Manitoba Hansard — 11 May 2009 (Sitting 39, 39th Legislature, 3rd Session)

39-3-39

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXI No. 39 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 11, 2009 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon.

Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1911 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 11, 2009 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS PTH 15 Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. In 2004, the Province of Manitoba made a public commitment to the people of Springfield to twin PTH 15 and the floodway bridge on PTH 15, but then in 2006, the twinning was cancelled. Mr. Speaker, injuries resulting from collisions on PTH 15 continue to rise and have doubled from 2007 to 2008.

In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) stated that preliminary analysis of current and future traffic demands indicate that local twinning will be required. The current plan to replace the floodway bridge on PTH 15 does not include twinning and, therefore, does not fulfil the current or future traffic demands cited by the Minister of Transportation. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate twinning of the PTH 15 floodway bridge for the safety of the citizens of Manitoba.

Signed by Lorraine Boitson, Lora Chapman, Dwight Barkman and many, many other Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Seven Oaks Hospital–Emergency Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The current Premier (M r. Doer) and the NDP government are reducing emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital.

On October 6, 1995, the NDP introduced a matter of urgent public importance that stated that "the ordinary business of the House to be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health-care system posed by this government's plans to limit emergency services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals." On December 6, 1995, when the PC government suggested it was going to reduce emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital, the NDP leader then asked Premier Gary Filmon to "reverse the horrible decisions of his government and his Minister of Health and reopen our community-based emergency wards." The NDP gave Manitobans the impression that they supported Seven Oaks Hospital having full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Premier of Manitoba consider how important it is to have the Seven Oaks Hospital provide full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

This is signed by R. Francisco, J. Legaspi, F. Legaspi and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you. Emergency Medical Services–Rural Manitoba Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The communities of Eddystone, Bacon Ridge and Ebb and Flow First Nation rely on emergency medical services personnel based in Ste. Rose, which is about 45 minutes away. Mr. Speaker, these commu nities represent about 2,500 people.

Other communities of similar size within the region are equipped with at least one ambulance, but this area is not. As a result, residents

1912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 must be transported in private vehicles to the nearest hospital if they cannot wait for emergency personnel to arrive. There are qualified first responders living in these communities who want to serve the region but need an ambulance to do so. A centrally located ambulance and ambulance station in this area would be able to provide better and more responsive emergency services to these communities. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to consider working with the Parkland Regional Health Authority to provide a cen trally located ambulance and station in the area of Eddystone, Bacon Ridge and Ebb and Flow First Nation. This petition is signed by Aaron Beaulieu, Richard Houle, F. Houle and many, many other fine Manitobans. Long-Term Care Facilities–Morden and Winkler Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition.

Many seniors from the Morden and Winkler area are currently patients in Boundary Trails Health Centre while they wait for placement in local personal care homes. There are presently no beds available for these patients in Salem Home and Tabor Home. To make more beds in the hospital available, the regional health authority is planning to move these patients to personal care homes in outlying regions. These patients have lived, worked and raised their families in this area for most of their lives.

They receive care and support from their family and friends who live in the community, and they will lose this support if they are forced to move to distant communities. These seniors and their families should not have to bear the consequences of the provincial government's failure to en sure there are adequate personal care home beds in the region. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to ensure that patients who are awaiting placement in a personal care home are not moved to distant communities.

To urge the Minister of Health to consider working with the RHA and the community to speed construction and expansion of long-term care facilities in the region. This is signed by L. Peters, Christine Krahn, Maryann Giesbrecht and many, many others. Midwifery Services–Interlake Region Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition. Residents of the Interlake Regional Health Authority do not have access to midwifery services.

Midwives provide high quality, cost-effective care to childbearing women throughout their pregnancy, birth and in the post-partum period. Women in the Interlake should have access to midwifery care. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to consider working with the Interlake Regional Health Authority to provide midwifery services to women in this health region. This is signed by Tanya Wereschuk, Kathy Janisch, Aline Rossington and many, many others. Education Funding Mr.

Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Historically, the Province of Manitoba has received funding for educati on by the assessment of property that generates taxes. This unfair tax is only applied to selected property owners in certain areas and confines. Property-based school tax is becoming an ever-increasing burden without acknowledging the owner's income or owner's ability to pay. The provincial sales tax was instituted for the purpose of funding education. However, monies

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1913 generated by this tax are being placed in general revenue. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson) consider removing education funding by school tax or education levies from all property in Manitoba. To request that the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth consider finding a more equitable method of funding education, such as general revenue, following the constitutional funding of education by the Province of Manitoba.

This petition is signed by Anita Moyse, Iris Jamieson, Karen Teague and many, many other fine Manitobans. * (13:40) ORAL QUESTIONS Photo Radar Tickets Construction Zones Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): The government's position on the issue of refunding photo radar fines that were paid by Manitobans, who were travelling under the posted speed limit but posed no threat to public safety, has been evolving over the last week or so from one position to another. They've been flip-flopping on this issue more frequently, Mr. Speaker, than they have on the issue of Manitoba's debt repayments.

I wonder if the Premier can clarify: What is the position of the government today with respect to the refunding of photo radar payments that were made by people travelling under the posted speed limit who posed no threat to the safety of any other Manitoban? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I would note that the Leader of the Opposition, over the weekend, and their Web site, calls on us to repay every one of the 60,000 fines. If you're going 150 miles an hour in a construction zone, go to Hugh McFadyen–no, go to the Leader of the Opposition. I withdraw that statement.

Go to the Leader of the Opposition and get your rebate. The law-and-order party–if you're going 100 miles an hour, get your rebate. Just sign up with the Conservative Web site; that's the position of the Leader of the Opposition. I'm shocked that he's even contemplating taking away photo radar in schools and playgrounds. Sometimes you have to have the courage of your convictions, and we're going to continue to work with the city of Winnipeg police in this regard, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Almost every point made in that response is inaccurate, Mr. Speaker.

If the Premier looks at the request co ming from thousands of Manitobans, the request is that for those travelling at or below the posted speed limit, not those who were travelling–and if they read the petition, it's front page, top of the fold on page 3 of the Free Press. He just needs to read the wording of the petition to know that it's for those travelling under the posted speed limit, who were ticketed, in a situation where their driving posed no threat to the safety of any other Manitoban.

I want to ask the Premier, who has increased the budget revenue projections for fines by 25 percent over two years based on the photo radar scam, if it is, in fact, the case that his Finance Minister had it as part of his budget plans all along, to increase the amount they would take from Manitobans in their budget by 25 percent over two years. Will he not admit that this is really about a government that can't balance its budget, has very little to do with public safety? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, on the financial side, the member opposite would note that there's a $25-million increase in the Justice Department's budget last year, well in exceeding the fine number that the member quotes, and another $25 million this year. The member, when he was chief of staff, they cut the RCMP positions in Manitoba. They cut the Crown prosecutor position. They never implemented, Mr. Speaker, the technology that was recommended. I take great exception, Mr.

Speaker, to the statement made by the Lead er of the Opposition that he would take away the right of the Winnipeg city police to deploy photo radar in playgrounds and schools. I think that's totally irresponsible. And the fact that accidents have gone down in intersections by 62 percent, maybe we'll take a hit politically, but maybe less people will be injured at those intersections, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: The point has got nothing to do with intersections. We support leaving red light

1914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 cameras in place, and we support the impact that they've had on reducing accidents at intersections, Mr. Speaker. What we're referring to is the roving photo radar that has increased the bottom line for the government by 25 percent over two years. That's not an improvement in safety, Mr. Speaker, if, in fact, those revenue numbers track what 's actually happened and things have gotten more dangerous under their watch, not safer.

The reality is that they're budgeting a 25 percent increase in revenue to the government as a result of their photo radar experiment without providing any benefit in terms of public safety. Will the Premier confirm that, at the very least, for those Manitobans, thousands of them, who have paid fines while travelling under the speed limit, who did not endanger members of the public–will they look at doing the right thing and will they refund those funds and not use them in order to present the false image of a phony balanced budget? Mr. Doer: The member opposite, first of all, says all 60,000 have to be refunded.

In fact, that's 1,200 more than what was issued. So th at assumes that he wants to refund every one of the big speeders in Manitoba, point No. 1. Point No. 2, he calls the photo radar system a scam. Well, the former chief of police developed this proposal. He proposed it to the government. It was actually an unfettered photo radar system. I don't believe the city of Winnipeg police, in the implementation of this, is a scam, Mr. Speaker. I'll stand with the Winnipeg city police in terms of the goals of this program. One objective, Mr.

Speaker, was to reduce the number of police officers required to be sta tioned for tra ffic purposes and have more police officers working on crime prevention and crime enforcement. They were the ones that proposed it. We, Mr. Speaker, did not want it to be unfettered. We wanted it to be for construction sites, both the barriers, the safety of the barriers, and the workers that are at the site. This is, again, based on advice from people that are much more expert than a lawyer across the way. It's coming from police. We also wanted it to be at intersections.

There's been a 29 percent decrease in accidents at intersections which were chosen. There's been a 19 percent decrease in injuries at intersections. For the member opposite, he can pander to the politics of this, but to call this a scam, to call the Winnipeg city police, who initiated this program, to be part of a scam, shame on him, Mr. Speaker. Provincial Debt Repayment Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. The government has clearly mismanaged the photo radar issue.

They have mismanaged what's going on in the economy. They have mismanaged agriculture, the impact that their decisions have had on producers, and they're mismanaging the debt-repayment

schedule that five months ago the Premier said he was absolutely committed to, a $110-million payment on Manitoba's debt. Two weeks ago, they dropped that down to $20 million for two years, and then with Bill 30, zero payments on the debt. Over the next three y ears, Mr. Speaker, rather than carrying on with this sort of mismanagement of Manitoba's finances, will the Premier go back and recommit himself to the important principle and the signal of sound financial management and commit himself to a legislated minimum balance of debt repayment for Manitobans? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the person who should go back is the person who says 60,000 unfair tickets needed to be refunded. That means people going 120 miles an hour in a safety construction zone under the Conservatives need to get a refund. That's the law-and-order party. That used to be the law-and-order party. It's now the pandering party of Manitoba. I also believe strongly, Mr. Speaker, that the economy of Manitoba, not perfect; there are challenges going on. We just had a very good discussion about the bioscience and biomedical sectors.

I've had the opportunity of looking at the highest increase in the bioscience and bio-knowledge areas, on a per capita basis, of any province in Canada. We were at a meeting of the aerospace industry on Friday. When you were working on hand back the 120-mile-an-hour speed limit petition, Mr. Speaker, we were going to an aerospace meeting where Standard Aero is increasing and expanding, where Boeing is holding their own in Manitoba; Magellan is holding their own; the Air Canada maintenance

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1915 base is holding their own. In fact, we even have a cold-weather testing station in Manitoba. That's economic growth. We're very proud of that growth, but the credit goes to all Manitobans, the people that are getting up every day, working hard, the companies that are thinking smart. Every day, the credit for this economy and economic growth goes to hardworking Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is right on one point only, and that is that Manitobans are working hard.

They're making their debt payments each and every month and each and every year as responsible people do. Will the Premier commit today to reinstate a minimum payment on Manitoba's debt in legislation as a way of sending a signal that the government is as committed to sound financial management as the people of Manitoba are, the same people who, even when times are tough, make the commitment to repay their debts, or will they continue down the reckless path of building up debt and saddling it onto the next generation, Mr. Speaker? * (13:50) Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, ye s, yes and yes.

We are paying down debt in the operating budget. We're paying down debt on the amortized capital, which wasn't even on the books under the former members– wasn't even on the books. We're paying down the pension liability debt; wasn't on the books, didn't pay a nickel, didn't pay a dime, didn't pay a cent. They stand up here in the House and they feign indignation. They didn't pay a red cent in 11 years in office. Mr. Speaker, we have that debt payment in place, and whoever is premier in 20 years will be very happy that we took action–and it won't be me– to deal with this pension liability.

Again, it's something that might not get you a vote, but it's the right thing to do for the future of Manitobans. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr. Speaker, they're drawing down their pension funds in order to meet current obligations and leaving huge unfunded liabilities within Manitoba's pension plans as we speak. The fund that they have set aside for pensions is being used for current requirements, and they're creating massive unfunded liabilities as we speak.

The last time the NDP governed this province, they left a situation for the last government that resulted in a situation where close to 20 percent of the provincial government had to go toward debt repayment. It was the third largest department of government repaying debt at that time. That was the legacy they left last time. Why are they taking us down a path toward having debt eat into public services, eat into Manitoba incomes and kill jobs for Manitobans, just as they did the last time they were in power, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I would refer the member opposite to Fred Jackson, the Auditor General's report. Of course, they don't like the Auditor General's report because in '97-98 it didn't get a big front page. Their books were not attested to by the Auditor General. You know, a great big note that we don't know what's in these books. In '98-99, same thing. We haven't had that because there was none of this under-the-table stuff. I want to ask the member opposite: How many teachers in 11 years got one nickel of pension liability paid for under a Tory budget?

I want to know: How many jail guards, how many public health nurses, how many highway employees, how many water inspectors, how many people got a cent in 11 years? The answer is in each and every year, not one cent was paid in terms of new employees and current employees for pension liability. That was a train wreck, Mr. Speaker, and we're glad we've started to correct it. Immigration Department Investigation Report Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, in Estimates on Friday, the Minister of Labour and Immigration admitted an investigation had been conducted in the Department of Immigration in 2007 because of allegations of bribery. Will the minister tell this House when she first became aware of this illegal activity in her department? Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Well, Mr. Speaker, I would caution the MLA for Morris in regard to putting that kind of information on the public record about a civil– An Honourable Member: You said it in Estimates. Ms.

Allan: She said in her question, she talked about illegal activity in my department, Mr. Speaker, and I was very, very clear with the MLA for Morris that that was a personnel issue in my department. It had

1916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 been investigated by the Civil Service Commission, and it was not found to be true. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, what the minister said was there's an allegation that an individual in the Immigration branch was approving applications and was receiving financial benefit. Mr. Speaker, an investigation was done. She claims it was unfounded, but let's remember Hydra House when an extensive internal review was done and nothing was found until the Auditor General's report, and that was scandalous.

I would like the minister to table the investigation that was done in Immigration in 2007. Ms. Allan: Well, Mr. Speaker, the investigation was done by the Civil Service Commission. It was arm's length from my department, and the member knows full well–she claims that she's the FIPPA expert in this House, and she should know full well that we cannot make that document public because of the FIPPA legislation. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, we're not asking them to provide a name. We're asking for the report. We're asking for the report, and we know when we get the report, there'll be any names blanked out.

We want to know the extent of the investigation, because we know internal investigations often don't find anything wrong when you're investigating yourself, Mr. Speaker. If she's got nothing to hide, why doesn't she table that report today? Ms. Allan: Well, Mr. Speaker, I know that in Estimates, for quite some time the MLA for Morris spent quite a bit of time trying to find something in my department that was of an unscrupulous nature. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing going on.

We've worked very, very hard in my department, particularly in the Immigration branch, to make sure that everything that happens in that department is accountable and transparent. So, I'm really, really, sorry, I have no further information for the MLA for Morris. Hog Industry Economic Challenges Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): First of all, I want to thank the pork producers for providing us with a wonderful lunch this afternoon. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba pork producers are looking for some leadership from this government right now, as the industry faces some unusual challenges, but their concerns don't seem to be registering. Instead, this NDP government is busy blowing millions of dollars on boondoggles like the west-side power line, like Spirited Energy and the enhanced driver's licence. Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister of Agriculture before and I'll ask again: Where is the plan to help our pork producers weather the economic challenges currently facing them? Hon.

Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Indeed, I was very pleased to be able to invite Manitoba Pork to the legislative grounds to cook the pork, so that people would understand and have confidence that eating pork is safe and H1N1 does not spread through the eating of pork, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that our industry is facing challenging times and has faced challenging times through– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. One question at a time, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One of the biggest challenges our producers have faced is the country-of-origin labelling, which has closed the borders to many of our products, and that's why this government is working very hard to increase slaughter capacity in this province. We know that there are markets right here in Canada that we can be filling. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, a strong agricultural economy is imperative to the long-term economic growth of this province. It creates thousands of direct and indirect jobs, contributes billions of dollars annually to the provincial economy.

But instead of looking for ways to promote the growth in the agriculture sector, this government's priorities are sorely misdirected. The government is content to waste millions of dollars on a west-side power line, pay for an advertising campaign that was a huge flip-flop and promote the enhanced driver's licence program, drawing few takers. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture admit that she has no short-term or long-term strategy in order to help Manitoba pork producers weather these recent challenges?

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1917 Ms. Wowchuk: I wonder whether the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. McFadyen) talks to the members of his caucus. The Leader of the Opposition was just telling us that we should use more money to pay down debt, that we shouldn't worry about programming, and now my Agriculture critic is saying, take money and put it into the pork industry. Mr. Speaker, I wish they would talk. One says, pay down more debt; the other one says, put more money into the industry. Why don't they talk, Mr.

Speaker, because I can assure you that we have been talking to the pork industry and we are working with the industry? * (14:00) Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, this is a minister that's spending millions and millions of dollars on a west-side line that would pay down their debt, give money to invest in the industry and get ten-fold for their investments. Shame on them. You would think by now the government would recognize that working with the agriculture sector would be helping to ensure that billions of dollars worth of annual export sales are maintained along with thousands of direct and indirect Manitoba jobs.

We are deeply committed to outlasting these challenges which are comi ng stronger and stronger each and every day. How disappointing it must be for them to see the government focussing on misdirected priorities and wasting millions of dollars on different programs, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister of Agriculture do the right thing, meet with the pork producers, work out a short-term project and long-term strategies that will help these current producers get through this storm? Ms. Wowchuk: You know, Mr. Speaker, it's interesting that the member opposite talks about that hydro line that he calls useless.

He fails to mention that the sale of hydro is $20 billion. That helps us. The member opposite also fails to mention that when they were in government we had a differential rate. Rural Manitobans paid more for their hydro than city people. What did the members opposite do on that? They did nothing. We equalized that rate so that there would be a better program for all Manitobans. We will continue to develop hydro, and we will continue to export, and, yes, Mr. Speaker, I have met with the pork producers, and I will meet with the pork producers.

We will continue to work with them, but we will not privatize our corporations like they did with Manitoba Telephone that drove up the costs for all Manitobans. Agriculture Department Hiring Policies Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, Mr. Speaker, we've learned that the Minister of Agriculture has hired her old friend and former NDP Saskatchewan agriculture minister, Clay Serby, to give her advice on how to better run her department. What kind of a signal does it send to her departmental staff that she doesn't think they're qualified to give her advice on rural development? Mr.

Speaker, did the minister not know anyone in Manitoba with the expertise to advise her on how to improve agriculture in Manitoba, rather than paying her old friend, the former NDP Saskatchewan agriculture minister? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, economic development is really important in rural Manitoba. My department has the responsibility of dealing with regional development corporations, with economic development groups, as well as the staff that I have in my department.

The Manitoba municipalities came to us with a report where they said that we had to make improvements on how we deliver services in rural Manitoba when it comes to economic development. That's why I decided that we would bring someone in to talk to all of the people that are involved in economic development in rural Manitoba so that they could share their ideas on how we might improve it. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, for $23,975–and that's the value of this untendered contract given by the minister to her old friend, Mr.

Serby–I know there are many Manitobans who could have given her advice on how to do her job better. The Manitoba Connects report states, and I quote: There is much perceived duplication and overlap of services, and there is much confusion among the client base and grass-roots staff about where to go and who does what. Farmers already know this, Mr. Speaker. After 10 years as Agriculture Mini ster, is this her legacy, confusion, no direction, no results?

1918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 Does the minister think it's appropriate to make such an untendered contract at a time when her government is running a deficit? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member opposite knows that the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Briese), now, was appointed to the Municipal Board in May 2006, before he was elected. Clayton Manness worked on the fair tax commission. Mr. Speaker, we all look for advice, and we look where we can get advice on helping us to make change.

I can say to the member opposite, the people that are involved in delivering economic development, whether it be regional development corporations, economic development people, or AMM people, all said that it was a good idea to bring someone in so that they would have a chance to talk to them and look at how we might deliver services better in rural Manitoba. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Ste. Rose and Mr. Manness were excellent people that she could have gotten free advice from instead of hiring someone from Sa skatchewan, her former colleague. Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Connects report also states, we've been told by stakeholders–maybe she didn't listen to this–that what is required is not more studies, but to move forward. No results are what you get from a minister offering no direction. It's just like the failed Spirited Energy campaign. In January 2001, this Minister of Rural Initiatives developed a 2010 vision for program delivery in her department. Did it fail, Mr. Speaker? Is that why she had to pay $23,975 for an untendered contract to her old Saskatchewan NDP friend at a time when her government is running deficits? Mr.

Speaker, while her government wastes millions on projects like– Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: M r . S p e a k e r , i f y o u l i s t e n t o t h e questions that the members have asked in the past days, they say everything about Saskatchewan is good, everything about Saskatchewan is good, and then when there's someone else that's brought in– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's have some decorum. The honourable minister has the floor. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think that it's very important that we be able to look at what kinds of services we deliver and that we are able to seek outside advice. I won't operate in a silo like the members opposite who think that they know that everything is perfect as they see it. Mr. Speaker, it's quite okay to look at outsiders to give us advice. I remember the opposition brought in Connie Curran. Connie Curran wasn't a Manitoban, but they brought her in. I can tell you that the disaster that they created to that is one that Manitobans will not forget. Potato Industry Impact of Country-of-Origin Labelling Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): Can the Minister of Agriculture update this House on the impact COOL, or country-of-origin labelling, is having on the potato industry in this province? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, the issues of county-of-origin labelling are affecting all sectors and can affect all sectors. That's why we had worked very closely, that's why we hired legal advice and support in the United States. That's why we have lobbied the U.S. government that we need to keep those doors open, those trade doors open. The major hit right now, Mr.

Speaker, is in the livestock sector because of the labelling that is required, but there can be other consequences, and that's why we continue to work with the minister responsible in the United States to ensure that a rule that is put in place is a fair rule that will allow trade to continue. Mr. Dyck: Well, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the minister really doesn't know. The potato industry is a multimillion dollar industry in this province and puts millions of dollars back in the economy. COOL has given buyers in the U.S. the option to go back or default on some of their contracts.

Will the minister commit to work with the industry to try and resolve some of these issues? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, just as there is the possibility for people to break their contracts in the pork industry, there is that possibility in other exporting. That's a very important market for us, and that's why we have to continue to look and enhance our processing abilities here in this province, whether it is further processing of potatoes that are

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1919 clearly labelled, whether it is further processing of our pork and beef that are clearly labelled. I think we can sell the Canadian label anywhere, but it is confusion that is being created by sending in a raw product that then needs a dual label. This is a very serious issue and one that can affect our industry dramatically. That's why we will continue to work with the federal government and we will continue to work– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Dyck: Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the confusion is between this minister and the U.S.

Seeing that COOL is a shared responsibility with the federal government, will the minister commit to working with the federal government to try and resolve some of these irritants? It's a combined effort. Now the minister has done nothing in order to try and facilitate this. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm happy that the member opposite finally realizes we have to deal nation to nation on this issue. That's why, for months, I have been talking to the federal minister and asking him to continue to lobby. That's why the federal minister has indicated that there will be a challenge on COOL.

But the member opposite also has to recognize that there is a role for the Province to play, and we are playing that role. Whether it is not in the direct negotiations, it's important that we meet with our counterparts and that they understand how we conduct agriculture in this province and how they conduct it, and that their processors and producers will suffer if– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:10) Hog Industry Economic Challenges Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I'm glad to see the Minister of Agriculture followed our Liberal lead and initiated a pork barbeque at the Legislature this morning.

Thank you to the pork producers and to the Minister of Agriculture for that, but the industry needs a full plan from this government. I take you to Harry Siemens, for example, in his current commentary he says that the industry is on the brink of disaster. Yet the minister has done very little. Indeed, Mr. Siemens quotes a Manitoba producer as saying to the Minister of Agriculture, you haven't helped us in any way, shape or form– from a producer. Last week I asked the government to provide a plan for the industry. Saskatchewan has a plan. Québec has a plan. Where is the Manitoba plan? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, you know, the member opposite makes a statement about the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk). The Minister of Agriculture is the one that put some $25 million into further food processing in the hog industry last year, money into Neepawa, and I would point out the member opposite wasn't exactly doing the "Hallelujah" chorus for hog processing here in Manitoba. The federal-provincial programs that are in place, most of the money forwarded by the provincial government was well over $45 million last year, and the year before it was all in the livestock industry.

We actually went over our budget because of the need in the livestock industry. We've been working hard on country-of-origin legislation, so the member– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, you know, it's a rather odd paradox at the moment that even while the hog industry in Manitoba is in big difficulty, there are lots of Manitoba retailers who are still insisting on bringing in pork from the United States. Some suspect that the minister is not doing anywhere near an adequate job of promoting to Manitobans the purchase of our wonderful Manitoba pork.

Indeed, I think, across Canada, I hear that it may soon be that Canada may become the No. 2 purchaser of U.S. pork. What's going on? Can the minister tell us how much of the pork consumed in Manitoba is from the United States, and can the minister tell us why she's not doing more to make sure Manitobans know that it's great to have Manitoba pork– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I'm surprised that the member opposite is talking about protectionism. He wants to start protecting our borders to keep our sales here in Canada. Mr.

Speaker, we export millions of dollars of products around the world. The pork industry was very concerned, as I was, when we see

1920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 countries like Japan and China and others closing their borders to our products. We can't, on one hand, say we want more product sold in Manitoba and in Canada of Canadian product and then complain when somebody closes a border on us, Mr. Speaker. So the member knows not what he talks about. The other day, he asked me if I could guarantee the pork industry wouldn't have any diseases. I wonder when he was a practising doctor if– Mr. Speaker: Order. Red Light Cameras Accident Statistics Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, photo radar and red light cameras were supposed to be all about making our streets that much safer. In fact, more and more Manitobans are seeing it more as a cash grab than a safety issue. In fact, today in question period the Premier (Mr. Doer) indicated that the percentage of accidents in intersections has been decreased by 62 percent. My understanding is that the overall accidents in red light camera intersections has actually gone up. I'm wondering if the Premier can clarify whether or not the overall number of accidents in intersections has gone up since the installation of red light cameras. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I might take it, therefore, and I want to hear from the Liberal Party now, are they against or for photo radar cameras? Which is the Liberal position? We have been advised by the city of Winnipeg police that accidents are down. The member opposite has also advised us that we do not need to hire any more police, that we have enough in the city of Winnipeg.

I daresay that we're far better off having photo radar at construction sites, school playgrounds and at intersections with red lights and green lights that allow the police to do their jobs on the more serious offences. That makes more sense than the members opposite– Mr. Speaker: Order. Provincial Parks Government Initiatives Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, with summer on its way and the long weekend just around the corner, I find myself, like many other Manitobans, dusting off the camping gear and looking forward to spending some time this summer out in the great outdoors with my family.

I was just wondering: Can the Minister of Conservation please inform the House of the exciting initiatives that will both encourage Manitobans to explore more of our incred ible province, as well as provide continued service through campground upgrades and facility enhancements under this year's Provincial Camping Initiative? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Whether the Tories like it or not, we waived park entrance fees this year for the next two years.

Whether the Tories like it or not, we removed commercial logging out of provincial parks, eight of 81 provincial parks, whether the Tories liked it or not. Whether the Tories like it or not, we launched a Provincial Camping Initiative that will see 12 new yurts at Camp Morton and Stephenfield provincial parks. Whether the Tories like it or not, we're building more shower faci lities in places like Birds Hill, Grand Beach, Childs Lake, Wellman Lake. Whether the Tories like it or not, Mr. Speaker, a new water system will be built out at Watchorn and new showers at Nutimik Lake, making those kinds of improvements.

Mr. Speaker, 65 new campsites at Wellman and 35 new campsites at Hnausa– Mr. Speaker: Order. Cattle Industry Information on Anaplasmosis Disease Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, anaplasmosis has been identified in some cattle herds in eastern Manitoba. Prod ucers are interested in learning more about the disease and how it might be spread. Can the Minister of Agriculture provide an update on how many Manitoba herds are affected and how many cattle are represented? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, the member is accurate; antiplasmosis was diagnosed in eastern Manitoba in a herd in October 2009. Positive

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1921 tested animals were slaughtered. Several contact herds, trace-ins and trace-out herds, have been placed under quarantine. I want to also tell the member that there was an information meeting in Lac du Bonnet on April 22, and some 50 producers attended that meeting to talk about the issue and to talk about how we would deal with this further. But I want the member also to know that there are no trade restrictions that have been placed on Canada or Manitoba as a result of this disease. Mr. Graydon: Mr.

Speaker, anaplasmosis is a reportable disease under the federal Health of Animals Act. Information is very valuable to producers who might be impacted. Is the minister prepared to arrange a briefing, along with officials of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, to answer questions such as, what is the source of the Manitoba cases and how are the infected animals being disposed of? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, again, I would encourage the members oppos ite to talk to each other, because my critic, the Member for Lakeside (Mr.

Eichler), has asked for a briefing on antiplasmosis, and when that meeting is set up–and I believe the date has been set–then, certainly, I would encourage the member opposite to come along. If there are others that are interested, we could do a briefing, and I believe the meeting has been set up. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that anaplasmosis can be sp read by ticks that bite infected animals. Producers have questions about whether these ticks might also infect wildlife like deer that sometimes interact with cattle herds. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister tell the House which species of wildlife can be infected with anaplasmosis, whether this poses a transmission risk for cattle, and are there any control measures to deal with this situation going forward? Ms. Wowchuk: Indeed, the member is accurate when he says the disease is spread by ticks. It can also be spread by biting flie s. It can also be spread from contaminated needles. It is a reportable disease and it does occur very rarely in this country, and that's why when it does occur, Mr. Speaker, we have to take the steps that we have taken.

That's why there was a public meeting held for the producers to give them the kind of information that the member opposite is asking for. If there is a need for fu rther information, as the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler) has suggested, we will do a briefing, and I would invite the member opposite to attend as well. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. * (14:20) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Grace Hospital Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House of a ceremony that took place at the Grace Hospital this Mother's Day.

The Celebrate the Legacy service acknowledged the 119-year history of the Salvation Army in Winnipeg and marked the transition of the Salvation Army Grace Hospital to the new Grace Hospital as part of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. The Grace Hospital has been a vital part of the history of west Winnipeg since its founding as the first Grace Hospital in Canada in 1904, and it has been the heart of the larger St. James-Assiniboia neighbourhood since its relocation to the current location in 1967.

Now, as the Salvation Army completes its transition out of health-care provision, it is also the last Grace Hospital. Like so many others in my area, my life and that of my family, has been intertwined with the Grace. We have gone to the Grace in times of joy and in times of crisis. We have given birth to our children there and held the hand of a dying grandparent as they passed on in the arms of the Grace. As we each recounted our stories about our life and the Grace, it was easy to see that the Grace has always been more than just a hospital. She is our Grace, our beloved Grace.

It was fitting that the celebration of this legacy of Grace Hospital was celebrated on Mother's Day, as the work of the Salvation Army and the origins of the Grace Hospital began with childbirth and maternal care but, more importantly, because the Grace has always been like a mother to us. This legacy of caring is a result of the philosophy of the Salvation Army and in the dedication and compassion of the staff and volunteers that have worked at the Grace over the past century. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the Salvation Army, especially Major Susan van Durien, divisional commander; Commissioner William Francis, territorial commander; and Commissioner Marilyn

1922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 Francis, territorial president of Women's Organizations, for sharing with us this celebration of the Grace and her legacy and for entrusting the ongoing legacy of the Grace to the WRHA, under the guidance of Vice-President Réal Cloutier. I would also like to thank the Honourable Pearl McGonigal for her work with the commi ssioners to ensure that the Grace Hospital reta ined her name, further preserving her legacy in spirit.

Like so many others, I look forward to the next century in the life of the Grace Hospital and the continuation of the spirit of caring that it has always embodied. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. National Nursing Week Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I'm pleased to rise in the House today to recognize the celebration of Nursing Week in Manitoba. This year's theme is "Nursing: You Can't Live Without It." Nursing Week is an opportunity to celebrate a profession that makes innumerable contributions to our health-care system and to the lives of Manitobans on a daily basis.

Safe patient care depends on our nurses, who are the backbone of our health-care work force. Unfortunately, under the NDP government, Manitoba is short 1,300 nurses, which has led to the increased use of overtime, mandatory overtime, something the Premier (Mr. Doer) called dangerous during the 1999 election campaign. It's also resulted in a sharp increase in the number of heavy workload forms, which nurses submit when their workload becomes so high that it's potentially unsafe. Nurses work in alread y stressful environments.

A chronic nursing shortage makes their job even harder, and we commend them for the work they are doing under these difficult circumstances. This year's Nursing Week theme reminds us all that our nurses are an integral part of the health-care system and of our society as a whole. It also challenges us to re-evaluate our perceptions of the nursing profession so that we might be able to recognize more easily the very nature of the work that nurses do. Nurses are active in many different venues, from hospital and personal care homes, to schools and communities.

Nurses even have a strong presence in Canada's military and are a critical component of our armed forces. Mr. Speaker, as someone who has spent many years in this profession, I would like to say a huge thank you to all our nurses here in Manitoba. Thank you for your diligence while we experience a critical shortage of nurses. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to our health-care system, and thank you for your continued dedication to your patients. I ask that the members of the House join with me in acknowledging the integral work and role that nurses play in Manitoba. Thank you.

Guyanese Association of Manitoba Production Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to share with this House an event I attended on February 28 at the Indo-Canadian Arts and Cultural Centre of Winnipeg. The Guyanese Association's presentation of Tales from the Ramayana was a wonderful evening of theatre, food and dance. The full Ramayana is an ancient Sanskrit epic by the great Indian poet, Valmiki and dates from 500 B.C.E. to 100 B.C.E.. It tells the story of Prince Rama and his quest to become king.

The tale explores the themes of human existence and dharma and has been a source of spiritual, cultural and artistic inspiration for centuries. The Ramayana is an epic that has had a decisive influence in the shaping of Indian civilization. The story is exceedingly well-known throughout India and has spread to become a part of the tradition of countries throughout southeast Asia. The night began a with a dinner and a welcome from the production organizers. Tara Chitra Dabee then performed a few vers es from the Ramayana in tribute to the poet, Valmiki.

This was followed by a Ram Leela dance and, finally, the storytellers took to the stage. The storytellers chose to perform the portion of the great poem wherein Rama is about to be crowned king when he is thrust into exile with his beloved wife, Sita, and brother Lakshman. The evening was a big success raising $4,200 for the Three Rivers Kids Foundation dedicated to helping sick children in Guyana.

I would like to thank the volunteers and supporters of the production, including Derek Dabee, Mary Louise Chown and Laura Cowie; and the storytellers, Jamie Oliviero, Laura Cowie, Tom Roche, George Berman and Nigel Baseley.

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1923 Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg's Indian community is full of talented people. We are so lucky to live in a city where beautiful displays of art and culture are at our fingertips. I would encourage all members of this House to take advantage of all th e wonderful events the Indo-Canadian Arts and Cultural centre and the Guyanese Association have to offer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hog Industry–Economic Challenges Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I rise today to speak about Manitoba's pork industry.

Today, many of us in this House had the pleasure of attending the pork barbecue on the Legislative grounds. We were served a high-quality, tasty pork product–ones that are a favourite on dinner plates around the globe. We are grateful to have received this lunch and participate in an event designed to raise awareness of our pork industry. This valuable sector creates about 15,000 direct and indirect jobs and contributes almost approximately $1 billion annually to the provincial economy. However, this valuable industry has faced some challenges of late.

Low commodity prices, the high impact of the Canadian dollar, high input costs, country-of-origin labelling, Bill 17, and now the H1N1 situation have created challenges for Manitoba's highly dedicated pork producers. As I pointed out in my questions earlier, Mr. Speaker, all these circumstances have dealt a devastating blow to the pork industry. Pork producers need a helping hand right now–more than ever–if they're going to survive this latest challenge. Many have put in their lifesavings to stay afloat as they try to combat the challenges over which they have no control.

We, on this side of the House, have repeatedly called on the government to do the right thing and to put in place a plan to help the industry move through these challenges. Our producers have been struggling. The business risk management programs and cash advances help to a degree, but, unfortunately, they may not be enough to save a number of our producers. As I stated before–sim ply just place Bipole III on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. The money saved could go towards investing in programs to help our pork industry which would save us a ten-fold return on our investment.

We know when we have a strong agriculture sector our economy grows and creates the wealth that we need in this province. Help us pay down our debt, invest in our province and make us all proud of our pork industry. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Cecil Rhodes School 100th Anniversary Ms. Flor Marcelino (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I am so delighted to stand here today and to share my wonderful experience at the 100th anniversary celebrations of Cecil Rhodes School located in the constituency of Wellington. I am proudly wearing the CRS pin, a memento of this milestone celebration–one which brought me great joy and pride.

The celebration started last Friday evening with a wine and cheese reception at the original school building on Cecil Street. The next day, at the open house, I had the honour of bringing greetings on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson) to a gym packed with former graduates, their families, friends and school staff. A dinner and dance that evening culminated in this centennial celebration with over 600 people in attendance. * (14:30) It was an overwhelming experience to view the memorabilia and displays at the ceremonies.

Upon entering the school, I was greeted by autographs of alumni from 1909 to 1929 who attended the 75th anniversary celebration in 1984. The next display of signed autographs was of former students from 1930 to 1970. After signing their name, many had added their present addresses. While some indicated out-of-country addresses, many of them still reside in Canada. A good number of former students still live in the Weston–Brooklands area. I have the privilege of meeting some of them in my work as their representative in the Legislature, like Les Slingsby who was in grade 10 in 1939.

Les is one of the founding members of the Keewatin/Inkster Neighbourhood Resource Council and is currently the president of the Weston Seniors Club as well as a committed member of the Brooklands Pioneer Senior Citizens Club.

1924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 At the opening ceremony, the Cecil Rhodes School Choir under Ms. Donna Mauthe sang the song "You Raise Me Up," which said it all about Cecil Rhodes School and how past and present staff have served the community and made a difference in the lives of its students. It brought me tears of joy to hear the beautiful melody and lyrics of this song.

The school staff headed by principal Marcey Dveris and the 100th anniversary committee composed of former alumni chaired by Donna Fidelak and the students of this school did a fantastic job of putting on the magnificent celebration for the 100th anniversary of Cecil Rhodes School, one of the most precious gems found in my constituency. I want to thank them all for the efforts. Thank you Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, in terms of government business, it is the intention to complete Estimates today with sittings in the Chamber, rooms 255 and 254.

Following Estimates, we'd like to turn the attention of the House to debate on second reading in the following order: Bill 30, The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2009; Bill 8, The Civil Service Superannuation Amendment Act (Enhanced Manitoba Hydro Employee Benefits and Other Amendments); Bill 9, The Social Work Profession Act; Bill 12, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act; Bill 14, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Payday Loans); Bill 19, The Mortgage Dealers Amendment and Securities Amendment Act; Bill 22, The Cooperatives Amendment Act; Bill 16, The Police Services Act; Bill 11, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act; Bill 15, The Victims' Bill of Rights Amendment Act; Bill 27, The Gaming Control Amendment Act; Bill 28, The Private Investigators and Security Guards Amendment Act; Bill 21, The Labour Mobility Act; Bill 25, The Statistics Amendment Act; Bill 26, The Apprenticeship and Certification Act; Bill 13, The Medical Amendment Act; Bill 18, The Regulated Health Professions Act; Bill 17, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act; Bill 23, The Buildings and Mobile Homes Amendment Act; Bill 20, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Electricity Reliability); Bill 24, The Colleges Amendment Act and Le Collège Universitaire de Saint-Boniface Amendment Act (College Degrees); Bill 29, The Environment Amendment Act; Bill 31, The Manitoba Floodway Authority Amendment Act; and Bill 32, The Centre culturel franco-manitobain Act.

And if we're not finished, Mr. Speaker, I'll return with other business today. Mr. Speaker: The order of orders of the day, the order of business will be, we will do Committee of Supply; we have one hour and 34 minutes remaining. Once that is completed, then we will do second reading in this order: Bills 30, 8, 9, 12, 14, 19, 22, 16, 11, 15, 27, 28, 21, 25, 26, 13, 18, 17, 23, 20, 24, 29, 31 and 32. If we complete that, then the Government House Leader will give us further instructions. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on House business? Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): Yes, on House business, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if you might repeat that order again. I didn't get all of it. Mr. Speaker: Okay. I'll repeat it. Second reading will be 30, 8, 9, 12, 14, 19, 22, 16, 11, 15, 27, 28, 21, 25, 26, 13, 18, 17, 23, 20, 24, 29, 31 and 32; and, if we complete that, then the House leader will give us further instructions on what order of business we will undertake. So right now we will resolve into Committee of Supply. Will the Chairs please go to their respective rooms. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on House business?

Mr. Hawranik: Yes, on House business, again, Mr. Speaker. Considering that we may be into concurrence tomorrow, I'd like to table the list of ministers to be called for concurrence for tomorrow, May 12, being the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald), who will be questioned concurrently. Mr. Speaker: If we are in concurrence tomorrow, the ministers that are requested to appear will be the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Agriculture and Food, and the Minister of Health concurrently.

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1925 Orders of the day. We will now resolve into Committee of Supply with one hour and 34 minutes remaining. In the Chamber will be Civil Service Commission; Room 255 will be Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat; and Room 254 will be Family Services and Housing. Would the appropriate Chairs go to the rooms that they will be chairing, please. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Family Services and Housing. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): To the minister. The minister has got a partial implementation of Jordan's Principle with the federal government through an agreement. One of the measures of how successful that would be, would be the number of cases which are falling under that and the number of communities which are now covered.

So could the minister te ll us how many cases are now falling under this new federal-provincial agreement and how many communities would be represented? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I suspect the federal government would disagree with the member. I believe it was their position that Jordan's Principle was about medically complex needs of children based on the experience of Jordan himself.

It is our view that the interim arrangement and the conclusion of dispute resolution process, which, I understand, is well under way, I understand the working group has been meeting and is near finalization of that mechanism, but it is our view that this is a first step to what we see as the basis for discussion for a larger mandate or scope of Jordan's Principle. But at least we are now the first province in Canada to have the agreement of the federal government to recognize the principle at least as it applies to medically complex needs of children.

The answer to the question in terms of the number of cases, we'll make inquiries. Kerri Irvin-Ross is the lead minister on Jordan's Principle– Madam Chairperson: Order. Just to remind the member that we do recognize members by their constituency. Mr. Mackintosh: Oh. The Minister for Healthy Living (Ms. Irvin-Ross) is the lead on this, particularly, recognizing that with the principle being pursued with medically co mplex needs of children, there's disproportionately an interest by the health-care system in the application of the principle.

So we'll determine whether, with the interim agreement, if there have been any cases in dispute. It is only for cases where there was not dispute that the interim arrangement would apply. I can also assure the member that, in the case of Norway House, I understand the federal government has come to the table there. We were certainly at the table, as well, but it's my understanding that there was an assessment of the children in question and there has been an arrangement determined. Mr.

Gerrard: Can the minister provide information as to whether there are now children being covered in other communities as of today? Mr. Mackintosh: I don't think it would be fair to characterize Jordan's Principl e as applicable only to Norway House children at all. Norway House was a unique circumstance that developed because, some time ago, the First Nation put in place a pilot program. The Province wasn't a party to that and, I don't think, was involved in any way, actually, in the development of that initiative. So that's an initiative that is unique out there to my understanding.

Jordan's Principle is a principle th at should apply to the provision of medically complex medical services in respect of children that do have medically complex needs. Mr. Gerrard: That was exactly my point, that my understanding is it covers all children, so I'm asking, as of today, how many children in other communities and how many other communities are there children being covered under this agreement? Mr. Mackintosh: First, with regard to Norway House, we understand there are about 30 children there the federal government has now agreed to support for services in that community. In no small

1926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009

part I think the Province was involved, or the Province's role, I think, was instrumental in helping to move this along. In terms of the application of Jordan's Principle generally, because it's not community specific whatsoever, the case managers that would deal with questions about who's responsible for the payment of those medical services are tasked with resolving that matter.

If there have been any circumstances where that has not been resolved, we can advise the member because we recognize there will likely be cases where the matter is not easily resolved, in which case we do need a dispute resolution mechanism. Otherwise, it's simply an offloading onto the provincial government. I think that would be the outcome. In the case of Jordan, it was the payment of medical services, so if there are any that have not been resolved, we'll let the member know.

It may be that the development of the principle, the recognition for medically complex needs of children has spurred case managers to indeed resolve this matter at the first instance. Mr. Gerrard: I look forward to receiving that information. * (14:50) Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Just as we were ending the day on Friday, there was an issue we were discussing that appeared to have the southern authority taking the lead responsibility for responding to the Gage Guimond report and recommendations. I know the minister didn't have a chance to respond. Maybe he could respond now. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, two things. First of all, it should be noted that the–I just looked at those remarks in the Hansard. The Ombudsman has been given, by authority of legislation a role to review

section 10s, not

section 4s, but

section 10s, now called special investigation reports or reviews, so that is in the legislation. So I wanted to clarify that for the record. In terms of the

section 4 review of Sagkeeng Child and Family, the southern authority ordered that review. It was done by the persons that we noted last time, and the Province has agreed that it would be important to include in the southern authority's report on the status of implementation of the recommendations a piece from the Province. So we'll be passing on the Province's review on the status of recommendations as they affect system-wide or issues that are within the jurisdiction of the branch. There were, I understand, 144 recommendations.

A majority of those were directed at the agency, but some were directed at the authority and some were directed at the department or system-wide issues. So we've agreed to be a part of that. We'll be sending in the overview from the department. That's been completed. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, the last time I looked it was the Minister and the Ministry of Family Services that were responsible for the delivery of Child and Family Services and child protection in the province of Manitoba.

So, when the minister says he's going to be handing over the department's responses to the southern authority so they can develop or draft a report, it is ludicrous. This was the death of a child in care under this minister's watch, and he is now saying that the southern authority has the lead for responding and for holding the department accountable. Again, the last time I looked, it was the minister that was supposed to hold everyone within the system accountable.

So I have difficulty understanding when the first 47 recommendations in the report refer to either systemic problems across the authorities and across th e agencies or specific direction to the department, the minister's department, the branch of Child Protection. So the minister is now, in essence, shirking his responsibility, trying to hide behind the southern authority when, in fact, he has the obligation to stand up and be accountable for every child within the system.

When responsibility is delegated to one of the authorities under his watch, I have extreme difficulty with understanding how the minister can sit here and say he's going to feed, or his department will look at feeding information into the report that the southern authority is going to be releasing. Will the minister today try to explain to us how that can wash with Manitobans who believe that he has ultimate responsibility under legislation for the protection of children? Mr.

Mackintosh: The legislation is what sets out the accountability mechanisms and the responsibilities of agencies' authorities in th e branch. When it comes to

section 4s specifically, the act sets out both a role for calling a

section 4, either on the part of an authority or the branch, and, in th is case, the authority took that leadership role, which was agreed to by the branch. It's very important, in our view, that the authorities that are directly accountable for the

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1927 actions of agencies do take that role seriously, and we're seeing that happen across the system, whether it's

section 4s, whether it's operational reviews or quality assurance reviews. So, in this case, the authority went further than we had seen historically and said not only would they be making the recommendations but they would report publicly for greater accountability on how those recommendations are being implemented. The department agreed that it would, as well, contribute then to enhance accountability to the response on recommendations that were made, that were system- wide or department-based. So we really see, I think, a growth in the recognition of authority responsibilities.

I think that this should be celebrated when we have an authority that has made an effort to report publicly on the actions of the agency and the authority. To make it one document we're going to be putting in the actions that have been taken system-wide as well. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, I just cannot believe the minister's answer. I mean, again, The Child and Family Services Act is

an act of the Legislature introduced by the minister and brought in, and, ultimately, he has responsibility and accountability. Yes, we do believe that agencies should be accountable for the children that they serve and authorities should be accountable for those agencies that they oversee, but it ultimately is the minister and his department that should be overseeing the legislation that he brought in and that this Legislature passed. It wasn't the southern authority that brought the legislation in.

It isn't the southern authority that has responsibility for holding all other authorities accountable, which appears to be the kind of answer that the minister's given me today and, yes, we do want to see that accountability. But we don't want to see the minister try to deflect his responsibilities for his accountability for every child in the province of Manitoba, and that appears to be what he's doing today. Now the recommendations in this report–and there are several recommendations in this report that refer to the branch and what the branch should do and what the branch must do.

Again, I ask the minister: Why on earth would he be reporting to the southern authority what action the branch has taken? He should be reporting to the Legislature directly, and it should be his department's report that is being tabled. It shouldn't be the southern authority, and I'd like him to try to explain to me why now the southern authority has control over the department and control over every other authority in the province of Manitoba. What gives them that power and that authority? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the member is ignoring the legislative scheme that's in place.

Authorities are not accountable for actions of the branch. The minister is, of course, where the buck stops, and the minister, pursuant to the legislation, is accountable and I'm accountabl e as the minister for branch actions. That is the law and that's the reality, both politically and in law. But as the member says, the one thing I agree with, the authority, indeed, should be accountable for the actions of agencies. I would say they also are accountable for their own actions, to a certain extent, although they're accountable to the branch for that.

That doesn't diminish the branch's or the minister's accountability role whatsoever. So the information is not being provided to the authority because it is requiring it or because there's accountability there. I think the member is mixing up the provision of information from the department to the authority so that it can be made public, but the accountability is the other way; the authorities are accountable to the branch. That's the law and nothing changes.

It's very important, th ough, that we think that there should be an accounting, publicly, for action on all the recommendations and that's what's being accomplished here. So the department will have a

section in that report that enhances, I think, accountability to the public and does nothing in terms of the relationship, it does nothing to detract from the accountability of authorities to the minister. * (15:00) Mrs. Mitchelson: But again, Madam Chair–and I'm not going to belabour this much longer–it seems unbelievable that the department would have a piece in a report that the authority is putting out. Ultimately, every authority should be accountable through a report that the branch puts out.

So I'm not going to belabour it anymore, but I just think that with the whole process that has been set up, it's a government and a minister and the department that's trying to deflect responsibility away from themselves to the authorities, and have

1928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 the authorities try to account an answer for issues that are systemic, that are province-wide. We all know that there are lots of issues in the Child and Family Services system. It's never been a perfect system and it never will be. But, when you've got a minister and a department who have used legislation to deflect accountability away from themselves, then we have significant issues. So I'm just going to go, possibly, recommendation by recommendation in the Gage Guimond report.

There's one, specifically, that I have used, and the minister will know that I have used it in correspondence to him, and that is recommendation 47 in the Gage Guimond report. I would think that this is a critical recommendation that speaks to good child welfare practice and good child welfare decisions.

That recommendation states, and I'll quote: that any decision to move a child when there are no protection concerns contain a written reason for this decision including reference to the impact on the child, the appropriateness of the move in accordance with the child's stage of development, and the degree of attachment to the caregiver. Now, ultimately, that recommendation makes a lot of common sense, good sense, and it should be just good child-welfare practice.

We all know, in the case of Gage Guimond, that nothing was put in writing that indicated that it was in the best interests of the child to be moved out of the foster home that had cared for him, and into several different unhealthy homes and circumstances. To me, ultimately, this makes good sense. Now, this doesn't just relate to the Gage Guimond case, and this wasn't just a specific one-time incident within the system.

I'm hearing from foster families right throughout the province of Manitoba that are being left out in the cold, not included and not given anything in writing from agencies that would indicate that it's in the best interests of the children to take them out of a long-term foster placement without any preparation and move them into unfamiliar circumstances and, many, many times, agai nst the wishes of the children.

Children, whether the minister believes it or not, should have an opportunity and an ability to have their voices heard when it comes to major decisions around their lives and their future, and their well-being and their safety, and their happiness. So I'm asking the minister–and I'm going to go through a few recommendations, but I'm asking the minister specifically on recommendation 47: What has been done. Does he agree with this recommendation? Because he's indicated, publicly, that he's accepting all of the recommendations.

Does he agree with this recommendation, and what has he done to implement this recommendation? Mr. Mackintosh: Staff are advising they don't have the recommendation-by-recommendation breakdown from the Sagkeeng review in respect of the death of Gage Guimond. What I'm advised in terms of the specific recommendation, the–and so if there's more information that's available, I'll give it to the member. In terms of the specific recommendation that the member raises, when there are decisions to move, it was recommended then that there be written reasons considering a number of factors.

That was a recommendation that was accepted by the department. It is one where work has gone into the development of its implementation with a view to getting this into protocols for the fall. The challenge here is that this is going to significantly, of course, change practice on the front lines, that there is now a new consideration that front-line social workers have to–and a new task that they have to complete.

One of the challenges in getting any protocols concluded, I'm advised, has been the role, and this is an issue we raised–that we were talking about on Friday, the role of foster parents in the development of the decision to move and therefore the written reasons. I'm assured that that is a matter that is under development. Mrs.

Mitchelson: But, I mean, this recommendation is–again, ultimately, this makes practical common sense, and if that kind of information had been available to the foster parents and that kind of assessment had been done, we wouldn't have seen Gage Guimond placed in unsafe circumstances. * (15:10) This report is almost a year old, and Gage Guimond died in July of 2007. So we're looking at two years ago now, and we've got common sense, just very basic common sense practices that should be put in place, and the minister is still talking about giving foster parents a greater role.

I mean, that recommendation and that response by the minister was back as a result of Phoenix Sinclair, so it was even before Gage Guimond. The minister is still talking about what he's going to do to provide some support to foster parents and give them at least

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1929 something in writing so that they know what the plan is and they know what to expect. Again, I ask the minister, and he's talking about maybe this fall, something being implemented and that it has to be a fundamental change. Why isn't it a fundamental change that this minister has directed through his department to the authorities and to the agencies? I go right back to the report and having the report not come to the department, but to the authority.

So the minister hasn't taken any of these recommendations seriously, and I'd like to ask him why it's taking so long to implement something that should be good practice, good social work practice and common sense? Mr. Mackintosh: It should be corrected that the report on Sagkeeng with respect to Gage Guimond in fact did go to the department. Madam Chairperson, as the Changes for Children agenda is being implemented, we are also acting on the 144 recommendations of which some are system-wide as the member knows.

While I know the recommendations will be important to some and others may not be important to others, we're moving in a co-ordinated way to ensure that there is action taken on these recommendations. I understand that implementation has been concluded or significant progress has occurred on most of the recommendations already, but it's important that it all be done in a way that recognizes that every recommendation may be important.

But an action plan is under way and we'll see from the final tally and the work that is being done in the system with regard to the Sagkeeng report recognizing, as I say, that it is one report, a very important one, but it is also in the context of the systemic changes being made with Changes for Children in terms of more staff resources, better training, development of stronger standards, CFSIS and so on. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. I am interrupting the proceedings of this

section of the Committee of Supply because the total time allowed for Estimates consideration has now expired. Our rule 76(3) provides in part that no more than 100 hours shall be allowed for the consideration of the business of Supply. Further, our rule 76(5) provides that when time has expired, the Chairperson shall forthwith put all remaining questions without debate, amendment, or adjo urnment. I am, therefore, going to call in sequence the resolutions for the Department of Family Services and Housing.

Resolution 9.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,244,000 for Family Services and Housing, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $60,076,000 for Family Services and Housing, Housing, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $614,220,000 for Family Services and Housing, Disability Programs and Employment and Income Assistance, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $435,631,000 for Family Services and Housing, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 9.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $127,494,000 for Family Services and Housing, Community Service Delivery, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,417,000 for Family Services and Housing, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.7:

BE IT RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $931,000 for Family Services and Housing, capital investment, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. This concludes our consideration of the Estimates in this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254. I would like to thank the

1930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 ministers, critics and all honourable members for their hard work and dedication during this process. Committee rise. MANITOBA SENIORS AND HEALTHY AGING SECRETARIAT * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister responsible for Seniors): No. With the time constraints, I'll pass on my opening statement. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): No, I don't. Thank you. I just want to go right into the questions. I appreciate the minister agreeing to that as well. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Thank you both for that.

Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or to have a global discussion? An Honourable Member: Global. Ms. Irvin-Ross: Agreed. Mr. Chairperson: Global, okay. Ms. Irvin-Ross: Can I welcome my staff to the table? Mr. Chairperson: You most certainly may welcome your staff to the table, and introduce them once they get set. Just for the record, it is agreed, then, that questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has concluded. Ms. Irvin-Ross: Mr.

Chair, we are privileged today to have the deputy minister of Health, Arlene Wilgosh, with us, as well as Patti Chiappetta, who is the acting executive director. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for that. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, I want to welcome the staff from the seniors secretariat, as well as the deputy minister. I appreciate all that you do in support of the area of seniors wellness and health and well-being. I want to thank you also for all the support that you provide me when I do have questions or correspondence requests.

I'm going to go right into questions quickly. In the Expenditures book on page 11, there's an area that I just need some clarification on from the minister, and that's the expenditure

summary. Salaries and employee benefits has increased since last year from 692,000 to 724,000, yet it appears that grants to external agenci es is actually down from 773,000 to 756,000. Can the minister explain to me the discrepancy in those numbers? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The increase as far as salaries and employee benefits is we have one new staffperson that has been hired, as well as the staff at the Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat were reclassified. Regarding the external agencies funding, the money going to external agencies has not decreased.

They're getting the same dollar value that they received last year. Mrs. Rowat: Could you indicate to me the total number of salaried staff in the secretariat from last year to this year, and then also who this new individual is, what their salary is and what their roles and responsibilities are? Ms. Irvin-Ross: All right. Thank you very much.

We have: the resource co-ordinator, her name is Jeannine Carriere; acting director of policy development is Vicki Toews; administrative secretary, Marlene Cooke; administrative secretary and also responsible for the Manitoba Council on Aging is Christine Jeannin; elder abuse consultant is Shannon Kohler; consultant is Mariam Omar; consultant, Betty Brand; consultant, Teresa Snider, and we also have the new position that we referred to is Phaedra Miller. She is working on Age-Friendly and she is a PM3. Mrs.

Rowat: So, going to the grants to external agencies, you're indicating that the expenditures in that area have not change d. The Estimates show a reduction in grants and other operating. There have been reductions in both of those areas. So can the minister then–if there is no reduction, can she provide me with a list of the external agencies that

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1931 received grant funding from the secretariat through that area? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The grants that have received funding through our Advancing Age project is the Manitoba Society of Seniors, Manitoba– Mrs. Rowat: Just based on time, if the minister would be able to table that list for me, that would be great. With half an hour, that would take up most of the half an hour. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the minister for that. Minister, did you have any closing comments you wanted to make or the tabled document will do? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: The tabled document lists the agencies in which we fund, and they work very closely with us at the Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat to deliver services to Manitoba seniors. Mrs. Rowat: It does appear that the administrative costs have gone up. There's been another staffperson, but the grants to external agencies, still I haven't seen the document yet but appear to show that there's been a reduction. So the minister is telling me that there have been no reductions, no funding cuts this year within her department for grants to external agencies? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: What we are doing administratively is finding the dollars from within another budget line so we can ensure that all agencies get the money that they've received last time. Mrs. Rowat: So another budget line, meaning through the Department of Health or is that–can she indicate to me where their additional dollars are coming from? Ms. Irvin-Ross: It will be through the Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat budget. I'll just add that it's a re-allocation from othe r funding such as our Age-Friendly dollars that we will be working on moving it forward. Mrs.

Rowat: I'm assuming, then, that it's going to be coming through other operating. There's also a reduction, $317,000 to $271,000, so could the minister indicate to me what is included in this item line and is this th e budgetary line that the dollars are going to be coming from? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The $317,000 that is represented under other operating was related to expenditures which we thought we would have to spend money on relocating and renovating an office which we did not and the actual amount is $271,000. Mrs. Rowat: I have some additional questions with regard to Services to Seniors.

We had some dialogue on this last year. I'm wanting to know if the minister can indicate to me whether she's got some new information that she can share with me at all on this initiative. It appears that the RHAs have specialists in place. There's been some question about the role that these specialists play with regard to Services to Seniors. Again, the issues continue to be the same.

There's concern that the Services to Seniors who do an amazing job in the communities that I represent, and I'm sure that's across the board, across the province, but there seems to be some concern about the support that this position would have within the RHA and how the expectation and role of that individual would have with Services to Seniors. * (14:50) Ms. Irvin-Ross: I just ask the member for clarification. The RHAs have hired, is that what you're–are hiring senior specialists– An Honourable Member: Correct. Ms. Irvin-Ross: –that are working with the senior support staff?

An Honourable Member: That's what I'm going to be asking you. I want to know what their role is. There seems to be some confusion and concern within Services to Seniors as to what exactly that person's role would be. Ms. Irvin-Ross: So your question to me is what is the role of the seniors specialists that RHAs are hiring. All right. Okay. Thank you. I just want to clarify for the member that these positions with the regional health authorities aren't new. They've been in place for a while now.

What their role is is to provide guidance to seniors services across the region that they represent, as well as community development, getting people working more collaboratively together in providing those necessary services, speaking with seniors themselves and identifying what some of those issues would be. Some examples of programming that they would be implementing could be a fall prevention program.

The Support Services to Seniors is very valuable, as you have mentioned already, to the services that we provide in Manitoba to the seniors population, and you'd asked about is there any new information about what we've done as an agency and what we've accomplished. We've completed an

1932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 environmental scan of the Support Services to Seniors to help us understand the concerns which they've been raising around their salaries and benefits, as well as looking at what kinds of responsibilities that they have across the board. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, with regard to the statement that these positions have been in place for quite a while, I know that Assiniboine's position is new. It's fairly new. There was nobody in that role a year ago. This individual, I think, is fairly new, a seniors program specialist for home-based services.

I know that Central Region has one. The Services to Seniors has never met this individual. They have no idea even, really, what that role is, so there seems to be a disconnect with the Services to Seniors and the seniors program specialist. Some of the things you're indicating the role of these specialists, that's the exact responsibilities of what a Services to Seniors co-ordinator and board would be responsible for. So there seems to be some overlap, and if there is some way they could be working together, I strongly urge that.

I know that specifically to one region, when they asked to have a meeting, the Services to Seniors officers asked for a meeting, the individual from the RHA indicated they have no direct expectation of working directly with the Services to Seniors person and refused the meeting. I'm raising this as a red flag to the minister. This is not exactly how, you know, you would think a specialist who's supposed to be providing advocacy and support for the workers out there should be operating.

I don't think it's–I'm not even going to say it's one region because I'm hearing it from several regions, that there seems to be a disconnect and some concern about the role of this individual. Segue to that, then, is the funding that goes to the RHAs for senior programming. Then the questions begin to be asked of, you know, are these dollars that could be going to support seniors? Could it not be used more wisely in providing supports for the Services to Seniors co-ordinators and their boards, who have identified the needs within the community? The seniors know who to go to 24/7.

I had a conversation, not too long ago, with a Services to Seniors person. We spoke about the role of being a public servant. They, in a lot of ways, get the calls at home at 7 o'clock on Saturday night because they need something, so they respond to. So if there are ways that this can be corrected and improved upon, I think that would be most useful. With regard to the environmental scan, what is the status of that scan and when will the people that were involved in that scan be notified of the results of that scan? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The scan has been completed. Right now, it's in the process of a

summary being completed and will be shared with the community members, the Services to Seniors. I just want to follow up on your comments that you made about the role of the senior specialist at the regional health authorities and how they're working with the Services to Seni ors co-ordinators. I do concur with you that yes, they need to be working collaboratively.

So we will working with our colleagues at the regional health authority, as well as our contacts within the communities and the Services to Seniors co-ordinators in ensuring that there is no confusion about roles and responsibilities and that there is a clear definition of what people will be doing to provide the necessary supports to seniors across Manitoba. Mrs. Rowat: I encourage the minister just to keep the dialogue open with me.

If you need further information, I'd be more than willing to share that, and also what she does share with the Service to Seniors, I would appreciate a copy or be aware of anything that's forthcoming. Can the minister explain to me–I'm going to go in, now, into the congregate meal program. I know I'd asked some questions, at one point, on the congregate meal program and the funding for that program. The FIPPA that I received back from the minister shows a three-year to five-year wait list for congregate meal programs.

Can the minister explain to me why there is such a long waiting list for a program that is so important to the independence of seniors? Ms. Irvin-Ross: We know the benefits of healthy food for all Manitobans, and the congregate meal program provides a special service to older Manitobans. So, just for the member's information, regional health authorities provide annual funding to the community and tenant resource councils and seniors centres, which operate the meal programs.

The annual funding is over $6 million and we are very aware of the wait time that is occurring for some applications, but you need to know that the process is

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1933 prioritized by the RHA. They determine who is going to be receiving the service based on the funding that they receive. Our government is committed to making our province one that meets the needs of our seniors, a segment of our population which is increasing, and this is demonstrated by the many programs we have specifically for seniors, such as Age-Friendly Manitoba.

Congregate meal programs provide reasonably priced meals for the seniors, which promotes health, nutrition and social interaction and this government is in support of congregate meal programs, as illustrated by our investments. * (15:00) Mrs. Rowat: It appears that there have only been a handful of new congregate meal programs established in the city of Winnipeg alone in the last eight to nine years. I believe there were six new programs. Obviously, this is falling further and further behind.

The population of Manitoba is aging, and there is definitely a strong need for these types of programs to keep seniors living independently. I know that I've been approached by several organizations wondering where the government's commitment is on this initiative. So the minister's aware. She says they're working hard at this, but I do see that there's a lot more to be done in this area. I encourage the minister to visit that program and look at ways that there could be more meals implemented.

On page 19 of the Estimates book, one of the activities identified is: Consult with key senior serving organizations in the Advancing Age Strategy, including the Francophone and Aboriginal seniors' communities, to gain knowledge of the diverse needs and concerns of the aging population. Can the minister indicate to me who has been consulted, when they were consulted and how they were consulted? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to inform the member and put on the record that we do have 105 congregate meal programs across the province of Manitoba.

We are working with our partners, the agencies and seniors-serving organizations, as well as the regional health authorities, to try and deal with the wait list. So, around the consultation around our Advancing Age Strategy, the list that I provided to the member, of the agencies, that's a place where we have done thorough consultation with those groups. But we also need to talk about the Manitoba Council on Aging, where we have membership from across the province, and who provide advice to the minister on a regular basis. On that group, we do have Francophone and Aboriginal membership.

We also are working with the Age-Friendly Manitoba, as an initiative I'm sure the member is familiar with, where we have made many investments across the province, along with our partners, the Association of Manitoba Municipalities, as well as the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce. We have now 29 communities that are designated as age-friendly, and when we 're working with these communities, that, too, is a consultation with agencies, businesses and seniors themselves. We often have staff that are going from the Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat to many communities across Manitoba.

Recently, we were in Gladstone and participated in a conference there. We have our 1-800 line, which is accessed by agencies and individuals th emselves, where they can provide us with information. So we continue to gather information around services, whether it's recreation, health, educational services, support services, to ensure that we're providing the adequate services for older Manitobans. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister explain to me what Advancing Age Strategy is and the status of its implementation? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: The Advancing Age Strategy has been an important strategy in which we've been providing financial support to the agencies and which I distributed to the member. Through that funding that they receive, that's to build capacity across the board and to provide necessary services to promote the quality of life for older Manitobans.

Other aspects of the Advancing Age Strategy is the Elder Abuse Strategy where we have a 1-800 line for service providers to access information about services that are available to them, but we also have a counselling line that is available for victims of elder abuse as well as the safe houses that we have. So that's one part of it. Another piece that we're doing is we're working across departments and making sure that we're adding the seniors lens to a number of different initiatives. Older Manitobans are represented in all departments of government, and I think that it's really important, when we're looking at

1934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 policy and program development, that we take into account the needs of older Manitobans. Some examples of cross-departmental partnerships are with Housing, around Health services and Culture, Heritage and Tourism.

Around the Housing, you will be familiar with the Assisted Living Strategy, which we have implemented and have just recently developed housing units with Family Services and Housing at Elizabeth Road; the development in Health, the opening of the Neepawa personal care home, which is close, I know, to the member's constituency; then in Culture, Heritage and Tourism, looking at recreation and sports opportunities for Manitoba seniors.

What I'd like to put on the record as well is, as we have adopted Age-Friendly Manitoba initiatives as a priority for us, we are looking at Age-Friendly to become the umbrella, and there will be different programs and Advancing Age would be one of those programs that will fall under that initiative. Mrs. Rowat: Advancing Age and Healthy Aging strategies seem to be ove rlapping, so I'm assuming that they're all of one almost. In a sense they seem to be doing the same thing; they're just different strategies that get announced for press release and become something new.

Back to the minister's comments with regard to her statement with regard to Healthy Living and activities. When I was in Estimates with the Minister of Culture, Heritage, Tour ism and Sport, I identified a funding reduction of almost $250,000 in Sport. So I'm wanting to again ask the minister if she can indicate to me a breakdown of the reductions in other operating. There's been a reduction of over $46,000 here in the Estimates book.

Because I'm very concerned about this government indicating their concern and support for healthy living and activities, we see a reduction of over $200,000 in Sport, which, I think, one of the areas was cross-country skiing, which is a sport that I know many seniors in my constituency enjoy participating in. So I want the minister to comment on the $46,000 reduction in other operating that I just need some clarification on. * (15:10) Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, I'd like to reiterate our government's commitment to the seniors of Manitoba, and we've proved that in many different ways.

Around the operating reduction that the member speaks about, again, I will say that there was money that was in the budget, $30,000 for renovations, one-time renovations for our office space which we did not spend, so that was money that was one-time funding that was placed. The other $16,000 that she refers to has been built in to our salaries department or salaries line. Mrs. Rowat: So what we're seeing, I'm going to summarize, is that we're seeing more dollars being put into salaries and a reduction in programs and support services.

It's a $32,000 increase in salaries and employee benefits and a reduction in grants and external agencies in other operating. So what we're seeing is the seniors of Manitoba are going to be getting less out of programs and supports, but, obviously, seeing an increase in their tax dollars going to programming or employees, salaries and benefits, which I think is unfortunate because I think this government does have a role to play in assuring that seniors receive supports. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I'm interrupting the proceedings of this

section of the Committee of Supply because the total time allowed for Estimates consideration is now expired. Our rule 76(3) provides in part that not more than 100 hours shall be allowed for the consideration of the business of Supply. Further, our rule 76(5) provides that when time has expired the Chairperson shall forthwith put all remaining questions without debate, amendment, or adjournment. I am, therefore, going to call in sequence the resolutions on the following matters: Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat; Healthy Child Manitoba; Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations.

I would remind members that these questions may not debated, amended or adjourned according to the rules of the House. So, moving to resolutions: Resolution 24.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,751,000 for Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat, Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1935 Resolution 24.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,000 for Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. HEALTHY CHILD MANITOBA Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 34.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $28,393,000 for Healthy Child Manitoba, Healthy Child Manitoba Office, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 34.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,000 for Healthy Child Manitoba, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 26.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $108,618,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Enabling Vote, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 26.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,400,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 26.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,250,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Justice Initiatives, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 26.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,640,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Internal Service Adjustments, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 26.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,753,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Capital Assets–Internal Service Adjustments, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Mr.

Chairperson: Resolution 27.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $28,000,000 for Other Appropriations, Emergency Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 27.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $500,000 for Other Appropriations, Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. This concludes our consideration of the Estimates in this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255. I would like to thank all the ministers, critics and all honourable members and that of staff for their hard work and dedication during this process. Committee rise. INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Before proceeding with the Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, I would like to inform the committee of a correction that needs to be made for the record.

On Friday, during consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Inte rgovernmental Affairs, the Chair read an incorrect dollar amount when putting resolution 13.4 to the committee. The amount was read aloud as $174,606,000 instead of $174,706,000. To ensure that the correct amount is approved for the resolution, I will read it again and ask the committee if the resolution shall pass. Resolution 13.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $174,706,000 for Intergovernmental Affairs, Financial Assistance

1936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 to Municipalities, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister responsible for the Civil Service): No. Madam Chairperson: Seeing as there is none, does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (M r. Faurschou), have any opening comments? No? Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not the official– Madam Chairperson: Oh, excuse me. You'd have to ask leave to speak, not being the critic. Mr.

Borotsik: I would ask leave, Madam Chair–ask for leave to speak. Madam Chairperson: Does the Member for Brandon West have leave to speak? [Agreed] Mr. Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chair. The official critic for the Civil Service shall return very shortly, but it was my understanding that not only will it be the Estimates book that was tabled for the Civil Service but, also, there will be the Estimates book with respect to the Manitoba Employee Pensions and Other Costs will also be dealt with, of which I am the critic, and I would like to start with some global discussions on the pension costs, if I may?

Madam Chairperson: Is there agreement with the committee to allow that, to allow the Member for Brandon West? [Agreed] Mr. Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chair. If I may, to the minister responsible for the Manitoba employee pensions and other costs, I would ask, as the minister has done in the past, to talk with respect to some global issues on the pensions and then look at line by line on the Estimates book. If the minister would allow some global discussion, I would ask the minister, Madam Chair. Mr. Selinger: Yes. Madam Chairperson: That will be allowed. Mr.

Borotsik: Thanks to the minister for allowing that global discussion. Speaking to that, I wonder if the minister can tell me when the annual report of the Civil Service Superannuation pension will be tabled. I do know that in some previous years, the table for the CSSB annual report has been in June, but we're sitting now in May. I wonder if the minister has some indication as to when that report will in fact be tabled. Mr.

Selinger: I'm going to ask that the staff enter the room so we can facilitate the discussion, but in response to the member's question–while the staff are coming in, maybe Blake, you can check the doors and see if the civil servants are there. The report is required to be made public six months after the year-end, and they operate on a calendar year, so, before the end of June. Short answer, the answer I gave you is the correct one. Mr. Borotsik: That's been the history in the past. As the minister recognizes, however, this is not a typical year, certainly not a normal year.

We recognize that there have been some substantial reductions in pension plans and pension funds. The minister recognizes that there are some major issues. The TRAF account–and I know the minister doesn't have any control over the TRAF account–but its year-end is the same year-end as the superannuation fund, and they have already identified what their year-e nd results were, effective December 31, 2008. They've shown that their overall portfolio returned a minus 11.7 percent and it shows that this compares favourably to the weighted benchmark of minus 14.3 percent according to the BNY Mellon Asset Servicing.

Can the minister give me some indication, perhaps, that the superannuation fund would be on a similar basis of the TRAF account? Mr. Selinger: The short answer is that they will have, first, their annual meeting of the Civil Service Superannuation Fund. They have to have their annual meeting and I understand that's being scheduled for the latter part of May. After that, the board will decide when they want to release the report before June 30, which is their statutory requirement, to do it six months after their year-end.

May 11, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1937 I believe the member will recall that the fund said that they felt their experience for the year would be between minus 14 and minus 18. That was sort of–they gave general parameters on that and I have no reason to believe that it'll be other than within those parameters when they've finalized and make official the number.

I'm kind of in a situation where I have to let them follow their regular pr ocess of going to their annual meeting, presenting the report to their board of directors and the people at the meeting and then, after that, it's up to the board to decide the specific date when they will release it but, as soon as it's out, I'll get a copy and I'll get the member a copy. * (14:50) Madam Chairperson: Now that the staff are seated, would the minister perhaps like to introduce the staff in attendance? Mr.

Selinger: Yes, I have with me the senior assistant deputy minister of Finance, Bruce Gray as well as Larry Grant from treasury board, labour relations. Scott Wiebe from treasury and Collin Cassidy from the public accounts managers in the comptroller's office. Mr. Borotsik: Once again welcome to the staff. We've had this opportunity to have this discussion on a number of occasions over the last couple of weeks and it's always a pleasure to have all the members of the staff here with the minister. Mr.

Minister, you had indicated that the annual meeting for the superannuates will be the end of May at which time when they approve the report. It will then be given to yourself and then distributed to the rest of the Legislature. In saying that, does the minister, and we talked about the minus 14 percent as being the suggested or proposed amount of reduction in the plan, has the minister received any indication at all from the plan and it's management that, in fact, is a reasonable number to expect for a decrease in the plan? Mr.

Selinger: Yes, I said that after the annual meeting then the board will decide when I receive the report. There's no guarantee that it will show up on my desk the immediate day after the annual meeting. I also indicated that the loss experience they had indicated would be in the range of minus 14 to minus 18 percent. I also indicated that there's no suggestion that it will be outside of that range at this stage of the game but I didn't suggest it would be minus 14. It will probably be higher than that in terms of the losses, in other words, minus 15, 16, 17, somewhere in that range.

So as soon as I get the information–I mean, they've indicated that to me, they've given me some idea around that, but I'm trying to follow the proper process here of respecting the fact that the superannuation fund technically is in charge of its own business. I actually can't tell them directly what to do. It's one of those classic examples where you're responsible for them but they actually follow their legislative mandate and they will provide me the information in due course according to the legislative mandate. Mr. Borotsik: Thank you. That is, in fact, correct.

The superannuation fund looks after their own pension but the minister does have a substantial investment into that plan as the pension asset fund for the superannuances actually placed under their management. So the minister does have some of the cash as defined on his own balance sheet being administered by that fund. I appreciate that there are rules that are legislative requirements. I'm sure the minister is probably as equally as curious as to the situation of that plan as I am at the present time so I look forward to having that report as early as possible.

In saying that, the pension asset fund is identified to the number of $2.889 billion in the 2009-2010 budget on page 22. There is a pension asset fund which is controlled by the Department of Finance. It's $2.889 billion. Can the minister tell me what portion of that fund is identified as TRAF and what portion of that fund would be identified as the superannuation? Mr. Selinger: The member I believe was referring to an amount of about $2.8 billion and of that, the TRAF amount would be about $1.77 billion and the sup fund amount would be about $1.1 billion. Mr.

Borotsik: I thank the minister for that information, Madam Chair. Of the $1.77 billion, there was $1.5 billion that was borrowed, and that was borrowed in the 2007-2008 fiscal year. Is that correct? When reading the budget book, it says that the cost of borrowing–it's a sound fiscal decision to borrow the money to offset the unfunded liability, and the minister and I have talked about this on a couple of occasions. It says here the cost of borrowing is less than the actuarial determined expected rate of return over the plan assets and the rate of growth in the pension liability. So basically

1938 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2009 what they're saying is it's cheaper to borrow money, pay it off over a period of time because the ROI, or th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-3-39
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 3rd hansardpdf 39.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8c9cd01892e81e9de024854139f58c34e64abb94

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