Manitoba Hansard — 17 April 1972 (Sitting 42, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XIX No. 42 2:30p.m., Monday, April 17th, 1972. Fourth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Affiliation ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Manitoba ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 Bl RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Manitoba BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon, Man. BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 CHURCHILL Gordon Wilbert Beard lnd. 148 Riverside Drive, Thompson, Man.

CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick N.D.P. 1 - 174 Nassau Street, Winnipeg 13 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow N.D.P. Cranberry Portage, Manitoba FORT GARRY L. R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. lnez Trueman P.C. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 GIMLI John C. Gottfried N.D.P. 44 · 3rd Ave., Gimli Man. GLADSTONE James Robert Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Manitoba INKSTER Sidney Green, O.C. N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox N.D.P. 244 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Manitoba LA VERENDRYE Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. LOGAN William Jenkins N.D.P. 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg 3 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Manitoba MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Box 185, Morris, Man. OSBORNE lan Turnbull N.D.P. 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C.

Manitou, Manitoba POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski N.D.P. 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Room 248, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RADISSON Harry Shafransky N.D.P. 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 RHINELAND Jacob M. Froese Soc. Cr. Box 40, Winkler, Manitoba RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg 8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. P.C. 250 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Manitoba ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Manitoba ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard N.D.P. 602- 245 Provencher Ave., St.Boniface 6 ST. BONIFACE Hon. Laurent L. Desjardins N.D.P. 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 ST. GEORGE William Uruski N.D.P. Box 580, Arborg, Manitoba ST. JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, O.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson N.D.P. 23- 500 Burnell St., Winnipeg 10 ST. VITAL D. J. Walding N.D.P. 31 Lochinvar Ave., St. Boniface 6 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam N.D.P. Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SOURIS-KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Manitoba SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 STURGEON CREEK Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Manitoba THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde N.D.P. 228 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 THOMPSON Joseph P. Borowski N.D.P. La Salle, Manitoba TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Manitoba WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson N.D.P. 681 Banning St., Winnipeg 10 WINNIPEG CENTRE J. R. (Bud) Boyce N.D.P. 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 WOLSELEY

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:3 0 o'clock, Monday, April 17, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS 1043 MR. SPEAKER : I should like to direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery where we have 70 st udents of Grade 9 standing of the Isaac Newton School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Ferens and Mr. Armstrong. The School is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Education. We also have 50 students of Grade 5 standing of the Britannia School. These st udents are under the direction of Mr. Humphreys and Mr. Barnes .

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. James . On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. MR. SPEAKER: Pres enting Petitions, Reading and Receiving Petitions, Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, Ministerial Statements . The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(T ranscona): I wonder if the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge may have a . . . report . . . MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): I move that the report of the first meeting of the Public Accounts Committee be rec eived. MR.

PAULLEY: Okay, it's not required ... according to the clerk. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial statements , tabling of re ports . The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerc e. STATEMENT HON.LEON ARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)( Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief s tatement with regard to runoff conditions in the province of Manitoba with respect to the Red and Ass iniboine Rivers and I have copies here for members, all mem bers of the House and of the press gallery.

Precipitation, coupled with warm temperatures over the last few days has res ulted in rises in stage on the Red and Assiniboine Rivers , particularly in the Winnipeg area, some what greater than had been anticipated at the time of the last forecast on April 5th. It is not expected that the Red River will rise above bank full or bank level capacity, north of the International Boundary unless above normal precipitation occurs in the next ten days. The Red River Floodway was put into operation on the afternoon of April 16th in accordance with the rules of operation for the floodway.

It is expected that flows will have to be diverted down the floodway 9ver the next ten days with the result that stages in Winnipeg will be between 16 feet and 17 feet city datum at the James Avenue pumping st ation during that period as com pared to the first flood stage of 18 feet city datum. The Portage diversion is being used to divert water from the Assin iboine River to Lake Manitoba to prevent ice jams between Portage la Prairie and Headingley. The heaviest pre cipitation last week was centered in the vicinity of Grand Forks with considerably lesser amounts in the Canadian portion of the Red River basin.

The res ulting rise in stage at Grand Forks will cause the flood stage at that location to be exceeded . However, as this peak moves downstream it is expected that it will flatten appreciably with only slight prospect of bank full stages being reached along the reach of the Red River between Emerson and the floodway in let. The situation referring to another area Mr . Speaker, the situation on the Souris River remains the same as reported on April lOth, despite the snowfall in the last 24 hours in parts of the basin.

Flooding of low lying valley lands from the International Boundary to Hartney is expected to continue over the next two to three weeks . Further reports will be issued Mr. Speaker, prepared by the Water Resources Branch of my department, should significant changes in the pattern of spring runoff become apparent. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Other Ministerial Statements .

1044 April 17, 1972 TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LAURENT L, DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs)(St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the annual report of the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR. SPEA KER: Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourabl e Minister of Transportation. HON.

PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways)(Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 24, The Proceeds of a Contract Disbursement Act, 1972. (recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor) HON. A, H. MACKL ING, Q, C. (Attorney-General )(St. James) introduced Bill No. 29

an Act to amend the Unsatisified Judgment Fund Act. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Por tage la Prairie) introduced bill No. 19,

an Act to amend The Development Corporation Act. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden) introduced Bill No. 28

an Act to amend The Lord's Day Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I just rise on a point -- we haven't had an opportunity of course of taking a look at this bill, but there is a Federal, as I unders tand it, a Federal Lord's Day Act and if this refers to that, then of course, Your Honour, it would be beyond the place of this Assembly to deal with the same. There may be a Provincial Lord's Day Act, I am not positive of that as of this moment. MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions . The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering, Sir, ... MR.

SPEAKER: May I rest the mind of the Honourable Minister of Labour at ease - until I have it, until I first receive your introducing it, no one knows what's in it, so how can we adjudicate on a procedure which we haven't had? MR. PAULLEY: I appreciate, Mr .. .. MR. SPEAKER: And I'm not going to debate the issue. MR. PAULLEY: But I am not debating, Mr. Speaker and I appreciate . the only question I do raise here is that it's only a federal matter then we should not . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: Oral questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q, C. (Leader of the Opposition)(River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister - has the Manitoba Bar Association or the Canadian Bar Association or one of its committees forwarded to the government a submission in connection with the Succession Duty Act that's before us? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I cannot reply with certainty that they have or have no t. However I will check with my colleagues, the Minister of Finance and the Attorney-General to see whether that is so. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. If in fact they have filed such a submission would the First Minister undertake to have it submitted to the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (C hurchill): My question is to the First Minister. I wonder if he could advise us if the Manitoba Telephone System and the CBC have completed their dis cussions on bringing TV to the small northern communities in the north? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon ourable member for giving me notice of the question. I can advise the honourable member that as he knows , there has been relatively a lengthy negotiation between the CBC and the Telephone System and other agencies of the

April 17, 1972 1045 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) . . . . . Provincial Government and it now appears as though the likelihood is that there will be television service, live television service made available to, I would approximate 9 or 10 communities in the north before the end ofl 973 -- and 3 or 4 of these communities I believe are slated for TV service before the end of this year; the com munities being - Norway House, Cross Lake, Nelson House, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, all be fore the middle of next summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J, ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister -- sometime ago I asked the Honourable First Minister while speaking on a matter of personal grievance, whether or not the First Minister would not undertake a full investigation of the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood situation, at least to the extent of the pro vincial involvement. Can the Minister now indicate whether or not he has any intention of con ducting such an inquiry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know on what basis the Crown in the right of the Province of Manitoba would undertake such an investigation inasmuch as the affairs of people of Treaty Indian status come under the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada. How ever, inasmuch as the Provincial Crown has made certain grants to the Indian Brotherhood, it is felt that it would be possible for the provincial government to arrange for an auditing to be made.

However, there again, because the major part of the monies involved are Federal in source, it is felt that it would be relatively insignificant as to - if the province were to go it alone in terms of any auditing. I can report to my honourable friend that arrangements are being made with the Government of Canada so that in the event that auditing inspection is carried out by Government of Canada auditors that they would also arrange to do an audit of whatever provincial monies might be involved incidentally thereto. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J, EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. It relates to the filling of a vacancy of the Crop Insurance Agent at Glenboro. Can the Minister advise this House how many applications were received by his department in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(Lac du Bonnet): Well not having had notice of the matter, Mr. Speaker, I am not even aware that there is a vacancy, so I will undertake to check that for my honourable friend. MR. EINARSON: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker.

I thank the Minister for his answer and while doing so, could he undertake to find out how many of the applications were interviewed? MR. USKIW: Yes. Would the Honourable Member repeat the last few words? MR. EINARSON: Would the Honourable Minister also investigate as to how many of the applications of the total number received, how many of the total number were interviewed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

In view of the statement just made, I wonder is the Provincial Government planning on asking Ottawa to conduct a judicial inquiry not an in-House bookkeeping which has already been apparently done by the Federal Indian Affairs Department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr.

Speaker, the only communication that the Government of Manitoba has had with the Government of Canada in this respect is relative to the auditing of Federal and Provincial grant monies involved and in that respect I have already said that I have advised the Indian Brotherhood that the province would welcome any auditing service being carried out by the Government of Canada to include provincial money. Insofar as the other part of the Honourable Member's question is concerned we have made no such request. MR. BOROWSKI: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Premier consider asking the government to have-- if it's an audit- a public audit, not an in-House or better still, a public inquiry where witnesses could testify, that is Chiefs and Indians from Reserves? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, in that respect it is open to any citizen to ask the Government of Canada to undertake such a course of action; so far as the Province of Manitoba is concerned I do not believe that would be a proper, nor advisable course of action.

1046 April 17, 1972 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CR AIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. Can the Minister confirm or otherwise that the effects of Bill 62 passed last year in the Legislature now mean a 6. 8 mill increase in the School Division No. 1 tax rate? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. CRAIK: A supplementary, will the Minister undertake to discover if this is a fact and advise the House? MR.

HANUSCHAK: At such time as all necessary data will be available I would be happy to oblige. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. WILLIAM URUSKI (St. George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Acting Minister of Mines and Resources and Environmental Management. I wonder if the Minister has information as to-- the Water Resources Branch has information as to the present levels on Lake Winnipeg and whether or not they have any predictions as to the oncoming levels in the future months on Lake Winnipeg. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR.

EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't have any information as of today or as of yesterday. I do have some readings that were taken at Gimli which is the one point on Lake Winnipeg where we do have daily readings. There are measurements taken at other points, but not as frequently. The information I have was that on Monday, April lOth the lake level at Gimli was 715 .61; on April llth it was 715. 48; on April 12th it was 715.49 and on April 13th it was 715. 62.

Our predictions on the coming months indicate that as of the middle of May, that is about May 15th the level should be 715. 9 and in the middle of June it whould be 716. 2, June 30th it should be 716. 4, July 15th it should be 716. 3. Of course, all of these are well below the level of maximum regulation which is suggested above-- I'm sorry-- above level of 715 which would be the maximum allowed for the Manitoba Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Minister whether the department is considering setting up other areas of water metering apparatus in other areas around Lake Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are measurements taken of the lake at 12 points around Lake Winnipeg as I indicated. However these are sent in a little less frequently but I will endeavor to investigate this matter to see whether we can take more frequent readings at places other than Gimli. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could indicate whether he is quoting water levels or ice levels? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask him if he could offer any explanation as to the reasons why the auto mobile that was used by two convicts to escape from Stony Mountain Penitentiary last week was not insured as reported in today's Tribune? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I would have thought that the honourable member would have, if he is aware that a motor vehicle had been stolen and utilized by the prisoners escaping from Stony Mountain Penitentiary, that he would have also been aware of the fact that the vehicle was a vehicle apparently owned by the Federal Government, and the Federal Government have their own arrangements in that respect, which cut across constitutional lines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): I wonder if I might ask the Minister then if Mr.

Drysdale whose fur farm was damaged by the automobile can expect some compensation from either the Federal Government or this government for the damage suffered at his farm. MR. SPEAKER: Order . . . the question. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

April 17, 1972 1047 MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (F ort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I've got a ques tion for the Minister of Public Works arising out of a statement on the radio today by Mr. Roger Newman in the course of a commercial for the Department of Industry and Comme rce. Can the minister advise when construction is due to get under way on the Provincial Government's high rise building slated for the corner of Kennedy and Broadway Avenue? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. RUSSELL DOERN ( Minister of PublicWorks)(Elmwood): Within a few months, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Can the Minister advise whether student's summer employment may be made available through that construction pro ject? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: I think that's a possibility, Mr. Speaker, but I can't hold up too much optimism in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

Is it a re flection of government policy that local car dealers were not given the opportunity to tender on an order for something like 6, 000 tires for Manitoba Hydro? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, obviously I'll have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. When you are taking the levels of Lake Winnipeg, would you include Lake Winnipegosis in those levels? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce.

MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can advise honourable members that lake levels are taken of all major lakes of Manitoba from time to time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A week ago I asked for the- in the flood reports if they'd include the Valley River. Could the Minister indicate to the House the reason for this oversight again today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'll endeavor to provide that information for the honourable member and other members of the House tomorrow on the Valley River.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I should like to direct my question to the First Minister, and ask the First Minister if it is the intention of the Cabinet to pay a visit to Western Flyer plant in Morris in the near future? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was asked a few days ago as to whether or not such a tour of the plant might be arranged, and I agreed to take it as notice and to discuss it with my colleague to see if that can be arranged.

I rather suspect that while the Member for Morris would welcome such an event, it is questionable whether his colleagues would be par ticularly anxious to visit a growing industry, a larger part of which is in the public domain? MR. SPEAKER: Order. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: ... last part of the Minister's reply was out of order. But my question was asking the Minister if the Cabinet intended to visit the plant? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, my question i.s for the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and it is to do with the amount of time Dr. Briant, the head of the MDC is spending on the job. In view of the fact that Dr. Briant leaves for Montreal nearly every Thursday for his home, and returns to . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member is debating, not asking a question. Does the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie wish to rephrase his question? MR. G. JOHNSTON: In view of the fact that Dr.

Briant is spending a two or three day work week in Manitoba, does the Minister consider that he•s devoting enough time to his full time job?

1048 April 17, 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the government is satisfied with the performance of Dr. B;riant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the MDC paying all expenses for the Doctor's trip back home every week? MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie with another supplementary and the last one. MR, G.

JOHNSTON: Would the Minister advise the House as to how many of his former students Dr. Briant has hired into the MDC? MR. SPEAKER: The question is irrelevant to this House. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Education; it relates to the school matter at Dunrea, Ninette, and particularly Cartwright, that have been considerably in the news in the last while. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister agreed to attend a meeting with the community of Cartwright, and the School Division Board. He suddenly declined to accept the invitation.

I wonder if he would tell us why? MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder if he can inform the House whether the representative of Manitoba on the Fish Marketing Board reports to the government periodically? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Yeah, yeah. You know, Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the Government of Manitoba has the right to appoint one member to this board, but once he is appointed he is a member of that board. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR, SPIVAK: Has there been any communication about any trouble concerning the Fish Marketing Board to the government by this representative? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR, EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any trouble which is referred to by the Honourable Member. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Finance; it relates to the province's offer of assistance to the City of Winnipeg for the purchase of transit buses.

Could the Minister tell the House whether or not this contribution is conditional that is, is it conditional upon the purchase of the buses from one specific supplier, tlnt is Flyer Coach Industries? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q, C. , (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, we have not even met with the city in connection with this whole problem. We were asked whether in this year the city could expect to have any grant or contribution towards their requirement s under transit, and I responded because I had pressure from the City to respond in some way.

I responded by saying that I would believe that they would have a right to ex pect the same amount, or at least the same amount as they got in the last year, and I have not discussed this with any person of the City; I expect that we'll be doing that in the next few days, and we will then find out more about their plans and their problems and be able to discuss them. I would not want at this stage to discuss policy items that I have not yet reviewed with the City itself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Crescentwood. MR.

CY GONICK (Crescentwood ): I have a question of the Minister of Health and Social Development. Has the Department of Health and Social Gevelopment concluded its negotiations with the' dentists? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. RENE E, TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): No. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. GONICK: A second question to the Minister. Is the department now negotiating

April 17, 1972 1049 (MR. GONICK cont•d). with the doctors of Manitoba with regard to their fee sched- ules? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Health and Social Development and/or the Manitoba Health Services Commission we can say are negotiating on an on-going basis with the many professions and including the medical profession. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. GONICK: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question . . .

Have the doctors de manded a 9 1/2 percent increase in their fees which would bring the average income of doctors up to $40, 000 a year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. I wonder if you could advise the House as to which division in whole, or in part, in Greater Winnipeg will be used to set the Greater Winnipeg special levy? the school division with the lowest per pupil expend iture above grant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. PETER ADAM (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Minister of Mines and Environmental Management. I was wondering if he can indicate whether the water coming in from the United States is tested for its purity? And also I understand, I would -- I think he'll have to take notice of this question -- approximately 80, 000 tons of chloride is dumped into the Red River every year . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member is stating, instead of asking a question. Would he make his question? MR, ADAM: I would rephrase it then. Could the Minister indicate whether the salt dumped into the Red River is polluting that river? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite sure at which location the honourable member, that the honourable member has in mind. However, I will take the question as notice and attempt to obtain more information from him directly. MR. SPEAKER, The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. -- (Interjection) -- Thank you.

Has the Minister had any discussion with management of Glendale Mobile Homes at Morris, Manitoba, in respect to opening a plant again? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Mines and Resources and Environmental Management, supplementary to the question asked by the Member of Ste. Rose. If he . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. JORGENSON: If he discovers, if he discovers that there are impurities in the waters coming from the . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. If the question is hypothetical, hypothetical . . . The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct another question to the Minister of Education. I wonder if he would undertake to find out which school division in Greater Winnipeg expends the least per pupil, and which spends the most, and inform the House at his earliest convenience? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, when that information becomes known to us, I would be happy to share it with the Honourable Member for Emerson and with other members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. Could the Honourable Minister inform us as a result of the New Democratic Party Conference over the weekend whether they are not prepared to remove education tax off farm land?

1050 April 17, 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, there is no question that decisions that are made at conventions of our Party have a great deal of influence on the government of this province. By the same token I must say that neither was I present, nor do I know what they discussed, and the Member for Rhineland knows more than I do about what was discussed over this week- - end . A MEMBER: He was there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I was surprised to hear the comments made by the Honourable Member for Rhineland because I, as Minister of Education, certainly am not aware of any New Democratic Party Conference on Education having been held last weekend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. GIRARD: . . . to the Attorney-General. I wonder if he could advise the House as to whether or not it is legal for car rental agencies to discriminate against people who are under 21? MR.

SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is well aware that it is not correct as a procedure to ask for a legal opinion. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Could he advise whether there are any university professors who are also mem bers of the Manitoba Legislature who are making $40, 000 a year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Universities and Colleges. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Colleges and Universities)(Seven Oaks): It is an interesting question.

I would be very interested to know whether the honourable member has some answers which I'm not aware of. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if we have concluded the oral questions, I wonder whether or not I may have the permission of the House to make a comment or two regarding procedures in Estimates, and also make reference to the meeting that was held this morning in Public Works -- not to discuss details -- if I have that permission of the House I would like to say a word or two. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I am sorry. My colleague, the Member for Inkster, said that I mentioned Public Works, it's really by public accountants. The committee rose this morning and there was no decision made as to when the committee will meet again. May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, to members of the committee that the committee will meet again next Monday morning at 10:00 o'clock in order to continue the consideration of the public accounts. And also, Mr.

Speaker, the other day, dealing with the Order of Procedures, I mentioned that the Capital Supply and Finance would follow the deliberations of Agriculture and Co-operatives. I am now informed that it appears as though all the information that may be required has not yet been assessed, and subject to a severe reprimand from my honourable colleagues opposite, I would then intend to call Public Works and then Highways unless, in the interim, the information dealing with Capital Supply is available. I hope that honourable mem bers will agree with me on this.

There isn't, of course, Mr Speaker, any absolute set pro cedure, but we have been trying to accommodate all members of the House as to how we will follow the Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, we don't intend to raise any objection to the government's position as to the course of action they want to follow in dealing with the remain der of the Estimates but in all fairness I hope that the House Leader will at least provide us with some advance notice when we go into Capital Supply.

I would think at least 24 hours notice would be required in order for us to prepare for that particular debate . If the House Leader can give us that assurance, we have no objections to him changing the batting order again which has been pretty frequent in the last few weeks. But we understand the difficulties of the

April 17, 1972 1051 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) . government at times and we• re prepared to co-operate with them as much as possible in facilitating the business of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: If I may, Mr. Speaker, in answer to my honourable friend it is in the spirit of co-operation that I rose in my place at this particular time to give ample notice to my friend and I most assuredly will accommodate all members of the House by as much ad vance notice as I can as to when Capital will be dealt with. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance, the amendment thereto by the Leader of the Opposition and the amendment thereto by the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I understand that I am really speaking by leave of honourable members of this House and so I shall be brief.

When I concluded my remarks at 5:30 on Friday, I was at that point where I was putting forward to honourable members opposite, the argument that in terms of the province• s population relative to populations of other provinces, relative to per capita income levels in other provinces that Manitoba's posi tion in terms of the general economy, in terms of our budget size, in terms of our debt and de ad weight debt loans etc. , that Manitoba• s position was healthy in every important respect.

The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition took a good deal of time to draw certain com parisons between Manitoba's budget and financing as compared with that of Ontario and I be lieve that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition suggested that Ontario's budgetary increase in terms of net general expenditures for this current fiscal year was an increase of about 4 - I believe he said 4. 5 percent - over last year's budget in that province.

What the Leader of the Opposition did not point out is that Ontario midway through the year introduced an in terim or supplementary budget and so the Leader of the Opposition was drawing a comparison between the regular year's budget for 1972-73 with a revised interim budget introduced half way through the previous fiscal year in that province and no wonder he got a relatively low figure of only 4. 5 percent increase.

Had he compared the regular year's budget at the begin ning of each fiscal year for 72-73 as compared with the last regular one, 71-72, the increase would be more in the order of 9 percent - just about double instead of the figure of 4. 5 that he used. In fact, Mr. Speaker, it's rather interesting that when one looks at the pattern of size of budget increases in Ontario one sees that for the past six or seven years it has been a very pronounced degree of escalation.

For example in 1966 the increase in Ontario's current account expenditure was 16 percent over the previous year; the next year 22 percent increase; the year after that 25 percent increase; 1969 - 19 percent increase; 1971 - a 20 percent in crease and so on and this is taken from the 1972 budget address of the Minister of Finance in that province. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is in many ways an exercise in futility, misleading in important respects to simply make stark simple reference to the pattern of increase in a government financing without going as well then into a debate as to the new programs that are introduced, the new services that are being provided and other non-discretionary cost increases that might be involved.

In Manitoba's case, our pattern of increase in current account expenditure has been taken on the whole over the past several years lower than that of Ontario's and I suppose it is in the normal order of things that if we have been behind other provinces in the rate of increase in spending, the providing of services, there comes a day when there is a cumulative catching up effect and that they would account for the other province starting to increase its spending at a faster rate. Otherwise, Mr.

Speaker, how does one account for the fact that in the first few years of the Conservative Government of Manitoba after the defeat of the Liberal Progressive administration in 1958, following 1958 there was a very dramatic surge increase in the amounts of government spending in Manitoba and the justification offered by the Tories at that time and which I sat on the other side and listened to was that they had so much new programming and that much catching up to do because of the relative under expenditure in this province in the decade of the 50's. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are in our province still a number of areas both geographic and in terms of policy as well where there is some catching up to do. That is why we have in creased the level of expenditure for resource and northern development in a very dramatic way and we've also had to increase the amount of monies available for programs which were introduced by this government and which we feel are meeting a very real social and economic need. There was when we came to office a Consumer Bureau but it was skeletal and we have

1052 April 17, 1972 (MR. SCHREYER cont•d) . . . . . had to take steps to give some greater capacity to this Con sumer Protection Bureau so that has cost additional monies. We certainly do not apolo gize for that, we defend it. We've also passed The Lan dlord and Tenant Act which again we feel meets and is meeting a real social and economic need - that entails a certain amount of expenditure as well. We have established a Human Rights Commission; we have passed con siderable legislation in the area of the extension of civil and human rights and that all has in cidental increased costs effects as well.

The Legal Services Society Act, provision of legal aid to a degree far greater than was the case before - that involves additional expenditure as well -w e defend that. We introduced the Criminal In juries Compensation Act, new expenditure is involved - we defend that as well.

We have provided for court communicators and for an increase in the level of counselling to people living in remote native communities in order to help them better. adjust to work opportunities and to help in seeking out of jobs and employment opportunities - all this does carry with it attendant costs which were not shouldered before but because they weren't certain social needs were going unmet.

We have in the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management in the past couple of years undertaken new programs which are helping to provide much better trans portation access to many, many remote northern communities - that costs money - we defend it. We've established Crown corporations with respect to logging, timbering with respect to mineral exploration - all of this is in the incipient stages but it's all worth while certainly in the long run. That costs money, seed money in the initial instance - we defend that as well. These, Mr.

Speaker, are only a few of the examples of where additional public money has gone in order to meet unfulfilled social need and to bring greater prospects of development to frontier and resource areas. We established public auto insurance and again in the incipient stages there was a dir ect cost in terms of manpower, man-yea rs, in terms of actual dollars , in establishing that.

Now that it has been established there can be no question in the minds of most people that suggest that this is the kind of program which will be not only well received but which will be of very long duration in our province, in fact I cannot conceive that in the future it will be otherwise. We have taken direct action to increase the stock of public housing, remote housing that is so much needed by people in lower income families, people in remote communities that do not have the wherewithall to find decent accommodation.

That has required additional staff man-years; that has required additional public monies; all of that we defend. Winter works. We could have sat idly by and not initiated programs to provide for more jobs during the winter season and because unemployment in our country was at a very high and unaccept able level, we felt it did require unusual effort, extraordinary measures to combat and so that explains in a nutshell, Sir, the reason for winter works programming which has permeated every region of this province and most of the individual communities of our pro vince.

The number of communities that have taken advantage of winter works grants for building new community facilities, or repairing old ones; agricultural society buildings; local recreation facilities; repair of schools, hospitals, pensioners homes -- all of these things require additional staff man-years in order to administer and additional monies to provide in the way of grants so that this work and these jobs can be generated in the winter; these things we recommended and we defend .

One cannot muster a program building in ex cess of 3, 000, 4, 000 units of housing per year without an increment in administrative capacity staff man-years , public monies but we have no regrets whatsoever as to the necessity and advisability of those programs . So the members opposite when they talk about increases in expenditures really ought to be doing two other things as well and one is to look behind the dollar signs to see just what new programs and social needs are being met and also to run a comparison with other pro vinces.

And I say to the Leader of the Opposition that when he compares the size of Manitoba's civil service, when he did that in the first instance several months ago and when it was demonstrated to him that the size of Manitoba's civil service; that the only fair way to make any comparison was on the basis of how many civil servants per thousand population and when this is compared all across our country one sees that Manitoba's ratio of civil servants per thousand population is third or fourth lowest in the country. That ob:viously doesn't take any genius to know which province will have the highest

April 17, 1972 1053 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) . . . . . ratio of civil se rvants per thousand- it will be Prince Edward Island- a population of 110, 000, it has 34 civil servants per thousand population. Manitoba has 12 per thousand population. Ontario has almost as many civil servants as Prince Edward Island has population. I don't know if honourable members realize that . Ontario has -- but that is again -- a simplistic moron would try to make something big of that but .... A MEMBER: And others will, too. MR. SCHREYER: ... in fact, in fact, Mr .

Speaker, Ontario's total ci vil service of 71, 000 people, 71, 000 civil servants , three-quarters of the entire population of the province of Prince Edward Island but that has to be put alene:side the total population of Ontario which is in excess of seven million people and so in terms of civil se rvants per thousand population Ontario has the lowest in Canada although in absolute terms it has the highest - and all this is understandable. lt' s pretty hard to gauge just what the sort of optimum defensible level or ratio of civil servants per thousand is for a population that is in the range of under a million people, between one and two million and in excess of five million where certain economies of sca le become very much obvious.

Mr. Speaker, did you notice, Sir, what the Leader of the Opposition did in his address the other day? Having been refuted with respect to Manitoba's ratio of civil servants per thousand which compares very favorably with all other provinces, he then invented a new com posite index which the Dominion Bureau of Statistics doesn't have but which the Leader of the Tory party has and that is combined provincial plus municipal civil servants and in that re spect, Mr. Speaker. the province exercises a very limited control and influence .

But I suggest to you, Sir, that if there is some reason, if it is a fact first of all that Manitoba's combined provincial municipal civil servants per thousand is higher than most other provinces , I'd be very surprised; but if it were true then I suggest it must have at least a little bit to do with the fact that it was that administration which establish ed a t-wo tier system of munici pal government back in 1960 or 61 which is a breeding ground for generating more numbers of municipal civil servants than would otherwise be needed.

The two tier system always will res ult in more civil servants than a unicity type of arrangement such as we in this House enacted a year ago. Now the results may not be dramatic in the short run but in the long run by deductive logic alone one can perceive that it should have a remedial eff ect if this problem of civil servants per thousand in fact bothers my honourable friend as much as it seems to.

I want to have my honourable friends understand very clearly that we do not apologize for increases in staff man-yea rs, civil service numbers to the extent that this has taken place because we have introduced many new concepts and programs. In the second place when you do run a comparison with other provinces on a per thousand population basis we compare very favorably indeed.

And insofar as the Ministerial assis tance is concerned, I noticed just the other day that in the Province of Ontario while they are reducing the number of civil serv ants in some departments, they're increasing it in others and while I support the concept of creat ing three Cabinet sub-committees to deal with broad policy areas such as Resource and Economic Development, social policy and justice and education, etc . , nevertheles s there has been no concrete evidence that there is any significant reduction in civil se rvice numbers per thousand population in Ontario.

I notice that the office of the First Minister in Ontario has increased from a number I think of 3 7 or 38 in the mid 60's to where it is now numbering 74 attached to the office of the First Miniter and the Executive Council. Well, Mr. Speaker. I don't think that there is any point in pursuing those arguments any further. I would like to deal before I conclude with the question of budget size and the dead weight debt size and the deficit size of our budget.

I suppose it was irresis tible to the honourable members opposite to comment on the fact that we are budgeting a deficit from current accounts for this year, which when taken together with Capital Account, General Items, amounts to -- oh, something approaching 75-$80 million. The fact is of course. that Manitoba's net debt position today -- I want my honourable friends to be well aware of this - that Manitoba's net debt dead weight debt position today is much more favourable than it was ten years ago.

In fact, it's more favourable today than it was six years ago-- that Manitoba's peak -- we reac hed the zenith in terms of dead weight debt per person in this province back in 1965, when it stood at $19 5. 00 per capita or per man, woman and child, $195.00 or in other words abour $195 million in dead weight debt, just slightly below that. perhaps 188 - $1 90 million. That then was started to be brought down starting in 1967 and in successi ve years

1054 April 17, 1972 (MR. SCHREYER cont•d) . . . . . 67, 68, 69 and 70 we continued the process of net debt reduction to the point where in about midway through 1971 the net debt per person was lower than it had ever been since prior to 1958. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is pretty well -- pretty widely accepted economic knowledge to day that in a time of relative under-performance in the economy that it is necessa ry and des irable to st imulate the economy through increased public sector activity and we ce rtainly make no apology for the increase in expenditure and in deficit during a time when we are all trying to provide a greater degree of zip to the economy. This is something that has become common knowledge, se cond nature to the economic advisors, governments, all across our continent and western Europe.

Nevertheless it simply must be repeated for the edification of honour able members opposite that if debt positions are what really pre-occupy them as it seems to, then they ought to look to the year 1965, in which year Manitoba had reached its peak in terllli3 of net debt per man, woman and child, 195 bucks. Today that figure would be approximately one third, certainly less than half of what it was six years ago, so let them not try to make a big thing - let them not try to create some kind of public apprehension and fear about our debt pattern, because Mr .

Speaker, in terms of non self-sus taining debt, our provinces's position is much better today than it ever was during most of the years of the 1960' Well you see, the Honourable Member for Riel says it's nonsense, and one can take the Dominion Bureau of Statistics tables and I suppose put them in front of his face and somehow cajole and plead him to look squarely at those figures and I suppose he will st ill say it's nonsense. Now what has happened Mr.

Speaker, is that in common with every other province of Canada, the guaranteed liabilities have increased and have increased st eadily every year without exception since -- well I suppose ever since the war years -- and in terms of guaranteed liabilities and total aggregate debt including self sus taining, self liquidating debt, then it' s true that there has been an increase every year without exception.

But then if one wants to talk about that kind of debt, I would ask them in all candor to identify it as being that kind of debt which has to do with self repayment, which has to do with the creation of assets that can generate the revenues upon which to amortize the payments, etc . And I really also want very much to go back to one other point, Mr.

Speaker, apart from debt and that is, levels of government expenditure because here again, this is informa tion from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, and Provincial Government's Treasurer's re ports from all the provinces -- and one sees that ever since 1961, which is as far back as these figures go, cover exactly a period of a decade, that since 1961 taking all the provinces of Canada together, in the aggregate, the level of general expenditure has exceeded the level of general revenue year after year, without exception.

That expresse d as a ratio one to the other, expenditures for example in 1961-62, expenditures were 107 percent of revenues for all provinces together and that pattern continues right up to the present day, without much change. It was 107 percent, the expenditures were 107 percent of revenues in 1961-62; exactly ten years later they were 108 percent, but Manitoba led most of the provinces in terms of excess of expenditure over revenue in the early 60' s, hitting a peak in 1963-64 when the province spent 114 percent of its revenues on current account.

In other words, they were going into deficit on current account that heavily. And it' s only in 1967 that a process of net debt repayment started and was carried on for four successive years including two for which we had a responsibility. And in this particular year we are budgeting a deficit on current account but it is a deficit which we certainly can live with; in fact, if patterns continue as they have in the past, the deficit may prove to be even sm aller than has been shown or es timated or projected according to our budget documents . Well, Mr.

Speaker, finances of this province, the entire matter of provincial govern ment budgeting, budget management, debt management is a subject matter which one could go on literally for hours talking about. I have, I feel taken more time than perhaps is fair of me to do in speaking on this subject.

I say only in conclusion that when one considers the fact that we have as a country come through a relatively significant if not major economic recessi on in Canada in the last three years the performance of our provincial economy has compared favourably indeed with that of every other province in. the country, particularly when that in turn is related to how Manitoba' s economy performed in the 1960's and in the 1950' s and so on. And we notice that capital investment intentions for 1972 - 73 are predicted or predicated as being -- well, anyway, Mr. Speaker, the prognosis is th at capital investment

April 17, 1972 1055 (MR. SCHR EYER cont'd) . . . . . for 1972 within Manitoba will be showing a very healthy increase, something in the order of 11 1/2 , 12 percent. And that Mr. Speaker, must be compared with the nation's average of all provinces in terms of capital investment and that, according to the Federal Bureau of Statistics, will be in the order of 5 percent, 5 1/2 per cent -- so if this proves out, if the forecast holds true, then Manitoba's relative performance in terms of investment will prove out to be rather impress ive I should think.

Now I know that honourable members opposite will say, ah yes, but how much of that big increase in investment will be public sect or? And I say to them that a major, very sub stantial part of it will be public sector but a very substantial part of it will be private sect or, so that there is no need for anyone to carry forward the pretention that investment, . the level of investment in this province will somehow necessarily be worse or less favourable than in most other provinces in 1972.

There is every reason for us, considering our resource base of this province there is every reason for us to be optimistic as to the intermediate and long term future of our pro vince. There are those who simply cannot help themselves but they must keep harping on a rapid rate of industrial growth and capital formation, even though I think history has demon st rated that rapid industrialization and capital formation does not necess arily do anything for in terms of the quality of life of the people who have to contend and live within the frame work of such a soci ety and economy.

So the important thing to us is that growth be proceeded with on a sca le that is manageable, on a scale that is not dislocative of social values , etc. and we feel that in Manitoba all of the various factors and components. economic and social, which when brought together really enable government, enable people to decide whether it is a good soci ety to live in. Well, I believe in Manitoba we have all of these ingredients already pres ent or on the horizon that we need not be pessim istic, in fact, ought to be optimistic in every major res pect . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR.

ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker in speaking at this time on the Budget Speech, it becomes somewhat difficult to carry on or pursue an original theme or format for a speech. One has had the advantage of listening to many and latterly of course, the First Minister had a double inning at bats a� which he gave us the benefit of his wisdom. And, Mr.

Speaker, for all the time that he has spent, and it was consi derable, in refuting or attempting to refute statements made on this side about the matter of the rate of increase in government expenditures of the growth of civil se rvice, let me devote only a minute to that by again ref erring to the document that strangely enough this government now is so fond of or has so often referred to, namely that Conservative government in Ontario and read you from Page 34 of the Minister's, Finance Minister 's Budget Speech of that province when he says: "A nd let me turn now to the government's expenditures program for 72-73.

We have budgeted for net general expenditures of 5. 051 billion in the coming year. This is an increase of 4. 5 percent over last year's expenditures." Mr. Speaker, we have been unable to determine whether our increase is 12 or 10 or 18 or 20 percent in this province, so in the first instance, at least the Cons ervatives in the Province of Manitoba or in the Province of Ontario do tell their people in their Legislature what the increase is and it is 4. 5 percent, Page 34.

Further with a great deal of effort, and we've become accust omed to the First Minister's effort at using figures in this way, he suggests, Sir, that our Leader has found a new way of compiling figures that is unknown to the DBS people. I would have to suggest to you, Mr . Speaker , that the First Minister has found some kind of a new tabulating or adding machine that the business or the mathematical world has as yet not derived at or found -- at arriving at the figures that he chooses to use.

But again, let me ref er to the Ontario Budget Speech Page 39 where -- and which by the way how pleasant it must be for those who choose to -- or have the resp onsibility of passing judgment on budget speeches in Ontario, when at least these kind of figures that are bound to attract some notice are put forward in very plain and simple terms . I refer to the civil service increase in Ontario. As a result, the net increase in the civil service jobs will be only 661 in 72-73 an increas e of less than one percent.

The increase in the budget year of 71- 72 was just slightly under two perc ent or around the 2 percent figure. Now this compares Mr. Speaker, with again virtually a mythical figure that we have to contend with. Our Orders for Returns , our Address es for Papers as to finding out just who all is working for the

1056 April 17 , 1972 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . . . . . government, go unanswered, and the increase published or the increase indicated - tell us then how many people you have in Planning and Priorit ies ? -- (Interjection) -- and Management? -- (Interjection) -- Mr .

Speaker, even the published figures of increases while varying from department to department, certainly in themselves have to refute the noble effort just put forward by the First Minister in somehow bringing in apples and oranges, Prince Edward Island versus Ontario, Manitoba versus other provinces -- suggesting that the only fair, the only fair comparison is per capita on a per thousand, on a per capita basis and I refute that. I refute that, Mr. Speaker, because it's entirely based certainly on the extent of the kind of development, the kind of work that has to be done in a province.

To compare, for instance, the personnel of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources in Manitoba with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, or a similar department in Albert a wh ich has a billion dollar stake in a mass ively developing, and further developing, oil and gas industry, to compare that rationale for having X number of mines and resources people in Manitoba as compared to Alberta, simply is not fair either, Mr. Premier. So Ithink,M r. Speaker, we do rely on figures that compe tent outside sources provide for us .

They can be used to -- as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions in this House to advantage by virtually anybody who so chooses to want to use the figures to buttress a particular argument. But the argument, Sir, that we have been trying to make, and we have been making rather unsuccessfully -- and in a moment I' d like to deal with that problem of why we have been so unsuccessful, why as some corres pondents would say, that we have been batting zero in the opposition, in our attempts in de bating with this particular government the problems that we think are real and earnest, that Manitobans face.

The real concern, Mr. Speaker, is the growth, either in expenditures or on civil servants, and those figures and that growth is the matter that we should be concern ing with and that is the figures, those are the areas where the government is doing its best to muddle up the picture to bring in other examples that have no bearing or relevancy on the case. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance says it' s not true and of course, I just about have to agree with him and that is precis ely our dilemma.

If there has been a failing on the part of the Opposition it is that we have still failed to come to grips with the fact that we' re not facing a government that is concerned about the stewardship and about the guard ianship of Manitoba's resources and its tax base in the same manner as would another govern ment of another political affiliation have been We suffer to some extent from still believing that we'r e facing another government there that has a concern for growth, unlimited growth in budgets, and unlimited growth in civil servants.

We kind of assume that the si tuation still exists where we had maybe our good old L iberal friends on that side who at least professed to a belief in efficiency in government, who when they talked about the extent to which govern ment is necessary they felt to some extent a kinship to our position which is government, yes to the extent that is necessary, but not government for government's sake. And that of course has been our dif ficulty here.

You see when we attacked the present government about a growth in the civil servants, there are those who will stand up in the debate that' s carried on in that side of the House and chastise their Ministers for why the civil service has not grown large enough.

When we asked particular questions, and we make the mis take about arguing about the expenditures, the rise of expenditures in the administration in such areas as the Attorney-General's department, or such specific areas as the Human Rights Commission, other members from the government side will get up and chastise the Minister why that growth department hasn't grown faster.

Why there hasn' t been a greater outreach of that department into the lives of the people of Manitoba, and the Minister answers-- doesn' t really answer us but answers his party and his government and apologetically while doing so -- yes, darn it all, we did , only did manage an increase of 33 percent in the civil service in that particular department, we'll do better next year -- and I' m not saying this facetiously because as a philosophical belief of course.

There are those in this House that believe that every Manitoban should be employed by the government -- (Interjection) -- and if you'r e working to that end then it's very difficult for us to score points, f�r us to score debating points about arguing about the size of the civ il ser vice or abo�t arguing about the size of government expenditures. Mr. Speaker, in their words when they talk about the necessity of the public and private sector co-oper ating together in developing this province, I suspect that certainly coming from

April 17, 1972 1057 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . some of the members opposite that that is a true reflection of their deep and serious wishes . I suggest to you that because of the dismal lack of experience in terms of what makes the private se ctor tick on that side of the bench, that they really know not of what they speak. They are not aware, Sir, they don't know when the private sector will in fact turn off.

They don' t know when, they don't know just how much longer the private sector will be interested in building public housing in this province, when agents of the govern ment are luring people and tenants out of private housing and suggesting to them, why live in a private house when you can have a better deal in a public house? And this is being done at governmen t expense. Now maybe that should be done. Certainly the Minister of Municipal Affairs believes it should be done. Certainly members of that side believe that it will be a tremendous advantage to have this done. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when does then, the private sector's, you know, moral -- when does the private sector's initiative, when does that be come sapped to such an extent that the tap is in fact turned off. That is som ething, I suspect, that I can't even blame the members opposite for. They have, as I said, a minimum involve ment in terms of individuals as personal people in their personal lives, and certainly in terms of any aggregate experience on that side with respect to what makes a private individual tick.

What makes a private corporate or company decide that a particular situation, a particular industry is worthwhile staying in and worthwhile investing in. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I didn' t really want to -- as I said at the outset there are a number of things that I felt that I would want to say at this particular time and I was s<>mewhat taken -- it was impossible not to touch on some matters raised by the First Minister and, specifically, let me repeat them for the record, his refutation of the suggestions made on this side, particularly by the Leader of the Opposition, in the concern that we expressed about the rise in expenditure and the rise in civil service, and I found it somewhat amusing to see the Ontario budget being used to the extent it was being used in these discuss ions, and yet conven iently ignoring the only true two facts that are relevant to this debate, namely, the size of their increase and the size of their expenditure increases .

Mr. Speaker, I didn' t get the opportunity to develop some remarks that I wanted to dur ing the course of the Throne Speech but I do want to in connection with speaking to some of the comments made in the Budget Address by the Honourable the Minister of Finance when he dealt with Agriculture and really I don't know whether I can chastise him in this way, I do be lieve that he is more intelligent. I can understand that he can be subjected to the same kind of pressures by his Minister of Agriculture that another Minister of Finance was once subjected to when I was the Minister of Agriculture. I can recall, Mr.

Speaker, once -- it was during those years where we were reducing the provincial debt and we were not expending large new amounts of money -- those were the years of Waiter Weir -- when we found it somewhat diffi cult to fresh up our Throne Speech, and I suggested among other things, well tax removals, tax removal is always a good thing to mention and I threw in, why not mention the fact that we'v e moved the horn tax off of cattle and it ended up in the Throne Speech, which really it probably had no business being in there. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the remarks in this Budget Speech, and in this Throne Speech, about the effect of the Manitoba Hog Marketing Commissi on on hogs is identically stupid and illogical as if the Firs t Minister would now have to get up and concede that the Portage Diversions operation will effectively reduce the floods in the Mississ ippi River, indeed the Nile, indeed the Volga. That' s just about as much sense that the remarks that yet found worthy of being talked about by the Minister of Finance and by the First Minister in these two very important documents . Mr.

Speaker, consider, consider the situation that they're asking us to believe that producing less than one percent of the hogs, we'v e had an overnight effect in Omaha, in Chicago, in Minneapolis-St. Paul. Mr . Speaker, okay, I believe, I' m prepared to accept that it did have but then I really want to get mad at them . Why did this government wait three years when the hog prices were down at 18 and 19 cents ? If all they had to do was bring in a hog marketing commission and have the farmers receive a 30 cent hog. W hy did he sit on this for three years ? I'll tell you why, Mr.

Speaker, and that of course is the truth. Thi.s govern ment, as has been stated in that very New Democratic Party conflab that they had in Portage la Prairie about what a tremendous job hog marketing was doing for the hog industry, that finally now something was happening that should have been happening 20 years ago. And all the credit of course going to the introduction of a compulsory hog marketing board. This Minister certainly was committed to that principle from the day that he took office, from the

1 05 8 April 17, 1972 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . . . . . day that he took offic e. But did he do anything about it? Not a thing. Did he do anything about it the second year ? Not a thing. Well, Mr. Speaker, it wasn't a question of education. He didn't worry about a vote ; he didn't worry about educating the hog producers into acceptance when he thought it was politically right to do it, he did it without any plebiscite, without any votes , without any ref erence to the producers themselves . And I'll tell you exactly on what basis he did it.

He was bound to do it, he was committed to doing it from the day he took office, but he had his res earch people tell me -- now I want you to tell me exactly when the next cyclical increase in hog prices are going to occur, and I want to know when the prices -- not hit them at the top but just when they're occurring. For two years, three years , hog prices languished at 18, 19 cents and hog producers were going broke. Did this Minister bring in that hog marketing commission for which he now claims all credit ? No. He waited. He let hog producers go broke in this province.

He let hog pro ducers go broke in this province or get themselves financed up to here. He waited until all reports came in, all indicators came in - from Omaha, from Iowa, from St. Paul, from Chicago, Sioux City, Toronto, Alberta. And it indicated, Sir, that we could anticipate, as we have always had, those of us that have been in the business, the seasonal rise would begin to take plac e. Their biggest problem was when should we impose the board. I mean if they im posed it too early and then the ris e didn't take place, then they'd be in trouble.

On the other hand if they'd imposed it too late then all the rise would have taken place, and what credit could the Hog Marketing Commission take. So I must suggest he chose a pretty good point. He took the figure when the prices rose up to about 23, 24 cents . That's when the Hog Marketing Board was put in and we now enjoy, not good prices but reasonably good prices of between 28 and 30 cents . Certainly a nickel increase since the Hog Marketing Commission has entered the field, you know.

The fact that we had 40 cent hogs four years ago without a commission escapes the Honourable Minis ter's attention, but be that as it may. I only raise it, Sir, because it is as about as ridiculous to make the claim for the all-embracing benefits that the Hog Marketing Commission has which controls less than one percent of the hogs marketed in this continent, for having such a tremendous value and effec t and benefit to the hog producers . The fact, Sir, that the Portage Diversion has from time to time been held up with some scorn by the First Minister, I want to say to you right now, Mr .

Speaker, that the Portage Diversion in my lifetime will be hailed not as a particularly great flood measure, flood pro tection measure, but as one of the greatest conservation projects that that particular part of the province will require and need. Lake Manitoba is a lake that is not fed abundantly with fresh water .

Lake Manitoba as a residue of the old Lake Agas siz is doomed to extinction in due course unlike Lake Winnipeg which is fed by the mighty Saskatchewan which drains all the way from Alberta into the Rocky highlands, or from the great Winnipeg River which drains the Ontario-Minnesota and Lake of the Great Woods areas, and the Re d which comes down to the Dakotas , that res ervoir will be there.

It's questionable as to how long Lake 1\Ianitoba in the distant future will be there, and I suggest to you right now that far from being apologetic, or being concerned about the wisdom of spending those public funds on the Portage Diversion, I'm more confident that that diversion will attest to the wisdom of the then government for centuries to come, never mind years . Mr. Speaker, far more serious in my remarks to the Minister of Agriculture are: why am I concerned about this attitude this government has, and what can it do in terms of hog production or agriculture production in general.

In Alberta they have just announced a S25 million pork processing plant which will invol\'e the production of some 650, 000 hogs. All of these hogs will be sold outside of Canada, grown by Alberta producers. a most amazing single improvement for the agricultural scene as a whole in terms of its entire production, and this is the kind of program that we will be denied here in l\Ianitoba simply because of the attitude of the present government.

Oh yes , we remember the si tuation when Ogilvie people were talking about a plant, and while publicly, or privately rather , they indicated to the private sect or that there was no difficulty -- I don't mind reading into the record a letter at that time that went out to a Mr. Keyes , the General l\Ianager of the Wes tern Feeds Division of Ogilvie Five Roses Sales Limited.

"C onfirming our conversation of this morning, your proposal for a large sca le hog operation has been discusse d with the Minister of Industry and Commerce yesterday, The Minister advises that there's no intent to discourage the type of operation which you are

April 17, 1972 1059 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . proposing involving one-third owners hip of each hog operation by the company , with two-thirds owned by the farmer. The service. . . operated breeder herd. " The governm ent, however, goes on to say that they're not prepared to involve them selves in any financing. That's what they say privately to the firm, or to the kinds of busi nesses that could bring this kind of an expans ion in agriculture into the province. Publicly of course they raise a hue and cry to the point where the project is killed before it gets off its feet. I suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, had this government wanted to, we could have made a most significant improvement in our agricultural, a meaningful one, not you know the dollar per acre or kick that we get into when by-election time rolls along, but a meaningful, lasting, substantial improvement in the agricultural industry. The kinds of improvements that we talk about when we say that there is room for an expans ionistic attitude towards agriculture. There is room for new markets and new products if we pursue them diligently as obviously has been the case in Alberts.

In Alberta they're going to grow next year half again as many hogs as we grow here in a whole year, in a single operation. Not one of those hogs will be hitting the Canadian market or depressing the Canadian prices in doing it. You can imagine the kind of outlet that will be for sales and so forth. I see the hono urable member wants a question. Sir, I would certainly entertain them on his time after I've finished my forty minutes. Mr . Speaker, so much to do with the problems of the Agricultural Minister. I can only suggest, Sir, that it's with regret and that again exhibits a distinct difference in our policies.

Whereas the efforts, the entire efforts of this governm ent, and governments like him in Ottawa, devote so much of their effort, so much of their time to how to divide the pie, and how to regulate us, and how to make sure that maybe nobody is getting more than his share, that nobody is worrying about increasing the pie and making the pie a bigger one for us all to share in. That is the differenc e in the philosophical attitude that we have with you, and that we hold on this side. I should, really, Mr. Speaker, refer to my good friend from St . Vital, about some of his disparaging remarks, about the farmer.

I have only this to say that in the very same budget that recognized such valuable assets to the working man as safety boots or tools, and other things, to be exempt from sales tax, and other things like that, surely then it was a little out of place for him not to appreciate, or not to realize that the only reason, the reason why certain farm exemptions are made is, of course, because of the essential food production industry that the farmer's in.

The fact that the farmer drives on purple gas is because he uses a truck 60 to 70 percent of the time in the transportation, or in the process of building up a food industry . And for the same reason that we don't put sales tax on a loaf of bread, there is no rhyme or reason why sales tax or other taxations should be unduly imposed in the process of producing food. That, Sir, is the reason why the farmer enjoys some of the ex emptions that he does . He is sadly amiss if he chooses to chastise the farmer of Manitoba in this particular area for not pulling their own weight.

I want to suggest to him, Sir, that, if he· spends a bit more time out on the farm, if he takes just a cursory inventory of the kind of equipment and machinery that is on the average farm; when he realizes how many man hours of work the farmer provides for us, whether they are in the plant s at Winnipeg or in Oshawa, Hamilton, Toronto, or elsewhere around the worl d, then, Sir, the farmer need not stand back to anybody with respect to his contribution in our society. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have expressed the difficulty that I have had with the members opposite in talking about, and engaging in a philosophical debat e with them, about the benefits as I call it, minimum government versus big governm ent. They believe in big governm ent. I believe in minimum governm ent. And that makes for difficult debating pattern. Our debates will be carried out, they will be carried out successfully outside of this Chamber. Obviously we are not going to convince your position on that matter. We could convince another govern ment, or anothe r's party's position on it who thought at least in like terms.

But we are on opposing pathlines, and this makes for a very difficult job in debating. I can indicate to you, Sir, just in the minutest of ways, some of the problems of big government. You know , as a lando wner, taxpayer in my -- (I nterject ion) -- at the end of my speech, Mr . Minister. I used to get my tax notice from my Rural Municipality of Woodlands in one little envelope, with one seven or eight cent stamp; since the advent of big government this is how I get my tax notice, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 , 13, 14, 15 -- 15 emelopes, 15 notices, 15 6� stamps

1060 April 17, 1972 (MR. EN NS cont'd) ..... (Interjec tion) -- and, Mr. Speaker, just in case the wrong im pression goes abroad, I'm not a big land baron, I am what the Minister of Agriculture would be the first one to acknowledge, running a viabl e, economic farm unit in the Interlake, con sist ing of se veral thousand acres of deeded land, and another se veral thousand acres that I lease from the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resourc es .

It supports a hundred to a hundred and fifty cow-ca lf units, which I'm sure the Minister of government would be the first to say, is the kind of operation that is desirable. or is welcome in this province. But, Sir, there's just a small example of the waste and inefficiency of big government. This used to be done by my municipality for one envelope, one st amp -- there's fourteen, fourteen. Mr. Speaker, these are the kind of inefficiencies -- (Interjec tion) -- last years -- (I nter je ction) -- Las t years .

These are the inefficiencies that I -- the Minister of Finance has a frown of consternation on his . . . I don't expect him to know that -- I don't expect him to. know many other things as his government grown bigger and bigger. It's impossible for one minister to know that or even for one government to know what's going on, but that is one of the prices -- a minimal price, I agree. A minimal price agreed, but these are all part of the prices that we pay, and I suggest we have to pay, if we believe in the axiom of big govern ment. Mr.

Speaker, without bringing in red herrings , although it's te�pting to, the example of sheer nonsensical government waste or sheer inefficiencies, abound when you view some of those countries, some of th ose economies , where you have a total control by government, in other words, within a totalitarian state where governments have complete planning and management responsibilities .

Every year there's some shrewd corresp ondent from time to time, lifts the cover of, I suppose, what could be called the equivalent of the Henderson Report on the affairs of the Soviet Union, or some other eastern country, where it's just sheer nonsense when you see the kind of situ ations developing. Mr. Speaker, we've asked about the growth of the civ il service, we asked specif ically about what all those brain people are doing in the Departments of Management and Management Control, the Department of Planning and Priorities .

You know, Mr Speaker , if this govern ment was doing that much, if this government was planning that many new programs, if this government was set ting out its priorities in so many new fields, then perhaps that tremendous increase could be justif ied or could be understood. But Mr. Speaker , what have they done ? You know, their priority for brin�P.ng in auto insurance that was established at man meetings, many years before they ever became government; they didn't need a big planning and priorities group to tell them that they were going to put in auto insurance. Mr.

Speaker. in those few areas, those few areas where they have attempted, such as the development of community health clinics, even in those areas, if it had been nece ssa ry to pay outside sources , outside socio- economic agitators to find or try to develop a pos ition for the government, but they've come up with no plan. They've attempted, mi ghtily. to convince. who? -- one group of doctors in the Selkirk area to maybe come to grips with the problems of a new medical delivery service, but to date we have no great results emanating out of Planning and Priorities . l\Tr.

Speaker, Pm tempted to suggest to them that maybe it's up to me, that I should. in a constructive way, give them a suggestion, for res earch and so forth; and it's in this light, Sir, that maybe they could consider se riously the problems that we have here in Manitoba, the mosquito problems . Maybe they should se t their minds to work developing a mosquito abatement program that is free of pollution, and ecologically acce ptable. Indeed. Mr . Speake:r; they could take up where this res earcher left off at Simon Fraser Un_i versity in British Columbia. I think this is something that they could consider .

This, I read portions of it, this professor at Simon Fraser was engaged in research which he thought could effectively control the mosquito. He had arrived at this device that he thought could do the job -- and he got federal funds, by the way, to do this research. Male mosquitoes, he explained, are attracted by the same sound as the middle "c " on a piano key board, and to the males it sounds like the amorous beating of a fema le's wings, and by play int the same note range, Mr .

Be lton is able -- he is the res earcher -- is able to attract the males out of a swarm of mosquitoes into a tiny cage aided by a vacuum cleaner. and once in side, the electric flash of the flash gun is triggered. Because of the mosquitoes almost transparent body the pulse of light passes through the insect causing irreparable damage to his genetic st ructure. When released the male appears to be unharmed but he is unable to

April 17, 1972 106 1 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . . . . . fertilize the female's eggs because of the genetic change . Now the problem with the system, the res earcher admits, is that you would have to take an awful lot of pianos, vacuum cleaners, and flash guns , to effectively police an area plagued by mos quitoes .

And then a further problem is that some male mosquitoes, perhaps the older ones, don 't pay any attention at all to middle "C" no matter how sexy it sounds So there's a re se arch area that hasn' t been fulfilled ; I would be more than happy to have our planning and priorities, our expanded staff of planning and priorities, look into this important area. It would certainly be beneficial to our province which is plagued particularly with mosquitoes . Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, there might be a consid eration given on this side in view of the possible development of industries involved in the building of vacuum cleaners and pianos and flash guns , that we could have the MDC support the development of those industries and we could see something happen. Mr . Speaker, what I'm trying to suggest is that from that rumor -- and really at this point and stage it is only rumor -- all we se e of course, is the estimates and the tremendous rise in the expenditures in these two particular areas . We don• t know what your planning and priorities people are doing.

We se e blessed little res ults from the thous ands upon thousands of dollars that you're asking this Legilsature to approve to pay to them.

We have suf ficient susp icion because of the manner and way in which so many of them have been hired outside of the civil service, without going through the regular civil se rvice procedure, that we suspect that it is in all too many instances a convenient place for a political party to surround itself with people that it owes , or thinks it owes , some obligation to; to as somebody else su ggested --where is my friend from Sturgeon Creek ? -- a place that our socialist academics from various parts of the country can, from time to time, come and find homage and shelter in the all-embracing arms of this government that doesn't mind a government growing in a hurry in every way.

MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Member has five minutes . MR . ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr . Speaker, I thenreally come to a particular point of my speech that I' m not very happy about making, and particularly not very happy about making it in the absence of the Member for Inkster , because he is one member that as a rule is in his seat to listen to most speeches, as I try to do in most instances myself . However he made a remark the other day that disturbed me greatly, and it's a remark that he is fond of developing , although this is the first time I heard him say that in this particularChamber .

He likes to play with us when we talk about the socialists on that side, and he says that he has rejected the temptation of calling us capitalists, ... and so forth. But Mr . Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member for Inkster sug gested that he would rather vote for a communist than he would for a freely elected member of this Ass embly. Yes, that's exactly what he said. I read it to you.

He said, "and, by the way, I think that given a choice of having to vote for the Honourable Member for Charleswood and voting for a communist candidate , I wouldn 't have any difficulty." -- (Interjection) -- That means , Sir, exactly what it says; that means that given a choice of voting for a freely elected member of this Legislative As sembly, namely, the Member for Charleswood, that the Member for Inkster, the former House Leader of the New Democratic Party, the man that twice sought the leadership of the New Democratic Party, has , given that kind of a choi ce, " not too much difficulty in voting for a communist." Mr .

Speaker, that is exactly what he said; I knew exactly how he meant to say it, but I choose to interpret this way . He said, "and by the way, I think that given a choice of having to vote for the Honourable Member for Charleswood and voting for a communist candidate, I wouldn't have any difficulty". Mr .

Speaker, I would suggest to you, that for some of us, for some of us at least who regard that kind of a statement, for some who within their immediate family have had members shot by communi sts, for some who believe that throwing out the word 'communism ' meant something to the Hungarian freedom fighters in 1956, for some of those, who at least had a feeling for a little bit of freedom in Cz echoslavakia, that that kind of terminology is meaningful - - and I know they like to play around with a game , they sugg est that we're distorting it, we 're abusing it, I sugge st to you, Sir , that just as another member was quite correctly exorcised when it was sugge sted in the heat of the Autopac debate that a Nazi salute was given to him - - that, Sir, the suggestion made by a member of the New Democratic Party, by an important member of the New Demo cratic Party, that he would rather vote for a communi st, I want to assure you that will win my

1062 April 17 , 1972 (MR. EN NS cont1d) ..... . el ection if I do nothing else . The honourable mem ber, you !mow, whom we give a lot of kudos for being smart , we 've all done it, in my judgment made probably one of the most serious and stupid blunders that he has made in this Chamber .

He made it maybe in a smart way, but I want to assure you that that particular line of Hansard, and this particular copy of Hansard, will be purchased by the 500 's , by myself and those who have a concern in this particular area; because in my judgment the man that is generally conceded to be sec ond in command of the New Democratic Party, when faced with a choice of voting for a person, a free elected member of this Chamber, would sooner vote for a com munist, that, Sir , I don't take lightly. Thank you, Mr . Speaker , MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr .

Speaker, the honourable member indicated he would be prepare� to answer a few questions . I have a few if it is permissible . MR . SPEAKER: There is one minute left of the honourable mem ber 's time . MR . CHE RNIACK: I' ll try and be quick and I' ll ask them although they are disconnected . MR . PAULLEY : We would grant leave for •.. MR . CH ERNIA CK: Oh fine, then I' ll ask them separately . I wonder if the honourable member would care to read that line of Hansard, and ask him if given a choice he would have any difficulty in making the deci sion ?

I' d like to !mow if he would have any difficulty , given a choice, in the exact words of the Honourable Member for Inkster . MR . ENNS: I would have no difficulty . MR . CH ERNIACK: Well , then, my sec ond question is related to those envelopes he threw about . Did the honourable member indicate that those were tax bills ? MR , ENNS: No , asse ssment notice. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide . MR . CH ERNIACK: Would the honourable member !mow what was the practice in the preceding year ? MR. ENNS: No, I don't. MR. CH ERNIACK: Then, my third and related question.

I don' t think the honourable me mber actually gave his def inition. I'm wondering if he could do it in the short space of time that the House would allow him. I didn't hear him actually define big business or mini busines s, and I was wondering if there is a possibility he could define them rather than just talk about them . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. EN NS: Mr. Speaker, in the first instance, I don't think ... MR. CHERN IACK: I mean big government - mini government. MR.

ENNS: I don't think I talked big business or mini business. it was - and really the words that I employed was maximum government versus minimum government - yes, I would be happy to in two se ntences or thereabout, explain my concept. about that.

Maximum government in my judgment is , if you believe philosophically that governments should be doing most things , that if given a choic e -- perhaps the bes t way that I can make this clear to the Minister of Finance is that, for instance, if there is a particular matter that should be attended to, or looked after, whether it' s in the social field, construction or what have you, a particular matter that should be looked after, and the public sector cer tainly could do it, or the private sect or ce rtainly could do it, and that if in both instances the results would be the same, in terms of effectiveness of getting the job done, and cost, in terms of desirability on the other hand, all economic factors being equal, I, without question, without difficulty, would opt for the private se ctor to doing that job .I suggest to you that when you are put in the same position, not necess arily yourself, Sir, but when a government that approaches it with a socialist trend is put in that set of circums tances , it automatically opts for the · governm ent doing it.

That's my des cription of the difference between maximum or minimum government. The suggestion that at any time that you should be able to state at which level or in which particular industry or in which particular ac tivity government should be involved in, that of course, is never possible nor desirable. Conditions change. social climate changes, necessit y changes, a lot of things change; accep tability of different things change but I suggest that I have no difficulty in making that judgment, I think it' s a cle ar one that can be made.

April 17, 1972 1063 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON . RON McBRYDE (Commissioner of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Well , Mr . Speaker , you probably noticed that I have been very quiet during this session of the legislature and Mr . Speaker, I have been keeping quiet for a purpose. I wanted to be the only member of this legislature this session who didn't say anything foolish or ridiculous and I was going to ac complish this of course, Mr . Speaker , by not speaking at all .

After having listened to the Member for Lake side just speaking and the kind of hysteria that he likes to get involved in as he's acting in this legislature, I think the Member for St. Matthews summed it up when he said, if he had to make a choice between a rhinoceros and the Member for Lake side , he'd have no trouble making up his mind how he would go either. But anyway, Mr . Speak er , I had decided - - anyway, Mr . Speaker, I had decided to follow that old adage , "better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt." However, Mr .

Speaker, the First Minister, God bless him, saw fit that I would have to speak at this session, so I thought I might as well get started this afternoon. Since this is the first time I have spoken, I would like to congratulate you, Mr . Speaker , for hanging in there and keeping this place operating . We know that it's a difficult job that you have . I would also like to congratulate the new member for Minnedosa. I missed his speech which I understand was fair minded and objective.

However, I guess he'll manage to overcome this problem , after following the examples of the Member for Lakeside and the Member for Swan River, to overcome this problem he has of being fair minded and objective. Mr . Speaker , I would like to comment on the - - very briefly during my remarks my remarks on the budget, on the newspaper comments that were made on Saturday's edition of the Free Press. But, Mr. Speaker, before I do , I would like to make a short statement in my speech since I sort of missed the policy statement

section earlier this afternoon. So Mr . Speaker, maybe I could get the Pages to deliver this to - one to the northern critique of the Conservative party , but I' m not sure who that is - -I 'll let the Pa ge figure that out - - (Interjection) - - and one for Mr . Speak er . Here's a statement which I have, Mr . Speaker . I would like to make my first statement as Commissioner of Northern Affairs and announce to this House before calling a press con ference, a policy decision that was made this morning after intensive consultation with my staff, my Cabinet colle agues and the First Minister.

It is a decision that not only affects Northern Manitoba but a policy that affects all of Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, contrary to recent public statements by a person or persons unknown, it will not be the policy of this government, or of this Minister to co-ordinate dog fights. Neither I nor my staff have had the experience in this area and therefore it would require adding another professional officer to our staff at considerable expense to the taxpayer .

Also such a policy would go against previous state ments of this government, stating that we do not want to interfere with activities that are doing quite well on their own without government subsidy or equity position. Mr . Speaker, another aspect of that

article which I was referring to in my statement, was a statement by one Mr . Farrell who is the President of the Nor-Man Regional Develop ment Corporation and this was the response to the appointment of a change in the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. Mr . Farrell said he is not very thrilled with the appointment and said he doubted Mr . McBryde has the grasp of the north required for the position . "The new Commissioner" he said, "is a social worker by profession and they are great for doing studies but what we don't need is more studies of northern problems." Well , Mr .

Speak er, this prompted me to want to make a few remarks in regards to myself and the position that I now hold . And, Mr . Speaker , I also felt this need when various members of the House stand up and say I am a lawyer, or I am a businessman, or I was a fisherman or I was a banker; and some of them stand up and say they are farmers or I was a miner, right. And there's probably some question as to whether some of the members opposite are farmers or not; I think maybe some of them more likely make their living off farmers or use their farms as a deduction on their income tax. But anyway, Mr .

Speaker , that's not the point I am getting at . I think its important that our past experience has something to say about the way we judge things -the way we look at budget speeches, and so that 's why I' d like to make a few comments on my own experiences. So, Mr . Speaker , although my father when he came to this country was a farm labourer

1064 April 17, 1972 (MR . McBRYDE (cont'd) .•••. and he also .worked as a coal miner -- not in the field that the Member for Flin Flon has - - and a truck driver . By the time I became aware of .what .was going on, my father .was a small busine ssman in a small community , so Mr . Speak er, I rec eived my busine ss training at an early age , as .we .were in the fuel business and there .was no office except our o.wn home so .we all .worked at this job .

So to some members of the opposition, I'd like to say that by the time I .was ten years old I .was an efficient order taker, som ething. like the member for Charles.wood or the Member for Sturgeon Creek might be today. I could put the right order in the right book and make sure that the delivery .was on time and by eleven , Mr . Speaker, having grown up in this situation, I .was a salesm an something like the member for Souris or maybe the Leader of the Opposition, I' m not sure .what business capacity he. functions in . So, Mr .

Speaker , .when somebody phoned up for a load of slab .wood I could convince them that they also needed one load of box ends and one load of shavings to go along .with their load of slab .wood. Mr . Speaker, .we also did the bookkeeping and the dispatching from our o.wn home, so my mother and my brother and my father .were all capable of running the .whole operation. So by the time I .was twelve I .was a manager similar to the member for Minnedosa, as he is pres ently a manager. However, Mr .

Speaker, by the time I .was thirteen I had made the big time and became a labourer or a s.wamper on one of the vehicles that .we used in our busine ss . Well, Mr . Speaker, I forgot the member from Swan River who is not in his seat, and the Member for Fort Garry as well , and I would like to compare my own experience with their · present experienc e. When we were eight or nine we es tablished a little neighbourhood news paper and I would say that the neighbourhood roundup probably compares quite favourably .with the Swan River Star and Times in our production method .

But I also had to be the sales man of the ads in the paper and .we didn't have the efficiency in selling ads that the Member for Fort Garry is aware of. Mr . Speaker, we didn't have enough sense to go to people and tell them, "if you take out an ad in our newspaper, we 'll write a nice

article about you in our paper ." We didn't know enough to do that as the honourable member is able to do, or we didn't have the knowledge, Mr . Speaker, to do the opposite , the way The Pas Herald functions in that, "E ither you get your printing done at our shop, or we 'll criticize you in our news paper ." -- (Interjection) -- We just weren't .wise enough to function in that manner but I guess at my age , I guess you could forgive me for that lack of business experience and knowledge . - - (Interjection) - - Mr .

Speaker, when I was about 15 years old I went to work during the summer in the saw mill in our community and, Mr . Speaker, when I look across the House I can't see one saw mill worker and I - -o h ye s, there' s a new one arrived over there . I have to apolo�tize for the Member for Rupertsland - there is a saw mill worker on the other side . - - (Inter je ction) - - Each summer thereafter, Mr . Speaker, I changed between the Oliver Co -oper ative Growers and the Oliver Saw Mills . In both these experienc es, Mr .

Speaker, I became a union member when I worked on these jobs, a member of the International Woodworkers of America in the saw mill and a Member of the Brotherhood of Fruit and Vegetable Workers, .when I worked in the Co -operative . And I want to ask my colle agues on this side, who are always claiming to be union mem bers, how many can claim to have been a member of the Fruit and Veg etable Workers Union - how many ? -- (Interjection) -- Not very many, Mr . Speaker . However , Mr .

Speaker, I forgot to mention that before I worked in the Union shop I had the opposite experience of being a store clerk for the grand total of 65 cents an hour and that .was of course , before the dep ression, Mr . Speaker , that that was the going rate for store clerks . These jobs of course, Mr . Speaker , were during summer months until about grade 12 when I dropped out of school because I didn't get along with school teachers, - - (Interjection) which explains some of the problems we have in our group over on this side .

But after about nine months or so on the night shift of the fork lift operator I beca me tired of being a fruit and vegetable worker - - (Interjection) -- About that time , Mr . Speaker, I took a course in radio and television repair and therefore I' d like to compare my experience with the member for Riel who is some kind of an engineer and I woul d guess that a television technician is a practical engineer of sorts . However, the market for television repair men was kind of flooded and there was no marketing board for television technicians . The other occupation I wanted to pursue, Mr .

Speaker, but I didn't have enough money

April 17, 1972 1065 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..... was, that is, of continuing from being a private pilot to being a commercial pilot so I would like to compare that with the Member for Brandon who has had that experience during much of his life. However, being unable to do that I guess I took the easy way out from that point and completed grade 12 and went on to University. I might just say there for a minute, Mr .

Speaker, after listening to the Member for Lake side today and listening to the Member for Charleswood the other day , I went to Univer sity in the United States and I got a job sweeping floors, washing windows, general janitorial work - - and I think it would make the Member for Charleswood and Lakeside quite satisfied to know that in order to do that important job , I had to take an oath that I am not now nor have ever been a member of the Communist Party or any other organization which advocates the overthrow of the United States government by force or violence .

Now I' m not -i f we keep following the Member for Charleswood and Lakeside we might find such similar productive legislation requirements in our province here, Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speaker, the specific thing in this

article refers to my being a social worker and I want to talk about aspects of social workers sometime but I don't think I '11 do that today , although I would like to say, Mr . Speaker, that my professional training was in the field of political science . After completing political science, I worked for two years with the Attorney-General's Department in B .C . as a probation and parole officer and I can't cl aim to have ever been a social worker . Now I know that there are good social workers, poor social workers and bad social workers but I' ve never had the opportunity to engage in that profession. And, Mr .

Speaker, after that experience for a couple of years though, I saw that in the Province of Manitoba there was one of the best and most progressive programs in the field of community development. That was brought on by studies by the previous Liberal Government and then by the Conserva tive government , so I was able to come to Manitoba and engage in that field of endeavour. But I engaged in it, Mr .

Speaker, from the point of view of a political scientist, that is, to do the job it was acceptable to the people that hired me , to organize Indian and Metis people so that they would have' sufficient economic and political influence and to have some effect on their own lives and what was happening in their own lives. And not, Mr . Speaker, from the point of view of a social worker which is a different point of view which I am not going to go into in detail this afternoon. So, Mr .

Speak er, I am not going to take an oath like I did about not being a Communist to not having been a Social Worker but just to say that I have never engaged in that occupation. I would like to comment now, Mr . Speaker, in terms of the Northern Affairs in Northern Manitoba and this is an important aspect of this government's program, an important aspect of the budget we are now considering. Mr . Speaker , as a northern representative I am quite pleased with the attitude of this entire government and of our entire caucus towards develop ment and growth in Northern Manitoba. Now, Mr .

Speaker , it's very hard to deal with the opposition when discussing Northern Affairs, because as I said I' ve had some trouble finding their northern affairs critique or northern development cr itique <. But there is of course the member for Churchill who comments on Northern Affairs and I am sorry that he is not in his seat. The Member for Churchill spoke in the budget in regard to Northern Manitoba and I think the only thing he could have added to his speech, Mr . Speaker , was a P.S. at the bottom that said he was also in favour of motherhood.

I guess that 's the advantage of being an Independent that you can say everything the people want to hear without being connected or involved in any decisions that have to be made or any actions that have to be taken in that regard. Mr . Speaker , I '11 have to comment a little bit on the Member for Churchill and his remarks in this regard . I' m afraid that the Member for Churchill doesn't like to see the in tensive effort and the great interest and the increased spending that this government under takes in northern Manitoba.

I suppose the progress that we are making sort of endangers him and his particular seat in this Legislature and I would like to invite him through Hansard when he reads it to become more secure in his seat in this Legislature by coming over and joining with us. He is a nice and reasonable fellow and we don't have any objection, wouldn't have any objection if he wanted to join the New Democratic Party and join with us in really getting involved in what's happening in Northern Manitoba.

I know that the Member for Church ill resigned previously under the Conservative Government because they weren't interested and active in Northern Manitoba but I' m sure that now that he sees the effort that this govern ment is making he should be reconsidering coming over and joining the New Democratic Party

1066 April 17, 1972 (MR . McBRYD E cont'd) ..••• and bec oming a member on this side of the Legisla ture . So I would invite him to do that, Mr . Speak er. - - (Interjection) - - However there is an area where we -- there is however - - well one of the members suggested that we have an exchange program . One of the areas the Member for Churchill and I do disagree in that he 's going to criticize when he does get that opportunity again because he has the beliefs, Mr . Speak er, that all the departments in Northern Manitoba should be under one department .

Their functions in Northern Manitoba should be under one department and of course he also believes that Churchill should separate from Manitoba at one time . I think the reality and the practicalities of the situation are, Mr . Speaker , in terms of government is that in reality it is much better for a Minister to go to Cabinet to go through the government process .

If there are many Ministers interested in the same area that he 's interested in; if there are many Ministers interested and knowledgeable of what is happening in Northern Mani tobe so if the Minister of Colleges and Universities is aware of programs and is familiar with programs in his area in Northern Manitoba; if the Minister of Highways is familiar with what's happening in Northern Manitoba; the Minister of Tourism and Recreation ; if all these Ministers remain involved in Northern Manitoba then it 's a lot easier for us to get programs initiated for Northern Manitoba.

And I know that my colleague from the north and myself are quite pleased . As a matter of fact, Mr . Speaker, I' ll give away a Cabinet secret .

I thought it was very funny, and very informative that when we were considering the es timates of the various departments in govern ment, if a particular es timate seemed to be in trouble and maybe was not going to be put for ward as part of this government's es timates, and the department would start saying how that program affected Northern Manitoba because they were cognizant of the prejudice of this government towards policies and program that relate to the northern part of our province .So, Mr .

Speaker, I would prefer to be in a position where the various Ministers are involved in the north because I think this only make s sense in political terms in order to get the kind of things done that we want and need done in Northern Manitoba . So as soon as the Member for Churchill and I overcome that disagreem ent then I' m sure that we 'll get along well in the NDP caucus when he makes a wise decision to come and join us . The other thing I' d like to comment on this afternoon, Mr .

Speaker, and it relates to the budget in that many of the members have been talking to the budget of whether it should be a Crown corporation, whether it should be a private enterprise or free enterprise and this kind of philosophical debate . I' ve just spent 15 minutes talking about the Member for Churchill and I'll try -- he comes in as soon as I' m finished. Anyway, Mr . Speaker, I don't think I' ll repeat it again. - - (Interjection) - - Mr .

Speak er, I think it is significant and I 'm going to take a few minutes if there 's no violent objections to quote a slight bit from the Northern Task - - the interim report of the Northern Task Force because this particular

section is very relevant to Northern Manitoba and the government's programs in general. Rec ommendation 28 in that report is: "That con sideration be given to the establishment of an Is olated Communities Devel opment Fund." Number 29 is: "That the givernment increase its support to the people in isolated com munities in the development of local industry. This would mean improving existing industries such as trapping, fishing, lumbering, retail selling, guiding, etc .

Every attempt should be made to assist people in isolated communitie s in viable new industries such as the tourist and manu facturing industrie s. Government departments should be instructed to hire as many local people as possible ." Rec ommendation No. 30 - "That assi stance and encouragement be given to is olated communities and groups to do contract work with the government and private industry. Con tracts should be made by community council s, co-ops , corporations and other organizations .

Survey work, exploration work, bush clearing, road building, pulp cutting, language training and social animation, etc., could all be included in this. Some care must be taken to ensure local involvement." Now, Mr . Speaker, there are many other rec ommendations that go on here but I think what in terms of ec onomic development - -a couple of things have happened that I think indi cate in some way the over-all approach of this government to ec onomic development .

We all wanted to find from the Northern Task Force - - to find ways of causing ec onomic development to take place where it was not taking place in the isolated communities . And, Mr . Speaker, we 've adopted at least four different approaches to causing this to

April 17, 1972 1067 (MR . McBRYDE cont'd .. ... happen. The first approach, Mr . Speaker, is the ARDA 3-B or special ARDA Agreement which is a Federal-Provincial program that involves grants as well as loans to assist the establisluilent of business enterprises . Another method that we 've used, Mr . Speaker , in Northern Manitoba - - and this was largely through the efforts of the former Mini ster of Mine s and Resources - - is the provisions of Bill 17 and the Crown corpor ation aspect of economic development in Northern Manitoba . Another approach that was taken, Mr .

Speaker, was the Communities Economic Development Fund which comes under the special branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce . And, Mr . Speaker , a fourth approach that was taken and some of this was pioneered by the previous Conservative govern ment was the expansion and increased use of the co -operative loans for various enterprises in Northern Manitoba . And, Mr . Speaker , I think this gives some good indication of the over-all direction of this government in terms of economic development. We weren't going to leave ourselves only one avenue open for economic development.

We weren't going to say either this way or else there is none of this type of development. But we were quite willing to get involved in the co-operative loan

section and to do as much as we could in that regard, so we appointed representatives of the isolated areas and other areas of Northern Manitoba to the Co -operative Loan Fund and, Mr. Speaker, a considerable amount of money has been loaned out already under this particular fund. I think now in the neighbourhood of $451, 000 from my latest reports, and this has been made available through the Co-operative Loan Fund . Mr .

Speaker , similarly the Communities Development Fund has been very active in Northern Manitoba and it's expected that their loans by the end of the fiscal year will be some where in the neighbourhood of $38 5, 000 for developments in Northern Manitoba and this is the second method that we have used and I don't think it's that different from the methOd used by the -- no, it's quite a bit different but it's still part of the Manitoba Development Corporation or fund operation.

So we have the co-operative approach, what we would call the free en terprise approach and the third approach as I mentioned was the Bill 17 Mines and Resources approach which is with the Crown corporation and we have this in operation at Moose Lake and at Berens River at the present time . Mr . Speaker , the action of this particular method hasn't been as active as the first two that I' ve mentioned but it is significant and it will probably be expanding.

Probably the Member for Crescentwood will be disappointed to learn that it's sort of third in the amount loaned out at this time, the amount involved in Crown corporations to cause eco nomic development. I suppose the fourth method, the ARDA 3-B is the most disappointing of any methods that we 've used so far and I' m afraid this is in the nature of the Federal-Provincial agr

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c8f1499568169c1e6272b043c594cad948dce69

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