Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 52 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 52- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 28, 1997

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthu r-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charles wood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN. David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C.

TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

4095 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 28, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Charlie Burrell, Thelma Wyatt, Robert C. Wyatt and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Katherine Maleshko, Harry Ebbs Nolan, Nicole Campbell and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of obstetric programs at the Winnipeg Grace Hospital. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the obstetrics program has always been an important part of the Grace Hospital's mandate; and THAT both people in the community and a number of government studies have recommended against the further closure of community hospitals' obstetrics programs; and THAT as a result of federal and provincial cuts in the health budget, hospitals are being forced to eliminate programs in order to balance their own budgets; and THAT the closure of the Grace Hospital obstetrics ward will mean laying off 54 health care professionals, many of whom have years of experience and dedicated service in obstetrics; and THAT moving to a model where more and more births are centred in the tertiary care hospitals will be more costly and decreases the choices for women about where they can give birth.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the 19 97-98 Revenue Estimates.

4096 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 44- The Municipal Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 44, The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipalites, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of the bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table his message. Motion agreed to. Bill 45-- The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that leave be given to introduce Bill 45, The Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia preuve au Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. *

(1335) Biii46-The Criminal Injuries Compensation Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 46, The Criminal Injuries Compensation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'indemnisation des victimes d'actes criminels), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon thirty Grades 7 and 9 students from Shady Oak Christian School under the direction of Mr. Darrel Goosen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings).

We also have twenty-three Grades 7 and 8 students from Amos Okemow Memorial School under the direction of Mr. Reg Toews and Mr. Mike Borgfjo rd. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bristol Aerospace Sale Agreement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Acting Premier.

Madam Speaker, last October, Bristol Aerospace, a company that employs close to a thousand people in Winnipeg and is, obviously, a very significant economic benefit to our community, announced that it was putting the local plant up for sale. It was indicated that the sale would be completed within four to six months, and later in the winter, early January, February, we were told that the sale is imminent within the next four to six weeks. We hear now that the end of the month is the target date for the sale.

Can the Minister responsible for I, T and T please inform this House whether any sale has been arranged, and can he advise the people of Manitoba on the success of keeping those people working in Manitoba? •

(1340) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question, Madam Speaker. The presence of Bristol Aerospace in the province of Manitoba and the over a thousand employees that they have in their factory, their plant, are extremely important to this province. It is truly a cornerstone for the aerospace industry and the transportation industry for Manitoba. I do not disagree, the member has-there -

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4097 was some information as to the time which they were projecting in which they would have the sale complete. We have been in ongoing discussions. The department has been part of discussions with them, not directly as to who the purchaser would be, but trying to keep track of the fact that there is, in fact, a buyer, and it will take place sooner rather than later.

We also are aware of the fact that it is hoped to be concluded by the end of June, and we look forward to a company that purchases it, carries it out and expands its opportunities here in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, with the phasing out of other work that this company was providing to the federal government, the number of employees has decreased almost by 50 percent over the last couple of years.

In July of 19 96, the federal government secretly awarded, without tender, a $2 1 6-million contract to Bom bardier and did not allow any tendering for that work to take place by the Bristol Aerospace company. This untendered contract, I think, works totally against the interests of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier: What impact has this untendered contract going to Bom bardier had on the economic situation for Bristol, because they announced the sale of their company shortly thereafter? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, I cannot indicate to the House any direct relationship as to that contract and to the sale of Bristol by the Rolls Royce company of the U.K. The reason for the sale is that it is not along the type of business that the Rolls Royce company traditionally has carried out. However, any business that the plant would have here in Winnipeg would augur very well for anyone that was trying to buy it and/or anticipating purchasing it.

The province, I can tell the member, is involved through the MIOP program which is supporting the further redevelopment of the plant to change its direction from being so closely tied to mi litary construction activity to more civilian aircraft. We are committed to Bristol to help_ them do that and are, in fact, actively involved in a project currently. Tendering Process Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier-in 19 86 when the former Conservative government rigged the tendering process and awarded the maintenance contract of the CF -18 to the Bombardier corporation, all Manitobans joined together to call on the federal government to treat this region and this province fairly. This contract of $2 16 million was awarded without any tendering whatsoever to a competitive company to the Bristol Aerospace company.

Madam Speaker, we also understand that close to $1 billion in retrofitting and refurbishment work is being let out by stealth, if you will, in terms of work that is being provided to Bombardier. Has the Deputy Premier raised this issue in a public way with the Prime Minister, with the federal M.P.s? What are we doing to say that Manitoba should be treated fairly in a tendering process, whether it is a rigged process in 19 86 or no tendering process in 19 97? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, there is no secret that this government has stood strong as it relates to the aerospace activity in the province of Manitoba and also-and I give credit to the opposition, joined with us when it came to the Air Command to make sure that we tried to save some of the jobs that the federal Liberals were proposing to and did in fact move out of the city of Winnipeg, which is extremely important to this province.

I can also say, Madam Speaker, we are currently working with some of the proposed bidders-by the way, it just happens to be on a helicopter contract which was cancelled by the current Liberal government and is now being reintroduced under another name. That cost the city of Winnipeg a tremendous amount of aerospace jobs and was callously taken away for political reasons. We, this government, will stand strong for the aerospace industry in Manitoba and will do what we can to bring as much business to the province of Manitoba. * (1 345) Education System Standar dized Testing Costs Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. It is widely

4098 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 believed that the Department of Education has recently rented the entire Ramada Marlborough inn, over I 00 rooms, meeting rooms, accommodation, meals for a month for the marking of their ideologically driven standardized exams. I wonder if the minister could confinn this and whether she could tell us what the cost of the renting of the Ramada inn is and what portion it plays in the entire cost of standard exams at the Grades 3, 6, 9 and 12 levels in three and four subjects. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I am not about to confinn the location, the secured location of the marking of the exams. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: We know absolutely that the members opposite are philosophically and ideologically opposed to assessing students to any set measurable standard in schools. It is clear. It is obvious. It is known. It is supported in everything they say and everything they do, so they do not wish to see students assessed. They would prefer to have universities and employers not know what 80 percent means.

The total cost of examinations from development right through is around $50 to $60 per student, and that includes everything. The criteria around marking is very highly confidential in tenns of-[inte rjection] Well, Madam Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: Do they want the exams to go out ahead of their being written so that they can all be utilized and have the integrity of the standard compromised? I really-they do not like exams. That is all there is to it. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, with a supplementary question. Ms.

Friesen: I tried very hard to hear the answer there, but I wonder if the minister could explain why Manitobans should be collecting books, string, paper to take on a daily basis to classrooms, why they should be selling chocolate and wrapping paper door to door for basic classroom needs when the department's priority is a million dollars per exam to support an expensive and centralized marking system. Mrs. Mcintosh: The members opposite would be able to hear the answers if they would be quiet and listen to them when they are given. Madam Speaker, I indicate to the member that which she already knows.

When she was going to school and I was going to school, we sold chocolate bars and wax paper and grapefruit and oranges by the case. We sold grapefruit like there was no tomorrow. Everybody had vitamin C because we were going door to door selling grapefruit from our schools, and that is many years ago. We also, at that time, bought our own textbooks; we used to buy our own textboo ks at that time. So the fact that schools engage in fundraising is not new. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: I know they cannot hear, they do not want to hear.

They just do not like exams, and they will bring up any red herring they can bring up to try to get people to say that they will agree with them, that examination and assessment is not good for children. It is good. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, with a final supplementary question. Ms. Friesen: I will try a third question on the minister; she has not answered the other two. I wonder if the minis ter could explain why it is cost- Point of Order Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education, on a point of order. -

May 28, 1997 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4099 Mrs. Mcintosh: I am following the rules of a point of order as set by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Now this is the kind of point of order that he raises. He knows Beauchesne, so I am sure it is correct, and I trust you to tell me if it is correct or not. I distinctly answered the other two questions. Hansard will show that, Madam Speaker. I think the member is out of order in putting false information on the record. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education does not have a point of order. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, to quickly pose her final supplementary question. *

(1350) Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain why it is cost effective to spend close to another million dollars on a Grade 12 math exam which students already know does not count. Mrs. Mcintosh: The member obviously and clearly does not understand the purposes of standards exams. Her question reveals her abysmal ignorance on the topic. Maybe that is why she is so ideologically opposed.

The whole concept of trying to determine whether or not students have met the outcome designated in the curriculum, whether or not students have achieved the level of learning prescribed by the province as the measurable standard by which Manitoba shall be known has nothing to do with whether or not the marks count for the student.

If you have a mark that is out of 30, and you are able to show by that mark that across the province students have achieved the standard of computation, of problem solving ability, so that universities and employers and the international market will say, finally, finally, there is a measurable consistent standard of achievement with outcomes that are known, and she thinks it does not matter because it does not count for the student's final grade when the whole understanding-that mark will appear on every report card for people to see and to know what standard has been achieved.

Education System Student User Fees Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My question is to the Minister of Education. User fees in schools are costing families typically $660 per year for each elementary student, $915 for each secondary student in addition to the already heavy property tax burden due to this provincial government's underfunding of the public education system. On April 29, this minister explained the way user fees, as a result of teacher collective agreements- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Question, please. Ms.

Mihychuk: My question: Can the minister clarify how she believes that teachers are at fault for user fees because they have lunch breaks? I will quote: There are opportunities now for teachers in many divisions to have lunch hours. Does this minister think that teachers do not deserve- Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1355) Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, first of all, I will check the figures the member has put forward, and I would appreciate her providing me with copies of how they were arrived at. I would hope that unlike the other day when I asked twice if she could tell me which schools would not let students in if they did not pay a membership fee or a registration fee-she did not give me that information. I would appreciate this so I could check it out. Madam Speaker, I have to indicate that which is well known.

Of course teachers deserve lunch and never would anybody say they would not, but we are talking about- An Honourable Member: You did. Mrs. Mcintosh: And no, I will not accept him twisting or a misinterpretation of words. It is very clear and well known and verified by school boards across the province-it is not a judgment; it is not a bad thing; it is

4100 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 not blame. The member says "blame." There is no blame attached here; it is just a fact. Many school divisions now have collective agreements which free up teachers from supervising lunchroom duty at lunchtime, taking a tour of lunchroom duty, as we always did in the past where teachers would take every six or seven days and supervise the lunchroom. That has resulted in a cost to school divisions where they have to hire lunchroom supervisors, and they will often charge students to pay for that. That is just a fact; it is not blame.

There is nothing-1 do not know why she reads blame into reality. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with a supplementary question. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, the minister has called on me to reveal how many school divisions are charging fees. It is shameful this minister does not know what is going on in- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James, with a supplementary question. Ms. Mihychuk: Will the Minister of Education confirm that the St. James-Assiniboia School Division, the Fort Garry School Division, the River East School Division, the St.

Vital School Division and the Assiniboine South School Division all charge mandatory registration fees? Will she get up to date and know what is happening in public schools? Mrs. Mcintosh: I had called upon the member to give me the names of schools which would deny students the right to enter the classroom because they had not paid a fee, which were twice the accusations she made. She still has not done that. She is talking about registration fees, which many school divisions charge and always have charged. For example, St.

James Collegiate charges a registration fee of $25, $18 of which is for the student fee and the lockers and so on, and the rest which can be easily not paid if the student does not have the money. So this is not unlike what my daughter paid in 1981, my daughter who paid money, a hundred dollars, a hundred and fifty dollars here and there for band trips when she was in award-winning bands and once could not go to one because we simply could not afford to send her. In 1981 when they were in power and their minister was the Minister of Education, we were paying user fees to that amount and that level.

School divisions do have extra costs associated with new realities in collective bargaining-nothing wrong with that, but it does result in extra costs for parents. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with a final supplementary question. Ms. Mihych uk: Madam Speaker, when will this Minister of Education recognize that the increasing trend of charging user fees to students is the result of this government's underfunding of public schools? When will they take the responsibility for that? Mrs. Mcintosh: I have three things I need to say to that.

First of all, Madam Speaker-it is a three-part answer-one, we are not underfunding education. Funding to education has increased by $115 million since we took office, a huge increase and a real increase. In addition, there have been other monies pumped into the system in terms of technology grants, in terms of money for special needs, in terms of nurses in school, in terms of all kinds of things, and that is right, that is correct and that is a reality. So she cannot say we are underfunding.

The other thing I can say is that we are doing this, all of this, in spite of the fact that the transfer payments from Ottawa are huge transfer cuts that they would be the first ones to complain about if they had to deal with them. If they had to deal with a $220-million cut to health and education, they would be the first ones to complain, and they would not be able to continue sustaining the education system to the degree that we do if they were in power. Third, Madam Speaker, when will they take the blame for the user fees that we had to pay when they were in power? •

(1400) Pan Am Games Federal Funding Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, yesterday in the Sport Estimates, the member for -

May 28, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4101 Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) stood by the Pan Am Games budget of $122,064,000. He maintains that there will not be a deficit for the games. However, he admits that there are budget revisions occurring and that the Pan Am Games Society has approached and is in discussion with the government to secure a need for increased funds.

I want to ask the Minister of Finance and of Sport: Given that in 1994 the Commonwealth Games received $105 million from federal and provincial governments, does the minister think that it is fair or reasonable that the federal government is reported-gave $62 million to the Victoria games when they had only 11 sports and that now for the Pan Am Games which have 41 sports, they are giving $37 million? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Madam Speaker, we had quite a lengthy discussion in Estimates yesterday with the member for Radisson.

When you look at budgets of various games, there are some differences. Some communities have greater needs in terms of their facility development and so on. We are fortunate here in Winnipeg and Manitoba; we do not have a tremendous need in terms of enhancing our facilities to host the 1999 Pan American Games, but I believe her numbers are correct when she focuses on the federal contribution. In fact, the federal contribution for the 1999 Pan American Games is approximately $30 million in cash and $7 million in services and in kind.

There still is some uncertainty around the value for that $7 million in-kind service, so actually the federal contribution to date is $30 million in cash compared to approximately, I believe, about $62 million in cash for the Commonwealth Games in Victoria. Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering if the Minister of Finance and of Sport can explain why the federal support for the Pan Am Games is $25 million less than the Victoria Commonwealth Games even though the Pan Am Games five years later are a larger event but are now operating on a much smaller budget. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think that question is certainly more appropriately addressed to the federal Liberal government or perhaps the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who likes to speak on behalf of the federal Liberal government quite regularly in this House. But to date, as the member said in her first question, the current budget is $122 million. All of the financial requirements of that budget have been met in terms of the development of that budget but, as we discussed yesterday, the Pan Am Games are now going through a comprehensive review of all of their expenditures.

There are some changes to their expenditures based on numbers of athletes, lengths of stay during the games. There also are some changes to the revenues based on the recent agreement with CBC and TSN and so on. So we are expecting a revised budget document from them very shortly and, subject to what that shows, we will be into discussions obviously with the society but, probably more importantly, we will be into serious discussions with the federal government. Ms.

Cerilli: I would ask the Minister of Finance and of Sport what he is prepared to do more specifically about this $25-million shortfall as compared to the Commonwealth Games, especially since there is currently a lot of uncertainty about the Pan Am Games securing an American television network, and this would, again, affect the budget in Manitoba. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think initially we have to let the Pan Am Games Society go through the review that they are going through.

In fact, the chairman of the games this morning announced or indicated that they are going through that comprehensive review, expect to complete that fairly shortly.

So I do not think we should necessarily prejudge what the outcome is, but if there is need for additional financial support, I think there is a very compelling point to be made with the federal government based on the level of support that the federal government has given for games in Edmonton and Calgary and Victoria and elsewhere in Canada, that by comparison their support for the Pan Am Games here in Winnipeg and Manitoba is certainly less as a contribution to the games. So I think there is a compelling point to be made, if need be, in terms of future discussions with the federal government.

4102 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 Transfer Payments Increase Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Finance. Time and again, whether it is the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), the minister of social services, anything that goes wrong in the province of Manitoba, they want to blame the transfer payments from Ottawa.

My question to the Minister of Finance is: Once we start to see the increases to these transfer payments as promised, will the Minister of Finance then in return direct that money directly-increases to our public education and health care in order to compensate this government's inability to provide proper resources? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am totally confused where the member for Inkster is coming from when he refers to increases.

I think I should point out to him that this year, 1997-98, the federal government is providing $12.5 billion to provinces for health, post-secondary education and support to families. They were scheduled to reduce it down over the next couple of years to $11 billion. All that the federal Liberal government has done is halt the reductions at this particular point in time. So they are not providing any increases; they are just stopping further reductions. There is a big fundamental difference. He talks of increases. There are no increases coming.

All that is happening is there are no more reductions, but this is on the heels of a 35 percent reduction in funding for health, post-secondary education and support to families. In the case of Manitoba, it is a reduction of $240 million, and I say shame to the federal Liberal government. Mr. Lamoureux: Nice to see the Minister of Finance, Mr. Charest and- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Lamoureux: My question to the Minister of Finance is: Will the Minister of Finance commit that his government will provide additional financing for public education and our public health care system when we start to see the increases in transfer payments towards the block fund? Will he make that commitment today? Mr. Stefanson: I do not know if the member for Inkster did not hear my first answer, but I really do encourage him to look at the facts. There are no increases coming down the road from any federal Liberal government.

Right now the funding for Canada Health and Social Transfers on a national basis to all provinces is at $12.5 billion. All that the federal government has ·,dicated, the federal Liberal government, is that they will freeze it at $12.5 billion instead of reducing it down to $II billion which was their original plan. So there are no increases, and the facts are that over the last three years the federal Liberal government has reduced funding in those areas by 35 percent and in the case of Manitoba, $240 million.

Those are the challenges that are facing Manitoba and challenges faced by provincial governments right across Canada because of the wrongheaded policies of the federal Liberal government. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance: Why is he attempting to mislead the public on this issue? Either that or he does not know what he is talking about. My question- Point of Order Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on a point of order. Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I invite the honourable member to review what he has just said and perhaps rephrase his question. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster, on the same point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I do understand that "misleading" is in fact unparliamentary, so for that reason I would withdraw it even though-I will just leave it at that.

May 28, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4103 Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Inkster. * * * Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance himself admits that there is going to be a freeze. Your ministers say there is a $220-million decrease. You cannot have it both ways. What is this Minister of Finance going to be doing with the money that was not originally budgeted? Wilt he give the commitment that it will go towards public education and public health care? *

(1410) Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the current federal Liberal government was elected three and a half years ago, I remind the member, and immediately in their first budget they started reducing the funding in transfers to provinces for health, post-secondary education and support to families. Over the last three budgets, that reduction from the federal Liberal government is $240 million in the case of Manitoba, and across Canada it is 3 5 percent. Those are the facts. Even the federal Liberal government, even the federal Liberals do not deny that those are in fact the facts.

All that they have announced is they have stopped the reductions, they have stopped the freezes after that major reduction and are holding the floor at 12.5. I have provided the member information in the past. I will provide him all the information he wants. I even encourage him to talk to the federal Liberals in their attempts to justify these massive reductions, but those are the facts. In the case of Manitoba, we have $240 million less today than we did three years ago for those three very important areas. Health Care System Surgery Waiting Lists Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, bone density scanner waits of 18 months, hip and knee replacement waits of one year to 18 months, cataract surgery or eye surgery where typically a doctor will say, go on the waiting list or for a thousand dollars I will do it in my office today, this is what Manitobans have been living with for years. For years we have been prodding the government to do something about waiting lists and yesterday, finally, the Minister of Health indicated that the government was going to do something about surgical waiting lists.

I would like the minister today to explain to the thousands of Manitobans who are presently on those waiting lists what and when the government will be offering some relief with regard to these terrible waiting lists we have had in this province for the past few years. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, no doubt the issue of waiting lists for various procedures comes up from time to time and is an important one for Manitobans, but the member for Kildonan asks his question as if it exists in a void.

Madam Speaker, since this administration came to power, my predecessors, the former member for Pembina and the current member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), have worked very hard to improve procedures and the offering of procedures.

I can inform the House things like cardiac surgeries increased 48.8 percent; cataracts 44.7 percent; hip replacements 24.1 percent; knee replacements 125. 5 percent, so I am not disagreeing with the member that there is a need out there that we are attempting to address, but let us not make it sound for one moment that work has not gone on to try to increase the number of procedures, because that has happened, and there is need that we stilt have to address. Diagnostic Test Waiting Lists Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Can the minister, Madam Speaker, who did not answer the specifics of the question for Manitobans, explain why in Manitoba today the waiting lists for diagnostic services like CAT scans, magnetic resonance and ultrasound are the longest and the highest in all of Canada today and were yesterday and last year and have been consistently under this government? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not for one moment going to accept the premise that our waiting lists are significantly, as the member would have us believe, out of line with the rest of the country.

But there are a host of reasons that go into waiting lists that we discussed yesterday. Some of

4104 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 those reasons have to do with the way in which we organize many of those diagnostic procedures, the way we make use of existing equipment. I know, in one area that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) has brought to my attention in terms of bone scans, as I have gone back with my department to find ways of reducing that waiting list, it is quite interesting what one finds in terms of the proposals that come forward to solve it which range from a very high amount of money to a very nominal amount because there is a host of factors that fit into it.

We are trying to address those as those issues arise, and I hope we are going to be able to bring down some of those lists that we have talked about in this House. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain how it is that we in this House who are Manitobans and the thousands of Manitobans on these waiting lists are going to have any confidence that the minister is going to bring these waiting lists down, when, in fact, he does not acknowledge the fact that we have the longest waiting lists for CAT scans, the longest waiting lists for MRis, the longest waiting lists for ultrasound, horrendous waiting lists for hip and knee replacements, and the minister will not even acknowledge these waiting lists exist and attempts to find excuses?

Will he tell the House specifically what the government is going to do and stop making excuses? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member's comments are very far from the truth. Neither myself nor the previous minister has not acknowledged that there are from time to time and are currently waiting lists for various procedures that we do not find acceptable in the system. We have acknowledged that. We also know that similar lists exist in other parts of the country from time to time.

What is important is not that one just say, well, the only way to solve this problem is just throw some money on the issue today and it will be solved. One has to understand and appreciate what causes that particular waiting list. In some cases, in fact in the case of the bone marrow or bone density scan, it is not a question of money for equipment. It is the way we utilize the existing machine and the need to staff it more than it is done now in terms of priorities and programming. So if we get to the root of what the problem is, then we can solve the problem in a meaningful way. That is our intention.

Maple Leaf Foods Plant Site-Negotiations Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Since Manitoba has had such a large increase in hog production this past number of years and was the leading province with the largest increases, I understand that Maple Leaf Foods was looking at building a world-class hog processing plant somewhere in western Canada. Can the minister bring this House up to date as to where the negotiations are with this company? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): I thank the honourable member for that question and I can indeed indicate to all members of this House and, perhaps more importantly, to the farming community that Maple Leaf Foods, Canada's largest food processor, by the way, is very much looking at the province of Manitoba for a major, major operation that could employ upwards to 800 people, 125 millions of dollars of capital investment.

My information is that Manitoba and Alberta are the two provinces that are still currently being considered as a potential site for this development, and I can assure you, Madam Speaker, and all honourable members that together with my colleague the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) and my colleague the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) we are doing everything we can, of course, to ensure that the Manitoba advantage is being presented to the principals of Maple Leaf at every occasion that we have. Hog Industry Marketing System Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, on a further question to the Minister of Agriculture: Can you confirm that the Province of Saskatchewan is also looking at some changes to their marketing system similar to the marketing plan that we have here in Manitoba?

May 28, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4105 Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): It is of interest, Madam Speaker. You will recall that just about this time last year, very frequently we had visitors up in the public gaiJeries from pork producers, from hog producers that were concerned about some of the changes that were being contemplated in Manitoba. Since those changes have been implemented in Manitoba, Jet me first of all say that Manitoba Pork is doing an excellent job in marketing the hogs in the province of Manitoba.

Alberta has followed suit on the leadership shown by Manitoba and, to answer my honourable member directly, I understand legislation has been introduced in the Saskatchewan Legislature to do precisely the same thing in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, it is of interest to note that that is being done by a New Democratic Party government in Saskatchewan that has seen the wisdom, the visionary future that Manitoba shows. *

(1420) Disaster Assistance Agricultural Losses Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, it is surprising to find the kind of compensation people can be promised, especially the farming community, when it falls during a federal election. However, it is one thing to make promises and it is another thing to deliver.

Will the Minister of Agriculture ensure Manitobans, whether they live in the Red River Valley or in other parts of the province, whether they are flooded during a federal election or at another time of the year, that they will all be treated equally and that we will have a long-tenn plan as to how fanners in this province will be compensated when a disaster like a flood strikes them? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): I do appreciate very much that question, because I understand that it is of obvious concern to many primary producers, fanners, not just in the Red River Valley but throughout the province, about the issues that she raises.

I think my Premier, the First Minister, made it very plain, in response to questions by the media that were widely reported, that we are insistent that a program that is developed be province-wide, that it treats fanners the same whether they are in the Swan River Valley, the upper Assiniboine or along the Portage Diversion or along the Souris, that a flood is a flood is a flood, and to that property owner that is impacted, affected by it, it is a disaster to that particular farm operation.

That, by the way, is one of the reasons why there has been a delay in presenting a co-ordinated program to the producers, and this has been made known to the principal ministers in the federal government, Minister Axworthy in particular, and it is my hope that we can bring the officials together. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I understand there is a willingness to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to waive private members' hour today? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of lndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, the mm1ster had commenced her opening remarks, and we request that she continue with her opening statement.

4106 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I think I remember where I left off. I would like to begin all over again, just for effect, but I think in the essence of trying to ensure that we use our time productively, I will continue from where I think I left off yesterday. Income Assistance clients have responded positively to our government's challenge to seek work. It is clear that clients want to work. I am pleased to inform this committee that the Employment First focus has resulted in a significant decrease in the provincial welfare caseload.

In fact, the average caseload for 1996-97 fell below 1990-91 levels. The new focus on employment has helped hundreds of clients access training and employment opportunities. Since our welfare reform initiative was introduced, the provincial caseload has dropped by more than I ,000 cases. In addition, we have seen an increase of over 30 percent in the number of clients reporting earnings from employment. This fiscal year we are again forecasting a decrease in our caseloads in employment and Income Assistance and municipal assistance.

To complement our Employment First approach, we have developed numerous partnerships with business, local governments and community organizations to create jobs for our clients. Through innovative programs such as the Rural Jobs Pro ject, Taking Charge!, the City of Winnipeg's community service pro jects and Opportunities for Employment which is an initiative involving our government and the Mennonite Central Committee, we have been assisting Income Assistance clients to obtain jobs.

Taking Charge!, as members will recall, is a pilot pro ject funded jointly by Canada and Manitoba and is designed to increase employment for single-parent clients in Winnipeg. As of the end of March 1997, Taking Charge! had assisted in placing over 400 single parents into employment, and a thousand single parents had entered training. I am very excited about the progress we have been making in developing innovative ways to help families on assistance achieve economic self-sufficiency. As our employment picture continues to brighten, we can expect to see fewer people dependent on social programs.

I am pleased by the very positive feedback we have received, both from the community and from our clients, regarding the initiatives that we have put into place. I look forward to discussing this area in more detail as we move into the Estimates review. Another major initiative which is currently underway is the implementation of a one-tier system of Income Assistance delivery in Winnipeg. My department has been working closely with the City of Winnipeg on this project which will reduce administrative duplication and improve service for clients.

In the first phase of this pro ject, a business case for integrating the two delivery systems was determined by an independent consultant group under the direction of a joint provincial-City of Winnipeg steering committee. The business case provided compelling reasons to proceed with the pro ject. We have now begun phase two, the detailed design phase which will lead to implementation. The one-tier pro ject is expected to be completed in 1998. As I mentioned earlier, I am very pleased we have strengthened our commitment to community living and vocational rehabilitation programs in our Community Living division.

The Adult Services component of this division includes programs in the area of supported living, day services and vocational rehabilitation. This year, we have added nearly $4.4 million or a 7.4 percent increase for services and supports for adults with a mental disability. •

(1440) The funding we have provided demonstrates our government's commitment to this priority area. I am pleased that our government has again been able to increase funding to provide services and supports for adults with mental disabilities to assist them with living and participating in the community. Last fall, The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Act was proclaimed and members of the hearing panels established under this legislation. They have been appointed and have begun the task of reviewing orders. The Vulnerable Persons' Commis sioner Dr. Allan Hansen and his staff have

May 28, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4107 been busy with public education sessions thr_o�ghout the province and with implementing the provtstons of the act. This fiscal year will see a review of the stat�s. of several hundred persons who had orders of supervtston issued under

Part II of The Mental Health Act. The original Operations Branch of this di�ision is responsible for the delivery of a co� prehenstve r�ge of social services throughout the provmce. I would ltke to make a few comments regarding emergency social services which falls within this area of the department. The Emergency Measures Act requires local authorities to prepare for and respond to emergencies and disasters. Manitoba Family Services has the responsibility under the Manitoba Emerge�cy Pia� for assisting communities with emergency soctal servtces.

Over the last several years, staff have assisted municipalities and nongovernmental agencies in developing the emergency social services plans that are now being implemented in response to the flood. As you know, Manitobans have been battling one of the worst floods to ever hit this province. The department's Emergency Social Services area has been actively involved with the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization in responding to the needs of those affected by the flood.

Activities included establishing an emergency co-ordination centre at 114 Garry Street, and Emergency Social Services reception centres in Winnipeg and throughout southern Manitoba. Services co-ordinated through Emergency Social Services include registration and inquiry, food, lodging, clothing and personal services. The delivery of these services represents a co-operative effort involving provincial staff, municipalities, and voluntary organizations.

I would like to add that approximately 115 departmental staff have been working full-or part-time in duties directly related to the department's role in the delivery of emergency social services during the flood, and will continue to provide assistance for evacuees during the re-entry phase until their houses are repaired or rebuilt. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge and to express my appreciation to staff and the many hundreds of volunteers who have contributed their time and energy towards the flood assistance effort.

The area of Child and Family Services has been a very active one over the past year, and will continue to be a priority focus of the department'� wor� . . ?verall funding for the Child and Family Servtces Dtvtston has increased by 2.7 percent over last year. Child an_d Family Support is a particularly critical_area, and t�ts year another $2.3 million will be provtded for c�tld protection and related services.

Even t�o�gh fundmg in this area has increased by $46.5 mtllton, or 62.7 percent, since we have been in governm�nt, as I have said on many occasions, money alone wtll not ensure that Manitoba's children are safe. The protection and well-being of children is a responsibility shared by all of society. Beginning last fall, a community panel, initially chaired by my colleague Mike Radcliffe and subsequently by Helen Zuefle, reviewed The Child and Family Services Act, seeking advice from Manitobans on a broad range of matters falling under this legislation.

I was pleased to release last summer a policy statement on Families First and a consultation workbook, which formed the basis for the community consultation process regarding the act, to obtain the community's perspective on how we can best assist in supporting children in need. The review examines such areas as the protection of children and adoptions and has provided extremely valuable recommendations to government on ways to improve the adoption procedures and our ability to protect children.

I was pleased to recently release the report of The Child and Family Services Act review committee on the community consultation process, which summarizes the suggestions, comments and advice received throughout the review process. During this session, I will introduce an adoption act and amendments to The Child and Family Services Act, which reflect what we have been told by Manitobans during this process. Over the past year my colleague Marcel Laurendeau, the member for St.

Norbert, conducted a fact-finding mission to seek the views of the community on a range of issues related to the child care system in Manitoba. During the course of this initiative, many helpful

4108 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 1997 comments and recommendations were received on such areas as administrative procedures and funding issues affecting child care facilities. I want to personally thank Marcel Laurendeau for his commitment and his enthusiasm during this process. Based on the suggestions put forth by parent users, child care providers and interested persons, my department has recently taken steps to improve client service by reducing the administrative work related to delivering the Child Day Care program.

The subsidy application fonn is being simplified, for example, and a number of related administrative processes are being streamli ned. We are in the process of making a number of other changes to the way we do business with licensed facilities that deliver child care services and with the families they serve. We are working together with the community in examining the regulations under The Community Child Day Care Standards Act, with a view to making them more flexible and responsive to the needs of families without sacrificing the high standards of care for which Manitoba is known.

This positive collaboration will have as its final result an improved child care system that reflects and responds to the needs of families and promotes the well-being of children. I am looking forward to continuing the co-operative relationship which has developed with the child daycare community. Children's Special Services is another area that remains a high priority for our government. We are seeing a growing number of families with children with special needs. As a result, we have been challenged to ensure that our resources continue to meet the needs of the many families who require support.

In addressing this need, our government allocated additional funding last year to provide support to families waiting for services. In 1997-98, our government has increased funding for Children's Special Services by almost $2 million, or close to 30 percent, to ensure that the resources are available to support families and to help their children develop to their maximum potent ial. In the nine years that we have been in government, expenditures in this area of the department have tripled.

I would at this time like to mention the children's coalition-provincial government JOint working committee, which has been established to identify issues faced by disabled children and their families, as well as options for alternative ways of delivering services. The committee, chaired by the Children and Youth Secretariat, has been looking at a number of pilot pro jects, which would address service issues experienced by families and to enable them to have more say in the way services are provided for their special needs children.

The services of our Family Conciliation Branch continued to be important to Manitobans. The branch serves families affected by separation and divorce. One of its functions is the provision of court-ordered assessments in cases where parents or guardians are in conflict over the custody and access arrangements regarding their children. I would like to add that our government has supported an innovative parent education pro ject known as For the Sake of the Children. As I am sure you can appreciate, the breakdown of a marriage can be very stressful, in particular for children.

This pro ject helps separating and divorcing parents to better understand the needs of their children, how they are affected by family breakup and how to relate more co operatively to one another. The program has been operating in Winnipeg for about a year and a half, and was expanded to Brandon in March of 1997. It has been well received by all participants. *

(1450) Family Dispute Services has developed an important part of the range of services supported through Family Services. This area of the department supports the development and maintenance of community-based resources for women who are leaving violent relationships and monitors the quality of existing programs. Last year shelters throughout the province provided approximately 43,000 bed nights and responded to about 17,000 cri sis-line telephone calls. This year expenditures for the programs provided by women's crisis shelters, crisis lines and women's resource centres will increase over last year's level.

I would like to add that Manitoba has the most compre hensive funding model for women's shelters in -

May 28�,�19�9�7 ________ �L�E�G�IS�L�A�T�I�V�E�A�S�SE�M�BL�Y�O�F�M�A�N�I�T�O�B�A ________________ 4�1�09 Canada and offers a continuum of services for abused women at various stages of personal recovery, including specialized urban treatment programs and second-stage housing programs. Another area where new partnerships can be helpful is in services to high risk children and youth. With the creation of the Children and Youth Secretariat, we have co-ordinated various departments in government to deliver services to children and young people that are better integrated and better able to meet their needs.

The Department of Family Services is actively involved in a variety of initiatives co-ordinated by the Children and Youth Secretariat. I would just like to highlight a few of those. We need to work to maintain the highest standards for those who work with our troubled youth. Recently I announced that a new child and youth care worker program diploma program will begin shortly and provide training to workers dealing with high risk children and youth in their care.

Our government will be providing $386,000 in the first year and $250,000 in subsequent years through the departments of Education and Training, Family Services, Health, and Justice. The program to be offered at Red River Community College will ensure employers can access skilled, knowledgeable workers for group and youth homes and other residential facilities. In building a supportive net of services, we need to take special measures to assist those children in the care of Child and Family Services agencies.

The secretariat has been working with the education and social services communities to develop a placement protocol to transition foster children into receiving schools. We believe that this measure will not only help the child to feel more secure about making the move to a new school environment but will also assist the school in creating a positive environment for the child. Another way in which the secretariat and my department have been working with the school system to help children at risk is through the Families and Schools Together Program.

This program is a school based initiative targeted to children ages four to nine years, who have been identified as being at risk of future social, academic and substance abuse problems. The FAST Program involves the families of the children identified who work together on projects aimed at developing a positive image of the school system and stressing the overall importance of education. I would like to particularly note the program's emphasis on single parents, which, it is estimated, represents approximately 50 percent of the participants. I would like to tum for a moment to the matter of teen pregnancy.

There is a strong correlation between poor families and adolescent pregnancy. Costs of providing health and social services to the adolescent parent population are significant. Accordingly, the Department of F amily Services has a continuing interest in issues associated with adolescent parenting and pregnancy, and we will be working with the secretariat and the community to find solutions to this problem. Providing services to children with disabilities, as I mentioned earlier, is a priority for this department.

The secretariat facilitated the development of a three phase, cross-sectoral plan to increase the range and co ordination of services for technology-dependent children and their families. This initiative provides for the equitable distribution of community-based therapy services for disabled children. Proposals for the provision of these services are currently under review.

The secretariat will also be working closely with my department and child welfare agencies on the development of a Know Your Roots project, which will ensure that permanent wards of the province have the opportunity to learn more about their personal histories. It has been four years since the proclamation of the legislation which established the Office of the Children's Advocate. It was our government that took the initiative to create this office as a place for children and families to tum for help in representing children's rights and interests within the Child and Family Services system.

The Children's Advocate is one of a number of mechanisms which support our efforts to find better ways of serving children and families in difficult circumstances. As set out in the legislation governing the Advocate's office, a committee of the Legislative Assembly is undertaking a comprehensive review of the office, and I look forward to the report of the committee and to any recommendations brought forward regarding amendments to the legislation.

41 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 Before concluding, Mr. Chairperson, I want to take a few moments to raise some of the larger issues being addressed by social services mi nisters across the country. Our government has been actively participating in discussions with other provin ces and the federal government regarding a proposal for a National Child Benefit system. This initia tive was launched by provincial premiers in August of I 996 and grew out of the report to premiers of the Ministerial Council on Socia l Policy Reform and Renewal, which the premiers established in I 995.

The I 997 federal budget confirmed the federal commi tments to join with provinces and territories to establish a new child benefit system in 19 98. One of the key features of this proposal is its focus on ensuring an effective response to the need to prevent and reduce child poverty, and promoting attachment to the workforce by ensuring that families will always be better off working than by receiving welfare. Our government has also been working dili gently towards the renewal of a federal-provincia l financia l arrangement under which vocational rehabilitation services for persons with disabilities are funded.

Last summer there were indic ations that the federal government was about to abandon VRDP funding. At the annual social services minis ters' meeting last September, I proposed an extension in federal funding for another fiscal year while discussions regarding the long-term future of the VRDP could be initia ted. I am pleased to report that the federal government has agreed to this extension, and I am hopeful that the discussions on the shape of these arrangements in the future will result in the renewal of the federal government's commitment to vocation al rehab services.

Provincial and territorial social services mi nisters have expressed their strong comm itment to work to promote the well-being and protect ion of children. In the area of child welfare, we have given a high priority to colla borating on issues such as prevention, research and information sharing, best practices, training and certification, integration of services, adoption and child support.

I would like to mention that I wrote to my federal colle agues recently to bring their attention to our government's serious concern regarding the federal government's plan last year to reduce funding support for the Community Action Program for Children. Many community groups and agencies depend on funding from CAPC to provide preventative programs and services for children and families who may otherwise be at risk. I am pleased that our initia tive in calling for the federal government to reconsider this decision has resulted in this funding being reinstated for this fiscal year.

At every opportunity at meetings with my federal counterparts, I bring to their attention the imp ortance of aborigin al issues to .v1anit oba. This province has the highest per capita concentr ation of aborigi nal people of any province. Special needs of the aborigi nal popula tion are imp ortant factors in our socia l services, justice, education and training, and health system.

The federal government must acknowledge its special hi storical and constitutional respons ibilitie s for abo rigi nal people. *( I 500) In closing, I want to note that in our allocation of expenditures for 19 97-98 we have made every effort to maintain a balanced approach to preserving and renewing services for our most vulnerable members of society. As we continue to face reductions in federal transfers, we have managed to protect those most in need from the imp act of these reductions.

As I have noted on several occasions, meeting the challenges of vulnerable families and individ uals is not only government's responsibility. It is one that needs to be shared by the whole community. The community has shown every indic ation that it is prepared to take on this challenge, and one of government's roles through this process will be as a partner and a facili tator. We are taking a constructive, innovative approach to helping people find work and become self-sufficient.

We have reached out and formed new partnerships with industry and community groups, and we are seeing very favourable results from our focus on employment. As we work with existing and new partners, we will see an increasing number of families and indivi duals become self-sufficient. The benefits for families and individuals both in econ omic and personal terms are im measurable.

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 11 I would li ke to take this opportunity just before I complete my remarks to again thank all members, all staff in my department, for their efforts during the last year. As you will have noted by my comments, this was a challenging year for our department. Hopefully, the signifi cant changes have provided staff with renewed enthusiasm and motivati on as they take on the very demanding tasks that we do want to have on a day to-day basis on behalf of the cli ents that we serve.

So I want to commend them for the hard work and the commitment and the dedica tion that they have shown and I know will continue to show as we move forward in this ever-changing world and society that we li ve in. So I very much look forward to this committee's review of the Estimates, and I welcome comments and questions from my colleagues in the opposition and hope we have constructive dial ogue around the issues we deal with in Family Services. Thank you. Mr. Cha irperson: I thank the Minis ter of Family Services for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), have an opening statement. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and I do have a short opening <!· statement. We do not have many hours, so we are going to try and move expeditio usly. I too always look forward to- welt, I look forward to two things at this time of year. One is my birthday and the other is Family Services Estimates, although this year I looked forward more to Estimates than my birthday, which has just passed. [in terjection] We will not go into that.

I also would lik e to thank the minis ter's staff because I phone them from time to time and they are always very co-opera tive, although I must say the people I phone most often are the program specialists in Income Assis tance. Just to show how co-operative I am as an opposition critic, I think I have done something unprecedented here and that is give the mini ster's staff some of my questions in advance, both in writing to the minis ter and in the room today, hoping that will move things along more quickly.

I am going to try to restrain myself in terms of getting into arguments with the minis ter and maybe save that to the end. But I will comment on a couple of things the minis ter said in her opening statement. As we always hear in Question Period and in Estimates, this provincial government likes to blame a lot of their problems on cutbacks from the federal government, and we heard again today that the result of the Canada Health and Social Transfer is a cut to the Province of Manitoba of, I think the minis ter said, $227 million.

However, what the min ister fails to point out is that this government has over $400 million in the Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund, also known as the Tory election slush fund. So this government does have choices that they could make in terms of program spending, but they will probably save that money for next year's budget, for a tax cut, or for paving highways, or whatever they think it takes to get re-elected. If there is one area that most affects people that are the responsibil ity of this minis ter and aff ects a lot of people in the province of Manitoba, it would have to be poverty.

There are certainly links between poverty and crime, poverty and Child and Family Services, poverty and Health, poverty and Education. Just by way of example, sometime in the last year, I think it was Wi nnipeg Child and Family Services did an environmental scan, and they were able to identify the factors which put child ren most at risk of being apprehended by an agency, and those risk factors were being the child of a single parent, being aboriginal and being poor. We also know that new groups are starting to raise their concerns about poverty issues, parti cularly educators.

So last year, on November 19 , we have a story in the Free Press about school divisions who have, as the headline in the Free Press says: Alarm rings for kids; school trustees join poverty fight. Educators have realized for some time now, and it is good to see trustees joining with educators in urging all governments to tackle the problem of child pover ty. They had a press conf erence which was very well attended by Winnipeg media, and they pointed out many of the serious problems that result in the education system from child poverty and asked governments to give it a higher priority.

Then on December 10 we had two stories: one in the Free Press, one in The Globe and Mail about the report

41 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 issued by Mr. Ted Hughes on the Headingley Jail riot. It was a very interesting report because he did not just look at the riot, but he looked at the inma tes and who they are and why some of them are there. The Free Press headline says: Poor need help, Judge; poverty called cause of crime. The Globe and Mail headline for December I 0, I 996, says: Attack roots of crime, report urges. Mr.

Hughes says, and I quote, it is imperative that federal, provincial and territorial governments address the fact that poverty-stricken people with no marketable skills, no job and no job prospects are languishing under explosive conditions in Canada's prisons." Then he says Canada and Manitoba, in particula r, must commit more resources to attacking the root causes of crime, one of which he says is poverty. Then this spring we had a report issued by the United Way, a rather unusual report.

I am wondering if the United Way does not regret now that it became public or that they voluntari ly agreed to make it public, because there were things in it that we normally never hear from the United Way. We mig ht occasional ly hear it from a spokesperson for an individ ual United Way funded agency but not from the United Way itself . It was the result of a consultation that they had with executive directors, and the United Way, to their credit, listened to the 47 executive directors of human service agencies in the city.

But the report itself was actually a very good critique of what is happening in the city and this province, and they said that poverty is the origin for almost all of Winnipeg's social problems. Anger and despair are rising and with them crime and violence, and I quote from the report: Driven by deficit reduction, governments at all levels are decreasing and shifting funding for services. As well, they are changing their roles in maintaining the social safety net and looking to the community to take more responsibil ity for creating, managing and sustaining programs.

They go on to say that this results in indiv idual and community needs not being addressed fully or not being addressed at all. Agencies fear that the social safety net has many holes and stated that a full impl ication of these changes has not yet been felt. If shrinking resources force social agencies to cut back too, there will be serious consequences threatening the physical and emotional health of individuals and the community. It said the number of poor chi ldren has risen from 36,000 in I 989, shortly after this government took office, to 42,000 today. I could go on and on and quote from that report.

We have agency dir ectors who are quite forthright about not only the problems in the community, but what they are being told by government in how to deal with some of these problems. For example, one agency dir ector said to me that they needed money to work with youth, and they feel that they are competing with prostitution and drugs, and that those are revenue generating illegi timate businesses that put money into the pockets of youth. This agency dir ector told this to business people, and they get told, well, you need to be more innovative and you need to get rid of waste and dupl ication.

What the agency directors are saying is, we do not duplic ate; in fact, there are not enough services. They have also been told that there needs to be more innovative programming. But they believe that there are lots of innovative programming out there now. *( 151 0) Basically what we are seeing in response to an increasing problem of poverty, particularly child poverty, and we have a story here from the Free Press from October I 9, I 996, that says 29 percent of kids in Manitoba live in poverty. Manitoba has the second highest percentage of children living in poverty next to Newfoundland.

It is appalling that Manitoba should be compared to Newfoundland, truly one of the have-not provinces in Canada. In fact, I believe, the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) was just saying in Question Period the other day that after Alberta, B. C. and Ontario, that Manitoba ranks fourth-and I cannot remember what indi cator it is-but to think that we are ninth out of tenth, that we are second worst compared to Newfoundland when it comes to child poverty is appalling. What we are seeing in response to this is increasingly governments and other people are turning to charity solutions.

I think a very good example is the minis ter's colleague, the Honourable David Newman, suggesting at a public forum at the friendship centre that if people cannot get furniture, which he was told at this public forum, that they should set up a warehouse at the friendship centre and hire people to run this used- -

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 13 furniture centre which would access furniture from donations. He was quite severely criticized at the forum for that, but unfortunately these ideas take legs, and I understand that the idea is going ahead. I think that is an example of the desperation that people have. They do not believe that charity solutions are adequate to meet people's needs, but out of sheer desperation when they are offered assistance by government to take advantage of that kind of solution, they take it, not because they want to but because they feel forced to.

The minis ter was also told that it is impossible for people on social assist ance to get the $15 0 a year special needs funding that used to be available, and this minis ter said, yes, that sounds li ke a good idea; do you need it? However, he was told by the audience, we know that the government will not bring it back, and he also was told, we cannot wait for the government to change. So I think there are much better solutions than the kinds of charity solutions that are being forced on people, but unfortunately I do not think this government is li stening to those concerns.

I was interested to hear that the minis ter wrote to the federal government about the Community Action Program for Child ren whose funding was supposed to run out, I think, at the end of March. I had meetings with people in the community who are running programs funded by CAPC, and they were very concerned, and they were prepared to have press conferences. I am glad that the min ister shared their concerns, but all of a sudden the funding was extended for another year. I would like to think that the minister's letter was influential.

Hopefully, the federal government got letters from 10 minis ters across Canada, but I think that the timing of the federal election was much more important. The federal Liberal government did not want the embarrassment of cutting programs for children just days before a federal election was called, so the funding has been continued, and we will have to see what happens after the current fiscal year. Actually it would be a shame if the funding was cut next year, because so many of these programs are good programs.

Certainly there is a need to evaluate them and to change priorities from time to time and to direct the funding to where it is most needed and best spent, but frequently what funding of this sort does is, it raises expectations in the community. People find out about a program. They get plugged in. They start taking

part in it. It helps them, it helps their children. Then all of a sudden the funding is gone and there is nothing there, and people are very disappointed. That concludes my opening remarks, and now we will get on to the questions. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minis ter for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minis ter's Salary is traditionally the last item consi dered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consi deration of this item and now proceed with consi deration of the next line.

Before we do that, we would invite the minis ter's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minis ter to introduce her staff present. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to introduce Tannis Mindell, who is the deputy minis ter for Family Services; and Ken Sharman, who is the assi stant deputy minis ter of Adminis tration and Fin ance. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the minis ter. We will now proceed to line 9 .1. Admini stration and Fi nance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $468,800. Shall the item pass? Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, you can be sure I will have a question about almost every line in the whole book, although I am going to try to restrain myself and try to ask as many questions as possible and not make as many statement as previous years so we can get through all this. My first question has to do with the organization of the department.

I have with me the mini ster's introductory comments from last year, May 10 , '96, and on page 6, she said: "The streamlined department now has three interrelated divisions, rather than four essentially separate divisions." I have the handout, the organizational chart that the mi nister gave me with three divisions, and now in this year's Estimates book, it looks like we are back to four divisions. So I am

4114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 wondering if the minister can explain when these changes took place and why? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I can explain the reasons why. Under the three-divisional structure, we had an associate deputy minister, Doug Sexsmith, who was in charge of Administration and Finance and our Empl oyment and Income Assistance programs. Doug has left us, actually a loss to the Manitoba government, I think.

He has gone into the private sector, a benefit to the private sector, because he was an extremely competent civil servant and provided many years of excellent service to governments. But as a result of that, we determined that we would separate the Administration and Finance function and the Emplo yment and Income Assistance functions under two assistant deputy ministers rather than one associate deputy minister. Mr. Martindale: When did this change take place? Mrs. Mitchelson : It was effective in January of this year. Mr.

Martindale: What was the cost of three assistant deputy ministers, and what is the cost of four assistant deputy ministers? Mrs. Mitchelson : The net saving as a result of the restructure was about $1 1 ,000 annual ly. Mr. Martindale: Pass this line. Mr. Chairperson: 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $468, 800-pass;

(2) Other expenditures $80, 700-pass. 9. l .(

c) Child ren's Advocate

(1) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $220,000. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to thank the minister for, I guess, making it possible to have an all -party committee. It has certainly been a very interesting experience to be reviewing the Childr en's Advocate

section of The Child and Family Services Act, and we look forward to writing our report and submitting it to the government. At a recent meeting of the committee, a motion was moved inviting the minister to come before the committee, and I think that is something that the minister would not be adverse to doing. I am sure that she can handle herself quite well. I am sure that she could bring Legal Counsel with her to answer any questions that we might have about writing the amendments to the act, and I was quite surprised when the Conservative members on the committee voted against that motion.

So now that I have the opportunity, since I know that this minister has nothing to be afraid of, I would like to ask the minister directly if she would agree to appear before the subcommittee on the Children's Advocate legisla tion in order to have a discussion with the committee with a view to helping us look at what the various options are before we write our report. * (1 520) Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess my sense-I mean, I would have no problem at all appearing before the committee. I think it is somewhat unprecedented in Manitoba for the minister to appear before a subcommittee.

I am a member of the Committee of Privile ges and Elections, and the subcommittee was struck to make recommendations to me as the minister around what the public had to say about changes or not making changes to the Children's Advocate office. My understanding of the whole process of the subcommittee was to go out and hear the public and come back and make recommendations to the committee and to me as minister around what the public had said and what your

interpretation of the public's comments were and report what changes needed to be made. I have no problem at all discussing issues around the Children's Advocate office here through my Estimates process. Certainly, as the Committee of the Whole gets together when the subcommittee reports, I am sure we will have some dial ogue and discussion, because, ulti mately, the report will have to be endorsed by the committee and ref erred to the House. So I think it is sort of an additional step in the process that is not actually needed. I would belie ve that the role of the subcommittee would have been to report back to me through the committee on what the public has said -

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4115 around changes that need to be made to the Advocate's office. Mr. Martindale: Well, I guess I understand the process. I think one of the reasons why we wanted to have the minister appear is that we are trying to write a consensus report. That is what all members have said. One concern is that we not recommend things that cannot legally be changed in the legis lation or cannot be written into legisla tion. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I would imagine that we could offer-I will ask just for a nod from officials here, but if there was a need for someone with a legal background to be present as the subcommittee delib erates around the recommendations, I think we could make that readily avai lable. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell us when she plans to bring in amendments to the Child ren's Advocate sections? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess I am looking to-- probably we are all, possibly, looking forward to the end of this session being some time this summer and that amendments, probably, given that my understanding is that the commi ttee will not be reporting to the House till around the middle of June, June 12 I think is the deadline for report back to the House, that we are probably looking at amendments next session unless there was something so very minor that was recommended that we might be able to get legisla tion drafted, but I would presume that it might be next session bef ore we can introduce those amendments.

Once the subcommittee's work is done, if there is a consensus report, we would then have to determine. I do not want to predetermine what the results of that subcommittee will be. If there is a dif ferent reporting structure or relationship, it would probably have to be a separate piece of legisla tion. In itself , it may not fall under The Child and Family Services Act if there is an expansion of role, and those are only if s.

If those recommendations do not come forward and there was only something very minor or insignifica nt, there might be the ability to do it this session, but given the timing and where we are at right now, it probably will not be till next year if there are signifi cant recommendations. Mr. Martindale: Well, having a new act introduced is an interesting hint from the minis ter, so I thank her for that. Mr. Chairperson: 9.l .(

c) Child ren's Advocate

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $220,000-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $82, 700- pass. 9 .1. (

d) Social Services Advi sory Committee ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me how many appeals there were to the committee, I guess, in the last fiscal year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, there were 1, 20 1. Mr. Martindale: How many were successful? Mrs. Mitchelson: It takes me a little while to get this figured out. There were a total of 1, 201: 68 were allowed, 448 were dismissed, 450 were withdrawn, 78 did not appear, 36 were outside the jurisdiction of the committee, and 40 are still in process. Mr. Martindale: What percentage were successful? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess if you look at the overall number and the number of withdrawn appeals that were obviously satisfactorily dealt with before it got to the appeal process of 450, with the number allowed, which would be 68, that would be a total of 518 that were resolved in a sati sfactory fashion which is almost half of the cases that were brought forward to the committee. Mr. Martindale: Well, the minister says that the ones that were withdrawn were successfully dealt with. Si nce the min ister has her staff here, I wonder if she could verify that. I do not really know why all those appeals were withdrawn. Mrs.

Mitchelson: My understanding is that either at the municipal level or the provincial level, whoever is responsible for that client or case, there is an agreement between the municipali ty or the province and the

41 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 appellant that the issue can be dealt with without going to appeal. So once it is satisfactorily resolved to the cli ent's satisf action, then the appeal does not go forward. Mr. Martindale: If we assume that the minis ter is correct in this, then according to my calculations, 68 successful appeals out of 5I8 is about II percent, which would be about average. Normally it is about I 0 percent, in that range, which I think is a very low rate of success.

I always encourage people when they phone me to appeal a decision because that is a legal right that people have, but I always warn them that about 90 percent fail, so their chances of being successful are not very good. Although if you look at the 450 that are withdrawn, that is an avenue that people can use and should use and obviously many people do use.

I wonder if the minis ter could break it down by legisla tion because the appeal process is available for The Social Services Adminis tration Act, The Employment and Income Assis tance Act, The Munic ipal Act, The Community Child and Daycare Standards Act, The Vulnerable Persons Living With A Mental Disabil ity Act. I wonder if the min ister has stats of appeals by legislation. * (I 530) Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay.

The actuals for '96-97 were 583 for munici pal assis tance, 553 for provincial assistance, I7 for 55 Plus, 37 for daycare, one for daycare lic ensing, seven for licensing of residential care facilities, two for VRDP, and one for The Vulnerable Persons Act. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me if some areas are more successful than others in terms of appeals? Almost all the calls that I get are social assi stance, but I would be quite happy to advise people if their chances are better for some kinds of legisla tion than others when I am referring people to the Social Services Advi sory Commit tee. Mrs.

Mitchel son: It looks to me like it is fairly well equal between municipal and provincial assistance. Under municipal assis tance, 23 were allowed; under provincial assistance, 25 were allowed; under daycare subsidy, it looks like certainly more were withdrawn or dismi ssed or allowed. There was one allowed for dismis sed under daycare subsidy, but there were 3I withdrawn. So it looks li ke many of those issues are resolved without the appeal process having to take place. Reside ntial care: one was withdrawn, three were dismi ssed, and one was allowed.

One did not appear, and there is one still waiting for an outcome. Mr. Martindale: Is this an appropriate line to ask about welfare fraud, or should I wait until we get into Income Assistance? Mrs. Mitchelson: Probably better to wait for Income Assis tance. Mr. Chairperson: 9. I .Adminis tration and Fi nance (

d) Social Services Adviso ry Committee (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $I8 3, 700-pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $15 7 ,600-pass. 9. l .(

e) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mrs. Mitchelson: Excuse me, Mr. Chairperson. Just before Isabel leaves, I do not think I introduced Isabel to my honourable friend. Ms. Furtado-we will have to get that spelling for Hansard-is the staffperson for the Social Services Advisory Commit tee, and this is Keith Watts from Human Resources, who has just joined us at the table. Thanks, Isabel. Mr. Cha irperson: We are under l. (

e) Human Resource Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $796,000. Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minis ter for the introductions. It is always good to put a face on the civil servants that I talk to on the phone from time to time. I notice in the Estimates book under Expected Results it says: "Revision of the staff orientation program for the Manitoba Developmental Centre." I wonder if the min ister could explain what this is. Mrs. Mitchelson: What is happening is to ensure that we have continuing education and support so that the staff there are trained to meet the challenges that exist -

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 17 with an aging population at MDC and some of those issues. Mr. Martindale: Does this indica te that there are any changes taking place at MDC? Mrs. Mitchelson: At MDC they are trying a more cli ent-f ocused approach to improve ratios of clients to staff, a more direct service provision and more people providing direct service and less adminis tration. Mr. Cha irperson: 9.1 .(

e) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $796,000- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $89,3 00-pa ss. 9. l .(

t) Policy and Planning

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $75 1 ,600. Mrs. Mitchelson: If I could just introduce Drew Perry who is the executive director of Policy and Planning. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minis ter for that inf ormation. Mr. Martindale: I have some more general questions and specific questions for 9- 1, and I am not sure whether this is the right place. So if it is not, maybe the minis ter could let me know.

I helped one of my constituents apply for a pension from Great Britain and one of the pieces of information that was enclosed with the application form is a pamphlet from the Pensions and Overseas Benefits Di rectorate, and it is called Customer Service Statement.

Now, I do not really like describing public services as customer service, however my question is: Would the minis ter be willi ng to put out some kind of pamphlet, if you do not have one already, similar to this- which I will pass to the minister-ab out the Department of Family Services, or maybe one for each division in Family Services, spelling out what kind of services the public is entitled to and the department expects to provide? I think it is a good idea, and if your minis try already has something like this, I guess I would be interested in seeing it. But I will pass this over to the mini ster. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is my understanding we do have pamphlets on most of the services that are provided from our department, and I will endeavour to obtain copies of all of those for my honourable friend. But I want to thank him for this. I think we always have to look at reviewing what information we are providing to the public, and there might be some good ideas in here that we mig ht want to look at if we are contemplating change. * (1 540) Mr. Martindale: Of course, I am familiar with most of the exis ting publications, and I guess my general impression would be that they are descriptions of programs.

I think this pamphlet is a little bit dif ferent in that it is a description of what that particular department of government provides and what the public can expect in terms of what they call customer service, which I think may be dif ferent than the pamphlets that the minis ter is referring to in her department. So I am pleased that the min ister will take a look at it and will hope that she will think it is a good idea and we mig ht see something forthcoming from this department. I have a couple of documents in front of me, government documents.

One looks like it is from a special operating agency, namely Fleet Vehicles, and it has Travel Dis tance

Summary by Client, meaning government department, for a fiscal year. This is pretty old. Oh, I just disco vered it is very old, it is 1991, but the reason it twigged my interest is that it has got almost every government department but I could not find Family Services, and I kind of wondered why. So I will pass this over and let the minis ter's staff look at it, and maybe there is an explanation that the minis ter can provide? Meanwhile, maybe I will go on to something else. I have a rather interesting internal document that somehow got out. Oh, it is a Treasury Board submission.

I always have fun with Treasury Board submissions. This one has already been made public. It has to do with Partners for Careers staffing. There is some money from this min ister's department. It says Child and Family Services provincial funding $23 5,000, '95-96. I am just wondering if that money was reallocated from something else or whether that was part of the budget. It says '95-96 fiscal year, so I

41 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 guess I am just wondering if that was a budget appropriation and whether it was spent and whether that was a shifting around of money or whether that was something that was budgeted in advance? And I will pass this over to the minis ter as well. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I have no recollection of Child and Family Services or our department being involved in this at all, but I will have staff review it and try to get an answer back to my honourable friend. Mr.

Martindale: One question that I ask every year which the minis ter enjoys answering, not that it is an uncontroversial topic, because it is a cost to the province of Manitoba, but what is the cost to date of the federal government's offloading of social assis tance costs for off-reserve Fir st Nations people? I know the minis ter keeps a running tally on this so hopefully she will be able to tell me. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we estimate about $25 million a year and the running total would be about $10 0 million now for the last four years. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for that inf ormation. It is too bad that the Li beral critic is not in Family Services Estima tes. In fact, they seem to boycott Family Services Estimates, they are here so seldom. It is really a shame that they do not have questions for the Minis ter of Family Services since there still is federal money coming to Manitoba and since there have been cuts from the federal government to the Province of Manitoba, but I guess they have priorities other than Family Services.

I notice in the Estimates book there are pie graphs, for example on page 17 , percentage distribution of staff years by category, and there are several pie graphs. I am wondering if the min ister can give us percentages of spending by division in her department. This is staff year spending, and that is interesting inf ormation, but I am wondering if you could tell us what the percentages are for different parts, I guess the four parts of this department. Mrs. Mitchelson: That is on page 9, I think, if you look. See if we are talking about the same thing. Mr.

Martindale: Thank you for pointing me to the correct page. I wonder if the minis ter could tell me if there have been any major changes in recent years in terms of the proportions for different parts of the department. Mrs. Mitchelson: On page 76, that would be right near the back of the book, I think it does give an indication of what the changes have been over the last four or five years. Employment and Income Assistance I believe would have gone down, and Community Living and Child and Family may have gone up in expenditures. Admin and Fi nance is down also. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the mi nister questions about Order- in-Council 90119 97 dated February 12 , 19 97. This is an Order- in-Counc il regarding, I do not know what you call this, interim appropriation? No, Special Warrant. In Family Services, there are two item s: Income Security and Regional Operations $3,984,000; and Child and Family Support $3 ,1 29,000. I wonder if the minis ter can tell me if the reason for this Special Warrant is that those two parts of our department were expected to be over budget by March 31 and therefore the Special Warrant was to provide more money. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, that is absolutely correct. Mr. Martindale: I assume then that under Employment and Income Assi stance that either the caseload was higher or for some reason the demand was higher for Income Assis tance clie nts, higher, that is, than the budgeted amount and therefore a Special Warrant was necessary, is that correct? Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I think my honourable friend is correct. We budgeted a certain amount and we found that we were short money based on our expectations or anti cipation that the welfare caseloads would go down lower than they actually did.

So we needed an extra three point some million dollars, I guess, in order to ensure that we covered the full cost. If I can just add to that, I guess the case loads did go down maybe not quite as much as we antici pated, but the cost per case was higher than what we had estimated. -

May 28, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4119 * (1 550) Mr. Martindale: I guess I would like to ask the minis ter to explain what she means by the costs were higher because-I do not have the numbers here and I guess we will get into it in the next secti on-but the City of Winnipeg, at one point, was down about 3,000 clients, and I know that this minis ter put out a press release saying that about 800 I think single parents had gone back to work. So I wonder if the minis ter could explain the higher costs per case. Mrs.

Mitchelson: We did reach our estima ted goal of the number of people we thought would be off of social allowance. On the single -parent side which would be the provincial caseload, I guess what we overestima ted was the saving that would result as a result of single parents going into work, and we mi ght have estimated based on a certain family size. Probably those with smaller families moved off of welfare, so the cost per case was higher than what we had estimated.

Also, it was interesting to note that about a million dollars was for health services related expenditures, that we had spent a million dollars more than what we had estimated we would spend on health services for social allowances recipients. Mr. Martindale: This figure that we are talking about is almost $4 milli on. Could the minis ter tell us if that $4 million was expended or underexpended? Mrs. Mitchelson: We did not require the whole $4 milli on. I am just being told that we do not have the final numbers, but it was considerably lower than the $4 milli on. Mr.

Martindale: Under Child and Family Support, Maintenance of Child ren and External Agencies, would it be correct that Maintenance of Child ren refers to monies given to Child and Family Services agencies? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, that is all for maintenance of chi ldren through our Child and Family Services agencies. Now, you know we have some mandated agencies, and in some areas of the province our Regional Operations provides that kind of service. So that is for support and maintenance of chi ldren in our child welfare system. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me if external agencies are the same ones that are in the list of grants to external agencies that the minis ter hands out in Estimates or something different? Mrs. Mitchelson: I just need a little bit of clarification. We are talking about the special warrants still, the additional money that was provided and that would have gone to-there was no agency that received a grant from the department, external agency, other than mandated agencies. So it is the mandated agencies or our Regional Operations that deliver child welfare that would have required the additional support.

I believe most of that money, by far, went to the Winnipeg Child and Family Services Agency. Mr. Martindale: So in this line when it says external agencies, that is not the same as the list of grants to external agencies that you table. Mrs. Mitchelson: No. When we are talking external agencies, that would be the mandated child welfare agencies. Many of the external agencies that we fund are not mandated, and they would not have had their grants increased. Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me when I could expect to get the list of grants to external agencies? Mrs. Mitchel son: Tomorrow. Mr.

Martindale: Thank you. There are a couple of items under Fi nancial and Adminis trative Services that I have questions about. Well, maybe I will continue on the special warrant. Does this mean that the budgeting was not accurate for Child and Family Support and that the agencies ran out of money and the minis ter had to allocate more money to these agencies by way of a Special Warrant? Mrs. Mitchelson: As I indicated, the money primarily went to Winnipeg Child and Family Services, and it

412 0 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 was because they overexpended their budget by some $3.5 mil lion-plus. Mr. Martindale: Well, my recollection is that in the past the Provincial Auditor has commented on the inadequacy or the problems in budgeting for Winnipeg Child and Family Services, and so has the Chil dren's Advocate. It seems that every year we have the same problem, in fact problems. I think there are a number of problems.

One is that the money runs out before the end of the fiscal year so the government has to allocate more funds to them and, secondly, the budget request is seldom met and so in a subsequent year the grant is incr eased and it basically pays of f the debt from the previous year. So I am wondering why the government is not doing realistic budgeting for Winnipeg Child and Family Services? Mrs. Mitchelson: I think we have had some discussio ns around the Winnipeg agency every year, and I do want to indica te to my honourable friend that we certai nly have serious concerns.

I have said many times, and I have said many times publicly, do we really believe that more money means better service, or is there in fact a way that services could be delivered in a dif ferent fashion that would serve the needs of chil dren and families better that would not require milli ons and mill ions of dollars of additional support year after year? That is what we have seen in Winnipeg Child and Family. It has been signifi cant.

Every year there is anywhere from $3 milli on to $6 million or $7 milli on more required in the Winnipeg agency to deliver service, and I guess the big question for us and one of the areas we are trying to work very aggressively with Winnipeg Child and Family Services on is, are we getting good value for the dollars that we are spending or is there a better way that we can work together to try to ensure that services are provided? We struggle. Year by year the agency comes in with a budget and then they end up spending more than what they have antic ipa ted they are going to spend.

So I guess the big question for all of us is, and I do not have the answer today, and I am not sure we do have any concrete answer: Do we need to continue to spend an additional $4 million or $5 million every year to serve children? I mean, I guess the big question for me is, are we finding that child ren are being better served? Are there fewer problems? Do we have less family dysfunction? Are we really doing the job or is there a better way to do that?

I think we need to work co-opera tively with the agency, certainly questions that I have asked on a regular basis. * (1 600) I do know that the agency does attribute some of the issues and the increas ing issue and the increasing cost on our aboriginal population in the city of Winnipeg. Now 70 percent of their caseload, they say, is of aboriginal background. I guess I would like to see development and partnership with the aboriginal community in Winnipeg to try to resolve some of these issues. We have nonmandated agencies like Ma Mawi.

Surely we can develop some sense of how we can best deliver that service to aboriginal people with support and ideas and suggestions from the aboriginal community. I am encouraging that kind of acti vity at the Winnipeg agency to ensure that our aboriginal leadership in the city of Winnipeg is very involved in helpin g to find the solutions. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me if it is the practice at Winnipeg Child and Family Services to submit a budget to this minis ter and, if so, do you allocate their budget request or are you giving them less than they request and then have to make it up through Special Warrants? Mrs. Mitchelson: They do submit to us sort of a general budget proposal. We work with them to see what we think might be realistic and ultimately every year they seem to come in over budget. Mr. Martindale: Well, why do we have this problem every year? Somebody needs to do some realistic budgeting, and it does not seem to happen.

Why? Mrs. Mitchelson: Good question. I do not have the answer. We are trying really hard to work with Winnip eg, to look at what would be a realistic figure for support, but the answer that comes back from the agency, I think, is that they cannot predetermine what kids are going to need to be taken into care, what kinds of services are going to need to be provided, and what the cost mig ht be. I guess I struggle with the whole issue of what Child and Family Services is expected to be to all families and to the community. We have

May 28, 19 97 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4121 talked about this with the agency, with the board. What are the services that the agency is providing? Are they providing services that possibly should be looked at being provided outside of our mandated agencies? Are we duplica ting services in the agency that could be done by other nonmandated agencies? Certainly protection work has to be the responsibi lity of the mandated agencies, but I am trying to get a sense or a handle. I wish I had the answer and I do not at this point in time.

We are working aggressively with the agency to try to determine what kinds of service and what the definition of those services should be. As an example, there was some work done by the Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat, and I do not have the figures right in front of me right now, but there are some 11 7 or 12 7 child ren in the province of Manitoba that we spend $17 million on. I do not know if I have my figures right or not. [i nterjection] It is, and many of those are part of our Child and Family Services system.

Is Child and Family the right place to be delivering those services or do we need a plan of action that looks at a dif ferent way of delivering those services to those chil dren? I can probably talk around in circles. I do not have the answers. I wish I did. I have to be honest with my honourable friend. But I am really concerned that we are seeing increasing numbers and increasing costs for children in care, and I am not sure that we are working with all of the community that needs to be worked with in a very meaning ful way to try and find some of the answers and the solutions.

I honestly feel that if we have 70 percent of our chi ldren in care in the city of Winnip eg that are aboriginal, we need to have more aboriginal input into how we find the answers. Mr. Martindale: Well, we can follow this up later in Estimates in Child and Family Services. I am ready to pass this line. Mr. Cha irperson: 9. l .(

f) Policy and Planning

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefi ts $75 1 ,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $17 5,700-pass 9. l .(

g) Fi nancial and Administra tive Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: I am sorry that I did not bring Public Accounts with me, but one of the things that I discussed with people in the Provincial Auditor's office was, I guess, broadly speaking, the issue of holding government accountable.

As an opposition critic it is fairly easy to ask questions in Estimates but, when it comes to how the money has already been spent, it is a little bit harder even looking at Public Accounts, because the amount of money that is given to each organization, each individ ual is printed with the name of the organization and the total amount for the fiscal year.

With Family Services it is about five pages of names and amounts and, except for going through it and reading it one at a time and looking for strange things that you have never heard of before, most of which have explanations, like licensed family daycare operators or bringing it to Estima tes and asking the minis ter individual questions which mi ght take a long time to answer, I wonder if there is a better way of doing it.

My suggestion would be to divide it up according to the four categories of your department and then at least we would know under which category of the department the money was spent on behalf of, because the way it is now, well, maybe this is going a little bit too far, but it is totally useless inf ormation and, yet, we are talking about hundreds of mil lions of dollars, and it is extremely dif ficult to hold the government accountable for the spending of this hundreds of milli ons of dollars the way it is now. Now, I suppose this is out of the hands of the Min ister of Family Services.

Maybe it is the Minis ter of Fin ance or maybe it is the Auditor, I am not sure, but I am wondering if this minis ter is will ing to suggest to her colle agues or to the Auditor that the financial inf ormation be arranged differently. Would you be willing to do that? Mrs. Mitchelson: My honourable friend is correct when he says that it really is outside my responsibility. There is a format that provides a listing through Public Accounts that is standard across government. It is not different department by department.

Maybe we could look at making it different department by department to try to confuse the opposition, but I think it is more impor tant to have a standard format so you know what you are looking at. But I have no dif ficulty in indicating to my colleague the Minister of Fi nance (Mr. Stefanson), if that is the appropriate place, that you

412 2 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 19 97 have made a suggestion that the fonnat for Public Accounts should be changed, and I am prepared to do that. Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for that of fer, and I am wondering if she could put that in writing in a letter or memo to the minister and copy me so that we can follow up in Finance Estimates or follow up with the Minis ter of Finance at some future date. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I could certainly undertake to do that.

It might be very appropriate for my honourable friend to do that directly or to have his Finance critic do that directly to the Minis ter of Finance. I guess I do have to make a comment that my honourable friend's party was in government for several years. I do not imagine the fonnat has been changed significantly with the change in government, so it has probably been a standard practice for many, many years. * (1610 ) Mr. Chair person: Item 9. 1. (

g) Financial and Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,738 ,200;

(2) Other Expenditures $470,500. Mr. Martindale: I am wondering if the minister can answer some questions about some of the agreements that I presume the government has with different associations, I guess, that provide services to social assistance cl ients, for example, dental. I know that there is a dispute going on with a dentist in The Pas about providing service. Basically, an individual withdrew service, and I understand that the cl ients were being forced to take the bus to Flin Flon.

My coll eagues were concerned about this, suggesting that the cost of the social assistance recipients travell ing to Flin Flon is probably more than what the government was willing to pay to the dentist. I am wondering if this dispute with this individual dentist has been resolved. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the dispute has not been resolved, but I do want to indicate that there are negotiations that are ongoing and the dentists have agreed to provide emergency services in the interim until, hopefully, we can come to some agreement through negotiation. Mr.

Cha irperson: Before recognizing the honourable member for Burrows, I am just going to, for the sake of Hansard, refer to item (

g) Financial and Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $1, 738, 200-pass. Mr. Martindale: Is the minister ref erring to negotiations with the individual dentist or with the dental association for Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, with the dental association. As I indicated, the dentists in The Pas have agreed to provide emergency services until we can conclude those negotiations. Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that the government also has an agreement with funeral home operators in Manitoba and that they have not had any increase now for quite a few years.

The compla int that I get from them is that they are losing money on funerals for Income Assistance clients. I wonder if the minister has received any request from their association to renegotiate their fees. Mrs. Mitchelson: We have, Mr. Chairperson, just recently completed negotiations and have a signed agreement with the funeral directors in the province. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister give me more detailed infonna tion about the agreement? Was there an increase in compensation to individual funeral home operators for Income Assistance cl ients' funerals? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, we do not have a copy of the agreement with us, but I believe there was a sl ight increase in the agreement that was signed. We can endeavour to bring a copy of that agreement tomorrow. Mr. Chair person: Item 9. l .(

g) Financial and Admini strative Services

(2) Other Expenditures $4 70,500-pass. 9 .l .(

h) Infonnation Systems (

I) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $I, 5I 2,400. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me what stage we are at in tendering for a computer system for the -

May 28, 19 97 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 412 3 amalgamated provincial and City of Winnipeg social assist ance systems? Mrs. Mitchelson: IBM does have the contract. They are in the re-engineering-redesign phase working with the City of Winnipeg staff and our staff to try to determine what the system should look like. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me when the former associa te minis ter Mr. Doug Sexsmith went to work for IBM? Mrs. Mitchelson: January of 19 97. Mr.

Martindale: Does his contract with IBM or do government guidelines prohibit him from working on government contracts for a specified period of time? Mrs. Mitchelson: There is a conflict-of -interest clause that prohibits him from solici ting business for a year. Mr. Martindale: It seems to me that solic iting business and working on a contract are two dif ferent things. This process was already in the works between IBM and KPMG, Online, and my understanding is that Mr. Sexsmith went to IBM to provide advice on government business, so I wonder if the min ister could clarif y. Mrs.

Mitchelson: He is working across the country for IBM, and he is not doing anything with the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minis ter for clarif ying that for me. I wonder if the min ister could tell me, if it is appropriate under this line, what is happening with the Child and Family Services' computer system? My understanding is that their new system has been in the imple mentation phase for quite a number of years, and I frequently hear frustration on the part of staff about that computer system. I wonder if the mini ster can bring me up to date on it. Mrs.

Mitchelson: The infrastructure is now stable and user support has increased dramatically. The user base has grown from the original 450 users to 800 users. As of December 19 96, Western Manitoba and Central Manitoba have completely incorporated CFSIS into their normal work routine, and both agen

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8bcbe8f3bf604d4b229cd38f72e58617c3b5665f

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