Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 26, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 55

/ Anril 26, 1974 The House met at 10:00 A,M, Mr. Speaker. in the Chair. Tane 1330 (Morninr,) }IF., SPF A KER : Or-der, please! ~f!NIST!".RIAL ·STATEJ>fENTS PK - 1 MR. S. A, NEARY< Mr. Speaker, before you get to miniRterial statementB, Sir, I would like to rise on a point of personal privilege. I refer to an article, Sir, in this morning's "Daily News'". It is headed "Crosbie says Steve did it.u Just above, Sir, 1s a girl with a bady in her arms. Now, S:l:r, I am right in between the Premier with his - Si.i, ·.

I do 110:t know if this warrants a judic~~~ enquiry or not but certainly~_:':·. ~e.lec.~ .. committee of the House should be set up to investip:ate this statement. REPORTS OF STANDIITG AND SELF.CT CO!'J'ITTEES HON. C, W, DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Hr, Speaker, I have here the details on the trawler subsidy agreement between govermnent and the National Fish.people and between the Atlantic Sugar neople and Marystown Shipyard. In accordance with the legislation these deta:Us should have been tabled fifteen days afte;··the_. agreement was entered into. It is somewhat late but we have it here an~~ay.

Thank you. MR. SP~R:' "AnSWers to questions for -w-h:fch notice has been gi.ven -... , ORAL QUESTIONS: OP.DP.RS OF THE DAY On motion that the House' resolve itself into Committ~t?,; of Supply;; Mr. Speaker Jeft the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPJ,Y MR, CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Order, please! For the information of honourable members we have now conm.mm1e<l twenty-one hours and th~rty-six minutes. The honourable Member for Bonavista South. MR, J. C, MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman! '-fr.

Chairman, last evening twas referr:ln11: to the attitude of members of the House of Assembly towards the progrannne of rural develoum{:!nto I was comparing the attitude of the members on the opposi.t:lon side of the Fouse. Fortunately, I th:fnk that the opposition members are realit.1n~ finally that this programme is a good programme. It is working for the 4356

April 26, 1974 Tane 1330 (~orning) PK - 2 House. Fortunately, r th-J.nk that the opposition members are reali:d.ng finally that this programme is a good programme. It is 1vorking to the benefit of rural Newfoundland. It 1.s not what it had been labelled in the pa~t; as a nrogramme of political payoffs, a programme of political patronage. I think this was ind:f.cated to the House of Assembly last even1.n?, when the honourable ~1emher for Bell Island, as I earlier stated, had the courage of hi~ convictions to stand in the House of Assembly and give credit where credit is due.

To point out that the programme is working well in his district. It is creating jobs. It has helped to establish a fish nlant. It has helped to establish r.reenhouses. It has also helped in the dairy farming business I think he mentioned in hl.a district. These are .1ust examples in his own district which are similar to the examples in our districts, on the $~vernment side because there is no diRcrimination in re!?;ards· fq the applications heing made. The application p.rocessed by the Rural Development Authority are based on the feasibility of the projects that the assistance is anolied for.

There is no question whether the individual applicant is a P.C. or a L:f.heral or. a N.D.P., as· was earlier charged and stated over and over . ---------- i by ~9lte.~gues of th" honourable Memher for Bell Island. To listen t:o a Spokesman on the Rural Development, from the ooposition side of the House of Assembly, to listen to him stand in this coromitteeyesterday and to say that this was one of the biggest failures of this government, the Rural neVelopment Programme. It leads me to ask a question - !s the honourable Member for Hermitage standing alone? noes he have the support of his caucus?

Is he just indicating his own personal vi~ws on th:f.a r>roRramme? And on P.ural Development? And the policies of Pural nevelonment by this ~overnment? !t seems to me he does not have the sup·port of his colleaguese He is not soeaking the caucus view, the Liberal official, the Liberal "f.t.' Opposition caucus view. He is stating his own pet'sonal view. If h~.,be statin17, his own personal view, ! call upon him to. and ! challenp:e him 435 .,

Aoril 26, 1974 Tape 1330 (Morning) PK - 3 to name names, to give the information he is talking about, indicate where we have made loans by the twisting-arm attitude that he referred to last night, that we are giving people loans which are going to hurt them fit}ancially. nPutting people in debt; 1 he says. "In a position where they will never he able to Ret out. Never recover financially~ these small business operations in rural Newf·oundland. 11 He re-emphasized the patronage and the payoffs.

If he is going to continue to make these charges, and if he is going to do them without the support of his o-wn colleagues, I, think he has the obU.g,:1t:t.on to th1.s committee to give us names, to substantiate the charges. If not~ ''iet him shut up and stop making these silly nonsensical, unsubstantiated charp,es in the future. HON. MEMBllRS: Hear! Hear! MR. MORGAN: He even went so far to say that the only reason why the programme was ·workin~., Was because of the leadership and because of the c:tvi l servants who are working in that deµartment.

Nobody can deny, I am sure I cannot, because I have worlr.ed with them, and many loans have been processed in my district, that these civil servants who are working with that department are doing an excellent job.

But I am sure nobody can deny either that the Min:f.ster of Rural ( Development, if there be any minister in this government who has worked hard in the past twelve months - sitting where I am. seeing the min:J.ster and watch him work, to carry out the duties - if there be any ministe~ in this government who is working hard for his department, for this government~ it is the Honourable Minister of Rural Development. 1iNo leadership", he says. The opposition, the indiv_idual opr,os::J.tio-n spokesman, not the official opposition view, the individual opposition spokesman. keeps on saying; 1 'There is no leadershin.

The de-oartment has no leadership. It is only the policies that are being carried out by the civil servants. That is what is making parts of the P.rogramme working because of the attitude of the various civil ~ervants in that department~ '1 So we finally see, Mr. Chairman, that all these charges that were made in the past are reallv the charges of one individual in this Assembly 4358

J,j)rH 26, 1974 Tape 1330 (Morning) PK - 4 not the official view of the opoosition. This I am sure substantiate.s what we have being saying on the government sidei the p~ogratnmE, is a good programme. It is working for the benefit of rural Newfoundland and rural Newfoundlanders. I would like to see some minor adjustments in the Rural Development At.1thority in regards to the loans they are making. I think the programme :f.s work:l.ng really good.

It is about the first time that people who have sawmills and small business operations, for the first time they have now somewhere to turn to where they can get a loan of $2,000, $3,000, $5,000 or $10,000, a maximum of $10,000. But in many cases,some feasible operationa,to $10,000 ceiling is not enough. I >1ould like to see the $10,000 ceiling raised to $20,000 or $25,000, This would help some of the already existinp. operatJons. exr,and·to where they can pt'actlcallv triple their employment 4359

April 26, 1974 (Morning) Tape No,1331 ID! - 1 $10,000 is not enough in my view. It is enough to purchase a tractor or some equipment which is going to aid the saw mill operato·rs but there are some feasible applications I am sure from business people in rural ~fowfoundland in connection with the primary resources that could use more than $10,000. The only $Duree of funds they have to help them right now is the Rural Development Authority. So I would like to see the loans raised from the present $10,000 ceiling to $20,000 or $25,000. Mr. Chairman, I will not take up the debate on this heading any longer.

I am just going to say this Rural Development Department is a new department of this government. It is not some old policy which was passed on from the previous administration4 It is a brand new policy. It is a brand new department, culminated by this government and is working well fOr rural Newfoundland and any further charges made by irresponsible politicians, individualists in this House of Assembly, any further charges should be substantiated. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. RR. WM.

ROWE: I would like to say a word or two on the vote which we are now d~scussing, the minister's ~alary,ana· I think perhaps most of my remarks will centre around the Rural Development .. !i-'-:1-'~h~~ity. because I believe traditionally we .have more or less discussed the many matters in the department under the minister's salarf and then ··• .. - --·-. restrict the other votes to hriefer statements and questions and answers. 5:tr, I was interested to hear the gentleman who just sat down refer to statements by irresponsible politicians concerning this head of expenditure or any other head of expenditure.

This gentleman who rose in this House sometime ago and lambasted the Newfoundland ~nd Labrador Development Authority I believe,. '.,giving no substantiation at all except for the fact that he went down with some harebrained scheme, Mr. Chairman, and had it turned down and stands in this House and uses his position as - MR, MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, ........ ·•-·-- . -4300 '

April 26, 1974 Tape No. 1331 MR. WM. ROWE: What is the point of order, Mr, Chairman? MR. MORGA,;.'I: Th~ _point of order, Mr. Chairman, is that the. honourable member for White Bay South is giving incorrect information. I have not spoken in any debate with regards to the Newfoundland and Labrador D~velopment Corporation, never in tllis House or (!u~side the -Huse ~ NM - 2 MR. WM. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I will not even grace that point of order with a reply, it bfring obviously if anything a difference of opinion or fact between two honourable members. If Your Honour wish to rule on it1 MR. CHAIRMA., (MR.

STAGG): In the opinion of the Chair it is indeed a difference of opinion between two members. MR. WM. ROWE: If the honourable member would sit down and give everyone else the courtesy that he was accorded perhaps he might learn something. It is a little sickening, Sir, to hear statements from that particular honourable member concerning. irresponsible statements by politicians, it is just a bit sickening.

If there be anyone in this House; Sir, who is given to irresponsible statements it --- ·-·-- , is that honourable-member, the member for Bonavista South, the great crusaddr of the civil rights _in this province, the m~n who stands behind the citizens in their fight f~r equality and fair play but who does not hesitate to lash out against unions or against the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation or ' any other body,with no substantiation of his arguments whatsoever. "'Sir, ·r realize' I aill running the ·dangE!r o_f. bec?tn~ll~ -· irrelevant.

But, Sir, the Rural Development Authority is a controversial • institution. There are strong feelings on both sides as to its use. validity, its operations, the fact that there may or may not be political partisanship involved in the operations of the Rural Development.Authorit~. I would like to go on the record as stating my position having looked at it for some months and talked to people about it and ~otten information from the mini~ter and the department and from 4361

,' April 26, 1974 Tape No. 1331 NM - 3 other sources and I am prepared to admit at the outset that the Rural Development Authority when started was started 'W'ith the best of intentions. I am prepared to admit that, Mr. Chairman. I do not think that the honourable minister, whether he be competent or incompetent to run this particular department, I do not think the honourable minister started out at the beginning to have a give-away programme, to give away money to friends of the government for political purposes.

I do not think he started out with that intention~ Whether that has in fact happened in the process of the operations and the development of the Rural Development ~.~u~horitY wJ 11 be seen in the course of this debate.

The hono~rabl~ member for Hermitage has g·iven some overwhelmingly. strong evidence that there is partisan~hip involved in the operations of the authority, that the government, the minister and the ministers on the authority are using this as a political payoff; to use the wordS of the member for Hermitage. ,Now, Sir, I believe that the operations of the Rural Development Authority has gotten completely out of hand.

No matter . , what the good or bad intentions were when the Rural Development Authority was I out of hand. first established, I believe that.it has Rotten • r - ~ I will_giV:~ some evidence,· Sir, this mornit?-R,. tC!. .. support what I am say~ng.: When the Rural Developmeu.t Author! ty was first annO!J~C~d., first set up and announced, the settit}g up of it was announced, I asked the question of the Minister of Industrial Development - I do not know what portfolio he held then, I believe it was Economic Development or perhaps it was Industrial Development- I asked him a q_uestion in this Hou9:e. Mr.

Chairman, I asked him what the criteria were for the _operatib.ns of the Rural Development Authority. l asked him whether the money would be given out for what might be called secondary or:terti~;y industry in the province.for garages for example, for other types of service industries,and I was nearly laughed out of the House by the honourable minister, Mr. Chairman. "This particular prograrmne, the Rural Development Authority was going to be resource oriented, 11 says the honourable Minister of Industrial 4362

April 26, 1974 Development. What is this? AN HON. ME,!BER: Inaudible. Tape No. 1331 N>1 - 4 MR. h;'1. 'R.OWE: We tried to, Mr. Speaker. "How could an honourable memher of this House be so stupid as to think that money in rura 1 Newfoundland was just going to be flung out for every kind of foolish little industry that might be proposed to the Rural Development Authority •. It was going to be based on the resources of rural :-tcwfoundlan<l. 11 ~ did not pursue it any farther because I thought that that was a good idea.

I thought that it was a good idea to have money available to people who were going to-set up industries in rural Newfoundland for saw millin~, for operations_in connection with the fishery,for example, for other operations, perhaps the tourist industry, for that matter,·· small_industries based on the resources of rural Newfoundland and the idea that Money might be available to people to set up every kind of little industry that they want, mortuaries for example, funeral ho~es for example. If I had suggested at that time, Ur. Chairman, that_th.i~-. pror,rawme was goi.ng tp be used for mortuaries - AN HON.

MD1BtR: That is a resource MR. \11"')1. ROWE: A great resource, yes. What kind of a resource? MR. EVNlS: Inaudible·, m. t.N. ROWE: They do not grow very much though,. something_ "iike ·the honourab 1 le member for Burgeo.. It does not grow very much, in stature or otherwise. But, !-"r. Chaim.an, if I had stood up in this I.:ouse a year or two ago whenever this was first announced and said, "I will guarantee ••• 11 I\:? mn;. HS~-mr·:f"'..: Inaudible, ~"'-. I·!'!. ROHE: The honourable minister will v,et his opportunity to speak. If l had said, ~-1r.

Chairman, t1.10 year~ apo in this House thnt I het vou $10,0()() r.rants or loan3 would be ma.dP.: for service stat{ons, for mortuaries or that type of opcr~tion,,I would h~ve been la.up-hed out of this aouse by the! honourable ministers. I did 4363

April 26, 1974 Tape No, 1331 NM - 5 not have the gall to even suggest that, Mr. Chairman. I suggested that perhaps at the time I suggested that it night be politically motivated. That has been borne out as we shall see as we have seen. But I would not have had the gall to suggest that it would have been used in the fRshion that it has been used b~cause I thought that even that would have be 4 en ·outside the scope of the operations ... . of even this particular -~dm~nistrl3:tion. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, all you have to do now is look at the lists. I have a list here. What is it? January 15.

It is not the most recentc,undoubtedly there are more recent lists but ft is one I have in my file. What do we see'?

A $7,000 grant to a gentleman and his industry is excavating. $10,000, a grant for a baker or a loan for a bakery, auto-body shop, pulpwood transport, perhaps that is a valid use of the money, sewing centre, mechait.ical servicing, machine servicing, mechanical servicing again, carpenter shop, car-body repairs, construction, appliance repair shop, .-~~.: television repair and servicing, purchase of a longliner, that may be a valid use,although we have other programmes in the government (do we not?) for helping fishermen with the purchase of boats. 4364

April 26, 1974 Tape 1332 ( moi::ning) IB-1 I think it was the purchase of boats. The Fisheries Loan Board has alw_ays hccn available for that but the Rurnl Devc.lopment Authority suddenly pokes in in one particular instance and gives a man a loan to buy a long-liner even though there is another authority available in the government for that particular purpose. Food processing is another one. Electrical shop, a great resource development industry, Mr. Chairman. Electronics servicing, whatever that is. Metal products manufacturing. ,Mechanical insulation. Florist shop, Nr.

Chairman, in that great rural Town of Windsor. Florist - flower shop in rural Newfoundland, Windsor. Well, I n1ean if Windsor is rural Newfoundland - I suppose compared to Toronto and St. John I s it is rural but in Newfoundland's context Windsor is not a rural center and certainly a flower shop is hardly .the develOpment of our resources as ordinarily understood. Trucking, Mr. Chairman. Truck-body manufacturing - there is one for "you - in St. John's,on the Topsail Road in St. John's, truck-body manufacturing. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is not in St. John's. MR, W.

ROWE: Well, I mean I can only go by what it says. I will I not give the name because I do not think that is - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. w. ROWE: Topsail Road,City Truck Body Manufacturing - there is nothing wrong with it, Mr. Chairman. All I am saying is that this government has misled the people of Newfoundland. It was supposed to be for rural Newfoundland and it was supposed to be for the development of resource industries. Truck body manufacturing in St. John's is neither rc$ource development n~r rural Newfoundland.

Now, if the minister is trying to convince members of the , House that it is resource development and that it is rural Newfoundland, then we understand why this Rural Development Authority is completely off the rails. Now, we have an inkling as to why the thing is a complete shambles if that is what the honourable minister is trying to convince this House and the people of Newfoundland of, Mr. Chairman. 4365

,' April 26, 1974 Tape 1332 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is the honourable member's opinion. MR. W. ROWE: Well, I think most reasonable people would say that St. John's is not rural Newfoundland - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They arc not in St. John's, MR. W. ROWE: Well, why does it say city? I mean, ·I can only go by the list given by the honourable minister. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. STAGG): Order, please? Order, please! IB-2 All honourable gentlemen have an opportunity to participate in the debate.

The member for White Bay South while his remarks may not be agreed to by honourable members to my left, nevertheless·has his right to make them as long as he remains relevant within the bounds of parliamentary practice. So, I suggest that the honourable member be heard in silence. MR, W, ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Most reasonable people I believe, Sir, would agree that truck-body manufacturing although a laudable industry - ·perhaps there should be public support for such an industry, I do not know as that is something that can be argued back and forth - is not resource development as w~ were told in public statements and in this House. If I can belieye the list put out by the minister's own department in which it gives the name of the company, ~ it says, "Topsail Road, City" oi: is it topsail Road, Corner Brook, ( do not know. Topsail Road City to me means Tcpsail Road, St. John's or near St. John's.

It is not ~ural Newfoundland. There is a newspaper. A newspaper was given a grant. That may be a laudable enterprise too. A newspaper was given a loan·or a grant. I believe it was a loan. "Loans, Grants 11 they say up on ~- this list made to January 5, 1974, I presume that is a loan, It is a laudable enterprise. The only thing I am saying, Sir, is that when this body was first set up. there was no inkling given to the people of Newfoundland as a whole, the~e was no inkling given to them that money was going to become available for this kind of enterprise.

If there had been, there might have been another hundred people 4366

April 26, 1974 Tape 1332 IB-3 in Newfoundland who might have applied for a loan or a grant for a newspaper or ~ flower shop or a mortuary. When people wrote me letters from my district or especially When they called me looking for advice, whenever they wrote a letter, ~. usually referred it on down to the Rural Development Authority.

When they called me looking for advice and said, 11 What is this new Rural Development Authority that is set up? 11 I stupidly, not having gatned any.thing from my experiences with this government, would say to the people from my distrfct who would call up, !!My understanding is that this is for resource development. Sawmill operations may be okay.

Perhaps something associated with the fishery may be okay, something associated with Touris111:.wf.ich is a type of resource development in Newfoundland may ·be okay." If somebody had suggested to me that they wanted a loan - I remember talking to one gentleman, a few days after the Rural Development Authority was set up, in La Scic, a gentleman by the way who has been a consistent supporter, one of the few, of this administration but he is a friend of mine as well, came to me and said, "I want to take on two or three mechanics in my garage I have in La Scie.

I wonder can I get a loan of money.' 1 I said, "Well, I will make certain inquiries ·for you through manrower for example I . and t!"tr_Ough the Newfoundland and Lab.radar Development Corporation. 11 He said, 11 What about this new one, 'the Rural Development Authority?" I said, "My understanding is that this is for resource development." I misled · that gentleman, Mr. Chairman, relying on this government. I misled him.

Now, subsequently, I believe, if memory serves me correctly - I have not looked at my files lately - I believe even at the time I sent letters ✓ to the Rural Development ~ Authority conccrninc this particular gentleman, I misled that gentleman, Mr. Chairman, at the outset because I relied on the announcement, the public statements of this government. A}l no:WuRABLE ?1r:MBER: Inaudible. MR. W, ROWE: Yea, I misled the publi_c! I straightened out, Mr. Chainnan, as I mentioned earlier in this debate - A:1 HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, 4367

/ April 26, 1974 Tape 1332 IB-11 MR. W. ROWE: Well, I hope they are getting letters. That is the whole idea. I mean, what does the honourable Minister of Transportation expect to get after his government makes a statement that there are no· more special areas, number one and that there is $100 million available'! HR, CHAIRMAN (MR. STAGG): Order, please! Honourable members for one reason or another have diverted themselves into a matter which is not relevant. MR. W, ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am trying to develop my remarks here as Your Honour knows but the honourable Minister of Transportation and Industrial Development tried to divert me by throwing out a red herring.· Sir, misleading: Now, why would the go~ernment miSlcad the public or try to mislead the public of this province? Why would they do that, Sir?

Would they do it so that there would not be a general flood of requests from all -over Newfoundland for loans for bak0rie8; _newSpapers,. flower shops, mortuaries, machine .shops, g~rages, restaurants for all I know may be in here as well but that the word could be passed to their friends to make applications for this type of an :operation l. If they did so, that the money would become available to them while precluding other people in Newfoundlandl That is certainly one deduction, Mr. Chairman, that cari be , . made by anyone who has looked at the evidence to date.

This is where I believe the member for Hermitage is right on when he said that there is political patronage involved in this and political pay-offs. I believe he is right on. I believe that he is on to something and he has given evidence of a general nature concerning the districts. Metal products manufacturing in Mount Pearl. Metal productt manufacturing in rural Newfoundland, Mount Pearl. Even the Premier, Mr. Chairman - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mental products. MR. w. ROWE: Mental products? Well, in that case then we would have no objection whatsoever to political patronage, Mr. Chairman.

We would agree with the way the money is being lashed out to the friends of this administration. Metal products manufacturing in rural Newfoundland, that 4368

April 26, 1974 Tape 1332 IB-5 village, isolated village of Mount Pearl. Clothing manufacture; construction; cannery and cooperage, I believe that is good. That is a resource development. Shoe repair shop, a resource development? Tuna boat operation, Topsail, rural Newfoundland. Does not the honourable minister even know this? Things are not being done behind his hack? I can not believe it, Mr. Chainnan. Electrical contractor; Refrigerator sales and services, Mr. Chairman. That is in Lewisporte. That is more rural certainly than Mount Pearl or Windsor. Mr.

Chairman, refriger~tor sales and services is a great resource development, a great :f.ndustry, small industry, resource development industries that this government was going to bring into the province.. Mechanical servicing; electrical servicing; shoe manufacturing; beauty salon - now, certainly that is a resource development but not as usually understood by economists. The dismal science of economics would not consider a beauty salon as a development of a resource, Mr. Chairman. It would not but still money was thrown out, a loan was made to as$,ist in the establishment of a beauty salon.

Electrical contracting again; artificial wreaths manufac,turing. 4369

April 26, 1974. Tape 1333 (Morning) Rll - l t do not know why the member for Harbour Grace allowed all of this to go on or of course that would not be too much of a conflict with his own industries, Artificial Wreaths Manufacturing, Mr. Ch3.irman, you know, a great resource development, no doubt about it; prefabrication of pipe. Mortuary i.n Carboncar, now the member for Harbour Grace has shown what a statesman he is by allowing all kinds of competition to spring up on either side of him by the use of government funds for a mortuary in Carbonear. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable members on the other sidii"can joke and be as jocular as they want but what we are talking about is" the use of public funds for a purpose. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: Well, I mean are all services going to be provi<led? shall· I tell my constituents in White Bay South that no matter what they want to set up they are going to get money for it? Afl HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Wreaths Manufacturing, that is a needed service, is it? A.N HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is wrong with that? MR. ROWF.: In Qarbonear?

Well, is a wreath manufacturing company needed in say Plum Point? I mean can I now tell my colleague and ' close relation who is not in the House today, be is in his own district, when he comes back can I tell him that he should ask a person, somebody in Plum Point ~o send in an application to manufacture artificial wreaths and get $10,000. AN HONOURABLE MEl!HER: Inaudible. MR. R0\-1E: Oh! I see. So I can tell them in La Scie, Baie Verte, Westport, Fleur de Lys, Coachman's Cove - A.N HONOURABLE MEMBER: As long as they are not competing with some local firm,and the honourable member knows·~that .• MR.

ROWE: Well a very few people in Westport are making artificial wreaths today. A.N l!Ol!OURABLE MEMBER: There are not being very many s_old down there. MR. ROWE: Well I am sure there could be a demand created, as much 4370

April 26, 1974. Tape 1333 (Morning') RH - 2 as a demand, Mr. Chairman, as in Carbonear or whatever the place was that I mentioned. A.'T EmT0URABLE }IF.MEE~: Inaudible. MR. W. ROt,'E: ~fortuary, I am sure a mortuary could be very useful. I am sure somebody could use $10,000 to set up a mortuary. Mr. Chaiman, the whole thinr, is ridiculous, to even listen to the minister try to rationalize what has been.done with public money. In this regard it is the hight of nonsense. Mobile Welding Operation, a great resource development·; Sheet Metal Manufacturing; Harbour Grace, a mortuary, another mortnary.

Are their more people dying in that area or something, Mr. Chairman, that the demand is so great? AN HmlOURABLE '1EIIBER: The honourable member is not reading it right - MR. ROWE: Well, I mean, I can only read what the min:tster sent to me, Mr. Chairman and what does he send to me? He sends to me, Harbour Grace. names of persons, rrtortuary. Now I mean if that be some­ thin~ else, if thnt be a horse shoeing factory, then maybe. the minister should tell us, tell the committee. Why would he give me wrong information :Ln a 11st which he·sent to Me at my request?

AN HONOURABLE lfFftBER: - The honourable member would not underst.and J-t. Listen to him, Mr. Chairman. Listen to him. Listen to the honourable minister. Even the fact that he is not ashamed of what has been going on in the Rural Development Authorities is evidence of sor.1ethinv.. M'r. Chainnan, trying _to defend it at this late date. I will give it to him. Plt.lfTlbiniz and Heatinp.:, metal products. Ah! Ea! Rustic fencinp, Mr. Chairman, rustic fencing. T,That is metal products manufacturinr,, by the way? Uhat is that? N·1 l-1fl:'10lfRABLE ~MP,FR: Alul'linum sidinp:. - --- AlUMinum Bidin~.

Is the minister on the Rural DevelopMent Authority? The Minister of Industrial Dev~lorment, Mr. Chairman, is not on the Rural Development Auth~rity. A.'11 11/J'!OlJRAflLE MEHHF.R: Inaudible. 4371 <.

/ April 26, 1974. Tape 1333 (Hornin~) RH - 3 MR. H. ROWE: Oh! I see. Now he remembers that he is on the Rural Development Authori~y but the honourable minister who is on the Rural Development Authority cannot tell us what metal manufacturing is. He thinks it is aluminum siding. Very interesting. Plumbing and heating, I suppose, Mr. Chairman, another plumbing and heatinr,, bakery, commercial cleaning, another great resource development. Now I am sure, Sir, that there are pec;>ple who would be interested in getting into commercial cleaning.

I have only noticed one uµ to, as of January 15, 1974, only one commercial cleaning operation~but I am sure that all over this Province there are people who are i~terested in getting· itttb commercial cleaning, in the larger centres, certainly. Now what the minister should do is to make sure that the ,,,, . scope of the authority is well known to everybody throughout this Province. He should make sure of that. He should make sure that anybody who wants a loan to set up a connnercial cleaning operation gets a loan for it. This gentleman near the city of St. John's got it. Mr.

Chairman, he is the only one as far as I can see. I am sure that not very many people are aware in this Province that they can get money fCr commercial cleaning or for mortuaries and this sor~ of thing. , The minister should make sure that people are aware of that. Mechanical servicing, Concrete Product Manufacturing in Grenfell Heights, I Would assume Grand Falls, another rural part of this ' Province. Painting and contracting, another bakery, electronic servicing 2.nd flower nursery, another resource. Maybe that is ~ood Mr. Chairman, but it is not what is usually understood by resource develop~ent.

That is the whole problem. That is where the p,overn­ ment has misled the people of this Province by not tellinr them that , this was a free-for-all, by not explaining pro.perly to the people that any kind of an idea that the ingenuity of man could dream up qualified for a loan from the Rural Development Authority. 4372

April 26, 1974. Tape 1333 (Morning) RH - 4 The people were given the wrong impression. They thought that there were constraints on the lending out of these hundreds of thousands of dollars of public funds. They thought i:hat the constraints were resource Oevelo?ment or at least somethinp, closely related to resource development. Mechanical servicinr ara:f.n: I picke.d out some of the things, Sir, which r.o to show that this prorramme is comr,letely off the tracks, completely off the rails. It has been called a political payoff. Now l do not know if it is a political payoff or not. ·1 suspect it very stronr~ly.

I suspect that it is a political payoff because how can")'ou explain some of the inconsistencies which I am' .. now going to mention to this honourable committee. I read out certain thinis which were allowed and given funds for by the Rural Development Authority. Now I have come across by chance a list of applications approved and rejected in one varticular district in this Province. Phat do we find? Aoproved but not yet executed, but the approval of tPe givinr, of money has been given to a certain gentle­ man, $10 1 001') to purchase a used timber iack. That is the reason the money was piven to this p:entleman.

Again anot,.her gentler1an here, to purchase one used timber .1ack, this i.s another gentleman. That is two separate g:entleman who have received ' money to purchase timber jacks in association with their lop,ginp, enterprises that they are either setting up or expanding. Now, Hr. Chairman, that was approved, you see, 11 approved a.ppli­ cation .11 Now I come to another one which ·is applications rejected or deferred this particular gentleman, amount requested, $10, 00()! purpose - purchase of a·timber Jack~ re.1ected or deferred? Rejected. Reason for rejection - outside the scope for financinv..

Outside the scope of the operations of the Rural Development AuthOrity, Another rentleman made an application for money·, $3_6,ooo~ ~16,000 he.requested. Industry - a funeral home: purpose - to establish the business: t-:hat happened? - rejected. \.Thy? Outstde 4373

/ April 26, 1974 Tape no, 133~ Page I - MW the scope of the Rural Development Authority: ~ow, Mr. Chairman, the whole thing is mind boggly. We have seen examples of - we have read out examples where people have received loans of money to set up mortuaries and funeral, homes. Yet we see here information supplied by the minister's own department where applications were made for timberjacks, to purchase timberjacks by way of a loan from the Rural Development Authority. It was rejected because it was outside the scope of the Rural Development Authority. There was an application made to establish a funeral home.

It was rejected,outside the scope of the Rural Development Authority. Another ex.ttuple, Sir, there was $7,000 requested, the i~dustry, subcontracting; purpose, to purchase a backdigger; a small construction company obviously. We have seen examples where construction companies have been approved by the Rural Development Authority, What happened? Rejected. Reason? The project is neither job creative, not going to create any jobs nor {I suppose there is going to be a horse or something running the ba~kdigger,· I do not know) is it resource Oriented. That is the reason for the rejection, I Mr. Chairman.

A gentleman from Rural Newfoundland applied for a loan of money to buy a piece of equipment in conjunction with an already existing construction company or to set one up. I am not sure of all the facts of the case. He was rejected. The rejection was based on the fact that it is not job creative. although other construction companies received loans of money. It is rejected and the additional reason given is that it is not resource oriented. In Other words, Mr. Chairman, ·chis Development Authority uses the criteria which were passed out to the public of Newfoundland; namely, resource development.

It has to be involved with resource development. There has to be an orientation around resource development. It uses those criteria or that criterion when it sees fit bu~ yet when 4374

April 26, 1974 Tape no, 133't Page 2 - ~!W· it does not see fit, Sir, it throws the regulations or its guidelines out the window and makes a grant or a loan to somebody, I do not know if it is for political partisan purposes or not. All I know is that when your dealing with politicians in power that an opposition and the people of Newfoundland must be on their guard constantly lest public money is being used for political purposes of a partisan nature. It is either that, Sir, or the Rural Developme~t Authority operates whimsically or capriciously or has no rules or regulates or guidelines.

It might like the colour of a man's eyes and therefore, he gets the $10,000 loan to buy a piece of construction equipment. It might not like the colour of a man's hair in another case in which case he does not get the loan because it is either outside the scope of the authority or it is not job creative or because it is not resource oriented. Another gentleman in Rural Newfoundland: His industry, sawmilling; (resource oriented) purpose, to pay off a loan on a timberjack. I would assume that the man's back was breaking under the financial load he was carrying in connection with his sawmill operation.

What happe~ed to it? It was rejected. It was outside the scope of the authority,repaying previous loans outside the scope of the authority. That smacks, Mr. Chairman, of a rule or a guideline dreamed up on the spur of the moment to make this rejection. Another gentleman in Labrador City: He wanted $35,000 by way of a loan to build a bµilding supplies and carpenter shop, which was the nature of the industry. This'was referred to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. There are other examples of that.

A $10',000 loan, Sir, in connection with a logging operation,to purchase a tractor; Now we have seen examples of where money has been given to people or loans have been made· to people to buy equipment - $10,000, which seems to be within the scoPe of the upper limits of the Development Authority, in connection with his logging operation to purchase a tractor. That has not b~en approved by the Rural Development. It has been referred to the Newfoundland and Labrador 4375

/ April 26, 1974 Tape no, 133"1- Page 3 Development Corporation. Now why? What are the reasons for it? We have seen hundreds of thousands of dollars lashed out to sawmiliing operations for every purpose under the sun. I see a $20,000 amount given out for a shipyard operation; $10,000 .for sawmilling; $10,000 for boat building; $10,000, pulp wood harvesting. If the minister is trying to convince us that in pulp wood harvesting the gentleman is not going to S•pend any of his loan on equipment, like timberjacks or anything else, Mr. Chairman, he is sadly deluded, Mr.

Chairman, in some cases the loans are approved; in some cases they are rejected for the very reason that earlier loans or later loans were approved and in some cases the applications are referred to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation~which smacks of merely passing the buck. I There was another application made in 1973 for $25,000, sawmilling, to set up a new sawmill. That was referred to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Maybe the amount was too large, that may be it~ That may be the problem.

We have seen cases where i $20,000 loans have been made; $15,000 loans have been made; $W,OOO appears on the,surface to be the upper limit but one sees exceptions made, Mr. Chairman. One gentleman here for a sawmilling operation industry, $20,000 was the loan made to him. There was no upper limit • of $10;ooo imposed on that gentleman, The $10,000 appears very frequently, When the minister or the Rural Develop~ent Authority sees fit, Mr. Chairman, it does not hesitate to exceed that limit.

Mr, Chairman, just what is going on in the Rural Development Authority/ The minister gets very incensed when anybody raises any objectio_ns to the way it is operating. He gets very angry, Mr, Chairman, the evidence that has been provided by the Member for Hermitage and the evidence which I have produced to the committee today all indicate that either the Rural Development Authority 43"/o

April 26, 1974 Tape no, 1331/- Page is involved in political partisanship or it operates without any guidelines, whimsically and capriciously, giving loans to some people for the very reason that they reject loans on applications from other people, Mr. Chairman. The minister is going to have some job trying to show that there is nothing wrong with the operations of that authority. It has been called a political payoff. The weight of evidence appears to favour that conclusion. Mr. Chairman, what does the authority consist Of'· to begin with?

The authority consists of several ministers: The Rural Development Authority or the board itself consists of several ministers of the crown, politically partisan figure.a, par excellence. I mean the fact that a minister is involved by 4 definition there seems to be a certain amount of political partisanship. Is the minister going to say now that he does not belong to a particular party, partisan, political figure? Now it is possible, Sir, for ministers (I will be the first one to admit it) not to exercise their partisanship when they are involved t1n such an authority.

It is possible and maybe it is even probable. There is certainly a suspicion that perhaps the ministers are 'using the authority for political purposes. MR, MARSHALL: (Inaudible); MR. W. N, ROWE:The Hon. House Leader should not try to divert me, Mr. Chairman. I might get on to .some of his pecc8dilloes, embarrassing little peccadilloes, irrelevant though they may be. Who else is on it? Mr. Chris Pratt, a great painter, a great painter\ A son of Newfoundland,we should all be proud of. You will get some people who will say that his wife is a better painter. 437"/

/ April 2~, 1974 Tape 1335 (Mo,::ning) PK - 1 She is a good painter, I do not know if she is better or not, That is a question of taste and judgement, but he is a good painter. Some say his style of paintinP, it is perha?B as reactionary as his politics, late Twelfth Century. Some peo~le say that it is late ~wenty-Fifth Century - He is a good painter, Mr. Cha1Ttnan. But the whole fact that there is controversy about his style of ?aintin~ means that he is Probably a ~reat painter. He stimulates the imagination of intelli~ent people. He is a great painter. But, Mr.

Chairman, you know, somebody who is good at climbing Mount Everest may not be good at running the Government of F,ngland-;· Charles Lindbergh was great at flying across the Atlantic when he go.t . back there was a hue and cry. "Make him president". said a lot of people. You note a certain amount of .ili9gical thought process there. I think, because a man is good at something does not make him good at something else. Whether Mr. Pratt is a good or a bad µsinter, t happen to think a great painter at least in Canadian terms, I doubt, Sir, whether ··he is particularly excellent at making business decisions.

I do not think that he would be accuse4 of beinp, a great businessman. As a matter of fact, if one'said to Chri7 Pratt that he was a great businessman, he would probably consider it an insult. He does not like that sort of thing. He does not like bourgeois insults flung at him'. He is a good painter but I would suggest, Sir, not particularly suited for this ~articular job. That :Ls.• humble suggestion I fling out for the consideration of honourable members- not particularly suited. Now Bert Meade, I do not know. ls Bert Meade still on the Authority? He is on again? Re took a leave of absence.

He is on the Authority, is~­ he? He was on it before. Bert Meade- nO'l',t what is Bert Meade·? Well, Sir, if you can judge by his own statements,after his trashing down in Hemitage you could only dra~, the conclusion that he is a bitter, fruatrated, defeated Politican. Pe came out on radio and issued statements such as I had never heard from anv defeated nolitician before in mv life. They were 4378

April 26, 1974 Tape 1335 (Mornin_g) PK - 2 venomous, bitter and showed frustration, manifested frustration of that gentlemA_n in an extreme fashion. Now is he the man to have on a Rural Development Authority which is suppose to be nonpartisan? Mr. Chairman, task that auestion in all humility. Mr. Rert 1-!eade - Does Bert Meade know anything about this tyne of an ooeration to start off with? Now I do not say that they should load uo this authority "'ith exoertise, specialized, narrow expertise, They can have a staff to do that.

But,' Sir, if you are going to have people mak:f.n~ considered _iudgements as to who should not get or who should get public money for some narticular purpose, then I would ap,ain Hfunbly suigest that you not have on the hoard a man who has sho~m himself partisan in the extreme, partisan in a way that I would venture to say no member of this House is. Bitter, venomous, nartisanship. lAakes no bones about it, Mr. Chaiman.

Ras the gall,_having been defeated in an election and having uttered his vengeful sple_en out over the media., t_o: come back and get on th:f.s authority again and pretend that he is caoable ment3lly or psychologically or any other way of mak~ng a fair decision. when people are annlying. I would like to see some of the workers who worked. for this party from that ·same are~ of re8id4:?ce as_ Mr .. Bert ?-'eade, ; I would like to see them make an applicati.on, someone who has shown his colours.

I would like to see what Bert Meade has to say in that committee, He may he overruled by the other members, he may be overruled by the mini~ters, but I would like to see what he has to say about it. I have no doubt in my mind. what he would say about it. He would condemn the aonlication out of hand on purelv oartisan groundR. Now those are strong words to say About a man., but I believe them.

If we are tryin~ to protect the vublic money of this province from being spent foolishly, capriciously, politicallv - nolitically I use it in the narrow sense aR narti~an oolitics., if we are trying to prevent that as an opposition I have no choice, Mr. Chairman, but to say that Bert Meade· should not be on the Rural Develon~ent Authority. He should not be on it1 The ministera,a~ Partisan aR they are,were elected by.the neoole 4379 <

,' Anril 26, 1974 Tape 1335 (Morning) PK:.. 3 of Newfoundland, and people have shown ~heir trust in the ministers 1 as · Caridrdate.s running in a di.strict. The Premier, the Leader of the party has shown his trust, Premier elected by the people as well, has shown hi.s trust by annointing these members to the cahinet. These men are 'gentlemen. The honourable minister of the department 1.s a perfect gentleman and I am sure fair-minded. I am sure he does not go out of h:f.s WRY to hurt any livin~ thing, any human being. I Rm sure he does not. He doea not go out of his way to hurt any human beinp,.

But, Sir, I would not say the same thing ahout this other honourahle gentleman, I was talking 8bout, Mr. Meade.· I would not say it at all. He does not have the sanction of the peoule. He tr:f.ed that and failed. He showed hie oartisanship, bitter, venomous partisanship and he finds himself back on this authority. Now I do not trust that type of an authority, Mr. Chairman, to do the ri?ht thing. I do not trust it. L10yd Archibald is the only man with any business experience at all on it, I would suggeRt. I will not say too much about him.

He l1ad the good taste to choose a law firm of which Ia-man inactive member hut to give him legal advice. So that in itself shows that the man has sense. So I will not say too much about that, Mr. Chairman. There is a slight conflict-of-inte~est there. If he were not a client I would probably have a little more to say but there is a conflict-of-interest, I admit to th~ committee. But for these other two ~entlemen, Bert Meade and Chris Pratt.

Chris Pratt 0 a great painter, not.particularly a great businessman,! would not s.!!V or a man ca~able of makin~ godd busitless decisioTis., Be'rt Meade I dismiss out of hand. But, Sir, I sug~est these things do indicate to the committee that there f!'; no wonder that most people, many peo?le beli'eve, most people I would su.P-gest believe that there is nolitics involved right unto the hilt in this Rural llevelopment Authorl.ty.

I sup,gest that the !!ember for Hermita~e is ro.~ht when he says there is political patronage.· If there be no nolitical patronage, Sir, based on the evidence I have given to this committee, then the beat one can say about the RUral Development 4380

April 26, 1974 Tape 1335 (Morning) PK - 4 Authority is that there are no gui<le.lines, nohody knowfl where they stand. There is no scope of the authority. It is done whimsically, capriciously depending on the,condition of the stomach or the head of the particular members who happen to be sitting on a certain morning, as to whether a man gets his application filled or not by the Rural Develovment /..uthority. Amonr, the first aonlicants filed, if one can judge from the list, there were three defeated Tory cand:f.dates in the last election •.

Well that in itself is not necessarily wrong. !tis surprisin~ maybe that they are the first in the line, first to ~et their applications looked after and to ~et money for certain projects. I would not say that any candiOate should be penalized because he hannened to he a candidate and was defeated. I would not say that at all. I would like to see how many defeated Liheral candidates there are with money from the Rural nevelopment Authority. Inaudihle. ~fR. F.OWR W.!-1. I do not know. Perhaps discret.ion in this case is a better part of valour,! do not know. ! will certainly look around. Develo~ment Corporation.

HR. ROWE, W.N. Yes, because the Development Corporation,you see, i is not a political body. AN HON. "EH!lfR: , Inaudible. MR. ROWE, W. N. Well that shows the good sense of the Development Corporation. This is the same Development Corooration that the 'Member ' for Bonavista North, Bonavista South rather,came out and condemned, you know, as beini useless because uerhaps he had some ha-rebrainE!d scheme that was turned dot,,n or was not apnroved on the 4381

/ April 26, 1974 Tape 1336 (morning) approved on the spot like that. MR. CROSBIE: I have never heard him condenm it. MR. W. ROWE: Well, I have heard him condemn it. IB-1 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, he tried to give direction to it and they would not take it. MR. W. ROWE: I heard him condemn it, Mr. Chairman. He said, 11 The Rural Development Authority was greae'.and contrasted with it the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation which was - I do not know what words he used exactly but the impression left was that it was useless. 'Useless ,w Mr.

Chairman, was the impression ·given by the member for Bonavista South. I would say J.J. Hussey had the good sense perhaps to not even apply to this Rural Development Authority. He knew that whatever chance he had of helping his business - I do not know anything about what he has done but he knew that whatever chance he had was with the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporati6n. Anyway, Sir, I would say that the Rural Development Authority 1s not run too well jUdginS from the evidence I have g:J.ven. I believe it is ineptly run or to give it the worse cOloring. it is run in a partisan fashipn.

We have seen.examples where loans have been given - I believe one of my colleagues, a member of this House, may mention the fact where loanS have been given when no perniits for the cutting of timber had even been received from the Department of Forestry and were in fact actually rejeCted. Perhaps the minister can give us some elucidation on that particular situation. We had an example where one man was given a loan and he turned up in Toronto somewhere. I would like to know if that loan ~­ has been paid back. MR. REID: We could not help that. Al Vardy went to the States and we did not get him back. MR. W.

ROWE: Well, if you want· to talk law, then I will say that there is a better_ c~a"!1i:e of get ting a man back from Toronto with the reciprocity agre_emcnts we have throughout the provinces thnn getting a man back from the United States. So, if the minister would like to 4382 \

April 26, 1971, · 1apc 1JJ0 .1.0-, pursue it, then the honourable Minister of Justice, I am sure - MR. REID: We are working on it. MR. W. ROWE: But was there not any security for the loan? MR. REID: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: But not enough to recover the whole.amount. fu't HONOURABLE HEi'--tBER: .They coul~ not ge.t his suitcase baclr., could they? MR. w. ROWE: The minister should not take this so personally. I mean, if he do not want to be a minister of the crown, then he should I resign.

If he is going to be a minister of the crown, let him expect members of this House to raise questions about the operation of his department. One of the questions I raise ~.it may be the only example but even if it is the only example it should be raised and I raise the question of a man who gets a loan from the Rural Development Authority, turns up in Toronto~presumably with the money in his pocket, and· the minister now trying to get - was the loan eve.r given? ~R. REID: He does not get the money in his pocket like that. MR. W. ROWE: Well, then there is no problem.

The Rural Development Authority recovers its money in full? I MR. REID: He 1nust purchase his property. We do give him some money towards his cap-ital that is all. MR, W. ROWE: So, the most he could have run off with is working capital. Well, that is good. I am glad to hear that explana~ion because we made mention of this I believe in the House earlier. I did not hear. I might have been absent; I did not hear the minister explain the situation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. t-m. W. ROWE: Well, 1 am not asking a question now really. I mean, I am making a statement that I have heard this.

I am glad that the minister is finally deigning to give the information to the committee. I am glad to hear that perhaps the Rural Deveiopment Authority will recover the greater amount of this money because they have the security of equipment. I am glad to hear that the man who ran off to the Mainland went off with a smallamount consisting of the working capital rather 4383

/ April 26, 1974 Tape 1336 IB-3 than all the money. I am glad to have 'this information because it is public money we are talking about. I would like, Sir, for the minister w-hen he gets up to speak to tell us what is the status of some of these loans. Now, I believe there was a moratorium on the ·repayment of these loans for a year or so,or was the repayment supposed to start immediately? If a man got $10,000, was he supposed to start repay~ng the next month? The minister might give us that information.

I seem to remember something about a postponement of repayment for a year or so and let the business get established and then they start paying back. The minister could'·'give us that information. What I would like to hear from the minister is how many loans have been paid off or a start made on the repayment. What is the status of the repayment of these many loans that have been given out? He might also give us some information as to how many actual defaults have already been made.

That is, a man goes into business, purchases a piece of equipment, runs it ~or a year or so and then gets out of the business and stops and there is no reasonable possibility of recovery of the loan except for probably the repossession of the equipment and that sort of thing.; He might give us some information on that. He might ~lso ~!ve us some information as to how many , . operations started say a year ago or more,with Rural Development Authority money, how many are still in operation today. I would be interested in getting that information. How many ·are in operation today?

How many have closed down because of lack of money or for other reasons.? How many are still employing? How many of these operations if they are not actually closed down,~ are still employing the extra ~- men that they were presumably required to employ when they got the money from the Rural Development Authority? MR. REID: The honourable gentleman is not_ looking for that today? MR. w. ROWE: No, no. The minister can give us that at some point. because it is important information. The government makes a statement that 20,000 men have been employed or have found jobs from the Rural Development Authority. How 4384

April 26, 1974 . Tape 1336 IB-4 many? AN HONOURABLE MEHBER: 20,000? MR. w. ROWE: No, I am just flinging out a figure. How .. ~Y.does· the Premier say this government has employed? 32,000 men? So, the Premier says not 20,000 but 32,000 men have been employed as a result of the operations of this government. Part of that comes from the Rural Development Authority, say maybe ten per cent or something, 3,000, or 2,000. AN HONOURABLE !-'.EHBER: Around 2,700, MR.

W, ROWE: 2,7001 Now, I would like to know - of the operati.ons started say a year or so ago - it is not fair to talk about ones that started a month ago because they have not even spent their money yet - but of operations that were helped with public funds a year or more ago, how many of them if they were expanded operations" or new operations are still employing the extra men taken on as a reuslt of the loan having been given? Does the minister understand what I am getting at? Yes? That is fine. For example, we have a number of firms. Agricultur~l. farming projects~ forty-eight.

New job created or assisted, sixty­ two. It is the sixty-two I am concerned about. Here is an interesting I one, Mr. Chairman, if I can find it ·here now. Yes, mortuaries. The number of firms' at this particular time - it 'is October 24, 1973 - number of firms, one. Number of jobs created or assisted, point five, one half •• They must have injected half life into the corpse they were dealing with. Half a man got a job. That is very interesting~ The cost of the loan was $10,000. The reason for the loan, a funeral home or a mortuary. The number of jobs created, one half. ~. What half of the man? Left or rihht?

AN HONOURABU: MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. W. ROWE: Oh, I see. So, it is a man .. year they are talking about, is it? Does the job conRist of a man~year, one man employed for one year? Is that a job? Is that the definition of a job? The whole thing about it is, you see, it is like the LIP Programme which the federal government uses. I am not accusing this 4385

/ April 26, 1974 Tape 1336 government of misleading or anything because all government use it. I suppose we used to use it when we were in. To talk about the creation of new jobs - what ·1~ one talking abo_ut? Permanent jobs? What is a permanent job? A year long? Six months long? IB-5 A LIP grant for example might make men work for two months or something or allow men to work for two months. They call it the creation of a job. Well, I would say that that is a very dubious definition at best. What kind.of definition is used in the Rural Development Authority?

What is a job created? .Is it a man-year or is it - ,,.. MR. REID: If you have two men on for six months, usually that is a year. One man job. MR. W. ROWE: That is a job. So, that is a job. So, here we have a half a man working for a full year or one man working for a half a year. What do you think is more probable in the case of a mortuary? A half a man working for one year? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why do you not apply? MR. W. ROWE: I will try. In which case that will be one-and- a-half men working. If McLeao applied we would have five_men working.

Why do~s __ he nof get George· McLean to applyl I ask the minister, Mr. Chairman, because then he could add up. He could put down, number of firms, one; number of n~ __ jobs creat~d, eiihteen or something. Anyway, Sir, I would be interested in getting that kind of informatiqn. How many men are still employed? I realize the minister might not be able to come up with it immediately but if we carry on this debate all today and probably on Monday, we may get the information. What I am ~urprised at is that the department does not keep statistics more or less readily available.

I mean, there are all kinds of computer services in the government now. It should be a matter of having these figures programmed, fed into a computer and they can be - M!_ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. w. ROWE: No. Put it on the Order Paper. The Order Paper has '· nothing very much on it. Put it on the Order Paper. Mr. Chairman, I

April 26, 1974 Tape No, 1331 like the mini.ster to explain anotl}~~ inconsistency. Besides the whimsical, capricious method in which loans are handed out, thrown out, one man gets it for a timberj&ck, another NM - 1 man does not because it is outside the scope of the authority, one ·man gets it for a funeral home, another man does not because it is outside the scope of the authority, I would like the minister to explain another little inconsistency, Are these loans or are they grants? We hear the Premier say that the government will be fortunate if what percentap,e were paid back? AN HON.

MEMBER: Fifty per cent. ,,.,_ MR. WM. ROWE: Fifty per cent was paid back, Now that to me is the stupidest kind of a statement to make when you are using public funds. In other words, everybody who has a loan and who conscientiously wishes to pay the money bacls. suddenly says, "Well good! Jim Smith down the road there is not going to even bother paying it back, why should I?u It puts the premium, Mr. Chairman, on people who are not going to use this money 1n good faith. It gives them an advantage over a person who may cnnscierttiously wish to pay back the money.

I heard the·minister, I did not hear, one of my colleagues I heard the minister make a statement, was it this morning, or somefime recently in which he said a particular example brought up by the ' member for Hermitage was turned down because the field staff or the department considered that he was not capable of paying back the loan? Is that what the minister said? Something along these lines. AN 110:l. 'fE:1BER: Inaudible. MR. ,.r-1. ROWE: Yes, well anyway, here is the minister saying that a loan has been rejected because a loan would probably not be paid back.

Here is the Premier making a statement that we will be lucky if half the loans are paid back. Another example, Mr. Chairman, of the zrosses t kind of inconsistency, inepti.tude and incompetence in the running by the government of this particular progrannne. We have seen no guidelines in the dishing out of the money. We do not know 4387

April 26, 1974 Tape No, 1337 NM if the money is a loan or a grant. If somebody came up to me in my district and said, 11 1 got a loan off the Rural. Development Authority but I am havi~g a hard time. You know the business did not work out too well.

What will I do? 11 I am going to have to say to him. 11 well you are required to pay the ~oney back. 11 2 At the same time knowing in my heart that some~ody else who is not so honest and decent as that particular individual is going to make no effort to pay the loan back, encouraged by statements made by the Premier, encouraged not to live up to his legal ,r , obligation because of statements made by this government and by confusing the issue, by muddying up the waters so that people do not know if they have a loan.

They do not know if they have a grant, they do not know if they are required to pay it back or whether if they do default the Rural Development Authority will just wink at them and say, ''Well do your best now to pay this ·back, 1' give him a pat on the back and send him on his way and that is the end of it. Thia is the kind of a programme it is, Mr. Chairman, This is why the programme _while good in intention, why although the minister may/ have been well intentioned when he started it off., tltis is why this programme is becoming a disaster and it will only , come out, Mr.

Chairman, in the next several months I would say, what a disaster this is, when we see the programme having been in operation for a Couple of. years, maybe even three years, you see how much money has come back, how many people have gone on a free ride at the government's expense and the problem with it. It < is not the people concerned necessarily, the problem with it is the way it is being operated by this government and by the ministers. I do not blame any officials. Officials are trying to do their job within the policies and guidelines set, by the government.

I blame the minister involved for allowing this inconsistency to take place, for allowin~ some people to get loans or grants, whatever they might be, for one thing and other pe?µle not to get loans or ~rants for the 4388

April 26, 1974 Tape No. 1337 NM - 3 same thing,but for different reasons and for the Premier saying one thing in one breath, 11 We do not expect half these to be paid back," and the minister saying something else in another breath, probably now feeling the pressure,where he says that the Authority cannot give a loan to somebody simply because it was determined that he could not pay back this money. I would like to know what kind of a determination was made with respect to these hundreds of persons, Mr. Chairman, as to whether. they could pay them back or not.

I would say that sometimes, Sir, ,,.,,, eersons are rejected because it looks like they cannot repay the money genuinely. I would say that the persons are rejected because genuinely the advice is that they cannot pay back this money, they are not capable of operating a business, that is the advice and they are not capable of creating a cash-flow sufficient to pay of°f these loans.

But I would say that in other cases, judp,ing from the evidence presented by my honourable friend the member for Hemitage, evidence presented by myself and other evidence which will undoubtedly come out durinp this debate, I will say that in some cases in spite of the fact that ofiicials have given adv.ice that someone is not really .. capable of operating a business or should npt be given public money, ' I would say that money has been given out by the authority because somebody is a friend of the administration. I make that bald statement, Mr.

Chairman, which is the same thing as saying that there is political patronage and political payoffs in this. I will be very interested in what the minister has to say about how he can explain convincingly to this House and to the public of Newfoundland that the Rural.Development Authority is not completely off the tracks because I believe it is for the reasons I have given. XR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I htt,ve a few words to say on ·this heading Sir. MR. R0BEPTS: Why not give the minister a chance to reply? 4389

/ April 26, 1975 Tape No 1137 NM - 4 MR. PECKFORD: I want to apologize to the minister on that very point, Mr. Chairman, because I have some pressing things that I have to attend to right after I speak now and this is why I rise at this time. I am sure that the minister will understand that.

Being the member for a rural district· and listening most intently to the comments of the member for Hermitage and the member for Bell Island and now the member for White.Bay South, all of whom represent for the most part rural districts, the whole policy or ,,.._ strategy or attitude of the opposition tow_ards rural development in this province is quite unclear, quite confusing.

To anybody who has had the opportunity over the last day or two to sit in the galleries or as an honourable member to listen to these three spokesmen,it is no wonder they made such a mess or their lack of inaction when they were in power for any rational rural development policy~ Because if one had· to assess the comments made by these three honourable gentlemen tt would be clear that we would not even have the kind of programme that is now in operation and we would not even have the laGk of inaction that perpetrated the previous administratibn for so many years under that great Department of Community and Social Development,for which the member for White Bay South was minister, which,as far as I can detemine. simply administered the resettlement programme.

That was about the only thing that that depart~ent could have to its credit after some several years in operation. AN HON. MEMBER: A quorum call. 4390

April 26, 1974. Tape 1338 (Morning) RH - 1 MR. CHAIR."A:-1: We have a quorum. MR, PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, to continue, I am trying to make the point, develop the point that it is very unclear to me and I 'CJOuld sug~est to many honourable members present as it might be to people in the galleries who have listening to the speeches On this particular head just exactly what the opposition are saying about rural develop­ ment in this Province. Listening to the member for Hermitage one gets one idea.

Listening to the member for Rell Island one gets another and listening to the member for White Bay South one does not know what he is suppose to glean from those Comments that he made. Needless to say, of course, the honourable member for Bell Island· has done a great service to the country, to the Province and has shown without any doubt that as rural development affects his district, it has been extremely successful.

If any great deal of pressure might be put on,. knowing the member for Hermitage like I do 1 having being associated with him lH·.e I have for so many years, knowing the kinds of tactics that the gentleman is capable of using, I do not envy the member for Bell Island position today in this honourable House nor do I for the next cpuple of days because I can sense wi-~h. some degree of certainty that the honourable member for Bell Island will be on the hot seat for several days to come as it affects the other side of the House. So I hope, Mr.

Chairman, that he is courageous enough so that if we are still discussinr. Rural Development next week that he will not have to come out and start attacking the very department that ·he supported a day or two before. I hope and pray that he will stick to his ~uns,as he says himself, "Stick to your J?uns," Sir. Do not have them brain wash the honourable gentleMan now in the next couple of days. Do not have them tell the· hOnouTable 2entleman that he has done a d~sservice to the opposition. AN HONOURA"'LF. MEl·fJlF.R: Inaudihle, ½R, PECKFQRD: Mr. Chairman, what really disturbs me and if I can ~o 4391

April 26, 1974. Tape 1338 (Morninp,) RH - 2 from a lighter note to a More serious one, is this: The honourable mem­ ber for Hermitac,:c boasts publicly and privately too, I suppose~ his .r;reat knowledg,e of rural ~{ewfoundland, the fact that he was President of Grecn·Rny Economic DevclopMent Associc1tion, the fact that he grew up in rural ~Tewfoundlanrl. although if he waTl.t to talk about Rural ~Tcwfoundland I think the honourable meMber for Hermitage spent some of his time in the Grand Falls area which in his own

interpretation of rural tlewfoun<lland Perhaps that would not necessarily fit in. l!e has spent some tiMe in the Green Bay area ..1.nd he boast.s a lot about it. Now, taking that to be true, let us assUMe that he has spe~t a fair amount o.6 time in rural Newfoundland and taking it also as true that he has been involved in various rural development poli¢ies put there.

Yet the honourable member for Hermitage stands up in this honourable House, criticizes everything that this government have tried to do so far for rural development,criticizes the policies that we have started and talks about, "There should be some kind of rural development policy to encompass all the problems of rural development." He at no time during his whole speech or I have not heard any public pFonouncement from him to sµecifically articulate what his Views ate concerning what can be done in a practical way to help alleviate rural problems in this Province. , That is what he has not done.

He has sueceeded in trying to criticize and to provide negative things about the programmes that this adminis't.ration has brought in but he has given no alternatives whatsoever as the opposition spokesman on rural development. As a man who has been in the public_eye in this Province for a number of years and who boasts of the great knowledge that he has of rural <levelopment~ I was absolutely and totally disappointed in the approach and attitude that that honourable gentleman took the other evening concernin~ rural develop~ent in this Province.

If, which he was, the President of the Green Bay Economic Development Association, if he know so much about rural ~ewfoundlan<l, 4392

April 26, 1974. Tape 1338 (~ornin~) RH - 3 well why does he not stand up in this honourable House and give us a lesson. He is an educator too~ Give us a lesson in what we should be doing in rural development. What are the programmes?· What are the points? What are the constructive suggestions that that honourable gentleman has to help alleviate some of the problems in Rural New­ foundland? What are they? Surely nobody in his right mind listening to the honourable member for Hermitage could be impressed when all he has to offer is a negative approach to rural development in this Province.

If he is really going to be creditable, if he is really going to be effect:f.;e, if he is really going to do the job for which he was elected, surely besides Just tearing down what now exists he must try to put something better in its place. If not,he has been a failure, he has been totally ineffective,and that is what the hOnourable member for Hermitage is doing. I think he has a pro?lem. I think I can sense that he has a very great problem and perhaps he may be able to overcome it in the next ten or fifteen years.

That is that he is unsure,it seems to me, of Just what approach he should be taking on the other side. He does not know if he should come out totally. negative, whether he should be partly negative 4-nd partly positive. He does not know how he can enhance his own image within his own caucus. I think he is in a bit ' of a dilemma there and this is partly his problem which is totally unfortunate because once again he might be tryin~ to use the_.position he has now tb enhance his own image over there rather than contribute in a valuable way for the Province through speeches in the House.

I think this is one of his problems. Now he did mention that when this prograrrnne of rural development was announcerl hy this a.dministration that it was supnose<l to be the panacea. for all of the rural development problems in this 'Province. It was suppose to be the end-all an<l be-all. Now where he .i:z:ot that impression I rlo not know because t do not think it was ever annunciated by this _government, hy any representatives of th.is administration that 4393

/ April 26, 1974. Tape 1338 (Morning) RH - 4 this would be the end-all and be-all of rural development in this Province. AN HO~OURABLE MEfffiER: Inaudible, MR, PF.CKFORD: That is true. That is true. As far as rural developMent goes, it 'is·true but sayinr, that is not the same thinr, as saying that it is the end-all and be-A.11 to all of the rural development problems in this Province. Mr. Chairman, it is no problem to bring in a progrannne in rural development that can be better than what came twenty-three years before it;because they did not do anything •.

The honourable member for Hermitage was trying to make the point that we were saying, the administrati~'n_ was saying, 11Here ¥ is "a prop,ramme that is going to eliminate all of our probler.is in rural . Newfoundland. 11 Now where he got that and to be able to make that point in total sincerity and total honesty, I cannot under­ stand it. I could never remenber anybody ever saying that on the. administr8tiOn side. It was a programme that we thought would go some way to improving the lot of rural Newfoundland and to bringing employment opportunities to those places.

That is what it was meant to do and that is what it has done. For the most part, it has been successfµl. If one assess : all .of the evidence on this/programme I think one would have to conclude that it has been successful. I can see with the member for White Bay South that it will take some time yet to see just how su~cessful that will be because in the honotlrable·inemf'er for White Bay South's district and in mine we Have to be careful re?arding the wood supply 31:Id so on there~ with forest industry.

The majority of the ones that have been set up · both in White Bay South and in Green Bay have been successfu.1 anC have a fairly good future. The majority of them do, especially in the Bur- linAton Peninsula Area where you have a fair wood supply. The ma_jority of them have been successful. As far as ?Olitical partisanship as it affects my district or the honourable gentleman's, there has been abso- lutely none, absolutely none. I do not know if he has looked over the names there but if he should look over the names in Middle Arm which is 4394

April 26, 1974. a Liberal stronghold - AN HONOURABLE MEl"',ER: Tape 1338 (Morning) RH - 5 Inaudible. ?-fR. PECKFORD: There were none. I mean I can state Cate~orically with­ out fear df contradiction that as it affects Green Bay district and White Bay South that anbody who came with a sensible proposal to the board got a good hearing and got accepted or rejected.

If one wanted to p,et rip.ht down to brass tacks about it and to look at the number of Liberals verses P.C.s as we know them to be now, therewere far more Liberal applications . approved in Green P,ay than P.C. applications, far more.· ,,.,_ A,.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: Well there was not in the last election. There was not in the last election. I know quite a few in my district, good friends of mine, ~ood Tories who got rejected.

So they were rejected, so be iti So the first point I wanted to clarify was .this business of the administration saying that this kind of programme, this R.D.A. thing was the end-all and be-all to rural problems in this Province. That was never said, never intended. All this prograMme was intended to do was to take a crack at trying to do some~hing ,for rural development. That is all. Here is a Programme. Let us put it in operation. Let us try it. Let us see what it is going to do.

In some cases, perhaps twenty , per cent or twenty-five per cent of the cases it is still unce.rtain whether it is going to work for those applications, for those industries. No doubt, 4395

April 26, 1974 Tape 1339 (Momin~) PK - 1 in the forestry sector of .that Rural Development Progranmie, in the forestry sector of it, sawmilli.np, and pulp wood contractin~, I think it has undoubtedly been a smashinp. success. !t has alleviated unemploy­ ment in White Ray South, in Green Ray DistrJ.ct to a large measure. Where before men had to leave and travel 150 miles to 200 mi.lea for erriployrnent to Millertown somewhe:re, from White Bay South and Green Bay, they can now have employment right on their doorstep. Th{s leads to the business of whether these are temporary or permanent. Mr.

Chairman, I submit, if you have an area where you can see, you have a five year cutting on a block of timber that is crown Ja_nd, five years, ~hat do you call that? Do you call that a perman~nt employment opportunity or do you call it a temporary employment opportunity? This is one of the things on this programme that you have g~t to settle away as far as it goes in forestry, because there are areas where this authority have given loans and that employment opportunity will last for about three years, four years, sometimes five years.

As far as taking it out of the hat~ the fact that a loan was given to somebody Wlo did not even have a permit for forestry, you know this was a mistake perhaps. This was a problem. Sure~ Perhaps I the loan should not be given, hut you cannot condemn a whole programme because of that ope mistake. But I know in the last six months or eight months or so that Forestry and the Department of Rural Development had been working very closely together. I know as it affects Central Newfoundland they have, because I have had inquiries about it and people lv'aitin~ for loans to be approved.

That could not be because we never had a clear indication, the department never had a clear indication from forestry whether the wood t.ras- actually there or not. The honourable Member for Hermita~e 1 whom I am tryin~ to take to task here more than another honourahle meml-er, hecause of his whole ant,roach to it, I doubt very much "t-1hether :... it is too bad the Leader of the Opnosition was not here. I do not know if he were here last night for some of the member's sneech or not but r thinY. he is ROing to be relieved of his position as opoosition critic on rural _dev:e.~~~!!le!it, ! 4396 •

April 26, 1974 Tane 1339 (Morning) PK - 2 really do. It is unfortunate th~t he did not see fit to give a better account of himself. You know, listening to his sneech, you would not say th~t he knew anything ebout rural development. AN HON. MEMllER: MR. PECKFORD: AN nnN. ~®'BER: MR. PECKFORD: Well whv does he fear him? I do not fear him at all. Inaudible. Well, you know, he is one of the ~entleman over there who are making stateiner. ts that have to be challenged. AN HON. MF.'-<R F.•.: MR. PF.CKFOPD: That is why he is afraid of him.

Not afraid at all! ...... ''Any programme,'' he says, "must addreS~ itself to all the r>rohlem$ of rural develonmenL" I say, Mr. Chairman, that a.!=! a department that is res~onsible for rural development it must address itself to a11 the problems in rural development. But a programme that is initiated liVe the Rural Development Authority Programme, it is wrong to sup.~est that one oolicy or one programme should address itself to all the oroblems,of rural Newfoundland. ~That you need under that department surely, Mr.

Chairman, I submit are a number of Programmes, a general overall policy for the de?artment and under it a number of different orogranrrnes to addre~s themselves to different·and unique problems that I exist throughout rural Newfoundland. You cannot have an ad hoc proP,ramme which i.s going to cater to a jl.iven problem here or another different nroblem there. It just would not work. AN HON. '!RMBF.R: Inaudible. MR. PF.CKFORD: Yes, he did say· it .. He did so say it. Get the Hansard. He ·Pill gee he. did. That is what he said. MR, SN'-!O~TS: On a po1nt of-order.

If the ~ember for Green Hay is going to quote me 1 sup.gest that he do so accurately. What I said on that subject is that any overall ~overnment pro~ramme which would seek to emPhaaize the development of rural Newfoundland must take into account th~ t:Otal problem of rural Newfoundland. Does he _disagree with that, ~r. Chairman? Jo!!!. PFCKFORD: No, Mr. Chairman,. I do not disagree w:f.th that:. 4397 •

/ April 26 •. 1974 Tape 1339 (1-!ornini>;) PK - 3 MR, SI"!-IONS: Inaudihle, MR. PECKFORD: Because he was connecting it up with the Rural Development Authority Programme, at the same time. That is what he·was doing. He was conn~cting it up you see, he was trying to accuse - because it was only the Rural Development Authority Programme was doing anything for rural Newfoundland. Then he was condemning it because it was not takinr, in all of the ?roblems of it. That was the impression left, the distinct impression left on that.

All the opposition spokesmen on this thing, except the honourable Member for White '6ay South who did attefl11)t as I thought to do s~r;· the honourable Member for Hennitap,e especially did not in his overall criticism of the Rural Development Programme give any facts nor figures to try and prove what he was talking about. It was all vague and a general way of talking about rural development in this Province. There was nothing temporary. ~They are in a good many places,'' for instance,"johs temoora-ry in a good many µlaces, in a fair number of places.

You know, there are a fair number of jobs that are temporary in this Rural Develooment Authority Programme. 11 So what kind of a statement is that. You know I do not think it holds too much. JA lot of disillusionment around the province because of rural development, because of the programmes of this department. 11 These are pretty general, vague comments to make about a government pro~rarmne. What do they Rhow? What do they prove? "A lot of disilluRionment around the ?rovinc~ about the Rural nevelooment Authority Programme or about the Rural nevelooment De1>artment. '' It ts my opinion, 'fr.

Chairm~n, that if there is one denartment in this government where there.is very little disillusionment about government policy is in this deoartment. It is the exact opposite. It ie the .antithesis of what the honourable Member for Hermita~e was tryin~ to contend. There is absolutely none. I have been in - AN PON, 1"1'::-'BFR: Inaudible, MR, PEEKFORD: Yes, right, in his offshore stuff, 4398

A?ril 26, 1974 Ta?e 1]39 e,iorning) PK - 4 You know, this is one department in the various di~tricts that ' I hAve been to in this prov1nce that has reached out its influence through its'fieldworkers and so on and have let the·word- go out throu~h all the different comm.unities with its fieldmen, just exactly what the oolicy is in this department. It is one of the more effective det>artinent~ then, havi.ng so many staff that it can reach into all the rural areas out around. You know, I know the fieldmen out in ·central Newfoundland.

A lot of them are in several communities every week handling applications and explaining what the policy of that department is. . .... You-J<.11ciw, rather than there being any disillusionment I think it is the only one of the few departments, because of its very nature of course, that actually, exolicitly exnlains to the people what is going on in that ~e-p.ar_tment and in what way this department can helo them. So rather than it being a disillusionment, it is anything but, it is just the op1'osite. The other point, Mr.

Chairman, that must be challenged is the point that the opposition are saying that we are dragging - he used the word "drag''- that we are dragging people into this programme, -t-·hat we are going out and twi~ting some honest citizen out there to come in and get I a loan from us, so we can nail him when ·he ~Till not be able to pay for it.

Dragging them· into this programme -\ dragging • T_his scheme that peonle have been dragged into•~~~~ the W?!.d~ that the honourable Memher for Hermitagt; used, "Dragged into." These aie irresponsible statements by a member of the opnosition. !!The,- were dragged into this scheme." Nobody was dragged into the Rural nevelopment Authority scheme and the honourable Member for Hermitage knows it. Nobody was dragged into it. It was not fair for h1.m to say that they were. It :f.s a total misrepresent­ ation of the facts.

If there be a gent1eman out in Gre~n Bay or in Hermitage or anywhere else who wants a loan, he goes and he talks to the fieldmen and he says, "Hav r rnake application for a loan?" He knows better than that. He knows that is not true. When he was President of the Green Bay Economic Development Association, he knows that his 4399

/ April 26, 1974 Tape 1339 (Mornin~) PK. - 5 executive secretary, ~r. Budgell out there,would assist gentlemen from down around Green Bay to come up to the Chalet when a fieldman arrived to help make out an application. Nobody was dragged into the programme, That is not fair. That•is unfair of him to say that. He knows it is wrong. Nobody was dra~~ed into this programme. Whether it be Rood or whether it be bad or whether it be indifferent or anything else, nobody was dragged into it. He should not say it, because it is unfair. AN RON, ME!-IBER: Shame on him.! MR.

PtCKFORD: 1 am the first to a~ree that there·are aspects of this ?rogramme, as there are aspects of all programmes regardless,in R~ral Devel?'p~ent .. or in Industrial Development or anything else,that ?re wrong, that have not worked out. There are parts of this nrogramme that have not Jpanned out, in this department. There al~~ys wiJ.;I,, be •. but¥-• __ _ overall and on balance - there is no overall and on balance and that is what we got tn look at,is it not, Mr. Chairman? The fact that we have attempted to try and grapple with some of the problems of rural Newfoundland, that is what we are doing.

It has not been a smashing success to the.extent that is it.~he.end all and be all to all of our problems in rural Newfoundland. AN l'ON. MEMBER: Inaudible. I MR. PECKFORD: But· in constrast to what came before it, if one wants to, you know, con~rast it with that, in constrast to the academic concoctions that were made by high salaried people down in the nenartment of Community and Social Development for five or six years, this ivory tower stuff that remained closeted away somewhere and never saw itself translated into action, what we have done over the last tHo years has been a decided imnrovement.

That is the point. Pas it been an imnrovernent or has it not? Have we proRre$sed or have we not In ~ural Development? That is the problem. I say and I su~gest, Mr. Chairman, sincerely,that it has been an improvement. ts there room for more improvement? Lots of room for more imnrovement. This is one nlace ,mere I believe that;that the different develonment associations can have~ lot more innut, that in some areas like on the Gr~at Northern Peninsula and do-wn perha9s in Bay D'F.spoir - 4400

April 26, 1974 Tape no, 1340 Pagel - MW The Ray d'Espoir problem is not the same as the problem in the Communit"y of Hermitage· or the same problems that one has in Francois or MacCallum. The problef['f.,that I have in King's Point, Rattling Brook in the Green Bay District are not the same problems that I have in Nipper's Harbour and in Shoe Cove as far as rural development goes. It is different altogether. I think it is to a large extent a responsibility or an obligation upon a lot of these development associations. AN HON. ME~1BER: A quorum call. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, to continue; the whole point of anybody ,,.,_ trying to contend that people were dragged into this scheme over their own views Or discretion is a completely untrue statement. This has not been the case and I do not think for one minute that it will ever be the case regardless of what party is in power. It is a programme that people can come to with their applications and with their problems to try to get some assistance to employ several people in whatever industry they are interested in, It has nothing to do with people being dragged into it - there is no intention.

The other point I was trying to make on the overall Rural Development scheme· as it.affects this province was that I think that the various development assdciations in the vario~s areas have a responsibility end an obligation to try to bring to the attention of the members in their districts and to the De-partmen·t of Rural Development the kinds of problems that are perhaps unique to that area and that need to have some injections of funds in, through this programme or perhaps through other programmes like that. I think a-.lot of work could be done there. This Rural District Council that Mr.

Curran is head over, • I suppose has had some input in this direction already, getting together all the ideas from all the development associations and then presenting thet11 to the department. I do not think it is just the obligation on government to try to identify, although that is there, the problems that exist in the various area. It is also an obligation on the local level for those organizations that do get funding fr0n1 the government to come across with ideas that they think are valuable for the development in 4401

April 26, 1974 Tape no. 1340 Page 2 that particular area. As I suggested, it varies from one area to another as to exactly what can be done. Some areas will be forestry and other areas will be fishing and so on. Perhaps one point that the Hon.

Meml:ter for Hermitage mentioned that was a good one and I do not think we should lose· eight of it,and that is the fact that our definition of rural development, when we are talking about rural development, we are also talking as the federal government does on various occasions about infrastructure, about road conditions and about water and sewerage because in many cases they go hand in hand; Which comes first?

Should the job opportunities come first?(Providing a lot of tax dollars and then your water and sewerage and your better road connections.) Does one develop the in,rastructure and get water and sewerage in there and a good road connection which would thereby attract employment opportunities? Which comes first? Is it the chicken or the egg?

Unquestionably, talking about Rural Newfoundland and its development, one cannot lose sight of the fact that aa far as services are concerned, there is a great responsibility on government to provide these services. /Mr• Chairman, what we have been doing over the last couple of years (I think it has worked to a large extent in many places) . . is that we have brought job opportunities nearer to home,like_ for instance in my area.

This ha~ put the need on government all the more now that this•place has shown that it is viable, that it is going to continue to exist, that it is growing and more services have to be provided in order to - there is a greater pressure on government to provide services for that area because it has ninety-five or ninety-eight ~ per cent employment as opposed to a lot of people getting welfare assistance or what have you. Mr. Chairman, there are three other points before I sit down. The Hon. Member for Hemitage mentioned that there was no overall aim or objective in the Department of Rural Development. I 4402

April 26, 1974 Tape no. 1340 Page 3 dismiss that out-of-hand as completely without any validity at all. I think he knows better. '1 The fact that the Civil servants are dding a good job is a reflection upon this administration and upon its wisdom in hiring the right kinds of people to do the various jobs in that department.'' It is their job by definition to go ahead and pursue the policy that was articulated by the minister and by the cabinet.

That is what the civil servants are for. •We are glad to hear that the civil•servants who work in the Department , .... of Rural Development are doing a g»eat job in their field and so they should, That is what they are getting paid for,and.they are following through on the policy as articulated by the minis~er. Mr. Chairman, as other'members on this side have said, it is unfair. I think the member mentioned that the Minister of Rural Development, because he has a business of his own, private business, does not have the time to spend at his job. He can dismiss that out-of-hand.

Any ordinary individual who has ever met the Hon. Member for Trinity South, the Minister of Rural Development, knows that he is·a sin~ere and hard-working individual and that he understands/ rural Newfoundland as well as anybody who sits in: this honourable House. He works hard and he can talk with the ordinary people of this province. To try to throw a red herring into the debate by suggesting that because the honourable minister has a private 'business, he is npt _doing justice to his department, can be dismissed by any ordinary individual who has had anything to do with the Department of Rural Development.

I do not -know to do it; Anybody who knows the honourable minister knows the difference of that. He understands rural Newfoundland. There are aims and objectives in that department and the Minister of Rural Development has knowledge of rural Newfoundland and can easily articulate it where it is needed to be done. Mr. Chairman, the unfortunate part about this whole debate is that we should have had more constructive suggestions on 4403

,' April 26, 1974 Tape no. 1340 Page 4 what other ways, what other facets of rural Newfoundland can government get involved in that would be advar.tageous for that area, that would be advantageous for the province. To just get up and flatly tun1 down and criticize and downgrade everything that a government has done over the past eighteen months might be of some consequence, might enhance some individuals and make them feel good.

In the last analysis, if we are elected to be sincere, dedicated politicians, to try to help our areas,there is an obligation on us to also bring up - if we on the one hand boast of our , ..... knowledge of rural Newfoundland, theri ·on the other hand we must be willing to put that to· the tlest and contribute in a constructive way so that the Minister of Rural Development and people on this side of the House as well as on the other side will feel that they have some other suggestions that perhaps could be tried in that department to make rural Newfoundland even better than it has been in the last couple of years.

MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I would be able to class myself as a fair representative of this province if I did not lend support' to the work that has been done by the Department of Rural DevelopJent in its ~hort tenu~e. 4404 ,

April 26, 1974 Tape 1341 (morning} IB-1 Nevcr,in my estimation, in the history of this province. have we had a minister who was so well suited to the task before him as the present minister of that department; Rural Development, a man who has been in touch daily, all ·his life, with rural Newfoundland and who showed that he could develop a business on his own

whereas lots of people under the same circumstances would have failed. He is well qualified to know who is capable of receiving or not receiving help from his department. In addition to that he has built up around him one of the greatest staffs that any department of this government has ever,had, . one of the most capabl~ and likable deputy uiinisters that can, find and right down the line. I know most of them personally. It saddens me to see that people criticize such a staff and such a dep_artment just for the sake of criticism alone.

They think they are making headway but they definitely are not, not in this House or with their constituents. This department fills a need that was echoed by our people for so many years under the former administration or lack of administration as one wishes to call it. How many times have we all heard people say, "Well, if a fellow could only get a bit of money from a government I department to help him to start a little sawmill, a hennery or·some other little sifuple thing", something that he knew how to do but did not have the capital to start it with. ,All one could hear was, 11 Well, yes.

Surel 1f I were like Mr. Munroe or if were like Mr. Hazen Russell or somebody who had a few million dollars, I would get millions more from the government we have 1~ office today." Today, thanks to the Department of Rural Development, that picture is changed. Thousands of people who never had the opportunity of helping themselves before, have been helped by this department. We have been criticized to the extent that loans have been politically motivated and that sort of thing, This is absolutely bunkum.. I would go so far as to say that after the next election 4400 ;

/ .April 26, 1974 Tape 1341 IB-2 we will give loans to the nine defeated Liberal members over there. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. EVA.1S: He may need one. I was glad to heat" the member from Bell Island come out last night in support of the Rural Development Department. After all, it shows that there is some good in the worst of us. I do not know what he is leading up to, probably looking for a loan himself, maybe to dig a tunnel across the Tickle. Remember he was going to dig one across the Straits of Belle Isle a few years _ago and he could only get one shove~ at that time.

Now, we have heard a lot of flak from the other side.,,.,. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member will hear more, · MR. EVANS: I hope it will be more constructive. Considering that there have been grants made.to St. John's which is not class£d as a.rural area, I wonder have the people who have been.making these criticisms considered the fact that if one took our total population here in Newfoundland, it would not make an urban,area rather for a city like Montreal or Toronto. The whole of Newfowidland is a rural area, including St. John's itself.

We hav~ not had many requests from my district, as I said in the past, bpcause on that coast,in particular under the former administration, people figured well, there was no use to apply to the government 'for anything. "We do not get it anyway." ·There have been a few applications made. I do not know whether they were from, Liberals gr Conservatives. I did not care,but where they were warranted, the loans or grants were made. I am sure that they will be paid off in time.

As for most of the loans that are required in my district, they are in connection with the fishery and they are secured from the Fisheries Loan Board. I may add right now that there have been considerably more loans made from the Fisheries Loan Board in Burgeo, La Polle than ever ·before-. Now, I do not intend to take up too much time because there are other speakers here as well. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Thank God for small blessings I 4406 I

April 26, 1974 Tape 1341 IB-3 MR. EVANS: Oh, he will get them. That is all he is going to get, small ones. I understand that there was only one ma'j or application turned.down this year from the Rural Development Board. I heard that they received an application from the Liberal Association for funds to finance the Liberal Leadership Convention this fall. No doubt they must have heard of the dark horse that was in the race, that Pierre Elliott Trudeau will be out of a job before too long. _Can ~n~ .. -.i~gine Pierre an?

Margaret and the two Christmas babies coming in joining hands with Baby Rodger and Baby Eddy, the bilingual .,, . gurgling and cooing. It would sweep the province. The only objection that I can see will be that great defender against the former deapots, the Member for Bell Island. He said, 11 We will fight this to the bitter end, even to the last drug store on Bell Island." Mr.

Chairman, I do not, as l say, intent to dwell on this subject too long but I know everyone who has any interest in the people of our province - as I say you can class it all in the strict sense of the word as a rural province - cannot but be more than plea~ed with the work that has been done by this department. I Anyone who gets up in this House and states otherwise is going it for a political' expediency. As I stated earlier, he is not going to do himself any good either in this House or on the outside.

I trust that our worthy minister may continue in the work that he has started and I am sur~ that he will go on and do greater and greater things as the time elapses. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I would like to answer a few questions that the member from White Bay South mentioned h_ere. First thing, I would like to let the member know that Rural Development Authority loans are $10,000. We have several people who may come in for loans, like timberjacks and various other things. They are looking for $36,000 or $40,000.

I feel sure that the $36,000 rejection is not because that we have never helped or would not help a certain individual. The point 1s that we have helped dozens of people to 4407

April 26, 1974 Tape 1341 IB-4 purchase timberjacks. Our loan is $10,000 and one thing we must have is first mortgage on any equipnient that we let out. Now, the member.f.s mention about a back-hoe was turned down. Heavy equipment - in some cases we have helped in areas where if there werea back-hoe needed in the community and work was available, we certainly would help that individual. I am sure that person was not turned down because of political reasons. We hate to put out loans in certain area& where natural enough 4408

April 26, 1971, Tape No, 1342 NM - 1 we are goin)2; to put the next man out of business because rural development gave out an interest-free loan. We will help in various types of industries, several industries which probably in the minds of various people we should nevei help but in areas where there is need we will help any industry or any little viable thing that will employ a number of people and especially if the need is there. In a great many cases we have helped electric appliances, we have helped bakeries, we have helped garages, we have helped shops. MR. N1S._.i\p.Y: Only twelve members.

Could we have a quorum call, Sir? YR. CHAIR~'AN' em.. STAGG): I think we have a quorum. Ring the bells, MR. REID: Do we have a quorum? I was saying, Mr. Chairman, we have also helped truck body-building and I cannot see anything wrong when a certain person is icing to use a number of people to build truck bodies when before some of the truck body-building places that we helped,we had to import all these truck bodies. I think we have somewhere around seventy-five per-cent today of our truck bodies being bUilt here in Newfoundland. Itiwas mentioned that we were only supposed to pay back fifty per cent on our loans.

There has not been a loan gone out of our department that the person who received tftat loan did not realize that he was supposed to pay back every single dollar, every dollar he is supposed to pay• back on that loan and very soon we will be introducing a one per cent interest after thirty days on these loans. I think the r.iemher for White Bay mentioned r !-m. \·~1. P.O~•:E: Is that one per cent a month? '<!> • 'IBID : A ~onth, yes. I think the member for White Bay mentioned how tr.any were reposse':3sed.

Did he ask that question j1·at now, how many were - We had one death and we repossessed that and we have reposse~sed one piece of equipment up to date. t think there is something we s.hould know and probably the members of the opposition 4409

,' April 26, 1974 Tape No. 1342 .mt - 2 should know' and I wish sometimes they would come down in our office, my office or the deputy minister's office,and we will certainly give them all the literature and all the information we c'an possibly give them.

Speaking of rer,ulations, the basic re7,ulations of Rural Development Authority Loans, types of b·usiness and industry qualifying for assistance, all applicants who are already engaged or_ planning to establish or expand on the foll(?wing types of industries may be e.ligible for as'Sistance - resource based industries, ,,.,_ secondary manufacturing service industries concerned,essential to the community and are not available without reasonable access, I hope I have answered most of the questions of the member for White Bay. MR. SI?-1MONS: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to make a few additional comments under this head before we move on. Obviously on two or three points~judging from the feed-back I have been getting obviously on a couple of points,I did not make myself sufficiently clear so I shall attempt to do so once again. I thought in speaking on the matter last night I had stat.ed quite clearly that I believe at the beginning, as does the tlember for White _Bay South, that this programme had some potential and that it afterwards got off the track. At no time have I said, Mr.

Chairman, nor do I intend to say nor do I believe, .at no time have I said that the whole programme was wron'g. I have seen a ~umber of attempts this morning to put words in my mouth which ~ere not there. I have not at any time, nor do I condemn the whole programme. I have never said that,because I do not believe it. I do believe, Mr. Chairman, and before I go on Mr. Chairman, I listened with complete attention to the member for Burgeo and I would like.him to do the same for me. I am getting a little sick and tired of his interjections, intelligent as they are. AN HON. MEl-OlER: Inaudible, MR.

SIMMONS: I have not, Mr. Chairman, at any time condemned the whole programme. I believe in a progrannne for the development of 4410

April 26, 1974 Tape No. 1342 NM - 3 rural Newfoundland. I have said though that this pYogratmne is badly off the tracks and I have given some of ~y reasons, some suggestions. In replying to some of the items I mentioned, that my contribution here has been a rather vague generalization, that what I have said is rather general and without supporting docmnentation, I do not know where those members were, Mr. Chaiman, when I first addressed myself to rural development a month or so ago in this House. At that time I gave a lot of statistics. Statistics ,,.._ which, to the best of my knowledge,: are accurate.

They were prepared for me by someone else in I hope a dispassionate fashion. I told the individual what it was I wanted analyzed and that person proceeded to analyze it. I cannot vouche for every point of every percentage in the document but I can say that I have enough faith in the individual who prepared the percentages and the breakdowns for me that the conclusions reflected, and I reported all of these in the House at that time, they are far from vague, they are very much to the point. They give you pe~centages. They give you figures as they apply to every district in this province.

I do not thfnk that that can be construed as being very vague at all. 4411

,' April 26, 1974 Tape 1343 (Morning) PK - 1 Last night I gave examples. Of course, I am sure the minister or the other members who have accused me of vagueness on this point, I am sure they would not want me to stand and start giving names. I offered last night in my comments to speak to the minister privately and give him the names. He has not taken me up on the offer yet but I repeat the offer, if he should want the nam~s, I am interested in getting th:f.s programme on the t~ackE:. I have at no time saidi forget the programme, it is a dead loss, therefore let us wipe it out. I have at no time said that.

I made passionate pleas,! hope. the last time I spoke, a month or so ago and last night, ·that something be done,,now to salvage this programme. I believe that alone, Mr. Chairman, is evidence that I personally believe in the programme. I believe that we need this kind of programme. I do not believe that we need to administet it in this kind of way •. That is the message we have been trying to get through to government members. That point has not be responded to at all. Mr.

Chairman, in listening to the minister a moment ago, he indicated that it is his understanding that every cent is to be paid back under these Rurai p~velopment Authority Loans. I am glad to hear him say that because as I read the en~b_ling legislation, I understand i that is what should be the case, that every cent ought to be paid back in proper time, Not only did he say that but he indicated that he was of the belief that all those who accepted or received a loan from RDA were individqall.y of the understanding that they were to pay hack every cent that they were getting. That is fair game.

That is as it should be, That is the standard understanding of a loan. That is what the legislation provides for. Rut that is not what the Premier is saying, ~r. Chairman. The Premier,in his speech in Montreal, is saying something quite different. I call upon the Premier or the M~nister of Rural Development to clarify this matter, Did the Premier say something? Was it a slip of tongue, in Montreal, on Fe~ruacy 2F, 19737 Did he mean what he said? Was he 4412

April 26, 1974 Tape 1343 (Morning) PK .:. 2 reflecting or stating just a personal opinion or an off-the-cuff remark that he was sorry for after? What is the status of the statement which he made? Was he speaking for the government? Was he wondering out loud? What was h.e doing?

Will he indicate to the Rouse whether that is government policy 9 that there is not going to be any.real crusading effort to collect the money or will he speak to his Minister of Rural Development and get some consensus on this point so that people aspiring to get involved in private enterprise with the help of RDA.can know where they stand 7 Because I repeat the point that I made two or· three times,.,,Mr. Chairman, that there are people, responsible people who think twice before they incu_r personal debt. They would make a different decision insofar as g·oing after a loan or not going after a loan.

They would make a different decision, !Ir, Chairman, if they knew that they might not have to pay back this loan. They would make quite a different decision, if they knew that the policing of it was not going to be very overt or very crusading.

I believe that point needs clarification and I call upon the minister or the Premier who made the statement in Montreal, in contradition -in violation of the legislation on this subject, he makes hie statement - ! call upon him, the Premier,or the minister to I clarify this matter so that we know Where we stand and where the peoPle involve stand, in, terms of PDA loan collection·procedures and the degree to which theSe procedures and the legislation are to be enforced. Befo~e ~oing on, Mr.

Chairman, I think in the light of the connotations . that ha'Vf' been atta.ched to some of the thin~s that I have said, attached by the Member for Bonavista South in particular, the insinuation that somehow I have something personal against the Ministe~. of Rural Development, of course that is not the case at all. I believe we must be in this House mature enough to stand and state our feelings on suhjects without casting aspersions on person's motives. I certainly do not have anything personal against the ~inister or Rural Development. 4413

,' April 26, 1974 Tape 1343 (Morning) PK - 3 I do not know the gentleman; I have hnd occasion to meet him. In my first couple of meetings with him before I got involved in elections, politics, I found the meetings to he quite cordial~y. t indicated last night that we had a meeting at Springdale Junction in the Information Chalet out there,owned by the Green Ray Economic nevelopment Association. We had a quiet cordial meeting then. I had• met him three or four times perhaps at the most before coming into elections, politics and our meetings were quite cordial.

So I have nothing personal against him. ! have tried in the past couple of months to strike up c6nversations with.him, I believe on three occasions. I must report they have not been particularly successful attempts to engage in conversation with him. The latest being a night or so ago at the Holiday Inn and on another occasion being just after I had delivered myself of some connnents on rural· dev~~opment ~ix weeks ago in this HoUse.· My attempts'" to e_!lgage 1n persOI\al cOnversat.iOn with him _!lave not been particularly successful but let the record show on all two or three ocassions I initiated the attempt.

That is the best I can do. Mr. Chairman, some of the members got all excited about this bdsiness of arm-twisting~ Am-twist~ng, well I used the expreseion last night. I was ndt using. a complete scri?t so I cannot repeat verbatim at this moment as exacting what I said. But I believe I recall reasonably well the context in which I used the term "Arm-twisting". Mr. Chai-rman,_ f1;st of all let_ me S_tand by that statement of last night concerning ann-~wisting. I said I have knowledge of examples on this very point.

Now again I do not think I have to keep repeating to the committee that I am not going to give names here. I am j.ust not going to give names. I will give names privately except where I would be violatin~ confidences, I will give names privately to the minister or to his officials on the subjects concerned. The one I am going to mention is certainly an example that can only be construed as arm-twisting. ~r. Chaiman, I am not fabricating this. This is a case history that has bMn passed on to me - not first hand but second hand. My sources is a good one. His source ,is the individual inV'olved. So t 4414

April 26, 1974 Tape 1343 (Morning) PK - 4 get it second hand from the individual who I maintain :was the victim of some·arm-twisting on the subject. Then I will give you the example as follows: I should perhaps

preamble by saying that t~e government, the department, the RDA I ought to say,has to maintain some kind of cre.cHtibi.lity in terms of its rate of collection, it has to demonstrate to itself or to whoever that it is collecting money fr9m,those who have loans. Keeping that in mind and keeping in mind my charge about arm • twisting - how is this for an example. I know of a man who had a loan from RDA, a $6,000 loan.

He went to RDA or some official or politican involved and said, "Look I want another $4,000.u That is a reaso~t!-ble request de?ending on, I cannot adjudiCate the circumstances yo~ will have to look at the application,· of course, but in terms of the legislation providing for loans up to $10,000, he was not asking for anything out of the ordinary. He had $6,000, he was looking for another $4,000.

Apparently he had decided to incur some additional expenditures to enable him to expand the enterprise after,sometime sebsequent to getting his first loan of $6,000 so he went and said, "I want to get another $4,000. 11 The deal that was offered to him was this; You give us $1,000 and we ,,:tll give you $5,000, AN HON. "E"JlfR: (Inaudible) i MR. STil'MONS: It hapr,ened, Mr. Chairman. HYou giv.e. us .$1,"noo and we will glve you $5,000.' Now let us do some arithmetic.

He had $6,000, { .. . . - he wanted $4,000, which would make $.10,000, But the problem was, Mr, Chairman, he had not paid back any, not one cent of that $6,000. AN HON, MEXBF.R: !-fR. SP.~-!O~lS: This fellow will go mad, Not one cent. So to show the - Mr. Chaiman, the minister has, he must be even recognizing this case as I am talking about it. Let us not have him try and put me on. He knows the example. I.et him go and find the information. Re knows more about the detailed example than I do. !IB.

REID: I never heard of the example before. !-'lL SP"'.'f)~rn: Perhans that is an example of how closely bE! is involved in the administration of his department. MR. REin: Inaudible. MR, ~OO~F.S: He ha• a duty as a public servant, 4415

,' April 26, 1974 Tape 1343 (Morning) PK - 5 MR. SJYMONS: Pardon? MR. MOORES: He has got a duty as a public eervant. AN HON. MPIBER: Why does he not go to the Department of Health. MR, SI!,1J,!ONS: I have already indicated, Mr, Chairman, that r have tried to strike up a couple of convErsations with the minister and not with much success. I am not going to pus~ myself. , r', ' 4416

April 26, 1974. Tape 1344 (Mernin~) RH - 1 MR. SHU!ONS: So. It is not nonsense. Mr. Chairman, - HR. REID: ~r. Chairman, on a point of order. I