Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 59 (27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-59

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 189 Harris Blvd. , Winnipeg 12 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man, 2 - 1177 Henderson Hwy,, Winnipeg 16 102 Handsart Blvd., Winnipeg 29 .steinbach, Man. Thompson, Man. Rathwell, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Kimberly St. , Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Teulon, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man.

Hamiota, Man. 406 - 365 Hargrave St., Winnipeg 2 142 Larchdale Crescent, Winnipeg 15 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd., Winnipeg 29 La Broquerie, Man. 1109 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Morris, Man. Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Manitou, Man, 7 Massey Drive , Portage la Prairie 435 Yale Ave. W., Transcona 25, Man. Winkler, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Roblin, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Meadow Portage, Man. 138 Dollard Blvd., St. Boniface 6, Man. Lundar, Man. 381 Guildford St., St. James, Winnipeg 12 333 St.

John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Winnipeg 8 · Room 250, Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 168 Burrin Ave. , Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, ·Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Killarney, Man. Kenton, Man. 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 412 Paris Bldg. , Winnipeg 2 Legislat.ive Bldg., Winnipeg 1 I I �

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, April 6, 1964 MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair o MR. CHAIRMAN: Department XIV, Item 1, Administrationo HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Mro Chair man, I think it will be useful if I make a statement on the estimates because the affairs of the department are now at a stage where some plans having evolved and some progress having been made I think I can lay information before the Committee that will help in the discussions at a later date. Basically, I want to put things in perspective a bit and I want to say about four quite simple things.

I niay say them at some length and I may say them with s�me elaboration, but basically I think they're four fairly simple things that I want to say, the first being that Manitoba has been doing fairly well.

I think Manitoba hae: been keeping up with the Canadian parade, and that would be the first thing I would like to say; and the second is that this isn't going to be good enough for the months and the years that :lie ahead of us; and the third thing is that that being so, we have made a plan which is big enough and long range enough to take care of the difficulties that we foresee; .and finally that suffieient progress is being made, I think, to justify our faith that the plans we have laid will in fact be able to accomplish what we hope for it, as it were faith justified by progress to this point.

For the present it can be said that economic development is proce eding in Manitoba in a satisfactory manner, both in absolute terms and in relation to the country as a whole, and there are some basic facts that I would like to lay before the Committee to show my reasoning in this regard. In the past 12 months industry has invested in Manitoba, or made commitments to invest, of almost $50 million, which represents an increase of almost $6 million over the previous year, and indications are that capital expenditures will increase fur:ther to about $57 million in 1964.

Value of manufacturing production reached an estimated $885 million, an increase of $28 o 8 million over the previous year o If present trends continue, the annual value of our manufacturing production will reach a billion dollars before the end of next year, A gratify ing characteristic is the fact that existing industry, that is existing manufacturing firms, .have shown very considerab le expansiono In the past year some 56 firm:s have made extensive ex pansion to their facilities within the province, and I might pause just here to say that I think this is perhaps one of the most satisfactory features that we could hope for, that is that a rising confidence and a rising technical ability and a rising ambition in the province have brought about a very considerable expansion of the existing plant aiJ.d the existing facilities that we have here now o This does not mean that we are lacking in new industries.

The very opposite is trueo Last year a total of 48 new manufacturing businesses or operations an nounced plans to start operations in the province, with a capital investment of $18-1/2 million, 34 in the Greater Winnipeg area, and I think this is very satisfactory, 14 in rural Manitobao Total new employment in these industries will approximate 546 work peopleo This compares with 36 new industries last year with a capital investment of $5 million and employment of 206o This is a substantial increase in the year.

Tourist expenditures in Mat1itoba recorded another all-time record and totalled $42.4 million, and some 1,445,000 people visited the province last year. It is estimated that ap proxima tely 44,700 Manitobans worked in factories last year and drew s 'alaries and wages totalling $174 milliono This is a new estima te, the latest estimate available. Approximately 229,300 Manitobans were employed in service industries in the province last year, an increase of some 5, 800 over the previous year. The continued im;Jact of technology enlarges the need for new jobs.

Discussions we have had in this House befor e indicated the fact that the advanced mechnization of industry and the advance of technology and automation creates a need for additional jobs automatically, and technological change has yielded increased productivity but fewer jobs than would otherwise April 6, 1964. Page 1561

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) ..• have been the case. Due to the continued impact of technology the number of new jobs which must be created poses our most important challenge and some of our industries cannot employ as many people as before. This is one of the facts of life and some de tail has been given on it on other occasions, notably in dealing with the railroad industry, the meat packing industry, and some others. But in this regard Manitoba is better off than the nation as a whole and is in a considerably better position than the industrial provinces ofOntario, Quebec, and the Maritimes.

We have been able to create sufficient new jobs to date to absorb those displaced by automation and tech nological change and still provide for virtual full employment in the province. Some other pro vinces have not been so fortunate, and there is evidence that manufacturing employment has declined and the rates of unemployment are higher in those other provinces that I have just men tioned. We are of course a part of the national economy and are unlikely to be able to run com pletely counter to the national trend.

The strength shown by manufacturing last year is particularly encouraging because it is to manufacturing that we must look for the future growth of our economy. There is every indica tion of contiii.ued expansion in the year ahead provided our industries continue to improve their efficiency and provided more of our firms successfully enter the export market.

I would like to emphasize that the success I think of our development of secondary industry in Manitoba, as it depends on any single factor, depends on the development of export markets, export markets being understood in the broader sense of including markets in eastern and western Canada which we have not so far reached, as well as markets in countries abroad. This can be done and it's our intention to assist our manufacturing industri.es where we can. The most hopeful feature is that those involved have come to recognize the p;roblem and to realize that changes must be made.

However, willingness to change is not in itselr'enough •. It's clear that drastic changes will have to be made and that steps already taken by the government, by public authorities and by industry to introduce new technology must be accelerated even further. There's ample reason for optimism, however, a brighter future will not emerge by itself. To ensure it requires the sound understanding of our situation, and imaginative effective efforts aimed at industrial development and geared to the realities of the situation will be required on all sides. Manitoba has many advantages.

Manitoba has a good many assets, but these must in fa ct be exploited if we are to benefit from them. Growth will not come from adherence to estab lished. foTIIJ.s but rather through the invention of new orders to meet new conditions and to seize new opportunities. This doesn't present us with any real difficUlties because, in my opinion at !east, pioneering has never gone out of style in Manitoba or in any fields. Well the situation at the moment then is not.out of step with the rest of Canada, but we do have a problem.

I would like to remind the committee that I drew this to the attention of the House some three sessions ago, some 2 1/2 years ago when the first calculations of my depart ment indicated that by 1970 ,not 1975, there would on the continuation of present trends in the province be a shortage of jobs in the province to the extent of 40, 000 to take care of the work force that is expected at that time. It was on the basis ·Of this calculation and others that the COMEF organization was put together and given its task to do.

It will be recalled that their findings not only confirmed the main conclusion that we had established oursle.ves but even in creased it, and that by the year 1975, 5 years later, there would be a need not for 40,000 jobs but for 75,000 jobs by 1975. Well they stated the job ahead of us quite baldly and in quite a challenging way. It can be called a problem of the dimensions of 75 by 75 -- 75,000 jobs by 1975.

It is something to give anyone qualms because that's a very considerable task ahead of not the government, and not industry alone, and not agriculture alone and not any of the sectors alone, but certainly all com bined.in a community effort. Well COMEF went further than merely stating the size of the job -- 75 by 75. They also· spelled out a good many of the difficulties that we face in the province in tackling this job. COMEF demanded a new perspective on our work.

They stated, and .it is obviously true and must be true to every member of the committee that the job is a long-term 'job and is by no means a short-run task, and the perspective and the plans that we make must be equally long term and I.think far-reaching. I think it may not be too much to say that the ta:sk is to revolu tionize the economy of Manitoba in that period in a way almost comparable to the revolution that Page 1562 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Evans cont'd) •••••• took place when the economy of Manitoba turned from the fur trade to becoming agriculture. Now we are turn:ing from a province that has been very largely and perhaps to a declin:ing degree, but very largely agricultural, and must now :in the terms of COMEF turn to secondary industry as the means for sparking the new jobs that will be required. We have adopted the advice given to us by COMEF to the effect that this must be accomp li shed by a partnership, a partnership in which the government has some role to play but :in which it is not the leading actor.

It is a partnership of labor and management and agricult ure, with some others assisting as their roles dictate, such as the academic fields and the teaching fields and the universities and the experimental people, but with the government playing an im portant, but in our view a subsidiary role. We are a free enterprise economy. I personally believe that the greatest strides will be made within that framework, and that assigns to the government an important but to some extent a subsidiary role in the partnership for progress.

We have an important part to play and I think COMEF would say, an :indispensable part, but not necessarily the leading one. Well the government has proceeded vigorously to pick up the responsibilities assigned to it under COMEF and is very conscious of this fact that the successful implementation of the plan is going to require in Manitoba in almost every field of endeavour a new spirt of confidence, a new spirit of endeavour and of venturesomeness, if there is such a word, in every field of economic endeavour in the prov:ince. The government frankl y aclmowledges the difficulties which lie ahead.

We are equally confident that these difficulties can be overcome. But we say difficulties or no, there should be no spirit of defeatism and no sabotaging of the efforts of the province through misrepresentation. I believe that it is essential for those of us concerned to believe what COMEF said, and if I were to say that there was a: s:ingle finding that COMEF made that was more important than another -- I used that same description in connection with exports --but let me say another f:ind:ing which ranks beside it is the f:ind:ing.it can be done.

On the advice of certa:inly the most lmowledgeable people from :industry, lab or and agriculture, and others gathered together, and advised by some 38 of the best professional consult:ing firms on this continent and elsewhere, there is the considered report and the well-reasoned report that COl\IIEF put before us saying it can be done -- it can be done if -- and then it went to work and set out the requirements.

Well this task of 75 by 75 has before it the object of fully employ:ing a work force which by 1975 is expected to consist of the following: 75,000 in primary :industries; 66,000 :in manufa ctur:ing, 223,000 in the service industries, and 61,0000 in the transportation industry. Well, clearly with the task before us we can't afford to be sanguine about the economic future of Manitoba. I rather like the Chinese word for crisis, if we are in fact facing a sort of crisis.

They run things by symbols as you !mow in their language, and the word crisis to them is a danger opportunity, Well I think we have a danger opportunity in front of us now in Manitoba. I think we are facing a sort of crisis, but it is not the kind of crisis which should give us any cause for despondency, but simply to call forth the kind of efforts that I think we can make in Manitoba. The effect of technological change and increases in the labour force will make job creation a continuing problem.

Professional and highly skilled jobs will be seeking people, and those with less education and with less training, the lower and unskilled people, wiil be finding it more and more difficult to get jobs. This problem of course has come under the care of my colleague the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Agriculture, and together an attack is being made on that front. The province's future economic growth depends on effective concerted action in the private and public sectors, based on sound information about the condition of the province and the national economies and the growth opportunities that do exist.

The growth and development of Manitoba is the concern, as I have said, of government, lab or, employers, primary producers and in fact services generally. History, I believe, shows us that the futUre of a society or a political entity of any kind, is determined :in large me.asure by what the people of that society think about its future. A civilization, a nation, a province can grow and prosper if it has optimistic ideas. If it exhibits negative trends and uncertain ideals and hesitant faith and few plans, it is in danger.

I'm sure it was interesting to all members to see in the newspaper recently a significant announcement in that the General Motors of Canada will invest some $120 million during the next April 6, 1964. Page 1563

(Mr. Evans cont'd) .••••• two years in plants and expanding their existing ones. As honour able members .know, General Motors owns 100 acres of land in Winnipeg adjacent to Inkster Park. I might just inform the committee that I endeavoured to contact Mr. Walker personally at once, only to find that he was away for three weeks.

But I have asked his office to arrange an appointment for me as soon as he returns, and I hope to be able to lay before him some con crete reasons why in the interst of General Motors they should consider the investment in Win nipeg and.Manitoba of some fair proportion of the $40 million they expect to invest in Canada.

We believe that our program in interesting new industry to come here is showing tangible results in the form of new plants, new products being made in Manitoba, new components being made to replace manufacturing concerns, selling them for the first time in foreign markets,' Well the COMEF program as set out in their report, contemplating as it does, I think, a revolution in the economy of the province, is a 12 year project and results will take time.

In gen eral, the COMEF recommendations fall into three broad categories, the first in which gov ernment has sole responsibility; another in which the government shares responsibility with some other entity outside itself; and the third in which piivate enterprise or labor or agriculture, or a combination of them, but excluding the government, has the responsibility. The government has I think made very considerable steps towards implementing the re sponsibilities which were indicated for it in the COMEF Report. Ther e is a total of some 155 separate distinct programs to be found within COMEF.

This does not include all the individual and separate recommendations of COMEF, but I think 155 substantial programs can be isolated -- can be identified. Of those, the government is assigned some responsibility, either sole responsibility or some substantial responsibility in the case of 137, and of the 137 the govern ment has taken action in 102 cases or 75 percent. I think, Mr. Chairman, the members of the committee might be interested in some further detail of the nature of these programs, the classes into which they fall, and the action that the government has taken.

It's divided into seven classes in this table I have before me. Government policy changes --56 of them, and of course government has responsibility for all of those', and action has been started in 43. Action has actually been initiated, some steps have actually been taken in 30 of those, and substantial planning made in 13, so that of 56 some action or substantial plan ning is advanced in 43 out of 56.

Government aids to industry-- there are 23 in all -- actually the government's respon sibility is for 23 and action started in 13; capital investment -- 14, government responsibility 12, action in 10; secondary manufacturing-- 17, government responsibility in 13, action in 12; research -- 16, government responsibility in 14, action in 10; financial-- 13, government re sponsibility in 10, action in 7; and others not specified-- 16, government responsibility in 12, action in 7.

And the totals again then, 155 programs in all, 137 of which call for government responsibilities, and action has been taken in the case of 102 or 75 percent; It is perfectly clear that the government responsibilities are divided among the depart ment, but as far as my own department is concerned, I have responsibility in the case of 27 of these programs, 27 of the 102. I shall not at this time give the detail of what those programs are or what we have done, but I have extensive detail ·and will be glad to answer questions or give a further description of my own responsibilities in that case.

I am sure that members of the committee, Mr. Chairman, would not expect me to answer for the programs that are in the hands of other departments, but reference has already been made by others of· my colleagues during their estimates, and we heard this afternoon, for example, of The Forest Act which is on e of the things which has been called for, and so it goes with the other departments. Well I remind you that this is a twelve-year job.

I suggest to you that that statement of progress in 11 months, because that is the date at which my information was compiled, has been substantial, and that we can, I think, look forward toa continued development of that work. Well since last year the Department of Industry and Commerce has undergone a pretty thorough reorganization as the honourable members will notice in the.ir estimate books. It has undertaken a vaE!tly fucreased load of work.

New agencies such as the Manitoba Export Corpor ation, the Manitoba Design Institute, and the Manitoba Research Council have greatly added to the work of the staff� These agencies are now operating and already showing practical results. I think with the mention of the load upon the stliff, I'd like to pause at this point to see if I can in a very short compass pay anything like adequate tribute to the men and women who are doing Page 1564 April 6, 1964.

(Mr, Evans cont'd) ••••• intelligent and devoted work in the interests of the people of Manitoba in the Department of Industry and Commerce. This is a company of people with whom I am proud to be associated, and I am sure that perhaps I know best of anyone the tremendous load of work that they had undertaken first of all with the compilation and the publication of the COMEF Re port, and later with the plan for im plementing that report. The people of this staff to a very considerable degree ,I think perhaps ev en more than others, inhabit two worlds.

They must inhabit the government world with its own requirements and its own specificati�ns, and they must also be very familiar and comfort able in the world of business, and I find them most acceptable in the world of business,and cer tainly in my association with them I find them a wonderful group of people.

It would be wrong to name names, except that I'm going to break that rule and say that the creation of this staff and the accomplishment of the work is very largely the responsibility of my Deputy Minister, and I think it can be truly said that he is probably the leading industrial developer, certainly in Canada, and one of the leading industrial developers on the North American Continent at least. I do thank my staff for their warm support and for the wonderful work they're doing in the public interest.

At this time it is my intention to confine my remarks to the highlights of the department's program for 1964-65. In the coming year it's intended to maintain the programs that we've been carrying out and in some instances to increase them. We propose to maintain our tourist and industrial advertising program and we will continue our policy of providing maximum assis tance to existing industries and to aid their expansion and development, a policy, I might add, which has been very fruitful.

Economic research will continue to be the cornerstone of our industrial development pro gr am and we intend to continue to make available to business every service which properly falls within the scope of government responsibility.

This responsibility is very wide in Mani toba at this stage because as has been pointed out there is an absence in Manitoba, and in almost any part of Canada except to some extent in Toronto and Montreal and the industrial com plexes down there, of the many of the private consulting agencies and professional talent which are so needed out here, is making it necessary for a time for the government to fill in that need and to supply that lack. We intend to continue to bring to the attention of businessmen in this country and else where the opportunities that exist in Manitoba for profitable enterprise.

These are activities with which you are already familiar. I do not intend to speak about them but of course will be de lighted to answer any questions that honourable members may have as to the proponents of the department in these what one might call routine or bread and butter operations -- very im portant operations, and very .extensive operations -- but I'm not going to describe them in gr eater detail at this time. Well in addition to the regular activities of the department we have some special pro grams for the coming fise1al year and I would like to say a word about them now.

We will in cr ease our efforts to assist Manitoba firms to produce and sell more parts and components in Canada. As a part of this program, a Manufacturi ng Opportunities Show will be held on April 8th and 9th, that's of this present week, and I would urge all of the members of the com mittee to take advantage of going down to see that show. I think you'll be quite surprised at th e capacity of Manitoba industry and at the extent of goods that can be manufactured in this province. The response to this show has been surprising and gratifying.

We had thought at first to take 3, 000 square feet of space in the Norquay Building and have our sample show there -- a good space, 100 by 30 --but we very quickly got pushed out of that and at the moment we have from eight to ten thousand square feet at the Royal Alexandra Hotel.

There are 50 exhi bits there comprising parts in the thousands which the leading manufacturers of the country believe that Manitoba is capable of producing economically, because these leading manufacturers have come here at their own expense and brought their own personnel and displaying their own parts here with the one object, from their point of view, of obtaining bids which they think will be competitive, and perhaps more competitive than they have now, or service that is better or some advantage to themselves, Such leading manufact urers as General Motors and Ford of Canada and Westinghouss, Trans-Canada Air Lines, The Atomic Energy of Canada and many April 6, 1964.

Page 1565 V

(Mr. Evans cop.t'd) ••••• • other very large companies are displaying their things, and also quite a variety of smaller-companies displaying their requirements. Based on the results of recent markets investigations in the Western United States - and I shall make copies available -- I will table them in the House and make a copy available of these reports for each of the caucus headquarters, and if any honourable member would like to have copies of these reports, if they'll let me know afterwards I'll be glad to supply them.

We have made market investigations in the Mid-western United States and the Department and the Manitoba Export' Corporation in 1964 will sponsor ten or twelve specialty sales missions of specific industries to the United States, each mission to consist of three or four manufacturers each. Keeping these missions small will permit the individu al manufacturer to deal directly with the customer. He'd report designs, specifications, price and delivery. In fact, he will be urged to arm himself with that practical information. He will, in fact, be taking a sales trip.

In this way we also believe our manufacturers will gain a better understanding of the problems and potential of export sales. This is a program designed to help industry to help itself. It provides the mechanism by which new markets can be found; new products can be developed; and new industries can be built. The Manitoba Development Fund has proven itself to be an excellent vehicle in the promo tion of industrial development.

The expansion of the capital investment program required for desirable in fund targets will .call for additional financing from all sources and for improved services from the financial communities. It is intended that the fund expand its services and ac tively seek out developing situations. It is intended that the fund accept a more important role in promoting the province's industry generally. The fund will give special attention to key industries and particularly those locating in rural Manitoba.

One of the conclusions of COMEF was that many financial institutions which operate in other parts of the country and in other countries, and which do not operate within the province, are unaware of the needs and opportunities for investment in Manitoba. It was urged that a program be develope'd to keep financial and busiitessmen in Eastern Canada, the United States an d abroad, fully and constantly aware of the markets and investment possibilities iri Mani toba. We will publicize investm ent opportunities on a regular basis.

We have just had pre pared a portfolio of investment opportunities and I shail also table copies of these and have them available for the groups in the House. I think the hmiourable members will see from the detailed work that has gone into this portfolio of opportunities the kind and class of work, and the amount of work that is being dore by the department and by the staff to which I have just re ferred. The same portfolio and future portfolios of investment opportunities will be given wide and regular distribution in Canada, the United States and abroad.

I am hopeful in this way that we can dispel some of the myths that exist in the minds of some financial institutions and replace it with an image of a province with sound investment opportunities. I think you have only to travel in business circles outside of the province, and certainly outside of the country, to re alize the extent to which our assets and. our capabilities here are not known among those who might wish to take advantage of them if they were better publicized.

There is a need for standard industrial districts in our rural towns if they are to be suc cessful in their industrial development efforts. Our experience has also shown that it would be helpful if engineering studies were completed in advance and itemized estimates of all costs involved in developing industrial sites are known.

In cominon with almost any other building project, the costs in the end are sometimes startlingly larger than some of the early estimates, and we hope that by engineering planning in advance we will be able to spare some of the ven tures these unpleasant surprises which occur in this con..'lection. We are therefore prepared to as sist the establishment of standard industrial parts by paying up to 25 percent of the cost of jointly authorized engineering studies provided the department's share for any one municipality does not exceed$2,000.00.

To encourage the establishment of regional development associations in rural Manitoba, the department will make available establishment grants based on $500.00 per municipality arid also operating grants on a 50-50 bas�s for funds raised -- matching funds on a 50-50 basis - matching the funds raised by regional associations from municipal and other local sources up to a maximum of 509 per capita for the total population of all participating municipalities. Page 1566 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Evans cont'd) •••••• There are many sound reasons in favour of the regional concepts. Many of the problems facing rural communitie s are regional in nature, and by pooling re sources for development, several towns acting together can accomplish what would be out of their reach acting separately. Each association will be able to appoint a full time development co-ordinator. One such association has applied for incorporation 1mder the title of Pembina Triangle Development Association. As part of our program for economic progress we plan to 1mdertake a.special in-plant training program in the needle trades.

This industry is 1mable to maintain its output at the present time due to the lack of skilled workers. The new program will train approximately 600 workers ill the necessary skills -- 600 workers a year. Training will be undertaken in the plant of the manufacturer requesting an in-plant training program. This is a shared program. The province will employ and pay the instructors. The Federal Government will share half this cost. The province will also pay a weekly allowance of $33.00 to each trainee for a 44 · hour week. Each training period will be for eight weeks.

The manufacturer will supply the training space, the training equipment, the training materials. The manufacturer will also pay to the Manitoba government one-half of the allowance paid to each trainee. The Federal Government will pay to the province 25 percent of the allowance. The program will be carried out jointly by the Departments of Education, Labour, and Industry and Commerce. At the management level we intend initiating this year an industrial engineering and con trol program for the soft goods industry.

This program will have the following objective: to create an awareness of the techniques and values of methods evaluation and improvements. I suppose these are time and motion studies and things of a technical character that I'm not familiar with -- work measurements, incentive wage payments and other technical skills with in the industry -- to stimulate an interest in direct costing and control techniques in the pro vince's soft goods manufacturing by establishing direct product costing and direct cost control reports for management.

This is a series of information publications or bulletins w)lich will be exchanged among the firms engaged in the industry for mutual improvement of their tech niques in these fields. A MEMBER: Will it be available to members of the House? MR. EVANS: I'm not aware whether it will or not. It would seem to me that this would probably be an exchange between the firms engaged in the field, but I assure you there is noth ing secret about them and it might well be that we could get samples and examine them and see the quality of the work.

So I'll certainly take that suggestion under consideration and, if it is feasible to do so, I will see that they are made available for the committee next year. This will also make a start towards uniform costing throughout the industry to lead to more intelligent specializatiQn in various segme nts of the industry. This will have the effect, we believe, of creating in the industry a nucleus of prime work study and work measurement demand.

It will develop a work force which will have benefited financially from and which accepts the concept of objective methods, work measurements, and incentive or piece work payment programs. This is a long term program also and will take several years to complete. For the coming year it is proposed to concentrate this program on the Fur Industry, and we have been promised the support and co-operation of the Furriers Guild and the Fur Workers Union.

Under the joint auspices of the Manitoba Design Institute and the department, a Canadian so uvenir contest is planned, and I wonder if the honourable members have received through the mail some advertising quite recently from a new trust co.q1pany -- I hesitate to mention that in front of my honourable friend but when he sees it, he will see that an incentive is being offered to people to open new accounts by offering them a very attractive new series of -- I suppose they're toy dolls -- or they're made up anyway and they represent the wild life series of this part of the country.

It shows buffalo, and bear, and all sorts of animals of such high quality that they have been chosen for distribution by this company as. an incentive, and I think it's a fine thing for them to find in the province here, production of this quality . .,--(interject tion) --Well, if my honourable friend doesn't open an account there, he can't get one. It's in tended that prizes in the order of $2500, $2000, and $1 000 be offered for products submitted which are marketable and can be profitable to manufacture in Manitoba. In the coming year four .Design Seminars will be held in Winnipeg.

Top experts in the design field in soft goods, processed foods, packaging, and metal fabricating will be brought in. April 6, 1964. Page 1567

(Mr. Evans cont'd) • , , •• It is felt that such seminars will help make Manitoba industry more d�sign conscious and encourage Manitoba, manufacturers to produce products with ingenuity and originality, In the next year the main function of the Manitoba Research Council will be to co-ordinate existing research facilities in the province and determine which industries require and will support technical investigation. Two fields will receive priority. The first is Kaoline clay.

Kaoline clay, which is used extensively in the paper and ceramic industries in Canada, is presently imported almost en tir�ly from the USA. Near Arborg in Manitoba is one of the largest Kaolin deposits in Canaqa. Recent samples from this deposit have exhibited outstanding white qualities which is most im portant in its use as a paper filler. However, the deposit consists of a mixture of Kaolin clay an d Silica sand and to date no satisfactory method has beem found to separate the Kaolin from the clay.

A program is being put under way which it is believe�! will have a very reasonable chance of success, The second is in connection with northern timber. Preliminary results from tests showed that the ground wood pulp produced from nothern Manitoba pulpwood is of high quality due to excellent brightness and good strength.

The brightness factor of 65.2, that is without chemical treatment, as obtained from the test is still above the equivalent factor of 6:J. 0 which is the highest presently available to the paper industry, It is expected that a ground wood, pulp exhib iting the characteristics as established by the tests will demand a premium price and t!:.o:·efore assist substantially in the development of the northern Manitoba Pulp and Paper Project. Now I come to the subject whichlthink is of such great importance, and that is exports.

There is much that can be done to assist the manufacturing sector of the economy, and one field looks parti cularlypromising and this is the fieldof exports, and we intend to increase our activities in this field. To many Canadian manufacturing concerns, the world around them is in terms of a threat to their markets rather than a potential market for their own goods. This essentially negative approach, this inferiority complex has acted as a brake to initiative and to increased production.

COMEF stated very bluntly that the extent to which Manitoba will increase its job oppor tunities in the future depends in a large part on the extent to which our industries increase their share of world trade in manufactured products. The development of export markets is one of the most challenging tasks of our time. If we are going to find more jobs for young Man itobans and keep them in Manitoba, we just have to sell more in the export markets. I believe that our potential in the export field is enormous, and I don't use that word lightly.

We have a better chance than any other western province to win Eastern Canadian markets, Midwest USA markets, and most European markets provided we take action which will encourage business to exp and their exports efforts, For every extra million dollars of manufactured or processed food products that we can export, on the average, an additional fifty people will be directly employed, In addition, other jobs will be generated elsewhere in the economy. It takes time to find sales opportunities; to make contacts with buyers and to close orders in the highly competitive markets of the world.

We are already having some, worthwhile successes in organizing the sales of Manitoba products overseas, and at the present time Manitoba firms are quoting or submitting samples for negotiating with agents on fifty different Manitoba pro ducts in fifteen different countries. I have a list here which, while not complete, does show the variety of products and does show the variety of countries in which these negotiations are taking place. MR. PAULLEY: More moccasins? MR. EVANS: I don't remember whether the moccasins are here. The moccasins were an excellent example of a man showing a little initiative on his own.

He made up some samples, he took them over on a personal trip to London, and in what was a prolonged effort went around and showed them to a fe.w people and my honourable friend knows the success that he had, His problem very quickly became that of producing enough stuff to fill the orders, and it shows what can be done by individual initiative in this case --I hate to remind my honourable friend --by private enterprise. MR. PAULLEY: They looked well when the were doing the limbo, MR. EVANS: My list then is as follows, and with your permission, Mr.

Chairman, I am going to read this list to show the variety of goods and of countries in which negotiations are · taking place, Frozen beef and por�. and edible offal --I understand from reviewing this that Page 1568 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Evans cont'd) .••••. offal is, while it sounds awful, really consists of things like livers, to ngue, and heart and other things which always sound much better than offal, but that's the way it's referred to -- the frozen beef and pork and edible offal in France, Sweden and Britain; chicken residue for cat food in Britain; kiln dried onions in Japan and England; fresh water fish in the United States, Italy, France, Belgium and Holland; wild rice was exhibited at London's Delicatessan Show.

I'm not indicating there that any contract is being negotiated at the present ti me, simply that the product was exhibited. A new variety of rapeseed in nearly every Europ ean country including behind the Iron Curtain in Poland and in Moscow in Russia; dried beans in England and Norway; kosher meat products, including kosher foods for babies is being success fully sold in London, and a close look is being taken at the markets on the continent -- (inter jection) --Well, it should be quite natural.

There are some excellent prospects in IsraeL I think it's very interesting to know that here again quality is the factor that enabled it to be sold, not only the quality of the meats and the rrieat products, but I am told that the certifi cate, the kosher certificate if I'm using the right term, that is given here in Manitoba is greatly respected among the people who deal in a11d eat the kosher food products, and this is another case in this rather different way that quality has paid off and has gotten us the markets in com petition with other people.

Canned vegetables are being sold just south of the border and also in England, men's and women's sportswear and children's wear in London, New York, Chicago and Minneapolis; a determined effort to cash in on the fur garment market in the affluent societies of Europe - and I'll have something more to say about that later on because we firmly believe there is a very large market for our traditional fur garments which can be captured by some changes which I'll indicate later on.

Honey is being successfully sold in volume throughout Britain, and the same thing applies to Manitoba casual footwear which may be the item that you referred to. A wide variety of wood and metal products, everything from sliding windows to aluminum canoe pa ddles are being sold in the United States. I think that aluminum canoe paddle is quite a bright idea, apparently it's got enough of a hollow centre to keep it afloat. And so it goes. Markets are being actively sought for a great variety of Manitoba products all over the world. But this is only the beginning. Every week we are discovering new opportunities.

At the present time, firms �ew to the export business are quoting on probably upwardof ten million dollars worth of business at this moment. How much of this will be sold, weil I don't know. Even if it's only a fraction of that ten million dollars that is under negotiation now, it will be a worthwhile start, and past experience has shown that we can do it. Not only has COMEF said so, but past experience has confirmed that we can do it. Good results were ob ta ined as the result of the Manitoba Trade Mission, the National Canadian Sample Show and the Fly and Buy Show.

What I do know is that there is no area that is more important for us to tackle with mar ket research studies, with visits to the markets, with exhibits and with trade shows and with all the sales promotion and salesmanship that we can concentrate on helping our industries in this important task, we can increase Manitoba's export.

We have interested a substantial number of new firms in entering the export field, and I'm sure honourable members will ap preciate that it's rather a frightening thing for a firm that has dealt in the domestic market on ly to consider the many problems of shipping, sometimes translating into a foreign language, dealing in foreign currencies, employing foreign salesmen and foreign advertising, and in the end getting paid. But we have interested the following 61 new firms -- classes of new firms, in entering the export business during the past year.

In food, 19 new firms; in clothing·, which includes furs, 20; in foresty, 10; and in miscellaneous goods, 12 firms; or a total of 61. We are undertaking a special program to encourage the design and production of fur gar me nts for export to Europe, and I think this is a very interesting special situation and special opportunity that we have discovered. In 1962, that's two years ago, Canada sold $564,000 worth of fur garments in New York; but by 1963 Canada had sold $3, 551,000 of fur garments in Europe. This seven-fold increase is due almost entirely to the efforts of the Montreal fur in dustry.

None were sold by Manitoba firms. One or two furriers in·Montreal have carefully chosen their designs to suit the European mar]>:ets, have achieved production efficiency and low co sts and have used bold and imaginative sales promotion in Europe. We have tried to sell Manitoba fur garments in London but with little o'r no success. What Europe wants is high style, April 6, 1964. Page 1569

(Mr. Evans cont'd) .••••• latest fashion using up to date production techniques. We must c a:ter to the top end of the trade and that means typically Canadian skins. We have the raw ma terials right here, mink, Alaska seal, beaver, muskrat, all made into lightweight coats sold on workmanship and design and style . We are convinced that our fur industry can pro duce such coa�s just as well here as in Montreal. Five of our fur garment manufacturers.sup ported by the Winnipeg Fur Workers Union are anxious to learn how to produce for the Europ e an markets.

With their co-operation we are bringing a manufacturing furrier from London to Winnipeg. He knows what designs are needed for Europe, what type of manufacturing tech nique should be used and how to sell such coats in England, Scandinavia and on the Continent. We hope this will give us a start in Britain and Europe . Before concluding I would like to say a word about the to1,1r.i 'lt business.

The department has operated three tourist offices for a number of years; one in the Legislative Building on a twelve month basis and two at the US ports of entry into Manitoba at Emerson and the Interna tional Pe ace Garden. The two border offices are operated from May 15 to September 15th and over 38, 000 visitors were received at the Legislative Bu ilding offices and over 15,500 at Emerson and 10,900 at the Peace Garden. Due to the fact that much of Manitoba's market area is in the twelve United States to our soutl;least the Manitoba Ontario border has developed into a major port of entry.

In addition the completion of the Trans-Canada is developing an Eastern Canadian market. Therefore it is intended to establish this year an information office at the Manitoba-Ontario border to take care of this incoming business. In 1963 over 16 million viewers saw our Manitoba travel films. It is intended this year to produce a new film. Such a film will emphasize the cosmopolitan features of the province and the easily accessible resort areas.

When produced the film will be distributed through government offices in Chicago, New York, San Francisco --that is the Federal Government offices, not the Manitoba Governme nt offices of course-- and the departments, our own de partmental Winnipeg film library and the audiences including the T.V. audiences number in the millions. Well I am sorry Mr.

Chairman, to have occupied the committee so long with an opening statement but it did seem to me that I would like to lay this point of view before the committee so that we can have a thorough and fruitful debate on the policies and the prospects ahead of ·us; to awaken if I can, and to enlist if r can, the enthusiasm and the support and the backing of every Manitoban of whatever occupation or of whatever political stripe.

Now there will be criticisms of the policy itself, arid that must be, and the policy and the execution of it will benefit from those criticisms and I'm not saying a word on that subject, but .I do hope that we can all look forward optimistically to getting our job done .

So if I were to su=arize in a word I would repeat what I said at the beginning that Manitoba has been doing fairly well; it has been kee!)ing up with the Canadian parade but this is not going to be good enough in the months and years ahead, so we have made a plan that is big enough to accomplish what will amount to a revolution of an economy in twelve years; that good progress is being made in my view, progress good enough to justify our faith in its eventual success. • • • • • • continued on next page. Page 1570 April6, 1964.

MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. SMERCH ANSKI: Mr. Chairman, I' d like to certainly add a certain am ount of criticism to the remarks of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce because I feel there are certa in se ctions in his presentation that dese rve a great deal of close scrutiny and possi bly, a very thorough review and change of policy. Thls govern·ment•s policy at times gives us the imp ressi on that any item you me ntion this government can do it or it can produce it, on a sort of over the counter or basem ent bargain.

I feel that the people of Manitob a cannot afford all such luxuries. The government policy should create a favourable and satisfactory clim ate in which busin ess and/ or industry can succeed. Give industry and busin ess reas onable grounds for confidence and they will prove to be a liberal spender and a mo st enthusiastic developer.

It 's -not so much a questio n of what the government plans to do as it is what does busine ss and industry plan to do, and yet at tim es the Honourable Ministers on the other side do admit that there are problems in government -- and I agree to this type of thinking -- but I cannot agree to the over-all policy that seems to paint a very wonderful pict ure. I think we should dispense with the adjectives and the adverbs and I think we should dispense as to sa ying what will be done and possi bly take on the attitude that what are we doing and what has been done .

In order to get a high level of consumer and busine ss confidence the 11 cano 11 spirit of busin essma n and industry must have economic faith in the potential strength of our province and I don't think we need to worry too much about their ability to acco mplish this.

Let us remember that all the Canadian provinces are striving to get industry and busine ss to locate in their particular provinces, so that dollar that •s going to come as inve stmen t into Manitob a is likely to go to Saska tchewan or Ontario, and as we know, Ontario, Sas katchewan and North Dakota are very able com petitors to our efforts in seeking to attr act and locate new industries in Manitob a, I feel that busine ss and governm ent relationship should be understood in an atm osphere where industry is lookod upon as a life blood of so ciety; and if you begin to analyz e this, thi s is exactly the performance of busine ss and industry and I think that the com munity should also be aware of the fact that it is industry and busin ess that creates work for labour.

Now reviewing the COME F report and after one year in existence, and maki ng due allowance for all the usual qualifications for any forecast, the efforts and policy of this govern me nt is falling short of its object ive of providing the some 75, 000 new jobs ; and yet the over-all general economic prospect for Canada are good, which me ans -- and here I disagree with the previous_speaker --which mea ns that the Province of Manitoba is not in keeping with the over-all growth of Canada.

In my opinion I would say that it is very questionable whether we in Manit oba are able to crea te an economic growth that will make Manitoba prosperous and sufficiently great to create the num ber of new jobs required.

True, we have to take into consi deration the neces sity for industry to autom ate in order to continue to keep and mai ntain its comp etitive needs, and it is for this reason that our government has to be operated more efficiently and delay or stretch out some of the capital projects that are being undertaken in this province, and do this rather than continue to spend at the present high rate, and by this virtue they should practice a mo re efficient type of government expenditure.

You do this ·and in our jet age of industrial develop men t today you are going to find that keeping the taxes down, you are going to enable industry to come into this province, and whether it's in the export or the home consumers mar ket they will be able to compete more efficiently -- but leave it to busine ss and leave it to industry to accom plish thi s, The Manitoba Developm ent Fund, as I mentioned last year, is not sufficiently active and is not sufficiently im aginative in prom oting new indust ries to locate in Manitob a. It is more like a bank operation.

The terms and conditions of its loaning policy are completely too stringent . In addition, there is still a failure of over-a ll planning by this government to properly co- ordinate the various departments of governm ent, so that the se various departments of government can operate as a unit ..

There should be a definite outline of conditions required to be taken in order to bring an industry to Manitoba, so that an agency or a home should be establishe d rightfully under the Department of Industry and Commerce which would be in a posi tion to co- ordinate and provide any prospective industry with all the nece ssa ry regulations in reference to the building code, water, sewage, pollution problems, tax rate, structu res, value of land, cost of electric ity, source of gas or as an alternative, create an industrial park and speak of this to the prospective April 6, 1964. Pa ge 1571

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) ... industry on a definite basis. Now let us review and compare this type of planning with our present conditions. If industry wants to locate in a certain area of Greater Winnipeg, one has to be most careful, because as soon as it is known that a new business or co mpany have plans to locate in a certain area, certain very busy people will option most of the land in the area and overnight, the value of the land will increase from $400 or $500 an acre to as high as $2 , 000 per acre.

Certain people who should be more responsi ble and who are in a pos ition to receive some advance information, these are the ones that take full advantage of this unfortunate situation; and instead of striving to help and assist the company to procure a landsite under the most favourable conditions, the company becomes a victim of circums tances by being faced in having to pay inflated high land pri ces . We have lost to Manitoba many such indus tries by this unfair practice, because it's not the value of the land, it's a matter of principle and ethics.

If this is what is happening in purchasing land to locate a new plant, then you begin to question yourself what happens with the other services? There are members of certain local municipalities in this province who take advantage of their position to make a profit at the expense of a prospec tive · industry that might locate in their general area, and we will lose possi bly more industries from Manitoba if we do not correct and rectify this type of a practice.

I do hope that this government will not inpose a sales tax because this is going to have a very strong impact as far as industry and business is concerned in Manitoba. And I would like to outline to you, Mr. Chairman, very briefly, why.

A provincial sales tax, in view of the fact that the other adjoining provinces haven't got it, will have a very unfavourable impact on those sm alle1' business es tablishments that are located near the Saskatchewan boundary, for one, and I think that some of the members in this House who are sitting on the opposite side might be well advised to explore this method of increased taxation with some of the smaller business men in their area.

There are a large number of distributing and similar firms now located in the Province of Manitoba, who will leave and/or move out of the province because the sales tax in Manitoba will remove their advantage to locate in Manitoba and as a consequence we will lose those industries, which .of course will mean the 1 oss of jobs to Manitoba.

We in Manitoba, and especially the business and industrial man of Manitoba, must help together with the govern ment -- and this is where I agree with the Honourable Minister -- that it is an abs olute neces sity to create the necessa ry increase in the economic growth of Manitoba, otherwise we will not be able to create the necessa ry new jobs that are required. · I might also mention that this is very much a national problem and we in Manitoba should not make the confortable excuse that this is a problem only for those of us who have the privi lege of living .in Manitoba.

This is the responsibility of business and industry with a good, favourable condition for investment in Manitoba. We need full and real partnership with the government, busi ness, industry, labour -- but not the kind of real partnerships tnat are made in legal offices in the form of written agreements, but partnerships made out of life itself from the daily process of living and working together, rather tha� develop a single big concept on the .part of government, or for that matter, of labour or business . It's teamwork.

I am not re presenting business , as is apt to be described by some of the more so .,.called members of this House who favour socialism, but our Liberal Party is always interested in dev!')loping new industries; the creation of new jobs with the aid and co-operation of governrnent and labour. It is not a one-way street. All of us must co -operate and we must stop being critical for the sake of criticism and create an atmosphere of co-operation to further the economic growth of Mani toba and thereby create more new jobs . It seems, Mr.

Chairman, that at times business and industry is looked upon as being the catch-all. Labour points its finger at big business, or business for that matter, and says they're being unfair. J:he people in the community want ever-increasing donations for some of their local projects . You have government agencies and inspectors coming around and everything dovetails into this one establishment, either business or industry, and this should not be so.

There isn't a single business man or industry in Manitoba that you cannot approach and sit down with him and dis cuss or negotiate or arrive at any satisfactory conclusion to no matter how difficult a problem it might be . A nd this is the atmosphere in which we should continue in Manitoba to create and encourage the expansion of industry and business. Today, whether we like it or not, governments are involved in our economic affairs and Page 1572 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) , .. the wisdom or foolish ness of government action is a major deterrent in reference to a success or failure of a business enterprise. Where to exert the economic power of government and how to control it are among the most important questions that the people of Manitoba have to answer today. The deliberate, conscientious , intelligent and thoughtful employment of the economic power of government is of the utmost importance to the well being of industry, business and the people of Manitoba.

As mentioned before, the use that industry makes of gover nme nt as an economic force and theu· degree of partici pation in its direction and control, industry can no longer refuse not to take

part in the formu lation of government policy. If it fails to do so in the furtherance and protection of its own interests , it will only have itself to blame for the result. In the system that now exists industry cannot evade its responsibility by simply placing it on the shoulders of the elected members of this HOLlse , or for that matter on the shoulders of the elected members of any government.

In seeking policy that will produce a more rapid rate of economic growth indnstry is always open to the charge that it is seeking its own selfish interests ; and with this type of thinking I aSSllre you that you are not going to draw a great number of new industries into Manitoba. But industry is always seeking to expand the sale of its products and as a result stands to make more profit -- and there's nothing sinful, and it is not a shame to make a profit in busi ness. Industry is also very conscious of what is required to be accomplished.

Behind industry are the people of this province, those who are employed and those who want a better and more co mfortable way of life and also for those who are unemployed today; they too, have a stake in this province. And further, there are the younger people who are coming into the labour market in ever-imreasing numbers and who have little ass urance, who have very little ass urance that a place will be found for them in our economic plans . I would like to interject in this remark, Mr.

Chairman, a brief mention on unemployment, because it has a very definite direct bearing on industry, new jobs and business enterprise. A machine or a piece of equipment left idle will deteriorate and by its inactivity does reduce the productivity of that particular com munity; but a man left idle is deprived of his claim on society's output and becomes a burden on the community rather than an asset to the community.

Unemployment as we all know is one cif the most destructive, humiliating and terrifying experiences that any worker can possi bly experience, and in our present-day society this simply should not be so. This can be sol ved by proper planning -- and when I say proper planning, more than just the average type of winter works projects -- and I think that this is a basi c part of _our over-all planning with government, with business, with industry, to create the new jobs that are required in order to further the economic growth of our province .

True enough, we quote unemployment figures in terms of percentages and satisfy our selves that they are supposedly low in Manitoba. But let us for a matter of comparison con sider -- and here •s an excellent co mparison -- let us consider this five percent of unemploy ment in Manitoba as being the upper five percent of the so-cal led rich, because it will include most of us in this Chamber who would then be unemployed. This would mean that every man and woman in Manitoba who today earn more than $7 , 500 a year would be out of work. Can you imagine that?

Only the upper five percent of the people of Manitoba earn more than $7 , 500 per year. Naturally this is not likely to take place , bLlt this does show the volume and scope of the unemployment proble m in Canada, and, of course, as a consequence in Manitoba. The only cure for the unemployment proble m is a faster rate of economic growth so as to provide more jobs than this government -- and I say than this government -- has been able to achieve or create in the foreseeable future . For several years \ve have tried a number of traditional measures to stimulate growth.

As mentioned above : winter works projects, some type of expansion of public works , which could poss ibly include the floodway, the diversion dam at Portage -- adri:litted these have done something but at that it has been a limited success . The improvement is much too slow; the number of unemployed is still much too high. We need to create much more comprehensive and daring measures to solve and reduce the present volume of unemployment and to provide jobs especi ally for the waves of younger people that will be coming into the labour market.

We must undertake a more realistic and definite plan, and to a great extent and at some risk, and should cease to rely on half measures with tlE hope that things will take care of themselves. Page 157 3

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) ... Once we have interjected ourselves into disturbing the natural growth of busi ness by government interference then we should have planning all the way; no half measures should be permitted to take place. Industry is a creator of new jobs and at times this government wants to assume this responsi bility -- and this function it cannot perform. It is like a fish out of water. We do want proper co-o rdination, proper_ execution of our object_ive. Take the men off welfare and your tax requirements become less.

Give this same individual an opportunity to get a job and he will contribute in the form of taxes. It is equally as important to pay attention to removing people off our welfare registers and putting them to work wherever possible. This is a proper approach to efficient government instead of always increasing taxes as this government has been doing. The large and ever .increasing budget is no indication of good aggressi ve government we hear so much about. · This is one way that we can lower our over-all government expenditure by beco ming more efficient.

Reduce taxes and certainly you are going to create a much more favourable background for the growth of industry. The risks of tax reduction are obvious . It means an immediate drop in government revenue. But let me point out that government deficits at times are largely a matter of bookkeeping, because it's not like industry that has to provide capital for its own expansion and for the creation of its own operation.

In reference to the Honourable Minister's remarks in reference to the COMEF report, it is very interes ting to note that the COMEF report was actually a creation and to a large extent the success of the help and assist ance that our business community has given this report in Manitoba, and therefore it is on the same basis and on the same principle that we should continue to expand and create favourable conditions for additional industries in Manitoba by seeking the help , guidance and co -operation of the businessmen of this province.

I would like to see the matter of partnership practised a little more realistically. I appreciate the fact that things can be done, but why not change thatt o an approach of, "it must be don e. " Not only can it be done but it must be done -- so that you have something to go at, accomplish, and perform and say it's a fact that has been es tablished and a job well. done.

I again would like to point the attention of the Honourable Minister that engineering studies whether they be in rural Manitoba and whether the studies of cost program investigation and work study and work simplication study, are not going to achieve the attraction of new indust ries into this province. Leave this to the business community. Leave this to the accountant. Leave this to industry. All that the government should be doing is encouraging them into more posi tive approaches in so lving some of the proble ms that have not been so lved and which are hindering the attraction of industry into Manitoba.

Certain government departments are slow and abso lutely lack an over-all genuine and enthusiastic support to assist new industry. This does not apply to the Department of Industry and Commerce, but this certainly does apply to a large number of departments in this govern .ment today. There is an over-all attitude that industry is not necessarily wanted in certain areas .

The location -of new business and new indus try has to be encouraged by the government and I would like to see a little more authority ·given to the Department of Industry and Com merce in reference to continue to assist industry after it has located in certain areas.

We have examples today of where an industry has located in this province and the Department of Industry has spent a great deal of time and effort to encourage this industry to come into the province, and then what happens ? -- either the local municipality or the local authorities will come up with some sma ll aggravating condition to the established industry that destroys co mpletely the pleasant relation that should exist between industry and a community.

Now it's equally as important to have the proper follow-up, and. the only way you are going to have the proper follow up is to giye the proper authority to those agents of the Department of Industry and Commerce that know what they're doing; and don't give it to the agents in the Department of Agriculture; and don't give it to the agents of the Department of Labour, who do �ot appear to have a vested interest in the development of industry in Manitoba. I sometimes think we have too many inspectors . Industry is willing to co- operate.

Industry is willing to live with the community, but don't aggravate their condition by sending unnecessary agents and inspectors and inspector after inspector to find out what they are doing every hour of the day. They are interested in running their busi ness . They are not interested in paying attention to a lot of unnecessa ry reports and agents coming in to check on their operation. Page 1574 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd} ... Manitoba businessmen and industry has the greatest degree of responsibility in providing work of the people of Manitoba. Give them an opportunity, give them this atmosphere and proper climate within which to operate. Let the government assist where pos,sible , but let men with vision, determination and faith in Manitoba, and faith in their own judgment and investment of their own funds , develop new industries with the same pioneering spirit that originally developed the western country and certainly developed our Province of Manitoba. I think Mr.

Chairman, if we were to adopt some of the suggestive criticism I think that we can attract a great deal of more industry into the province. And I speak with a great deal of con crete suggestion, because I have gone through some of these experiences myself firsthand. I would like to simply make my su mmation on this basis : it is all right for busines s, it is all right for industry to come into this province and put up the initial money and start a project or enterprise , but then you have four or five other directions of expenditure.

You have your labour com mitment: you have your tax commitment; you have to develop your markets -- and I don't care how good a governrrent agency you have in developing markets , this is not enough. A busi nessman will not build a plant on a promise of a market. He will want to go out by himself, find this market and be assu red that his investment is not in jeopardy, and the businessma n and industry in this province, or for that matter, in any part of Canada, has to take the initial risk. If he makes a loan from the bank it has to be guaranteed.

If he makes a loan from the Manitoba Development Fund he has to give them his personal guarantee and everything except possi bly the buttons on his shirt -- (Interjection} -- They are not worth very much ..... I think Mr. Chairman, that on the one hand, we have the present government with its policy talking of the Manitoba Development Fund and I again say in closing that this is run like a bank and possibly more so than a bank and I think we are running sc ared for the fear of making an error .

I know when you make an error it is not a very good thing to make, because the opposition or the community or the people surrou nding will start to criticize you; but if you are creating new jobs , you are creating new wealth, you can overcome a good percentage of this type of criticis m, because it sometimes takes somewhat of a tough hide to overco'me this type of criticism. I feel Mr.

Chairman, that in closing, I do hope that this government will not undertake to set up more departments in their over-all Department of Industry and Commerce and I do hope that they will continue to be as active as they are, with the primary objective being to create a favourable background, but let business and let industry do those things which are best for business. They will develop the province; they will bring industry into the pro vince and they are the ones that will create the new jobs and they will solve their own problems. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

PAULLEY: I thought originally that I would confine my remarks to those of the Minister who introduced his estimates. However, I feel that I should say a word or two in response to the subject matter raised by the Honourable Member for Burrows . I do not know Mr. Chairman whether or not he is expounding the philosophy of the Liberal Party of Manitoba. I do suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if he is then he has aided materially in the further downgrad ing of the Liberal Party of the Province of Manitoba.

Because it seemed to me as I listened to the remarks of the Honourable Member for Burrows that he offered much criticism without any so lutions to the problem that we have confronting industry and expansion in the Province of Manitoba. While my honourable friend was speaking of industry loc ating in the Province of Manitoba he mentioned the difficulties that industry has with certain municipalities, or with municipali ties in locating, and he suggested that the local areas , or local municipalities , should not inter fere ,vith the industries in the area but to give them a relatively free hand.

Iw ant to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if industry were to be given a free hand in locating in the Province of Manitoba that many locations would find themselves in the self-same pos ition as the suburb of Elmwood has found itself in over a number of years in respect of the location of a foundry. I would sugge st, Mr. Chairman, that this also was a situation that Winnipeg itself found itself in with the location of the North Star Oil on the boundaries of St. Boniface and it was only after years of endeavour, and the co-operation I grant you, Mr.

Chairman, of the co mpany itself, that some of the difficulties as the result of the smell that was created in the refining of oil was dis sipated. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this was also one of the difficulties that the April 6, 1964. Page 1575

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... City of Transcona found itself in a few years ago in the creation of a sulphur plant on the borders of that municipality just across the boundary line in the Munici pality of Springfield, because the original plans of that particular industry were of such a nature, Mr. Chairman, that there was the likelihood of much of the vegetation in the Town of Transcona being subjected to adverse effects of sulphuric fumes .

It was only because of the interference -- which my honourable friend objects to -- of departments of government, that this particular industry had to revise its construction plans so that the chimney was raised a considerable degree in order to dissipate the pos sible adverse effect of the fumes so that they were more or less rendered harmless to the area. So I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it is necessary -- indeed a proper function of government, and departments of government to take a close look at what industry is doing,· and the manner in which they are locating. So I say, Mr.

Chairman, that as against the suggestion of my honourable friend to leave it to bnsiness and industry to go their merry way it's something like the TV script of "Leave it to Beaver" and I suggest that we can't leave it to beaver and that we cannot leave it to industry as well. Government has its function and that is why we set up Departments of Health, Depart ments of Environmental Sanitation, Departments of Planning and the likes ·of this , to look after the welfare, not only of industry itself, but the welfare of the citizens of the community. ·so I say, Mr.

Chairman, contrary to what my honourable friend has said that there must be governmental interference in industry. And as I listened to my honourable friend I wondered sometimes whether he hadn't got his speeches mixed up. At times he said there should be no government interference in planning and at other stages in his speech he said that it's most ess ential that we have governmental planning. I wonder what my honourable friend actually means.

My honourable friend says that we must foster a greater rate of economic growth as a so lution to unemployment and I suggest in this he might be correct, providing he carries along his reasoning to a more logical conclusion. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that insofar as the so lution for unemployment it's not merely a question of increasing economic growth at all, because we can use many fignres and many statistics to indicate economic growth without indicating the creation of more jobs ior the unemployed. We can say that our bank clearings have increased 10 percent.

We cim say that the number of cheques that have been processed in Winnipeg -- a financial centre in Western Canada -- the increase in that reflects our economic growth -- but it shouldn't, Mr. Chairman. This·does not creatP. any more jobs. So when we t:ilk about economic growth may I respectfully suggest to my engineering friend that he gives us more specifics as to what he means by economic growth. He says that unemployment reduces producitivity and the unemployed becomes a burden on the community.

"Which burden, " he says, "can only be solved by economic planning" -- after having said a sentence or two previously that we shouldn't have any interference by govern ment insofar as economic planning is concerned. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether. it's possi ble to have your cake and eat it -- I .don't think so.

So I would like to hear an explanation qr further expanse from my honourable friend as to exactly what line of reasoning that the Liberal Party, if indeed he is the spokesman, will take in aiding in the solution to the grave problem of unemployment that we have here in Manitoba, and indeed in the whole of the Dominion of Canada. He does admit, gives some indication that maybe a few more winter works programs might help us out. Then again I'm sure my ·friend would dismiss this because this is govern mental interference, I would suggest, with free enterprise.

I wonder exactly what his explana"'- tion would be in this regard. He says we have to create more industries in the Province of Manitoba in order to create more profit for industry. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the creation of greater profits for industry are a by-product of industry.

Although I don't know whether this would be acceptable, or this thesis would be . !!Cceptable to my friends across the way, but I do sugg'est that we should give serious consideration to the fact that the profit motive in the year 1964 whould be secondary to the creation of those things that are desirable , indeed necessary, for the fuller life of those who create and of the people of the community as a whole. My friend mentioned that he objected to what he· said was socialism, enuciated by certain so -called members of this House. Now who these "so- called" members are I don't know, Mr. Chairman.

I suggest that I might be one of these so-ca lled members of the House because I certainly do attempt to expound the philosophies of socialism -- democratic socialism, that is -- Page 1576 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... in this House. I make no apologies for it; abso lutely none . As a ma tter of fact I take rather great pride in having the opportunity -- indeed to me, the obligation of standing up in this House and saying that I am a dem ocratic socialist; that I am concerned with the progress of the human race ; I am concerned with the betterment of the human race and all of my fellow huma ns . That I do place , I do place gains for the populace ahead of gains for the individual free enterprise. Then my h()nourable friend as spokesma n for the Liberal Party talks about tax incentive to industry.

Now I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if he spoke of tax incentive for the creation of work for the unemployed I might find some agreement with him , but he talks of it as an incentive for the creation of more profit. He says to the government across the way, and maybe I can agree with him on this, at least to some degree, now don't you boys over there put into effect a sales tax because it will drive industry out of Manitoba.

Then he , I think rather erroneously, mentioned the fact that that will lower our comp etitive situation as between the provinces to the east and the west_ of us which obviously of course, as we all well know, have no sales tax at all. But I wonder if my honourable friend has spuken to a chap by the name of Walter Gordon who I understand is the Minister of Financ e in the liberal administration at Ottawa, when he is talking about the imposition of a sales tax.

I wonder if my honourable friend the Member for Burrows , would not take the time out from his busy life to get in touch with the Minister of Financ e and say to him , now look Walter , why did you put an additional four percent tax in respect of the construc tion industry as of the 1st of April of this year, because Walt er, are you not by this putting an additional burden on the cons truction industry in the Domi nion of Canada ? So if my honourable friend is going to start talking about sales tax, I respectfully suggest to him M-�.

Chair man, that he should start at home, that he should start with his co lleagues down at Ottawa and bring about a reduction of the price of housing, which is already too high, and ask Mr. Gordon, the Minister of Finance to change his budget and take off the now eight percent additional sales tax on the cons truction industry in the -Domi nion of Canada which will adverse ly affect not only the Province of Manitoba but the whole of the D�mi nion and those who are anxious to purchase homes across Canada. It's not my purpose Mr.

Chair man rea lly however, to stand here and be too critical of the Liberal Party, Jehoshaphat anybody, I think with any commo n sense, anybody who can do any reaso nable am ount of reas oning , can see by what they are doing insofar as the field of industry, they are going to get their heads in a noose in any case, anyway. But I do want to say to the Minister of Industry and Com merce of the Province of Manitob a, I certainly am not satisfied with the job that is being done here in the Province of Manitoba.

I had an opportunity during the recent recess of this House to travel down to Toronto and in my journey I thought that I should do a little bit of re ading. I couldn't purchase a Mickey Spilane or some of the better paperback novels so I thought that I would take a look at a brown edition called the Annual Report of the Department of Industry and Commerce, Province of Manitoba, for the year ending March 31 st 1963 . This to me Mr. Chair man was a thril ler, just equally as much as Mickey Spilane or !an Fle ming or many of the others . At least, it contained just as much guff.

Because if one will take a hold of this epistle and read it, and atte mpt -- and I say atte mpt advisedly -- to analyze it, they will see many thrilling sentences of how we are going forward in the Province of Manitoba. We will find in here Mr. Chair man, phrases deal ing with what we hope to do in the future . We will find in this epistle more references to the report on Manito ba's economi c future than you could shake a stick at. You know Mr. Chairman, I think it was a Godsend to the Department of Industry and Comme rce that Mr.

McMillan and his commi ttee brought down such a huge volume when they brought in the report on Manitoba's economic futu re. It gave an opportunity to the Department of Industry and Comme rce of saying so much and yet saying so little , because they could refer back to what Mr. McMillan and his commi ttee had to say in the 1000 page volume.

Just as an illust ration on page 26, dealing with the question of fertilizer -- and as I listened to the Honourable Minister this page came to my mind -- "the great dema nd" it says on page 26 , "the great demand for fertilizer products on Manito ba farms and the lack of fertilizer production facilitie s in Manitoba pointed to an area of opportunity. The sections research staff performed extensive work to est ablish the volumes and the types of different fertilizer ma terials April 6, 1964. Page 1577

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... used in the prairie provinces ." Mr. Chairman, !r emember my honourable friend the present Minister of Ind ustry and Com merce when he was sitting where the Honourable Member for La Verendrye is now sitting, about ten years ago, .making a very comprehensive speech ·-- I believe it was him, or at least one of his party -- on the necess.ity for the creation of a fertilizer plant here in the Province. of Manitoba. It might have even been the Honourable the First Minister that made this speech, I recall. And what has happened in the process ?

This socialist outfit that's operating the Province of Saskatchewan has scuttled free enterprisers here in the Province of Manitoba with the development, aided and abetted by free enterprise, of the potash resources in Saskatchewan. And, if memory serves me right, a survey that was made a number of years ago indicates that the potash reserves in the Pro vince of Manitoba are almost, if not actually, as great as those in the Province of Saskatchewan. So my honourable friend's report on IndL1stry and Com merce says , well now we have got to take a look at this situation.

And this is the tenor of all of the guff that we find in the report of the department of my honourable friend. Now Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that I am. not particularly criticizing the staff of the Department of Indu stry and Com merce. Possi bly given the correct leadership they would be able to come up with some pertinent factors in the development of industry in the Province of Manitoba.

I think if they were guided down the proper paths -- as indeed it's up to .Government and Ministers to guide -- I think that if they were guided down proper areas , then we in Manitoba may be able to get greater use out of their talent than we are getting at the present time. The Honourable the Minister of ;Industry and Com merce on the introduction of his esti mates here tonight mentioned to us the need for the development of export trade in the Province of Manitoba. I agree with him; but every province in Canada is going along the same garden path.

He. mentions of the need for the design institute, Heavens to Betsy, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that in the field of industry and commerce ev.ery single pro vince of this great Dominiol1 of ours is going down along the same garden path; but instead of going down the path Mr. Chairman together, they are going different ways , with the net result that each province is vying against each qther, and in doing this the whole impatus, the whole direction insofar as Canada as a whole is concerned is being scuttled and we are not developing to the degree that we should as a nation. So I say Mr.

Chairman, while appreciating -- (Int erjection) -- including Saskatchewan, yes, with this one exception though. Insofar as Saskatchewan is concerned, that socialist country as I ref erred to, has had a greater development industrialwise, than any other province in the Dominion of Canada; it has a lesser amount of, unemployment at the present time than any other province in the Dominion of Canada. Inde ed Mr. Chairman, indeed Mr. Chairman - (Interjection) -- no they are not pulling out -- indeed Mr.

Chairman, if the development and the advance of the Province of Saskatchewan continues under its present government they will be able to absorb all of the unemployed we have here in the Province of Manitoba. No, let's not sell them short in Saskatchewan.

I'm sure :-- Lord forbid -� that if the policies as advocated by the Liberal spokesman in the field of industry were perchance adopted by the election of a Liberal administration after April 22nd in the Province of Saskatchewan, not only would there be an exodus of the government in Saskatchewan, it would be a complete exodus of every man, woman and child in that great province. So Mr.

Chairman, I say to my honourable friend the Minister of In dustry and Com merce, we do appreciate the efforts that he is making in his department but I do suggest to him that those efforts are generally in vain, because. notwithstanding the statistics that he is able to produce to us of expanse in employment in certain sectors, as one reads his report, it mentions the fact that we have had .created 1, 200 additional jobs in the year under review, which I admit was a year ago, the Minister himself admits that accompanying this there was a considerable reduction in the number of job opportunities and jobs in the Province of Manitoba.

However, Mr. Chairman, I just want to close on this note. I• m interested in many aspects of industry. I take pride in the fact that it was my first suggestion -- I first made the suggestion here in this Assembly back in 1954 that we should have an industrial development fund. It's now a going concern. A former colleague of mine, Donovan Swailes, suggested that we should have an Agent General in Great Britain to aid in furthering European contacts with . ' Page 1578 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... the government of the old lands and the expanse of Canadian trade, or Manitoba trade. I notice that notwithstanding the lip-service my honourable friend now gives to the desirability and need of exports that we no longer have a particular representative in London looking after the interests of Manitoba. This has been changed. He is now back here. Export trade at one time was a grave concern to the Honourable the Minister of In dustry and Commerce. Apparently it doesn't mean too much today because we haven't got these spokesmen for Manitoba, as such, in London like we used to have.

My honourable friend the MiniSter of lndustry and Co mmerce at one time also said that it should be a natural follow-up, once we had a -representative in London that a natural follow-up would be another agent in the Midwest of the United States pos sibly down in New York. We don't hear very much from my honourable friend about this any longer. I don't know whether or not he's forgotten all about it. So, Mr. Chairman, I say to my friend that I don't believe all of the guff that is handed out to us by the Department of Indus try and Com merce.

I do believe that he has capable personnel, and given reasonable direction that maybe the economic advancement of Manitoba will be ·e nhanced. I' m sure my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Com merce will agree with me that we've had enough economic surveys over the past number of years to last us for centuries insofar as Manitoba is concerned. All that is needed is the will and determination to get along with developing the great Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ite m 1 -- Administration -- MR. FROESE: Before we leave Ite m No. 1, I'd like to make a few comments.

I couldn't be here earlier in the evening when the Minister made his presentation on his department and I don't know how much coverage he gave to Agriculture, as such, as an industry, because I still feel that here we have an industry that should receive it's proper share of attention. We have discussed this I suppose so mewhat in discussing the agricultural estimates, but I feel some of it is worth probably repeating and also heari il.g the Minister's comments on that. I mentioned a number of things at that time to which I did not receive answers, and I might be able to get them now.

I think when the agricultural estimates were considered I mentioned the matter of canning and freezing. We have in Manitoba two industries, especially in southern Manitoba, who deal in canning and producing crops of corn, beets, and I think in some instances tomatoes, beans , and so on, and these are processed and canned. I understand also that on some occasions they've also gone into freezing, but from what I know it hasn't been too successful. I questioned the Minister of Agriculture at that time just what are the variances in costs between canning and freezing.

When we have a crop that is canned, it can be stored for several years before it is finally sold to the consumer without being deteriorated. Not so with frozen foods . They have to be sold within a certain period of time otherwise you have to discard them. I would like to know from the Minister, having made some investigations on this matter.

As reported on Page 17 of the annual report that investigations dealing with various aspects of industrial projects were carried out on behalf of their sponsor, and they mentioned frozen vegetables in the report, so if the Minister could tell us som ething about it, I would be very interested. After all, this has been a matter of public discussion in southern Manitoba, and has also received special attention at special meetings where growers were contemplating going into the freezing of vegetables.

But it seems that you have to have more cash, more finances in order to first of all process the product; secondly, you have to sell it within a given period of time and therefore you have a greater risk involved than you have in canning, so that whether it is advisable if your financial means are limited to go into such a venture, or whether it isn't better just to stay with canning. I would also like to briefly touch on the sunflower industry.

We have a plant at Altona that has been in operation now for a good many years , and has processed sunflower seeds and has also developed a market for their oil, but in recent years large amount of the crop was exported to United States for bird feed. Now all of a sudden, apparently, this market has fallen to pieces. The Americans are now producing a lot of sunflowers on their own, and certainly the one cent a pound duty that the Canadian farmers have to pay, they�r� not subjected to that. As a result, they have a preference , and farmers today have great difficulty in dis posing of their crops.

The bulk of the seed that was produced last year is still held by the April 6, 1964. Page 1579

(Mr. Froese, cont 'd) .•. farmers, and while the vegetable oil industry at Altona is buying the seed, they have been rather slow in accepting delivery and, as a result, farmers are still left with their crop and a lot of them are in need of space to do their spring seed cleaning, and would like to get the cash as well. So that here again we thought we had a very good industry going, and all of a sudden we find that it's shot to pieces. It's a bad thing to happen, especially at this time when things are getting a little tighter in more than one respect, and to see a crop almost having to disappear.

We are fortunate in some respects that the new varieties that they have come out with are better yielders , and if this is crushed for oil, a farmer will be able to make a good return on his crop, but the other use that the seed was made of before seems to have disappeared for the time being anyway. We haven't been subjected to the rust in sunflower3 for the last couple of years so that the bulk of the crop and the yield has been relatively good. The seed that is presently being held by the farmers is of a very good quality, so that quality-wise we have a good product.

Sometime during the sessi on we had a resolution on the Order Paper dealing with the sugar beet industry, and here too I think the government should take more active

part in trying to get the industry expanded. After all, we are certainly not producing any large amounts in Canada so far. Actually, production is down from the regular 20 percent to roughly l5 percent, so that here is an area where we can stand a lot of expansion, and this is an area I think that the government should have tackled and given leadership. I feel that they did wrong in passing the resolution in the form that it was passed. Here, too, I would like to bring up the matter of freight rates.

I think the government, and especially this department, is dealing with the matter of freight rates and rail abandonm ent, and I would like to see the Department of Industry doing som ething about the freight rates on sugar going east. �f eel that this is working to the disadvantage of the Manitoba farmer and that we should assist in getting better rates on sugar. Also, probably doing a little more in the way of getting a national sugar policy in Canada.

It has been fully debated on the resolution that was on the order paper, but I feel because it comes under this department that it doesn't hurt to bring it up again and hear the :Minister of Industry give his views on the m.atter. I would also like to know in the matter of rail line abandonment, what is the situation? Are we making any headway on this? I know there is a line to be abandoned in my own constituency, and certainly I have an interest in this matter.

When I look at the report submitted by the department, on Page 47 I find a list of private and public investment in Manitoba, and I note from these figures that the industries or the amounts of money invested in industry for purposes that in thems elves bring about increased trade in reproducing cycles is only about one-third of the total amount invested. The total am ount given for 1962 is 612. 8 million, yet only one-third of that is actually of a nature that will bring about increased trade and is of a reproducing nature .

The other two-thirds of the 612 million is of a nature that will not bring in revenue but will be a dead asset, and therefore I think we should be concentrating especially on getting investments in those projects that are of a reproducing nature. I would like to discuss the matter of the Manitoba Development Fund, but I think I'll leave that until.later on when we discuss that specific item. MR. CHAffiMAN: Item 1 -- MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I just would like to make a very brief comme nt. !w ould like to thank the f!onourable Member for Burrows and the Leader of the New De mocratic Party for their com ments, and I can't really say that there is any sharp disagree ment in the main policies that they advocated tonight in the main rem arks that they made. I will take note of the advice they have given me and the things that they have urged us to consider and will certainly take them into account.

I would like to answer the specific quesUons that were brought up by the Honourable Mem ber for Rhine land, and I really do not think it would be right to re-open the debate which has been concluded on the ma tter of the sugarbeet industry and to make the comm ents that he invited me to do. The rules of the House apply in comm ittee equally as well as when we are in a formal sessi on and I think it would not be the right thing to engage in this debate again. With regard to canning and freezing, there is a technical report available on the freezing Page 1580 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Evans , cont'd) ... industry and I think that must be the report that my honourable friend is referring to as mentioned in the Department of Industry and Comme rce report, and I'll be glad to make a copy of this report availabl e to him . I'm not sure whether it can be retained perma nently or whether 'it must be returned. I think indeed we may be able to furnish the report and my honourable friend will be able to keep it. I hope it will be useful for him.

With regard to the sunflowe r industry, I'm interested to learn of the new varieties in which there is a greater yield of oil, and I think that may indeed be one of the hopeful signs in the situation my honourable friend describes . But beyond that too we should look for further export markets . Indeed if they are closi ng off in the United Stat es, we should do what we can to try to discover new export ma rkets which will take that place and certainly this import ant industry will com mand its share of the time as far as my staff and my own efforts are concerned.

With regard to the freight rates on sugar going east, I think certainly sugar is an impor tant product and if we can enlarge our ma rkets , say if our mari�:et area now go.es down to the head of the lakes and we could enlarge it by a few miles by giving lower freight rates in com petition with eastern sugar, then we must do that, and I will undertake to see what pos sibilities exist in that and what hope there would be of trying to get lower freight rates on that.

With regard to rail line abandonment, I'd like to tell my honourable friend tha t the government is working closel y with the Rail Line Abandon ment Asso ciation -- I think tha t's the correct title -- that has been set up, and while not a member of the association, has unde rtaken to provide, as we have always done, the maximum of assis tance to the assoc iation in the pro viding of economic inform ation and otherwise, and through the Manitoba Transportation Commi ssion we are keeping in close touch.

There is a close liaison between the Manitoba Government and the Tr'lnsportation Commi ssion and, in turn, the Transportat ion Commi ssion and the Rail Line Abandonment Asso ciation.

The Manitoba Governmen': policy was laid down some years ago, that where it can be shown that a line is une conomi c but must be maintaine d in service just for social services that it perfor ms, then we thought it was right that the Federal Government should provide subsidy for a line of that kind, and altoget her we believe that there must be the closest study, not only of the mathe ma tics of what the railway might gain or lose by abandoning a line , but what are 1he social cost s ?

What is involved in the lives of the people and what are the commi tments indeed for the provincial government in the matter of highways, schools and other things for which we are responsibl e . And so there isn't a very great deal to report at the mo ment in practical discussions with regards to specific lines, except to say this , that we are working closel y with the associ ation that has so recent ly been established. I think those were the main subjects that my honourable friend mentioned. MR.

CHAffiMAN: Item 1 -- passed; Item 2 -- passed; Item 3 -- passed; 4 -- passed; 5 -- passed; Item 6 -- passed; Item 7 -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chair man, I notice in the report that is before us , the continued growth -- I suppose you could call it that -- in the tourist industry. On Page 32 there 1s a graph there setting out the number of tourists in each year from 1950 to 1962 inclusive and the am ount of money that it is reported that they spent, and it appears to me , Mr. Chairman, that the growth is not nearly as great today as it was 10 or 12 years ago. It has consis tently increased by $2 million every year.

You can look on Page 32 -- 1951 is up $2 million over the year before -- pretty well keeps pace there at about $2 million -- no, 1 million apart -- and in the last year, still about $2 million. Then the number of dollars -- I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, how the government arrives at the number of·dollars that each tourist spends . In 1950 it is reported that 581, 000 tourists spent $22 million, which would be about $40. 00 per person, I take it; and in 1962, 12 years later, they spent less than $40 .0 0 -- 1, 355,2 73 spent $39,6 47, 000. 00.

Now it appears from this report that while the numbers of tourists has increased -- has doubled you might say, in 12 years -- they're not spending as much per person as they did 12 years ago. Everyone knows that the cost of living has gone up considerably, so we must assume then that they're spending iess time in Manitoba. My guess is that many of them are just going through -the province as rapidly as they can get there and going on som ewhere else to spend their vacation, because if a million and a third people are only spending $39. 00 each, they are not spending much time in Manitoba.

I �uppose that the figure for the number of April 6, 1964. Page 1581

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd) .•. . tourists here would include all of those that travel from Ontario through Manitoba and proceed into Saskatchewan and, by the same token, those that are coming from Saskatchewan and going east on Trans-Canada. Is there nothing We can do to encourage them to spend more time in Manitoba, because it is quite evident that they are not spending as much time and not spending as much money as they did 12 years ago. ' Now, Mr.

Chairman, two years ago, February 23rd, 1962, in the Manitoba Gazette of that day and the Information Services Department of that day, both issued a statement concer ning eight Manitoba localities that had been proclaimed historic sites, and a brief description was given in the Manitoba Gazette . Two of the sites were in the vicinity of Arden -- one referred to as Arden Campsite and another one -- I just can't recall here -- one was in Flea Island. Now then my honourable friend spoke of it both last year and the year before I believe, but the disappointing thing to me, M!-.

Chairman, is this that one of these historic sites, this burial ground has been completely dug up. It's right on the Arden ridge. The property I suppose has been sold, the gravel has all been dug up and there's nothing left to preserve , and yetthis

article from the Department Information Services tells us what they're going to do if they're not preserved. Well who is responsible for preserving them once they are declared? That's what I would like to know. There seems to be some misunderstanding between the municipal men and the government in this regard. It's all fine and dandy for the government to declare certain areas as historic sites and that such should be preserved, but who .is respon:. sible for preserving them? That's what I would like to know. The second paragraph of the propaganda sheet that I was reading from, M1'.

Chairman, says , "The Ho nourable Gurney Evans , Minister responsible for historic sites, said the eight listed included an abandoned fort with a history dating back to the late 17th century, two Indian battlegrounds and five Indian burial or camping grounds" -- and so on. Now I wonder if these have all been preserved and al.J. marked so that our tourists will know what they are and where they are. Mr. Chairman, I notice in the -- have we passed the -- no, Manitoba Development Fund -- I suppose I can talk about that when I get down there . We are principally on the tourist .trade now and maybe, Mr.

Chairman, we could have a com ment from my honourable friend on these two or three subjects that I have raised. MR. EVANS: ...•... .. of expenditures by tourists are taken from a questionnaire that we sent out to people who have visited the province and who have left an address that we can write to afterwards. We asked them and a fairly large percentage replied to give us a sample of their expenditures, and on the basis of the sample taken, the staff prepares estimates which are then later corrected or reconciled with the figures produced by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, and that is the main basis of it.

I think the decline in per capita expenditure isn't really because of the shorter stay in the province. The advent of camping and trailering �::s undoubtedly reduced the amount spent per person in the p:ovince and there are very large numbers of our visitors now come bringing their own accommo cation with them .and to a very large extent are able to cook their own food and reduce their expenditures that way.

I think my honourable friend is a little unkind to the province in relating a situation that doesn't exist, when he stands up and makes a bald statement that people are going through Manitoba as rapidly as possible. I recall my honourable friend making some quite insulting rem arks about our visitors from North Dakota a short time ago and I wish, if he doesn't like somethi)lg about the tourist business in Manitoba, he wouldn't stand up, and continuously give it a black eye .

I think we need people to boost the tourist industry and give us a hand to make people feel welcome here and not publish in the press and release publicly in a gen eral kind of way his opinion that Manitoba is such a place that any tourist would hasten past it and get out of here as quickly as p0ssible. I think we need my honourable friend's help, not his hindrance in developing the touris.t business ,here.

Historic sites are declared in a limited number of cases and it is a very difficult matter to police them sufficiently to ensure that the prohtbition against dism antling them or disfiguring them in any kind of a way is observed. It's a difficult matter and when one realizes that this includes York Factory for example, where it's almost impossible to give police supervision and a good many remote sites, my honourable friend can see the difficulty in trying to enforce the regulations that these sites are not to be disfigured, I' m at a loss at the mom snt -- I'm sorry Page l582 April 6, 1964.

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) . •. that I have forgotten the third point that my honourable friend -- would he care to remind me of the last point that he made? · MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I believe that my honourable friend is more or less twisting around some of the words that I uttered in my opening remarks . I said from the information that is available to us, it appears that the tourists are spending less time and less · money in the province from the figures that are before us.

He has suggested that the reason for them spending less money is likely due to the fact that they are sleeping in their own tents rather than sleeping in the hotels and motels -- could be , could be -- but what I said was that from the figures that were supplied by his own men in his own de1;>artment, it certainly indica ted that they were spending less time and less money. I hope that he is right, that they are spending more time here anyway and probably eventually they will spend more money.

As regards the historic sites, I don't believe that I got a reply as to who was responsible for preserving these certain local historic sites. I suggest that once they have been outlined and the boundaries of them es tablished, then someone should be responsible for fencing them in so that the trespassers can't get at them and so that the land cannot be sold. Apparently at Arden the land was sold.

It is rich in gravel -- the entire Arden ridge is rich in gravel and is pretty well for four or five miles there all been sold, and this one Indian burial ground has been completely sold and the gravel has all been removed. I was just citing this as an example of what can happen to these various areas unless some steps are taken to preserve them. I suggested too, Mr. Chairman, it is places like this that are of interest to our tourists.

I think my honourable friend will recall that just recently I wrote him -- well as a matter of fact I wrote to the Minister of Public Works not knowing exactly who I should write to in regard to a historical marker, and I got a reply from my honourable friend. And while he did suggest that the government was quite willing and prepared to give the local community all the research they wanted in this regard, they felt that the responsib ility for placing a historical marker must rest with the local community and perhaps he is right. I was referring to Addie McKenzie who was one of the sod-busters of this province.

Grant McEwan refers to him as one of the twelve sod-busters and I suggested that a suitable place for this his toric marker would be in a new roadside park that is going up on -- well I think it's pretty well established there now on land that he for merly owned, and suggested that by reason of this fact and by reason of the fact that it was right on the highway, this would be an ideal location for such a marker. Now I would like to ask my honourable friend if the local community would need per missi on from th.3 government to put up a marker of this nature if they decided to do so .

Could they put it up and erect it in the roadside park that is just presently under construction and would they assist them perhaps in developing a suitable marker for this occasion ? M.R EVANS: I will undertake to look into the cases that my honourable friend mentioned of the damage to these historic sites and take up the question of the preservation. It is an important matter. It's something that I have a good deal of sympathy with because I do feel that we may be losing something that is not only a tourist attraction, but it's something of our own cultural heritage.

It's a rather divided authority at the present time between departments with respect to historic sites . If I am correct, the Provincial Secre tary has responsibility in this regard and with regard to the marking of the sites and declaring them to be historic sites. Then the Historic Sites Advisory Board is an advisory body whicl1 simply advises as to the historic nature of each site and its priority in being preserved.

I think the reply that I sent to my honourable friend was about along this line, that in the order of priorities ass igned to these things by the Historic Sites Advisory Board, they felt that the local settlers in the individual areas , while they were very significant indeed, came some dis tance down in their particular order of priorities because they didn't feel that they could undertake a program of recom mending sites which would commemorate the leading pioneers in each separate district of the province. !don't think there was any lack of sympathy on the historic sites board for thecaseof Mr. McKenzie.

Then as far as lam aware, there is certainly no requirement on the part of the local authorities for putting up a sign of their own, or a marker on their own local site . I would think it would be per fectly proper for any local organization to comme morate anyone they liked by setting aside a site in any manner that they liked. Itwould simplynot be possible to declare it to be an official site however under the Historic Sites Advisory Board's recommendation or whatever you want to call it.

So I think while it's not completely satisfactory or doesn 't completely cover the question that my honourable April 6, 1964. Page 1583

(Mr. Evans , cont'd) ... friend has in mil).d. I will undertake to re-examine this question of historic sites, their marking, and his suggestions concerning the possible fencing or other means to protect them. That's the best I can indicate just now . MR. TANC HAK: I would like to say a !ew words on this Tourist Development Branch. I did mention before under another estima te that I did not think that the public is getting value for money spent in promo ting tourist trade.

I noted that every year except this year there is a drop of $23, 000 in this department; but every year in the past there has been an increase in the app ropriation for this department.

But if you take this same table on page 32 -- which was referred to by the Member from Gladstone -- if you take the last four years from 1959 to 1962, and comp ute increase in tourists entering Manitoba, you will notice that in the last four years, there was an increase of 152, 000 tourists entering Manitoba, but if you take the four years previous from 1955 to 1958 and compute the increase in those four years you 'll note that the increase in tourist entry into Manitoba, or travel, was 174,0 00 . There 's quite a difference.

If you divide it by four years in either case, the average increase per year in the previous four years was 43, 000 tourists entering Manito.ba, while in the last four years there was an increase of only 38, 000 tourists in Manitoba.

Therefore, I would say that the increase in the amount appropriated for this is not justified, it is not bringing the results that it should now, and I did mention previously that I think it is due entirely to the wrong kind of publicity-- ma ybe the wrong kind of advertising-- as I suggested several weeks ago on that little map that the Min ister studied, we shO\Ved only two entries into the Province of Manitoba, two good highways, and I' m sure that would discourage tourists from entering the Province of Manitoba.

I would say that -most of this tourist talk, and the increase in tourists that we hear so much, is just propaganda. I do not think that the government is justified in taking so much credit for a great increase in the tourist travel because this government table itself of statistics proves that the tourist travel into Manitoba has slowed considerably by about at least 5, 000 pers ons per year. Maybe the Minister has some explanation for that. If he has, I would like to hear it. MR. EVANS: I can give my honourable friend some ·more recent information about the number of tourists.

The total number of tourists in Manitoba has been increasing steadily in the past few years. In 1957, 1, 060, 252 tourists, including 62 1, 000 Americans who visited the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-59
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 59.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c49eec1cd223a991232de65528907c5f6f6bd43

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