Manitoba Hansard — 30 October 2007 (Sitting 28B, 39th Legislature, 1st Session)

39-1-28b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIX No. 28B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 30, 2007

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1769 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 30, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Neepawa, Minnedosa and Areas–Local Hospitals Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Residents of Neepawa, Minnedosa, and the surrounding area are concerned about the long-term viability of their respective local hospitals.

Impending retirements, physician shortages, and the closure of many other rural emergency rooms have caused residents to fear that their health-care facilities may also face closure in the future. Local physicians and many residents have expressed their support for a proposed regional health centre to service both communities. It is believed that a new regional health centre would help secure and maintain physicians and would therefore better serv e the health care of the region.

The success of other regi onal hospitals, such as Boundary Trails Health Centre, has set the precedent for the viability and success of a similar health centre for the Neepawa and Minnedosa area. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald), to consider the feasibility of a joint health centre, including an emergency room, to service Neepawa and Minnedosa and the surrounding area.

To urge the Minister of Health to consider sustaining health-care services in this area by working with local physicians and the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority on this initiative. This is signed by Marcel Oswald, Mary Kulback, Winnie Anderson and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Dividing of Trans-Canada Highway Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: The seven-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway passing through Headingley is an extremely busy stretch of road, averaging 18,000 vehicles daily. This

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is one of the few remaining stretches of undivided highway in Manitoba, and it has seen more than 100 accidents in the last two years, some of them fatal. Manitoba's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation told a Winnipeg radio station on October 16, 2007, that when it comes to highways' projects the provincial government has a flexible response program, and we have a couple of opportunities to advance these projects in our five-year plan.

In the interests of protecting motorist safety, it is crucial that the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is completed as soon as possible. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider making the completion of the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley in 2008 an urgent provincial government priority.

To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider evaluating whether any other steps can be taken to improve motorist safety while the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is being completed. This is signed by John Bowman, Ross Carnahan, Valerie Connolly and many, many others, Mr. Speaker.

1770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 Retired Teachers' Cost of Living Adjustment Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Since 1977, Manitoba teachers have made contributions to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Pension Adjustment Account, PAA, to finance a Cost of Living Adjustment, or COLA, to their base pension once they retire.

Despite this significant funding, 11,000 retired teachers and 15,000 active teachers currently find themselves facing the future with little hope of a meaningful COLA. For 2007, a COLA of only 0.63 percent was paid to retired teachers. The COLA paid in recent years has eroded the purchasing power of teachers' pension dollars. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider adequate funding for the PAA on a long-term basis to ensure that the current retired teachers, as well as all future retirees, receive a fair COLA.

This is signed by Dan Gregovski, Alayne Ferley, Ed Harvie and many, many other Manitobans. Personal Care Homes–Virden Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: Manitoba's provincial government has a responsibility to provide quality long-term care for qualifying Manitobans. Personal care homes in the town of Virden currently have a significant number of empty beds that cannot be filled because of a critical nursing shortage in these facilities.

In 2006, a municipally formed retention committee was promised that the Virden nursing shortage would be resolved by the fall of 2006. Virtually all personal care homes in southwestern Manitoba are full, yet as of early October 2007, the nursing shortage in Virden is so severe that more than one-quarter of the beds at the Westman Nursing Home are sitting empty. Seniors, many of whom are war veterans, are therefore being transported to other communities for care.

These communities are often a long distance from Virden and family members are forced to travel for more than two hours round trip to visit their loved ones, creating significant financial and emotional hardship for these families. Those seniors that have been moved out of Virden have not received assurance that they will be moved back to Virden when these beds become available. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to consider taking serious action to fill the nursing vacancies at personal care homes in the town of Virden and to consider reopening the beds that have been closed as the result of this nursing shortage. To urge the Minister of Health to consider prioritizing the needs of those seniors that have been moved out of their community by committing to move those individuals back into Virden as soon as the beds become available. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by Tara Cameron, Gwenda Hayward and Roxanne Freeman. Public Meeting–Premier's Attendance Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: The background to this petition is as follows: The Premier (Mr. Doer) has been silent on the issue related to serious allegations with respect to his office. The Premier is not answering questions related to the said issue inside the Legislature. There is no indication that the Premier is enforcing Manitoba's code of ethics for political parties. Based on the 1999 Monnin report inquiry, leaders of political parties are obligated to enforce the code of ethics.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier to consider attending the November 5 public meeting at the Munroe public

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1771 library, which is located in his constituency, Mr. Speaker. It is signed by R. Ortanacio, M. Illocincio, M. Marasigan and many, many other fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Justice Second Report Ms. Marilyn Brick (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Justice. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Justice presents the following as its Second Report. Mr. Speaker: Dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Justice presents the following as its Second Report. Meetings Your committee met on Monday, October 29, 2007, at 6:30 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building. Matters under Consideration Bill No. 5–The Public Accounts Committee Meeting Dates Act (Legislative Assembly Act Amended)/Loi sur les dates de réunion du Comité des comptes publics (modification de la

Loi sur l'Assemblée législative) Bill No. 19–The Fair Registration Practices in Regulated Professions Act/Loi sur les pratiques d'inscription équitables dans les professions réglementées Bill No. 20–The Planning Amendment Act (Deemed Single Operations)/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aménagement du territoire (exploitations réputées uniques) Committee Membership Hon. Ms. Allan Hon. Mr. Ashton Ms. Brick (Chairperson) Hon. Mr. Chomiak Mr. Eichler Mr. Graydon Mr. Hawranik Ms. Marcelino (Vice-Chairperson) Mr. Saran Mr. Swan Mrs. Taillieu Substitutions received during committee proceedings: Mr. Dewar for Hon. Ms.

Allan Public Presentations Your committee heard 14 presentations on Bill No. 19–The Fair Registration Practices in Regulated Professions Act/Loi sur le s pratiques d'inscription équitables dans les professions réglementées, from: Sharon Eadie, The College of Occupational Therapists of Manitoba Douglas Bedford, Law Society of Manitoba Dr. William D.B.

Pope, Registrar, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba Ronald Guse, Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association Sheila Dresen, President, College of Registered Nurses of Manitoba Robyn Taylor, Association of Professional Engineers & Geoscientists Annette Osted, College of Registered Psychiatric Nurses Dave Ennis, Private Citizen Mamadou Ka, Private Citizen Dustin Gosnell, Manitoba Institute of Agrologists Monika Feist, Success Skills Centre Teyeb Mereji, Social Planning Council Virgilio Nazareth, Immigrant Professionals of Manitoba Dr.

Bahram Groohi, Association of Foreign Medical Graduates in Manitoba Written Submissions Your committee received one written submission on Bill No. 19–The Fair Registration Practices in Regulated Professions Act/Loi sur les pratiques d'inscription équitables dans les professions réglementées), from: Verna Holgate, College of Licensed Practical Nurses of Manitoba Your committee received two written submissions on Bill No. 20–The Planning Amendment Act (Deemed Single Operations)/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aménagement du territoire (exploitations réputées uniques), from: David Rolfe, Keystone Agricultural Producers Karl Kynoch, Manitoba Pork Council

1772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 Bills Considered and Reported Bill No. 5–The Public Accounts Committee Meeting Dates Act (Legislative Assembly Act Amended)/Loi sur les dates de réunion du Comité des comptes publics (modification de la

Loi sur l'Assemblée législative) Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill No. 19–The Fair Registration Practices in Regulated Professions Act/Loi sur les pratiques d'inscription équitables dans les professions réglementées Your committee agreed to report this bill, with the following amendments: THAT Clause 6 of the Bill be amended by replacing clause (

c) with the following: (

c) provide written reasons to applicants within a reasonable time in respect of all (

i) registration decisions refusing to grant registration, or granting registration subject to conditions, and (ii) internal review or appeal decisions, including, where practical, information respecting measures or programs that may be available to assist unsuccessful applicants in obtaining registration at a later date. THAT Clause 17(1)(

b) of the Bill be amended by adding “knowingly” before “provides” wherever it occurs THAT the following be added after Clause 18 of the Bill: Avoiding disclosure of personal information 18.1 A person who submits a report or other document for the purposes of this Act or the regulations must take every reasonable precaution to avoid disclosing personal information, as defined in The Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, in the report or document.

Confidentiality of information 18.2 A person is not guilty of an offence concerning the confidentiality or secrecy of information under any other enactment by reason of complying with a request or requirement to provide information to the fairness commissioner under this Act or the regulations. Bill No. 20–The Planning Amendment Act (Deemed Single Operations)/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aménagement du territoire (exploitations réputées uniques) Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Ms. Brick: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Wellington (Ms. Marcelino), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development Third Report Ms. Erna Braun (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the Third Report of the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development presents the following as its Third Report. Mr. Speaker: Dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development presents the following as its Third Report. Meetings Your committee met on Monday, October 29, 2007, at 6:30 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters under Consideration Bill No. 7–The Insurance Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances Bill No. 9–The Securities Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilières Bill No. 11–The Children's Advocate's Enhanced Mandate Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur l'élargissement du mandat du protecteur des enfants (modification de diverses dispositions législatives) Bill No. 15–The Biofuels Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biocarburants Bill No. 17–The Firefighters, Peace Officers and Workers Memorial Foundat ions Act/Loi sur les fondations à la mémoire des pompiers, des agents de la paix et des travailleurs

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1773 Committee Membership Committee Membership for the meeting: Ms. Blady Ms. Braun (Chairperson) Ms. Korzeniowski Hon. Mr. Lemieux Hon. Mr. Mackintosh Hon. Mr. Rondeau Hon. Mr. Selinger Mr. Briese Mr. Faurschou Mr. Maguire Mr. Schuler Your committee elected Ms. Korzeniowski as the Vice-Chairperson. Public Presentations Your committee heard one presentation on Bill No 11–The Children's Advocate's Enhanced Mandate Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur l'élargissement du mandat du protecteur des enfants (modification de diverses dispositions législatives), from: Dr.

Peter Markesteyn, Private Citizen Your committee heard six presentations on Bill No. 15–The Biofuels Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biocarburants, from: Glen Koroluk, Private Citizen Ken Thomas, Chairman, Manitoba Provincial Bio-Diesel Board John Skowronski, The Canadian Petroleum Institute Roy Eyjolfson, Bifrost Bio-Blends Ltd.

David Levin, Private Citizen Brian Chorney, Canadian Canola Growers Your committee heard two presentations on Bill No. 17–The Firefighters, Peace Officers and Workers Memorial Foundat ions Act/Loi sur les fondations à la mémoire des pompiers, des agents de la paix et des travailleurs, from: Alex Forrest, President, United Firefighters of Winnipeg Eric Glass, Chairman, Paramedic Association of Manitoba Bills Considered and Reported Bill No. 7–The Insurance Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances Your committee agreed to report this bill, with the following amendments: THAT Clause 2(

b) of the Bill be amended (

a) by replacing the part before the proposed

definitions with the following: (

b) by replacing the

definitions "accident insurance", "automobile insurance", "court", "credit insurance", "endowment insurance", "fire insurance", "guarantee insurance", "hail insurance", "life insurance", "livestock insurance", "marine insurance", "public liability insurance", "sickness insurance" and "weather insurance" with the following: (

b) by striking out the proposed

definitions "accidental death insurance", "disability insurance", and "mutual insurance". THAT Clause 20(

a) of the Bill be replaced with the following: (

a) by replacing the

definitions "beneficiary" and "declaration" with the following: "beneficiary" means a person–other than the insured or the insured's personal representative–who is designated or appointed in a contract or by a declaration, and to whom or for whose benefit insurance money payable under the contract is to be paid; (« bénéficiaire ») "declaration" means an instrument, signed by the insured, (

a) with respect to which an endorsement is made on the policy, (

b) that identifies the contract, or (

c) that describes the insurance, the insurance fund or a part of either of them, in which the insured designates his or her personal representative or a beneficiary as a person to whom or for whose benefit the insurance money payable under the contract is to be paid, or in which the insured changes or revokes a previous designation; (« déclaration ») THAT Clause 40 of the Bill be replaced with the following Coming into force–royal assent

1774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 40(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act comes into force on the day it receives royal assent. Coming into force–proclamation 40(2) Sections 2, 18, 20, 22, 25 and 30 and subsections 32(2) and 36(2) to (5) come into force on a day to be fixed by proclamation. Bill No. 9–The Securities Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilières Your committee agreed to report this bill, without amendment. Bill No. 11–The Children's Advocate's Enhanced Mandate Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur l'élargissement du mandat du protecteur des enfants (modification de diverses dispositions législatives) Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendment. THAT Clause 1(2) of the Bill be amended (

a) by replacing the proposed clause 8.2.3(1)(

a) with the following: (

a) must review the standards and quality of care and services provided under this Act to the child or the child's parent or guardian and any circumstances surrounding the death that relate to the standards or quality of the care and services; (

b) in the proposed subsection 8.2.3(2), by striking out "not to determine the cause of the child's death, but". Bill No. 15–The Biofuels Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biocarburants Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendments: THAT Clause 2(1) of the Bill be amended by replacing the proposed definition "biodiesel" with the following: "biodiesel" means (

a) an ester-based oxygenated fuel that is derived from vegetable oils, animal fats or other biomass material; or (

b) a prescribed renewable fuel that may be used to power a diesel engine or for heating. (« biodiesel ») THAT Clause 5(8) of the Bill be amended by replacing the proposed subsections 6.4(2) and (3) with the following: Credits to Ethanol Fund 6.4(2) The following amounts are to be paid or credited to the Ethanol Fund: (

a) for each of the first eight 12-month periods to which the denatured ethanol sales mandate applies, the amount determined by the following formula is to be paid or credited to the Ethanol Fund from the taxes collected under The Gasoline Tax Act for that period: Credit = R × L In this formula, R is the applicable rate, determined as follows: (

i) for the first two 12-month periods, $0.20 per litre, (ii) for the next three 12-month periods, $0.15 per litre, (iii) for the last three 12-month periods, $0.10 per litre; L is the least of (

i) the number of litres of denatured ethanol that were manufactured in Manitoba during the period, (ii) the number of litres of denatured ethanol included in gasohol that was sold during the period and on which tax under The Gasoline Tax Act was collected and not refunded, and (iii) the number of litres of gasoline and gasoline-based fuels that were sold by fuel suppliers during the period and on which tax under clause 2(1)(

d) of The Gasoline Tax Act was collected and not refunded, multiplied by the prescribed percentage that applies in determining the denatured ethanol sales mandate for that period, or, if another percentage is prescribed, by that other percentage; (

b) any portion of a grant repaid to or recovered by the minister; (

c) interest earned on amounts credited to the Ethanol Fund. Additional credit — before mandate begins 6.4(3) For December, 2007, and for each month after that until the denatured ethanol sales mandate begins to apply, there is to be paid or credited to the Ethanol Fund, from the taxes collected under The Gasoline Tax Act for that month, the amount determined by the Minister of Finance to be the equivalent of $0.025 per litre of gasohol to which the

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1775 rate reduction under subsection 2(2) of that Act applied in the same month one year earlier. THAT Clause 5(17) of the Bill be amended (

a) in Clause 5(17)(a), in the proposed clause 19(1)(a.1), by striking out "and" at the end of subclause (ii), adding "and" at the end of subclause (iii) and adding the following after subclause (iii): (iv) a renewable fuel, for the purposes of the definition "biodiesel" in

section 1; (

b) in Clause 5(17)(b), by replacing the proposed clause 19(1)(b.6) with the following: (b.6) prescribing a percentage for the purpose of subclause (iii) of "L" in the formula in subsection 6.4(2); Bill (No. 17)–The Firefighters, Peace Officers and Workers Memorial Foundat ions Act/Loi sur les fondations à la mémoire des pompiers, des agents de la paix et des travailleurs Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendment: THAT the following be added after Clause 14 of the Bill: Memorial foundations established by regulation 14.1(1) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may, by regulation, establish one or more memorial foundations to promote the memory of paramedics and other specified groups of workers who have died in the workplace.

Corporate status 14.1(2) A memorial foundation established by regulation is a corporation without share capital and shall be carried on without pecuniary gain to its members. Contents of regulation 14.1(3) A regulation establishing a memorial foundation must (

a) set out the purposes of the foundation; (

b) specify which provisions of this Act apply to the foundation and modify any of those provisions to deal with the particular circumstances of the foundation; and (

c) contain any other provisions required for the foundation to achieve its purposes. Ms. Braun: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (13:40) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Jim Ternier from Saskatchewan who is the guest of the honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen).

Also in the public gallery we have with us Connie Dyck and Madison Dyck who are the sister and the niece of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). Also in the public gallery we have with us from Dawson Trail School 55 grade 7 students under the direction of Suzanne Moore. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Justice System Request for Public Inquiry Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Until yesterday we had a family in our province of Manitoba, the Taman family, that was dealing with the grief that would be difficult for any of us to imagine, arising from the loss of Crystal Taman, a loved member of that family. Yesterday, as a result of a decision made in a provincial court, that grief was amplified and went from grief to a sense of anger and injustice that justice had not been served in connection with the sentence handed down to Mr. Harvey-Zenk. Responsibility for this tragedy, Mr. Speaker, rests squarely on the shoulders of Mr.

Harvey-Zenk, the driver of the vehicle in question. However, there is an expectation in our province that after a tragedy like this our justice system will operate at the very highest standards.

1776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 In this case, Mr. Speaker, recognizing that the vast majority of people working within our justice system do so with extreme levels of competence, dedication and integrity, but in this case we've had facts and allegations arise which shake our confidence in the ability of our justice system to administer important cases like the one that we're currently dealing with. We've got issues arising in terms of the handling of the matter by the East St. Paul police department.

We have a family, Taman family, raising questions about perceptions of the independence of the prosecutor involved. We have concerns about the operation of Victim Services in our province. Furthermore, we have the expression of frustration by Judge Wyant, yesterday, indicating that while he is presented with a certain body of evidence upon which to make an important decision, it was his view that there was not a relationship between the evidence before him and the true facts of the case.

Judge Wyant said, and I quote: This case "can only serve to undermine the confidence in our administration of justice." That was the end of his quote. We know, Mr. Speaker, that in an emotional situation like this that it is important that the facts be gathered and that Manitobans, including the Taman family and all others impacted by this tragedy, have absolute confidence that our justice system is working to the very best and highest standard.

So I want to ask the Premier, in light of the issues that have arisen in this case, whether he is prepared to call a full independent public inquiry into this case to assure the Taman family and all Manitobans that the administration of justice in our province is being conducted at the highest possible level, establish what took place in this case and put in place measures to ensure that it can't repeat itself. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his question and the points he's raised in his question.

Certainly, the statements he made yesterday dealing with the case, along with our Minister of Justice (Mr. Chomiak), dealing with the initial review that has been established by the Minister of Justice dealing with the police force in question, has been announced. Further, we have announced the review of the independent prosecutor's office and decisions pursuant to the Taman case would be investigated by a former Queen's Bench judge, former Justice Ruth Krindle.

Obviously, that relates, as well, to the relationship on victims and Victim Services here, but there is also no question there are as many other questions beyond the scope of those two reviews. It's certainly our intent, and I discussed this with the Minister of Justice, to announce quickly a public inquiry on the number of other questions that are outstanding for the Taman family and for the people of Manitoba.

There are a great number of questions that have not been answered, and building upon the two reviews that the Minister of Justice has already announced, we feel that other questions in our public, in terms of public confidence, must be answered. The Taman family and all Manitobans have a right to those answers, and the public inquiry will be announced shortly, perhaps right after Question Period. The Minister of Justice has been dealing with it with his own department. Mr. McFadyen: I thank the Premier for that response.

Certainly, I had expressed yesterday, immediately after Question Period, my support for the review that was being done with respect to the East St. Paul police. Since that time, we've had the opportunity to more fulsomely review the comments by Judge Wyant and listen to the family with respect to their interactions with the Justice Department. Clearly, Mr.

Speaker, ther e's a profound sense of dissatisfaction on the part of the family in terms of the level of disclosure that they were provided with regarding the position that was going to be taken by the Crown in court and a sense that the victim services element of this was not conducted at the level that might be expected, and certainly was expected by this family. I want to, firstly, thank the Premier for his commitment to a full public inquiry and also ask though if the inquiry is going to take into account the issues arising from the East St. Paul police situation.

And with respect to the independence of the special prosecutor appointed, whether it might not be better and fairer and more expeditious if the public inquiry takes precedence over those two reviews, if those two reviews were called off, a public inquiry be put in place as quickly as possible to deal with the issues those two reviews would have dealt with otherwise. Mr. Doer: We see the two immediate reviews dealing with matters that are very, very important for the whole justice system and can be dealt with as quickly as possible. We see them taking no longer than 60 days, but that will not be lost time. The

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1777 Minister of Justice will be announcing the person who will be conducting the inquiry, the issue of who the special prosecutor is going to be or the persons that will be involved, not the special prosecutor, but the independent counsel rather, for that inquiry, so I do not see the 60 days as being a delay but rather building upon the two reviews that will take place. We want some of the immediate answers, including the relationship of the independent prosecutor.

If there are issues there today or tomorrow that we can identify with Justice Krindle, we want to know that ri ght away because we don't know when the next case is going to come forward that is pursuant to the criteria established by former Justice Dewar in terms of the requirement for an independent counsellor.

We want to know that immediately, and in terms of justice if there are any errors that were made or criteria that should be changed or questions dealing with the proper disclosure of who establishes the independent prosecutor, who chooses the person, are the disclosure measures properly documented for the public to make sure that the public has confidence in this. We do not see that delaying the inquiry, but rather these two reviews should build upon the public inquiry where a light has to be shone on the justice system.

Justice must not only be served but must be perceived to be served for the Taman family, for all Manitoba families, and I'm confident we can do that with a very thorough review. * (13:50) Mr. McFadyen: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we respect the individuals that have been put in place for the current reviews. However, I would reiterate concern that those processes could, in fact, serve to slow down the full public inquiry.

The fact is that the special prosecutor in the case of the matter before us no longer has a role on a go-forward basis, and so there would seem to be no issue on an ongoing basis looking forward with respect to that particular individual or his role with this case. I would agree that to the extent there is a role that that matter ought to be dealt with, but the review that's been discussed is not the way to get at that issue. It's simply a matter for the Attorney General (Mr. Chomiak) and his department to look at and determine whether an ongoing role is appropriate.

Assuming that there is no role on a go-forward basis, or that there is not a significant role, a full public inquiry is the surest way to get at the facts. We have a concern, Mr. Speaker, with multiple investigations, as happened in the Crocus case, where the Securities Commission embarks on an investigation, a lawsuit is then launched, a motion is brought to stop the Securities Commission investigation which then takes place in order to allow the lawsuit to be pursued. And the government took no position with respect to the halt of the Securities Commission investigation.

Our concern similarly on this case is that the reviews that they have now put in place will go forward and will, in fact, provide an opportunity to delay the start of the independent public inquiry which we think would result in added travesty in a case where we have what is quite clearly an existing travesty of justice.

So I'm calling on the Premier to halt the reviews that have already been announced, put those aside, announce and proceed with the full independent public inquiry under The Evidence Act, with full powers to that commissioner so that we don't have competing investigations and reviews resulting in other investigations being stopped, tripped over, interfered with and delayed. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the public inquiry will be the precedent inquiry, will take precedent over the two other reviews.

Secondly, if we have problems in a police force, we want to know that immediately for the public interest, and if there are difficulties or weaknesses which arise from the review of the independent prosecutor's office, we want to know that quickly. It does take a little time to assemble the staff, and there are always lawyers that are hired by different parties dealing with a public inquiry. They have to be certified by the person who is appointed as a commissioner. I do not see this is as a delay. I see this as getting immediate public results on the police force questions.

I see this as getting immediate public answers to the questions dealing with the assignment and disclosure of the independent prosecutor. It allows us to make changes immediately in the public interest as we have to. It does not take precedent over a public inquiry using The Evidence Act. We'll be looking at all the issues related to this case, all the issues related to this case, which is much broader than the two questions, so we think this builds upon the information required by the public. We do not see it slowing it down.

In fact, I've appointed a few inquiries in the past, and there is a time required to appoint a retired judge that has the credibility of the victim, the community

1778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 and members of the judicial system. It takes time to appoint a special counsel, I believe the title is, that brings the evidence forward and calls the witnesses. It takes time for lawyers to be certified, and in that time we still need answers to the questions of the reviews we established yesterday. This will be a transpar ent process. There are questions that need to be answered. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition on that point. The public has a right, the Taman family has the right to have those questions answered.

They weren't answered fully yesterday. They haven't been answered throughout this case, and they will be answered to the best degree possible by a public inquiry. The Taman family deserves that and so do the people of Manitoba. Justice System Victims' Bill of Rights Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): When the Minister of Justice intro duced an amendment to The Victims' Rights Act in the year 2000, the Minister of Justice touted that the bill would require prosecutors to consult with victims and their families on key issues, on decisions, with respect to whether or not to proceed with the charge and with respect to plea bargains. The Taman family states that no such consultations took place, so I ask the Minister of Justice: Why did the minister fail to protect Crystal Taman's family on both counts? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, that's one of the reasons why we have decided to take the third step in a process that we have been working on subsequent to getting the transcripts of the judicial comment to have a public inquiry, because there are conflicting issues and conflicting statements with respect to who talked to whom when. But I do want to point out that the victims' rights bill entitles and requires the prosecutor to consult with the registered families of the victim. In the cases that I have been privy to and had opportunity to deal with, I've been advised that has happened. Mr.

Hawranik: If the family of Crystal Taman indicated that they were being ignored during the process leading up to the trial, the victims' rights act was not being followed. The victims' families were being left out of the process, and that's contrary to the victims' rights act. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Why were the rights of the family of Crystal Taman denied? Mr. Chomiak: Again, Mr.

Speaker, when I met with the parents of Crystal Taman in my office about two weeks ago and explained to them the processes, et cetera, and they talked about their statement, their victim's statement that they had provided in the courtroom and talked about issues relating to their discussions with the prosecutor, Mr. Minuk, I talked about the fact that I couldn't talk about the specifics of a case because it was before the court. I suggest to the member that, rather than turning this into a political issue, we wait to see what the inquiry has to say about the facts of the case and move from there.

We put in place the rights for victims to have the ability to be talked to by the prosecutor– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Hawranik: Crystal Taman's mother wrote to the Justice Minister and she demanded to know why charges against Harvey-Zenk were stayed and why her family was left in the dark during all stages of the case, and any information requested of the minister was denied. All information requested was denied. In the meantime, the interests of the criminal were respected, going as far as escorting Harvey-Zenk out of the courtroom, shielding him from the media.

So I ask the Minister of Justice: Why has he given more rights to the criminal than rights to the victim? And, secondly, this public inquiry, are they going to investigate the actions of this minister? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this inquiry will go as far as the judiciary wishes to go. Again, when I met with the mother and father of the victim in my office during the course of the case and indicated to them that I was precluded from talking about the specifics, we talked about their rights in general.

We talked about the difficulties and how hard it is, how tragic it is, to be in the position that they were as parents. I was aware that the husband was receiving assistance from the victims' rights, I believe, I was advised, and the family told me how difficult it was to do the victim impact statement, that is the parents. I understand how difficult that is, and it's no easier today. And maybe it'll be no easier once the judicial inquiry comes down, but at least we'll have facts and answers to the p ublic so that maybe it can improve a little bit.

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1779 Child Welfare System Child Death Investigations Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, through Bill 11 the NDP are proposing to split responsibility for investigation of child deaths between two offices, the Chief Medical Examiner and the Children's Advocate. This split will defuse accountability and create a conflict of interest and duplicate responsibilities. Last night at committee we heard a presentation from Dr. Peter Markesteyn, a nationally respected expert in this field. He made a very compelling argument to keep

section 10 review function with the office of the Chief Medical Examiner. In light of Dr. Markesteyn's presentation, will the Minister of Family Services rethink this legislation? * (14:00) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): This statement begs the question: How many other recommendations from the Children's Advocate and from the Ombudsman for the Province of Manitoba will the opposition now reject when it comes to the external reviews into the child welfare system? We are embarked on an initiative called Changes for Children. That means change for children, Mr.

Speaker, forward, not backward. The opposition has the choice, recognize and respect the independent outside advice of the Children's Advocate and the Ombudsman. The former CME, medical officer–examiner, apparently, is not supportive of the principle. I understand that the current Chief Medical Examiner is, and I understand the opposition was. Are they flip-flopping like bass in a boat, once again, on another bill? Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, Dr. Markesteyn made several very good points in his presentation last night.

He points out, and I quote, an investigator should not be an advocate and an advocate should not be an investigator. He says Manitoba should learn from the Turner review in Newfoundland and avoid this conflict of interest. Yet, this minister seems determined to push forward this legislation. Will the minister heed Dr. Markesteyn's warnings and advice? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, last night we addressed concerns raised by Dr. Markesteyn, but there were concerns raised by the Medical Examiner in office, the Ombudsman for the Province of Manitoba, the Children's Advocate for the Province of Manitoba.

They put together several recommendations, five in total, and the legislation, Bill 11, that's before this House reflects the recommendations made and the wording also recognizes the input of the Children's Advocate and the Chief Medical Examiner. Mr. Speaker, if members oppos ite are opposed to the recommendations of the Ombudsman and the Children's Advocate, tell us how many. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, Dr. Markesteyn made it clear last night that this legislation creates an inherent conflict of interest. It is a duplication of responsibilities, and according to a nationally respected expert it is unnecessary.

The minister could therefore look at other options like increasing the length of the Children's Advocate's term rather than adding more responsibilities to her workload. This is a resource issue. If the Chief Medical Examiner was given additional resources to do his job, there would be no need to transfer

section 10 reviews to the Children's Advocate. I will again ask the minister: Will he give serious reconsideration to this legislation in light of Dr. Markesteyn's comments? Mr. Mackintosh: A s I s t a t e d l a s t n i g h t t o D r . Markesteyn, he may be unaware, Mr. Speaker, that we have committed to doubling the resources available for

section 10 reviews which is very important and really formed a lot of the concern of Dr. Markesteyn. Indeed, I think the office of the Children's Advocate has received double the funding since we've come into the office. But having said that, I find it regrettable that members opposite then would now oppose greater powers for the Children's Advocate, Mr. Speaker, and would oppose what I see as a very key feature of the Changes for Children initiative and the external reviews.

It's very important that we move ahead with change, that we increase the powers of the Children's Advocate to look at the standard and quality of services provided to a child who has died, so that we can learn from those experiences. The Medical Examiner still remains with the power to look at the man– Mr. Speaker: Order.

1780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 Addictions Foundation of Manitoba Retention of Staff Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the services provided by the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba are absolutely critical in treating and supporting Manitobans with substance abuse problems. I have been in touch with several AFM workers who are very concerned because AFM is having a difficult time retaining its front-line workers. They are concerned about the high rates of vacancy and turnover. A stable, front-line work force is needed to maintain and strengthen treatment services.

Will the Minister of Healthy Living tell us why she has allowed addiction treatment services to be put at risk? Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): I thank the member for the question. We have not put addiction services at risk. We have made more investments in addiction services than they ever did. What we've done with that, we've made investments to expand services throughout the province of Manitoba. We announced two months ago an $8.5-million new facility in Thompson, Manitoba, where we will serve northern Manitobans.

That money is being used to ensure that we provide a continuum of services, services that deal with prevention, education, rehabilitation and treatment which is essential to support people with addictions. Mrs. Rowat: There are already significant wait lists for many AFM programs. If AFM is unable to retain a highly skilled work force, it is possible that these wait lists could get even longer, making a big difference in the life of an addict. Several AFM workers have told me that the services provided could be in jeopardy as a result of this government's failure to address staff shortages and turnover.

Will the Minister of Healthy Living explain why maintaining the programs offered by AFM is apparently not a priority of this government? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Maintaining programs for people that are dealing with addictions is a priority. We are supporting multiple agencies throughout the province of Manitoba. We provide support to AFM, Behavioural Health Foundation. We provide support to Laurel Centre as well. Many, many organizations provide quality service to Manitobans throughout the province.

We will continue to support people that are dealing and battling with addictions to ensure that they have the quality of service that they deserve so they can live a full life in recovery. West-Man Nursing Home–Virden Retention of Staff Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, Virden residents including the Legion, the Chamber of Commerce, the Sherwood Handi-Transit board, have expressed huge frustration that 13 to 50 West-Man Nursing Home beds in Virden are empty due to a nursing shortage. In July of '06, the Minister of Health promised the local retention committee that she'd fix the shortage.

Today, over a year later, the beds are still empty. The nurses aren't there. Mr. Speaker, will the minister today announce procedures to solve the nursing shortage at the Virden West-Man Nursing Home's facilities? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question. He and I have had a couple of discussions about this. I would like to inform the member that, of course, in Virden we have seen success recently in restoring the complement of health- care professionals. The majority of the vacant nursing and health-care aide positions at the Sherwood PCH have been filled.

Admissions have resumed there. We have had contact with patients awaiting beds. We know that, so far, four of those individuals have refused placement. They're not yet ready to be placed there. The remainder of people on the list will be placed, and we're continuing to work with the West-Man home, as well, to continue our admissions in rural Manitoba. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, virtually all of the personal care homes in South Westman are full. Virden is the only facility in the surrounding area with anywhere close to this level of vacancy and over a year of empty beds in the West-Man home.

Why has the Minister of Health mismanaged this major nursing shortage so badly? Why is she satisfied with 26 percent vacancy rate and finds that acceptable? Will she today commit to full occupancy in these Virden and area personal care facilities? A year of no action is not acceptable, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Oswald: I said, in my previous answer, that certainly many of those positions have been filled at the Sherwood Home. We continue to work to fill positions at the West-Man home in partnership, of course, with the Assiniboine Regional Health

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1781 Authority. We know that the complement of beds will increase to 40 as of this week; we still have 10 to go. We have more work to do, Mr. Speaker. That's, incidentally, why we've committed to add 700 nurses to our human resources complement, which I would argue is in sharp contrast to firing a thousand of them. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, we are speaking about the West-Man Nursing Home. We know that the Sherwood has–last week the minister wasn't aware that there was a shor tage in the Sherwood as well. But, ongoing, for over a year–[interjection] Mr.

Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Arthur-Virden has the floor. Mr. Maguire: The nursing shortage, Mr. Speaker, in the West-Man personal ca re home in Virden has been going on for over a year. Many local seniors have been, including veterans, already panelled for these facilities, but they've had to be displaced to towns where they are to tally alone because the minister has failed to make their care a priority. What's the minister's plan? How and when will the minister return those displaced citizens to their seniors facilities? Ms.

Oswald: As I' ve said to the m em ber before, in Estimates and in conversation, we're working with the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority to build that complement of nurses. I can say to the member that it is very difficult for families when they do have to travel from Virden to Birtle to visit their loved ones. The Assiniboine Regional Health Authority is committed today to bring those members back to the community. I take them at their word. Mr.

Speaker, we're also reviewing staffing guidelines in personal care homes for the first time since 1973, so we can get the appropriate kind of care for the level of acuity in those personal care homes. We've promised 700 more nurses; they fired 1,000 of them, drove 500 more of them out of the province. I still believe, Mr. Speaker, that they're going to ask questions about nursing shortages when they are the engineers of asphyxiation. * (14:10) Bill 17 Inclusion of Paramedics Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): That answer was scary. In committee last evening, Mr.

Speaker, the committee on The Firefighters, Peace Officers and Workers Memorial Foundation Act, the Minister of Infrastructure when asked about the inclusion of paramedics in the bill insisted that this group was covered under the workers and labourers category. The Member for Kirkfield Park (Ms. Blady) then weighed into the discussion and clarified and corrected the minister, stating that this category only referred to unionized workers. I think I'll ask the Minister of Infrastructure if he can tell this House who is right.

Is it the minister, who says the category is all-inclusive, as he insisted, or is it the Member for Kirk field Park, who says it is only for unionized workers? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, this piece of legislation, we are indeed proud of the fact that we're bringing forward firefighte rs, peace officers, other workers, paramedics and many other workers who have died on the job, deserve our recognition, deserve Manitoba's praise for the hard work day in, day out.

They serve on behalf of all of us, and I'm glad to see the opposition has finally come on board to support this piece of legislation. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, un fortunately, the minister ignored the question or couldn't answer it, but he hasn't answered. Mr. Speaker, from the Member for Kirkfield Park's comments, it became obvious that this bill has now become a very partisan and political piece of legislation. In other words, if you're not part of the union, you don't count.

I want to ask the minister if he will do the right and the honourable thing and amend this legislation so that it includes both unionized and non-unionized workers in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the Farmers Union for that question and I just want to say that we are proud of the fact that we're bringing–we, we, this government–are bringing forward this piece of legislation to honour what we've got– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

1782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 Mr. Lemieux: –while they're doing their work, Mr. Speaker. I have to tell you that we did bring an amendment last night to include the paramedics and other workers, which we worked with the opposition to ensure this would happen. I'm glad to see that the members opposite supported it, and do support the fact that we need to have this honour take place for the firefighters, peace officers, other workers and paramedics, and any other workers who have died in the workplace, Mr. Speaker.

I'm glad to see that the members opposite, instead of playing wedge politics, divide and conquer between different organizations, that they are finally on board and are willing to support this legislation. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Member for Kirkfield Park can answer the question since the minister cannot. Mr. Speaker, the Memb er for Kirkfield Park, through her comments last evening, vividly showed this government's agenda in the narrowing intent of the bill.

Can the minister tell the House, or can the Member for Kirkfield Park tell the House, what the real reason was for not including paramedics as a category, in that firefighters, police and paramedics are part of unionized workers and part of Emergency Measures services in this province? Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question, Mr. Speaker, but I am actually quite amazed that this is the party that voted against changes to The Workplace Safety and Health Act, and now we have to arm-twist them to support this legislation to support workers who died on the job. You know, Mr.

Speaker, first of all, they give the boot to a former leader, that was the MLA for Kirkfield Park, they feel bad about that, I know. Now we have an MLA, a strong representative in Kirkfield Park, and we're very, very proud with it. Now they're trying to make disparaging remarks about that MLA. Greenhouse Gas Emissions Targets Agricultural Sector Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, in 2002, the Premier proudly unveiled his climate change plan and said that he believed in that plan, that he could achieve a 23 percent reduction below 1990 levels of greenhouse gases by 2012.

The Premier is now revising his climate change plan, realizing he won't meet his initial targets, and he's going to put in place some legally mandated targets because his approach over the last many years has not worked. Agriculture, which was sadly missing from the Premier's 2002 plan, accounts for about one-third of the greenhouse gas emissions in Manitoba. I ask the Premier: Will agriculture emissions, including carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide, be fully included in his targets, and when will the Premier present a plan for reduction of greenhouse gases in the agricultural sector? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, and soon. Purchase of Carbon Credits Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, we wait. Last week, the Premier was off target when he talked about purchasing carbon credits. What's important is that whether it's the IISD or the Liberal Party or others who want to purchase carbon credits, that we can do it from Manitoba sources and help Manitobans improve by reducing greenhouse gases. At the moment, this, unfortunately, is not possible. What I would say to the Premier is this: Today I commit that my travel from henceforth will be carbon neutral because I'll be purchasing offsets.

Will the Premier commit that his government will have all travel provincially carbon neutral from henceforth just like British Columbia has already committed to be running a carbon-neutral government with a carbon-neutral travel approach? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite actually should be lauded for his neutral position, his neutral position on the east side versus the west side, his neutral position on raising the minimum wage, the many neutral positions he has. Unlike the member opposite, the former Stéphane Dion plan called for purchase of carbon credits from Third World countries.

We think building hydro which, of course, the Liberals didn't have a neutral position on–they called it lemonstone instead of Limestone, Mr. Speaker–which has produced tremendous amounts of displacement of carbon dioxide in places like Minnesota, we think Manitobans should get credit for that, unlike members opposite. Mr. Speaker: Order.

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1783 Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on a point of order? Mr. Gerrard: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party in this province under D.L. Campbell and Garson has a long history of bringing forward development in hydro-electric power, and the party under my leadership has continued to take a strong stand developing hydro-electric power and its benefits for this province. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before making a ruling, I want to remind members that points of order should not be used for debate.

They should be brought to the attention of the Speaker, a breach of a rule. The honourable Member for River Heights does not have a point of order. It's clearly a dispute over the facts. Breathalyzer Tests Government's Position Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I'm thinking that if the Pr emier accepted the challenge from the Leader of the Liberal Party, I might be inclined to buy him a bicycle or something of that nature to help contribute towards it. Mr. Speaker, there is a very serious issue in regard to the old breathalyzer issue.

Manitobans as a whole support a government that acts affirmatively in a strong fashion in fighting drinking and driving. They support those initiatives. Unfortunately, there is a mixed message that is get ting out there, and that is, should you get pulled over and you are past 0.08, that, in fact, you not blow into the breathalyzer. It's in your best interest not to blow into the breathalyzer. The consequences for not blowing into the breathalyzer have to be more significant than if you choose to blow in. Would the government not agree with that? * (14:20) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we've had a 20 percent reduction in drinking and driving offences in Manitoba, and any initiative by the federal government under the Criminal Code we support. C-31 was a bill that would actually achieve part of what the member opposite is calling for. We supported that. I understand it was left in the Senate. Now we don't have anybody in the Senate. Apparently, the Liberals have a majority, but hopefully, we can get that bill passed. C-31 was in the Senate. It should have been passed in Parliament. It should be law. We certainly support that bill. Flu Shot Provincial Program Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St.

James): Mr. Speaker, I was most pleased to be at Deer Lodge Centre this morning with some of my constituents getting a flu shot. Can the Minister of Healthy Living inform the House about the importance of this program at this time of year? Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): I'd like to thank the member for the question. I think that it's very important today to talk about the importance of the flu shot.

The motto is: "Get the shot, not the flu." The Province of Manitoba, along with our many partners, will be getting that message out to all Manitobans to ensure that they're getting the flu shot because we believe, and we know, that it does prevent influenza and pneumonia. We know the risk of influenza and pneumonia for many vulnerable people, older adults, because of chronic diseases, so we offer free flu shots to a number of target groups: people that are over 65 years, children between the ages of six and 23 months, as well as first responders. This year, we're excited to also add pregnant women to that list.

Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Retired Teachers' COLA Petitions Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, earlier today, we had a lively debate in this House on Bill 211, legislation that would guarantee the appointment of a retired teacher to the TRAF board. I also read out a petition requesting a long-term, fair cost-of-living adjustment for retired teachers. As they have on a number of occasions, retired teachers have been in the visitors' gallery for both of these events today.

I would now like to take this opportunity to table five petitions signed by retired teachers who couldn't be here today. The reason they couldn't be here today is they live in British Columbia. Mr. Speaker, individuals who had teaching careers in Manitoba have retired, moved to British

1784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 Columbia, and mailed the petitions that they have signed by 75 people from all across that province. What this says is not only does this issue of a fair COLA for retired teachers date back 30 years into Manitoba's history, it also extends well beyond our provincial boundaries. I will say again, as I have said many times, that teachers make invaluable contributions to our society and in the shaping of our children's futures. They deserve to be treated with respect.

It is time for the NDP government to acknowledge that retired teachers deserve to be treated fairly. Winnipeg Symphony Outreach Concert Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): I , a l o n g w i t h m y colleague, the Member for Rossmere (Ms. Braun), had the pleasure of attending the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra concert hosted last week by River East School Division. The concert which paired the WSO with River East Transcona Children's Choir, the Project Z Singers and the Miles Mac Collegiate Choir was truly a delight for those in attendance.

This was the third an nual outreach concert performed by WSO and the River East Transcona schools. The evening showcased work performed by WSO, joined by 250 grade 5 and grade 6 students from the school division were extremely, extremely good. Vocalist, Kelsey Cowie and guitarist, Jordan Laidlaw, both wowed the audience with their powerful performances. The event also premiered "Numbers, I Have a Name," a piece composed by Zane Zalis.

This moving piece explores themes around the holocaust, a time when people's individual names were replaced by the impersonal identification numbers for the purpose of dehumanizing them. The piece highlighted the inextinguishable nature of the human spirit and the inherent power of a name. Mr. Speaker, I am proud to be able to recognize the vibrancy of Manitoba's art community, as well as many parents and families in Radisson who support music and arts programming in our schools. I believe in the importance of arts programming in Manitoba's schools.

I believe these programs help students reach their full potential. Through arts in education, students learn about people and cultures around the globe and here at home. They develop their own identity and gain a deeper understanding of the world around them. Events and– Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Does the honourable member have leave to complete his member's statement. An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Jha: Thank you very much. They develop their own identity and gain a deeper understanding of the world around them.

Events and partnerships like this one between the WSO and the River East Transcona School Division not only celebrate the music, they also celebrate education and pay tribute to the infinite power of the human spirit, developing a better society for all of us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Exploited Youth Forum Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, a forum on exploited youth was held in Winnipeg on October 23 and 24. Law enforcement members of the Aboriginal community, former sex trade workers and social agencies came together to discuss this critically important issue.

Seldom do these separate entities join as a single unit to discuss and examine a problem that is largely affecting those most marginalized and those most vulnerable in our community. The forum highlighted some of the serious gaps that exist in the protection of children who are at risk of being lured and exploited by predators. Mr. Speaker, over the course of the two-day seminar, participants had the honour of hearing and learning from a variety of respected speakers on a multitude of topics. Personal stories were shared by mothers whose children had been lured into the sex trade.

Social agencies such as Sage House shared their successes and the challenges they face daily helping children deal with the trauma suffered as consequences of exploitation. Members of the Aboriginal community and members of law enforcement spoke. It was then possible to examine child exploitation from personal, social and political perspectives. Child exploitation has victims with names and faces and families. For too long their stories have gone unheard. Past practice has shown that, although all of the separate agencies may have a common goal, they have been competing instead of working together.

Of all the topics discussed at this forum there was a common theme: Partnership will create positive change. Only when exploitation is looked at

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1785 through multiple sets of eyes from many different angles could this issue be examined efficiently. Mr. Speaker, this fo rum was a good step forward, but as we've seen before this government is all talk and very little action. The time has come for this government to stop turning a blind eye to what is going on under their watch and to listen to the voices of exploited children and their anguished families. There is a very real need for change, and we challenge this government to take action to stop the exploitation of children. Thank you.

Canadian Parliamentary Seminar Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, Canadians cherish their democracy and are justifiably proud of the Westminster model of parliamentary democracy to which we adhere. I was delighted to join the honourable Member for Minnedosa in participating in the 6th Canadian Parliamentary Seminar held in Ottawa from October 21 to 27. The general theme of this seminar was: Strengthening Democracy and the Role of Parliamentarians: Challenges and Solutions.

Apart from the Manitoba and P.E.I. delegation, the seminar included participants from all over the Commonwealth: Uganda, Sri Lanka, Australia, Jersey, Northern Ireland, Saint Helena, India, Saint Lucia and Samoa. I want to thank Mr. Russ Hiebert, MP, chairman and regional representative of the Canadian Branch Executive Committee and Ms. Carol Chafe, executive secretary and her very efficient staff. They certainly made us feel welcome and made dialoguing, presenting and networking easy for all delegates.

We were also able to meet with the Speakers of both the House of Commons and the Senate as well as numerous senators and MPs, including Judy Wasylycia-Leis and John Reynolds. A few of the interesting topics under discussion were: Strengthening the Ties among Commonwealth Countries, the Role of Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians, Recruiting more Women into Politics, the Role of Media and Lobbyists in the Political Process and Ways to Increase Voter Turnout in Elections. It was interesting to note that the delegate from Saint Helena represented 3,500 people,

whereas a delegate from India represented 1 billion people. Coming from a beautiful northern community, I was able to share experiences with delegates from Saint Helena and Saint Lucia, all of us representing smaller populations. That being said, Mr. Speaker, in a democracy, all voices ar e important and valuable. I'm sure that I speak for the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), as well, when I say we found the seminar very interesting and informative. I was very pleased to be given the opportunity to participate in that gathering. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Public Meetings-Premier’s Attendance Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wanted to take this opportunity to emphasize the importance of the Premier (Mr. Doer) to come out to a public meeting on November 5 inside his own constituency. One would like to think that if any MLA was to afford anothe r from another political party to come out and participate in a public exchange that they would feel somewhat obligated to do so. One's got to question why the Premier seems to give the impression–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamoureux: That's right. Yes. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, one's got to question why it is that the Premier has chosen to avoid having even any sort of accountability to his own constituents. I am providing him the opportunity to participate. I am providing him the opportunity to come into Inkster and to participate in a public exchange in terms of the whole issue of The Maples nomination and facts that have been brought forward. The Premier consistently refuses to answer questions. It's most unfortunate. At the end of the day, I do believe that the truth will be known.

You know, at the end of the day, I believe that the Premier is doing a disservice not only to the Legislature, but also to his own constituents by, if he doesn't want to attend the meeting, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you then he should, at the very least, answer the questions that are being put forward. So if he's not prepared to attend the meeting then at least answer the questions inside the Legislature. He cannot have it both ways. We continue to promote this event. I extend the invitation to any NDP MLA that feels that they have any courage whatsoever to debate the issue in a public forum

1786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 where the seals of the Chamber are not present and in fact, it's one-on-one on an equal– Mr. Speaker: Order. GRIEVANCES Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Arthur- Virden, on a grievance? Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I guess it's a pleasure always to be able to rise in the House, but it's with concern that I rise in the House today to grieve on an issue that's becoming much more prominent to all Manitobans on a daily basis, and that is the daffy detour decision around the hydro line in regard to putting a hydro line, a transmission line in northern Manitoba from Hudson's Bay to The Pas, down through Brandon and back to the east side of Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, in order to export power to Ontario. Mr. Speaker, these kinds of decisions are why Manitobans are sceptical in regard to the kinds of government credibility.

This type of decision deters from any kind of accountability. It affects all of us as politicians, all 57 of us in this House. I would say that common sense has run the rule on this one, and lost the rule, I should say, on this one. There is no common sense, very little, to this type of a decision. Anyone that wants to add $500 million at least to the capital cost of the transmission line that isn't needed to be spent on a project like this. These are $500-million worth of ratepayers' fees that are going to have to be paid down the road.

This $500-million cost, at least $500-million cost from the extra 400 to 500 kilometres of extra line that's going to be needed to be required on this line. It's a sad day in the House in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, when the government overrules the decision, the economic viability, of the major Crown corporation that we have in this province, Manitoba Hydro, in the decision making to put an extra 400 to 500 kilometres of line down the west side of the province and also extra costs for conduction processes, as well. The line loss alone, Mr.

Speaker, can also add up to many tens of megawatts of lost energy per year, just lost off of the lines. Line loss refers, of course, to the amount of power moving down a line that is lost into the atmosphere just because of the distance, and the longer the distance, the more loss there is on those lines. Of course, Mr. Ani Gole, a well-known professor of engineering, el ectrical engineering, at the University of Manitoba, whom I have met once or twice, Mr.

Speaker, and also mainly because of a connection to students that he had taught in the past and people that he works with today, has identified some of that line loss in a very accurate manner, a well-known man in his field, in regard to being able to measure power flow losses and power flow of all kinds. We need to look, of course, at new conductivity, new types of materials that would come forward to enhance greater conductivity. But no matter how you cut it, Mr.

Speaker , when you've got a line that's 500 kilometres longer than it needs to be, then we are in a situation where we're going to have unnecessary line loss. Now, the shortest, most practical route, and I would submit to the House and to all Manitobans, the direct line that would make the most sense in regard to helping other citizens in Manitoba, as well, Mr. Speaker, would be a line down the direct east side of Lake Winnipeg that we have today from the power development that is being spoken of for development by this government.

We would, certainly, push forward with Conawapa, Wuskwatim, provided there were markets for those products and, of course, to be able to move that power, you need to have transmission lines. Now, this government, this is the same government that during the election campaign last spring, said it would have a northern route on lines, and, of course, that was a line that would go direct from Conawapa down through Ontario, in that area, Mr. Speaker.

Of course, part of the reason for bringing the line down the east side of Lake Winnipeg was so that Manitoba would not lose control of the exports of the power, the valuable energy source that we have. We would be in a position to have a greater say in future export rates that we would get for the power that we would sell through a third bipole, bipole 3, transmission line from northern Manitoba. It would provide a line down the east side of Lake Winnipeg. It would increase our cap acity. A line down the east side of Lake Winnipeg would increase our security of that transmission system.

A line down the east side would help us create greater economic benefits for all Manitobans in the future by being able to

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1787 export more power and have a greater control over it, Mr. Speaker. A line down the east side of Lake Winnipeg, bipole 3 down the east side of Lake Winnipeg, would help more First Nations people in that part of Manitoba, as well. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that many of the reasons that the government states that they don't want to bring it that way is because of the boreal forest that's on that side of Manitoba, an area that the Premier (Mr.

Do er) has indicated he's divested his responsibilities on and given 16 chiefs the veto over one-seventh of the land within the province of Manitoba. * (14:40) I don't think that any premier should be looking at that kind of a dispensing of responsibility to any group of citizens in our province.

I think that, particularly when ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro are going to have to pay such a high cost, then we have to remember that this government is used to raiding Hydro in regard to the amount of money that it's taken out of it in the past, a bill, in fact, that they passed to take 75 percent of the profits out of Manitoba Hydro a few years back with the intention of picking up many more hundreds of millions of dollars than they did. Fortunately, due to a drought, there was one year when they weren't able to get any. Another year, because of low water levels, they only got $54 million.

The main year that they had a $200-and-some-million profit, they did take $150 million out, Mr. Speaker. So their track record is terrible in regard to accountability with the Manitoba Hydro as a Crown corporation in this province. So that's part of why Manitobans are still sceptical as to the motives of this government. It would very much appear that the line down the west side of the province, not between the lakes as many Manitobans felt would be the case, between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba but all the way around the west side of Lake Winnipegosis, down the west side of Lake Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, is an expense to Manitobans that they don't need to incur. We would still have greater security and control over the exports and the value of those exports in our Manitoba economy. Many, many good things could be done for our First Nations people on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, whether it's a road being built through that area, whether it's an access to many of the other facilities there, whether it's training that would be obviously provided to First Nations people in those areas.

The government has brought forth training programs in regard to the dams being built in the north that we support in those areas for those First Nations people. There would be an opportunity to do it in the line and the construction of a new line as well, but to put 500 extra kilometres of line in place, Mr. Speaker, is not a responsible move by any government. It's certainly a concern and a security situation in bringing these–the reason to come down the east side as well is from a security perspective, as I mentioned earlier.

You may run a greater risk of having blackouts if that line was to come down between the lakes, or even the extra 500 kilometres exposes you to much more circumstances of tornadoes, such as we had in 1996 where both bipole lines were almost ripped apart, could have put the power out for months if it had been severe enough. I think, in relation to the extra cost, Mr. Speaker, I have to close by saying that the line loss alone combined with the extra le ngth of the line, the extra cost, the hundreds of millions of dollars could well put this over a billion dollars very quickly.

Even at 5 percent there's about a $30 million extra interest alone, per year, never mind the line loss on an annual basis. I think the fact that the boreal forest is of concern–or maybe this is what the Premier wants to see as a legacy–I would close by saying that we could have both the boreal forest, a UNESCO program in Manitoba for the boreal forest, as well as a power line down the east side. Manitoba Hydro has indicated that. Others have indicated it.

Our U.S. export customers have indicated that they don't care which side of the lakes the line goes on and, you know, the list goes on and on of the people that are starting to look at this and say that it's a huge detrimental process. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. The honourable Member for Charleswood on a grievance. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I do rise on a grievance. There is growing concern in Manitoba and in Charleswood related to the NDP's decision to put a hydro line down the west side of Manitoba, and we do speak in objection to the

1788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 west-side line to this detour that has many things going against it. We object on the basis that it's going to result in massive financial, economic, environmental, and social damage to Manitoba. This is so wrong, Mr. Speaker, and according to many out there, this is the worst policy decision by this NDP government. This is so unfair to Manitobans and especially to our young people who are going to be stuck with a huge debt because of this. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba Hydro has been directed, against its advice, by the NDP government to construct a third high voltage bipole transmission line down the west side of Lake Winnipegosis instead of the east side of Lake Winnipeg and it does beg the question. Why is this Premier of this NDP government meddling with a Crown corporation in the first place?

This Premier has had an awful lot to say about what a government's position should or shouldn't be when it comes to Crown corporations, and yet I don't know if ever in Manitoba's history that we have seen a Premier meddle to this extent in a decision that should be made by a Crown corporation So what is his meddling going to lead to? What is his political meddling and his involvement in this going to lead to? We have heard, time and again, that the west-side route is 400 kilometres longer and that it's going to cost, so far what we know, an additional $500 million in added debt.

From all the people that are adding to this conversation out there, we know that this debt is climbing almost on a daily basis as more information becomes available. We know that line losses due to friction will also be higher on the west side which is contrary to the desire for energy conservation. So, while we see this minister liking to talk like he's green and trying to convince everybody that he's green, the greenest decision he could make would be to put that line down the east side and not the west side.

While he likes to convince everybody, including a lot of the American people that he seems to have on pedestals and looks at them as heroes and wants to be seen by their side all the time for photo ops, maybe what he needs to do instead is look more closely to what he's doing here in Manitoba. Instead of talking green, he should be walking green. He's not doing that. Even Bob Brennan, the head of Manitoba Hydro, admitted publicly that the east side is the preferred route from Hydro's perspective. I do have some sympathy for Mr. Brennan because I'm sure he's been put in an awful position. Mr.

Brennan, I've known years ago when he was a neighbour of ours, and certainly, I think he's going to have been put in a very tenuous position by this government by having to go along with a decision that he does not agree with. That is not a very, very good position to put the head of a Crown corporation in this province into.

I think this is sending out a horrible message not only in Manitoba about how this government addresses Crown corporations, but this cannot have a very good effect across Canada in terms of what kind of message this is sending out right throughout this country, and I imagine into North America as well. When we look at what the experts say, and there are a number of experts that have commented on this. I'm going to put on the record a number of comments made by experts. I have yet to hear this government come forward with their own experts to support what their positions are.

We have noted that, with this government, they have had changing positions on this since the beginning, depending on what they think flies better in one day will be their position of the day in terms of why it should be a west-side line. It's interesting to watch the Premier squirming around on his decision in here because he really doesn't have a sound reason for what he's doing. That is why we're seeing a lot of manipulating of information, a lot of spinning by him and his spin doctors in terms of what th ey are trying to argue in saying that the west-side line is a better line.

If we look at a civil engineer from the University of Manitoba, who I know wrote an

article in one of the local papers, and he indicated–he's an associate professor, actually, of civil engineering at the University of Manitoba–that the decision by the Manitoba government to move forward in principle with a third major transmission line down the west side of the lake is a trem endous policy mistake that flies in the face of all evidence and recommendations put forward by Hydro over the past 10 years. Yet we do hear this Premier try to convince the public with his huffing and puffing in this House about the fact that the Tories were not able to achieve a hydro line in the '90s.

The Premier knows darn well why that didn't happen, and he knew that there was an agreement with Ontario. We knew that Ontario broke away from that agreement. * (14:50)

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1789 Maybe what this Premier (Mr. Doer) needs to do is revisit some of that instead of trying to put misinformation on the record every time he stands in the House and makes comments about this. He knows why that line didn't go forward. He knew that a lot of good effort was being put in by the Province, by a lot of people in this province to make that line go, and he knows darn well what was the cause of that line not going forward. So he really needs to, sort of, I think tune himself up to what the reality of the situation is.

According to this associate professor, he also goes on to say, it is becoming clear that the disastrous policy is being dictated to Manitoba Hydro senior management by government. If there was ever a reason to grieve an issue in this House, it is definitely around the manipulation of what this Premier is doing to a Crown corporation in Manitoba and for all the wrong reasons. He has no valid reason, and the experts that are out there are even in support of that.

The associate professor says that the government's primary argument for the western transmission line is that the boreal forest on the east side of Lake Winnipeg in its entirety needs to be protected. This professor says this is a dubious claim given that the west side will traverse a larger amount of designated boreal areas than the east side. So how can this Premier without any expertise or any experts standing up to support him say what he's saying when the experts are saying the opposite? We have not seen this Premier bring forward any of those groups to stand by what he's saying.

This professor also indicates that Manitoba Hydro has already built a lower-voltage transmission line running along the east side of Lake Winnipeg to Poplar River and another southward along the east side to Warren Landing, which leaves a short segment between them. Well, if this is already happening, Mr. Speaker, why is this Premier not following through on what appears to be the right decision? There are others that have made comment out there, including Gerald Flood from the Winnipeg Free Press , calling this east-side story from soap opera to farce. We hear ot her experts out there, Dr.

Ani Gole, who is the NSERC Industrial Research Chair in Power Systems Simulation at the University of Manitoba, saying that this is not going to be in the province's best interest. We see a lot of the Aboriginal chiefs and their members on the east side now starting to want this. We see Elijah Harper and Brian Schwartz out there in support of doing what is right for the people of Manitoba. And, particularly, we see the Hydro CEO saying that the cost of the power line route will rise if this line goes down the west side.

Why should Manitobans have to bear the costs of this political decision by this Premier of this province when he is making a decision that is not in the best interests of Manitobans, is not in the best interests of the environment, is not in the best interests of anybody except maybe some of his American friends who won't even stand by him in support of his decision? So, Mr. Speaker, I think with those few comments, I would like to indicate that this is a serious issue and this Pr emier (Mr. Doer) is not doing right by Manitobans. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I’d like to announce that in accordance with rule 31(8), the independent members will have the opportunity to introduce the private member's resolution for consideration next Tuesday. Mr. Speaker: It's been announced that in accordance with rule 31(8), the independent members will have the opportunity to introduce the private member's resolution for consideration next Tuesday. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I just would like to make the announcement that we're going to have the Canadian Interment Camps resolution be considered next Tuesday. Mr. Speaker: It's been announced by the honourable independent member that they will be dealing with the Canadian Interment Camp. That's been announced. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if you could please call the following bills in this order: report stage amendment on Bill 13, followed by Concurrence and Third Readings, moving to Bill 3, then Bill 14, Bill 18, Bill 22, and Bill 6–pardon me, Bill 4. Mr. Speaker: Okay.

First of all, we will deal with report stage amendments on Bill 13 and when we're

1790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 concluded that order of business, we'll move to concurrence and third readings of Bills 3, 14, 18, 22 and 4. REPORT STAGE AMENDMENTS Bill 13–The Organic Agricultural Products Act Mr. Speaker: So now I'm going to call report stage amendment on Bill 13, The Organic Agricultural Products Act. Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I move, seconded by the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), THAT Bill 13 be amended as follows: (

a) by renumbering the proposed Clause 2 as Clause 2(1) and adding the following as Clause 2(2) Exemption for farm gate sales 2(2) Subject to the regulations, subsection (1) does not apply to a sale of an organically grown product if (

a) the product is sold by its producer directly to a purchaser for consumption by the purchaser or by others at the purchaser's expense; and (

b) the sale occurs at th e farm or other property where the product was produced. (

b) by adding the following after Clause 19(1)(n): (n.1) limiting the exemption under subsection 2(2) (farm gate sales); Mr. Speaker: It's been moved by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler), seconded by the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), THAT Bill 13 be amended as follows–dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Mr. Eichler: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to put some comments on the record about this proposed amendment which would provide an exemption on The Organic Agricultural Products Act for farm-gate sales.

When this bill went to committee recently, we heard an inte resting presentation from an organic producer. This individual–I'm sure there are several others in this situation in the province of Manitoba–sells organic products directly at his farm gate. He has cultivated a relationship with his customers over the years who visit the farm and learn more about how he grows his crops and raises his animals.

At one time of his operation, which was certified as organic, for a variety of reasons he chose not to recertify at this time, and as we know the hardship that's out there facing all farmers, we're sure that it was probably financial, Mr. Speaker. Because of a decision not to formally certify as organic producer, he is concer ned that the act as it is currently written might make it very difficult for him to continue with his farm-gate sales of organic grown products. This would have a negative economic impact on his farm.

He even noted that in the worst case scenario, he could be subject to hefty fines or even jailed by selling his product under the current legislation. I sincerely believe that it's not what the government had intended when it was drafting the legislation. No one wants to make farmers into criminals. We believe that all farmers do things in a way which is going to be meeting the legislation, and they want to make sure they comply to all rules and regulations set forward by the government.

I believe this producer has raised some legitimate concerns, and there is room for clarity in what is an acceptable practice when it comes to the sales of organic products in specific situations. By bringing the amendment forward, we offer some protection for producers who are engaged in farm-gate sales. At the same time, I recognize that there is growing interest in certified organic production in Manitoba and indeed across Canada. To help market the certified organic products nationally and internationally, the use of certified organic label would be beneficial in building customers' confidence.

They are receiving a product that adheres to strict production criteria. We look forward to new opportunities in the product for organic agricultural products in which there seems to be growing consumer interest. I ask the members for their consideration to this amendment, Mr. Speaker. I know that the minister heard the same presentation the night that we went over this bill.

There's the concern that we had and we feel this amendment is one that is going to pacify those that don't want to stay certified or become certified under the program, but it will, certainly, give the opportunity to still sell those products across the gate direct to their consumers. * (15:00)

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1791 Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I thank the member for the comments that he has put on the record regarding the sale of products that are not certified, Mr. Speaker. But, having heard his comments and having listened to the people in the organic industry, I want to tell the member that our government cannot support the amendments to The Organic Agricultural Products Act that he has proposed which is seeking an exemption for farm-gate sales of organically grown products.

I want the member to also know that, during the consultation on the proposed legislation, organic producers stressed very st rongly that such an exemption should not be allowed, that they wanted one uniform set of standards for the industry and that all products carrying the organic label be certified as such. I believe, Mr. Speaker, by backing away from this position, allowing for the sale of uncertified products direct to the consumer, under the organic name, would really be a step backwards. This would undermine the Canadian and Manitoba standards that have been set.

Thus, I believe that an amendment like this would cause confusion for the consumer as to the authenticity of the product. I want the member to also know that producers who choose to adopt the organic approach to production, but who do not wish to go through the certification process, will not be forced out of business.

They will simply have to use a product name that does not include the name "organic." So I say to the member, we've listened to people who have–and I've read the comments of the presenter, but I also want the member to be aware that there has been a lot of work done on this, both at the national and the provincial levels, and we cannot support this amendment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): I do appreciate the opportunity to participate in debating the proposed amendment of our honourable colleague from Lakeside.

This amendment is one that I do support because I, too, had the privilege of listening to the presentation from a long-term organic grower. Having had the experience as a pedigreed certified seed grower over the years, I understand about trying to maintain product quality and to assure those persons purchasing the product that they are indeed guaranteeing quality to which they are expecting.

What we have seen though, in our pedigreed seed industry, is farmer-to -farmer sales of seed that persons were referring to th e terminology "seed." It was incumbent upon our industry to not try and curtail or dissuade the farmer-to-farmer sales of seed, but we wanted to make sure that there was a distinction between certified seed and common seed. So what was entered into the process was to provide for legislation to make absolutely certain anyone using the terminology "seed" was going to be guaranteed a specific quality.

That is where we as an industry focussed on, was the terminology "seed." We did not try and curtail and make it unlawful for persons to sell to producers the common seed. But we did want to make sure that there was a differential knowing that th e farmer-to-farmer sales of production that was not inspected and not granted pedigreed, that we make it known that this was indeed common. But it was just as important to make sure that when persons we re purchasing seed there were standards employed.

Now, what I see in this amendment and two further to come in order to make the bill accommodating of farm-gate sales is that we want to make sure that the organic terminology is indeed maintained, but this allows for the individuals to inspect themselves rather th an have a paid registered inspector do so.

What we're basically providing for here is long-standing relationships that organic producers have with their customers and to make sure that they're able to continue on with that business, even though they are not expending the monies providing for inspection on an annual basis as well as the overhead that comes with the certification processes as I personally am most aware of.

Now, what we want to make sure of is that, although the organic component is indeed maintained, as we have all come to appreciate, it then is incumbent upon the person that is advertising common organic to make certain that the terminology "organic" has been adhered to and can be challenged, but it does not, by way of this legislation, mandate that the individual comply with the rigours of being registered and thereby their products being certified organic. So this legislation, I think, is very good.

It is time that we in the province of Manitoba indeed put the framework forward to guarantee that the organic process has been followed by producers when sales effectively are taking place through third party and the consumers of the organic product do not know

1792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 the producers and have to have an independent party attest to the organic product that is being sold as to its authenticity involving the production of that product. So I wholeheartedly support the legislation that the minister has proposed. However, I ask that she consider supporting this amendment to allow the direct, from-the-gate sale s whereby the individuals purchasing the product have first-hand knowledge about its production and are satisfied that the organic process of production has been adhered to. I thank you ever so much, Mr.

Speaker, and look forward to the support of this amendment and the two to follow. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is the amendment moved by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler) on Bill 13. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of the amendment, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the amendment, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr.

Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): On division, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On division. * * * Mr. Speaker: Okay, we'll move on to the second amendment. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), THAT Bill 13 be amended by striking out Clause 19(1)(j). Motion presented. * (15:10) Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, the regulations accompanying Bill 13 will allow the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) latitude to make a number of rules around organic agriculture in Manitoba. I believe that clause 19(1)(

j) should be deleted. As it currently reads, it would allow the Minister of Agriculture to regulate or prohibit marketing of organic product and to establish terms and conditions in governing that product. Mr. Speaker, I think this provision would give the provincial government too much power when it comes to how Manitoba's organic producers conduct their business. In other words, I don't think the provincial government needs to give powers that will allow them to become too involved in marketing of organic products or telling producers how to do that.

That is government's job in order to help establish markets, but not in marketing those products. I am opposed to the provincial government being involved in promoting organic production or trying to help these producers to gain access for new markets for their produc ts. However, I believe government needs to take the producer's place when it comes to determining how best to sell the products such as implementation of some sort of marketing board or agency. Producers should have a choice. Mr.

Speaker, I know that the minister has the best interests of the producers at heart when she talks about the organic bill, but I do know that (

j) should be deleted from this particular bill and would make the bill that much stronger. So, with those short few words, we look forward to the House putting this amendment to the bill, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Wowchuk: Again, with regard to this amendment, we have to say to the member that his proposal to remove clause 19(1)(

j) does not seem to make sense to me, Mr. Speaker. I do not see this clause as being problematic in any way. I really recommend that we stay with the wording. The clause is a standard one in many of our statutes. I know that the member opposite has expressed some concern about the government being involved, and he seems to be expressing concern about the possibility of a marketing board. Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1793 I guess I would ask the member to put clearly on the record if indeed he is opposed to marketing boards. That's not the intent of this legislation, Madam Deputy Speaker, but should it be that that was where the producers wanted to go, as I have listened to them in the past, I will listen to them in the future and work with them, but I believe that the removal of this clause would not be of any benefit, and I see no reason why we should take out one that is a standard clause in many of our statutes. Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): I do want to make some comments on this legislation and on the amendment that has been pr oposed by my colleague, the critic for Agriculture, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler). Madam Deputy Speaker, if you look at the clause that is being amended, and I'd like to just focus on the clause itself because we should understand what is being recommended here in the legislation, and this is all in the Regulations section, and 19(1) states: "The minister may make regulations" and then you go to (

j) and it says regarding regulating or prohibiting: "regulating or prohibiting the marketing of any organic product, and establishing terms and conditions governing that marketing;". Now, we live in a democratic, free society.

It is one thing to say that there should be standards for products that are being sold, but if you start imposing, by regulation, conditions which are going to either prohibit, or as this subsection says, prohibiting the marketing of any organic product and establishing terms and conditions governing that marketing, what you are saying is that the minister, by regulation, may in fact determine that it is in the interests of the government to have this product marketed through a single desk. It could also impose regulations that prohibit the marketing of this product to certain entities.

So it's an all- encompassing regulation, Madam Deputy Speaker, that if you look on the surface of it, it may seem benign. But if you look at the powers that it gives the minister, those are extraordinary and unnecessary. I don't think the organic growers of Manitoba asked for this clause. As a matter of fact, I have some organic growers in my communities and I have asked them about this bill, and by and large they support the fact that there should be some standards in terms of organic production.

They also know that it shouldn't be necessary to have a particular stamp on a product if you are selling it at the farm gate. It's just like selling a dozen eggs that are organically produced to a neighbour, and the neighbour knows that these are organically produced eggs but can't buy them from you as organically produced eggs because they must have the stamp. So what the previous amendment was to allow those individuals who have that organic egg or have that organic quart of milk, can sell it to a neighbour without having to go through the process of having the stamp put on that product as an organic product.

In this case, the minister has the power to regulate or to prohibit the sale of that product to an yone that she chooses or the government sees in their best interests. Now, when talking to organic producers, talking to those people involved in the industry, they feel like I do, that this is an imposition that is not required. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the minister needs to take a look at this

section again and needs to determine that in fact she needs to unshackle the chains that she's putting around organic producers in term s of where they market, how they market and the fear of prohibiting the marketing of a product. Now, I don't know where this kind of clause exists in any marketing regime that we have in this province or in this country. I don't know that a minister, by regulation, can prohibit my marketing of my product that I produce on my farm, whether it's organic or not, can prohibit the marketing of that to anyone at any point in time. Now, the Canadian Wheat Board, I know, can do that.

Of course, I know where the minister stands on that. If the Canadian Wheat Board does prohibit and we know– An Honourable Member: We stand up for farmers. Mr. Derkach: Then she chirps from her desk that she stands up for farmers. She stands up for those select farmers who belong to the National Farmers Union who have that narrow view, who have not taken the initiative to go out and find markets on their own, who haven't taken the initiative to go out and explore what the opportunities are but rely on an agency to market their product for them.

You see, we create a lazy society that way, Madam Deputy Speaker, because our producers need to be going to the next level. By creating that lazy society, if you like, people depend on somebody else to do their work for them. There are enough marketing agencies out there today that I as a producer should be able to go to them and say, what can you offer me for this product, instead of having to go through one entity.

1794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 In this particular case, that is exactly what the minister is proposing. She is proposing that she as a minister or any minister who is responsible then, will have the power, as the regulation states, to regulate or prohibit the marketing of any organic product and establish terms and conditions governing that marketing. So it gives her the power to not only prohibit, but it gives her the power to make certain terms and conditions regarding the marketing of a product.

So if I grow, Madam Deputy Speaker, potatoes that are organically grown, the minister now can impose terms and conditions on how I can market that product. * (15:20) Why should that be? As long as I meet the standard, as long as I meet the standard that has been set for organic production, then the marketing should be left up to me as a producer. Whether I go to an agency that markets organi c products, whether I go to a single desk, if you like, that markets products or whether, in fact, I do it on my own, I should have the flexibility and the freedom to do that.

Now, at this stage, I don't think the minister has imposed any terms or any conditions or any prohibitions in terms of marketing the product, but I don't understand why the minister would need that kind of a clause in this regulation, and she hasn't explained it. I know that in committee on this bill, that question was raised, but there was no answer given. There was no explanation given. If I'm wrong, perhaps the critic or the minister could correct the record by standing in their place and doing that, but I don't remember the minister explaining this to any satisfaction in terms of why this clause is in here.

How would it weaken the bill if this clause wasn't there? I don't think it would weaken the bill at all. The bill would still have meaning. The standards are still there. The people who were consulted on this bill, I think, have had input in this, and they, I think, understand the necessity for a bill like this in terms of ensuring that organic products produced in this province are produced to a certain standard.

But, Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't know any farmer out there who was asking for the minister to get involved in setting the terms and conditions when it comes to marketing or prohibiting the marketing of any product. Now, what would be the motivation to do that? Well, we have seen where this government is in terms of trying to manipulate the marketing of products in this province. They are out of step with where the world is going.

They are out of step with where other provinces ar e going, and they are imposing on farmers and producers something that is completely unnecessary in a democracy, Madam Deputy Speaker. So, with those few comments, I notice that my beacon is beeping, I'm going to have to–it's flashing– I'm going to have to curtail my comments, but suffice it to say that I would encourage the minister to look at this in a positive way and to, perhaps, put this clause on the shelf for the time being. If necessary, down the road, this clause can be, in fact, reintroduced, and she can bring in an amendment at a future time.

So I encourage the minister to look at it from the perspective of allowing producers to do what producers should do. Thank you. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I, too, would just like to put a few words on the record in regard to the amendment brought forward by my colleague from Lakeside, an excellent amendment, I feel. The removal of 19(1)(

j) would diffuse concern that was raised to me by some of the organic farmers even in the area of dairy products, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I know a great many constituents who are organic farmers, and they're doing a wonderful job of farming, whether it's the Boulanger family that was recognized as the Red River Farm Family of the Year from Grande-Clairière, the Scott family that established some of the certification and was very much a founder in the organic farming movement in Manitoba, and the Blacks, I know, that are one of the first in the dairy industry in Manitoba to have an organic dairy, as well, in the Turtle Mountains, Madam Deputy Speaker. All of these persons began their type of business because they wanted to change.

They wanted the freedom to make a change away from the traditional type of farming that many of us were involved in, that I was particularly as well. I had the opportunity to bring greetings at their organic farm annual general meeting back in Brandon here a week and a half ago or so, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was an honour to be asked by my constituents, who are leaders in this field, to bring a few greetings, and it was great to participate in them with the entertainment that was provided that evening, as well as Mr. Dan Needles, the author of many, various productions that he's had throughout Canada.

I just want to say how much I enjoyed that evening. But these people began their farming operations simply because they wanted to have the opportunity

October 30, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1795 of tackling what they saw as a new market, and they are successful. They have been successful. It's been hard. It always is, Madam Deputy Speaker, when you're starting out with a new industry and a new sector and you want to find markets for it. You've got to worry about the production side of it. You've still got the weather to deal with in agriculture, all of these, and the government regulations is the last thing you really want to have to worry about.

They're good when you're looking at the safety-net mechanisms and that sort of thing that we need in our agricultural community to provide stability in it, Madam Deputy Speaker, but from production levels of agriculture today that are involved in, whether it's production agriculture, marketing agriculture, resear ch agriculture–many of our young farmers are comi ng back with research graduate capabilities. We've got many of those in Manitoba as well.

So I think that taking out any concern that might arise from these people having to have the heavy hand of the Manitoba government imposed upon them through some kind of regulation or prohibition of the marketing of their products is, certainly, not what they told me they thought was the intent of this bill. So I would hope and relish the fact that I think that the minister would take into consideration the fact that this is about allowing these people to make sure that they continue to have the freedom to market their product in a manner that they wish.

If they collectively decide to get together to market that product, then that's their choice, Madam Deputy Speaker, and they feel qu ite comfortable in doing that. An organic group, an organic association, just like any other group, might be able to have that decision to do so at some point down the road. I just want to close by saying that I was proud to be able to take this bill–my colleague from Lakeside had asked me to speak to them because the Organic Producers Association of Manitoba, OPAM's office, is located in Virden, my hometown now and my constituency.

I was proud to be able to speak to them with this bill. I'm just relaying to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, some of their concerns around the bill. Other than that, they're very happy to see this bill coming forward to make sure that it does be parallel to what the federal government is doing and allows them to be able to market their certified product throughout the province of Manitoba which, of course, the federal bill allowed them to sell it anywhere in Canada but not in their home province. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, with those few words, I'd look forward to the government's passage of this amendment. Mr.

Faurschou: Madam Deputy Speaker, I once again would encourage the government to listen to the proposed amendment and adopt as it has been introduced into the House. I look forward to their support. It is definitely a concern of ours in regard to the powers granted to the government through this legislation, and it is very, very disturbing to myself as an agricultural producer. I know that the designs and the intent of this bill are to give the framework for an organic industry here in Manitoba.

Although in its infancy, perhaps with this legislation it will expand, and far more products will come forward in the future under this regime. However, once again I'm baffled because I know the minister across the way farms herself, and I'm curious as to whether she on ly uses certified seed on her operation or whether she purchases farmer-to- farmer common seed at times. For her not to adopt the previous amendment that would allow for that, I look to the minister and I ask the question of her, does she only purchase certified seed?

It would, certainly, warm my heart if she did, being a certified seed grower, and still continue to be, only on a smaller scale because as I can appreciate the responsib ility of MLA does take time and I must be dedicated to that. * (15:30) So I continue to pursue my pedigreed-seed production business, although on a smaller scale, but I very much look forward to the minister answering that question when next she stands, because if, indeed, she is purchasing only certified seed, then I will understand her not wanting to support the amendments as we've proposed.

But, if indeed, she does buy common seed, I would like an explanation as to why perhaps then persons cannot purchase common organic production. It's not to say that that production has not been raised or produced or cultured by way of certified organic practices; it's just that it has not been inspected by a registered inspector, and that's where it comes into the responsibility of the purchaser. The responsibility of

1796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2007 the purchaser can, at any time, go and see whether or not the production that he or she is going to be purchasing is being raised or produced through organic procedures and that is incumbent upon the producer to make absolute ly certain that they are able to, that a potential customer can come in at any time and can be assured that the practices are indeed fulfilling the organic requirements.

If they are not, then the person that is using the term "organic" will be liable because there has, through this legislation, and also, too, through other legislation, through the consumer and corporate affairs department, ability to enforce the law and to make certain that any advertising is not mis- representing the product to which they are selling.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, once again, I know the minister is listening, as she did the other night, to the presentation that was made, and I hope that she will, once again, listen to the debate in the House from honourable members that have, as she does, agricultural background an d are speaking from the heart and knowledge as it pertains to agricultural production. So I look forward very much to support from the government side of the House for an amendment that will indeed make this legislation fair and provide for the organic industry to flourish here in the province of Manitoba. Thank you. Madam Depu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-1-28b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 1st hansardpdf 28b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8dcd9b21e624f5bd333d62814a33f86ada347ff8

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).