ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 248 - 8:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 17 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ruaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. . DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, lloyd JOHNSTO N, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNA TS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCH ARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie scon; Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. Jarnes Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 17 May , 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUP PLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MA. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are now considering Item No. 2(d)(1) and 2(d)(2) relating to Leased Accommodations, Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Member for Portage. MA. L. HYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, when we left for the supper hour, we were discussing the 27.5 percent increase, which I consider to be a large increase in salaries, and I believe it has been covered to the point where it's acceptable as far as explanation. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know from the Minister the number of thousands of square feet of space that is being rented by the different departments, could you give me those figures? MA. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. A. ADAM: lt might take a little while to get a breakdown of each department. we have totals. I would imagine that we can get those figures, it'd take a little while. MA. L HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I realize that it probably will take time, but I would appreciate if you could get me the breakdown of it for future reference if you would please. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, certainly we'll do that. MA. L HYDE: Also, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like when he's looking up these figures I also want, if he will, to indicate the number of thousands of square feet of space that is presently being paid for by the taxpayers, but today is empty or not occ upied, would he give me those figures as well? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, I think we can give you those figures. I can give you those figures now. They're approximately 3 percent. MA. L. HYDE: Three percent of? HON. A. ADAM: Of the total. That would be 247 usable vacant space.

Vac ant space that is usable is 0.7; that would be less than 1 percent of the total government lease and owned space under the Department of Government Services' control. MA. L. HYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I suppose this here could acc ount for 15.8 percent increase in expenditures. What is that 15 .8 percent in expenditures? HON. A. ADAM: In the Other Expenditures? 941 MA. L HYDE: In the Other Expenditures, yes. HON. A. ADAM: Well, most of that is anticipated price inc reases for all existing leases that would be anticipated.

We have to renegotiate every year when the leases come up for renewal and there's also annual inc reases I'm advised by staff. So we have there 51 7.7 for anticipated price increases for all existing leases and this is offset by minor unanti cipated cancelled leases. Then there has been some leases in'8 3-84 that have not yet been included in the figures. So that is 358.7, if you're taking it down. MA. L. HYDE: Well, no, I'll have to . . . HON. A. ADAM: The other is planned new leases that may be coming up in the next year. MA. L. HYDE: In the next year or two, yes. HON. A.

ADAM: Yes, there's 829.8 anticipa ted requirements. That is where you get your increase of 1, 706.2 over'83-84 Estimates. That's the full explanation there. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MA. A. NOADMAN: Are we paying the market price, generally the market price, and what might that be per square foot? HON. A. ADAM: lt depends where we're acquiring space. If it's in the downtown area, that is where the highest rental per square foot is; if you go out to the outskirts, it's lower; if you go out in the rural areas, it's again compares favourably with the outskirts, suburban areas.

We try to, as much as possible, if there is space available in the suburban areas and If it fits in with the group that you're trying to accommodate. You can't have half a group downtown and half a group way out on the outskirts. That just won't work. You have to have them consolidated as much as possible. MA. A. NOADMAN: Did I misunderstand when you said that the leases are being negotiated every year? I got the impression that the leases were only for a year at a time. Did I get the wrong impression? HON. A.

ADAM: Some leases are for a year, but we try to get longer-term leases because we get a more favourable rate. MA. A. NOADMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think that the M PlC in Eaton Square, for instance, I think that's a 10-year lease, is it not? HON. A. ADAM: I'll have to check that out. We wouldn't be responsible for it. MA. A. NOADMAN: You wouldn't be responsible for that, they do that on their own then?

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 HON. A. ADAM: Ifs d Crown corporation. MR. A. NORDMAN: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1 )-pass; 2.(d)(2)-pass. 2.(e)

(1) Employee Housing: Salaries; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(e)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations -the Member for Assiniboia. MR. A. NORDMAN: The employee housing, if you would just give us a little explanation on that, Mr. Chairman, I'd appreciate it. Is this housing from out In the rural areas where employees are stationed? HON. A. ADAM: The Employee Housing Program provides and maintains housing for gover nm ent emplo yees in areas where housing is not readily available throughout the province. At present we have four staff that are involved in the admin istration and supervision of that program. . MR. A. NORDMAN: Could the Mi nister tell us where they are?

HON. A. ADAM: Yes, we could. We have one at Portage la Prairie. We haven't got the total. What I have here is some that have become surplus and that we're trying to dispose of. We can get a list of the housing. MR. A. NORDMAN: If you would just for information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: I understand that you will be able to supply us with the list of getting . . . housing. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, thafs correct. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2.(e) (1)-p ass; 2. (e)(2 )-pass; 2.(e)(3)-pass. 2.(f)( 1) Security Services: Salaries; 2.(f)

(2) Other Expendit ures -the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'll yield to the Member for Portage la Prairie, Mr. Chairman. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I believe it was during their first Session when this government took office that the Minister decided it would be more efficient and possibly less costly to the taxpayer to hire government staff to handle the government security duties throughout the province. The government has decided to cut back on contracting out security duties. My question, Mr.

Chairman, Is how much more is it costing the taxpayer today to hire only government staff rather than contracting out their duties? MR. CHAIRMA N: The Min ister of Bus iness Development. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I just want to correct an error in the remarks of my friend opposite. He probably isn't aware of it, but we did not make the claim that there was going to be less cost in going into in-house operations with security. We said we would 942 have better security but it would cost more. So we shouldn't get that confused. We never claimed that there would be a reduction in costs.

We said it would cost quite a bit more. MR. L HYDE: In that case then, Mr. Chairman, are we moving towards more in-housing contracting if this be the case of what the previous Min ister has just stated? Are we moving towards more in-house duties? HON. A. ADAM: We are not moving any this year. We are staying where we are for the present. There are still a number of facilities that are contracted out. There's still three areas that are still not covered by our in-house security staff but are contracted out. We are not moving this year on any. MR. L HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, did I understand you to say, Sir, that we have only three areas today that are not being serviced by in-house contracting? HON. A. ADAM: Just three, yes . MR. L HYDE: Mr. Chairman, can you not indicate to me then, whether it's a saving to us at this point in time. Is it a saving or If it is not a saving you're still firm in the thought that you're getting better service by the in-staff security dut ies? HON. A. ADAM: That has certainly been proven as far as the maintenance staff is concerned, that Is definite. We believe that we are getting much better security with our own staff.

There's more training, we have control of the training and our security staff go out from time to time. We send people out to take training with the police and they're a better-trained staff than you could get from maybe -not to downgrade any of the contracting out, but we know that we have a good security staff now. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like the Minis ter, if he could, to indicate to me and give me a figure as to how much more it is costing the government, the province to have this in-staff security over the private contracting out? HON. A.

ADAM: I'm afraid that information I wouldn't be able to provide at this time. I don't kno w If we can provide it or not, I don't know whether we would be able to do that. We might have comparable figures for the year that it was done, but how are we going to? lfd be very difficult to check out. MR. L. HYDE: I don't know whether tha t's acceptable at this time, Mr. Chairman. Surely to goodness you have within your department figures that indicate the difference in costs. You must have that somewhere. HON. A. ADAM: We would only have that perhaps in the year that it was done and that might be two, three years ago.

MR. L HYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it'd be too much to ask the Min ister to supply us with some

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 figures as to the difference in costing of the two types of security. While I'm on this security, I wonder if the Minister could indicate to me just who is supplying the security for the Portage public building. Is it private or is it staffed by ... HON. A. ADAM: That is private. MR. L. HYDE: That is private today? Would you inform me what company it is? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, I think we can. I apologize to the honourable member, my director was trying to give me the message across and I got the wrong message I guess. Portage is in-house security.

The only three areas left is Keewatin Community College in The Pas, and the University of Manitoba Agriculture Building, and the Provincial Laboratory; that's the only three. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to follow up a little bit on the Member for Portage la Prairie's question dealing with the security contracting. The Minister is indicating, and the former Minister indicated that we are getting better security service by the hiring of in-house people. What evidence or what proof does the Minister have that this is, in fact, taking place?

We are paying a lot more money. Do we have more people hired than were traditionally looking after the security, for example, of this particular building here? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, while my staff is getting the information for me, I can tell you that we certainly feel that we have better standards not only of security but of wages for the people who are working and that has to be taken into consideration, as well as the training of the staff.

We know that they do take training, and they send people out from time to time to take security service training, and we think we're getting good value for our expenditures. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm asking for some examples of better performance by government employed people than by contractual people. Is one of the examples that the Minister is using as the hiring of an individual that has caused one member of the Cabinet a certain amount of anguish and the person recently was picketing in front of this building?

Is that the kind of security that we're now seeing being hired or is that an example of the kind of competence that the government is demonstrating in the hiring of security staff? Is that an example of government operations versus contracting of private sector? I want some proof that the hiring of government security is better than the contracting, and from what I've seen so far it's to the contrary, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, well, I think I know the individual whom you are referring to and I would say that that would have to be an aberration of what is the norm. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, what examples can the Minister give us that prove to the public that more 943 money being spent in this particular appropriation, by hiring of government, gives this building and other buildings better security than we had previously under a contractual basis? We're spending more taxpayers' money to hire people to give security. We've got evidence that the government itself hasn't had the kind of service I think that it would have liked to have seen, and now he's just wanting this committee and the public to say spend more money, we're getting better service, and you do so on my word.

I want him to provide some evidence to this committee that that's in fact taking place. Are there more people employed? Do we have a better security system than we had previously? I want evidence, and I haven't seen the Minister give any yet, and I want it. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, we do not have any more staff than we had previously. They are better paid people, and they are having a higher standard of living. Security staff are paid under contract. lt would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that people who are paid adequately are satisfied in their work, and they can perform better.

If you think for one moment that people who are not adequately paid for the work and the risk that they're taking - morale is low, and I think that generally speaking you may not have a happy group of people working. But, Mr. Chairman, I don't know what else the Minister wants. If he has any complaints to make about the security that we have now, I wish he would say so. If he has any complaints to make, we will take them under consideration and see if they can be addressed.

But just to come in and go on a fishing trip, I think is not really fair to the staff, the very competent staff that we believe in, and we think they're doing an excellent job. There is ongoing training from time to time for this staff, and we're satisfied for the dollars that we're spending. If the Member for Arthur has any complaints, I wish he would bring them to our attention, and we'll try to address them. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the criticism of this government and this Minister is not the individuals who are doing the job. lt's the fact that we are paying more as taxpayers to have the service provided without evidence that we're getting any better service, any better security. We have the same number of people. We have seen evidence of what would be considered probably problems with the system that has been adopted by he, as the Minister, and his government. Certainly we all would like to see a better standard of living for everyone, but it's the taxpayers that are losing when we are providing that.

I don't think that the Minister - he should be able to provide evidence of people who were suffering under the former system, that they weren't making as much money as these people today, but he's not doing that. All he has done is add the inefficiencies of government to providing a service that was being done traditionally under a contractual basis and for less money. I want the Minister to either bring forward some evidence, or admit that it was done strictly on a philosophical basis, so that he could implant the people which he felt were supportive of his party.

Thuradar, 17 Mar, 1884 HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I think the last comment that the Member for Arth\.lr made, I think he should reflect on that. My understanding is that a number of staff were hired - I stand to be corrected. Were there not people given a chance to come In? There were a number of people that were on contr act that became regular staff, and I'm sure that their morale has increased, their standard of living is increased. I want to tell you that our philosophy is maybe perhaps different than the Member for Arthur where he'd like to see people working for half the wages that they should be getting.

That's not our philosophy, we think that people should be paid for what they'r e worth, not for what you can get them for. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mini ster of Business Development. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not through. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would hope that I could be allowed to finish my questioning of the Minister. I would, Mr. Chairman, like the Minister to then provide for us what the wage scale that these people were getting prior to the hiring by the government, prior to that on a contractual basis, and what they're obtaining now.

I think it's . . . HON. A. ADAM: I would be happy to do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, what Is it then, Mr. Chairman? I would ask the Minister to provide it now. HON. A. ADAM: I will provide that information for him as soon as we can, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, can he not substantiate? He just made a statement that they were in a far better off situation now than they were then. What is he going by to make that statement if he can't provide the information for us? What is he basing it on? HON. A. ADAM: I will provide that information for the mem ber.

I have given him that commitment, and I will do that. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, will the Minister withdraw his statements until he is prepared to provide that information as a factual basis? HON. A. ADAM: No, no. MR. J. DOWNEY: No, I want the information. He's making a statement which he can't substantiate - (Inte rjection) - well you know, I'm asking a fair question. Has the Min ister got the kind of evidence that he is working from, or what basis is he going from? I'll be fair to the mem ber. What is he working from as a basis for the statement that he just made? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, that was dealt with last year, and it was shown to be the case last year. lt will be shown to be the case again this year, what happened last year, and I will provide that information for the member. If he wants to be obstinate about it, he can carry on. MR. J. DOWNEY: If the Mini ster will provide that, it would be most helpful. I, Mr. Chairman, want to as well ask the Min ister, has ther e been any change in policy or security measures following upon the kind of terrible and misfortunate situation that took place in Quebec some two weeks ago?

Have there been any policy changes, security changes made dealing with any of th e Government Services Buildin gs or the Legislative Buildings, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, the front staff are giving a more better visual scrutiny of people coming in. We haven't got to the point of closing off the doors. Staff are forewarned to keep a better close watch of who is coming in. Because of their training and their experience, they are able to judge the kind of people that are coming in.

I think that, outside of that, we haven't gone beyond that, because we have had an open door policy as far as the acce ssibility of the building to the people of Manitoba. lt's their building, they have the right to come here. My own personal opinion is that I would not want to see this turned into a very tight security . I don't think it is required. We're still waiting to see what happened over there. lt appears tha t there was a very very disturbed individual. I know that the security there has tightened up considerably in the Province of Quebec, and certainly we can't blame them for doing that.

I suppose if it happened here, we would probably be looking at measures as well, but for the time being at least, we're stili watching what is happening in other provinces. We have no intention to do anything for the moment at least. 944 MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, before you (Interjection) - oh, I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Business Development. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think the Member for Arthur would want to leave on the record that there were political hirlngs as a result of a change in policy, because If he meant that, that would mean that he was accu sing a former Minister of hiring his political friends. Obviously, he isn't accusing this Minister of doing that, since this is a year-and-a-half to two years old.

I would ask the member to reflect on those comments, because that line of questioning was put at that time, and we did ind icate statistically at that time the number of applicants and the number that were hired and the process that was undertaken. lt was fully explained, and was not challenged then. The Min ister was not involved in that process. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Cha irman, the Min ister of Tourism, Economic Creation and Productivity and all

Thur.day, 17 May, 1984 the other animals that go with it - I apologize if I can't remember his total title. I maybe hit some of them, Mr. Chairman.

I do not want to leave on the record any ac cusa tions of people who are hired by the government, that they were in fact hired because of their political motivations or their political support, however, I want left on the record that it would be certainly a lot easier for a government, and this particular government having the track record they have, to pursue that line of hiring by having it on a hiring basis directly by government rather than a contractual basis as it was. That's what I would leave on the record, Mr. Chairman. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MA. L. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, from the statement that's been made by the Minister, it would appear that we're going to have to wait possibly till this time next year to get the figures that our colleague, the Member for Arthur, is asking for. I trust that this is not the case. I hope that you will supply us with the figures that we request. HON. A. ADAM: I think we can get them by Tuesday, if that's soon enough. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister of Busine ss Development. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, if it would expedite things, I would like to tell honourable members opposite that at the time the change was made we tabled the change in cost, which was very substantial. I believe it was in excess of $1 million ann ually, and we projected that over two or three years, so we were very up front with that information at the time that the change was made and we said we were doing it partly on principle and partly because we wanted a consistent policy, because we did have a two-tiered system then.

We had some employees that were in-house and others that were contract and we made the decision to go all in-h ouse; and we said it was going to cost more money and we gave you the num bers. lt's all a matter of record now. The num bers would be current because of the salary adjustments that have been made pursuant to salary negotiations, but that would be the only difference. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: If the Min ister can supply us with those figures, that's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)

(1) Security Services, Salaries­ pass; 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. 2.(g)( 1) Gimli Industrial Park: Salaries; (2)(g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, the Annual Report that · the Min ister gave ind icated that responsibiliti es lie in his department for 616 hectares in the Gimli Industrial Park, which contains some 72 buildings, 194 housing units, etc., etc., etc. Mr. Chairman, what is the situation today with the Gimli Park? Is it functioning well? HON. A. ADAM: it's not functioning as well as we'd like to see it function.

We're still operating at a deficit 945 at the Gimli Industrial Park. lt's difficult to say if you would take into consideration the spinoffs and the spinoffs it generates in the Gimli area in the form of additional business and additional wages and the economic activity for the park, it's difficult to say whether we're that far in a deficit position, but the buildings, of course, were constructed to last about five years. lt was a war time building facility and, of course, some of the buildings are obsolete, some should be probably demolished, some would take quite a lot of expense to renovate.

I can advise the Honourable Member for Portage that in the industrial part of the complex, 75 percent is occupied. MA. L. HYDE: Seventy-five percent occupied today. That's in the Industrial Park itself? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, the industrial space and the housing space is 55 percent. MR. L. HYDE: Fifty-five percent in housing units. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. Those are forecasts for occupancy in 1984-85, based on what is there now and any future MR. L. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, then my final question on the Gimli Industrial Park would be, could you indic ate to me just how much revenue is the government or the province receiving from that Industrial Park and units out there and the housing units? HON. A. ADAM: The 1984-85 estimated revenue would be $1 ,630,500.00. MR. L. HYDE: Pardon me, the figure? One million, you said. HON. A. ADAM: $1,630,500.00. MR. L. HYDE: For the year of'84-85. MA. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) - the Member for Assiniboia. MA. R. NOADMAN: How many SYs do we have out there? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, I could get you that. There are 55 SYs. MR. R.

NORDMAN: SYs at the Gimli Park? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. A. NOADMAN: And that is the total salary for those 55? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MA. CHAIRMAN: 2.(g)(1)- pass; 2.(g)(2)-pass; Gimli Indu strial Report, Salaries, 2.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass.

Thuraday, 17 M•J, 1 984 2.( h)

(1) Altera tio ns, Furniture, Furnishings and Incidental Expenses - Project Management, Minor Projects; 2.(h)

(2) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass. (j)( 1) Energy Management and Technical Services, Salaries; 2.(j)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Assiniboia. MA. A. NORDMAN: I'd just like to know a little bit about this particular department, what is the function of lt, Energy Management? HON. A.

ADAM: Yes, the Energy Management and Technical Services Branch is responsible for the development, implementation, and administration of the safety and training program to upgrade and train employees in the area of accident and fire prevention. lt provides support to various divisional programs in problem areas related to heating, air conditioning, air handling, electrical systems and related fire prevention and safety systems in office buildings and institutions throughout the province. lt provides the vigorous energy management program through analysis of the operation of the physical plant, implemen tation of energy conservation techniques, and recommend changes in the operating schedules, instruct operating personnel in energy management techniques, policy, and the efficient operation of building systems, and prepare reports with respect to energy management.

I might add that there have been a very substantial decrease in the cost of energy as a result of this division here and they're sure earning their dollars. I think it is a very very substantial decrease because of the work that they have undertaken. MA. R. NORDMAN: Could the Minister give us an example or two of what the savings are that have been made by this? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, one of the things that they do is meet with building supervisors and discuss with them ways and means of conserving energy. For instance, in this building we lower the temperature at night - I forget now exactly the degrees.

The energized parking meters are off and on; 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off. We lower the temperature of the water in the heating system as well. We also control the cooling in the summer as well. We've also did some retrofitting on some of the buildings. There's a number of areas where they have addressed the problem of reducing costs and they have been very very successful. We're very pleased and that is still continuing. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MA. L HYDE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that they're controlling the heat.

I wonder if there's any way they can control the heat a little better than they're doing. it's just unbearable in different parts of this building, as you are aware I'm sure, but it's just unbearable in some of the offices that we are sitting in. When we're talking about Technical Services, I wonder if there's any further studies been made towards the possibility of air conditioning in the entire building? 946 HON. A. ADAM: Yes, we are working on that, but we're doing it on a scheduled basis. We do a little bit every year.

I'm not sure just how the system works, but I think it works from a plant outside of here and it's a cooling system of some kind, I just don't know how it works. This is ongoing, we do a few every year. This building was never constructed to be air conditioned and it would be quite a costly operation to make the entire building air conditioned all at once, so we're doing it on a phase-In basis.

We have installed air conditioning in the House and you know how we rotate when people are speaking and when there's nobody in there, we put them both on and then when members come in, they're turned off or one is turned off. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the fact that it would be a tremendous undertaking to even totally air condition the building.

I think possibly for the time being the answer would be that we attempt to do government business in the winter months instead of in July and August. lt seems that it's just kind of rather ridiculous if we find ourselves sitting in here in the heat of summer when we've got winter months when it's 20-30 below, ar.1 it would certainly be more pleasurable to be sitting in here in the winter months rather than in the July and August as I stated earlier. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R.

NOADMAN: Just to go along on that, I just feel for the staff in both your caucus room and our caucus room in the middle of the summer with the heat that comes through those windows. I think maybe the east side doesn't get it quite as bad, but the west and the south side of this building, those offices are almost intolerable in the summer time. Regardless of what kind of fans you have, still all it is, is moving hot air. I know that the job would be a terribly, terribly expensive one to do all in one time.

I wouldn't in the restaurant business, I wouldn't submit my staff to the heat that some of the staff have to work in here in this building. lt's really not fair and expect them to do a creditable job. So I would hope that the department will look into it and maybe find some bucks somewhere along the line to make it tolerable. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(1)(1 )-pass; 2.(1)(2) -pass. Energy Management and Technical Services, Salaries, and Other Expenditures-pass.

Resolution 81: Resolved that their be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $45,35 8,400 for Government Services for Field Services for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1985-pass. 3.(a)( 1) Supply and Services, Executive Administration, Salaries; 3(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Honourable Member for Portage. MA. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. 3.(a)( 1) Executive Administration, Salaries-pass; 3.(a)(2), Other Expenditures-pass.

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 3.(bX1) Central Vehicle Branch, Salaries; 3.(bX2) Other Expenditures; 3.(bK3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Honourable Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would explain the difference of $4,072,200 on Recoverable from Appropriations. I wonder if he would make that explanation to me. HON. A. ADAM: That is as a result of the recovery of depreciation on the fleet. MR. L. HYDE: On the entire fleet. Thank you. HON. A. ADAM: That's the major portion of it. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, the question is has it always been handled this way?

HON. A. ADAM: lt was handled that way in years past, and it's being handled that way this year. There were a number of years that it wasn't handled this way. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, are you saying that it's just in your term of office, this government's term of office, that this system has been used? HON. A. ADAM: lt was used in years past. MR. L. HYDE: In years past? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, but it's now being used again. lt hadn't been used for a few years. I don't exactly how many years though. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(bK 1) - the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. A. NORDMAN: I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman, how many SYs do we have under Salaries here? HON. A. ADAM: There are 50.31 SYs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister inform me what expenditur es will be made regarding purchasing new vehicles, and how many vehicles, and will any or will all vehicles be of the compact models? · HON. A. ADAM: There will be approximately $4,300,000 of new vehicles. MR. L. HYDE: Purchased this year? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, the policy is to change over the vehicles every four years or 120,000 kilometres. MR. L. HYDE: That's a question I was going to bring up.

You do have a retirement policy that you're following? HON. A. ADAM: We haven't been able to follow it right up to date, I believe, but we are trying to stay as close to that as possible. 947 The other question, Mr. Chairman, was whether or not they are all compact. No they are not. Some of them are larger. The sedans that are purchased are mostly the compact, it would be all I guess. There are some cases where it is not possible to . . . I can perhaps give the member some information. The total number of sedans is 1,044; sub-compact is 2 percent; and compact is 94 percent.

So that would leave, there are 4 percent that would still be the standard size. You may be aware that even the Ministerial cars are down-sized as well. The new ones that are coming in are down-sized. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could indicate whether he's got figues to substantiate what I call, any great savings to the department or on compact cars versus the conventional larger car. HON. A. ADAM: I believe we do.

I don't know if I have that here. - (Interjection) - I have just been informed by the director for the central fleet that it's pretty difficult to make a comparison because our full-sized cars or automobiles are all old models. I don't believe there are any younger than 1981. There may be but -'81 and older so it's very difficult to make a comparison with those old clu nkers and the new compacts. We do know that as far as fuel savings is concerned it's quite substantial.

In my opening remarks I did mention, and I gave the honourable member a copy, 250,000 litres of saving because of the down-sizing of the cars which is very, very substantial. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I'm assuming that the life of a small compact car is shorter than our conventional heavier cars of the past and the newer ones today. I'm assuming that the life is shorter. Now, can the Minister indicate what savings, if any, would be there in buying a smaller car? HON. A. ADAM: There is a saving in capital when you purchase the vehicle, a very substantial saving to begin with.

There is a very substantial saving on fuel economy and because the policy Is that we try to turn over our vehicles every four years - either four years or 120, 000 kilometres - if we can live up to that policy, our cars are always in fairly good condition, they're well looked after. I do believe that the automotive industry has made a Jot of strides now. We don't use any imports. We buy all Canadian products to create jobs in Canada and in Manitoba, but I would say that the cars that are made today are fairly well built.

In areas where there's heavy usage, in the construction part of our operation, we use trucks and we use vans for that type of work. MR .. CHAIRMAN: For a break. I've been handed a note. 3 to 1 Edmonton, end of the first period. HON. A. ADAM: I'll drink to that - give me some water. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, first of all before I go onto the next question, it would appear that we're going

Thursday, 17 May, 198ol to have to wait until possibly a year from now, unless the government is turned over - and then we'll know for sure just what is the case. it would appear that we're going to have wait possibly for a year to find out whether there is any great savings in these small cars, both in the overall cost and the cost of maintenance, where it's a small car versus a big one. We'll probably have to wait a while to find this out. Mr. Chairman, my final question for this department right now is, just what number of cars are assigned to special assistance and advisory personnel within the government?

I'm sure you must have a figure for that, I would think. HON. A. ADAM: We would almost have to get an Order for Return for that, Mr. Chairman. I don't believe that there are any, but I would have to check· that out. I know from time to time, when Ministers send their assistants out, they may have a vehicle but . . . MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to . HON. A. ADAM: Just on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order. HON. A. ADAM: There is an Order for Return on the Order Paper now. MR. L. HYDE: For that? HON. A. ADAM: From the opposition. MR. L. HYDE: Okay, that's fine, thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3 . . . HON. A. ADAM: No, before we pass, I just wanted to say that one of the areas that the department is looking at is to have the cost of the vehicle all compu terized, and we will be able to know each individual vehicle and how it's performing. That is some of the systems that they're putting in place and we'll have a very close handle on that. MR. L. HYDE: Good. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b )

(1) Central Vehicle Branch: Salaries-pass; 3.(b)

(2) Central Vehicle Branch, Other Expenditures-pass; 3.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass; 3.(c)( 1) Office Equipment Branch: Salaries; 3.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(c)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass; 3.(c)(2)-pass; 3.(c)(3)- pass. 3.(d)

(1) Purchasing Bureau: Salaries; 3.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, is there a policy followed by this Minister in where his department purchases totally Manitoba products over the out-of-province products? Is he following that practice totally? HON. A. ADAM: No, Mr. Chairman. We have a policy to buy in Manitoba when it's feasible to do so, when it's in the benefit of the province to do so. 948 MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I believe it's been said so many times by the present government, they maintain, they buy and support the producers and manufacturers of the province, but I can possibly understand where there are commodities that certainly have to be purchased outside of the bounds of our province. I would hope that we will do everything possible to purchase a Manitoba product. HON. A. ADAM: Yes we are following that policy and whenever possible we will buy and give a preference to Manitoba producers over outside suppliers, given that there's not too much disparity as far as the price is concerned. MR. L HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister following the tendering policy when purchasing material for his departments? Is he following that policy? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assinibola. MR. R. NORDMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of items here on this tendering. The Deputy Minister is aware of one of them, insofar ac I am concerned I brought this problem to him some time back. it deals with basically the certificate of status, which seems to be a requirement in most instances in tendering. This one I'd like to go into it so it's on record.

This is with regard to a company by the name of Montgome!Y Elevator Company and they have Manitoba Corporation No. 51609, incorporated under the laws of Ontario on August 30, 1935. Now this company has been doing business with the Province of Manitoba for some years. They presently have several contracts with them. For instance, they are doing the renovation and upgrading of the elevators in the Fletcher building for one. They have been maintaining for the past five years the elevators in the Law Courts Building.

They recently completed the installation in the Assiniboine College in Brandon and are presently working on the Fletcher Building. They tendered on two jobs, one for Dauphin and one for Beausejour, and I guess in the tendering system this is a requirement, but they didn't include their certificate of status and they were turned down because of that. Their tender was thrown out because they didn't include that. Yet, I believe, a company that is doing business with the province, as a legitimate company, I just don't understand why they would have to do this every single time that they put in a tender.

All I'm asking is that if this is where it should be taken to, that some consideration be given to companies that are in good standing with the province and are doing business with the province, that because they didn't put in one little piece of paper like that, that their tender was thrown out.

In this instance, one of the tenders that they tendered on, they were nine percent lower than the company that got the tender, and 253 percent lower than the company that got the tender. lt just doesn't seem to make sense to me that they should have been tossed out in that manner. lt would make you wonder, are we more interested in a formal tender than we are in saving money for the province?

Thur•day, 17 May, 1984 HON. A. ADAM: I am informed that there are legal requirements that come from the Attorney-General's department. MR. R. NORDMAN: Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mention that, because this is what the Deputy Minister told me. HON. A. ADAM: I'm not sure of the legal implications of that, but, the tender did not include a certif icate that was required by tender and was not included, and therefore, even though they did come in with a lower tender, it was not considered because of the fact that that document was not included.

Now, I'm not sure if it was because, had they got the tender and it was later found that they did not have the certificate, and something would happen to the work, I'm not sure what the reason is, that maybe we would be liable for some damages if an accident happened. I don't want to speculate any further than that, but, that is the requirement that must be met, a certificate when the tender is sent in. That directive comes from the Attorney-General's department. I would imagine that there are some legal implications there. MR. R. NORDMAN: Then what is the purpose of the certificate of status?

What clout does it carry? Can you tell me that, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. ADAM: I know that all elevators have to be certified to be safe and they've got to be passed by the Department of Labour, and I would imagine that anyone who works or installs an elevator has to have a certificate to install it. MR. R.

NORDMAN: I can understand if the "XYZ Company" that have just come into Manitoba and were tendering on a job for the very first time, but, a company that has been doing business with the Province of Manitoba, whoever opens those tenders has to know that this is a reputable compan y, because, he just gave them a contract not more than a month prior to that for $350,000.00 Surely to goodness that must mean something. lt doesn't leave any flexibility at all. A piece of paper like this.

They knew after they made the tender, and they phoned the tendering office and stated that they'd forgotten it and that didn't matter. "Sorry, you're too late. We can't accept the certificate of status after the tenders are closed." That's my tale of woe. HON. A.

ADAM: I acc ept the honourable member's comments and I could perhaps find out what the legal implications are, but, off-hand I would say if we got a tender in and the certificate was not included, our staff would have no way of knowing whether or not that certificate had been taken away from these people even though they might have been there for a number of years. We wouldn't have it because the certificate comes from another department. We don't provide these people with their certificates. lt has to come from a different area. That is a problem that we have. MR. R.

NORDMAN: lt's just another bit of red tape that a person has to go through to do business in the province. 949 HON. A. ADAM: I would say that I'm not sure what takes place in other jurisdictions, but, that is what is happening here and we can perhaps undertake to review what happens in other provinces. lt might be MR. R. NORDMAN: That's ali i' m asking, Mr. Chairman, is to take it under advisement and find if there isn't some better way of handling this than what it probably is right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: I hope the member's question does not seek a legal opinion, because . . . MR. R.

NORDMAN: No, I'm not seeking a legal opinion on it, Mr. Chairman. I'm asking the Minister to take it under advisement and see if there is some manner in which these tenders can be handled without all this red tape. HON. A. ADAM: We shall so do. MR. R. NORDMAN: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRM AN: 3. (d)

(1) Purchasing Bureau: Salaries- pass. 3.(dX2) Other Expenditures- pass. 3.(eX1) Materials Branch: Salaries, 3.(eX2) Other Expenditures, 3.(e)

(3) Acquisition - Materials Inventory, 3(eX4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 32 percent increase, as I see it, on Other Expenditures, I'm wondering If I can get an explanation on that? HON. A. ADAM: lt's a decrease, not an increase. A MEMBER: No, on Other Expenditures. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 3. HON. A. ADAM: Oh, you mean the $21,000.00. MR. L. HYDE: Yes, the $2 1,000.00. HON. A. ADAM: Again, it's entirely on the depreciation of motor vehicles. The cost on the vehicles on every department. MR. L. HYDE: . . . within department. HON. A.

ADAM: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Mr. Chairman, these materials that you're buying, are these materials for - just give me an example of what you would be - what would be in the Materials Inventory, for instance? Just a couple, don't go through the whole list, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRM AN: Give an example. MR. R. NORDMAN: . . . just to give us some kind of an idea of what's In there.

Thursd•y, 17 May, 198t HON. A. ADAM: How about furniture? MR. R. NORDMAN: Okay, fine. That's materials. HON. A. ADAM: Just a moment. MR. R. NORDMAN: Yet we had a furniture and . HON. A. ADAM: The member wanted to know what we were purchasing, what it meant. lt could be shovels, wouldn't it? Whatever any department requires. If the Department of Hig hways requests asphalt or cement, if another department requires furniture replacement, I guess that's what it is, isn't it? Janitorial supplies, Mr. Chairman, and the whole purchasing for the government use. that's what it is. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) -the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, there is a - what? -13.4 percent increase in Recoverable from Appropriations. Can we get an explanation on that? A MEMBER: Which one was that? MR. L. HYDE: On (4), (e)(4). HON. A. ADAM: That's recoverable from if we buy - Mr. Chairman, we purchase the material, and it's sold to other departments. That is where the recovery is; it's just a book figure. lt's transferred over, and it is just a figure that's rolled over, that's all it is. MR. R. NORDMAN: The internal bookkeeping? HON. A. ADAM: That's right, there is no money changing hands. MR. R.

NORDMAN: No, just internal bookkeeping. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(1)- pass; Materials Branch: Salaries- pass; 3.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 3.(e)

(3) Acquisition -Materials Inventory-pass; 3.(e)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. 3.(f)

(1) Telecommunications Branch: Salaries; 3.(f)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(f)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations -the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to bring attention to this here -pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: We pass all the items. 3.(f)(1)-pass, Salaries; 3.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 3.(f)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass. 3.(g)

(1) Post Office Branch: Salaries; 3.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3. (g)

(3) Postage; 3.(g)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations -the Member for Portage. MR. L HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I could ask for an explanation. lt's all plus. I would just like to have a record of where these increases are taking place. HON. A. ADAM: The increase on the Salaries is for the merit and general salary increases of $4,300, offset by the one week pay period less. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: I was just wondering, Mr.

Chairman, is this where we have an interchange of mail between, say for instance, the Manitoba Telephone System and the office here - how would you call it - interdepartmental mail? Just one curiosity then, Manitoba Hydro is a provincial body. I know I dropped my Manitoba Hydro bill and my telephone bill into the basket in the Caucus Room, and I was told that they would accept Winnipeg Hydro, but they don't accept Manitoba Hydro for delivery on the interoffice exchange - (Interjection) - No, they gave it back to me. My hydro comes from the Manitoba Hydro. HON. S. USKIW: You've got to be a Minister. See, I do it.

MR. R. NORDMAN: You do it, and get away with it. SOME HONOUR ABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. NORDMAN: lt's a minor thing, but it just seemed odd to me that they would accept Winnipeg Hydro. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an explanation the Minister wants to make. MR. R. NORDMAN: Ah! HON. A. ADAM: . The Winnipeg Hydro have their own pickup, and they come and pick it up themselves. They have a delivery that comes and picks up the Winnipeg Hydro in the building. They're anxious to . . . 950 MR. R. NORDMAN: And Manitoba Hydro doesn't? HON. A. ADAM: And Manitoba Hydro does not have that service. MR. R.

NORDMAN: That's a real odd one. How is the Manitoba Telephone System handled then? HON. A. ADAM: We don't provide postage for them. MR. R. NORDMAN: No, you deliver it, hand deliver it. HON. A. ADAM: I am informed that we do have a pickup that goes by the MTS office, and we drop off the mail at the same time from the building. If you drop your letter in your Caucus Room for MTS, it will go without postage because we'll deliver it down there. They have a truck that goes down there. MR. R. NORDMAN: Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)

(1) Salaries-pass; 3.(g)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 3.(g)

(3) Postage-pass; 3.(g)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass. Resolution 82: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,550,800 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985- pass.

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 4.(a)

(1) Project Services, Executive Admin istration: Salaries, 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 4.(a)(2)­ pass. 4.(b)

(1) Design Services: Salaries, 4.( b)

(2) Other Expenditures, 4.(b)

(1) Salaries-pass; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. 4.(c)

(1) Project Mana gement - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, just a moment, please. No, pass. You're on (c)? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm beginning to call (c). MR. L. HYDE: All right, pass, go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)

(1) Project Ma nagement: Salaries-pass; 4.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass. 4.(d)

(1) Land Acquisition Branch: Salaries; 4(d)

(2) Other Expenditures; 4.(d)

(3) Less: Recovera ble from Other Appropriations - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, yes, Land Acquisition Branch, the Other Expenditures, I see it's up 22 percent approximately. Can you explain that to me Mr. Mini ster? There's a difference there of $20,100.00. HON. A. ADAM: it's again the vehicle of deprec iation. MR. L. HYDE: lt is, okay. Can I go ahead to (3) and sort of discuss that one at the same time with this Min ister, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. L. HYDE: There's quite a difference there of 390 percent increase there, $486,700 recovera ble from Other Appropriations. HON. A.

ADAM: Is this on the recoveries? MR. L. HYDE: Yes, it is. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, there is less recove rables. lt has less field activity that the Land Branch Acquisition is MR. L. HYDE: Would you explain that more. HON. A. ADAM: There's less activities for other departments and that's where they do their work, is for in-house and there's less ac tivities. They do work for the Water Control and they do work for Land Acquisition or Water Services, and so on, and all our departments, and there's less activities antic ipated this year. MR. L. HYDE: Could the Mini ster explain that increase? I accept that all right.

I just got to get caught up here, just a moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: The number of SYs seems to be fairly top heavy with salaries. How big a staff are we looking at here? 951 HON. A. ADAM: In Land Acquisition there's 37.26. lt shows four of a reduction there, but there's actually only three. There's only three really and there's one vacant, one retired and one redeployed. MR. R. NORDMAN: Fine, thank you, Sir . At the end of the second period, Mr. Chairman, it's 5 to 1 for Edmonton. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 4.(d)(1) - the Member for Portage. MR. L.

HYDE: I had something here and I've lost my piece of paper. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)( 1)- pass; 4.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 4.(d)

(3) Less: Recov erable from Other Appropriations- pass. Resolution 83: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,868,000 for Government Services, Project Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1985-p ass. 5.(

a) Land Value Appraisal Commission, Salaries; 5.(

b) Other Expenditures; 5.(

c) Less: Recovera ble from Other Appropriations; 5.(a)- pass; S(

b) Other Expenditures; 5.(

c) Less: Recovera ble- pass. Resolution 84: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $62,000 for Government Services, Land Value Appraisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1985- pass. 6.(

a) Emergency Measures Organization, Salaries - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, the previous Mini ster, Mr. Plohman, stated or listed several areas which he felt would come under the EMO organizations. He mentioned a flood, then there's fire, chemical spills, etc., and when questioned by Mr. Orchard - that's the Member for Pembina - he agreed that ice storms could certainly be considered an emergency. My question to the Min ister is, does this Minister today consider ice storms an emergency?

There seemed to be some doubt in his mind at one time whether this would be the case and I would like to hear the Min ister's opinion on that. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , any major occurrence or major disaster would come under our Emergency Measures polic y. I believe the mem ber is asking about the recent storm that we had and it is a bit different than what we've been used to in the past. We've always been experiencing floods and fires and that kind of a disaster. We haven't had too many snowstorms and sleet storms as we've had at the end of April.

Up until the beginning of last week, we had very little information as to the extent of the damages and until you can tabulate on any kind of disaster just what you're dealing with, you can't really make a decision whether it is a major disaster or whether it's just a severe storm. We did know that hydro experienced a lot of damage on their transmission lines, that we were aware of. We had some difficulty in getting information from the municipalities. That was slow coming in. They had to assess what had happened to their communities. We

Thuradar, 17 llaJ, 1984 have received very very few inquiries insofar as private individual damages are concerned. We have received now a numb er of requests for assistance from municipali ties and towns, and I think in answer to a question in the House the other day, I believe up to this point in time it's approximately $300,000 that we have received from individual municipalities. Since the storm is unique, it's not the kind of disaster that we've been experiencing in the past. We have had ice storms in the past but not to this severity.

So what we are doing now is setting up the guidelines to deal with this kind of a storm. When you deal with a flood, you're dealing with inundation of houses, you're dealing with inunda tion of businesses, inven tory, grain in the bins. That did not occur this time as far as we can determine to this point in time. it's a different kind of a situation. We had a considerable amount of tree damage, clean­ up expenses to cleaning up in the towns. So we're setting up the criteria.

We do believe that it amounts to a disaster system storm, and we're setting out the . guidelines, and we will be making rec ommendations based on the information that's coming forward. We know there will be more information coming. We hear of maybe some livestock that were lost. We have to gather that information. We have nothing officially. We understand that in the Portage area there were some sheep that were lost. A farmer there apparently sheared some sheep and they caught in this cold weather, and I guess they perished because of the exposure to the cold.

That is being looked into by the Department of Agriculture. We're trying to assemble all that information and we will be making recommendations to Cabinet for their considera tion. Members may reca ll that just a few months ago we have developed an emergency plan for Manitoba that 1 spoke about in my opening remarks. Every muni cipal ity, and every town, has received this new emergency plan. lt delineates the levels of responsibility to each level of government. Muni cipalities should be all aware of how the emergency plan works in the Province of Manitoba.

Now the individua ls, we also, as we did in the past, invite everyone that had damages to forward them in. I've received , as I just mentioned, a few applic ations from municipalities, from individuals so far. I believe this morning I spoke to the Secretary of the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, and I think they had only received one phone call from an individual who was inquiring as to whether or not there would be some assistance. Now there may be some ind ividuals that had to procure generators because of Hydro failure. We don't know whether there will be any other damages related to that.

There could be, so we are waiting to see what damages are coming forward because it's different type of a storm. Once we can get all this information I'll be making a rec ommendation to Cabinet. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I have an

article here in the Free Press, Tuesday, May 8th, headlin es, "Adam Refuses Guarantee Of Storm Relief Payments. The Government Services Min ister Pete Adam refused again yesterday to give any commitment that municipalities, which received heavy damage in the April 27th spring ice storm, will receive government help." Has he changed his mind on that? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, before any assistance can be given a disaster area has to be declared. I'm sure honourable mem bers know that, and I'm sure the Member for Arthur would know because he was a former Minister of the Cabinet.

Before you can provide any assistance, you have to have an area declared a disaster area. In order to have any federal assistance as well, of course, it has to be over $1 million damage in the province, at least $1 per capita, then you can tap into federal assistance. Of course, that

article that was read there, at the time the questions were asked, at that time there were no declarations of disaster, a disaster had not been declared, at that time we had no informantion as to the extent of the damage except for Hydro. That is why I could not make a commitment at that time. Until Cabine t approves that there is a disaster area, we can't make that commitment until that is appr oved by Cabinet. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'll yield to my colleague, the Member for Arthur. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. 952 MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Mi nister of Government Services makes reference to me as being a former Cabinet Mini ster and whether one can rec ognize a disaster. Mr. Chairman, I would, first of all, like to put on the record that the biggest disaster is this Min ister and his government, and the way in which they handle the affairs of the province, particularly when it comes to two ice storms in two years, and he says that it hasn't been the kind of occurence that's happened very often; two storms back to back.

Last year members of the opposition grueled the government about the in action that was being taken when there was a disaster happening. People lost the heat to their homes. People were without the kind of hospital services that they needed again this year, and what was done about it?. The Minister comes to the comm ittee, he comes to the House, and says we have to figure out whether there's a di saster. Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster should know that there was a disaster the day that it was taking place.

The public were going through a very distressed difficult time trying to provide, as we heard from the Carmen area, electricity to the hospital. We know of a lot of homes, we know of a lot of people that were in very serious situations. The biggest disaster is this Min ister and way in which he's handling the affairs of his department. I don't think we can afford to continue to have the kind of set up for the people of Manitoba as is being provided by this Min ister.

I'll go back and make some examples for the Mini ster to take a look at, and that was the situation handled during the period of flooding under our term of office, the situation under the forest fire conditions where we had to evacuate people and move rapidly.

Thuraday , 17 May , 1984 We had a drought situation where we had to move in with emergency feed programs. Mr. Chairman, and they were all handled very capably. We didn't have to see the loss or the kind of concerns that Manitobans are put through under his inaction and administration. So I have got some experience and I want to make it clear on the record. Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he wouldn't please, for the people of Manitoba, because he's asking for their money to spend, take a look at the way some emergencies are handled in the United States, the Northern United States, North Dakota, and some of the neighboring provinces as to how they act and respond to the kind of emergencies that we can expect and have seen; whether it's the taking stock, or the provision of Hydro electric plants, emergency plants, at least have an inventory of where they're available, and the availability of them for the communities.

Make sure that there is adequate and a proper electrical power for the emergency units of hospitals and care homes where elderly people could, in fact, be in dire straits before they had any response or any coverage by this government, disasters could set in in individual cases. I know there's certainly been a lot of criticism come from the community and the editor of one of the local newspaper in the Carman area, and I think he's justified in giving the kind of criticism he is.

Yet, we can't get the Minister to even come forward and say yes, there is a policy, yes, there is a mechanism where a heavy ice storm or a rain storm moves in that there is a phone number, that the municipalities are responsible for setting up emergency food and shelter in community halls or certain locations that if you have to make a phone call to get feed for livestock or some particular health or ambulance coverage, you phone a particular Emergency Measures number. None of that, Mr. Chairman, is available to the people of Manitoba, and we're paying tax dollars to get it.

I would think, how many more times do we have to go through the kind of situation that we've faced in this province until we get some kind of longer-term planning by this Department of Emergency Measures. it's beginning to, I think, be an embarrassment, or should be an embarrassment to all involved. We're now faced tonight, of course, with another very serious situation with the forest fires outbreak and the evacuations of some communities, news bulletins all over. I would hope the Minister is at least getting some updated reports on what's happening.

Again, I know he's involved in the House matters, but would hope' that staff are keeping him informed - hopefully he's a committee member of the Cabinet - to take the kind of action that's nec essary. We're faced again this year, of course, with reduced rain falls, possible drought conditions. I don't know whether the Minister is paying attention to it or whether he has to wait until we're completely out of all resources for the people of Manitoba before he waits to hear whether there's a disaster hit or not.

I think he's begging off with a pretty feeble response to the fact that we have seen, over the last two weeks, him make statements. First he didn't know whether he was going to have a disaster on his hands, then he had to try to quantify what the disaster was and then whether or not there'd be assistance. The communities out there want to know. 1 talked to his Minister of Municipal Affairs a week ago and asked him if he'd contacted the municipalities and informed them that was the communication line that the people of the province were supposed to contact if they had a loss and put a claim forward.

Why won't he make a public statement as to the kind of process that is in place for them to make application, and if they don't qualify for government support, then say so at that point, but, at least, give them the opportunity to have that kind of services provided or a channel for them to go through. it's a nebulous thing that he's operating here, and, I think, it's a matter of putting the department alertness and a mechanism in place so that it can act immediately when a disaster hits, so that it can help people through that period and to clean up afterwards is essential.

I think it's incumbent upon this Minister before we pass this Emergency Measures Organization that he commits to this committee that he is going to do a task force, put in a place a group of people that are going to come back with recommendations as to how better we can handle disaster situations in the province. I don't care whether it's ice storms, whether it's forest fires or anything else, a co-ordinated effort to protect the life and limb of people who pay the taxes who should get the services that they need. I don't think it would take a lot of money, Mr.

Chairman, I don't think we're asking for a lot more money. I think he could better organize the whole set­ up and be able to respond when times certainly require the emergency actions. lt really bothers me when I hear reports come from communities when they say well, there were two generators brought out, but they're gone out to a particular person in need, but for some regulatory reason or some reason unknown to the public at large, they're asked to bring them back.

If they're asked to bring them back, surely they could have a recommendation go to them as to where they could get either a coal-oil heater or an alternative type generator. Maybe there should be a pool of tractor­ operated generators assembled th roughout the province. Maybe there should be an assistance program or a loan program, interest-free or something, to encourage some of these people to put in place emergency generators onto their farms. Maybe the Manitoba Hydro would want to encourage that kind of an alternative system.

I think it's incumbent upon the Minister and the government to take action and put in place the kind of mechanisms that are needed. 953 I will not give up requesting this until I see the Minister commit to or tell us that there are going to be changes made within this particular expenditur e of th e government to tell the people of Manitoba that if a disaster does hit, they can actually be told where they can get emergency food and shelter, that there is a mechanism in place that will accommodate their immediate demands.

I do it in all sincerity, because I know of hospitals, it's publicly stated that there are hospitals that aren't equipped to handle emergency situations. In a day and age like this, Mr. Chairman, I think we should be able to accommodate that kind of need. HON. A. ADAM: I thank the honourable member for his comments.

Thur8day, 17 May, 1184 The response to the request for assistance because of the storm was very, very good. There was immediate response from Emergency Measures. They have a 24- hour telephone, there's someone to answer that phone on a 24-hour basis. There was good response to the first request that we received, from the Town of Carman. There was immediate response to provide information as to where generators were available for the Town of Carman. There as a request, I believe, for one generator for the pumping station and that information was relayed to the Town of Carman and that request came Friday evening.

My understanding is that a generator was delivered at 9:30 a.m. the following morning, and it was installed. The policy in the past by this government and previous governments has been to depend on the private sector, people who are in the business, and that have this material and this equipment on hand to be available to farmers or towns that require generators. There was no further request from the Town of Carman until April 28th. There was another request from the mayor for another large generator and for some heating and lighting equipment for the community hall which was being used to congregate feeding.

Again, EMO identified the source for a second generator which was the Keewatin Electric and put them in direct contact with the Mayor to arrange for delivery and installation. lt is my understanding that this was delivered by 4:00 p.m. as well. EMO obtained heaters and lighting equipment from the government sources and then delivered them to Carman by 4:00 p.m. As the member's aware, EMO provides a role of co­ ordinating communicating where this equipment can be found, and to advise where it can be found. Also EMO was involved with stranded passengers on the highways.

We called in the Armed Forces to come in and pick up people throughout the area. The Army did respond. We had a number of volunteer groups and agencies that have assisted at Portage la Prairie, Neepawa, Brandon, and In other areas. The response from the Emergency Measures Organization, in my opinion, was adequate. We must remember that quite a number of farmers do have supplementary generators for their farms.

I'm not sure what the member was requesting. lt seems to me that he was suggesting that the Emergency Measures Organization should be getting involved in stocking equipment of all kinds, pumps, and generators. I'm not sure what the member was suggesting. In my opinion we have depended on the private sector and I think they have done a good job. The equipment has been available. Even if we have to go to the United States to get it, or even Ontario, we would never be able to have on hand all the kinds of equipments to meet any emergency.

I would say you're looking at $100 million to have sufficient equipment on hand to provide for all this emergen cy. The role of the Emergency Measures Organization has not been to have generators and have electricians to go on hookups and all this that we're relied on the private sector. lt's interesting to note that the nursing home in Carman was able to obtain a generator on their own without going to Emergency Measures. They simply lifted the phone and called a Keewatin Electric and there was a generator out there in no time.

We have 954 responded to other requests and I'm disappointed really that the member Is criticizing the operation of EMO because they did a very very good job in my opinion. MR. J. DOWNEV: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to come back to the Minister because he has got his priorities all screwed up. He's now depending on the private service, the private sector, to look after Emergency Measures, and yet when it comes to security of the building he feels the government has to employ the people.

I would hope that, as I've requested, and it was a sincere request, that he have his department, or another department, or a committee of people from the different departments to look at other Emergency Measures Organizations in other jurisdictions to see if we couldn't spend the money better. If he's totally going to depend on the Emergency Measures then why Is he asking for $589,000.00? Let us take that money and use it to the most effective way possible.

Let us co-ordinate, let the people who are in an emergency situation, and I know that you can't be on top of every area, but it's a pretty poor excuse when the Minister says we have to wait and see if there's an emergency. I believe when these situations develop, Mr. Chairman, and examples have been set in the :orest fire times of our administration, the co-ordinated efforts that took place, the periods of flood where we had difficulties with livestock and people's lives, there was a co­ ordinated effort, and Emergency Measures played a major role. They had a central location set up In a particular spot.

Everything was co-ordinated out of that particular area. When it came to the dealing with municipalities and emergency programs during the drought years there was a presence of the government addressing directly In a very short order the kinds of things that were expected of those municipalities. But to my knowledge, and the Minister can prove me wrong, and tell me I am wrong, that up until last week he hadn't even contacted the Minister of Municipal Affairs to tell the municipalities that they were the contact for losses because of the storms.

I want the Minister to tell me that we're voting here, $589,200 under Emergency Measures, that he is going to at least have his senior staff come back with programs, with Emergency Measures operations that are put in place, whether it's in North Dakota, whether it's in Saskatchewan, Ontario, wherever else he may have to go to find out what kinds of programs that are put In place to move in and co-ordinate the resources. I didn't say that I would expect him to buy all the equipment and backups that are needed.

But I said his department could possibly look at encouraging of buying of the kind of alternative generators that farmers could purchase or towns could purchase. lt wouldn't be impossible to encourage them to do it through a tax incentive or through a government program. lt wouldn't cost the government a lot of money. What I'm saying is there are alternative options that I would hope this Minister would look at. If he is leaving this committee tonight, Mr.

Chairman, saying he is satisfied that people in Manitoba are protected under the way in which the last two major storms that hit the province have happened, and he's satisfied with that then it's not acceptable. lt's not

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 acceptable to the comments that I have heard coming from a lot of Manitobans, and certainly the private sector, and everyone's going to move to look after themselves and I don't think they expect the government to move in and do everything. But the government is expected to co-ordinate at times of emergency. Well, the Minister says that's what they're doing. That is not correct. I can get him numbers of statements made by respo nsible people, mayors, reeves, councillors, newspaper people who say very different.

People who were out faced with the kinds of problems that I have tried to demonstrate here tonight. He sits here saying, in this House, that he's still trying to determine as to whether there was an emergency situation or a disaster. When you have 3,000 Hydro poles smashed to the ground with electric wires, and that type of thing, several steel towers crashed to the ground, and he's still trying to figure out whether there's an emergenc y, you know, where are we at, Mr. Chairman, with this Minister?

I would ask him, I would plead with him to come back in his next statement and say we believe that we could take a look at our Emer genc y Measures Organization. We should look at other jurisdictions and possibly WP could improve on the kinds of services that the people would expect during an emergency situation. If he would come back with that statement I would be satisfied, Mr. Chairman.

I would think the people of Manitoba who are affected would be satisfied that he is at least prepared to say that he's not going to cover his head and say everything is fine, thank you very much, we've done the best job that is possible of doing and leave it at that. Will he take a look at other operations and Emergency Measures Programs and other jurisdictions so that there is a possibility of implementing a better system here in Manitoba? HON. A. ADAM: First of all, I want to respond while I still remember the comments that the honourable member made.

First of all, he indicated that we should be getting our other departments together to see if we can come up with a better plan for emergency in the Province of Manitoba. I want to, of course, advise him, he probably knows that we already have an Interdepartmental Planning Committee, of all the departments, we have that. We have a lot of volunteer people involved as well. Mr. Chairman, he talks about meeting with other jurisdictions to see if we can't improve. Well, of course; we always want to improve and we are improving as we go along. We have made great strides in the last couple of years.

A MEMBER: Tell us about them. HON. A. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member was here or not, if he'll look this way he'll see this emergency planning for the Province of Manitoba . . . - (Interjection) - that . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The member had his chance, let the Minister explain. HON. A. ADAM: . . . was sent out to every municipality in the last while, delineating each level of government's 955 responsibility, the municipality, the province and the Federal Government. All municipalities are aware of how they tap into the system. Mr.

Chairman, in addition to that, the EMO is meeting constantly with the federal people, Emergency Measures Organization at the federal level. There are also communications going on with other provinces. They are in contact with other jurisdictions. In the last year we have now a total of 77 emergency plans developed at the municipal level at the present time. There are 77 municipalities that have emergency plans in place. Everybody knows what they're supposed to do at the moment that there's a major occurrence, a disaster of any kind. Everybody knows in those areas that they have their plans in place.

We have another 41 in process. We have another 41 mu nicipalities in the process of implementing emergency plans for their jurisdiction and in many cases it's more than one municipality - it may be a town and the surrounding municipality. We also have another 26 that have indicated interest. We have also one Indian reserve that has an emergency plan in place and we also have, I believe some - do we have a Northern one too?

There are a number of Northern Affairs Community Councils that also have emergency plans, so there has been a great progress in my opinion to have the entire province all with emergency plans ready to meet any emergency. Now, the first response is the municipality and when the local municipality feels it's unable to handle the emergency by themselves, they can either call on their neighbouring municipality and, if that isn't sufficient, then they call on their province and the province can call on neighbouring provinces or neighbouring states to the south if it's a major occurrence.

I think we have made a lot of progress over the last two years in emergency measures. We are now trying to come up with another policy on the financial assistance side which is not completed yet, but EMO has certainly done a lot of work in that area. They have done a lot of training and they're continuing to do training. Sure, we will be looking, as the members suggests, at the United States. I'm almost positive that we have had correspondence with them from time to time on how they deal with their situations.

We know that the storms in the United States, the major storms there, are almost on a continual basis and if it's not a major snowstorm, it's a cyclone. Probably the climate there is more subject to the kind of storms that I hope we don't see here. In fact, the storm that we did have was one that came in from Colorado. That's where that storm originated, and it came right up in a northeast direction and came right over Morden, Carman and Gimli and went right straight up north and that's where it went.

But we will certainly do all we can to improve the system, as we have in the past, and if we can improve as much in the next couple of years as we have improved in the last two years we will be making a lot of progress in my opinion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister of Business Development. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just didn't want to let some of those comments, on the part of the

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 Member for Arthur, go unanswered because the very mechanism that is in place, which he is so severely criticizing, is a mechanism that was Indeed put there some years ago by - I'm not even sure which government - but their government had a role to play when they were in office between 1977 and 1981. I would like to indicate to the Member for Arthur that nothing has diminished from the program that was there. In fact the EMO measures, If anything, have been enriched each year as they develop their experience with their program.

I think that one has to remind oneself that years ago, when we talked about the role of EMO, it was concluded and I don't believe there was any challenge to that policy, from any quarter, that EMO's role indeed should not be one of setting up massive amounts of supplies and personnel that would be on stand-by for any eventuality, but rather that EMO's role would be a communicative role and a co-ordinating role, which would mobilize everything that is out there, private and public and neighbouring, Including the military, which would be drawn upon if it were deemed . necessary.

There is now a system in place that is well understood, much more understood than ever before, on the part of the municipalities and local governments, the hospitals, the various health institutions - they all know their point of contact should they have an emergency. lt is a highly sophisticated effort in co-ordination that takes place and the fact that we had an average winter storm. with the exception that we had a lot more moisture in this last one, was not an usual occurrence what happened a couple of weeks ago. MR. J. DOWNEY: All of 3,000 hydro poles knocked down and all those towers - come on, Sam. HON. S.

USKIW: No, but it is not an usual occurrence in terms of the kind of storms that this country receives from time to time. The people of Manitoba are indeed accustomed to our winters and the y kno w the extremities that they may have to put up with and are very able to handle themselves in those kinds of emergencies, by and large. What is revealing is that there was no loss of life . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank God. HON. S. USKIW: No, not really. I think because people are human: people are able to cope. This kind of thing doesn't surprise them in our climate, and they make the best of it when it does occur.

Sometimes you have to accept the reality that, no matter what you have in place, there are moments and perhaps hours if you like where everything is practically demobilized because it isn't possible to do anything sometimes. You have to wait for events to take their course. Transportation bottlenecks occur. The impassibility of highways occur very frequently, and you may have to resort to other forms of traffic movement if indeed there was an emergency which the highway system could not respond to, or through the ambulance system or the fire department or whatever.

That's when you call upon the heavier resources of either the Province or the Government of Canada through the milit ary and so on. 956 I think EMO has done a very creditable job for the small group of people that they have and the small budget they have. Now that doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't want to ever improve it beyond where it is, because there are always new mechanisms that are invented that are perhaps more efficient or more instantaneous in how they're applied that should always be looked at.

But to talk about an emergency emanating from a snow storm is not the same as talking !ibout a fire emergency, is not quite the same as talking about a flood emergency for which the system has been equipped to deal quite differently with, because other things are brought into play. The evacuation of people is a very Important

part if you have a flooding situation or a fire situation. lt doesn't usually take place when you have a snow storm, although in this instance it was tied in with a Hydro blackout. That, of course, created some additional problems which a normal snow storm does not create. Therefore, there may have been need for movement of people into other accommodations and things of that nature. But the fact that we came through as well as we did indicates that something must have been in place properly and, yes, thera is always room for more improvement.

But to say that there wcs some negligence there when, in fact, we are more prepared and were able to demonstrate that than we ever were prepared before and even during the years of my friend 's government across the way, nothing has diminished. We have not reduced the role of EMO. We have, jn fact, enriched it with the organizational effort that has been put together. So if the member is reflecting on it, he is reflecting on his own creation, because I don't think the rules have changed. Perhaps he is not reflecting on his own creation as much as he wants to create an issue where none exists.

That's really where it comes down to, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland signifies intention to speak. He has not had a chance yet. I don't know if he would yield to the Member for Arthur. HON. S. USKIW: I think what's at issue, Mr. Chairman, and has not been put on the table properly Is whether or not the government is in a position to announce certain forms of compensation or relief packages for people that have sustained some damage to Income or whatever. That's the area that is yet to be finalized on the basis of the intelligence that is being gathered on the amount of damage and so on.

In due course, that will be announced. But I think it's fair to say that the standard package that we have always had in place that you simply pull out of the drawer and say, this is what we do by way of compensation, doesn't apply in this case, because that standard file consists of measures relating to fires and floods more than to snow storms. You know, the question of feeding livestock or the question of feeding people or whatever doesn't arise in the same manner in this kind of a situation. The farmers have their feed, and so they may have the inconvenience of having to work under bad conditions.

But if they lose animals, yes I think that has to be looked at. If a greenhouse operator loses his production

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 because of a Hydro failure, that has to be addressed. No one's arguing against that. So I think it is a matter of being able to assess the totality of the damage, and to be able to respond in a way that is meaningful to those people that have suffered the damages that are inde ed im portant to consider . But to simply say, everybody can come in and put in a claim without knowing just what the nature of the claim should be or on the old formula doesn't make any sense. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland has signified his intention first, and he hasn't spoken yet. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I'll let the Member for Arthur complete his questioning, and then I'll follow him. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think the Mini ster of Tourism and whatever else goes along with it should reflect on what he has just said, because I don't think in the history of the Province of Manitoba we've had such a massive ice storm where it blacked out such a large area of our one major power source with some 3,000 Hydro poles and a major outage of towers.

To say that it's just a normal winter storm, I think, he is off base to the point at which it almost was an irresponsible statement. I am surprised that a member of his experience would come forward with such a statement where it's not coming from the opposition party but from members of the communities affected, Carman, for example. They couldn't even get ahold of the Emergency Measures people, there wasn't the proper kind of Hydro or power backup for the hospitals in those communities. lt is a matter of looking after the lives of people. That's the point we are trying to make.

I am not reflecting upon the structur e or the organization that has been traditionally, and one which I said earlier in my remarks, worked very well if it's properly co-ordinated by the government who are operating it. What I am criticizing is this particular Min ister, his la ck of unders tandin g and the govern ment 's lack of under standing of what was happening. lt happened a year ago during the ice and snow storm, and it happened this year. The Minister stands up in the House and says, we have to determiQe as to whether there was almost a storm.

Well, there was a storm. lt was a major storm, and it caused a lot of people a lot of problems. In comparison, Mr. Chairman, living in the southern part of the province, hearing the State of North Dakota radio stations announcing that the Emergency Measures group of the North Dakota State were providing food and shelter and accommodation in a specific place, if you needed support through the government services or some type of emergency equipment that you could contact and it was co-ord inated such a number or an office. But no, Mr.

Chairman, there was none of that announced by the Emergency Measures Organization. A year ago, after they realized the outage of Hydro and the possibility of people running into downed Hydro lines, there were announcements made by the Hydro 957 that, in fact, it was dangerous to go near that kind of system, not to play around with it. But none of that was co-ordinated by this government, Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: The government doesn't do it. EMO is automatic. MR. J. DOWNEY: lt's a co-ordination effort. The Mini ster of Tourism Indicated it was a matter of co­ ordination.

Yes, it was a matter of co-ordination when the flood was on. The Emergency Measures set up in the barracks at Osborne, and that was the co-ordination centre. lt was handled in a very proper manner, because the direction came from the government to do so. An emergency group of the Cabinet were involved in the ongoing protection of lives when the forest fire was at its highest. This Mini ster didn't even take the time to do an inv estigation personally of what was happ ening throughout southern Manitoba. He didn't leave the City of Winnipeg. He went back to his constituen cy.

He didn't take the time to do a personal investigation last year or this year. I say, Mr. Chairman, that's not good enough. We are asking people to spend money on his department in Emergency Measures. Let's get value for that money from that department. I think, Mr. Chairman, that a major look at the way in which these last two situations have been handled has to be done. If they can't improve upon it, then tell the people in rural Manitoba who are critics of it, on the compensation part of it.

I again, go back to the Min ister and say, will he please tell the municipalities or the people who are possibly entitled to a form of compensation how they go about the procedural way of getting it. If it is to apply to the municipality and the municipality in turn apply to the government, then make a statement on it. Let us hear from him, not to say, we're waiting to have the people come forward and tell us what their losses are so we can determine what we're going to pay out. Is he limited with money? Is that it? Well, say then that there isn't money available and you're not going to do it.

But make a statement on it. That's what we're asking. Clarify the policy, because , it certainly is, I think, incumbent upon - the Mini ster was asking for a half a million dollars to answer those questions. With all respect for the Mini ster who just spoke, I think he would want to, as I say, reconsider what he said about the fact that it was a normal winter storm in Manitoba. I think it was an extraordinary storm. lt put a lot of peoples' lives in some jeopardy, and I don't believe, Mr. Chairman, that he has acted at all on his assessment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. During that storm my home was one of the homes that was out of power for 30 hours. This was in the Town of Winkler. We were without power over there for about approximately 30 hours. In the surrounding area, there were many, many farmsteads, and so on, that were without power for five and six days. This of course was of great concern to all of us. I would like to say one thing, Mr. Chairman, and that is this; that I have nothing but praise for the way that

Thuraclay, 17 May, 1184 Manitoba Hydro handled the situation. We had workers coming in from all over the province. I talked to some hydro workers that were there from Thompson, I talked with some hydro workers that were over there from the western part of the province. They were working round the clock.

They were doing their utmost to restore power as fast as they possibly could, because they saw, and they knew the dangers that were involved with not bringing power back as soon as possible. lt's not only light, it's not preparing food, but, - it didn't take very long - all the towns around there, Winkler, Morden, Carman, ran out of water. When the Min ister of Employment and Tourism, and everything else that he is, when he says that there was no real danger to life, Mr. Chairman, then I would like to tell you this.

The fire brigades in each and every one of those towns, because of all the hydro wires - and some of these were still live wires hanging around loose - there was a real danger of fire, and the towns ran out of water. That was possibly the most scary part of the entire episode that we faced. The hospitals, they had their auxil iary generators which switched on as soon as the power went off and by and large they could cope with this, but, mind you, when the town runs out of water hospitals and everybody runs out of water, so, they could not do their laundry.

But, fortunately the Towns of Winkler and Morden; especially Carman I think, was out of power a little longer, did not face too many difficulties because the power outage wasn't all that long. Even though, 30 hours, when you're without power does seem like an awful long time.

As soon as things got back to normal, I would say that the Disaster Service Board was out there and they were assessing the situation and they were very concerned about the situation and I'm sure that the Minister received their reports of the damage that had been done in those areas. - (Interjection) - The Minister says that he sent them out, okay, this was good, and this was appreciated. When it comes down to EMO, I have heard of absolutely no one that received any communication anywhere from EMO, that they were willing to come out there and help.

What I would request the Min ister do is that when situations such as this arise, that at least auxiliary generators be available so that we can switch them back and forth so that if towns run out of water, and this is a dangerous situation, that these auxilia ry units can be used to provide the towns with water. I myself, 1 have my own auxiliary generator, and my man on the farm was one of the busiest people around. He was going around all over the place providing power to those people that needed it. There was some people who could not milk their cows, there were some people who could not feed their animals.

Again, when the Mini ster of Tourism says that there was no real problem, I think that he should realize that you cannot water your . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of privilege. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the member is not quoting me accuratel y. I did not say that there wasn't a problem. I said that that kind of storm is not unusual 958 MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not a point of privilege, it's a clarification of a statement. HON. S. USKIW: . . . to this part of our continent. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, you can no longer water your hogs or your cows the way that you used to do it.

With a pump in the well with a handle on it and carry a pail of water In. Everything is done by electricity now. Your pump Is way down in the well, and it's all done by electricity, so there's no way that you can get at your water if you don't have electrici ty. You cannot water your cattle, you cannot feed your hogs because everything is on an assembly line. it's all fed in by electr icity . You cannot clean out your barn because again, all that stuff Is done by electricity.

Now, all the large dairies, all the large hog operators, all the large poultry operators, they have their own generators, but, it was the smaller people that had the real difficult time, and I was happy to be able to provide whatever my generator could do. it became very apparent that we do need an agency, and EMO certainly would be the agency that should be looking after this, that could assist in situations such as that.

That there would be people that would be willing to go around and help out poople that run into this type of difficulty, because, when you're out of power on a farm for five or six days it is a major concern. These are the things, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to draw to the attention of the Min ister and another comment was made over here that every time, when there is a disaster, you try to contact EMO, the line is busy, and it sure was true again this time. There was no way that people who wanted to contact EMO could get in contact with them. The line was always busy.

Somewhere along the line, we've got to have a better way of communic ating with EMO than what there is at the present time. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I can believe that we were just very very fortunate during this last ice storm, that we had the temperature that we did and it wasn't 20 degrees below zero, or we would have very likely had loss of life and all. I think we can count our blessings when it comes to that particular storm. Mr.

Chairman, we have regional offices in Portage la Prairie, Brandon, and in Thompson. it is my opinion, and I stand to be correct ed on this, but I believe there is a certain supply of emergency equipment available at these points. Am I right? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, EMO does not stock any equipment. They are only co-ordina tors in event of a disaster. They never have; they were set up as a communicating organization.

They have a list of where equipment can be procured , and where it's likely to be found and in the event that there's a requirement for pumps or generators, they Immediately advise the person who is asking for that equipment where it can be found. That Is the rule. it's a very small group of people. In fact, there's only 11 people last year. If we get this item through we'll have one more. They're a very small staff. I want to take the comment of the Member for Rhineland about the availability of being able to get

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 through on the lines, we'll check into that. I also want to thank him for the comments he made about the service he got from Hydro, and also the fact that the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board had been out very promptly, as I had asked them to do, and I thank him for those comments. As far as EMO stocking equipment, if EMO was to start stocking equipment now, would that be fair to all those farmers that already have bought the equipment? - (Interjection) - The Member for Rhineland has said that many farmers out there have generators on hand.

Now, should we be providing equipment for people that have not bought them. They're available for rent, they're available to purchase. The Member for Rhineland has one on his farm. Is it fair to the Member for Rhineland that he bought a piece of equipment, a generator, is it fair for us to buy one for his neighbour? These are the questions that we have to ask ourselves when you want to go into that kind of a situation.

As I suggested earlier in the evening, if we wanted to stock sufficient equipment to meet emergencies, I dare say it would cost $100 million, plus we would have to have I don't know how many more staff to deal with such an emergency. We had 500 Hydro employees out to try and put the power back. Another thing I would point out to honourable members that the highways were closed. For a time the RCMP would not let any traffic through, EMO or anybody else.

Everything had to be done by telephone, and we had to request the Armed Forces to come out and pick up stray people that were snowbound in the Carman area, and on No. 1 and so on, and they did an excellent job. I think they picked up around 60 people I understand and got them at least where they could be in their cars and not in a ditch covered in snow.

They were able to get to the towns and get shelter there; otherwise many of them would have spent the night in their automobiles, and that was EMO's work, they did all that. it's not only a few generators that they had to pick up and locate, they had a lot of other responsibilities as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, Mr.

Chairman, I wish that the Minister of Government Services would not have made some of these comments that he made towards the last. lt just means that he just doesn't understand, he wasn't out · there, he doesn't know what has happened, he is letting his imagination run wild with him. Nobody is going to object if EMO comes out there with a couple of generators and helps out as many farmers or as many people as they possibly can. it's the large operators who absolutely have to protect themselves that have this type of protection, they know that they have to have it.

The towns, by and large, are protected up to a point. This again was brought home at this time that they missed out on something, because as soon as your power shuts off in the Town of Winkler and the Town of Morden and the Town of Carman, your auxiliary pumps come on on your sewer systems, because there is nothing that is as bad as if your sewer system starts backing up, so they have provision for this. They did 959 not have provision to supply an auxil iary water system. This is really where EMO could have played a very large role if they would have had some generators out there to give them assistance.

The Minister is talking about large sums of money. I would say that if the Minister were to purchase 12 generators. You can get a pretty good generator for $1,000.00. Now you might need a little larger one or two or three larger ones that might cost $3,000.00. For $20,000 certainly, Mr. Chairman, he could provide us with the services that we would greatly appreciate. The Minister has no idea what he's talking about. This is the thing I guess that we are a little bit disappointed in. We are not talking large sums of money.

We're talking a service that could be provided by the government when an area is in distress. He gives the excuse that highways were closed, they couldn't go. That was for a very short time only. The next morning all the highways were opened and EMO could have come out to any community over there that was out of electricity without any problem whatsoever. They could have been driving all over the place, so that doesn't hold water. Mr.

Chairman, all I can say is that I wish that the Minister when he makes statements, that he would inquire, first of all, so that he would know what he was talking about. lt is not complicated at all. it's just that there's a little bit of service that is required and it doesn't need large sums of money. Just a little bit of service is all we're asking for. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(

a) Salaries- pass; 6.(

b) Other Expenditures- pass. Resolution 85: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g $589,200 for Govern ment Services, Emergency Measures Organization, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1985-pass. 7 .(

a) Exp enditur es Related to Capital Assets, Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets: 7.(

b) Replacement Vehicles - the Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Yes, on this here Expenditures Related to Capital Assets. There's $22 million there and I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us where this is being spent? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is ongoing Capital Works that are ongoing, and so much is spent each year on ongoing projects. The major one, I would say at the present time, is the Law Courts Building would be one of those which I mentioned in my opening remarks. On the Law Courts Building we're asking for $8 million.

There's another major one for the Provincial Archives Building and tha t's $1, 11 7,6 00.0 0. Mr. Chairman, there's another $4,152 ,200 and it's made up of miscellaneous projects, the Robert Fletcher Building. The Robert Fletcher Building is $1,476,800.00. There's going to be $1.5 on the Flin Flon Provincial Building, this is the Heritage Building. The Winnipeg Norqua y Building upgrade fire safety and that's $600,000, and then there's a bunch of miscellaneous ones from $100,000 to $170,000 - there's a numerous bunch there. Then there's the Headingley upgrade, the main building, fire and safety codes, that 's

Thursctar. 17 May, 1984 $1,11 6,000.00. There are another 10 projects that amount to $2,392,000 -numerous small projects, some are only $10, 000 but it's all ongoing programs. I think there's one in Portage la Prairie as well, Mr. Chairman. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be quite satisfied If the Min ister would complete the total list and have it sent to me, if he'll do that. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, what has to be done with the Portage School for Retardates? Is there any money being spent there? Is that part of the list? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. L. HYDE: That will be part of the list? HON. A.

ADAM: Yes. MR. L. HYDE: Well then. Mr. Chairman, we'll wait and get a complete list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(

a) Expenditures Related to Capital Assets, Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets­ pass. 7.{

b) Vehicle Replacement -the Member for La Verendrye. MR. A. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minis ter could tell us how many government vehicles we got on the road these days? HON. A. ADAM: Unfortunately, the honourable member wasn't here at the beginning. MR. CHAIRMAN: No reference to the absence or presence of the member. HON. A. ADAM: No, but I mean I did put it in the record, Mr. Chairman, earlier in the evening, but I don't mind repeating again. it's approxi mately 2,500. MR. A. BANMAN: How many kilometres are you looking at before you're trading? HON. A. ADAM: 12 0,000 or four years.

We try to keep within that range if we can, with some difficulty I want to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)-pass. Resolution 86: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $26,475,700 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985-pass. Going back to the Minister's Salary which is Item 1. (a) -the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have two or three questions for the Minister.

Could the Minis ter tell us if he has an EA, and if he has, what is the salary paid to the EA and where is the EA located? 960 HON. A. ADAM: Yes there's an EA that represents me in my constituency and he resides at Minnedosa. That's where his home Is. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Min ister what the pay was and if he could indicate that, I'd appreciate it. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe it's around 31, but I would have to verify that. Just off the top of my head, I don't have it. There Is a range pay scale where they start at, and they can . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The staff are excused.

The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister Indicates around $31 ,000.00. Does this individual have an automobile at his disposal, Mr. Chairman, as well, a government automobile? HON. A. ADAM: No, · Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Does he get paid mileage and other expenses, Mr. Chalrma;;? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. If he travels on behalf of the Minis ter, yes, he does. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, so we have him getting $31 ,000 plus expenses when travelling on behalf of the Minis ter, because he's employed by the Min ister. Does the Minis ter have a special assistant as well, Mr. Chairman? HON. A.

ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do. MR. J. DOWNEY: Where is the special assistant employed, and how much money does he make? MR. CHAIRMAN: Where is he, and how much? HON. A. ADAM: He is employed in Winnipeg in my office, and the salary -again, I'm just not exactly sure. lt would be In the range of 32 or somewhere around there, but I would have to verify it. I would prefer to get back to the member to be exact. MR. J. DOWNEY: Does he have an expense account or an automobile as does the executive assistant in Min nedosa? HON. A. ADAM: He does not have a government automobile.

If he was requested by the Minis ter to undertake work for the Min ister, he would be paid mileage on his vehicle if he used his vehicle, or he could u.>e probably the Mini ster's vehicle if required. MR. J. DOWNEY: So, Mr. Chairman, we have now the Minis ter of Government Services with an executive assistant, a special assistant drawing some 60-some thousand dollars of taxpayers' money in wages plus travelling expenses and additional expenses on behalf of the Minis ter of Government Services. Can the Mi nister as well confirm that the special or executive

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 assistant that lives at Min nedosa is as well a candidate for the New Democratic Party in the federal constituency of Portage-Marquette? HON. A. ADAM: I believe he has obtained a nomination. I want to cong ratulate him for having chosen to run in the next federal elect ion. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, one can now consider that the Minister of Government Services is employing a person at taxpayers' expense of $31 ,000 plus mileage to campaign in the federal election, Portage-Marquette; that he is actively a candid ate for the New Democratic Party and, at the same time, an employee of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I think this is a sham. I think the people of Manitoba should throw up their hands in disgust at such an incredible carrying-on by this government. I think it should be stopped and stopped immedi ately.

Will the Mini ster assure the people of Manitoba that this person is not selling mem berships to New Democrats, or carrying out political activities when he is being paid for and should be working for the people of Manitoba? Will he give that assurance, Mr. Chairman, and can he prove to the people that this person is not abusing the people's money and campaigning on his behalf for the federal election? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, if there is anybody that's disgusting, it is the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: I guess not. lt's a sham. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, we do not discriminate, we do not create second-class people. We believe that everybody is a first-class citizen of this province. We will not deny him the right to run for public office. He has a job classification; he has a job description; he has a job responsibility. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Min ister of Business Development wants to make some explanation. HON. S. USKI W: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Arthur suggested that the executive assistant of the Mi nister of Government Services is campaigning at public expense.

I ask you, Sir , whether that Is within the rules to permit that to be on the record without the member putting on the table the evidence to suggest that is taking place? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister to prove that employee of his was not campaigning on his behalf for the next election. I challenge the Minister to tell us that he's not campaigning while employed by the people of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The member is making a charge. He has to make substantiated evidence. MR. J. DOWNEY: No, no, he doesn't. 961 HON. A. ADAM: He's imputing . . .

A MEMBER: They never have to substantiate anything. That's the trouble, Conrad. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. A. ADAM: The Member for Arthur in his usual fashion is im puting motives on a person who is representing the Min ister in his constituenc y and services a number of offices in my constituency of Ste. Rose, at least a half-a-dozen of them on a regular basis, because the Mi nister is a member of the Executive Council and has to stay in Winnipeg on a weekly basis.

The executive assistant is representing the Mini ster in hi s constitue ncy, and the Member for Arthur is imputing motives. I would ask him either to put up or shut up. MR. J. DOWNEY: I won't do either. HON. A. ADAM: Let that be on the record that he imputes motives on a mem ber, a civil servant who is not here to defend himself, in his usual way, his arrogant way, his big-mouthed way from the constituency of Arthur. MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is a rule, Citation 359 which says: "A question must adhere to the proprieties of the House, in terms of inferences, imputing motives or casting aspersions upon persons within the House or out of it." HON. A. ADAM: I would ask him to withdraw, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, it is my belief that an employee of this government who is an executive assistant and not a civil servant, as he's indicated, and nominated for the New Democratic Party for the federal election for the constituency of Portage-Marquette, earning $31 ,000 of Manitoba taxpayers' money, could be campaigning for his election in the next federal general election at the taxpayers' expense. HON. S. USK IW: I hope he is, I hope he's campaigning MR. J. DOWNEY: The Mini ster of Tourism says, I hope he is. I hope he is - at the expense of the taxpayers. Yes, Mr.

Chairman, that is what he said, and it's a sham, and the people of Manitoba won't stand for it, nor will we. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the Member for Arthur that I would hope that any person that takes a nomination on behalf of any party would want to be campaigning as hard as they can to be elec ted. I hope that they do it as often as they can while they were employed, as long as they are not doing it while they are on the payroll during working hours.

Thursday, 17 May, 1984 Now, if the Member for Arthur is going to suggest to me that a person who is employed cannot use any part of a 24-hour day for personal lifestyle or whatever, then it's a different world, Mr. Chairman, than I have been brought up in. That is not to be expected of any individual that they should forsake all of their private life, because they are working in the public service. No civil servant does that, Mr. Chairman. They have the right to their private hours and to their private activities. Now once the election is under way, Mr.

Chairman, then I think the Member for Arthur would have a valid point. If the person was indeed involved in the election alter the writs were issued and still on staff, then I would think the member had a valid point. But up until that time, Mr. Chairman, the person is a citizen of this province like any other citizen. As long as he . . . A MEMBER: He's a political appointment. He's not a citizen. HON. S. USKIW: That's right, he is a citizen of Manitoba · when he's a political appointment. - (Interject ion) - That's right that doesn't deny him his citizen ship. Mr.

Chairman, as long as he's not abusing his office he has a right. - (Interjection) - it's up to anyone that wants to allege otherwise to table the evidence that that is taking place, Mr. Chairman. But innuendo, Mr. Chairman, should not be permitted without substantial evidence to back it up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, just to clarify this, is the Mini ster saying that it is okay for any Min ister of the Crown to have an executive assistant paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba, operate within his or her constitue ncy, out of his or her own home throughout the whole year, and be paid expenses for the services performed. Is that an established practice which is accep table to this government? MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a question on the floor. The Min ister responsible. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, as he represents the Mini ster primarily in the Min ister's constitu ency, but because the Min ister represents the entire province as the Mini ster of Government Services, If that individual is requested to represent the Min ister or arrange for meetings or schedules for the Min ister in different areas, if he represents the Mini ster at some mu ni