decision, a ruling on the orders in council that were processed. The bill itself is going through the legislative process, as it should. It's out at committee now. The courts didn't rule at all on anything in the bill. My understanding is that they have ruled that the orders in council shouldn't have been processed until such time as the bill was approved by this Legislature.

We have repeatedly stated that the trustees didn't have any authority until such time as the legislation was passed. We agreed to that, and we continue to agree with that judge's ruling that the trustees did not have any authority until the legislation was passed. What he has asked us to do is withdraw the orders in council, and we'll obviously comply with that.

Mr Hampton: This minister has a unique capacity to show contempt for this Legislature and an equally unique capacity to show contempt for the people of this province.

What the judge said, and you should perhaps read this judgement, was that you don't have the royal prerogative any more, that you can't use the royal prerogative of kings and queens and shove it down people's throats. That's what he says in this judgement. He says very clearly that your so-called appointments were made without authority and are of no legal effect. He says you can't try to use the royal prerogative to shove it down people's throats either.

I throw your selective reading of this judgement aside. There has never been a condemnation of a government or a condemnation of a cabinet minister equal to this judgement. He says you don't have the rights of kings or queens.

I repeat the question: Will you go back to the drawing board? Will you withdraw your bill which tries to override democratic --

The Speaker: Thank you. Minister?

Hon Mr Leach: I'm going to be repeating our position through this series of questions because in our view what the judge has said is that the government did not have the authority to issue orders in council until such time as the legislation was passed. We have repeatedly stated and agreed with that position.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'm having a great deal of difficulty. To the members for Lake Nipigon and Algoma, it's very difficult to hear the answer. I would ask that you come to order, please.

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): It's very difficult sitting here listening to him.

The Speaker: Member for Lake Nipigon, I don't want to have a debate with you. The question was put. I'd like to hear the answer. Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: Again to repeat, we have stated that the trustees didn't have any authority, never had any authority, would never have any authority until such time as the legislation was passed. We agree with that. What we were doing was appointing a body that would be in a position to be prepared to take certain actions when and if the legislation was passed. If the legislation didn't pass this Legislature, then the trustees would never have had any power.

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): You said December 17.

The Speaker: Member for Oakwood, I'm warning you to come to order now. Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr Hampton: The minister here tries to give a far different explanation than the explanation the government tried to give before a judge, and the judge didn't buy it. He sent your megacity trustees packing, he sent your argument about trying to use the prerogative of kings and queens -- imagine that: Here we are in the latter years of the 20th century and this minister goes to court and tries to argue he has the power of a king or queen, the power of royal prerogative.

This is indeed an insult. It is an insult to all the people of Ontario that this government thinks it has the power of a king or queen, the power to institute regulations in the same way that a king or queen acting in the 17th century would do it. That's what the judge said to you. He said you do not have the power of a king or queen, you do not have the royal prerogative any longer, that we live in a democracy, that legislation and regulations must come before the Legislature.

I put it to you again. You have tried now three and four ways to force your will on the people of this province without getting --

The Speaker: Thank you, leader. Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Hon Mr Leach: Again to the member across, at least I had the decency to be in the House when the Lieutenant Governor was sworn in.

What the judge ruled upon today was the OICs that were in question and the OICs that were processed prior to the legislation being approved. I don't think that's an unusual set of circumstances, to process order-in-council appointments prior to legislation being passed. If the courts rule that OICs shouldn't be processed before legislation is passed, that's I think a very precedent-setting ruling. But again to repeat, we have stated that the trustees would not have any jurisdiction whatsoever to take any actions on any issue until such time --

Mr Colle: That's not what you said in the bill; you said December 17.

The Speaker: Member for Oakwood. I don't want to name the member for Oakwood, but you're jumping in and it's very difficult to hear the minister. If it happens again, I will name the member for Oakwood. Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'll say this directly to the member for Oakwood, because he's obviously been talking and not listening --

Mr Colle: You're not listening; you said December 17.

The Speaker: This place sometimes can be provoking, but I ask the member for Oakwood, you must come to order, please. I can't hear the minister. I would like to hear the minister. You get the opportunity to put the questions; they deserve the opportunity to answer them. Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: I can only repeat that the ruling in question was about the OICs that were passed appointing the trustees.

Mr Colle: It was not; it was about responsible government.

The Speaker: The member for Oakwood. I name the member for Oakwood, Mr Colle. Will the member for Oakwood please leave the chamber.

Mr Colle was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: New question, leader of the third party.

Mr Hampton: Mr Speaker, I want to raise a point of order on this. I simply want you to hear this out because I think it bears on the proceedings in this Legislature. This is what the judge said:

"It seems to me contrary to fundamental principles of responsible government to invoke the royal prerogative without adverting to it. It would also be inimical to those principles if the court assumed that a residual royal prerogative prevails to validate any executive action for which legislative authorization is absent."

Speaker, the judge in this case said that this government cannot do by assuming a royal prerogative what it can't do through the Legislature. The judge has said that basically this government, by its arguments in court, was trying to get around the Legislature. They were trying to say that this government has a royal prerogative that overrides this Legislature. I think that calls into question the whole reason of why we have a Legislature here.

The Speaker: The leader of the third party, I think that is exactly what I reserved judgement on earlier with respect to ruling. You may put those in the record -- they are now in the record -- and I will review them at that time.

New question, leader of the third party.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): Well, Speaker, I'll go to the next piece of chaos this government has created, and it's concerning the chaos that we now see in health care. My question is to the Minister of Health. In September, his hospital restructuring commission walked into Sudbury and ordered two hospitals closed, which amounts to taking $42 million a year out of Sudbury's health care. I remind the minister that Sudbury is the regional health care centre providing services such as cardiac surgery to the entire northeast of the province.

On top of the $42 million that your hospital commission is taking out of Sudbury, you have also cut the budgets, separate and above from the $42 million, by $4.7 million on top of that. It amounts to taking $46 million out of Sudbury in a year. When will you make the reinvestment decisions for Sudbury? When will you put the money back so that the people of --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Minister of Health.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member doesn't have his facts straight. These are not cumulative amounts. We don't have the commission with some sort of a fiscal target and the savings that the Treasurer has asked hospitals to find in getting rid of waste and duplication and excessive administration that was announced a couple of budgets ago. We all know what those savings are and the commission has only indicated that it can find at least that much money, that we will have a better health care system by finding those savings and reinvesting them in home care and other priority services.

Our reinvestments, the amount of money we've spent putting back into health care, far exceed anything we've seen in savings from the hospitals or any other part of the system right now. It's about three times as much in for any savings we've seen to date. The commission itself is driven by a genuine desire to improve the quality and access of our health care system and to stop wasting money on half-empty buildings, which is the case in Sudbury today.

Over the next three to four years, after the commission has done its work --

The Speaker: Thank you, Minister. Supplementary, the member for Algoma.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): It's obvious from the minister's response he doesn't know the seriousness of the situation in the northeast.

I have a letter from Dr David Gould of Sault Ste Marie, who is the head of cardiac services for the Sault area hospitals. It's dated February 17 and addressed to the minister's predecessor. I'd ask one of the pages to take it over to the minister.

Dr Gould says that you have a crisis on your hands in the northeast related to the waiting list for cardiac surgery. The waiting list, he says, now stands at 250. He also says, "We have had three patients die as a result of a long waiting list during the past two weeks."

It is true that you have done some reinvestment in cardiac care in Sudbury. It has resulted in one more surgery per week in Sudbury. At the caseload capacity we now have, it will take five years to get through the waiting list. What are you going to do about this? When are you going to put some more money --

The Speaker: Thank you, member. Minister of Health. Member for Algoma, please take your seat. Could you please go back to your seat? Thank you so much.

The Speaker: Final supplementary, member for Sault Ste Marie.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): This is the fourth time I've raised this issue in the House. Today's letter is a shocking account of your government's stewardship over the health care system in Ontario. Dr Gould writes: "Their hearts had deteriorated so severely while waiting for the surgery that by the time the patient was able to get in, their hearts were too weak to sustain them through the operation. They will therefore be listed as surgical deaths, rather than as deaths while waiting on the waiting list, which is really what they are."

Another patient had to sell his home to buy service in the States.

In November 1995, the waiting list was over 60; November 1996, it was over 230; today, it's over 250. Will you honestly reinvest in health care? Will you lift the quota on heart surgery in Sudbury for all of northeastern Ontario and free the doctors to do what they do best? They say they can clean this waiting list up if you will only lift the quota. Will you lift the quota?

Hon Mr Wilson: Yes, we expect a recommendation very soon from the cardiac care network, which has been looking at this problem. We have a problem in terms of we invested a significant amount of money in heart surgeries over the past few months and yet we expected by this time to see a 19% increase in surgeries. Unfortunately they've only been able to do an 8.5% increase. It's not a lack of money; it's a lack of capacity in the system. We have the experts on an urgent basis trying to figure out what's wrong and as soon as --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Minister, are you done? No? Minister.

Hon Mr Wilson: The experts, the people who do the surgeries, are about to give us some advice on how to improve the system. Just the moment we get that advice we'll put their recommendations in place so that more surgeries can be done.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East): I direct this question to the Minister of Health. I wonder if the minister realizes that the Health Services Restructuring Commission has recommended the closing of the only francophone secondary care hospital in Ontario. What kind of signal are we trying to give to the rest of our country?

This recommendation gives me great concern as I am convinced the commission has not taken into account the effect this closure would have on the care and indeed the safety of francophones in Ontario. My question is, in reviewing the recommendations that will be put before you, will the government exercise its responsibility as the protector of minority rights in this province and reject this particular recommendation?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): As I said, the importance of French-language services and providing those services in our health care system is recognized by the commission in the work they've done to date. They go to great pains in their report on many pages to ensure that they are sensitive to the needs of the francophone members of your constituency and of Ottawa-Carleton.

The commission has, in their interim findings, ordered that a plan be put in place to ensure that French-language services continue to be provided in the buildings that will be remaining. Again, those 700 beds have been closed. The administration's all there. The dollars are being wasted on administration.

Your own Ottawa Citizen today has an editorial praising much of the work of the commission and indicating that the administration was excessive in that area and agreeing, I think, with the commission and the government policy that money has to be spent on patients and not on excessive administration and redundant bricks and mortar.

Mr Morin: Let me place points in order. The president of the general hospital has said that if the civic hospital was to join with the general hospital, it would be the end of francophone services, that the francophones would suffer immensely. To me and to all of us it means the beginning of the assimilation of francophones in Ontario. It is the beginning of the end.

Minister, the situation regarding the Montfort Hospital cannot be glossed over. Yesterday was a day of mourning for francophones all over Ontario. This issue is not only of patient care but of the training of francophone health care professionals and the unique role of the Montfort in both of these areas.

Will the minister and the minister for francophone affairs commit today to meet with leaders of the francophone community to hear their concerns about this critically important issue?

Hon Mr Wilson: I must say I have no doubt about the sincerity of the member with respect to this issue, but I would remind him that his constituents are currently providing French-language services at the general hospital, which is a fully designated hospital. The Royal rehab centre and St Vincent pavilion are designated as French-language services hospitals. Also, the CHEO -- the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario -- the civic and the Royal psych hospital all have designated units, French-language services.

The commission has gone to great lengths to ensure that not only those current designated services remain in place, but also a comprehensive plan be developed to ensure the continuation of French-language health services to the people in your riding and the people of Ottawa-Carleton who need those services.

COMMUNITY CARE

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I also have a question for the Minister of Health. Last week the member for Nickel Belt asked the temporary Minister of Health why the ministry has, in the words of the deputy minister, "halted all activities of community care access centres pending the development and approval of individual business plans for each CCAC," and as a result the Durham board of their CCAC resigned.

Minister, with only one month before their mandate comes into effect, the CCACs have been ordered to drop everything to fulfil your bureaucratic requirement. Your actions to cut hospital funding by $1.3 billion mean more and more patients are being released from the hospitals still requiring professional care and the pressure on home care grows daily.

Can you guarantee us here today that on April 1 the CCACs which you created to deliver these growing and vital services will actually be in place, or are we seeing the health ministry's version of the disastrous so-called reform in the family support plan?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): I remind all members that there was great praise for the development of the community care access centres from the service providers. They're far more preferred than the multiservice agency model the previous government was trying to put in place.

The idea of the business plans is to ensure that we get rid of the excessive administration in home care throughout the province. We have 73 home care and placement coordination offices today.

They will be replaced by 42 community care access centres, and we want to see the business plans -- and I think it's a reasonable requirement for any business that's using taxpayers' dollars to deliver services -- so that we can ensure that they do not spend an excessive amount of money on administration -- we're trying to correct the problems of the past -- and that every dollar is driven to home nursing services, home care, Meals on Wheels, occupational therapy, physiotherapy. That's why we want to see the business plans, just to ensure that they're not building empires.

We're getting rid of the empires of the past and replacing them with streamlined efficient delivery systems.

Mrs Boyd: You're full of fine words, Minister, but the reality is that the CCACs are in real difficulty in looking at fulfilling their mandate. You not only have the resignation of the entire Durham regional board, but we have a copy of a letter to the Premier from Terry Shields, the vice-chair of the Hamilton-Wentworth CCAC. Mr Shields makes a connection to the order from your ministry to stop the work of the CCACs with the decision of your government to download long-term-care funding to the municipalities. He suggests that you are bowing to the pressure to transfer delivery decisions to the municipalities.

Will you deny that you're considering reversing a whole year's work on long-term-care reform --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you, member. Minister of Health.

Mrs Boyd: -- and will you deny that the ministry is currently considering options that would cancel the implementation?

The Speaker: Member for London Centre. Minister of Health.

Hon Mr Wilson: Again, when you're using taxpayers' dollars, it's a very reasonable request to ask for a business plan. Many of the community care access centre boards had already developed business plans, so it didn't apply to all of them, just those that had not submitted anything to the ministry.

Every dollar has to be spent on services, not excessive administration. An example is that in some communities it may be appropriate to have the offices for the community care access centres in the empty parts of the hospital buildings or in health care facility buildings where we have physical space.

Mrs Boyd: Why didn't you think of that six months ago?

Hon Mr Wilson: We did think of that, I say to the honourable member. It's just that some of the boards didn't quite get the message so we're asking them to submit a business plan and to make absolute best use of the taxpayers' dollars to ensure that every dollar is available for care and not administration.

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): Why did you wait till now?

The Speaker: The members for London Centre and Hamilton Centre, I want you to come to order, please. Thank you.

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): My question is to the Minister of Education. I'm quite concerned about an event that I read in my local paper the other day. I was reading that the Ontario Public School Boards' Association is thinking about organizing a constitutional legal challenge against the ministry as a result of Bill 104. The public school board is asking that the public boards in Ontario give at least 60 cents per student to them to be able to fight this constitutional challenge.

As everyone in this House knows, I represent some of the poorest boards in the province, and as I read the motion from my board, it suggested that we would allow up to 75 cents per student to be given to this constitutional challenge. That translates to $7,500 that will be put into the pockets of lawyers as opposed to being put into textbooks, computers and important classroom events. Minister, will you please tell us how Bill 104 will help stop this kind of abuse of taxpayers' dollars?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): I want to thank the member for Huron for the question. Let's be very clear about this. There is no indication whatsoever that there is anything in Bill 104 that is unconstitutional, right off the start, and in all the public hearings there has been absolutely no indication of that. In fact Bill 104 is about reducing waste and duplication --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): Bullshit.

The Speaker: I take it you want to withdraw that. If you'd stand and withdraw that, please. Thank you. Minister of Education.

Hon Mr Snobelen: Bill 104 is about reducing waste and duplication, and reducing the number of politicians in our education system from about 1,900 to 700. In addition to Bill 104, this government has announced its intention to lift the burden of financing education from the local boards and from the property taxpayer.

We will do this in answer to any number of studies on our funding system and we'll do it, oddly enough, in answer to the requests of the Ontario Public School Boards' Association, whose cries for more investment from the province have fallen on deaf ears for over a decade. We will do this to ensure that every student in the province has an opportunity to a high quality of education and we'll do it without violating any constitutional rights.

Mrs Johns: Minister, when I meet with my trustees, they tell me that they are putting every cent that they possibly can back into the classroom, that they are spending between 1% and 3% of their budget in administration. Now I discover that they're spending $7,500 of the taxpayers' money in Huron county to be wasted on this legal challenge. Is there anything we can do to change this situation or to improve it?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I can tell the member for Huron that the Ontario Public School Boards' Association or her local trustees do not need to file a lawsuit to improve student achievement. They need to assist us in ensuring that we have a funding model that meets the needs --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Member for Sudbury, member for Fort William, please come to order. Minister of Education.

Hon Mr Snobelen: They need to assist us in making sure that our funding model meets the needs of every individual student. They need to help us reduce waste and overlap and duplication and bureaucracy in education. They need to help us raise the standards of students' performance right across the province with common curriculum and real testing.

Spending $800,000 on a lawsuit, enough for textbooks for a thousand classrooms or 1,600 individual musical instruments, won't help students. It will be a vain attempt to protect a bloated bureaucracy and to protect the jobs, pay and perks of a few trustees.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): What a hypocrite.

The Speaker: That's out of order. The member for Sudbury, will you withdraw.

Mr Bartolucci: Withdrawn.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Did I hear the minister say how much the TV ads are costing, with the Premier --

The Speaker: That's not a point of order. New question.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Gerard Kennedy (York South): My question is for the Minister of Health. I really would encourage you to talk straight to us, not to follow the example of the minister just before you. Tell us clearly how your cuts -- your cuts are what are hurting patients today. You stand in your place and say restructuring hasn't taken place yet. Restructuring is going to hurt people tomorrow. Your cuts, the ones signed for on your desk, are what is hurting people today.

The Jim Wilson prescription -- nobody else's -- is made up of slide-rules and formulas. You send your people into towns, your ministry staff and the restructuring people, and you're telling people now how long to keep people in hospital. You have rules about that called the average length of stay, and you're forcing hospitals to adopt these phoney rules.

Yesterday, Minister, we exposed the fact that you're aware that all the models your ministry can run still show you're hurting patients to the tune of $300 million worth of hurt this year, cuts you can't get unless you take them out of patients' care.

Minister, will you not talk directly today to the people of Ottawa, to the people of Pembroke, to the people of Brockville and admit that you're experimenting on health care --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you, member for York South.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member for York South should know full well that the Minister of Health as a layperson does not make up these benchmarks. The commission is made up of experts in the health care field who have put together a plan for health care and for hospital restructuring so that at the end of the day we'll have modern hospitals with new technologies, more nurses in the buildings that remain, more services, and greater access for the people of Ontario.

In the three areas he mentions, we don't have a waiting list for home care in Ottawa today or home nursing services, nor in Windsor, nor in Thunder Bay. We've made a tremendous investment of some $170 million in those community-based care programs and we're going to make more investments.

I thought I proved to the honourable member yesterday that his figures were in error and that the government has reinvested much more new money into health care than anything we've been seeing in savings to date.

Mr Kennedy: That's not what your joint committee with the hospitals told you and it's not what an expert whom the hospital restructuring committee invited to take a look at the strategies you're using told you. This expert says that the device you're using, that you're endorsing for the restructuring commission and for the ministry, is a "statistical anomaly unsuitable as a meaningful benchmark" for establishing the number of beds. This average length of stay that you're using, making all the hospitals fit this phoney slide-rule that your so-called experts are using, is flawed rather than merely aggressive.

Minister, will you speak now to all the people affected by the cuts and will you withdraw the use --

The Speaker: Thank you. Minister of Health?

Hon Mr Wilson: In working with the Ontario Hospital Association and with the hospitals throughout the province, the government is concerned about the third year of the savings, and we've indicated that; and that we want to listen very, very carefully. Hospitals have done an absolutely tremendous job in year one, and we're just beginning year two, the early stages of year two. They've done a tremendous job, and throughout the system they are serving you won't find a hospital today that isn't serving more patients, maintaining the quality; they have quality councils that measure this.

Where we have problems in hospitals today, those problems need to be addressed. We need to learn from those individual cases and we need to make reinvestments to continue to improve the system. The commission has as its guiding principles improving quality to service and improving access to service. That's what it's doing, and it is looking at communities to ensure --

The Speaker: Thank you, Minister.

FIRE SAFETY

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I have a question of the Solicitor General. Firefighters in this province know that the Premier broke his promise to consult with them. They know that Bill 84 is going to reduce public safety and put at risk fire protection here in Ontario. Among other things, it opens the doors wide to the privatization of firefighting services.

Just a few weeks ago senior officials from Rural/Metro, a US-based private firefighting service, was up in Waterloo talking to their CEO and presented a plan for the privatization of their fire department, their firefighting services. That's the same US company that you know has already started to take over ambulances here in the province.

One of the things they've proposed to reduce costs, because they're profit-driven, is a 66-hour workweek, and reducing the number of staff that would be available on emergency vehicles. Private firefighting services like Rural/Metro and many others are motivated by profit. Can you explain how privatization of firefighting is going to enhance public safety here in Ontario?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I'd like the member opposite to explain to me how the bill encourages privatization. There's nothing in terms of the legislation that encourages or discourages privatization, but that is no change from the current status. Nothing has changed in that respect, and municipalities in this province have not privatized. That option has been available in the past. Nothing in Bill 84 encourages any change with respect to the approach to the operation of fire services in this province.

Mr Kormos: The firefighters know better. I know better. This minister ought to know better. He redefines "employer" to include private operations and persons in addition to mere municipalities.

Rural/Metro is peddling its wares up here for a very clear reason, because they know that this government is writing a blank cheque for the privatization of public services like firefighting.

Let me tell you how Rural/Metro has done in the United States. Down in the Phoenix area it took them over 20 minutes to arrive at one house fire. The house burned to the ground. Rural/Metro then billed the home owner over $13,000 for equipment and services that never arrived at the site. Another Phoenix-area resident stood there and watched firefighters standing around watching her house burn. They only had three and a half minutes of water in their pumper truck. Another truck broke down and had to be towed away from the scene. That home owner was billed too.

That's how private operators have been operating in the United States and that's how they propose to operate here. Why are you opening the door for private firefighting services in Ontario? There's just no justification for it.

Hon Mr Runciman: I didn't get an answer with respect to how we're encouraging privatization or any change in terms of the current status. The member is engaging in real scare tactics here with respect to using some kind of a horrid example in the United States --

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): How much money did they give the PC Party, eh Bob?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. Members come to order, please.

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): -- must have been in the legislation --

The Speaker: Member for Cochrane North, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Sault Ste Marie, come to order.

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): They're scared, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Member for Lake Nipigon, please come to order.

Hon Mr Runciman: Mr Speaker, if they're genuinely concerned, I'm about to allay their concerns. All they have to do is listen. Bill 84 provides greater protection to communities across this province than is currently the case. Under the current legislation there's no requirement to even provide a fire service, that's the reality, but the new legislation ensures oversight through the fire marshal's office and through the office of the Solicitor General.

If indeed either office feels that a community's public safety is in jeopardy, they have the right to intervene and make requirements for that municipality to provide an adequate level of fire service. If the municipality declines to follow those recommendations, the cabinet and the government of the day have the right to intervene and pass regulations requiring them to do so.

WOMEN'S ISSUES

Mr John Hastings (Etobicoke-Rexdale): My question is directed to the minister responsible for women's issues. Given the positive economic initiatives this government is undertaking in helping women to achieve true economic independence, I would like to ask the minister how this government is specifically dealing with this question --

Interjections.

Mr Hastings: -- unlike the opposition, who aren't concerned at all.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): In response to the member for Etobicoke-Rexdale, there are probably three pieces of information we should be taking back to our constituents.

First of all, our school systems are to be congratulated. Young girls and women are choosing courses that will advance their careers in math and science in order to balance their education so they can get the good jobs.

Second, sexual harassment is still prevalent in our society. In our schools right now, we should also say congratulations to our teachers for using The Joke's Over, which is an extremely good program to eliminate, we hope, sexual harassment in society. We have to start with young people, the younger the better.

The last piece I'd like to talk about is the work of the Minister of Education as he proceeds on apprenticeship reform. It's important to know that only 10% of apprenticeship positions are filled by girls and women. It's important to improve upon that, and we'll be doing that with the Minister of Education in the very near future.

Mr Hastings: Thank you for that excellent response. I'd like to focus also on how your ministry is trying to achieve specific initiatives contained in the last budget. Given that the rate of economic enterprises and growth by women in this province is at three times the ratio that men create businesses, I'd like to know how those particular budgetary measures are helping women to achieve economic independence today, unlike the opposition, who aren't interested at all.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: I thank the member for the question. I think it's important to recognize that women are creating small businesses at three times the rate of men. They are the largest creators of small businesses in Canada, so it's extremely important that they were recognized in the last budget in three regards.

First of all, the employer health tax, which was started by the Liberal government some six years ago: It's a huge, important piece of information and an incentive to creators of small business that we take off that employer health tax for businesses that have a payroll of less than $400,000.

The small business investment credit, which the banks are working with: Many women have come forward and said they have probably done better because of that working relationship with their bank.

We've cut the red tape and the overregulation, which wasn't important to either of the two former governments, which increased it to such an extent that people didn't even want to do business in the province of Ontario.

Finally, the tax rate cut will help people who earn less than $20,000 --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): New question; the member for Prescott and Russell.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE HOSPITAL SERVICES

At the present time, the minister says French services are there and will remain there. Let me tell you, Minister, at the present time francophone services do not exist at the Ottawa General Hospital. My brother was admitted at the Montfort Hospital and transferred to the general hospital. The file followed him in the ambulance.

But 16 hours after he was admitted to the general hospital, the nurse at the general told me when I got there, "I'm sorry, Mr Lalonde" -- lucky he's got a strong heart; all the time he had a heart attack -- "but I have not received the record yet." Because the record was written in French by the physician at the Montfort Hospital, 16 hours later, the records were not at the general hospital.

Minister, would you commit today or would you tell the Minister of Health that the Montfort Hospital will remain open for the francophone people of --

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): Under Bill 8, the general hospital is designated in every area to deliver French-language services. I had the opportunity last summer to be in the general hospital because I lost a cousin there, and I will tell you that French is spoken in every corridor and I had no problem speaking French anywhere. So when you say that the general hospital does not operate in French, you are absolutely wrong. I will tell you that CHEO is designated in certain areas for the delivery of French-language services, as is the civic hospital.

The restructuring committee has recommended --

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): You cannot close the Montfort.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order, the member for Oriole. Minister of francophone affairs.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: I simply want to tell the public, the friends of Montfort, that indeed they have 30 days to express their concerns --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Minister.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: These recommendations were made very much with the direction to support francophone services in the community of Ottawa, and I can assure you that francophone services will remain.

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I appreciate that you've reserved a ruling on the earlier point of order related to the court decision on Bill 103. I would like you to consider, as you make a ruling on that issue, a related issue on Bill 104, the education bill, the Fewer School Boards Act.

You will be aware that there is a provision in that legislation for retroactivity and that the commissioners who are to essentially take over the powers of duly elected boards have been appointed, and although they are nominally serving as consultants to the ministry, they are in fact carrying out their responsibilities. But even more significant perhaps than that is that the legally elected, mandated boards' powers have been retroactively suspended as of January 14. I believe there's a clear relationship between that ruling and the court order on Bill 103. I'll wait until you've consulted, if you like. At your pleasure, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Yes, it was confirmed in my mind. The ruling I made on Bill 103 at the time -- it was brought forward by the member for Dovercourt and I suggested it was a legal issue at this point in time. Now it's gone out. I will say to you about Bill 104 the same thing I said about Bill 103. It's a legal issue at this time. It hasn't been satisfied. There has not been a legal decision rendered, as I understand, on Bill 104. I understand what you're going to say. You're going to say it has great relationship to Bill 103, but the fact --

Interjection.

The Speaker: Okay, continue.

Mrs McLeod: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say something that you might be prepared to consider, Mr Speaker. It gives me a bit of head start on the next leg.

My concern, and it's in a response the Minister of Education made to a question earlier today, is that people are going to have to take forward almost the same challenge under Bill 104 as has just been adjudicated in court on Bill 103. I know that my colleague raised an issue of contempt. I want to place a slightly different point of order.

It would be my understanding, based on a considerable amount of work that was done a year ago as to the role of the Speaker and the responsibility of the Speaker, that if you believe that something which is part of legislation that has been brought forward is not in order -- and I would submit to you that given the ruling on Bill 103 that retroactivity is not in order in legislation, it would not be in order in Bill 104 -- as Speaker you would be able to direct the government, since apparently it would rather trustees spent money going to court to get another virtually identical situation resolved in legal terms, you as Speaker could prevent that happening by looking at the inappropriateness of that part of that legislation.

The Speaker: The member for Fort William, I appreciate the point of order you raise. I feel that with respect to Bill 104 my original ruling will probably be the same as on Bill 103. It's incumbent that these get before the courts and be heard before the courts and decisions rendered at that stage, and that seems to be the most appropriate process to use today.

What I will say is that I'm taking into consideration all the points of privilege and order with respect to Bill 103. I'm not being dismissive, but I honestly can't see a point of privilege or a contempt that you bring forward with respect to Bill 104.

Mrs McLeod: If I may, I'm not bringing forward either privilege or contempt; I'm bringing forward a point of order. I do this quite seriously. I don't really believe that we should be in a situation in the province of Ontario where private citizens, elected or otherwise, must continually go to court in order to have their government do something which has clearly been shown to be inappropriate and undemocratic.

Again, I'll wait while you consult.

The Speaker: I've heard from the Clerk, and he's saying basically the same thing I'm saying. It's not up to the Speaker to decide the constitutionality of a bill; it's up to the courts to decide that.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, if I may plead my point, I believe we have a very serious issue before this Legislature. We have had an individual representing an elected body go to court and today obtain a decision that legislation being presented in this place is not legally appropriate.

I would submit to you that that action sets a precedent for what is appropriate legislation in this place. Surely you're not saying that as Speaker you cannot look at that precedent now determined in the court, according to your previous direction, a precedent that is clearly applicable to a second piece of legislation before the House, surely you're not saying that you have no power to see the parallel and that yet more citizens have to go to court, make that expenditure, force the government to try and counter it, when you could resolve that by seeing the very clear relationship between the two.

The Speaker: The member for Fort William, that is what I'm saying. I know it's difficult to accept, but that is what I'm saying, simply because the Speaker can't rule on the legality or constitutional legality of legislation, regardless of how closely you see them or how parallel they are. What I'm saying to you is, I can't make that adjudication. As Speaker, I would be in a very dangerous situation if I were to begin ruling on the legalities of bills that came into this place.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, with respect, I believe that you have been given bad advice. I believe we are in a situation which has not had precedent within this Legislature. We have a citizen having a court decision that legislation is inappropriate in being presented to this House, and I believe you have a responsibility to deal with what is not precedented and to at least review the concern.

The Speaker: I'm prepared to do that. If that's what you're asking me to do, to review your concerns, review what you put on the record and give it some consideration, I am prepared to do that. I want you to understand I come at this with some degree of predisposition, but I will give you my undertaking to review it.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: With all due respect --

The Speaker: Is this the same point of order? It is?

Mr Wildman: With all due respect, Speaker, to your high office, I understand the difficulty you find yourself in. It would be most helpful to all of us in this assembly, and particularly to you, if the government House leader and the Minister of Education and Training were listening carefully to this discussion and themselves would find parallels and take action rather than waiting for members of the public to have to go to court. Surely it's incumbent upon the government to act, with regard to Bill 104, in compliance with the court ruling on Bill 103 rather than waiting for the public to take them to court.

The Speaker: The member for Algoma, it's not a point of order. I appreciate your comments, but it is not a point of order.

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: If the member for Fort William or the member for Algoma wishes to raise a question on Bill 104, the proper time for that is question period. This minister will be more than happy to respond to it.

In response to the comments from the member for Algoma, we will of course review Bill 104 in relationship to any court rulings --

Interjections.

The Speaker: It's a point of privilege. With a great deal of respect, the members opposite do listen to your points of privilege and order. I ask the same for them. Minister.

Hon Mr Snobelen: We obviously will review Bill 104 in light of any rulings from courts and we will make known to the members of the opposition and the third party the results of those reviews. We'll be doing that in good course.

COURT RULING

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm referring to the court order as it relates to Bill 103, which is presently before the Legislature. The Speaker ruled and we now have a court order which says that the actions of the government to date, as they relate to Bill 103 and some of the provisions within that bill for the appointment of trustees, are, and I would give you the language on page 13: "I conclude that the orders in council of December 18, 1996, were made without authority and are of no legal effect. The appointments are therefore void. The appointees' actions have no legal effect until they are appointed pursuant to a statute in force."

I believe this affects the relevance of this place and I ask, in light of this court decision, if a motion of contempt would be in order because of the actions taken by the government of approving those appointments contrary to the legal action of the court, whether it is up to you to make a ruling that the government acted in contempt of this Legislature. Clearly they acted illegally.

Also, questions were raised in this House. They assured us they were doing nothing wrong. The courts have now said they --

The Speaker: The member for Oriole --

Mrs Caplan: Can I have your ruling?

The Speaker: I'm going to give that ruling because the member for Oakwood and the member for Dovercourt asked for that ruling to be made.

ORDER AND DECORUM IN CHAMBER

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: My point of order is with regard to the standing orders that deal with interjections.

This afternoon in the House I think we witnessed an individual member really stepping over the line with interjections. I quite understand the opposing opinions in this chamber and I respect that, as I know you do, Mr Speaker. We've all been on both sides of this chamber. This afternoon my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs responsible for francophone affairs was explaining that he understood how a particular hospital operated because he personally experienced that last year during the death of his cousin.

At this time, without relenting, the member for Windsor-Sandwich continued very loudly, as she does throughout all the question periods and seems to be able to get away with it, to heckle my colleague the minister in spite of the fact that he was explaining --

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Just tell the truth, Margaret.

Mrs Marland: You see what I mean? -- that he had gone through the death of his cousin.

This member, in my opinion, not only steps over the line with her very loud interjections to the point where earlier this afternoon, if you review the tape, you will hear that you had to shout to be heard over some of those members, but particularly the one for Windsor-Sandwich.

The Speaker: The member for Mississauga South, let's be very clear. I think with some degree the opposition tends to, I understand, heckle more than the government side. I think you do understand that, having spent some time in the opposition benches yourself with others.

I've got to say to the member for Mississauga South, when I sit here there's heckling that happens on this side as well. In fact at one point during the day one of your ministers was heckling, I would say, on a fairly regular basis. I didn't call that minister to order at the time either, because I understand that a number of people were heckling.

I understand that you may have problems with some of the members opposite in the way they heckle and what they're saying and so forth, and I know that during that point of time the minister for francophone affairs was offering what I would consider to be a very personal point of view on his life a year or so ago that was probably very emotional for him.

But, to the member for Mississauga South, a lot of people heckle in here and I do my very best to maintain order. With the greatest respect to the member for Mississauga South, it matters not who the person is that's heckling; it doesn't matter to me who they are or where they sit. I will call them to order if they've gone over the edge, which I did a number of times today, and I asked a member to leave.

As far as I'm concerned, the member for Windsor-Sandwich does have a very loud voice. Some of us in the past have been known to have a loud voice as well. I myself had a very loud voice in opposition and never got pitched out of the place. So I'm doing my very best to try and maintain order and decorum, and if you're trying to suggest to me that I'm not throwing the member for Windsor-Sandwich out because I don't particularly mind her heckles or I like her heckles or whatever, you're wrong.

It would be a much simpler job for me if nobody heckled in this place, but this is a fact of life. I'm doing the very best I can, and with all due respect, if the government side would sit quietly by the whole day and the opposition were the only people who were heckling back and forth, then maybe I would come down harder. But there are times when they are provoked and maybe there are times when they're provoking the government side.

I appreciate your point of order, but I just find no basis in fact for it.

PETITIONS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Gerard Kennedy (York South): I have a petition which reads:

"Stop Megacity Madness: Citizens Have Democratic Right to Be Heard.

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas `bigger government is not better' and the Mike Harris government has no right to dictate a megacity upon the citizens of Metro Toronto; and

"Whereas the megacity is being imposed on 2.3 million citizens in Metro Toronto without giving the people a voice in the future of their cities and their neighbourhoods; and

"Whereas a megacity could lead to mega property tax increases, mega user fees and mega cuts in services; and

"Whereas the Tories never proposed abolishing local government in favour of bigger government during the election campaign;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"To give the 2.3 million people in Metro Toronto a say in the future of their cities and stop the imposition of a megacity."

To this petition I affix my signature and it has been signed by dozens of people from the riding of York South.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): My petition is signed by hundreds of people. It reads:

"Citizens Have the Democratic Right to Be Heard on Megacity.

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas `bigger government is not better' and the Mike Harris government has no right to dictate a megacity upon the citizens of Metro Toronto; and

"Whereas the megacity is being imposed on 2.3 million citizens in Metro Toronto without giving people a voice in the future of their cities and neighbourhoods; and

"Whereas Bill 103 puts municipal councils in Metro Toronto under trusteeship, ending local democracy; and

"Whereas a megacity could lead to mega property tax increases, mega user fees and mega cuts in services; and

"Whereas the Tories never proposed abolishing local government in favour of bigger government during the election campaign" -- in fact they pledged to do the opposite --

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"To give the 2.3 million people in Metro Toronto a say in the future of their cities and stop the imposition of a megacity and stop the undemocratic takeover of our cities by non-elected trustees."

I affix my name to this petition.

PRINCE EDWARD HEIGHTS

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): "We, the family, friends and staff of Prince Edward Heights, are gravely disappointed with Minister Ecker's decision not to attend the tour and to speak publicly at the forum being held in Picton, Ontario.

"The closure of Prince Edward Heights will be not only a loss for the clients but for the community as well. The payroll alone for Prince Edward Heights is over $16 million. That will be taken directly out of the economy.

"We also feel that the government policy to close all institutions is a blanket policy that does not meet the needs of all individuals with developmental limitations. We want these individuals to have a choice of where they live.

"Once again, we state that Prince Edward Heights has supported over 700 successful community placements and we are very proud of that fact. We feel that at the present time not everyone who resides at Prince Edward Heights would benefit from a community placement and in fact would lose many of the rights and freedoms they now enjoy. They would also lose family and qualified staff due to the lack of any kind of standards being enforced in community agencies. Above all else, these people will lose their homes, friendship and relationships developed over a 25-year period.

"We urge you to come to Picton to meet these people and to see their homes and services and supports that are provided. There are many concerns and questions that we have that can only be answered by you. We would strongly encourage you to arrange a date and time for this."

I sign my name to this petition.

BIBLIOTHÈQUES PUBLIQUES

M. Jean-Marc Lalonde (Prescott et Russell) : J'ai une pétition ici qui me parvient des Amis de la bibliothèque de Hawkesbury, Lefaivre, L'Orignal et Vankleek Hill aux membres de l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario.

«Étant donné que nous croyons fermement que la responsabilité provinciale dans les bibliothèques publiques en Ontario est un droit fondamental de tous les Ontariens et toutes les Ontariennes ;

«Nous, les soussignés, demandons aux membres de l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario de sauvegarder la responsabilité provinciale dans les bibliothèques publiques en s'assurant de maintenir ce qui suit :

«

(1) Les subventions provinciales qui permettent d'assurer à tous les Ontariens et à toutes les Ontariennes un accès équitable aux documents et aux services de bibliothèque publique ;

«

(2) La coordination des programmes de partage des ressources tels que le système de prêt entre bibliothèques et l'accès au réseau Internet ;

«

(3) Une politique permettant d'assurer l'existence du réseau des bibliothèques publiques de l'Ontario ;

«

(4) L'aide directe de la part du gouvernement provincial au niveau du service, par exemple par l'entremise du Service des bibliothèques de l'Ontario-Sud et du Service des bibliothèques de l'Ontario du Nord ;

«

(5) Une loi maintenant l'autonomie des conseils d'administration des bibliothèques publiques en Ontario.»

EDUCATION LEGISLATION

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I have another petition, mostly from my riding but from all over the city of Toronto. It reads:

"Petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Mike Harris and John Snobelen promised to give Ontario students a better education and to make the education system more accountable; and

"Whereas there is nothing in Bill 104 or in prior bills to indicate how or whether the education of Ontario's students will improve; and

"Whereas Bill 104 severely undermines an important level of local, democratically elected representation; and

"Whereas Bill 104 allows the government to appoint an Education Improvement Commission with sweeping powers that reports to the Minister of Education; and

"Whereas the fact that Bill 104 states that the decisions of the Education Improvement Commission are `final and shall not be reviewed or questioned by a court' indicates a severe lack of regard for democracy; and

"Whereas the radical change to the structure of the education system called for in Bill 104 and the undue speed with which the government is attempting to pass and implement Bill 104 indicate a severe lack of regard for democracy; and

"Whereas democracy is the system that makes government accountable,

"We, the undersigned, demand that the government withdraw Bill 104."

As I agree with this, I will affix my name to this petition.

HOSPITAL FINANCING

Mr Dave Boushy (Sarnia): I have a petition in regard to base funding as it relates to hospital restructuring in my community. It's signed by about 120 people. It reads, very briefly:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Ontarians are gravely concerned with the historic $1.3-billion cuts to base funding of hospitals; and

"Whereas Ontarians feel that health services are suffering; and

"Whereas the government is reducing hospital funding and not reinvesting millions of dollars into the communities that they are being taken away from;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to call on the Conservative government to stop the cuts to base funding for hospitals across Ontario and to ensure that community services are in place before the removal of hospital services. The Conservative government must fund hospitals with a funding formula that reflects demographic and regional needs. The Conservative government must ensure that health services are available, including emergency and urgent care, to all Ontarians."

I'll be happy to affix my signature to this petition.

FIRE SAFETY

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Firefighters need speed, experience and teamwork to save lives. I oppose any legislation that could undermine the work of my local firefighters and jeopardize fire safety in my community. Please listen to professional firefighters and amend Bill 84 to eliminate the threat to fire safety."

I've also signed this petition.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the government of Ontario is proposing to restructure completely the provincial-municipal relationship without having consulted the people of Ontario; and

"This restructuring proposes to download to municipalities the cost of transportation and such critical social services as welfare and long-term care for the elderly and the chronically ill; and

"Removes school boards' ability to tax, eliminating any effective local control over schools and school programs; and

"The government's actions fail to guarantee existing levels of funding and failure to recognize the unequal ability of local communities to bear the cost of these new burdens, thus producing inequitable access to essential services; and

"Whereas the government's lack of meaningful public consultation and disregard for public response pose a serious threat to democracy;

We, the undersigned residents of Ontario, because we care about the quality of life in our province and the wellbeing of our children, neighbours and communities, register a vote of non-confidence to the government in the province of Ontario."

I affix my signature to this petition.

Mr John L. Parker (York East): I have a petition here signed by a number of residents of East York. It reads as follows:

"We, the undersigned residents of East York, are in favour of the borough of East York remaining as a separate municipality."

FIRE SAFETY

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Firefighters need speed, experience and teamwork to save lives. I oppose any legislation that could undermine the work of my local firefighters and jeopardize fire safety in my community. Please listen to professional firefighters and amend Bill 84 to eliminate the threat to fire safety."

I support this petition and hope the government will withdraw Bill 84.

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Speed, experience and teamwork save lives.

"Firefighters need speed, experience and teamwork to save lives. I oppose any legislation that could undermine the work of my local firefighters and jeopardize fire safety in my community. Please listen to professional firefighters and amend Bill 84 to eliminate the threat to fire safety."

I affix my signature to this petition as well.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre): I have a petition.

"Whereas the city of Scarborough is requiring individuals who want to participate in the mail-in referendum to provide their name, address and signature on the ballot; and

"Whereas this requirement is blatantly undemocratic and threatens the legitimacy of the democratic process; and

"Whereas the city of Scarborough makes no mention as to whether or not it will accept ballots from residents who wish to vote in confidence; and

"Whereas the question on the ballot itself is slanted towards the position of the city and cannot be viewed as a neutral question; and

"Whereas this uncertainty and undemocratic procedure makes the entire process a great misuse of taxpayers' dollars and tarnishes any results that will come out of the vote;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to (1) speak out against this undemocratic vote, (2) disregard the results of the vote, and (3) continue with the proposed unification of the municipalities into one unified city of Toronto."

FIRE SAFETY

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I have a petition against Bill 84 and in favour of firefighters who, as you know, are the best in the world. It reads as follows:

"Firefighters need speed, experience and teamwork to save lives. I oppose any legislation that could undermine the work of my local firefighters and jeopardize fire safety in my community. Please listen to professional firefighters and amend Bill 84 to eliminate the threat to fire safety."

I have affixed my signature to this document.

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly which reads as follows:

"Firefighters need speed, experience and teamwork to save lives. I oppose any legislation that could undermine the work of my local firefighters and jeopardize fire safety in my community. Please listen to professional firefighters and amend Bill 84 to eliminate the threat to fire safety."

This is signed by 15 residents of Collingwood. I agree with the petitioners and I have signed the petition as well.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Tim Hudak (Niagara South): I went to General Vanier public school in Fort Erie, and the students tell me they'd like to see Douglas Memorial Hospital stay open.

"We need the hospital facilities right in Fort Erie because of the great care that staff members give to the people of Fort Erie at the emergency centre and other departments of the hospital.

"Just think, if you close the hospital, people in Fort Erie that hurt themselves badly, people in need of medical care and even matters of life and death, would have to drive all the way to Niagara Falls, Welland or St Catharines, plus the doctors would more likely move elsewhere because they'd have no hospital for their patients."

It's signed by it looks like about 100 grades 6 and 8 students at General Vanier, like Heather Porteous, Ashley Sumbler, and I'll sign my signature with these student.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which I'll try to read in the most clear and loud voice possible.

"Whereas Windsor-Essex county was the first community to undergo hospital restructuring; and

"Whereas the community supported the recommendations of the Win-Win report based on a funding model that included the expansion of community-based care; and

"Whereas recent reports estimate that Windsor-Essex hospital expenditure is underfunded by approximately $122 per person; and

"Whereas this represents the lowest funding per capita for hospital services of any community in Ontario with a population of over 200,000;

"Whereas hospitals across the province have been forced to further reduce expenditures 18%; and

"Whereas these cuts have forced hospitals to eliminate emergency services in the west end of Windsor and other desperately needed services; and

"Whereas the minister acknowledged that additional funding was necessary in high-growth areas;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to call on the Minister of Health to provide appropriate levels of health care funding to hospitals in Windsor-Essex which would allow Windsor Regional Hospital to provide urgent care services for the west-end community and to restore equitable health care funding across Windsor and Essex county."

I affix my signature.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HOUSE SITTINGS

Resuming the adjourned debate on the House calendar motion.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): The member for Dovercourt.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): Yesterday the House agreed to allow Mr Wildman and me to split the opening time. I would like to ask, Speaker -- I believe there is agreement and I checked with the respective whips or House leaders -- if I could have unanimous consent to further split the time that's left in the opening 90 minutes with my colleague from Hamilton Centre.

The Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Agreed.

Mr Silipo: I appreciate the members agreeing to that request. It will allow me not to use up too much of my voice, as I've just been recovering from a bit of the flu and a virus, and allow my colleague from Hamilton Centre to get on the record. I don't say that to try to gain any sympathy, I want to assure you. I don't know how my voice sounds. It doesn't sound like it's all there from my end, but I would not want for a second, if my voice is not carrying with its usual fervour, particularly people across to take it as any sign of relenting, on my part and on our part, our opposition to what this government is doing and certainly our opposition to what this motion in front of us does.

We know that what this motion does is it orders the schedule, in effect, for the Parliament of Ontario for the next number of weeks by ensuring, if it's passed, as we assume it will pass later today, that when the House adjourns on March 6, it will stand adjourned until Tuesday, April 1, and the House will then meet for that week, including Friday of that week, essentially to deal with, as we know from what the government House leader has indicated to us, Bill 103 and Bill 104 -- I'll come back and talk a little about those two bills -- and then it will adjourn again for two weeks to give further time for committees to meet on a number of bills.

What are those bills and what is this motion all about? We know that those bills, starting with Bill 103 and Bill 104 but carrying on into a number of other bills, particularly Bill 106, which puts together a new municipal finance system in the province, and a number of many other bills that I'll have a chance to talk about as we go through this debate -- what those are all about, in the words of the government, is the Who Does What. In our view they're more about who does what to whom.

What this package is all about, what indeed this special session of the Parliament is really all about, is Mike Harris putting into full effect his Common Sense Revolution as he sees it, his sense that what he's about and his whole purpose for existing as a government is not to govern in the best interests of all the people of Ontario but rather to govern for those two and a half to three out of 10 electors who voted for the Conservative Party last time.

Members opposite will say, "We got 45% of the vote." It's true, but we know, and action after action has confirmed, that this government simply acts in a way to try to maintain its level of support among, at the end of the day, those two and a half to three out of 10 eligible voters who actually voted for this Conservative government. They really don't care very much about what the other seven of those eligible voters have to say about any of these issues.

Why don't they care? They don't care because they see that their mandate is not to govern in the best interests of all Ontarians but is rather to govern in a way that will put more money and more power into the hands of fewer and fewer people, those fewer and fewer people being the wealthiest and already the most powerful citizens in our province. For the rest of us it means, "Get used to whatever crumbs fall along the way."

That's the action we see in Bills 103 and 104, that's the action we see perpetuated through the kind of rush this government has wanted to go through to implement this legislation, and that's what's behind this motion as this government wants to continue trampling on the democratic process and trampling on everything that's been good and solid about how Parliament in this province has worked for these 150 years since Confederation and even prior to that.

We will not be supporting this motion because we believe that what this government is doing is fundamentally wrong. We believe that a good government looks at the problems of the day -- and we know the fiscal problems of the day are real -- and says, "How can we fix them in a way that maintains those basic qualities, those basic tenets of our society, those things that have made and make Ontario, Canada, the envy of the world?"

That's not what this government is doing. What this government is doing instead is dividing people, dividing people into those that have and those that have not; it's dividing people into the wealthiest and the rest of us. They're saying: "If you're wealthy we're going to make you wealthier, if you're powerful we're going to give you more power, and if you're the rest of Ontario, forget about it. We'll let a couple of people on the opposition bench from time to time speak on your behalf, but we're not really interested in what you have to say."

That's been the attitude we've seen from this government, and it's certainly been the attitude we've seen perpetuated in the way in which they have gone about handling these major pieces of legislation. Let's take a look at some of these things, what this government is doing and some of the details.

We know that most urgent in the government's

schedule are Bills 103 and 104. Of course, they make the argument that the reason they need these two bills -- Bill 103 being the megacity bill, the bill that forces amalgamation on Metropolitan Toronto, unlike any other area of the province, despite the objections of all of the local councils, despite the objections of hundreds and thousands of citizens who are expressing themselves through meetings, those few who have gotten the chance through the hearings on Bill 103, against what the government is doing. The government wants to go on.

We know that they equally want to press on with Bill 104, a bill that will reduce the number of school boards greatly, pulled together into very large school boards. Just to use the example here in Metropolitan Toronto, the new school board that will be created will have over 500 schools in its jurisdiction, will have 300,000 students in its jurisdiction. It will be a system that will be larger than the province of Alberta under one school board with 22 trustees, all of whom will be paid a paltry $5,000 or $6,000.

We know that will greatly reduce the ability of parents to have any influence in what goes on in their schools and in their children's education. It will greatly reduce any ability those school boards will have to make any real decisions to improve the quality of education. We know it's part and parcel of this government's plan to, in effect, take out of the system of education some $1 billion across the province.

We see this kind of attitude continuing. Day by day we continue to see the arrogance that has become the trademark of this government exemplified. We saw it earlier today once again in the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, who only days ago was found by the Speaker, in putting out a leaflet praising the virtues, as he saw them, of the megacity, to be in prima facie contempt of this Parliament because in putting out that information he had deemed that Parliament didn't matter, that the bill, once introduced, was just as good as passed.

That, of course, just happens to be contrary to the process around here. It also happens to be contrary to hundreds of years of parliamentary democracy.

But that wasn't enough for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, because just today we found out that one of the basic tenets of that bill was struck down. We know that one of the things this government has relied on greatly in implementing its megacity bill has been the imposition of trustees. What did we hear today from the courts of Ontario? We heard that the appointment of those trustees was illegal, void, of no effect. Yet the minister would not stand in his place and make a statement to that effect, explain to us what he was going to do, how he was going to deal with it. His off-the-cuff remark was, "Well, if you want to know what I'm going to do, ask me a question."

It's that type of arrogance that we continue to see from that minister particularly, from other ministers in this government, from the Premier himself. It's that arrogance that has become the trademark of this government. It's that arrogance that will be the ruin of this government at the end of the day, because it's that arrogance that people are seeing more and more. It's that lack of caring about all Ontarians.

It's that sense that comes from, "I know best." It's that sense that comes from, "I don't care what seven out of 10 Ontarians have to say; I only have to worry about the three out of 10 who are going to bother to vote for the Conservative Party." It's the attitude that is contemptuous of the democratic process that we have in this province.

Today we saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, in the face of a decision by the Ontario Court of Justice, General Division, and Justice Brennan, not even prepared to stand up and admit that what he had done was wrong. His defence was: "Well, we weren't surprised by the decision. We did say that the trustees didn't have these powers until the legislation is passed." That was the minister's defence.

But it's interesting, if you look at the judgement, that the reality is somewhat different, because in the judgement Justice Brennan quotes, in effect, from what the minister said here in this House on one occasion, when he said -- and this is Justice Brennan quoting Minister Leach -- "We've also heard some politicians say that the advice of the board of trustees does not have to be recognized and that they have no legal right to do their job until the legislation is passed.

That's technically correct." Here's the problem: "However," the minister says, "as the trustees' right to examine municipal decisions will be retroactive to the date this legislation was introduced it is in everyone's interests to cooperate with them."

That's exactly one of the things that Justice Brennan found was wrong with the order in council, because he went on to say, "On the very words of the orders in council which are the subject of this application it is apparent that from the time of their appointment the appointees were to fulfil the functions of the board referred to in the proposed act." That's what the order in council says.

Then he goes on to say later on in the judgement -- of course making the point that appointments under that authority must await the coming into force of the legislation; that point isn't in contention -- "If these orders in council were allowed to stand, the government would be allowed to do indirectly what it cannot do directly."

That's the point that the minister either chose not to hear, chose not to understand, or that's the point that simply bypassed him, because what the minister was doing was basically trying to have it both ways. He was hoping that in fact the courts would not find against him, because if he really believed, as he said here today, that he knew the orders in council were wrong, then he had lots of time prior to this judgement to actually get the orders in council changed.

For the people who may be following out there and may not understand what all the technicalities have to do with, an order in council is a decision made by the cabinet.

The minister had all of the time and all of the ability to go back and correct that problem if he really believed, as he was trying to say today, that he realized there was a problem, but he didn't, because he was hoping he wouldn't get caught on it.

That again is symptomatic of the way in which this government and this minister have been functioning. They just want to try to sneak stuff through. They just want to put things through, hoping that people will not understand, hoping that people will not be upset by what they're doing.

The reality is altogether different. The reality is that people are getting upset.

People are angry at what this government is doing in trying to impose this megacity scheme here in Metropolitan Toronto, particularly when they say, "What's the rush?" Particularly when they see that the same rules that are being applied here to Metropolitan Toronto are not being applied to the rest of the greater Toronto area in the 905 area, where there has been a call for amalgamations, a call for changes to be made, and yet there, as is the right way to do it, municipalities are being given the opportunity to come up with proposals.

Here in Metropolitan Toronto, "The minister knows best; the Premier knows best" is the attitude of this government.

Even out just not too far from here, in the Hamilton-Wentworth area, where there has been ongoing discussion about that issue, we have yet to see what the government is going to do with that. But so far, we have seen no sign that they want to try to impose a decision. If they persist in that attitude, that I will say is the correct one, because it's important that as these amalgamations take place -- we believe change needs to happen. We're not here standing up defending the status quo, whether it's in Metropolitan Toronto or anywhere else in the province.

But we believe that change, particularly when it's change that's going to be there for years to come, particularly when it's change that's going to affect the way in which local government will work not just for the next year or two but for the next 20, 30, 40 and 50 years, when those kinds of long-term changes are being made, it's incumbent upon a government that wants to be known as a good government to ensure that those changes come about only after significant discussion involving local politicians, involving the provincial politicians, the ministers responsible, and involving particularly the citizens in those jurisdictions who will have to live with the consequences.

So we say on Bill 103 that what the government is doing is wrong, and I want to say to people who may be watching this debate and to members across who are from outside of Metropolitan Toronto that this is not just a case of protecting the process in Toronto; this is not just a case of wanting to ensure that Toronto gets treated like others.

We know that there are some across this province who like the idea of people beating up on Toronto, but I want to say to people, as I think people are beginning to understand more and more, that if this government is able to impose in this draconian way these draconian measures on the largest metropolis not only in Ontario but in Canada, then where does that leave all the other smaller municipalities? Where does that leave all the other municipalities in their ability to defend their local structures, to defend that sense of local democracy that has developed over the years?

It means that if this government can impose its will against the expressed wish of the people here in the largest metropolis of Metropolitan Toronto, then it can do that and it will do that, haphazardly, as it chooses, in every other municipality that it chooses to do so, right across this province.

There is a message there that I think people are beginning to understand, and that message is coming across clearer and clearer as people are beginning to understand that this whole agenda is driven not by a desire to try to improve the governance structure, at least as it applies to Metropolitan Toronto, but is being driven primarily by the push of this government to push on to municipalities the cost of basic services that don't belong at all on the property tax system.

We know that is at the heart of what this government is doing. We know that the downloading of costs on to the property tax base, in the government's view, is simply a tradeoff for taking education off the property tax.

But I think as people are looking at this -- I'm not talking here about my own perspective on this, but I'm talking about the perspective of groups throughout the province, including groups like the board of trade here in Metropolitan Toronto, who say clearly that this is wrong, who say that putting social services like social assistance, child care, long-term care, the cost of taking care of our seniors, putting those costs on to the property tax system is wrong because those services have nothing to do with property taxes. Those services don't belong on the property tax system.

Those services belong on the provincial income tax system, and that's where they should remain.

We know that what really is driving this agenda, as I said earlier, is this government's wish, this government's continuing insistence on making the rich richer and making the rest of us poorer. That's going to be true in a dollars-and-cents practical way and it's also going to be true in terms of our sense and our collective as a society.

What we will see as a result of these actions is a government taking over the cost of education, in and of itself not a bad thing, but it will not guarantee that the same dollar amount being spent on education now will continue to be spent. The minister has refused to answer that question on numerous occasions when we've put it to him, and the reason for t