Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 3 (27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MMHTOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 4th, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiying Petitions Presenting Reports by standing and Special Committees No tices of Motion Intr oduction of Bills Before the Orders of the Day I would like to welcome the Grade VIII students of St. Mary's School, 35 in number, accompanied by their teacher the Reverend Sheila Margaret. This school is situated in the electoral division of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre.

We wish to extend to the students and their teacher our best wishes and trust that they will en joy and benefit from their visit with us. We hope that what they see here this afternoon will be of help to them in their studies and that they will visit us soon again. Orders of the Day. HONOURABLE GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to present the report of the Depart ment of Industry and Commerce and the Manitoba Development Authority for the period ending March 31st, 1962.

HONOURABLE STERLING LYON (Minister. of Public Utilities) (Fort Garry}: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with I should like to lay on the table of the House the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1962 (sufficient copies of this report will be available for distribution immediately to mem bers of the Chamber); the 11th Annual Report for the year ended March 31st 1962 of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board (similarly copies for each of the members will be distributed shortly); and finally, the Manitoba Telephone System Progress Report for the year 1962; and again, copies will be available for all members of the House.

MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Turtle Moun tain. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, although the other day in the moment of your election we did have some certain words to say about the procedure that was being followed, I know that you fully understand when I rise today and con gratulate you on your appointment to this office that I do so sincerely when considering the per son involved.

Our differences were purely differences of principle and I'm happy to congratulate you as the first lady to occupy this important post in our assembly. I wish you well in your work over the next few years here with us. I should also like to congratulate the mover and the seconder to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. I think both of them, new members here in the House, did a very good job -- and undoubtedly we will hear a great deal more from them as our debates proceed -- and that they will make valuable contributions to the good business of the Province of Mani toba.

I must also on this occasion, Madam Speaker, congratulate the government on its re election. I must admit that I did nothing to assist them in that particular course, and did all I could to do the reverse. I'm not overly unhappy at the results insofar as we are concerned and I congratulate them heartily on their success at the polls. During the next four or five years that we'll be here together I intend to have vigorous opposition to my honourable friends and yet to work with them for the welfare of the Province of Manitoba. I should like as well to congratulate the new members who have joined us this year.

I think it's rather one of those occasions when the new House has lesser of new members than it has in the past -- the turnover was not as great -- but I'm glad to see the additions to the House and I know that they will again, as I said about the mover and the seconder, make worthwhile contributions to good government in our province. We have as well with us this year some new ministers and we certainly look forward to March 4th, 1963 Page 17

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) •••• • working with them when we come along to the period of estimates. I trust that the time that they have had to prepare for their particular department will not mean that we simply have to skip over them. However, I wish them well in their new functions; I know both the honourable gentlemen well personally and I am sure that they will do credit to the posts that they have undertaken.

Of course, as there are gains in the election, Madam Speaker, there are also some los ses and in our own group we have lost the previous member for Turtle Mountain who I think had made a very worthwhile contribution to the work of this House. He was a man with a great deal of municipal experience and we are sorry to have him lose and leave our group. Another loss is that of my colleague who sat on my right last year, the previous member for Carillon con stituency.

He was a veteran of many years in this House; a man who had made a great contri bution in various posts; a man who had done a great deal, I believe, for better understanding in the Province of Manitoba and for a better province. He chose not to run again in this elec tion. I accepted that choice of his. I'm only sorry that we will not have his experience and background to work with us during the, course of this Session. One of those members who was returned on our side however, Madam Speaker, I believe deserves special mention, and I'm speaking of my colleague to my right, the Member for Lakeside.

I think it's notable in the history of this House that this member during the course of 1962 ·completed 40 years of service in the Legislature of Manitoba. This I am sure is an unequalled record. He will be with us for another session now and I'm sure for more after that again.

Je suis certain Madam la Pre'sidente que tous les Manitobains vont applaudir la decision du gouvernement de participer ii une conference qui a comme but de discuter le developpement bi-culturelle de notre pays. ll faut reconnaitre qu'en ce moment meme ou nous nous preparons pour cele'brer notre centennaire i1 y a au Canada certains gr oupes qui poussent vers la dissolu tion de cette magnifique entreprise, cette experience -l a Confederation canadienne. 11 faut reconnaltre aussi que cet effort d'etablir une nation independante ici dans la

partie nord de l'Amerique n'a pas ete facile. Elle ne sera pas plus facile dans l'avenir. Nous avons beau coup a faire. Le succes cependant n•en tient qu•a nous et certainnement la Province du Mani toba avec son passe a une raison toute particuliere d'�tre parmi les premieres provinces a aider ce developpement de l'unite Canadienne.

Je felicite le gouvernement d'agir dans ce cas et je lui souhaite bonne chance dans son entre prise. (Translation)-: I am sure, Madam Speaker, that all Manitobans will approve the govern ment's decision to participate in a Conference whose aim is to discuss the hi-cultural develop ment of our country. It must be acknowledged that at the very time when we are getting ready to celebrate our Centenary, there are certain groups, in Canada, who are working towards the dissolution of this magnificent enterprise, this experience - the Canadian Confederat ion.

It must also be recognized that the effort made to establish an independent nation here in North America was not easy. It will not be any .easier in the future. There is a lot to be done. Its success, however, depends on us and certainly the Province of Manitoba, with its history, has a particular reason to be one of the first provinces to help the development of Canadian unity. I congratulate the government on its action in this case and I wish them luck in their enterprise.

On reading the Speech from the Throne, Madam Speaker, I was pleased to see that the government has learned something from the election campaign. It has shown the very good sense to pick up some of the good ideas that we were proposing during that campaign as well as over past years here in this House. But, as the government is now claiming these proposals as its own ideas, I believe that it would only be proper to list at least some of the proposals to which we properly claim authorship on this side.

I would like to quote now from the Throne Speech itself on page two: "My Ministers be lieve that the growth and development of the beef cattle industry in Manitoba represents a very important opportunity for growth in the agricultural sector.

To assist this aim you will be asked to amend The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Act to provide for the granting of loans to beef cattle producers." Now, older members· of the House will recall that when the then Minister of Agriculture, now His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, first introduced this motion into the House, we on this side argued strongly for livestock loans,loans on the basis of herds. Since then each year in a discussion of the estimates of the Department of Agriculture my col league, the Member for St. George, has brought the matter up. He has pointed out that Page 18 March 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ••••• farming practices and low land values in many parts of the pro vince, and particularly in the Interlake, virtually excluded farmers in those areas from loans under the Act. More recently, during the course of the election campaign itself, and some days before the government spokesmen had said anything about their agricultural policy, at a meeting in Virden I clearly stated our own view on this subject and the position of our party. I'm happy to see that the government has finally adopted this course and that action will be taken at this session.

Point No. 2, a technical school in Brandon. Well, I well recall a year ago when discus sing the estimates with my honourable friend the Minister of Education, that I asked him at that time why no action had been taken to establish such an institute to serve western Manitoba. During the course of the campaign when speaking in Brandon I again recommended such a school, and I note that at last the Premier himself finaj.ly, speaking in Brandon as well, made the same promise and that it's now followed up in the Throne Speech. Increased teachers' pensions.

Last year speaking in this very same debate I urged the government to take action in this field and to cease its procrastination. I read into the records then the amazing delaying tactics of the Minister of Education. Later in the Session on the estimates we had durther debate on the matter and I again asked the government to act. Nothing had been done until the pressure of opinion apparently has now become unbearable and the government promises to do something. Grants to affiliated colleges.

Again over a-year ago in my speech in this same debate I said the following, and I quote: "Surely no one can disagree that Brandon College and the other affiliated colleges cannot conceivably continue to operate without further aid. It was a Liberal Government in this province that established the policy of giving capital grants to those colleges.

In our opinion it is more than time that the affiliated colleges were given operating grants in order that they may continue to perform the valuable services which have benefitted Manitoba in the past." After years of delay the government has finally promised to give desperately needed assistance to these colleges. On to urban renewal. Our party has been on record for some years on this subject. My colleague, the former Member from La Verendrye constituency, spoke on it many times in this House.

We have urged the government to establis_h a policy so that the municipal governments could proceed to act on this all-important social and economic problem. Last year finally the government took one step. It now appears that they are prepared to take a second step, but only after putting off action for many years. Reciprocal trucking arrangements.

Last year again during the discussion of estimates -- tbe estimates of my honourable friend the Minister of Public Utilities -- I spent a consider able amount of time trying to convince my friend that he should do something about this rather than sit on the agreements as be was doing then. I pointed out to him that his procrastination was going to cost the truckers of Manitoba, and therefore the shippers and the consumers of Manitoba, one quarter million dollars. Did my honourable friend act, Madam Speaker? Oh, no.

A whole year went by, but finally now it seems that he is prepared to take some action; but after at least a year's overdue action and certainly a substantial loss of money to tbe people of this province. Uniform time. Last year my colleague, the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, brought in a resolution recommending the establishment of uniform time in Manitoba. The government was unable to make a decision on this matter and finally they presented a weasely amendment to get themselves off the hook. Now at last some action is promised in the Speech from the Throne. Highway to Thompson.

I first spoke about this a year ago during the estimates of the Minister of Public Works, and I asked then why the government plans were to build only 18 miles when there was a gap of some 80 miles. This seemed to me to be poor planning, be cause until the gap was filled obviously there would be little use of either ends of those high ways, but no action was taken and once again now we hear in the Throne Speech, but too late as well.

However, Madam Speaker, I am pleased that the government has seen the light of day on so many of our proposals, and we in the Opposition actually are quite pleased when the govern ment accepts some of the ideas that we put forward. It's unfortunate for the Province of March 4th, 1963 Page 19

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ••••• Manitoba that they're not prepared to accept more of our ideas, but we're not giving up hope at all and we'll have a great deal more to recommend during·tbe course of this session. Now it's not our intention, Madam Speaker to be in any way obstructive either during this session or sessions to follow, and the government will find that its proposals will not meet with opposition from us just because we happen to be sitting in the Opposition. I must say, however, that we intend to subject all government proposals to watchful scrutiny.

We intend to be careful to analyse, and criticize where necessary, not only what the government proposes by way of legislation, but il.lso how the government carries out its program in practice. The government, in the Throne Speech, is proposing the establishment of a lot of boards and commissions, with a view to helping out in the economic development of the community. There's to be an Econo mic Consultative Board, and a Research Council, and a Design. Institute, and an Exports Cor poration. Now, all these agencies may be good, and useful, or they may not, depending on what they do and hew they do it.

We serve notice on the government that we intend to see that they do not become agencies of restriction, of red tape and bureaucratic inaction, but rather that they may be instruments to make effective the free initiative of our-people. . . .- ! see that the government is speaking of, and I quote: "Planning our economic path over the years ahead." Now I don't !mow to what extent the Tories of Manitoba intend to go into a planned economy.

We'll be interested to hear the explanations as to why the First Minister has suddenly become converted and now adopts language usually used by my friends to the left in committing his government to a planned economy. It was only six years ago, in fact, in 1958, that the Honourable the First Minister voted against the CCF amendment to his amendment to the motion in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, and that amendment cilled for social and economic planning.

The Tories voted unanimously against social and economic planning at that tin1e, but either their policies have changed or possibly their use of words has changed. I say this to the Honourable Premier, for a provincial government, especially, planning the economy is not nearly as important as planning the services of the government. It is ill very well for the government to set up agencies designed to plan other people's affairs, but why does the government not set about planning its own aff airs?

In my opinion this government has a great deil.l to do in getting its own house in order; in doing a better job of its own responsibilities. We'll have a lot more to say about this and will make many specific proposals during the course of this session. If the government would seriously plan its highway program, its land use pro gram, its labour program, then citizens can do some useful planning on their own. Take the highway program as an example. There can be no doubt that the proper planning and development of our highway system is crucial to the whole economic development of our pro vince.

It must be done on a long-term basis, to anticipate traffic growth and changing needs, and since the municipil.lities must plan their own programs to complement that of the government, it is essential that the plans be made public and !mown as far as possible in advance. Highways are now one of our most important public utilities and 3.11 of the utilities plan their expansions in this way. It is evident that if highway planning is not done and publicized well in advance the municipal authorities are seriously handicapped in their own planning.

For this reason we noted with regret that no mention was made in the Throne Speech of anything which v.ould indi cate that the government has come to realize the seriousness of this problem. The consequences of this indecision and inaction are most clearly shown right here in the Greater Winnipeg area. The government recognized the need for planning the development.of an inter-municipil.l highway and bridge system in the Metro area. They did this when they set up the Metropolitan Corpora tion and charged it with this responsibility.

This area has almost half of the vehicle registra tions in the province and it has probably got over half of the vehicle miles driven. Proper high way planning is absolutely crucial to over-all planning of the development of the area. Arteriil.l routes are what will shape that development. If they are planned properly they can channel the growth of housing, industrial and business areas, but only if the planning can be done on a reasonable long-term basis. It must be done on a five and a ten and a twenty-year basis. At present this kind of planning by the Metropolitan Corporation is not feasible.

It is true that the government has given some assistance, but it has been on a purely hand-to-mouth basis, with no plans and no program. This problem differs only in degree in the case of other parts of tbe province. Until the provincial government makes !mown long-range plans, the municipalities Page 20 March 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) .••• • must also operate on that hit or miss basis. I must emphasize, Madam Speaker, that proper planning will save us money. It will enable us, both the province and the municipalities, to get more value for the money spent. We on this side of the House . have made a suggestion on how this planning can be done most satisfactorily. We say that highway planning and development should be handled like any other utility and placed in the hands of a Highway Construction Board, similar in nature to the Manitoba Power Commission.

This Board should be instructed not only to plan a long-term program, free from political in terference of this government, as has been evidenced in the highway program for the past two years, but also to publicize this program well in advance so that everyone else can proceed with their own planning. What is the present situation, Madam Speaker? No one at this time knows except the Minister, let alone what are the plans for the next five years, but not even what are the plans for the next year.

We have to wait until the Minister tables, during his departmental estimates, the plans for highway construction for the next year. This govern ment has not produced a clear long-term plan of highway and arterial route construction, one of its basic responsibilities, and this is the government who's talking about, and I quote: "planning the economic paths- over the years ahead. " What about land use policy, Madam _ _ Speaker? The government has been talking a great deal about economic development in the rural areas. They have produced reports after reports.

I was in Dauphin with the Honourable the Minister of Education, where we 111 >ere handed a great report on developmEnt in northwestern Manitoba. The ministers talk about the great potential in the livestock industry and I agree with them that there is a great poten tial there, and yet in one aspect of very basic government responsibility they cannot make a decision. This government has no long term policy for crown lands.

Four and a half years ago when this government took office, they froze the sale and the long-term leases on crown lands and now four and a half years later this government is still unable to announce a long term policy. The government can talk all it likes about economic development, bu the .facts are that unless the government itself is prepared to make some basic practical and long term plans as regard land use, no progress will be made in this field. Livestock is the big industry in many of these areas.

The fact that there is not an effective land use policy as far as this industry is concerned has hampered its development for the last fou.r years. It will continue to do so until this government can give some leadership in this regard and my honourable friends can look around many of their backbenchers who represent areas with crown lands in them and they will agree, I am sure with the things I am saying here now.

Surely the govern ment can't expect the livestock farmer to carry out projects such as fencing and supply of adequate water and pasture and the improvement of their land if there's no security of tenure on the property that he's being asked to develop. I am sure that the average livestock man is interested in the various programs in the Department of Agriculture. He realizes that they could be of great assistance to him, but until such time as the government can put forward a basic plan for the long-term use of crown lands, many of them cannot take advantage of these services.

I maintain that the economic development of the livestock industry is being slowed down in this province because this government has no plan for land use. This government seems to be getting, Madam Speaker, so absorbed in the details of planning some other people's affairs, that they fail to realize that their responsibility is first to make some basic decisions of their own. The facts are that if they did this, a great deal of the detail of plan ning that they and their boards get so absorbed in, would be carried out by the people them selves.

Well to go on, Madam Speaker, to the field of labour management relations. The plan ning of government services is nowhere more important than in the field of labour managment relations. The government fulfills a vital role in bringing labour and management together so that disputes are likely to be settled peacefully instead of by strikes. Yet, government agencies here in this province are operating on the basis of labour laws that are in need of a thorough review. The events of the Brandon Packers' strike showed the ineffectiveness of the present machinery to deal with a really serious labour dispute.

Last year we pleaded with the government to set up a committee of the Legislature to go over our whole process of labour law. We asked them to take steps in the field of the construction industry. This is. March 4th, 1963 Page 21

(Mr. Molgat cont'

d) one where they finally accepted to take some action. Instead of taking the over-all review, however, the government added last year another patch to the patchwork of labour legislation, by enacting amendments to enable unions to be sued as if they were legal entities. The legis lation had to be referred to the courts for an

interpretation, but the courts themselves simply sent it back to the government. The amendments were passed in such a hurry last year they're ambiguous in their meaning and uncertain in their operation. Neither the courts nor the government knows what they mean. They do not make clear that workers are to have the same immunity from suit as members of management and co-operative enterprises, yet the Speech from the Throne has no proposal to clarify the effect of those amendments.

I want to serve notice on the Honourable the First Minister and his supporters that if they do not introduce legislation to protect workers in the same way that shareholders are protected, I will. The supervision of secret strike votes, the composition of the Manitoba Labour Board, the codification of remedies for offences against workers, research and labour management relations, are all topics that require careful review after hearing from the inter ested members of the community.

I urge the Legislature once again to appoint its Industrial Relations Committee as a standing committee so that this review can be undertaken now. Just as it is important that municipalities know the long-range plan of government with respect to highvro:ys, .just as it is important that farmers know the long-range plans of government with respect to land use, so it is important that labour unions and management know where the government is heading in the field of labour labour law. The Throne Speech mentions many subjects, Madam Speaker, but it's not enough to have them mentioned there.

The people of Manitoba want and expect action. For four full years now we've been subjected to a most effective publicity campaign by this government.

It has billed itself as a government of action while hiding behind the Metropolitan Review Commission to avoid making any decision itself on the Metro problems, while hiding behind the Royal Commission on Municipal Finance and Organization, rather than taking action to reduce the load of real estate taxes on the homeowners and the farmers, a.load which has been increased in large part as a result of the actions of this government after many promises to the contrary.

Now that the election is over and the government has secured a new mandate for four years there should be an end to indecision and procrastination and hesitation, but in many fields, some of which I've mentioned today, the Throne Speech gives no indication of a change of attitude on the part of this government.

I therefore move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the motion be amended by adding the following words: "But this House regrets that Your Honour's government has, by its indecision and procrastin ation, failed to resolve the problems which confront the people of Manitoba and therefore lacks the confidence of the House." Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood, that the debate be ad journed.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT DES JARDINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, before moving this motion, I wonder if you have any directive on this resolution. I might say that last year seeing how reluctant the members of the government were to discuss this question of -- (interjection) - if my friend is raising a point of order he should do so rather than make a speech. Madam Speaker, I'll forget about the point of order then. I would move� seconded by the Honotrable Member from Neepawa,

whereas for many years some areas of the Province of Manitoba have instituted daylight saving time for varying periods of the year while other areas of the Pro vince retain standard time, and

whereas the lack of uniform time in the Province has caused concern, inconvenience, hardship and considerable economic loss, and

whereas it has created great difficulties in school districts, and particularly in those school districts which overlap varying time zones, therefore

be it resolved that uniform time be established in the Province of Manitoba and that it be Central Standard Time for the period from the 1st Tuesday in Sep tember to 31st May inclusive and Central Daylight Time from 1st June to 1st Monday in September, inclusive. Page 22 March 4th, 1963

MADAM SPEAKER: I didn't hear who seconded the motion. MR . DESJARDINS: The Honourable Member for Neepawa. MADAM. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, seconded by the Honourable Member for Neepawa,

whereas for many years some areas of the Province -- Would the Honourable Member from St. Boniface consider withdrawing his proposed reso luti on, in view of the fact that this matter is referred to in the Throne Speech? MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, yes, this would be acceptable to us . MADAM SPEAKER: Has the Honourable Member the unanimous consent of the House to withdraw his resolution ? MR .

MOLGAT: •••••• ••••• will. bring its own motion or bill in this regard, because las t year we went through this performance on another resolution proposed by my colleague the member from Selkirk, and the government procrastinated and delayed and waited until almost the end of the Sessi.on before producing its own motion. Now if they're prepared to tell us when they're going to do this and do it soon, then I certainly will not object, but if it's going to be slo ughed off until the day before the House rises, then I do object. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Chairman, I think that honourable members should follow the rules of the House . That is the first thing that is before us , and I think Mada m Speaker is right in suggesting that this resolut ion comes under the grounds of anticipation and I don't think that our consideration of that point should be contingent upon the whim of anybody, even as important a member as that who has just spoken. So I would sug gest we should deal with the point of order on its merits.

However, I have no hesitation in answering my honourable friend's query in telling that the legislation will be brought down in good time. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : Is the legislation that is proposed practically the same as the resolut ion suggests ? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House that the next two items, which I believe are standing in the name of my honourable colleague for Inkster, be allowed to stand. MR .

ROBLIN: Mada m Speaker, that brings us to the end of our rather short order paper today, so I move, seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Education that the House do now adjourn. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Tuesday afternoon. March 4th, 1963 Page 23

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c450e3588e9bb7aa9c284969caab5e33a33cbed

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