May 28, 1998 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIII No. 34

The House met at 3:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair wants to rule on a

point of order raised by the hon. Member for Waterford Valley that the hon. Minister of

Education had breached the rules of the House by imputing motives to a member presenting a

petition and a member supporting the petition on May 26.

The Chair has reviewed the minister's comments and concludes that in

the context of his remarks the minister did not impute that the member intentionally or

deliberately provided misinformation to a certain group. To say that a member has provided

information that is not accurate, or provided misinformation, is not a breach of the rules

of the House. Therefore I rule no point of order.

Statements by

Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: More good news, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday my federal counterpart, the hon. David Anderson, announced

that as part of the 1998 groundfish management plan there will be a 20,000-tonne quota for

3Ps cod this year.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: This quota, double what it was in 1997, is based on

recommendations of the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, and reflects what appears

to be a steady improvement in the status of that cod stock.

This, Mr. Speaker, is very positive news for our fishing industry,

particularly on the South Coast. Close to 1,000 core fishing enterprises are expected to

be involved in the 3Ps cod fishery. The additional quota will expand the fishing

operations for these vessels, and provide additional income for several thousand

harvesters involved. The additional 22 million pounds of cod this year will also create an

additional 9,300 person weeks of employment for 1,000 plant workers or more, creating even

more spin-off benefits to the economy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: I must emphasize, Mr. Speaker, that if this cod fishery

is to be as successful as I know it can be, quality assurance must be a priority for

everyone involved. Everyone must co-operate to ensure that we do not have a repeat of last

year's situation when practically all landings and processing occurred over a very short

time frame, It is encouraging that many harvesters have agreed to stagger their landings

this year to ensure that we have the best quality product possible.

Mr. Speaker, while we must recognize that some other groundfish stocks

are not recovering as we would like, we must also not lose sight of the fact that we have

other fisheries that are doing well and are making significant economic and employment

contributions to our economy. Last year, for the first time in four years, total landings

exceeded 200,000 metric tonnes.

Our fisheries are off to a good start again this year. The early price

settlements for crab and shrimp have allowed these fisheries to begin on a timely basis.

Right now, approximately eighty fish plants are in production around the Province. About

6,000 plant workers are working right now processing fish. Other plants and jobs will come

on stream later. Between 6,500 and 7,000 plant workers will be employed when crab

processing reaches its peak.

As I indicated to the House last week, the significant increase in the

Northern shrimp quota for the inshore sector this year will provide new employment.

Approximately 1,000 harvesters and another 1,000 plant workers will be involved in the

Northern shrimp fishery within the next few weeks. I anticipate that the inshore shrimp

fishery this year will have a landed value of $50 million and an export value of $100

million.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: Combined with the successes of these and other

fisheries such as our sealing sector, the increase in this 3Ps cod quota will further

assist in generating new wealth and help put our fishing industry on a more stable footing

for the long-term benefits of everyone involved.

Mr. Speaker, I full anticipate that the export value of our fishery

this year will surpass the 1997 value of $575 million, again demonstrating the significant

contribution that our fishery makes to our economy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for a copy of his statement prior to the opening

of the House. Once again, Mr. Speaker, we see the minister stand here today. Normally he

will stand and say that he is not responsible for federal matters, or for federal

decisions. We see him today stand and make a federal announcement. Be that as it may, Mr.

Speaker, this 3Ps -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: This was announced yesterday on the Fishermen's

Broadcast, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: This is old news, I say to the minister. It should

have been announced last week. As positive as this is, Mr. Speaker, it should have been

announced last week.

Last week we saw two fisheries close down in area 3Ps. We saw the monk

fishery close and we saw the skate fishery close because of the high by-catch of cod that

they were catching in this particular.

Mr. Speaker, the people in Newfoundland and Labrador would love to have

heard today, in this Ministerial Statement, what was going to be done differently than

what was done last year. The minister is saying that he is hoping it will be done

differently, and it is going to be done differently; but what, I ask the minister, has he

done to make sure that we do not see a repeat of what happened last year when we saw fish

in 3Ps dumped, after having a moratorium for more than five years. That is what should be

done.

The minister also talks about the shrimp fishery. It is very positive,

Mr. Speaker. It is going to create some opportunities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is going to create some opportunities in my district. I am glad to hear that, and I am

certain that the figures he put forward are very conservative figures.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: It probably will even bypass the dollar value and

the number of jobs that are going to be created. We look forward to that particular

fishery being carried out in a very positive manner.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, does

he have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I welcome, obviously, the announcement by the federal minister that

there will be an increased quota for 3Ps cod this year. It is very positive and I am sure

very uplifting to fishermen who fish in that area to know they will be able to fish for

cod.

I note that this was recommended by the Fishery Resource Conservation

Council, a council that the minister has said publicly ought to be abolished. He did not

say that today, that it should be done away with. This is an independent body, Mr.

Speaker. While we may not always agree with all of their conclusions - I don't think

everybody does - it is an independent body, and we have to pay very, very strict attention

to the issue of conservation after what has happened to our fishery, Mr. Speaker.

I am welcoming the news. I know that our fishery is going to be able to

increase on a far greater scale as time goes on if we are very careful about the resource.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday we hosted a reception to launch the Newfoundland

and Labrador Agriculture Awareness Campaign. The campaign, which is a joint venture

between the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods and the federal Department of

Agriculture and Agri-food Canada, is designed to raise the public's awareness of the

Province's diverse agriculture industry.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are generally unaware of the extent of

quality products produced locally. How many of the general public realize that

Newfoundland and Labrador products are now successfully marketed in all of Canada, with

growing interest overseas? Farmers in this Province produce all the fluid milk and eggs

that we consume. Most people would not realize that there are opportunities to not only

expand and diversify primary production, but even more so in the area of value-added food

products.

This is why this government wants to increase the awareness of the

agriculture and food industry, so that we can foster new ideas to take advantage of these

opportunities.

The Province's agriculture industry is a major contributor to our

economy. Newfoundland and Labrador has over 740 farm units and more than 100 secondary

food processors operating in all areas of the Province. The value of the agriculture

industry is undeniable and often understated. The capital value of the primary industry

alone is over $184 million. Farm produce sales reached a record high of $74 million last

year. The value of manufactured agrifoods products also continued to increase in 1997 with

values over $300 million. The agriculture industry employs approximately 5,000 people in

the Province. Most of these jobs are in rural areas of the Province.

The advertising campaign began yesterday with television and newspaper

ads and will run throughout the summer and fall months. The initial focus of the campaign

will be on highlighting the industry itself. The second stage will focus on agriculture

products and procurement.

Mr. Speaker, I encourage all members of the House and all

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to take full advantage of our home grown products and

consume them whenever they can. For the Rodriguez Winery in Markland to Andy Larner's

poultry operation, Newfoundland and Labrador's agricultural products are second to none.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for the copy of his news release prior to the

opening of the House. I say to the minister, this is one industry in this Province that

needs much more than lip-service paid to it. This is one industry, Mr. Speaker, that has

great potential, great potential to employ people and to provide exports. But up until

now, governments on both side of this House done very little for the agricultural industry

in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Especially in secondary-processing - I know in my district alone, we

probably have two of the biggest root crop farmers in Newfoundland and Labrador. In the

area, the Member for Terra Nova's area, the bordering district, we have four large dairy

operations employing people twelve months of the year, helping the economy in that

particular area.

Great opportunities, but there has been very little help from

government, Mr. Speaker, from this government or from governments of years gone by. When

you see milk being taken from this Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - carried to the Atlantic Provinces and brought

back here as secondary products and marketed on the shelves, it makes me wonder -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - how much effort we are putting into the

agriculture industry.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

Does he have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is contrast in the two statements today, the Minister of

Fisheries and the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

The Minister of Fisheries is talking about our fishery being valued at

$575 million and the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture is talking about agrifoods being

worth $375 million. That is half the value. Awareness is important. It is a very, very

important industry. I think the government has to be far more aggressive in pursuing that.

Obviously the potential, if it is already half the fishery, is far greater, as the Members

for Humber Valley and Port au Port know, and other members from those areas that produce

agriculture. There must be far more aggressive action on the part of government.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, yesterday at O'Donel High School in Mount

Pearl the Member for Terra Nova, on my behalf, and officials from ACOA released a CD-ROM

entitled, We're Doing It Right Here. That CD-ROM is designed to provide youth with a

snapshot of the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador by describing the skills that young

people will need to participate successfully in the economy.

This is an important educational tool to inspire the young people of

the Province; to make them aware of the many opportunities available for those with an

entrepreneurial spirit.

Mr. Speaker, many young people have limited appreciation of the local

economy and the many successful entrepreneurs who are creating new wealth and sustainable

jobs in our Province. To address this, the Department of Development and Rural Renewal has

been delivering a program called Getting the Message Out to high schools for the last two

years. I might say this is current, and will probably be re-announced in another ten years

again.

Given the need to communicate well with students, my department used

college and university students, as a peer group, to deliver the program. While we have

been able to reach around 160 high schools each year and make another forty presentations

to various other youth groups, the demand for the program has grown dramatically over the

past year, as young people became aware of these success stories.

This new CD-ROM now allows us to reach every high school in the

Province and can be retained as a reference tool for students throughout the Province.

Mr. Speaker, we chose the CD-ROM format to deliver these local success

stories because electronic communications is a young people's medium, one they seem to

take to naturally. A CD-ROM allows students to use the material in a variety of ways. They

can receive the straight presentation, or use the raw data from the presentation to help

them with class projects. So, perhaps a CD-ROM version is, in some ways, even better than

a live presentation itself.

Mr. Speaker, my Department intends to update the Getting the Message

Out CD-ROM regularly so that it is a continuing source of information and inspiration for

teachers and students. As new companies emerge and existing companies expand their

horizons, we will include them so that the CD will be a continuous record of economic

achievements in our Province.

Mr. Speaker, I will today provide all members of the House of Assembly

and members of the press with CD copies of Getting the Message Out. Anyone who views this

CD will be impressed and inspired by the positive economic changes that are taking place

in Newfoundland and Labrador; and, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that would be even true of the

Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The good news quest, Mr. Speaker.

There is no doubt about it that this tool, this CD-ROM - I know there

are members in the House who have used it on occasion - is a good way for technology,

especially with the geography of this Province and rural Newfoundland and so on, that

students can avail of such things as this and see positive things that are happening in

the Province. Of course they also see the negative things that are happening in the

Province, but we would like for them to take

part in that, use this ROM, to see what is

happening and good. At the same time, I say to the minister, there are a lot of young

people in this Province, he is right, entrepreneurs with some real good ideas. They have

been in my office and every office in this Legislature with good ideas, but the truth is

that you run into a lot of red tape instead of the red carpet when it comes to their own

ideas of expanding business in the Province.

Some of them make it through the system, others drop off and give up on

their ideas. So what we really have to do, besides the CD-ROM, is to make sure that any of

these young people with good ideas around this Province can come into this Legislature, or

come into these buildings, go to the different ministers and be able to get through the

system and, of course, be able to go through and fulfil their ideas and make some

meaningful jobs instead of seeing 11,000 people leave this Province, as we saw last year.

Yes, it is a tool that can be used very well. Yes, it is something that

should be used by students around the Province. It is technology that can be used by

students.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SHELLEY: And hopefully we will see a lot more young people in

this Province stay here and develop their ideas.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, does

he have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is all very interesting, it is high tech and all that sort of

stuff. I wonder how many members of this House even know how to turn on a computer, Mr.

Speaker, let alone put in a CD-ROM and get it to do something.

Mr. Speaker, if this is going to be presented and updated regularly, I

hope it is going to be updated more regularly than the tourism web site; because we do an

awful lot of talk about technology, but a computer to run this would cost about $2,000. I

wonder how many people in this Province actually have access to this kind of material.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for

the Acting Premier.

Recently, in some conversations that I have had with the Department of

Fisheries and Oceans with respect to the Coast Guard, it is apparent that the Coast Guard

is in for some further reductions from the federal budget to the amount of $4 million to

$5 million.

I would like to ask the government, through the Acting Premier: Is he

aware of this? If so, have they had any discussions with the federal department with

respect to the situation I have just outlined?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the Premier's absence, I have to say personally I am not aware. I

will check with some of the officials and find out if we have had any consultation with

Ottawa on the matter.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, my understanding, in speaking with

officials there from the department, is that there is about $4 million to $5 million that

will be cut from the Coast Guard budget. The impacts will be swift, severe and immediate.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) supplement.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am going to get to it, I say to the Government

House Leader. You are the House Leader; you are not the Speaker of the House. If you want

to get up and ask a question or (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Exactly, but this is the Speaker. I am in the process

of asking a question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the protection you are providing from the Government House

Leader.

I say to the Minister of Finance - in view of his asking the questions

- my understanding is that these program cuts will affect about 100 people, drastically

reduce the service to the provincial government. I would like to ask him today: Will he

take it upon himself today to contact the federal department and report back to this House

on the issue with respect to funding being clawed back from the Coast Guard?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Over the last several years, we have repeatedly emphasized to the

federal government that we are very concerned about the impact of federal cuts on this

Province. I would venture to say that the largest impact in any province in the country

has been Newfoundland and Labrador because we have, in many cases, a fairly substantial

group of federal civil servants in areas like the Coast Guard, like the fishery.

What I had indicated earlier is that, being Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board, this does not come directly under my department but I will certainly

undertake to check with our officials, as I say, probably someone in Intergovernmental

Affairs, to see if we have been advised of the proposed cuts. I can assure the hon. member

that it is our policy that we seek to protect the fishery, we seek to protect the Coast

Guard, which is critical in this Province in Search and Rescue and if these cuts are going

to have a very substantial impact we will certainly voice our concerns to the federal

government.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if these cuts are pending it is another

example of where certainly in the last two to three years the federal government has

downloaded significantly on this Province. We have seen decisions with respect to Marine

Atlantic; we have seen the downloading from the federal government to the provincial

government; we have seen claw-backs on UI where Newfoundland and Labrador bore - about 30

per cent of all the money saved was taken out of this Province.

Is the minister concerned that the federal government's activity

generally in this Province - in the services they provide, the type of downloading that is

occurring - that this Province is taking more a brunt than any other province? Is he

concerned about that trend, that the federal government is eliminating services and that

is causing severe hardship on the people of the Province? If so, is the government

generally taking a thrust to deal with the federal government on the downloading that is

occurring?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Yes, absolutely, Mr. Speaker. I have repeatedly said

that at federal Finance Ministers' meetings. In fact, I will be meeting with my other

counterparts of the other provinces and the federal minister on June 15, in Ottawa. I

would add to the list the hon. member says. I am very concerned that CHST has been cut

from an amount in excess of $400 million, down presently to something in the order of

about $280 million. I am very concerned that equalization has been eroded in the Province

because as we come to the point where we start to prosper again, our numbers are declining

and we are losing substantially more equalization than we should.

I would say to the hon. member that the fact that we brought these and

other concerns to the federal government is having something of an impact. At the last

meeting - I believe it was in Fredericton; it was in New Brunswick - the other ministers

agreed in principle to a population floor for equalization. So we are trying to work with

the other ministers and bring forward a position to the federal government that would

insulate provinces that find themselves in Newfoundland's position with declining

populations from severe impact on equalization.

I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member. The greatest impact on the

federal budget in (inaudible) over the last number of years in balancing this budget, has

not been on their own direct budget but rather in their transfers to the Province, and

those cuts were substantially more than they inflicted on themselves. So I agree entirely

with what the hon. member says.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister, when he has discussions with the

federal department, at DFO which is responsible for the Coast Guard, would he take the

time to outline the following concerns: that a reduction in service or programs to the

Canadian Coast Guard will affect our ability to patrol the offshore; in real terms, affect

our ability to monitor any overfishing, if any, that is going on.

Will he also take the time to outline the significant impacts

employment-wise that it will have on the Province? Will he also take the time to outline

the concerns with respect to the risk management, our ability to respond to situations or

emergencies that exist offshore, especially in light of the fact of the emerging and

growing oil and gas industry that is taking place off our coast?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Yes, of course, Mr. Speaker. I would probably put them

in a different order. The last point I thought he raised was the one I raised earlier, and

the one that I think is most apparent to most people. If the Coast Guard activity - Search

and Rescue in particular - is cut substantially, then of course it will erode our ability

to offer sufficient and appropriate marine protection to people who have to venture on the

seas. That is something that concerns us to the greatest extent. Of course patrolling our

fisheries, which is a federal responsibility, and employment are legitimate concerns as

well.

These are all part of what we have been representing to Ottawa and what

we will continue to do. I will certainly undertake to find out what information we have to

report back to the House.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions were intended for the Minister of Education but I will

direct them to the acting minister. They concern the political interference and the crass

political manipulation of education and decision-making in the Vista School District by

the Premier's parliamentary assistant.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the question: Why has the minister and this

government condoned the intrusion into the internal decision-making processes of the Vista

School Board? Is the government not at all concerned with what this political intrusion

means in terms of the autonomy that we have supposedly given to all elected school boards

in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, it certainly is true that the school board

has the decision making power, and that is exactly what happened in this case. The school

board made the decision and this government supports the school board's decision.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford

Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Acting Minister of Education may wish to note that the Minister of

Education the other day talked about words like school board autonomy. However, if the

recent interference and the manipulation for crass political ends is to be the new way of

managing education in this Province, we have moved from a church run system of governance

to a politician run system.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader,on a point of

order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I know it's rare in Question Period to rise

on a point of order, but the hon. gentleman is making statements which we all know in this

House not to be true. There was no manipulation of the school board. A member of this

House did what a member, any member, is supposed to do: represent his constituents. To

suggest that he used the office of parliamentary assistant to the Premier is totally wrong

and totally out of order. The hon. gentleman should behave himself better.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

No point of order.

I ask the hon. member to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

It should require no

preambles.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I ask the acting minister: In view of

what has happened in the Vista school board, what steps has your government taken to

assure school boards that your caucus will not use the school system as a political

football for your own narrow political interests?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, the school boards have been democratically

elected, they have been given autonomy, they have been given authority under the schools

act by this hon. Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: This government finds truly, truly reprehensible the

statements that are being made in this House this afternoon. All of us as MHAs, it is part

of our job to represent our constituents. In this instance this MHA represented his

constituents. He did not interfere and do political interference. I find it truly

reprehensible that these accusations are being made in this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford

Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to ask the minister: Why did your government commit $280,000 of

taxpayers' money to maintain three existing schools at subsistence levels, when the Vista

school board's own consultant clearly showed that a two-school system offered a much

better program of studies to students at a much lower cost?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the member is asking the question

in the wrong direction. It is the school board that must be asked these questions. This

was a school board decision. This government supports the decisions of the school board.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford

Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that we have asked the question to the school

board, and school board trustees have told us there was crass political interference.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. H. HODDER: That is why I bring the questions here to the

Legislature today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his

question.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the parents of Southern Harbour, who

are in the galleries today, believe the Member for Bellevue (inaudible) -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

No

preamble is required.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Bellevue is obviously

motivated by -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I ask the acting minister: Why has your

government returned to the Smallwoodian style of vindictiveness and intimidation with a

Tobin flair for fanfare and pork-barrelling?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr,. Speaker, that does not deserve an answer. I have

never, in my two-and-a-half years in this House, heard a question stated in such a way. It

is truly reprehensible. Talk about politicking! Talk about grand-standing to the gallery!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS KELLY: I cannot believe I am hearing this question. It does not

deserve an answer. I would not sink that low.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley, final supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the people of Southern Harbour have

been told that they do not deserve an answer. According to the course selection

information distributed by school board officials two weeks ago, the status quo of the

three schools would mean only thirteen courses are offered to Level I students next year,

and two of these would be by Distance Education.

However, a two school system would offer Level I students twenty-one

courses -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his

question.

MR. H. HODDER: - with no courses for Distant Education.

Mr. Speaker, how can the government justify or approve such an inferior

program of course selection, when there are clear alternatives regularly available that

will offer a greatly improved educational program to the students of that part of the

Vista School Board district.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, on the one hand the member is suggesting,

that we offer autonomy to the school board and making such vile accusations. Then the next

minute he is asking: Why would we ever approve such and such a thing?

I have to say to you, the school board makes the decisions. I think the

statement you just made was highly insulting to the school board. The school boards are

democratically elected, doing the very best job that they can do, and I understand in this

instance are planning for the future and over the next few years will make their plans

known. I support the decisions that the school board has made, the Minister of Education

supports them and this government supports them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to ask the minister as well: With a three school system, or the

status quo, it means that primary and elementary students will be in all multi-graded

classrooms next year, however, a two school system which was the recommendation of Vista

school board would mean that all multi-grading at the primary and elementary levels would

be eliminated. Why, Madam Minister, in your acting capacity, will your government not go

to the Vista school board and tell them that their original recommendation for a two

school system is the best option for the children of that district?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: I cannot believe what I just heard, Mr. Speaker, that he

is asking us to go to the school board after demanding that we give the school board

autonomy. Then: Why are we not going to the school board to make demands?

The reason that we are not going to the school board to make demands,

for one thing we support the decisions of the school board. They are democratically

elected. I cannot believe what I am hearing here this afternoon. These school boards,

under the School Act, have been given authority and we intend to give them the authority.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley, on a

supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I agree that we give them the authority. But, I am saying to the

government: Let them exercise it without interference.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in the March Budget, there was great

fan-fare about the $50 million allocated for school construction over the next two years,

and that was a good idea. Given that Newfoundland and Labrador Investment Corporation

Directors are senior civil servants and given that the minister has clearly replaced the

church run system with a politician run system, I want to ask the question: Will the

government now admit that the $50 million allocated is now open for political abuse and

for Liberal style pork barrelling?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I absolutely cannot believe the disrespect

that this member is showing to our whole education system. We have school boards elected

which make recommendations, these recommendations are assessed by professionals, and

within the $50 million - you know $50 million is a lot of money to spend over two years.

But there are more needs out there, believe it or not, than even $50 million. Priorities

have to be assessed, put in place and we will do the very best we can to make the most

urgently needed repairs, and new schools put in place, as quickly as possible for the

students of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community

Service.

The policy of taking blood from a cancer patients has changed as of

last Friday, May 22. Cancer patients, who normally came to the Dr. Bliss Murphy Cancer

Centre, could have their blood taken there where they have quite access. As of last

Friday, they have to go to the lab at the Health Science Centre where they have to line up

for lengthy periods of time.

I ask the minister: Does she consider this to be fair treatment to the

very sick, many of whom are fighting for their lives?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This policy, if in fact it is a policy, changes one that has been set

by the St. John's Health Care Corporation, and I would ask that the member speak to the

Health Care Corporation on the day-to-day activities that occur in their organization or

other boards as they are brought forward to him, and as I would do, Mr. Speaker, were they

brought forward to me.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Two weeks ago she told me to speak to the Community Health Board and

she asked them to change the policy, I must say to her.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Now I say to her today: One of the people who called

my office said they were fifty-first in line, in a line-up where they were calling number

nineteen at the time. He eventually missed his appointment with a specialist that he had

later that day and had to be squeezed in, after a very long waiting day for a very sick

person.

Minister, people drive in from out of town. There are people here in

the City of St. John's -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to

get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: In light of the fact, Minister, that there are people

receiving chemo therapy who are physically unable to wait for hours and hours at a time,

having to wait for a service that they had provided last week, I ask the minister: Will

she try, as she did two weeks ago, to have this policy changed so these people can get the

same level of service that they were getting last week and forever before that?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, there are tens and thousands of

interactions with our health care system in this Province every single year, and I will

say again, as I have said previously, if you have an issue with a particular isolated

case, or with a policy that is not set by the Department of Health but rather by the

day-to-day practice requirements of a particular board, then I would ask this member to go

and address that through the proper channels.

For the record, I think it is important to note, I did not direct any

board to do anything. I met with the board, I pointed out the issues and I asked them to

consider a possibility.

It is ultimately their decision to make in their practices, because we

have autonomous boards. While he does not agree with the board structure or support them,

in fact we do have autonomous boards and they do the day-to-day running of our health care

system, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: The minister might try to remove herself from the

health care system. She is the one responsible for seeing that funding goes to those

hospital boards to be able to do the job. When they do not get funding, they eliminate

services here that depend on this government to provide sufficient money to do that.

People receiving chemo therapy have a very low immunity level as well

as suffering from other effects from that treatment. Doesn't the minister feel that people

like this, sick people on chemo therapy who are fighting for their lives, having to wait

for lengthy periods, are jeopardizing their health in line-ups with fifty and sixty

people, and may increase their chances of picking up infection and having serious

repercussion? Doesn't the minister feel that is a problem? Doesn't she feel she has some

responsibility, as minister, to care for these people who are sick out in our Province

today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, we do give the funding to our health care system and, in fact,

this year, even though the federal government was not able to provide any funding, we were

able to provide an additional $32 million to increase and stabilize the services in our

system.

Mr. Speaker, I don't need the Leader of the Opposition, after twenty

years in the health care system, to point out to me the issues surrounding chemo therapy.

As a matter of fact, in this Province, we have broadened our base of care, even though he

may not necessarily agree with how we do it, because it is pointed out in previous

questions throughout the week. However, we have actually moved the treatment of cancer

patients closer to home, in a new model whereby much of the chemo therapy that people used

to come to tertiary care centres for, in fact now is able to be obtained very close to

their own homes.

I will say it again, Mr. Speaker, in case he did not hear it the first

time or the second time: If he has an issue with this particular case or with that policy,

he knows well enough that it is the St. John's Health Care Corporation - if that is who he

is talking about - in the city, through the Bliss Memorial Health Care Centre. He would

need to talk to them or talk to the Bliss Memorial Centre about that issue, Mr. Speaker,

if it is in relation to the day-to-day running and activities of that particular

institution.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Acting Premier. Recently the federal

Department of Justice passed opinion on the Labrador Metis land claim. This claim was for

Metis rights and title in Labrador, and the Justice Department made it public yesterday

that a case has not been established by the Metis. However, they did not deny their status

as aboriginal people.

I want to ask the minister today: What would be the political fall-out

of excluding 5,000 aboriginal people in Labrador from the land claim process?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, I think the member's question is misguided.

It is not a question of political fall-out, it is a question of whether or not justice has

been done.

It is easy for people to claim to have aboriginal status, but the hon.

member is inferring that the federal government is rejecting a legitimate aboriginal

claim. What the federal government has said is that it has examined the claim twice and

that there is no legitimate claim to aboriginal status. The whole question of aboriginal

rights, whether they exist or not, is totally a matter within the federal purview, and the

hon. member should address her questions to the federal government and not the provincial

government.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cartwright -

L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: I say to the minister: I am not misguided, and no, the

department has not made a ruling. They have merely passed a legal opinion that has not yet

been assessed by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. The minister

cannot deny that this aboriginal group which resides in this Province has a legitimate

claim and title to land where major development is occurring like the Voisey's Bay

project, the Lower Churchill project -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask her to get to her

question.

MS JONES: I want to ask the minister: How are the rights and

interests of these people going to be protected within the aboriginal claim area and

within this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about the ordinary

rights of Newfoundlanders on a day-to-day basis. What the hon. member is talking about is

a group that wants special status within the Province. Now, the federal government has

come to the conclusion that their claim is non-sufficient, that it is tenuous at best, and

frankly that the people do not have aboriginal status. There are many people in this

Province who can go back to their ancestry and find one or more aboriginal people. That is

insufficient.

There is a legal definition. The hon. member must know the complexities

of what constitutes aboriginal status in this country, and for her to stand in this House

and say that the government is not protecting the rights of these people is totally

inadequate, totally insufficient, and totally wrong.

What these people want is not the protections that are afforded to us

all by the provincial government. What they want is a tract of land, they want special

status, they want special rights, they want money, they want parts of Voisey's Bay, and so

on like that. There are groups that may be entitled to that, but the federal government

has made the determination that these people are not. As far as I can see, that is a

matter for the federal government to determine, and totally within their jurisdiction.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cartwright -

L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I say that it is the minister at this point

who is misguided. Because the aboriginal people, the Metis people, have been recognized by

the Department of Justice federally as aboriginal people. They have also been outlined by

the royal commission on aboriginal peoples, in their latest commission, that they are

indeed aboriginal people. I would have to say to the minister that they do reside in this

Province, they have legitimate standings as other aboriginal groups within this Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to her question.

MS JONES: My question to the minister is: Is the provincial

government willing to intervene in this process, aid the Labrador Metis people of Labrador

in their cause to have land claim recognition for the people they represent?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member has, in her question, put her finger on the very nub of

the issue. It's a land claim. Rather than share in the rights that we all have to the

resources of the Province, some people want preferential rights. In many cases aboriginal

people can make a legitimate claim. The issue is whether or not there is an aboriginal

society, and that decision has apparently gone against this particular group.

Now, we have many other groups in this Province that claim parts of

Newfoundland. There is a group in Quebec that claims it. There are other groups within the

Province and on the Island that make claims as well, but they have to establish that at

law they meet the criteria of an aboriginal people and an aboriginal society.

The federal government has said this group does not. They stand with

every person, or most of us in this House, I should say, who rank to have the same rights

as every other person who lives either in Newfoundland on the Island portion or in

Labrador. That is a provincial right, it's a general right. Before we accede to any

request for people to have land claims, special rights to the exclusion of other people of

this Province, we have to be very careful. We have to carefully weigh the whole notion of

Aboriginal association, Aboriginal societies and Aboriginal status, and it is not

something one should give lightly. If the federal government has made a determination that

these people do not need that societal criterion, then we should think very carefully

before we hand over some other vast tract of this Province to one group that makes a

claim, because the federal government believes to be spurious.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

On Wednesday, May 20 this House unanimously passed a resolution of

support for any initiatives of this government to press HRDC to continue funding for the

Youth Internship Programs.

I ask the Minister today: Where are these initiatives that we are

supposed to be supporting?

Because of this resolution, your government had in its hands unanimous

power - because of the unanimous resolution - to make a powerful case to Ottawa for

restored funding. Have you made this case to Ottawa or have you chosen to be passive in

ignoring this unanimous resolution of the House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, both the Minister of Education and I have

made representation to the Minister of HRDC in Ottawa, expressing this government's

support for the Youth Internship Program and for the Co-operative High School Programs

which were supported through that means.

In addition to this, at the present time, officials from my department

and from the Department of Education are setting up meetings with the HRDC officials here,

regionally, in order to address this issue further with them. I expect that it will take

into next week before we will have the results of that but the work continues.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, time for one

quick question.

MR. FITZGERALD: One quick question, Mr. Speaker, and my question is

to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

Today the minister announced the quota of 20,000 metric tons for the

3Ps cod fishery. I would like to ask him when we can expect to hear a quota announced for

2J+3kl on the Northeast Coast. I think the FRCC suggested 4,000 metric tons and the

fishermen suggested 15,000 metric tons. Maybe the minister would like to tell us how many

metric tons are going to be announced and when can we expect to hear it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: As the hon. member said to me regarding the ministerial

statement, Mr. Speaker, that was said yesterday on the Fisherman's Broadcast. There were

4,000 tons announced yesterday for 2J-3kl -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: - and it is not used as a directed fishery. It is going

to be used as central fishery and an offshore research fishery.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of the residents of

Southern Harbour. It reads as follows:

To the honourable Newfoundland and Labrador House of Assembly:

We, the constituents of the electoral District of Bellevue, appealing

to the Hon. House of Assembly for rectitude of our intentions, do solemnly publish and

declare, that the House instruct the hon. Minister of Education to abstain from

interfering with the decision-making powers of duly elected school boards and prohibit

members of the Hon. House of Assembly from exerting undue pressure on said school boards

which causes decisions to be made that are detrimental to the provision of educational

opportunity to our students.

By affixing our signatures to this petition, we therefore make this

request.

Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by many of the residents, just

about every resident, I do believe, of the Town of Southern Harbour.

Mr. Speaker, in the last several days we have become very much aware of

the interference by an hon. member into the decision-making processes of the Vista School

Board.

Back in February of this year, The Vista School Board Facility

Management Policy recommended a two school system for Sunnyside, Arnold's Cove and

Southern Harbour. Mr. Speaker, that would have meant that the school in Sunnyside would

have closed, and that the children from Kindergarten to Grade VI would have been taken

care of in a school in Arnold's Cove, and the existing school in Southern Harbour, which

is a fairly recent facility, eight or ten years old, would have accommodated all the

children from Grade VII to Grade XII.

Mr. Speaker, that would have meant, for example, if that were

implemented next year, that in Level I the existing system would offer Level I students

something like thirteen credits. However, if we were to go and have the system that the

school board recommended, these students could have twenty-one credits. Mr. Speaker,

similarly in Level II there would have been, with the existing system, about twelve or

thirteen credits. With the proposed system that the school board had, there would have

been twenty-three courses offered. In Level III, the same thing.

Mr. Speaker, what has happened here is a travesty. What has happened

here is that the children of that particular group of communities, next year, will be

exposed to a lesser quality of education. Instead of being able to take up to twenty

courses as options in each one of those grades they will have to take eight or ten or

twelve courses. Note that in all of these grades, if we keep the system that is there now,

some of those courses, at least two per grade, will have to be done by distance education.

Similarly, at the primary and elementary level, if we were to go to the

system that the school board wanted, there would be no multi-grading. There are enough

students in Sunnyside, Arnold's Cove and Southern Harbour. If they were all bused, as the

school board wanted, as the parents in the gallery wanted, to have their children bused

into Arnold's Cove, and they agree to that, we would have no multi-grading whatsoever.

There are enough students there to accommodate that.

Mr. Speaker, clearly what has happened here is that the Member for

Bellevue went out to the district, he supposedly took up a petition signed by parents -

and in the House the other day the Minister of Education said it was signed by 1,100

parents. Well now it seems to me that there is a total of about 400 students in all that

system. As a matter of fact, the petition was not circulated at all in Southern Harbour.

So, if we were to take out these parents and we were to say there are about 300 students

in Arnold's Cove, Sunnyside and that area, then if we say that each parent or family

group, if there are two, if there were no families with two children in the school system,

we would have a maximum of about 600 people who could sign the petition.

So, Mr. Speaker, where did the 1,100 names come from? They could not

have been signed by the parents, because mathematically it is not possible for that to

occur. Mr. Speaker, this kind of crass interference has to stop. The message has to go out

loud and clear if we are going to carry out the reforms that were promised in educational

referendum days, if we are going to carry forward on a new -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: - program of reform, then we can't have happen the

kinds of things that have happened out in the (inaudible) district. The children of

Newfoundland and Labrador should not be sacrificed.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand to support the petition as put forward by my colleague, the

Member for Waterford Valley. This petition is one of great significance, I say, Mr.

Speaker, and I say to the members of the House of Assembly. It deals with the fundamental

issue - and my colleague referred to it - the issue of reform and really what reform means

as it relates to education in our Province. One message that was loud and clear, and the

message that the Minister of Education keeps repeating, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that the

power of programming and curriculum and changes, as it relates to those schools and

communities under each particular jurisdiction, is left unfettered with the power of each

individual school board.

What we see here, Mr. Speaker, and what is most unfortunate is in the

very first year of school reform and what it is supposed to mean to our various

communities, we see interference without need. Interference of any kind is wrong, but in

this particular case what makes it particularly offensive is the fact that a decision was

made which was generally accepted by the various communities and by the individuals and

residents of these communities.

I met last year, Mr. Speaker, with the people of Southern Harbour. I

can tell you that the people of Southern Harbour have a very genuine interest and concern

for the well being of their children. They have beautiful facilities. I had a tour of the

schools. I also met with many of the parents, many of the teachers, and I can assure all

members in this House that the people of that particular community have in mind only what

is in the best interest and in the best welfare of their children.

If it means the closure of a school, so be it. Because what the people

of this community want is the best possible program, the best possible curriculum, the

best possible opportunity, for their schoolchildren. What they find offensive, Mr.

Speaker, is when an outside influence is taken into account to alter and change a decision

which met with what was in the best interest of their children.

Mr. Speaker, I stand today to endorse and support the people of

Southern Harbour, and to endorse and support the petition which has been presented by my

colleague, the Member for Waterford Valley; and hopefully let this particular example

serve as a lesson to all of us, I suppose, that once a legally entrenched body, a separate

legal entity, such as a school board, has made a decision which takes into account the

best interests of children, that decision should remain. It should not be interfered with,

it should be left unhurt, untouched, so that the children of this particular region are

served in the proper and appropriate way.

Mr. Speaker, this is an important petition. I am proud to second it. I

sincerely hope that all members take into account the gist and the importance of it.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I also stand to speak to this petition. I

would like to say to the Member for St. John's East, who just seconded this petition, that

I think it is time you followed your own advice.

I listen to many of you, as I listen to all of us on this side, being

members, being advocates, lobbying for constituents. I remember - I hope my memory serves

me correctly here - that this member was out talking to school boards last year on behalf

of Bishop O'Neil and asking: Could you please meet with people, could you please change,

could you please listen? That is what this member has done. I totally understand.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MS KELLY: Well, listen to the discussion that is going on about St.

Bon's these days.

All of this we have every right as citizens, as members, to be

addressing. The member did not do anything that could ever be worded as crass

interference. He was doing his job as a member, doing his work, you know, meeting on

behalf of his constituents at their request.

I understand the concerns of the parents of the students who were in

the gallery today, and those of all of the students and parents who are in that area.

Whenever we have change in our school system we need to be concerned, we need to always

look at what's happening, and to understand what is best for our students.

The members today need to understand that it is their school board they

have to meet with. The school board was democratically elected by the people of that

region, and the people of that region, I am sure, will work with the school board to find

a resolution that will suit everyone. I think it is important to say that we are carrying

out the reforms we promised, not as the member suggested. We are carrying out the reforms

that we promised by the fact that we have held the elections and school boards are making

their decisions, and we are accepting the decisions that the school boards made.

School boards have a very difficult task ahead of them, and it is

incumbent on all of us, members of government, members of the Opposition, parents,

students, and anyone interested, to support the school boards and to work with them.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Order No. 3, Concurrence Motions. We call

the Government Services Committee. I believe the Chairman is the Member for Topsail.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Topsail.

MR. WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It is certainly a pleasure for me to rise today as Chair of the

Government Services Committee and speak briefly in Concurrence debate.

First of all, I want to thank my colleagues on both sides of the House

for their commitment to the hearings and, of course, the ministers and their staff for

their appearance. I want to thank the Vice-Chair, the Member for Cape St. Francis, the

Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, the Member for Port au Port, the Member for

Conception Bay South, the Member for Trinity North, and the Member for St. John's East.

The Budget, entitled The Future is in Our Hands , is a very

appropriate title for this document. The government realizes we must prepare our Province

for a prosperous future as we enter the new millennium. Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of

approach that we get from members opposite, you know. Everything is quite well and serious

when they are up asking question, when they are making a point. But when a member on the

government side stands up, all you get is a heckle from the other side. How soon they

forget. How soon they forget - when their party was the government party in this House.

When we came here in 1989, with a debt, with a cost on interest of $550

million a year, $12,000 a minute. That is what the government had to pay to service the

debt.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) opinion or your honest opinion?

MR. WISEMAN: No, that is a mathematical opinion - to service the

debt created by that party opposite.

AN HON. MEMBER: How much?

MR. WISEMAN: Twelve thousand dollars a minute. That is what it was

costing, $12,000 a minute, by their mismanagement and misspending, without any conscience

of looking at where the people of this Province were going to end up.

As I started to speak on this particular Budget, I said that the title

of the Budget is very important and appropriate: The Future is in Our Hands . That

is right, Mr. Speaker, that is where it is.

I believe that this government has to be a responsible government and

do what is in the best interest of the people of this Province. The government realizes

that we must prepare our Province for a prosperous future as we enter the new millennium.

We have seen predictions, and I am just about to get to what the House

Leader is talking about. We have seen predictions by a number of financial institutions,

and more recently the Bank of Montreal, that our economic growth will lead the country.

When we look at this Budget document, this government has tried to

address what is a strong consensus in this Province. The government of this Province wants

to address basically what the people want done. Firstly, the Budget must be balanced. Yes,

it must be balanced. No longer can you spend willy-nilly without any hope or any

conscience of what is going to happen down the road. Secondly, extra money must go to

education, health care, and those in need. Over the last few weeks you have seen in this

House the commitment made by this government to all of these areas. Thirdly, the tax

burden must be reduced. This Budget ensures that such a consensus will not be ignored. The

Budget shows that we are aware of helping those who are in most need.

Mr. Speaker, the committee reviewed and approved the Budget for the

Department of Finance, including the Public Service Commission, the Department of

Government Services and Lands, the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, and

the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. It included the Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation.

This Budget is a very positive one, a very positive budget indeed,

dedicated to making very important improvements for the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

In this review process there has been little or not change in - the

questions that have been asked have been quickly answered. Our government is helping our

people gain employment, especially our youth. This year over $7.5 million will be directed

towards youth employment strategies, and $4.4 million will be provided in wage subsidies

to create up to 1,200 meaningful employment opportunities in the private and non-profit

sector. This combined amount of $11.9 million is dedicated towards youth employment

strategies.

Our government is constructing health care facilities across the

Province, providing $10 million this year to help stabilize hospital budgets, also

providing $50 million - $50 million - towards school construction and upgrading over the

next two years.

Our government is devoted to developing our infrastructure; $26.6

million in municipal capital works have been approved, and we will be improving our

highway system on both the Island portion of the Province and in Labrador by embarking on

the largest ever highway construction program in the history of this Province, some 453

kilometres of highway, construction dollars valued at $108 million. Can you imagine, Mr.

Speaker, the most money ever spent in this Province, $108 million!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Sure the Liberals are driving them all out; you

need a big highway.

MR. WISEMAN: The Trans-Labrador Highway construction, Mr. Speaker,

will receive $36 million -

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, drive them out of Labrador too while you're at

it.

MR. WISEMAN: The Member for St. John's South starts to whine. Every

time they hear positive news, they start to whine. That is what they are, Mr. Speaker, a

bunch of whiners and nay-sayers.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, some $36 million will be spent on the Trans-Labrador

Highway, while $16 million will be given to provincial road construction and improvements.

This does not include the $56 million provided to improve the Trans-Canada Highway and our

trunk roads under the Federal/Provincial Transportation Initiative.

We are also taking responsibility for the Coastal Labrador ferry

service for the first time, and we are making positive changes such as no rate increase

for the first time in five years. We are helping small businesses by changing the payroll

tax, and also helping post-secondary students with $4 million in scholarships. So, Mr.

Speaker, this government has really and truly shifted its strategies from mega-projects to

people projects.

The new Department of Health and Community Services was established to

integrate the provision of our child and family health services through existing regional

community health boards. There is funding for new transitional homes in Nain and on the

Burin Peninsula, and the basic rate for individuals and families received an increase

equivalent to those in our public service. Those families on the Labrador Coast with

dependent children will receive $150 a month cost of living allowance.

Mr. Speaker, we hear every day that this Province's prospects are

getting better, but we cannot rely on prospects to pay our bills. We must manage our

finances wisely, and the Budget for this year does this by focusing on our health care

system, education, persons with disability, and support for low and middle income

families.

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to support this document as we enter a new

century, and Newfoundland and Labrador's place in the Federation of Canada looks bright as

we enter the year 2000.

AN HON. MEMBER: Is his time up yet?

MR. WISEMAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I can understand the members

opposite. I can understand them getting a little bit testy every now and then, when they

hear about all the good news that this government intends to do; and, Mr. Speaker, they

will do it.

The Minister of Human Resources and Employment announced the other day

that we would be given the total amount of the Child Benefit to the people of this

Province.

Mr. Speaker, as I said in the beginning, this government has shifted

its strategy from mega-projects to people projects. It has always been the Liberal way to

look after people and to look after their needs, because that, Mr. Speaker, is what

Liberalism is all about. Now, I know the members opposite have a problem understanding

that philosophy. They have always been business orientated, business driven, and always

look to the mega-bucks for their hopes and their wishes.

Mr. Speaker, we think back to the 1980s, how they called three

elections on the offshore and they never did get to sign a deal. When that crowd over

there were members, when they were the government, three elections, Mr. Speaker, they

promised us pies in the sky. That is why when they sit in Opposition today they have so

many problems dealing with this government, because this government is forthright, up

front and honest with the people of this Province. We don't make those kinds of promises.

We deliver. We stand up, we say what we are going to do, and we do it.

When I saw the Minister of Human Resources and Employment stand in this

House the other day and stop the changes that the federal government wanted this Province

to do, when I looked across the way and saw the look on the faces of these people

opposite, then I knew that we were doing the right thing. They looked like they were on

the way out. In fact, I was going to ask our Minister of Health and Community Services to

go over and see if she could in some way check their respiratory signs to see if they were

still breathing, because they knew what this government was doing was right, because the

members on this side stand to be counted. They stand and say what they think, and this

government listens to people. We are here to represent people.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, we have the hon. Member for St. John's

West, who stood in this House with petition after petition on Sunday shopping. Lo and

behold, she wanted to reserve Sunday shopping, not to be shopping on Sunday, because she

wanted to go to the flea market. That is what she wanted to do, she wanted to go to the

flea market! Now if going to the flea market on Sunday is not Sunday shopping, then I

don't know what Sunday shopping is!

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's West on -

MR. WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I so move this

report.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Is the hon. the Member for St. John's West on a point of order?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I am on a point of order. At no point during my

petitions did I say I wanted to go to the flea market. At least the petitions I put in

were the ones worded by the petitioners, not ones that - I did not reword and fraudulently

present.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader to the point of order.

MR. TULK: To that point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Government House Leader asked to speak to the point of order.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible) that the Government House Leader speaks to

the point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. lady that her point

of order is not a point of order. If she can't stand the heat then she - let me just say

this to her, though, that the point was well taken that she made about the Member for

Topsail. But if she can't stand the heat, she might as well get out of the kitchen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was my turn to get up today and a say a few words on the Budget.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I have recognized the hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much time do I have, Mr. Speaker? Twenty minutes?

MR. SPEAKER: The member has thirty minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thirty minutes? I thought I had ten minutes. Thank

you, I say to the Minister of Justice. I thought I had ten minutes; I have thirty minutes.

Mr. Speaker, I sat in my place today wondering what I was going to say,

and when the Member for Topsail got up I had no worries. I have a good half-hour here now

just to respond to what the Member for Topsail had to say. What planet does that man live

on? I don't know, that is for sure. There is a show on television now called 3rd Rock

From the Sun , and I am sure that he must be from some other planet than this planet

Earth, with the comments he made today in this House of Assembly.

First of all, he said, in 1989 we came in here - `we', which would

normally include the person - `we', me. He wasn't here. The first time I saw his face in

here was in 1996, two years ago. He is talking about `we' coming in here and straightening

up the mess that was left for them to straighten up.

He talked about the $550 million debt of this Province. Here are the

words he used: The previous Administration had no conscience of spending.

For that to come from that side of the House in this House of Assembly

is ludicrous, when we know - just look at the record of this Administration since 1989. We

had Trans City, which by the time it is all said and done will cost the taxpayers of this

Province $40 million. Because they went for a request for a proposal, changed the tender

mid-stream, and put it out, and accepted a proposal.

The judge down here in the court ruled against the government. He said

they did something wrong in accepting the Trans City deal. We talk about upwards of $40

million, and a member on that side of the House has the audacity, Mr. Speaker, to say that

the previous administration had no conscience of spending.

Also, Mr. Speaker - and I said it here many times before - something

that always boils my blood is what went on with the previous Premier in this House of

Assembly, not the one who is there now. He has his own load to carry, I say, Mr. Speaker,

and we will show you what that is as time goes by.

I will tell you this, the previous Premier and members on that front

bench there, a good many of them, Mr. Speaker, were involved in this Hydro fiasco, the

privatization of Newfoundland Hydro. We, on this side of the House, led the charge to stop

that, Mr. Speaker. We led the charge and we stopped it. We stopped that side of the House

from privatizing Newfoundland Hydro. It cost the people of this Province -

AN HON. MEMBER: It was Sue (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Sue got all the answers from us, my son; that is

right.

Ten million, Mr. Speaker, and not one job created. It cost the people

of this Province $10 million, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, and not

one job created. Yes, it was us who led the opposition. Why did they stop, and, Mr.

Speaker, what are they doing now? We have the member over there talking about balancing

the budget, the Member for Topsail, and they are using the sales from Newfoundland Hydro

to balance the budget.

MR. TULK: Do you know what I did today?

MR. J. BYRNE: What did you do today?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm sure. I find that hard to believe, I say to the

Government House Leader. The Government House Leader says he phoned the previous Premier

and wished him the very best on his new appointment as a judge. I congratulate him too. I

think that man could be a fair and impartial justice.

MR. TULK: He found an ideal spot now.

MR. J. BYRNE: And I think he has found the ideal spot. It is

something I think he was looking forward to for a long, long time. I really don't know

what the man was doing in politics in the first place, Mr. Speaker. I think he was begged,

coerced, forced to come back to try and lead that crowd over there to victory, Mr.

Speaker.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, back to what the Member for Topsail was talking

about, and Newfoundland Hydro. He talking about balancing the budget, what the people

want. They were trying to sell off Newfoundland Hydro, give it away. They were talking

about giving it away, Mr. Speaker. To whom, is the question? Was it going to be their

Liberal buddies? I wonder who was going to get it, Mr. Speaker? I don't know, but it

looked that way from my point of view, from my perspective. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, that was at the time -

AN HON. MEMBER: Is that a new tie?

MR. J. BYRNE: That's a very old tie, I say to the member and I know

he is trying to distract me.

That was at the very time - I tell you how serious I thought it was and

how I wanted to oppose Newfoundland Hydro - it was at a time when I had -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Who has the floor, you or I?

It was at a time, Mr. Speaker, when I had very serious surgery. I was

in hospital -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) called before.

MR. J. BYRNE: Here boy, get up.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I will get on with it. We are talking about

balancing the Budget, that this is what the people want. I have another point to make with

respect to that. Yes, we should have a balanced Budget. That is what all the provinces and

all the countries in the world are looking toward these days, Mr. Speaker, a balanced

budget. But, if you compare it to a family, Mr. Speaker, you want to balance your budget

there is no doubt about that, but how fast do you do it? It took us forty or fifty years

to get into the position we were in, Mr. Speaker, because it was all led by the Prime

Minister of the country. The first deficit spending in Canada, by the way, was started by

the former Prime Minister Trudeau, Mr. Speaker.

If you compare it to a family, you have to look at the hardships that

balancing the Budget would cause the people of the Province or any province. So if you

have a family - take me for example. Say I have a mortgage of $100,000 and it is there for

twenty years, I am going to pay it off in twenty years, but I am going to say: No, no, no,

I cannot have that, I cannot have proper planning, so I am going to pay that off in five

years. But, I am not going to have any heat in my house, I am not going to have any food

in my house, I am not going to have my house insured in case it burns down. I am causing

hardships to my family. It is not realistic how fast you did it, Mr. Speaker.

The problem with that side, Mr. Speaker, in balancing the Budget - and

it is the same thing with the Prime Minister. Well, yes, he is the Prime Minister but Paul

Martin up there, Mr. Speaker. The hardships that he has imposed upon the provinces, Mr.

Speaker, are unreal and are unacceptable.

It is nice and hunky-dory to say that we have a balanced Budget, but

what hardships did it cause over the time that they were trying to balance the Budget. We

have not really seen the affects of balancing the Budget in our Province and in the

country.

For example, Mr. Speaker, in the hospitals, we saw the cuts to social

and health transfer payments -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I will adjourn in a couple of minutes, I say to the

minister. I have to come back, I have to finish off my half-hour. Thank you to the

Minister of Justice. I really did not realize I had a half-hour. I appreciate it.

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the situation in the Province, it has been

the downloading from the federal government to the provinces. What do we have on this side

of the House, Mr. Speaker? The people who are supposed to be taking care of, looking out

for the interests and the rights of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, what they

were elected to do. All we have, Mr. Speaker, is: Yes minister. Yes, Prime Minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: What is that? Tell me.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that all?

Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader is over there making comments

about polls. He is always at it. Whenever I get up to speak, he is always talking about

polls for some strange reason. As a matter of fact, he sends over copies of polls to me. I

stand to be correct. I have seen polls that I think were made up. I really do not think

they were legit.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)

MR. J. BYRNE: You just said it, boy.

I have seen certain sections of polls and I really question if they are

legit or not. I just cannot see how one individual, as they say, could be so high in the

polls. It is me they are talking about, Mr. Speaker, so high in the polls. I guess they

cannot accept it.

The Member for Topsail is in his chair and I am so pleased to see him

there, so he can hear the comments that I have to make about his speech and how far off

base that man is. He does not have a clue, not a click, not an iota, of what is going on

in this Province today.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I won't get into that.

I say, Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe what that man thinks.

It is late in the evening, Mr. Speaker, and we are going to adjourn for

a couple of hours. I have a lot of comments to make on the words of the Member for

Topsail, so I will continue when we come back here at 7:00 p.m.

So, I say to the Government House Leader, I am going to adjourn debate

now. Can I move adjournment until 7:00 p.m.?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think the agreement was that we would not adjourn, we would just

recess for two hours and come back at 7:00.

MR. J. BYRNE: I recess, whatever.

MR. SPEAKER: Okay, we will come back at 7:00.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if I could, just to remind members, while we

are at recess, that the House comes back at 7:00 p.m. We are only recessed, we are not

adjourned. I should also remind members that we have a vote at 7:00 p.m.

Recess

[Continuation of today's sitting will be found in Hansard No. 34A]

May 28, 1998 HOUSE OF

ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIII No. 34A

[Continuation of Sitting]

MR. SPEAKER (Snow) : Order, please!

Before we begin our proceedings, the Chair would like to draw to the

attention of members that one of our Pages, Roxanne Sinyard, has graduated from

Memorial University and received her Bachelor of Arts yesterday.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: When we recessed we were debating the Concurrence Motion for

the Government Services Committee. The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, I

believe, adjourned the debate.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I think we are ready for the motion on the first

head of Government Services, after the Speaker puts the motion.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to concur on the report of

the Government Services Committee?

All those in favour, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those opposed, `nay'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

Motion carried.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Order No. 3(

b) Social Services Committee

Concurrence Debate.

MR. SPEAKER: The Concurrence Motion on the Social Services Committee.

The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to bring in the Concurrence Motion on the Social Services

Committee, and if I could just find my notes I think we would be all set to go.

I would just first of all like to thank the members of the Committee, in

particular the Vice-Chair, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MERCER: Well, I think the hon. the Member for Ferryland is indeed an

hon. gentlemen. I would say that during the debate we had great camaraderie.

There was a lot of good nature. I think I have now found my notes.

The Social Services Committee, I must say, were a very amicable group of

individuals, with possibly one exception, and I would not want to say anything

disparaging about the Member for Waterford Valley. If he were here I would have

said the same thing. The Member for Waterford Valley had a tendency to go on and

on and on. It was kind of nice, though, to see his own members slip me notes and

say, `Look, interject. Bring the debate to a conclusion'. And many times we did

that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MERCER: That is my hon. friend from Port de Grave, but that is okay,

Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MERCER: No problem, Mr. Speaker. I would not want to repeat what I

just said, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MERCER: I would indicate that the Social Services Committee - we did

have a good discussion and a good debate, as I said, with the possible one

exception of the Member for Waterford Valley who tended to run on and on. His

own members wanted him to sit down because they had caucus and things like that,

and he just would not. He just kept going on like the rabbit with the Eveready

battery, or something like that.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Energizer.

MR. MERCER: That is it, the Energizer.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not the coppertop.

MR. MERCER: No, not the coppertop. The Energizer lasts much, much longer.

I think the type of discussion and debate we had, and the camaraderie that we

had in the Committee, faceted good discussion, and there was a minimum of

politics being parleyed. Answers were given with a good feeling, and questions

were asked in the same way.

However, Mr. Speaker, we did have other members appear before the committee

who tended to ramble on a little bit. I would not want to draw attention to the

hon. the Minister of Education, but he did tend to say a lot of words. When he

could have used one or two, he tended to use ten or twelve. That is what we have

come to learn and expect and love from our beloved Minister of Education. I wish

he were here to hear all the sucking up I am doing to him at the moment.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to report that the Social Services Committee

did consider all of the matters to which it was referred and reviewed the

Estimates of the Department of Health and Community Services, the Department of

Education, the Department of Human Resources and Employment, the Department of

Environment and Labour, and the Department of Justice; heads which accounted for

some $2.2 billion, or about 65 per cent of the total provincial Budget. I am

pleased to report that these Budget Estimates were considered, and that they

were all approved without amendment.

I probably could say a lot more but I probably should not. I would like for

the hon. members now to engage in the debate on the Estimates of the Social

Services Committee. With these few remarks I move adoption of the Committee's

report, and look forward to what I am sure will be a very enlightening debate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am just going to continue on with a few words I was saying this afternoon

when the Member for Topsail was on his feet singing the glories, like the Member

for Labrador West does all the time, of this Administration. The preacher, the

resoluter from Labrador West, the only member on that side of the House who is

consistently getting on his feet with resolutions. A lot of them don't make

sense, and we have problems with a lot of them -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Who did? One. I said one, one of many that you present, the

Member for Labrador West. He seems the only one on that side of the House who

consistently presents resolutions for some reason or other. I don't know if he

is trying to get Brownie points, Mr. Speaker, from the Premier and looking

forward to better days ahead, to move from the back benches back there up to the

front. A long time coming, I would say, no doubt there. There are other members

on that side of the House who have a better chance to become ministers of the

government than the Member for Labrador West.

In the meantime, the Member for Topsail was up today singing the praises of

the Budget that was brought down by this Administration. He spoke about the

previous Administration having no conscience in spending money. I think I

addressed that earlier on today, so I won't cover that ground again tonight. He

talked about the future being in our hands, which I think is the title of the

Budget, is it, The Future is in Our Hands ? Whose hands would it be in? It

is up to us to form the future for generations to come. We have to look at the

situation the Province is in today, look at the situation the Province was in

previous years, and we have to learn from our mistakes. We have to learn from

the mistakes of the Liberal Administration years ago where they went tooth and

nail after major mega-projects, all kinds of major industries going to come to

the Island of Newfoundland, and major industries going to come to Labrador; like

we say, shoe factories, chocolate factories, and all that kind of thing over the

years.

We have to get away from that mind-set, I say, and we have to look at the

individuals in this Province, the small - I can't say small individuals because

we are all sizes, I suppose, but what we have to look at is the individual

entrepreneur in the Province. Look at the jobs that have been created across

this country over the past number of years. It is the small enterprises that

have created the jobs - I think the stats will show that - not the big, major,

mega-projects. It is great to have them if they come, Mr. Speaker.

The last election was won on hope, and there are lots of people yet still

waiting and waiting for a better tomorrow. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker,

there has been an individual out here this past week in the lobby waiting for a

better tomorrow after going through arbitration and winning the arbitration.

There were questions asked in this House of Assembly about that individual

trying to get his rights. An arbitration board ruled unanimously in favour of

that individual, and this Administration has put him in the courts, trying to

delay -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) sixty-nine.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who is sixty-nine?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You are sixty-nine? The Member for Windsor - Springdale

just told me he is sixty-nine years-old, I think. He said something about

sixty-nine. He acts it in this House of Assembly. He acts sixty-nine, that's for

sure. He has very little to say in this House of Assembly, very little, unless

we irritate him and rile him up, get him up on his feet to say a few words about

what is going on in the Province.

Anyway, they are talking about some foolish poll they had done, and they try

to distract us.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I am being interrupted by members on the other

side of the House. They are talking about this poll. The Government House Leader

said they were at 54 per cent, the Member for Labrador West said they were at 64

per cent, the Member for Windsor - Springdale said they are at 69 per cent, so

they are going to have to get their story straight.

Mr. Speaker, in the last election this Administration started out at 70 per

cent in the polls, and what did they end up with? Forty-something percent, Mr.

Speaker. So if they are at 50 per cent in the polls now, we can guarantee you we

are going to form the next government. We are going to form the next government,

no problem at all. I am confident, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack? Jack? Jack?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, do you hear them yapping out at me saying:

Jack, Jack, Jack? What's wrong with them?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: You are supposed to refer to a member by the district.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, thank you.

Now back to what the Member for Topsail was saying today. He talked about -

just listen to this now. Here are the Budget Highlights of this Administration

for 1998. Here is reality. He talked about education, extra dollars. I remember

the Premier and the Minister of Education going around this Province in a

referendum saying that the money saved will go back into education.

Mr. Speaker, this is the Budget, the highlights of the Budget. Let me see

here now; I will see if I can find the point I am making. In the

Summary of

Gross Government Expenditures - this is their own document. The Member for

Topsail was up saying they are putting more into education. Here are the

expenditures on education.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I will tell you what is going on here on education, as soon

as I can locate it. Education, here we are.

Education Facilities: in 1997-1998, they spent $40,941,000. In 1998-1999,

they are spending $23,749,000. That is a difference of $17 million, and the

Member for Topsail is up saying they are putting more money into education. They

are cutting it by $17 million. The Premier and the Minister of Education went

around the Province saying that the money they saved on education reform was

going to go back into the education system, and they cut it by - what is that,

let me see - almost 50 per cent.

I do not know what kind of math that is, Mr. Speaker, but it is certainly not

more. It is not on the positive side. That is the kind of stuff this

Administration is trying to force down people's throats, trying to put a

positive spin on everything. Now the new tactic on that side, and it is led by

the Premier and other members over there, the Minister of Justice and the

Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, trying to paint this side here as being

negative when we are pointing out reality. We are pointing out reality, and they

cannot take it and they get upset with us. That is what we are here for.

Mr. Speaker, did you see the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture yesterday

in the House of Assembly when the Member for Bonavista South gave him a dose of

reality? He was on his feet, and the red... I know what Liberal red is, because

you could see it starting at his collar and going right to the top of his head.

That is the Liberal red - getting upset because he was getting a dose of

reality.

That is education we are talking about here now. Then he talked about taxes

being reduced. This Administration are all the time talking about bringing in a

balanced Budget and no new taxes.

Now, let us look at their Budget document here, Mr. Speaker. Let's look at

this now:

Summary of Gross Capital Account Expenditures,

Summary of Gross

Government Expenditures. We have a little interesting note here. I highlighted

it, if I can find it. The

Summary of Current Account Expenditures, where the

money comes from, now listen to this. No new taxes, he said, but last year -

they have a list of where the money comes from: Personal Income Tax, Sales Tax,

Gasoline Tax. Here, in the Revised 1997-1998, they took in $420 million in other

provincial sources. This year they are planning on taking in $466,672,000. That

is an increase of $46 million in sources other than taxes. Where is this money

coming from?

I am after saying in this House of Assembly on a number of occasions, what

they do and what they have done for the past three years - I will go back not to

last year but the year before - there was one full page of licence fees and

permit increases, doubling, tripling and quadrupling, fees for things they never

charged for before.

In last year's Budget I think there was something like three pages of licence

fees and permit increases. No taxes, Mr. Speaker, but they are still taking it

out of the pockets of the ordinary citizen in the Province who cannot afford it.

In this year's Budget I think there was something like six pages of licences,

fees and permit increases. No wonder they can talk about balancing the Budget.

Even that is not true. That is not a true document because they say they are $10

million in deficit.

They are going to balance the Budget next year, but if it was all to be

known, because of the cuts and the increases in the fees and permits and what

have you, they could have easily balanced the Budget last year. How they could

have balanced the Budget last year - because there is a $30 million slush fund

they have here. If that was properly implemented in the Budget, in actual fact

they could have a $20 million surplus this year. Last year they could have had a

$10 million, and the year before they could have balanced the Budget. They are

telling the people of this Province that we are in hard shape, no money.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, did you ever see the like of that in your

life? We have a Minister of the Crown sitting in the Premier's seat, by the way,

mouthing off to me, saying, `relevance', and I have the Budget Highlights in my

hand. We are talking about the Budget and he does not know the difference. That

will tell you what input that minister had into the Budget.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: There are pictures. Look, there are the pictures, the pie

chart. That is where I get my notes, I say to the minister of whatever, the

Minister of Mines and Energy. It does not make any difference.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I will tell you one thing. Since I came in here this

afternoon and tonight, there is that front bench (inaudible) that reminds me of

the old couple in the Muppets. All they are talking about is polls, polls,

polls. That leads me to believe that they are very nervous on that side of the

House. As Shakespeare says: Methinks thou doth protest too much.

They protest too much. They are frightened to death over there. I will tell

you something else -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: This Administration over there - what is in the media and

what they are trying to put out there is very positive for this group over here.

What is on the street and what is in the small communities of this Province are

two different things. The one I predict in the biggest trouble in this Province

is the Minister of Mines and Energy, in his own district. He is frightened to

death to go back to his district. He will not go out there. They are looking for

him, signs up all over the place: Where is Chuck? Where is Chuck? That is what

is up there. He is frightened to death to go back up there. That is why he

travels all over the world, so he does not have to go back to his own district.

AN HON. MEMBER: He should not be travelling so much.

MR. J. BYRNE: He should not be travelling so much.

Mr. Speaker, I have so much to say on this. Here is another pie chart. It is

the

Summary of Budgetary Financing Sources. Here is a very interesting point. I

am after referring to it in this House of Assembly on a number of occasions. The

Revenue Sources Provincial last year was $1,789,000,000. This year it is

$1,951,000,000, an increase of $200 million. Where are they getting it from? Out

of the pockets, again, of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, taxing them

to death, hidden taxes everywhere.

Here is the point I want to make. This is a very good point, and it is the

Revenue Sources: Federal.

AN HON. MEMBER: Relevance!

MR. J. BYRNE: Here is the relevancy, it will hit you right between the

eyes in two seconds. Last year, Mr. Speaker, $1,584,899,000, that is what the

federal government put here last year. This year it's $1,476,752,000. That is a

difference of $100 million, and we don't hear a squeak, not a peep, nothing from

that side of the House, from the Premier, going after Ottawa and saying: Listen

here, we are tired of the cuts. Be fair with the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

You are the same party. They are your cousins in Ottawa. All we get on that

side of the House is whatever they want to send down from Ottawa, no matter how

bad: Yes, Prime Minister. There used to be a show on television called Yes,

Minister! Over there all the ministers are yes-ministers to the Prime

Minister of the country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: They should take this very seriously, because really the

government is elected to represent the best interests of the people of the

Province, not the best interests of the party or the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker,

the government themselves. They aren't speaking up. There have been all kinds of

cuts coming down from Ottawa over the past few years and the Administration

haven't taken them on.

I will tell you one former premier who didn't mind taking on the prime

minister of the country, former Premier Peckford. He didn't mind going after the

prime minister of the country, even if it was the same party. He went after him

and fought for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. They aren't doing it

here, and it's not right. It's not right and it's not fair to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Anyway, I'm going to sit down for a few minutes and let my throat rest.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, now they want to give me leave, but see, here

is the plan. When the Minister of Justice was up not long ago giving one of his

performances and he went on and on, I finally had to stand and withdraw leave to

do a favour for that individual. I'm smarter than that. I will save my throat

for a little bit now and let someone else get up, say a few words, so I get can

back up again. Instead of spending another half an hour I will be able to get up

for probably two hours later on, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm going to lower this a few

decibel points and talk about a couple of things. My ears are still ringing so

I'm going to lower it a little bit and have a serious discussion on a topic I

want to talk about tonight.

As a matter of fact, I made a couple of notes today of something I wanted to

talk on tonight, and that is on education, and overall about the education

reform, and specifically then talk about something constructive. As the Minister

of Justice said the other night, there are some points we can bring up in debate

in this House that you take seriously. I wanted to discuss tonight the education

reform process and what has been happening, an update on it. Then also hit on

something now I think we should talk about more in this House: the teaching

profession and what is happening with the profession as reforms are taking place

with our education system in the Province.

When we started this whole debate a couple of years ago I know this caucus,

the same as across the way, had many discussions about education reform and what

we would finally end up doing. We went through two referendums and so on. There

was a lot of heated debate, a lot of emotions within caucuses, I know, on both

sides of the House, and a stressful debate. You had it at home, you had it with

your friends. My wife is a teacher, and we sit down and talk about it many

times. You talk to your colleagues, being a former teacher myself. Many times

you discuss this issue, and it's been tough over the last couple of years.

We are moving in a direction. The ultimate goal of the education reform

process is that at the end of the day we can say that the system we have now is

better. That is the whole reason for the reform. Like one teacher said to me:

When you get married, you do it for better or for worse. The education reform

was for the better. Simply put, it was just simply to have a better system of

education in place for our children.

We talked about the problems we have addressed for many years about school

buses passing one school to get to another half-empty and so on. We discussed

all of those issues, but at the end of the day, next month and next year and so

on, we should all be able to turn to the kindergarten, grade X or grade XII

student and say to him: You are now in a better system because we have reformed

the educational system. That is the goal.

Right now we are in a little grey area with all of that. We aren't sure if it

is or not. There is a lot of people who question it. We hope that the scepticism

and the concerns that people are raising now are all going to settle themselves

down and we are going to finally move into a better system of education. As of

right now we are into a transition period, I guess. It will take a lot of time

for a system like that, which was here a long time in this Province,

denominational education, to settle down. The point I want to make tonight, and

I said I would talk about this, is about teachers and the teaching profession,

as we have gone through these transitions and we have seen this profession.

I have been in the staff rooms and have been a part of staffs where you go in

and if you have new people coming into the system, the same as in the

Legislature here, if there are new faces around they show enthusiasm. A lot of

us when we sit here for too long a time, or in the staff room, we sort of sit

back and take it all in, but it is the new blood that comes in -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I will get to that point. It's the new blood that comes into

any group, whether it be teachers, legislators or whatever, they really brings

that bit of freshness to it, new debate, some new thoughts and so on, and we

move on with it.

Mr. Speaker, what I want to talk about tonight is the teaching profession and

the whole curriculum and how important it is to education. What I want to plug

are things like physical education, drama, music, art, culture, all those

things. Those things that, at the end of day, next month or next year, whenever

it is, like I said in the beginning, if we still have those things in our system

for every Newfoundland and Labrador student in school, well then, we have a good

system.

The last thing I want to see, and I have seen some trends towards it already,

and I hope some former teachers here agree with me, from being a former phys.

ed. teacher - the Minister of Mines and Energy asked me what I was. I was a

physical education teacher. I also taught math, French and some other different

things, but mainly I was a phys. ed major and I was very involved with sports

teams in school.

Now I just used that as one example, but I know the drama teacher in my

school, for example, was so into that, and the students. The point I am getting

at is the phys. ed, the drama, the extra things in school are what give you that

complete education, because there is nothing more important when you involve

students in extra curricular activities. I mean, if we are all here to kid

ourselves, we all know, especially any former teachers, students don't jump up

to go to school 9:00 in the morning because they are waiting for a math class or

waiting for a science lab or anything else. They are coming in to school with

different interests.

I readily admit, and I am sure many members will admit, when you were getting

ready to go to school in the morning when you were in grade IX and X you were

excited because you had a basketball practice that day, or because your class

was going on a field trip, or because you had drama practise. Maybe you had a

concert that night. All of those things are what interest kids.

If you want to be realistic as a parent and not forget too quickly as we grow

older, a lot of young people come to school for the simple reason of the extra

curricular activities. That is what it is all about. They know they have to go

to do the math, science, geography and all of those things, but a lot of that

doesn't matter to them. What they really believe is that they have to have a

full, well-rounded education, to keep them interested for one thing.

Number one, they do it to keep interested in school. Otherwise you would see

a lot of dropouts in this Province. You would see an increased dropout in school

rates if you don't have those things. A lot of teachers these days are starting

to get worried that if they see phys. ed dropped off, and music, drama and those

things, you will see an increased dropout in this Province. I don't think that

is a projection that is very far off, because I've taught the kids. I know what

it is like for them when they come into a basketball practice or a hockey

practice after school and they know they have to go on a school trip. That is

what they are interested in.

What we have to remember is that when we go through the education reform

process which we are doing now - and schools closed down, and a number of

students are less, therefore less teachers -, we don't look right away and start

cutting the list: phys ed. sports, extra curricular activities and those types

of things. Because if we start to drop those we are going to see an increase in

dropouts in this Province, and we are going to see it spiral downwards from

there on in. That is what we should keep in mind, that a full education is that

very thing, the whole rounded sports, culture, art, music and so on.

To the teachers in the Province - I did this before in this Province - I

salute them for the extra things they do. Besides with the whole transition and

all the reform that is taking place, schools coming together and so on, look at

what the teaching profession has done. It has kept them together through all

this strange time. If there is either profession in this Province that went

through a tough time it is the teaching profession.

When we were talking about everything else that was going when all this

reform was going on, I talked to teachers who were in a classroom one day and

they didn't know if they would be there the next, or where they would be, moving

to different towns, getting bumped all over the place because of the geography

of a certain area. They didn't know if they would be teaching forty miles away

the next day. You take that situation and having to go into a classroom with

thirty or forty students, and you have to have your spirits up. Because I can

tell you as a former teacher that if you go into a classroom and you aren't

interested in what you are doing the students know, they are the first ones to

know. If you don't show interest in what you are doing they will tell you, they

will know you are bored and you aren't into what you are doing.

The teaching profession went through all of this. At the same time they had

to walk into a classroom and still try to put the best face forward and say they

are interested and that they were going to continue to coach after school, they

were going to continue to take kids on trips and everything. Because I know, I

did it. I can tell you that a lot of students, especially in my area where I

taught - one year I coached a basketball team there and took twelve students to

Oshawa, Ontario for a trip. I'm going to tell you, out of those twelve kids -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) lost every game.

MR. SHELLEY: We lost every game, you are absolutely right, we did though,

but that didn't matter because the games we played didn't matter. The twelve

kids I had there, Mr. Speaker, eight of them were never out of the Province in

their lives, never on an airplane. Within twenty-four hours they went to Deer

Lake, got on a plane - the first time ever on a plane in their lives -, they

were in Toronto and Oshawa, all those areas, brought them around the city, and

they were billeted with different people. Those type of things are what

education is all about. I can tell you that a good number - I won't say all of

them - of those particular students probably would not have stayed in school

except for sports programs. You might think that is a sad thing to say unless

you face reality. If you think your kid is jumping up 9:00 every morning running

to school saying: I can't wait to get to math class, you are kidding yourself.

The students go to school for extra curricular activities.

My whole point in bringing this up tonight is because as the Minister of

Education makes decisions about cuts to education he better be very careful when

they look at that big list and say: The first thing we will cut are your phys.

ed. programs and sports, we will cut out your Music. All of those things they

enjoy, all the drama. You can name a lot more things. I know a lot of students

who live and die for those Science Fairs that they go on and they get really

involved in it. Now, of course, with the computer age and so on they are

interested in computers, the technologies, and the CD-ROM the minister announced

today. A lot of students are really entrenched in this age of computers. They

would love to get into it all. They like to go to conferences and so on to learn

more about computers that are changing every day.

Those are the things that are going to interest students in school these

days. God forbid if we ever get to a stage in this so-called education reform -

but it's not reform, it's really a cutback. That is what it's going to be. We

are going to lose the faith of students who are going to school. That is why we

have to say to the teaching profession that went through all this transition,

whose morale was shot because they did not know where they were going to be the

next day, they went through all that transition and stayed there and stayed

interested. Even though all these things were happening to teachers they still

held on to the programs that they have had for years. That is what I want to say

about the teaching profession tonight.

Sometimes the government is unfair in the way they treat people. I was

talking to Mr. Eagan, who is out in the lobby day after day, and the situation

he went through. The decision was made and he was dismissed from his job. The

arbitration board, three people, decided he should be brought back to his job.

Now the government is appealing. If the gentleman hadn't won the arbitration I

wonder would he be appealing it? Here is the government wasting time and money.

Instead they should have acted upon the arbitration and that man should be back

to work. He is out there every day. He was up in the gallery yesterday with his

wife and child. He is going through a very difficult time now. I think Social

Worker II was his title, in the Marystown area. You stop and talk to him every

now and then and you wonder why the government is so hell bent on doing

something like that when they should be doing so much more, paying attention to

more issues that are about this Province.

It is easy to talk about CD-ROMS and the good news things that come out

today. I'm going to have a look at this CD-ROM, I know how to use it, I'm going

to have a look at it today. There is nothing wrong with being positive with

students.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That is plenty, I say to the minister, we are way ahead

then. I only have one bit of advice if you are so secure about it. Call it!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Go ahead, I'm having fun too.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) you won't be back.

MR. SHELLEY: You better send out a better grade than you sent out the

last time, I say to you. You better send out a better one than your buddy from

the last time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, and we each owe each other thank-yous for that one, Mr.

Speaker, so I say. I'm still expecting a thank-you letter from the Premier any

day at all now.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, we all know about those polls too. They went up

and down. I've seen them for years, the snapshot. The Premier knew all about

when the poll was going on, I say to the hon. House Leader. Do you know what the

Premier did? He's so good at it, right? The Premier knew when the poll was going

on. Sure, he knows before it comes out, he knows everything about it. I'm just

wondering about where the poll is coming from. They all know about it. How much

the poll is being paid for by - the polling that went into account.

Do you know what he did? He wouldn't know but we didn't know the difference,

right? The poll was about to be done, he knew when the phone calls were going to

be made, so for two weeks he came on with this entourage of Mr. Lee was coming

into the Province, the Hibernia oil was flowing, and everything was going on.

The Province was in good shape.

Let me remind the experienced hon. members across the way - and there is

nobody who knows better than -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: No, it wasn't. Mr. Speaker, I know all about the polls,

playing games with the polls. I have no worries about the games with the polls,

it doesn't bother me one little bit. I'm not nearly as experienced as the hon.

House Leader, I say to him with all due respect, and he has been around for a

few times when he saw those polls up and down. I will tell you a little story

about polls.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) got to tell you something.

MR. SHELLEY: Never mind, you had your say. If you want to get up and say

it, (inaudible) you say it. I'm going to tell you a story. I was in Ontario the

summer that David Peterson called the election. Seriously. We were up there with

my sister-in-law for two weeks, the year Bob Rae (inaudible). David Peterson,

the great Liberal Party of Ontario. I was there that summer. I just got there -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I got there two and a half weeks. I'm just telling you, now,

if you want to hear a story on polls, Mr. Speaker. The party was at 67 per cent

in the polls when the election was called. That was 1990. I was there.

MR. SULLIVAN: It was 57 per cent.

MR. SHELLEY: Fifty-seven per cent, yes, Mr. Speaker, he was. I don't know

what the numbers were. Whatever it was, the point was when I went there that

summer Bob Rae, the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: What was Bob Rae, I think he was 9 per cent or 8 per cent.

Bob Rae at the time, I don't remember what the numbers were, I can't remember

the exact fig