Manitoba Hansard — 20 April 1977 (Sitting 43, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-43

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the galler y where we have some students of Grades 11 and 12 standing of the Wabowden School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Bill Schroeder. This school is located in the constituency of Honourable Member for Rup ertsland, the Minister of Renewable Resources and Transportation. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister.

HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, just for the sake of accuracy the school of Wabowden is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. I'l l have to check that with my staff. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Repor ts by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTERIAL STATEMEN TS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Mines. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN (lnks ter): Mr. Speaker, we've scheduled the Private Bill s Committee for tomorrow at eleven. I did indicate that Mr.

Bateman was going to be away, Mr. Speaker. I thought he was going to be away immediately; he is leaving on Friday, but in any event, we have scheduled Private Bill s Committee for Thursday so the Hydro Meeting will await Mr. Bateman's return. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Continuing Educati on. HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table The Annual Report 1975-76 for the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Tabling of Repo rts; Ministerial Statements? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bill s. ORAL QUEST IONS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Kil larney): Mr. Speaker, a question to the First Minister. We note with interest that the First Minister had occasion to meet with the Prime Minister yesterday, from news reports, presumabl y to discuss the drought situation and questions of any federal aid in that regard. I was wondering if the Fi rst Minister could advise the House of any favourable news with respect to federal assistance regarding the very serious drought problem in Man itoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot report or indicate any definitive conclusions flowing from the discussion other than certainly a willin gness on the part of the Prime Minister to consider and refine the National Emergency Program so as to encompass under that emergency program such emergency matters as would come under the general heading of drought, which are not covered already by existing programs, for example crop insurance and the like. And to that extent the conservation was useful. We intend to follow this up and to have it followed up at the officials' level. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the First Min ister. The other evening in his address the Prime Minister made reference to the Western Economic Opportunities Conference of July , 19 73, which was attended by the First Minister.

And he made the statement, "I am not ashamed of the progress we've made so far on the items agreed to at WEOC working in co-operation with the four western provincial governments." I wonder if the First Minister of this province shares that optimistic view of the outcome of the WEOC Conference with respect to what the Federal Government has been able to do for western Canada and Manitoba in particu lar. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, in that particu lar regard I am less impressed with the results that have flowed from the WEOC, or Western Economic Opp ortunities Conference, than apparently the Prime Min ister is.

To attempt to be objective about the matter' there has been some concrete achievements flowing therefrom, such as, for example, the upgr ading with federal cost-sharing although by no means 50-50 cost-sharing - by the Government of Canada in the cost of upg rading certain highways up to 11 0,000 pounds standards, also the re-supply of the Arctic, the central Keewatin out of Churchill. But by and large, Sir, matters such as the processing and refining of natural resources in western Canada, such as civil aviation manufacturing, there has been precious little prog ress made.

I think, for example, of t he fact that while it was acknowledged that WEOK, that it is a general principle of national economic pol icy that resources should be processed as close to the source of origin as possible; that there is substantial production of copper in western Canada, but all 2131 THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Wednesday, April 20, 1977

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 copper refining- I believe all of it, Sir -is limited virtually to an area of a few hundred miles radius from Toronto and Montreal, and civil aviation manufacturing is almost entirely exclusive to Toronto and Montreal , so there has been not too much progress in certain respects. BUSI NESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: Order s of the Day. The Honourable Memb er for Gla dstone. MR. JAMES R. IFERGUSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Before Orders of the Day, I would like to have a substitution on the Private Bi lls Committee. I would like to substitute the Member for Swan River for the Member for Arthur.

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C.: Mr. Speaker, my question is either to the Min ister of Finance or the First Minister. I wonder if either one of them could indicate the government's supp ort of the principle that where a federal tax is payable and a provincial tax is payab le, that the federal tax should be deducted from the payment of the portion of federal tax, specifically with reference to the changes that have now taken place in Ontario with respect to succession duty, where the capital gains tax will be deducted from the succession duty tax. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER (Seven Oaks}: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, we're only about 42, or is it 48 hours away from the budget. I think perhaps we can await the Budge t Address. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I am not asking the Finance Min ister for a particular reference to the budget. I wonder if he can indicate whether the government is supp ortive of that princi ple. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, whether in supp ort of it or not, is not the issue right now.

I indicated that a Budget Address will be made Friday, in which case the government's point of view on many things will be made known. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Finance Minister can indicate, because he has already made an announcement of the tax rebate program of an increase, whether in fact there will be the minimum increase in the cost of living program. MR. MILLER: Friday afternoon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Honourable Minister of Health.

On April 14, I asked him a question with respect to the proposed location of the federal penitentiary, adjacent to or near to the mental hospital in Selkirk. And he replied that he did not want that hospital too near that institution. Could the Minister advise the House as to how near he would consider suitable, a number of miles -o r how many miles? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. MR. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface}: Mr. Speaker, the responsibility rests with my colleague, the Minister for Corrections.

Now my honourable friend asked me to make a personal observation and I made it. I don't care at this time to tell him in miles or feet or .... As far as I'm concerned, I don't think it should be in the same yard or just next door; it could be across the street. But it's a very difficult thing to state. MR. JOHNSTON: Another question, Mr. Speaker, on the same subject. Would the Minister inform the House as to whether the senior staff at the mental hospital agree with having the penitentiary adjacent to or near th eir institution? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Healt h. MR.

DESJARDINS: I think that the staff are there to carry on under the direction of the government. I must accept the responsibility for the department and I don't think there would be any point in starting to debate here what the staff want or what the staff .... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge asked whether there were arrangements in place or being made with respect to environmental assessment review and the citing of any future, prospective nuclear power station in Manitoba.

My answer at the time was that there was such a process but that we would take pains to ensure that there was no duplic ation of effort as between that process and a related process carried out by the Atomic Energy Control Board. I mention that now for emp hasis because already my honourable friend is purporting to say that we do not intend to have environmental assessment review process. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gener al. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk}: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if, with leave of the House, I could table some reports. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minis ter have leave? (Agreed) 2132

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 MR. PAWLEY: lt is The 1976 Proceedings of the 58th Annual Meeting of the Uniform Law Conference of Canada. Secondly is The Fifth Annual Report of the Manitoba Police Commission for 1976. Thirdly is The Sixth Annual Report of the Law Reform Commission, 1977; and The 1976 Annual Report of the Human Rights Commission. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Thank you , Mr. Speak er. In response to the Fi rst Min ister's statement MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. SCHREYER: On a point of order. I did not make a statement. I was answering in further elaboration to an answer of last week. MR. SPEAKER: Correct. And anyway the Honourable Memb er for Fort Rouge doesn't, in this House under our Procedure, have the opportunity for rebuttal to a statement. If he has a question MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, then in view of the elaboration of the answer to a question that was posed last week to the First Minister, I would like to ask a further question which is what I was trying to get to in the first place before the First Minister got to his feet, but he does get impatient at times, I know.

I would like to ask him if in view of the answer that he has just provided , he can now indicate that the guidelin es have been established for that environmental assessment, if he is prepared to make those publi c and make them available, and determ ine which agency in fact will be undertaking those assessments and what criteria they will be using and particularly what kinds of examinations will be undertaken in terms of social, economic and environmental impacts of the proposed site? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to see that my honourable friend does indeed want information in the answers and is not merely asking questions to which he really doesn't want answers. In specific response to his question I would say that indeed it is comp letely intended that there be an environmental assessment review process. lt is further intended that it not presume to dupl icate the expertise and activity of the Atomic Energy Control Board, so there will be a rational division of labour and expertise and that obviously the criteria will be made publi c knowledge.

My honourable friend, however, should - I rea lize he is a Liberal in a hurry - but he should exercise some patience because the matter at hand is to be measured like a decade from now and not ten months from now. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister's statement opens up even further inquiries for information. Can the Minister indicate who will be undertaking this environmental assessment?

Will it be simply officers of the Manitoba Hydro or will it be assigned to the independent or the other agency that has been assigned the task of doing environmental impact statements, in other words, their own environmental impact agency. And further to that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister if he is pred icting a ten-year time decade? Does that mean that these impact assessments will be done after the decisions have been made upon the projects or in fact will the environmental impact assessments be done prior to any decisions on sites. MR. SCHREYER: We ll, Mr.

Speaker, the last question need really not have been asked. Obviously there is no point to doing an assessment after a project has been put in place or even when it has gone beyond the point of no return in terms of commitment. and investment and work and place.

Obviously then, the answer to his question is that the Environmental Assessment Review will be carried out by that agency that is charged with the responsibi lity, and they will proceed by virtue of their own personnel and expertise, plus secondment, plus perhaps retaining of such additional professional ski lls which may be relevant. lt is not something to be done in-house by Manitoba Hydro. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister's questions are ambig uous. He indicated it would be undertaken by the agency charged with the project. MR. SPEAKER: Question please, no argument. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm asking, is it then the intention of the Government to set up a new agency to undertake the development of nuclear projects or will it be Manitoba Hydro and, therefore, will Manitoba Hydro be the agency undertaking those assessments, or will they be in fact given to the Environmental Impact Assessment Board? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know why the honourable member is being particularly obtuse today. I did not say that it would be carried out by the agency that is in charge of the project.

I said it would be carried out by the agency that is charged with the responsibil ity for Environmental Assessment and Review, and such an entity exists. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. 2133

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Min ister of Public Works. In view of the Minister's statements regarding Winnipeg's new arena proposal, can the Minister advise the House as to how he expects the City to park 8,000 cars on a 15 acre site? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HONOURABLE RUSSELL DOERN {Eimwood): it's very simple, Mr. Speaker, you build a park ing structure, and since the promoter has unlim ited funds that will be no problem for him. MR. STEEN: A suppl ementary question, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the Minister might contact K-Tel Limited to see if they might manufacture a car stacker for him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (BUD} SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Finance.

I would like to ask him, while recognizing the constraints of printing schedules, etc., can he advise the House whether he has at this point put the final stamp, the final seal on his budgetary document or whether he is still responding to conditions and statistical information, relative to the economy of the province, that is being revealed in a number of areas this week? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Finance. MR. MILLER: My apolog ies to the member. I did not hear the question. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I could refer the Minister to Hansard but that will put us so close to the budget that there would be no point in asking the question. So, if I may recap the question, Sir, while recognizing the constraints -{ Interjection)- The First Minister suggests that I don't embellis h it. I'll try not to, Sir. The constraints of printing schedules, etc., can the Minister advise the House whether he has at this point put the final stamp on his budgetary document, or whether he is still, at this moment, responsive to information relevant to our economy that is revealing itself in a number of different areas. MR.

MILLE R: Mr. Speaker, if the member is aski ng whether I have written "thirty" under the Budget Address, no I haven't. I'm still in the process of editing it, but that is about the size of it. MR. STEEN: A supple mentary, Mr. Speaker, with that encouraging information, I would ask the Minister, whether in preparation of his Budget he is taking into account the serious deterioration of the job vacancy picture in Manitoba which discloses the province to have only four job vacancies per 1,0 00 existing jobs this year as compared to eight last year? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, all of the important matters dealing with Manitoba are being taken into account as they always have by every Minister of Finance of this province. MR. SHERMAN: A final supp lementary, Mr. Speaker. Does that undertaking include a commitment or an assurance to the House that the requirement for job creation, particu larly in the private sector, is one to which the Minister would agree he must address himself critically and seriously in his Budge t? MR. MI LLER: All that will unfold in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J.

WALLY McKENZIE: ... question to the Honourable the Highways Minister. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if the present chairman ofthe Manitoba Taxicab Board is a permanent resident of the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HONOURABLE PETER BURTNIAK (Dauphin): At the present time, I believe he still is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Education. lt relates to some information that was suppl ied in response to our Order for Return No. 15 .

In the organizational chart of his department, he lists an Assistant Deputy Minister, Admin istration and Finance. I wonder if he could tell the House who the present incumbent of this office is? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, that position is not now fil led. MR. McGILL: A supp lementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the vacancy being held for one Mr. James Campb ell, formerly with the department? MR. TURNBULL: Mr .

Speaker, in cases such as this where an incumbent has taken him or herself off to another country to serve there, the policy of the government is not to hold the specific position open for that person. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can tell the House whether Mr. Campb ell's salary during the time that he was employed by the Canadian International Development Agency is being suppl ied by the Department of Education? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, that is not the case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is either to the Minister of Health or the Minister of Finance. I wonder if either Minister could indicate whether complaints have been brought to their attention with respect by either those in charge or those involved in personal care homes with respect to abuses of the property tax rebate moneys that have been paid to those people who are residents of 2134

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 nursing homes? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe there was a newspaper story on this in the last couple of days and, to that extent, it has been brought to my attention. I am not certain I agree with the thrust of the newspaper, the Tax Credit Program is available to all residents. Individuals are being required, residents of nursing homes, that is, are paying a certain per diem and, therefore, they are contributing towards, in a sense, the rent which they are payi ng to the nursing home.

To suggest, as I think is being suggested, that the tax credit should not apply to residents of nursing homes, I think is singling out a certain segment of the popu lation and perhaps somewhat unfairly. MR. SPIVAK: Wel l, to the Minister agai n. Have there been specific comp laints in which there could be an investigation by the depar tment or is this a general complaint that has .been made to the department? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I am simply referring to a newspaper article. There has been no direct proposal put to me at all. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member for Morris asked a question with respect to the activities of, as he put it, a Texas-based auctioneering firm and as to whether or not it was provid ing auctioneering services for the Uti lities Board. This question has been routed to me and upon checking I am advised that an arrangement was made by Manitoba Hydro tor an auction last October of certain equipment and again this spring. Last October, the auction was conducted by Ritch ie Bros. and in the spring, it was conducted by Parks Da vis.

But, Parks Davis, Sir, I am advised further, does have a Canadian head office. The head office happens to be in Winnipeg and additionally, I am advised that there was an auction being conducted by Parks Davis at a given point in time in any case and the Hydro arrangement was simply to hook into that and take advantage of that oppor tunity. If there are additional details my honourable friend would like, I will try to accommodate him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to ask the First Minister if he could provide the House with the name of the person who contacted Parks Davis and who was responsible for arranging the sale in the first place. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, I can undertake to do that, Mr. Speaker. At the moment, I have no idea whatsoever. MR. JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister could also find out what kind of an office Parks Davis have here in the City of Winnipeg , whether it is a regulation or a standard office or is it just a. telephone answering service? MR. SCHREYER: Well, again, I will do that' Sir. As Jack Horner might say, ... MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr. Speaker -(I nterjection)- Yes, left wing. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The First Min ister has ind icated recently that he is considering an inquiry into the hydro and energy development in Manitoba, past and present. Would the Minister expand the scope of that inquiry to include the nuclear development of Hydro in this province and open it to the public into the future as well, instead of past and present? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, there is no doubt that because of widespread public concern which is not diminishing with the passage of time but which seems to be, if anything, increasing, that there ought to be as systematic an inquiry , at as competent and prestig ious a level as possible, to try and bring some greater publi c understanding to bear of all of the great mass of concerns and considerations and complexities involved with nuclear energy.

But, having said that, Sir' I would suggest to my honourable friend that that is all the more reason why it ought to be done by that level of government which is charged under, not the BNA Act, but the Law of Parliament, with the responsibil ity for nuclear matters for all of Canada, namely, The Government of Canada. I am afraid that if each province were to undertake to do this, it will multiply by some exponent the cost of arriving at the same conclusions.

Therefore I would answer my honourable friend by suggesting that he, as a concerned Canadian, should direct his inquiry and make his urgent representations to the Federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, the Minister indicated that it should be the national responsibil ity or tl":e Federal Government but would it not be proper for the province to have an inquiry into the direct sites that are going to be located in the province and the impact from that?

While the Minister is already considering an inquir y, would he not expand that inquiry and have it wider in scope and look into the future instead of into the past? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the suggestion relative to geographic site locations, my honourable friend's question or suggestion makes sense and I am sure that it will happen that way. But with respect to the suggestion that the very nature ofthe prob lems surrounding 2135

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 nuclear energy be Royal commissioned, so to speak, in Manitoba, I'm afraid I have to say, and I'm certainly not being offensive, it just doesn't make sense to have that fundamental type of an inquiry in each of the ten components of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister in his capacity as Minister reporting for Manitoba Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: I see I seem to get some people nervous. MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Can the Minister MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I know it is muc h better to talk to you, much easier than it is to that group over there, however what can you expect. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Can the First Minister indicate whether he concurs with the charges made by the Leader of the Offic ial Oppositi on, the well-known man who can't remember how much money he received while he was leader outside the House, namely the charges that Manitoba Hydro wasted some $605 mill ion of taxpayers' money.

That indivi dual ... A MEMBER: What's his name. MR. SHAFRANSKY: What's his name, that's right. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would simply refer my honourable friend to the transcript of the meetings of the Public Util ities and Natural Resources Committee. He wil l there be able to read what has been stated by Mr. Bate man under various questions and I believe that he should then be able to form his own conclusions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisso n. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, being a lay person in this House, I would figure that the Minister MR.

SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: . .. when he is reporting for Manitoba Hydro would be able to elaborate ... MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: ... whether in fact those charges made by the Leader of the Official Opp osition that Manitoba Hydro wasted some $605 mil lion of taxpayers money is correct. Does he concur? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that I have stated on previous occasions and it is borne out by, in my opin ion, by the answers and the elaborations given by Mr. Bateman in the Committee.

My elaborating further thereon is really not disclosing anything new. BUSI NESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, with leave I'd like to make a substitution on the F-ublic Uti lities Committee. The Minister of Northern Affairs will be replaced by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'd} MR. SPEAKER: Thank you . The Honourable Minister for Industry and Commerce. HONOURABLE LEONARD S. EVANS (Brand on East): Mr .

Speaker, the other day, in fact on Apri l 12th, the Member from Assiniboia asked a question regarding the availabi lity of grass seed to small independent merchants in Manitoba, that is for McKenzie Seeds Limited, and at that time stated "that only two or three suppl iers in the province can still get supp lies and all other customers are now cut off. " I think that was the gist of his concern.

I am pleased to advise the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that Mc Kenzie Seeds has since Ju ly, 19 76, has been and is still accepting orders for grass seed for the year 1977 from both independent and chain accounts in Manitoba and has to date suppl ied or is committed to supply lawn grass seed during this spring season to over 600 retail outlets in the Province of Manitoba, of which only 123 are chain store affiliates. McK enzie Seeds grass seed sales in the province have increased by over 40 percent to ate, Mr. Speaker, in 1977 compared with the same period in 19 76.

And while the company' s business with chain accounts continues to grow, the company's predominant strength is still with the independent retailer. As a matter of fact, over 75 percent of the company's sales are with independent voluntary affiliated outlets. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Can the Min ister indicate to the House, if he has the information, how many small 2136

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 merchants have been declined orders? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, ! bel ieve my answer would indicate that none are declined as such because I understand we're accept ing orders. Now if you have some specific information, there may be some very special reason. If an account was particu larly bad or what have you, I can see the company not wanting to accept that particular order. But the information I have is that we are supplying the massive bulk of retail outlets in the province of Manitoba. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOURNED DEBATES - SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader.

MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I would like to proceed with the Adjou rned Debates on Second Read ing in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Adjou rned Debate Bill No. 5, the Honourable Member tor Birtle- Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 14, the Honourable Member tor Wolseley. MR ROBERT G. WILSON: Stand. BILL {NO. 16) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GARAGE KEEPERS ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bil l No. 16 , the Honourable Member tor Gl adstone. MR. FERGUSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I adjou rned this bill tor the Honourable Member tor Bi rtle Russell. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Birtle-Russ ell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. When the Attorney-General introduced this bill, Mr. Speaker, it again is mainly a bill tor cla rification and cleaning up of some odd spots, but I think that you have to look at some of the ways that the Minister is clearing up certain issues and wonder, in tact, it he is not aggravating some of the issues. I refer in particu lar, Mr. Speaker, to the

part in the bill where he is suggesting in the bill that a garage keeper who tails to give up possession of a vehicle after all the other requirements have been met, shall be guil ty of an offense and liable on

summary conviction to a fine of not more than $10 0 for each day that he has refused or failed to give up possession of the vehicle. And in that particular aspect, Mr . Speaker, I was just wondering how the Attorney-General intends to calculate the date. I thought that perhaps I could get some information from the

Interpretation Act which would probably spell out what a day meant with respect to the various statutes . And it does, to some degree, under

Section 21 sub (

I) on the impl ied powers of the

Interpretation Act. However, I find no way under the

Interpretation Act where a day is spelled out in terms of business hours, or what if the business is closed tor a day of industrial rest such as the Minister of Labour is suggesting in one of his pieces of legislation. Would that day be considered to be one of the days on which a penalty would apply? I can quite easily see, Mr.

Speaker, a case where a person could come to the garage keeper, say at eight o'clock at night on a Friday evening and desperately needs his car; that's why he has done all of the things that are required for the registration of a lien and said, "Now will you give me my car?" And the garage keeper has closed his place of business for the week-end and may in fact be 25, 30 miles away from that place of business. Is he then expected to go back and open his business at 10 or 11 or 12 o'clock at night to give him that vehicle? And if he does not, is he subject to a $10 0 fine for that day?

And if his place of business is closed tor Saturday and Sunday and does not open till Monday morning, how many days would be considered in the imposition of the fine? I think that the Minister has to clear that up. I would think that the Minister's intention was just to include a normal busin ess day. But maybe that is not his intention, and I would like to have him clarify that when he is closing debate. lt does have a rather significant bearing if a person is found guilty and a fine is imposed.

Is it unreasonable to expect a businessman to go back at the late hours of the evening when his place of business is closed to open it up and give a person his vehicle just because the man has come to him with the necessary signatures on paper so he can register his lien, when he brings it to him after normal working hours. And I would hope that the Min ister will clear that point up, either in Committee or when he is closing debates on second reading. The final point that I want to make is the amendment to the form which is being added in ....

There is another amendment added to Form 1 which I don't think detracts from the valid ity of the form, but I don't think it really enhances it either. I think the legislation, if you go back and you read Section (6) (1) (

a) of the Act , where it very clearly states, and I quote, "Before surrendering possession to the owner, he (and it is referring to the garage keeper) obtains from the owner, an acknowledge ment of the indebtedness with respect to wh ich the lien arose' by requiring the owner to sign an invoice or other statement of account for the service rendered." Now all you're doing here is 2137

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 repeating that, and just putting it into a little bit of a form and put ting a place for the name of the person to go in. I think it is probably a bit superfluous but maybe the Minister likes to see more paper used in making our Acts longer and certainly more reading for those that want to use the Actfor both their protect ion and their benefit. Those are the only comments I have at the present time, Mr. Speaker. I don't know if anyone else wants to speak on the bill or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General shall be closing debate. MR.

PAWLEY: If there is no further debate, Mr. Speaker, I would propose to allow the bill to proceed to Committee so we can deal with the specific questions asked by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russ ell. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 28, the Honourable Memb er for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BIROWN: Stand, Mr. Speaker. for Min nedosa. BILL {NO. 33) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LIC ENSED PRACTICAL NURSES ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 33, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this bill in the name of the Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to make a few brief comments on this bill and some of the concerns that we do have regarding portions of the bill.

I believe that our concerns are mainly with the first portion that says that the Minister is going to mean a member of the Executive Counci l charged by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council with the administration of this Act. The bill previously was worded very specific and said that it had to be the Minister of Health that was in charge of this bill. And if we continue on a little further, it says that one member who shall be a member of the staff of the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower is nominated by the Minister of Continuing Education and Manpower. This calls for some concern, Mr. Speaker.

We're wondering whether the Minister is trying to shift The Licensed Practical Nu rses Act from the Department of Health to the Department of Continu ing Education and Manpower. If this is the case, Mr. Speaker, then ... At the present time there is a joint ministerial task force on nursing education which is studying this very thing and I am certain that this bill has not been referred to them. And the terms of reference that this joint ministerial task force has, is (

a) To review and recommend to the Ministers of Health and Social Development and Colleges and Universities Affairs, on questions related to the transfer of nursing education, practical nursing, dip loma nursing and psychiatric nursing, to the education sector of the province, including a proposed implem entation of plan, and so on. There is genuine concern by the task force that the Min ister is trying to abrogate some of his responsibi lities' and possibly shifting this over to Continuing Education and Manpower. With those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, we will let the bill go to Committee.

QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 39, the Honourable Membe r for Gla dstone. MR. FERGUSON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. BILL {NO. 44) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MARRIAGE ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 44, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have perused Bill No.44,

An Act to amend The Marriage Act, and have sought some legal counsel on the changes to be made. We find , as the Minister mentioned when he introduced the bill, that it was of a housekeeping nature and amending one or two sections to allow for a mechanical signature rather than the signature of the Minister or his Deputy, who are very often not available, and the other changes were of a very minor nature, so we have no reason to withhold the bill and we will allow it to proceed to committee stage where we can then examine it clause by clause in Committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 56, the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. (Stand) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 57, the Honourable Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Stand please, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agricu lture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into Comm ittee of the Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Continuing Education and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for Industry and Commerce. 2138

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Wednesday, April 20, 1977 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital}: We have a quorum' gentlemen, the Committee wi:l come to order. I refer the attention of honourable members to Page 40 in their Estimates Book, the Depar tment of Industry and Commerce, Resolution 77, Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation (

a) General Programs. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, firstly I would like to express some appr eciation through you for some of the program that's happened in my constituency, or near it. I would now refer to Page 18 , Mr. Chairman. The Minister is talking to someone and he has a tremendous back-up there, if 'le' ll look to Page 18 , that happened in Elk horn and I appr eciated that afternoon.

In any case, we have seen the dup lexes under a slightly different program in Ken ton and also they really weren't what the Commun ity of Kenton wanted, but they were accepted and they are occupied and the tenants are reasonably happy. The question, Mr. Chairman, would be when some people are occupying these complexes and come into money or sell their mansion that they may have moved out of, when is this assessed and how often is their income looked into? I believe the Honourable Member for Pembina asked a somewhat similar question in the closing minutes last night.

Who does look at this, and is this a local Board? Maybe I'll stop there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Yes, if you're referring to the rural and native housing units at Kenton or anywhere in the province, the review is conducted by the staff of Manitoba Housing. However, if it's in the nature of publi c housing such as this lovely senior citizens building which we opened at Elkhorn earlier this year or later last year, I guess it was, that would be a procedure carried out by the staff of the housing board and the board itself. A MEM�ER: The local board? . MR.

EVANS: The local board has that responsibil ity. Mr:. McGREGOR: All right. Then we go to the private and non-profit organization and I'm getting a little paJochial , Mr. Chairman, but I'm comparing this and I'm thinking now of the Commu nity of Miniota which was really turned down in one sense by the Minister, Mr. Chairman. They now are arranging for a private non-profit organization. I believe their plans are twelve units.

I look again in comparison to Newdale, and while the Minister did promise to subsid ize some 25 percent of units, indeed if Miniota buil t those twelve and did put in ten, eleven or twelve of low income residents, would indeed the government then subsid ize all or a major part of them? While I realize the average of the province is 25 - 35, would they indeed go to 80 or 90 if that need was positively there and the low income were in there? MR.

EVANS: Yes, if there is no alternative accommodation in the commun ity, such as an existing personal care home or some other existing public housing facil ity let us say for senior citizens, it t.cu ld go up to 10 0 percent if those people qualified. Unfortunately you cannot, and the way it works a ... . understand it, we cannot precommit that . In the case of Newdale, they are now, I understand, receiving appl ications and on ly upon receipt of appli cations and the decision by that organization at r.Jewdale, will we know how many of their units would qualify for the public housing subsidy.

But some commun ities actually prefer to, through their volu ntary organization or their non-profit organization, some commu nities prefer to have a percentage of the suites available to those who wouldn't normally qualify for publi c housing. In other words there are people who may be above the line - they may not be rich retired pe ople, but they're not necessarily that poorly off either - and they don't quite qualify to go into public housing but they could be accepted into this non-profit se11ior citizens accommodation. At any rate it is correct that we wou ld provide up to 10 0 percent subsidy.

We would provide subsid ies just as though they were in a public housing structure for up to 100 percent of the suites providing those people qualified. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, this again is solely decided by that local board or is there a member om your office? MR. EVANS: No. The decision as to who they put in is a decision that's made by that organization, by t'l eir own board. MR. McGREGOR: Yes, well then another area.

The Town of Virden has been tal king with the Minister and I know some of the housing staff have been out there over the last year or year-and-a half and I note that as of November 1O th, or earlier than that - very early in November - he made an announcement of a forty-unit complex at Virden. Then there seemed to be some misunderstanding with Mayor Brian Archer, and I have a lot of respect for the Mayor, but there was some niisunderstanding. The question would be, Mr. Chai rman, where is that standing? Has the 2139

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 ----- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Commu nity of Virden lost that opportunity for this year, for a part of it, I'm certain, , or is there a possibi lity of reacting either the forty-unit complex, or indeed the 24 which was the original plan? MR. EVANS: The matter is under review and I hope, in a matter of three or four weeks, we will make a final decision on it.

But as the honourable member knows, I've met with the Mayor and with the delegation from that commun ity only a matter of a few weeks ago and I promised at that time that the whole matter would be reviewed and that we would be notifying the Mayor and Counci l and the Housing Board, and this is what we will be doing. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, then the other question. In building these comp lexes is there a difference in cost per unit say on a 40 or 50 unit comp lex, over say a 20,24,26 unit comp lex. Is there a per unit cost difference and is it a great deal of difference? MR.

EVANS: We've been having a great deal of difficulty getting the full financing from CMHC in the past several months for projects in that range of about 40 to 60 units, and so on. These tend to be masonry, five, six, seven floors, the high rise type. I'm nottalking about something that would be very low lying and maybe spread over one floor or two floors. But the typical type of buildin g that we build in that size, we've run into difficulties in terms of costs. The costs have come in over budget, I suppose, or over the amount that CMH C would be prepared to lend its usual 90 percent thereon.

Ti 1erefore, we've had to redesign in several cases and retender, and in some cases we've been able to bring the prices down, and in other cases we've had to scrap the design entirely and do something different. In one instance, in the case of Dauphin, we are going to a larger size structure. There's one in Brandon, I'm not sure what we're going to do with it. it's a 51 or 52 unit structure. lt was tendered once, and then it had to be redesigned and it was tendered again, and the prices are sti ll too high. We're still about $200,000 short on the mortgage money. So the answer is very specifically, yes.

These tend to be more expensive per unit than the motel type which we usually build anywhere between 12 suites, and 24 or 25 suites in that area. MR. McGREGOR: I think maybe that's all for the moment, Mr. Chairman. Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rh ineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister's Department has given any recognition to mobile homes as an alternate way of low cost housing. Have you any pl ans as far as mob ile homes is concerned? MR. EVANS: The closest we have come, Mr.

Chairman, to being involved in the mobile home type of accommodation is in the development of two mobile home subdivisions in northern Manitoba; one in Wabowden which has been turned over to the community, and the other is in the Town of The Pas, and we're now in the process of selling those lots. These are serviced mobi le home lots lots that are being offered for sale, or will be offered for sale in the very near future in that particular town. MR. BROWN: Are these lots in operation at the present time? MR. EVANS: I am sorry, I didn't hear the question. MR.

BROWN: Are these lots in operation at the present time? MR. EVANS: The lots are in operation in Wabowden and they are available for sale in The Pas. MR. BROWN: Are there any further plans by the Min ister's department to give recognition to that type of housing because it seems to me as if this is a way of getting young families, especial ly, of getting them started off in their own home and at low cost? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we did have some experience I understand, ! am led to believe, in Thompson with 16 trailers or 16 mobile units but it was rather unsatisfactory.

The other major problem is that CMHC won't fund, I am advised, won't provide mortgage moneys for the single wide bodied type of mobile home structu re that we see around so there are problems of getting financing from CMHC. MR. BROWN: Well, has the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation ever considered making lung-term financing available for mobile homes? MR. EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman, and one reason for this is that we have been busy on many other programs of social housing.

I must add a proviso and that is, we do accept these double wide units under the Ru ral and Native Housing program - oh, I'm sorry, under the Rur al Mortgage Lending Program. This is a program whereby we are the financing agency along with the credit union and this is for people who want to buil d in the country, that is, as opposed to living in the towns or the cities. MR. BROWN: If lots were made available by various commu nities and where people could purchase their own lots to move these homes on, I believe that this is probably the major stumbling block why they cannot get long-term financing.

I wonder, is the Minister's department encouraging towns to set some lots aside that people can pur chase so that they would own these lots? MR. EVANS: 1 understand the Mun icipal Planning Branch is encouraging the commun ities along these lines of setting land aside for this type of accommoda tion. MR. BROWN: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that I missed part of the Department of Northern Affairs Estimates - I was unaware I'd be out of town then - but the part that I was interested in, the Minister 2140

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 can probably bring me up-to-date on his department's involvement with the prefab housing unit at Churchill. I understand there were considerable losses in that operation and I wonder if he could bring us up-to-date on how many units they have purchased and what price they paid for the housing units they bought from the Churchill Prefab Housing. MR. EVANS: Yes, we will have to check that, Mr. Chairman. Just a moment. We will get the figure for you in a minute.

While we're waiting for that, I might take this opportu nity to table the information that was asked by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek last evening and that is the detailed listing of the 19 76 program under pub lic housing and I have several copies here indicating locations in rural Manitoba plus locations in the City of Winnipeg; numbers of units EPH - meaning the senior citizens' accommodation, the elder ly, FPH meaning the Famil y Public Housing - also showing the amount of loan, the amount of pro vincial lending and the contractor involved . So these are now available. Mr.

Chairman, we are just calculating the number for the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Churchill Prefab Plant is currently wor king on a contract for 19 units, I think these are bungalows. They have previously been involved in the construction of 265 units in the area. In addition to that, I might add that Churchill has another 10 0 units but they were build by the private sector. They were not built by the Prefab Pla nt, that's what I mean . MR. BLAKE: Could the Min ister tel l me the cost of these 19 units, per unit? MR. EVANS: Yes, we estimate, Mr.

Chairman, that they are probably about $50,0 00 per unit. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I wonder what square footage these houses would be at $50,000.00. MR. EVANS: About 1, 000 square feet. MR. BLAKE: That's $50.00 a square foot. Do they build any larger units? MR. EVANS: They did, Mr. Chairman. Of course, if you've been up there, you will see the type of structu res or there are pictu res but these are different, of course. These are strictly bungalo ws, the 19 that we are talking about.

Staff advises me that the reason we have switched to the bunga lows, one of the reasons, is that we believe we can produce a cheaper unit with this type of structure. Incidentally, the original proposal was for these units to be $70,000 and we've cut them down, as I said , to $50,000.00. But you must understand that the cost of getting mate rials and so forth in the north are much ... Well there's quite a cost in transportation and there are other costs assoc iated with northern buildin g that we don't necessarily experience in Southern Manitoba. MR. BLAKE: That's right. I am fully aware of that.

At $70,0 00 a unit though, how many square feet was that? MR. EVANS: About 1, 300-1 ,400 square feet. MR. BLAKE: And that would be a one-family unit? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could exp lain why they would want to build such large units in the north where heating is such a proble m? Would not the smaller units be the only way to fly up there? MR. EVANS: Yes. Well, this is why we've gone to smaller units because the heating is less of a problem . MR.

BLAKE: Of the 265 units that they have buil t, how many did the department Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation buy and were they the larger units, were they the $70,000 homes? MR. EVANS: Of the 365 units, 19 2 were built and paid for by the Federal Government for their empl oyees according to their specifications and they are the fancy ones, they are the larger ones. At any rate, 17 3 were those built for the Man itoba Housing Corpor ation as such for other persons living at Churchill. MR. BLAKE: They were the smaller units at around the $50,0 00 figure? MR.

EVANS: No, the $50,0 00 figure, I am referring to 19 that are under construction now. Those are the bungalows that are under construction now. MR. BLAKE: Are the 19 2 or the 10 0 and whatever is left out of the other 365 units, what size and what cost were they? MR. EVANS: They were two storeys and they tended to be duplexes and they are 12 00 to 1300 square feet. We ll, prices vary but a typical price on these units that were built a couple of years ago in Churchill was $52,700.00. MR. BLAKE: And these are the ones that are constructed using a telepost type of stabil ization unit in them? What is your success?

What is the success story on that type of construction using a telepost in the permafrost? Has it been more successful in there than the foundation type or the slab type? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourablee Minister. 2141

Wedne sday, April 20, 1977 MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. BLAKE: The Church i 11 prefab housing units suffered considerable losses in the construction of the homes according to the auditor's report. Would this be the reason that they have increased their price? Were the previous units not costed out properly or did the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation benefit from the lower cost or . . . ? MR. EVANS: I didn't hear the first part of the question, I am sorry. MR.

BLAKE: The Churchill preab housing operations suffered substantial losses on the construction of houses and I just wondered if the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation benefited from the cost. The units obviously weren't priced properly or they wouldn't have lost so much money. MR. EVANS: I guess we did benefit in the sense that we got them perhaps at a lower cost than some people would say we should have. We think they are a lower cost than what we would have had to pay the private sector in Churchill. I justed wanted to add to that these buildings we are talking of have no basement.

So this is why the square footage tends to be bigger, eh? Not bigger, but you may say, "Well, why a thousand square feet? Why not something ab it smaller than that even?'' But this is a no-basement structure that we are talking about with the bunga lows and of course we were talking about earlier with the earlier type of construction. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just to clarify my point, I just want to quote this paragraph from the auditor's report. 'The deficit of operations as at March 31st, 19 76, has been established at $3,028,306.00.

The contract prices with Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation are being renegotiated. Subject to any adjustment to these contracts, the deficit will have to be absorbed by the province. In any event the province will have to contribute to the funding of any adjustments." This was my reason for questioning the Minister on the benefits involved, the renegotiation ofthe contract. If you are only taking nineteen units, it is obvious that the price wasn't really attractive to you. Would you be taking another 16 5 or whatever .. . ? MR. EVANS: If you have been up there, Mr.

Chairman, you 've seen we have pretty well rebuilt the town and I think we are working on the nineteen now. I understand with regard to the previously-built structures, that seemingly ... has agreed to some price increases which will be passed on the to the Churchill prefab plant and recovery could be in the order of appr oximately half a million dollars. MR. BLAKE: So that the taxpayers will subsidize the Churchill prefab housing or the housing in Churchill to the tune of about $2-% mil lion roughly? . MR. EVANS: You mean if you su btract this from ... ? MR.

BLAKE: Yes, if we absorb the losses of the Churchil l prefab on those housing units. MR. EVANS: You mean if the government absorbs it through the .... MR. BLAKE: Yes. The auditor says that subject to the adjustment, the deficit will have to be absorbed by the province. MR. EVANS: Yes, yes. There is a cost, you know, in the and theauditor has indicated the financial situation. I would point out though that this program has been very successful in terms of human development, social developm ent. When it was at its peak we took everyone off of welfare; there was virtually nobody on welfare.

And some of the peop le that went through this training program, and indeed they had to be trained, many of them had never used a hammer before in some cases, that after they had some training and had some experience, some went on to other jobs in the community and sometimes out of the community. Some of them never looked back, they never went back on welfare. And there are a lot of case studies on how some of the families were lifted from the depths of despair and how the family situation imp roved with the childr en, with the wife, and so on, so there is MR.

BLAKE: lt is better to have children with the wife, that's the handiest way. MR. EVANS: Beg your pardon? MR. BLAKE: I said the handiest way is to have children with a wife. MR. EVANS: At any rate, some people have childr en and they don't have any wives. MR. BLAKE: I realize that. it's just not quite as acceptable, that's all. MR. EVANS: But the fact is that on the credit side of the ledger, I would just say there is a net benefit to society. Now whether you could have achieved that net benefit with fewer dollars is a matter for debate.

I am not in a position to debate that but I must say, however, that the people in that community, if you talk to the people in the community, I think there is unanimity among all people there, that this program was of great benefit to improving the quality of life in Churchill. MR. BLAKE: I apprecia te the Minister's comments, Mr. Chairman. We realize there are social and human benefits to these prog rams. We found that out with Sau nders Aircraft. There were social and human benefits there but it cost us about $40 million.

I realize the training of those native people and providing empl oyment in an area such as Churchill is very very important, but my concern is that if you are only going to take nineteen units this year, how do we keep that work force busy? Are there more orders? Do they have enough work to 2142

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 keep that work force busy or when does it dry up? What is the mar ket for housing in the north? MR. EVANS: One of the reasons I am pleased about the establishment of the Arctic re-supply is that is does give us an oppor tunity to sup ply housing to ports along the Hudson Bay area, particularly the western side, I guess, of Hudson Bay, and par ts of the Northwest Territories. The prefab - you know we are a bit off the subject because I am not responsible for the prefab.

I have seen the plans and I know some of the problems they have had - but I would just say that they are going to have to develop markets in northern Manitoba. Any sign ificant development in that area will give them a boost whether it be a polar gas line or whether it be some federal decision to put housing in place in the Territories, or whether we can help them sell housing (I am talking about Industry and Commerce now) to areas in northern Manitoba south of Churchill.

I understand at the present time the Churchill prefab is negotiating with the CNR for their housing requirements along the Hudson Bay lines, the railway line, and also they are bidd ing on Manitoba Hydro's housing requirements. I wish them lots of luck. But, Mr. Chairman, we are off of our Estimates when we are tal king about the Churchill prefab in this way. MR. to that on BLAKE: Yes. I was only going to say the Churchill prefab, Mr. Chairman, I was only relating to the number of units bought by Manitoba Housing and Renewal. lt was the Minister that got off his Estimates, not me. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member asked me what is going to be the future of that plant after the nineteen units and that was his question, not mine. MR. BLAKE: Well, no, I wanted to know if Manitoba Housing and Renewal were going to keep buying houses. MR. EVANS: We will buy houses as is required, as we have requirements to pu rchase those houses. MR. BLAKE: That was my question. You have no plans to pu rchase 15 0 homes or 200 homes this year from the Churchill prefab unit? MR. EVANS: No. MR. BLAKE: No. Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 77(a) . The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, on this

schedule here that we have just been given a minute ago, and it's Publi c Housing'

section 43, NH A, 19 76 Program Comm itted. lt is not in this city. I guess some of it is in this city. Yes, it is. lt is rural and city. Can the Min ister indicate if all ofthese were through the proposal system of through tenders or which ones were through proposal and which ones were through tender? MR. EVANS: All of the projects outside of the City of Winnipeg were by the normal tendering system and those in Winnipeg - well, we would have to go through them -s ome were proposal call, some were by the tendering system. I thought we gave that information yesterday, how many projects we have.

I think we gave a figure of about 27 proposal calls but that was for a two-year period in the City of Winnipeg . We could indicate which were proposals. lt will take a little while. We could give you that information but we would have to .... MR. PATRICK: lt still would be on the sheet, wou ldn't it? MR. EVANS: Everything in the 19 76 program, that is, these are commitments made in 19 76. The reason we use commitments is because .... I can give you the number of units that were tendered in Winnipeg, elderly persons 334 units. MR. PATRICK: Can you give me it by project number? MR. EVANS: No·.

This would be a total but we will have to go through it and indicate it for you. But of the units commited in 19 76 in Winnipeg, of the elderly persons' housing, 334 were tendered and 133 units were tendered for family housing. But the staff is checking over the list and I will give it to you as soon as I can. MR. PATRICK: You can give it to me by project number? ME. MR. EVANS: Yes. We'll give it to you, right. MR. PATRICK: Are we still using the proposal call at the present time? MR. EVANS: There is no proposal call at the present time but there is a good possibil ity of us having to go with a proposal call.

We have had a land call, Mr. Chairman, where we have advertised and we have asked for persons who have had land to sell to us - I think we have done that twice now - and we have had some success, but rather limited. lt was rather disapp ointing, the offers to sell that came in, and we are very actively seeking out land, suitable land sites, particu larly in the inner city of Winnipeg .

And we do wish, as an objective, to obtain as much suitable land so that we might build on it, but in the meantime we have a program to deliver and we have some objectives to meet and we are likely going to have to use, au least for part of our program, the proposal call system. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I have, to the Minister, no argument with the proposal call, but would not the Minister agree that there would be a mixture of, say, a proposal and a tender system, 2143

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 because I still am inclined to believe that you are not actually paying too much for the land on a tender system. I can talk from experience because I know where the land was on the market for some six months or a year at some $44,000, it was pu rchased by somebody from Portage, and MHR C, through the proposal system, app roved the price for that land at $1 25,000.00 Now I am fa miliar with that situation but how many more that ran the same ... ?

So my question to the Minister is, would it not be more wise and better, and perhaps you may be getting a variety of different types of constructions where you have a good piece of land, that you quite likely can make a better buy for it than even any contractor can, unless he already owns the land, and then call for tenders on that piece of prope rty. And I am sure that at least you would distribute the work amongst build ers in the city, for one thing, they all want to work.

And you would, at the same time - which in the construction industry, I don't think there is still a better system than the tender system - and at the same time you may be getting a pretty good product. I can just relate one example. There is the elderly, low rental on Selkirk. I don't know who it was built by. lt was built about two years ago and the per unit cost was between $12 ,000 and $1 5,000.00. The per unit cost we were looking at in 19 76 was pretty high, either on the tender system or on the proposal system, you are looking at $25,000 and $30,000, you are close to $30,000.

And the construction, there is no comparis on. None. And if the Min ister has so many doubts, I would like to take him for a ride and show him the exact location and sites. So, as I say, because of the demand and requirement and need you may have an argument and a point to me to say that we have to use the proposal system because we needed units very quickly, and if you go the other way, calling tenders, architects drawings, and so on, it will take years to do it and we couldn't afford to do that. But I still say that there must be a better measure than strictly a proposal call.

How do you know that you are getting the best value for your dol lar and how do you know that you are ... ?Y ou know I am talking a lot of money when you are looking at $40,000 and $1 25,000, and I would like to know how many other situations that we were under the same conditions. MR. ·EVANS: Mr. Chairman, if I could indicate to the honourable member the project numbers that were under the proposal call system and you might mark it off, which you can do very quickly. I will do it in reverse. I will let you check off the ones that were tendered because there are fewer items to check off.

If you cou ld jus t start at the top, this is under the Winnipeg program, eh? There is nothing that went to proposal cal l outside of Winnipeg, so this is on Page 2, Project Numb er 7,41 2, see it at the very top there? MR. PATRICK: Yes. MR. EVANS: You could check that one. MR. PATRICK: Is that a proposal? MR. EVANS: That is a tender. MR. PATRICK: That's a tender, okay. MR. EVANS: I am giving you the tenders. The next one, 7,52 0. The next one, 7,547. MR. PATRICK: These are all tenders, eh? MR. EVANS: Yes. The next one, 7,5 78. The next one, 7,580. Then you drop down to 7, 601 ; 7,61 1; 7,61 2.

Then you drop again to 7, 624. And then if you turn over the page to 7, 637; 7,638; and 7,641 , those were the projects that were tendered, and the others were proposal calls. MR. PATRICK: How many construction contractors were involved last year in the proposal calls? MR. EVANS: The name of the contractor is shown on the right-hand side, Mr. Chairman, so that you can see the name of the contractor. Those that you have not checked off are proposal calls, so you can see the names of the compan ies involved. So that you should answer your question, I believe. Mr.

Shairman , I just wanted to state, I guess something that I stated yesterday when the Honourable Member for Assiniboia wasn't here, and that is that we examined the average costs from the proposal cal ls for a two-year period and they do compare favourably with the average costs from the tendering system. In fact we read off the figures and get a lower average price. 1 can read it off again. Fo r the proposal -t hese are the all-out costs, that is the land and the building, everything - $34.76 a square foot by proposal cal l and it was $36.62 a foot by the tendering system. MR.

PATRICK: What is the difference in construction? Do they compare quite favourably because you can compare maybe the Fred Tipping building here on Osborne to one of the more recent and now you say, you know, there's not very much to compare really. MR. EVANS: Well, 1 can on ly say, Mr. Chairman, that I can state categorically that all the requirements met the National Bu ilding Code requirements and they had to meet all of the City of Winnipeg requirements, you know, for fire, safety, parking, etc. MR. PATRICK: Well, one may be concrete construction or brick and the other one may be frame and stucco or something.

MR. EVANS: You must understand in the "proposal call" system, Mr. Chairman, that the 2144

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 corporation receives when a cal l is made quite a list of proposals and then we pick and choose and we, I guess, negotiate as hard as we possib ly can. I know we negotiate as hard as we possibly can to get the very best. Of the 85 proposals that were received in the last couple ofy ears, we only appr oved 27 of them , that's 32 percent, and, you know, we're looking for a design, the materials to be used and the locations, etc.

I would also point out that one of the reasons, of course, well the basic reason for the proposal call system is the lack of suitable land and, in some cases, we had difficulties, time problems. I am not saying they were absolutely insurmountable but there were time problems associated with rezoning and, in some of the lands that we could have used but we didn't because of that reason; but generally speaking I would make the general statement that there was and still is a shortage of good land sites. MR. PATRICK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, ! would challenge the Min ister's last answers that he has given to me because I would doubt that very much. The last three proposal calls that you have on the go, the one on Selkirk, the one on Broadway and Young, and the one at Country Club Road and Portage, they are all proposal calls. You say that it's because they could n't get the land. That land, all those locations have been on the market not for three months, six ,o months, but on the market for years, so, you know, MHR C could have just as easily bought those locations at a lesser price than what we finally got involved in ... MR.

EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we get into discussing the item we were discussing again yesterday and that is some frustration we have experienced in acquiring the land. We have a process, the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek went into this in some detail yesterday and that is the difficulties we have been having in obtaining land, using the Land Acquisition Branch and the Land Value Appraisal Commission appr oach. it is one thing to say, you know, here's a piece of land, it's available, let's go and buy it.

But it is another thing to get a figure from the Land Value Appraisal Commission that the vendor, the seller will accept and we have been having di fficulti es in this area and we had some discussion about this yeste rday. MR.

PATRICK: Well, perhaps, you know, the staff at MHRC can sharpen their pencils much more and just be aware of what's going on in the industry because, look, I can indicate to him that if two and a half acres or almost two acres of land on Selkir k has been offered to MHR C at around $44,000 but they appr oved the appraisal and it was sold to the contractor who finally built a project for $1 25,000 and I think the Appraisal Board appr oved it at $80,000 or something to put the transaction through and that's the fact.

So, what I am saying, you know, that the prices at some of these locations were not that high; they were there. Can the Minister indicate to me what was the price paid for the land on Selkirk Avenue? MR. EVANS: On Selkirk Avenue? Selkirk and Battery. MR. PATRICK: Yes. MR. EVANS: I think we issued a news release on this because it was a matter of some discussion in the media last fall, last November and we understand the proponent paid $1 23,598.46 for the land.

And in this instance, the LVAC, the Land Value Appraisal Commission, certified it at a price that was less than what the vendor wou Id accept at that time, and it was less than the $1 23,000- it was in excess of $80,000.00. MR. PATRICK: In excess of $80,000.00. But that same land was offered to MHR C for $44,000.00. MR. EVANS: The staff advise me they are not aware of that. We were negotiating in the $80,000 range. We have no recollection, I am advised, of the $44,000 figure that you refer to because I'm sure there would have been no hesitation, we would have taken it.

We would have had no problem with the Land Value Appraisal Commission. MR. PATRICK: But, again, this is where I am questioning the Minister because there was a sign on that property for a year and it was advertised at that price and there were several phone calls from different people to the offices of MH RC and the reply was that they don't buy any land. MR. EVANS: Well, it's unusual.

We have our own land acquisition staff, you know, wit hin MHRC and they are qualified professional appr aisers and they are going virtual ly around the clock, or at least, they are under a lot of pressure and we're buying land - anything that looks good, we will be very interested to look at. MR. PATRICK: . .. they don't know where to look, Mr. Minister. MR.

EVANS: Well, as I've said , we just advertised a couple of months ago, we have advertised twice now for offers for land and we have been talking to the City, obtaining lists of land available that the City knows of includ ing condemned properties and there are other sources and we've been pursu ing these actively right now. But, ultimately, the price has to be appr oved by LVAC and ... MR. PATRICK: Yes, well this is I think a communication gap. ln the office of MHRC and your Land Acquisition Board, there's just either no commun ication or they are not operating to the .. . MR.

EVANS: There's lots of communication and lots of dialogue but, at any rate, this is .. . MR. PATRICK: If the Min ister has any doubts, I can produce some witnesses, the people that phoned MHR C and said , "Look, this land is here for a year now." You know, it bogg les my mind because I can't see why some speculator didn't buy it because anywhere in the City, close to two 2145

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 acres of land at $44,000, you just can't buy land at that price but it was there on a multiple listing - I can produce you a multipl e listing- for a year. MR. EVANS: Well, what year was that, Mr. Chairman? MR. PATRICK: 19 75, 19 76. MR. EVANS: Well, I've asked the staff and they shake their heads in disbelie f and if you want to bring in the evidence, that's fine. MR. PATRICK: I shake mine in disbel ief, too.

The reason I'm citing that case, I'm saying, okay, how many more cases are the same because I know the land at Country Club Road and Portage has been on the market for at least five years because I talked to the owners two years ago, three years ago, five years ago. I know that land on Young was on the market for quite some time.

So what I'm saying, you know, the Land Acq uisition Board could offer a price to somebody for some land but probably six months later, you'd get a call back and say, "Yes, we'll sell it for your price," because if they're sitting on the land and they're not there to buil d themselves, then to say that it was strictly land ... you know, I just can't buy that because I know the three sites that I've quoted, that land has been on the market for years and what's happened with the transaction on one of them, probably is happen ing all over the City and I am concerned, that would concern me greatly. MR.

EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable Member for Assiniboia has knowledge of land sites that we might be able to use, I would honestly and sincerely extend to him a request, really, to suppl y us with that type of information. We have been seeking information on land available for housing, particu larly family housing, but all types of housing, and as I said, we've had some recent listings from the City and we've advertised and if you have some information, we wou ld certainly pursue that and we wou ld look forward to receiving a list from you or even individual letters ind icating one site at a time. MR.

PATRICK: I appreci ate the invitation and I'll have to start doing that because I feel that we're really not spending our money wisely, as far as the land acquisition is concerned. The point that I am trying to make, I will bring to the Minister the multiple listing of that property that was on the market for a year at $44,000.00. If you have any doubts, I'll bring you the multiple listing. And to say, you know, the officials at MH RC are just looking all over with a comb, all over the City looking for land, nobody's looking at all.

If something is on the market at that price for the year and it doesn't take much intelligence to see that almost two acres of land at $40,000 is, you know, the greatest buy that you can make in this City. But I will bring you the multiple listing just to show you that that's what it was listed at; it was listed at $44,000 and it sold for $40,000 and then immediately MR. EVANS: Well, I wo uld .r epeat, Mr.

Chairman, that our land acquisition peop le may go to a particular vendor and make a deal, you know, at what we consider to be a reasonable price but then we must go to the Land Value Appraisal Commission and if, as has happened many a time, it's no secret, we don't get a certificate at that level and that's exactly what happened at Selkirk and Battery, they would not appr ove the sale of land at the price that we were prepared to buy it at based on the advice of our own professional appraisers. Now, it was at $89,000, they would not approve that price and, at any rate, we are limited , we can't buy. MR.

PATRICK: Again, I have no argument against the staff because they're probably trying to do their best. The point is, with all the transactions going and maybe there's some that they are not aware of, but if the MH RC can subscribe to multi ple listings, they'll know pretty close what's on the market and if they .... I see one of the officials indicating that perhaps they are and, if they are, they shouldn't have missed that one. Because what's happened is ... say they weren't going to accept anything less than $1 25,000 or $89,000 or something, that was the limit.

At that stage, you were paying a speculative price but it was exposed to you three or four months before for $40,000 and stayed there for a year and nobody was buying. So that's why I am saying that somehow and, of course, maybe with all the transactions and all the listings, you can't be familiar with all of them but I am saying that if somebody is really keen and wants to acquire land in the offices of MHRC and I think that you can make some good deals in the City and could have been making good deals.

The point that 1 am trying to demonstrate to the Minister is just this one case indicates that something went wrong. That we're not buying at the best pric e. Well, we don't speculate in any land. We sell fee for service. Al l our transactions in our offices are strictly, we collect commission if we do a transaction for anybody. -(I nterjection)- Well, we don't do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der please. MR. PATRICK: I will not pursue that but if the Min ister wants me to produce the multiple on that listing that was exposed for that long, I will just to assure his mind I am not making something up. MR.

EVANS: Well, as I indicated to the honourable member, the staff did not have any knowledge of the land being offered at that price and I don't know what I can do about that. But what I am concerned about is the present and the future and if the honourable member has any knowledge of land that is available, I would appreci ate it if he wou ld bring it to our attention. I mentioned advertisements. I understand there is advertisements going out this week or there has 2146

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 been an advertisement out this week as of Friday. The land proposal calls presently out are closing this Friday and then another one will go out again in a week's time, a week Friday. MR. PATRICK: I have one more question, not on the land pu rchases but on the proposal system.

In discussions with many bui lders in the City - of course, when probably they haven't got jobs, that's the story that you get from their side - but their indication is that through a tender system you may get a better product, you may not get a lower price per unit, but you may get a better product and at least, I think, that you would keep the employees of various contractors emp loyed, probably set up most of the work going to one contractor. That's the complai nts that have been coming to me from many bui lders saying, "Well why not on a tender system.

If I don't get the job, then I have no compla ints, I can't argue but through the proposal system because I haven't got the land then I can't even tender." So what they're saying is' the government is going to pay the price for the land anyhow se why doesn't MHRC pu rchase the land and then call for tenders and not only will we be satisfied maybe at the same time, the public will be getting as good a product or even maybe sometimes a better product. MR. EVANS: Yes. Well, Mr . Chairman, as I indicated we have a drive on to obtain as much land as possible.

If one were optim istic' perhaps we will have enough land so that by next year we can use the tendering system 10 0 percent. And I think indicative of this is that outside of Winnipeg, we have not used the proposal cal l system, we have used the tendering system . So because land acquisition has not been a prob lem, not really I think the tendering system would keep more people happy and may be the superior way but I just want to note also that the construction specifications that we have are identical for both the tendered type and the proposal call project. I mean, the specs are the same.

And, you know, there may be differences of appearance and so on. At any rate, I don't know whether we can resolve this any way. I've indicated to you why we have gone the waywe have and that we will likely go this direction at least for a percentage of our program this coming year. MR. PATRICK: Can the Min ister indicate and I am sure that the officials from the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation have some indication what our housing needs will be in, you know, sort of a long-range plan, be it a five-year or a ten-year plan and what is our dev elop ment potential as well.

I know that there's the Land Banking Program. The thing that I'd be really interested · in is how many serviced lots will come on stream, say, every year for the next five years, in 19 77, '78, '79 .... how many lots will be serviced lots that are projected to come on stream, private and MH RC? I think that is the only way that you can assess or get proper planning of what's going on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: You are only as king about serviced lots. You are ta lking about serviced lots in general and how many may come on the market each year. MR. PATRICK: For the next, say, five years.

MR. EVANS: it's hard to answer that question because part of it depends on what the demand is. The pr ivate sector does respond to what the demand is based on popu lation growth or family formation. So it's pretty difficu lt for us to say, you know, "this is the number of serviced lots that are likely to come on." We can make that estimate. As far as we're concerned, we're just now getting into the business of developing subdivisions or serviced land. And as I indicated yesterday, again we're hopeful that in a matter of a few weeks, we'll be able to begin advertising this program.

If we are fortunate, we could probably put out a thousand at least. This year,. the first phase of the project, north of lnkster, is going to give us about 850 units approxi mately, units not lots, units. That's the first phase and that's about half of that development. And we have land in the Charleswood area and in St. Boniface. For this year, the land that will come on stream will be just in the northwest Winnipeg area and Charleswood area. There were plans to develop south St. Boniface and one or two other areas, but it's contingent upon Commun ity Committee appr oval.

So the one that we can look forward to, in the near future, and particularly for this year, it has been appr oved by the Lord Sel kirk Community Committee, and that's the project in the northwest

section of the city. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The time being 4:30, and Private Members' Hour, Commit tee rise and report. 2147

THE LEG IS LATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Wednesday, April 20, 1977 ESTIM ATES- CONTIN UING EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I would refer honourable members to Page 16 of their Estimates Book, the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower. Resolution 41(

c) Red River Community College

(1) Salaries $1 1 ,788,900.00. The Honourable Min ister of Continuing Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, at one point yesterday, . in response to a question asked me to indicate the enrolment of our community colleges - and I appr eciate the fact that it does not relate specifically to 41 (

c) but it must have related to possibly 41 (

a) or 41 (b) - he asked me to reconcile the figu res that I gave him for enrolments at the commun ity colleges last year with the ones that I gave him last evening. In checking on this I find that the figures that I gave in both instances were those that were available and were used as the basis for the Estimates, the Estimates that I gave last year for 19 75-76 which totalled $1 5,664 for day school and $18,10 7 for evening school programs, totalled $33,771 . The figures I gave last evening for the same period were $13,17 8 for day school and $20, 290 for evening school, totalling $33,468.00.

If you will note, Mr . Chairman, there were discrepancies between the Estimates of last year and the actual figures available now insofar as the components are concerned, but that the two totals, the $33,771 which was the Estimate and $33,468 which was the actual are quite close. The difference is only $303, so the percentage error is less than one percent. In a similar fashion, Mr.

Chairman, the figures I gave last evening for 19 76-77 are those on which the Estimates are based and will be revised shortly when all the data from the fiscal year 19 76-77 which has just ended are put together to give the actual figur es. Also, Mr. Chairman, and this now relates to 41 (c), I want to clarify the situation with respect to the discussion which took place yesterday evening regarding the aircraft maintenance course.

As I indicated last evening we have not been satisfied with the course we are offering because it did not lead to certification by the Ministry of Transport and it was designed for a very specific purpose, to service a particular type of aircraft, and primari ly the smal l type of aircraft, that many of the smaller operators of the province fly.

I was under the impression that a meeting had been held last week to try to resolve this whole matter, but in fact the meeting is on right now and includes representatives from MOT, from the industry, from the unions, from four other provinces, from our Department of Labour and from Red River Community College. The proposal which seems to be the strongest one is that the trades in this area become designated trades and therefore that the trai nees become apprentices.

Now if this route is followed, as I indicated last evening, Red River Community College will be involved in the institution-based training component as it is in any designated trade. I should say, however, that this route is not without its problems because it would appear that it will extend the training period to four years, which extends somewhat beyond the training period that some of the smaller business enterp rises in the air transportation industry require for their own pu rposes.

Another possible alternative would be a co-operative program which would be collegebased, that would involve co-operative training in industry and there are problems with this approa ch. If it were followed, it would not be possible to have an intake this fal l because course outl ines would need to be developed and arrangements made with particip ating emp loyers for the learning activities of students on the job. These arrangements are fairly complicated and require a high level of commitment from participating emp loyers.

Furthermore this approach would also require ( negotiations with the MOT National Accred iting Committee regarding certification using this type of del ivery. There is no question, Mr.

Chairman, that there is a need all across Canada to deal with the training of the various special ists that are required in the aircraft industry and to ensure that any training is recognized all across Canada so that certified people can work with any company and in any province. lt is with the comp lexities associated with all the foregoing that the meeting that I mentioned, which is on today and will continue tomorrow, will try to deal. And when their deliberations are over and we are presented with their conclusions, we will then be in a position to consider what steps we ought to take. lt is our hope, Mr.

Chairman, that some resolution of the situation will be possible at an early date so that proper steps can be taken to deal with th is matter. I do want to make clear, Mr. Chairman, that to establish and operate an entirely institutio n-based program similar to that given in Thunder Bay, for example, entails a level of costs which we feel is prohibited. We initiated the present course at a reasonable level similar to our other pre-employment courses to try to meet some of the needs of local compan ies. A co-operative or an apprentice ship program is within our capab ilities. 1 should say, Mr.

Chairman, that the situation within the industry itself is a rather confused one and th is confusion makes it all the more difficult to resolve the matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garr y. 2148

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask a question oft he Min ister at the risk of repetition, Sir, so I will accept your dir ection on it. I unfortunately was not able to be present during last evening's sitti ng of the committee due to another political comm itment and I wanted to ask the Minister in this particular area that we are looking at whether he has had any conversations with the Manitoba Aviation Council on this aircraft maintenance course. He may have already dealt with that and if so, I will wait for Hansard, Sir, but may I put the question to him anyway? MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, I have received a letter from Manitoba Aviation Council requesting a meeting with me which, as the letter reached me within the past week, no more than two weeks ago, and offhand I cannot recall that a meeting date has been set but I indicated the willi ngness to meet with the council. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister whether in that letter or whatever exchange of communication has taken place so far between him and the council, whether the council has made clear to him what it feels is the major shortcoming of the course at Red River Community College, and that is that it doesn't have Ministry of Transport accreditation because of space and training requirements which apparently are not met at Red River Community College. Has that point been emphasized to the Minister and what would his response be to that? MR.

HANUSCHAK: My response to the Aviation Council will be just what I have given a few minutes ago as of today. Now at the time that I will meet with the Aviation Council, I hope to have further information pursuant to the meetings which had taken place yesterday, or today and tomorrow.

Aviation Counci l I am aware of the concerns of the as they have set them out in their letter and that is what I will discuss with them, but at the time of my meeting with them I hope to be armed with the information that I will receive flowing out of the meeting which is presently taking place involving peop le in the air transportation industry, the Mi nistry of Transport, Department of Labour and labour unions. MR. SHERMAN: One final question on the point, Mr. Chairman.

Can the Minister advise the committee whether, as the Aviation Council has suggested, the course is in imminent danger of cancellation or is that an imminent danger? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well no, Mr. Chairman, the present course insofar as the students presently enrolled are concerned, that course will continue. But there is a wish, a desire, and an attempt is being made on our part to revise and upgr ade the course to meet the requirements of the Ministry of Transport and to'meet the requirements of the industry in general, as I had indicated in my statement of a few minutes ago.

But those presently enrolled will comp lete their course. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has supplie d us with some additional information on enrolments. I might just point out that the differences in totals were quite slight. I was attempting to divide and copy the figures for each institution separately and it was in this area that I was finding a slight difficulty.

However, the total difference is not sufficiently large to cause any great concern.! would like to discuss now, the information which the Minister has given us in relation to the aircraft maintenance mechanics course.

I understand now that the meeting going on today will largely determine whether the Red River Community College and the department will proceed with an institutional ly-based course or whether they will go to a co-operative program which will involve appr enticeship training and which will involve co-operation with industry, presumably in the Winnipeg area, where students will obtain practical experience as part of their total course. I'm concerned, of course, about the fact that one option open would extend the total training period from the present three years, which is now in effect, to four years.

I'm sure that a student embarki ng on such a training program would prefer the present totally industry-based appren ticeship training to the kind of combi ned course, or institutionally-based course, which the Minister describes as an alternative. I assume then that should the course be conducted entirely by the school that it would be necessary to provide a hangar and aircraft as part of the capital equipment of the Red River Community College in order to proceed along that route. So it would appear fairly obvious' Mr.

Chairman, and perhaps the Minister could confirm this' that there is only one real course open and that would be a co-operative form of training in which industry would be invited to partici pate in a three-year program, which would be up to specifications and requirements of the Ministry of Transport, and which would produce on successful comp letion, a licence which would be acceptable anywhere in Canada in the aviation industry.

In view of the Minister's most recent information, I assume now he would wish to correct the impression and the answers he gave last night when the assurance was given that a course would continue this fall at Red River Community College. Is the indication now that there will be a temporary interruption in terms of enrolments in an aircraft mechanics course at Red River Community College? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, if, as I have indicated, that the decision has not been made whether it will be a co-operative or apprentice ship type of course. If it's an appr enticeship 2149

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 course offered in a similar fashion to apprentice ship courses in other designated trades which do involve our community colleges where the apprentice spends the major portion of his time working as an apprentice, employed by whomever, and a portion of his time at the community college. Then if it's that type of course, then it definitely will continue this fall. And as I've indicated in my statement, if the decision should be to offer a co-operative type of course then, again as I have indicated, will require some time to plan and prepare.

Now with respect to upgr ading and expand ing the course content and upgr ading it to provide the students enrolled with the type of - and before I come to that I should also make reference to those presently enrolled - if there are any who have not compl eted the course in this year they certainly will have the opportunity to do so next year so there will be no one who will be forced to drop out in mid-stream, as it were. This course I should also mention' is a one-year course that is presently being offered.

Now insofar as the capital equipment, it may be necessary to offer an upg raded type of course that will meet the requirements of the day. Arrangements are being negotiated with some of the air carriers in Winnipeg who have the physical space and the aircraft for students to work on. In fact an offer has been made of such space and I believe - I'm not quite certain whether it's space, I know that an offer of an aircraft has been made - yes, of space at a nominal fee of one dol lar for the use of the students.

And that offer, no doubt' is being made by that particular air carrier with the hope, in fact with a reasonable hope and expecta tion, that this course will provide them with a supply of future emp loyees working in that

part icular area. MR. McGILL : Mr. Chairman, instead of becoming clearer I'm becoming more confused. Now you talk about an apprentice ship type of training. That's what exists at the present time, where young men can go into an app roved overhaul shop and work under a licenced engineer for three years and get an aero-engine mechanic's licence on successful comp letion of examinations, without any appr oach to Red River Community College. That exists now.

But the co-operative type course, I took to be a course where the Red River Community College would provide certain classroom instruction and would be suppl emented by co-operative training on the job or appr enticeship, as you call it, in the industry and that that would be the route in which you would go if you chose to co-operate with the aviation industry, as you now do with other courses out there such as the hotel, motel industry and the training of peo ple for that trade. Now, am I misunderstanding your explanations or are these the alternatives?

The apprentice ship training, I don't believe you could carry out within the institution itself since you don't have a certified shop that would be accepted and recognized and appr oved by the Ministry of Transport. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, insofar as apprentice ship course is concerned, I'm not quite certain that I understand the point that the Honourable Member for Brandon West is attempting to make. Perhaps I was attempting to listen to two people at the same time at that particular point.

The apprenticesh ip course does involve both a training institution and a tradesman emp loying the student and the student spends part of his time at both. MR. McGILL : Mr. Chairman, it's quite possible at the present time for the young man to obtain, after three years job experience or apprentice ship to an engineer in a certified shop, to obtain that engineers licence, but if the institution is now participating in the form of classroom instruction and so forth, would not that apprentice ship training be part of the co-operative venture with the industry? There are two different routes that could be chosen.

One is the community college route, where he would get general supervision plus so many months, probably a reduced time on the job. The other, the present system, out of the context of the community college service entirely, is the one where three years of continuous training or apprentice ship on the job is required. Now you're offering, I assume' a co-operative course that would provide for classroom and reduced apprentice ship in the industry. Is that correct? MR.

HANUSCHAK: I'm not quite sure what three-year course the honourable member is referring to, because we're not offering a three-year course at the present time. We're offering a one-year course for the aircraft mechanics. There may be one offered elsewhere. Perhaps the honourable member is referring to designated trades in general. Perhaps the three-year course that the honourable member is referring to, that is one that is being offered quite separate and apart from our community colleges, and we have nothing to do with that.

But the new proposal is to estab lish a better course in apprentice ship training with classroom work at the college and the practical experience will be obtained working for someone in the aviation industry. This is one of the objectives of the people in the aviation industry, and the result of that would be the elimination of the three-year course that is presently being offered separate and apart from the commun ity colleges. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, then the course that you are now in the process of determ ining or designing in consultation with all the various interested groups, is one that will be for one year only, is that right? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, it will likely be for four years. The present course that we're offering is a 2150

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 one-year course and that course - I'll take another run at it - it has demonstrated itself to be inadequate for the present day aviation industry needs, for one sector of the aviation industry, because it is reasonably and quite adequate for some of the smaller air carriers that fly smaller aircraft, piston-driven, piston operated engines and the like. it's quite adequate for them but not for the operators of larger aircraft. lt is felt that it will be in the best interests of all to move towards the developmen t and the establishment of the more extensive course, which would be a four-year course.

MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHER IIIIAN: Would the fact that the one-year course has not been working out explain the cutback in the course budget of the past year and can the Minister confirm that the course budget was cut back from $1 20,000 to $20'000.00? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr . Chairman, there wasn't a cutback of that magnitude.

In fact, I would say offharid that I do not believe there was a cutback at all in that particular course. cutback - I am advised that the and this is in relation to the enrolment - would show about an $800 reduction from last year but not, as the honourable member points out, to be in the order of $1 00,000.00. 1t wasn't that at all' about $800 to $1 ,000.00. MR. SHERMAN: So the Minister is saying that the Manitoba Aviation Council is wrong, is incorrect, in its suggestion of a budget of the size that I've just described. Is that . right? MR. HANUSCHAK: That is right. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 41 (c)(1), the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I don't want to extend unnecessarily this discussion , but one thing now occurs to me and that is that assuming the department and the Min istry of Transport and the industry are able to agree upon the new course of training which will involve Red River Community Colle ge and the industry, I assume, will this necessarily mean that the present method of achieving an air engineer's certificate in the trade, involving three years of straight appr enticeship, would that then be withdrawn?

Would this then be the only course available to young persons who set out to obtain such a certificate from the Ministry of Transport? I think that's an important question now, to be put, and the answer to that will be certainly important to those young people who are setting out in the industry. MR. HANUSCHAK: That is our understanding what the MO T wants. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I have an interest in the particular college under discussion from the point of view that I can recall distinctly, in formulating some of the longer term educational policies in the mid-sixties particula rly in the area of this kind of community college, the hope that we would be able to offer to the residents of the lnterlake area generally, the kind of services that the college has. I would invite the Minister to give me some indication as to what degree of success the department is enjoying in terms of attract ing student enrolment from that particu lar area.

I specify the lnterlake as an area that I represent and I have an interest in of course, but also conceptually it was considered, and some of the departmental people will recall that during the mid sixties there was a great deal of discussion as to the location of vocational schools of this nature. There was a considerable amount of interest expressed throughout the region as to the accessibil ity of or the use of which potential students from the lnterlake would make of the facility that was then decided to build in Winnipeg , particularly this facil ity, the Red River Community College.

I know that the Minister has some understanding and background knowledge of the country that I refer to and I would invite the Min ister to give me some indication as to the involvement and the utilization by young people from the lnterlake country in general, not to any specific contingency but just generally, are they availing themselves to the services and the training that is being offered at Red River Community College? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Insofar as enrolment upon the campus of Red River Community College is concerned, I reg ret that I do not have a breakdown on the place of origin of the students, on the town-by-town basis. I suppose that could be obtained. I don't know if we ever had need to obtain it. I don't believe that we have it with us right today. But I can comment upon the courses which we take out to the community, off the campus, into the community.

And they are primarily agricultur al courses and a number of other special programs, and the courses are such in the area of agricultur e, production courses, farm business, management and planning, basic agricultu re, farm maintenance courses and other special courses such as heavy equipment operators, truck-driver training, basic carpentry, homemakers, smal l motor repair, business ski lls, high school orientation, hydraulics, mechanics, building construction, electricals, snowmobile mechanics, home management constructors, bilingu al secretaries, registered nursing refreshionists, suppl ies to the entire province' bombard ier operators, dental assistants.

I am just looking at the list of the com munities to which courses were taken and from my knowledge of the lnterlake, which I think would compare reasonably wel l with the honourable member's, Fisher Branch, Fisher River, Fraserwood, Gimli, Lundar, Moosehorn, Ashern, Peguis, 2151

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 Stony Mountain. Well that's on the fringe of -(I nterjection)- the lnterlake, but I suppose one could include it in there. Yes, Vogar. So really there is a mix of some of the larger communities within the lnterlake, as well as many of the more remote areas from which accessibili ty to places of instruction becomes somewhat more difficult. And in those cases the instructor goes to the commun ity. Those ten or twelve commun ities are amongst .... Well, there's a comp lete list of them over here that I could give the honourable member, if he wishes.

Those are out of a total of, I would say as a rough guess, 60 or 75 commun ities in the Province of Manitoba to which our commun ity college staffs go to deliver the courses such as I have mentioned. MR. ENNS: One further question on the same subject matter.

I would ask, is there a compl ementary program between the Red River Community Colle ge and the vocational classes and courses that are taught at some ofthe larger centres in the lnterlake such as Ashern, Stonewall and can't name them all, but I know that we have a certain amount of vocational training and courses available at some of our high schools in that area and I'm wondering, is there a complem entary nature to it?

Is there a liaison students starting oft in a particu lar course, say at Stonewall or Ashern, then move on with credits gained in that vocational school to comp lete or further out or to bring to conclusion their successful graduation from a particu lar course, that perhaps was started in one of these smaller regional vocational schools in the Inter lake? Can they easily and is the system geared to have that kind of move take place between some of the vocational wings otthe larger high schools in the lnterlake and Red River Community College? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

By and large, the courses offered in the high schools in the lnterlake area in the vocational field are of a business education nature, such as the ones offered at Erik sdale, Lundar and, I would suspect, to some degree, in Fisher Branch and Arborg , Riverton and Gimli. Students enrolled in those courses can continue into our community whether it college in the business or vocational education field' be business administration or a secretarial science course or any other one in a related area. So there is that type of liaison between the high school system and the commun ity college system.

And in addition to that, one would find that across the Province of Man itoba wherever a community college goes into a commun ity to otter a particu lar course, that invariably there is an arrangement worked out between the community college and the school division tor the use, the loan of whatever space of equipment the community college may require to otter its particular course. lt depends, of course, on whether or not the school division has that type of space and equipment available.

But, tor example, it it were in a business education field, then in most cases an arrangement would be made between the community college and the high school tor the use of their typewriters, tor the use of their business machines, calcu lators and the like, to teach the course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber tor Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, one of the oft-camp us courses that the Min ister mentioned, I think , was the heavy equipment operators course, which has been taken to some of the communities that were noted by the Minister.

Will the same oft-campus programs be offered by Keewatin now that this heavy equipment operators course is transferred to The Pas? Will the same arrangements apply, that is, will heavy equipment operators training be offered in all of the communities of southern Manitoba as well, under these circumstances? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes.

When I mentioned the tact that heavy equipment operators courses were offered in commun ities outside of Winnipeg and The Pas and Brandon, they're not offered in all the communities or the heavy equipment operators course isn't offered in every community in Manitoba wherein we otter courses because of the large capital investment required for them. lt has been offered at Birds Hill.

Birds Hill is one community wherein I know that the heavy equipment operators course was offered. lt likely may have been, looking at the past year in some communities in the near vicin ity to The Pas, where it may have been practical to otter the course, but it's quite unlikely that we would otter a heavy equipment operators course in a large number of communit ies in the province. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, any students who would now, and henceforth, be enrolling on such a course would go to The Pas tor this training, and not to Winnip eg as formerly.

I think the Ministerand we mentioned this as a form of co-operative arrangement where facil ities were being used to their best advantage. Does the Red River Community College offer an agricultur al machinery maintenance course at this time? 1 understand there is a growing interest in this course, and I believe something ot this type is now offered at Assiniboine Community College.

Can the Min ister tell the Comm ittee just what is being offered at Red River Commun ity College, what plans are being made tor enlarging the abi lity of the community colleges generally to provide this native industry and give us some idea of what his 2152

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 thinking is in respect to the probable and the most advantageous location of this type of training? MR. HANUSCHAK: At the present time, the course in - what is the exact title? Agricultur al mechanics. Agricultur al mechanics is the exact title of the course. lt is being offered at Assiniboine Community College in Brandon. That, I believe, is the one-year course. There are some students enrolled at Saskatoon, I believe it is, which offers a somewhat more extensive course.

I believe it's a two-year course, a more advanced course, in agricul tural mechanics and some students are enrolled there. But insofar as a course available in the province at the present time, there is only the one offered in Brandon. Now over the past while, I have had representations made to me. And the representations came to me largely from the manufactu rers of farm implements and their distributors. Perhaps I should be careful, there might be a distinction between distributor and dealer.

But anyway, from those involved in the manufacture of farm imple ments and in the sale of farm imp lements at whatever level, to estab lish such a course in Winnipeg , it is felt by some of them that the demand .. .. Well, they have a couple of concerns.

One, it is felt by many of them that there is need for a course somewhat more e--:tensive than that presently being offered at As siniboine Community College, that the one at Assiniboine Community College maybe fine for the smal ltown, villa ge implement dealer, may be fine to meet the needs for the person who's going into farming and into service and maintain his own implements, his own farm equipment, but that today with the comp lexity of farm machinery and that types of repair work that have to be done which do require a fair degree of training and which in the opin ion of the implement industry, that is not available at the present time.

Now I wish to emphasize the point that those have been the wishes expressed by the people in the implement manufacturing and selling business. I have not had any representations coming to me from the farm community requesting the establishment of such a course over here.

But this is still in its exp loratory stages, and no doubt if any move were to be made in that direction to expand the existing course to something more than what it presently is in terms of content and also to base it in Winnipeg in addition to Brandon, or to relocating the ,existing one, or to moving the one from Brandon to Winnipeg, before any decision is made we would want to consult with the agricultur al commun ity as well as the people who are involved in the manufacture and sale of farm imp lements.

One other concern exp ressed by the manufacturers and the sellers of farm imp lements is to develop a closer liaison between the agricultur al course offered in some of our rural regional vocational schools and the farm mechanics course, whereby students graduating from Grade 12 taking the agricu ltural mechanics course in our high schools - one high school offering suc h a course is Selkirk. I believe that Steinbach may also. -(I nterjection)- I'm sorry. And Crocus Plains.

I'm sorry it slipped my mind, but it's the youngest of the regional vocational high schools in the province - to allow graduates from such courses in our high schools credit toward, if a two-year course comes into being, allowing them credit toward a two-year program or some credit toward a one-year program, but at any rate, all owing them some credit for their achievement in the high school program. And that is presently being explored and has not been finalized. I should also mention, Mr. Chairman, that ....

I wou Id just re mind the members of the Committee that at the present time all agricultural programs are offered by Assiniboine Community College. Previously, both Assiniboine and Red River had shared this responsibil ity, but as of the past year, they were all transferred to Assiniboine at Brandon. That is insofar as the campus spaced courses are concerned, and then I want to remind the honourable members that farm management courses were also offered off campus in about 20 communities.

These are offered generally in the fall or early winter in about 20 to 30 commun ities in the areas of which I had mentioned earlier when I listed the off-campus courses which we're offering. MR. McGILL: When we discussed this kind of co-operation earlier in terms of agreements between the prairie provinces and their abi lity to use establis hed facilities to the benefit of the taxpayer by not dupl icating and having to build new ones, it seemed to make eminently good sense.

I think we were certainly in agreement on that and within the province, where it's possible to use establ ished operating courses to provide for all of the needs rather than establishing more than one such course again, it seemed to me was working in the direction in which we should be working, having in mind always that there is that spectre of the next five years or so of some declining enrolments. So, the co-operative arrangements between Red River and Keewatin on the Heavy Duty Equipment Operators course, again was one in which, it seemed to me, we were working in the right direction.

Now that we are dealing with a kind of agricur al course, the majority of which are now centred in the western region of the province, it would seem to me to be, again, good sense to enlarge upon that which is now in place, to extend it to provide for those additional types of training that are required rather than to, again, separate agricu ltural maintenance or mechanics courses between more than one institution.

The Minister, of course, will accuse me of some parochial interest in this matter, but it seems to me to certainly fit with our present trends to use those things which we now have and to enlarge them rather than to dupl icate them in more than one institution at perhaps additional cost. 2153

Wednesday, April 20, 1977 I've no doubt that there is a good argu ment to be made for centralizing all courses in the largest popu lation area of our province, simpl y on the basis that it would be most convenient to the largest number of people in terms of minimum travel and minimum disp lacement.

However, I'm sure that that argume nt could not be extended to its ultimate because it would result in most of the courses being centred in one institution and this is, I'm sure, not what we're trying to do. lt would simply be my hope that the Minister and his advisors in their decisions as to the location of ag ricultural maintenance courses, or mechanics courses, that consideration should be given to continuing with the present theme of using, in a co-operative way, those locations that are now well within the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-43
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 43.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c99abd3e40025b9988efae295b6b48e4ed375ad

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