Manitoba Hansard — 12 May 1997 (Sitting 43, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-43

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 43-1:30 p.m., Monday, May 12, 1997 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political AffUiation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. - EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. - MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROC AN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

2529 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 12,1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit fo r Mammograms Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dolores Muir, Gladys Pertson, Joan Clement and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have received the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Prazn�

k) to consider immediately establishing a mobzle screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): The Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Manitoba Day Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House and copies for members opposite. It says it is a nonpolitical statement, but I will acknowledge that it is a ministerial statement, not a nonpolitical statement.

2530 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 I am pleased to have this opportunity to invite all members of this House to join with me in celebrating Manitoba's 127th birthday today. Manitoba Day is a time to reflect on who we are, where we have come from and what we have achieved. We are people with tremendous perseverance. We do not waver from our goals, and we do not give up in the face of adversity. Nothing in recent memory has tested the strength of these characteristics more than the flood of 1997. In the face of this tremendous hardship, Manitobans have excelled.

Eighty-five hundred families across southern Manitoba were forced out of their homes. Over 28,000 people were evacuated in what is our worst flood in over a century. The eyes of the world have been upon us for the last few weeks. People have responded in unprecedented ways. Thousands of Manitobans continue to volunteer. Where once they spent countless hours sandbagging, making meals, answering phones and countless other unheralded tasks, they are now helping evacuated families get back into their homes. They are helping provide emergency and victim services 24 hours a day.

They are feeding and giving shelter to evacuees. *

(1335) Throughout the hardship of the flood we have felt strongly the deep bonds that unite us as Manitobans. The last few weeks have proven without a doubt that Manitobans share a deep commitment to keep our communities as places where compassion, caring, volunteerism and community action will never be a thing of the past but a beacon to lead us into the future. With the passing of the Red River's crest in most places in Manitoba, our struggle is far from over. Severe weather conditions may create more difficult scenarios for us to cope with in the days ahead, and we must be prepared to respond.

However, we all have every confidence that the fierce pride of the people of Manitoba will not allow us to give up after we have achieved so much. Dry or wet, this is our home and we are proud of it. We are vigilant, we are organized and we are united. We are many cultures and heritages with a wide variety of languages and customs, but we are all proud to be Manitobans. Manitobans living, working and achieving together side by side have always been an integral part of our identity. Today, on Manitoba Day, it is especially important that we salute all Manitobans.

It is our combined strength, determination and hard work that has given us our greatest successes, our greatest achievements. It is also the source from which we will continue to build a stronger Manitoba, a Manitoba rich in new potential and achievement. Happy Manitoba Day. Ms. Diane McGiff ord (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I rise today to reply to the First Minister in his recognition of Manitoba Day and the 127th anniversary of our province.

First, I want to commend the government for continuing the tradition which the New Democratic Party initiated in government, that is, recognizing w-:J celebrating Manitoba Day. Manitoba Day remembers that on May 12, 1870, the Manitoba Act created the province of Manitoba, and on May 12, 1966, Manitoba's official flag was dedicated and unfurled for the first time. Consequently, the former Premier, Premier Howard Pawley, designated May 12 as Manitoba Day in recognition of the importance of this date in the history of our province.

At the same time as we celebrate Manitoba's birthday, we need to recognize that this birthday is an invented tradition which dates from 1870, but the aboriginal members of this Legislature and the aboriginal people of our province have at least 12,000 years of Manitoba history. The birthday we celebrate is a construction foisted on the history of our province, so we would do well to remember that what we call the birthday and the way in which we determine the age of our province are artifices which tell only a minute part of the story.

The real story is ancient, fuller and alive with the history of aboriginal people. We would do well today also to reflect on the ways in which the present modifies the past, deconstructs and recasts our history. Living in the present we have a duty to learn aboriginal history, bring this knowledge to the official version and take this version to our schools and universities. We have a duty, too, to understand the ethnic diversity and multicultural richness of our province and to honour the contributions that all immigrants have made and continue to make to Manitoba's economic, social and cultural life. -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2531 I want to mention a recent defining moment in Manitoba's history. I refer, of course, to the flood of the century, an event which ties us both to our predecessors who in 1826 suffered trial by water without our technology and to the people of the '50s who fought to save our city and the lands along the Red River and did it, though, with some serious loss. What characterizes the people of 1826, 1850 and 1997 is the determination to endure.

If we were to move back through the history of our aboriginal people and hear their stories of floods, that will to endure would be there, too. In short, the human spirit meets in Manitoba, and we are tied together by our common humanity. *

(1340) In conclusion, celebrating Manitoba's birthday is really celebrating Manitoba's people and honouring what William Faulkner called, and I quote, the old truths and verities of the heart without which no story is complete. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * * * Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I would like to table an additional page for the supplementary information for the Department of Labour. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 33-The Executions Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 33, The Executions Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'execution des jugements et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the message of the Lieutenant Governor. Motion agreed to. Bill 204-The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), that leave be given to introduce Bill 204, The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les obligations de developpement rural, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon 19 visitors from Treherne, Manitoba, under the direction of Mrs. Isabelle Adams. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan). We also have seated in the public gallery forty Grade 11 students from the Neepawa Area Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Bob Ferguson.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister ofNatur<'l Resources (Mr. Cummings). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Impact of Roadway Cuts Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. At public meetings and calls we have received from flood victims, people are very concerned in certain areas of the province that the Province of Manitoba and other emergency forces cut roads that impacted on the flow of water in the province.

I would like to ask the Premier: Can he inform us what roads were cut in the emergency of the last couple of weeks and what impact that had on communities in terms of their flooding?

2532 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The member will know, from having been on, I know, one of the flights that toured rural southern Manitoba, that a tremendous amount of water flowed into areas that was not anticipated in some cases, that spread out beyond what had ever been experienced in other cases.

Where there were instances, I know that judgment decisions had to be made by engineers about the potential harm that could happen when water was artificially dammed by roadways that had not existed perhaps before or that were keeping back water that would then eventually, given the water levels that were being anticipated, after building up a head of perhaps 5 feet in some cases-could break like a dam and create considerably more damage if that was allowed to happen.

So, where it was evident that those waters were going to overtop some of these man-made barriers and potentially create more damage and a faster rush of water, judgments were made along the way, and certainly it W<'5 evident that they had to cut back roads in order to prevent further washouts and further damage, not only to public property but to individual properties.

So I do not have the exact detail on it, but clearly the judgments that were made were to ensure that we did not create a worse problem by allowing an artificial backup that would then be over top and create potentially much more dangerous circumstances by allowing that to happen. *

(1345) Mr. Doer: I thank the Premier for his answer. The government, in making statements last week, talked about the choice people have to where they locate their homes. I think the Premier often talked about choosing to live in a flood plain. Some people believe that the government also had to make choices, and they may, for the greater good, have made all the correct choices; I am not disagreeing with that. But for the individual disaster for some flood victims, it may have impacted on their homes, on their businesses, on their situation, a situation that many will have to rebuild.

So I would like to ask-many people in Ste. Agathe and many people in Grande Pointe, and I am sure the Premier has heard this as well, feel that some of the action taken, however correctly for the greater good, may have impacted very, very directly on their homes, on their businesses and the flooding in their community. Was there any action on those roads that on the one hand would be good for the greater good but on the other hand would be very, very negative for the people that we were talking about last week as flood victims? Mr.

Filmon: As has been indicated, there will be several reviews of all of the actions undertaken, and we hope to ensure that there is as much objective expertise available in that review process, but to the best of our knowledge, I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that we do not know of instances in which somebody took action that later caused extensive damage to other people as a consequence.

We know that the operation of the floodway, in accordance with the regime that was set back in 1970, resulted in an upstream increase, upstream of the floodway of something under 6 inches according to the best expertise that we have available to us. Aside from that, I do not know of any other instances in which it could be said that the direct action of government created an indirect negative action for other people.

If the member has specifics of that, that would form part of the review that will be undertaken subsequent to the flood waters subsiding and people turning their attentions to all of that post mortem. Mr. Doer: I thank the Premier for that answer. Impact of Brunkild Dike Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Will the Premier be looking at the impact of the Brunkild dike which, of course, was to protect a large number of people, but obviously that affected the water flows-the Brunkild dike, the cut in roads, the blockage of some major drains, which has been confirmed by the government.

That water was obviously moving in a different direction with the moves that were made, albeit to affect a number of people. Will the government be reviewing all the impacts of those decisions on flooded communities and what impact it had on specific people?

Some people claim that they have not been flooded for literally hundreds of years, and they believe that the government action, the government choices, not their choices where to live, the government choices did indeed result in their becoming victims of these measures, as I say, taken for the greater good but having individual consequences which present tremendous challenges for those people in terms of getting back on their feet and rebuilding their lives. -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2533 *

(1350) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we are certainly very, very aware of the tremendous consequences of the flood that was experienced by the tens of thousands of people who live in rural southern Manitoba in the Red River Valley. As I have said on many occasions, our hearts go out to them for the tremendous trauma and stress that they endured, as well as the physical damage that occurred to their properties.

I think it is important for us to ensure that we at all times recognize that this was a flood that was approximately equivalent to that which was experienced in 1852; that it was 40 percent larger than the other largest floods of this century, that is, both 1950 and 1979; that with those unprecedented flows and unprecedented levels, people certainly would not have experienced anything like it in the past, nor would their properties.

I saw, for instance, contours of the city of Winnipeg that would have superimposed this level of flood, and there would have been only a couple of small areas of Winnipeg that would have been untouched under those normal circumstances. The Brunkild dike was, in effect, an extension of what was known as and is known as the west flood way dike.

If you look on the satellite photograph maps of this flood, you see the unmistakable man-made lines of the diking system that was put in place with the construction of the floodway to prevent water from going over the height of land into the La Salle River and creating devastation in the city of Winnipeg. It would have overtopped the primary dikes had that been allowed to take place, and so it was part of the design. All this did was extend it, given that we were now facing unprecedented higher levels and the diking system, that west floodway dike, was only built to a certain level.

It had to be augmented by several feet and then extended so that the contour ensured that it kept the flood waters within the Red River basin. It did not add to the flow. It was still the flow that was coming down the Red River basin, but it prevented them from spilling over artificially into the La Salle basin. All of those things, I believe, ought to be reviewed extensively by the different committees, the Manitoba Water Commission and the EMO in their analysis of how this all worked to ensure that we still have the best possible system available to protect as much of southern Manitoba as possible.

The point that I made to the member opposite on a couple of occasions last week is that we have put extensive investments into protecting certain areas of southern Manitoba. We have eight ring-diked communities that have been given extensive protection. We have many individual homes that had protection built after the 1979 flood, and we have the works that protect the city of Winnipeg. Some people chose to build outside all of those protective works even since 1979, and that is where individual choice and responsibility also comes to play. Disaster Assistance Hay Losses Ms.

Rosano Wowcbuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, as flood waters recede and people start to get their lives back together, there are people in Manitoba who will feel the consequences of the flood all summer. Ranchers along Lake Manitoba are concerned with the amount of water that has been put through the Assiniboine diversion and the impact that this flooding will have on pastures and hay losses.

Given that these people had similar losses last year and did not receive any compensation, can the minister responsible for disaster assistance give an indication today whether those people who are suffering from the unnatural high levels of water on Lake Manitoba will qualify for compensation for hay losses this year under disaster assistance? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with the unusually high waters that we had this year with the flooding, certainly there are going to be a lot of areas that are affected by high waters throughout the province.

At this point in time, I am informed that there is an insurance program available through the crop insurance program for those producers who have native hay, and I would feel comfortable that those producers who have signed up to that program will have the necessary coverage for their hay losses.

2534 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 *( 1355) Ms. Wowchuk: So the minister of disaster assistance is saying that the people along Lake Manitoba are going to have to have purchased crop insurance for their hay, but those people in the Red River Valley who did not purchase crop insurance and have lost their crop will be covered under the special program of disaster assistance. If that is the case, Madam Speaker, that is not fair. Can the minister explain if that is the case? Is there compensation for those people who did not take unseeded acreage coverage?

Is there coverage for them, but no coverage for the people who have lost hay? Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I think my First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and this government have made it abundantly clear that any program of additional assistance provided to the residents of the Red River Valley would not be part and parcel of the Manitoba crop insurance program.

The honourable member referred to my colleague the Minister of Government Services who indicated quite clearly-and I am very pleased-that the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation is able to, as a result of a decision made by this government, provide a native hay insurance program to all those who find themselves unable to harvest their hay because of high water conditions in and around Lake Manitoba and upwards along Lake Winnipegosis as well. Ms.

Wowchuk: Since the Assiniboine diversion continues to cause unusually high water in Lake Manitoba and cause problems for farmers in that area, and we see that there is not going to be compensation under this additional program, will the government today make a commitment that they will look to a long term solution to this problem on Lake Manitoba, which is an unnatural problem resulting from water coming in from the Assiniboine diversion, and ensure that people in that area do not face ongoing problems of not being able to harvest their hay and as a result have to reduce their cattle herds? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I think that the issue needs to be put into some context in relation to what is occurring on the shores of Lake Manitoba this year and last year. There were a number of factors that contributed to the high water along the shores of Lake Manitoba-not only the floodway but also other waters from Winnipegosis and natural runoff from the area to the west and all of the surrounding areas, as a matter of fact, of that lake.

I want to assure the member that, because at least half of these landowners are probably constituents of mine, this is an issue that we are examining closely to see what we can do to mitigate against the water levels on the edges of Lake Manitoba. I do want to put on the record that the estimate of the total amount of water that the flood way would have added to Lake Manitoba last year would have been a total of 6 inches, and the amount being diverted this year is somewhat less.

We do expect that the lake levels will be somewhat lower this year than last, but every attempt does need to be made for a long-term plan to mitigate against high levels. One thing I would like to add. Madam Speaker, is that the fluctuation on the lake is in fact much less than it was prior to the lake being regulated. Inf rastructure Funding Rural Road Repair Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, in last Friday's joint news release on the $14-million infrastructure funding for rural Manitoba roads, the Manitoba Finance minister mentioned the crisis faced by many rural communities this spring, and the federal minister responsible for the implementation of western Canada infrastructure programs mentioned that the flood severely damaged the transportation network.

My question to the Minister of Highways is: How many of the 40-plus roads damaged by the Red River flood are actually part of the 169 roads and streets that will receive funding-just prior to the election, I might add-under the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Agreement announced last Friday? *

(1400) Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, the infrastructure committee received applications from the municipalities, towns, villages, whoever wanted to

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2535 make an application for roads that they want to have constructed. The member is asking which ones are also flooded. That set of details will be worked out. There is certainly disaster assistance to help with the flooded roads, but these roads are in a separate program, the infrastructure program that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) announced jointly with the federal government which was initiated by requests from those towns, villages and municipalities. Highways Maintenance-Jurisdiction Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): In light of the fact that over the last few years this government has made a number of attempts to offload roads onto local municipalities, would the minister table a list of municipalities that have agreed to take over maintenance of these roads and a

schedule of implementation? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, 30 municipalities have entered agreements for three-year periods with the government of Manitoba for maintaining gravel roads summer and winter, and the specific details I can discuss with the member when we get into Estimates. We will have the whole list and the dollar value of the contract of each different municipality. Mr. Jennissen: Has the minister put further negotiations on offloading roads on hold, given the major losses facing rural municipalities in the Red River Valley due to the current flood? Mr.

Findlay: I certainly reject the member's use of the word "offloading" because no offloading was done. We opened the opportunity for municipalities to apply, to request an opportunity of signing a contract. Those that wanted to sign a contract did sign a contract. It was completely voluntary on the part of the participants in that contracting process. Laboratory/Imaging Services Privatization Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the Department of Health has privatized more health care services than probably any other jurisdiction in the country, and without much success.

Witness the supposed $10-million savings in home care, the $200 million in savings yet to be received from the Royal Bank deal with SmartHealth, the Rimer Alco deal and the mess in private personal care homes. Can the Minister of Health indicate, with respect to the MDS privatization initiative that was announced on Friday, who will be negotiating on behalf of the Province of Manitoba with respect to the contract? Secondly, who will be administering on behalf of Manitobans this contract?

Will it be the new superboard, the new laboratory board that was recommended in lab report, or will it be MDS itself that will be administering our health care lab facilities? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, every time this government or any other, I would imagine, would make any attempts to improve service and make our system more efficient, we are met with the debate about privatization. Let us remember when we are talking about laboratories, we are not talking about direct patient care, we are not talking about primary care, we are not talking about bedside care.

We are talking about the services that support our system, and if one were to take the position of members opposite, then we would be in the business of building X-ray equipment, band-aids and other things, because those are now bought from the private sector. This is not a new announcement; this process began some time ago, and we put out last December a solicitation of interest. We had a number of proposals come forward by the deadline. They were sorted.

We are beginning negotiations with one of the three finalists who had, after going through a review, what was viewed as the best proposal, and we hope we are able to conclude an arrangement with them. Specifically, we are putting together a team currently to conduct those negotiations and ultimately this contract. When it is sorted out, Manitoba Health and the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, who will be the purchaser of those services, would be the party who would administer the contract. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, does the minister not recognize the fact that the government initiatives in privatization have been an absolute failure, and in fact

2536 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 the solicitation of interest that went out on December 16 was withdrawn, completely withdrawn and replaced by a new solicitation five days later which completely changed it? So, for the public, the question of the government's handling of health care is no surprise. My question to the Minister of Health is: Can the Minister of Health indicate whether or not this process will include rural laboratories and the Cadham Provincial Lab? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, I think the member referred to an addendum that was put out some days later with additional parts to it. We are not going to get into that debate, but I think that point is worth making. The member talks about privatization. In terms of the total numbers of labs in the province, I believe, when one includes physician-owned labs, hospital Jabs, private labs and public, there are some 526 labs. The public and hospital Jabs in the city of Winnipeg, for example, account for some I 0, and rurally, I think, there are three public labs.

The vast majority of laboratory facilities in this province of all sizes are in private hands today, so Jet us not try to make this out to be something more than it is. This whole effort, again, is being made to deliver much more efficient laboratory services and better patient care to the people of the province. Water Testing User Fees Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the minister makes his own point insofar as the minister has taken the only public Jabs in the city of Winnipeg out of hospitals and privatized them, not the private, for-profit labs that have been identified as a problem.

Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister on this issue is: Can the minister indicate how long the moratorium on paying a user fee for individuals who require testing of waters, particularly flood victims, will be carried on before the user fee is applied to these individuals to do their water testing? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, what surprises me most in the comments from the member for Kildonan about the Jabs is I am sure he is well aware that the partner of MDS in their proposal is the union who represents the employees, and I have had each of the major bidders at one time or another speak to us about their proposals. I think he should visit with Mr.

Ron Wally who is involved in that process, because he recognized in the conversation that the way the world is moving in Jabs and technologies and information systems, his union, his employees recognized this was the wave of the future and wanted to be part of it. The only dinosaurs left are the members of the New Democratic Party. With respect to the specific question from the member for Kildonan, it is my understanding in the arrangements that have been made, those people who have wells that have been affected by the flood, we will cover the costs of those tests as we work through the whole process of re-entry.

So with respect to a particular date, I think that wiJI evolve as the flood waters recede and people move back into their homes, but that was the intention and the spirit in which that change was made. Disaster Assistance Appeal Process-Fees Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. As more and more Manitobans are allowed to return to their homes, one of the sad realities is that they are going to have to try to do what they can in terms of trying to define the financial costs of the flood of the century.

There is some concern in terms of-no doubt there will be points where there will be disagreements, and when there are disagreements, there has to be an appeal mechanism. My question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: Does the government have any intentions on charging flood victims in order to go through an appeal process? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with regard to the disaster assistance and the policy that is in place, it is that, when people are returning to their residences and taking a look at what kind of damages there are, they will be assigned a claims officer immediately upon receipt of their application by the rural municipality, at which time the claims officer wiJI go through in detail with -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2537 each homeowner the kinds of damages that were done within their dwelling. When that is done, that will then be evaluated by another individual costing out the dollar value of the repairs, at which time the residence owner will be made aware of that amount awarded to them for damages. If at that time the resident owner feels that the award is insufficient or not correct, they can then take this and place this before the appeals board. The appeals board charges each claimant a $25 fee for an appeal, which I do not think is unusual. * ( 141 0) Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the minister acknowledged right at the ending of his comments that in fact there is going to be a fee for those who want to be able to appeal the decision. Does the government believe that, given the circumstances, the fee is in fact necessary at this point in time? Mr.

Pitura: Well, Madam Speaker, in a lot of areas of government, whether it be local government or provincial government or federal government, if there is an appeals mechanism set up, in most cases the appellant is asked to pay a minor fee toward the cost of running the appeal, and I think that is just a standard practice that has been adopted throughout a number of years and across many jurisdictions. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister responsible does he not feel that-you are charging the deductible, you are charging a significant size of deductible of 20 percent, people are getting depreciated value, and if you now disagree, you are going to have to pay an additional fee in order to get your case appealed. Is that fair to Manitobans? Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, the disaster assistance policy and the program has been in place for some 26 years.

Over that period of time, Manitoba has seen a number of disasters, and the disaster assistance program has come into play on each and every one of those disasters. To this point in time, whether it be the flood of 1996, the flood of 1995, the flood of 1993, the forest fires of 1989, any of these disasters, the Disaster Assistance Board has approached the disaster, it has worked well for all Manitobans concerned and there has been, basically, a high level of satisfaction with the program. Man Globe Shareholders' Agreement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) and concerns the ManGlobe projects. When Karen Alcock left her job in Lloyd Axworthy's office, she became director of the project, the ManGlobe project, with a salary of $7,500 plus GST. She received $53,000 severance pay after waiting only 52 days. She received immediate employment as a consultant to and an executive assistant to MTS Advanced President Bruce MacCormack while he was still on the ManGlobe board and while MTS still holds 30 percent of the shares.

Can the minister confirm that, as part of her employment package, Karen Alcock received shares in ManGlobe, and would he table a copy of the universal shareholders' agreement? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, the member is asking me questions, quite frankly, that would be better asked of the manager ofManGlobe and/or the federal people who were involved that he has mentioned. That information is outside, really, the agreement which we participated in as it relates to the ManGlobe organization. Mr.

Maloway: Madam Speaker, the management team had to be acceptable to this government as one of the conditions that this government placed on the appointment of the management team. I would like to ask the minister: Will the minister now confirm that, as part of the universal shareholders' agreement, Karen Alcock is listed as a shareholder, and will the minister tell us the current value of the shares? Given that Michael Elder of Elderhouse paid $1.2 million for 30 percent of the shares, will the minister tell this House whether the same evaluation will be used to determine the value of Mrs.

Alcock's share holdings?

2538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 Mr. Downey: Again, with respect to the member, I do not believe the questions that he is asking, that we have the ability to get that information as it is directly involved in ManGlobe. What we asked for was the appropriate partnership and representatives on the board of directors of ManGlobe, not dealing directly with the management. So I would ask the member to ask those questions of the management of ManG lobe and/or the federal government who in fact he is making reference to. Mr.

Maloway: As I said before, Madam Speaker, the government required a management team acceptable to the government. This government approved the management team; it approves the board. Could the minister provide details of the contract that Mrs. Alcock negotiated with the federal industry department to provide services to Industry Canada and tell us how many other federal contracts Mrs. Alcock was involved in negotiating on behalf of ManGlobe when she was the project manager and a shareholder, and how did those contracts affect the value of her shares? Mr.

Downey: Unless I incorrectly heard the member, the questions that he is asking would be far better asked of the federal minister of industry, trade and technology or someone at the federal government level. We are responsible for supporting an R & D project between the Province of Manitoba and ManGlobe where there are certain terms and conditions that had to be lived up to. It is my understanding-I am informed by the department-that those activities that were supposed to be lived up to, have been. Eaton's Store Closures-Garden City Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, there has been a great deal of concern expressed regarding the potential closure of the downtown Eaton's with the impact on commercial space that that would have, but we also have a real problem in northwest Winnipeg with the announced closure early next year of the Garden City Eaton's which would put approximately 200,000 square feet of commercial space on the market. I am wondering if the government can give us an update on the closure of Garden City Eaton's. Is it going ahead? What is the status? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I believe I dealt with that last week. I have no further information as it relates to the one which the member refers to other than I do know that the downtown Eaton's store that I referred to last week has been backed up, I believe, till February of next year. I guess the question that she asked is always of the negative kind-what is happening to Eaton's. There is never a question about the jobs and the unemployment rate in Manitoba or the opening of Home Depot or a lot of the other activities that are going on in the province.

Granted we are concerned about the jobs in Eaton's. We are working in conjunction with city officials, officials from the department, from Eaton's and the general public to try and save as many jobs as possible, but there is a responsibility for the investor, as well, to carry out what is their responsibility. Chochinov Park Commercial Development Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Unconscionable trivialization of a really important issue.

I would like to ask if the minister is concerned or any member of the government is concerned that a private developer wants to take away more green space in the city of Winnipeg, i.e., Chochinov park, while at the same time there is a glut on the commercial market of commercial space in northwest Winnipeg which could be exacerbated by the 200,000 square feet of commercial space that the closure of Garden City Eaton's would put on to the real estate. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I want to make it perfectly clear that I did not in any way trivialize the issue which the member has raised, but I actually, quite honestly, did not detect a question in her last supplementary. Ms. Barrett: I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs-perhaps the Minister of Urban Affairs can answer the question-if he would convene a meeting of the city with the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet to look at the impact of the potential sale of Chochinov

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2539 park to a private company in light of the Capital Region strategy which has as one of its guiding principles the retention and strengthening of urban green spaces, not the sale of our communities' natural resources to the highest bidder. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, we are always naturally concerned about any type of development in the city of Winnipeg as to its economic benefits and the ramifications for jobs in the city.

The comment that the member mentioned regarding the development of a park would always come under the jurisdiction of the City of Winnipeg under their zoning classifications and their zoning applications, and whether it is going to be sale or it is going to be the development, would go through the natural format of public hearings which is carried on by the City of Winnipeg. There is room for the people to make presentations, make written-or make submissions on any type of application of that nature.

I would encourage the member to be there, present when the city is going through this type of process, to make that application and to make the public presentation for or against that development. *

(1420) Post-Secondary Education Tuition Fees Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education. To a greater degree than in other provinces, Manitoba students depend upon their own labour to pay university and college fees. That is, more of our students work and they work longer hours than students in other provinces, and so the relationship between the minimum wage and student fees is significant.

Could the Minister of Education confirm for the House that since 1988, since her government began, the hours required to work to pay basic arts and science fees have in fact increased from 275 to 455 hours? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I cannot confirm how many students work during the academic year versus those who gather their money for tuition during the summer or through other sources. What I can confirm is that we have amongst the most favourable tuition rates in the nation.

I can confirm that we have a learning tax credit that will return to students 10 percent of their tuition fee. I can confirm that we have allocated an extra $1 million this year for additional scholarships and bursaries. I can confirm, as well, that for arts today, going into the University of Manitoba, for example, the increase for a degree in arts is 3 percent with a learning tax credit of 5 percent. Students should not have as much difficulty this year as they did last in that particular basic faculty. Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister tell us whether she has investigated the impact of this extended requirement for paid labour because it is approximately, if we work on the basis of 20 hours of student work per week, we are going from 13 weeks to 23 weeks? Could she tell us what the impact has been, not only on students' academic work but on the efficiency of institutions, particularly the graduation rate? Mrs. Mcintosh: I can only repeat to the member that how students gather their money for tuition will vary from area to area, province to province, community to community.

What I can tell the member, which is the important point, is that we have kept fees, "we" being the institutions in Manitoba, with support from government, not from the federal government. The support from the federal government has gone essentially, because the drastic cuts in transfer payments cannot be ignored in a major challenge that provincial governments and the universities have had to face. Despite the tragedy of what the federal government has done to us, we have amongst the most favourable tuition fees in the nation.

We have tremendous access; we have programs available for access; we have programs available for scholarships and bursaries. We have a number of things in place that make the availability to attend post-secondary education in Manitoba very good compared to other provinces. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Committee Changes Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Gimli, with committee changes.

2540 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck); the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) for the member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer); the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer); the member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) for the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe); the member for St. Vital (Mrs.

Render) for the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). Motion agreed to. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) for the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway); the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) for the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale); the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), for Tuesday, May 13, 1997, for 10 a.m.

I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) for the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar); the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) for the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), for Thursday, May 22, 1997, for 10 a.m. Motions agreed to. House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a number of matters of House business, I should inform honourable members that there have been discussions amongst representatives of the parties and House leaders, and I will suggest some matters of procedure for this particular week. Firstly, that today the House adjourn at 6 p.m. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to adjourn today at 6 p.m? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: It is agreed, I believe, that the House not sit on Friday, May 16. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to not sit on Friday, May 16? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: We suggest that the House sit on Thursday, the 15th of May, beginning with Prayers at I 0 a.m. and sitting until noon for dealing with bills. Then we resume at I :3 0 that day with Routine Proceedings, Question Period and government orders and that we sit that day until six. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that the House sit on Thursday, May 15, from 10 a.m. to 12 noon, comme ncing with Prayers and consideration of bills and resume at 1 :30 p.m. with Routine Proceedings and other government business until 6 p.m. ? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: I suggest that for the period of May 12 to May 15 any recorded votes arising in the House in the standing committees or in Committees of Supply be deferred until a time agreed upon between the House leaders. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that for the period of May 12 to May 15, 1997, any recorded votes arising in the House in the standing committees or in the Committees of Supply be deferred until a time agreed by the House leaders? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: I suggest that the quorum requirement in the House, in the standing committees or in Committees of Supply be waived for the period of May 12 to May 15.

Madam Speaker: Is there agreement that the quorum requirement in the House, in the standing committees or in the Committees of Supply be waived for the period of May 12 to May 15? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Consequentially, I suggest that the number of members required to request a recorded vote in the House, in a standing committee or a Committee of Supply be reduced to one for the period of May 12 to May 15. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that the number of members required to request a recorded vote in the -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2541 House, in a standing committee or a Committee of Supply be reduced to one for the period of May 12 to May 15? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: In order to make all these arrangements work, we have agreed that the Committee of Supply ought to be divided into three parts, into the House, into Room 255 and Room 254 whenever that is possible where there is no conflict with another standing committee or other such matter, and the opposition House leader and I have signed this document.

I think it is pursuant to one of the rules of our procedures and so on, tabling that now, which sets out an order of Estimates, which as we know, gets changed quite frequently. * (1 430) Speaking of such changes, Madam Speaker, I also seek leave of the House to adjust the Estimates sequence just tabled by rearranging for Room 255 the following in the order indicated: First, Canada Manitoba Infrastructure Program; second, Canada Manitoba Enabling Vote; third, Industry, Trade and Tourism followed fourthly by Sport.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to adjust the Es timates sequence just tabled by arranging for Room 255 the following in the order indicated:

(1) The Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program,

(2) The Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote,

(3) Industry, Trade and Tourism, and

(4) Sport for today only. [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister ofl ndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Mr. Gerald McAlpine, member for the electoral division of Sturgeon Creek, be appointed chairman of a third

section of the Committee of Supply and that the duties performed by that member shall be deemed, for pay purposes only, to be the same as those of the chairperson of a standing or special committee. Motion agreed to. Mr. McCrae: For the information of honourable members, that means this afternoon, Madam Speaker, that in the House will be the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; in Room 255, Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program; and in Room 254, the Department of Energy and Mines. I move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Madam Speaker: Due to the unavailability of the Deputy Speaker, the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) will be chairing the Committee of Supply in the Chamber; the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will be chairing the Committee of Supply in Room 255; and the honourable member for Gimli (Mr.

Helwer) will be chairing the Committee of Supply in Room 254. * (144 0) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Peter Dyck): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. Does the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines have an opening statement? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): I do. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present the 1997-98 Estimates for the Department of Energy and Mines. The mission of the department is to foster investment in the sustainable development of our energy, mineral and petroleum resources and promote the efficient use of energy.

Organizationally, besides the specific responsibility of divisions and branches, the department is also responsible for a number of industry-support programs: The Mineral Exploration Assistance Program, Petroleum Exploration Assistance Program, Manitoba Potash Project, and the Acid Rain Abatement Program in Flin Flon.

2542 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 Mr. Chairman, in recent years we have been very proactive in enhancing the advantages to doing business in Manitoba. We have worked with the mining and petroleum sectors to reduce red tape, increase exploration and investment incentives and generally to make Manitoba the best place for mining and exploration in Canada. I think my review and forecast of departmental activities will bear this out, and as a new minister I am impressed with the legacy I have been given to administer and lead.

We have a very capable staff which has enthusiastically promoted Manitoba's mineral, energy and petroleum resources to attract new investment in these sectors in accordance with the principles of sustainable development. The former minister, the Honourable Darren Praznik, and I with the deputy minister have personally discussed investment opportunities in Manitoba's positive business climate with the heads of over I 00 Canadian and American companies.

The deputy minister and I will continue to take every initiative to market and showcase the advantages of exploring and investing in mining and petroleum in Manitoba. Land access and tenure issues are a priority for both the government as a whole and this department. My department has achieved significant results by introducing new policies, supporting stable tenure and resolving outstanding access issues. We are working closely with the Department of Northern Affairs, which is making progress in negotiations for settling treaty land entitlement issues in Manitoba.

Turning to specific departmental activities, I would like to start with a

summary of matters coming under marketing. The Marketing branch makes Manitoba highly visible in the mineral sector through an aggressive outreach and advertising strategy. Our objectives are to attract new exploration and development investment to Manitoba, increase attendance at the Manitoba Mining and Minerals Convention and raise client awareness of the information resources available in the department. To make it easier to access information remotely and to promote the department's programs and services, we have just established a web page and can now be reached on-line.

Clients can now access information on exploration and development, incentive programs, Manitoba properties available for option, the Manitoba Mining and Minerals Convention, publication sales and library resources to support their exploration and development activities.

In September 1996, we released a new and revised edition of Gold Deposits of Manitoba This publication gives gold explorers a compilation of known gold deposits and significant gold occurrences in the province, four full-colour maps that locate and illustrate the geological setting of the deposits, plus a comprehensive bibliography of gold-related publications for Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, for many years, the annual Manitoba Mining and Minerals Convention has provided an ideal forum for identifying, promoting and facilitating economic development opportunities for our mineral resources.

The event has grown to be one of the premier conventions of its type in Canada and occupies most of the ground floor in the Winnipeg Convention Centre. In 1996, attendance was 676 which represented a cross-section of mineral-related disciplines in industry and government. We are already preparing a program for the 1997 convention. A key component to attracting new junior, senior mining and exploration companies to Manitoba is a listing of quality mineral properties available for option.

In this regard, the Marketing branch is organizing a workshop this spring to help Manitoba property holders develop ways to better market their properties. We continue to have good news in the mining sector. Both interest and activity in mining are very strong, as shown by the following indicators. Last year, exploration expenditures totalled $40.1 million, compared with $32.6 million in 1995. A total of 692 mining claims were recorded. We issued five exploration permits covering an area of about 130,000 hectares, 46 quarry mineral leases were issued, and we issued 841 casual quarry permits.

As part of our efforts to make Manitoba the best province in Canada for mining exploration and development, we introduced the $1 0-million Mineral Exploration As sistance Program in 1995. MEAP is intended to increase exploration and stimulate activities that could lead to the development of new mines in Manitoba Priority consideration is given to grassroots -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2543 exploration, that is, exploration not associated with a producing mine. Currently, 98 projects by 42 companies are involved, of which eight are in the target area, the Northern Superior Geological Province. As of December 6, 1996, 27 new companies had been attracted to Manitoba under MEAP. This produces an increase of 82 percent in companies exploring in the province over 1995. Program all ocations were $6.4 million in financial assistance with proposed exploration expenditures at $27 million.

To date, $1.8 mill ion has been paid out in assistance and $13 .7 million reported in exploration expenditures. An interim offering for $275,000 is scheduled for May of this year and a $3-million offering in November. We will evaluate the effectiveness of MEAP and the economic benefits to Manitoba, and by next fall we expect to have the results of the evaluation which will determine the program's future. To further facilitate mineral exploration and production, we have introduced one-window permitting to help expedite projects from exploration to production smoothly and efficiently.

This simple, transparent, one stop process provides fixed time frames for application and review and ensures that projects can progress efficiently from exploration to development of a new mine. We are sensitive to the role of the prospector and the mineral industry in Manitoba. In the past five years the Prospectors Assistance Program has provided 179 projects. To date, 99 have been completed at a cost total to the province of $432,229. The program allows up to $7,500 for each approved project. In gold, Mr. Chairman, we continue to have significant good news.

The Blackhawk Mining operation at the new Farley Lake open pit has breathed a new life into Lynn Lake, which has gone through, as we all know, a difficult time in the past several years because of mine closures. Employing 110 people, Farley Lake plans to mine 63, 000 ounces of gold in 1997. Snow Lake continues to benefit from the now fully operational TVX Gold New Britannia Mine and its 270 jobs on site. The mine produced 68,500 ounces of gold in 1996 and plans to produce 85,000 ounces in 1997. In Bissett, Rea Gold is continuing a major surface and underground construction and preproduction development program.

Construction of the new surface mill was 60 percent complete. Production of ore from underground is scheduled to begin in mid-June, with 34,000 ounces scheduled for 1997. Annual production thereafter is scheduled at 80,000 ounces a year. A total of 160 employees are engaged on site. Rea's success is a tribute to the provincial exploration incentive program that in 1993 enabled Rea to raise the $3 million needed for initial exploration work at the Bissett property. It is also noteworthy that this particular operation is near to the Hollow Water Reserve which provides a number of employees to this site. *

(1450) Pioneer Metals continues to look at the feasibility of reopening the Puffy Lake gold mining operation near Sherridon. Base metal production requires the discovery of new mineral resources in order for Manitoba to be competitive in the future. This, Mr. Chairman, is another reason why MEAP and the geological survey work we are undertaking are so important for the future of our mining industry. In total, 19 companies are actively exploring for base metals in Manitoba. Tantalum Mining Corporation continues with a strong production presence at its Tanco Mine near Lac du Bonnet.

On the exploration front, lnco continues delineation drilling of the Pipe Deep nickel deposits south of Thompson. A development decision for this project is expected in 1997 upon completion of the drilling. Falconbridge continued to focus exploration on Will iam Lake in the Thompson nickel belt, where exploration drilling discovered very promising nickel mineralization in 1996. A substantial drilling program started in 1995 will continue over the next few years. Cominco conducted geophysical surveys and drilling on properties on the southern extension of the belt and

2544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1997 Hudson Bay Mining obtained encouraging results from the deep drilling of the Callinan copper-zinc mine near Flin Flo n. Mr. Chairman, our government is strongly committed to the rehabilitation of depleted gravel pits, and the program my department implemented in the spring of 1993 is operating very successfully. Since then, 361 gravel pits have been rehabilitated, covering 1,400 hectares at a cost of $2.3 million. In Geological Services, a new Intergovernmental Geoscience Accord was signed in September at the Mines Ministers Conference in Yello wknife.

The accord outlines the respective and complementary roles the provincial and federal Geological Survey organizations will play in the future. Bilateral accords between Ottawa and provincial survey organizations will have established 3 to 5 year work plans addressing regional needs. Manitoba's bilateral accord was signed in December 1996, and a work plan involving contributions from the federal and provincial geological surveys is being developed.

Federal-provincial contributions, principally through two new national mapping projects in the Northern Superior Province and around Winnipeg, will entail federal expenditures averaging $1.3 million over the next three years. During 1997, Geological Services will publish new maps, geological reports and electronic databases on CO-ROMs stemming from the first federal-provincial National Mapping Shield Margin Project in the Flin F1on-Snow Lake region.

The flood of new information and exploration ideas stemming from this highly successful initiative has stimulated renewed exploration for gold and base metals and has attracted new companies to invest in the region feeding the Flin Flon smelter. A major new project has been initiated in the Thompson Nickel Belt where access to hitherto unavailable exploration drillcore and confidential information is being used to develop a new geological compilation for the region, the first in over 25 years. By 1997, we will again focus on new geological mapping programs and geochemical surveys in northeastern Manitoba.

Operation Superior is a five year commitment to attract and assist the search for new gold, base metal and rare element deposits in this relatively underexplored part of the province. Multimedia geochemical surveys will centre on the eastern part of the region. Geological mapping wiii continue in the Stull and Kistigan Lakes region, as well as Knee Lake and Oxford Lake. Technical assistance will continue for the titanium/vanadium/iro n project at Cross Lake.

Geological investigations in the Mafeking area in 1996 will provide baseline information supporting Birch Mountain Resources of Calgary in exploring for gold. In southern Manitoba, an inventory of near-surface sources of crushed stone, dolomite and dimension stone in the Winnipeg region will be made as part of the Capital Region Study. A second federal-provincial mapping project wiii boost efforts to develop a digital geoscience database for southeastern Manitoba and conduct more in-depth studies into the hydrogeology of the region. Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased to note that as of February 1997, the excellent co-operation between the federal and Manitoba Geological Surveys has led to four of the 11 new NA TMAP programs in Canada being conducted in our province. This highly essential influx of technical expertise keeps Manitoba at the forefront of new database development in support of mineral exploration by the private sector. Mr.C hairman, 1996 was an exciting year in Manitoba's oil patch. Expenditures on exploration for the year are estimated at $10.6 million, more than double the $4.4 million spent on exploration in 1995.

Thirty geophysical exploration programs and 28 exploratory wells were drilled in 1996, making it the most active year for oil and gas exploration in the last 10 years. The introduction of the Petroleum Exploration Assistance Program in 1996 was an important factor in encouraging exploration in Manitoba. PEAP provides assistance to companies of up to 20 percent of the cost of eligible exploration activities. The program has been very well received by industry and has been -

May 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2545 instrumental in attracting some of Canada's most dynamic and successful oil companies to Manitoba. Under PEAP, 23 new field wildcat exploratory wells have been drilled resulting in the discovery of up to nine new oil pools. This exploratory activity has supported our local oil field service industry and has led to the drilling of a number of follow-up development wells. The continuing development of the Manitoba Oil and Gas Well Information System has also been an important factor in increasing exploration activity.

Improvements in the breadth and timeliness of data available digitally from the system has further encouraged oil industry geologists to develop exploration prospects in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, one ofthe results of our government's work with the petroleum industry is that Manitoba has the most responsive government regulatory practices in western Canada. A prime example of this is turnaround time for application for a well licence. In Manitoba, once all required information has been submitted, a well licence is routinely issued within one working day.

By comparison, in Alb erta, applicants routinely must wait one to two weeks to obtain a licence. Mr. Chairman, 1997 is shaping up to be an even more exciting year than 1996. Geophysical and drillling activity over the first two months of the year was the highest in over 10 years. In February, we completed the results of our largest Crown oil and gas lease sale ever, with over $3. 9 million in new revenue collected. In 1997, we will concentrate on providing quality service to clients investing in Manitoba's oil and gas potential.

In addition, we will continue to evaluate our petroleum fiscal policies and drilling incentive programs to ensure our business climate is competitive. The Petroleum and Energy Branch will promote Manitoba investment opportunities at a number of technical meetings and industry trade shows. This includes hosting a one-day open house in Calgary to showcase Manitoba opportunities. The branch's energy activities have focused on programs designed to promote economic investments in energy efficiency and alternative energy technology, including co-ordination of the Manitoba R-2000 program.

A total of 21 new homes were completed under the program in '96-97 compared with 15 in '95-96 and just one in '94-95. Our target for this fiscal year is enrolling 60 new homes. Working with Government Services, the branch implemented the pilot phase of the Manitoba Government Buildings Initiative. The program involves the energy retrofit of 78 government-owned buildings. It is designed to be financed over 10 years out of the energy savings realized in these buildings. After all buildings have been retrofitted, estimated energy savings are $1.8 million per year.

The branch will continue technical and administrative participation in the Manitoba Government Buildings Initiative. This year six representative buildings will be retrofitted, and the funding mechanism for doing the remaining 71 buildings will be finalized. We will also investigate the feasibility of incorporating energy-efficient features in buildings constructed and operated by the Department of Northern Affairs. *

(1500) The branch will continue to work with Natural Resources Canada and the Manitoba Association of School Trustees on the school bus driver training initiative. If this pilot project proves to be economically viable, it will be expanded to all Manitoba school divisions in future years. We are also developing a proposal to encourage the production and use of ethanol as a fuel substitute in Manitoba. Besides its environmental benefits, use of ethanol as a fuel provides a market for Manitoba grain and reduces the use of imported refined petroleum products.

Another major initiative scheduled for this year is raising the department's profile as an important source of impartial information on energy efficiency and alternative energy. This will include developing an inventory of publications that cover all facets of energy efficiency and alternative energy. We will also investigate the use of the Internet as an effective means of distributing this information. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, we are confident that our policies, programs, services and incentives will

2546 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 97 enhance Manitoba's position as the province to be in for activity in mining and petroleum. I want to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to the employees of Energy and Mines for their hard work and commitment to providing quality services to our customers. To the official oppos ition critic, I look forward to a dialogue during this period of Es timates which will serve to further enlighten the people of Manitoba. Thank you. The Acting Chair person (Mr. Dyck): We thank the Minister of Energy and Mines for those comments.

Does the official oppos ition critic, the honourable member for St. James, have any opening comments? Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Very briefly. The Acting Chairper son (Mr. Dyck): Thank you. The honourable member for St. James, please. Ms. Mihychuk: I want to thank the minister for his opening comments and look forward to going through the department in some detail this year. We have seen some changes in the department. The Geochemistry Lab, for example, has been privatized, and five positions have been lost in that sector. I will be asking some questions as to the reasons for that decision.

I did receive calls of concern from prospectors and small mining companies who had used the lab as an important source of information and aid. In addition, the over all theme of the department has moved from what I w ould call a hands-on approach, where it focused on providing geologists to go out into the field to access information to provide a foundation of information which allowed exploration companies then to move on that and target in, into a more marketing approach based on glitz and glossy paper rather than substance.

So I am going to be questioning, again, the focus of the department which has deemed the priority marketing rather than substance, I would argue, and that is putting more geologists into areas such as the Superior project. I think that, indeed, is a wise decision, to go into the Superior Province. It is difficult to access. It has generally been untouched, and I believe that is the goal of government, to provide that sort of foundation so then it can stimulate industry into making those moves into areas that otherwise would have remained untouched. The marketing sector has grown by leaps and bounds.

I will be asking the minister whether this was indeed true value. Many geologists in sectors in the mining field are quite well aware of the mining potential in Manitoba, and I am going to ask whether we have not perhaps topped out the need for marketing. The geologists involved in many of the companies know how to access materials. Some of our maps are outdated, and the question would be: Are we trying to promote outdated maps, or is it time to update the actual geological information? So I think that those are some questions, that I am going to be questioning the overall purpose and direction of the department.

When we look at, for example, the estimates of revenue that were presented during the budget for the fiscal year ending March 31. 19 98, we see that mining revenues have dropped dramatically. In 1996-97, estimated revenues are $400 million. The estimated revenue from mining. mining tax, has dropped to $15 million. That is indeed a very significant and unfortunate trend. We will be exploring with the minister whether indeed these programs, the MEAP, and the emphasis on marketing is in fact producing what Manitobans hoped would occur and what this government hoped would occur.

In addition, I am going to be questioning the petroleum subsidy, the grants, which I understand are primarily being used by some fairly well established oil companies, and whether the goals of that grant are being met. Are we attempting to subsidize large oil companies, or are we attempting to perhaps stimulate our own Manitoba oil companies into further exploration? So I will be looking for some direction in that area and how this grant program in petroleum fits the guidelines or the principles of sustainable development.

This year's flood of the century, as it is called, has highlighted the value of surficial materials as we saw tons of clay being used in the Brunkild dike, and we saw tons and tons of sand and aggregate being used for sandbags. It is ironic, I believe, that we see the City of Winnipeg contemplating selling that very gravel pit, -

May 12 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2547 where the sand came from, next year. We are indeed fortunate in some ways to have the flood this year, otherwise we would have had to pay substantially more for that material which saved basically the city of Winnipeg. I will be discussing some of those issues of resource uses and what is available for this city of Winnipeg in terms of aggregate material. There was a recent concern that Birds Hill would be opened up to mining, as it is a large source of aggregate material but also provides a significant recreational area for the city and surrounding areas.

In addition, I wish to explore the growing trend of urban sprawl, particularly to the north of the city. Significant limestone and construction-type material is fairly accessible when you head north of the city of Winnipeg towards Stonewall where we see several quarries. With the virtually unlimited expansion of the city of Winnipeg beyond the Perimeter, which we feel is particularly unfortunate, this will indeed have an impact on perhaps the availability of accessing those resources either though direct sterilization or conflict between homeowners and the industry which wishes to exploit those materials.

In addition, I will be looking at the energy sector of the department, a component that we have seen dramatic decreases in staff and ability to address the issues of energy and look at whether indeed the time has not come for a renewal of the government's commitment to energy efficiency and energy retrofitting. The minister does point out that there can be significant savings, and I will be delving into that area as well.

So it will be very interesting to hear the minister's comments, and as we delve into Energy and Mines, I will challenge the minister as I did the previous to perhaps spend a day out in the field with a geologist who is doing real work for Manitobans and experience Manitoba's nature and exploration as it really is. I am sure that the department would be more than willing to outfit the minister and guide him in a day-long trip. I think he would enjoy it very much. Thank you very much. *

(1510) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present, please. Mr. Newman: Most of these faces would be familiar faces to Ms.

Mihychuk, however I think there may be one new face here: Michael Fine, my deputy minister; Garry Barnes, the executive director of Administrative Services; Craig Halwachs, the manager of Financial Services; Jim Crone who is new, and Jim may be just single, the new director of Marketing; Bob Dubreuil, director of Petroleum & Energy; Art Ball, director of Mines; and Dave McRitchie, director of Geological Services. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We thank the minister for those introductions. We will now proceed to line 23 .l. (b )(1 ), that is Salaries and Employee Benefits $271,200. Ms.

Mihychuk: It is going to be my goal to basically go through the department page by page. I would like to start actually on page 3 which highlights the mission of the department. There were some very specific goals, targets established in 1993. Can the minister inform us how the department is doing in respect to these goals? As we can see, one goal is to increase mineral exploration in Manitoba by 40 percent, oil production by 20 percent, improve energy efficiency by 5 percent, and decrease the proportion of imported refined petroleum products by 5 percent. Mr.

Newman: First, with respect to increasing mineral production in Manitoba by 40 percent, it is noteworthy that the base line is 1993 and the benchmark figure was 27.4 million in 1993; in 1994, 40.5 million; 1995 , 32.6 million; in 1996, 40.1 million. The target for the year 2000 is therefore 41.1 million, which would be a 50 percent increase even in excess of the mission target. With respect to oil production the benchmark is 1993, 706.5 million; 1994, it was 664.5 million; 1995, 857.8 million; 1996, 843. 8 million and the target for the year 2000, 847 .8 million.

2548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May I2 , I9 97 Improving the efficiency of energy use in Manitoba, the base line figure 1993 is I 0.64 megajoules in relation to a dollar value of GOP. The figure for I9 94 is I 0.59. The preliminary figure for I9 95 is I 0. 71, and 1996 is not yet available. The target for the year 2000 is 1 O. II . With respect to the decreasing proportion of refined petroleum products, the base-line figure for I9 93 is 40.9 percent; in I9 94, 41.1 percent. A preliminary figure for I9 95 is 41. 2 percent; I9 96 is not available yet, and the target for the year 2000 is 38.9 percent. Ms.

Mihychuk: Just for clarification. The imported refined petroleum products number for '95-was it 4I .2? An Honourable Member: 4I .2. Ms. Mihychuk: Looking at those numbers, it is fairly clear that the challenge lies in the second, the third and fourth goals to improve efficiency and energy use and to reduce import of refined petroleum products. Can the minister tell us what strategies we are going to use to meet those targets? Mr.

Newman: I think I described in some detail in my introductory remarks one of the things that we are doing in terms of efficiency of energy use, and that is in relation to public buildings. With respect to the theme of the other direction, it would be in terms of education. We are always looking for an opportunity to promote our R-2000 program, for example, and in that connection we are looking with some hope that, for example, as we are doing flood damage repairs that people will see fit with encouragement to upgrade the energy efficiency of their homes and buildings.

In fact, we wrote a letter encouraging the City of Winnipeg and their incentive program to look at introducing some special incentive or relating the incentive to the R-2000 program. I also made reference to the school bus program in my opening remarks and an attempt to expand that program. We are looking forward to doing that in terms of the specifics of activities that we engage in as a branch in facilitating decision making about investments, about reducing energy use, the kinds of information services that we have or activities.

We provide an energy advisory service with a toll-free number and qualified branch staff to answer or direct inquiries from the general public and the construction industry on ways to reduce energy costs. We train builders and the general public through the R-2000 builder training new home workshops and home energy saver workshops. We develop booklets and pamphlets and fact sheets dealing with individual energy efficiency considerations. As I have indicated, we administer the Manitoba R-2000 program on behalf of the Manitoba partners to that program.

In the retrofitting program, we provide administration and technical support to the Manitoba Government Buildings In itiative designed as a self-financing program to perform energy retrofits in all Government Services-owned buildings. * (1 520) We are also encouraging the expansion of that program to other public buildings that are not directly owned by the provincial government, and those are schools, hospitals and other public buildings under the authority of others.

We provide technical support for demonstration projects to evaluate effectively the school bus driver training on energy efficient driving techniques. In terms of alternative energy, we have activities in support of the program designed to develop or encourage the development of alternative energy sources. They include development policies and proposals designed to increase the production and use of ethanol as a gasoline supplement in Manitoba, assisting gas suppliers and promoting conversion of gasoline-powered vehicles to natural gas.

Natural gas, although not indigenous to Manitoba, its use as a transportation fuel is seen to provide some economic environmental benefits. We prepare and distribute fax sheets on alternative energy resources, including wind, solar and photovoltaics, and we have indicators for the program that are the indicators which we have already discussed. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain to us what the program is for the public buildings, energy efficiency program? What type of program is available for public buildings? Mr.

Newman: Direct provincial government buildings, or do you mean buildings outside the provincial government? -

May 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2549 Ms. Mihychuk: It was my understanding that the department is offering some direct-energy efficiency programs for public buildings. I would be interested in that, and then I am going to be moving into those other areas that are somewhat gray, and that is the, for instance, public school buildings. So I would like to know what the program is for public buildings first. Mr. Newman: Just so I can develop a framework for the answer which I want to be accurate.

We would take the Woodsworth Building, for example, and indicate specifics of the programming that we have put in place there as a pilot project. Ms. Mihychuk: Absolutely. That is a good example. So you would take a specific building, and the Woodsworth Bu ilding would be fine as an example. Mr.

Newman: The focus, the concentration is on changes to the lighting system, and I can invite you and, in fact, I do invite you and other members of the Legislature to attend in my office because I wanted to find out exactly what was being done and wanted to have a demonstration in my own office so that I could show to people who came into it the kind of thing that was being done in the W oodsworth. So I have replaced fluorescent lighting with a new type of more costly initially but cost-saving kind of fluorescent lighting.

I also have, rather than the standard light bulbs in lamps, halogen lights in those, and the spotlight, the pot lights are also halogen lighting. Through this means, it is believed that the savings in the Woodsworth Building are projected to annualize at $66,670. Ms. Mihychuk: That is a significant amount of savings. Can the minister tell us what proportion of savings-! guess I am looking at what is the payback period. Also, in addition to that, who provides the up front funding for the changing of the light structures or light bulbs? What else is included? It is light fixtures. Would it be windows, insulation?

How extensive do we go in a building? Mr. Newman: Some of the controls for heating and cooling are included, but not the insulation. The total cost of the Woodsworth pilot project was $3 84,593 . So, with the annual savings of$66,670, it is something in the order of six years. Ms. Mihychuk: The up-front funding for those renovations came from the department, or how was it worked out? Mr. Newman: The up-front funding came from the following sources: The Department of Government Services $269,593, Sustainable Development Innovations Fund $1 00,000, and the Department of Energy and Mines $15,000. Ms.

Mihychuk: Up front funding, is that on a loan basis or is that a direct grant? Mr. Newman: This is directly out of Appropriations. Ms. Mihychuk: I want to congratulate the department for pursuing this program. We know that there can be significant savings, and the payback in this building is five or six years. I am familiar with public structures and here we go into my favourite topic and that is public schools-that we could see dramatic improvements in energy efficiency.

Many of the older schools unfortunately have not renovated the physical structure of their buildings for several years, and that has been a matter of priorities as they look to programs rather than the building itself. Many schools still have single pane windows, many with wood sills that are rotted away, actually wide open, so the air exchange is enormous in the building, never mind extremely uncomfortable for the people in the classrooms.

Of course the biggest obstacle there is a program which would allow that type of renovation and upgrading. * (1 530 ) Has the department or the mtmster considered providing a funding vehicle to allow these essentially public buildings to be renovated and take advantage of the new technology that we, indeed, have available and is presently in the minister's office? Mr.

Newman: While I get specifics as to exactly what is being done there, I want the honourable member to know that I treat this issue very seriously and am very interested in seeing ingrained in the decision-making process, in terms of building maintenance and repair and improvements, a more energy conservation consciousness. Just to show the degree of seriousness on that, we are looking for a continuing source of

2550 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 1997 funding and support for these kind of initiatives, and I might say out of petroleum revenues, so it is a more dedicated kind of situation that is under consideration now. That is all I can say about that. In order to build this into systemic decision making, one has to do that, so we want to do that. We believe that creating an example with our own buildings is the best way to gain credibility, so that then you can use your influence to induce others, if you can do that with some funding incentive as well.

It is noteworthy, I think, that a funding incentive was provided to our department by both the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and Government Services in that kind of proactive way to prove a point. So I appreciate your point. The specifics that I have is that we are still in the pilot stage and that we have not yet developed sufficient proof or evidence to make the case to others, but we are confident that we are on the right track and that the results are going to be quite persuasive.

They have been persuasive enough internally that we are now proceeding with five or six additional buildings in this budget year within government. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister elaborate on the school bus program? Mr. Newman: The school bus driver training demonstration program is a joint federal/provincial school division program which promotes efficiency in the school bus transportation sector. It was initiated in Manitoba in September 19 96 and will run for a period of two years.

As part of the program, sophisticated on board monitoring equipment will be installed on I 0 buses in five school divisions to record baseline data including engine RPM, vehicle speed, braking time, idling time and fuel consumption. An independent consultant will then deliver seminars to the appropriate school bus drivers and post-training data will be monitored and compared to pre-seminar data. The Manitoba Association of School Trustees has negotiated an agreement with Natural Resources Canada for the two-year program.

If expanded to all school divisions, the program has the potential to achieve an estimated annual fuel saving of $800,000. The current status is that the Department of Energy and Mines is contributing $1 3,50 0 in the second year ofthe program, that is, the current fiscal year, and Natural Resources Canada is contributing $1 7,500 to the program in the 1996-97 fiscal year, the immediately completed year. The Manitoba Association of School Trustees is contributing $5,500 to the program .

MAST has reviewed and signed the contract between itself and Manitoba Energy and Mines and data will be provided by MAST and technical support will be provided by Manitoba Energy and Mines. Technical data acquired from the program will be analyzed to measure the positive effects of driver education on fuel consumption of the Manitoba school bus fleet. The Department Energy and Mines is currently analyzing rural and urban winter data collected by the on-board monitoring equipment. An interim report on the project is expected to be completed soon. Ms.

Mihychuk: Does the minister have information as to energy efficiency of school buses that are significantly aged? We in Manitoba have a significant number of buses that are well beyond 13, 15 years of age. They were bought in '83, '84, and '85, and we can expect to see them on the road for some time in the future. Energy efficiency techniques have improved not only in buildings but also in vehicles. Can you tell us what sort of changes we have seen in energy efficiency just through newer, more energy-efficient school buses? Mr. Newman: I would have to take that question as notice.

I do not have that data here but, if you wish, we can provide that to you and will do so. Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, I would be very interested. In fact, the Manitoba fleet needs significant replacement. Had we kept the policy of replacing at 12 years, and then it was extended to 13 years and then extended to 15 years of road life, but we would have to replace a significant number of buses. It is almost ironic when I look at the buses on the Brunkild dike. One almost questions whether they are going to go back onto the roads.

We have a significant number of very aged buses and the energy efficiency of these machines has to be of - -

May 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 1 question. When we look at one department deciding to, again, as I believe a budget issue, they did not feel able to replace the bus fleets so they looked at perhaps extending the usage, but the costs to Manitoba taxpayers are incurred in one way or the other. I sense from the minister a commitment to energy efficiency and ask him to review whether it is rather, as I suspect, shortsighted that the use of these buses beyond the ages of 12 , 13 , 15 years becomes indeed very costly to the school division and ultimately to the taxpayers.

Doing some research on the issue, many companies that lease out buses consider them unviable after seven or eight years and divisions can purchase the school bus for $1 ,000 at that point, after their lease period, so the maintenance costs and the energy use is incurred on school divisions rather than the province, but it is all one taxpayer.

So I do look forward to seeing the information the minister puts together and hopefully his arguing the point in his position as a caucus member that perhaps the investment in school buildings and in school buses will actually save Manitobans tax money and it would be a wise investment to do that replacement. * (1 540) Mr. Newman: Thank you for that, I think, very constructive question, and I think it would be relevant and appropriate for my department to seek the considerations so far as they relate to energy conservation and the decisions that you have referred to in change in the policy in another department.

I think and agree with you that decision making in some cases has to be integrated so that in trying to accomplish an objective in one department we do not have it defeated by the decision making in another department. I will have my department follow up on that and see if we can put together some useful information, for the benefit of your colleagues and mine, in making appropriate decisions in this area to fulfill the kind of objective that, I indeed, do support and obviously you do as well. Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to now move on to the next line item.

This is Executive Support, and here I would like to ask some questions as to the expenditures and the commitment of the department that was actually not in this fiscal year, I understand, but for the reallocation, the moving expenses and the other information that was raised in the House about the deputy minister. So I would ask the minister to outline what costs were incurred by the Department of Energy and Mines in the transfer or the acquiring of the deputy minister in his new position. I believe it was '95 . Mr.

Newman: With a certain amount of tongue in cheek, I will take issue with the use of the word "acquired." The philosophy of any government is not to treat any human being as a commodity, and we do not own anybody. However, having said that in jest, the specifics are that the relocation costs totalled $69,985.3 1 out ofthe 19 95-96 Public Accounts figure of $74,734.77.

A Freedom of Information request led to the disclosure of the breakdown of that relocation cost figure, and the breakdown is 12 parts which I will cite in an abbreviated way: Car rental $12 6.3 1; expense account $232.20; temporary accommodations $1 ,300; another expense account charge of $539.87; another expense account charge of $1,18 6.61; another expense account charge of $749.99 and six Royal LePage invoices broken down as $1 ,909.88, $2,748.37 , $45,7 17 .42, $14 0, $250 and $15 ,084.66. I have a more detailed breakdown of each of those expenses, if you wish it, explaining what each of them are.

Would you like me to carry on, Ms. Mihychuk? Ms. Mihychuk: My colleague the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has arrived, and I would ask the committee's indulgence to defer this item and tum over questioning to Mr. Ashton and then perhaps return to this a little bit later. Mr. Newman: If you are prepared to indulge your colleague, I am certainly prepared to indulge your colleague. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson, certainly I appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions in this area, a number of issues obviously relating very directly to northern Manitoba, certainly to my constituents.

I want to focus in on the area of energy use. I note that the mission statement outlined on page 3 of the Supplementary Estimates points to the goal of improving the energy use in Manitoba by 5 percent. We have had some ongoing debate over

2552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 97 targets and achievability of targets in terms of energy conservation and efficiency over the last number of years. I note that we had some discussion a few years ago, prior to this minister being elected actually, and the committee dealing with Manitoba Hydro. (Mr.

Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, m the Chair) I wanted to ask the minister in terms of what the current situation is and whether there has been any consideration by the department of working with Manitoba Hydro at some of the kinds of suggestions that have been made for, for example, home and retrofit programs.

The reason I am raising this is because, certainly looking at it as an economist, I find that one of the problems you often deal with when you are dealing with, say, comparing the construction of a hydro dam, where you have the ability to raise funds and amortize the dam over a period of several decades, when you compare that, for example, to decisions made by individual homeowners or property owners, small business people, you obviously are in a different situation unless you are able to have energy efficiency added, say, to a mortgage.

You are not likely to get the period of the amortization of the loan extended probably beyond the normal three, four, five years. There has been a history of programs that have been provided which provide low-interest loans. I know in my own situation I just recently took advantage of the electrical modernization program to put in an air exchanger in my home in Thompson. I can say, quite frankly, I would not have done that if it had not been for the loan portion being available up front, just because of the simple capital cost.

Obviously, when you are sitting around looking at something that costs $2,600, a straight cash purchase, no matter how you finance it in your day-to-day activities, you put it in a different category than you would as a long-term investment.

So I wanted to focus particularly on some of the suggestions made by the carpenters union, I believe it was, a number of years ago, that had detailed a submission that made the argument regardless of what you do with other forms of energy conservation-and I realize that the doors and windows programs have perhaps been fairly well taken up, and I know there has been some debate about whether they are feasibly economically beyond the point that they have been developed thus far-but I want to focus on whether there is not some way of doing some major retrofits that would get into significant changes of structure, in some cases through low-interest loans that could help achieve not only the 5 percent, an even greater amount.

I just want to finish off before giving the minister a chance to respond by pointing to the example of a lot of northern communities. I know of houses in northern Manitoba where there is virtually no insulation. I can take you to townhouses in Thompson where that is the case. Now, what happens is the tenants are in a position where they are paying the energy bills not the landlord, so there is no incentive on the landlord to fix it up. The tenants, many of whom are on fixed incomes, do not have the money to fix it up.

Besides, it is not their own premise, so there is not the payback even if they could pay it back within a number of years. You will have townhouses where people are paying $400-$500 a month during the winter for heating costs. It is a simi lar thing in remote northern communities. Many of the houses that were built there have totally inadequate insulation, especially the older houses.

You will often find, for example-I happen to feel that energy rates, hydro rates should be equalized across the province-but even if that was done, it would only affect things to a certain percentage in northern communities. * (1 550) The biggest root in a lot of cases is the simple fact that people, once again, often do not own their own homes, and even if they do, do not have the ability to fix it up. So there is a need to deal not only with homeowners but to deal with landlords.

By landlords, I use that in the broader definition, because, for example, CMHC owns many of the units, operates many of the units in northern Manitoba. I want to ask if there has been an official response to that proposal from the carpenters, and whether the department has looked at ways of using creative financing to deal with these kind of situations, because, quite frankly, I see a large amount of waste. You have to recognize, again, that the North has high heating costs. We do not have natural gas as an alternative, so -

May 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2553 it is basically, largely hydro with a small percentage of propane consumed. You see it that much more. But I would suspect even in Winnipeg that is the case, perhaps on a lesser degree, that there are many houses out there that just do not fit the conditions, are not in keeping with the current standards in terms of insulation. I guess the question I throw to the minister: Are there any creative ways he is thinking of, of dealing with that problem? Mr.

Newman: I believe the new national building code standards are going to contribute to the solution, in that my limited understanding of the improvements in that area will raise the standards higher. I do not have the specifics at my fingertips, but I think that that kind of solution is a very important one, because that is a universal, mandatory standard which is imposed on anyone that is going to build a building in the province of Manitoba. As you spoke, it certainly was occurring to me, and I will give you full credit for raising the idea; it is not mine.

But I think in co-operation with the MMF, the Manitoba Metis Federation, MMF Inc., and the federal government and the communities who benefit from the housing services and responsibility for housing turned over to MMF might in conjunction with this department and Northern Aff airs perhaps come up with some systemic ways to encourage practices which would address the kind of problem you are talking about.

I know that we do have a commitment as part of our plan for this year to look at all of our fairly meagre $2.6-million capital expenditures in Northern Affairs to make sure that what we do builds up to a responsible energy conservation standard, but I think going beyond that and multiplying that by co-operative action with the people responsible for housing and maintenance and repair is a worthy one, and educating members of the community and mayors and councils in northern communities and even the northern round-table kinds of people is a very sensible kind of way to implement the kind of thinking that you are talking about.

It has to be part of the decision-making process as we discussed earlier. I will just invite my officials to find out whether there is anything specific that I might add in response. Maybe you can verify this idea which may be more than an idea because it comes right from Thompson, and that is the idea of a municipal council actually passing a by-law that all new housing be built to R- 2000 standard. That is the kind of thing that is being at least speculated about in talking about systemic ways of introducing it. There is no more mandatory way than to do it in the form of a local law.

But, as I say, you may know more about that than I, but I do not have any more specifics at this time other than the general response I gave you specifically in terms of my department's involvement. In passing, I do not want to get us off track, but, certainly, I know that Hydro, through its Power Smart programs, is supporting energy efficient retrofits, and to your colleague, before you were here, I indicated the way that our department discovers and then takes advantage of opportunities to build into decisions of others, improve standards of energy conservation.

One ofthose is the City of Winnipeg with its plan to have a tax incentive for new housing. We are trying to partner into that so that there is an incentive built right into that inducement, as a condition of the incentive that they meet standards ofR-2000 insulation, as I say a condition of getting the benefit.

So we are looking at all those opportunities, and, frankly, any time that anyone from the North comes up with an idea for you and you pass it through to the department, I can assure you that they will treat it with the attention that it merits, given that we have a serious commitment to improve energy efficiency. Mr. Ashton: Well, focusing in on the new housing component, there are a couple of things that are happening in the North right now which I think are of significant interest. One is the use of log housing in a number of communities.

Quite frankly, this has been something that has been kicked around for years. Part of it has been the need for people who had experience building log houses, and I understand that we are talking about not cabins, but houses. People tend to have this idea of a small trapper's cabin. We are talking now about some of the new log structures as being every bit as large as a regular house and significantly more energy efficient in some cases,

2554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 97 certainly as compared to the standard suburban bungalows that we have had constructed. I always find it paradoxical that I will travel into-if you go to Gil lam, for example, and drive around Gill am, Gil lam could be just plucked out of the city of Winnipeg. The housing is identical; the lots are identical. I remember a few years ago, it being a Hydro community, all of a sudden the new houses got gazebos, and what was interesting was I noticed the old houses six months later got gazebos too.

That was because everybody living in the older housing complained that the new houses had gazebos. So everybody living in Hydro housing in Gilla m has a gazebo. Now, what relevance that has to the North is, I guess, up for debate, but people seem to be happy with their gazebos. Mr. Newman: I must interject for a moment. I thank you for that, because, having visited Gillam, I was wondering why there were so many gazebos. Thanks for explaining that to me. Mr. Ashton: It is one of the last remaining company towns.

So, you know, if one person gets it, everybody gets it, which is fair, but it does lead to some strange results. In terms of log structures, I would point to a number of communities where this has happened. I believe there are about half a dozen communities now. In a lot of cases it is a matter of getting the expertise, and I would point to Nelson House, for example, which looked at the cost for the development agency in Nelson House of a regular structure versus a log structure and found much to their surprise a log structure was cheaper.

So you will go in and you will see these standard sort of government-type buildings, and you have this beautiful log structure across from the band office. It was largely because they were able to get some expertise in from British Columbia. So I would strongly recommend that, because the sad

part is there is still a lag time. This is happening, but it is a small percentage and a lot easier for suburban houses. Ten, 20, 30 years ago that may have been understandable when we were bringing the housing stock, but we have learned a lot of lessons over the last number of years, and one of the biggest problems in a lot of cases is that the houses not only do not match the climate, but they do not match the usage patterns in aboriginal communities. * (1 600) There is a totally different cultural outlook on housing. You often have much more of a demand for open spaces. You end up with humidity problems.

You know, people are used to having a stove with a kettle of tea on. The houses tend to be very humid, overheated. It is reduced somewhat because of better quality, but in a lot of cases what you do is you take a standard suburban house and you work around it. So I want to sort of agree with the minister that there is a lot that can be done. You mentioned that things can be done in urban communities. I agree. In the North-believe you me, if I was constructing a new house, I would want an R- 2000 standard. I would want it at that level simply because it is economical to begin with, let alone any other reason.

The biggest problem though tends to be with older units. The minister will know, as Minister responsible for Northern Affairs, that you have a significant number of housing units that date back to the early '70s, many of them are substandard. I know in some of the communities I represent like Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei the housing is in pretty bad condition, and even though CMHC now has taken over those units, repairs to a unit that was never built that properly in the first place is patching up the problem.

The big problem again is with energy conservation, and it becomes sort of an interesting dilemma here, because one of the biggest groups, I guess, that loses out on this is the government itself. Anybody who is receiving Income Security-who pays for the energy bills? The government does. I find it amazing, for example, that in Thompson, the biggest slum landlord is the government indirectly in the sense that if you consider that the government essentially is paying for the rent, and then individuals are living in that location.

So what happens in some of those townhouses I referenced, which are in lousy shape structurally, the $300, $400, $500 a month is being paid for, in the case of those who are on Income Security, by the - -

May 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2555 government. So there may be some savings, as well, for the government. Now, I leave this as a challenge to the minister because we have some philosophical differences on such issues. But one of the things that was talked about earlier by the residents of one area, in particular, of townhouses in Thompson was either, you know, if it becomes social housing purchased by the government or to be set up as a co-op. Now the unfortunate

part is both of those options have virtually disappeared because of shifts in government funding, and the advantage there is you internalize, you know, the externality, so to speak. You internalize the costs, and you can get the savings because then the government not only is in a position of paying the rents, but it is also essentially then the landlord, or you can work it out with the tenants, go into a co-op structure.

I would appreciate, coming from the minister's perspective, because I suspect that is not his approach; in fact, I would know, I know the minister well enough to know that is not his approach but a way of doing it, short of that, using the existing system where you have a private landlord and you have tenants, because this is a problem all over the North, and it is probably a situation all over Manitoba, unless the landlord is paying for the energy cost and then adds that on to the rent. If the tenants pay for the energy cost, you have a problem.

That is, I think, one of the major sources of energy and efficiency in the province right now. A few years ago, there were programs which I know applied to landlords to fix up their premises, and people did do it in some cases, but only if utilities were included as part of the rent. Otherwise, there is no incentive. So I am wondering ifthe minister has any suggestions coming from the department on how to deal with that element alone, not the private housing, but commercial properties where you have landlords and where the individuals are paying for the heating costs for the tenants. Mr.

Newman: I really welcome this discussion, and I hope it is the kind of discussion that would be perpetuated and enhanced in relation to the communities themselves and the tenants themselves. We are very serious in the Northern Affairs area, and certainly it coincides with what we are doing in Energy and Mines about involving the people who live in housing, whether it is public or private, to think in long term, healthy, sustainable ways about themselves and about their homes and their communities.

We are also very serious about economic development opportunities being made available and realized by more people in the North. To that end, we have an economic development event planned on June 16 . These are the kinds of things that can be the product of a co ordinated, sustained strategy that can emerge from there. I do know that our government is looking at the possibility of new housing construction being a potential industry in northern communities and in reserve communities, and all of these would be up to the higher standard.

I might say my understanding is that log homes are up to the R-2000 standard in performance measures if done the right way. So that is one solution to improving that, but in terms of creating incentives, whether real or notional, I agree that is a way to change behaviour positively, and all of those are open for consideration. I enco urage that sort of dialogue.

It is up to the Energy branch and the people there to come up with ideas and arguments, and to receive ideas and develop cases so that we can influence decision making process in government to take advantage of these kinds of opportunities to improve the standard of energy conservation in the public and private housing. With the case being made by individuals themselves who are prepared to do things, that is what I want to hear. You raise Gillam.

I must say that, talking philosophically for a moment, having a sense of ownership of those kinds of properties might induce people not to have a gazebo because everyone else has one. A sense of private ownership might also cause people to consider improving things in energy conservation ways. It might also cause them to do more things themselves in those properties to improve them without bringing in someone on call at a high price to do painting and things that one can do oneself.

Some of the programs that this government has, again, along the same philosophy, are tenants associations, encouraging tenants associations and

2556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 19 97 having tenants in those associations come up with ideas for improving their premises, even if they are public. We want to listen to those and work in co-operation with our Housing department to, again, incorporate those sorts of changes.

As we talk about this, I am hoping and I know that my Energy people are listening and are going to continue to listen, because I want them to make recommendations to me about every good idea that comes about, and give me arguments to advance them within government so they make long-term good sense for the people of Manitoba. * (1610 ) Mr. Ashton: Just to finish off, because I do have to return to the other committee, but just a couple of suggestions.

One of the problems in Gil lam is you are going to have a great deal of difficulty in attracting people to Gilla m if you move into a private housing market that may not really exist. That is one of the problems in the North, so I am not arguing against that aspect, but I certainly acknowledge, it is always a dilemma really in the sense that when people have a sense of ownership either through direct ownership or through co-op structure that you tend to get a lot of different approaches, and you can tell that. You can tell that in any residential area.

I know in Thompson, in a lot of cases, some people in rental properties do take very good care of their properties, but not everyone does. That may be the case with owners, too, but there does tend to be a correlation of the two. A couple of quick suggestions specifically; one way of dealing with one of the problems that I identified would be if the government was to act as an active purchaser of services. For example, you talked about requiring a certain level of insulation, R-2000, for new housing construction.

What might help, for example, particularly in Thompson, would be, I believe, if the government was to sit down and require that premises meet a certain standard of energy conservation before the government would directly or indirectly rent out those premises and work with people who are on fixed incomes in doing that, the reason being, I would say, if you were to take, say, townhouses just as an example in Thompson, where in a lot of the cases you have anywhere from maybe 20 percent to 70 percent to 80 percent of people on a fixed income. Essentially, the person who is writing the cheque is the government.

It would have two impacts. One is it would save the government money, I believe, if you required that, and that can be negotiated through rents that can be passed on to a certain degree in terms of the rent level even under the existing rent controls. But it also raises the standard for everyone else, so if you are living in that townhouse and you are paying the rent yourself, you still have that higher level of energy conservation.

What concerns me is, once again, we are trying to work through--I mentioned a couple of philosophical models which are perhaps more in tune with my political philosophy, but I believe in working through the market as well, and I think that may be the way of doing it, if the purchaser of the service sets certain standards. I really believe there is a colossal waste of money going on right now, and it is no fault of the tenants, and it is really no fault of the landlords, quite frankly, because if it is not part of the biii, it is not their responsibility directly. So that is a specific example of where it co

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-43
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 43.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8bb2a53d78f09fbc4a0557b5631d33a661dcd357

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