April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1011 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:30 p.m. Date: 04/04/26 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon, and welcome back. Hon. members, at the conclusion of the prayer please remain standing for the singing of our national anthem. It will be led today by Mr. Paul Lorieau. Let us pray. We give thanks for the bounty of our province: our land, our resources, and our people. We pledge ourselves to act as good stewards on behalf of all Albertans. Amen. Hon. Members: O Canada, our home and native land!

True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. The Speaker: Please be seated. head: Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Increasing awareness and education about the la w is important to helping Albertans better understand how the justice system works.

Over the past 35 years the legal studies program at the University of Alberta has remained a leader across Canada in public legal education. An hour ago Alberta Justice and the legal studies program released A-Link, Alberta’s law-related information network. A-Link is the first of its k ind in Canada as an on- line directory that increases Albertans’ access to information. It’s my pleasure and privilege to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Asse mbly three ke y indivi duals from the University of Albe rta’s le gal studie s program . Dr.

C heryl McWatters is the dean of the Faculty of Extension. Dr. McWatters is a dedicat ed continuous le arner and a mem ber of Ca nada’s academic community for more than 10 years. Professor Lois Gander is the associate dean of the Faculty of Extension and director of the legal studies program. Dr. Gander is recognized as a Cana dian leader in promoting public access to law a nd justice i nformation. Dr. Di ane Rhyason is the associate director of the legal studies program. Dr. Rhy ason wa s the projec t director for the A-Link directory.

I’d also like to introduce Karen Machura, the legal education co- ordinator for Alberta Justice. Karen has done a phenomenal job for the department in this role, and once again it was shown today with the successful launch of the A-Link initiative. They are standing in the public gallery, and I’d ask the House to give them their warm and traditional welcome. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Ms Calahasen: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Today I have the great honour of introducing to you and through you to the Members of the Legislative Assembly some incredible young people, who are accompanied by teacher Ms Tracey Crain – I’d ask that they stand as I name them – and par ent helpers Ms Wanda Amor, Mrs. Michelle Lukan, Ms Joanne Perry , Ms Inga L anctot, Mrs. Bar b MacIntyre, Mrs. Nancy Skrynyk. Of course, they are students from the Roland Michener secondary school in Slave Lake. I’d ask that they all rise and receive the warm welcome. I believe they’re sitting in the members’ gallery. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Mr.

Vandermeer: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. It ’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly 43 students from the St. John Bosco Catholic school. I had the pleasure of attending their grand opening. They are spending their first year in this beautiful school, and I want to commend them on that. They are accompanied by their teachers Mr. Zydek and Mrs. Adolf and their parent helpers Mrs. Donna Ballantyne, Mrs. Lina Brietkreutz, and Mrs. Val Obrigewitch. I’d ask them all to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Rocky View.

Ms Haley: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have one of those strange introductions. My gr oup will not be in until 2 o’cloc k, but I did want to put on record that they are coming in. It’s a school from the city of Airdrie called George McD ougall high school. It’s a great school. Both of my sons graduated from there, so a lot of time and energy by ev erybody was s pent at th at awes ome place. This is a group of 35 people coming in, five adult supervisors and 30 students from the French side of the George McDougall high school .

Th e grade 10 students w ill be in betw een 2 and 2:30, a nd I wante d to mention that they would be in. Thank you very much. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford. Mr. McClelland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m not sure, but I hope that this group of special guests are here. They are 40 students from Greenfield school. The y’re led by the ir teache r, a won derful, dedicated Stacy Morgan, a very loving teacher, and parent helpers Sarah Henderson a nd Kim Aime. If they are here, we would ask them to now stand and receive the warm welcome of the House. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat. Mr.

Renner: Thank you ver y much, Mr. Speaker. As you may know, today members of t he ALS Society of Alberta are meeting with MLAs throughout the building to discuss issues related to ALS and the treatment an d progra ms that are av ailable thr ough the Alberta government. This morning the Member for Redwater and I had the pleasure of meeting with a delegation from the ALS Society of Alberta, one of whom was a constituent of mine. I’m very pleased to see that he has joined us in the me mbers’ gallery today, a nd I would like to ask Mr.

Rod Helfrich, who is an ALS victim himself, to rise and receive the recognition of all Members of the Legislative Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 33 students from Mill Woods Christian school in Edmonton-M ill Woods.

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041012 They’re accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Judy Krahn and parent helpers Mrs. Kathleen Landsman and Mrs. Christine Silva. They’re in the public gallery, and with your permission I’d ask them to stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 16 represen- tatives of the Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis Society, ALS for short.

These guests represent individuals living with ALS, volunteers, and staff of the ALS Society. They include representatives from the ALS Society of Albe rta, ALS Society of Canada , as we ll as th e ALS societies of Manitoba and British Columbia. Today is ALS Aware- ness Day at the Leg islature, and that’s why I’m w earing these cornflowers. These guests are meeting with various caucuses to share informa- tion on the effects of A LS on people living with the disease, the services the ALS Society provides, and to identify ways to collabo- rate strategies to better meet th e needs of t hose living with A LS.

These guests are seated in the public gallery. I w ould now request them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for West Yellowhead. Mr. Strang: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. At this time I’d like to introduce to you and through you to the rest of the Assembly one of the m embers of the A LS Societ y of A lberta, M r. V ictor Beland from Grande Cache, who has really worked hard on this, so at this time I ’d like him to rise a nd receive the tradi tional warm welcome of this Assembly.

Thank you. head: Oral Quest ion Peri od The Speaker: The first Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Health Care Reform Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On February 11 the Premier said he would release the controversial Graydon report on health care in six weeks, but last Thursday, when as ked about tha t promise, the Premier said, quote, well, I fibbed, end quote.

It’s time f or th e Premier to start telling the truth and admit to Albertans that rather than strengthening health care, as the Alberta Liberals would do, this government plans to under mine public healt h ca re and leave Albertans paying more out of their pockets for fewer services. My questions are to the Premier. Why are Albertans hearing fibs about health care from this government instead of the truth? Mr. Klein: Well, I’m not a ‘Fiberal.’ Mr.

Speaker, quite simply, it was our original intention to release the Graydon report, but having second thoughts, which those in politics are allowed – and anyone is allowed to have a second t hought, a se cond thought about any issue – it was decided that we would release the Graydon report in conjunction with a multitude of other reports. The reason for that, Mr.

Speaker, is that I have seen the actions of the Liberals in this Legislative Assembly, and basically what they want to do is take that report and pick out of that report those things that make for a g ood 15-second sound bite, and they w ill try to sensationalize elements of that report. They won’t consider it in its total context. So it was decided that that report would be released along with numerous other reports as well as best practices in other jurisdictions. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you.

Will the Premier confirm that under a plan circulating in his government and in his department of health, user fees for health services will escalate with each additional usage of the system, penalizing those that need health care the most? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the question alludes exactly to what I was speaking about, and that is user fees and those things that make for a good 15-second sound bite. T he Graydon report, along with all other reports, will be released prior to caucus meeting, and caucus will consider an overall plan of action.

That plan will be taken out to the public for consultation and everyone, including the Liberals, will have an opportunity to comment. Dr. Taft: Why is this government embarking on its fifth attempt at health reform in 12 years instead of doing what Albertans want them to do, which is provide more beds, reduce waiting lists, and reduce emergency room overcrowding? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, we want to achieve all of those things, but we want to do it at a cost that is affordable and sustainable so that we will have health care for all of us, our children, and our grandchil- dren in the future.

That’s what reform leading to sustainability is all about. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Government Aircraft Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. While every one else drives to get around Alberta, cabinet ministers last year alone took over 1,100 flights on the government’s fleet of passenger aircraft. My questions are to the Prem ier. How does the Prem ier justify employing 12 pilots, a flight attendant, and four aircraft on standby 24 hours seven days a week at taxpayer expense when the great majority of flights are simply for cabinet ministers?

Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, that is not entirely true. I’ve been on many government flights that invol ve pu blic service employees, and of course public service employees and f irefighters use the planes as well. It’s impossibl e to put a price ta g on the tim e required to do government busines s by all of thos e in gove rnment, inc luding cabinet ministers, M LAs, and the 2 2,000 people t hat we have working in the gover nment. Use of gove rnment aircraft all ows MLAs and government staff to quickly attend to issues in all parts of the province.

It allows ministers, especially, to get more done in one day, which would not be possible with commercial aircraft. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention the cost. Government fleet flights can save taxpayers’ dollars. For instance, not including fixed costs such as salaries and insurance, a full flight on a King Air 200 costs $76.71 per seat round trip to Calgary. What we try to do is make sure that the plane is loaded. Mr. Speaker, the plane is available to opposition members as well, those who want to fly to Calgary. There was one member who lived outside the city of Edmonton.

I don’t know why the others would require it, but certainly on Thursday afternoons and Monday morning or Sunday night there is a shuttle from Calgary to Edmon-

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1013 ton. We load up that small aircraft, and we land, conveniently, at the City Centre Airport. Mr. Speaker, I would a lso like t o point out that on many occa- sions, especially in North America, including Mexico, we use the King Air rather than commercial aircraft at a cost of about $400 an hour as opposed to the $3,000 or $4,000 per round trip it would cost to take commercial airlines. Unlike the federal Liberal cousins that they so wa nt to emulate, we do n ot fly around in A320s or C hal- lenger jets. These are turboprop aircraft.

We do have the inconve- nience from time to time of having the toilet seat loaded with pizzas or sandwiches as opposed to a fu ll galle y, so som etimes we ar e denied the use of the toilet as well. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, since the purpose of these flights is most of the tim e unknown a nd und isclosed, wi ll the Premier publish for t he public to se e the fl ights taken by ca binet ministers and the purpose they serve? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speake r, all flight manifests are ke pt, a nd any member of the public is welcome to view them.

The hon. member knows that, and to s tand up and say that he doesn’t have access to the information is at least, at very, very least, misleading the public. The Speaker: The hon. minister to supplement. Mr. Lund: The reason for the flight is included on every manifest. Dr.

Taft: Since the vast maj ority of t hese flights, over 1,100 last year alone, were approved for use by cabinet or Executive Council, not firef ighting, a nd since a one-way flight on the Ki ng Air t o Ottawa is over $11,000 according to the government’s own figures, can the Premier estimate the cost to taxpayers for flights taken by his Executive Council alone? 1:50 Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I’d be glad to. Again, he’s using figures. If we load the King Air 350 and have someone sit on the toilet, that would make nine people.

If we were to book economy class or even business class, the cost to O ttawa would be approximately $4,000 per person round tri p. Multi ply that by eig ht or nine. T hat is $36,000. So at $11,000 it’s a bargain. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main quest ion. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is almost no public accountability on the 1,600 flights taken on government aircraft in 2003. Contrary to previous procedure government is now tellin g opposition that they may look at the records bu t cannot copy them or bring any computer equipment into the room.

To get a copy of the records, we have now been told by the minister’s office that we must FOIP for them, so once again less transparency, less account- ability. My ques tions are t o the Premi er. In ord er to info rm the public, can the Premier explain why in February 2003 a government aircraft was used by the m inister of health to fly to Cam rose an d back? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. I would assume it was government business. Relative to the procedures with respect to viewing the manifests, I’ll have the hon. Minister of Infrastructure respond. Mr. Lund: Mr.

Speaker, those manifests are all av ailable to the public, and they can be viewed at any time. The opposition is asking for us to copy all those manifests, and there’s a cost t o all of tha t. Through the FOIP they would know what those costs are. B ut certainly they’re open. They can come in and view them, but we are not going to copy them for free. That’s a cost to government; it’s a cost to the taxpayers. If they want those manifests copied, we’ll do it, but there will be a fee. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. You wouldn’t even allow us to take electronic copies.

My next quest ion is to the Premi er. Can the Premier inform Albertans what the purpose was of an October 2003 series of flights taken by the Premier and others from Edmonton to Calgary to San Jose, Albuquerq ue, Houston, C heyenne, an d ba ck to Calg ary? Please tell us. Mr. Klein: Probably can, Mr. Speaker. It was government business. I would remind the opposition that the opposition is certainly part of PNWER and takes government aircraft. I’ve been on the plane with members of the opposition.

I would ass ume that that wa s a mission perhaps in c onjunction with Team Canada – maybe not; I don’t know – or in conjunct ion with Premier Campbell or the western governors’ conferen ce. I t could have been any one of those things. I’m not sure. I don’t have that inform ation in front of me . Had they had the court esy of submitting the questions long before question period, I could give them specific answers, but they are not courteous people. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

Again to the Premier: will the Premier lift the gag order, rec ommit to openne ss and tra nsparency, and ensure that anyone who wishes to copy or make electronic records of the Infrastructure flight logs can do so again? Will you commit to that, Mr. Premier? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, there is no gag order.

When the opposition talks about three King Airs, one 350, two 200s, and a Dash 8 that are in the air m ost of t he time, allowing people – sta ff members and MLAs and m inisters – to conduct government business, they conveniently forget the extravagance, the absolute extravagance of their federal cousins who flip around in Challenger jets and A320s. By the way, w hen they report expen ses, while w e’re on it – I gleaned from the Internet how the f ederal government posts their expenses. This is the travel and hospitality expenses detailed report from the Prime Minister for all of 2004 thus far.

Now, four months have almost expired, and he has one expense. Where? The Chal- lenger jet broke down. Poor dea r soul had to ta ke commercial to Montreal at a cost of $420.39. That’s all I’ve been able to get off the web relative to federal government expenditures. These people are trying to tell the public that the Prime Minister of this country has only spent $420.39 on expenses and travel. That is balderdas h, to say the least. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Spea ker. That wouldn’t even pay for the Premier’s orange juice.

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041014 Beef Recovery Strategy Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, both the federal Liberal and the provincial Tory g overnments are e xperts in de signing BS E compens ation programs where the money seems to end up where it’s needed the least. Moreover, while we all hope that the U.S. border opens to live cattle exports soon, it continues to be abundantly clear that there is still no strategy to deal with the situation should the border remain closed. My question is to the Premier.

Given that it’s been almost two months si nce th e Premie r first committed the prov ince to developing a plan B scenario should th e border not ope n to live cattle exports, can the Premier explain just where the heck plan B is? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, it is in f ront of the minister as we speak. As a matter of fa ct, we had the opportunity to discuss it briefly at Agenda and Prioritie s t his morning. It’ll be coming to cabinet tomorrow. I’ll have the hon. Deputy Premier speak more on this matter. Mrs. McClellan: Mr.

Speaker, the beef recovery plan s trategy or contingency plan, if you wish to call it that, has been worked on by the industry. We have a round-table that numbers up to 60 persons periodically, sometimes a few less, sometimes a few more, as well as some very diligent governm ent MLAs, who try to attend a s many meetings as they can. Last Friday we had our final meeting, and the final report was dra fted. I r eceived a copy of it about 9: 30 this morning. I’ve had an opportunity to very quickly peruse it. As the Premier indicat ed, our cabinet will be r eviewing this docum ent tomorrow.

We’ve had a conversation with the industry as to when we would make that public. I think the hon. member would understand that it would be only c ourteous to sha re that re port with the 60-odd industry people who had input into it . Becaus e we had a drafting team of about a half a dozen people from the industry, designated by the industry, they would like the balance of their members to see the report. The Prem ier has s aid over a nd over a gain: by t he end of April. I don’t know where this member is going with this. By my reading it’s the 26th today, s o we’re act ually a little ahe ad of

schedule on this issue. As soon as the industry indicates how they would like to release this with us, we’ll commence with the release. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Well, given that six weeks ago the government promised to table in this Assembly an itemized list of every recipient of BSE compensation and the amount that they received and at that time the minister indicated that it was 97 per cent complete, what’s the holdup with this one? Mrs. McClellan: Well, Mr. Speaker, we’re at a bout 98.7 per ce nt now.

When you consider that in this House some weeks a go I indicated that we had issued c heques to som e 1,564 fee dlots and owners of catt le at th at tim e, I think t he hon. me mber w ould understand that with the moving of 1.2 million head of cattle through the system, through almost 1,600 owners, there might be just the odd chance that you would have one, two, or three of these cl aims or maybe four o r five or six that you w ould have to do some further work on. I have made a commitment to release that. I have not backed off from that commitment. But, Mr. Speaker, I will not release it until it’s complete.

We anticipate that happening very, very shortly. The Speaker: The hon. member. 2:00 Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Well, given that meat packer margins are once again on the rise, as evidenced by the most recent Boxed Beef Report, which shows that they’re running 300 per ce nt higher tha n at the sa me time last y ear, w hy is th e government not supporting t he House of Comm ons agric ulture committee in demanding that meat packers open their books? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, this is purel y in the hands of the federal government.

They have two avenues: of course, the agricul- ture committee, who is doing this, and also the Competition Bureau. I know that maybe not a lot of concern is there for duplication and waste, but frankly I have a concern for it, and I don’t see any benefit in our replicating the work that’s already going on. Mr. Speaker, we did a review of this to satisfy our own informa- tion n eeds and released that some week s ago. He will have t o contact the federal agriculture committee and ask them why they’re not getting this done faster. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc, followed by the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Direct Energy Mr. Klapstein: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. After months of specula- tion I understand it is now confirmed that Direct Energy has come to terms with ATCO’s retail sector and is now officially setting up shop here in Alberta. My f irst qu estion is to the Min ister o f Energy. What does this transaction mean to my constituents who currently receive natural gas or electricity from ATCO? Mr. Smith: Well, Mr.

Speaker, what it means is th at for the first time in Alberta there will be one provider who can se ll both electricity contracts and natural gas contracts throughout Alberta. In other words, there’ll be one provider, one bill. I understand that this company can also offer other services as well. S o it p uts a c om- pletely diffe rent perspe ctive on the mark eting of ele ctricity and natural gas utilities across Alberta. What it means is that there is a new provider. What it also means, what does not change, Mr.

Speaker, is that the entry of Direct Ene rgy does not affect payments that will be made under our natural gas rebate program. Those will continue for the five important months of t he year, and even if y ou sign a contract with Direct Energy, you will still be entitled to save the money as the rebates are applied. Also, Mr. Speaker, Direct Energy will be the retailer of electricity and natural gas services. AT CO will continue to rem ain in the marketplace as the distributor, as it were. Mr. Klapste in: My second question is a gain to the Minister of Energy.

Is this deal a good deal for the 180,000 electricity custom- ers and 840,000 natural gas customers affected by this private-sector transaction? The Speaker: There’s a lot of opinion here, so let’s be careful. Mr. Smith: Well, that is calli ng for a n opinion, but I think , Mr. Speaker, that the circumstances are appropriate. The government has in an open and transpar ent m anner th rough regu lation, through passage of a bill from the Member for Innisfail-Sylvan Lake and last year through the pa ssage of Bill 3 from the Mem ber for G rande Prairie-Smoky – there is a playing field now that is level.

The EUB is observant and examinative of rates that are put forward to them by

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1015 all provide rs of electricity, all providers of natural gas, w hich includes city-owned utilities. What we do k now is tha t Albert ans will continu e to have the absolute lowest natural gas rates in the country. We also know, Mr. Speaker, as the competitive market model has w orked – we don’t have the hundreds of billions of dollars of debt against the Crown, and we do have some of the lowest wholesale prices of electricity in Canada – that we have the right model for the right companies at the right time. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Klapstein: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My final question is to the Minister of Government Services. Given that some of the marketing practices of Direct Energy’s international parent company have come under question in other jurisdictions, what is the government doing to protect Albertans? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Coutts: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and it is a good question. We like to let Albertans know what their rights are. The rights of the consumer are protected in a code o f conduct and regulations under the Fair Trading Act.

Direct Energy as well as all other electricity and natural gas marketers in this province are well aware of the prov isions in the Fair Trading Act, and if an yone is caught violating those conditions and those regulations, we can and do prosecute. If any one has any questions, the y can c all our consumer toll-free line at 1-877-427-4088. If they’re curious about what their rights are, we will advise them. Marketers have to provide identification when they come to your door.

They must provide you with a written contract, and they must give you the opportunity to sign that written contract and leave you with a copy of that written contract. If they do not, then there is no contract. They also must have a provision in the contract that there is a 10-day cancellation clause so that after you’ve signed it and you wish to cancel after a 10-day cooling off period, you can do so. So Albertans have lots of rights, and they can call our toll-free line to get more information. The Speak er: The hon. Mem ber for Edm onton-Mill Woods, followed by the hon. Member for West Yellowhead.

Classroom Conditions Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Teachers in 42 of Alberta’s 62 school authorities do not have contract settlements in place. Twelve of those districts are currently in mediation, and two have conducted strike a uthorization v otes. My first que stion is to th e Minister of Learning. Given that classroom conditions have changed little from two years ago when most Alberta teachers went on strike, what plans do es the minister have to ensure that the issue is not again mismanaged and results in similar actions by teachers? Dr. Oberg: Mr.

Speaker, two years ago there was a very substantial strike in Alberta. The a rbitrator’s settlement came back at 14 pe r cent, which resulted in the teachers being paid the highest in Canada. This year we put $250 million in budget over budget. There’s a considerable amount of money that has been put into the education system, and I will hope that the sc hool boards and t he ATA find ways to resolve this, find ways to sign contracts, as it is in the local jurisdictions’ purview to utilize that debate. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: has the minister done any board surveys to determine what additional teaching staff reductions are being considered for next September? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, I would be extremely, extremely surprised and disappointed if after putting $250 million into the school system, into the K to 12 education system, there was a decrease in teachers that was being contemplated by any board. The only circumstance that could allow that is where you have the enrolment decrease, and I think everyone in this Assembly certainly would understand that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Massey: Thank you.

My third question is to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. Give n that the m inister is th e only one living w ith the fiction that classroom conditions in the province are actually going to improve, will the Premier take charge of the situation now before we drift into another strike? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the education system is in good hands with the Minister of Learning, so I see no need to interfere with negotia- tions that are all part of the collective bargaining process, nor do I see any need at this particular time to interfere with the workings of the Minister of Learning.

The Speaker: The hon. minister to supplement. Dr. Oberg: Thanks. I’d just like to add, Mr. Speaker, that in the two school jurisdictions that are looking at potential strike votes, it’s my understanding that the issues ar e not salari es. Quite simply, it’s conditions, it’s classroom size, and it’s things like that, that are fully negotiable between the school board and the local ATA.

The local ATAs want it to remain that way, I want it to remain that way, and it’s part of the negotiation process. 2:10 I think that if the hon. member were to look back over the last 20 years, there have been a significant number of negotiations that have been done in exactly this way. We look forward to the conclusion of negotiations. We look forward to that. I believe and I certainly would hope that this would not lead to a teachers’ strike after a considerable, huge amount of resources, $250 m illion of ta xpayer dollars, Mr. Speaker, have been put into the K to 12 system this year alone.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for West Yellowhead, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Clean Coal Strategy Mr. Strang: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Many of the West Yellow- head constituents are aware that c oal is an important resource for energy in this province, not to mention that Alberta has an abundant source of coal. What many Albertans may not know are the positive steps that Canada and the United States and especially Alberta are taking to address this issue of clean coal technology. My question is, then, to the Minister of Energy.

What are Canada and the United States doing regarding clean coal strategies? Speaker’s Ruling Questions outside Ministerial Responsibility The Speaker: Hon. member, with due respect, this is the Legislative Assembly of the province of Alberta, and it’s really not within the competence or the purview of a minister of the Crown of Alberta to

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041016 be concerned about nor be re sponsible for what happens in other jurisdictions. If you want to deal w ith the question about Alberta, that’s fine, but America and some other countr y do not fall within the administrative competence of a minister of this Crown. Clean Coal Strategy (continued) Mr. Strang: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first supplemental question is again to the Ministe r of Energy. How are Canada and Alberta working together to accomplish this goal? Mr. Smit h: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I’m sure the Member for West Yellowhead sees himself as an Albertan first and as a Canadian and, as such, would be looking at Alberta as a leader in clean coal technology and one that does work on a bilateral basis with the United States and with certain states inside the United States as well as across Canada. I think that, firstly, Mr. Speaker, the need for clean coal technol- ogy is o ne that’s very evident. Al berta has well over 700 to 800 years’ supply of low-ash, low-sulphur coal.

This is the best thermal coal in the world and, in fact, is only surpassed by the low-ash, low- sulphur coal deposits that exist in Wyoming. It is to Wyoming that we’ve actually looked for a co-operative program. In fact, when I heard earlier of a tri p to C heyenne, I can r emember speaking in Cheyenne, Wyom ing, on Heri tage Da ys w ith the gov ernor of Wyoming on the subject of sharing clean coal technology. An Hon. Member: You mean by plane? Mr. Smit h: We were f ortunate enough to be ab le to use the government of Alberta air craft and travel at less than comm ercial expense.

So through those efficiencies, Mr. Speaker, we have fo und th at there are, one, c ommonalities t hat exis t betwe en Wy oming a nd Alberta with respect to burning coal with reduced emissions. If we can re duce the em issions ra ther than ta ke the he ad-in-the-sand approach that the Ont ario Libe ral gove rnment ha s done about banning coal producing generators by 2007, why not take advantage of this good fuel sour ce and f ind a way to burn it cle aner, better, more completely to allow us to use that low-cost generation?

The low-cost coal generation has delivered today the lowest wholesale prices of electricity in Canada. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Strang: Thank y ou very much, Mr. Speaker . My se cond supplemental questio n is to the Ministe r of Energ y. How is the minister going to e nsure that t he integrated clean coal strategy is carried out? Mr. Smith: Very simply, Mr.

Speak er, I’m going depe nd on the hard work and the good reports coming forward from the Member for West Yellowhead and the work that he’s doing under the review of the Alberta royalty structure on coal and his recommendations that will be forthcoming for a new Alberta coal policy that positions coal as an important and reliable option for energy generation and value- added product s wh ile continually addressing environmental requirements for clean air, clean water, nondisturbed land.

I know that this com mittee can put toge ther an appr opriate str ategy th at combines the work of the Clean Power Coalition, that works across Canada, as well as the b ilateral efforts that we hav e with the great state of Wyoming and the ability to work with the private sector and with nongovernmental organizations as well. Mr. Speaker, the Alberta government through the Alberta Energy Research Institute is also spending money to push the li mit for reduction in emissions.

We know that the supply of this low-cost fuel is important to low-cost electrical generation, and we know that good environmental practices are the norm in Alberta. Direct Energy (continued) Mr. MacDonald: Deregulation has been an economic disaster for the consumers of this province. The transfer of assets from ATCO to Direct Energy, which is going to be finalized later this week, is yet another example of that. Direct Energy has already been given the green light to increase billing charges on utility bills by $40 to $45 per year. My first question is to the Premier.

In light of this increase in utility costs on our bills, how is the entrance of Direct Energy to the Alberta market going to enhance consumers? Mr. Klein: Mr. S peaker, firs t of all, the sale of AT CO’s retail activities to Direct Energy has absolute ly nothing to do with deregulation. I would point out that the s ale of A TCO’s retail services to Direct Energy has been approved. Power and gas prices won’t be aff ected, but I understand that an ad ministrative charge between $3 and $4 a month will be added to consumers’ bills. Mr.

Speaker, I would point out that this is a transaction between two private- sector companies. The Alberta government’s role through the Alberta Energy and Utilities Board is to review the sale to ensure that ATCO customers are treated fairly and equitably, and that’s exactly what the AEUB did. There was a thorough rev iew, extensive hearings, Mr. Speak er, and I don’t know nor do I believe the hon. Member for Edmonton- Gold Bar attended those hearings or made any attempt to intervene, and that’s a shame. Mr.

MacDonald: Again to the Premier: given that the big promise of deregulation was an increase in competition and that now that we have this transfer of assets, Direct Energy will have an 89 per cent market share of the gas retail market, how is this an increase in competition? This is not deregulation as you promised. Mr. Klein: Mr. Speake r, deregul ation, I w ould r emind t he hon member, relates to the generation of power, and with respect to gas that deregula tion took place clos e to 20 ye ars ago.

But, quite generally, consumers will benefit by having a wider range of options available through Direct Energy than they did under A TCO; for example, the option to purchase energy packages that include both gas and electricity. If he wish es to k now mo re ab out the sale , perhaps the hon. Minister of Energy can shed some light on the situation. Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, thank you. Let me say that this additional entrant into the mar ketplace, com bined with t he appropriat e legislation, allows more companies to provide more products across Alberta. This sti mulates co mpetition; this stim ulates choi ce.

In discussions that I had with Direct Energy this morning, when they informed me of this sale, they said that they have well in excess of 40,000 inquiries w anting to swit ch right n ow, wanting to move towards the Direct Energy offerings. 2:20 So, Mr. Speaker, we’re going to see what this market does. We’ve already seen how Albertans have benefited from the supply of gas in this province. We’ve seen how Albertans have benefited from the supply of generation, and contrary to this member’s idle meander- ings about the transfer of wealth and all that other hocus-pocus that

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1017 he comes up with, ther e has not been a blackout in this province. The only blackout is in his mind. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. Again to the Premier: when will this government force rural electrification associations and rural gas co- ops to allow Direct Energy access to their customers? When are we going to see that? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I will defer to the hon. Minister of Energy. Mr. Smith: Well, Mr.

Speaker, let me say at the outset that rural electrification associations have done a good job – a good job – of delivering power far and wide across 660,000 square kilometres, a vast area, of this great Alberta. They will continue to do a great job. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, rural gas co-ops are the m odel for gasification of rural areas. Alaska has talked to me about it. Other jurisdictions have talked to us about the success of rural gas co-ops.

Rural gas co- ops, the strong management that t hey h ave, and t he strong management units of rura l electrification associations will deal with this new entrant in t he marketplace, and they will f ind appropriate ways to do business together. Let’s encourage them to be what they want to be, and let’s find out where the market will lead us. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-East, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Minimum Wage Rate Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minimum wage issue is an important issue to many Albertans.

Many of my constituents are earning minimum wage and would strongly agree that it should b e raised. My question is to the hon. Minister of Human Resources and Employment. What is the minister going to do regarding minimum wage in the pr ovince, whi ch is now at $5.90, the low est in the country? Mr. Dunford: Mr. Speaker, first of all, we have to understand that minimum wage is not a horse race, so whether you’re first or last or whatever is a m atter of conjecture.

The othe r thing is t hat t here seems to b e con fusion a mongst man y p eople he re withi n the province as to whether or not a minimum wage is a tool of economic policy or a tool of social policy. It’s my view and the way that I’ve administered this portfolio that minimum wage is a tool of economic policy, and when you deal in terms of economic policy , then what becomes of paramount importance is the levels of unemployment.

One of the curious things we discover when we look at a compari- son of minimum wage rates and, of course, then levels of unemploy- ment, especially levels of yout h unemployment, is that it’s not a correlation of 1.00, but we find that there’s a very high correlation between the minimum wage and the level of youth employment. The higher the minimum wage the higher youth unemployment. So I am very reluctant to announce at this point any increase in the minimum wage. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister give us an idea about – he said he was reluctant – the timing of an increase and how much the increase would be, s ince I hav e so ma ny sm all businesses in my constituency? Mr. Dunford: Well, the small-business sector is likely to be the one that would be m ost impa cted. I’m not s ure how many small businesses we have in this province, but there are 12,300 workers in this province that are at the minimum wage, so there’s going to be obviously some impact if this were increased.

Once again, I think we have to understand that we’re talking about economic pol icy here and we a re not talk ing about gov ernment money. If there’s an increase in the minimum wage, we’re talking about emp loyers t hat will have to pa y a hig her price for labour versus the fact that we do have a situation where this government as an employer ha s 19,000 or 22 ,000, whatever the nu mber is, em- ployed. Of course, they are paid much higher tha n the mini mum wage. Yes, businesses would be impacted and unemployment would be impacted, so I’m taking a very cautious and a very conservative view on this matter.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that 1.1 per cent of our workforce, representing over 12,300 people, earn minimum wage, what is the govern ment doing to help t hese working poor pe ople make ends meet? Mr. Dunford: Well, that’s the thing that’s missing in most of th e criticism about Alberta and its minimum wage rate. People simply refuse to acknowledge the other kinds of benefits that are accruing to people who would be con sidered low-income Albertans. Certainly, anybody working at a m inimum wage would be in that category. Let’s talk about it.

Let’s start with the tax, first of all. With the exemption that this government provides for each and every working Albertan, whether they’re married or not, these folks can earn up to $15,200 before paying any tax. It’s so hypocritical in some of the provinces where they talk about this high minimum wage area and then, of course , they claw it ba ck through income tax. Well, this doesn’t happen in Alberta. If, in fact , there ar e children i nvolved wi th a work er that is working at minimum wage, we have, first of all, medical cards. We have children’s health benefits. We have top-up of income.

If we take all of these benefits and these supports that are put in place and if we find what kind of salary you would actually need in order to combine this, well, you know, in Alberta you’re looking at some- where north of $7 an hour. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Ambulance Services Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Tran sferring ambulance services from municipalities to regional health authorities is going to have a m ajor impact on a num ber of communities, particularly those like Lethbridge where fire and ambulance services have been integrated for over 90 years. Em ergency workers, municipalities, and the public at large have been kept in the dark ab out how the transfer of ambulance services will impact the integrated services in these communities. My questions are to the Minister of Health and Wellness. What plan does the province have f or dealing with communities that have integrated fire and ambulance services? Mr.

Mar: Well, Mr. Speaker, what we’ve said all along is that right now, as best as we can estimate, approximately $55 million a year is spent by municipalities to support ambulance services throughout the

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041018 province. We’ve recognized, through the report led by the hon. Member for Calgary-Buff alo, that ambulance services in thei r substance really are an extension of health services. So as a result of that, we feel that it is a prov incial responsibility to cover that $55 million, and we’ll do that. The budget is s et aside, $55 million, for the ne xt fiscal year to cover that cost, a nd the mone y wi ll flow from regional he alth authorities to providers of ambulance services. In the current year, Mr. Speaker, we have $13 million set aside to prepare the transition plan.

We’ve said all along that if the services are already good, there is no compel ling reason why w e’d want to chang e it. So it will depend upon the regional health authorities working w ith the municipalities. Where there are integrated services now, if they’re working well and they’re co-ordinated well, perhaps they’ll continue in exactl y the s ame manner. I do n’t see any reason w hy you’d change it if it’s already a good service. 2:30 The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

To the same minister: given that some regional health authorities are already running deficits, how can the minister guarantee that ambulance services will be given the priority they deserve and receive the fu nding necessary to meet the emer- gency standards of Albertans? Mr. Boutilier: Mr. Speaker, I want to say this as a follow-up to the minister of health.

What I’m hearing from both rural and urban municipal associations is simply this: we w elcome the provincial government’s recognition of the se rvice, we provide a n excellent service to Albertans, and through municipalities the additional $13 million this ye ar, the addi tional $55 m illion next y ear, w hich is totally new mo ney, is going to give Alberta municipalities even greater breathing room. Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. I think the hon. member was asking specifically about regional health authorities.

As it relates to regional health authorities, the money has been estimated as best as is possible in terms of how much it will cost to run these ambulance services, and that am ount is being transferred to reg ional health authorities, who wil l then be able to f low that m oney through to whoever happens to be pro viding t he servi ce, whether it’s an integrated service in a municipality or whether it’s a private operator. However the service is now, we want to improve it. We want to establish a standard f or deliver y of a mbulance servic es in this province, so, Mr.

Speaker, this money will be dedicated for ambu- lances. It will not be used for other purposes. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. Again t o the Min ister of Health and Wellness: how will the government ensure that emergency workers who work with integrated fire and ambulance services will continue to be fully utilized once the control is transferred to the RHAs? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, I wish to correct the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It’s not $30 million for the current year; it’s $13 million for the current year.

The purpose of it is for exactly that: to ensure that there is a sm ooth transition so that, ag ain, good se rvices that ar e already in place will not change. The Speaker: Hon. members, before we get to the next item, we had only 10 hon. members able to participate today, so my apologies to the seven who are on the list. We’ll try and do better tomorrow. Before we go to Recognitions, might we revert briefly to Introduc- tion of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. member for Airdrie-Rocky View. Ms Haley: Thank you so much , Mr. Spe aker.

I appreci ate the opportunity to do this because my students a re in now, and I just wanted to make sure that I had their names on the record properly. This is my group from George McDo ugall high school in Airdrie, which, of course, as I mentioned earlier, is my favourite school in my whole riding. T he teache r is Mr. T yler L eavitt, a nd the parent helpers are G eoff Martyn, Al Black, Patti Rice , and Nicole Opel. There are 35 visitors in the group.

I wo uld ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. head: Recognit ions The Speaker: In 30 seconds, hon. members, I’ll call on the first of seven. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. ALS Awareness Day Mr. Rathgeber: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure for me to rise and recognize A LS Awareness Day at the Alberta Legislature. ALS is often called Lou Gehrig’s disease, and it means amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. It i s also know n as mot or neuron disease. ALS is a rapidly progressive neuromuscular disease.

It attacks the motor neurons, resulting in muscle weakness and wasting. Eventu- ally the ALS patient is left completely paralyzed with loss of speech, swallowing, and breathing. However, the mind remains completely alert and lucid. Sa dly, a l ively unimpaired mind is t rapped in an immobilized body. The average life expectancy of an ALS patient at diagnosis is less than three years. Mr. Sp eaker, ALS is not rare. Betw een 6 and 7 people o ut o f every 100,000 in our population wi ll be diagnos ed with A LS. Almost 3,000 Canadians currently live with ALS.

More than 90 per cent of the people with ALS have no family history of the disease. It is almost always fatal. A person living with ALS relies on access to $40,000 worth of equipment , and nursing care can cost m any times that amount. There is no known cause; there is no known cure or life-prolonging treatment yet. Mr. Speaker, all members have been provided with a cornflower. The cornflower is the sy mbol of ALS because despite its f ragile appearance, it shows remarkable strength. This is symbolic of the strength of the ALS patient.

I would ask all hon. m embers to ri se w ith me and sal ute ALS Awareness Day at the Legislature. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association Mr. Maskell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to recognize the Alberta Motion Picture Indus tries A ssociation for th eir on going support for Alberta’s film, television, and new media industry. On Saturday AMPIA hos ted its 30th a nnual Alb erta film and television awards, or Ro sies, which celebrate exc ellence and outstanding achievement. This year’s awards drew a record 510 submissions.

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1019 It’s thanks to organizations like AMPIA that Alberta has become a hub for this creative arts industry. The financial support provided by the Ministry of Community Development through its Alberta film development program is an integral part of this success story. The arts certainly help make Alberta an exciting and vibrant place to live. On behalf of the ministe rs of Com munity Developm ent and Economic Development, the hon. Member for Airdrie-Rocky View, myself, and all members of this Assembly, congratulations AMPIA and thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary-Currie. Alice Lewis Mr. Lord: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In Alberta we are blessed with a great num ber of outs tanding com munity volunteers in every community. I frankly don’t know where we would be without them. That’s why it’s such a pleasure for me to be able to do a recognition statement for some of these unsung heroes, specifically today one from my own constituency of Calgary-Currie. Alice Lewis was born in the very first Red Cross hospital built in the United Nations, which made her a special person right from the beginning.

That was at T addockwood, Saskatchewan, but for 33 years now she has made her home in Calgary, where she raised four wonderful kids and where she first joined the board of the Richmond community association in 1972. Her goal then was to build a new community hall, but i t wasn’t happening fast. So 15 year s ago she took over the fundrai sing committee, which now has 72 people on the slate, and they raised in excess of half a million dollars ov er that tim e. The new hall just recently opened, and everyone knows that without Alice and her 72 other volunteers it just wouldn’t have happened.

Congratulations, everyone, especially Alice, and keep up the great work. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Excel Resource Society Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize the outstanding work being done in our community by Excel Resource Society, an organi zation that celebrates their 40th anniversary this year. Excel started i n 1964 as a com munity project cr eated by the Alberta Hospital. The org anizers recognized that if t he hospital’s clients were to reintegrate into the community, they would need help in developing personal a nd employment skills.

Excel’s programs have always focused fi rst on the nee ds of the c lients, whether it’s learning to plan and cook their first meal or preparing for their first job. Excel continues to develop plans for their clients of the future. Excel has succ essfully opera ted a priv ate voca tional school, the Excel Academy, to train community support workers.

From their humble beginnings with 15 clients in the basement of the Robertson-Wesley United Church Excel t oday supports some 150 clients in residential programs, about a hundred in the employ- ment placem ent program , and 120 in the da y prog ram at Ge rry Raymond Centre. I salute their efforts. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. British Commonwealth Air Training Memorial Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Sunday, April 25, 2004, I had the honour of attending a special ceremony at Memorial Park in Calgary, where a m onument was unveiled.

It is i n memory of the young men and women of Australia and New Zealand who came to Alberta, receiv ed aviat ion training, and died on duty during the Second World War. These young individuals, like many Canadians of their time, stood up and fought against tyranny. They made the ultimate sacrifice to uphold democracy and freedom. Their sacrifices have provided us with a strong f oundation for t he just, civilized society that we all value and enjoy in the world today. To them I am always in deep gratitude. The ceremony w as on the A NZAC Day of Australia and New Zealand. Mr.

Speaker, I had the opportunity in my younger days to live down under in the land of kiwis and kangaroos. To Australians and New Zealanders the ANZAC commemoration is equivalent to our Canad ian V imy Ridg e event. The Gallipoli battle was a landmark of the nationhood of Australia and New Zealand. I ask the Assembly to applaud the organizing committee of the ceremony. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. 2:40 Red Deer Rebels and Medicine Hat Tigers Hockey Teams Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to rise today to recogni ze the outs tanding play of the Red Deer Rebels and the Medicine Hat Tigers in the WHL eastern conference final. As y ou ca n probably t ell by t his beautiful sweater that I’m wearing, Medicine Hat won. The Red Deer Rebels had a very successful season and were able to surprise fans and opponents alike during the playoffs when they beat the Calgary Hitmen and the first-place Moose Jaw Warriors.

Due to the outstanding work of players like Cam Ward, an incredible goaltender, Derek Meech and Dion Phaneuf, both members of Team Canada who won s ilver in world juni or hockey this year, and our three retiring 20 year olds, Justin T aylor, S hay Ste phenson, and Ladislav Kouba, and the very effective coaching of Brent S utter, Dallas Gaume, and Cam Ondrik, the Reb els gave their fans an exciting season. Congratulations and best wishes to the Medicine Hat Tigers, who will compete in their f irst WHL final in 16 years.

The torc h is passed to Medicine Hat, who will have a good cha nce of bringing back the Memorial Cup trophy to the WHL. After all, if you’re good enough to beat Red Deer, you’re good enough to win the cup. The Speaker: I am not sure if the hon. member has an exhibit, but it has not gone unnoticed by other hon. members, the envy that they would have. I suspect that if I were to ask the question, it would be unanimous that the hon. Me mber for Red Dee r-North provi de to each and every other member of the Assembly a similar exhibit t o the one that she’s wearing. It would probably be passed very, very quickly.

The hon. member might want to consider this. There are 83 members. Minus herself, that’s 82 jerseys. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. International Day of Mourning Mr. Mason: Thank you very m uch, Mr. Speak er. I rise today to recognize the International Day of Mourning. In Canada April 28 became officially recognized as the International Day of Mourning with the passa ge of Bill C-223, the Workers’ Mourning Day Act, which was introduced by New Democrat Member of Parliament Rod Murphy and which received royal assent on February 1, 1991. In Canada more than 900 workers die each year, which works out

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041020 to more than two workers every single day. In Alberta there have already been more than a dozen workplace deaths this year, which is twice the amount recorded at this time last year. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize and thank the labour m ovement in Alber ta, including the Work er’s Health Centre f or their contr ibutions to w orkplace safet y. Joint health and safety committees are a key element in the fight for a safer workplace. Unionized sites, as a result, tend to be the safer ones.

So on the International Day of Mourning I encourage all members to renew our commitment to mourn for the dead and fight for the living. Thank you. head: Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As per protocol I rise today to present a petition signed by 292 Albertans from across the province, includ ing f irefighters, police officers, and emergency health workers, petitioning this Assembly to support the passage of Bill 204. Thank you. head: Tabling R eturns and R eports The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Development. Mr.

Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I ris e today to table copies of a letter that I’ve sent to Connie Edwards, president of the Alberta Motion Pictur e Indust ries Associati on, con gratulating AMPIA and all the nominees and award winners on the resounding success of the A lberta f ilm and t elevision award s, which I was privileged to attend this weekend. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to table f or the benef it of t he Assembly a folder entitled Meet, Think, Learn and Explore.

It’s a folder put together by the University of Alberta Faculty of Extension. Today at noon I had the honour and pri vilege of partic ipating with the Facult y of Extension on the unveil ing of A -Link, A lberta’s law-related information network, as a resource for Albertans to find information about law programs and legal re sources.

The folder includes a postcard with res pect to A -Link and how people can attend it, a bookmark with res pect to A-Link and how they can find it, and a pamphlet, A lberta’s Justice Sy stem a nd You, a com pendium of useful information for Albertans about how to have and get access to legal information, legal programs, and information about how the legal syst em af fects them. I ’d like to t able fiv e copies f or the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, on behalf of my colleague the hon .

Member fo r E dmonton-Strathcona I’d lik e to table a letter from Mr. Gordon Steele addressed to him and me. The letter, dated March 26 of this year, provides an excellent analysis of why health care premiums should be eliminated. I would like to table a copy of the Can adian Box ed Beef Report dated April 19, 2004. Thi s repo rt indicates that beef packers’ margins are nearly four times higher than at this time last year. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table fo r th e benefi t of all A lbertans the Alberta governm ent aircraft passenger manifest from April 1, 2002, through to June 30, 2002. This is a comprehensive list, and I’m disappointed that further lists like this are denied the Official Opposition. Thank you. Mr. Lund: Point of order. The Speaker: The hon. Minis ter of Inf rastructure on a point of order. Point of Order Factual Accuracy Mr. Lund: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely wrong. We made it very clear in question period that these are available to them.

Yes, there is a cost of doing it, but there’s a cost to the taxpayer through Infrastructure for providing those. To say that they’re not available is absolutely false, and he should apologize for having said it. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre on the point of order. Ms Blakeman: Yes, I’m trying to answer the point of order. There was no citation so . . . Mrs. McClellan: Twenty-three (h), (i), (j). Ms Blakeman: Well, that’s not the citation that was given. The information that the staff the opposition sent over was given I repeated very succinctly in m y

preamble, and that w as that the opposition could look but could not take notes. They could not take an electronic version on computers – they were not allowed to bring computers in – and they were not allowed to copy. Those were the instructions that were given. When we asked how we were expected to get the information aside from looking at it, w e were told by an assistant to the minister that we w ould h ave to access it t hrough freedom of information. The minister seems to be indicating that somehow the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar has misled the House. That is not our understanding of it.

We are repeating the information that was given to us and to our staff by the minister’s assistant, and that is that we can look a t it but we cannot copy it, that we cannot mak e an electronic record of it, t hat to get an actual physical copy that we could walk away with or examine at some other time for detail, we would have to access it through freedom of information. Therefore, the member’s statement that he’s disappointed that we can no longer access information as he has tabled is correct. We cannot access that information in hard copy form any longer. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Deputy Government House Leader on this point. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s quite obvious that there’s a little bit of misrepresentation emanating from the opposi- tion benches on this issue. Both the Premier and the hon. Minister of Infrastructure clearly indicated that there is a process in place, and I fin d this to be a violation of the norma l rules of this House , particularly under 23(h), (i), and (j). [interjection] Will you stop for a second and shut up and listen, pleas e. Okay. Excuse me. I said

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1021 earlier 23(h), (i), and (

j) four minutes ago. Okay. Just pay attention once in a while. Now, Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the rude interruptions that just occurred from the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, let me make it very clear that that information has been and will continue to be available under the polic ies, rules , and guidelines tha t exist a nd under the co nditions and ci rcumstances that were j ust enunciated very clearly in this House by the Minister of Infrastructure. So let’s ask all hon. members on the opposition benches to please stop misleading in this way.

It’s dangerous, it’s harmful, it’s hurtful, and it sure as heck is not helpful to them or their purposes. 2:50 Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, I would say in my consideration that the point of order raised by the Minister of Infrastructure is not a point of order, the response from the Official Opposition was not a point of order, and what the Deputy Government House Leader has cited doesn’t even apply. So I would submit that there’s no point of order. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Again, in regard to this tabling that has caused such concern on the opposite benches, in the past these passenger manifests w ere available to Liberal Party re search staff. They could go to the Infrastructure department; they could make photocopies. There were no lim ita- tions, there were no restrictions put on their activities there. This has changed. Members of the general public, where w e got this information from, were free to look at the lists and to photocopy them, and that no longer applies. The big question here should be: why? Why can’t we just go in and have a look at this?

It is our job, it is our duty to hold this government accountable. There’s no point of order here in my view. Thank you. The Speaker: Well, there obviously is a difference of opinion. That is very, very clear. It’s very difficult for the chair to stand up here and get the nuance about somebody having told somebody else third- hand or second-hand and this being part of the whole scenario with respect to this.

As best as I understand, there’s great umbrage being taken with respect to certain words that were used in here which only belies the most important point: w hen it com es to Ta blings, tablings should just be tabled without comment, which wouldn’t give rise to this sort of thing. Now, having be en a form er minister of such a department that would release this information, I’m not sure what the current policy is with respect to this now, existing today, but it seems to me that if certain individuals have a cop y of the document, it must be made available.

That seems to be part of what is true in all of this, that the information is available. Number two, it n eed not be t abled i f it a lready is av ailable. Nevertheless, that seems to be the situation that does transpire i n here from time to time. So then we come right down to a difference of opinion as to how someone certainly accesses information. Now, if I understand this correctly, it is available on a computer? Ms Blakeman: No. The Speaker: It’s not available on a computer, but it’s available in hard form? Ms Blakeman: No. Mr. Lund: Exactly. The Speak er: I can’t de al with this .

We’v e got tw o diffe rent opinions here. One says, yes, it’s available on hard copy; the other one says no. The point o f the m atter is that I’m sure that by tomorrow you’ll sort this out. We won’t deal with this as a point of order. We’ll recognize that we’ll probably have another question, probably have another answer tomorrow, and maybe by the end of the week it’ll all become very, very clear to everyone just what is available, and we’ll get it first-hand from individuals in this House, not second-hand from anyone else. Okay? Thank you.

Any more tablings? head: Orders of t he Day head : Written Ques tions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. Proper notic e having been given on T hursday, April 22, i t’s my pleasure to move t hat written questions appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of written questions 48, 66, 68, 69, 71, 75, 76, 77, 78, and 79. [Motion carried] Government Hotel Expenses Q48. Ms Blakeman moved that the following question be accepted.

Who staye d at the Sher aton Suite s hot el in Calg ary on February 5, 2002, that was c harged to the governm ent through the Premier’s deputy chief of staff, James Davis? Ms Blakeman: Mr. Speaker, this is one of those instances where we get a little bit of information but not enough to clear up any misun- derstandings, and I’d like to offer the opportunity to the government to provide all of the details so that there are no misunderstandings. Thus, we’d like to get some additional d etail as outlined in the written question. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader.

Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to indicate on behalf of government that we’re prepared to accept this question. I don’t know if the date referred to is exac tly r ight; nonetheless, we’ll do our best to provide the information being sought. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre to close the debate. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much. [Written Question 48 carried] Natural Gas and Bitumen Development Q66. Mr. MacDonald m oved that the followi ng question be accepted.

When was the govern ment ma de a ware of the dispute between companie s sur rounding natural gas and bitumen development in the Athabasca-Wabasca-McMurray region? Mr. MacDon ald: Mr. Speake r, I would rea lly app reciate some detailed background information in regard to this matter. When you

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041022 consider the whole issue of natural gas over bitumen and some of the implications of further development in the Fort McMurray region, the number of leases that are going to be affected by this dispute, the number of companies that are affected by this dispute, it would be very important to learn when the government was made aware of this dispute.

Certainly, this hon. member is aware of discussions in the past between government officials and the industry in regard to gas over bitumen, but when we’re looking at possibly enhanced compensation programs for those companies that are going to be adversely affected by this, this is a very important qu estion, a nd I hope that the Department of Energy through the government provides us with that information. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With respect to Written Question 66 I’m pleased to indicate on behalf of the hon.

Minister of Energy that we are prepared to accept Written Question 66. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar to cl ose the debate. Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I must say at this time that I would like to publicly express my gratitude for that information, and I look forward to receiving it and reading it. Thank you. [Written Question 66 carried] Utilities Consumer Advocate Q68. Mr. MacDonald m oved that the followi ng question be accepted. What is the proc edure followed by the Uti lities Consumer Advocate in order to track and resolve utilities consumers’ complaints and/or problems? Mr.

MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, again, anything that we can do to shed light on the office of the Utilities Consumer Advocate would be in the best interests of consumers. Certainly, in light of the transfer of the retail assets of ATCO to Direct Energy and the finalization of that sale – the final date, I believe, is the 4th of May of this year – it’s important that we know what procedure is followed. There have bee n many complaints t o date to the department. I would have to say that there have to be close to 900 at the moment.

Is there a d ifferent procedure for a complaint in regard to a gas billing issue than there is f or a com plaint about e lectricity billing issues? Now, hopefully, t he transfer of assets is not going to mea n an increase in the workload of the Utilities Consumer Advocate, but we will have to wait a nd we will have to see. I would really be inter- ested and I would be grate ful if w e cou ld get a detailed written explanation as to: what is the procedure followed by the Utilities Consumer Advocate to track and to resolve utilities consumer complaints and problems? Thank you. 3:00 The Speaker: The hon.

Minister of Government Services. Mr. Coutts: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My only comment will be to respond and indicate that the government is willing to accept Written Question 68. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar to close the debate. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Mr. Spe aker, I will be brief. I w ill again look forward to recei ving th at inform ation and rea ding it and, hopefully, sharing it with anyone that is interested. I would express my gratitude to the Department of Government Services for provid- ing it. [Written Question 68 carried] Royalty Reduction Programs Q69. Mr.

MacDonald m oved that the followi ng question be accepted. What measures has t he Ministry of Energy taken to imple- ment the Auditor General’s recommendation contained in his 2002-2003 annual report to assess whether royalty reduction programs are achieving their intended objectives? Mr. MacDonald: Now, again, this is very, ve ry im portant. We know that there have bee n concerns e xpressed in many quarte rs regarding our royalty reduction programs.

Certainly, there are many people from across the province who have expressed concern to this hon. member that perhaps we’re not getting as much as we should in royalties in this province. We look at the last time we had a good look at royalty programs. It was back, I believe, as the Con servatives sa y, in a di fferent administration, the former government of Premier Getty, when Mr. Orman, I believe, was Minister of Energy. There was an extensive discussion paper, and t here wa s signif icant chang e to how the royalties were to be calculated in this province.

A lot has happened in the global energy market since, the most significant, of course, being the dramatic increase in the price globally for crude oil a nd here in North America for natural gas. The price is what our w hole roya lty str ucture is ba sed on. Specifically with natural gas, we have three different tiers and many other little ag reements in regard to co nventional oil, and then we have the stag es of roy alty – I don’t want to use th e word “take” because the citi zens own the resource – share and how that is calculated.

Ther e are many, many issues surrounding roy alty calculations and royalty reduction program s. Are the se roy alty reduction programs achieving their intended objectives? The Audi tor General had some questions. With many of these royalty reduction programs citizens and members of this Assembly have no idea what exactly is being reduced. What are the amounts being reduced? The only amount we see in the budget is the net amount of royalty. What’s been taken off that? We have no idea. These royalty reductions are net. No one seems to know how much and to whom?

I think this i s very important , specifically in l ight o f what the Auditor General has said. Hopefully, we can receive this informa- tion as well. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: On Written Question 69 I nee d t o indicate on behalf of the hon. Minist er of Ene rgy that this questi on is being recommended for rejection. The Speaker: The hon. Mem ber for Edm onton-Gold Ba r to conclude the debate. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, M r. Sp eaker. Again, I am disap-

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1023 pointed to hear the news that Written Question 69 has been rejected. For all the same reasons that I expressed in my opening remarks in regard to Writte n Question 69, I think this is very, very important. If we are going to ha ve an open a nd transparent and account able government, we should be able to receive this information. We need to know if it’s $1,000, if it’s $10,000, if it’s $100,000, or if it’s $2 million that one can receive in royalty reduction programs. If there’s a cap on how much one can receive, tell us what the cap is.

I can’t for the life of m e understand w hy we can’t hav e this information, when y ou conside r t hat we rely in this province so much on the collection of resource royalty for our prosperity and our government spending. We need to know the structure of our royalty calculations and our royalty reduction programs if we are to plan to set aside a lot of money now that w e have the debt under control thanks to the Alberta Liberals. Now that we have the debt under control and almost completely eliminated . . . Mr. Magnus: Thanks to the Alberta Liberals? Mr. MacDonald: You bet.

It was our policy in ’93, hon. member, and imitation is a fine form of flattery. When we have the need to set aside billions of dollars, because at some point in the f uture a gov ernment is not goi ng to have the luxury of this large amount of resource royalty, we should consider putting substantial amounts of the current money that’s generated from resource royalty away for future generations, not for our own election purposes but for future generations. That’s why I’m very, very disappointed that this written question has been rejected. Thank you. [Written Question 69 lost] Natural Gas Rebate Program Q71. Mr.

MacDonald m oved that the followi ng question be accepted. How much money in total was distributed to utility customers in February 2004 through the government’s natural gas rebate program? Mr. MacDonald: It would be good information for consumers and certainly members of the Official Opposition to have. These natural gas rebate programs can’t be centred or focused around one specific party’s re-election campaign. That has been the case, in the view of some Albert ans, with p ast na tural gas re bate p rograms.

Sur ely, someone on that side of the House knows down to the penny – I would be surprised if they didn’t – how much money in total was distributed to utility customers in February 2004, because we have to plan for the future. Now, there are two different types of gas rebate programs. There’s one for the residential customers, and there’s also one for people in the rural part s of the pr ovince, which may have different needs. They may demand large amounts of natural gas at different times of the year, whe ther it’s for grain dry ing or wha tever purpos e, Mr. Speaker.

Specifically for February, let’s see how much money was spent. February being one of the coldest months of the year, residential users are certainly going to be looking at a natural gas rebate next February, which probably will be just before the provincial election. I’m not to say – the hon. Minister of Infrastructure would certainly know a lot better than I – when the next provincial election is going to be, but we have to be prepared.

This information would not only help the consumers but help the Official Opposition and certainly would help the budgeting process so that we’ll know how much precisely is being spent in one of the coldest months of the winter. Thank you. 3:10 The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure. Mr. Lund : Thank y ou Mr. S peaker. If the mem ber had been listening and looking, he would have known that this is a three-year program, so if he can tie that in with some kind of an election, hop to it. Mr.

Speaker, in k eeping with this gov ernment’s openness and accountability, we will be only too happy to provide this information to the member at no cost because it doesn’t cost the taxpayers a lot of money to compile and copy and produce it. So we will accept this one. [Written Question 71 carried] Casino Construction Q75. Dr. Massey moved on behalf of Ms Blake man that th e following question be accepted.

Which groups, companies, and stakeholders recommended to the gove rnment t hat fina l ap proval a uthority f or casino construction is best left with a centralized bureaucracy rather than with local communities? Mrs. McClellan : Mr. Speake r, on behalf of the hon. m inister I would be pleased to respond to this written question. The govern- ment’s role with regard to horse racing and Horse Racing Alberta is to ensure accountability in relation to the funds that are received by Horse Racing Alberta through the racing industry renewal initiative.

It’s up to Horse Racing Alberta to determine how best to spend those monies that th ey have earned through the racing industry renewal initiative. The objectives, of course, are the revitalization of the horse racing industry in the province and the continued employment . . . The Speaker: Hon. Deputy Premier, if I understand, we’re dealing with Written Question 75. Mrs. McClellan: Yes, and I’m getting to it. The Speaker: Okay. It just sa ys, “Casino construction.” I don’t know where horse r acing com es into this. Sorry, but we’re on Written Question 75. Mrs. McClellan: Sorry about that.

Anyway, racin g enter tainment centres are a pa rt of this , Mr. Speaker. I should have been more explicit, because I realize that the nomenclature isn’t known to everyone, but that’s a review. Local communities do make those decisions. At any rate, Mr. Speaker, the governme nt is rejecting Written Question 75 with regret. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods to close the debate. Dr. Massey: Yes. Thank you. Well, I too r egret, as the minister does, that the government won’t make the information available. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Written Question 75 lost]

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041024 Premier’s Deputy Chief of Staff Dinner Q76. Ms Carlson m oved on behal f of Ms Blakem an that the following question be accepted. Who attended the dinner with the Premier’s deputy chief of staff, Jame s Davis , on January 12, 2002, at Il Pas ticcio Trattoria restaurant in Edmonton that cost $395.53? Ms Carlson: I would urge the government to accept this in the spirit of openness and accountability. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With respect to Written Question 76 on the Order Paper I need to respond that the govern- ment of Alberta needs to reject this question, and I want to indicate briefly a few reasons why. To begin with, I think all members here would know, because it has been said in this H ouse on nume rous occasions, that there are cir cumstances and oc casions w hen the names of individuals attending various functions with elected members and/or with senior staff m embers are not something that become open and able to be given out publicly, and there are reasons for that.

In this particular instance we have the deputy chief of staff at the time who likely met with a number of individuals for a busines s- related dinner. In respecting the confidence of what may or may not have been d iscussed at that dinner, I think it’s important to draw present individuals’ attention to t he Freedom of Infor mation and Protection of Privacy Act. It’s a very excellent read, and I would encourage all members to in fact read it, learn it, and become better acquainted with it. In particular, division 3, which talks about third- party intervent ion, is an inte resting r ead, obviousl y.

So, too, i s another

section w hich I wil l refer to as sec tion 17(4), spec ifically (e.1) and g(

i) and (ii), wherein it reads: A disclosure of personal information is presumed to be an unreason- able invasion of a third party’s personal privacy if . . . (e.1) the personal information consists of an individual’s bank account information or credit card information . . . (

g) the personal information consists of the third party’s name when (

i) it appears with other personal information about the third party, or (ii) the disclosure of the name itself wou ld reve al per- sonal information about the third party, and it goes on. There are occa sions, Mr. Speaker, when meetings – dinner meetings, business meetings, whatever have you – are necessary to perform on behalf of the government, and that applies right across the board. I should also indicate that these meetings – busi ness or dinner meetings or luncheons or breakfasts or whatever they might be – don’t just occur Monday through Friday. They frequently occur on Saturdays and Sunday s.

In other w ords, the busine ss of the government of Alberta goes on literally seven days a week, virtually 365 days a year, and that’s important to keep in mind. The final point I just want to mention, going back to my references to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, is that I know there was an all-party committee that addressed this matter prior to this particular act being ushered in and through the Legisla- tive Assembly.

As I recall, there were members from all parties in the House who sat on that who helped desi gn the report, and my information and my recollection going back a year or so ag o – I think it was 2003 – is that, i n fact, the FOIP Ac t was l argely predicated on that all-party committee’s report. So on that b asis – I’m sorry, hon. members – this question will have to be rejected as worded. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie to close the debate. Ms Carlson: Well, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the minister we didn’t ask for minutes of the meeting or topics under discussion.

We simply asked f or who was in attendance. In the abse nce of a lobbyist registration act in this province, which is very unfortunate, this government does not like to disclose who is lobbying them and who isn’t, and this is the only venue in which we can find out this information or could at least attempt to find out this information on behalf of Albertans.

The minister spent a great deal of time talking about the all-party FOIP review committee, which I happene d to sit on and in which case I voted a gainst very man y of the re commendations tha t the government ended up passing because of their large majority. Some of those included pieces that he was speaking to specifically here. I would suggest that anyone who is prepared to meet with and lobby the governm ent should not be opposed to havi ng thei r name disclosed as such a person.

We’re not asking for the spec ifics of exactly what it is that they’re talking about in those meetings, simply that if taxp ayer dollars ar e being pa id out for m eals, the n the taxpayer has a right to know who in fact was in attendance. [Written Question 76 lost] 3:20 Private Vocational Schools Q77. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted.

For the fiscal year s 2001-02, 2002-03, and f or the period beginning April 1, 2003, and ended March 15, 2004, what was the total amount of funding that each private vocational school re ceived from any prog ram a dministered by the Ministry of Lea rning either paid to a private vocational school directly or paid to individual students for the purpose of attending a private vocational school? Dr. Pannu: Brief comments, Mr. Speaker. As a way of rationale and background there are under 40 private i nstitutions lice nsed by Alberta Learnin g t o offer vocational training to adult Albertans.

While, for the most part, these schools receive no direct government assistance, indi rectly they rec eive b oth s tudent lo an pr ograms administered by the Minister of Learning as well as large amounts of indirect funding throug h various pr ograms adminis tered by the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. The New D emocrat opposition fr equently receiv es com plaints about the quality of instruction offered at these government-licensed private vocational schools. W e also re ceive frequent complaints about how these schools treat students attending them.

The informa- tion being sought through Written Question 77 is intended to ensure that Albertans are aware of ex actly how much direct and indirect funding is received by each of the more than 140 licensed vocational schools. I urge the acceptance of Written Question 77. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Learning. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We are willing to accept this written question with the following amendments, and I will say that it has been shared with the mover of the motion prior to 11 o’clock today.

I would like to make the following amendments by striking out “and for the period between April 1, 2003, and ended March 15, 2004” and substituting “2003-04” and by adding “on a full-time basis” after “attending a private vocational school.” Quite simply, Mr. Speaker, the reason for substituting ’03-04 is

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1025 that that is our f iscal y ear. It doe sn’t make much se nse to do everything in the fis cal year except two w eeks. I t would put my department through a considerable amount of work, and realistically I don’t believe it would give them any extra information. So what we would suggest is that it was for ’03-04, which would be the fiscal year ’03-04, as well. We are also adding “on a full-time basis” following “attending a private vocational school,” as those are the students that we fund.

So the amended written question would now read: For the fiscal years 2001-02, 2002-03, 2003-04 what was the total amount of funding that each private vocational school received from any program administered by the Ministry of Learning either paid to a private vocational school directly or paid to individual students for the purpose of attending a p rivate vocational school on a full- time basis? I would therefore move the amended written question. Speaker’s Ruling Amendment to Written Question The Speaker: Just for clarification.

The hon. minister added one additional word to the document that was circulated to hon. mem- bers. Hon. members, if you take a look at the amendment to Written Question 77 that has been circulated, what was added by the minister in terms of the oral overview just given was the word “individual” that would have to be added af ter the word “ to” at the end of the third line. That’s the way it reads on the Order Paper, so I bel ieve there’s probably just a typing difficulty.

It’s im portant, however, because sometimes if one says, “It will not b e released,” and you forget the word “not,” it changes the intent entirely. In thi s case we have an am endment, and there’s debate on the amendment now. Debate Continued Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank the minister for sharing the proposed amendment with me in advance. I certainly appreciate the part of the am endment t hat will make availa ble information for the entire 2003-2004 fiscal year. I just w ant to seek some clarification on the se cond part of the amendment.

Is it the case that the Mi nistry of Learning funds at these institutions onl y full-time students? If that is the cas e, that only full-time students are funded, then clearly the amendment is in order and I have no objection to it. However, if part-time students are also funded, then I’d be disappointed because the information provided would be inc omplete, and Alber tans would certainly appreciate having complete information. The Speaker: Okay. We have a debate o n the amendmen t. If I recognize the hon. Minister of Learning on the amendment, that will close this

section on the amendment. Nobody else? The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, what the hon. member has ask ed me – there are part-time students t hat are enrolled in our private vocational schools. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for us to find that. Full-time students are much easier for us to do in that we can identify them purely on a full-time basis. By doing it on a part-time basis, the part-time students could be at other institutions as we ll, so the inf ormation would not be accurate.

Therefore, I have added in “full-time” students to clarify what information we have available and will make available to the hon. member. [Motion on amendment carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona to close the debate. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I said, I a ppreciate very much the minister’s readiness to share full information, full in the sense of including part of fiscal 2003-2004 which wasn’t part of the original written question request, but I am disappointed with respect to the minister suggesting that the de partment has difficulty main- taining or collecting or putting together information with respect to the funding of students who take their program on a part-time basis, although they are funded by the m inister. So I express my disap - pointment with respect to the incompleteness of the information that I’ll be rece iving.

Nevertheless, having half a loaf I guess is better than having none. With those remarks I will sit down. [Written Question 77 as amended carried] Private Vocational Schools Q78. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted. For the fisc al years 2001-02, 2002-03, a nd for the period beginning April 1, 2003, and ended March 15, 2004, what was the job placement rate six months after program comple- tion for stude nts attending each pr ivate vocat ional school licensed to operate in Alberta? Dr. Pannu: Mr. Speake r, brief comments on the reas on for the written question.

It is important that Albertans know whether value for money is being achieved for the investment of public dollars to support learners attending provincially licensed private vocational schools. One of the best indicators of the effective ness of thes e schools, which operate as profit-making commercial businesses, is their job placement rates after students a ttending those schools complete their programs.

This written question is specifical ly t o question job placement rates for each of the p rivate vocational schools from both the Ministr y of L earning a nd the Mini stry of Human Resources and Employment. 3:30 I’m aw are that both of t hese m inistries use slight ly dif ferent methodologies for tracking job placement rates from these schools, and I emphasize that this written question seeks information on job placement rates from both ministries. I understand that job place- ment rate information collected by the Ministry of Learning is based on information reported by the private vocational schools themselves

whereas t he inform ation collec ted by H uman Re sources a nd Employment is based on interviews with students six months after program completion. Again, that is why it’s important that responses be received from both ministries. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Learning. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We will accept this question with the following amendments. Again, I will state that it was circulated to my opposition colleague prior to 11 o’clock this morning as per Standing Orders. Mr. Speaker, I’ll seek your advice on this.

I do want to alter the typed amendment that is before us – and I would seek your advice on how to do this – by striking out the “‘2002-03, and for the period beginning April 1, 2003, and ended March 14, 2004’ and substitut- ing” and adding “’02-03, and ’03-04.” Mr. Speaker, I would ask your indulgence on specifically how to do that. I feel that that’s more in line with what the hon. member has

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041026 asked me. The sam e arguments hold for what I said on the last question about March 14 and keeping it as the fiscal ’03-04 year and, actually, what the hon. member just stated about the six months after.

And striking out “what was the job placement rate six months after program completion for students attending each private vocational school licensed to operate in Alberta” and substituting “what were the job place ment r ates att ributable to e ach institut ion currently offering programs licensed under the Private Vocat ional Schools Act.” As the hon. member has state d, we do not collect that information in the type of format that the hon. member has asked for.

The Speaker: Hon. minister, before we get that explanation, just please read, then, to this Assembly exactly what the amended written question would now read. All hon. mem bers have a text. If I understand the minister correctly, then what the minister is saying – let me just try this. The minister says: that for the fiscal years 2001- 2002, 2002-2003, and 2003-2004, what were the job . . . and going on. So what the minister is basically saying is the document in text that we’d be dealing with now that would become the official one would have added “2003-2004.” Okay. That’s the clarification that’s important.

All hon. members have that. Dr. Oberg: That’s absolutely correct, Mr. Speaker, and if I can, I will read the complete amended written question as follows: For the fiscal years 2001-02, 2002-03, and ’03-04 what were the job placement rates attribut able to each instituti on currently offering programs licensed under the Private Vocational Schools Act? I would move the amended Written Question 78. Thank you. The Speaker: Is it cle ar to the hon. m ember what has just tran- spired? Dr. Pannu: Yes. The Speaker: Okay. Dr. Pannu: I think it is, Mr. Speaker.

I stand to be corrected if my understanding is somewhat incomplete. As I understand now, the m inister in f act has i ncluded the f ull fiscal 2003-2004 information. Right? I thank the minister for doing just that, and I l ook forward to receiving the information from his ministry.

I had also of course requested in my comm ents to receive information for the same perio d to the sa me question fr om t he Minister of Human Resources and Employment as to whether the job placement data based on student interviews six months after program completion collected by the ministry would be provided in response to Written Question 78, and I’m still awaiting some sort of response from the hon. minister in this regard. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Motion on amendment carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona to close the debate. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly want to thank the Minister of Learning for his co-operation in getting to the House the requested information. I would cer tainly urge the Minister of Human Resources and Employment to respond in a similar way to the request that I made, because information from his office is just as important as the information that I now have been prom ised I would be receiving from the Minister of Learning. Thank you. [Written Question 78 as amended carried] The Speaker: Now, just a clarification for everybody, hon. mem- bers.

Please note that wha t we jus t di d in here did not have the initials of Parl iamentary Counsel. Our rules suggest that this is a requirement, but I will exercise and use my authority under Standing Order 2 to override that, but this will not come back as a precedent in the future. Okay? Thank you. Private Vocational Schools Q79. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted.

For t he fiscal years 2001-02, 2002-03, and for the pe riod beginning April 1, 2003, and ended Mar ch 15, 2004, what was the total amount of funding that each private vocational school receiv ed from any pro gram a dministered by the Ministry of Human Resources and Employment either paid to a school dir ectly or paid to in dividual stude nts for the purpose of attending a private vocational school? Dr. Pannu: Mr.

Speaker, the reason for this question, the b ack- ground to it, is that the Ministry of Human Resources and Employ- ment provide s hundreds of millions of dollars per year to support adult vocational training and upgrading. Much of thi s funding supports students at tending priv ate voca tional schools . In fact, funding criteria for many of the ministry’s programs – for example, in most cases the ministry only supports tra ining programs of one year or less in duration – seem designed to direct adult learners to private vocational schools rather than public institutions like NAIT, SAIT, or NorQuest College.

As a basic measure of accountability Albertans have the right to know what amounts of funding went from the public purse to these schools. I urge the acceptance of Written Question 79. Mr. Dunford: We’ll accept. Dr. Pannu: I want to thank the minister for his readiness to provide the information to the House. I look forward to receiving it at the appropriate time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Written Question 79 carried] head: Motions for Retur ns The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Proper notice having been served on Thursday, April 22, it is my pleasure to move that motions for returns appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of motions for returns 24 through 31, 34 through 42, 44 through 49, 52, 53, 55 through 62, 64, 66, 69 through 73, 75, 78 through 83, 88 through 105, 108 through 123, 128, 134 through 143, 146 through 160, 162, 164 through 168, 174 through 180, 183 through 189, 197, 200 through 205. [Motion carried]

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1027 3:40 Business Credit Card Statements for Government Services Department M24. Mr. MacDonald m oved that an o rder of the Assembly do issue for a return showing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the deputy minister, all assistant deputy ministers, executive directors, directors, branch hea ds, managers, and unit leader s for the Department of Government Services. [Mr. Tannas in the chair] Mr.

MacDonald: Certainly, in the interest of being open, transpar- ent, and accountable to the taxpayers, I can’t see why we would not accept this motion for a return. In light of some of the questions surrounding government expenditures, I think that this is reasonable. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to indicate to the hon. member an d to a ll members of th e House that we’re recom- mending that Motion for a Return 24 be accepted with amendments, and I would like to inform the House that the amendmen ts w ere shared with our opposition colleag ue prior to 11 a.m. today as per normal procedure. I hope the amendment has been circulated and all members have a copy of it. I understand that is the case. I would like to just outline and move what the amendment would be should it succeed.

We are simply making similar amendments to what we’ve discussed in this House before by way of grouping and categorizing, which will enormously speed things up and at the same time will also allow the provision of whatever information is able to be provided under the policies and procedures established and also with respect to upholding the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, as I enunciated earlier this afternoon. In t he spirit of that partic ular gesture, Mr.

Spe aker, the newly amended Motion 24 would read as follows: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a re turn sh owing a statement of all credit card expenses for the fiscal year 2002-2003 incurred by al l deput y mini sters, all assist ant deputy minis ters, executive directors, d irectors, b ranch he ads, mana gers, and unit leaders in aggregate for each government department categorized by accommodation, travel, hosting, and miscellaneous expenses. Mr. Speaker, that should sum up the gist of our acceptance as outlined and for the purposes indicated earlier. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar on the proposed amendment. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is in regard to the am endment, and for th e record I woul d like to exp ress my gratitude to the hon. m inister for providing t his information thi s morning, at 9:47 a.m. to be precise. I appreciate it. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands on the amendment. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I wonder i f the minister would take a question in connection with this amendment. The Deputy Speaker: If he takes a question, that ends the debate. Mr. Mason: Oh. All right.

The Deputy Speaker: You can offer the question, and when the minister speaks, then you might get an answer. Mr. Mason: Yes. Maybe he would be so gracious as to respond to this question when he concludes. The concern that I have with respect to this amendment is that if there were a few expenses which were out of order – that is, one or two by someone in a very senior position that was far too extrava- gant – would th e eff ect of t his be to blend it all in so that you couldn’t tell what individual expenses were there?

O f course, by spreading it over all of the administration, including branch heads, managers, unit leaders, and so on, you greatly increase the number of people who are aggregated in this num ber. It could look ver y reasonable because you would spread these expenses over a lot of people, so if you averaged the expenses p er person, they would be very small. I am reminded, Mr. Speaker, of the story of the man who drowned crossing a lake that was only on average one foot deep. I think this is the problem with the aggregation.

I guess my question is: if there were particular expenses that were very expensive which accrued to just one or two individuals, would this amendmen t allow those expenses to be reported, or would they just be averaged in with the entire department? The Deputy Speaker: There being no further debate, then, to close debate on the amendment. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you. I’m pleased to rise to close debate on the amendment and, in doing so, perhaps to comment briefly on the hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands’ question.

He’s asking whether this partic ular amendment would somehow obfuscate or otherwise, perhaps, not present accurately or in some way cover up extravagant expense s. T he s hort answ er, Mr. Spea ker, and t he honest answer is no. In no way would this occur. I think it nee ds to be m entioned for everyone’s pleasure, Mr. Speaker, that all of these expense accounts are carefully and thoroughly reviewed not only by the internal processes but are also subject to the very thorough scrutinous eye of the Auditor General.

They would certainly have been identified if any of those kinds of extravagant expenditures might have occurred. This amendment is in no way an attempt to do anything that might be of concern to the hon. member, but I do thank him for having raised it. That having been said, I would seek the support of all members for the amendment to this Motion for a Return 24 as presented. [Motion on amendment carried] The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar to conclude debate. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I hav e reservations about this, but I w ill have t o wait a nd see.

Hopef ully, I w ill be proven wrong. A thank you is I guess in orde r, and we’ll wait and see what information we do get. Thank you. [Motion for a Return 24 as amended carried] 3:50 Business Credit Card Statements for Human Resources and Employment Department M25. Dr. Massey move d on behalf of Mr. MacDonald that a n order of the Assembly do iss ue fo r a r eturn show ing all

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041028 monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the deputy minister, all assistant deputy ministers, executi ve direc tors, direc tors, branch heads, managers, and unit l eaders for the Department of Huma n Resources and Employment. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources and Employment. Mr. Dunford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Reject. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you. Just briefly following up on the hon. Minister for Human Resources and Employment.

I will support his recommendation, obviously, to reject Motion for a Return 25 based on the discussion we just had on Motion for a Return 24, where this particular issue was dealt with. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker. I respectfully ask that he give us more of an explanation than that. Mr. Zwozdesky: Are we into debate at this point? The Deputy Speaker: No, we’re not. We ’re actually closing the debate. It can’t come back. Anyway, the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods on behalf of the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar has moved Motion for a Return 25. All those in support of this motion, please say aye. Some Hon. Members: Aye. The Deputy Speaker: Those opposed, please say no. Some Hon. Members: No. The Deputy Speaker: The motion is defeated. Ms Carlson: He didn’t close debate. The Deputy Speaker: He didn’t close debate. Okay. We’ll disregard that vote, and wax eloquent, hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. That’s what I thought I was signalling to you before, but anyway, let us close debate. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was a little confused when both the minister rejected it and the Deputy Governm ent House Leader also stood up a nd did the sam e thing, so there was a litt le confusion. I think it’s unfortunate, to say the least, Mr. Speaker. The kind of information that we’re seeking is information that should be readily available to tax payers in th is province. No matter h ow it’s con- strued, it is an attempt to keep that information from the public, so I think it’s unfortunate that this is not being accepted. [Motion for a Return 25 lost] Business Credit Card Statements for Community Development Minister’s Office M26.

Ms Carlson moved on behalf of Ms Blakeman that an order of the Assembly do issue f or a return s howing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the Min ister of Community Development and the minister’s executive assistant. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanted to clarify briefly before I talk to Motion for a Return 26, which we intend to accept with amendments, that the reason for rejecting 25 was only because it’s already covered in 24. That’s why I rose at the end of the hon.

Minister of Human Resource and Employment’s comments. We may see a similar pattern develop here shortly if the amendments before us on 26 are a ccepted. I thin k there was just a little bit of chatter goi ng o n at the time, and some me mbers may have been misdirected in their listening temporarily. With respect to Motion for a R eturn 26, Mr. Spea ker, I’m recommending acceptance with amendments. I’m pleased to inform the hon. member and the other colleagues that our opposition were informed of this particular amendment prior to 11 this morning as per procedures.

I understand that the amendment has been circulated to all members present. I just want to outline briefly that anyone looking at the Order Paper would notice that there are a num ber of ra ther identi cally worded motions for returns similar to 26 where the only difference might be the name of t he particul ar minis try in re spect to the information being sou ght.

If we’re success ful in approv ing the amendment – and I hope we will be – to 26, that will certainly speed things up a great deal in this House by being able to refer to 26 and say: well, this has already been opened up now , and all Executive Council members and their assistants will provide the information that’s being requested. In the fina l analysis, Mr.

Speak er, I’m recommending that we accept Motion for a Return 26 with the following amendment so that the amended motion would read as follows: That an orde r of t he As sembly do i ssue f or a r eturn s howing a statement of all credit card expenses for the fiscal year 2002-2003 incurred by me mbers of E xecutive Council and their executive assistants broken down by department and categorized by accom- modation, travel, hosting, and miscellaneous expenses. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Deputy Speaker: On the amendment. The hon. Mem ber for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My colleague who put this motion on the Order Paper has some concerns. Those concerns are particularly about the monthly breakdown being lost now. Specifi- cally, what else may have shown up on a government card that will not in this particular breakdown that we’re going to get? If those questions could b e answered, th en we’ll be in suppor t of this amendment. [Motion on amendment carried] Ms Carlson: Mr. Speaker, I’m unclear as to why my questions can’t be answered on this particular amendment and the motion. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozde sky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

Thank you, hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. I don’t know if the hon. Member for Edmon ton-Ellerslie has had a c hance to hav e as in-de pth a briefing perhaps as she might have liked from her House leader, but we did have about an hour and 40-minute disc ussion on how this

April 26, 2004 Alberta Hansard 1029 particular business would be approached. I think it was generally speaking agreed to, albeit with reluctance, I have to add, on the part of the Opposition House Leader, that we would try and provide whatever information we cou ld under the grou pings that we have available. Then if there w as additional information that m ight be needed, that might be pursued on a one- off basis or it m ight be pursued through FOIP or whatever. But we have the information that can be readied in the fashion as outlined here and as organized here, so that’s the reason for the grouping.

The second part of the issue is with respect to grouping together all members of Executive Council who will report individually on this. For purposes of speeding up the process in the House, rather than dealing with each ministry one by one by one by one for the identical question, we would simply amend the first one in the series, and it would in the spirit of co-operation apply e qually to all the others that are on the Order Pap er. So there is no change w ith respect to t his particular point, from that point of view at least.

I hope that clarifies something for now. [Motion for a Return 26 as amended carried] 4:00 Business Credit Card Statements for Justice and Attorney General Minister’s Office M27. Ms Carlson moved on behalf of Ms Blakeman that an order of the Assembly do issue f or a return s howing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General and the minister’s executive assistant. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Precisely now we have the amended Motion for a Return 26, which will include all members of Executive Council for the question being put or a s near to it as you can read. In this case, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General and that particular minister’s executive assistant would be covered under the amended Motion for a Return 26, so on that basis I would recommend that Motion for a Return 27 be now rejected. [Motion for a Return 27 lost] Business Credit Card Statements for Seniors Minister’s Office M28.

Ms Carlson moved on behalf of Ms Blakeman that an order of the Assembly do issue f or a return s howing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the Minister of Seniors and the minister’s executive assistant. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, and thank you to the Member for Edm onton-Ellerslie. Mo tion for a Re turn 28 agai n comes under the sa me spirit of co-ope ration that w e saw with the amended Motion for a Return 26 a few minutes ago.

In the case of Motion for a Return 28 it’s the same information being requested, but in thi s instance it’s from the Ministry of Seniors and f rom the minister’s executive assistant in that department. That having been said, with the amen ded Motio n for a Re turn 26 all m embers of Executive Council and all their executive assistants are now covered, so there is a recommendation that I would like to put forward on that basis: reject Motion for a Return 28 before us now. [Motion for a Return 28 lost] Business Credit Card Statements for Solicitor General Minister’s Office M29.

Ms Carlson moved on behalf of Ms Blakeman that an order of the Assembly do issue for a r eturn showing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the Solici tor General and the Solicitor General’s executive assistant. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you again to the Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie on beh alf of the other hon. member for rais ing Motion f or a Return 29.

The sam e basic explanation applies here, the only difference being that under Motion for a Return 29 the department from whom the information is being sought is the Solicitor General and the Solicitor General’s executive assistant. As I indicated earlier, Motion for a Return 26 will serve the purpose b ecause all members of E xecutive Council and their executive assi stants wi ll be reporti ng the inf ormation unde r the amended motion.

On that basis, I would recommend that we are able to reject Motion for a Return 29, which is before us now. [Motion for a Return 29 lost] Business Credit Card Statements for Seniors Department Staff M30. Ms Carlson moved on behalf of Ms Blakeman that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return s howing all monthly business credit card statements for the fiscal year 2002-2003 issued to the deputy minister, all assistant deputy ministers, executive directors, directors, branch heads, managers, and unit leaders for the Department of Seniors. The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr.

Zwozde sky: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er, and thank s, hon. member, for the question. Motion for a Return 30. I would like to apply the same explanation here as I did to Motion for a Return 26. However, in this particular case the reference needs to go ba ck to Motion for a Return 24, where, in fact, we already have approved a motion as amended, and that would include “all deputy ministers, all assistant dep uty ministers, executive directors, directors, branch heads, managers, and unit leaders.” So what w e have i n Motion for a Return 30, Mr.

Sp eaker, is simply the citin g of one p articular department, which in this case happens to be the De partment of Seniors. However, Motion for a Return 24 as amended simply states that all deputy ministers and so on working with gov ernment will be reporting the information as presented in the amendment, and therefore Motion for a Return 30 can be rejec ted since the information will be p rovided under the aforementioned Motion for a Return 24 as amended. Thank you. [Motion for a Return 30 lost] Breakdown of Government Purchases M31. Dr. Massey moved on behalf of Mr.

MacDonald that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing a breakdown by ministry of the to tal number and total co st of items that were purchased dur ing the 2 002-2003 fisca l yea r in the following categories: televisions, flatware, wineglasses, beer glasses, golf balls, go lf tees, alcoholic beverages, jams, jellies, preserves, games, and toys.

Alberta Hansard April 26, 20041030 Mrs. McClellan: We’re going to