Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 40B (32nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

32-3-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 408- 8:00 p.m., MONDAY, 11 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. (Pate) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Aobert (Bob) BLAKE, David A. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CAAAOLL, Q.C., Henry N. COAAIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJAADINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOEAN, Auaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Bath DOWNEY, Jamea E. DAIEDGEA, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLEA, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOUALAV. D.M. (Doug) GAAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HAAAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYAA,Hon. Eugane KOVNATS, Abe LECUYEA, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MEACIEA, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NOADMAN, Aurik (Aic) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard A. PAAASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNEA, Q.C., Hon. Aoland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHAOEDEA,Hon. Yic SCOTT, Dpn SHEAMAN, LA. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STOAIE, Hon. Jerry T. UAUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. Jamaa Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East TUxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norb ert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO BA Monday, 11 June, 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. SU PPLY - COMMUNIT Y SERVICES AN D CORRECTIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Please come to order. We are still discussing 4.(a)

(1) Child and Family Services, Admini strat ion, Salaries. 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIE.R: Mr. Chairman, before we adjourned at 5:30 I thought the Member for Ellice had made some particularly good comments, as did the Member for Rupertsland. · I would like to know from the Minister how many children have been affected by the adoption moratorium since its inception? She mentioned a figure of 600. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: No, the figure of 600 was the number of Native children in care.

The number affected by the moratorium on out-of-province adoption are - I think I gave the figures as of January - that there had been 74 on the list a year- and-a-half ago; 24 more had been added and 74 placed, leavi ng a net of 24. MR. G. MERCIER: How many were on the list a year ago? HON. M. SMITH: 74 when the moratorium went into effect; that was March, 1982. The figures as of January, 1984 were 7 4 of the total 94 had been placed in adoptive homes and 24 remained unplaced. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister refers to have been place in adoptive homes, does she mean the adoption process, the generally accepted adoption process, under The Child We lfare Act? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s. My officials have informed me that some would be what we would call a permanent placement with a family, the equivalent but not a completed adoption. We can get updated figures if you request. MR. G. MERCIER: Excuse me, I have a question from another member. Did the Minister indic ate that the 74 were adopted as we generally accept the term "adoption"?

I raise it because she refe rred in the House in January to permanent placements which was an ambiguous term. I wasn't certain whether or not they had been adopted. HON. M. SMITH: Some are permanently placed with relatives which would be a custom adoption and some have had the formal adoption. We can get the updated figures for you if you like, but we don't have them here at present. MR. G. MERCIER: The 74 then, Mr. Chairman; is the Minister saying some are in what is called "custom adoption?" HON. M.

SMITH: They've been placed with extended family members and it's called a permanent placeme nt, but it's not a formal adoption as we legally term it. MR. G. MERCIER: In effect, then it's a foster home. HON. M. SMITH: The differ entiation would come between whether they're paid or not. And many of these they're not paid placements and they're cons idered permanent. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many have been legally adopted? HON. M. SMITH: I've already undertaken to get those numbers but I don't have them with me at present. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, what happens in the instance where these custom adoptions take place? Are those situations monitored on a regular basis by social workers or child care workers? HON. M. SMITH: There is an ongoing monitoring with the permanent placement group. MR. G. MERCIER: Why in those situations have legal adoptions not taken place? HON. M. SMITH: The Native community don't recognize adoption in the same way we do and since they are willing to take on the responsibilities of permanent placement, we've been willing to go along .with that as well. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, would those numbers include Native childr en all across Manitoba from all Children's Aid Societies? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate how many Native homes are listed in the registery as being available for assuming adoptive children? HON. M. SMITH: We have approximately 14 on the approval list for Infant placement at the present time. lt's an ongoing process, of course, in identifying placements. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, what does the Min ister expect to accom plish with the new reorganization of the Chil dren's Aid Society of Winnipeg? HON. M.

SMITH: (1 ), a participation by a broader sec tion of the community and the governance of the 1814

Monday, 11 June, 19114 agencies; (2), a closer relationship of an agency to the community organizations and the families in an area; and (3), a greater ability to build preventive family support services in co-operation with other organizations and with volunteer input. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister, in statements before referred to accountability; where does that fit In? HON. M.

SMITH: The accountability will be strengthened by the funding changes which will require accountability in terms of the types of program mix that is offered by an agency; the capacity of a director to issue directives where required; and a stronger role by government in giving policy direction via protocols. Tied to that will be an accountability in the budgeting and the program mix that the agencies develop. The other I think important component is the planning process which is being taken

part in by, not only the new boards, but upwards of 200 professionals working on different working groups dealing with the specific issues of service delivery, some of which will require central coordination and some of which will be decentralized.

One way that we can facilitate the accountability is also by the accounts, the automation of the data systems that are being done centrally which should facilitate information flow from the decentralized boards to the centre so that those services, such as, adoption and child abuse, which are going to require a fair degree of coordination, can in fact be done, and so that the monitoring can be supervised. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, at the same time the Minister talks about participation by local groups and closer relationships with the community, the Minister brings in legislative changes that will enable the government to direct the agencies as to what they're supposed to do. Mr. Chairman, certainly there are a fair number of people who turned out at the organizational meetings, and I went to one in our particular area, but I don't expect that, other than from time to time, the election of people, when they bring out their friends to help elect them to the Board of Directors, that there's going to be much real participation.

Certainly there could have been amendments involving the make up of the Children's Aid Society. They could have broadened, if that was necessary, the participation in that organization. There certainly seems to be a conflict between what the Minister says is the objectives, with respect to participation and closer relationship with community groups, and the legislative changes that she's bringing in which will enable the government to direct the agencies as to how to operate. Is the government doing anything to ensure a co ordination of efforts by six regional bodies in the City of Winnipeg? HON. M.

SMITH: I think accountability needs to be understo od in two directions. (1) a government responsible for funding most of the services for the legislation in setting guidelines; (2) accountability to the local community for flexible development of program within those broad guidelines of funding and program emphasis.

Because the boards are elected from a broad membership, we're currently at about 3,000 in the six areas, and because the representation on the boards Is balanced between local residents, people who work in the area, a staff that work in the field and in the agency, and a few government appointments, and the provision for annual election of a third of that board, it's felt that there is a structure there that will enable the community to participate as time goes by and, therefore, the accountability to the particular mix of needs in the local community is facilitated.

The type of services that will get a higher priority in the preventive and family support area will link closely with what is going on In schools; in community centres; in local day cares; in homemaking services; family counselling services, parent aid type of activities, parenting courses; they will be linked more closely to the Child and Family Support Service. lt will not, therefore, be seen as just the agency that moves in when things are bad, but as they, we hope over time, will be perceived as a supportive and helping agency that in fact, enables families to work things through and keep their families intact.

MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has there been a change in policy or a change in emphasis as the Minister stated earlier with respect to returnin!J abused children to their parents? HON. M. SMITH: No, there has not. That question has come up in the House. The guidelines for abused children have emphasized the responsibility of people working in the field anywhere who work with children, the obligation to report suspected child abuse to an appropriate group and then the obligation of that group to Investigate, and if necessary, proceed to court or remedial action.

The onus Is taken off the individual person to prove abuse. They're encouraged and protected to come forward when they suspect it. Then it's the responsibility of a team to investigate and follow through. The protection of the child, the best interest of the child, is the top priority in the system, but the way it is achieved - there are more ways in which the best interest of the child can be protected.

In other words, the only choice available to a local worker will not be apprehension, but in some cases, putting an extra worker right in with the family or drawing in the resources of extended family or people in the neighbourhood, so that if we're dealing with a crisis situation in a family that, once past, the family can then function quite normally. There will be a capacity to support that. But in no way has there been any policy directive that says, children must stay at home or be exposed to undue risk of abuse or neglect. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I raised a situation with the Minister in which a young child died. In that particular case a child was returned to its mother after it had been previously apprehended and there was a plan apparently for the care of that child which was not followed. I don't wish to particularly get into the details of that case because of the criminal charges that are involved; but can the Minister indicate whether or not there's been any change in the services provided through her 1815

Monday, 11 June, 1184 department with respect to monitoring and watch ing those situations very carefully to make sure that the plans that are adopted are followed through? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, the particular case in point, the same procedures were being followed that had been in place for several years, where a multi-disciplina ry team monitored the planning for the child and the mother and they made their best judgment as to what was desirable. An incident like that, of course always leads people to reflect and see wheth er: 1, the procedures were inadequa te; or 2, whether they need changing.

I've certainly asked that group to do just that. I think the tightening of procedures and some back-up services, in other words more resources that can be drawn in to support a parent that's in that type of situation which is part of the goal of our whole res tructuring of the Winnipeg agencies, it should serve to support kind of a network of supports with appropriate monitoring so that single parents undergoing the strain of caring for a youngster can, in fact , get support before they find thems elves in a desperate or a depressed type of situation.

You know, I would wonder if the member opposite is suggesting that we should go the opposite way and never leave a child with a single parent. I think the alterna tive is unacceptable, therefore what we have to do is try to build a much richer network of support services so that a person is not quite that isolated and out of touch so that such an incident can in fact occur. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, what I'm suggesting to the Minister is that when a child is being apprehended from a parent because of child abuse, and taken into care, and then a plan is developed by the child care workers, and the child is returned to the parent, and there are indications as there were that the plan was not being followed, then it requires almost instantaneous action by the department. You can't wait a week under those circums tances to arrange a meeting. In that type of a situation where there's a record of child abuse you have to act quic kly.

I'm not suggesting that chil dren never be returned but when they're returned under a plan which is not being followed the Minister should look carefu lly at the policies and procedures which are being followed. I assume from her answer that her department is looking at their policies and procedures, and that there will be some changes. HON. M. SMITH: We ll, it's our belief that with a smaller and more personalized agency that type of event is less like ly.

One thing you do run into in the city is a rather remote type of service, child abuse services in a sense were delivered from one location and what we are wanting to do is to spread that type of expertise much more widely and be sure that we've built in the support network. So we agreed that the unfortunate incidents, I guess always point the way to improvement. In that particular case, certainly people had followed the existing guidelines so they were inadequa te in the sense they wer en't able to prevent this particular situation. I think the workers in the field have been sensitized by that experience.

The question is, though, tha t we must ensure that they have the resources available so that their ca seloads in all aren't so heavy that they don't have the capacity to give quicker response. Now we have recognized with child abuse that we must be able to respond night time and weekends, that we can't run a 9 to 5 service. I have asked that reso urces be made available on that kind of flexible basis so there can be an immediate response. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ell ice. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr. Chairperson, I am one who is of mixed feelings about the reor ganization of the child welfare service agencies.

I don't pretend to have any special expertise or knowledge that makes my judgment any more valid than anybody else's, but I know that there are some very very serious concerns associated with trying to attain the laudable goals that the Minister has referred to during the course of her remarks. I recog nize that it's important that a child welfare agency have a certain degree of intimacy and a certain degree of special rapport and, hence, sensitiv ity with the communi ty it purports to serve, but I'm not sure that smaller is better.

I think, for the purposes of discussion in committee, it's worth considering whether or not we can effectively monitor the performance of the new bureaucratic system in such a way as to assure that those whose interests are supposed to be protected will be protected as fully as possible. I guess for me the bottom line is how we assess and how we monitor the real ongoing efficiency and viability of the six new regional Winnipeg centres.

There is no question in my mind that the former agency had begun to disfunction, and I base my opinion probably on the same grounds that the departmental members and the Minister and her predecessor based their decision with respect to that agency's ability to continue to perform its mandate. But I'm concerned, I'm not one who's convinced that simply because you have smaller , you have more intimacy, you have more rapport. I gue ss I don't think life is that simplistic in the raw. I think you can still have people who are incapable in their positions, even though you have six different small organizations.

You might even have more inefficient directors of child welfare among six organizations than you did among one. I don't know who does more harm. You can have two or three people who are unable to perform in a group of six who can actually reap more havoc than one can if ident ified early enough in the larger centralized bureauc racy. So I continue to be a bit skeptlcal about the reorganization, and I guess I have an inhe rent disbelief in simple bureaucratic solutions. I see reor ganization along the model of six as being intrinsically in some way superior and in some ways inferior to the pre existing model.

So I have a lot of difficulty with respect to this new concept in child welfare. I see it as a bureaucratic approach and not as a long-term social approach. I ask the Minister to express her views with respect to how we are going to monitor the perfo rmance of the new regional system? How will we do that? I think that's the key to ever ything; if the monitoring and assessment is adequate, then I think that we can all rest more peacefully knowing that safeguards have been 1816

Monday, 11 June, 11184 put in place to assure that we won't have repetitions of what brought us to this juncture in the first place. If there are no appropriate safeguards, then I don't think we've done a lot except rejuggle an existing and pre-existing system. HON. M. SMITH: I agree that no structure or bureaucratic reoganization has got all the answers. I think, again, though that the type of structure that one has, and the process that one ho!)es to follow, and the goals of the system have to be looked at in concert and have to be in some harmony.

We're certainly recognizing the need to have training for the board people who are elected from the community and, therefore, bring a broader perspective and many more facets of opinion into the situation. They will receive joint training so that they learn the skills of working in a board and in a policy-setting role and in a monitoring role. They will also meet with one another on occasion so that they can provide mutual critiques, in a sense, of one another and learn from one another.

I think it's true, as we get into the components of a child and family service, that we find some are better on a smaller scale, delivered more locally, others need to be centrally co-ordinated. The process we have at the moment with the 200 people working on the specific services from a co-ordinating perspective are identifying which things should be decentralized and very flexible, based on the local community need and which should be centrally co-ordinated, such as, the child abuse unit and some of the adoption listings and so on.

Now we are increasing the data collection at the centres so that we'll have some kind of comparable data to go by and that's a necessary but not sufficient part of any monitoring system. We will have a co ordinating board that will have representatives from each of the six to monitor what goes on and to make recommendations as time to goes and to debate very openly the development of the system. We're building in, in terms of legislative change in the role of the director, as clear a policy direction and an ability to require accountability as we can.

The basis on which funds will be allocated will also require accurate feed back in terms of where the resources are being spent and the rationale for that. Although we expect a degree of variation among the regions we will be able to identify if one region is putting all their money into one type of service and nothing into another. In other words, there will be a kind of mutual crosscheck that can secured from that end.

This system will be more open to commu nity review, and that doesn't mean that every time a question is raised by a commu nity group or a criticism made that a board will jump, but it does mean, because of the openness of this system, that those points of view will need to be rec ognized and dealt with in an open way and is clear criteria given for the reasons for board actions as can possibly be achieved.

We built in a major assessment process in the third year, whicl:l is common when you're introducing a new system, and you design that assessment very much as you develop this system because a system always has certain goals. If you don't build in a way of checking whether you're actually achieving those goals in a sense you've only done half your planning. I would disagree that this is a bureaucratic approach to the service, I think all along there ha s been a very open and consulta tive approach to the changes and an examination of a lot of different models before this was arrived at.

The process of planning continues to be a broadly particlpative and open process, so I think we have the opposite of a bureaucratic talk down imposed ty� of system. Again, it is really six more equal-sized agencies in place of one very large one - or one mid sized and one rather small agency, so it's not exactly six in place of one, but it is matching a lot of the literature on how to build commun ity networks in an urban setting.

We think it has a lot of exciting aspects to it and that it does show promise, but it's going to take a lot of work and commitment and patience to enable it to accomplish what we think is a real co operative type of service delivery instead of an all government or all-private one. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr. Chairperson, I don't want to be misinterpreted . I personally believe that children are essentially the property of no one and the responsibility of the state. That's part of my fundamental philosophy.

That the state has a responsibility towards all of its people and all of its children and so I don't want to be misunderstood as suggesting that I ti1lnk this approach is simply too bureaucratic. In fact, I would be one who would advocate a system where the state assumed the burden of more responsibility and took the political risk for that responsibility than the decentralized approach, which I think, offers very little except a great deal of concealment.

I don't say that trying to indicate that I think this Minister or her predecessor are attempting to conceal anything in this area, but rather because I really think that it's important that there be full accountability in any child welfare system which derives its power and jurisdiction from the people, and so I believe that the state is the common denominat or. The state has responsibility through its elected representatives and their public sorvants to admin ister a program which is both valid and viable in terms of social needs and priorities.

I'm one who would probably be favourably inclined to a more state-organized form of central child welfare as long as there was more direct accountability. Having said that, I don't see why we can't have broad community representation even at that level. I think it's conceptually possible. I think you get into some very, very broad questions and obviously some of the parallels are matters such as school boards and the role school boards play vis-a-vis the Minister in Department of Education in terms of concept ual, bureaucratic parallels in structure.

I think that it's conceivable that in a social democratic state, and I say that again in a very broad way, that the state could assume the burden of that responsibility and organize its functions in such a way as to be in close conjunction with the people it represents and their broad range, long-term interests. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I want to bring to the attention of this committee is similar to a case that has been discussed at length from the Member for St. Norbert. 1817

llonday, 11 June, 1984 The case that I want to bring forward regards government policy to native adoption. We have, first of all the Minister has had correspondence in her hands since March into April and May and now it is June, with very little response, if any, to this particular case. So, Mr. Chairman, I feel that it must be brought forward at this particular time. I'm speaking on behalf of a young native lad, by the name of Ronnie Eaglestick who has been under the care of foster parents since January of'82. lt is the belief of these people, Mr. and Mrs.

Titus, that the adoption of this native child should be dealt with almost immed iately for the sake of the boy's future. Today, Ronnie Eaglestick is five years and four months of age and if he is not put up for adoption to a suitable home very soon, he will be past the suitable age for adoption. So, Mr.

Chairman, it would seem to me that the act ions of the present government with regard to the policy that they are following where a native child must be adopted by a native family within the Province of Manitoba, it seems that the families are not there ready to serve the needs of these native people and it has been brought to my attention, Sir, that there are families possibly outside the Province of Manitoba who are both suitable and willing to adopt Native childr en from the Province of Manitoba. lt would seem, Mr.

Chairman, that this policy at this particular time is very unjust to the Native people of our province. What we are doing is denying this young lad the right to lead a somewhat normal life, I guess you could say, where he could be, if he was placed in a proper home, could be given that opportunity to live under the guida nce of a mature mother and father willing to take the responsibilities. lt has been said to me that in this particular case, Mr. Chairman, that the future of this young lad is very grim, you might say.

I have met the Titus family and I have also met the young lad in question and believe you me, I can understand their concern for this young land that some thing be done to assure him with the proper care in the near future. lt is most urgent, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that young people such as this lad should be given the opportunity to enjoy a close family rela tionship with a proper mother and father. This particular young lad has been jostled about every since he was just almost an infant. lt is obvious to me that he certainly does need proper care at this particular time in life.

I'm hoping that the Minister will give every consideration to possibly changing the policy that is presently followed by her government and see that cases such as this young lad's be dealt with in the near future. HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, I would like to respond to this without refe rring to this specific youngster or family because I think it's better not to deal with specific cases in this forum, but I think the case does raise some special policy questions which I will comment on.

There was a moratorium put on out-of-province placement because of the concern of the pattern that was devel oping where very large numbers of Native youngsters were placed out of province. There was just a recognition that some better alternative had to be found. Now in the placing of that moratorium there was the ministerial discretion left, should there not be an alternative placement in a cultu rally appropriate home found. One of the factors that has made this little youngster, and others like him, difficult to place is that he does have special needs.

Kids with special needs do present a particular difficulty in placement. Now there's two fact ors here. One is that when we put the moratorium on, and as we've been working with it, we've recognized that there must be a time frame imposed on the alternative procedure of looking for appropriate placement because it's not fair, as the different agencies gear up and try to find appropriate placement , to leave a particular youngster waiting too long. We are working on putting time frames, which we will enforce, onto the length of time which an individual child can be held before placing.

But I want to empha size two points. One is that the time frames that we will use we didn't want just to impose what we thought was our best guess as to an appropriate time frame. We have been working co operatively with the agencies to come up with a time frame that has the support of the other groups and, therefore, will be honoured. Now we can enforce but it's much better if you can get understanding and co" operative support. The other issue is that we inherited a child and family system which had no time frame and no requirement that there be permanent placement planning at all.

We have been working to require permanent placement to reduce the time frame within which that is expected to take place from the time a child comes into care. But you don't pick up a system that has nothing and convert it to a system that is ideal ove rnight, it takes time. lt's taken the Native agencies time to gear up in their ability to identi fy appropria te resources since the moratorium was on. I think every one has been more than presently surpris ed with the speed and effectiveness with which they've done it.

I've already quoted the numbers of youngsters that were on the waiting list when the moratorium went Into effect compared to the list now which is down to a third of that. Now the youngsters that are difficult to place, either in Manitoba or formally out of, were kids with special needs, sibling groups and older children. Now we know from some of the out-of-province placements that they didn't always offer 100 percent secure placement either .

We 're ail smarting from the tragedy of the Cameron Curley case where a youngster, in good faith I'm sure, was placed out of province and given what ev eryone thought was a nice secure permanent home. Of course, it turned into a horror story for that young man. So I don't think we should contrast the placement out of province with the moratorium period as a shift from a time when every thing was rosy to a time when everyt hing is dark. We are making headwa y, we are working on the time frames which we think are appropriate within which permenanc y planning should be completed.

As I say, we hope shortly after the consultative process to be able to put those into effect. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also am quite concerned about decentralizing the operations 1818

Monday, 11 June, 18U within the City of Winnipeg, forming six areas, when we know very well that within these six commu nities a lot of the work will have to be done by a centralized commi ttee anyhow. Larger cities than Winnipeg are operating with one Children's Aid Society, namely, Toronto if the Minister wishes to take a look at what is happening over there. Toronto is noted as having one of the best Children's Aid Societies within Canada. They're doing an extremely good job; they're doing an efficient job and it's a city with four times the population of Winnipeg.

My question would be, where did this demand come from that we fragment this Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, where did the demand come from to decentralize it into six areas, which possibly can be functional, I'm not saying that it can be functional ,but it certainly is going to cost a great deal more money, additional staff will have to be hired. What this additional staff is going to do, they'll still have to report to some sort of central agency.

So my question to the Minister is where did this demand come from to decentralize the Children's Aid Society because, as far as I'm aware, there was not particular demand? HON. M. SMITH: There was a co-operative planning process going on to look at the delivery of service prior to difficulties with CAS Winnipeg. CAS Winnipeg had an accumulating deficit; they had very few dollars, relatively speaking, being spent on the preventive family support services, and they had a Native community which felt that they couldn't get access to becoming members of the board or have their culturally appropriate needs met.

So there was a need to change, and then there was the question of which model to follow. Now in deciding which model to follow there certainly was an examination of what was done in Toronto where there are at least two societies, the Catholic and the secular one, and then Peel, which is in some respects a suburb, has its own board. So they didn't necessarily go the route of only one, but in analyzing the philosophy that we wanted our Child and Family Services to promote we didn't necessarily feel that their system had all the answers either.

We felt that if we wanted a service to be more on the preventive and family support side that we must offer it in a way that linked in to families, and to community organizations, so that people would see it, not just as the big CAS that comes from the central office downtown and apprehends youngsters and takes them away, but as a friendly neighborhood agency which would do everything possible to help the family stay together and learn how better to cope with urban living and raising children, and only as a last resort would move In and apprehend a child.

To accomplish that, we felt that the tiered system if you like, where there would be a co-ordinating central group, where there would certainly be policy direction and accountability and protocols and so on from the Provincial Government, and where there could also be the benefits of a decentralized, more integrated service with the local community organizations, offered the best hope of that type of service. Having elections from members in the community, having an openness to the local commu nity, provides us with the opportunity to draw in a lot more volunteer participation.

We also had operating in the city, an agency that had experimented a lot with this type of service and they were getting good results with shifting more of their resources to the support in the preventative end. So we had some experience, we'd be quite happy to show that experience to Toronto. Who knows, they may find that we have something to emulate.

Anyway, building it on our philosophy of trying to keep families and communi ties together wherever possible and trying to make the urban living a little bit more supportive of children and families -the logic of the whole analysis pointed towards this type of a system. We are confident that the staff will -we can't predict precisely whether the numbers will go up or down.

What we can predict is that we'll have proportionately more staff involved at the family support end, that we will have more Native staff and hopefully more staff from the varying cultural groups that exist in Winnipeg; that we will be doing a lot more training of cross-cultural awareness because our urban community is changing rapidly and the practice which may have stood us in good stead 10 years ago may not be the best we can do today.

So all these factors have lead us towards this structure and we think it has the best advantages of a centralized, fully acco untable system with the decentralized flexible service delivery portion; that it's a composite system and it really does offer, I think, an exciting opportunity to bring more resources to bear. it's a better device for bringing volunteers into the system.

In these tough economic times, we're not going to find it easy to find great new resources for child and family services, therefore it's incumbent on all of us to build a framework whereby we can draw optimally on trained staff, on volunteer resources, and on linking up with existing community organizations like the schools and like the community centres. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister would be this.

Regarding the previous Minister -didn't a lot of these problems start when the previous Minister was in charge of Community Services? it seems to me that there was absolutely no co operation at that particular time with the Children's Aid of Winnipeg, and it seems to me that, right from the time that he became Minis ter, that they had this particular movement as one of their goals that they would attain making it impossible for the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg to continue to function. There are a number of things which caused us grave concern.

One of these was of course that they were supposed to come up with some type of program and plan which they did but before they could present their final program and their final plan, the eve on which they were going to present this to the Minister, the board was disbanded and a new board was set up. Now, this was done without any other plan being in place to replace the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg.

Yes, the Minister had made the decision that we were going to have six areas, six agencies within Winnipeg, yet none of them, the plans were not anywhere near to becoming functional and it is going to take, I suspect, at least another year before any of these agencies are going to be functional. I believe that this is the thing that Is distressing us so much. We are going to be spending a year-and-a- 1819

Mondar, 11 June, 1984 half at least trying to make decisions, trying to form policies. In the meantime, there are a lot of children out there who need placement, who are looking for the type of direction which they are not receiving at the present time. This really must be where the concern lies. I am told that there are a good number of children awaiting placement, awaiting adoption that were perfectly adoptable, awaiting placement at the present time. Ye t, there seems to be no particular agency or nobody who can give that particular direc tion at this time. This to me is absolutely deplorable.

I do not think that the childr en of this province deserve that type of tre atment. lt is for that reason, Mr. Chairman, that I am highly critical of what is happening. If we were going to form six areas, then why did we not have a plan in place so that we could step in a do this hurriedly? lt's some thing that is just absolutely incomprehensible as far as I am concerned. In addition to this, we're going to have additional costs in these six areas.

We 're going to have six dir ectors and there'll have to be some kind of ac counting practice going on so they can forward whatever they're going to do to a central agency. We 'll have to have co-ordinators in all these six areas which are going to be co-ordinating the volunteers. We'll have to have perinatal and emergency services. We'll have to have group home co-ordinators. We'll have to have child welfare services and on and on. Now there is going to be considerable extra cost, monies which I say should be going to the care of childr en rather than in hiring more personnel to run this operation.

So I wonder if the Minister could answer, why did we have to move in such haste before we had another program that was ready to go? MR. CHAIRMAN: I notice that we have been discussing the Children's Aid Society which should appropriately come under 4.(b). Why don't we pass 4.(

a) first and then go to the Children's Aid Society and we can continue the discussion? The Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, we are under the salaries of the people who are doing the planning, who are responsible for advising the Min ister on that particular area. I would prefer if we could discuss this particular area under this

section and then we will not have to repeat it when we get to another secti on. MR. CHAIRMAN: With the understan ding that we don't repeat the question under (b), that will be fine. The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, there was a two year process of planning a change in this system. The planners are coming up for a termination of that two year period now.

The situation with CAS Winnipeg did advance the process somewhat, but not by many months and, when we realized that it was necessary to move a little faster, the Interim Board was put in place with all the authority and respo nsibility for giving direction for deal ing with the children, as the previ ous board - at least take the same res ponsibility for the children that the previous board had - and not leave anyone waiting in limbo. In fact, we don't have a longer waiting list for childr en requiring place ment; there hasn't been a great shift.

The only shift, really, has been a gradual decrease In the use of the rather costly group home alternative for children under 12, particula rly, and a great increase in the use of foster homes which we find are more suitable for the younger children. The recognition of the need every once in a while, to look at the system as it's evolved bit by bit, year by year, and do a rationalization was long overdue. Te n years ago in the Joe Ryant Report on the child welfare system, he recognized at that time that Children's Aid Societies had developed as small private groups working to meet a need.

They'd found they couldn't raise funds on their own, that they had to come to government increasingly to the point where the public was funding them almost exclusively and yet having very little influence over the way the money was spent or on the policies that were followed within that system.

There was no openness in the way these s<>-called boards were selected ; the membership had dwindled almost to the people on the board so that there was no clear information as to how the public could become a member of a board, how they could put their names forward to run for the boards, or how in any way these boards could be made accountable to the commun ity, let alone to the government that was responsible, by legislative authority, and also by having to provide the bulk of the funding.

So a planning process was in place; it was accelerated and the Interim Board, as I say, was put in control while the transition process was accelerated. A very thorough planning manual that outlined the series of tasks to be accomplished - who would do what, training procedures and so on for the new boards - is out and in place and I think anyone who is familiar with the procedures of accomplishing such a mammoth shift in organizational structure and in process, anyone that we have talked to is very supportive of the process that we have put in place.

A great many people are taking part and influencing the way the system develops. There is, as I say, a range of services which are allocated to the local, community level. There's another range of services which are allocated to the coordinated central level and then there is a policy direction and data collection role that is carried out at the provincial level. So, I absolutely reject the notion that the transition has not been carried out in an orderly and responsible way and I think it's moving along very satisfactori ly.

The situation prior to the change offered virtually no input for the Native people whose youngsters were repres enting increasing proportions of the youngsters in care.

They were not having access to the boards or to the policies that had to do with their children, and what we were frankly facing was a system where the prime client group was losing trust and confidence. lt would be foolish to pretend that we have overn ight elimi nated that distrust and split. lt's going to take a long time and a lot of hard work from all parties to build a system where there is more confidence and coordination, but what we are doing is putting all the problems out on the table and helping to design a process whereby the problems can get looked and dealt with in a way that truly makes sense to the families and the communi ties involved. 1820

�J, 11 June, 1184 MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(aX 1)-the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. I am very much concerned as to what is happening in this particular area. We seem to have gone about this in a manner which is creating a great deal of ill will towards the Children's Aid Society, especially in the City of Winnipeg. We don't have that problem in the rural area, but especially in the City of Winn ipeg there is a great deal of criticism which has been mentioned by various people who are concerned about the Children's Aid Society.

We have an Interim Board, at the present time, that already has lost the confidence of the people. The Native situation, at the present time, has not been resolved, or is not anywhere near being resolved. The Native community is still very unhappy and don't feel that they are part of the proc ess. Ther e's a feeling In the commun ity that the Mini ster has politi cized the Children's Aid Society because she would not allow nominations from the floor and the people that they could vote for were largely chosen by members of her staff. HON. M. SMITH: Not true. MR. A.

BROWN: Well, whether that particular statement Is true or not, that Is what the people out there percieve because, again, mainly because nominations were not open from the floor. HON. M. SMITH: They were open. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister says that there has been a consultative approach with various people and yet, again from reports that I am receiving at least, is that this consultative approach is mainly with members of her staff. All these things, Mr. Chairman, do give us a great deal of concern. We should not have this type of disharmony within the Children's Aid Society that we have at the present time.

I would hope that somewhere along the line , that some middle ground can be established where we can all again start working together towards where the need is, and that is the children that are in need. I just wonder if the Minister could just comment on some of these problem areas that I have pointed out to her. HON. M. SMITH: Before the break, Mr. Chairman, we heard from the Mem ber from Rupertsland tell in his words and with his feelings, how he had perceived the child welfare system and the residential school system, from the point of view of a Native Manitoban.

Now, what I heard him say was that things aren't going to change quick ly, but we must find a way to improve them and to share with Native people the responsibili ty and to see they have the resources to look after their own children. What I suggest is that what people saw as harmony before was a small group operating the way it always had and never bringing up onto the table the issues that had to do with Native child welfare in the city.

What we're doing is laying those Issues on the table, saying they're difficult Issues, but they're important issues, and what we must have is a process and a structure that allows them to come up to the surface and be looked at. Change Is never easy; there's a lot of people In the field who would prefer things just to go on in a comfortable way, but any true professional knows that they must keep up to date in their field. Lawyers are increasingly being called to account to keep up with changes in their field; social workers, the same; teachers.

There's none of us who are professionals today who can afford to sit back and say, "The way we've done things is the best and that nothing should change." Now we're being challenged as a community to open up and find ways to develop more culturally appropriate child and family services, ways to count our Native Manitoba brothers and sisters into the system. The whole process that we've been engaged in has that as a main purpose. lt also has an opening up, a democratization of the Childr en's Aid system beyond the small groups that have in the past served as the decision-making boards in the field.

Now in terms of how we got to the selection of these boards, what we were dealing with was the problem of giving the community a chance to elect the boards for six agencies. We were dealing with populations of 100,000. We could not issue an open meeting to everyone in the area to come out to a meeting and have a completely open nomination process. Much as any group that deals with large numbers of people, there had to be a process.

Now the process we put in place was one that we thought squared the requirements of getting it In place relatively quickly, with the requirements of having it open and free from direct political influence. To do that, we advertised open membership in the board. We solicited nominations from residents in the area and from groups working in the area. We held open meetings to publi cize; we put up posters; we di stributed pamphlets; we advertised in the newspapers; we selected a nomination board which I defy you to say was a staff nomination committee.

The three people who served on that committee were instructed to function at arm's length. They were not political appointments. They were people who we felt had the respect of all segments in the community to the extent any human beings can be said to have that respect and support. They carried out their process. They received the nominations and they made the selections so that there was at least 50 percent more nominees than there were places.

We contemplated having open nominations at these meetings, but we thought of the horrendous task of verifying where they lived, who they came from, which category they came in and still retain the patience of a group invited out to do the selection. So we opted for the advanced nominations, but they were In no way secret or closed. People had ample opportunity to take

part in that process and to submit names. Those boards now have built into them a replacement of one-third of their membership each year. They also have the categories in a sense built in. So it's not easy for any one group in the community to move in and dominate because we want a broadly representative group. If we had wanted to politicize something like that, we would have moved in and appointed them all in short order and got on with the business. But it's because we believe in the benefits 1821

Mond•y, 11 June, 1884 of a more democratized process in child and family services that we have gone through all this process. Now if you want to say that politicization has to deal with values, then I don't mind that kind of a term because I think the values that were represented here were ope nne ss, democratization, accountability to the public, broad representativeness and a real commitment to build preventative and family support services of which we can all be proud. If those are the political values that dominated the process, then I'd be proud to accept that comment.

In terms of consultation, there are currently well over 200 professional people from the field working on the various components of the process. Some of those services must be co-ordinated centrally . They are giving us the benefit of their experience and helping to create this new system. Far from disharmony, I think what we have is the possibility of creating harmony, but harmony in which all the people have a chance to play their tune rather than just have a small little chamber orchestra dictating the nature of the service. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1) - the Member for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr.

Chairperson, I was interested in the concept of the protocol. This terminology is a bit new to me, and I would like to ask what the effect , legal or otherwise , is of a protocol between government and a regional child care agency? What sort of effect does it have? HON. M. SMITH: That is an impo rtant question. Legislation, of course, has the strongest authority. Next to that come regulations that are passed by Order-in Council, and they have the next level of weig ht. Protocols follow from that - protocols and directives.

They would not neces sarily stand up in a court as an absolute principle that a judge would rule on, but they would give direction to the people working in the field, that if they follow these protocols, they can be consi dered to have performed their jobs efficiently and effectively . They would not be held up to be personally res ponsible for some misdemean or. lt's a way that policy direction is given in a system and it's persuasive, it's in the form of a recommendation rather than an absolute rule. But it gives comfort, if you like, to the person in the field because it's a recommended procedure. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. B. CORRIN: I have another question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that on the same subject? The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I was . . . MR. G. MERCIER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The Member for Ellice was asking a question, and it's been established practice in the committee for you to allow that member to complete his line of questio ning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Member for Rhineland have any objection, because I notice that he has not . . . MR. B. CORRIN: On the same point of order, I have no objection to allowing the Member for . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: He has not completed his line of questioning when the Member for Ellice had been trying to be recognized for the last three times. MR. B. CORRIN: I need a lot of time to gather my thoughts anyway, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm trying to alternate and at the same time balance the line of questioning. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was not quite finished with my line of quest ioning. There were a few other things I wanted to discuss, but I will defer to the Member for Ellice and let him finish his line of questioning at the present time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: We're obviously all being good fellows tonight, good gals and fellows. · Mr. Chairperson, I'm concerned about the protocol simply because, obviously, they're the underpinning on which the mutuality here exists. When the Minister talks about a more representative type of system and a more democratic system, she's obviously got to consider that and we all have to consider that in the context of the legal effect and ramification of the policy protocol.

As I said before, I'm one who believes that the policy should essentially be responsive to the people, but should be made here and should be acc ountable at the top end. I'm not suggesting that's definitive. I think we could have a very good wide-ranging discussion and debate on the entire subject of what sort of approach and concept the child welfare is most eff ective. But I am a bit concerned about the protocol insofar as I don't know how it's enforceable. Other than the suggestion that somebody would be out of line in terms of their respo nsibilities, I don't know how you make an enforceable protocol.

I don't know what you do if you have a reg ional board which says, we don't agree with the protocol. This community thinks the protocol is rubbish. Now, I'm one who believes that the protocol should be more than a protocol and shouldn't be rubbish and the matter should be put in some final way to the public at election time if departmental policy is rubbish. But that's not absolute. I wanted to go on, Mr. Chairperson, in the same vein talking about democratic representation and representativeness to ask the Mini ster how we're dealing with the question of Native input.

There's been a suggestion that the new system, the decentralized system, will become suddenly more sensitive to Native concerns. I'm concerned about how we're doing that. Are we doing that by mandating affirmative action? I don't know the answers, Mr.

Chairman, and I think all of us would want to know, are we going to mandate affirmative act ion so that Native people must be retained as child care workers, as line service workers In the divisions; or are we doing some sort of ongoing inculcation of Native cultur al values and traditions, familial orientation that would be applicable to people of any racial or ethnic origin? How are we dealing with 1822

Mond•r. 11 June, 1984 that? How are we actually translating our aspirations into direct service approach? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the elections were as open as they could be. Seventeen Native persons were elected out of -if 12 people were elected in each of 5 because one CAS Eastern was permitted to carry on -to phase into the system in a slightly different way so that 17 out of 60 were elected. An affirmative action hiring program will be built, rei::om mended to the regional agencies -recommended in a stronger way than that will be expected.

There will be training and cross-cultural values and understandings with staff who are not Native or for that matter there are many other cultural groups in the city which are going to require increasing study and understanding in the child and family system so we are working at training in those fields. There will be appeal procedures so that people can appeal a decision at a less formal level than courts. Of course, there's always the final appeal to the courts. Legislation, ·JoJe did have a draft act that has been circulating and getting a lot of consultation for quite a period now.

We're on ly putting in selected amend ments now. We're wishing to continue the consultative process in order to see how best to bring in cultural realities to the legislative end. Short of that, we will be working with protocols that are developed in consultation with people in the fields so that what they represent is not so much a direction from on high, but a co-operatively arrived at procedure that makes sense. lt's a result of a joint problem-solving approach to the problem. The biggest option for Native input is a Native Service Centre that we have.

We are negotiating with the reserve-based agencies and the Native organizations in the city whereby we have offered to enable them to deliver the family support type of service, the preventive and family support service through a centre where all of the respective Native groups would have their own spot and they would have a board elected by them to operate the centre. Native people could self-refer themselves to that centre as an intake spot if they so chose. Then, we would provide some core funding for that centre.

In addition, the centre could negotiate with the regions, particularly the regions that have the largest Native populations, to in a sense sell a service to them of family and support services, preventive and family support services so that they could as they built up trained staff over time, be assuming a fairly large proportion of the service to Native children because our goal would be increasingly to havt:! Native people give service to their own families and children. But that's not something that can be achieved overnight and what we want is an orderly process for developing it.

Any of the legal services which would include apprehension and foster placement and adoption would still take place through the structure of the regions. We would hope that the team planning could increasingly be incorporated so a Native person would be involved in developing that plan but the legal authority would rest with the regions.

Now, that's a fairly complex set of initiatives that come both from the provincial level and from the service level up and from the commu nities which we think put together, can vastly increase the opportunity of Native people to become part of the system in an orderly way and a method that will permit accountability to develop as the system grows. MP. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just had one other comment to make and as I was saying earlier that the City of Winnipeg is divided at the present time regarding Children's Aid Society.

This is something that we cannot afford because it's the child ren in the community that are going to be suffering through that division. So, I hope that the healing process can happen quickly and there's only one way that that healing process is going to happen. That Is that there will have to be some very definite direction that will have to come from the Minister's office, regarding the six agencies. There will have to be job descriptions in the various people who are appointed or hired for various positions.

In other words, there will have to be accountability because the Minister can rest assured that one-half of the population of Winnipeg is going to be out there watching every move that the Children's Aid Society is making. There is an urgency that these agencies be placed in a functional position as soon as possible. We have every reason to ask the Minister to work as quickly as she possibly can to get these agencies in place and to prove to the people of Winnipeg that this is going to work because they are going to be, as I mentioned earlier, they'll be watching every move that she's going to make.

If she can prove to the people that these agencies are going to work, that this process is going to work, then hopefully we'll be able to get that healing process under way. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)( 1) -the Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: I hasten to say, amen to the member's words. I trust that he means when he talks about healing, that ail the citizens be involved in that process, that we in a sense achieve a bigger consensus than we had before.

On the planning side, I will undertake to forward to the member tomorrow the planning manual that is guiding the transition of the system and which I assure him does recognize the detail such as job descriptions. I also want to say that the citizens of Winnipeg, there may be many watching but there's also more than there have ever been in the past participating and contributing thei· bit to making sure that this system does, in fact, evolve into a system that we can ail be proud of. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)( 1)-p ass; 4.(a)(2) -the Member for Rupertsland. MR. E.

HARPER: Yes, I just wanted to say that in terms of the reorganization of the Children's Aid Society I believe the Native people welcome the reorganization. I also realize that Native people are not totally satisfied with the organization, but it'll take time before we have 1823

Monday, 11 June, 1984 this fully developed organization. At this time I would say that I think there was a lot of expectations from the Native community in terms of total reorganization into one of, I believe, total control of the Children's Aid Society, not by total control but at least with respect to Native children by the Native people. This process hasn't been totally accommodated but I believe the process will eventually lead to that in the longer term.

Why I say that is I believe that, especially Indian people, they view the Federal Government, which has exclusive jurisdiction of In dian people, that they will have legislation in the future. So this process will help along in achieving that goal. When we talk about Children's Aid Society I believe the opposition members have been defending the institution. That institution has not served well for the Native children. As a matter of fact, in the Kimelman Report it stated that well over 80 percent of Native children, of the total children that were placed out of province were, I think, 80 percent.

Also of all the children replaced out of the country well over 90 percent were Native children. I think that speaks for itself that the Children's Aid Society didn't serve the Native community and I think that's one of the reasons why the Children's Aid Society at least to change the structure and put a new child welfare system into place was welcomed by Native people. I hope that through this process that it eventually will show the results of · that change. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: I think we can all agree this is a very difficult area, Mr.

Chairperson, and one which requires a great deal of concentrated effort, and a great deal of luck probably in the long-term analysis. I have two concerns which I wanted to raise at this time because I'd like to share them with members of the committee and with the Minister. I think they're areas that are worth considering. I think in one case, at least, there has been substantial progress and, if this is the case, I'd like to hear about it. The first has to do with the question of children's advocates in the apprehension process, their role and their responsibility.

I personally believe that children's advocates have a role to play in those sorts of situations - children's advocates being persons who are appointed by the courts, or perhaps even more happily and necessarily by some independent agency with a view towards assuring the best logal interests of children who are before the courts with respect to apprehension proceedings.

First of all, and there are two parts to my short presentation, I would like to know whether we are expanding funding for children's advocates and whether concept ually the gove rn ment is embracing this approach as having some relevance and some tong term viability to this problematic area? Secondly, t would like to know whether the Minister thinks it worthwhile to consider the creation of some sort of central agency, or board, that would review Children's Aid placement subsequent to apprehension proceedings taking place?

I know that there are ways this can be done and t think the treatment panel is one way this can be done on a voluntary basis.

But I'm thinking of something that would be mandated more broadly and more generally to assure that there was some sort of consistency in the treatment of children subsequent to apprehension proceedings having taken place. lt's my very general and brief experience that the standards which pertain, as between agencies and regions, differs very dramatically in Manitoba, and that resources available are often just a question of the individual knowledge and connections of a particular agency, and not part of some sort of general broader more planned approach.

So in those two respects I would like to know whether the Minister has had any concerns in this regard; whether she has any perceptions; and whether she can make us aware of any government initiatives in those two areas? HON. M. SMITH: The question of children's advocates has certainly been discussed, so has the expansion of the Ombudsman role to cover that. We have been discussing it in line with the revised act for next year and would appreciate a submission with pros and cons by the member. The judge currently can appoint a lawyer now to defend a child, he or she has that option.

We don't, at the moment, have any expanded funding allocated for that but, as I say, it is one of the items that will be reviewed under the, you know, the more extensive overhaul of The Child Welfare Act. With regard to a treatment panel. We have hired a treatment placement co-ordinator whose job it will be to monitor and oversee the more complex cases.

Also in our building of the data bank at the provincial level, that is an essential part of building a systemwide capacity to monitor and identify resources In a more systematic way, without that kind of central data collection, without access to something like that, it's very difficult to meld a lot of agencies in the field into one larger system, but we are in a developmental process on that in the developmen t of that data resource. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(2)- pass. 4.(b)

(1) Child and Family Support: Salaries; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 4.(b)

(3) Maintenance of Children; 4.(b)

(4) External Agencies - the Member for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: On either Child and Family Support or Maintenance of Children. I had given notice of the Minister on I think a couple occasions with respect to this question. lt has to do with the differential between per diems paid to day care proprietors, people who are proprietors of residential day care situations, and those conferred upon people who foster children in their homes.

The Information I have, and it may be incorrect, I received it from a constituent - not that a constituent's information is generally unreliable - but I have to admit that I haven't done any personal research, but I have made the Minister aware of this on two occasions. The Information I have is that there is a differential of some $4 per day between the two in favour of the day care proprietor; that foster placements are getting something in the region of $8

whereas the day care people residentially are getting something around $12. 00. 1824

Monda,. 11 June, 1914 I was wondering if the Minister could indicate to the committee as to whether that is correct and, if not, what is the actual situation? If it is correct, why is there a differential in favour of residential day care as against foster? HON. M.

SMITH: You've put your finger on one of the things that happens when systems develop sort of in isolation from one another, whether we're dealing with foster care where families used to take children very much as their own and have barely out-of-pocket expenses paid, to now where they have somewhat better but certainly not probably the full job worth of caring for, supervising, feeding and sheltering a child.

You have that system on one side and then you have the child day care system which again is where the public is taking over a task that was done in the home for free by the child's family. lt's developed on another pattern where all the staff are paid staff and it's a sort of eight hour-a-day service to the child. There is a differential, and what we're recommending is a gradual enrichment of the payment to foster parents, but there is no policy decision that says they should be identical.

In one we're dealing with a surrogate parent role and, you know, regular parents in a sense don't get any money for their children other than a bit of tax relief, I guess a bit of child allowance. The foster payments are considerably better than that. Again, in the day care system one salary requires the care of five children, and in foster placement we usually don't have that intensity of placement. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1) - the Memb er for Ellice. MR. B.

CORRIN: With respect to the degree and Intensity, I just want to tell the Minister, as I'm sure she is aware, that there are some people who are fostering children who have very special problems and needs. This can be essentially very problematic because it requires 24-hour-a-day service in a sense. Even if the needs are not such as to label them In some special category, it can still be very demanding. lt isn't a job that can be given up, as I'm sure the Minister is aware, after eight or nine hour s.

The other concern I have with respect to this differential is it discourages people who would otherwise be motivated to act as foster surrogate parents. I guess it's almost unfair of me even to refer to them as surrogates because I think, having assumed the burden of that responsibili ty, they're as entitled as anyone else to say that they are parents -period.

When we state the case, as we have, and I think quite rightfully, that we have to encourage people to join the system and participate more fully in the system, and a little while ago we were talking particularly about Native placement and the problems it presents. I think one of the problems that underlies that whole area is financial hardship and difficulty. I think that it would be inappropriate not to direct ourselves to the fact that we disincentive or discourage people from participating in foster care when we create a differential in favour of private enterprise.

You know, it's something I have not understood and have grappled with. it's a rule which has been made, and I'm sure there are many good reasons for it, and it certainly encourages many people to earn an extra few dollars and it certainly encourages many people to be able to go out into the work force or seek retraining. I'm talking about the differential in favour of day care, and these are all laudable.

I'm not suggesting that we withdraw any of that sustaining funding, but I can't understand why government can't provide grants at least of an equivalent nature as a matter of priority to people who wish to foster children. I know this Is a complaint 1 have received from people in this position, and quite frankly they're not particularly well-endowed financially, they're working people. The husband in that family works in a meat-packin g plant and the wife is handicapped herself and the child in question has a slight handicap.

I would encourage the Minister and all members because the vicissitudes of politics are such that we all participate in the game I think equally. I encourage all members to give consideration to this problem and consider whether it is in the best interest. I say this because if per diem funding is raised for some thing like this, there will be somebody who will stand up and ask why the deficit went up a few points. There are always two sides to every equation; there will be somebody who will rise a:1d complain about that deficit increasing a few points.

So what I'm saying Is, I would appreciate occasionally, and I think we all would, if we could all mutually understand and accept that in certain circumstances perhaps the deficit really does have to increase a few points in order to effect social progress and more equity. HON. M. SMITH: Just to lay on the table the kind of special rates that do exist now, we have what we call a Special Rate Foster Care Program because we do recognize that some of the youngsters that foster parents are asked to care for do present special extra needs.

An agency can allocate up to $20 extra per day which is quite extensive compared to most other funding. A director can allocate up to $30 and I can, as Minister, go beyond that if we consider it appropriate. We have at present 276 children who are on a flexible special rate care. If you would care to give us the name of the particular family, we would be glad to look into it. We've also put an additional $250,000 into the budget for foster parents, and some monies to help recruit foster parents because we, too, recognize that they deserve a better financial return for the fine work that they do.

But I think it Is unfair to compare what we're doing with special rate foster care with somehow supporting a profit-making day care. In fact, our policy is not to subsidize profit-making day care other than some of the ones which were in operation when the program went in, so it's really not quite a fair comparison on that scale. But again these disparities between programs, we can close the gap over time, but it's not the kind of thing that you can accomplish In one or two years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: I wonder if the Mi nister has a statement to make on this particular item of $44 million. They usually start off with an opening statement. 1825

Monday. 11 June, 1984 HON. M. SMITH: This is the mixture of all the services that are monitored or provided at the centre. We have a directorate staff and a treatment panel, who of course are overseeing the kind of service that is offered. We have the management information system that we're devel oping. We're strengthening the Foster Care Recruitment Program and Communi ty Awareness Program in child abuse and family violence. We have put in some extra monies to cover the transitional costs incurred in regionalization. We pay maintenance of children via per diem rates to private agencies that offer child care.

There are the four Children's Aid Societies and Jewish Child and Family Service in Winnipeg. We also have the societies in Eastman, Westman and Central. Where there's no private agency, we provide the services directly by the department in lnterlake, Parklands, Norman and Thompson as well as the southeast area of Eastman and the Assiniboia and Charleswood areas of Winnipeg region. That will shift with the new Winnipeg system. Care and maintenance of children is provided in institutions, in foster homes and groups homes which are operated privately or by agencies.

We also fund some Big Brother, Big Sister type volunteer programs and some probati on-related services. Again, I'd be glad to give any more detail that's requested. MR. A. BROWN : I notice that there's substantial increase in Salaries. What would the Minister contribute that to? HON. M. SMITH: There has been an increase of four in the Central directorate staff. One clerical, one -the earlier mentioned co-ordinator of the placement panel and a co-ordinator of native resources and an executive director in the program area. MR. A.

BROWN: Is this the group that also does the planning or is there planning involved in any of the other items under this area? HON. M. SMITH: There's an overall research and planning group for the department, but the more detailed planning that's been going on, particularly for the child and family service changes in Winnipeg, has been contracted out to the Social Planning Council. They've been -in consultation with people in the field -doing a great deal of the planning for the transition. MR. A.

BROWN: Would that figure appear under another appropriation or could I ask how much are we paying the Social Planning Council? HON. M. SMITH: For the total services that they've been providing throughout the regionalization they are getting in the neighbourhood of $95,000.00. That involves some training and the preparation of the planning manual, recruitment of membership for the new agencies, supervision of the election processes. They have a computerized critical path system that they are supervising for us. MR. A.

BROWN: Again, I don't know under which appropriation this would come, but I understand that there is a total of approximately $500,000 being spent on planning in this total appropriation. Would that be about correct? HON. M. SMITH: I'll have to ask staff to do a little adding up. We had four term positions whose two years are about to conclude who were assisting in the overall planning, but their positions disappear and then the imp lementation planning is being done by Social Planning Council on contract. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, maybe we could have that figure a little later on if they have finished totalling it. I'm ready to move onto the next item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(1)-p ass. 4.(b)(2) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Again, there's a huge increase in Other Expenditures. Would this be due mainly to establishing the six areas in Winnipeg? ' HON. M. SMITH: The comp uterized management information system accounts for 200,000.

Again, that's something that should have been done whether we were converting to a new system or not, but of course it's going to enable the new system to have that central co-ordination that it requires. The foster care recruitment and community awareness in child abuse and family violence account for another 11 8.7. These are program areas where the level of need, I guess, has only relatively recently come to popular awareness and we feel it's an extremely important area to do public education and preventive programs in. Then, there's the $366,000 to cover transitional costs incurred in regionalization. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(2)- pass. 4.(b)(3) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister mentioned that there were three levels of care while the children were under the charge of the Children's Aid Society, namely; institutions, foster homes and group homes. I wonder, would the Minister be able to give me a breakdown as to how these work out? How many Institutions, how many foster homes, how many group homes? HON. M. SMITH: I don't know that I'd call them levels of care exactly. We usually use levels to refer to severity of need. These are different modes of care, I guess you could say.

In terms of numb ers, the societies -I've already named the ones there. The institutions - I can either give you the names of the institutions or I can give you the numb ers of children in the different kinds of care. MR. A. BROWN: That would be fine. HON. M. SMITH: Regular rate foster home, 1, 168; special rate foster home, 276; private group home, 217 ; agency group home, 120; private institutions in Manitoba, 142; private institutions out of province, 6; and other, 294; for a total of 2,223. 1826

Mondllr. 11 June, 1184 I think it might be instructive if I gave the figures for last year so you could see some of trends in the placement. The regular rate foster home is 1,1 13, so it's gone up 55; special rate foster home was 239, so it's gone up by 37; private group home was 222, so it's down by 5; agency group home was 200, it's down to 120. So those two constitute quite a shift of service out of the group homes and into the foster homes. Private institutions in Manitoba, it was 15 0, now 142; private institutions out of province was 20 and now 6; other arrangements, it was 261 and now 294.

The total last year, the total youngsters in care, were 2,205, this year 2,223. Both those figures are down from the num bers in 1980 and 198 1, generally because we're hitting a slightly smaller child population and also because we're working hard to keep as many children out of formal care. There is also a reduction in the numb ers of children being placed for adoption from 1977 when there was 548; in'83 there's 250. That's generally a result of fewer children being surrendered voluntarily by parents for adoption. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, E. Harper: The Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: How many are on the waiting list at the present time that would be suitable for adoption? HON. M. SMITH: We really �on't have a precise number because I guess the state of permanency planning, as I said earlier, it's something we're trying to bring in and ensure happens within a set framework, but we have inherited a system where that was not in place and so there are many older youngsters who you could still argue an adoption would be desirable. In fact, priority is being given to the younger children, so we don't have an exact figure on that question.

We could try to get an approximate numb er for you by tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: The Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: There's a reduction in money in this particular area, I see that there's not much of a reduction as far as children are concerned. Can the Minister explain why we're going to spend about $1. 5 less this year than we did last year? HON. M. SMITH: Basically, we're trying to cut back on the maintenance of children in places away from their homes and shift more service to children in their homes. I think that's the simpliest explanation.

There's not a huge shift but that does account for what shift there is. We have been closing group homes. As I say, we mentioned that we aren't finding them as effective for children under 12 particularly and there's been some closing, also, of group homes for the older children, but it's a gradual process and we don't envision closing all of those. MR. A.

BROWN: Would the major portion then, of these children who are remaining In their homes, would they be children where child abuse was suspected and things were tried to work out with the parents, rather than placing them in some kind of a foster home, group home or whatever? HON. M. SMITH: Where there's a risk of severe abuse we've strengthened, through our abuse guidelines, the instructions to the field to move in and deal directly with that situation.

We do find, and the people who work most professionally with the child abuse, the people at the Health Sciences Centre, are starting in analysing their success in treating children and the whole family to select out which families they seem to have most success with and also identifying the ones where it's extremely difficult to turn things around.

So their ability to give us good advice on treatment and sort of recovery by the parents is improving and, by the same token, that means some children are able to go back and live with the family, but not without fairly extensive treatment for all mem bers of the family. MR. A. BROWN: Are there frequent incidents where these children have been placed back in their homes or left in their homes where these cases of abuse have again appeared? There·i: be some cases, but is there a substantial numb er? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, no it's not an epidemic or anything but, again, I guess when you're dealing with human beings you have to steer a course between thinking they will never change and being naive about whether or not they have in fact changed. lt's an area where there are new techni ques developing, of people working with families, as with the wife battering. There's a lot of success with men's groups that get together and help men think through their attitudes and their emotional reactions to enable them to try to break a certain line of behaviour.

But these, in any field of human behaviour, change is slow and it doesn't always occur. So it's a field that requires a great deal of judgm ent and carefulness. I think the immediate response, the doubling up of extra resources and early warning systems are all important things to do. I think, in the long run, the education of the public to where abuse and neglect of any sort is directed towards a child, is just intolerable is our best hope of preventive approach. I can't help but identify some of the concerns we have.

At the same time as we're becoming more knowledgeable about child abuse and more committed to treating it, we're seeing a great increase in violence directed toward children in public media. lt's a great concern to us because I guess everyone likes to believe in freedom of the press and freedom of expression, but we don't know the extent to which that is a contributing factor to the great amount of child abuse we're seeing. What we really don't know is whether we're identifying finally something that's always gone on, or whether there is, in fact, an increase in that type of behaviour.

We do know that stress seems to be a contributing factor and that can be any kind of economic or cultural change stress. So we have some understanding, but it's certainly not an area where we can be confident that we know all that we need to know. 1827

Monday, 11 June, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: Has the member finished on this line of questioning? Does the Member for Ellice want to be recognized? The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: This is a particular area of concern to all of us. I realize the difficulty that the Minister has in determining as to when a child should be taken away from the parents or when it should be left with the parents.

However, I would like to know, what is the guideline that is set down by the Minister if a family has been found to be guilty of child abuse and the child is left with the family after considerable counselling or whatever but then the child abuse again continues? I would like to know what kind of monitoring is going on, and what kind of guidelines does the Minister have, at what stage of the game would you take the child from his home? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, the guidelines outline a process to be followed where abuse and neglect is suspected or where there is evidence. lt's the team approach whereby medical people, psychologists, social workers, in some cases the police, pool their efforts.

One - to give immediate protection and treatment to the child and psychological treatment too, and then secondly - in some cases of course it's a criminal offence and something has to be done there, but short of that, move in to work with the family to see whether it's a case of having to separate an offending parent from the situation; whether it's a case of getting special treatment for one or the other but leaving the family intact; whether it's parenting skills, or support systems, or monitoring systems. There's a whole range from very slight intervention to extreme intervention in removing the child.

The protection of the child is the dominant concern throughout and that's certainly at the top of the guideline as far as any direction that I give, or in fact the guidelines were jointly released under the Department of Education, the Attorney-General, and my department. Now the question of treatment and returning children is probably the most difficult, and we are keeping very accurate data, trying to learn so that judgment made by that team is as close to perfect as any human group can achieve. Again, it's probably a case where community vigilance is going to be required as well.

Perhaps that's another element in a more decentralized smaller agency type service. What we're hoping is that we can tie into the local networks that. do exist in a commu nity, so that more people are on the lookout for a child's welfare, much like Block Pare nt, or Neighbourhood Watch has developed in the corrections field, or at least the public safety field. The more people who treat the children in the community as a community responsibility, and would report anything suspicious or whatever, the more likelihood we have of containing and preventing child abuse.

You know, it's a very serious issue to remove a child from a family, and to remove a child permanently from a family, and we believe we have to do what we can to prevent that final separation. But as I say there are judgments that have to be made and the only thing we can do is to try to put the most trained and sort of multi-disciplinary teams together to make that kind of judgment. MR. A. BROWN: I realize, Mr. Chairman, that it is a serious thing to take a child away from its family, it's a very serious thing. However, I've been at the Children's Hospital when some of these children have been brought in.

I remember one child very well that the mother had, in order to dicipline it, had set it in a pail of boiling water. I saw another child coming into the Children's Aid Society that was beaten up so bad that one eye was out of the socket, and it was just absolutely bruised and battered. Now I have absolutely no sympathy for people such as that. lt seems to me that there is a time when those children must be removed in order to protect the children. Surely, the Minister must have some kind of guideline at what time does this happen? HON. M.

SMITH: I'll see that the member gets another copy of our child abuse guidelines which do provide the outline for the program. We're viewed as having one of the best anti-child abuse programs in North America. lt must never be considered, because we talk about the need for family support and preventive programs, that we're willing to tolerate child abuse and leave a child in a family - that's the furthest from our minds.

We believe that the combination of a multi disciplinary committee, a parent aid service, whereby a trained person can actually move in and stay with the family for a period of time and assist in some of the parenting skills is one of the pioneer type programs that can help. But I agree with the member - there can be no halfway measures when it comes to protecting a child. But 1 would ask him if he has any better way to guide us between the extreme positions of never removing a child or always removing a child. lt's a judgment call and it's one that we're doing our very best to carry out as well as we can.

Again the public education so that violence against children will not be tolerated is, I think, one of the most important programs that we must all endorse. MR. B. CORRIN: I think this would be an appropr iate time although I'll be guided if this is not the consensus opinion of the committee or you, Mr. Chairperson, to address something that I've regarded as problematic for as long as I've been actively involved in politics - being the question of the permit - the system we have today authorizing the location of group homes for children.

We were talking here about foster care, and other sorts of care situations, and this to me has been a particularly problematic area because over the years I have been a representative in a locale in the city where there is a fairly heavy network, a fairly dense pattern of these types of group situations. When I was on City Council I made a practice to do whatever I could to support these applications when they were made.

I for one believe that in circumstances where there is appropriate control by the authorities, and particularly the provincial authorities, that group homes do not pose a security risk to ordinary neighbourhoods. However, there are many people who 1828

MondaJi 11 June, 1984 disagree with that particular position, and quite candidly and bluntly I think they're wrong. I have for years seen the problems that have arisen as a result of that sort of strident determined opposition. What has happened in the City of Winnipeg is that there is an ever-increasing concentration of these sorts of situations in areas where the resources are already stretched, particularly in the centre of the city. The proprietors and trustees of these homes very often of their own volition would prefer to locate in other communities.

They often talk about trying to find situations that closely parallel normal community life, and in their search to do so they often express a desire to locate their residences in commun ities which are not currently appropriately zoned for their location. I think we're all familiar with the consequences of these types of applications. There was recently one in River Heights that failed because the local standard, as interpreted by certain prominent people in the commun ity, apparently rejected this sort of residential situation.

I would like to myself propose that the government enact legislation that prohibits the City of Winnipeg from discriminating as between regions when they consider applications for this sort of home. I personally believe that this should not be a question of community preference but of a question of broader community need and individual and social need. I don't think that individuals should be allowed to make determinations as to where children live on the basis of whether or not local neighbours regard the placement of these residences as an intrusion to the community standard.

I think that government has a responsibility to maintain standards general ly, and government has a responsibility to assure local residents that any such places that are app roved and licensed will be maintained according to the best standards and in a fairly normative way. Having said that, I have to confess I'd like to know whether the Minister approves of the present system. As individuals in the Legislature, I would like to know whether we're on the same wave length or whether we disagree; I'll certainly respect the Minister's judgm ent If she's unsure whether she disag rees.

I would recommend that this be the subject of serious study and consideration because it is a very real problem. I have been approached by people who are committed to the placement of these sorts of children and the establishment of these sorts of residences, and they will tell you, In a plaintiff sort of tone of voice, how difficult it is to pass through the political shoals that the present zoning regulations entail in this sort of applic ation. lt is an extremely oner ous, difficult, convoluted byzantine path that one has to process through. HON. A. ANSTETT: That really sounds bad. MR. B.

CORRIN: lt is, almost as difficult as it was to get elected in Springfield last time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(3). MR. B. CORRIN: I would like to know, and I say, I allow for differences. I think it's one of those complex questions that we simply have to address as legislators, and we cannot pass onto the municipal level any longer because the decision Invariably will be no. We now have a situation where even in areas such as the centre of the city they're saying no. They're starting to find small technical details in the zoning by-laws.

If there isn't strict compliance, local councillors and local citizenry are saying, no, go elsewhere. So the reality is that the kids and the people who are concerned about this area are getting between a very hard rock and another hard place. I think we've got to do something here; it's time to grapple with this dilemma. MR. CHAIRMAN: The right to free expression is the breath of life of parliamentary institutions, including this committee. The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, I agree with the statement of the problem.

I don't know that there is only a legislative solution. it's true that group homes have concentrated in the older ·n eighbourhoods where there are larger homes available at lower cost and where up until recently the local communities did not resist the zoning. What we have done, one on the reglonalization, the group homes will by the nature of that service In a sense be dispersed throughout the areas of the city.

But we have been working co-operat.vely with the city fathers and mothers, and reviewing the zoning because they acknowledge, too, that it hasn't served the purposes for which it's designed all that well. They are looking for a way to disperse homes throughout the city and we are still in an active dialogue In terms of how best to achieve that. They agree with us that we must examine the capacity of commun ities to service group homes and therefore none of us wish to concentrate too many in one area. I think that is what happened in the downtown area.

Foster homes, or homes where there are fewer than four child ren, don't come under any zoning requir ements, so some of the problem Is being dispersed a bit by the fact that we're making more placements in the foster home setting and not in the group home. Otherwise I think the regionalization plus the negotiation with the city should produce the change we want. If it doesn't we would be willing to look at legislation, but I would hope, as a last resort.

I think it's an area where there is a degree of ignorance and I think when you talk back and forth a little and give people a chance to get used to an idea that usually you do break down some of those barriers. As I mentioned earlier tonight, the home that was rejected on Jubilee Avenue was later accepted in East Klldonan, and I'm very happy to say that I think the second or third level appeal on the Oxford Street home was eventually reversed and that home is now going ahead. MR CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(3) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a couple of questions on child abuse.

Could the Minister indicate how many Instances that children have been abused a second time after being returned to the home? HON. M. SMITH: We will check to see how much detail there is. This is a fairly recently evolving field and the 1829

Monday. 11 June, 1984 Health Sciences Centre has been doing a great deal of data collection and analysis for us. We' ll see if there is anything that specific available as yet. The one case that was being talked about earlier was more a neglect than an abuse case, although that's maybe splitting hairs when you're dealing with the well-being of a youngster. I know that the Health Sciences Centre have been very alert to any repeat cases because of cou rse that's, from their professional point of view, they also would like to be able to catch any serious case and put in place remedial action.

I will undertake to see if they have any statistics on that. I don't know them at the moment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the department not have any statistics as far as the social workers are concerned? The other question I guess I had is: what exactly are the support services that have been given to families? If the Minister has answered this earlier, don't hesitate to say, but what support services are there for the families in child abuse cases to leave the childr en in the home? HON. M.

SMITH: There is a range, and they should develop further through the new agency thrust, but a parent aide who can be put right in the family to assist with the youngster and also monitor the care; a homemaker who can be placed in to help relieve some of the pressure, but also act as supervisor and share some of the load of child care; day care placement where a youngster is seen every day or five days of the week and day care workers are particularly tuned in to watching for any sign of abuse or neglect and reporting it; there's family counselling and individual counselling available and temporary foster placement of a child while that type of counsel ling might go on or until a more permanent plan is worked out.

There's also a lot of co-opera tion with the schools, because probably most of the identification of new cases of child abuse, the greatest increase, has come through the schools mainly as a result of the public awareness type programs that are being done. You're probably familiar with the little play that's been going around - Feeling Ye s, Feeling No - that helps childr en develop a vocabulary to describe their feelings and suggest to them what they can do if they're upset about something like that.

That it's okay to go and talk to a teacher and a counsel lor. lt gives them a way of handling it that wasn't there before. All these community groups are drawn into the system. Of co.urse, there is the abuse centre itself and probably the foremost professionals in the countr y, people leading the field in developing a commun ity approach, are at our own Health Sciences Centre Abuse Unit. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are all these services that the Minister was mentioning, Mr. Chairman, are they in place now? HON. M.

SMITH: Ye s, but the quantity of them needs expansion, so they can be accessed and an abused child would get a high priority for this type of service, but we want to expand all that type of service throughout the system. lt will be slow, but any youngster identified in a child abuse way would receive these services on a high priority base. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I guess I'm a little confused here. I was under the impression that we're talking about abused children. Is the Minister telling me that there's different degrees of abuse? Is this what we're talking about? What would be the difference? HON. M.

SMITH: We ll, there would be things relating specifically to age of child, the severity of the abuse or neglect, therefore the risk that the child would have. Whether there is a stable parent in the sett ings or whether it's a single parent who's abusive or two parents who are abusive. Probably a whole string of factors. Whether the people have had a previous example of erratic behaviour of some sort. Perhaps the child's nutritional state. Physical strength. Emotional security. There are many, many factors that would be taken into acc ount. There's many types of abuse as well.

From straight physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional neglect or abuse. So, it's a field that's very complex. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Then I guess I have to ask who decides on the priority of the child to get, or the family, to get help in the cases of abuse? HON. M. SMITH: There is a multi-disciplina ry team which reviews the situation and makes the decision. They would give higher priority to the younger child and the range of abuse, in terms of active abuse, would range from sort of harsh discipline that might be just bordering on the acceptable to genuinely life threat ening abuse.

So, things that come more at the end of the life threatening part of the spectrum would receive an automatic higher priority. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Was this the kind of judgment that was made, say on an older child in the incest case that took place in the Eastern Children's Aid Society? HON. M. SMITH: I think the case that you're alluding to - there was not a clear identification of abuse in the early stages and it only emerged sort of in retrospect.

There was a question as to whether a staff person had missed a verbal sign that a youngster had given, but if you take yourself back three or four years, the awareness of the professio nals in the field, even of the type of abuse and extent of it with children, was much less. I guess that's one of the hard things to realize now, when you've become aware of the types of abuse that go on with children.

I know I for one have been shocked at seeing things that are done to little youngsters that I hadn't even imagined and I've had some training in the field, so I think what we're dealing with is the field where professio nals need upgrading and awareness building and special skill development. lt's a shocking field, but as I say we're one of the first provinc es to develop guidelines to deal in a systematic way with it, but I think we'll see other provinces following suit. We 're trying to develop as systematic an approach a we can. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have a question about child abuse in the school. 1830

lll onda,; 11 June, 1884 If it is reported and the social worker, or however it works, comes back with a report that there is no abuse, and yet the teacher is fairly certain there is, what type of appeal process would there be for that? HON. M. SMITH: The process Is that it goes again to a multi-dis ciplinary commi ttee and in some cases the police are Involved, so it would be a joint decision. it wouldn't be one person making a decicslon.

Now, the teacher could always appeal again, if a commit tee said, "No," and the teacher continued to be suspicious, they could always move up the system up to the child welfare director or to the local Children's Aid Agency. They could, I suppose, phone me. The new guidelines, one of the significant things they do Is that people were often reluctant of reporting before because, if they couldn't prove it In court, they felt they might be guilty of liabllng someone.

What we've done through the guidelines Is to say tha t the onus is on the individual teacher, professional, anyone in contact with the child ren, if they suspect that there might be child abuse, the onus is on them to report, then any obligation of proving it is sort of removed. They would still be requi red of course to give their evidence, but it's to gi ve the worker some protection, as it were, in the carrying out of their dutie s so that they're not exposed unfairly to requirements of proof beyond reasonable doubt or whatever they used to think they had to have.

That was a great deterrent to people reporting. So the early warning system, as it were, wasn't operative. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just one final question. Will the department be keeping records on children that have been apprehended and children that have been abused in a home more than once? HON. M. SMITH: it's been the practice to keep that kind of record since 19 77. Now, again, one of the other sides of it Is that we may get some cases reported that are suspected but can't be substantiated.

There's some people concerned, what if a case is reported and is found to be a false alarm. I guess we weighed the risk of that and potential embarrassment to someone, over against the protection of the child and felt that the protection of the child had to come first. Back in the case of the teacher who had reported. You did ask whether, if they weren't satisfied, they could go further and I said, yes, they could. But the other situation, if a decision is made, finding by the team that the cases referred to were encol.'raging them to report back to the person who initially reported whatever they find.

So, I'm trying to keep the communication open. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If they don't choose to go that route they can go another route though can they? MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(3)-p ass; 4.(b)( 4) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: How many External Agencies are there? HON. M.

SMITH: The Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg and its eventual eastern, central and western; Jewish Child and Family; then we also fund the Foster Parents' Association; the Child Protection Centre and Parent Aid Program at Health Sciences Centre; the City of Winnipeg Rossbrook House; Native Family Service of Winnipeg; and a small grant to the Manitoba Metis Federation. MR. A. BROWN: Could the Minister tell me how much funding the Native Family Services Is getting this year; in other words, has there been an increase over the funding that they received last year? HON. M.

SMITH: They received just a partial grant last year but they're receiving $11 0,400 which, had they received the whole year's grant last year, that was the level it would have been at but, in fact, they just received a partial year grant; $60,000 last year. MR. A. BROWN: Between eastern, western and central, is the caseload fairly even or does one of them have a much larger caseload than the other? HON. M. SMITH: it's si.nilar. MR. A. BROWN: Well the funding would be almost equal between all three of them. HON. M SMITH: lt varies In terms of the actual mix of programs that they have. MR. A.

BROWN: Could I have the amount of funding for each one of them, if you add the figur es? HON. M. SMITH: Oh, I'm sorry. Children's Aid of central $1, 316 ,800; eastern $1 ,546,200; western $1 ,847,1()0; Children's Aid of Winnipeg $6,869,800.00. Do you want the foster parents? MR. A. BROWN: Yes. HON. M. SMITH: Foster parents 38,200; Health Sciences Centre $449,400 - that's quite an increase over last year at 285, 700; Rossbrook House 51 ,500 - I've already given the Native Family Service at 11 0,400; and the Manitoba Metis Federation $43,300.00. MR. A.

BROWN: Why would there be such an increase at the Health Sciences Centre? HON. M. SMITH: . That is the centre of our child protection activi ty. They've been pi oneer ing the treatment of abused children and they've also been doing some training of other people in the field. They've also acquir ed a fair bit of federal funding for their parent aid program. They increasingly would like to act as a resource that can train other people to do the kind of counselling and support that they do because they realize that they can't meet all the needs and they certainly can't reach out all over the province.

So, they've indicated to us they'd like to spend more time in training other people, other medical people and social work people, to carry out the Child Abuse Program. 1831

Mondar, 11 June, 1184 MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(4)- pass. I suppose this is the right time for the commit tee members to take care of themselves also and not abuse their health. Time to rise up. HON. M. SMITH: Touche. I'll second that. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: Commit tee, come to order. We are hearing the Estimate of the Department of Health, on Page 90, in the Department of Sports. Is there an opening statement by the Minister? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)(1) , Salaries-pass - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Not quite so quickly, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to ask the Minister if he could outline for members of the commit tee the proposal that the department has for the Manitoba Sports Federation? I understand that the last agreement that was signed by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye on behalf of the government was the four-year proposal and tha t it is to run out, and that he and his department have offered the Sports Federation something in the way of a new package. Could he outline to me, in fairly brief terms, how it's expected to be? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've looked at it.

We left that in abeyance until the lottery situation was decided on. As you know the TCI, as it was known, does not exist anymore. The first agreement that probably we will sign with the Sports Federation will be as an umbrella group having the responsibility of disbursing the lottery revenue tha t should go to sports. They've been quite busy. We've been very busy with the lotte ry, and they've been busy also in trying to organize that. Then the other one I don't expect much trouble. I think it'll be something like they had before, there might be some change.

I want to make sure that certain groups remain as members of the Sports Federa tion, I can' t di ctate to the Spor ts Federation, but at least the Sports Administration Centre, and I want to discuss with them the situation of the Special Olympics. I must say tha t I was quite impressed Saturday when I attended the closing banquet of the Special Olympics and I think that society has reached a point now that you don't need to have any different groups that are outside of sports; sports is sports.

I would hope tha t someday we will have, as I mentioned while I was a member of the opposition, that all that should go under sports, not through health, or mentally retarded, or the gerontologist. I think that the true amateur sport is providing recreat ion and sports to people of all ages and all conditions and I think that we are getting much closer to that.

As I noticed at the time it was quite ironic that a year of Olympic problems where, I think, the whole spirit of the Olympics seemed to be lost, and we have to be reminded by a group of unassuming volunteers, and special athletes, who demonstrated really what true amateur sports is. I would hope that will form part of the Manitoba Sports Federation. I cannot go in detail at this time, especially because si nce it hasn't been discus sed with the Sports Federation as yet. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, that makes quite a difference when we're discussing these Estimates because one of the largest sports bodies in the province is the Sports Federation, and as the Minister has said, it's difficult for him to tell me exactly what they'r e going to do with the Sports Federation because it hasn't been decided upon. The Sports Federation hasn't finalized an agreement with the government because the other arm of the sports department is the lotteries and . . . and there are a number of community groups that share in lottery funds. The actual percentages and the breakdowns haven't been formulated as of yet.

Might I ask the Minister, in his opinion - and I was involved with the Sports Federation back in 19 70 when it was in its early stages, in my opinion, the 'sports Federation grew out of the Pan Am Games that we had in Winnipeg when many sports bodies came together to make the Pan Am Games in 1967 a success and they seemed to get along fairly well and an organization called the Sports Federation was founded from that - does the Minister feel that the Sports Federation is the route to go, and that a body like the Sports Federation, that has so many sports working through them, is the route that we should go as opposed to the opposite would be?

Does every group deal through a government bureaucracy and a government department? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think that my views on that are well known. My answer is clear. First of all, I would like to make a correction. lt might be that Pan Am Games had something to do with it, but the Sports Federation grew mostly out of the Minister's Advisory Committee on Fitness and Amateur Sports. That's where the recommendation came in. lt was quite awhile after the Pan Am Games. The thought of setting up this commit tee might have been suggested during the games.

But, anyway, that's not the most important thing. I always said that, if they didn't have a Sports Federat ion, they'd have to start one. I think the confidence that we've shown in the Sports Federation in asking them and starting to work with them first before any other um brella gr oup, I think tha t demonstrates that we feel there should be a sports administration, and that they should be involved in sports. I don't think that I have to explain that or to give my views any more than that because I've been repeating that for years now. The relationship with the Sports Federation is good.

I think that the present president has been very active, very helpful, and we've worked closely with them so far and we expect to keep on. MR. W. STEEN: I'm glad to hear the Minister's reply . I haven't, as he well knows, been charged with the responsibility in the opposition of sport. In the past, my colleague from La Verendrye has at times and so has the Member for Fort Garry at times been charged 1832

Monday, 11 June, 1814 with that responsibility. But I would think that the Minister, plus the three of us from this side of the House, would all be strong supporters of such a body as the Sports Federation to carry out that service for the 70- odd sports that are memb ers of the Sports Federation. Hopefully the Min ister will, in the near future, be in a position to enter into a new financial agreement with the Sports Federation.

I would hope that since in the past they were able to get a commitme nt from government for a period of something like four years, that the Minister would have the infl uence with his colleagues that he could offer them a similar package so that they know where they stand for more than a year, from one year to another year and that they would be offered a working arrangement and a financial arrangement from government and through government for better than one year. Something like was offered to them in the past for four years.

If the lotteries money is increased and the formula is changed to some extent, I would hope that the Mi nister could continue the 1. 4 million or whatever the exact figure is that is used for the administration of the Sports Federation and perhaps go on into another area that I don't think a sport in Manitoba has had the attention paid to it in the past and that is for the so called elite athlete where we train and through Sports Federation and lottery monies that we can assist young athletes that are perhaps of capabilities, or show the capabilities that they be might Olympic or national champions.

The one that comes to my mind is the young girl from Minnedosa that was an excellent figure skater a few years ago - still is an excellent figure skater -and yet in the Town of Minnedosa, and many villages and smaller towns in Manitoba, you just don't have the coaching skills. Some of these athletes have to leave home and it's very expensive for their families or members in the community

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-3-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 3rd hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c0aba9c25cbf954dad0dfbc223c7584dc91c1d3

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