� I THE LEGISLATIVE ,'\"lSEMBLY OF MANTl'Qli\"A 2:30 o'ctock, Tuesday, March 23 rd, 1965 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions MR. CLERK: The Petition of the Reverend Jacob F. Pauls and Others, praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate The Bergthaler Mennonite Church of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. HON. STEW ART E. Me LEAN (Attorney-General) (Dauphin): M3.dam Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Comcnittee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg me to present the fol­ lowing as their second Report. Your committee has considered Bills : No. 6,

An Act to amend The Department of Industry and Commerce Act; No. 12,

An Act to amend The Arbitration Act; No. 13 ,

An Act to amend The

Summary Convictions Act; No. 15,

An Act to amend The Animal Husbandry Act; No. 17,

An Act to amend The Mines and Natural Resources Department Act; No. 18,

An Act to amend The Coat of Arms, Floral Emblem and Tartan Act; No. 23 ,

An Act to amend The Education Department Act; No. 24,

An Act to amend The County Courts Act; No. 25,

An Act to amend The County Court Judges' Criminal Courts Act; No. 26,

An Act to amend The Jury Act; No. 53,

An Act to amend The Small Debts Recovery Act; No. 54,

An Act to amend The Insurance Act; No. 57,

An Act to amend The Public Libraries Act; No. 61,

An Act to amend The Health Services Act; No. 64.

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered Bill No. 43,

An Act respec ting the Care and Treat­ ment of Mentally Disordered Persons and the Custody and Control of their Estates, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments . All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education. that the Report of the Committee be received. ried.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- MADAM SPEAKER : Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to attract your attention to the gallery where there are some· 61 Grade 8 students from Windsor School under the direction of their teachers, Mrs. Cummer and Mrs. Novak . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for St. Vital. There are also 60 Grade 11 students from River East Collegiate under the direction of their teachers, Mr. Stinson and Miss Toews.

This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for Kildonan. On behalf of all members of this Legislative Assembly, I welcome you . MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, if I may make a correction, River East School Division spills over to that good constituency of Brokenhead which happens to be represented by one of my colleagues, Mr. Schreyer. MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you. Orders of the Day. MR. J. M.

FROESE (Rhine land): Madam Speaker, I don't know who. to direct the question to since the First Minister is not in his seat, but when can we expect the report of the commit­ tee that sat on the matter of the denturists? HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, that will be coming forward soon. HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to lay on the table of the House the Return to an Order of the House No. 14, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. MADAM SPEAKER : Order for Return. MR.

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before you go into Orders for Return I'd like to ad­ dress a question to the Honourable the First Minister; the Provincial Treasurer. I know he 's just now enter ing the Chamber. I regret very much that he wasn't available for me to give him notice but I would ask him -- I have observed that the regulations pertaining to the Tobacco Tax have been changed. My question to my honourable friend is: Have the regulations respect­ ing the collection of the. Tobacco Tax been changed because the First Minister is convinced that

858 Mach 23rd, 1965 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd. ) .. ... there is evasions in the collection of this tax at the present time? HON. DUFF ROBLJN (Premi er) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I don 't think I have anything to add to the statement I made at the Estimates when we discussed this item, b�t I do know that the people in the department feel that it would be wise to be more specific in the regulations and that's what's being done now. MR. PAULLEY: M1y I ask a supplemental question then to,my honourable friend?

Am I to gather then that the regulation was changed as the .r esult of mention of the situation in the House and also that some representation was maie, if not to my honourable friend, to the de­ partment respecting evasion of the tax? MR. ROBLJN: Again, I'm not aware of any, Madam Speaker. MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I notice the Minister of Agriculture is not in his seat but maybe the Minister of Public Works could answer this. I have asked on past occasions whether we could obtain maps or a list of those roads and water­ ways that have been taken over by the government.

I know that municipalities have been getting this information and I would like to get this if at all possible. MR. WEIR : Madam Speaker, general maps are being prepared as far as the roads are concerned and I will have them available in due course. I'm not in a position to answer for the Minister of Agriculture. I don't know how he stands as far as waterways are concerned. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

Has he or the government appointed a Chairman of the Manitoba Economic Consultative Board as yet? It's a month ago that we asked -- or that the question was asked on this subject. HON. GURNEY EV ANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): The answer is still "no. " MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, be fore the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney -General.

Could I ask the Honourable the Attorney -General, Madam Speaker, when he is going to share with the members of the Legislative Assembly, and through them to another wide public, the information that he has already given on TV a few evenings ago regarding an Ombudsman? MR. McLEAN: I wasn't aware that I gave very much information. MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, the honourable gentleman is unusually modest. I thought .it was most interesting and I wondered why it would be given first on TV rather than in the House? Are we to take it that some legislation dealing with that matter is imminent? MR.

ROBLJN: If my friend is asking the government's policy with respect to this matter, notice was given in the Throne Speech that the House would be asked to deal with the question. That is still our intention. MR. CAMPBELL: Was it policy then, Madam Speaker, that the Honourable the Attorney­ General was announcing on TV a few nights ago? MR. ROBLJN: I didn't have the advantage of hearing my honourable friend but I'm sure 1 it is cons istent with what we intend to do. MR. CAMPBELL: May we be informed as to when the matter will now be brought before the House seeing that it has already been brought before the public?

MR. ROBLJN: Soon. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inksl;eJ::f: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask a general question to anyone to whom it may concern. If and when I have a minute to spare on the television and I hear a speaker from either the Conservatives or the Liberal Party , are they speaking for them­ selves or the Party? MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, if I might include one other group, is my honourable friend speaking for his party? MR. PAULLEY: May I say as the Leader of his Party, Madam Speaker, I join with my colleague in wondering sometimes whethe r the other gentlemen are speaking for their respect­ ive parties.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhea d. MR. s. PETERS (E lmwoo:i): In the absence of the honourable member, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that An Order of the House do issue for a

March 23rd , 1965 859 (MR. PETERS cont'd. ) Return showing whether the Manitoba Development Fund has:· (

a) extended any loans to any commercial vertical integration type farm operations in the past 3 years; (

b) the numh9r of such loans; and .(

c) the amount of each. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. EVANS: M01dam Spaaker, I am very pleased to vote for this Order with respect to Items (a)'and (

b) as they stand on the Order Paper, atld in answer to Item (

c) I sho uld be pleased to supply the total amount of the loans involved. I have had a discussion with the Hon­ ourable Member for Brokenhead and he has indicated to me in personal conversation; and I'm sorry he's not in his seat to confirm it now, but the answer in this form wilil be satisfactory to him MR. PAULLEY: May I, on behalf of the Member for Brokenhead, Madam Speaker, ac­ cept the statement of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce:. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Meml.Jer for Brokenhead. JVIR. PETERS: May we have this matter stand, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed .r esolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster and the proposed amendment as amended by the Honourable the Member for Selkirk. The Honourable the Member for Emerson. JVIR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I would like the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand.

MADAM SPEAKE R: The adjourned debate on the proposed Resolution of the Honourable the M9mber for Inkster and the proposed amendment thereto of the Honourable the Member for St. Matthews. The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS : Could I have this matter stand please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable the Member for LaVerendrye. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (LaVerendrye): Madam Speaker, I adjourned this debate for my Leader. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, I will be c Ios ing: the debate, I believe, if I am to proceed at this time. If there are others who wish to speak, I just want to give that notice. MADAM SPEAKER: Does anyone else wish to speak? MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I would like to speak but I'm not prepared on this o:!casion to do so. MR. MOLGAT: Well does the hono urable member wish to adjourn then, Madam Speaker? MR. FROESE: Yes. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, that the debate be adjourned.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for St. George and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Member for St. Vital, and the proposed further amendment of the Honourable the Member for Gladstone. The Honourable the Member for LaVerendrye. MR. VIELFAURE: Madam Speaker, I do not rise to speak on this motion just because as was sai.d in he re it is po;:mlar or to make "political hay, " but because I really think and am convinced that this is a very unfair tax.

As a matter of fact, I think I was one of the first memb­ ers in this House to mention it at the last session. If you take for example the small farmers who use oil to heat the house, the chicken barn, or the hog barn, or the small shop, this cre­ ates quite a burden on them, and it is the very people that we intend to relieve by the rebate which is to be financed by this particular tax on fuel oil.

Now in many cases I am convinced that the money they will receive in rebate will have been paid by themselves by the one cent on the fuel tax itself, so I think that it is absolutely not serving the purpose that it was intended to and it is just adding a burden on the people that we intend to relieve by a rebate. Now we have been told in this House that we on this side were just sticking on some items, that we were just trying to make "political hay" out of this. I certainly don't feel this way.

I think this is a very unjust tax on some people and the burden is being imposed on the wrong people because they are the ones that will be paying what they will actually ge:t in their rebate.

86 0 March 23rd, 1965 (M R. VIELFAURE cont'd. ) I am sure that --my honourable friend from Churchill says that this protest is really not from the small wage earner but rather from the small politician and that there should be a tax on hay that these politicians are trying to make out of it. Well I want to assure my honourable friend that I am not interested in making hay out of this tax and there are a lot of people in this province right now who are very concerned about this tax.

They are very concerned about the excessive spending of this government and that they have to pay for it in the way of a fuel oil tax, and I think there is m".lch more than the few members on this side that are crying "wolf" right now as far as this tax is concerned. Also, they charge that it's not that bad because the oil companies have reduced the one cent on fuel oil. To me that just doesn't stand because certainly I think I know the oil compan­ ies and they are not around to subsidize the government.

If they reduce the fuel oil by one cent, it is in order to improve their sales and certainly not to take care of the tax that was imposed by the government. Therefore, if the tax wouldn't have been there, the consumers would have been able to buy their fuel oil for one cent less, and therefore, as far as I am concerned, this argument doesn't stand. So I will certainly repeat that I am strongly opposed to this tax, and I hope this government will see fit to remove this tax on fuel oil because it is a very charge against the people that we intend to relieve of property tax by the rebate.

I'm sure that in many cases the amount that these very people in the low income group will be getting back in rebate, they will have more th an paid with their tax on fuel oil alone. In many of the low income bracket people and where they live in low assessed land, the amount of rebate they will get will just not be any more than what they will have paid by their fuel oil tax. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. LAURENT DESJAR DINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, that the debate be adjourned.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert-Pla ins and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. The Honourable the Member for Souris-Lansdowne. MR. M. E.

McKELLAR (S ouris-Lansdowne): Madam Speaker, I am going to be very short on my reply on this resolution, partly because in the session in 1963 I think the First Minister explained very fully the differences between the Comptroller- General and an Auditor-General, and I think he stated in no uncertain terms that in Manitoba today we have a man acting in the position of Comptroller- General which serves our needs very well. Now I'd like to quote here from Hansard on Page 415.

The Honourable Member for Ethel­ bert- Plains, he says here in the third paragraph, "Now there is a big difference between the Comptroller- General and the Auditor-General. The Comptroller- General is responsible to the Lieutenant- Governor-in-C ouncil

whereas the Auditor-General is responsible to the legislative body and naturally answers to them. Now when he would report, what would he report on? He would report on any neglect or omission to collect money. He would report on any public money not duly accounted for; whether appropriations were exceeded or used in a manner not authorized; and lastly, if there were any fraud in the process. " Well, Madam Speaker, I think then the duties of the Comptroller-General that we have in our province today, he does a free audit, a post-audit, which in my opinion serves the purpose very well.

Most of us know on looking on our cheques that we receive, his signature is there and I would consider that before he has authorized expenditure of that money that he has approved of it and checked every aspect that needed to be checked upon. So I would consider, Madam Speaker. that we in Manitoba are served very well by having our Comptroller- General look after the affairs of our province and I would ask the members to vote against this resolution. MR. SAUL CHER NIACK, Q. C. , (St. John's): Madam Speaker, I feel bound to speak very briefly just on the points raised by the last speaker.

It seems to me that he overlooked the im­ portant distinction between our present Compcroller, who I am sure does an excellent job, and what is proposed here for an Auditor-General. The Comptroller's task, as I understand it, is to make sure that monies are spent in ac­ cordance with a budget allowed and after same has been approved and certified by the responsible minister or other person having authority to approve of an expenditure. What that is is a very important task, and that is to make sure that monies are spent in accordance with a budget and I ..

Ma.rch 23rd, 1965 861 (MR. CHERN IACK cont'd. ) .. .... the law. As ll understand the proposal dealing with the appointment of an Auditor- General, which is really what we're discussingtoday, it is to give an objective person an opportunity to view the method in which monies are being spent on behalf of the people of this province and to indicate whether or not same is being spent in a proper and careful manner. The question of prudence is important.

The question of proper methods of obtaining the lowest possible price, or the best services, or the best returns for the money would be a matter for the Auditor- General to review and report on. And certainly the last speaker must realize that when reports are brought in to the Federal House from the Auditor- General they are brought in with a view to indicate where there has been waste or error, bad judgment, which could be corrected in the future. I think he must know that our Comptroller in this province has no right to indicate that there was a bad purchase made, for example.

All he can say is money was spent in accordance with the budget which was passed, and approved and certified by the person in authority so to do. This is a very good check on how monies are spent, not whether or not they are spent legally but whether they are spent prudently, and no government need be ashamed of having a review of this nature because we know that when you have an operation the size of our government, this type of review, a constant review, is beneficial to the people of the province.

I would therefore like to suggest that this resolution be viewed from the standpoint of this second review, this second opportunity to inspect, and be looked at in that light: rather than in the light of redundancy of the position of the present Comptroller. MR. GRAY: Madam Speaker, I intend to support this motion because it won't do any harm but it may do a lot of good. When I was a young boy, I was troubled about my E:tomach and my grandmother put a hot plate on my stomach and then she said a prayer .

I asked her whether it would help and she said, I don't know if it will help but it won't do any harm. l think that's the very same thing. I think perhaps if people think security and a watchdog of the treasury in Man­ itoba is not sufficient, the extra expense is very little, why should they come up to beefs and bouquets every evening and criticize because I am not in favour of something that apparently I have .. .. ... . .. .. ..... . I have a story where there was a sentry post at the residence of the Prime Minister of Israel, Ben- Gurion.

He came out and said to the sentry, "Have you had your breakfast?" He says "No." He says, "You go in the house and have your breakfast and I'll stand here to main­ tain the dignity of the country. " But as it is, I think there should not be any opposition to it be­ cause we are dealing with a certain people who are very suspicious from day to day on almost anything. If I send a letter in to a father or mother who had another child as a Member of the Legislature -- for my future elections -- somebody suspects you want another foot. All right, supposing I do, that's what it is. It doesn't do any more harm.

I don't know what good it will do, but i:[ there is a demand from the public to know that somebody is a watchdog for the Provincial Treasurer, let's have it. MH. JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion MH. GRAY: .. .. .. make the decision -- carry the motion -- I would like to know how long will this resolution come to adjourn the debates, because we are on the fourth day of spring and we cannot stay too much longer. I think perhaps the people should be ready to speak.

MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Emerson. M H. T ANCHAK: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that we got a brochure on this mat­ ter yesterday, I would like a little more time to compare it and would like the matter to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Attorney- General. MH.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, with your permission and the permission of the House, I would like to have this stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Logan. The Honourable the Member for Roblin. MJR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Madam Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the Honourable Member from Logan for bringing this matter into the House and introducing it to us

862 March 23rd, 1965 (MR. ALEXANDER cont'd. ) ... so we could debate and discuss it, because I think it is a mat­ ter that has to be discussed. To use a favourite term, I think we have to enter into dialogue on it, because there are very extreme and opposite opinions on the subject. Before entering into it, I would like to give my definition of it -- of automation. I would like to define it as a trans­ fer of work, possibly from man to a machine, or a change of pattern or production, or a change of method :>f manufacture brought about by technological methods. As I said, there are many different opinions and many different attitudes on this subject and I'd like to quote from an

article or a press release recently in the Winnipeg Free Press where there was a meeting on this, and Mr. Goodman had one statement on the matter where he said that, "Workers unemployed because of automation are going to fill the madhouses of the nation. " "Speaking in a panel discussion on the problems of increasing leisure, Sam Good­ man said, 'many unskilled and semi-skilled men are being driven to frustration because they can no longer find jobs. ' At the same seminar, Mr. R. 0.

Hunter, Vice-Presi dent and Sec­ retary of the Great West Life Assurance, said, 'automation did not necessarily put people out of jobs. It is a bogey that two percent of the population can produce for 98 percent. With prop­ er education, employment can go hand in glove with automation. No one in our firm has lo3t a job because of automation. Our staff is larger and many persons have been re-trained for higher calibre jobs. He said the possibility of new expansion in automation and job opportunity I is unlimited'.

" So there, Madam Speaker, we have two radically different approaches to the subject of ' automation and I'd like to take a period of time now and go back and consider the impact and the effect of automation in the past, using the definition that I gave in the beginning. And here I'd like to bring the attention of the members to the development of the loom, the bobbin and the shuttle, which changed the whole pattern of textile development in Britain from the old method of hand weaving and really developed that country as the leader in the textile industry.

The further development of machines and the lead of Britain in this regard led to the factory system which brought about the Industrial Revolution in Britain, which developed it as the major trading nation in that hiEstorical period and which has had a great effect on the develop- ment of the world. This, Madam Speaker, was automation. To come a little closer to the future, I'd like to use the example of the Automotive Industry when the old gas less buggy first challenged the carriage industry, and then further automation brought about the principle of the assembly line.

This industry has continued and its develop- ment has continued to automate and its auxiliary industries of steel, rubber and other side businesses have continued to automate until we have today the development of the automotive industry as we know it.

I don't think we can even possibly begin to analyze the effect and the impact that the development of the automobile, and the fact that it was made economically avail- able to so many people through automation, we can't estimate the effect that this has had on the economy, the development, and the whole social life and the whole pattern of life in this conti- I nent. I would also like to take the example of agriculture.

Since 1941 we in Manitoba have been losing approximately 700 per year decline in the number of farmers engaged in agriculture, while at the same time the output and production per man has gone up two and a half times. We look at the figures on investments in machinery and equipment on our farms and in 1941 it was a total of $59 million for an average of $1, 000 per farmer. In 1961 it is $272 million or an average of $6, 300 per farmer. The figures in combines themselves give a more radical picture of automation on the farm. In 1941 there were 1, 714 and in 1961 , 23 , 662.

I think also, Madam Speaker, we can look at the rise and the recovery of West Germany, and particularly Northern Italy as well, after the Second World War, where these areas have come back and recovered as competitive industrial powers. They have challenged and have provided very strong competition to our part of the hemisphere. They started from scratch. They started from nothing in many cases and had to establish an industry, but this meant that they started with modern machinery and they started with modern up-to -date methods. They did in effect, Madam Speaker, not have to go through a process of evolution.

They started at a very advanced technological position and this enabled them to oifer a very serious challenge to manufacturing in our part of the world and led very substantially to their economic recovery. So, Madam Speaker, I would like to by this means point out that automation is not new. I don't think automation is a thing to be feared really. There are many benefits that can be de­ rived from automation. It is also though not something to be taken lightly because there are many benefits we can get from automation as well. I think too often some people in their anxiety I •

March )�3rd, 1965 863 (MR. ALEXANDER cont'd. ) ..... to theoretically forecast conditions fifty years from now let themselves get carried away, and I think this has presented in some cases a wrongly painted picture as to what might possibly happen in the future with automation, because I don't think we can take examples of some of the more readily adaptable fields for automation and extend them and use them as a means of projecting what conditions are going to be like fifty years from now.

I would say, Madam Speaker, that one thing I think that history has proven to us about automation is that we cannot hold it back. We cannot maintain a status quo w:lth it because if we use it for this purpose and it had been used this way in the past, we would still be weaving by hand and we would still be manufacturing buggy whips and we would still be farming with horses. I think on the contrary that we must use automation and we must make its benefits available to all.

I think we must use it for the increased production it can br�ing about, for the cheaper production it can bring about, and particularly to meet the great need and the great de­ mand in other parts of the world for our production. I think it odd that we have been unable to realize that this age has opportunities to supply the wants and the needs of over two- thirds of the world's population and raise their living stand­ ards by making available to them, on an economic basis, our means of produetion.

To me, it is inconceivable that in this affluent society , in this high standard living society that we Ire living in today, that we say our major problem is leisure time. Madam Speaker, I can't reconcile my­ self to this situation when, as I say, we can see the requirements and the needs all over the rest of the world for our production and our products.

Some people say, Madam Speaker, that if at the present time we have 100 men on a 40- hour week doing a particular job, producing a certain product, and if by automation the number of men :is reduced to 50 men on a 40-hour week, then these people advocate that we should keep the 100 men at the same rate of pay and only work a 20-h our week, but get the same pay as we would have a 40-hour week for. Madam Speaker, I feel myself, that this is a form of feather bedding..

I think that these 50 men who are not now required to perform the same volume of production must be re-e ducated; they must be retrained; and they must be re-·employed in use­ ful production. In other words, we must use, I feel, automation to increase our production. Some people say there's no point in doing this, we can't distribute what we're producing now. I feel that this is the great challenge. I feel that necessity is the mother of invention, and if we produce, I think we must force our society, we must force our economical theorists to devise methods of distribution. It must come.

I'd like to quote from the same seminar where Miss Anne Dumoulin, Executive Director of the Community Welfare Planning Council, called for a change in attitude which would cease to • make a god of work. And she says further, "The society has an attitude of snobbery about the way people spend their free time. " And this is a quotation of her statement, "What makes beer drinking; any worse than basket weaving if that person gets satisfaction? " Well, Madam Speaker, this is the attitude, part of the attitn<le that I'm talking about, where we feel that our goal today is personal, selfish self-satisfaction.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't think basket weaving might be a productive means of passing one's time,. but I certainly think that there are other means of production which must be available to the individual where he feels that he is doing something of value, producing something of value for somebody else, for the community and the world in general.

There's no doubt, Madam Speaker, that automation in the past and in the future has and will bring about changes in skills; changes in our consumption patterns; chang;e in our interna­ tional trade patterns; change in our social relationships, not only within our community and within our own country , but relationships between peoples in the world at large. As well, Madam Speaker, automation issues a great many challenges to us all, a challenge to our social institutions, a challenge to our churches to try and get people to develop a sense of value, a sense of worth, a sense of worth of what they are doing.

I think in many ways we've fallen greatly behind in this that we haven't yet managed to adapt to the changes that the assembly line brought about in working conditions where a person could no longer identify himself with the ultimate end of his product.

And there is a great challenge here, I feel, in our social institutions to bring about a change in values and a means of identification for the individual where he can still feel that he is of some value, that he is of some need, that somebody is actually using and getting benefit from his work, from what he is doing, and from what he is producing. !.think, Madam Speaker, as well, that automation challenges labour, management and

864 March 23r d, 1965 (MR. ALEXANDER cont'd. ) .... . government to 'ldapt and adjust to new conditions that auto- mation is bringing about. I think, Madam Speaker, that man and his history has proven that I he has developed to the point where he is today because of his ability to adjust and adapt to new conditions. There are two areas, I feel, that we can emphasize at the present moment where government, labour and management can aid in this period of adjustment.

The first is in cre- ating a favourable climate for developing an expanding economy which will provide new jobs for people coming onto the labour force. And I would here say that in Manitoba, the things I have in mind are examples like the Manitoba COMEF Report and Survey, the Economic Con- sultative Board, the Manitoba Development Corporation, the Manitoba Design Institute, the Research Institution, the Export Corporation, the Agricultural Credit, and agricultural research projects.

These I think, Madam Speaker, are fields whereby government working hand in hand with labour and management are trying to make available new jobs in the economy of the prov- ince. I MR. PETERS: You.'re sure doing a poor job of it. MR. ALEXANDER: Well that's a matter of opinion. MR. PETERS: A lot oi people have the same opinion. MR. ALEXANDER: Maybe you can help us do a better job. MR. PETERS: We're trying. MR. ALEXANDER: Well, Madam Speaker, the second area I think is in education and retraining. I'd like to quote a little

article that was in the Manitoba Co-operator a week or so ago when Education Week was being honoured in Manitoba. They say, "Automation has intensi­ fied the need for office workers with specialized training. In the business world of today there seems to be no place for the untrained worker. Business training can be used as an entering wedge into almost any field of employment. Students graduating from high schools in rural or urban areas who do not wish to continue their studies in a university can find commercial col­ leges and technical schools in almost any large city.

With techniques becoming more and more complex, specialized training is a necessity. More young people are being turned away from job opportunities every day because they lack the specialized training needed. In many cases these students have a substantial education but lack the skill in one particular field. " Madam Speaker, I think the increased emphasis on technical vocational training in this province is one area where the government is taking positive action to nelp people to adjust and adapt to the conditions that might or are at the present time being brought about by automation.

I can remember in the brief presented by the Premier in 1960 to the Federal-Provincial Conference where he said at that time, over four years ago, that the demands for technical and vocational training brought about by automation required immediate and increased assistance to the prov­ ince from the Federal Government. I think we have to give them credit for accepting this princi­ ple; we have to give them credit for the help that they have given us; but I think we have to also emphasize that the problem is still with us and much work still remains to be done.

The program of in-p lant training is another method of assisting people to change their oc­ cupation, to ::: hange their trade and develop new skills. So, Madam Speaker, I feel that we must continue to emphasize the need for an expanded educational program, for more training not only for young people but also for a large number of adults who find it necessary to change their voca­ tion and change their skills so that they can fit in to our society and partake themselves of the ability to ·oring about more useful, more economic production.

So, Madam Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Rupertsland, that the resolution be amended by striking ou the words "of every Manitoban" in the second line of the first paragraph and substitute therefore the words "in Manitoba"; and by striking out all the words following the word "solve" in the second paragraph and substituting therefore the following: "And

whereas the gradual process of manufal work being transferred from man to machine throughout a wide range of industrial and commercial undertakings and occupations has been going on for many years; and

whereas this process now commonly referred to as automation is resulting in the necessity for employees to acquire new skills and change their occupation; and

whereas the Government of Manitoba has developed a comprehensive pro­ gram of action designed (

a) to maintain a high level of employment so that employees affected by automation would have a good opportunity to obtain alternative employment, and (

b) to expand and improve our educational facilities, including training and retraining in schools and on the job with a view to developing a work force that is capable of adapting to changing job requirements; therefore

be it resolved that the Government of Manitoba be encouraged to pursue its programs in connection with attaining and maintaining a high level of employment and the best possible I I •

March 23rd, 1965 865 (MR. ALEXANDER cont'd. ) educational and training facilities as the most effective means of coping with the problems attendant to automation, and that participation in these programs by labour and management be continued and expanded where necessary, and that the matter of automation be kept under continuing study by the government and its agencies in co -operation with labour and management. " MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, would the honourable mem'Jer permit a question? How does the honourable member propose to distribute increased production, especially farm pro­ duction? MR.

ALEXANDER: Madam Speaker, as I said in my speech, I'm a believer in the fact that necessity is the mother of invention and I said that one of the main challeng;es facing our theoretical economist, one of the main challenges facing our society as a whole, is a means of distributing our production to those segments of our rural population which are not receiving it at the present time. I'm afraid I cannot qualify as an expert who is able on one or two minutes to be able to give you a complete resume of how that might be done.

That's beyond my scope but I think it is within my scope to point out the terrific need and assign the responsi­ bility. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. GRAY: Madam Speaker, in my humble opinion the resolution of the Honourable Member from Logan was the most important one that I have heard for years in this House -­ very important, timely and urgent. When the Honourable Member from Dauphin got up to speak -- Roblin, I'm sorry -- got up to speak, I made a couple of very complimentary notes for him, but I'm sorry that I cannot repeat it now.

There was a story told by the Prime Minister of Israel who had to have a sentry, a soldier , watching his building. He came out of the building and he said to this soldier, "Have you had your breakfast? " He says "No. " He says, "You go and have your breakfast and I'll stand here in order to comply with the rules and regulations. " I think that this was entirely the last half of his speech -- I hope he'll excuse me -- was entirely away from -- not from the. wilderness -- but you remember the phonographs where someone listened to His Master's Voice.

He absolutely changed in a few minutes the wonderful, florious. idea that was had in connection with this resolution. Then he comes up with an amendment which kills him, kills the government and kills the idea of the resolution. MR. ALEXANDER: Madam Speaker, on a point of privilege, I'd just like to assure the honourable member that I didn't listen to any "master's voice" except my inner self. It's my voice and my speech. MR. GRAY: Anything you say, I accept, because I don't want no arguments.

The amend­ ment is all A-1 , and I don't think the members will believe me as this is to wash down the resolution, which is a good one, but the "powers that be" hate to accept it but then the other way they hate to reject it, so naturally they move an amendment. I think, Madam Speaker, we are nearing an age of automation and we don't have to fool ourselves. We need a time when they didn't need me, the Honourable Member of Inkster to dig the sewer with a shovel and a pick, which I did, but they have machinery to do it.

They came to a time when we 're trying to make the lives of the individual easier and for them to take up the rest of the time for something higher and better -- reading books, discussing peace all over the world, trying to get peace all over the world. We don't have to fight each other day after day. When we come in for a cup of coffee in the morning at restaurants we hear that a certain group kilLed so many people and certain groups killed so many people and it's killing and killing. We got so used to it that we don't pay any attention to it, we just drink our coffee in peace and freedom and so on.

We don •t even worry about it. We have a resolution here which I think is historical. I don't know whether I should read it to you all -- you all read it -- and for anyone to come in and make an amendment to such a wonderful meaningful resolution in my humble opinion is to kill it and not to improve it. And anybody can kill; anybody can shoot; anybody can accuse the other one of everything in the world, but I'd like to hear at least one of the majority members of the Conservative group here to say one good word about something which is good irrespective of where it comes from.

So I say that I'm greatly disappointed with the amendment and I hope the members of this Legislature will defeat the amendment , not because what it says it is, but because it was made for one purpose, and that purpose was to kill the resolution of my colleague, the Honourable Member :[rom Logan. who submitted it. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member

866 Marc h 23rd, 1965 (MR. WRIGHT cont'd. ) ... . for Elmwood, that this debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and upon a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEA KER: The adjourned debate on the proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Member for Churchill. The Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam, the member for Assiniboia is out of the House, but if anyone else wishes to speak we have no objection. MADAM SPEAKE R: Anyone wishing to speak? MR. GUTTORMSON: May we have the matter stand then, please.

MADAM SPEAKER : The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Member for St. Vital. MR. FRED GROVES (St. Vital): Madam Speaker, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Honourable Member from Inkster, I would ask this matter be again allowed to stand, but I have no objection if somebody else wishes to speak. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Member for Morris. The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, while we on this side of the House can find nothing really distasteful in the contents of the resolution that is before us or in the recipes that are contained in what might be cal led "Harry's Hash and Helpful Household Hints Book" -- I'm sorry, Madam Speaker, that my honourable friend from Morris is not in his seat this afternoon -- frankly, Madam, we on this side of the House are at a loss to know why this resolution is on the Order Paper, and we feel that it would not be there if certain government members felt that the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Minister of Agriculture were doing an ef­ fective job.

Now the last resolution that was introduced, I believe by my honourable friend the memb­ er for Morris, resulted in him becoming Chairman of a commission that was appointed, and I must confess, Madam Speaker, that I not only sat on that commission for about 12 months I think, but I had a most enjoyable time when I was there. That was the Manitoba Hog Marketing Commission.

And, Madam Speaker, if it is the intention of the government to set up a com­ mission and appoint my honourable friend from Morris Chairman of this one, I am serving notice right now that I want to be on it and I'm serving notice to my Leader, I'm sorry he isn't here, that I insist on being a member of it because I maintain that I am just as much of an authority, just as much of a gourmet -- is that the right pronunciation, Madam Speaker -­ as my honourable friend from Morris, and surely after we spend two or three years travelling over in Italy and all over the place surveying their menus over there and sampling their wines and stuff like that, that when we return we will be able to make a report that will amaze the House.

Now, Madam Speaker, let's examine the content of the resolution that is before us and let's get right down to the meat of the resolution and the various recipes contained in it for tripe, etc. etc. The first paragraph as you will know is, and I quote, "Whereas Manitoba produces food products that are superior in quality and flavour" -- well it doesn't say that they are superior to what, and that is the point, Madam Speaker, superior to what?

Now I don't think anybody can quarrel with the fact that we do have a fine quality of most eating products, but I think that I would be safe in making a bet that the average person, the average Manitoban or the average tourist would have some difficulty in telling whether he was eating bread from flour that was made in Saskatchewan or made in Manitoba. I think even the Honourable Member for Morris and myself, who are more or less experts, would have some difficulty in telling any difference between fresh frozen peas that were grown in Saskatchewan and those that were grown in Manitoba.

We would have some difficulty in doing that. Now as regards the second paragraph, I must confess that outside of one item, I don't know what particular foods that my honourable friend is referring to. He says, "And

whereas several foods are characteristic of Manitoba and have made this Province famou:>" -- well now I think it's generally recognized that Winnipeg Goldeyes are characteristic of Manitoba by reason of the fact that Lake Winnipeg is in Manitoba.

Now I don't know what other dishes are characteristic of Manitobans outside of the fact of course that my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP suggested that there was enough tripe flying around in the Assembly here at times that probably tripe was typical of Manitoba, but apart from Winnipeg Goldeyes, I can't think of any particular dish that is really characteristic of Manitoba. Now I must say this, Madam Speaker, that in days gone by there were plenty of foods that

March 23r d, 1965 867 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd. ) .. .. . were characteristic of Manitoba, characteristic of the western provinces anyway, and I refer to Beavertail soup, and I think that some of the members who went up to Churchill two or three years ago were treated to this delicacy. I must confess that I didn't go up on that trip and I'm sorry that I didn't. I know that presently -- I can't say that I have sampled it -- but I know that a lot of our northern Indians still eat: skunk stew. It doesn't sound very appetizing but it maybe tastes all right -- maybe it tastes all right.

The last time that I had the pleasure of eating with my honourable friend the Minister of Health and my honourable friend the member for St.

Vital, my honourable friend the member for Lac du Bonnet, and who else -- two or three of them -- the last time that -- (Interjection) -- it is a bad combination I know, but we ate down in the Factors Room and I picked out what I considered to be one of the characteristic dishes on the menu and it was Buffalo -- what was it -- Buffalo stew or something of this kind and the waiter told us that this was the first time since they opened the Factors Room in the Fort Garry that they had the pleasure of serving buffalo there.

Now these are characteristics of Manitoba, Madam Speaker, these type of dishes: deer, deer steak, moose steak, buffalo pie, buffalo steak. skunk stew, wild ducks and wild geese, wild turkey and all these things, beavertails -- yes I mentioned that -- frogs legs, but where in M:mitoba can you go and enjoy any one of them? Where can you go? Now at the risk of being thrown in jail I'm going to tell you of a little story, a true one, and I was involved.

I attended a little gathering in Erickson in the fall of the year, at which time they served wild duck, and pickerel I think, and Lake Trout and a lot of the native dishes. My guess is that the fellow who served them up shouldn't have been doing so because it was probably against the law to do it, but I must confess that it was a wonderful meal. But if there was some way of treating our American tourists to dishes of these kinds, then I venture to say they would come back and they would stay longer than the one day that they are presently doing.

Now, Madam Speaker, my honourable friend the member for Morris talks about New York Dressed Turkeys and New York Cuts of Beef, suggesting that both of them are imported here from New York.

Now I am amazed that my honourable friend who professes to be a farmer, or certainlly represents a farming area, would get up in the House and display h:is ignorance of farming matters in this fashion, because I believe that even the Minister of Industry and Com­ merce who admits at times that his knowledge of farming operations are rather limited, my guess is that he knows that a New York cut steak is just a name that the trade applies to the way a steak is cut, that is you can go into Hy's Steak Loft and get a -- (Interjection) -- and yes, New York Dressed Turkeys. Do you know what this is, Madam Speaker?

You would know be­ cause you have certainly come frorr. a farming area. It means a turkey that has not been evis­ cerated. A New Yo:.. ·k Turkey is one that has not been eviscerated, that's what it means. It doesn't mean that it was brought in from New York, but my honourable friend the Member for Morris suggests in his speech that they are brought in from New York. Ask my honourable friend the Member for Emerson. He raises .more turkeys than all of the people in the Assembly could eat in five years. I think he grew about 24,000 of them last year. He knows something about turkeys.

However, Madam Speaker , the whole point is that my honourable friend is making a ter­ rific condemnation of his honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and we say on this side of the House that there is real justification for that, b:1t what we can't under­ stand is why the Honourable Member for Morris is doing it. MR. PETERS: He's preaching for a call. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well that could be it, Madam Speaker. They say he's preaching for a call, and I've already said that if it is the intention oi the governmeat to sel =.:tp a· .) )mmis:3lon · then I for one want to be on it.

Now let us suppose that it would be helpful and practical -- and I'm going to confess right now, Madam Speaker, that I don't mind going along with this resolution and we will probably end up voting for it. There may be an amendment or something to it, but we'll probably go along voting for it. As my honourable friend from Inkster just said a little while ago, while it doesn't maybe do any good, it doesn't do any harm, and it's one of those kind of resolutions. But let us suppose that it might be very helpful.

I wond2r if my honourable friend who was also cnairman of the commission that I referred to , that is the Hog Marketing Commission, I wonder does he realize that it would present certain problems. Why? Because, and I want to quote from his report because this report, Madam Speaker, was always called the Shewman report -·- not mine but his -- the Shewman report -- the Shewman report. Mr. Schreyer's name is on there along with mine, but it was referred to in all of the papers a.nd everything else

868 March 23rd, 1965 (MR. SHOEMAKE cont'd. ) ... as the Shewman report, and reading from page 2 of the sum­ mary of that report, I quote, "In 1964" -- example it says -- "it is estimated at 183 , 000 slaughter cattle and 259, 000 slaughter hogs moved into Manitoba from the two other provinces. Most of these animals were slaughtered in plants located in Winnipeg before moving on in the form of red meat to eastern markets for consumption, and in 1960, 49 percent of the cattle and 33 percent of all the hogs slaughtered in Manitoba came from Saskatchewan and Alberta.

" Now, Madam Speaker, you can appreciate how difficult it would be with 49 percent of all the cattle slaughtered in Winnipeg and 33 percent of all the hogs that are slaughtered in Win­ nipE<g coming from other provinces, how in the world -- how in the world could a restaurant set up a refrigerator or two or three refrigerators and keep only Manitoba products in the one and then the run-of -the-mill in the other ones? It would be rather difficult in light of the fact that 50 percent of the meat that is slaughtered in Winnipeg comes from other provinces.

How­ ever, as I suggested before, there is no doubt but what we will support this resolution con­ demning my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Well, my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce, as you know, Mad­ am Speaker, tabled a- - he didn't table it -- it was mailed out, an Information Services Bul­ letin, so it's nice to quote from this source.

It emanates from the Department of the Provincial Secretary dated January 15, 1965 - - "where tourists see Manitoba in record numbers. 11 Ma:l­ am Speaker, I mentioned this when I was speaking on the Throne Speech, and this report says that one and a half million visitors spent $45 million in Manitoba in 1964. I said at that time that it wasn't too difficult to figure out how much they were spending per tourist because that worked out to a nice round figure of $30. 00. If you divide 45 million by a million and a half, in my books it's an even Steven $3 0. 00 -- no cents.

Now back in the good old days of 1950 ... . MR. PETERS: Not '58? MR. SHOEMAKER: Not '58, Madam Speaker, but in '50. It is interesting to note that the tourist of that day was spending $3 8. 00, and the dollar was worth something in those days, in 1950. They were spending $3 8.0 0 and of course my honourable friend would certainly love to know where I got that information from, I know, and I don't blame him.

I'm pleased to in­ form the House that it is the Annual Report of the Department of Industry and Commerce and Manitoba Development Authority for the period ending March 31, 1963, and I won't be asked to have this tabled, I don't suppose, because it's already been laid on the table, this one. But I'll refer you to Page 32 and it reports in 1950, 581, 000 tourists in Manitoba spent $22 million, for an average of 37 point something, but it is 38 cents -- 38 dollars. Now the point is, that back in 1950 they were spending $38. 00 per tourist; today my honourable friend admits that they are only spending $30. 00.

That is kind of discour�ging. Now what is ay is, Madam Speaker, what in the world is the use of preparinga nice dinner, pre­ paring a nice dinner of superior quality goods and having it served up well in some of our wonderful eating establishments, and then having nobody come for dinner . That •s exactly the position we •re in now -- (lnterj ection)-- Well, I didn •t say I was going to pay for the dinner, Madam Speaker. I know my honourable friend would come ifl would offer to pay the bill.

But the point is that if the touri sts that are coming, as my honourable friend the Minister says in such large numbers, are only spending $30. 00 a piece, they •re sure not staying very long in our province. They 're not eating at all. They 're not staying for dinner.

Now the last figure th at I was able to obtain in the library on the subject matter ofthe volume of highwavtraffic entering Canada or travelling vehicle permits -- on travelling vehicle per;mits·, Madam Speaker -- the reason that this is difficult to read is that the library stamp is stamped right over top it, and I'm not complaining about that -- it's dated March 9, 1965. This was the last one that I was able to obtain and it is for the month of January, and I suppose that th at is the last one that was issued by the DBS.

But there's some interesting and alarming statistics on here, because it is noted that comparing January of this year to January of 1964, that the number of people entering Manitooa is down 16 percent -- down 16 percent. It's also interesting to note that 69. 4 percent of the people entering Manitoba stayed for one day. That's what it says in the DBS report here. The percent that were in for one day in 1964, 69. 4 percent. So I think that this clearly points up what my honourable friend the minister has been saying all the time, that they're not staying long enough; they're only spending $30. 00.

We've got to do something to get them to stay longer, get them to stay not only for dinner but get them to stay for several meals. If we can encourage them to come long enough to eat one meal, no doubt that alone will encourage them to come back and spend some more money. Now, Madam Speaker, I have before me a bulletin, just a one sheet bulletin put out by

March :l3rd, 1965 869 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd. ) .. .. . .. Industry, the Canadian Manufacturers Association, and I'm just going to quote a short paragraph here. It says, "Travellers Deficit. Big, wide and wonderful as Canada is, a growing number of Canadians still evidently prefer to take them­ selves abroad. Pity, " it says, "b·.tt there it is. The latest figures out of Ottawa show that last year travelling Canadians spent a cool $627 million in other countries , up nearly five per­ cent over 1959. This was nearly twice the sum spent in Canada by U. S. tourists." So, we're a way, way off balance.

Something has got to be done. Now. Madam Speaker, my honourable friend the Minister published a little three page propaganda sheet back on November 6, 1959. I like quoting what my honourable friend says and then there's no argument about the authority. -- (Interjection) -- "Straight from the horse's mouth, " so my honourable friend sa ys. It is headed, "Manitoba Mirrored by Tourist Replies.

" And I quote again, "Manitoba Mirrored by Tourist Replies." Now that is a heading that you would expect my honourable friend to use because-- but anyway. anyway the Min­ ister is reporting on the certain replies that came back from American tourists as a result of questionnaires that were left at motels. hotels, eating places , etcetera, etcetera. I'm quoting here from this propaganda sheet. "The Minister said that the volume of re­ plies was sufficient to warrant their use as a basis for factual appraisal of the tourists' opin...: ions about Manitoba.

In addition to answering 20 direct questions , each respondant was asked to submit criticism or suggestions as the result of their visit, and Mr. Evans was careful to stress the fact that these opinions raported as received did not necessarily reflect the point of view of his department. " Well that would be understandable. "Sample comments include" -- this is what the tourists were saying about Manitoba - ­ "Hotelkeepers could certainly be more courteous." That 's one comment . It said, "We met some very nice people and some who seemed resentful. Why, I d::m 't know. " Mr.

Evans said that the tourist respondents threw a series of'roundhouse rights' at Mani­ toba drilvers and traffic laws. He suggested that resident drivers show more consideration when a licence plate from another province or state flashes by. 'Remember that these people are driving under unfamiliar driving conditions ,' he said. "Tourist comments included bad traffic control on Winnipeg's main streets. 'In all my travels across Canada', one said, 'you have the most discourteous drivers I've ever met. ' Mr. Evans said that a great marry tourists complained of the high motel rates charged in Manitoba.

" Now I hope that most of these complaints have been dealt with by my honourable friend because he was in receipt of them , and I say that they must be corrected in order to encourage these people to come back and spend -- stay for dinner, stay for breakfast, stay overnight, and spend the week with us. Something has got to be done, so I can understand, Madam Speak­ er, my honourable friend the member for Morris being as concerned as we are over the inefficiency of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Now we on this side of the House, Madam Speaker -- incidentally, Madam Speaker, just in last night 's paper, this is pretty recent information , the Winnipeg Tribune. Monday, March 22nd, 1965 , and no doubt most of the members read it, particularly the people opposite, they would read the Tribune from front to back, and it is headed, "Mani.tobans Ignoring their Own Province", and the opening sentence is, "Who sees Manitoba first or knows it best? Not Mani­ tooans that's for sure.

Ask the operators of 300 motels and hunting and fishing lodges that dot the province and they'll tell you that US tourists make up 90 percent of their customers. Some resorts have never played host to a Manitoban," this

article says. Well it's bad enough, Madam Speaker, to not be able to encourage people to come in from outside of the provinc e but it's even worse if you can't get them to shift around a little in their ovm province and see it. I must confess that I have been, by the nature of my work and de­ sire to see the province, I have been all the way from Melita to Churchill and back more than once, so I'm not one in this category. Now speaking about the quality of the products that we grow within our boundaries, I have absolutely no quarrel.

I said at the beginning, Madam Speaker, that we do grow a fair quality of product -- a fair quality of product -- not perfect by any means. I have before me , Madam Speaker, and you will have too no doubt, a brief that was presented to us by the Manitoba Stock Growers on February 26, 1963. It says on the one that I have that it was presented to the Hon­ ourable George Hutton, Minister of Agriculture, but the group met with us I remember very well and I want to just quote you what they say and what concerned them.

"Our Association is of the opinion that there is still a great deal to be done to Improve the quality of our cattle. It is dis­ couraging to say the least to see the large percentage of trash cattle that pass through the various

87 0 March 23rd, 1965 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'

d) markets in our province day after day after day. If the pro- ducers of these inferior animals could just be impressed with the amount of money that they are losing, surely the situation would change more rapidly. We realize that there has been a definite improvement in the percentage of reds and blues, but this is due chiefly to the increased feeding in our province rather than the improvement in our breeding herds. " Now this isn't very much of a testimonial for the quality of cattle that we have, Madam Speaker. In the eyes of the Manitoba stock growers, they are concerned.

I know that our hon­ ourable friends opposite are forever suggesting that a market is far more important than price. My honourable friend, one of the few farmers we have in the House, the Honourable the Mem­ ber for Souris-Lansdowne, said two or three days ago when speaking on this wheat resolution that markets were more important than price , and I know that there would be some· who would agree with him.

As a matter of fact, I had thought that here was a Conservative turned Liberal, that he was certainly giving a wonderful testimonial for our friend the Honourable Mitchell Sharp. and I expect that come the next federal election that he will likely be voting with us be­ cause it is quite common for you to vote one way federally and another way provincially. other­ wise a lot of us characters wouldn't be in the House. But there are those who would disagree with him, with my honourable friend, and say that price -- what is the use of being in business if you don't get a price for what you produce?

And I think there 's a good point there. My honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture who is absent today, and I guess he will be happy that he is absent because I want to have some complimentary things to say about him in this regard. He is the fellow who ,:mblishes the green propaganda sheets, and quite frequently you will see one headed. "The farm production is up and the income is down, " as if that was something to be achieved.

To me this is a disturbing kind of a statement to make, or a disturb­ ing kind of a statement for my honourable friend to admit, my honourable friend who talks about markets being more important than price. And I want to refer you, Madam Speaker, to another wonderful source of information called "The Yearbook of Manitoba Agriculture, 1963 " emanating from the Department of Agri­ culture. On page 35 under income -- sub heading, "Farm net income -- this is production value minus cost. " That's what they define as the farm net income.

"The farm net income in 1963 dropped 31 percent due to lower production and higher costs than in 1962. Higher costs resulted from greater quantities of resources used and a small rise in their prices. These comprise home-grown resources as well as cash and overhead expenses. Home-g rown re­ sources in this case refer to resources grown on the farm where used as well as brought from other farms without going through commercial channels. " Now that's a disturbing kind of statement, that farm income, despite the fact that pro­ duction was away up, the net farm income dropped 31 percent.

So I think, Madam Speaker, be­ fore we start doing a lot of worrying about a lot of these matters, that something has to be done not only to improve the quality of our product but improve the price of it, and I know that my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, is often at times a little concerned about what the outlook should be. I heard my honourable friend make this statement and it is headed, "Social and Economic Adjustments Required in Agriculture.

An address made by the Honourable George Hutton the Minister of Agriculture, Province of Manitoba, to the Third National Farm and Business Forum on Friday , March 30, 1962. " I'm quoting here and he says, "I sometimes am asked what philo­ sophy the Department of Agriculture has in developing agricultural programs." Well he was asked back in 1962 what his philosophy was. He admits that he is sometimes asked that.

There has been a lot of people ask him in recent years, more recent years what his philosophy is in light of certain developments that have taken place, because he is the man that is forever talking about preserving the f;unily farm, and in this

article that I have before me, he is explaining his philosophy. "The main idea to me is the development of programs which provide social and economic good to the farm family within the harsh realities of a mar­ ket-ori ented agricultural production. The main objective is to carry forward programs which allow the farmer the opportunity to make an income comparable to that received in secondary and service industries. All this must be done within the concept of the family farm as the basic unit in agriculture.

I am sure that the family farm will persist as a permanent institution due to the important place of the family farm in Canadian life and to the fact that the family oper­ ated farm has many inherent strengths over the field and factory concept of farming." Now nooody could hardly disagree ·with that statement, Madam Sp,'!aker, but when my honourable friends opposite design legislation' to put the family farm out of business , then it [ I I i I • i

M3. rc h 23rd, 1965 87 1 (MR . SHOEMAKER cont'd) ... .. does make a fellow wonder what the philosophy is. Some­ one suggested in the House here the other day, and I don't think it was denied. that the De­ partment of Industry and Commerce had loaned three-quarters of a mi llion dollars to the family -- what is it -- The Friendly Family Farms at Steinbach, and I b-= lieve that the Order for a Heturn that was on the Order Paper today asked this very vital question: Was it a fact that they loaned three quarters of a million dollars ?

Now if it is a fact, and we will sooner or later get to know whether it was I guess, then it seems to me that here is legislation that is deliberately designed to ;mt the family farm out of existence. So what in the world, Madam Speaker, is the point of my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Industry and Commerce talking about preserving the family farm on the one hand and then deliberatel y designing legislation to put them out of business on the other hand.

I must say that my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce and I had a most enjoyable -- Madam Speaker, I have a note here from someone and it isn't signed, so I must return it for a signature. Now, Madam Speaker, I started off to say that my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce and myself had the pleasure one day last September 11th of attending a ceremony at Gladstone to mark the first anniversary of the Gladstone Auction Mart. MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to remind the honourable member that he has four minutes left. MR. SHOEMA KER : Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I guess perhaps, Madam Speaker, that I should inform you that it is my intention when I get through to move a motion of regret, and I think that this probably will allow me to speak beyond my -- want of confidence -- I suppose my honourable friends will consider it to be a want of confidence because the word regret is in there. Well, I'm getting advice, Madam Speaker, from the honourable member the Leader of the NDP Party and he is ruling on the matter that's before the House. But, Madam Speaker, I was about to report to you about a happy incident that took place at Gladstone.

I'm getting plenty of interruptions here -- marking the first anniversary of the Gladstone Auction Mart, and on that occasion they had sold $1 million worth of livestock.

That marked the day and they had quite a celebration there and my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Com­ merce was there as well myself, and my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Com­ merce , to point up how little that he knew about agriculture generally, told a little story at the noon luncheon that I'm not permitted to tell here in the House because it might be con­ sidered unparliamentary, but what he was doing was pointing up how little he knew about agri­ culture and told a story about a certain steer to point this up.

But while he admitted on the one hand that he didn't know anything at all about livestock, I noticed that about three days after that -- that was September 11th we were at Gladstone -­ and on September 15th, four days later, there was a heading in the Free Press headed, "Live­ stock -- Bright Future. " And who do you think made that statement ?

My honourable friend, an expert and an authority on agriculture, the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and he says that he predicts -- "A bright future for Manitoba livestock producers was forecast by the Honourable Gurney Evans, Provincial Minister of Industry and Commerce , the guest speaker of the 1964 Convention of Canadian Hatchery Federation on Tuesday. 'But, ' he said. 'the trend towards farm mechani zation and its resulting increase in the size of Manitoba farms would displace about 19,0 00 farm workers by 1975 .' This was the estimate of the Com­ mittee on Manitoba's Economic Future that industrial production must be ex panded to absorb these workers.

" Well that's a pretty bright future for us farmers, Madam Speaker. There's going to be 19, 000 less of us by 1975, but that's what he calls a bright future for Manitoba. Now on the 16th of October -- 16th of September, the next day -- the next day after my honourable friend spoke to the turkey growers there was an

article in the Tribune headed, "Smalll Family Farm is Fast Vanishing. Small family farms across Canada are facing extinc­ tion unless steps are taken to make them more efficient', four Manitoba agricultural experts agreed on Thursday night." -- (Interje ction) -- Madam Speaker, my honourable friend the member for Brokenhead wants to know who the four experts were . :YIADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member is exceeding his time. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, Madam Speaker.

I will then move, in the light of the content of the resolution and the fact that we concur in it, I will move an amendment, seconded by my honoun.bl e friend the Member for Lakeside, that the motion be amended by adding at the end thereof the following: "But this House regrets that it has been found necessary to propose this

87 2 March 23rd, 1965 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'

d) resolution constituti'ng as it does want of confidence in the government and especially in the Departments of Industry and Commerce and Agriculture and Conservation. " MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MADAM SPEAK ER : I think that I would like some time to give some study to this reso­ lution and I will take it under advisemen':. MR. SHOE:!.VIAKEB : Madam Speaker, that is quite all right with m8 but I would just ask you the question now, will I be allowed to continue -- if you rule favourable on the amendment, will I be able to continue my speech? . . . . . . . continued on next page I I •

March 23rd, 1965 873 MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed reso lution of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. The Honourable the Member for Wellington. MR. RIC HARD SEABO RN (Wellin gton): Madam Speaker, first of all I would like to thank you and the members of the House for the courtesy and unde rstanding to allow this matter to stand until this time, and as I rise to take

part in this debate, no one knows better than I do the ma gnitude of the task that is before me. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, with his customary thorough: aess, has endeav­ oured to pres ent some facts to support his c9ntention that we should have a eomprehensive me dical insurance plan in this province, if not across the whole of Ca nada, :md he has left me in the rather uncomf ortable position of having to cover such a wide area, but I know that he will forgive me if I am unable to deal with all aspects of his proposal .

I believe it was Friedrich Hegel who wrote that peoples and governments never have le arned anything from history or acted on principles derived from it, and indeed the exceptions are very few. But the force of He gel 's ass ertion, the force of his observation lies in the nat ure of the error itself; for, ordinarily, rational activity is self-co rrect ing to a very high degree in the field of science; in me dicine, for exam ple ; even in busine ss and many other activities . Men progress by virtue of rationality .

Their mistakes are reco gnized and they 're analyzed and me n try to avoid making the se mi stakes in the future. However, it seem s in the wide realm of politics that me n are inclined to adopt a policy of what I would call almost anti-knowledge, and bui.ld an elaborate body of false knowledge instead. Anti-knowledge by definition rules out any self-correc tion and it is ultimately fatal for any civilization that indul ges too much in it.

Our country -- indeed I believe the wole world, civilization -- stands at the brink of fulfilme nt of Hegel 's observation, and the conditions for our survival as a free civilized people involves knowledge of our history and a willingness to take intelligent action based upon the best and mo st accurate knowledge we can obtain. Now, the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks gave us an ext remely long list of countries who, acc ording to his pre sentation, had government-sponsored health programs.

Now he did not elaborate on these plans but he felt, because they were in existence elsewhere, that the re ­ comm endations of the Hall Co mmiss ion were legitimate and practicable. I believe that the Socialists claim that there are some 59 coun tries that provide state medical care, but I think it is excee dingly important to point out and stre ss that very few of the se countries actually make medical care available to the entire population. In most count ries medical care is only available to certain parts of the population.

However, we are told that compulsory health in­ suranc•3 is part of the march of history, that before too long we too will have a similar pattern of governm ent-sponsored, obligatory he alth insurance, and even if this were true and it could be dem onstrated by some yardstick that socialized me dicine is a strong histo rical trend, it still would not prove its me rits or its superior performa nce in my opinion. So I think that we may profit by taking a look at some of the countr ies our honourable friend me ntioned, and try to find out what is actually taking place.

I believe that one of the first count ries that he referred to was Australiia. Well, I went down the alphabe tical list, but Australia was referred to -- and I' m sure that my frien d was not rea lly serious when he included Australia in the list because -- (Int erjec tion) -- it is in the list -- it is a voluntary he alth insurance plan. Sir Earl Page, who is the previous Minister of He alth in that country, states "that Australia has been very fortunate inde ed.

During the war years and imm ediately afterwards we narro wly esca ped the trap of socialization set to enmesh me dicine and other aspects of daily life, and having esca ped from the trap Australians have not been faced with the problem of working their way out of it. In Australia we have made up our minds in favor of a contributory hea lth benefit sch eme on a voluntary basis which is working sm oothly and efficiently. There have been some changes made in the light of new ex­ perience but both in principle and practice the plan is well es tablished and widely approved by the Australian people.

" Apparently, why the Australians do not favor a co mpulsory health insurance plan is pro­ bably beca use they are so close to New Zea land, and I know that my friends opposite will be very glad that I• m approach ing New Zea land, for this is one country in which so cialism was ferventlly embraced, but I think it is very in tere sting to note, Madam Speaker, that this country was very much in the news in 1961 because it ele cted a Conse rvative government which com ­ mitted Itself to retrench some of the welfare statism in that country that has develop ed under previous Labour governm en ts, and one of the mea sures promised was the rest oration of some charg e�; for medica l care .

Health benefits in New Zealand are a part of a very comprehensive

874 11arch 23rd, 1965 (11R. SEABO RN cont 'd) . . ..... social se curity progra m . Although it is admittedly very difficult to disentangle the medical situation from the othe r areas of welfare benefits as far as costs and ...... effects are concerned in that country, the health program is considered to be quite crippling financia lly. I think it is interesting, too, to note that New Zeal and leads the world in taxation by any standard of comparison.

In any income bracket from $4, 000 to $28, 000 New Zealand 's income in social se curity taxes far exceeds those in Great Britain; Australia, the United States and Canada. The political analysts have stated that the welfare principle in New Ze aland can go no­ where excep t to gradually dism antle itself to a reaso nable level. They have also noted that New Zeala nd is the one democra cy where promised cash benefits will no longer win election, and I believe the word for the situation in this country, I believe the word that should be used is "disench antm ent, 11 but apparently we will not heed the warning.

Now let 's take a look at Austria -- I believe that this is one country that my honourable friend mentioned -- and Austria is interesting for more ways than one . With an academic and a sci entific tradition very similar to their Germa n cousins, Austria has contributed gre atly to the achievem ents of modern medicine, but as in Germ any it has carried into the seco nd half of our cen tury a tradition and system of compulsory sickne ss insurance introduced by those bene volent but authoritarian monarchies of the 19th century.

Eighty years ago the emperors were advised that the only way to keep the followers of Karl 11arx un der control in parliam ent would be to re scue the proletariat through an impose d system of government health care, and today Austria has a chronically troubled compuls ory scheme which is trying to blanket in the rem aining free population, and is almost entirely the political prope rty of the Socia list Party in that country.

Seventy years of compuls ory he alth insurance in Austria sh ould dispel the notion that, given enough time, governm ent health plans will solve their inher ent problems, and I think it is of particular int erest, too, that in 1958 a newspaper in Vienna ran a series of articles under the title "The 11alingerers Among Us " and the reporter examined in full detail the various techniques of getting ill for the specific purpose of acquiring socia l sec urity benefits, and in 1959 the Director of the Control Board for the Austrian Health Plan concluded his report by saying, ''lt is vain for the Health Plan to appeal to the Federal Government.

Even if their de­ ficits were continually covered by general reven ues, the root of the evil would rema in, the thoughtl ess irrespo nsible claims for benefits , " and he goes on to say, 11We suffer from a vicious circle . The compulsory health plan, as everyone knows , makes only half-hearted efforts to plug the ho les through which their resources vanish. As a conseq uen ce, the othe r participants in the health scheme show little inclination to help reach fisca l stability.

The doctors rec eive so little for each registered pati ent per quarter that they have to carry a patient at least three if not all four quarters of the year. Indeed, it might be eco nom ic sui­ cide for a doctor to disco urage the hypochondr iacs. The benef iciaries, of course, seeing ever larger amounts of their pay cheques deducted for soc ial se curity, are literally trained to maxi­ miz e their claims.

" Now 11adam Speaker, I think it is very important that we include Sweden in our investi­ gation , for acc ording to our friends across the way this is the land of our drea ms, the great Utopia of welfare statism that they envis age for our great country, the great example of Socialism at work, and it is well that we consider what is taking place in that Sc andinavian democracy. 11R. PAULLEY: You admit it's democracy. 11R. SE ABORN: Yes, in that definition of the word. 11R. PAULLEY: Thank you. 11R. SEABORN: I said, with the definitio n of that word.

Prior to the Socialist govern­ ment bringing in its compuls ory health insurance scheme in 1955, the proverbial health of the Swedish people was desc ribed in a New York Times Editorial as follows : "If a high expectancy of life at birth and the lowest infant mo rtality rates in the world mea n anythi ng, the Swedes are an exceedi ngly healthy people. 11 So if there was one place on this earth it should have been possible in Sweden for compuls ory health insurance to avoid the costly develop­ me nts experienced in other count ries, for Sweden has a sma ll homogeneous population, con­ sc ientious citizens, and a very high level of health to begin with.

There was rea lly no logical or comp elling reason for the compuls ory health insurance scheme in Sweden, but it seem s, to top off a welfare state, it takes in the eyes of some, a comprehensive and comp ulsory health plan for all people ; and it's very easy to be swayed by the current argumen t that a modern • I I •

March 23rd, 1965 87 5 (MR. S.EABORN cont'd) ....... prosperous and progres sive nation needs some sort of compul- sory medical care. Without it, some people seem to feel that the claim to leadership and social progress is not quite complete, and to me this assum ption is highly questiona ble . There are othe r countries that have gone a rem arkably long way without compulsory health insuranc e, Madam Spe aker, and in Sweden, a compa rative newcomer to state medicine, few can see what compulsory insurance has con tributed that could not have been done under the previous volun­ tary arrangement.

As I me ntioned before, it should have been compa ratively easy to ina ugurate a health scheme in Sweden . There were no great gaps in health to be remedied under the new system . The statistics before and after the introduction of the compulsory plan should not have been too different. However, as we sh all see, the cost of health insurance and the overall expendit ure for the health service since the introduction of the compulsory system, have increased. far beyond anything its proponents anti cipated.

Sweden is a country of 16 million people and 70% of the Swedish population carried volun­ tary health insurance prior to the introduction of the compuls ory scheme in .l955. The total expenditures of these voluntary plans rose between 1946 and 1950 from $25. G million to $3 8. 8 million, and by 1954 the expenditures were $55.4 million. In 1955, however, during the first year of the co mpulsory service, the expenditures jumped to $13 6 million. Within five years the expendit ures had grown to $200 million, and in 1961 exceeded $240 million under the compuls ory health sc hem e.

In 1961, Madam Speaker, a ma rried couple in Sweden with an annual income of $3 , 000 -- which is a modest standard of living even in that country -- had to pay 27 perce nt in taxes on every dollar of additional incom e, and a couple earning $5, 000 had to surrender 42 percent of all additional income to the tax collector .

Even the Social Dem ocratic Party in Sweden admitted that the direct tax on income had moved beyond the critical point, and the public in our provinc e, which has so far avoided the pitfalls of compul­ sory health insurance, would be well advised to take a real hard look at the daims that state me dicine will cost only pennies a day.

It is reliably reported, Madam Speaker, that the people in Sweden are beginning to ask whether the welfare state is not merely a nonsensical mer ry-go-ro und of ineome distribution, a eomplicated and costly bureaucracy busy taking money from the very people who receive it back in all kinds of state subsidies. What was the word we used for New Zealand? Ah, yes -- "disen chanted " -- and in Sweden we have this disench antm ent with the princ iple of soeialism that has ensl aved them under burdensome taxation-- (Interjeetion) --You can ma ke your eontri­ bution after, my friend.

Two years ago I read from the Hans ard of November 25, 1961, covering the debate in the British Houses of Parliament. Lord Taylor, the great exponent of compulsory medica l insurance in England, and well-known in this country as the me diator brought in by the Saskatchewan Government in the now historica l medica l dispute in that provi nc e, expressed great eoncern over the National He alth Services Plan in Great Britain. He opened his speech by descr ibing the situation both as a ghastly, awful picture and a despera te Bituation.

Now, I have tried to make it a point to give the actual figures involved in the various plans in effect, and in each case, Madam Speaker, you will have noticed that the actual cost was far beyond the original estimates . I must therefore state that I do not trust the figures pre sen ted to us as the cost of a compuls ory medical plan for this country. Co nj ecture and actual experience have proven to be two entirely different thin gs . We were just speaking about England, so let •s retrace the history of the compuls ory me dical care plan in that country.

The original estim ated cost was given as 70 million poun ds ; the actual. figure was 170 million poun ds, within ten years had risen to 800 million poun ds , and last year was one billion poun ds . All this for a system that has proven itself wasteful, unm anagea ble and far short of the idealistic dreams of the planne rs. If you don 't believe me, I would strongly suggest that you subscribe to the Hans ards from England . It is being found that there is a new type of patient em erging in that country , similar to those found in Austria and Germa ny after their 70 years of experience with state medicine.

This is no longer a group with imaginary illn ess, .but these now are people who are trained in illn ess, referred to by the reporter in the Vienna Express newspaper s. These people str ongly resist any requirement to pay fo:r their medical health other t)lan a flat increase in their contributory eontribu tions. -- (Inter je ction) -- You also will have your opportunity to make your contribu tion. Now, if we had the opportunity to examine all of the facts of the countr ies given to us as partic:lpating in the compuls ory health insurance plan, I think we would find that similar diffi-

87 6 March 23r d, 1965 (MR. SEABORN cont'd) ....... culties exist in each one of them . I would like to point out, and I feel that this is very important for us to consider, that ill-advised healt h laws, once enacted, are the most difficult to repeal, and also are very difficult to amend -- far more difficult than any other legislation. And the first line of defence therefore is here more important than any subsequent one . This was not understood in Europe; it was not understood in Saskatchewan; but surely it is poss ible for us to learn from their exper ien ce s.

Health insurance legislation, perhaps more than any other law, soon acquires an immunity from any thought of repea l . It is extremely doubtful whether freedom for either doctors or patients can be reg ained even though a state system has proven itself harmf ul and wasteful. Indeed, it is unlikely that even a national health scheme once es tablish ed with an arm of the governm ent can win independence from the political institution and be br ought back under professio nal public administra tion as was attempted in both France and Grea t Britain .

I would submit, Madam Speaker, that a compuls ory health insurance plan is not a part of history, that there are coun tries which have gone rem arkably far without it, as I said before. The Federal Government of Switzerl and, for example, introduced and passed a law in 1911 which made subsidies available to the various cantons if they would introduce a corn - I pulsory health sch em e. A sm all number of them brought in a partial scheme to cover a sm all part of the ir population, but not one canton has introduced a compulso ry health scheme to cover its entire population.

In fact, most of the cantons rejec ted compulsory health insur- ance in favour of the voluntary insurance that is now in effect in that country. And perhaps if we too lived closer to other countries where compulsory health schemes were in effect, we would do likewise. But before I leave this subject , Madam Speaker, th er e's another important factor that takes place when the state substitutes its power for what I will call social power. When Winnipeg was hit with the disastrous flood of 1950, so cial power was imm ediately mobilized and applied with the greatest intelligence and vigour.

Its abundance in money alone was so great that when ever ything was finally put in order several millions of dollars rem ained , But if such a catastrophe happened now, not only does our social power, perhaps, too, depleted for a similar experience, but I believe that the general instinct would be to let the state look after it. The general attitude, I would expect, would be, if the state has made such matters its business and it's confi sc ated the social power to deal with them , why then, let it deal with them . MR. PAULLEY: •...... my honourable friend would permi t a question on that point? MR.

SEABORN: Afterwards , if you don 't mind, I think we can gain some rough me asure of this general attitude by our own dispos ition when approached by a beggar . A few years ago we would have probably mov.ed to give him som ething. Today we are mo re likely to refer him to the nearest state relief agency. The state has in effect said to so ciety, "You •re either not exercising enough power to me et the emerg ency or you're exercising it in what I cons ider an incom petent way.

So I will conf iscate your power and exer cise it to suit myself, " Therefore when a beggar now asks us for a quarter, we instinctively tell him that the state has already conf iscated our quarter for his benefit so he should go and see the state about it. I think we will all appre ciate the danger that faces us if we continue to go in this dire ction, and I would suggest that every positive intervention the state makes has a similar effect upon soc iety.

I am convi n ced, Madam Spe aker, that the people of Manitoba, acting on their own ini­ tiative and with their own resources, will take care of th emse lves far better than they will be taken care of by any number of politicians who endeavour to apply the theo ries of Karl Marx. If the government takes over in the manner that the hono urable member suggests, it will mea n that charity will give way to politics. Funds forcibly collected are dispensed to indivi­ duals acco rding to group, class, or occupational category. This has no semb lance of charit y as we know it. It is the robbery of Peter to pay Paul.

And further, when the governmen t constructs a feeding trough and fills it with fruits extorted from the people, it crea tes new claim ants and aggravates the problem s it was supposed to solve , as I have endeavo ured to show you. How much better it would be, Madam Speaker, if we approached this whole question of health in a climate of freedom rather than compulsion. I believe the whole approach can and sh ould be done on a voluntary basis . In Australia, in fact in our own country, in the Province of Alberta, they seem to find this system working quite efficiently and quite effectively.

The Province of Manitoba so me time ago made a presen tation to the Royal Commissio n on Health •

March :Z3rd, 1965 87 7 (MR. SEABORN cont'd) ....... Services which, while suggesting that such a plan should be not only comprehens ive and univers ally available, also in my opinion contained that very ess ential ingredient that is dear to the hearts of free men, namely, the right of free choi ce . To me, the greatest se curity a person can have comes from within himse lf, not from the outside, and nothing that anyone can do for you can begin to match what you can actually do for yourself.

However, I do reco gni ze that there may be those in our society who need our as sistance and, because I am persua ded that such help can be given without the repulsive elem ent of force, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that the reso lution be amended by deleting all the words after "Wher eas " in the first line of the res olution, and sub­ stitute the following: "the Government of Manitoba appeared before the Royal Commissio n on Health Services in Ja nuary 1962 and pre sented concrete recomm endations respe cting national health problems; And

whereas the se reco mmendations included a plan of health insurance covera ge ; Therefore be it reso lved that this House urges the Governm ent of Ca nada to call a Dominion- Provincial Co nference with a view to es tablishing a Federal- Provincia l plan of health insurance that would be comprehensive, univers ally available, and cons istent with the princ iplle of need. " MADAM SPEAKER commenced to present the motion -- MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if, Madam Speaker, before the motion is formally put to the House, I might ask my honourabl e friend a couple of questions ? MR. SEABORN: I' d be glad to. MR.

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, during his discussio n a mome nt ago he made refer­ ence to the 1950 flood and the voluntary contributions from outside and within the province. I would like to ask my honourable friend if the state did not come to the aid o:f those affected by the flood in the year 1950 by making provisions for rehabilitation of their ho mes, etc. to consi derable degree. MR. SEAB ORN: This is probably quite true but I think that a lot of people got mo re satisfaction being able to do it out of the ir own hearts volun tarily. MR.

PAULLEY: ....... the same matter, Madam Speaker, is the state not now making :ID expenditure in the nei ghborhood of $63 millions by the building of a floodway in order to prevent a re currenc e? Did you not hear me? MR. SE ABORN: I heard you. MR. PAULLEY: What is your ans wer ? MR. SEABORN: I think the answer is obvio us. MR. PAULLEY: Cer tainly it •s an answer. It's the state coming to the aid of individuals . MADAM SP EAKER: Order please. MR. SEABORN: Madam Spe aker, the answer to that question is obvious . MADAM SPEAKER pre sen ted the motion. lVIR. CHER NIACK: Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Member for St. Joh n's . MR. CHER NIACK: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. I assure you, Madam Spea ker, I will not be rea ding this speech because I didn •t think that I would be making one at this time, and I didn •t have an occa sion to prepare anything in line with what I want to say. Mainly it is because I feel provoked by what has been said by the Honourable Member from Wellington, and I don •t want the opportunity to go by without dealing with some of the things which the honourable me mber referred to.

I might say to begin with that, having heard the amendment, I am under the impression that thi s was prepared by a more rational approach to the problem than is evidenced by the words spoken by the person who moved the amendment. This amendment, as I listened to it, spoke of a commiss ion or a commi ttee or a study to be made which is reas onab le .

We have had studies made which I think could have been dealt with by the honourable member, but another study is always worth while especia lly to prolong a problem which has to be dealt with, so this is both rational and consi stent with this governm ent 's program of legislation, and the purpose for the study is to rev:lew what can be done to set up a governmen t scheme -- and I wonder why a government scheme in the light of what the honourable member said pre ceding his moving of the amendment -- which will pro­ vide for comprehensive care -- I think he used the word comprehensive, but care, in any event -- based on need and if it •s a governmen t scheme there must be an elem ent of compul­ sion; there-must be an elem ent of the use of tax money based on need.

And this is completely inconsist ent, Madam Speaker, with what was sa id by the honourable member, before he actually gave us the words of his amendment. And I would think that if we were given a free

87 8 Mar :::h 23rd, 1965 (MR. CHERNIACK cont 'd) ....... vote on the amen dment -- and I must say, Madam Spe aker, t I intend to be very car eful to speak on the amendment only, because I want the opportunity to spea k on the main mo tion later -- that if there were a free vote on this amendment I would think that the hon ourable member would vote against the amen dment in the light of what he said and what he appears to believe . And I sometimes wonder, Madam Speaker, what goes on in the minds of those people who decide who shall speak on what issues on the other side of the House.

How they could com e to pick on the person who has the contrary point of view, or at le ast expresses the contrary point of view, to mo ve an amendment which appears to be government policy. The government member in his amendment, as I say, indica ted that he wants government interf erence in the question of the provision of health serv ices .

He wants, I am sure by reading the amendment, that the governm ent shall provide tax monies for the benef it of so me people involved in rec eiving health services, and he spea ks of need which is the term of "needs test, " I suppos e, as compared to the philosophic difference from "m eans test " but it does mea n contributing to people and to their need, and this is completely contrary to what this honourable member wishes, because what he wants -- and this is really what prompted me to speak at this occa sion without prepara tion other than listening to what he had to say -- was satisfaction, Madam Spea ker.

He wanted the satisfaction of being the giver, and I hope he never, never is in the position of having to be the recei ver because I think this would be a traumatic experience for him from which he could not reco ver . He spoke, Madam Speaker, in answer to the question of my Leader, about the flood, and about the portion contributed in tax dollars to the sufferers from the flood, and I wrote down what he said, that what the people gave through taxation could not compare -- this isn •t word for word -- well, word for word what he said was : "The people got more satisfaction out of giving volun tarily.

" Madam Speaker, what people was he spea king of? The people who suffered? The people who needed he lp? The people who had to be rehabilitated? No, Madam Speaker. He spoke about the people who gave . Th ese are the people that I think concerned the honourable me mber. The people who got satisfaction. The satisfaction one needs when one is hungry ? The satisfaction that one needs when one needs a roof over one 's he ad? Or the satisfaction that one needs, in his term s, of giving?

I am not one to quote the Bible, Madam Spe aker, espec ially to the honourable member, but I have read som ewhere that the best way to give, the mo st satisfying way to give, Madam Speaker, is to give not only anon ymously so that no one knows that you gave , but to give in such a way that you don •t know who receives, so that you don •t get that feeling of satisfaction which I think is said is pretty good, but not as good as knowing that you have made a contri ­ bution.

And that is quite different, Madam Speaker, a contribution to so ciety, a contribution to a class, is something which makes you feel that you participate in the lives of people, but a contribution to a direct rec ipient, knowing the rec ipient, knowing that he is in need and knowing that you •ve given, is a pretty selfish form of contribution, Madam Speaker, and I use those words advisedly.

Charity, Madam Speaker, is a term which I must equate at times, at times, and I don 't want to generalize too broadly, but there are times, Madam Speaker, when to give char ity is a very se lfish thing be cause you can give in different ways and be much mo re a part of your comm unity. And when the honourable member used the compariso n of the days -- he didn 't say the good old days, but it seems to me he thought of it, good old days -- when one would give a quarter to a beggar and now one is more inclined to say to the beggar, •• Go to a state relief agency. '' And I think he deplored that, Madam Speaker .

I rea lly think he felt that those days are good old days, that one could give a hand-out to a beggar, give him a quarte r. And think of the immense feeling of warmth within oneself. One can go home and say, "I have done well for my fellow ma n.

" I don •t think I• m exaggerating, Madam Spe aker , the attitude which I read into what the honourable member said, because he used that comparison: "in the days when one could give a quarter to a beggar, now one is inclined to say, 1Go to the state relief agency •." If ever there was an occasio n even for the need expr esse d in the amendment, then this is the occa sion to say that only through an agency which kno ws, which judges, which assesses the need, do you then give in a way which is helpful, which is a contribution to the society of which one forms part.

So if the honourable member may think back with nost algia to the days when he was inclined to give the quarter to the beggar, I say thank God for the fact that all governm ents nowadays have said, "Le t's forget about this hand-out to the beggar; let's think in the terms of the governmen t acting on behalf of the people as a proper agency to help those I I •

lViar:oh 23rd, 196 5 879 (MR. CHERNIACK cont 'd) ....... who are in need,"a nd in this sense I accept his word "ne ed ". The hono urable me mber spoke in terms of the fact that legislation of this kind -- and he was speaking of legislation of the type that is proposed in the ma in reso lution -- is legislation that cannot be withdrawn. Obviously the amendment to the re solution which he has brought before us doesn't put us in any dan ger, Madam Speaker . We haven't done a thing. If we pass that amendment there 's nothing we can withdraw because the re 's nothing we have accomplished.

There's no step taken which one then has to worry about, beca use the appointment of a commission which the hon ourable memb er wants done is no irretrievable step either forward or backward. But I wonder why it would be difficult to withdraw legislation such as the honourable member did no t want to have brought in. Is it beca use the people warit it'( Is it beca use the people feel it is necessary? Is it beca use people feel that the provision of health services to all of the people is important for all members of the group? If that is the reason, then surely that is the type of legislation that is needed.

I need only reca ll to me mbers of this House that the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs -- maybe sometimes he has fears too -- but the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs gave me the impression two days ago, Madam Speaker, that the reason for this upheaval that we had last August was it, where there was a redistribution of the sources of income of certain of the tax revenues o:f this province, were based -- and I think he gave me the idea -- they were based not so much because this government felt that there wa s an un:fair load, an unfair burden placed on a certain class of taxpayers, but rather because this governm ent felt that the people thought there was an unfair burden placed on a certain group of people, of taxpayers in this provin ce.

And beca use -- HON. ROBERT G. SMELLIE, Q. C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle -Russell) : Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I did on that occa sion say that I believed that real prope rty taxes were too high and that it was time that steps should be taken to alleviate the burden on the real prope rty taxpayer. MR. CHERN IACK: I think that •s correct, Madam Speaker, because I read Hansard and I think that 's what he said at the end of all the questions which he answered, and I think he redeemed himself at the time.

But I was careful, Madam Speaker, when I said -- I was care­ ful not to quote him, and I was car eful to say that that is the impress ion whic:h I recei ved from what he said, and I must say, Madam Spe aker, that the last se ntence that he sa id and which he has just repeated, was stated but it did not change my impress ion as to what I think he set out as being the government's attitude .

Now I don't think there 's any quarrel about the words that were said and I don 1t see any value in going back to read Hansard at lenglth, but I think if one reads about half a page of Hansard one might reach the conclusion which I reach ed as to an impress ion, and I was car eful to say it was an impression.

Now, if it is a fact that govern­ ments are mo tivated by what they think the people want, and I think that's a pretty accurate statemen t, then it appears that governments that bring in res olutions such as my Honourable Friend :from Wellington deplores, bring them in because they feel that they are doing what the people expect them to do, what the people elect them to do, and having done that they find it mo st difficult to change their minds and back down ; and tha t's natural because if the people later wanted the m to back down and to change, then there would be no problem because they would be doing again what they think the people want them to do and what they understand is the purpose for which they were elected.

If they find it is difficult, as men tioned by the Honourable Member for Wellington, then obviously it's difficult because the people don't want them to change the legislation. That 's so obvious I don 't think I need dwell on it. My honourable friend went on to speak -- and again I think he deplored the fact when he sa id that chari ty will give way to politics. Madam Speaker, we all of us here are politicians . We may call ourselves statemen, but in effect there 's nothing bad about the term politician. I don •t rejec t it and I don •t know how many Members of this House re.iect it.

I think, I don •t know the correct dictionary definition of politician, nor the parliam entary definition of politician, but to me the politician is a perso n who attempts to unde rstand what it is that the ele ctorate wan ts, and to carry it out in that type of legislation which he thinks will be advant ageous for the people who elect him and othe r me mbers of the House. Now that 's an off-hand snap definition.

I don •t know if it will stand up to sea rching enquiry but I think it's good enough for the purposes, and I think in this case if the politician decides that what he wants to do is to carry out the wishes of the people and to raise taxes and to obtain funds from tax revenues in order to provide ce rtain health mea sures to the people of the province, that he is doing some thing in a political way. He is carrying out the instructions , what he un der­ stands are the instructions of his elector ate and if that is deplorable and if ch arity is better,

880 March 23rd, 1965 I (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) , ...... then let my Honourable Friend from Wellington find out whether that is the attitude of the members of his caucus, because I think that the people of I this province would be entitled to know that.

I think that in bringing this amendment before us he is spea king on behalf of the caucus and I am mo st anxious to know whether the caucus en- dorses a statement such as that it is deplorable and th ese are my words -- I don't remember his exact words, but the fact that he appears to regret that and these are his words, "ch arity will give way to politics. 1 1 Need I rem ind Members of this House what the Honourable Member from Wellington, near the conclusion of what he sa id, spoke of providing a feeding trough of fruits extorted from the people.

Madam Speaker, is that the policy of this governmen t as is envisaged in the amendment before it? Because again I say the amendment is som ething that as .one reads it, is reaso nable , is slow, is hesi tant, but is at least a reas onable approach to an attitude. It is one with which in itself we canno t quarrel, but let us reca ll, Madam Speaker, the paragraph prece ding what was said -- to provide a feeding trough of fruits extorted from the people. I don't know, Madam Speaker, what we do with the monies we collect. Are they extortion? Are the revenues of this province extortion from the people?

Is that the attitude that we have to consider in this Ho use, Madam Speaker ? Is it that when we provide some sort of service, and it may not be too long and may well be within the lifetime of the Honourable Member from Wellington, that a Conser vative government will bring in more and more mea sures of aid to the health serv ices, on a universal basis in this provin ce . It may well be, Madam Speaker. Will that be a feeding trough of fruits extorted from the people? Are the present services provided by this government provided through a feeding trough of fruits extorted from the people ?

Madam Speaker, I reco gnize that the Honourable Member for Wellington has a right to his opinio n and to his nostalgia for the good old days , but Madam Speaker, in providing for us an amendment which I believe, from the way it was drawn, is done on behalf of the caucus of which he is a member, that unl ess this caucus provides us with other thoughts and other philosophies, that other attitudes to support the amendment which we have before us, that the caucus as a group must accept the words and the sentiments and the attitudes of the honourable speaker.

I want to say, Madam Speaker , in all sinceri ty I do not believe that thi s caucus -- I mea n the caucus of the ma jority party -- shares thos e se ntiments but I think that this caucus is tarnished by the brush of the words that were used in depicting or in picturing for us, the whole attitude to this problem and I am looking forward that my faith in the ma jority members of the caucus will be justified in suggesting that they will not accept the attitude expr essed by the honourable member, but if they do, that, Madam Speaker, is their problem . I' m happy that I don •t share the problem with th em .

MADAM SPEAKER: Are you re ady for the question? MR. PAULLEY: I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Inkster, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed reso lution of the Honourable the Member for Br andon . The Honourable the Member for Pembina. MRS.

CAROLYNE MORRISON (Pembina) : It gives me a great deal of pleasure, Madam Spea ker, to support this res olution because of the high regard I have for the fine folk who have come from far away lands to ma ke their homes among us. In my own commu nity, and I feel this spea ks for every com munity throughout the len gth and bre adth of our province, we have new citizens making a tremen dous contribution to our way of life, both eco nomica lly and socially.

Not only have these newco m ers proven th em selves to be excellen t hom ema kers, but from many lands they have brought with them talents and skills that have greatly enriched this Ca nada of ours.

It would be impossi ble, Madam Speaker, to descr ibe their many accomplish­ me nts, their many areas of lear ning, but certainly they have made a real contribu tion in ma ny lines, in the field of me dicine, in many sciences, in music and opera, in ballet and folk danc­ ing, as painte rs and sculptors, as teachers in our sc hools and unive rsities, and in the field of radio and television they have been very active , and most as suredly many of the han dicrafts which flo urish in Canada today were brought to us by expert craftsmen from other lan ds .

I am sure, Madam Speaker, it is our hope that the skills these many ethnic groups have br ought with them will never be lost, that they will be passed on from genera tion to generation. What a pity it would be for instance if the music and dance of the Ukraine were to be lost to

Ma rch 23rd, 1965 881 (MRS. JVIORRISON cont'd) ....... posterity and so, Madam Speaker , I say again these new Ca na dians have made a mo st valuable contribution to the economy and artistic life of our country. Surely we owe them som ething in return . When these folk have made their decision that they desire to ma ke Ca nada their home, when they are re ady to carry out the all important step of taking out their citizenship paper s, surely they are entitled to a cerem ony that provides not only solemnity but a real sense of dignity and importance to the occasion.

I believe we have a duty to help the m fully realize that, having chosen to become Ca na dian citizens, we are privileged to accept them as members of a Great Ca nadian family. Let us give them a feeling of se curity in the knowledge that we not only need them and apprecia te th em, but also that although we are of many different back­ grounds we have now an equal respo nsi bility in building for the future welfare of our great country .

Yes, Madam Spe aker, with privileges there also come re sponsibilities and one of the greatest resp onsibilities is prom oting peace and harmo ny regardless of our many backgroun ds . I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that we do have much in commo n with our new Ca nadian citizens .

Even if we are not immigrants ourselves, have ma ny of us not listened with real interest to the am azing stories and exper iences of our parents or our grandparen ts, who journeyed from far-away places to ma ke a new life for themselves in Ca nada at a time when slowness of travel made those places much further away than they are today. The circum­ stances which prompted brave souls to leave their native lands have been very different indeed.

For some it was the spirit of adventur e, for others it has been their hope that this might be a land free from political upheaval where they could find peace and at least some mea sure of sec urity for themselve s, but mo re espec ially for their children and their chi ldren •s children. And so, Madam Speaker, I think it is most fitting that when these newcom ers are re ady to take on the responsib ility of Ca nadian citizenship, they sh ould be honoured with a cerem ony suited to the importance of the occasion.

In this way we as Ca nadians can help the new citizens realize that we consider this to be a very special occ asion, that it is an outstanding event in his or her life. By so doing we will promo te a closer bond, a deeper unde rsta nding between the Cana dian citizen by birth and the Ca na dian citizen by cho ice. I would pay tribute, Madam Spe aker, to Judge Chapman of Winnipeg; yes, to all me mbers of the j,udiciary wherever they may be who, rea lizing the significance of the occas ion, do arrange colourful and impres­ sive ceremo nies for those taking out the ir citizenship paper s.

I would pay tribute also to those patriotic organiz ations who in reco gnition of the importance of the occasio n have added distinctio n to the cerem ony. I would empha size, Madam Speaker, that we should all be proud of our status as Cana dian citizens, the status which, as the Honourable Member for Br andon rem inded us, we have only had since the pass ing of The Ca nadian Citizenship Act, January l, 1947. Jl..et us do all we can to help our new citizens be proud to say, "I am a Ca nadian. " Madam Speaker, I am pleased to seco nd this reso lution . MR. GRAY: Madam Speaker, as one . .... . . MR.

ROBL IN: ..... .. my honourable frien d •s convenience if we were to call it 5: 30 seeing it is so Close, and he can co nti