VOL. 4 P RELININARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 10, 1979 NO. 20

April 10, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 830 MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! 0 0 0 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROWE: personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of A point of privilege. MR. W. 9. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I raise this point of privilege at the earliest possible opportunity. It concerns a very serious matter which was r~ferred to yesterday by my colleague, the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons).

It is only today, Sir, this morning, that I was able to obtain a transcript of certain remarks made at a public inquiry, which I believe, Sir, raised some grave questions, some grave matter of personal privilege involving myself. Mr. Speaker, I have here a transcript of a portion of evidence given by my executive assistant, Mr. Brian Tobin,at yesterday's hearing. I am referring to page 209 in the transcript of yesterday's hearing. And Mr. Tobin was being questioned by Counsel for the Commission as to why he did not tell the police that he had been delivering police reports.

But that is not the important matter here, Sir; I just use this by way of a preliminary. And he indicated in his evidence that, well, he did not directly know although he could speculate and conjecture on it. And the first answer to a question on page 209 reports Mr. Tobin as saying, ''I did not feel it was my place under the circumstances in my position as executive assistant to the Leader of the Opposition to be volunteering anything. And the question from the Counsel at that point is, ''So you withheld that information?'' 2127

April 10, 1979 Tape 830 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: And then Judge Soper, the Commissioner, Sir, enters into the matter and states: '*Question: tn other words, Mr. Tobin, in that particular aspect, you were conducting your own cover-up with Mr. Rowe, were you not? Were you not? "Answer: No, Sir, that particular aspect - ''Question: Yes, but you knew it was a police investigation. 'Answer: I knew the police were asking questions, yes. ''Question: Was that a police investigation? "Answer: Yes, I assume it was a police investigation. '·Question: And you were refusing to give information.

You did not make a full disclosure, did you? And you and Mr. Rowe are the people who are talking about cover-ups. "Answer: Pardon? 21.28

April 10, 1979 Tape 831 SD - l MR. W, RJJWE: 11 And Mr. Rowe is the person who has been talking about cover-ups and you were covering up Mr. Rowe, were you not? "No, I answered his question. "Question: Well, I understand that - sorry Mr. Woolridge. 11 Mr. Woolridge is the Counsel. Hr. Speaker, as a member of this hon. !iouse, I am flabbergasted and at a loss for proper words perhaps to comment on the fact that those statements were made or what to do about it. I believe wy rights as a member may be seriously affected in this case, certainly as an individual as well.

We have an bon. judge acting as a Commissioner drawing a conclusion before all the evidence is in, a conclusion which is certainly prejudicial to me as a member of this House, certainly indicates a bias of some sort towards me, and I am at a complete loss as to what to do about it at this point in time. It is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker - ~m. NEARY: }ffi.. W. ROWE: Shocking! - and I rise now, at the first possible opport:unity, to give notice of the fact that I have, I believe, a point of privilege in that my rights as a member of this House have been seriously prejudiced, breached.

I intend, Sir, as quickly and as soon as possible to conduct some research into the matter, consult experts on the matter, and at a very early opportunity to raise the matter in the House as a point of privilege to argue a prima facie case, and if permitted, if necessary, to make a proper motion based on the fact that I believe that my rights as a member of this House have been seriously prejudiced, seriously breached by these remarks by the Commissioner before that Royal Commission of Inquiry. I am sorry I cannot now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not have the wherewithal at this point in time to deal with the matter adto,quately 1 but I had to raise it at the earliest possible opportunity or lose my right to do so, and l raise it now by way of notice of the fact that I will be raising, am raising and will continue 21.23

April lU, 1979 Tape d)l so - 2 HR. W. ROWE: to raise, Sir, when 1 am in a position to do so, a point of personal privilege involving the fact that my rights were prejudicially affected, that there is bias and prejudice perhaps shown with regard to myself as far as that Royal Commission is concerned. aR. SPEAKER: (Hr. Ottenheimer) As hon. members are aware, when a member rises on a point of privilege, as the hen. Leader of the Opposition stated cust be done at the earliest possible opportunity, and obviously that condition is met, and then the second proviso is that the bon. member then does not, as the hon. gentleman did not, argue or speak to a motion but puts z1..;o

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 832 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): forward his statement as to in what respect he believes privilege was broken and then the onus is on the Chair to determine whether it is a prima facie case or not.

If there is a prima facie case, that means that the motion is given immediate precedence,without notice, without being on the Order Paper. ~bat I now have to do is to detemine whether,in one wording it is sometimes put"a prima facie has been establisheduor another wording,which }~y prefers" that being~ 11whether the matter of privilege is so involved as to give priority to a motion resulting therefrom." I will reserve my decision and will give it as soon as I have given the matter the reflection it requires and the study that it requires, and I will do it as early as I can. HR. SPRAKER: 1'-P... t.J',N.

ROWE: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. On the point of order affecting that, Mr. Speaker, in case I led the Speaker to misunderstand my position, I am prepared to argue, when I have an opportunity to do so,the prima facie case of breach of privile~e on my part. I indicated to Your Honour, that I only recently,a matter of hours, an hour or so was able to look at these remarks.

I had an indication that the House may not be sitting after today and if I let the matter go, did my researches and let the matter go on the fact of whether a prima facie case of breach of privilege had in fact been established, as I believe it has been, but if I let the matter go I would not be able to raise the matter ever again. What I would like to do, Your Honour,is to raise the matter by way of notice of the fact that I will be arguing the prima facie case and be drafting up the appropriate resolution at that time.

If Your Honour decides otherwise,then I am quite prepared to go ahead.But the point is, Sir, that I have had no opportunity to look into the matter,to amass any argument ~Jith rer.:ard to the priir .. 'l facie case involved, and I would think, Sir, that it would be unfair at this moment to decirle the matter as to the prima facie case or not. As I said,I am prepared to do so but I would like the opportunity to 21.31

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 832 nw - 2 MR. W.N. ROWE: study the matter further and to amass the arguments which are necessary. My sole purpose today is to raise the matter at the earliest possible opportunity so that I would not be deemed to be resting on my ri~hts and never be able to raise the matter again. !!R. SPEAKER (HR. OTTElffiEIMER): Just on a procedural ~Atter here,my understanding is the han. gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition, Zl.32

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 833 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): has now done what 1 irrespective of the period of time or amount of documentation he might have 1 has now done really everything required to be done by indicating in what way he alleges his privileges have been infringed upon. I will read from page 225 of Beauchesne, "Once the claim of a breach of privilege has been made it is the duty of the Speaker to decide if a prima facie case can be established.

The Speaker requires to be satisfied both that privilege appears to be sufficiently involved to justify him in giving such precedence or,as it is sometimes put, that there is a prima facie case that a breach of privilege has been committed, and that the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity.

It has often laid down that the Speaker's function in ruling on a claim of breach of privilege is limited to deciding the formal question whether the case conforms with the conditions which alone entitle it to take precedence over the notices of motion and orders of the day standing on the order Paper and does not extend to deciding the question of substance whether a breach of privilege has in fact been committed, a question which can only be decided by the House itself.n I point this out to point out that the actual argument, debate leading up to a decision is a matter which comes after a ruling that there has been a prima facie case established.

So I really think everything that needs to be done from the han. Leader of the Opposition's point of view has now been done. I think the matters which remain to be done are for the Chair to give the study and examination and whatever research is required in order then to advise the House whether a prima facie case has been established or not. I, to be perfectly frank, think that it will be difficult to do it today and 2133

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 833 NM - 2 t-IR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): may be unwise to attempt unduly to do it today because it is an extremely impor~ant matter and one which I would not be able to perform my duties and obligations to the House if I were to do it without giving it full consideration. Whether I can do that between now and six o'clock I frankly do not know. MR. ~V. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I \.;auld ask the page to convey this to Your Honour, which is the transcript referred to. 21.34

April 10, 1979 Tape 834 PK - 1 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hen. the Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in November of 1978 the receiver for the Come By Chance refinery, Peat, Marwick Limited, received two offers to acquire and reactivate the refinery. After advising the Province of its intention, the receiver accepted the offer of First Arabian Corporation on November 14, 1978, and commenced negotiations with its President,Mr. Roger Tamaraz,with a view to finalizing an agreement of sale by February 15, 1979.

In accordance with the terms of the letter of intent, the receiver agreed to desist from negotiations with any other party with respect to the sale,transfer or other disposition of the refinery. In December,1978 the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador retained the firm of chartered accountants of Throne Riddell and Company to assess the proposal of Avalon Refining Company Limited,owned by Mr. John M. Shaheen.

The Thorne Riddell report has been received and it concludes1aild I quote, "Based upon the review of the substance and reliability of the underlying evidence,in our opinion the Avalon proposal is not feasible. u Senior officials of the Department of Finance and Cabinet have reviewed this report and agreed with its conclusion. At this time I would like to table the Thorne Riddell report and an executive

summary of the same. In addition,there were a number of other aspects of the Avalon proposal which,notwithstanding Thorne Riddel1 1 s conclusion,rendered the proposal unacceptable to the Province. In particular, the Avalon proposal was contingent upon the Province of Newfoundland entering into a four year fuel oil purchase contract for approximately $79 million {Canadian) and guaranteeing $79 million of Avalon's bank loans. The Province is not \villing to assume such a financial burden. 21.35

April 10, 1979 Tape 834 PK - 2 Premier Peckford: In addition,it would be against government policy to enter into a long-term fuel oil purchase contract without the benefit of competitive public tenders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: One day after the Thorne Riddell report was received 1the Province received a telex 213o

April 10,1979 Tape Ko.835 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: from Mr. Shaheen,of which I will table copies,stating that the proposed fuel oil purchase contract was no longer part of his proposal and that other unspecified arrangements had been made. The substance of these arrangements is unknown at this time. However, the new proposed arrangements are clearly outside the ambit of the original Shaheen proposal as studied by Thorne Riddell. In the interest of insuring that the refinery is brought back on stream as quickly as possible,the Province takes the position that it will not entertain a new proposal from Mr.

Shaheen until the FAC, the First Arabian Corporation's proposal has been given a fair hearing. Turning to the FAC proposal, the First Arabian Corporation's proposal,a group of senior officials of the Department of Finance has been actively involved in the discussions and negotiations betveen the receiver 1 FAC, Kleinwor~, Benson Limited, the Export Credit Guarantee Department of the British Government, UOP Incorporated and the Federal eovernment with the goal of determining vhether the FAC proposal would be acceptable to the Province.

The government is pleased with the progress of the negotiations to date and has confidence in the ability of FAC to meet the Province's conditions precedent and to finalize a contract of sale given that, one it is not a requirement of FAC that the Province guarantee or otherwise provide funding for the project; two, the Province has been advised that a chartered bank, after seeing preliminary financial projections,is seriously interested in providing financing; three, the Province has been advised that FAC has reached a preliminary agreement with Ashland Oil Incorporated to operate the refinery and to purchase a substantial portion of the refinery output subject only to negotiating a definitive agreement and approval by the respective boards of directors and governmental authorities.

Ashland is one of the largest independ~nt petroleum refiners in the United States and a leading supplier to independent markets. Ashland has approximately 2137

April 10,1979 Tape No. 835 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: 32,000 employees and assets of approximately$2.3 billion. In 1978 the sales were around$5.4 billion. Number four; First Arabian Corporation has agreed to pay the claims of certain local creditors. Each local creditor who has filed a claim will be entitled to receive the full value of his claim up to a maximum of $100,000 to each to be paid within ninety days after start-up of the refinery. 2138

April 10, 1979 Tape 836 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Local creditors ~ill be defined as individuals resident in ~ewfoundland and private companies incorporated under the Newfoundland Companies Act. the majority of whose shares are owned by Newfoundland residents. The claims of individuals or companies associated with the two bankrupt companies will not be paid. An independent assessor will be retained to determine the proper amount of each claim. Thus, the Province is happy to encourage FAC and to actively participate in further negotiations toward finalization of a contract of sale and start-up of the refinery.

However~ the Province must be assured that once the refinery is sold and reactivated that there is no doubt that its operations will be viable and ongoing.

Therefore, the Province insists that prior to its approval of the sale of the refinery, the following conditions must be met: one, resolution of all matters being negotiated between FAC and the Province, for example, environmental standards, electrical rates, local taxes, confirmation of title to lands and access to the construction wharf: two, finalization of a binding letter of intent with Ashland Oil Incorporated covering the long-term operation and marketing of a substantial portion of the refinery's production; three, finalization of a reasonable arrangement relating to a crude oil supply for the refinery; four, finalization of a binding letter of intent with a reliable contractor to provide a reasonable assurance of rehabilitation and start up of the refinery; five, demonstration of the financial and operational viability of the refinery, together with assurances that FAC has arranged adequate financing for the project; six, finalization of a payment distribution agreement between and amongst the first mortagees and the second mortgagee; seven, finalization of an acceptable proposal to the 2139

April 10, 1979 Tape 836 EC - 2 PREHIER PECKFORD: local creditors by FAC. The Province maintains that timing is of essence in this matter. Delays will result in further deterioration of the refinery and increase the costs of maintenance and rehabilitation; thus, we must move quickly but carefully to conclude this matter. The Province insists that adequate information and documentation on the above matters be made available to the Province at least fifteen days prior to the sale of the refinery.

Thus, the Province announces its full support of, and its intention to actively work with FAC toward reactivation of the Come By Chance refinery. It supports FAC's request for an extension of the deadline for signing of the Contract of Sale to June 30, 1979.

April 10, 1979 Tape !lo. 837 DW - 1 J'RE!HER PECKFORD: I vould like to emphasize, ¥_r. Speaker. that govemnent has not accepted the First Arabian proposal. We will continue negotiations until we are satisfied that the conditions outline above are met,otherwise no deal will be made, In effect,what we are doing is rejecting one proposal, for very valid reasons,and engaging in intensive negotiations an the other.

However, as Premier of the Province I am confident that the June 30th. deadline can be met thus, notwithstanding the necessity to have the contract of sale approved by the Supreme Court of Newfoundland and FIRA,we can realistically look forward to the rehabilatation of the refinery starting in the Fall of 1979 and the start up of the refinery in the first quarter of 1981. Tilank you, }fr. Speaker. SO}!E HON. HnffiERS: XR. SPEAKER (MR. OTT~n!EU~R): SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! The .han. Leader of the Opposition. Hear, hear! !-ffi.

W.N ROWE: It is noteuorthy, Sir, that the copy of the Thorne Riddell report was not distributed beforehand and I did not have a copy beforehand from the government to study in order to make any remarks on the matter. The Thorne Riddell report is now becoming available for the first time to the public today,now, and therefore I have had to listen to what the Premier had to say. Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of paints, without getting into debate which we are not perrnitterl to do during a response to rinister's statements but we w-ill get into it later on this afternoon perhaps and certainly at a later date, there are a number of very, very serious questions about this whole matter that have to be resolved yet, a number of loose ends that have to be straightened out.

For example, I was under the im?ression,as I am sure anybody in New-foundland who was interested in the matter was also under the same impression,that there was a Peat-,uarwick and Hitchell report or a Kates,Peat ,'"'arwiek report - it was always confusing when it was put out over the air-into the First Arabian Corporation proposal,that

April 10,. 1979 Tape No. 837 DW - 2 MR. W.N. ROWE: there was a report done on that, an analysis done by that company and a report prepared on it, at least that was my understanding of the former Premier's statements on the matter. Kates, Pear, Manrl.ek,of course, Z1.42

\ April 10, 1979 Tape 838 PK - 1 Mr. W. N. Rowe: were employed by Kleinwort, Benson. And in a very premature way K1einwort, Benson and the receiver accepted the First Arabian Corporation proposal, perhaps even forced the government*s hand in the matter. But no one has seen this Kates, Peat, Marwick report or the Peat, Marwick and Mitchell report as the case may be, nobody has seen the report. The Thorne Riddell report was into the Shaheen proposal or the Avalon proposal1 only the same company did not analyze the two companieS proposals.

At best we have an analysis done by one company of First Arabian1 s proposal and other company of the Shaheen proposal, which of course is a matter of trying to compare chalk and cheese. There is no basis for a comparison between the two reports because nobody has seen the other report that was dane for Kleinwort, Benson of FAC as the Premier now in a very familiar way calls it, the First Arabian Corporation. Nobody has seen it.

And I ask the Premier whether in fact there is a report in existence and whether he intends to table that as well, so we can see what the shortcomings, if any, the problems, if any, as perceived by expert investigators of the First Arabian Corporation proposal may be? Until that is done, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this House can give a decision one way or the other. Let us have all of the evidence presented on the Table of the House so that every member in this House can study the documents. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N. ROWE : Is there a report or is there not?

Or where we misled in this House vthen we were asking in the House, t~r. Speaker, what the analysis of the First Arabian Corporation proposal was? Where we mi s 1 ed and just 1 ed down the garden path to keep us quiet and stop us asking questions - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2143

April 10, 1979 Tape 838 PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: - when they said there was a Kates, Peat, Marwi ck report? MR. NEARY: They are dictating to the government Peat, Marwick. They do not know what they are talking about. MR. W. N. ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. W. N. ROv/E: Mr. Speaker, that is a serious question. Peat, Marwick runs the Province. Now dealing with the Premier1 s statement made earlier this afternoon, here we have a government which for some reason or other comes out at this point in time and makes no final decision.

We were all led to believe again during the last weeks and months that today, or very soon, the government would make a final decision. MR. NEARY: No courage. I~R. W. N. ROWE: And now we see a statement, Mr. Speaker. which, to be most charitable about characterizing it, can only be characterized as wishy-washY,

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 839 NM - 1 MR. W. ROWE: lacking in decision, lacking in courage, a government which seems not to have the stomach to come to grips with the matter and make a decision one way or the other. We hear talk of encouraging. We hear talk of one company, the Avalon Company, Mr. Shaheen's company, we hear talk of that being booted out the door and no further negotiations will take place.

A very strange attitude for a government which is trying to act in the best interest of the Province to take, to cease and desist all negotiations with a company, a person who has devoted the greater part of his life to the Come By Chance oil refinery, and to encourage and give the impression of accepting a proposal which has about fifteen loose ends in it at this time as the Premier has indicated. Ashland Oil Company apparently gives no firm proposal as to the supply of oil. Is it not owned by the First Arabian? MR. NEARY: That is right. It is their own company. HR. W. ROWE: with a subsidiary company MR.

NEARY: MR. li. ROivE: MR. NEARY: MR. W. ROWE~ We may have a parent company dealing Right. - on one of the most important - And questionable at that. - one one of the most important aspects affecting this whole case. MR. NEARY: They tvere involved in a little bit of skulduggery a few years back. MR. W. ROWE: I would say that a guarantee from Ashland to First Arabian Corporation concerning anything would not be an arm's length or acceptable guarantee from the government's point of view. MR. NEARY: Ashland was the one involved in pay- offs a few years back. 2145

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 839 NM - 2 MR. W. ROVIE: \'le have a situation, Mr. Speaker, where at this late date, after months and months and months and months of negotiations,a dead- line of February 15th. was given there some time ago- we still have no firm financial arrangements lined up. We still see many conditions which have not yet been met by First Arabian Corporation. The one condition they seem to have met and are prepared to meet is the one which I and my colleagues put to First Arabian Corporation when they sat in my office downstairs some weeks ago and that concerns the local creditors.

We said any deal that is acceptable to the Opposition would have to have a proviso to look after the debts of the local creditors. And, ~~- Speaker, Mr. Tamraz said there in our office that until he came into the Province and discussed the matter that day he had no notion of the requirement to look after the debts of local creditors. And if we had not raised it publicly and privately with him I would say to this day there would be no condition to look after the local creditors. MR. SIMMONS: That is right. MR. FLIGHT: Crosbie is still (inaudible) . MR. W. ROWE: That is what he said. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I will draw my remarks to a conclusion because I realize that I am 214G

April 11), 1979 Tape 840 SD - l MR. W. ROWE: somewhat out of order, I am somewhat out of order in pursuing this. we will get a chance to debate it later on,but I did want to make the point, Sir, that the only firm committment seems to be that and, of course, that is not firm because the Premier requires other guarantees on that as well. The only question I can ask, Mr. Speaker, by way of

summary is: Why have not the conditions been met yet,after months of negotiations,if First Arabian Corporation is serious or are they dangling the government on a string? Why has the Shaheen group been booted out the door unceremoniously, no further negotiations, when we have not seen any report of the First Arabian proposal as done by Peat, Harwick and Hitchell Company which may draw the same kinds of conclusions, Mr. Speaker, as the Thorne Riddell Report is reputed to draw concerning their proposal'l Mr.

Speaker, the people of this Province, I do not think, are being dealt with in a straight forward fashion on this matter. AN HON. MID-1BER: Hear, hear. MR. W.

ROWE: I think, Sir, there are some serious questions that arise in the public mind about this whole matter and I think that this statement here today, Sir, by the Premier is merely designed to stop people from getting in an uproar over the government 1 s foot dragging, over tne lack of action, the lack of decisiveness, to try to give an indication that the government is doing something about this whole matter of opening the Come by Chance Refinery when in fact, Sir, we are no further ahead today than we were six months ago on the opening of the Come by Chance Refinery. SO!-fE HON. HEMB£RS: Hear, hear. 21.47

AprU 10, 1979 Tape 840 SD - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS HR. SPEAKER; (Mr. Ottenbeimer) MR. S. NEARY: Hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker. I have here in front of me a petition signed by 2,650 residents in the electoral district of LaPoile and I want to table it in the House. It has to do with the proposed increase in electricity rates. I will read the prayer of the petition. Mr. Speaker, which I think is self-explanatory, It says: "Whereas Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro have announced their intention of asking a twenty per cent increase in rates for electrical power produced for sale to Newfoundland Light and Power; and

whereas Newfoundland Light and Power always paas on to consumers any increase in rates they pay for power; and

whereas consumers already feel that the rates for power are alreudy unfair in their Oasic structure; and

whereas both of these corporations already have ample latitude within their budget to absorb higher costs of production given their recent profit margins, we,the undersigned citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador,do petition the Newfoundland Government and the Public Utilities Board to deny any request for rate increases by Newfoundland Hydro." I might point out to the House that the majority of these 2.650 citizens who signed this petition reside in the Channel - Port aux Ba&que area.

There may have been other people from outside Channel Port aux Basque who signed the petition because it was put around in the various stores and supermarkets and the shopping mall and the post offices, I believe, and a couple of other places in Channel-Port aux Basque so people from the Codroy Valley and my han. friend's district probably signed this petition. I did not have time to go over it, scrutinize it carefully,but I am sure that you could find signatures of people here who reside in my han. friend's district. Now, Hr. Speaker, what can I say in support of this petition? What can I say?

Everything but everything that can be said about the increase in electricity rates ZH8

April 10, 1979 Tape 840 SD - 3 MR. S. NEARY: has been said in support of other petitions. We must be getting up close now, Mr. Speaker, to a 100,000 signatures, 100,000 people in this ?rovince who are objecting to the increase in electricity rates for the simple reason that people cannot cope with the situation, especially people on fixed incomes like senior citizens and people who have no income or low income. It is a terrible situation, Sir, and we heard the han.

Premier, several times since he won his election, come out and state that he is going to be a man of action, he is going to do things, he wants to keep the House open, he wants to get into the House so he can make decisions and do things for the people of this Province. And here they are faced with increases in electricity rates and what does the hon. gentleman do? The bon. gentleman has already had one vacation;now he is going to take another one. l-Ui. SPEAKER (Mr Ottenheimer) Order, please. L must point out that the han. member is getting into the area of debate which is precluded by the rules. HR. S.

NEARY: }~. Speaker, what I am attempting to say here,and I do not

April 10, 1979 MR. NEARY: embarrass Your Honour, Tape 641 EC - l wish to break the rules and but 7 Sir, we were told that we were going to have action on the problems that face the people of this Province, that the ordinary people are confronted with in this Province. We are going to have action alright! When are we going to get the action? The action is not down in Florida or down in the Bahamas; the action is here in this House and in this Province - that is where the action is, Sir, and that is where we want to get action.

People are completely frustrated, bewildered, discouraged, disillusioned, can not cope with this situation, Mr. Speaker, and yet the government remains silent. One hundred thousand or more citizens have presented petitions to this House and their plea has fallen on deaf ears. My standing here today is as a voice crying in the wilderness. The government have no intention of doing anything about it· ''Pack her up now, 'Brian', boy, close her down!

Shut her down and take off!' People who live in electrically heated homes cannot pay their bills, they are going in arrears- I talk to people every day - going in arrears, owe several hundred dollars after the Winter in electricity bills that they cannot pay, Mr. Speaker. It is a crying shame, Sir! And as I said before, Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to debate this issue, but I would say that if the new Premier wants an issue to go to the people on, there is the issue - electricity rates.

We, on this side of the House, intend to put a freeze on for five years if we become the government of this Province, as compared to this crowd who are going to sock it to the people. Let her rip, sock it to them, give her all the traffic can bear. And that is not good enough. Mr. Speaker. And if the hon. gentleman wants me to tell the House where the money will 21~0

April 10, 1979 Tape 841 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: come from to put the subsidy on - the han. gentleman is shaking his head - just give me leave when I am presenting this petition and I will tell the han. gentleman where to get the money - cut out some of the boo~e parties and some of the foolishness and extravagance and waste - MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: - and helicopters. Order, please! I must point out, the bon. gentleman is persisting in getting into debate and the rules require that he confine his remarks to the prayer of the.petition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I cannot help, Mr. Speaker, getting emotional about this issue. We have been three years now, three or four years in this House - I believe we have been presenting petitions since 1974 - almost five years, Sir, and the people of Newfoundland have begged the government - because it is the government, Sir, it is the government, it is not the Public Utilities Board - it is the government that makes the decision. The decision is made down on the 8th Floor in the Cabinet room. Going through a hearing at the Public Utilities Board is merely a routine procedure, it does not mean anything.

The government make the decision. All the Public Utilities Board does is rubber stamp the request of Newfoundland Hydro and it is the government who make the decision, the Premier and the ministers on the 8th Floor. So I hope, Sir, that message gets out to the people, and I hope the hon. gentleman will put it to the test soon so that we can get this matter settled. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

April 10, 1979 Tape 841 EC - 3 HR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Conception Bay South. The han. the member for MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, if you would be kind enough to use your position to silence some of the Yahoos opposite while I address myself to a very important matter in this Province, the petition as presented by our bon. friend. For those opposite - not all - it is a laughing matter. Obviously people in the galleries can see this. But it is no - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: You are aware, Mr. Speaker, that my time is limited, and could I be heard in silence? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The han. gentleman wishes to be heard in silence. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, the petition that is presented by my han. friend is one of many that have been presented. Fortunately, I can say that the han. the Premier some weeks or months ago on television indicated publicly that he was aware that it is an important social matter in this Province, one that is affecting a lot of people, and the result is, I can assume, that he obviously has received the same kind of information from as many sources, perhaps, as we have.

This situation is not one that is a minor matter. it is something now where you have people of all political stripes. It has nothing to do with political parties or anything anymore, it Z152

Aprt1 10,1979 Tape No. 842 AH-1 !!R. NOLAN: has to do with an a~esome financial burden that is falling on people in almost every home in this Province whether they live in Bonavista, Conception Bay South, Labrador or anywhere else. If there were such a thing as a referendum,as I mentioned the other day,on this matter,any government~no matter who it is,who is in a position of authority and power with the Newfoundland Hydro under their administration and were not clearly prepared to take a great public stand on this would be immediately dismissed. There is no question about that at all.

And this is a matter now where we have had, as we have indicated,about 100,000 or more people who have sent in petitions on this matter since 1974 and they have been tabled in this House. It may not be a feasible idea,buc this afternoon we talked, the bon. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition,concerning the oil refinery deal in Come By Chance. It may or may not be feasible but is it possible that whoever the refinery goes to,whether it is First Arabian or Mr.

Shaheen, is it not possible perhaps because of their dealing in oil,which very few of us have any real in-depth knowledge about~that there could not be a deal to get oil perhaps at some kind of a cheaper price somevay along the line through one of their sources that could be beneficial for Newfoundland Hydro and so on?

I do no know • All I am saying is I am reaching out, grasping for answers to a problem that is affecting so many people so you have to look at every single possibility where the people of this Province can be spared from the enormous burden that they have now financially in attempting to provide heat and light. And it is incumbent then upon us as members of the House of Assembly to take every opportunity to address ourselves to this problem. If we do not,then we are all in serious jeopardy as elected officials in ths Province-as we should be.

Because as the Premier indicated,and rightly so, it is a very serious social problem that ~e have here today in this Province and it is not one we can try to speak out off both sides of our mouth on, This is a· situation now where there has 2153

April 10,1979 Tape No. 842 AH-2 MR. NOLAN: to be a statement very soon, publicly,by those in authority as to what can be done to help alleviate this problem. This is not just another petition,although you would think from some of the response we have had in the past that you are probably not going to get any more of a response than we have had. It is a serious matter, it is an urgent matter~ and the people are demanding now that someone in authority reply to the anguished cry that has been coming from them since 1974 in petition after petition after petition.

And we dare not continue this session of the House of Assembly without addressing ourselves publicly to it, not just in petitions but in perhaps a full-length debate and more importantly we have got to have a decision as to what can be done and how we are going to do it. It cannot wait any longer. Do not think that because the warm weather is coming on that we can sneak in a few more increases and a few people get mad at Newfoundland Light and Power and then it will be forgotten again until the cold weather comes in the Fall and Winter. It will not. The fix is in on this with the people of this Province.

There is no question about it; they know. You can make all the grand political statements anyone wants to make but the people out there know what the issues are and this is one burning issue and nobody can duck it. So I certainly support the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) MR.W.ROIIE: Han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition signed by 2,650 peerle who put their names on the document, the petition having beem circulated by the town of Channel-Port aux Basques, a petition, Sir, which decries the already high rate and costs of electricity for domestic users, for homes in this Province, and, Sir, which pleads and beseeches, pleads with and beseeches the government not to impose any greater financial burden on the people of this Province with regard to electricity 21.54

April 10,1979 Tape No. 842 AH-3 MR.W.ROWE: than they are already staggering under and struggling under. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a segment of our society who could not care less if electricity rates 2155

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 843 NM - 1 MR. W. ROWE: go up or not, it makes no difference. But, Sir, there are other people in our Province today, especially older people, elderly people, especially people who are on small incomes or no incomes at all who cannot stand, Mr. Speaker, neither they nor their families, they cannot stand any further increase in the cost of electrical rates. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the government agency, the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Corporation,was not responsible in any way for the predicament that a lot of people in this Province now have themselves in there might be less of an argument to be presented against increases in electrical rates. But, Mr. Speaker, for a solid ten years in the 1960s the predecessor, the same corporation, the Power Commission and Newfoundland Light and Power cornpany,perhaps goaded into it by the Power Commission,went the length and breadth of this Province encouraging people to put electrical heat in their homes MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.

NOLAN: electrically. HR. W. ROWE: MR. NOLAN: Heat better and cheaper - it is going to be much cheaper. That was the ad. MR. t-V. RONE: The han. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) remembers it, Sir. He was probably working in television during that period of time and remembers the ads and the commercials, Sir, which 11 sucked people in" is not too strong a term, into getting electrical heat put in their homes, many of them.

And the argument that electrical heat now compared to oil heat may not, in my opinion, does not hold water because many of these people around rural parts of our Province were using wood and coal, wood for heating their homes. Young married people coming out, who would have had their homes 2156

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 843 NM - 2 MR. W. ROWE: heated perhaps by wood and coal,were encouraged, bamboozled, cajoled by the government agency, the Power Comrnission,and Newfoundland Light and Power Company into getting involved with electrical heat because it was soing to be cheaper, more efficient and cheaper and they got it, Sir. Hundreds and hundreds of families around this Province got it because they were looking for a cheap method of heating their homes, only to have the government in the past, since 1974 or before, since this administration took over, Mr.

Speaker, to have the government increase by at least 100 per cent,and maybe more, the cost of electricity to homes in this Province. Mr. Speaker, the people were misled. The Power Commission perhaps had good intentions but when this government came in these intentions were certainly turned around and the people were treated in bad faith and many families in this Province are now suffering as a result of the high electrical rates. My hon. colleague said that it is one of our policies to put a freeze on increases in hydro­ electrical rates as far as the Power Corporation is concerned. Mr.

Speaker, I have said that many times and I reiterate it here now, that if this Party does nothing else by way of presentation to the people of this Province of our policies and platforms, if we stood on nothing else, Mr. Speaker except that - MR. NEARY: and try to - MR. W. ROWE: favour possible - MR. NEARY: MR. W. ROWE: MR. NEARY< And they dare not copy it either - we would be doing the greatest - try to parrot what we are saying. - to the people of this Province. They will try to copy it. 2157

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 843 NM - 3 MR. W. ROWE: I expect the other party, Mr. Speaker, to put something in their platform along those lines. MR. NEARY: An election gimmick. They will try to copy it. MR. w. ROWE: But it will be treated as the election gimmick it is. We have had that kind of promise before. MR. NEARY: The tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle is a good example of that. MR. w. ROWE: But, Mr.

Speaker, if we make no more commitments to the people of this Province than that single one that we will not allow the electrical rates to go up insofar as it is possible because of the control we have over the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation, they will not go up. And, Mr. Speaker, as far as the private distribution company is concerned, Newfoundland Light and Power Company, we will be watching that very closely as well and if there are any increases which are to the further disadvantage of the people of this Province something will be done about that as well. We cannot afford, Mr.

Speaker, to allow power costs to families in this Province go up any more and I support this petition wholeheartedly, Sir, and I would like to see some government members speak 2158

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 844 DW - 1 HR. W,N. ROWE: to it, Sir, but they have been noticeably and conspicuously absent as far as their support for this policy is concerned. ~. SPEAKER (}ffi.. OTTENHEIHER): 'ms . MCISAAC: The hen. member for St. r~orge's. Mr. a few words in support of this petition. Speaker, I would like to say I think my hon. friend for LaPoile (Hr. !1eary) is correct in stating that some of the names on the petition are probably from part of my district in the Codroy Valley.

However, there is also a petition being circulated completely throughout the district which will be coming in and I am sure that that too will reflect the feelings of the people in the other part of the district. I do not know what the solution is but I certainly know that the people of this Province cannot afford, cannot stand another increase in electrical rates. The han. Leader of the Opposition in his comments referred to the people being more or less sucked in to installinr, electtic heat. I a~ree with him 100 per cent.

I was one of the people who listened to all of the advertise­ ~ents and believed that electric heat was going to he cheaper. we had an estirr.ate done and the estimate - I do not remember the exact figures but it was somewhere>in the vicinity of $400 a year that our house could be heated for. l.Jell, as I stated last week in supporting one of the petitions,my bill last month, the month before now,was $175 and $175 a month is ~oing to add up to a lot more than S400 a year. This was in 1970 or 1971 that we had electric heat installed.

So it is certainly escalating way out of pronortion.Titere is no way in the world that people on low incomes or fixed incomes-or no income­ can keep up with it. They just cannot do it. There may be ways to do it and I would suggest that we take the bull by the horns. This is gettinr. out of control and goverrment must have some control over it. I do not know if we are not payinp; for that $15 nillion monutr.ent that is sitting in Stephenville that to my knowledge has not been in 21.59

April 10, 1979 }fRS • HC ISA.\C : MR. S. ~RY: }ffiS • MCISAAC: Tape ~!o. 844 DH - 2 operation since it was put there. No, that is right: As far as I am concerned it is a complete waste of money and from what I am told it is a $15 million monument. Now, somebody has to pay for that and I believe it is tax­ payers of this Province are the ones who are paying for it.

And another way that I think we may be paying is through the vehicles; for instance? just about every employee with Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland Hydro, just about every employee is driving a government company vehicle and the taxpayers of this Province are paying for that. So there has to be some controls put - HR. S. NEARY: They are all air-conditioned too, nothing but the best, ordered in special, a special make. HRS. '1CISMC: Oh, nothing but the best, nothing but the best,and they even take them on vacation,! am told.

W~en they go on vacation that vehicle is taken home and parked in their yard,or taken with them if they are around Newfoundland. The whole system is being abused. But if that was private enterprise you would not see all the employees going around in company vehicles. There is no way in the world that that would happen. But it is happening. Just about every employee or every second employee is running around in a company vehicle~burning company gas, parking in the shopping mall area parking lot and going and doing their shopping with the government vehicles or with the company vehicles. MR. S.

NEARY: do not use the school buses. HRS. MCISAAC: Back and forth to school; they Anywhere and everywhere they are using them for you na~~ it and they use the company vehicles for it. HR. S. NEARY: school buses. Their kids do not use the

April !0, !979 Tape No. 844 DW - 3 HRS • MCISAAC: And we end up paying for it. So there must be some way that this can be stopped and I think.that the only way it can stop- it is fine for putlic utilities, the Board of Public Utilities to make the decisions, they look-at it, 'Sure you can have an increase'. But I think that since the government of this Province has control over Newfoundland Hydro that they are just going to have to take the bull by the horns and take a look at what is going on, take a look at the waste,the extravagance and realize that it is the taxpayers of this Province who are paying for it.

And it is no laughing matter. I have seen -not since I have stood I have to say t have not seen anybody snickering-but across the House when the bon. member was speaking there was conversations going on and there was people sitting there snickering and joking. It is not a joke~ It is by far a serious situation and it may very well get out of hand if it is not taken in hand and taken in hand very shortly and I would like to see the Premier of this Province, the new Premier of this Province take the reins and straighten out Newfoundland Hydro and Newfoundland Light and Power. Thank you. 2161

April 10, 1979 Tape 845 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (~R. OTTENHEIMER): The hon.member far Burgee-Bay d 1 Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to say a word of support for the petition presented by my colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) with the 2,600 names. As he has reminded the House, it is just the latest number in a great number of names that have been tabled in this House on this very important subject. Indeed, there is no other issue that has had so frequent representation to the House as this particular matter or representation by so many people in all walks of life across this Province.

My colleague for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac) hits at what may well be the root of a good part of the problem here, and that is that monstrosity, that insult to humanity,that inefficient,wasteful,top-heavy bureaucracy called Newfoundland Hydro. It is a monstrosity. It is an insult to the people of this Province. If someone, somebody had the Vinancial wherewithal to prepare a case before the Public Utilities Board -and let us keep in mind, Hr. Speaker, that there are two bodies which have the wherewithal, Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland Hydro.

I am not talking about these- if there were a third body, a body representing the many thousands of people who sign these petitions, who had the financial wherewithal to prepare a proper case to go before the Board, a case which would analyze the cost compotents of the cost of a unit of electricity,! believe they would find, Mr. Speaker, I believe that group would find, if they had to research to do so,that a good chunk of the spiraling costs can be labelled with one word, abuse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right! Right! MR. SIMMONS: Abuse of vehicles as my colleague has mentioned. MR. NEARY: Helicopters. MR.

SIMMONS: They are not unique in that respect, Mr. Speaker, If they operate by example it is hard to blame an employee,! would say to my colleague- I am not condoning it- but it is hard to blame an employee for using his truck to do his shopping if the Premier of the Province is using the aircraft as a private vehcile, 2162

April 10, 1979 Tape 845 PK - 2 Mr. Si1m1ons: if the Cabinet ministers are using helicopters for personal reasons. MR. NEARY: Going to weddings and so an. MR. SIMMONS: The example of abuse is there, Mr. Speaker, it is getting condoned at the highest levels of government. That is not to condone what they are dain~ in Hydro. It is to show that it part of a pattern of abuse, the kind of abuse, Mr. Speaker, that has got to stop in the interest of keeping down the cost of electricity and in the interest of basic integrity alone. It has got to stop, this abuse.

And we are paying the bill, we are bearing the brunt of it, Mr. Speaker, because we are dealing with a very callous and uncaring group of people. That is why the cost of electricity keeps going up. Stunned decisions, abuse, the clear impression that somehow they are above it all, that somehow they are answerable to nobody. And they are right~ because the way we set it up now they are ans\'lerable to nobody in effect. Oh,the theory is there, Mr. Speaker, but who are they answering to? A bunch of fellows who want to cover their own abuses, that is who they are answering to.

So we never get to hear the facts about what really goes on in Newfoundland Hydro~ and therefore, Mr. Speaker, we never get to know what are the real cost compotents involved in the increasing cost of a unit of electricity. say it is high time \Ve begin to find out. It is a disgrace. It is an insult. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. predict there will be many more, until somebody has the gumption to do something about it. I doubt this government has the gumption to do so. I know that they have powerful motivations during election time.

One electrical, electrifying motivation they had cost this Province $110 million - MR. NEARY: Right. MR. SIMMONS: - on the Lower Churchill shemozzle, and I predict that they wi11 have other electrifying ideas like that come next election. Let them put their money where their mouth is now, t1r. Speaker. 21.G3

April 10, 1979 Tape 845 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Do not for0et that gas turbine. MR. SIMMONS: Let them come to the aid of the people of Newfoundland now when they are needed. not when they are trying to buy a few votes. The gas turbine, my colleague mentions. over there in Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order, please! I think the han. member has strayed quite some distance into the area of debate and I would ask him to confine his remarks to the Drayer of the petition. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to state a few simple facts of the case, Sir. AN HON. MEI~BER: Very simple. MR.

SIMMONS: A few simple facts. The simpliest fact of all of course is that this particular government is

April lO, l97 9 Tape 846 EC - l MR. SIMMONS: negligently and grossly ducking its responsibility on this crucial issue. When it became political opportunism for the nov Premier to make a statement, he made a statement some fast then, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: -during the leadership, if you remember. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! What does he have to say now? Order, please! I think the han. member is aware of the ruling of the Chair just a few minutes ago and I would require the han. gentleman to observe it. MR.

SIMMONS: I apologize abjectly, Sir. It is like my colleague just to my left - at least physically. I say quite seriously and quite candidly, Mr. Speaker, that it is nat any wilfulness on my part to put the Chair in an awkward position, but a wilfulness on my part to lay the case squarely before us because it is high time that this government did something about it. Enough talk, now where is the action from this particular government? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman and lady for supporting the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: The Chair will not require, of course, all presenters of petitions to express their thanks to the House for its support. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKHAN: NOTICES OF MOTION The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Amend The District Court Act (1976), 11 (Bill No. ). 2165

April 10, 1979 Tape 846 EC - 2 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEE!l GIVEN MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker y some days ago I promised to table the details surrounding the Auditor General's comments in his latest report with regard to the government's use of a consultant for special events. I would like now to table that information which includes the details of monies paid to the consultant from September, 1976 to March, 1978. MR. NEARY: The Bob Cole contract.

PREHIER PECKFORD: If the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. 9eary) would just cease and desist for a few minutes, there are a couple of points I would like to make with regard to this situation. The government has placed a freeze on payment of outstanding invoices from the consultant. This freeze affects invoices totalling around $8,000 covering services rendered during the calendar year, 1978; secondly, I have instructed the Department of Finance to review every invoice submitted by the consultant and to take steps to insure every payment was properly documented; and finally, ~r.

Speaker, as I mentioned in the house, the consultant is no longer retained by government and we do not anticipate a requirement for similar consultants in the future, as I feel the necessary expertise already resides in government. So I table that as I promised. HR. NEARY: Will you table the termination? PREMIER PECKFORD: No. I do not have a copy of the termination, but I can get that for the bon. member. That is that one. And then I also promised to table the contract of Mr. Cole, the Director of the Action Group, and I so table his contract. :1R. :iEARY: What about the Frank Petten contract? Do we get that?

Z1G6

April 10, 1979 Tape 846 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) can get every single contract that has been negotiated by government for any person employed by government. MR. NEARY: And the list of loans (inaudible) RDA? MR. SPEAKER; (Hr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! MR. HOUSE: The bon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, there has been a number of questions on the Order Paper for the Minister of Health that have been laid on the table by the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and I have the answers to five of these, number 27, 28, 30, 31 and 37.

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. !1. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the bon. the Premier a number of questions concerning the statem~nt he just made on the Come By Chance refinery. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier undertake to table in the bon. House the report or analysis done of First Arabian Corporation by Kates, Peat, Harwick or Peat, Harwick and Mitchell, whichever firm was employed to do such an analysis? ~' SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREtHER PECKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, I will table all reports that are ava1lable 1 and have no caveats or no conditions attached to them,in this bon. House, as it relates to all matters dealing with the refinery, and, therefore, if there is a statement or a decision by Peat, ~arwick earlier to choose, and Peat,Marwick chose between the two proposals and chose First Arabian, 21.G7

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 847 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: if that information is available without any conditions attached to it, something that would prevent it that I would not know about 1 we11 then I am only too happy to present it to the House. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: I can only assume from the Premier's very vague answer, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier himself has not seen the analysis done of the First Arabian Coporation by Peat, Marwick and Mitchell, would that be correct? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the government has been, as my statement indicates, been talking to the First Arabian Corporation and the principals involved in that proposal and know the details of the proposal to date and if the hen. Leader of the Opposition wishes to do certain things which seem to him to be valid then he is free to do so but I can only reiterate that we have at our disposal information relating to both proposals to such a degree that we were able to make a decision about one not being proceeded with and the other one perhaps being proceeded with. MR. NEARY: direct you what to do? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.

ROWE: But were you told? Did they The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, would the han. the Premier answer the question as to whether or not there is in existence a report in physical form to Kleinwort Benson 1 which the government may have a copy of, dealing with the proposal by First Arabian Coporation? Is there a report or analysis, a physical document dealing with it that the Premier has read and which can be tabled in this House? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. 2:168

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 847 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: There has been no analysis in the same way as the Thorne Riddell report was done. MR. NEARY: What? PREMIER PECKFORD: There has been a decision by Peat, Marwick - MR. NEARY: What a scandal. PREMIER PECKFORD: - to accept one or the other and what the government is now saying today is that we have had two proposals, one we have a report on, the other one we are still negotiating to see whether that proposal is of any consequence or not. MR. NEARY: You are being told what to do. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Qttenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: l1r.

Speaker, has the government gotten Thorne Riddell or any other reputable firm to make the same kind of an enquiry, an investigation into the proposal of PAC, the pet term now adopted by the Premier concerning t~at corporation, the First Arabian Corporation, has the government gotten Thorne Riddell to look into the matter with the same thoroughness as they did with the Shaheen proposal? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, back some time ago, as I mentioned in my statement, the Peat Marwick receiver received two proposals, one from First Arabian Corporation and one from Avalon Refining 1 and they made a decision, Peat Marwick made a decision as to which one of those proposals they found acceptable and likely to see the reactivation of the Corne By Chance refinery. As a result of their decision there was a lot of discussion, public debate as to whether the Avalon Refining proposal really got a fair hearing, that for some reason Peat Marwick might not have given Avalon 21ij9

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 847 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORO: Refining a fair shake. The Government of Newfoundland 1 aware of this kind of public criticism,if you will,of the two proposals by Peat Marwick said, "Okay, if there is some suspicion that Mr. Shaheen is not getting a fair shake with his proposal even though Peat Marwick looked at both and accepted one, the First Arabian Corporation, the Government of Newfoundland would see to it that his proposal, the Avalon Refining proposal, got a fair hearing." So we went ahead then and hired an independent accounting firm, the accounting firm recommended by Mr.

Shaheen, one that he wanted to do an analysis of his proposal to ensure that the decision that had already been made by the receiver was not one which was prejudicial against Mr. Shaheen. And therefore this report is now being tabled today in the House which indicates that Mr. Shaheen.' s proposal, the Avalon Refining proposal is not a feasible proposal confirming the decision made by Peat, Marwick some time ago. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W.

ROWE: So what the Premier is saying, Sir, is that no report exists, there happens to be no report which exists which draws the same conclusion with regards to First Arabian Corporation about feasibility as the Thorne Riddell one does. But~the Premier mentioned here today a half a dozen conditions which had to be met and which have not been met to date, after months and months and months. Nnw my question for the Premier is this, if it transpires that these conditions cannot be met over the reasonable future, I believe the deadline was June 15th. MR. NEARY: 30th. HR. W.

ROWE: June 30th., given by the han. the Pr~~ier, if it appears that these conditions cannot be Z1.'i0

April 10, 1979 Tape No. 847 NM - 4 MR. W. ROWE: met and therefore the First Arabian Corporation proposal has to be deemed to be non-feasible too - PREMIER PECKFORD: Right. MR. W. ROWE: - then has he closed the door to furthe~ negotiations with the Shaheen group? PREMIER PECKFORD: Under those circumstances no, Mr. Speaker. We have closed negotiations with the Shaheen group until we have had the opportunity now to do a full analysis of the First Arabian Corporation's proposal - MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: that? What? - to check out the whole thing. What kind of double talk is 21'11.

April 10,1979 Tape No. 848 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the details that are there before us and after,if that proposal is turned down in time by the First Arabian Corporation and some other person then has a proposal to put on the table for the reactivation of the Come By Chance refinery,of course we would look at it,but only after we have had an opportunity now to take a full look at the First Arabian proposal. MR.NEARY: You are digging a hole for yourself boy. PREMIER PECKFORD: You vould knov all about that. MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) Han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I realize that supplementaries cannot have a

preamble attached but I just want to understand what the Premier is trying to tell the bon. House. It is very confusing. What he is saying is that they are now about to launch into an investigation, an enquiry as to the proposal of First Arabian Corporation and see whether it is feasible or not. Having tabled a report - there being no report in the government's hands concerning the First Arabian Corporation, there being no report they are now about to launch into an investigation.

They have tabled a report which, rightly or wrongly­ I am no expert in this field- rightly or vrongly characterizes the Shaheen report as non-feasible and perhaps destroys any creditability that he may have with regard to the Come By Chance refinery, in a very irresponsible fashion does that, now admits that they are nowhere near satisfied with the First Arabian Corporation,and tells us if it is not feasible by June 30th then they could possibly go back to the Shaheen proposal. P~~IER PECKFORD: No, a new proposal.

Any new proposal f-rom anybody else. !'R.W.ROWE: Well then will the Premier please answer my question~ Has he now closed, hns his administration of the government now closed all doors to Shaheen with regard to the Come By Chance refinery? Is that the decision which has been taken because apparently no other decision has been taken? 21.'{2

April 10,1979 Tape No. 848 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the Leader of the Opposition is trying. I do not know if he cannot hear properly or not. MR.W.ROWE: Please answer the question. That is all. PREMIER PECKFORD: As you asked it? MR.II. ROWE: Shaheen proposal? PREMIER PECKFORD: Rave you closed the doors to the Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the bon. gentleman, we have now closed the door on the proposal that has been presented by Avalon Refining, completely and - let the bon.

Leader of the Opposition be clear now, when he talks about by publishing this report we are now effectively questioning or throwing suspicion upon the credit worthiness of Mr. Shaheen or so on, let there be no mistake, Mr. Speaker: Mr. Shaheen wanted this chartered accounting company and agreed to have this report made public. We are not doing something here, Mr. Speaker,without the consent of the Shaheen group. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear~ hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: So we are not conniving to try to bring some ill repute, if you will, or some lack of credit worthiness upon the Avalon Refining Company or Mr.

Shaheen or anybody else. All I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that there were two proposals. SOME HON.M~~ERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: May I finish the answer? MR. SIMMONS: You can try. PREMIER PECKFORD: There were two proposals presented to the receiver,Peat Harwick. Peat Harwick decided after the two proposals were presented that one was better than the other and the one that was better than the other was the First Arabian Corporation's, in Peat Marwicks view. We were not satisfied that Mr. Shaheen got a fair deal, so therefore the Government of Newfoundland, to insure that Mr.

Shaheen got a fair deal in that kind of a decision made by Peat Harwick, got another chartered accounting firm, who was okayed by Mr. Shaheen as the 21'(3

April 10,1979 Tape No. 848 AH-3 PREMIER PECKFORD: proper chartered accounting firm, independent, outside of any involvement in Come By Chance,to do an analysis of Mr. Shaheen's proposal to insure that the decision already made by Peat Marwick was a sound, reasonable one. And now, in light of Thorne Riddell's report made public today,it confirms that the Shaheen proposal as presented by Avalon Refining is not a feasible one and therefore allows the government to proceed with the decision made earlier by Peat Harwick to pursue the First Arabian Corporation's proposal. If down the road, Mr.

Speaker, the First Arabian Corporation's proposal is rejected by the Province~ which it could very well be if all the conditions are not met, then we have no proposal on the table. If then,after we reject First Arabian Corporation's proposal,there are other companies who come along with another proposal for the reactivation of the Come By Chance refinery after we reject the First Arabian Corporation,then of course we will look at it because we are eager to get Come By Chance ~efinery reactivated. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.W.ROWE: Now whether Mr.

Shaheen or his group consented to the disclosure of the Thorne Riddell Report, have you seen it or have they seen it before it was disclosed publicly? PR~IER PECKFORD: ! do not know if they saw it or not. They agreed in writing to its disclosure anyway, ! mean, that is academic. MR.W.ROIIE: That is so totally irrelevant~ Well it is important, Mr. Speaker, because,to be brutally frank,the Shaheen group~and who the personalities may be involved and so on and so forth are of no consequence Z1'i4

April 10, 1979, Tape 849, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.RDWE: of no consequence or consideration of mine, I am merely concerned, as are my colleagues - PREMIER PECKFDRD: Just ask the question now, as I answered it. MR. W.N.RDWE: We are interested in trying to reactivate the Come by Chance refinery. Now what,I am wondering,is in the best interest of this Province? What possible purpose was sarved as a government, supposedly acting responsibly, in closing the door to a group who may have been able to improve their proposal as time went on? I do not know.

Closing the door to a group who made a proposal, publishing a document which might destroy the creditibility or credit worthiness of a group who may be able to improve a proposal, what public service has the government done, especially if First Arabian Corporation decides it cannot go ahead, or the conditions cannot be met? Then we are left with nobody in the field, Mr. Speaker, the government having effectively destroyed, perhaps, one of the proposals. What public service was done? Why did they table it at this point in time? MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): Order, please!

The hon. gentleman was, in fact, I believe, asking a question. My ruling was going to be to pose the question. MR. W.N.ROWE: I was bringing it to a head, Mr. Speaker. My question is, Sir, what was the point in doing it? And what happens with regard to the Shaheen group if the First Arabian Corporation proposal should founder, for whatever reason? Will the Premier then at that point agree to negotiate further with the Shaheen group? Or is this a decision which is 21'75

2176 April 10, 1979, Tape 849, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: made in respect of the company with regard to all future proposals from that group? There is some spite and malice here. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the public service that was done was to ensure that every single person in Newfoundland and Labrador would become aware that there was no single determination on behalf of government to see that Mr. Shaheen did not get a fair deal; that we wanted to ensure, the government 1 that Mr. Shaheen got a fair hearing; that his past performance would have no reflection on his present performance, number one. Number two, let me suggest to the han. the Leader of the Opposition in his

preamble to his question where he indicated that, you know, a proposal can always change and therefore you should not shut the door; if,when the han. the Leader of the Opposition reads the report he_will look on one of the pages in the report and it says this: - the Thorne Riddell report, I am referring to - "We went back to Mr.

Shaheen to ensure that we had all the evidence and all the information and to ask was there anything additional that could be put on the table at this time before we made our final conclusions, or made our final analysis to ensure that the whole area was covered, that the whole thing was covered so that this was the proposal on which a dec is ion had to be made '1 that it was not amended right up near the end, only a couple of weeks ago." Now, Hr.

Speaker, we cannot as a government continue to deal with a proposal that changes from day to day by a telex here o.r a telex there which vaguely indicates some other condition which might be attached to it.

2177 April 10, 1979, Tape 849, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Government cannot operate that way, business cannot operate that way. Decisions have to be made in the long term in the best interest of the Province and that is what we are trying to do here today by disclosing these reports and indicating by experts, agreed to by all, what a proposal means, whether it is a good proposal or a bad proposal. So now, we have two proposals on the table. One has been proven by experts to be non-feasible, the other proposal is to be pursued to see whether it has a chance to fly.

That is the present position of it so that we can move. And perhaps if the First Arabian Corporation proposal does pan out, then we have a deal and we have the reactivation of the Come by Chance refinery. That is the position. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer) : A supplementary. The hen. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on the same subject. It is interesting the Premier does not believe in telexes. Perhaps that explains why he is not answering the phone calls either from his predecessor down South. PREMIER PECKFORD: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. In asking a question or a supplementary question, a question along the same line which had to do with the announcement that I made earlier on the Come by Chance refinery, the han. the

2178 April 10, 1979, Tape 849, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir rises in his place and makes comments about phone calls from down South which I do not think has any relevancy to the whole question of the statement on the Come by Chance oil refinery and therefore I think he is out of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I quite agree. It has no relevancy at all and I apologize to the Chair and realize that truth and relevance are not necessarily the same thing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER(Ottenheimerl: Order, please~ I have called to the attention of hon. members before that Beauchesne states quite clearly that supplementary questions should not be prefaced by

preambles 22~.:2

2179 April 10, 1979 Tape 850 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a supplementary on the same point, I am referring to page 3 of the Premier's statement on the Come By Chance issue, and at the bottom of that page he has begun to list a numter of conditions, and one of them, number two, reads 11 That the Province has been advised that a chartered bank after seeing preliminary financial projections is seriously interested in providing financing. 11 Mr.

Speaker. as a supplementary to the Premier, I wonder would the Premier indicate whether this condition -r was going to say 'implies~ but then his answer may well be we can imply what we want, but I am asking him if it is possible that the government has not assured itself on this point already? Is that what we are being told here in condition number two? Or is there any particular reason why the condition is there? Does the government have some suspicions about the company's ability to raise the necessary financing? Is there some reason why this particular condition is placed there? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, only that we have ensure of course as a government and involved in this operation that, you know, finances are in place so that the whole thing is financeable and to know the source of the financing. No particular priority to that condition anyroore than the rest, only that we have to ensure of course it i5 one of the conditions that the financing is in place, in the same ways that we will want to ensure that the crude supply is in place as best reasonably can be established, that the markets are in place as best reasonably can be established.

So it has no more meaning in that context than the other factors I just mentioned. MR. SI~1MONS: A further supplementary.

2180 April 10, 1979 Tape 850 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A final supplementary, the han. member for Burgee-Bay d•Espoir, and then the han. member for Bellevue. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the answer I got would imply that the government has no particular concern about this issue anymore than it has the concern about crude supply and so on. And I want to raise a supplementary in another fashion to make sure we understand what the Premier is saying.

My information,and-we went through some length to have The First Arabian people checked out, and I say some considerable length, experienced some considerable difficulty in the financial investment community trying to find information, indeed the answer even after you had given the fellow due notice and he would come back to you with a tentative reply was that he was having some difficulty finding anything about them, and the one bit of information that surfaced on this subject was the questionable nature of their financing.

And I ask the Premier now if again, if he wi11 confirm, if there is any particular reason why a big issue is apparently being made of this particular point? Does the Premier have any reason to believe that this firm will have some difficulty putting together the necessary financing package? Or is it as he said first, this is just one of the routine items he wanted to have covered in his statement? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr.

Speaker, you know, the han. member 1 s information or the information gathered by members opposite I am not privy to, so that therefore I cannot make any conclusions or draw any deductions from information that I do not have at my disposal that the han. member might have. If he does have information which he thinks might be germane to the whole issue, I would ask him to pass it along to me because it might be information that we would like to have. The fact, the condition that is in the statement is one like the rest, crude supply, markets, finance ability, the source of financing and so on.

There is no particular reason at all. I do not have anything in the back of my mind or have been told anything 2~4

2181 April 10, 1979 Tape 850 PK - 3 Premier Peckford: which would suggest that they were going to have difficulty raising the funds. None whatsoever about the course, it must be a factor that we must cover in any deal that we make or support. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): I think I indicated that I recognize the han. member for Bellevue for a supplementary next. MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, an the Ministerial Statement that the Premier gave earlier this afternoon, on Page 3, on the top of Page 3 it says, urn the interest of ensuring that the refinery is brought back on stream as quickly as possible" ,which we all agree with, everyone in this Province, 11 the Province takes the position that it will not entertain a new propos a 1. u So the Pro vi nee has refused, turned down the present proposal. And then it says, 11 The Province takes the position that it will not entertain a new proposal from Mr. Shaheen until the FAC proposal, the First Arabian Corporation 22fi5

2182 April 10, 1979 Tape 851 SD - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: proposal,has been given a fair hearing. On page six, the bottom of the page, it says: "The government supports FAC's request for an extension of the deadline for signing of the contract of sal~ up to June 30th." Now, this is the second deadline that First Arabian has asked for. They were suvposed to have it done on the 15th of February and then they asked that it be extended to the 15th of April,which is a week from now,and now they are asking that it be extended to June 30th, another extension.

So let me ask the Premier this question: What does the Province or the Premier mean by 11 we will act entertain a new proposal from Mr. Shaheen until FAC has been given a fair hearing 11 ? -How many mare extensions will this Province allow the First Arabian and what is meant by a fair hearing? If, for example, on the 28th of June, First Arabian comes out and say,"We want another three month or two month or half year extension.'-' you know, how long can this go on? Meanwhile the door ' is shut on Mr. Shaheen's old proposal and any possibility of a new one. SONE HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, that is a judgement call that the government must make at an appropriate period in time. Obviously, I do not titink the hen. gentleman understands that we are going to try to expedite this matter as quickly as possible and hopefully we can expedite it by the deadline now of June 30th. I for one do not want to see it go beyond that date. If there might be some unusual reason for it to go beyond it, you know, then therefore I would not close the door to even a further extension. MR. S. NEARY: First Arabian is running the government and not the hon. ~entlemAn. HR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please!

Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I would not rule out another extension, Mr. Speaker. but,you know,we are intent to try to get full understanding on the First Arabian proposal so that we can either say yes it goes and we fully support it and we will support 22UG

2183 April lO, l979 Tape 851 SD- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the signing of the sale,or otherwise we Qo not~by the 30th of June. I think that is a realistic expectation that we have now as a government in light of all the informacion that we have at our disposal.

I could not obviously rule it out, There might be some totally unusual condition which might be totally justified.at that time~extending it another five days or two days or seven days or whatever, in order to expedite things, I think the bon. member understands that here we have a proposal that has in it some elements of success, I mean, that is the way I read the situation. We have two proposals one of which has been proven to be non-feasible, the other one of which seems to have elements that can make the whole thing succeed. We want to push that now.

You cannot deal vith both of them at the same time so you have to eliminate the one that has been proven to be non-feasible, go with the other one for a couple of months, see if it will be feasible then at that point in time eliminate that one or approve it and then accept new proposals all over again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) Bellevue. HR. W. CALLAN; Oh, oh! Final supplementary 1 hon. member for Mr. Speaker, final supplementary. Let me ask the Premier this question and perhaps the Premier will say it is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W. CALLAN: PREMIER PECKFORD: friend quite I will. MR. W.

CALLAN~ Oh, oh! I will vait until I get the Premier's attention. Yes , 1£ the han. member will keep his Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier this question •.

It may be construed as being hypothetical,but let me ask. it this way, The Pl:emier obviously as everybody knows around this Province has been saying a lot and practically every day talking about the refinery in the last several weeks, three or four weeks and so on• Let me ask the Premier, let us assume that this government did not like First Arabian's proposal either. did not like either one of them, could not accept either one of them; the Premier has said, I believe, that 22!17

2184 April 10, 1979 Tape 851 RT-J MR. W. CALLAN: ve would be back to the table again waiting for new proposals. Is that how it is, or not? Is it not a fact, for example, that the British who have a couple of hundred million in this deal compared to approximately forty million by this Province, which is about twice the value of a Federal wharf, you know~that the Federal Government has into it, and with the Supreme Court and FIRA and so on, the Province here is just one step of five or six decision-making processes, is it not a fact that the British could go ahead? Well, what would the Premier do if the British decided, 11 We.ll, we cannot wait around for

2185 April 10, 1979 Tape 852. EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: this Province make a decision. We want that refinery open. We own the major portion of it, we have the biggest mortgage on it and so on,1' and if the federal government were anxious to get it open is it necessary that we have to go back to the bargaining table or could not the British force the government to do something? MR.S. NEARY: The Premier is being told what to do by Peat Harwick. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The han. the Premier. PREHIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, I do not know what would happen in that kind of a situation.

I do not perceive it as ever happening, but in the unlikely event that everybody else agreed but us, you know, we would have to just re-examine our position as a government. I mean, if, as the han. member says, the federal government wants to see it open under a given proposal, ECGD is on side with that same proposal and everybody else is except the Government of Newfoundland, I guess we would have to debate that here in this Legislature what would be the next step for government to take. That is how I see that.

It is highly hypothetical and unlikely, but in that unlikely event where everybody else was on side with the proposal except the Government of Newfoundland, I guess we would have to debate it here in the House as to how we wanted to see the future of Come By Chance. open up the whole issue. r think it would SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: the last supplementary. time permitting. Port au Port. :iR. HODDER: Premier. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I have indicated that would be Hon. members may come back to it, The han. the member for Mr. 'Speaker, a question for the 22U9

2186 April 10, 1979 Tape 852 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: I understand that the Newfoundland Teachers• Association made a proposal to the Premier that the teacher layoffs in given areas, for instance, in the Bay St. George area where you would have some thirteen teachers from the R.C.

Board and twenty teachers from the Integrated Board being laid off, I think there was a proposal that the average - I think the provincial average is 2 per cent of declining enrollment each year and they were asking the government if they would consider laying off teachers at 2 per cent a year in some of those areas where there are a lot of teachers being lost. And I ask this question as a long- winded one because I had three and I do not know if I have time to get them all out. And has the Premier taken into consideration that in Bay St.

George, Yhile there has been a drastic decline in enrollment Yhich caused teacher layoffs, that this thing will probably reverse at the end of the Summer when the influx of people come in because of the Abitibi-Price start up? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland Teachers' Association has given government and the Minister of Education a proposal which I saw a couple of days ago. I thought it was a confidential proposal and I am somewhat surprised that the han. member knows the contents of it~ but be that as it may, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hickman) is now studying it and examining it, and we hope to have a statement on it before or on Friday. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. !1R. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for LaPoile.

2187 April 10, 1171 Tape 852 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the bon. the Premier, Sir. Today the latest Statistics Canada statistics on unemployment in Newfoundland which show that Newfoundland, Sir, is a disaster area, were disclosed. There is a crisis situation, an emergency in the Province. Thirty-nine thousand Newfoundlanders are unemployed, looking far jobs. What plans does the Premier have to deal with this situation? Can we expect any proposals to be brought before this House in the next few days to deal with record unemployment in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.

Ottenheimer) The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we are monitoring that situation very carefully. We recognize the high level of unemployment in the Province and we are,in the budgetary process, looking at various means and ways to create employment. And along those lines, we hope that through certain pre-tender calls which would be subject to budgetary provisions, we can get an early start on a lot of Capital Works in the Province this year to help alleviate the unemployment situation. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: SOME ION. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Orders of the Day.

Oh, oh! The bon. gentleman had risen for an additional question and I was pointing out that the time had expired. MR. S. NEARY: By leave, he can continue, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. It is usually not the Chair's intention to cut off an answer once it has started and I thought the han. gentleman had finished. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. Number two, Hr. Speaker, there are other areas of employment generation that we are looking at and, of course, will be announced in due course. 2211

2188 April 10, 1979 Tape 852 EC - 4 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 1. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Consumer Affairs And Environment Act (1973), 11 carried. (Bill No.5). On motion, Bill Uo, 5 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion 2. Motion, the han. the Minister of Lands and Forests to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Crown Landa Act-, n carried. (Bill No. 28), On motion, Bill No. 28 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Order 9. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order 9. Adjourned debate on Bill No. 13. 2212

2189 April 10, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (OTTENHEIMER) : MR. R. SIMMONS: Tape No. 853 GH-1 Han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, this Bill No. 13, 11

An Act To Amend The Crown Guarantee And Loan Act", is a good example of what this government is best at. It is not the only example. We saw another example this afternoon on the Premier's statement concerning Come by Chance. The Come by Chance example and the bill are too excellent examples of this government's ability at confused thinking. Now, Mr. Speaker, I understand I have about five minutes or so remaining and I shall get quickly to the point. Just by way of example, Mr.

Speaker, the statement from the Premier today,at the top of page three of that statement concerning the Corne by Chance subject, I read, "In the interests of ensuring that the refinery is brought back on stream as quickly as possible, the Province takes the position that it will not entertain a new proposal from Mr. Shaheen until the F.A.C. proposal has been given a fair hearing." Mr.

Speaker, by way of example I recall the late Judge Jimmy Higgins,and one of his favourite stories was that a magistrate many years ago told him that he had no difficulty deciding the merits of any particular court case or deciding who the guilty was, no difficulty at all. The magistrate who told the late Jimmy Higgins this story said, "You know, Mr. Higgins, it is very simple. I just decide which side of the case I am going to hear and then I make up my mind." And that is what the government has done in this particular case, Mr. Speaker. They have decided which side of the case they are going to hear.

The story goes on,according to the late Jimmy Higgins, "t'lhy do you not hear both sides of the story?" And the magistrate replied, "That would only confuse me. That would only confuse me." That, Hr. Speaker, sums up 2213

2190 .~pril 10, 1979 Tape No. 853 GH-2 MR. SIMMONS: the problem of this particular government. They will be confused if they heard all the facts. can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, an investment, an asset sitting in our Province worth those millions of dollars out at Come by Chance with its potential for gearing up the economy of that area of the Province, with its potential for job creation, and then to have a government admit that they are afraid to hear all the facts? nno not confuse me with too many options 11 , they say. It is incredible!

I read it and I re-read it and I thought when the Premier read it himself he had misread so I took the statement and quickly checked it, but it is there word for word. And they say, "In the interests of ensuring that the refinery is brought back •.• do you know what we are going to do? We are not going to confuse ourselves with too much information. We are going to be like the magistrate. We will hear one side of the case only." That is the kind of confused thinking, Mr.

Speaker, that has this Province in trouble under this administration•s leadership and that is the kind of confused thinking that is in this bill here, that somehow they can grab a bit of power, somehow they can centralize her a little better. Well, I have news for that crowd, Mr. Speaker, that han. crowd. The public is watching them just a little closer now. The public is watching them just a little closer.

The Premier can try all he wants to put on the cosmetics of a new image and part of those cosmetics is what I referred to earlier in the House today, get as much distance as he can between himself and his former Premier. I have news for him. He is going to have to live with the former Premier. I realize the present Premier thinks he is an albatross, thinks he is an albatross, but 2214

2191 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 853 GH-3 MR. SIMMONS: like the original story about the albatross this one is not going away very quickly. And while the cosmetics of a new image are trying to be projected, the reality is the same only more daring, only more brazen, to centralize in the hands of a very few the essential financial decisions of this Province. It is wrong, Mr. Speaker. This bill is wrong. Not only does it have a lot of confused thinking, a lot of kindergarten approaches to politics which we will expect a lot more of, Mr. Speaker.

Do not forget that in this House we once had three great debaters on the government side and we used to have to distinguish them. We had Mr. Barry, the former Minister of Energy. We used to call him - but first of all we had his predecessor, Mr. Crosbie, the Minister of Energy. We used to call him the 'highschool debater•- the 'university debater', I remember, and then we called Mr. Barry the 'highschool debater', and you all remember what we have called the next Minister of Energy, the now Premier. 2215

2192 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 854 DW - 1 ~fR. SIMMONS: We used to always call him the kindergarten debater and this, Hr. Speaker, is kindergarten garten thinking. This childish is youngsterish! But it is also, Hr. Speaker, worst than that, If it were just lack of knowledge, if it were just ignorance,you could understand it,but it is ~rst than that. It is a deliberate effort,! say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), and he should have no part of it. He is an honourable man as we know.

He should have no part of this effort.! am aware also that he might not have been aware that this was the motive behind the bill,and I am sure he has been told all the right things to say to refute our arguments. But time will tell,I say to him, time will tell if he puts his foot in this oney time will tell how wrong he was if he tries to defend this particular bill, time will surely tell. If he has any doubts about the particular subject, Hr. Speaker, I draw the parallel for him once again with the Come by Chance refinery announcement this afternoon.

Confused, childish, kindergarten thinking 1 the kind we have come to expect from this particular gentleman who is now the Premier! A disgrace! A disgrace that we should have this kind of thing paraded before us under the guise of being intelligent information on the subject. A disgrace! And I refer to the two documents together, Mr. Speaker, the Premier's statement and the bill because it is the product of the same kind of thinking or~to put it more kindly, the product of the same lack of th!nking. Take the hill back, I say to the minister! Here. take it back! Take it back!

Take it back and re-draft it, Re-draft it if it is needed to be re-drafted,or just haul it off the Order Paper and let things stand until you get a better idea. Here, I say to the M1nister of Finance,you have a much, much worst idea! SO~f.E RON. ~ffiERS: Hear, hear! !--'B.. SPEAKER (!m., CROSS): If the han. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The han. Minister of Finance. Z216

2193 Aprll 10, 1979 Tape No. 854 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: I hardly recognize this bill that I introduced - it seems a long time ago. is just a little small thing but somehow or another it seems to have developed into a Throne Speech. PosSibly, Mr. Speaker, I could just mention the points that have been raised in regard to it. Just to point out the difficulties I am in~because I believe there was a little bit of confusion when the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was speaking how much time he had. HR. S. NEARY: No. DR. J. COLLINS: No, I am not saying confused in his thoughes,just how much time he had.

It turned out that he had unlimited time and I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that possibly I should unlimited time to reply to all the points that, were raised. Just to enumerate them, there was a point raised in regard to the loans by lending agencies. MR. S. NEARY: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: (Cross) A point of order has been raised. MR. S. NEARY: ~r.Speaker, the han. gentleman still thinks he is sitting in the Chair. The han. Rentleman just left the House with the impression that somehow or other he has been muzzled, that he ca~not have equal time to what I had when I spoke on this bill.

I want to tell the bon. gentleman that he has 90 minutes, and if the han. gentleman wants to avail of his 90 minutes,please feel free to do so. tVe are not trying to muzzle the bon. gentleman. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Oh~ oh: HP.. SPEA.l\ER: Order~ please: J')R. J. COLLI~S: Hr. Speaker, there is no point of order there. I said that I would need unlimited time. I ;.Jould suggest that I ni:ht need unlimited time to respond to it~Hhich is not available to ~e. :-!R. S. 'iEA:tY: ~r. Speaker, to my point of order, Sir, by leave the han. gentleman can have unlimited time if he wants to answer it.

He will give the hon, gentleman nermission, this side of the House will give the han. gentleman unlimited time now :<.Zi?

2194 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 854 DW- 3 YR. S. NEARY: to answer the questions that we put to him. By leave. MR. SPEAKER (MR. CROSS): there was a point of explanation. DR. J. COLLINS: Order, please! There is no point of order. The bon. ~tinister of Finance. Hr. Speaker, thank you for your ruling which I certainly accept without any hesitation whatever. There was no point of order involved. So getting back to the points that were raised were loans by lending agencies. ~low this amend- ment has nothing whatever to do with loans, this has got to do with guarantees~ it has nothing to do with loans.

Another point that wns raised was in regard to Pelcon, a co~any that did operate in this Province at one time. There was also a point raised in regard to the Canadian Cushion Corporation. Also in regard to the Farm Loan Board, in partiCular to a tractor that had something to do with Bell Island. Another area of discussion in recard to this small bill, Hr. Speaker, were the operations of various corporations, the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation,which incidentally is federal/ provincial, it is not a provincial orRanization solely it is a federal/ provincial organization.

In regard to the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation,which is a provincial Crown corporation and also in regard to Nordco, which 2218

2195 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 855 GH-1 DR. J. COLLINS: is another federal-provincial corporation. Another point that was raised was in regard to traffic courts, the traffic court accounting system. There was also a point raised in regard to auto insurance, particularly in relation to motor registrations. There was also the hardy perennial of the town of Buchans. The town of Buchans is a worthy subject but it was difficult to see how it related to this amendment, but the points in debate were raised in regard to Buchans.

There were points raised in regard to the operation of the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation, particularly in regard to the interception of grants to municipalities, and the han. member who just took his seat then raised a point in regard to Come by Chance. So indeed, there was a large number of subjects raised, Mr. Speaker, that had in my view very little, if anything, to do with this bill, so I think what I should do in the first instance is to place this bill, which is an amendment,in the proper context. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the amendment is to the Crown Guarantee and Loan Act, 1973, and without reading that act in toto, the explanatory note really gives the essence of that act, and that act says, "That where any Minister of the Crown is authorized to guarantee the repayment of any bond or issue or loan or whether any Minister of the Crown is authorized to make a loan or when any Minister of the Crown is authorized to act in any incidental matter in regard to this, that that authority is exercised by the Minister of Finance and even if another Minister is mentioned in a bill giving such authorization, that reference is to be deemed to 2219

2196 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 855 GH-2 DR. J. COLLINS: refer to the Minister of Finance". So in actual fact as it presently stands, the Crown Guarantee and Loan Act, 1973, says that no minister can guarantee repayment, can make a loan or act in any matter incidental without reference to the Minister of Finance, that even though it mentions in

an act under which he is operating that he is the one uho authorizes it, that is to be read as meaning the Minister of Finance. So the departments of government already are under that umbrella and if one refers to the

schedule in that act, Mr. Speaker, it means that the Loan and Guarantee Act of 1957 comes under that umbrella, the LOcal Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, the Senior Citizens' Housing Act, the ~ewfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation Act, the Melville Pulp and Paper Limited Authorization Agreement Act, 1966-67, the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation Act, the Stephenville Linerboard Agreeernent Act, 1972.

So all these departments and all departments acting under the authority of these acts are already under that umbrella of having to have the authorization of the Hinister of Finance to guarantee repayment, to make loans or to act in matters incidental to. Now this particular amendment, ~4r. Speaker, in essence does this. Where agencies, that is, where boards, commissions or other bodies are authorized to guarantee repayments of loans or bonds, not make loans but guarantee repayment, such authorization is to be exercised by the Minister of Finance.

In other words, what the ministers of the Crown operating under acts so authorizing them have to do now, that is, they have to in actual fact operate in the name only of the Minister of Finance. We 2220

2197 April 10, 1979 Tape No. ass GH-3 DR. J. COLLINS: are now asking that agencies, not departments of government, they are already covered, we are now asking that merely agencies operate in the same way. In actual fact - MR. HICKMAN: minutes to five. DR. J. COLLINS: You have to finish by five what this ZZ2:1.

2198 April 10, 1979 Tape 856 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: means is that the Department of Finance have to be informed, the Minister of Finance has to be informed about the guarantees and only guarantees, not loans but guarantees of repayment of loans. The Minister of Finance has to be informed of these which all departments of government are presently doing. Now, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that that puts this in the proper perspective. Now, Mr. Speaker, could go on at some length to answer some of the points that have been raised but, Mr.

Speaker, I think that at this point in time I will merely reiterate that there is no question of this amendment avercentralizing government, there is no question of this amendment giving undue power to the Minister of Finance,and there is no question that this amendment diminishes in any way the authority presently exercised by other ministers of the Crown. This is merely bringing into operation something that already applies to the departments of government, bringing that into operation for the agencies, in other words, lesser bodies of government. Mr. Speaker, L ""therefore move second reading.

On motion, a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Crown Guarantee And Loan Act, 1973, n read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 13) On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 13, Mr. Soeaker left the Chair. COI1MITIEE OF THE t;HOLE: MR. NEARY: Is this proper, Mr. Chairman? This is the first time I have seen this happen and I do not want to question Your Honour but where the Speaker leaves the Chair and comes down and sits at the Table? I will have to check that one out with my constitutional experts. A bi 11, 11

An Act To Amend The Crown Guarantee And Loan Act, 1973." (Bill No. 13) On motion Clause (1) carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. t~R. NEARY: Just as a matter of procedure, how is Your Honour now going to report the bill? Does he go over there to his seat and 2222

2199 April 10, 1979 Tape 856 18-2 MR. NEARY: say," Mr. Speaker, I wish to report the bi 11 n 7 You have to have the Speaker in the Chair, do you not? AN HON. MEMBER: Not necessarily. MR. NEARY: Okay. You are talking to an empty Chair if you do that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! On motion, that the Committee rise and report proQress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The han. Chairman of Committees. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the 14hole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Sill No. 13 without amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. Motion, that Bill No. 13 be read a third time now, by leave, carried. 2223

2200 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 857 GH-1 MR. SPEAKER: On motion "An Act To Amend The Crown Guarantee And Loan Act, 1973" (Bill No. 13} read a third time, ordered passed and its title shall be as on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of information, Sir, a Point of Order I guess is about the only way I can put it. Your Honour, when Your Honour was out in his office doing research we went into committee of the Whole and the Speaker at the time, the Deputy Speaker, left the Chair, came down and became Chairman of Committees,which I thought was most irregular, Sir.

I am not complaining about it but I think there was probably a solution to the problem; at least I think we should have followed the precedents and the tradition of this House since I have been here anyway. When the Speaker is in his office and the Deputy Speaker is sitting in the Chair, we go into Committee of the Whole and the Assistant Deputy Speaker or Chairman of Committees is not available, then some backbencher is asked to sit in the Chair on Committee of the Whole.

I do not know if Your Honour advised the Deputy Speaker, you know, of what procedure we have been using but I just raise it, Sir, as a matter of record. I think, you know, we should raise these matters when they crop up. And then Your Honour was dragged in out of his office, rushed in and then had to bark at the people at the table which probably was a little bit embarrassing. I heard what Your Honour said, but I believe Your Honour would be well advised to straighten out the Deputy Speaker, you know, on just how to handle these matters when they arise. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Ottenheimer): Well actually, as han. members are aware, there is no Deputy Chairman of Committees. But the procedure as stated by the han. gentleman to my right has been the regular one and that is if the Deputy Chairman leaves the Table to come to the Chair the report is read to him by 2224

2201 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 857 GH-2 MR. SPEAKER (OTTENHEIMER): a backbencher 1 by any backbencher. Hon4 minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move that this House do adjourn until Monday, April 30th, 1979, at three of the clock and further

be it resolved that when this House adjourns - provided always, rather, that if it appears to the satisfaction of ~tr. Speaker or in the case of his absence from the Province, the Chairman of Committees, after consultation with Her Majesty's government that the House should meet at an earlier time than the adjournment, the Speake~ or in his absence the Chairman of Committees may give notice that he is so satisfied and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated by such notice and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time. MR. NEARY: Scandalous, scandalous! MR.

SPEAKER: It is moved then that this House adjourn until Monday, April 30th, at 3:00p.m., provided always that if it appears to the satisfaction of Mr. Speaker or in the case of his absence from the Province, the Chairman of Committees, after consultation with Her Majesty's government that the House should meet at an earlier time than the adjournment, the Speaker,or in his absence the Chairman of Committees,may give notice that he is so satisfied and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated by such notice and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time. MR. SPEAKER: Han.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: It is a bad example. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would have expected the han. Acting House Leader to have given at least a word of explanation for this startling development. we have a new 2225

2202 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 857 GH-3 MR. vi. ROWE: Premier come into the House,full of vim and vigour or so he tries to project himself. We are in here for a half a dozen days and the House is now adjourning for twenty days - three weeks! All through the last number of weeks when the leadership convention for the other side was going on, all we heard was the great legislative program we were going to have. We are going to have this; we are going to have 222G

2203 April 10, 1979 Tape 858 RT-1 MR. W. ROWE: that,we were going to have measures to cope with unemployment, we were going to have measures to deal with the high cost of electricity, the Lower Churchill development was going to be taken care of, the come by Chance refinery was going to be dealt with in man-fashion, a forthright man-fashion, and now we have the new Premier,who is not even in his seat put the acting House Leader up to move the adjournment of the House for three weeks. When did we get here? When did we come back to the House? MR. S. NEARY: The 27th. MR. W. ROWE: The 27th.

So we have been here for two weeks. We had the House adjourned for a month or more, six weeks, while another political process was going on that is no concern of this bon. House, Hr. Speaker. The House adjourned; the people's business came to a dead standstill; unemployment figures, and they are only figures, at 18 or 20 per cent MR. s. NEARY: 39,000 as of today. MR. W. ROWE: -with 39,000 or 40,000 people unemployed in this Province, and they adjourned the House to allow a convention to go ahead.

And now, with Easter coming up and a few people wanting to go down South to their condominiums and on their various holidays, the House is adjourning for three weeks.

With delegations coming in from all corners of the Province, delegations from everywhere in the Province, Westport yesterday, and other parts of the Province looking for answers to their questions, questions which if not a matter of life and death are the next thing to it, hazardous road conditions, bad road conditions, no water and sewer, the newly appointed Premier flicks them to one side with a vague answer like, 110h,five or six weeks we will bring the Budget down." And now we have the House of Assembly adjourning, Hr.

Speaker, for anotuer three weeks and every Cabinet minister here - aome of them are already gone I would suspect - i-!R. S. NL\RY: The House Leader. MR. w. ROWE: Every Cabinet minister here with very few exceptions~ those who are just getting their feet wet,maybe, will be :G227

2204 April 10, 1979 Tape 859 EC - 1 MR. II. N. ROWE: of legislation presented to the House, nothing, Mr. Speaker• housekeeping legislation which could be attended to by the Clerk of the Council downstairs on the 8th Floor. That is what is brought before us, nothing of a substantial nature whatsoever, no Budget brought before this House. The fourth seat for Labrador was a matter which had the unanimous consent of this han. House, and as far as consent was concerned it could have been passed in one minute we have been so eager over here to have it passed years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: 1974, 1975. MR.

W. tL ROWE: It should have been passed years ago. And now we have a government which we on this side had taken a decision to allow to try to cope with the problems of this Province, give them elbow room - a new Premier - give him some elbow room, let him not be concerned with the political day­ to-day problems in the House of Assembly, or in the country for that matter, let him come to grips with the problems facing this Province. We would lay off him, we would not bother him. I do not think there has been a word of criticism uttered against the bon. the Premier. HR. NEARY: This is the first day - today. HR. W.

N. ROWE: 'Give him a chance,' we all said and we all decided. 'Give him a chance to do what he can do.' MR. NEARY: That is right. ~R, W. N. ROWE: Because we are all politicians, Mr. Speaker, but we are all ~ewfoundlanders first and we want to see action taken on behalf of Newfoundland and Labrador. So give him a chance. If he can come up with a programme that is in the best interests of this Province

2205 April 10, 1979 Tape 859 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: in a reasonable period of time and that leads to our defeat as a party because he has come to grips with the problems, t am prepared to live with that as are my colleagues. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. W. N. ROWE: Because we may be politicians and party politicians, but if there is anybody who can come up with answers to the problems and grapple with the problems, then he deserves to form a government in this Province as far as t am concerned. MR. NEARY: Newfoundland first. MR. W. N.

ROWE: And what do we see? -Yes, put your Province first, your party second and yourself last. That is the advice and the injunction issued by a man who charitably did not follow his own advice, to say the least, but we will not get into that; he is no longer on the public scene. But that was the postulate, that was the guiding principle for this government as laid down from on high by the disappearing Premier, the former Premier, and we were willing to live with that kind of an edict. That is the way you should act - your Province first, your party second and yourself third. And what we are seeing here, Mr.

Speaker, is nothing less than a complete reversal of that piece of advice. We have a government consisting of individuals led by an individual who are not prepared to put their Province first. I do not know what they are putting first, maybe themselves or their party, I do not know­ it is irrelevant to me, immaterial- but we know the Province's interest is not being put first. We see them all now skedaddle out of this House - MR. HICKMAN: I hope you are right. 21.'77

2206 AprillO, l979 Tape 859 EC - 3 MR. W. N. ROWE : - many of them leaving the Province altogether, many of them going off to rusticate in the Province for two or three weeks. Some of them, the junior ministers, the new ministers, will undoubtedly be at their desks trying to find out what they are supposed to be responsible for. MR. NEARY: XR. W. N. ROWE : The novelty has not worn off yet. That is right, and their seats are scarcely warm in any event, trying to get the grooves worn properly in the seat over the next number of weeks. So I can understand that the novelty has not worn off.

But for the other ministers, the ones, Mr. Speaker, to be blunt about it, the ones in whose hands the destiny of this Province is, these ministers, Sir, will not be around their desks for the next three weeks, they will be gone. Nobody begrudges anybody a little break, but let us take our breaks, Mr. Speaker, when it is most convenient for the people of the Province, not when it is vitally necessary that we all be here present, standing up, arguing the issues, talking the issues, proposing solutions, uncovering misadministration and incompetence and abuses of justice in this Province - HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! HR.

W. N. ROWE : - to cite one or two minor examples. HR. HARY: We would be here for the rest of our lives if we got into that one. MR, \.1. N. ROWE: Let us get the Minister of Justice thinking about some important considerations. It is well known, Nr. Speaker, that a government's first duty beyond everything else is to provide security and justice for its people, MR. ~lEARY: ?lR. W. U. ROWE: Or the appearance of it. And the appearance of it! 2i'i'B

2207 April 10, 1979 Tape 859 EC - 4 MR. W. N. ROWE: !:ot"or;· and the appearance of it, P~ovide security and justice for its people. That is the first duty of a government, and everything else is secondary to that -it has to be. Not that they are not important~ because vithout security and vith a breakdown in the justice system, everything else goes by the board. Let us get the Minister of Justice, if he has any courage in this matter, let us set up a Royal Commission of Inquiry, a proper one, into the breakdown of justice in this Province, the misadministration of justice in this Province.

This proceeding which we have often talked about in this House before, this proceeding under the Public

2208 April 10, 1979 Tape No. 860 GH-1 MR. W. ROWE: Inquiry Act known as a Royal Commission of Inquiry or public inquiry, let us have some thought by Royal Commission into the procedures used there. My han. friend, the member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) had the agonizing experience, I well remember, and I hope he does not mind my referring to it - MR. NEARY: I certainly do not - MR. w. ROWE: - the agonizing experience - MR. NEARY: - of the kangaroo court, the Star Chamber. MR. w.

ROWE: - of sitting down there in a kangaroo court - no reflection on the commissioner involved because it was not in his hands;- the Public Inquiry Act procedure 1 that is laid down here- sitting down there with witnesses pulled in, asked questions by a counsel for the R