Manitoba Hansard — 15 May 2001 (Sitting 30, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-30

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Th irty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 30- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 15, 2001 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

17 23 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 15, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Michael Teriaco, Rose Cipriano, Shelley Wilson and others, praying that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of R. Haas, C. Polanski, Deb Brown and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Anne Juskow, Valerie Strong, Jeannine Robert and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Terry Hartling, Wayne Sperry, W. Henselw ood and others, praying that the Prem ier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cle rk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV li ne directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proximity of power lines.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the additional 230 kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. * (13:35) Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

1724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15,2001 Mr. Speaker: Cl erk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollu te the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 mill ion in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cl erk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollu te the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kena ston and Wilkes. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, in anticipation of the evolving future, may I make my report for the Committee of Supply. The Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Red River Colle ge of Applied Arts, Science and Technology 1999-2000 Annual Report. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I am plea sed to table the Supplemen tary Information for Legisla tive Review 2001-2002, Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Tourism, also Manitoba Community Support programs, as well as Manitoba Sport. * (13:40) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BilllO--Tbe Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that leave be given to introduce Bill 10, The Safer

May 15,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1725 Communities and Neighbourhoods and Conse quential Amendments Act (Loi visant a accroitre Ia securite des coll ectivites et des quartiers et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Administrator, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Administrator's message. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this bill replaces The Community Protection Act.

It establis hes a swifter, less compli cated, safer and less costly scheme to help people who believe that property in their neighbourhood or community is being continuously or habitually used for such things as prostitution, the unlic enced sale of alcohol, the sale or use of ille gal drugs, and the il legal sale or use of other intoxicating substances. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Pam Smith, visiting from the Isle of Wight, England, accompanied by Cathy Shipley of Winnipeg. They are the guests of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Arena/Entertainment Complex Business Plan Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday there was an exciting announcement by the True North group talking about the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. An Honourable Member: The great free enterprise party over there. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, from what we understand, the private sector is a driving force to help revitalize downtown- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can tell you we are always delig hted on this side of the House when that side of the House recognizes the importance of the private sector.

With the announcement that the private sector was driving the True North project and understanding that the taxpayers of Manitoba are making a contribution towards True North, I wondered if I could ask the Premier if the Premier has looked at and studied the True North business plan. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am delig hted that the Leader of the Opposition is supporting the proposal today. I think that that is an excell ent suggestion. The members opposite have claimed that the Crocus Fund was going to be guaranteed by up to $50 mill ion by the Government of Manitoba. That was wrong.

The member from Fort Whyte claimed that the Crocus Investment Fund was illegal. That was wrong. We are pleased, as the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, that the business plan and the plan of the public sector-and we are still working on all the legal documents-the framework agreement has been released publicly. There is still a considerable amount of work on the legal documents, including, as the members opposite will know, on community access. We think the Leader of the Opposition is now on board. We think it is good for downtown Winnipeg, and that is good for the province of Manitoba. * (13:45)

17 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 200 1 Business Plan-Tabling Request Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I think at this point Manitobans are quite sure because they think, unlike in '95, that the new Premier is in fact in support of this arena, unlike the way he was against the last one. My question then to the Premier is: When he has access to look at the business plan, would he table that for the House? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, in 19 95 the members opposite will be aware that, prior to April 26, 19 95, the public was told that there would be a $30-milli on investment when in fact we found out on January 10 , 19 95, there was an $85- million request for public money. Subsequent to that, it was over $10 0 million of public money plus issues of the operating loss agreement. This is a completely different time and a completely different agreement.

It is a completely different agreement, and I think it is important for us to tum the page from 19 95, because I think if they tum the page and get beyond the 19 95 proposal they could actually take a stand. Instead of being nowhere on this issue, they could actually take a stand for revitalizing downtown Winnipeg and being positive. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Doer: Well, maybe members opposite need an opposition plan. They come into the House last week and say that the Crocus Fund investment was illegal. When are we going to get an apology from the Leader of the Opposition on that point?

Provincial Contribution Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I am somewhat concerned as to why the rantings and the ravings of the Premier. I am just simply asking a question. I would just ask the Premier quite simply and he does not have to shout; I am just across the way here. But my question simply to the Premier is: Could the Premier verify that the total provincial financial contribution-and I hope they listen because this is important, and we do not want Manitobans misinterpreting what his response is.

I am just simply asking: Can we verify that the total provincial financial contri bution is made up of $10 million of infrastructure money, $3 million of tax relief and a cap of $1. 5 million annually in VL T revenues for 25 years? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): One of the most important parts of this agreement is the whole issue of public risk for either cost overruns on the capital side or operating overruns on the facility. Some of the issues of the 50 VLTs are well known in the public. Yesterday there was some release of information on the property tax issue.

It is dissimilar to the MEC proposal in '95 where it was proposed that no property taxes be paid. So that point was missing from the member's question, and the other facts have been out in the public. All the public issues, when all in contract form should be released and made public. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Highways Capital Program Approval Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): On a new question, Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans recognize that while we have and are blessed with a very short summer season, it is simply without compare, and we are very proud of that. Unfortunately, with the short summer comes a very short construction season, something I think that the Doer government fails to recognize. The headline of a Manitoba heavy construction industry news release sums it up, as well as I believe the clipping from the Brandon Sun: Manitoba construction industry facing work shortage.

I think our question simply is to the Premier when I make a ref erence as well, if I could, to Manitoba's Heavynews, and I quote a Mr. Jack Wiebe. He says: I have a small company, 30 or 40 employees. Right now, I only have three or four. It is very difficult to plan. The season is short anyway. June is usually rainy, so July and August are the only good months. If we are not organized by June we are

May 15 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 17 27 in a very difficult situation. So my question to the Premier is: Why is the Premier delaying the approval of the Highways capital program? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I would refer the Leader of the Opposition to the Highways budget. Mr. Murray: I hope that the Premier understands the difference between the budget and the tendering process. Mr. Speaker, with tendering not getting underway until June or July, much needed work on Manitoba's high ways may not occur until late July or early August.

In the meantime, 75 percent of the construction workforce is remaining idle and in some cases, according to Zenith Paving, and I quote: Half the workforce has already gone to Alberta. Mr. Speaker, why is the Premier, through his inaction, endangering the employment of an industry that employs, Mr. Speaker, in excess of 10 000 Manitobans directly or indirectly? * (13: 50) Mr.

Doer: When I was in Brandon last week at the Chamber of Commerce luncheon there were announcements that tenders were already out on a number of key intersections: Braecrest Drive, with its intersection on Highway 1 0; another number of intersections that were crucial for Highway 10 that require work, $10 million. I understand there have been some tenders let already. I understand another set of tenders is going to be let tomorrow. Mr. Speaker, the articles that the member is quoting mentioned that the private sector capital investment is on level with previous years.

There has been a greater due diligence on a number of issues in the public sector on capital. One of the changes we made, that the Leader of the Opposition should be aware, the Provincial Auditor did not certify the books in '98 and '99. One of the reasons for that was interfund transfers of money. The second reason for that was not proper accounting of capital decisions that were made in the Estimates, made in the Budget and not accounted in the deficit in terms of a pay-back plan. So we want to make sure. We recognize the industry is very, very important.

Here we are in the first question getting criticized about proceeding with the enter tainment complex in downtown Winnipeg, which will create close to 16 00 jobs and indirect jobs in construction. We have Red River community college proceeding. We want to proceed on the floodway, on highways, on carefully constructed health care investments. We have a higher than normal improvement and renovation in education. I think it is a good, balanced approach to our construction needs in Manitoba. I will answer more with his third question. Mr.

Murray: There are delays in the highway capital program, the infrastructure program and the community ring dike program, Mr. Speaker. While the Premier is busy trying to build a legacy, he is ignoring the day-to-day workforce that exists in Manitoba. He is making life difficult for the construction industry in terms of making equipment and the personnel decisions. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier commit today to immediately addressing the situation before the entire construction industry and the entire construction season is written off and employees and companies have gone elsewhere to look for work? Mr.

Doer: In the

article the Leader of the Opposition quotes, it quotes that the private sector investment is at comparable levels to previous years. Mr. Speaker, we have made a number of announcements on capital spending in the province of Manitoba. Some of those have been announced and have been tendered. Other announcements, and I mentioned Highways, as I understand it has had a number of tenders already issued. I mentioned Brandon. I mentioned also in the second question posed by the Leader of the Opposition that other tenders will be let in Highways tomorrow. Flood protection is proceeding. I was in Rosenort.

It is 80 percent completed, 90 percent completed. Ring dikes in Emerson are being tendered. The completion of a ring dike in Emerson is in the Budget, Mr. Speaker. We have other work we are doing in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I should point out also that we are restoring some of the money that was cut by members opposite in the drainage budgets, and we are going to have money in the

17 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 200 1 Intergovernmental Affairs budget, the Conserv ation budget and the Highways budget to reverse the terrible decisions of the past on drainage. Lastly, for example, at the University of Manitoba alone, a huge deficit of infrastructure, we have announced a $1 00-million program: $50 million from the private sector, $50 million from the public sector. Again, we do not believe that it is the right message for the future to have a roof that leaks at the Engineering Faculty. We are going to change that. Flood Prone Areas Property Buyouts Mrs.

Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago I asked questions about the status of the buyout for the 28 property owners of Greenview and St. Mary's roads, south of the floodway. The Minister of Conservation erroneously stated, and I quote: We are over 50 percent completed on the work. Could the Minister of Conservation please update this House today as to the actual status of the buyout and when these property owners might reasonably expect to have this matter settled? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr.

Speaker, I stand by the response that I gave to the member a couple of weeks ago. *(13 :55) Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question: Could the Minister of Conservation confirm today that nothing has changed and that only four of the twenty-eight property owners have had their buyouts finalized? Mr. Lathlin: No, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Dacquay: Could the Minister of Conservation please explain to this House and these property owners why it is taking so long to resolve this matter? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Speaker, I can indicate to the member that ever since we have been in government we have worked with these people. I know when we got into government, as I explained to the member once already, we developed a grid to try to determine which projects had been completed, which projects were yet to be completed and we gave a status report for each project. As soon as we were finished with that report, we started sharing that information with the communities and individuals affected, and that is how we have worked ever since we have taken over the file.

We have tried our very best to make sure that the work was moving along, and I think we have made some real progress. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Seine River, on a new question. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, on a new question, I am absolutely appalled at the answers the minister has given and I am certain the homeowners will be as well. Could the Minister of Conservation please tell this House and the 28 property owners when he last met with these residents? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, I believe the member is referring to those individuals residing on St.

Mary's Road, Greenview Road and the Houghton Road, with respect to the voluntary buyouts. Mr. Speaker, there were 22 residential properties at one time, 24 agricultural properties and 14 vacant lots were on St. Mary's Road, as well as on Greenview Road and the Houghton Road. It was originally agreed that the buyout would occur for those 22 residential properties at a cost of some $5.5 million, and then it was later agreed- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Premier (Mr. Doer).

Given that he has indicated he wants to buy out these residents to accommodate the widening of the floodway, why has he not resolved this issue so that we can get on with resolving the floodway issue? Mr. Lathlin: With respect to the purchase of the agricultural land under the voluntary buyout, additional resources were identified, which

May 15 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 29 brought the budget up to $6.6 million, to also buy the vacant agricultural lots that were pointed out to us by the residents. The way it stands now, 12 of the 22 residential owners have accepted a buyout offer, and six homes are presently being vacated. The remaining homes will be vacated as per the purchase agreement that was made. Lake Manitoba Water Levels Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): The volume of water that has been diverted from the Assiniboine River into Lake Manitoba is now reaching significant levels and causing concern.

There are ranchers on both sides of the lake who are losing land which will probably be lost permanently for the year. What efforts has the department taken to avoid this damage? My question is to the Minister of Conservation. Are the dikes on the Assiniboine River capable of carrying more water, or can he give an anticipated peak level of that lake to my constituents? * (1 4:00) Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): As I indicated to the member, I believe it was last week I did a tour of the W estbourne area.

On my return back to Winnipeg we stopped at Portage Ia Prairie, and I had an opportunity to look at the drainage ditch that he is referring to. He is absolutely right. I told him when I returned that there was water all over the place. We met with the civic leaders from the R.M. of Westbourne, and they understand that this issue is not a new one. It has been there for several years. Different governments have been asked to deal with it, and so I made a commitment to the people of Westbourne that we would start to look at the issue again with the view of eventually coming to a resolution to the- Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Conservation alludes to the Whitemud drainage basin and the problems of the Westbourne municipality around Big Grass Marsh. I am asking about the Assiniboine River diversion that has pumped water into Lake Manitoba, probably raising the level of that lake somewhere close to five inches. On that flat land, that amounts to a mile or more, in some cases two or three miles back inland. Farmers are losing their livelihood in many cases. I am asking- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you please remind the member that a supplementary question should need no

preamble. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on the same point of order? Mr. Cummings: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am not unaware of the rules of the House, but I was trying to point out that it was the Assiniboine Diversion not the Big Grass Marsh that is my problem. May I ask [interjection] I know what a business plan looks like at least. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. * * * Mr. Cummings: My supplementary question is to the Minister of Government Services and Minister responsible for Emergency Measures. Would he be prepared to recognize these losses as a man-made loss, the same as occurred in 19 97? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I question whether indeed this was done in the past. Our position in terms of damage this spring is unchanged from when the member was in government as well, and that is we have the federal-provincial Disaster Financial Assistance

17 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 200 1 program. There are certain losses that are eligible. In fact, I have taken the opportunity to visit a lot of the damaged areas of the province with spring flooding this year, and we will be preparing a program based on the information in terms of the losses. Once again, the member does know the criteria that are out there and people will be eligible under the DFAA program. If it meets the criteria, they will be eligible. Mr. Cummings: My supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Government Services.

I was referring to the additional water that has been added to Lake Manitoba which is a man-driven situation. I am asking him if he is prepared to argue on behalf of my constituents, the same as we did in '97. Mr. Ashton: I am somewhat puzzled by the question. There are still some legal issues outstanding from 19 97, and I would certainly indicate, and I think the Premier (Mr. Doer) indicated earlier, probably the greatest area that has been created, not by nature but by, if you want to call it man-made, has been the way we have let our drainage system decline.

I am very proud that our Government this year in its Budget has started to re-invest in our drainage, because that is the biggest problem in rural Manitoba right now in terms of man-made situations: lack of proper drainage. Knapp Dam and Pump Station Status Report Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Conservation. In December I raised concerns about the Knapp Dam and Pump Station.

In reply, the Minister of Conservation indicated at that time that "there was a problem encountered in the project, a very minor problem, a problem that can be easily fixed." Yesterday in Estimates the minister admitted it was a major problem, that water was leaking under the pump station and that it cost about $225, 000 to fix. I would ask the Minister of Conservation in the Legislature today to acknowledge that the size of the problem was indeed much greater than initially anticipated, that it was quite a large problem. Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): can indicate to the member that the Knapp Dam pump will be fully operational this spring and that the design problems that were experienced by the crew working on the project will be totally rectified, corrected, and we anticipate having commissioning of the system probably by mid June. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary: Will the minister indicate, in light of his comments last December, that if there were major problems he would seek on the part of the contractor that there would be reimbursement or some action taken on his part to recover costs?

Will the minister indicate what action he is taking and whether those costs can be recovered? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his wise counsel. That is precisely what we are doing. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary, in view of the fact that I also raised concerns about the certificates of competence of some of the contractors or a contractor, I would ask the Minister of Conservation what he is doing to make sure that appropriate standards are set in the future that contractors will have the required or the real certificate of competence that is needed? Mr. Lathlin: Again, Mr.

Speaker, the member is generous today with his advice, so again I will take that advice gratefully and look at it. Education Facilities Capital Program Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): While visiting St. James-Assiniboia recently with the Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski) and the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), I recently announced the 200 1 -2002 capital funding agreement for the public school system. Could the Minister of Education please apprise the House of the levels of support for capital infrastructure and the priority items for this Government?

May 15,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1731 Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, it was a pleasure for me to be in St. James-Assiniboia School Division recently to make the capital announcement for the 2001-2002 school year. In the last 18 months, this Government has invested over a hundred million dollars in our public school infrastructure. The bulk of that investment is in infrastructure, in roofing, mechanical systems, windows systems, and so forth. There is a tremendous capital- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the honourable minister feels like making a ministerial statement, I think he has that opportunity before Question Period, and that would give us an opportunity to speak to the positive initiatives that this Government might bring in, which is not very often. * (14:10) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I did not hear a rule or citation from Beauchesne's cited. There is no point of order. It is an important question, and I regret that the Opposition did not see fit to ask that question, but we did. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to conclude his comments. Mr. Caldwell: This is a hundred-million-dollar investment of public funds. It is a very important question and it is a very important issue for the people of Manitoba to be aware of. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand why members opposite are a bit sensitive to this, because they left a legacy of a quarter of a billion dollars of infrastructure renewal that needed to be attended to. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

How can this minister stand in this House when one of his own members asked the question and provoked debate on this side of the House and expect us to sit there? Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to take it under advisement and take a serious look at what this minister is doing. He is making a ministerial statement, and he is taking advantage of this House's time. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I can understand why the Opposition would feel provoked or embarrassed. It is because they did not ask that important question on behalf of Manitoba children. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. For clarification of all members of the House, the rules are very clear that all members in this Chamber except ministers of the Crown- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. For clarification, it is very clear that all members in this House, except ministers, have the right and the opportunity to ask a question.

1732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, to conclude his comments. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The $100 million that has been invested by the Doer government in the last 18 months to rectify structural problems, mechanical problems, electrical problems, roofing problems around the public school system in the province of Manitoba represents 237 projects in this province. Big Grass Marsh Overland Flooding Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. I am at this time, asking about the Big Grass Marsh.

Two of his ministers have indeed visited the Big Grass Westbourne area, and that is appreciated. One of the biggest problems we have is making sure that the rest of the community of Manitoba knows how significant the problems can be with overland flooding. I wonder if he would be prepared to take a look personally at the situation at Westbourne. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have been in touch with the rural municipality. I believe next week I am scheduled to visit the community and listen to their concerns, as the member has pointed out.

I will let him know the time and date so he can be there at the meeting. I know that the two ministers have been there. We were in Franklin last week. I think it is very important to be there, and I will be there next week. Devils Lake Diversion Status Report Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): As we all know and have heard in the media, the Devils Lake situation is not declining, and flooding is very prevalent in the Devils Lake area.

We also know that the Army Corps of Engineers has initiated a series of meetings across the Red River Valley informing Red River Valley residents and communities as to what the process will be to establish an outlet at Devils Lake into the Sheyenne River.

Can the Premier apprise this House as to what kinds of communications he has had with the State of North Dakota and the U.S. government, recognizing the fact that he has signed an agreement with the State of Missouri and indeed has come to an agreement with the State of Minnesota to ensure Manitobans that nothing will happen on the Devils Lake outlet until there is concurrence with Manitoba? Can the Premier assure this House that all steps are being taken to ensure that the regulatory process will be in place before any construction takes place on Devils Lake? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): As the member knows, in July of 1999 the North Dakota state government under former Governor Schafer and now carrying on under the present governor has unilaterally declared that it will build an outlet from Devils Lake into the Sheyenne River which ultimately will go to the Hudson Bay watershed. We became apprised of this on the day we were elected and sworn in that the unilateral declaration had been made, and since then we have attempted all efforts to indicate one major issue here, that it is not North Dakota's right nor Manitoba's right to be involved in trans boundary water issues.

It is our job to raise the issues in the most legal way possible with other states like Minnesota and Missouri, but the treaties are held by Canada and the United States. North Dakota, in our view, cannot proceed legally with an outlet that is unilateral without the full regulatory approval of the United States and without the full involvement of Canada under the International Joint Commission treaties that have been in place in this country since 1909. So, Mr. Speaker, certainly Manitoba has a memorandum of agreement with Missouri, which we were asked to do by the federal government. We got that.

We have an agreement with Governor Ventura to oppose this project in the state of Minnesota. Minnesota is with us. We actually will be having a briefing this Thursday with all the members that will be meeting with the North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota legislators a week and a day from now, but it is our view that North Dakota should not and cannot unilaterally proceed. We think the federal U.S. government has got to stop a state from

May I5, 200I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA I733 proceeding in a unilateral way, and we have written Prime Minister Chretien to say that. * (14:20) Mr. Jack Penner: I think the Premier is well aware that the Army Corps of Engineers has initiated-let me ask the question of the Premier then. Has the Premier been fully apprised of the initiative that the Army Corps of Engineers has taken as of a couple of weeks ago to do an EIS and to bring to conclusion by October of 2002 the study process and start construction in October of2002? Is the Premier aware of that? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, there are three proposals in the United States dealing with Devils Lake. One is the Stump Lake outlet, the second one is the Peterson Coulee outlet and then the third one is the Twin Lakes proposal. The Twin Lakes proposal has been a unilateral decision made by North Dakota to proceed in a unilateral way that was declared, by the way, in July of I999. That was reaffirmed by Governor Schafer at a meeting we had in Devils Lake in November of I999. At that time, Governor Schafer indicated that construction would proceed and be completed by the fall of October 2000. That date has come and gone.

The Army Corps of Engineers are looking at the Peterson Coulee outlet as opposed to the Twin Lakes outlet. So there are two different proposals that are being studied right now. We are aware that the new FEMA director was in North Dakota last month during the flooding visiting Grand Forks, Fargo and Devils Lake. We are also aware that the lake levels at Devils Lake allowed some very minor water to go to Stump Lake. When we came into office and we were told in '99 that the construction was proceeding within I2 months, we were opposed then, we are opposed now.

Yes, we are concerned about any declaration to proceed against Manitoba's interests. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Order of Manitoba Recipients Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): On May II Lieutenant-Governor Peter Liba announced the names of the eight Manitobans who will receive the Order of Manitoba medal on July 5. While I congratulate all recipients on their accomplishments and recognition, I wish to focus my comments on one of these fine Manitobans. That is our former Premier Gary Filmon.

The Order of Manitoba is described as an honour awarded to those Manitobans "who have demonstrated excellence and achievement in any field of endeavour, benefiting in an outstanding manner the social, cultural or eco nomic well-being of Manitoba and its residents." This honour, the highest in our province, is reserved for those individuals who have given some sustaining benefit to our province and to all Manitobans.

It was with delight but not surprise that I learned our former Premier, a man who led the Progressive Conservative Party for over I6 years and led this province for over a decade, was going to receive this well-deserved honour. Mr. Speaker, this Doer government chooses to remember the former Premier's time in office as a low point in Manitoba's history. They spew the misconception that this great province was led down a dark and misguided path during the I990s. How embarrassed members opposite must be now.

The man they believe did nothing for Manitoba is now receiving the highest honour this province has to offer. This is one more example of how wrong the Doer government is about the path our province should be taking and the strength and leadership Gary Filmon offered Manitobans for almost I2 years. This Government may not want to believe it, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.

1734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): On April 12, 2001, I had the great pleasure of attending a ceremony honouring the recipients of the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal. This presentation was a wonderful occasion for the members of the 17 Wing and its larger units and 'D' Division RCMP receiving the medal to be formally recognized and appreciated by their country for their important contributions to peacekeeping efforts. Making the presentations of the 437 Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medals were: the Honourable Peter M.

Liba, Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba; Brigadier General D. Tabbemor, Deputy Commander Land Forces Western Area; Assistant Commissioner T.W. Egglestone, Commanding Officer 'D' Division of the RCMP; and Colonel D.C. McLennan, Wing Commander 17 Wing Winnipeg. Inspired by the 1988 awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to United Nations Peacekeepers, the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal was created to acknowledge the efforts of Canadian peacekeepers.

This includes all serving and former members of the Canadian Forces, members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other police services, and Canadian civilians who have upheld the 50-year tradition of Canadian peacekeepers. From all members on this side of the House, I would like to congratulate our recipients for their courage and for their accomplishments and contributions to peace. We applaud your commitment to helping people in war-tom countries to have the opportunity to live in a safer place. Your new medal should be worn with pride knowing that you have helped make the world a better place.

I would also like to thank the family members of our peacekeepers, many of whom were in attendance at the ceremony, for their efforts in overcoming the hardships of separation and for their ongoing support. Again, we thank you and we are all proud of your accom plishments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oak Park High School Fundraiser Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): On May 5, the students of Oak Park High School in Charleswood organized a concert at their school in order to make a wish come true for a 12-year old boy with cancer.

The students of this high school were behind Jean-Paul Craft in his fight with Burkitt's lymphoma, a rare type of cancer that affects only about 100 children in North America each year. The students of Oak Park approached the Children's Wish Foundation some time ago about being involved in a fundraising effort to grant a child's wish. When they were informed about Jean-Paul's wish for a very special guitar, they knew this was a perfect fit.

The students worked very hard to raise money, from pizza Fridays, the canteen and a basketball tournament and the school's annual musical production, among other small fund raisers. The culmination of this effort was a concert where two bands performed and Jean Paul played a couple of songs with them. This was his first public opportunity to play his new dream guitar, and he also performed a duet with his sister Amy at the concert. These were very special performances that touched the hearts of everyone at the concert.

Congratulations to all the students at Oak Park for their dedication and hard work in making Jean-Paul's dream come true. The Oak Park student council presidents, Kevin Landreville and Evan Duncan said that this endeavour has made a real difference around the school and has touched everyone in a special way. They said, and I quote: It is not what we are doing for Jean-Paul, it is what Jean-Paul is doing for us. I personally want to recognize the efforts of the students at Oak Park for their caring and their initiative and to say how proud we in Charleswood are of these young people.

I think it is so important to recognize the efforts of youth, the efforts that they make in our communities and the contributions that they make in our communities. The students at Oak Park I really feel are particularly special, and I certainly appreciate the opportunity of recognizing them in the Manitoba Legislature today.

May 15,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1735 * (1 4:30) Royal Bank Cup Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): From May 5 to 13, Flin Flon was gripped by hockey fever as the city hosted the National Junior A Hockey Championship, the Royal Bank Cup. Flin Flon is a community with a long hockey tradition. I can mention the Memorial Cup Championship of 1957 or the names of hockey legends such as Teddy Hampson, Patty Ginnell, Mel Pearson, Bobby Clarke, Reg Leach, Gerry Hart, Reed Simpson, among others. Flin Flon is a small city with a big heart.

It is a city with extraordinary capability to host outstanding events in the field of sport and culture. It is renowned for its northern hospital ity. I would like to congratulate co-chairs, Don McElroy and Ron Watt for their vision and commitment to make this the best Royal Bank Cup tournament ever held. I commend the over 700 volunteers, organizers and committee chairs for making this event a reality. Over 10 percent of the population of Flin Flon were engaged as volunteers. Congratulations to the Royal Bank and many other corporate and individual sponsors.

Congratulations to all of the teams for winning the right to be at the Royal Bank Cup, for their remarkable effort and sportsmanship. Congrat ulations to the Camrose Kodiaks for their win and to the Flin Flon Junior Bombers for their hard-fought second place finish. We are proud of you. Go Bombers go! Canada Day Poster Challenge Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, on Thursday, May 17 at 2 p.m., the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba will be hosting a recep tion to honour Manitoba's four young finalists for the Canada Day poster challenge.

Each year the Department of Canadian Heritage sponsors the Canada Day poster challenge which encourages young Canadians to create posters demonstrating their pride in our great country of Canada. This initiative began in 1987 and has significantly grown in popularity with over 30 000 posters being entered each year.

The theme of this year's challenge is "Celebrating Canada's Diversity." Participants in the contest are urged to submit posters exhibiting the diversity of languages, religions and cultures in Canada and are asked to write a few sentences on how their poster expresses their appreciation of Canada's diversity. Each province and territory designates one finalist. The winner of the national contest will have their poster displayed across Canada and will receive a trip for them and a parent to travel to Ottawa to enjoy this year's Canada Day celebrations on Parliament Hill.

I am very pleased to announce that Manitoba's first-place winner and one of the youngest people being honoured by the Lieutenant-Governor on Thursday afternoon is Joel Furtado, a young man from the great constituency of Southdale. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Joel on this achievement and thank all finalists for their participation in this worthwhile event. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, just an announcement to repeat what we announced the other day. There will be no condolence motion tomorrow.

That will be arranged at another time for the late Senator Molgat. As well, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to waive private members' hour today? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour for today? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, Estimates continue as scheduled in Rooms 255 and 254. Would you canvass the House to determine if there is consent to vary the sequence of Estimates for the Chamber so that the Estimates for the Seniors Directorate will be considered

1736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 first, followed by Civil Service Commission, to be followed by Seniors, to be followed by Culture, Heritage and Tourism? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence of consideration of Estimates by changing the sequence in the Chamber so that Estimates for the Seniors Directorate will be considered first, followed by the Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, to be followed by Culture, Heritage and Tourism which will then be followed by Estimates for the Status of Women? This change is- Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I am sorry. Mr. Speaker, if the House leader could just move the Seniors; Status of Women; then Culture, Heritage? No, just a moment, it is Seniors; Civil Service; Status of Women; then Culture, Heritage. Right? An Honourable Member: Seniors; Civil Service; Status of Women; Culture. Mr. Laurendeau: Correct. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify. That order should be Seniors; Civil Service Commission; Status of Women; Culture, Herit age and Tourism. Mr.

Speaker: The sequence will be Seniors; Civil Service Commission; Status of Women; Culture, Heritage and Tourism. [Agreed] These changes will apply permanently. [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I move, second ed by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (14:40) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order this afternoon. This

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 12.1.(

a) Minister's Salary, on page 42 ofthe Estimates book $28,100-pass. Resolution 12.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,223,600 for Conservation, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2002. Resolution agreed to Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): This completes the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates of the Department of Health. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? We will recess? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 2:45p.m. The committee resumed at 3 p.m. HEALTH * (15:00) Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the honourable Minister of Health have an opening statement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Sure, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I welcome all of the members here for the Estimates process. I

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1737 normally do not make an opening statement. I usually generally like just to get into questions. I have done very small opening statements. It has been my general policy, but today I felt like I might outline some of the initiatives that have happened in health care over the past year and put it into a perspective that I think is important that people deal with. I just want to start by commending all of the people who work in the health care system throughout the system, who dedicate their time and energy to providing quality care and care to all Manitobans.

They extend themselves. It is difficult work. It is extensive work. They extend themselves to provide for the care of other Manitobans. I have encountered examples of individuals who have gone in on days off to work to help, individuals who have volunteered time and energy. I just wanted to commend all of those people in this health care system who together collectively work on behalf of all of us to care for all of us. I wanted to point that out in the first instance. What I also wanted to do, Mr.

Chairperson, is deal with some of the issues and some of the highlights in the health care system over the past year. I have not prepared notes, speaking notes. I did in a few minutes scratch down a few items that I thought I would deal with and relate to. I am going to outline these. First off, I should give a report to the committee that over the last year we culminated in an agreement signed by all of the provinces and the federal government with respect to a partial restoration of the CHST.

From what I understand it is something like a restoration to 1995 dollars, which, while not near what we had hoped for or tried for, nonetheless it was a deal that all of the provinces felt obliged to sign. We had a small

part in the culmination of this, insofar as Manitoba was the chair for both the Health ministers and simultaneously the chair for the First Ministers during the course of these discussions. The final agreement was rounded out following a series of six or seven meetings across the country. While I have said quite frankly that it is not anywhere near what we would like to receive in terms of federal dollars and restoration, nonetheless we signed the agreement together with the other provinces. Roughly, through the agreement, there were three, I could put it in these terms, pockets of money, all within the CHST.

The first was the capital equipment money. I might indicate that Manitoba played a huge

part in getting the federal government to agree to it in the first place. It was one of our prerequisites that we had discussed with the federal government for any agreement, that is, that there would be some kind of equipment renewal. We were very pleased that Manitoba succeeded in having within the agreement the equipment renewal and capitalization fund. The second area was primary care, some funding for primary care. Again, I can indicate that Manitoba, as well, pushed this.

I do not want to reveal negotiations that occurred right to the very end, but we were very aggressive right to the final document was authorized to try to expand the contribution of the federal government to the primary care field. Manitoba tried very hard to up the ratio of funding for primary care, recognizing that it was an area of health care development that we all wanted to move toward. Unfortunately, we did not achieve significant funding in this area.

The amount of money that Manitoba will get over a three-year period is something like, if memory serves me correctly, $5 million for primary care projects in each of the next few years, which is very small in relation to the kind of needs of primary care reform that were identified throughout the year long process that took place. The third area that was allocated and much fanfare was made about a $1 billion IT initiative. There is a $1 billion over a number of years that was allocated towards IT. We do not really have access to these funds.

These funds are part of an overall infrastructure project that is being put in place in collaboration with the provinces through essentially a federal Crown corporation. We have a part to play in it in terms of the overall infrastructure, but it is not the kind of pool of money or resources that would, say, allow Manitoba to have access to X-millions of dollars to do a particular project. It is possible that Manitoba could access some funds to do a demonstration project that could be utilized in the national network over a period of time on a pilot basis.

We are still exploring those possibilities, but overall we do not have access

1738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 to those funds, which is one of the reasons why when the pool of money was put together it appeared to be far more significant than in fact it really is, insofar as $1 billion over several years is not really money that Manitoba can acquire in order to improve directly its infrastructure. Its infrastructure in terms of IT does need substantial upgrading and substantial resourcing, there is no question about that.

Over the last year a lot of time and energy, significant time and energy, was devoted by the department and by Health towards the putting together of this national agreement between the provinces and the federal government. We achieved a limited success with the agreement, and we were happy to have played a small

part in the overall establishment of that national agreement. There is a Jot more to be done on the federal-provincial front. Manitoba has been very aggressive in pushing the federal government and the other provinces for a significant addressing of the issues dealing with pharmaceuticals and prescription drugs, and we recently concluded a teleconference meeting that was instigated by Manitoba with all of the provinces.

What we are trying to do is move along the agenda, because at the federal provincial level the agenda moves, in my experience, quite slowly, and there were study groups and all kinds of developments that were put in place in 19 98 to deal with pharmaceuticals and prescription drugs, but they have been moving along quite slowly. Manitoba stressed to all of the other provinces the need to get these on the agenda, and we succeeded.

It will be on the agenda of the next provincial health ministers' meeting and we will be able to deal with some of the substantive issues related to prescription drugs and pharmaceuticals. To that end, we have also had a fair amount of contact with other jurisdictions about collaborating on the issue of pharmaceuticals and prescription drugs, insofar as in every jurisdiction in the country it is quite clear that pharmaceuticals and prescription drugs are, if not the most significant cost driver, are one of the most significant cost drivers across the health care system.

There is a need to try to find some way of maximizing the ability to provide prescription drugs to our population while at the same time dealing with costs. Members might be aware that two years ago, for the first time in history, the cost of pre scription drugs in this country exceeded the costs of physician coverage, and that has continued to the present. There is no doubt that prescription drugs are now part of a medicare system. Unfortunately, there is no real mechanism in order for the provincial governments to match the costs that are occurring in the prescription drug field.

Consequently, when we come to drug utilization and drug programs and providing drugs, we are not able to do as much as we certainly would like to do. It is a national problem and it is something that we have been very aggressive on. We are working with the other provinces to try to see, on a number of different tracks, the first being to see if there could be any movement on the federal front to assist us, and that has a variation of themes, and secondly to try to see if there is any kind of collaboration we could work with, particularly with western provinces.

I am relating to utilization and application of drugs because I have said publicly and before that Manitoba will be interested in almost any initiative that could see us maximizing the use of drugs and increasing the ability to provide drugs to our population. So that essentially sums up some of the initiatives that have occurred since we last met with respect to the federal and provincial scene, something that took far more time than, I suppose, a lot of us anticipated, but, in the end, we did achieve an agreement, and we were able to move forward.

On the health care front, in order to quantify or qualify what has happened over the past year, one can look at a variety of factors. We think that in a health care system, where there is estimated to be 14 million contacts between the population and the health care system, the work of people in the health care system is outstanding. * (15:10) I note that recently there was a poll done that looked at people's appreciation of the health care system here in Manitoba, and it was dramatically higher than it had been for the year

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1739 or year and a half previous, dramatically higher, almost double, in terms of appreciation of the health care system. That, in no small way, is a measure of the kind of hard work undertaken by individuals who are trying to make things better and improve the system.

I think that people recognize that a number of the major initiatives that were put in place when we were first elected, while, as I have said on many occasions, we cannot overnight change a system, have made some substantive difference in the way the system is approached and in the way that health care has developed. No better example, I think, exists probably in the fact that there are more individuals enrolled in nursing programs now than at any time in the past decade. It has in fact doubled what it was four years ago. That is dramatic, when you think about it, Mr.

Chairperson, in a turnaround in a relatively short period of time. The bad news is that you cannot educate and train a nurse in one year, with the exception of the LPN programs, but, in terms of the RN programs, we are still awaiting some of the results and the fruits of the efforts. We are also very pleased with the work that is undertaken with the diploma program, despite the dire predictions of some individuals about the ability of the Province to launch a diploma nurses program. It was filled. The program was filled.

The students are doing very well, and it is, by all measures, an outstanding success and an addition to the health care system. One needs only to go to rural Manitoba and talk to people in rural Manitoba where time and time again we are advised that the best thing we could do in the health care system would be bring back the diploma nurses program. Tangentially, along with that, as I speak about rural Manitoba, the second-best thing that often rural Manitobans tell us is that we should train more doctors.

This year we are very pleased that the first time after the cuts in the early '90s to the medical program, we are expanding the college, the admission to the medical program, at the University of Manitoba. Outstanding response, people are very appreci ative of the fact. They recognize that, in the years of the '90s, there was an attrition factor related to physicians. They are very pleased that we are going to educate and train more doctors. Related to that, Mr.

Chairperson, is the fact that we are also opening up 15 residency posi tions, and these residency positions, I believe, 9 are going to be devoted to family practice in rural Manitoba, again, to provide resources and services to rural Manitoba. I might add, Mr. Chairperson, that all of these figures are coming out of my head. So if there is a number or two that might be somewhat inaccurate, I apologize in advance. I believe that most of the numbers that I am giving are correct, but I am not referring to any notes.

The other significant thing, I think, that has happened in the last week or two is the announcement of the foreign doctors program. For the first time, Manitoba has developed a program that will train and allow the ability of foreign-trained Canadian citizen doctors to practise medicine in Manitoba. I cannot over estimate the significance it has to have had to many people's lives. The way the program was structured, I commend all of the individuals and organizations involved.

It was a monumental task to bring together all of the various groups, to put them in together and try to carve out a program that is literally unique in Canada and will permit foreign-trained doctors in as little as a weekend test, for example, to have the ability to practise with a conditional licence in rural or northern Manitoba and put them on the same par as other individuals who have conditional licences and permit them the opportunity of taking their

Part II examination in order to get a full licensure. It is a unique program. It is a new program. It is a made-in-Manitoba program. It addresses one of the fundamental criticisms that we have heard, which are that you are not doing enough for doctors, and you are not taking advantage of those highly skilled and educated individuals that are amongst us who have come to Manitoba in order to provide for health care. So it is an attempt to meet those objectives. So the nursing and the doctors and the medical programs are all new initiatives. Several years ago none of this was in place. Now it is in

1740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 place. It is funded. That is not to say there will not be some difficulties. I always anticipate there will be some difficulties, but I think the initiative is indicative of some of the hope that has been put back into the health care system with respect to the future. There will be more. We identified very early on that human resources may be the single most important issue facing health care. There will be more initiatives on a variety of fronts that will be coming forward dealing with the human resource issue.

Unfortunately, as I have said on previous occasions, you cannot overnight deal with a problem that has been building for a decade, but in the first 18, 19 months there have probably been more initiatives on the human resource front than at any time in the past decade. That is a recognition of the need to rebuild the human infrastructure in our health care system and provide the kinds of supports to deal with the demands that are put upon all of us in a health care system that has a variety of needs. Mr.

Chairperson, in the past few weeks we have had the occasion to proclaim The Protection for Persons in Care Act, again a new initiative and an initiative that was not in place, an initiative that has been brought in by this Government based on a pledge that occurred in the '90s and recommendations that occurred in the '90s as a result of situations in some personal care homes where individuals suffered some unforeseen-well, unfortunate consequences. We were able to proclaim

an act that will provide protection for not only those individuals who are in institutions in this province but for individuals who work in those institutions to provide care and to be able to have a vehicle to deal with issues that relate to people's care. I should tell you, Mr. Chairperson, this is the first part of what will be a more complex and a much-needed complaints mechanism system that we intend to roll out over the next few years and will form the basis of a system that will allow for patient complaints and follow-ups to occur much quicker than they have over the past several years.

Just last week for the first time as well in Manitoba we announced an eating disorders program at Health Sciences Centre, again an initiative that had been a long time in coming and that we were very honoured to have the opportunity of working with organizations like EDAM, Eating Disorders Association of Manitoba, to put in place, a program that was community-based with institutional supports that will provide the kinds of supports for those individuals who have acquired this illness and their families in order to help them.

I was aware, and we were aware, of the significance and the prevalence of this particular affliction, but I have been quite surprised at the number of individuals who since we have announced this program have commented to me about the need for that program. It is very clear that this is an area of need that had not been wrapped together and brought together, and we were very fortunate to be able to do this and to fund it. We look forward to improving the situation for individuals in our society who suffer from this affliction. This is not something that one should tread with lightly.

This disease in many cases results in fatalities, fatalities of young Manitobans, far too many. If this program can play a small

part in improving the lives of those individuals and those of their families-and again it is another example of a new direction, a community-based program, an outreach program, a program dealing with not conventional acute care illnesses that one is used to dealing with but dealing with an affliction that affects far more individuals in this province than most people are aware. In addition, Mr.

Chairperson, that very same week we saw the opening of a PACT office, Program of Assertive Community Treatment, again a Manitoba first, a program that had been studied for a decade in this jurisdiction, which we had called for, a community-based program, a program to deal with the acutely mentally ill. * (15:20) The plans are to take 100 or 120 individuals who suffer from severe mental health problems, usually schizophrenic or psychotic individuals for whom no program effectively works and to wrap around them a program where a variety of

May 15 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 41 individuals, health care professionals, social workers, dieticians, nurses, doctors and related individuals provide services to that particular individual when and where that individual needs it, a program that is world recognized as being effective. Now we have that program in Manitoba.

Another program, another effort to reach out to our fellow citizens, something that is outside of the acute care conventional approach, which is community-based and which is again indicative of the many things that Health is doing differently and importantly to affect our citizens, whether it is eating disorder, whether it is PACT or whether it is the most compre hensive vaccination program for flu shot ever undertaken in this province and for the first time ever in the province of Manitoba a pneu mococcal vaccination program, again another preventative measure undertaken. Or, Mr.

Chairperson, for the first time a program to deal with childhood injuries, a program never undertaken before comprehen sively. The feedback from that program was outstanding and is going to form the part of continuing programs of preventative health care for our citizens.

So the last year has seen some interesting innovations and developments and expansions of our health care system in the ways that the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, the CIHis of the world, the Michael Rachlis of the world, the health care economists, even the people who advocate the privatization of health care through the French model have to look at and indicate that that is the kind and the way the health care system ought to be proceeding, innovative programs, programs never before seen in Manitoba. We have seen two other initiatives undertaken by the Province of Manitoba that are unusual.

We have seen two efforts based on compassionate assistance to individuals and groups. The first is a compensation program offered to victims of hepatitis C who are outside of the '86 to '90 window of compensation from the federal-provincial agreement. Manitoba is one of three provinces that offer compensation to these individuals. We announced it; we are doing it. We think it is the right thing to do. We think it is the kind of thing that the average Manitoban looking at it would say is necessary.

The second is a compensation package offered to the 12 families, the 12 parents of the Health Sciences pediatric cardiac inquest. We offered a one-time $1 00,000 compassionate assistance to these individuals. In both cases the situations were unique. In both cases the situations resulted from system atic breakdowns of the system. In both cases we think Manitobans felt, and we on behalf of Manitobans felt, that it was the right thing to do. Neither case in our view is precedent setting. Both cases have unique circumstances. Both cases, we believe, were necessary.

I had the occasion, continuing along with the theme, last week to open officially a health resource centre in the village of Ethelbert and another one in the village of Pine River, two unique ventures to deal with the health care needs in those communities, two efforts strongly supported by the community. Ironically the sight upon which we officially opened the health resource centre in Pine River was on the site of an old hospital that had been there a long time ago. The citizens of that region recognized they require the resources of that centre.

It is staffed and functioned by nurses and others, and they are a welcome addition to our continuum of health care. So you see, Mr. Chairperson, very clearly a pattern emerges: a reinvigoration and supports in the acute care system; a training and educating of health care professionals to deal with the difficulties that occurred over the past decade; a move towards the community; a move towards the most comprehensive community programs that have ever appeared in this province. Mr. Chairperson, several weeks ago we had the occasion to announce the expansion of the Nor'West Community Health Care Centre.

Again, a primary heath care project, and work on the River East and Transcona Access centres. Mr. Chairperson, these are new initiatives in urban settings that again fit into the model of where one should be going in health care,

1742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 providing primary base care, work that was not done over the past decade, but we have undertaken to fund it and to put it in place. I was aware of grand plans and grand schemes over the '90s, Mr. Chairperson, but so many grand plans and grand schemes went for naught. We are putting in place funding, budgeting and dealing with those issues. I am very pleased that we have a health care system that is prepared to be innovative. Last week we had occasion to open the Boundary Trails Hospital. The largest green project hospital undertaken since the 1980s.

Very exciting for the community. Incredibly sophisticated tech nology. The community was very happy. It was very pleased to see the opening of that health care facility. It is something that had been worked on and dreamed of in that community for almost a decade. We had the honour of funding and cutting the ribbon. Mr. Chairperson, I refer to many of the new initiatives.

One of the new initiatives that was undertaken, and unfortunately like so many other new initiatives that were undertaken, has been met with distaste by the Opposition, and I expect that; that is their goal to oppose and oppose they do, oppose everything that we do in fact. Mr. Chairperson, I think the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) had a comment, but I am sure she will get her opportunity. Mr.

Chairperson, when I was attending the health care meetings, both across the country with health care ministers, one of the key issues that was isolated and indicated to me there was difficulty was the movement of private clinics, private hospitals into the health care system. I am aware, and I hope we have a good debate on this, that the Opposition want us to go that way. I am aware that Mike Harris is going that way. I am aware that the Premier of Alberta is going that way. That is this one single-minded approach that we must go to privatize because that is going to save health care.

I noticed there have been numerous articles in the paper by a consultant to the Tory party on that point. I note there seems to be this fixation that everything must go private to save medicare. Mr. Chairperson, I do not think we should be so narrow in our thinking that only going private is the way to save medicare. You know, the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation was set up by Don Orchard when he was minister to evaluate change, innovation in health care. It has a worldwide reputation. It has examined the privatization efforts.

You know, it has concluded both from the Alberta experience and the Manitoba experience that going the private route results in longer waiting lists. Statistically demonstrated and proven. Yet there is this blind dogma, an ideology that suggests that is the only way to go with respect to health care. An ideological preoccupation that stuns me, because that seems to be the only answer. Go private. Go private. * (15:30) I say, Mr. Chairperson, why can we not try a made-in-Manitoba innovative model? That is what we are trying with the Pan Am experience.

We are going to take some ofthe benefits of the private sector, and we are going to try to be innovative. Members opposite say, open the Canada Health Act. Fund private clinics. Fund private hospitals. Make people pay. Mr. Chairperson, we say, there are different models to follow. We do not have to blindly follow the ideological dogma. We think we ought to look at innovation. That is what Pan Am is all about.

You know, I hope and I know we will have a healthy debate on the Pan Am initiative, and that is the way it should be, but I just ask members to consider opening their minds to different options and not proceeding blindly to only pursue privatization, and privatization at all costs. To be blindly fixated on privatization is the only solution to the health care problems that we face, because I have always felt that these one-trick panaceas will not solve it. Yes, there are initiatives that are taking place on the private front.

Yes, there is demonstrative evidence that it does not work, but there are initiatives taking place. But to blindly, at every opportunity, suggest that private is the only way to go, I think is a mistake and a trap that some individuals tend to fall into.

May 15, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1743 With respect to Pan Am, we provided, Mr. Chairperson, significant analysis, unprecedented in my years in the Legislature, of information which indicated that Price Waterhouse pointed out that the Pan Am exercise could result and would result in significant profit to the health care system, which can be reinvested back into the health care system. Aw, the members heard the word "profit," and they are getting all excited. I want to indicate that that is part of the difference.

We think profit should go back into the health care system, and that is what we are trying to do in terms of Pan Am. So we are not only going to have initiatives that can plough money back into the health care system, but increase the number of services that are offered.

You know, what I do not understand is, when so much innovation and development is occurring in the health care system, how members opposite could vote against the Budget, to vote against PACT, to vote against eating disorders, to vote against protection of persons in care, to vote against the compensation pack ages, to vote against the vaccination packages, Mr. Chairperson, to vote against the doctors expansion, to vote against the nurses expansion. It is perplexing to me, but I will leave it to others to do the analysis.

One of the other developmental areas that I think bears discussion is the whole area of palliative care. We are enhancing and expanding the community-based palliative care programs. I think Manitoba has been recognized as a leader in palliative care, and we are very pleased to fund and continue those initiatives. I should note, as well, Mr. Chairperson, since I am highlighting some of the new initiatives and some of the changes in our health care system, that, of course, yesterday I had occasion to announce the look-back trace-back program in Manitoba.

By Thursday, I anticipate that up to 20 000 Manitobans, actually 18 500, but perhaps it will be a little broader at the end of the day, will receive notification that they may have a small chance of being infected with the hepatitis C virus, and they are going to receive that letter and be asked to contact their health care professional and are provided with a requisition in order to draw to have a blood test.

Cadham Lab is going to be the recipient of the sampling and are trying to and are promising to have a two-week turnaround from the time the blood is drawn until the test is back in the hands of the health care professional. We are hoping, with our resources and everything that the public health people are doing, that we can achieve those goals. We felt we had to proceed. I was criticized at yesterday's press conference for not moving sooner.

I said that I could not speak for the previous government, that governments allocate their resources accordingly, but that we were doing the best that we could do since the program took about a 14- to 16-month planning phase. It will be difficult for some Manitobans, but for those that are alerted to the fact that they might have hepatitis C, it will provide them with an opportunity to be in advance and to take preventative steps and measures to deal with their particular situation. We are hopeful that we can diminish the effects that that illness can have on individuals as a result of the non-detection.

One of the areas, when I indicated earlier that there was a need for an infrastructure and diminishing of resources that had occurred when we entered office, was the whole area of EMS. As members might be aware, when we came into office we were in receipt of a report that had been commissioned by the previous ministers that outlined a huge gap in EMS resources across Manitoba. It outlined a series of measures that should be put in place to try to narrow that gap to put EMS services on par with those in other jurisdictions and with what should be acceptable in a modem health care system. Mr.

Chairperson, we began the task of rebuilding the EMS system. I find it perplexing that members opposite have criticized some of our efforts, and to be charitable there has not been a lot of efforts in the decade preceding. We doubled the resources we put into EMS. We doubled the resources we put into EMS in last year's Budget, and we increased resources this year. We are renewing half of the EMS fleet in this province. That still is not enough.

We have renewed the communications equipment and we are putting in place a call centre to be located in Brandon that is going to be a call centre for all of rural Manitoba.

1744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 Again, you cannot overnight do and change something that has been left to deteriorate over a decade. So while we are taking efforts to do everything we can in EMS, we cannot do everything we would like to do in EMS. I think individuals are appreciative of the efforts that have taken place under this Government to begin the long road back to rebuilding an EMS system for all Manitobans. * (15:4 0) We had the occasion this morning to deal with the Canadian Diabetes Association and deal with some of the statistics as it relates to diabetes.

We in Manitoba are fortunate that we have a strategy that was put in place in 1998. I remember at the time commending the minister of the day for doing that. We have undertaken to continue those measures and to continue to put in place the recommendations of the diabetes strategy. We have and we will continue. Unfortunately, we still are playing catch-up to a certain extent with the ravages of the end stages of that disease. None of us, I suppose, can be proud in this Chamber to the significant amount of money that we are paying for end stage treatment of the disease in the form of dialysis.

While we are expanding dialysis, as we speak, there is more construction on dialysis units taking place over at Seven Oaks, that is both a testament to the care provided in the health care system and to a certain extent it is a recognition of a failure, collectively, to do more to prevent this illness and the end stage of this illness. Of course, the greater proportion of sufferers of this particular illness are our Aboriginal brothers and sisters, First Nations communities, where the ravages of this disease are apparent for all to see. Mr. Chairperson, we are undertaking some initiatives.

We are working with some of the Aboriginal communities to deal with this. We are also proceeding to move on increased dialysis. Recently, not only have we had a vaccina tion program for pneumococcal for the first time, a vaccination program most extensive for the flu for the first time, a child injury campaign to reduce childhood injuries, a significant hep C look-back, trace-back compensation to various groups, but we are returning to the Manitoba tradition of helping others by re-instituting the subsidy to water testing that was cancelled, cut, slashed and removed by the previous administration.

We have put it back in place, a subsidization to help our rural and northern fellow Manitobans to encourage the testing of well water. We are very pleased to have put back in place this particular subsidy. We also had a unique circumstance recently in our health care system, insofar as we had a cluster of cases of hepatitis C. We also had a cluster of cases of meningitis type C. It occurred in clusters in the city of Winnipeg, and based on recommendations from Public Health we launched an extensive vaccination program essentially for teenagers who were the most affected and at-risk group, Mr. Chairperson.

We followed the dictates that had been followed in the only occasion that I am aware of when Public Health undertook a vaccination program. That was in '92-93. We followed the same standards and patterns as at that time. I reflect on that, Mr. Chairperson, because I was the Health critic at that time. I said what we should do is we should consult, and we advised and gave briefings to the Leaders of the two political parties in this Chamber and outlined for them what we were doing, several briefings. While I did not have briefings when I was critic. nonetheless, Mr.

Chairperson, we under took that, and we provided them with extensive information to the opposition parties because this was not a partisan issue. This was a health issue. This was a Manitoba issue and we felt we should deal with it in the best spirit and way that Manitobans dealt with it. I recall, Mr. Chairperson, that at the time of the '93 vaccination program-unfortunately several children died in adjoining communities-! remember being contacted by parents saying we should have vaccinations in our communities.

I contacted Public Health officials who said: In our best judgment we should confine the vaccinations to the particular communities that are affected. So I adhered at that time when I was critic to the advice of Public Health officials, and, as

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1745 minister, I adhere to the advice of Public Health officials today. We continue to adhere to their advice and follow their advice. I was appreciative of the Leader of the Liberal Party for his advice and comments in this regard, and I indicated that in the House, that he was helpful and useful, that in the non-partisan way that we dealt with public health issues, he assisted us in dealing with this issue. I was appreciative of what the Leader of the Liberal Party had to say and had to do in regard to the meningitis issue. Unfortunately, Mr.

Chairperson, events of this kind are very tragic and very sad. I am very pleased to report that there are no new cases at this point. There was a case of May 4, relatively mild, a type C case that occurred in I believe MacGregor, and, fortunately, that woman recovered. In terms of the future, Mr. Chairperson, I think Manitoba tried very hard to obtain authorization from the federal government for the conjugate vaccine.

We pushed quite strongly together with other jurisdictions for the conjugate, and now that the conjugate has been approved, we are working with other provinces to determine when and if and how that conjugate vaccine can be utilized. I really want to commend the work of the Public Health officials and the nurses and all of the health care professionals who chipped in and devoted their time and energy to help their fellow Manitobans.

I can tell you that behind the scenes the work that went on in Public Health in terms of dealing with other jurisdictions across the continent was outstanding, and the co operation from other jurisdictions was outstanding. I could tell you that at some point, Mr. Chairperson, and without telling secrets, that there were issues related to supply across the country.

Fortunately, when we realized there was a difficulty, we secured supply, but there were points in the whole exercise when we were debating with other jurisdictions whether their need for supply and their need to supply the vaccine to their citizens was more important than our need to supply the vaccine to our citizens. So we had some very difficult decisions to make, but we based them on health considerations, and we based it on the need of the population to provide for that care, and we did it in a non partisan fashion.

A NDP government in B.C. vaccinated; a Conservative government in Alberta vaccinated; a PQ government in Quebec vaccinated; and an NDP government in Mani toba vaccinated, but those labels did not apply when it came to health issues. I was proud to be working with a team of officials who worked as hard as they did in order to put in place a vaccination program. We keep our fingers crossed and on the best health advice we have obtained so far, we are doing all right, but our Health officials remain vigilant and are monitoring the situation regularly.

We are in a position and we will continue to be in a position to do what we have to do, based on the best public health advice for all of our population. What I have done this afternoon, just in a few brief moments, highlighted some of the developments that have occurred in health care in the past year in the province of Manitoba. I have had people say that more has happened in the past 18 months than happened in the past decade. I will leave that to others to decide.

I have had people say, in terms of the efforts and the approach, the fact that there has been a balance toward rural Manitoba, a balance toward the urban Manitoba and a balance toward northern Manitoba, has been respected and reflected in our health care system. * (15 :50) I think that we never get it always right. We do not get it all right.

I think for the most part there has been an attempt to move the health care system to reinforce the acute care side, to put in place the basics, to plan for the future, particularly as we address our human resource shortage, and to look at different approaches and different models of approach with respect to health care. I am reflecting on some of the primary care initiatives, of which we have announced several. One of the things that of course has been looked at is people have said, well, why has Manitoba not put out a huge strategy on primary health care reform.

As I said at the MMA meeting several weeks ago, to attempt to put everyone

1746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 200 1 into a room and try to arrive at a consensus on primary health care reform is somewhat difficult. What we are attempting to do in Manitoba with respect to primary health care reform is to look at a number of different models to see what works and then to expand them accordingly. That was met particularly at the MMA with, from my view, outstanding approval. There was some concern that a model of primary health care reform would be forced upon people in the health care system, that was a cookie-cutter approach.

We think, in the health care sector, in the primary care sector, there is a variation that ought to be approached. There is an Ontario model. There are a variety of models in Manitoba. There is a nurse resource centre, there is the access centre, there is the primary health care centre, there is the Nor'West Centre, there is the centre for sante. There are a variety of approaches that we have continued, that we have launched, that we are going to look at, that will look at primary care and the approach to primary care. Of course there is much to be done.

There is always a lot to be done with respect to a health care system. I am appreciative of the efforts of the staff who work diligently to put in place some of the measures that they do put in place. I just want to recognize and acknowledge what I did yesterday at the hepatitis C announcement, that people in the Health Department, if you look at what kind of initiatives have been put in place the past year, it has been difficult for them.

The vaccination campaigns, both the flu and pneumococcal, the water campaign, the meningitis campaign, the hepatitis C campaign, have all been launched, have taken great time and energy. I have to commend all of the people who have participated in those efforts, because they make a lot of difference to the health care of individuals in Manitoba.

I deliberately have not focussed on some of the significant areas of health care that we are going to deal with quite clearly during the course of these Estimates, that we generally deal with, the core programs in our acute care system, the acute care's programs, the home care's, the personal care home program and all of those components that make up our health care system. I deliberately have avoided those, not because of their less importance, but rather because generally what happens during the course of the Estimates is those programs get a fair amount of scrutiny.

What does not generally get scrutinized or discussed or analyzed are those other programs that we have put in place, those other ones that reflect some of the direction of the health care system. They do not always get the care and attention. Most of them do not make for major points in Question Period, nor do they make for significant discussion often during the course of the Estimates debates. Nonetheless, they recognize the fact that rather than just talk about changes in health care, we are actually implementing changes in health care. We are actually doing things differently, doing things in a different way.

You know, Mr. Chairperson, when you do things in a different way, sometimes it prompts controversy and discussion, and it promotes a healthy debate. In some of these areas, I look forward to a healthy debate. I anticipate we will have a good debate, but my only caution is to suggest that the one dogmatic, idealistic approach, the privatization approach to health care is but only one solution and ought not to be seen as the panacea and the save-all and the be all and the end-all of the health care system, because in my experience there are no panaceas, and, secondly, all of the data-and take a look at the data.

Even that in Manitoba shows that those kinds of one-stop simplistic solutions have not been effective. They are a model, they are options, but they ought not to be the one panacea approach to the entire health care system. Alas, Mr. Chairperson, I note that my time is up. It is amazing how one can discuss these matters extemporaneously, but I look forward to continued discussions during the course of the Estimates debates. Thank you. Mr. Cha irperson: We thank the Minister of Health for those comments. Does the Official Opposition critic, the honourable Member for Charleswood, have any opening comments? Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Cbarleswood): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to make a few opening remarks, and I would like to thank

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1747 the minister for his opening comments, although I do take issue with some of the points that he raised. I will be addressing those through the Estimates process. I would like to take a moment to commend the minister for what he is trying to do in health care, but I would like to indicate that good intentions alone are certainly not enough. I would recognize the effort he is putting into the job, and I do know how much he cares about the issues.

I think that is very obvious many times in his responses to questions or the look on his face when he has to address a certain issue, and you can tell when somebody cares about an issue. I recognize the immense challenges he faces in dealing with the complexity of our health care system and appreciate that there are no easy answers and that nothing happens overnight. I also want to recognize and appreciate the work effort, perseverance and heart of everybody working in the health care system, from those in Manitoba Health to those in the trenches.

Certainly in talking to people at all levels within health care, it amazes me that there is so much heart and so much belief in our health care system and so much determination by people to make it work. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) certainly has the honour and the privilege of creating the environment in which people work, and certainly I want to recognize the efforts of all of the people who are involved. My remarks, Mr.

Chairman, are going to focus on one thing and that is the need for a plan, because without a plan I have to wonder how we can promote improved health outcomes and avoid misuse of precious resources. John Keen, a strategist, explained that a vision can focus, direct, motivate and even excite business into superior performance. The job of a govern ment is to identify and project a clear vision. The World Health Organization has told us: Today and every day the lives of people lie in the hands of our health care system.

From the safe delivery of a healthy baby to the care with dignity ofthe frail elderly, health systems have a vital and continuing responsibility to people throughout their life span. The question for any health care system is, given the health care providers and the resources devoted to the health care system, how close does it come to the most that could be asked of it? Manitoba has Canada's highest level of spending and Canada's third highest level of nurses per population, but are we receiving exceptional health care?

Manitobans entrust both their bodies and their money to the health system which has a responsibility to protect the former and use the latter wisely and well. This Government needs to provide the stewardship. They need to have a plan so that there will be effective and responsible management of our health care resources. Mr. Gregory Dewar, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair During the 1990s, we saw an economic downturn and a sharp cutback in federal funding. However, the Conservative government maintained the funding to the health care budget by increasing provincial funding.

I am proud of the plan we had and the things we were able to achieve in spite of these financial difficulties. * (16:00) I would like to review some of the 1999 statements made by the then-Minister of Health, Eric Stefanson, to demonstrate that we had a plan that was effective and efficient and resulted in improved outcomes. I quote: As we approach the millennium, it is an honour and a privilege today to present the Estimates of the Department of Health for the fiscal year ending March 3 I, 2000.

Today I am asking this committee to support my department's request for $2. 1 million inclusive of capital and operating expenditures. It represents our ongoing commitment to quality health service for all Manitobans. I certainly note that a large majority of this House voted just yesterday to approve our 1999 Budget. We have recognized the need and are responding to it with unprecedented new resources, more than $2 billion in the context of a comprehensive plan.

He would have been shocked to see the costs of health care rise so dramatically as they have, with no improvement in waiting lists, no end to hallway medicine and a spectacular increase in health care provider shortages, but I digress.

1748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 ,200 1 Mr. Stefanson went on to say, and I quote: First, I want to take this opportunity to acknowl edge and thank, on behalf of Manitobans, the ongoing work and dedication of the many health care providers in the provision of health services to their fellow Manitobans. I also want to acknowledge the dedication and commitment of the staff and boards of regional health authorities in developing and co-ordinating local health services specific to the needs of regional residents.

I am pleased to acknowledge the tremendous progress made by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority and the regional health authorities over the course of the last one to two years. It is clear that Eric Stefanson understood the need to recognize the people who make the health care system work. Sincere recognition and genuine appreciation are highly energizing. Mr. Acting Chairman, Eric Stefanson went on to say, and I quote: Health care now represents approximately 35 percent of the Manitoba provincial Budget. It is by far our largest single expenditure.

It is a higher priority for us than almost any other province in Canada, and it has been sound management over many years that has allowed us to make health care such a high priority. We are determined to maintain and sustain our health care system for now and for the new millennium. Little did he know that a report published three months after these opening statements would demonstrate Manitobans, once referred to a specialist, had a shorter wait than patients in B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan and only one week longer than those in Ontario. Beyond this, Dr.

Brian Post! responded to the report by pointing out the numbers can only get more impressive, since a number of initiatives to Jessen the wait for surgery have been introduced since the study was conducted. I will have several questions later as to why this bright picture was not maintained. Our government in 1999 was recognizing and supporting our health care providers, including our nurses, and supporting them in positive ways.

Eric Stefanson went on to say, and I quote: That is why I intend to introduce legislation to update The Licensed Practical Nurses Act, The Registered Nurses Act, The Registered Psychi atric Nurses Act, and The Physiotherapists Act. This existing legislation is more than 20 years old, but the role of nurses and other health care providers has changed dramatically. Many nurses have told me, Eric Stefanson stated, and I quote: That much of their frustration comes from not being recognized in the ever-increasing responsibilities that they have taken on over the years.

It is safe to say that nurses from 30 or 40 years ago would have some difficulty recognizing the profession today. The legislative changes will recognize these new roles and will include enhanced public representation on governing bodies and committees. Clearly, Eric Stefanson understood the challenges that faced the health care professions, particularly the nursing profession, as he went on to say: Last month I was also pleased to announce a $7-million nursing fund to assist in training and recruiting nurses.

In addition to the nursing fUnd, nursing issues are being addressed by attracting more nursing students and exploring incentives to attract more nurse specialists. I am pleased that nursing programs are now offering more courses at rural and northern sites. I am also pleased that employers are converting more part-time and casual nursing positions to full-time permanent positions. As we have outlined in our plan, more physician specialists are being attracted in high-demand fields such as anaesthesia and neurology.

Allied health professionals have been added and will continue to be added to support rehabilitative care and other important areas of patient care. Eric Stefanson went on to say, and I quote: We are also accelerating the recruitment of doctors for rural and northern areas. Medical students have available to them a program offering loans in return for services to communities where doctors are needed. To encourage more medical students to consider rural practice, Manitoba Health also offers paid summer work experience with family doctors in rural areas.

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1749 Once again, Eric Stefanson was not aware of just how successful our government's actions were. As the College of Physicians and Surgeons would announce in the fall, there was an increase of 21 in the net number of physicians from one year ago and the Manitoba Medical Association would cite the rural ER program as very successful in recruiting and retaining physicians in rural Manitoba. I would like to have the time to read Eric Stefanson's whole speech because it is so very informative. Nevertheless, the time will not allow it.

It is important to say that the plan included improvements in mental health care, community care, continuing care program, addition of a significant number of long-term beds, 226 senior support projects, new mobile breast screening service, a comprehensive breast health program, companion care, new funding for better services for speech, language, physiotherapy and occupational therapy for children, expanded rehabilitative and therapy services for seniors, construction of 17 new specially equipped birthing rooms for labour, delivery and post-partum care, a comprehensive strategy to address Aboriginal health and women's health.

Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Other innovations and accomplishments included an integrated and co-ordinated approach to manage waiting lists, central bed management, enhancement of weekend dis charges, a commitment to keep Manitobans informed about their health care system, intro duction of community care access centres, which I noted that the minister referred to today, development of new standards and regulations for long-term care facilities, and the list did go on and on.

I quote Eric Stefanson again: When it came to waiting lists, our government in 1999 understood the need for even faster access to tests and treatments. That is why we announced one of the highest priorities for our government, and certainly for me, is to reduce waiting lists. I am committed to making sure that our access to service is among the best in Canada. Two new MRI machines will help us provide more than 3500 new scans this year alone. Our capacity for CT scans has increased by about 15 percent, and with the expansion of ultrasound services about 8700 more procedures can be performed this year.

Additional funding for cardiac care will provide echocardiograms for 3000 more adults and 300 more children, and cardiac catheterizations for 800 adults. It is clear Eric Stefanson knew that Manitoba needed a plan and that plan was having good effects. Today Manitoba is an example of a province where untargeted increases in overall government health spending are ineffectual. We have the highest per capita provincial government spending, and there is no reduction in waiting time. This has caused a growing dissatisfaction with the health care system.

Eric Stefanson demonstrated that the Conservative government had to plan for increased demands in the future when he stated: One of the pressures that the system will be facing is the complications resulting from diabetes. I am pleased that we have recently expanded our dialysis capacity by 15 percent, which is making it possible to provide 15 000 more treatments annually to meet the growing demands. Dialysis services have been added in Ashern and expanded in Portage Ia Prairie and The Pas.

In the coming years, we will continue to meet the challenge of diabetes faced by a growing number of Manitobans, but prevention is by far the most important way to protect the quality of life of Manitobans at risk of this disease. Mr. Chairman, we will be asking this Government if they have a plan to deal with the health needs of the baby boomers. As the baby boomers age, their need for medical care and hospital use will increase dramatically.

In fact, at the diabetes breakfast this morning we certainly did have an opportunity to hear about the future impacts that we will be seeing in this province and this country as more and more people will develop diabetes. * (16:10) In 1999, Eric Stefanson demonstrated that he understood the stressors on the health care system when he said: Another critical priority

1750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 2001 for us and for our government is to relieve hospital overcrowding. Hospitals should be used for what they were intended, as places for acute care. This coming year, we will be adding more than 600, in fact, with the additional capital announcement as part of the Health capital budget, we are now up to 850 net new personal care home beds to provide better accommo dations for people needing long-term care who are now in acute care beds.

Let me repeat, we have tripled the budget for home care since we began restructuring, and we will continue to enhance this program which is so vital to relieving demand for hospital beds. Our plan also encompasses exciting new approaches for emergency care. Misericordia's 24-hour Urgent Care Centre is a new service that is taking the pressure off Winnipeg emergency rooms and is contributing to improved access to health services.

Eric Stefanson goes on to say: Another important area where we are improving access to health services is through primary health care, the basic care that is the first line of defence in the treatment of illness and in the promotion of health. Several primary health care models are being tested in Manitoba, including four community nurse resource centres. For example, we have already implemented the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre and several additional primary health care centres around the province are in the planning stages.

Examples of such initiatives include proposals for the Francophone centre and primary health centres in other communities. But no matter how good our illness care system becomes, it is far better to keep healthy than to suffer the burden of illness or injury. End of quote. The current Government has done nothing but to slow down the movement towards primary care. They are now announcing things that we were doing in 1999.

In fact, they are now just putting in place narrow focus programs, where in 1999 we were announcing multifaceted programs, and I quote: Let me just list a few examples of the innovative programs that help families raise healthy children and that lead to the promotion of good health. Women and Infant Nutrition, or WIN, provides up to $65 per month to help women on social assistance eat well during pregnancy and during the first year of their child's life. Stop F AS works with women at high risk for delivering babies with fetal alcohol syndrome.

BabyFirst funds visits by public health nurses and home visitors to help new parents provide good care and nutrition, and EarlyStart helps families meet the ongoing health and development needs of growing children. End of quote. Mr. Chairman, this demonstrates that our government knew how to focus money where it was most needed and to create multifaceted programs that would deal with the most important issues. We were ensuring that tax payer dollars would focus on the areas of highest need.

The last statement of Eric Stefanson that I will have time to review is, and I quote: I want to acknowledge that as a new Minister of Health I am building on foundations that were laid by my predecessor. I am proud to continue the work of building on a plan to ensure the system is here today and into the future. We are very fortunate in Manitoba. Our economy is strong, our fiscal house is in order. We have the ability to build on very strong foundations: If we all work together, if we have the will and if we have the vision, we will build the health system that Manitobans need and deserve.

So in the new millennium we will need to continue to make new choices and decisions. All our efforts are aimed at one goal, a high-quality health system that is sustainable for now and for the future. I want to remind all of us that the health system is far too important for narrow interests. End of quote. It is clear that the Conservatives knew in 1999 and still know now that the health care system should provide a wide range of health services to fill current and future needs so that Manitobans can live longer and healthier.

It should be constantly looking for alternative ways to fill the needs it is currently filling and searching for new or more appropriate treatments. It is a needs driven system and will only be seen to be successful if it fills the needs of Manitobans. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has stated in the House and publicly that 90 percent

May 15, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1751 of what the Conservatives did in health care was right. I wholeheartedly agree with him. In fact, during this past year, as I have reviewed various files and planning documents, I have to say that I was overwhelmed by the progress our government had made in health care in the last decade. I was impressed with the vision, with the plan, with the innovation. In many areas Manitobans were leaders in Canada, and we did it during a time of fairly substantial financial instability. How we achieved so much despite the challenges that we did face still surprises me.

But there is no doubt what I saw articulated in document after document was a solid vision for health care, with sound prioritization of what was needed to strengthen our health care system and a clear indication that our goal was to improve patient care and patient outcomes. But to listen to the Minister of Health, even during his opening remarks, and his many comments over the past year, one would think that with his criticism after criticism of the previous government that nothing had ever been achieved.

However, I would again remind him that when he became the new Minister of Health and had a chance to begin to review our complex and complicated health care system, his reaction was to recognize our accomplishments and to praise us for doing 90 percent of what we had done in health care he felt we had done right, which brings us to look at where our health care system is at today. The kind of spending we are seeing is, I feel, unmanageable and unsustainable over the long run, particularly in this area of health care and the many challenges that are going to be in our future.

We have seen health spending increase by $469 million over the 1999-2000 Budget. That is a 22% increase in two years. That is almost half a billion dollars. Health care spending is now 38 percent of Manitoba's total Budget or $2.6 billion. Because we have not seen a plan for health care, I have little comfort or little confidence in this Government's ability to manage the health care challenges wisely. They do not appear to be looking for the efficiencies in health care. They do not seem to be looking for the innovations which could help make our health care system stronger.

It takes very little effort to defend the status quo. It is so interesting to note that right after the NDP government formed Government the Minister of Health said, and I quote him: We do not have any control over spending. The buck stops nowhere. It looks like it appears it still stops nowhere. He said then when the budget was $2.1 million, that spending was out of control. He called it a disaster. Half a billion dollars later, I wonder what he calls it now. The Minister of Health also said that every day he spends on the job is like a frightening ride on a runaway train.

Well, it almost begins to appear that maybe that train has derailed itself a little bit, and we have to wonder where the spending is going to stop. How can it possibly be sustained at this rate?

Where is all this money the minister has now built into the baseline going to come from down the road, in future years, especially with some of the huge expenses which will arise in the next few years? * (16:20) After riding an election promise to eliminate hallway medicine and fix health care in six months with $15 million, the Doer government pumped half a billion dollars into health care, and we still have hallway medicine and health care is not magically fixed like they claimed it would be.

In opposition, the NDP demanded over and over that when we were in government we should put more money into health care, and we did add more money as we were able to and as we were able to meet the increasing demands in health care, so we did put more money into it. Then they became government and accused us of reckless spending. Then, interestingly enough, they built all this so-called reckless spending into the baseline and added 6 percent on top of that, and then they overspent that amount by $75 million. Well, the Minister of Health said the buck stops nowhere. He is wrong.

Whether they like it or not the buck stops at the desks of the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Health Minister. They have choices to make. As we unravel their spending in Estimates, it will be interesting to see where they have chosen to spend and why they made that

1752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 200 1 choice, and if it is making a difference to the patient. Is health care 22 percent better? Are patient outcomes better? I think the evidence is saying no, despite the fact that the Doer government has increased health care spending so that Manitobans spend well above the Canadian average and spend more than any other province in Canada on a per capita basis. Has all this extra spending, half a billion dollars in two years, helped them to keep their election promises? No, Mr. Chairman, it has not.

Throwing money at health care is not the way to make the system sustainable in the long term. We have to manage that spending wisely and fairly. Money alone is not the solution, as we have seen these past 20 months. Informed, solid spending decisions need to be made based on a vision and a plan for health care in Manitoba.

The recent report from the Canadian Institute for Health Information called Health Care in Canada 2001 demonstrated that Canada ranked third among G7 countries in terms of health care expenditures per person behind only the U.S. and Germany, yet there is little evidence that spending more meant better healt

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-30
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 30.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8d94103395f3c9a645f1630d9f39a4e3487743e2

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