Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 41B (31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-41b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 17, 1979 , 1'ime: 8:00 p.m . ... , . SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. Resolution 10 Item 5. (a)(1)- pass; the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, when we were discussing this item this afternoon, the minister made sc;me comments about the logic of relocating the regional headquarters of his department from Beausejour to Steinbach and, of course, so far he hasn't delivered the logic in the comments that he has made to this committee.

I would suggest to him that what he should do tomorrow is read Hansard to find out how illogical he was, and not only illogical, but contradictory, Mr. Chairman, because one of his main excuses was that there was some short-fall in delivery of services in the extreme southeast corner of the province, and if the head office was in a different position, that wouldn't occur . Well, Mr. Chairman, the parallel to that would be, that it would likely occur at the ther end, because if the head office means the difference, then it means that the closer the head ffice , the less possibility of that occurring.

So he has destroyed his own argument with that kind f nonsense , Mr. Chairman. If the minister feels strongly that he has a commitment to make to t e people of Steinbach, Mr. Chairman, that may emanate from the last election campaign or whatever, you know, I think he should be bold enough to say so. I asked him this afternoon, whether he had presented to him a staff submission who have been functioning out of Beausejour for the last several years; a submission suggesting that there be a relocation.

I would ask him again whether - 1 he has a submission from staff asking him that he relocate the regional headquarters of the ~ Department of Agriculture from Beausejour to Steinbach. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I referred in the discussions this afternoon that there had been discussions carried out within the department, within the administrative staff. I again go back to the initial study , the initial report on regionalization of the department and follow up to that, discussions with the senior staff and I think I've clarified for the member all I have to .

I don't think tl1ere is any more that I can add at this particular point. As I've said , consideration is being given to it and in fact , finalization of any decision has not been made, but is certainly being considered . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I repeat the question. Did he receive a specific recommendation from his staff, who are responsible and working in the eastern region, that the headquarters of that region be relocated? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, again I go back to say that it was discussed at senior management level within the department , no submission, but as far as the decision to relocate a regional office, ~ tl1at comes from discussing with agricultural people, with staff at senior level and that's the consideration that has to be given, and I don't think I can clarify it any more. MR. USKIW: 1 specifically asked the Minister whether the staff who is responsible for the administration of the eastern region - whether they have submitted a presentation to the Minister .,. asking that they be relocated? I don't mean people that are not there.

I mean people who have the responsibility of delivering the department's program in the eastern region - did they ask the Minister for a relocation of the head office? .. .. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it was discussed with the Regional Director. MR. USKIW: I presume it was discussed. My question is, was it recommended by the Regional Director that there be a relocation from Beausejour to Steinbach? MR. DOWNEY: Again, Mr. Chairman, it was discussed with the Regional Director . 2669

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , obviously the Minister cannot now substantiate that there is logic to ; what he is doing . Obviously , he can 't, and he rests on the fact that he believes , or wants to believe , that initially , when the decision was made to establ ish the r egions and to dec ide on the central offices in each region , th at the re was a recommenda tion based on what he is now proposing to do. Well, I want him to know, Mr.

Chairman , that the staff of the Department of Agriculture were not commissioned by the gove rnment to determine , or to recommend , the regional centres to the government. I want him to know that. Secondly , I want him to know , if he doesn 't have a copy of the repor t, I presume he has, I have one here , where in there was not a unanimous position on the part of staff on the recommendatio n that they were not asked to present. Two very relevant points, Mr. Chairman . Because the decentralization policy was a Cabinet policy , a government decis ion.

Staff were told that that would be a government decis ion as to where the centres are going to be located. A MEMBER: I believe that. MR. USKIW: Yes, that is correct , absolutely . We decided to put one in Portage Ia Prairie , too. " -(Interjections)- Abso lutely. MR. CHAIRMAN: Orde r, order . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , the Member for .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Orde r please. Could we have one speaker at a time . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , the Member for Portage would like to have us believe -(Interjection)- ''.,. would like us to believe , Mr. Chai rman, that the staff shouldn 't be told what they must do.

That 's what he would like us to believe . How much nonsense is that , Mr. Chairman ? The Member for Portage would hire staff that would tell him what to do? Mr. Chairman , I don 't believe it. A MEMBER: No, but you told them exactly what they had to say. You know that. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , with respec t to the establish ment of t he regions , the staff's job was to look at the geograp hy, and to recom mend on geog raphy, as to the regions , the boundar ies, and so on. They were not co mmissioned to recomme nd the locati on of t he regiona l centres , or ~ the headquarte rs for each regi on.

When this repor t was presented to the government , the first question , one of my first ques tions , was, " Who asked you?" Yes, we didn't ask you to name regional centres . That is a polic y dec ision that shou ld be left to the policy makers, who are the electe d people of th is province . That's where that decis ion belongs properly , Mr.

Chairman , because we have a criteria different , differe nt than the criter ia of staff , and I'm goin g to tell the Minister , I'm going to read into the record the criteria that staff were using, to demon strate to him what folly that would be if we were to follow that criteria . Yes, Mr. Chairman , with respect to the northwest ~ region , and I'm quoting from Page 25 of this sta ff " The report: choice of Dauphin as a regional centre was unanimous " , and so on . It goes on to say it has a population of 9,000 and so on, trad ing area, the number of motels , assembly halls , and so on.

" The commi ttee recogn izes that Swan River area is on the outside of the 60-mile radius and would recommend that some specialist staf f be _ located there ," and that' s their recommendation for Daup hin; uninamous that it be located in Dauph in. We didn 't ask them that , Mr. Chairman , but they presented it anyway . With respec t to the southwest region and I quote , Mr. Chairman , from the text : " The choice of Brandon as a regional centre was unan imous " , again, and they give their reaso ns. The central i, region , Mr.

Chairman , the committee would recommend Portage Ia Prairie as a regional centre for the central region , but the choice was not unanimous , Mr. Chairman . Notwithstanding that , that is where it rests; it is the regional headquarters ; I just point the dist inct ion between the first two and this one. Then we get down to the eastern region and there you don 't have unanimity either , Mr. Chairman. The committee was not unanimous on the Steinbach recommendation . You know , they were not unanimous on three out of the five . A MEMBER: Where else did they recommend it? . MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , there was a dispute between Steinbach , Beausejour , and somewhere inbetween ; somewhere around Trans-Canada Highway . Well, Mr. Chairman , just let me follow through. The Interlake region, Mr. Chairman , the committee was not unanimous on either . 2670

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 And so here you have a Minister that is telling me that while there is some lack of unanimity on ., the part of staff who are recommending on someth ing that they were not commissioned to recommend on and then that the politicians shouldn't play a role ; that's what he is saying, or .;; attem pting to say, while he was attempting to play the role today, Mr. Chairman . That's the absurdity of his position . So, Mr. Chairman, I say to him, that the criteria for establishing regional centers was not based on the criteria as I would read into the record as was established by staff on page 27.

Just look at what they say: "Steinbach is an economic growth centre with a population of 4,890 people, July 1970, in a trading area of population of 30,000 ." Now here is the importance of the recommendation, Mr. Chairman. What does it hinge on? There are two assembly halls, one hotel , three motels, and retail sales are $14.9 million . In comparison , Beausejour has a population of 2,586, trading area • of 8,000, and one assembly hall , two hotels , one motel, and $4.3 million in retail sales. Mr.

Chairman, who gives a damn how many hotels and motels there are with respect to where the government wants to set up its regional headquarters? What relevance is that, excepting for the comfort of the staff? But that isn't the purpose of the exercise , Mr. Chairman . The purpose of the exercise , Mr. Chairman , was to use the instrumentality of government in , the regionalization process in such a way that it would try to plug into those regions where it was reaso nable to do so; government regional decentralized staff in those areas that needed some economic uplift. That was the criteria, Mr.

Chairman , some economic uplift. And therefore if you want to compare Steinbach with Beausejjour on that criteria, Mr. Chairman , I don't believe anyone will believe you, Sir , that Steinbach needed urgently some injection into their local economy ; or that they needed to balance their economic performance , because the statistics that they read into the record here alone tell you that .

And so what does it mean when you decide to locate a regional office : it means that there are support services ; it means that people in those areas are more likely to apply for job opportunities in the provision of those services, that's what it's all about , Mr. .. :r Chairman . -(Interjections)- • A MEMBER: $10 million worth of more action, that's all. MR. USKIW: And so, Mr.

Chairman , the Min ister has not been able to demonstrate to this Committee any evidence, hasn 't been able to present any evidence , from his staff that there is indee d a desire on the part of the staff for reasons that should be obvious , if they are there, that there be a relocation. He has not been able to tell us that, he has dodged every question that I have put to him on whether or not the eastern management , whether the eastern regional director has asked for a transfer of the office locat ion. He has not been able to say, yes he has, and these are the r easons for it. So, Mr.

Chairman , obviously, the reasons are other than the efficiency of government , other than the del ivery of services from government, it has to do with something that is obvious to all of us here , Mr. Chairman , and that is the political desires of this Minister. Well , Mr. Chairman , I would respe ct very much his decision with respect to launching a new program that required new facility with respect to wherever he wanted to locate them . I would not , Mr. Chairman, take the position .. that we would dismantle because there was a change of government, just for political purposes, Mr. Chairman. ...

A MEMBER: Sam , you were never politically oriented , we know that of course. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , you don 't dismantle someth ing that has been built . That is irresponsible, that is not in the pub lic inter est , and , Mr. Chairman , if that is the way this province has to function - heavens , the road to Steinbach goes both ways, Mr. Chairman . Does it mean that after the next election we have to take tra inloads of office facilities back into Beausejour, is that what this Ministe r is really trying to suggest? - (lnterjection )- But, Mr. Chairman , that 's the name of the game .

That is what he is s uggesting , Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman , I challenge the Membe r for Springfield to state to this Committee that he supports the relocation of the eastern regional headquarters to the community of Steinbach . I challenge him to say so. -(Interjection)- Yes, we will deal with it in the right place , at the right time, but I challenge him to take a position vis-a-vis his Minister , who is moving people and facilities out of Beausejour , and relocating them into Steinbach, Mr. Chairman .

But, he hasn't told us whether he is going to build a new building to house them , or whether he has a few friends in Steinbach who have a few square feet of office space that they weren 't able to rent , and there 's a bit of pressure on, Mr. Chairman . Is that the logic of it, Mr. Chair man? 2671

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 A MEMBER: A good idea. MR. USKIW: Yes, those are the logistics of this Minister, Mr. Chairman, and if that's what they come down to, Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister to hang his head in shame. Yes, because that is not the way to administer the affairs of the people of this province , I ask him to hang his head in shame if that is his crit eria for this kind of move, Mr. Chairman. It's a disgusting approach to government , Mr. Chairman. I challenge the Member for Springfield to enter this debate, because we will remember, Mr.

Chairman, his contribution on this issue. -(Interjection)- I will remember, yes, well, we'll see who will be around . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, it is most amusing to sit here and listen to the Member for Lac du Bonnet run down a report that he, in fact, had his staff put together and now he's saying that, you know we should be paying full attention to the staff when it comes to making a decision. ~ -(Interjection)-- Well, he made that exact statement, but let us go back and look at the report. - And he said that it was a political decision .

Well, we all know that it was a political decision for him to, in fact, put the office in Beausejour, paying very little attention and of course looking very lightly at a report that, in fact, was put together by his staff. So, let us look at some of the criteria that was given the regional centre committee that were set up to pick them; as well as recommending regional boundaries the committee was instructed to select appropriate regional centres for each region . Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's right in the report on Page 24, hE! refers to the report.

And all at once there's no point in referring to the report because he is hearing something that he does not want to hear. Mr. Chairman, in fact the committee was instructed by him to select regional committee , regional centres , and in fact he didn't use what was recommended to him and then he goes on to say that the hotels or the numbers of service t' motels or Assembly Halls that's available to the committee . Well, let's go back to the report again . And it said, Mr.

Chairman , in the report that it should be located in viable, economic growth centres which could , in fact, facilitate the regional office, that in fact it had to be accessible to the majority or the region that it serviced; in fact, that fit the criteria for the Steinbach region and in fact, Mr. Chairman, the key thing that the member has not brought to the attention of the Committee was service to the farm people . No, Mr. Chairman, he had a great political desire to put financial funds, or funds of the province, into a large centre which was part of his constituency , Mr. Chairman . That , Mr.

Chairman , was the only criteria that that Minister used of the day . -(Interjection)- I'm not saying that at all, Mr. Chairman . I am looking ! at the support of agriculture in the eastern region . Mr. Chairman, our objective is to supply through the regional district system the best service, the best delivery of extension, to a centre which can best do that, and all the balderdash that he comes forward with trying to paint the picture that we are , in fact , trying to help our friends to rent space - you know, it amuses me to sit here and listen to the picture that he paints.

His staff prepared a report, given the criteria to recommend regional centres, Mr. Chairman, and he comes back and says, "Well, you know, it's now my staff that I should be listening to whether we change it or not" . It was his staff that recommended , Mr. Chairman , an economic growth centre '!" which can facilitate and give the people of the region the real service that they need to develop the agricultural industry . He hasn't said that once , but I've said that earlier this afternoon. I'm saying it again now, and Mr.

Chairman , I don 't think we should be subjected to listening to any more balderdash frorn the Member for Lac du Bonnet because that 's totally what it is. I've indicated that we'll be carrying on with the Agricultural Extension Offices in Beausejour, that in fact they will not be deprived of anything, and he says, " Well , what you take south you take away from the north". He brings a good point in, the Member for Springfield . I'm sure when ~ the Member for Springf ield can indicate to his people that possibly there 'll be an Ag Rep office moved to Dugald instead of having two Ag Reps sitting in Beausejour.

How could the member justify two Ag Reps sitting in Beausejour when, in fact, he could have disseminated them throughout the region to further diversify or to further spread out the services of the Department of Agriculture . No, Mr. Chairman, again the Member for Lac du Bonnet proved his desire to build a great empire in the Beausejour office. In fact, it was totally there . We are doing exactly the opposite, Mr. Chairman, ~ we are putting the farm people of the eastern region first with the delivery of extension service.

We are using a recommendation of his department, his staff that put a recommendation - maybe it wasn 't unanimous - but Mr. Chairman, the other point that was picked was a point on the Perimeter Highway in St. Vital which wasn't acceptable to the Minister of the day. We aren 't going back to St. Vital. We're saying we're considering . We're considering moving the regional office to 2672

-- Tuesday, April 17, 1979 Steinbach . Mr. Chairman , again the move has not taken place . -(Interjection) - Mr. Chairman, the member is saying an election . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time. Order please . Could we have one speaker at a time , please . The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: In concluding, Mr. Chairman, I just think that the Member for Lac du Bonnet, in trying to generate a great amount of smoke about the fact that we are doing something that shouldn't be done, he, in fact , had the recommendations to do what should have been done because of his desire.

And he admitted it to the Committee, that it was provincial money that he wanted to put into a town in his constituency to give it a financial uplift . Mr. Chairman, that is not our desire. Our desireis to give the farm people proper agr icultural extension so that the development of the industry can go ahead. So I think it's truly indicated by the member of the type, really the type of administration which we've had in the past, so I think that should clearly answer the question and I would hope that we could move on to the next Item . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , the last time the Minister was caught with his pants down we had a mot ion of Closure. Yes. -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. I recognize the Member for Lac du Bonn et. MR. USKIW: Yes. The last time this Minister had his pants down we had him bailed out by a motion on the part of the Minister of Highways who moved closure on the Item and denied the Committee debating time. Yes, that's how he got out of his tight spot the last time around , Mr . • ,r Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Tight spot? . . . MR. USIW: Yes. It was a tight spot. Because , Mr.

Chairman , if your arguments were valid , if the Minister 's arguments were valid he didn 't need a motion of closure to shut up the opposition. Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Could we refer to the Item that is before the Committee here, please. The Member for Lac du Bonne t. MR. USKIW: Very much so, Mr. Chairman . The Minister has already made a decision with respect to this issue. He is merely wait ing for the outcome of the election on the 22nd of May, after which he wil l feel freer to make it public, to make an announcement to satisfy those who have pressured him into this decision .

Yes, that's where we are with this decision, Mr. Chairman . We know it and he knows it and the people in Beausejou r know it, Mr. Chairman . His staff over there are aware .. of it, Mr. Chairman . Yes, they 're aware of it. But Mr. Chairman , this Minister today, this afternoon, and this evening , has been unable to tell me that there is some valid technical reason why th is office will perform better in Steinbach than it has been perform ing in Beausejour . That is what we are wait ing for , the meat of the issue. How will it do a better job for the eastern region? How has the sta ff arr ived at that position?

Who has made the recommendat ion? On what grounds have they made the recommendation , Mr. Chairman? ~ That 's all we want to know . And if the Mini ster has such fort ifying informat ion I'd be pleased to read it, Mr. Chairman , or to hear from him. Yes, what is the information that he has that would '" make us believe that the operations headquartered in Steinbach would somehow add to the value of the serv ice to the farm community in this region? Where has he that evidence? I ask him to show it. I plead with him to show it, Mr. Chairman . We are desirous of knowing just what he is basing this on.

If he has it, let him tell us. But he hasn't told us, yet , Mr. Chairman . No, he hasn't. • No, Mr. Chairman. In answer to my question, Mr. Chairman, whether or not he has had a reco mmendation to relocate from his staff who have been operating in that area for several years, he says no . ... MR. DOWNEY: Yes, I have, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , is the Minister now prepared to tell us that he has a recommendation from the Eastern Regional Director and his staff , that they could perform better out of Steinbach than they are now performing in the Town of Beausejour . Has he that kind of information?

If he 2673

Tuesday , April 17, 1979 has, I will be satisfie d wit h that, Mr. Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's very amusing that all at once , I am to pay total attenti on, total attention , to the Eastern Region al Director , whom I am sure is doing his job , and again commuting out of Winnipeg to the Beausejour office , in performing his duties as a Regional Director, wou ld feel that he was able to deliver , and I'm just saying this as my approach , that he would feel that he would be able to deliver out of one centre as well as another . Mr.

Chairman , the decision that is being made is being made by senior management , of which he is a part of, and in discussion with that individual , that in fact , management of the department , the Minister , the Cabinet , in which the member refers , or the - (Interjection) - MR. USKIW: Well, say so. MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I'm not saying .. . no, Mr. Chairman , I'll go back to the decision of the Mini ster th at is being discusse d, that kind of a decision . I would say that he did not listen to his senior staff , and he's saying all at once we should listen to the regional people . MR.

USKIW: I didn 't say that , you said it . MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , I am saying we are, in fact , discussing it , and have d iscussed it, with our senior management staff . We are still discussing it. And , Mr. Chairman, again i f w e had some great , glaring reason not to, because we weren 't going to be able to deliver the system better out of Steinbach , then that should have been brought forward by the Regional Director. But it hasn't been brought forward , and to make that dec ision we're looking at all the econom ic factors as it relates to the growth of the agricultural communit y.

And again I go back, our number one objective is to deliver agricultural extension in the best possi ble method to meet the needs of the 1 ._ people . Mr. Chairman , he has never indicated that , as a member, that that was one of their objectives . In fact his prime object ive was to inject provincial mone y int o a tow n in h is const ituency. And yet here we are with the objecti ve t o prov ide agr icultu ral extension the best possib le way wit h the relocat ion of the regional office in a town that was recommended by his depar tment, Mr.

Chairman , his department , and yet he is trying to tell us that we should listen and we should no t i n fact move it because , well , the Regional Direct or says it shouldn 't be moved. Well , I totally think that it demonstrates more than ever the decis ion that was made in the beg inning wasn't the proper one to make . It was a complete politica l decision that was made by t he last government. We are mak ing our decisions on the needs of the people . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , let the Minister know and understand that those are pol itical decisions , and they should be poli tical decisions , yes, absolut ely; that is not the kin d of decision that you delegate to your staff . -(Inte rjection)- Absolu tely, heavenly days, what are we elected to government for , Mr. Chairman? Does he thing th ink that he is elected to government so that the staff can tell him what is good for his constituents? Is that what thi s Minister is saying? Mr. Chairman , the political process isn 't cut out that way, Mr. Chair man . But, Mr.

Chairman , • the Minister is trying to tell this Committee that he does n't have to list en to h is Eastern Regional Director, that that isn't where the important information is going to come from on this issue. And , Mr. Chairman, that is fine . There is nothing wrong with that. If he is saying that , yes, they want to make a political decision that may cost the people some money and some inconvenience but for political reasons he thinks it's all right , it's a fair tradeof f, I respect him for that if that' s what he is saying , but let him not hide behind the bushes. We know it's a political maneuver, Mr.

Chairman. No o ne has to tell us anything other that . It's obvious. I simply tell him that it's irresp onsible. Yes, irre spo nsible because the facilities are there. They are there . It's not as if we're building new facilities . t: It's not as if we're building new facilities . The facilities are there , Mr. Chairman . And therefore if this Minister wants to relocate staff to satisfy his political desires, tha t' s fine . But if he is doing it at a price of having to either rent new space or build new office space in another community and have vacant space left here , yes, that is a problem , Mr. Chairman .

There is another human problem , Mr. Chairman. He knows that the support services to the Regional Director and his staff are provided by people who live in that particular community . He knows that if these people are moved that they will have to retire these people , release these people or ask them to relocate to Steinbach , Mr. Chairman . That 's right. He knows that. And therefore what will happen is a layoff situation or a termination for a number of employees in the area of Beausejour, yes, and there will be new staff positions opened up in the area of Steinbach ; he knows that. Mr.

Chairman, if he is doing all of that to satisfy some political desire he was irr esponsible . 2674

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 If the facility was not built , if the structure was not there and you were developing a new one, Mr. Chairman, I would not argue the point, Mr. Chairman , but it is there and it is not in the public interest, Mr. Chairman, to destroy , disassemble , to relocate just because this Minister wants to play a few political games, just because he has a few political debts that he still wants to meet, Mr. Chairman . Yes, that is not a responsible administration, Mr. Chairman, and we are not prepared to let that go by very lightly, Mr. Chairman.

I still invite the Member for Springfield to tell me that his Minister is correct in having that office relocated to Steinbach. I invite him, because I would be interested to know what his views are, Mr. Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just go back again . There was probably one other thing that I should bring forward and that is I would yield the floor to the Member for Springfield if in fact . . . Well , I just go back , Mr.

Chairman , to clarify for the Committee's sake, the Member for Lac du Bonnet was reading into the record; we will read into the record what was recommended for the Eastern Region, that the Committee recommends Steinbach as the regional centre for the Eastern Region . Mr. Chairman, as noted earl ier, there are two distinct communities in this region with both funneling towards Winnipeg. The Committee did discuss at some length the feasability of establishing the regional office somewhere along the Perimeter Highway in Transcona. Strong representation from staff also recommended this approach .

The Committee finally rejected this alternat ive on two grounds. First, a Perimeter location is not decentralization and does not permit optimum identification with the regional community; second, the arguments used in supporting such a location could be applied equally both in the Central and Interlake Region . .. ... So, Mr. Chairman, there was no mention of Beausejour in the recommendation of the department, _, no recommendation at all, and he is trying to leave with the Committee that there wss a great recommnndation to go to Beausejour . It was a totally politica l decision . -(lnterjection)- Well , Mr.

Chairman, he tried to leave that impress ion with the Committee. For the clarification of the Committee, I wanted to read that. I think we have discussed it far enough. I think we have made the record very clear where we stand . And again I will go back and repeat it one more time : The objective of the Department of Agriculture is to provide extension to the people of rural Manitoba through the regional delivery system . That , Mr. Chairman, is the main reason that we are considering the relocation of the central office, the regional office in southeast Manitoba. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , this minister tells us that somehow by relocating the head office , that that will somehow improve the service to the region . I ask him to tell me how, I invite him to tell me how it will improve the services to the - (Interjection)- Mr. Chairman , this . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I asked the minister , since he made this statement, that his sole interest is in the improvement of services to the agr icultural community - (Interjection)- But that is his interest .

I ask him how that interest will be better served from Steinbach than it is now being served from Beausejour. Perhaps he has some very logical ideas , Mr. Chairman, along those lines. I invite him to tell this committee what those are . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chai rman , numbe r one , I do - as much as the member is discredit ing the staff that he had - I would say that I would have to take the professional judgment of people within the Department of Agriculture at t he time the review was put forward , number one.

Number two , I would say that the discussions that I've had with the administrat ion, with the department to th is point, plus some discussions with certain individuals throughout the farm community that is affected , will again -(Inter jection )- well , Mr. Chairman , he has asked me why , and I'm using this .. . and of course , that is the decision that I have to make as a M inister . Well , Mr. Chairman , I'm very, very happy to be able to live with the proper decisions , ones which he is unable to live with . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone . MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

As I view the problem that we do have tonig ht , i t is the transfer of some of the responsibility from Beausejour to Steinbach . I think it would have to be pointed out that the former Minister of Agriculture is no longer the Minister of Agriculture, and the ministerial decis ions are now in the hands of the Minister of Agriculture, and it seems to be that the former Minister of Agriculture is a very slow learner . 2675

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 But there are a few things, I think that should be pointed out to him . The first, of course would have to be that there is an area of Manitoba, called southeastern Manitoba , whereby teere are no railroads . -(Interjection)- There are very rapid - I didn 't heckle you when you were talking but I will if you want to keep yapping . But in any event , there is a rapidly developing community there that isn't serviced by rail, it's serviced by trucks. And those people deserve the same representation as everyone else.

The proximity of Beausejour, of course when we had our good socialist government in power, they had to keep on building little edifices to themselves and as the former Minis ter said this afternoon, that is a political plum. That we accept. As the pendulum swings, the thing goes the other way, then he's got to accept the fact that he no longer is in power and he has got to accept the fact that things are not going to keep coming his way. Now, to get back to the area of servicing people . This basically is what our present Minister of Agriculture is out to do.

He is out to establish an area whereby the people of that area will be serviced , they will be having the ag reps, etc ., come in there , they will be gone, and by the same token , Mr. Chairman, they will not be building an edifice to themselves, they won't be building a great big stone monument that says, okay, this is what we have got for the town of Beausejour , we've built a thing and , as my friend here says, talk about paying election debts, my God, is it required to have a building -(Interjection)- the same as we have in - I can assure you, Mr.

Chairman, that as the transfer of power or the transfer of authority goes to the village of Steinbach or the town of Steinbach , there will not be the same kind of build ing programs, there will not be the same kind of capital outlay as we have seen in some of our honourable socialist friends. There's a few other things that I would like to bring up, too, Mr. Chairman. It's the fact that , you know, where are we going? where have we been going with the young ag reps?

The first question I would like to ask of the former Minister of Agriculture is this : How many of the real up and coming ag reps resigned , starting in 1974 to 1977-78 , 1977 , whereby the instructions came out, and I will not use the term that you so dearly love, I won 't call our friend , the former Deputy Minister of Agriculture , "the colourfu l Deputy ", yes. Where the instruct ions came by, they were instructed to , go out and not service the agriculture community at all, they were told to go out and service the " programs that were projected by the Minister of Agriculture and his honourable friend.

Very well . That is one thing, and that is the first thing, Mr. Chairman , -(Interjection)- that's the first MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker . MR. FERGUSON : Mr. Chairman , I've been in this House since 1969 , and I can truthfully say right now that is the first word of truth that I've heard out of the former Minister of Agriculture . That is the first. MR. CHAIAN: Order please . Could I ask the members that are interrupting that we could have one speaker at a time . The Member for Gladstone . MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman , over the past few days , I have made an effort of retaining myself .

I haven't heckled across the way at all and I'm certainly not gett ing that turned back . So " consequently, if our friends across the way want to play games , we'll just carry on and we'll get back to heckling a bit. But I thought the name of the game was to start to be nice. Of course, I have a little respect for the former Minister of Agriculture . I have no respect, of course for his policies , which he knows , and I can assure him that it will be an awful long time again before he will ever be the Minister of Agriculture .

As a matter of fact, I wouldn 't mind even making the statement, I give him three to one odds he never will be again . On any amount, also. But in any event, Mr. Chairman , I would like to ask the former Minis ter of Agriculture how many ~ of the up and coming young peop le that were coming up through the agriculture reps deals resigned . I can't ask, because I won't, but I know in my own particular area , I have five young ag reps , the smartest young fellows , they had degrees in Agriculture , they 're back farming because of the former Minister of Agriculture and his Deputy Minister .

They were not projecting policies to the farm community in Manitoba , they were told to go out and sell the B programs of the Minister, they were told to go out and to work on the marketing of -(Interjection) - no, well, anything outside the Wheat Board, rapeseed , etc ., this sort of thing . Mr. Chairman, our former Minister of Agriculture proved himself to the degree that when the crunch came and he made his move, he found that he had 23 percent of the people of Manitoba supporting him, 77 percent were against him. And they were against him for what reasons .

Because he was not projecting the aims and the aspirations in the farm community of Manitoba at all, he was projecting his own personal gain of state control of land , and complete cont~ol , marketing 2676

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 boards, everything down the spout. And I'll tell you, the Honourable Membe r for Lac du Bonnet will never ever be the Minister of Agriculture again in the Province of Manitoba , because he may sit in this committee , and his little friend from St. George may sit besid e him and smirk; he couldn't run a wheelbar row, he never has, no, never could, never will. All right, he is the aspiring , he's the ~ agriculture critic - and I'll tell you -(lnterjection)no, if he did it would probably upset him before he got halfway down the . . . But, Mr.

Chairman, I think I made my message abundantly clear. There is absolutely no way -(Interjection)- you bet it's clear, he never will be again . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . At least I know from the member from wherever he's from, that he can't recognize a wheelbarrow when he sees one. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister whether it's government policy to build regional offices on the basis of community halls and hotels within a particular community - if that will be his criteria for moving and building regional offices for his department? MR.

DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. I've answered that prior to the Member for St. George asking the question . MR. URUSKI: That will not be his criteria? " MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I again go back and say that the Number One objective is to supply the farm people with extension service, through the regional system, and the community, the trade centre, the accessibility of it to the farm people and the location within the region are 'l' some of the main criteria, and I go back to the report that the Member for Lac du Bonnet read from , and I think it clearly states that the initia l recommendation was for - to service the community, •· the trade centre , or to locate them in trade cent res, that in fact that recommendation had come forward .

I again go back and say that the criteria is to service the farm people in the region that the regional offices are located, and that is the main objective. .. ... MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, then can I ask the minister whether it is his policy, by the way he's enunciated, to build up in a building or an office, to move an office , in a regional centre or the growth centre as he calls it, at the expense of other communities within that region? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I don 't think that that is the case.

I've clearly indicated in the particular one we're discussing, that there will be a continuation of agricultural extension service in that

part icular area. In fact, let's go back and look at the office that we were talking about. The Regional Director , I don't know how many others, the people that are working out of that regional office, but I can find out for him that there are a certain number of those people that do not even live in that community, which I think is something that, as far as I am concerned, an individual should have the right to live where they want to live in the province .

But, on the other hand , when they are . . . if he's making reference to the fact that there's going to be some great loss because those individuals are being locate d in another regional centre , then it doesn 't hold water, and I know, for exale, the Regional Director does not live in the regional centre, in the eastern region at this particular point. MR. URUSKI: Is the minister prepared to instruct his staff to live within the community that they are working? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr.

Chairman, but I would think that it would be a desirous situation, but I do not think tha t i t would be up to the min ister to direct anyone to live where he should think they should live. We've had eight years Of that, Mr. Chairman.

We aren't going to dictate to our people where they should live, but I think it should be a desirable kind of a situation, and I do know that, particularly in some circumstances - there are health reasons , there are other reasons why people have to live in other areas, and I don 't hold that against them, but I do want to make it very clear that it would be desirable to have individuals who are working within the department to live in the community in which they are servicing. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, in view of the minister's comments this evening with respect to the eastern region , is it his intent to also move the regional office in the Interlake Region, from Arborg to Gimli or some other area, some other community? 2677

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not being considered . MR. URUSKI: There is no intention at all to make any changes in terms of regional staff? MR. DOWNEY: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, we have this minister telling us that the Conservative government is going back to the policy of looking at growth centres and strictly - while staff in many of the government departments , especially Industry and Commerce and others, historically, wanted to move governments of the day, in terms of providing development in rural communities - str ictly on the basis of retail sales and what they perceive as growth centres . We have this minister, of this government , following that direction that was given that ...

You know, there were many reports prior to us being in office , since we've been in office, of a particular direction that staff wanted to take in terms of building office space wherever there . . . in whatever community they perceived as being a growth centre . The growth centre concept , Mr. Chairman , is one that really ends up as having one major community in an entire region at the expense of all the other communities. And really, Mr. Chairman, that is what the minister is talking about with respect to the eastern region. Steinbach, of course, is the largest community within that whole eastern region.

Economically , Steinbach is doing very well. There is no doubt about that , but yet the minister indicates that he wants to service the farm population . Has he got statistics in terms of indicating the farm population that are not being serviced at the present time , or have not been serviced by the office where it is located? He indicates that that will be the policy. The Interlake Region is not being considered .. ,_ at this time . Mr. Chairman , I foresee the Interlake Region next having a battle between community versus community for the same situation . We see it, Mr.

Chairman, in the Estimates of the Department of Health. We see the Minister of Health, who has come up and I want to -(Interjection)- ,- _ MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you . Mr. Chairman , to relate what this government is doing - I want to give you an example what the Minister of Health is doing in terms of providing health delivery systems . At least he is being open and indicating that he is prepared to have community fight community for the services that will come to his region. Mr.

Chairman , the communities of Ashern and Eriksdale both have hospitals in their respective areas . They were scheduled to have 20 personal care beds in their region . Mr. Chairman, I want to relate to you what kind of a policy the Minister of Agriculture is following in light of what the Minister of Health is doing because this is a general direction of the present Conservative Government , Mr. Chairman . Those two communities that I mentioned have and were to have constructed 20 personal care beds juxtaposed to thei r hospitals. Mr.

Chairman, those units were tendered prior to 1977 when the Conservat ive Administration came into office they stopped those tenders. We had an announcement this session, Mr. Chairman , to the effect that there will be one 20 personal care bed unit built... ~ MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could I request the member from St. George to confine himself to the area that we are covering. If I allow that kind of latit ude we will be covering the whole waterfront. The Member for St. George . The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , as I understood the member for St.

George , he was merely relaying to the committee comparisons of other departments to this departmen t and it's very relevant to ..._ the consideration of these estimates. He is talking about the approach of government. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Member for Lac du Bonnet does not have a point of order . I would direct the Member for St . George to try and confine himself mor e to the issue that we have under discussion here. The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: We are talking about regional offices and services to rur al areas . Mr.

Chairman, I want to indicate to you the pattern that this government is taking in terms of providing services to the rural communities . Does the Minister of Agr iculture not believe that hospitals and personal care homes in rural communities are a service that is necessary to those areas , or does he want to divorce himself and stick to ag reps versus all the services that are required to build up a quality of life that is much needed by the people of rural areas . 2678

:) Tuesday, April 17, 1979 Mr. Chairman, the decision and the announcement made by the Minister of Health was to the effect that there will only be one community that will receive a 20 personal care bed, but, Mr. Chairman , there comes an area where he indicates that it may be put into other communities within that region thus forcing those communities to pit one against the other - one against the other; rather than making a decision as to which community shall have the service he has injected a third option .

When he was asked whether a third community and the community of Lundar would be eligible for the personal care ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would request the Member for St. George to try and confine himself within the item that we are discussing . By allowing this kind of latitude - if we could at least contain it within the realm of agriculture please. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the agricultural community ... Mr.

Chairman, if you would allow me one more minute I will be through with my remarks with respect to the direction that this government is taking in terms of regional offices in agriculture as well as health care services, both require to have a healthy rural community. Mr. Chairman, now we have the provincial government, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Agriculture, hand in hand pitting community against community.

Indicating well if you can give me a better argument why these services should not come to your area we will not move it to your area but if you can't give me, if you can't give me an argument that we should move the office space from one area to another, then they will be moved because the minister tonight, Mr. Chairman, has not shown to us, not shown to anyone on this committee that by his rationale that the office space should be moved - Mr. Chairman, the members opposite kept interjecting that they didn't like to be heckled ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time .

The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Agriculture tonight hasn't indicated to us that the office space, the regional office in the eastern region should be moved or should be moved to the community of Steinbach and that it makes economic sense. If he has then he should be able to provide us with figures, figures to indicate how many farmers are not being served or have not been served by having the office elsewhere.

He should also tell us, since there was a divergence of opinion with respect to the Interlake, why the Interlake office is not being moved along the same lines because the opinion was very similar with respect to the Interlake region. All he will tell us at this time is that it's not being considered at this time. I want to know, Mr. Chairman , when the minister is going to consider that since he is obviously considering moves in other areas . Are we next on the line?

Is the concept back to the regional centre concept with respect to regional offices or is he prepared to say that yes this is a political decision and I. as minister and government, am making that move? He'd better. .. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I hope that the minister will indicate whether he is intending to move those offices or he's not. He says he's considering them . What is delaying his announcement of those offices? Can he tell this committee? What is the delay for making the announcement? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I just want to make sure that I follow up what the member has recommended to count the farmers and see if they are not getting the total service. The information I have at this particula r time is the fact that we could deliver the service and meet the needs of the people better by moving of that office and I just will make sure of that , Mr. Chairman, on his recommendation . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate to us from whom he received those recommendations? • MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have answered that earlier today . I have answered it all evening .

I think we've fully discussed it and there is no need to ... lt's all repetition what we are doing here now and I can see no objective in carrying on with kind of debate that we are in. I've said we've discussed it at senior level within the department. We've discussed it with some of the individuals in the farm community . As far as names are concerned I guess we could provide some names but I don't think it's necessary. Again if the member is not satisfied that I have enough substantiated 2679

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 evidence that it should be moved then that's his problem but, Mr. Chairman , I have -(lnterjection) lt appears to be your problem, Mr. Chairman, because ... So, Mr. Chairman , I think we've again continued on in repetitious debate . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, is the minister prepared to repeat his statement that the building of an office complex in Beausejour and in Arborg was an irresponsible decision? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that. MR.

URUSKI: The minister implied that the decision to build an office building in the community of Beausejour was irresponsible and if he did not say that then, Mr. Chairman, can he indicate what he meant? What did he mean? '. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I don 't think I implied it and I know I didn 't say it. Agriculture is only a portion of that building in Beausejour and that of course in time will tell if it was an irresponsible move to have built that building . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, there is no doubt that there is an implication that there may have been an irresponsible decision based on what the minister is thinking and the way he is speaking , Mr. Chairman . He is indicating that if he empties half of that office or the staff in that office that the building will be vacant and then he can get up and say that it was an irresponsible decision to have a building built which is now half empty . Is that what the minister is indicating? MR. DOWNEY: Well if that's in fact what happens, Mr. Chairman , you'll bet I'll get up and say it. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, has the minister named a regional director for the Interlake region? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, how long will it be before a regional director will be named to give direction and delivery of services within the Interlake? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , we have an acting regional director in the Interlake area and I would ,. think , as my colleagues have indicated for the member , it will be done soon . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , how long does the minister feel a region in terms of having direction and carrying out government policies will be able to carry on without a fully appointed director . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I am quite satisfied that the acting regional director is doing a very competent job and that the delivery of any programs throughout that region are not suffering at this time. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if the acting director is doing an adequate job, what is stopping the minister from appointing him as the director? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I can assure you that there will be consideration given t a multiple -! of individuals for that particular job . MR. URUSKI: Could the Ministe r indicate whether that job has been bulletined? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Can he aiso indicate when the selection is expected to be made? MR. DOWNEY: Soon , Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Interlake region has not had a regional director for I believe six to eight months , approximately that length of time . What does soon mean in the minister's words? What time is soon, Mr. Chairman? 2680

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that we could make that decision within the next two months . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. ROBERT ANDERSON: Inexperienced and perhaps little able as I am to participate in the political game that's gone on here this evening and representing a riding that is located between the two points that have been in contention this evening -(Interjection)- the name escapes me for the moment - I would just like to point out that perhaps farmers are the type of individuals that vote with their feet.

Over the last number of years a regional office or a part time office was established in the village of Dugald located on Highway 15 in a rather deplorable little building where I remember dropping in there several times during cold winter days where the ag rep on duty would be sitting in his parka writing with his gloves on and the coffee, coffee that had dripped down the edge of his coffee cup would be frozen on the desk but the interesting thing is that in the two half days he spent a week in those deplorable conditions , he had substant ially more farm calls ~ than he did in that magnificent edifice in Beausejour .

So I am pleased to note that while the conditions of the part time ag rep office in Dugald are somewhat better , they are still located in a rather spartan construction trailer but I don 't think farmers ./ are that much concerned about magnificent monuments, they are more concerned about rece iving a service.

Perhaps our discussions th is evening would have been better directed in that regard rather _ than the so-called political game , because I don 't perceive this matter having any effect on the national campaign in Provencher but if the member from Lac du Bonnet feels that it would be, I don 't believe the date for nomi nations in the federal scene is for closed . Perhaps he would care to venture in and take advantage of the situation. It may be a lesson in humility .

So let's just l 2 remember that the object of the Department of Agriculture is to provide service to the farmers of the nation and the farmers of the prov ince, and bear that in mind as we continue through our discussions . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)(1)-pass - the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: The Member for Springfield, a question. Is the member suggesting, Mr. Chairman , that he is in support of relocating the Regional Office from Beausejour . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . I would like to direct the Member for Lac du Bonnet to address his remarks to the Chair . The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I did ask through you, whether or not the Member for Springfield would care to elaborate on whether or not he agrees with the Minister that the office that is now in Beausejour, the Regional Office for the Department of Agriculture , should be moved to Steinbach. It's very simple; it's a yes or no, and I wonder if he is prepared to elaborate. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Springfield's Estimates are not before the Committee . The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, you wuld know that in the debates in the Assembly that it's open to anyone to ask for clarification on the part of any speaker in the Assembly , and I ask him for clarification , without having to have an intrusion on your part , Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: He doesn't have a point of order . MR. USKIW: I sure do. I am entitled to pursue any line of questioning. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, again . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Member for Springfield . 2681

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. ANDERSON: ... being quite inexperienced at the so-called "political game" and procedure, I can only answer this question as I see it and as I perceive it, and as I feel the farmers of my constituency would perceive it. And again, I think they would probably vote with their feet. If I understand the way the farmers of my constituency move around, probably in the course of a year's travelling about they would end up in Steinbach much more often than they would end up in Beausejour , which tells me that perhaps the services might be more useful to them in Steinbach than in Beausejour. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)(1)-pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder, before we pass this item, could the Minister advise me what is the reduction of the staff at the Regional Office in Dauphin, if any, and also the sub-office at Ste . Rose. I guess Ste . Rose is a sub-office to the district. MR. DOWNEY: On this particular item, we are show ing an increase of 5 SMYs for agricultural representatives, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: A five increase in Dauphin and Ste. Rose; is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, in the total department. MR.

ADAM: Could the Minister advise how many staff was laid off or done away with in Ste . Rose? How many were terminated? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there was no change in the Ste . Rose office as far as the agricultural representation is concerned. It is a district office and we are continuing to man it with an ag. rep . MR. ADAM: How many staff are under the Dauphin district? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we are, at this particular time, in the agricultural representatives' •

section of these Estimates and we could get that information for the member as we proceed . The • total numbers of people out of the Dauphin office, that is information that the staff will look up and give you the total figure. But as far as the Ste. Rose office is concerned, the staff of the ag. rep. or individual, it is the same as it has been , and that is one ag. rep. and a district office . MR. ADAM: Are there any other Extension people, apart from the ag. reps. that were deleted or their employment was terminated out of Dauphin and Ste . Rose? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , and the place in which we can discuss that will be under the Canada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement , that there was, I believe , a farm advisor that was in the Ste . Rose office that is not there any longer. The position has been deleted . MR. ADAM: Is that the only position that was terminated , Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: That, Mr. Chairman , as of this last year . Of any change in staff , that is the only change, that there has been one deletion because of the Canada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement. MR. ADAM: No, it's okay ; go ahead . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you·. Mr. Chairman .

Could the Minister give us the total number of staff in this 5.(a)( 1 )(2), the complement in that area, or does he want to go through the whole . . . ? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , we might as well take them one at a time, the agricultural representatives. We have a staff complement of 45 positions. I want to indicate, and I indicated it earlier I realizetthe Member for St. George was not here prior to this evening but I did make a statement that the five new additional positions are to make available positions for Extension 2682

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 assistance throughout the summer for agricultural students to become a part of the agricultural system . It is a training program , or in fact job opportunities for summer students , that they can go out and work as assistant ag. reps . throughout rural Manitoba , so that when we do look for new people to fill ag. rep . positions we have some experienced people that can , in fact, qualify for the jobs , because of experience gained over summer employment through the Extension Service of the department, something that I feel has been long overdue . I think we have to develop ag. reps .

It is not someth ing that comes natural to those indiv iduals, who automatically come out of Agricultural College, that in fact they have to learn to work with people and the addition of these five staff man years will facilitate this kind of a program that will support the regional agricultural representatives. So that is the reason the additional staff man years are in there, to facilitate . . . And it does two things. Of course , it .. . Well, it does more than two. It facilitates the training of ag. reps.

It further supports the agricultural community with Extension work in the production season, crops in particular , and it provides job opportunities for students in the summertime . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the five additional SMYs, is that in addition to the 45 in that part of it? MR. DOWNEY: That is part of it, Mr. Chairman . That is the total staff man years. MR. URUSKI: From last year then, that's an increase of five from last year's complement. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate, the students that will be hired in those five positions, they will be undergraduates or graduates from the University? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the question I believe was: Where do we draw on the individuals to fill those positions? They would be agricultural students, University students, who would in fact qualify to fill those positions in that role . They could , in fact, be graduate students who have completed a course.

I might say that this five staff man years facilitates something like 15 assistant ag. reps. for a four-month period, which I think is very supportive to the rural community and supports the ag. rep . Extension work. " MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1)-pass ; (a)(2)-pass; (a)-pass ; (b)(1)pass - the Member for St. " George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister elaborate on the Regional Production Specialists' staff and role? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

The Regional Production Specialists that we are requesting positions for , we are request ing positions for 56.16 staff man years , in opposition to 56.42- % contract staff man years last year . The change is due to ... There are two new Farm Management Specialists • added, one in the Central Region and one in the Southwest Region . There has been a deletion of three positions , that being a Swine Specialist, a Livestock Technician and a Livestock Specialist, Mr. Chairman. So there has been an addition of two Farm Management positions and a deletion of three , and the deletions were vacant positions, Mr.

Chairman . • MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass - the Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it appears that there is a shift in emphasis in this area. Could the Minister, even though the staff posit ions were not filled , what is the intent of the shift in emphasis in terms of hiring the two Farm Management positions? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there isn't really a shift in emphasis .

Really what is taking place is, the hiring of two Farm Management Specialists will be filling in where in fact there could be a void take place through the deletion of the Small Farm Development Program that was provided through the federal government and the provinces. There was somewhat of a cutback there in that particular area. As I say, any direct appearance that it might be a shift in emphasis, I don't think we can read that into it, but in fact we have lost the CanFarm Program, as it was known , to the farm people . We are not participating in that , and we are picking that up . . .

Not picking it up but in fact supporting the farm community through the addition of two new Farm Management Specialists . 2683

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, will these positions be located rurally? Are they to be located outside of Winnipeg? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: This total appropriation will be outside of the Winnipeg area, out of the administrative area of the Winnipeg Area , in some of the regions? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass; (b)-pass; (c)(1)-pass; (c)(2) - the Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate the staff? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

There is no change in the staff, 5.4 staff man years in the 4-H and Youth Delivery Program . MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)-pass ; (c)(2)-pass; (c)-pass; (d)(1)-pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate the staff complement in (d)? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . In the area of the Home Ecs. in 5.(

d) appropriation we're looking at a reduction in staff , Mr. Chairman, a reduction from 25.35 staff man years to 17.35, of which ' 10 of those . . . Okay , there has been an addition of two Home Economists positions and that gives us a total of four Home Economists in each of the Southwest and Central Regions and three Home Economists in each of the remaining regions, the Northwest, Eastern and Interlake . There is a reduction of 10 staff man years through the Home Visitor positions, due to the termination of the Home Visitor Program .

There are, at this particular time, four vacant positions: one in the Southwest, Central, Eastern and Interlake Regions . MR. URUSKI: Those vacant positions that the Minister is indicating , are they the Home Ec. positions? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: To understand the minister then, then there will be seven home ec's in the rural areas and the remaining staff of 10.35 would be what? Clerical and support staff? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, the total 17.35 staff man years will be located throughout the regions in the province. They are all Home Ec's throughout the regions of the province .

I've indicated in my earlier comments that we would have 4 home economists in the two larger regions, that being the southwest and the central, and 3 home economists in each of the other three regions . MR. URUSKI: Could the minister then indicate where the additional 10.35 home economists are located? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, if we add four in the southwest and four in the central , we have eight ; and if we add . . MR. URUSKI: Oh, I'm sorry . Four each in the .. . MR. DOWNEY: That is correct, that is correct, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: And then three in each of the other MR. DOWNEY: That is correct, Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa . 2684 ...

.l Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Chairman , I not iced the Members of the Opposition conveniently skipped over (c), the 4H and Youth Sect ion because I know there is some re-emphasis there on the thrust in that

part icular division , but on the Home Economics Division the minister has indicated that there is additional staff support in this area , and I wonder if he might elaborate a little more on the type of support that 's going to be provided in this

part icular area , and what has happened with the lack of support that was evident in the previous four or five years when the home economists were removed from the particular regions and caused such a furor with the Womens ' Groups throughout rural Manitoba? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the emphasis on the ... -(Interjection)- no, Mr. Chairman, I believe he has referred to the home economists which we are discussing and I would just like to, well, I could elaborate a little bit.

The home economists ' roles that they will be playing will be to work in the area of home management , nutrition , of total picture of some assistance to the people in the farm management field that in fact, the use of home economists throughout the rural parts of the province will be able to furthe r organize and work with farm people to better their ways of lives and their businesses.

I think that it is the ability of professionally trained people such as the home economist to further the objectives of the farm people to increase their incomes; to provide better home making techniques; and work in the area of 4-H , I think which is one that is of key importance to rural Manitoba. So I think we are in a position now where we are able to use the professional services of the home economists over a lot large r number of people through their ability to organize and set programs up and to work through the educational systems that they have available to them .

I think that it is totally an indication of our government 's support to further and enhance the rural life and to improve the home making and farm management tools or making available to the farm people infrastructure for the betterment of the total farm home. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I just want to say that I fully support the minister in this particular

section of his Estimates , because it appears to me there was a very not iceable neglect in these particular two items in the past four or five years and I want to tell the minister that I suppor t the add ition of the home economists to this program wholehearted ly, because it appeared that with the furor that was created a few years ago with the Womens ' Institute and the removal of the home econom ists from rural Manitoba that here was an area when we hear so muc h, and we heard so much from the past years about improv ing the quality of life for rural Manitoba , that here was an area , the 4-H movement and the home economists that did so much to improve the quality of life for the rural people of Manitoba , that was virtually destroyed by the previous government and I want to tell the minister that I am happy to see him bringing back further emphasis on this

part icularly important facet of rural life in Manitoba. And it's pretty handy for the oppos ition to just zip over these two items unnoticed when they've spent so much time badgering and beleaguering some of the other items that have maybe less impact on the quality of life in rural Manitoba as these two particular items that we've just passed over. So I want to compliment the minister for realizing this and taking some steps to restore the home economists to rural Manitoba points where the rural people can have the benefit of their expertise . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr.

Chairman. I would like the minister to tell the Committee how many home economists he has all told working in the regions? MR. DOWNEY: I've already answered that, Mr. Chairman. That figure was 17 for the information of the member. MR. USKIW: Yes. Mr. Chairman , can the minister tell me how many people these home economists are going to be servicing? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , the total farm community is something like 30,000 people and I would think that this . . . MR. USKIW: 30,000 farms. 2685

Tuesday , April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: well, Mr. Chairman, there are 20,000 to 30,000 farms; I would say 30.000 is a fair figu re to use that they will be working with that farm community. MR. USKI W: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell me what criteria he has given to the home economists with respect to their role in response to those 30,000 farms that are out there that will be interested in services from the home economists? What is the policy of his government with respect to how that service is going to be provided? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I think I clearly indicated to the Committee that the type of delivery system that these individuals will be able to provide will be in conjunction with working with the Ag reps, with the 4-H programs. Their responsibilities cover a wide field through home management programs ; through the use of extension material ; and through meetings; that type of thing.

For the Member for Lac du Bonnet who really doesn 't understand what farm communities are like and how they operate , I think the role of the home economists are to make available to the farm communities or to the homemakers throughout Manitoba they make available courses whether they be in homemaking or money management or that type of thing for those individuals to participate, whether it be through group activity , whether it be through the news media , whethe r it be through local media, however.

But in fact, they have the capacity to go out and spread thei r extension knowledge and extension abilities over the total farm community . I know he doesn 't understand that because it isn't in fact a hand-holding program but I would • like to say that it is quite possible, it has been done and I can assure you that it will continue to be done very effectively. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , since the minister hasn 't given the home economists some terms < of reference on how they should deliver the service that they are so capab le of delivering, Mr.

Chairman, I then ask him how he expects 17 home economists to be able to respond to 30,000 farm families plus all the other rural families that from time to time they must respond to? You know , the figure of 17 is so meaningless relative to the clientele volume that is out there, Mr. Chairman . So, Mr. Chairman , if there is no policy on the part of this minister or no terms of reference as to how these people should function, then I can see that very many people are not going to get access to these services . MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , the member brings a good point forward, you know.

He says, "How can 17 people handle 30,000 farm homes or that type of thing? " Mr. Chairman, the total of 30,000 farm people, a lot of them are very qualified homemaking people and the type of programs that are being introduced are available to those who feel the need for it. Mr. Chairman, we are not going around spoon feeding people , telling them that there is need for us to get involved in their lives.

In fact, we do have programs that home economists are offering if they want to participate in a homemaking course or if they want to participate in a 4-H program which those people are administering, they're using the capabilities of many rural people that are available. They aren't, Mr. Chairman , going out and telling people that there's a great need for their services - they are offering them. And the same as the Ag. rep system , it's a delivery system that they use in the total farm community .

I would also say that there is a large percentage of individuals, of women throughout rural Manitoba who I'm sure he found out when he cut the home economists out, such as the W.l. group , Mr. Chairman , that all climbed on his back and he knew that they were quite alive , that in fact through the use of home economists and the use of many of these rural people, Womens' Institute for example, they are able to work with home economists and deliver a lot of the programs. Yet, Mr. Chairman , it isn't totall y identified by government that we have to go out and, again , hand-hold or force feed individuals .

There are programs that are made available through extension , they are available to all the farmers and I clearly want to indicate, there would not be 30,000 people who would want to feel the need for to make use of them . But they are availabl e to them , Mr. Chairman, something that the Member for Lac du Bonnet did not make available when he was in Administration . He directed the people to handle a few of his particular favourite ones , and I think that now the farm people are very much relaxed , that there is that extension service available to them if they want to use it.

If they don 't, then fine, but they aren 't being directed to use them or not to use them, and he doesn 't understand that. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , how many additional home economists do we have since he was in charge of this department? How many? 2686

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: In the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Chairman, there are two. MR. USKIW: Two, Mr. Chairman out of 17? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman , there is a correction to be made here. Last year there was an additional some home economists also, so let us get the record straight. A MEMBER: He tried to destroy the program which we put back . MR. USKIW: . what you put back. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order , please. Does the Member for Lac du Bonnet have any further questions? The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman . We're waiting for the minister to give us some answers. MR.

DOWNEY: We don 't have that, Mr. Chairman , but I do know I can recall that . .. no, in last year's Estimates we did increase the numbers of home economists. MR. USKIW: One? MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman, he says one, but at least we have redirected them the same as the Ag. rep s so that they are available to the total farm community. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is our problem. The minister has just told us they have been redirected and that is the nub of the problem because what is the role of a home economist , Mr. Chairman?

The members know that the role of a home economist is to offer her assistance to homemakers in the field of home decorating, in the field of making clothes, in the field of the kitchen, the surrounding yard around the house , and so on. Yes, this is the role of a home economist. Now, Mr. Chairman , since we have only 17 home economists and we have some 30,000 farms, and we have tens of thousands of other rural people who are interested in the subject of home economic s, it's very difficult for me to believe that these 17 home economists are going to be able to do much of a job .

Now I agree with the min ister - they will be able to have a presence throughout the province , but the question I put is whether or not we are going to get the kind of value for their services that we should be getting Mr. Chairman. That is the question that I raise because, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that this government should be using taxpayers' dollars to provide programs for people who don't need programs. Yes, I don 't believe that that is a very proper thing to do , to use tax dollars to provide services to people who don't need the services that are being provided .

And so we have to examine our clientele in this regard, Mr. Chairman. There are thousands of farm families who truly don 't need that kind of assistance and, if they do need it, they are able to pay for it, Mr. Chairman . They can get a home decorator in or they can do all sorts of innovative things on their own without being a charge to the taxpay ers of this province. And the home economists should be concentrating on drawing into the program those people that don't even know that the program is good for them, but is desirable and should be there for them . Yes, that is the proper role of a home economist .

It's a role to stimulate an activity on the part of those people to help themselves that need some help, Mr. Chairman. It isn't the role of the home econom ist or shouldn 't be to sort of become part of the elite club in the community . That is right . That is the thing that happens, Mr. Chairman , and I don't fault anyone excepting I fault the Minister who doesn't give direction when that happens. It seems to me if there are only 17 home economists, the policy of the government should be that those Home Economic Services should be designed for a category of people that truly need that kind of assistance. Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister has a constituent that has a net worth of $100,000 or $200,000, or a half a million - and there are many of them , Mr. Chairman, many of them - surely he isn't telling me that those people could not manage without the services of a free home economist provided by the Department of Agriculture. Surely he is not telling me that , Mr. Chairman . -(lnterjection)- Well , Mr. Chairman , the Member for Minnedosa says that it might be helpful to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time, please. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. 2687

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Minnedosa tells us that it might be helpful for those people. I agree it would be helpful. I question whether the taxpayers should bear the burden, Mr. Chairman. I don't believe that in my household, Mr. Chairman, that I would want to impose my .. household needs or the needs of my family on the taxpayers of this province for those services. I don't believe that that is proper, because we can get along very well without them . Yes, there are people that can't get along without them, Mr. Chairman. They number in the thousands, Mr. Chairman .

You know, when you talk about the Manpower Training Programs that this department administered up until this year, Mr. Chairman, we had people introduced to the community of Selkirk that didn't know how to flush a toilet. That's right; they didn't know how to flush a toilet . They didn't know what it was for, Mr. Chairman. -(Interjection)- Well, the Member for Minnedosa would like to make some disparaging remarks about the community of East Selkirk. That's his privilege, Mr. Chairman, he will have to live with that. But, Mr.

Chairman, we have introduced to that community many trainees who didn 't know anything about draperies, who didn't know anything about furniture -(Interjection)- That's right, Mr. Chairman; it's very apropos . Mr. Chairman, those are the examples. Yes, those are the people that desperately need someone to - the Minister says "Hold their hand" - yes, until they get oriented into the new environment, and that is important, Mr. Chairman.

It is important, since we have a limited resource or a limited capacity to deliver this service, it is important that we zero in on those areas, problem areas, in society that need that kind of attention. Mr. Chairman, if these ladies in the Home Economics Branch are going to be holding hands and having tea parties with ladies that just want to have a little meeting rather than having serious problems in managing their households , then , Mr. Chairman, we are wasting $456,000 if that is what they are going to do. Yes, it's a waste of $500,000 , Mr.

Chairman , unless there is direction on the part of this Minister to make sure that we zero in on the human problems that are there ' ~ and that need attention, Mr. Chairman, that this is a waste of money . So the fact that he adds two home economists, Mr. Chairman , does nothing but exaggerate the waste that much more unless there is a definite policy of the government to apply these services to the area of need , not the area of greed, Mr. Chairman , the area of need; there is a difference . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can 't help but reply to the Member for Lac du Bonnet , who is so totally uninformed .

There is an indication in our Estimates that we have increased the numbers of home economists this year by two , but last year , Mr. Chairman , there was a significant increase of five. And so, when you look at the total increase , there is a 60 percent increase in the making available of home economists to rural Manitoba, Mr. Chairman , to rural Manitoba to work with the homemakers in rural Manitoba , to provide them with money management programs, nutrition, for those people who want to use that , Mr. Chairman . And I can assure you that it is not being wasted. In fact, it is being used very efficiently.

In fact , I would like to say that I think that the total farm community, that was one of the main things that they suggested and recommended was to reintroduce to the rural communities support staff in the area of home economists for the 4-H programs, for all the programs which in fact I'm sure the Member for Lac du Bonnet really doesn't understand what the needs are as far as rural communities are concerned . But as far as what he refers to in the East Selkirk area , Mr. Chairman , we did not reduce . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of privilege. MR.

USKIW: The Member for Minnedosa drew into the picture the quest ion of East Selkirk; I made no reference. So let the member address his arguments to the Member for Minnedosa. MR. DOWNEY: I will retract that, Mr. Chairman. He referred to a program in the Selkirk area, and I'm sure that he referred to the Selkirk Training Plant, Mr. Chairman , which we have carried on with home advisors to help those individuals. But it wasn't him , Mr.

Chairman, that introduced that program, it was under the FRED Agreement under the last Conservative government, not the NDP government who want to bow to be the great people who helped all these needy people. It was a Conservative government and it is being carried on by a Conservative government, and in fact has been put under the Department of Manpower , who in fact are reponsible for that program . It is a good program; it is being carried on with , Mr. Chairmdn, and I am very happy to support that . 1 think it's one of those things which he has clearly identified .

There is need to upgrade the individuals' living accommodations or their abilities to cope with modern-type house facilities, that 2688 ..

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 in fact we are continuing on with that . And if he is indicating that we're reducing that, I don't want that to put on the record and I don't want it on the record that he was the one that introduced it. No, Mr. Chairman, and I want to make sure that that's very plain and clear to the people of Manitoba . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has skated all over the place but hasn't answered the question .

The question is are we going to put these 17 people into a service that will benefit those that have the greatest need in this area or is the Minister simply telling us that we are adding bodies and they will find something to do, because there is quite a difference between the two approaches . Yes, the Member for Minnedosa objects to the program of the previous government , who gave these people direction to deal with those critical areas in society that had to be dealt with, at the exclusion of the elite , yes. That is what he is objecting to, and I respect that, Mr. Chairman.

He prefers to have general programs , Mr. Chairman, that is open to the whole community, so that those in the know in the community, the elite of the community, are the first ones in and then the resources are used up and the others have no way . of getting in, Mr. Chairman . Yes, Mr. Chairman , it's a fat eat's approach to programming , Mr. Chairman, and that is what the Member for Minnedosa is now so proud of, that is being reinstituted by this government. Well , Mr. Chairman , I am not proud of that , because there are tens of thousands of people that need a lot of attention, Mr. Chairman.

If we're going to have a Home Ec. Program, a people program to upgrade people's services -(Interjection)- That's right. Then make sure that there is direction given to staff so they can zero in to the right people, Mr. Chairman , not an overall general program that anyone can participate in. -(lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman , the members oppose the idea of categorizing people . Well, I will tell him that he is categorizing people , because he knows , Mr.

Chairman , that when you have a wide open general program with a limited resource , a limited staff resource, limited financial resource, that only those in the know , those with the connections, get in right away, and it's to the exclusion of the others, Mr. Chairman . He knows that full well. And, Mr. Chairman , that is the role of government -(Interjection)- Well, the Member for Portage Ia Prairie is sick, Mr. Chairman , the Member for Portage Ia Prairie. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Could we have one speaker at a time . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, we do not require the taxation of people to provide services to people who don 't need the services . Mr. Chairman, the First Minister is here and I would think that he would be prudent enough to recognize what I am talking about , Mr. Chairman . I would th ink that he would appreciate those commen ts. What we have here, Mr. Chairman -(Interjection)- Yes, anything that is for those that have a need is Marxist in the views of the Premier, Mr. Speaker, but anything, any dollars that are flowing out of the public purse , Mr.

Chairman , that can be grabbed up by those who have too many already , that makes that policy just right for him , Mr. Chairman . Anything other than that is Marxist. Well , I tell him, Mr. Chairman , that there are tens of thousands of people that need these kind of services but they can never receive them because 17 people cannot do the job, Mr. Chairman , and since the resources are not adequate to do a job for many people then we have to give them some terms of reference to make sure that our dollars are not squandered by those that are somewhat greedy in society , Mr. Chairman, who want it all.

Yes, we have to put up guards against that. We have to make it a little difficult to have those kinds of people enter the program . Like it would be a little hard to catch tt.e home economist on the telephone, you know, because she is so busy with programming for people that need her services . That's the kind of approach that th is government should be following if they are serious abou t home ec. services , Mr. Chairman. But , Mr. Chairman , that has not been the history of this service.

The history of this service has been that the ladies club of the community, who happen to represent the elite most of the time , are the ones that use up all of these services . -(Interjection )- Yes, well it happens in my backyard , too, Mr. Chairman . I have seen it; I have worked with it; I know them personally, and it's a nice get together but it is a waste of taxpayers money and it isn't doing the kind of job that it was designed to do when it was put together many years ago. Mr. Chairman, I know that the Member for Minnedosa and his wife and family don't need Home Ec. Services .

They may be helpful to him, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . 2689

Tuesda y, April 17, 1 979 MR. USKIW: These services may be helpful to the Member for Minnedosa or his wife, but I know that he doesn't depend on them. I know that he has the financial resources to find these services elsewhere , Mr. Chairman, and to pay for them, if necessary . He doesn 't need the taxpayers of this province to subsidize his home operation in Minnedosa, Mr. Chairman, or in Winnipeg or wherever it might be.

And that is why I ask the question of the Minister: Has he given the home economists some policy direction, some terms of reference as to how they should function, or is he just telling us we are increasing the numbers of bodies and they will do whatever they will do? Because if it's the latter then we're wasting $500,000 , Mr. Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , I think we have hashed this one over many times and I would like to indicate to the member that they have had policy direction . In fact they are to service the total community that they are involved in.

And I give credibility to the people who have professional training , who know, who in fact know how to distribute their time and their efforts to the people in the community who are in need . You know , there are qualified , trained people in this field of providing extension through Home Economist Programs . Mr. Chairman , they do not need, as the Member for Lac du Bonnet has totally convinced himself , that they need to single out , single out a certain segment of a community and that is their total time to be spent with them . Mr.

Chairman , for the benefit of the Member for Lac du Bonnet, who really doesn't understand what a rural community is like, it is a total community of people who are desirous of using agricultural and home economist extension . People who are in real need of it are identified by those professional people and they, in fact , zero in on those particular problem cases. -(I nter ject ion)- No. Mr. Chairman, he doesn't understand that because if the Minister hasn't identified it for him, he thinks, in fact, that they don 't recognize it. Mr.

Chairman, what did they spend four years or six years or eight years in their total education system to do? Mr. Chairman, they spent it to identify the needs of the people of the province and that's, Mr. Chairman , what the members opposite cannot understand . They cannot understand that people are trained to service the needs of people . They don 't have to be totally directed. They 're directed, Mr. Chairman , to service the needs of all Manitobans, and they carry those objectives out very well , I must say.

I've had real good reports on the Home Econom ists working with all groups , not the tea drinking people that he would like people - in fact, I would invite him to go out through rural Manitoba and campaign on that kind of a ground, and I would also say, Mr. Chairman , that 1 can go into any area that there is real need for Home Econom ists service to the people he's identifying. Well , Mr. Chairman, you do not need 500 because we live in a community that wants to help one another . You don 't have to have a particular government paid individual to go in and hold the hand of every Manitoban who is in need . Mr.

Chairman, that isn't what we live in in Manitoba . We live in a community that want to help one another and that's what the job of a professional is, and it's carried out very effectively and will continue to do so as long as we are government in this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, the former Minister mentioned wasting money a while ago. Well, he should know, because God knows he wasted enough of it in the eight years that he held that particular portfolio.

And I also want to have the record show that I have very, very many good friends in East Selkirk, as the member well knows, and I'm not making disparaging remarks about the people of East Selkirk , and I want the record to show that , but if the member thinks that he's going to stand before this Committee and tell us that we need a $20,000 a year Home Economist to teach somebody how to flush a toilet, he is absolutely being ridiculous , or he's being facetious , one or the other .

They learn that on television nowadays, and God knows there's not many people without a television set in East Selkirk or West Selkirk or anywhere else in Manitoba, and you don 't need an economist to teach somebody how to flush a toilet, and if he wants to try and make this Committee believe that kind of nonsense, I'm surprised at him. The Home Economists are brought back to the post that they were in, Mr. Chairman , to serve all of the people of Manitoba .

They're not going to be segregated like he would have the former Ag Reps, that you only service those people that are having difficulty making a living on the farm. You don't worry about the fellows that have got it made, that are making a dollar . That's who he would have the Home Economists service. The Home Economists serve those that need the services of a H ome Economist, and as the Minister pointed out they are well-trained, they've taken many, many years of University training to identify those that need their training , and they know full well .

There may be someone in the upper echelon of society that has a very simple problem but she mig ht want the Home Ec to solve it and she makes a phone call to her . That facility is available to her as it's available to the lady that happens to be unfortunately on welfare and needs a little 2690 ,. . .... ..

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 more help possibly. And if the member is going to sit here and make us believe that we're hiring 20 some thousand dollar a year people to teach people how to flush toilets, I'm very , very surprised at him , Mr. Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , it was general comments made by the member. I will yield. I don't think there was a question. Well, if there was a question to me, if he's referring to me that I'm going to hire $20,000 Home Economists to teach people to flush toilets, I can assure him that that isn't the intent.

I think I've totally clarified what the objective role of the Home Economists are and I'll leave it stand at that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciated the remarks of the Member for Minnedosa in terms of this debate. He doesn't want to realize that prior to 1970 there were at least 6,000 farm families who did not have -(Interjection)- 60 percent of the farms in Manitoba ·did not have water services, Mr. Chairman . -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Member for St. George . ..; MR. USUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, less than ten years ago 60 percent of the farm families did not have sewer and water facilities in the farm homes. This member is talking about holding someone's hand. Mr. Chairman, if the people learn to flush toilets by watching television we would be better spent by spending $100 per TV set, we'd at least service 4,000 farm homes by providing them with a black and white television in the amount of these moneys. Mr. Chairman, that is how ludicrous the comments were from the Member for Minnedosa . Mr.

Chairman, the Minister should indicate whether or not there will be outreach programs carried on by the Home Economists in the area.

I would like to know whether the Minister, if he is indicating that those services will be provided to the community, whether they will be provided to farm families in lower incomes who really need the support, whether he's prepared to provide this committee for next year an analysis, an evaluation of the services and data of the type of farm families that are served, what types of programs are being conducted , and give us an evaluation of the services and who is being serviced by the Home Economists. Is he prepared to provide that information for us? MR.

DOWNEY: I'd be quite happy to provide that information, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , we have then a commitment from the Minister that he will provide for the next Estimates process, regardless of who is Minister in that government , that there will be an evaluation done on the population that is being served, types of programs , and a full report brought to this Committee. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I have said on many occasions , and if I didn 't say it in my opening remarks as far as the Estimate process was concerned I think it's important that all programs carried out throughout the Department of Agriculture should be assessed on an ongoing basis, and I would be quite pleased to indicate to the members of the Committee of the numbers of families - I don 't think it's the business of the Department of Agriculture to ask them how much money they 're making or to get into their financial affa irs - but as far as the people that are being serviced I would be more than pleased to prepare a report for the Committee next year whether I'm the Minister , whoever's the Minister, whatever be it.

I think it's important to the taxpayers of Manitoba that there 's an assessment taken and I think that's why we're in government right at this particular time as there was an assessment taken by the people of Manitoba and they decided what was happening with their money and , in fact, were fed up with the situation that was taking place, and that was one of the assessments and the processes that take place . Again, I will give the member the commi tment that I will provide that information. MR.

URUSKI: The Minister indicates that it is not his intention to ascertain in what economic strata the clientele will be, but that's really the nub of the question , Mr. Chairman . Who are those economists going to serve , Mr. Chairman? That's really been the nub of this argument . Is he now saying that they will go on serving without direction whoever they desire? Mr. Chairman , is that what the Minister is saying? He may as well learn to flush a toilet and flush that report that he's talking about down now if he is not intending to give any direction to those Home Economists . 2691

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Well, the only answer I have, Mr. Chairman , is that that kind of a comment coming from the Member for St. George really doesn't deserve an answer because again he says the nub of it is the level of income of those individuals.

I go back again and say that the people who are • employed by the department are professional staff, professional Home Economists who can truly identify the needs of the people throughout Manitoba and I can assure you that the Number one requirement is to fulfill the needs of those people , not to totally be handholders of those individuals, but to work with them as a part of the total community, not to divide a community but to meld a community together . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(dX1) - the Member for St. George. MR.

URUSKI: I just want the assurance of the Minister that the program that will be delivered will be delivered to people in the report that he provides , to people in need and not to people who can do, and do without the program, and can handle the activities on their own, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5. - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate, and I just want to make sure that I got his comments correct, the reduction of ten staff man years was a transfer to the Department of Labour? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Well , Mr. Chairman , then maybe I got the Minister wrong.

He intimated that the Homemaker Service , that he indicated was a good program, started under the former Conservative Government , as he had indicated under the FRED Program , is being continued and is being continued under the Department of Labour, and the reduction he just told us of ten SMY was in the Homemaker Services. Well, could he explain himself, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can explain myself . I said that the individual home advisers that were a part of the Selkirk Training Plant are continuing on with the Selkirk Training Plant.

The 10 SMYs , the home advisers that I said are being deleted from the department were throughout .. the total region of Manitoba . In fact, there were only three of those positions had people in them. Seven of them were vacant positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(dX1)-pass - the Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , the program that the Minister so highly praised throughout the rural regions is, in fact , being phased out. It's cancelled. MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . I've said the home advisers, the home advisers, of which there :. were seven vacant positions , are being deleted.

We are replacing them , and have replaced them with something like - I gave the figures here a few minutes ago - there's been an increase from last year until this year of seven Home Economists . -(Interjection)- Well, yes, Mr. Chairman, we've dropped 10 SMY positions of which seven of them were vacant, and replaced them with seven professional people. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(dX1)-pass - the Member for St. George . MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate what the type of services that were provided by the homemakers versus the Home Economists , since he indicates that they were doing the same jobs, and could he also tell me how many positions were filled of those seven that he said that were vacant were filled last year? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the member wants to say that the positions that were deleted were in fact the same kind as I'm refe rring to? Is that what he's indicating? That isn't the case.

The home advisers that were available worked under the direction of Home Economists, and those positions are deleted, of which seven were vacant. -(Interjection)- Well, no, Mr. Chairman , I referred to the program, the home advisers that were filling a need, a direct need of individuals who were coming into a community that couldn't cope with modern facilities , where in fact in the Selkirk Training Plant , that's what I referred to as being really the area of need as far as home 2692

1 Tuesday, April 17, 1979 advisers are concerned. That was only truly the area that I could see was in need to continue on with home advisers . -(Interjection)- No, Mr. Chairman , that is correct. I feel that the replacement of home advisers with professional staff of Home Economists will more than fill the needs of the vacant Home Visitor Programs that -(Interjection)- Well, Mr.

Chairman , I think I've gone over and over and over again the objectives of the Home Economists , that they truly identify the needs of the needy people and will work with them through their ability as professional people to set up programs , to organize themselves, and to truly fill the needs of rural Manitobans . The home advisers, as far as I'm concerned, filled a need, particularly in the area of the Selkirk Training Plant, where people came into a totally new environment and in fact are being continued on with .

But as far as the continuation of Home Advisors throughout rural Manitoba, the base of people which they covered , the numbers of people are now being picked up by the Home Economists, through their directive , plus the additional job description , as far as the Home Economists are concerned , in a larger field, the total people throughout Manitoba , not just a few selected people who the Member for Lac du Bonnet would indicate to them really needed that kind of help. Well, Mr.

Chairman , I indicate to the Committee that Home Economists have the ability to provide complete homemaking service for all Manitobans and can identify those that are in extra need and work out programs to assist them in those areas . So I think we are being totally responsible and more than responsible when we look at the programs that we have had over the past eight years. It's supportive of the total community . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Could the Minister tell me whether he now does not consider the Home Advisor Service important to the rest of the province? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I am indicating that that Home Advisor Service is being provided by the Home Economists of the province. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate to me what the salary ranges are for Home Advisors versus the Home Economists? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if the member is trying to make a direct comparison, I would think that we could -(Interjection)- No, Mr. Chairman , he is saying . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. One speaker at a time? MR. DOWNEY: He is saying that the Home Economist is unable to carry on the responsibility of a total programming of rural Manitoba , in homemaking and the needs of people.

That is their responsibility . They are individuals who have the capacity to do that, Mr. Chairman . The Home Advisors, Mr. Chairman , are very capable and qualif ied people. There were three of them filling positions ; there were seven vacant. Those individuals service a lot smaller group , Mr. Chairman . Their services were not spread over the numbers of people that the Home Economists are expected to service . So I think it 's very plain, Mr.

Chairman , when we talk about total support service to the agricultural community as opposed to what they would consider the needs of the farm people, identifying a few people in need and the rest of them can go their own way. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is not our approach and I think I have clearly indicated that. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate and tell me whether the Home Economists will be doing Home Adv isor services? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I would have to say that the Home Advisor service that I can foresee tak ing place , as far as the ones that are involved in the Selkirk Training Plant, no, Mr. Chair man, I can 't see the Home Economists becoming directly involved again in hand-holding programs . -(Interjection)- Well , it is a good program , Mr. Chairman , in the Selkirk Training Plant , where you have people coming in to a totally new atmosphere . Mr.

Chairman, there are very few of those particular situations in Manitoba and , if there are, I can assure you the professional ability of Home Econom ists will see that there are programs developed to educate and train those people far more efficiently than on the one-to-one basis that the members opposite are trying to say we should have retained. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , we had the Minister here come and tell us and gave members of this Committee -(Interjection)- more than a lecture; he berated us for knocking and for arguing against a program that his predecessors in the fed . program , the Conservative previous 2693

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 set up, the Homemakers Services, which was a very much needed , very valuable service to many farm families. -(Interjection)- Well, Mr. Chairman , now he is talking about a specific area. He is now indicating that we shall discrimate against the Province of Manitoba for the sake of the Selkirk Training Plant. We shall not provide these services to the rest of the province -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, I am only repeating the words of the Minister of Agriculture, who indicates that the only support there should be for this program is . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

Could we have one speaker at a time . This is most difficult for the recording devices, this constant interruptions. The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Now I don 't know whether the community of Selkirk should be so privileged over all the other rural communities in this province , but for a Minister to indicate to this Committee with the praise that he has given to this group of staff , the Home Advisors , and then indicate, well, I have done away with it for the rest of the province, Mr. Chairman , really makes his program a laugh. It really makes him a joke.

It makes him such a joke, Mr. Chairman, that if he is really serious about Home Advisors and helping people in need he should go out and ascertain as to how many people were handled by the staff, by those homemakers . Can he tell this Committee "" how many families were serviced by those homemakers who were in the field , those three that he is now deleting and the seven that were there before, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think, to further support what I am saying as far as the ability of our Home Economists and what we have made available to the Home Economists in the delivery of their programs to help in the areas where they would in fact say we should have a hand-holding individual , we have increased from 28,000 in 1977-78 budget to $67,000 for the use of support staff to the Home Economists in the per diem capacity . So in fact the Home Economists , Mr. Chairman, have the capacity to employ people or to help, to bring in individuals to support those individuals that they are referring to that are in so much need.

Mr. Chairman, I think it's a clear indication that we are allowing those professional people to operate in their capacity as professional people and do the job that has to be done . If he cannot understand it, I think now, after his questioning, I can understand why. MR. URUSKI: I didn 't hear the Minister indicate that he has an additional $60 ,000 in the budget . -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, there was a budget in the Home Economists 1978-79 of $535,300, and this year the budget is down to $456,500.00. There is roughly , Mr. Chairman , a cut of about $80,000 in the budget.

Now the Minister says that there is an increase of some $60,000 and yet there has been a reduction of three staff . Could he then go through the budget and explain to us exactly what he is doing, step-by-step , in terms of the allocation of that $456,000 .00? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

The deletion of those 10 SMYs , those positions as far as Home Visitors are concerned, show a reduction of some $100-and -some thousand , but there in fact has been an increase to the use, as far as Home Economists are concerned , of some $60,000.00 . -(Interjection)- That's right ; there is a reduction in the budget because of the fact that the money we're using to support the Home Economists in their efforts is less than the continuing on of 10 Home Visitor positions . MR.

URUSKI: Then the Minister now is admitting that there is a net reduction in terms of services to farm families in the total service provided by this Branch? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . For the clarification of the Committee , the seven positions that we are deleting from the Estimates never were filled . -(Interjection)- Well , Mr. Chairman , they never were filled by the previous administration . -(Interjection)- That's right, and neither did we. So we, in fact, didn 't cut the budget to the rural community , we are providing a better service to a larger number of people.

And again I go back and say that we are doing it -(lnterjection) Well , Mr. Chairman, I think it clearly indicates that we are , in fact , providing more service to more peo ple in a more responsible manner. MR. URUSKI: Can the Minister then assure us that the moneys that will be utilized by the Home Economists will be used in the same manner to hire part-time , at least part-time , Home Advisor services that he indicated were so needed and so helpful to the rural community in the amount of dollars that he has indicated? I think he said $60,000 , or whatever was allocated to them . 2694

Tuesday, April 17, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can assure him that we will instruct our Home Economists as 1 have done, and I will do it again, instruct them to fulfill the needs to the best of their ability of the total rural community. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has just finished saying that the program is for the total community. I would like to ask the Minister if this program, this service, is available to people living on Indian Reserves? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: One of the problems , Mr.

Chairman - I have had a lot of experience. I have, I believe, three Reserves in my community. I was raised by an Indian Reserve. I am very familiar with the problems that our Native people face. I grew up with many of them , and one of the problems that they do face, over the years, the last 200 or 300 years , non-Native people have been coming in and advising them on how to better themselves and so on, and it has always been a failure.

And that resentment has now grown to a position where they resent when non-Natives come in and tell them, you know, this is the way you should do this, you should do that, and I want to ask the Minister how many Home Economists are of Native descent, that can relate to those people, that relate much better than non-Natives coming in? They can relate better to their own people than they can to . . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I don't know the answer to that . MR.

ADAM: We have seen this in the education field , and we have attempted, with the BUNTEP Programs, to train Native people as teachers so that they can go back to Reserves and teach in their own schools and they can relate much better than we can to them . And I want to point out to the Minister that, you know, there are a large number of people in that area that are really in dire need of the services of a Home Economic Service , which probably are not being hardly tapped, you know, you only touch the tip of the iceberg . Because , let's be quite frank about it, white people don't relate well to Natives . MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the member brings up a good point. I understand that our Home Economists are available to the people on Indian Reserves at the request of the Reserves . There has been qu ite a lot of work done , as far as nutritional programs are concerned, with the teachers and individuals on Reserves . Again I say they are available at the request of those individuals , and he brings out a good point . It is a possibility that there is a good demand and a need for individuals of Native descent to enter into Home Economist tra ining , and that , of course , is available to all Manitobans . MR.

ADAM: Just to give you an idea, in my own constituency there probably is around 3,000 people - I am speaking of status natives. There are maybe not quite as much that are non-status , but I'm sure that you're just skimming the top of that group because of the structure of our society and the way it's set up, social status in our society that I think the Member for Lac du Bonnet was try ing to point out and that's a problem that we have to address ourselves to, whether we like it or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(d)

(1) Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the minister indicate , since there is an increase of two positions this year in the home economists, are there vacant positions in the department or are they all filled? MR. DOWNEY: Yes. Mr. Chair

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-41b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 41b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8d2f6b3b68d1502606215bf09adc17c9ece0ec05

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