December 12, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 31

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings the Chair would like to welcome to the House of Assembly today, in the

gallery, twenty students from the Canadian Issue Class from the Mount Pearl Senior High School representing the

Districts of Mount Pearl and Waterford Valley. These students are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Darryl Penney.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bellevue.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I rise today with great pride to talk about an event that happened in my district last

night, in the community of Arnold's Cove. We had a great number of people who turned out for a church service and

carol sing. Five denominations were involved and all the organizations in the communities of Arnold's Cove, Sunnyside,

Come By Chance, Little Harbour. The collection last night from that church service totaled $20,000 which was a

fantastic amount and shows the generosity of the people involved in the area. It was just fantastic to hear and

see the people working together for such a great cause. I sat there last night and was very proud to be the member

for that area and show you that the people were so generous in contributing to this worthwhile cause.

I wish to inform the Members of the House of Assembly that I think we all should be proud of the contributions

that Newfoundlanders make to these charitable organizations. For such a small population this was a fantastic amount

of money, of $20,000.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise today to inform my hon. colleagues of government's continued support towards the efforts of

the Canadian Sealers Association.

I would also like to recognize Ms Tina Fagan, Executive Director of the Canadian Sealers Association, in the gallery

today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Sealers Association was formed in 1982 in response to the negative publicity

against the sealing industry by some animal rights groups. The association represents more than 6,000 sealers and

works with federal and provincial governments to jointly promote the sealing industry.

Over the years, government has provided funding to the organization to assist with various operational costs. Today,

I am pleased to announce that government is continuing funding in the amount of $50,000 to the Canadian Sealers

Association to help with such expenses.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Government supports the important role that the Canadian Sealers Association plays and, for the past

decade or more, government and the sealing industry have focused efforts on the rebuilding of our sealing industry.

Our overall objective is to ensure that the seal resource is fully developed for the benefits of sealers, other

industry workers and communities with a dependence on this important economic activity.

Mr. Speaker, government is obviously concerned about the impact of the growing seal population in the recovery

and sustainability of cod stocks. Earlier this year, Mr. Dhaliwal, federal Fisheries Minister, established an eminent

panel on seal management. The four-member expert panel, to which this government has appointed Mr. David Vardy,

Chair of the Public Utilities Commission, was a recommendation of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans

in 1999 to provide advice on a new long-term strategy for the management of seal populations.

The Province commends the federal government for acknowledging the importance of establishing an independent panel

to address the seal issue. Government will be making an appropriate representation to this panel and will seek

scientific advice to support government's stand on this key issue. In particular, we will seek advice on the effects

of seal/cod predation and the impact it has on cod stocks. We will continue to work with the Department of Fisheries

and Oceans to ensure that an effective management plan is put in place in a timely manner to deal with the growing

seal herd that is negatively impacting the recovery of our ground fishery.

Mr. Speaker, government remains fully committed to the sealing industry in this Province and the role that the

Canadian Sealers Association plays in the industry's survival. The initiative government has taken today is a reflection

of that commitment to ensuring a sustainable sealing industry.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, would like to recognize the excellent work that has been brought forward by the Canadian Sealers Association,

and recognize Ms Tina Fagan as well for the excellent work and guidance that she has brought to this particular

industry. But, I have to say what a change, what a transformation. It was only in the last sitting of the House

of Assembly that the former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture was going to have nothing to do with the Canadian

Sealers Association; cut off all funding. In fact, threaten to have the president of the Sealers Association removed

from her office. What a transformation!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It is true, I say to the member.

It was decided that there would be no more funding put forward to the Canadian Sealers Association. At that time

I said shame, and I repeat that here again today but say that this good news because I think there is still a big

part to play by the Canadian Sealers Association in order to bring this industry to where it should be.

The Canadian Sealers Association has identified some major problems. Down in my district there are in excess of

100 people employed at certain times during the year, taking advantage of this particular industry. There are twenty

or thirty people employed full time with a very viable industry, and it is certainly an excellent source of employment

for an area that has been destitute from the closure of the cod moratorium.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised to hear the member say that this government will be making a presentation

to the eminent panel, the panel of eminent people, because it was only a couple of weeks ago that this panel was

supposed to make a submission and release its report. I am surprise to hear that this government have not already

appeared before that panel and put forward their suggestions and their proposals of how to deal with the explosion

of the harp seal herd off the Northeast Coast of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, support the effort of the Canadian Sealers Association, particularly as it goes to their promotion of

products for the sealing industry, to help develop markets and setting standards for the hunt.

I think it is very important and critical to this Province that the seal hunt continue because of the effect it

has on the rebuilding of our cod industry.

I was out last spring to a funeral in Red Cliff, and following the funeral we had an opportunity to go to a cove

just outside there. That cove was filled with codfish, even to the point where they were almost coming up on the

beach. Right outside the cove there were seals just bobbing up and down in the water. It was quite a sight to see,

and not too many people have had the opportunity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: At that time, I did have a camera with me and I did take some good photos of that and gave them to

the Minister of Fisheries afterwards; so there is no question that the seal hunt in this Province is important

to the Sealers Association, and the rebuilding of the cod stocks as well.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, further to comments by the Premier last week, I have assembled a committee and am announcing

that a comprehensive review of the Province's Freedom of Information Act will commence early in the new year.

Government acknowledges that there have been no major changes to the Act since 1981. While the Act was considered

a pioneering piece of legislation at the time, in the past twenty years there have been major changes in the way

we manage information, and even the creation of new forms of communication such as e-mail and voice mail.

As the hon. Premier stated on December 4, government has no intention of hiding behind legislation. We are committed

to an open, transparent process in the development and implementation of public policy, and we want to ensure our

legislation remains clear and relevant in this new age of information.

We understand that there must be a balance between the public's right to know, and respect for individual privacy.

It is also important to promote full and frank discussions at the executive and ministerial levels, which require

appropriate recognition of the confidentiality of certain deliberations.

A committee of four individuals, each respected in their own fields, will determine the process for carrying out

the review. This process may include such things as holding consultations and receiving written submissions from

stakeholders.

The committee will review and make recommendations on all aspects of the Freedom of Information Act and regulations,

including, but not limited to, recommendations dealing with the following: the need for a new review mechanism

to examine decisions respecting the disclosure of information; the composition and powers of any recommended review

mechanism; the appropriate exemptions from disclosure of the Act; amendments necessary to deal properly with new

forms of information such as e-mail; and appropriate time periods for government departments and agencies to respond

to requests for information.

Mr. Speaker, the members of this newly-formed committee are sitting in the Speaker's gallery today, and I would

like to welcome them to the House:

Ms Joan Dawe, a former Deputy Minister of the Department of Health and Community Services, will chair the committee.

She is currently chairperson of the Board of Directors for Health and Community Services, St. John's Region, and

a member of the Board of Directors for the Newfoundland and Labrador Health Boards Association.

Siobhan Coady is the vice-president of Corporate Communications Limited, a national strategic marketing and communications

company. She is also president of Bonaventure Fisheries, a privately-held fish harvesting company, and a past president

of the St. John's Board of Trade.

Dr. Leonard Williams is a former Deputy Minister of Education who has spent the majority of his adult life as a

school administrator. He is a past president of both the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and the Canadian Teachers'

Federation. Members of this House will no doubt remember Dr. Williams' role as chairman of the 1992 Royal Commission

on Education. Dr. Williams, incidently, will be invested as a member of the Order of Canada early in 2001.

Dennis Browne is a prominent St. John's lawyer who has, on several occasions, been appointed as a consumer advocate

to protect the public interest at hearings before the Public Utilities Board.

I am grateful to each of these individuals for their interest in participating on the review committee. I have

asked them to present their report to government within six months.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is an extremely important issue. I genuinely hope that this is not an attempt by government at either rhetoric

or posturing. It is indeed an important issue. It affects all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

The people of this Province must have confidence in its government. I can say, and only say, that is best shown

and best exemplified when requests are made and information is sought from members opposite and it is given freely,

openly and voluntarily. When that relationship exists, I would suggest and remind members opposite, that confidence

can them be implemented and hopefully, if it is not there, restored.

Mr. Speaker, what I would propose, in addition to the committee of individuals that has been put together by the

minister, is perhaps one of two things: One, that a non-partisan committee, a committee of this Legislature, be

assembled upon completion of the recommendations to review, analyze and assess those recommendations. As indicated,

that could be formed by members of both sides of the Legislature. Secondly, that an invitation be given by this

committee to all members of this House to participate in and to assemble with the committee to make recommendations

of their own and, if nothing else, to bring experiences that we have experienced as a result of simply being Opposition

members and not having received the information that we have requested.

I think if government were to afford the opportunity of those two options: one, to review in a non-partisan way;

and, secondly, to have the ability to participate in the decision making of this committee, then this really and

truly, in its reality and its entirety, can be seen as a non-partisan, open and voluntarily act by this government,

which is being done in good faith.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I welcome the fact that the review of the act will take place. I am concerned that the minister's review, however,

is somewhat narrow in looking at the balance between the public's right to know and the respect for individual

privacy. The problem is not the respect for individual privacy that keeps government from releasing information,

it is their lack of desire to do so because of political reasons.

I would have preferred, Mr. Speaker, a Select Committee of this House to deal with this, although I have no quarrel

with the qualifications of the eminent people who are appointed to this panel. There ought to be more involvement

of people who are a part of this particular process, and the suggestions of my colleague from St. John's East are

certainly to be commended to the minister.

There ought to be more political involvement in this process because it is, essentially, a good process.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: We will see that, Mr. Speaker, when we see the results of this committee.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order (inaudible) the issue that was just brought up by that speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.

PREMIER TULK: I think, once the Minister of Justice has received the report of the committee, then it is going

to be a public report anyway, or I would assume it is. Once that is the case -

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) as it can be.

PREMIER TULK: It will be a public report and obviously open to debate and suggestions from members of this House.

I don't know if that was the intention of the hon. gentleman or not, but certainly we would be pleased to have

a discussion on that. I just want to make a point, that the report will be public once the four people who have

been commissioned to do this bring back a report. It will be public and obviously made available to members to

comment upon.

I don't know whether that satisfies the requirement or not, but if it doesn't we would certainly be open to having

a discussion on it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, this morning government approved the precommitment of approximately $28 million against

Works, Services and Transportation's 2001/02 budget for the early tendering of eight Trans-Labrador Highway projects.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is well known in the construction industry that early tender calls save money. My

department plans to call tenders for these projects early in January, thereby giving contractors more time to prepare

for the work. Contractors will be able to replenish and repair their fleet earlier and not have to incur the overtime

costs associated with a short preparation time.

Knowing well in advance what jobs they will be working on also gives contractors more time and flexibility in mobilizing

equipment to the site, cutting down on transportation costs. Mr. Speaker, when contractors can reduce costs, this

translates into savings for government.

The projects which will go to tender in January include: the construction of the St. Lewis Access Road, approximately

15 kilometers. When these final 15 kilometers are constructed, this road will be completed into St. Lewis. Honourable

members know that when the second phase, the Trans-Labrador Highway was brought in first this road was not included.

There will be over 30 kilometers of road into St. Lewis and this community will now be connected to the main Trans-Labrador

Highway.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Construction of the highway from Port Hope Simpson towards the Charlottetown Access Road, approximately

17.5 kilometers; construction of the highway from the Charlottetown Access Road towards Paradise River, approximately

44 kilometers; construction of approximately 47 kilometers of highway from Cartwright towards Port Hope Simpson;

and the construction of concrete bridges at the following locations on the highway: Mary's Harbour River; Blackwater

Brook in Port Hope Simpson; Dykes River near Cartwright; and Southeast Brook near Paradise River.

Mr. Speaker, added to the $28 million which we will spend on new projects in 2001-2002, we also have $15 million

in carry over projects from last year. This puts last year's Trans-Labrador Highway expenditures, and this year's,

at $43 million.

For people living in southern Labrador, the highway opens up areas previously not accessible by land travel. People

in and outside of Labrador are experiencing new tourism and business opportunities and have another option for

the movement of goods.

Two weeks ago my department opened the first

section of Phase Two of the Trans-Labrador Highway, 78 kilometers

from Red Bay to Lodge Bay, and reaction has been positive. People in the area are very excited about what the highway

will mean to them personally and especially to local businesses. Mr. Speaker, we have also just entered into a

three year contract for summer and winter maintenance for this road. This contract covers Pinware to Port Hope

Simpson, including the branch road to St. Lewis, and is valued at $3 million.

It was only a couple of weeks ago that I went down and travelled halfway into Mary's Harbour from Red Bay, into

where they were putting the last stone on, approximately 44 kilometers of road, and it is an excellent highway.

I met approximately seventeen to twenty vehicles coming up from Mary's Harbour and Lodge Bay at that time, coming

up towards Red Bay.

Mr. Speaker, up to and including money spent on projects this year, government has invested a total of $141 million

on the construction of the Trans-Labrador Highway. We remain committed to ensuring the highway in Labrador is completed.

While it is not in place right now, we continue to lobby the federal government for the funding necessary for Phase

Three of the highway, from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Cartwright. We are confident that this funding will come in

the near future.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Indeed, we are all delighted to see the potential for southern Labrador through this highway. I have travelled

that area of the Province very well, know it very well, and I know the great potential that it has for tourism,

and other resources, I say to the minister. We are also glad for early tendering, that the government can get the

best bang for the buck. In my view, they are going to need to get the best bang for the buck because the savings

needed has to be involved in this entire Province. Although, we look at Labrador as opening up with a new road

system and further growth development of Labrador, it is a positive thing, there is no doubt about it.

Mr. Speaker, we also have to look at the Province as whole. The minister knows full well that when you look at

$12 million to $13 million per year for provincial roads in this Province, some 900 kilometers of road still unpaved,

I just hope that the word he used of confidence, that the federal government will allow the last phase to be completed.

I hope that comes true. He should be sure, not confident that it will be completed.

As we look at the Province as a whole, we have to look at maintenance and further down the road of what we are

going to do to address a problem, a brewing crisis, I have always said, still brewing in this Province. When you

have 900 kilometers of gravel roads still left after fifty years of Confederation, of the greatest country in the

world they say, and we still have hundreds of kilometers of old pavement, from twenty to twenty-five years old,

like on the La Scie highway last year. That is something that has to be addressed because down the road we will

be looking for maintenance for these new highways in Labrador and we have to be able to answer the question: Can

we keep up with the maintenance? When you look at $12 million per year in the last several years, when the minister

gets $300 million in requests, you do not need a lot of mathematics to find out that with $300 million in requests,

and $12 million every year for the last two or three years by this government, it will not address the growing

concern of the problems we have with roads in this Province.

Number one, the concern is that Labrador be completed, and there have been concerns raised about that. I hope that

the minister is very sure that it will be, in fact, completed; but also I hope that the federal and provincial

governments are going to come together in some way to address the real concern that we have for provincial roads

in this Province, which is not being addressed right now.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is good news for Southern Labrador, in our experience in Labrador West. I can understand and relate to how

the people in Southern Labrador feel, the same way we felt a few years ago when we were able, for the first time,

to drive from Labrador West to Quebec and then down through Goose Bay.

The road, there is no question, will bring a lot of economic benefit to that region, and I am sure the people there

appreciate the fact now that they will not be isolated in their community, and that they do have the ability to

get aboard their vehicles and visit family and friends at their convenience, the way that most people in this Province

have been used to doing for a great many years.

I would say, though, that the portion from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Cartwright - I seem to recall the former Premier,

when he made that release, saying that the interest from that money would be used and set aside for work to be

carried out on the

section of road from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Cartwright, and I wonder if the minister at some

point could inform us how much has generated in that fund to date.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to report the results of the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board's 2000 Call for Bids

for petroleum rights in the Newfoundland and Labrador offshore area.

I remind you that last year's Call for Bids resulted in record work expenditure commitments of $192 million. This

year, $88.6 million in bids were received for ten of fourteen parcels offered, including a $55 million bid by Petro-Canada

and Norsk Hydro for one parcel in the Carson/Bonnition Basin. Petro-Canada and Norsk Hydro have been actively involved

in the offshore area and I am encouraged to see them make such a substantial bid in a new, relatively unexplored

basin.

PanCanadian continued its interest from last year's sale with a bid of $1.6 million for a parcel in the Carson/Bonnition

Basin, and Corridor Resources was successful with a $1.2 million bid for a parcel in the offshore West Coast area

of the Province. This is the second parcel acquired by Corridor offshore western Newfoundland.

Husky Oil was also active, biding on two parcels in the Jeanne d'Arc Basin, and two parcels in the South Whale

Basin, for a total bid of $25 million. In addition to the above, a new player, Polaris Resources, submitted bids

totaling $5.6 million for three parcels in the South Whale Basin. This brings the total work expenditure bids for

lands in our offshore area to approximately $776 million in the last six years.

Although the bids were lower than the record bids received over the past couple of years, they do indicate a sustained

interest in the potential of our offshore, and provide encouragement that major discoveries will be made in new

areas beyond the Jeanne d'Arc Basin.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of the successful bidders and wish them great success

in their exploratory efforts. I will also take this opportunity to welcome Polaris Resources into our offshore.

This is a Calgary-based company and I am proud to say it is run by an ex-patriot Newfoundlander

Mr. Speaker, to place our petroleum industry into perspective, we have major developments ongoing at Hibernia and

Terra Nova. We will see developments at White Rose and Hebron/Ben Nevis in the near future.

In the past few years we have received substantial bids for lands outside the proven area known as the Jeanne d'Arc

Basin and have seen record levels of seismic acquisition, which is the precursor to drilling. Considering all of

these factors, I am optimistic that our petroleum sector will continue to be a major force in the expansion of

our Province's economy.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, on this side of the House share in congratulating the successful bidders. It goes without saying, of course,

that this is indeed a very important industry in our Province, just looking at it from the point of view of employment

and technology transfer, not to mention, of course, the spinoff benefits as a result of our oil industry.

The minister mentioned White Rose. We on this side of the House look forward to the continuing debate with respect

to a mode of development on the While Rose project, and I understand that hearings will be forthcoming in the very

near future.

There is an opportunity, however, from time to time to remind all members in this Legislature of the great Progressive

Conservative legislation, know as the Atlantic Accord, which ought to provide the basis and the foundation of our

oil industry, our offshore industry in the Province. What I want to do is, just very briefly, remind all hon. members

of two of these provisions which are essential. I will quote directly from the Accord, which states that: We must

recognize the right of Newfoundland and Labrador to be the principle beneficiary of the oil and gas resources off

its shores, consistent with the requirement for a strong and united Canada, and -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, if I may, the second provision -

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - to recognize the equality of both governments in the management of the resource and to ensure

that the pace and manner of the development optimize the social and economic benefits to Canada as a whole, and

in particular to Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

While we, of course, welcome the new activity in the offshore in the form of new expenditures for exploration,

we too would like to put the petroleum industry into perspective, as the minister has invited us.

Eighty-eight point six million dollars sounds like a lot of money for exploration and investment, but we have to

put that in the context that at current rates of production, recently elevated by the government, and current oil

prices, the value of oil from Hibernia alone is over $2 billion per year. For $88 million to be spent by the oil

industry as a whole in exploration, in new commitments for the next year, is in fact less than one half of 1 per

cent -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - which is a very, very low rate of exploration for new sources of oil.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am interested today in the statement by the Minister of Justice about a review of the Freedom of Information

Act. I would suggest that, while that is important, it is symptomatic of a larger problem, and that is the lack

of accountability within the structures of government today.

Yesterday's report by the Auditor General could be described as nothing less than a damnation of government's activities

and its reporting mechanisms to this House. For example, on page 12 she says that, of $1.668 billion that is given

to eighty-two Crown agencies directly reporting to this government, only four, totalling $175 million of $1.66

billion, have actually tabled their reports to this House.

I would like to ask the Premier today: How can you justify, in the age we live in, that when it comes to accountability

- we provide these agencies with money, yet the members of this very House are being disenfranchised because information

is not being tabled to them. How can you stand and justify the actions of your government on that front?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say to the Leader of the Opposition that this government takes the issue of accountability very,

very seriously. We, as a government, look forward to the review conducted by the Auditor General. We take it very

seriously. I think it is important at this time that I would give you some background as to what this government

has done in our look at accountability framework here.

What we have done: we have taken major initiatives to implement an accountability framework through policy.

AN HON. MEMBER: You have taken no initiatives.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: We have.

Since this issue was raised in the House last spring we have developed here, within government, two booklets. One

is called A Guidebook for the Improved Accountability of Public Bodies. The other one is A Handbook for the Improved

Governance of Public Bodies. These I will table today.

I want to give you the background today as to what we have done in addition to those books. A person has been engaged

by the Department of Education to assist their boards with the process. A person in the Comptroller General's office

is coordinating the implementation process. Meetings are being held with all six school boards and their executives,

and the Department of Education is in the process of determining what it will impact with Memorial University of

Newfoundland. The Department of Health and Community Services is engaging a person to assist in their boards.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the President of Treasury Board to now complete her answer.

MS THISTLE: Also, I have to tell you that the public bodies, which are now traditionally completed in the strategic

planning process, will start and implement realistic time frames.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplement, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: This is the government that takes accountability seriously. Let me give you an example of how serious

they are about it. Last year in this House when the Budget was released, we said, after an analysis of the Budget,

that the projected deficit for this year on current account would be approximately $200 million. This government

told us that we were fearmongering, that we were lying, and that we were not right. Yet, today or yesterday, in

the announcement the Auditor General says clearly: The true deficit of the Province on this year's account is $221

million. This government has moved cash flows around from its own structures to cook the books. Is that accountability?

Seriously.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I want to comment on the statement made by the member opposite. The true balance of government's

books last year was a $13 million deficit, not a $200 million deficit as the Auditor General referred to. What

it is, is a difference in accounting procedures.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: When the Auditor General combines all government agencies it would account to $200 million. Really,

in effect what we have done - the amount that we are referring to is a cash basis which is in our budget. All others

are contained in the public accounts.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is a difference in accounting procedures. What an explanation from the President of Treasury Board.

Let me ask her: How do you square this circle then? How do you square this circle when the Auditor General says:

I am again recommending to government to report that government report as its deficit or surplus the results -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker.

I am asking the question: How can she square this circle? The Auditor General has asked her to report on its deficit

or surplus in the audited

summary financial statements, which for 1999-2000 was a deficit of $221 million. How

can you stand in the House today and tell the members of the House and the public at large that there is a difference

only because of accounting procedures? The reality is, Minister, the Auditor General has caught you with your hands

in your own pockets. Why don't you stand up and admit it?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, the deficit or surplus in the budget is an accurate reflection of the

results of our financial operations. What the Auditor General is referring to is the accrual method. The accrual

method is adopted in most jurisdictions in Canada, however, since 1949 we have been operating on a cash basis in

our budget. That is what you vote on here in this House of Assembly. The accrual method is done through the Public

Accounts Committee.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Now it is the Official Opposition of the Province's fault. That is what the minister is saying, because

we voted on it what the Auditor General is saying: It is not the government's fault, it is our fault. It is our

fault that there is no accountability in the system.

Let me ask the minister this question, let me ask her to square another circle. Two years ago in this Legislature

the former Minister of Finance stood up in this House, under repeated questions, under repeated Question Periods,

when we talked about why the government was building condominiums at Marble Mountain. He talked about the marketing

surveys that were done. He talked about the pre-sold units that were being done. He talked about how the local

industries supported it. How do you square the findings of the Auditor General that indicate clearly that in Marble

Mountain there were no marketing surveys done since 1994? That, in fact, there was no information that related

to the construction that would say to government, you should build it for the viability of Marble Mountain?

How do you justify the expenditure of those dollars in view of the purposeful misleading statements of a member

of your Cabinet?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will just mention to the hon. member that the should check a little bit and find out the difference cash accounting

and accrual accounting before he asks foolish questions at this House. Government, unlike the hon. member opposite,

does not wish to lose its Marble, as well as its marbles.

Before government embarked on a plan to construct the condominiums at Marble Mountain we looked at the local opportunity

for housing. The problem with Marble Mountain is that is was unable to attract, among others, the type of skier

who does not want to commute from a hotel operation somewhere else that wants to be able to stay at the base of

a hill. By building the condominiums government has opened up a new opportunity for the local people of this Province

who rely on winter tourism to attract people to the Province, who did not have an opportunity to do so in the past.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this member right here always does his homework. I would advise the Minister of Mines

and Energy to take the advice of his colleague, and now co-contender for the top job of the Province: words are

important. This is the minister who has stood up on the record of Hansard and provided information in this House

that is completely in contradiction with what the Auditor General finds.

Minister, how could you get up and support it, and say the statements you have when the Auditor General tells you,

in fact, that what you said in this House was wrong, was not truthful and was not forthright to the people of the

Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, when the people of the Province hear the Leader of the Opposition talking about what has

been said in the House and not, they have a certain degree of skepticism. I remind the hon. member, a few weeks

ago, he was talking about the fact that this whole change in Churchill Falls had never been discussed, never disclosed

in the House. I brought to the public the next day -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The records of the House substantiate what I have said in this House repeatedly.

To finish the point, I brought to the public statements that I made in this House on May 10 of this year which

indicated that the Province was looking for other opportunities to develop the Lower Churchill and, in particular,

would look at American marketers.

Secondly, I have said repeatedly in this House and given frank answers to the statements as to what was occurring

at Marble Mountain. We, on this side of the House, support Marble Mountain. We will continue to do so. What we

did is we looked at marketing it, selling the condominiums and we came to the conclusion that it would be better

to operate it as a hotel operation still owned by the government. That is being done with the support of the local

business community which is, in fact, providing some services there.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the President of Treasury Board. Last year government contravened the Financial Administration

Act when it issued $70.8 million in special warrants when the House was in session and did not table the warrants

within the three days required. The government should have brought the requests for additional funding to the House

by way of a supplementary supply bill at that time. Why did this minister not only condone, but participate in

breaking the laws of this Province passed by this Legislature? How can the people of this Province trust a minister

who knowingly and purposely breaks the laws of this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say from the outset that the government of this Province was in complete

compliance with the Financial Administration Act.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: They were tabled in accordance with the Financial Administration Act. The Auditor General confirmed

that they were tabled as they were supposed to be.

Regarding the issue of special warrants: special warrants can cover any category of expenditures, salaries, forest

firefighting, social assistance, whatever. They were filed in accordance with the Financial Administration Act

and we are in complete compliance.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, on a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: I suggest that the minister stop reading from the 1998 report.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General's report openly accuses the government of abusing special warrants to produce

a surplus or deficit closer to that originally predicted in the Budget. Are you not using special warrants, just

as the Auditor General charges, to mislead not only the public but the financial markets, about the state of the

Province's finances? Why are you cooking the books?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, quite the contrary, in response to the Member for Cape St. Francis. In our Budget last

spring we openly admitted that we could have a surplus of $167 million and, in fact, that was announced upfront

in our Budget. We chose to make different moves, as a government, to bring stability to this government. In fact,

if you were to look back, Moody's Investors Service complimented us on our handling of the administration of government

which put us in a balanced position.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, a final supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me ask the minister: What would happen to a company, under the laws of this Province, that cooked the books

to change its bottom line to manipulate the surplus/deficit position of that company?

In the Auditor General's report itself, it says: in my opinion the government contravened the Financial Administration

Act in that they were not urgently required, and the House of Assembly was in session when the funds were distributed.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary and I ask him to get to his question.

MR. J. BYRNE: The words of the Auditor General, and you are trying to twist them to say she is saying -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you saying that the Auditor General is saying that you did what was right and proper with respect

to the special warrants? What would happen to a company in Newfoundland and Labrador if they were charged with

cooking the books, as you have been charged?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I have to say that the criteria was met for the issuance of special warrants. The process

is: a minister must indicate in writing whether urgent need exists; all documents must be tabled in the Legislature

in accordance with strict time frames; a supplementary supply bill must be approved by the Legislature for all

special warrants related to spending. Mr. Speaker, all conditions have been met. We are in complete compliance

with the Financial Administration Act.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Environment and Labour.

Mr. Speaker, many Workers' Compensation recipients are concerned that government may be about to reduce Workers'

Compensation benefits. I would like to ask the minister today: Are there any plans to significantly decrease Workers'

Compensation benefits below the level they are right now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Some time ago, in fact about a month ago, the Workplace Health Safety & Compensation Commission was tasked

with the responsibility of traveling through this Province to find new ways, I guess, to be able to administer

the Workers' Compensation plan differently from what it is at this particular time.

We have an unfunded liability of about $180 million there. When I asked the Chair of the board, Mr. Trask, and

Mr. Flood, Mr. Warren, Mr. Anstey and Miss Vanta to do the report - basically, there is nothing left out from our

point of view. We want to do a complete overview of the board to seek ways that it can be not either/or, but look

after the needs of the injured worker and at the same time be fair to the employers.

There were no restrictions or preconditions put on the task force, from my point of view. They just want to go

out and see what's what, to be able to be sure of the viability, as I said, of the commission and, at the same

time, protect the injured workers.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, a supplementary.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if we heard - when I asked the question, the Premier said, absolutely,

and I am very concerned about that.

Mr. Speaker, some believe that there is significant abuse in the Workers' Compensation system. A statutory review

committee put forward by the minister two years ago said that only 1 per cent of cases in the system involved abuse

and that 99 per cent of injured workers in the system have legitimate, bonafide cases.

I would like to ask the minister today: Does he agree with the statutory review committee and its findings?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say that there is widespread abuse in the system, I don't know that. What I

am saying to you today is the fact that I would assume that everybody who is injured, is legitimately so, and we

want to work from that particular premise. What I want to say to you, as I said earlier, is the fact that there

are problems at the commission, there are no two ways about that. We have more injuries, and people are on the

system longer. It is the task of this group of people to hold public hearings across the Province, from one end

of her to the other, and everybody who would have a concern, any stakeholder whatsoever, should appear before that

particular committee. There are no restrictions, it is open to the public, and anybody who would want to present

a particular position to the group, advising them, in a sense, of ways that they think the system should be better

run, then by all means do so.

Also, I want to say that after this particular consultation has been done across the Province, there will be a

round table here in St. John's where all of the recommendations that the groups have heard will be brought back.

All of the stakeholders will once again be able to sit around the table, see what has been recommended, and hopefully,

as a result of all that, be able to come forward with the best plan to ensure the financial integrity of the system,

and at the same time provide benefits to the injured workers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think we all agree that there are problems with the commission when we have a $180 million unfunded liability.

The concern in the Province today by injured workers is the fact that this unfunded liability is going to be brought

back on the backs of injured workers in this Province. That is the concern that we have been raising here today.

I would like to ask the minister: Will the minister make a commitment today that Workers' Compensation benefits

will not be cut below the level they are at today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labor.

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I cannot do that, because what would happen is: if I were to do that, then I would hamstring

the committee that would be traveling throughout the Province to hear all stakeholders. At the end, whatever recommendations

will be brought forward, I would hope, would be in the best interest, as I said, of protecting the injured worker

and at the same time being able to maintain integrity of the system.

I cannot say that the benefits will be cut, any more than I can say that the assessment to the employers will be

higher. That is not my decision to make.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and it relates to the violent stabbing of

a teenage girl in Labrador City which took place on September 1. To date, Minister, no charges have been laid.

As part of the investigation, evidence was sent to Halifax and on to Ottawa for DNA testing. Some evidence has

been received but there is more outstanding. The stress on the families, the young girl, and the community, as

a result of waiting for this case to be solved is great.

I ask the minister if he is satisfied with this level of service, and in particular the long wait that must be

endured by victims waiting for test results to be returned from laboratories?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I, just today had correspondence from the parent of the victim of this particular incident

concerning this matter, and intend to inquire - it is an RNC matter - as to exactly why it is taking so long to

have the exhibits tested. They are tested at a forensic laboratory in Halifax. There have been some results returned

thus far. Again, the results of those tests that have been returned cannot be released because of investigative

purposes, of course. We do not want to interfere in the police investigation. Those results, themselves, are crucial

and important in that continuing investigation.

There were quite a number of other exhibits - in the range of dozens, I do believe - that were also sent, where

the tests have not been returned yet. There are certain protocols to be followed at the laboratory. My indications

and information to date is that the protocols and the necessary tests just have not been prepared. It is not a

case of anybody being slow or tardy, but it takes time to follow the necessary protocols. It is very frustrating

for the parents here and it is very frustrating for the RNC. They would love to apprehend the culprit in this particular

case and lay charges, but it has to be done properly. It is an ongoing investigation and we hope that it is, in

fact, concluded in due course in a timely fashion.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister if waits of this duration are normal in the Province in cases of this nature; and, if so, what

has he done, as minister, probably in coordination with other Justice ministers in Atlantic Canada, to improve

the situation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not interfere in any investigations and would not intend to do so.

Again, the length of time that it takes to get results back often depends upon the type of test to be done and

what the tests are being conducted upon. There are certain protocols to follow with respect to various exhibits

that have been seized. Some of them have been completed, some have not. It is not a case of anybody attempting

to be tardy. The RNC would like to have the information back as soon as possible, and they have been on the laboratory

to ask them to do that; but again, they just have not completed the proper protocols.

To my knowledge, the Minister of Justice and the Department of Justice certainly would not interfere and try to

prioritize one case over another. That is an investigative matter that is in the hands of the RNC. Again, as indicated,

I will check with the RNC to see what exactly the status is and when they do expect them back, and I can inform

the member accordingly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. The Auditor General has identified the

aging ferry fleet in this Province as a serious issue. In fact, seven of the twelve vessels owned by the government

are twenty-five years of age or older. As a matter of fact, the entire fleet has an average age of twenty-three

years. That is very serious when we consider that the life expectancy of one of these boats is twenty-five years,

so therefore the seaworthiness of these vessels is certainly unreliable. I would like to ask the minister: What

plan does the government have to replace or refit these vessels?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, it did not take a review or an inspection by the Auditor General to remind us on this

side that we need some work done on our ferries in the Province. We realize that every day in this office; however

we do, under the circumstances, take a very serious look at all our ferries in the Province - all our equipment.

including ferries - and make sure - we have to go through CSI approval, too. The member should remember that all

of those vessels are not just put out to sea, or taken out from a wharf or put out on any run in this Province

or anywhere else in Canada, unless they are CSI approved. They must be. We get that ticket, we get that certificate,

and then they are put out.

However, to address the member's question with regard to new vessels and the Auditor General's concern with regard

to new vessels, we do not have the money - with the monies that are required for education, for health and other

areas in this Province - to put money into brand new vessels. Even if we did, the Auditor General's report certainly

does not hold true on two of the vessels that she mentioned, and I have the figures to back it up.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, like the Auditor General, we all realize the situation with the aging of the ferry system.

How you are handling it is what the question is, for the people especially who use these services in this Province.

In recent years, the government's policy seems to be to purchase these derelicts and then spend millions of dollars

refitting them for Canadian standards. At the end, you are still left with these old vessels that have short life

expectancy. We are asking, on policy, why doesn't the government put in place a ship replacement policy that would

provide modern vessels that are suitable for the needs of this Province and can provide twenty-five or more years

of seaworthiness?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ with what the hon. member said with regard to the so-called derelicts

that the Auditor General mentioned in her report. You ask the people on Fogo Island and Change Islands about the

MV Earl W. Windsor and they will tell you what (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will give you one example. She mentioned the MV Earl W. Windsor. People on Fogo Island

and Change Islands love this vessel; the people in the Province who use it love the vessel. To give you an example

of what should be done with regard to policy versus the accounting services in my department or any other, we bought

the MV Earl W. Windsor for $300,000. We spent approximately $2.6 million on that vessel, approximately $3 million.

That vessel, when we finished - it would have cost us $23 million for a new vessel to replace the vessel at the

time. Today it would cost us $42 million. That vessel is out there not causing us any trouble, any harm. She is

CSI inspected, she is maintained. She just came down off refit. We had her in for some minor problems, to fix some

shafts and so on, and we put her through her annual refit. She is back in the water now, unless there is some maintenance,

we are into another year.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, we all know that some have been started to be addressed. Yes, there are some that are

in good shape and, as refits go, that will certainly help people in that particular area of the Province. But there

are twelve vessels, I say to the minister, with an average age of twenty-three years old. When are you going to

address those? What I am asking the minister is: Has the minister considered the value to the Province in jobs,

purchase of materials, and services of replacing worn out vessels with new vessels built right here in Newfoundland,

for instance, at the Marystown shipyard? Have you considered that?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, with all the ferries in our fleet here - we have approximately twelve of our own and

nine under contract, for a total of twenty-one vessels. With all of the cars and trucks in our fleet, with all

the snow clearing equipment, with all the summer maintenance equipment, I would love to have all new equipment.

Then I would not want any maintenance budget; but I know full well that the President of Treasury Board is not

going to give me any money for that.

We put in x number of dollars for maintenance every year. We get those dollars and we do the best we can with them.

If there is any monies for new vessels, we will look at that. We are going to look at it. Somewhere in the future

we will look at the possibility of acquiring either used vessels or new vessels. If there are new vessels that

have to be constructed, well naturally, we would look at the Province, but we cannot guarantee anything. We cannot

guarantee what is going to happen in the future. Under the existing regulations that we have governing vessels

in this Province, we have an excellent system.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

The hon. member has time for one quick question.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the parliamentary assistant for Fisheries and Aquaculture. I would like to refer to -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: I would like to direct a question in relationship to the statement that he read here in the House

today. We all know that this eminent person's panel was put in place and were supposed to report back on the damage

that was being caused to our cod stocks by the overpopulation and growing seal herd back prior to the election

of November 27 -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question, time is running out. A quick question.

MR. FITZGERALD: - but because of reasons we all know, that report was delayed and was supposed to be released later

in November. Now I understand it is going to be later in the new year. Number one, I ask the member if he can let

the House know when that report will be released? Number two, why are we still going through the process of having

somebody tell us what the seal population of the Northeast Coast is?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the member opposite for the question. I do not think there is any doubt in the minds of Newfoundlanders

that seals eat cod, and most Newfoundlanders know that. As for the committee, yes, the committee was delayed this

fall because of an election and they will be meeting early in the new year. We will make representation to them

and the report will be down shortly after that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

MR. MANNING: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

During Question Period I proposed a question to the Minister of Environment and Labour concerning workers compensation

benefits. The question was: Does the minister have plans to significantly decrease workers compensation benefits

below the level they are already at? When I asked the question, the Premier answered across the House: Yes, absolutely,

it must be done. The minister, in his response, said that there was no decision reached yet. You cannot have it

both ways on that side of the House so I would like to ask who -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

There is absolutely no point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to table the annual report of the Pippy Park Commission.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the best Public Accounts Committee in Canada, according to the Premier

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: - I would like to present the report of the Standing Committee of Public Accounts with respect to

public hearings in the Department of Education, the transfer of school board assets and liabilities, the Avalon

East School Board. I would like to thank the members of the committee, the witnesses and the staff. There were

some very interesting recommendations, I say to the Minister -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, we will not get into that now. That is for another time.

I would just like to present the report, that is all.

AN HON. MEMBER: Go ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave of the House, do you want me to say a few -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: A very busy committee, 112 pages.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to table the annual report of the Office of the High Sheriff of Newfoundland for

the period, April 1, 1999 to March 31, 2000.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Pursuant to

section 273(3) of The Elections Act, 1991, I hereby table the annual report of the Chief Electoral

Officer on election finances for the period January 1, 1999 to December 31, 1999.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. The Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 15.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 15.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Establish Holocaust Memorial Day in the Province." (Bill

33)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure at this point in time to rise to introduce this Bill 33 into

the Legislature. Bill 33 establishes for the Province a Holocaust Memorial Day. It is a day for us to reflect about

the enduring lessons that are contained and which came about as a result of the Holocaust. Mr. Speaker, this declaration

is of great significance to the Jewish community both in Newfoundland and Labrador and nationally, and I would

suggest probably even internationally.

Mr. Speaker, during the Second World War many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and Canada, with its allies took

part in a prolonged armed struggle, costly in human life and suffering, to defend democracy and freedom. The Holocaust

was the greatest suffering that was probably ever endured by human beings in the world. It was genocide. It showed

the terrible nature of mankind to man at certain periods in our history. I do not think there is anything that

was more indicative of how cruel mankind can be to his fellow man than in what happened to the Jewish people, the

Jewish community, in the Holocaust. It is one more way to remind us of the tragedies and violence that surround

hate and racism. Even today, all of us know wars and violence are participated in because of the hatred that is

engendered by racism.

As a Province we acknowledge - and I think it is an appropriate time of year for us to acknowledge this as a House

- the Holocaust and to teach about the Holocaust, national unity and combating racism and hate in the provincial

curriculum for the Province's kindergarten to Grade XII schools. We do that and we should do it, and we should

continue to do it.

The Holocaust Memorial Day will be a day of observance on the provincial calendar determined by the Jewish lunar

calendar. I want to commend my colleagues in the provincial government, the Canadian Jewish Congress and members

of the Jewish community in Newfoundland and Labrador for their work to see this bill enacted.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize the presence, if I could, of the Canadian Jewish Congress and the Jewish

community in Newfoundland and Labrador, in the gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: I am sure I speak for every person in this Legislature, and every person in this Province, when I

say that none of us can imagine the kind of suffering the Jewish people underwent in the Holocaust, but it stands

as a reminder to all of us that hatred and racism have no place in human life. We want to recognize, too, the contribution

that the Jewish community makes to this Province.

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this bill to establish a Holocaust Memorial Day.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We stand today to squarely support the initiative by government in the legislation that has been put forward. We

need not be reminded so much of what the bill is about, but what it embodies and the theme of what it means. In

many ways, in freely, open, democratic countries around the world, like this one in this Legislature today, we

are here because of the sacrifice that was made by people who were impacted by the Holocaust.

The type of debate that is lacking, I believe, in the free world - in my view, we have not paid enough attention

in recent times to it. You see the movements in Europe of (inaudible), I believe, the type of language and right

wing, ultra-conservative sorts of views that have crept back into freely open political structures in debates today.

This legislation is one that forever and a day, for time in memorial, will pay homage to what transpired, to the

human sacrifice of the human condition, to the human sacrifice that was made on behalf of a particular part of

our community. We need not look beyond our borders, beyond our own provincial jurisdiction - within our own families

and friends, for example - of people who were impacted directly with grandparents, great-grandparents, and even

fathers and mothers, who suffered under the hand of that totalitarian regime; people in this Province, some of

whom are in the gallery today.

As a party, we stand in support of this initiative today by government. We know fully, as well, that having the

Premier introduce it puts significance and importance to this piece of legislation, when the leader of the government,

the Premier of the Province, introduces this legislation. We certainly are proud to stand today to support this

legislation.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to rise and join wholeheartedly in support of the recognition of Yom HaShoah as Holocaust Memorial Day in

the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a memorial to all of those who died in the Holocaust during the

Second World War.

I welcome the representatives of the Jewish community who are here in the House today to hear the speeches and

the recognition of Holocaust Memorial Day, which has been celebrated or recognized in this Province - celebrated,

I guess, is not the proper word - but has been observed for over fifty years in this Province by members of the

Jewish community who also remind us that it was not just members of the Jewish faith, or Jewish race, who were

exterminated by the Nazi government, their collaborators and supporters, but that indeed the atrocities included

people because of their race, religion, physical and mental disability, sexual orientation, political beliefs,

Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, socialists, and anybody whom the Government of Germany did not wish to

continue to live.

I think I can help us understand, here in Newfoundland and Labrador, why this is necessary by reading, with permission,

from a broadcast the other day by Robin McGrath, which was broadcast on CBC Radio. Robin McGrath's father was a

member of this House. I am going to quote her words because she explains very well how this affects us here in

Newfoundland and Labrador. She says as follows: For over fifty years now, Jews in Newfoundland have been remembering

their 6 million fellow Jews who died during the Second World War, as well as the multitude of gypsies, homosexuals,

Communists and mentally and physically handicapped who were exterminated by the Nazis in an effort to create a

perfect race of human beings. Thanks to the men and women who fought and worked to defeat the German allies, the

Nazi plan did not succeed and we remain a society which welcomes and protects people of all faiths and abilities.

Some people have wondered why it is important that we here in Newfoundland take steps to enshrine a Holocaust Memorial

Day into our legislation. For many years now there has been an annual memorial service held at the Synagogue in

St. John's, a service that has always been well attended by dignitaries, war veterans, clergy and ordinary citizens

from the non-Jewish community. These guests have listened to people like retired art dealer, Ernie Mauskopf, who

lost his parents and his two little brothers in a concentration camp on one day in July of 1944; businessman, Philip

Riteman, who spent two of his teenage years in Auschwitz and who still travels all over Newfoundland speaking to

teenagers about the dangers of race hatred; and Claire Salama, a well-known teacher in St. John's, whose father

lost his first wife and their two-year-old boy to the savage tactics of Hitler's extermination squads.

In recent years, as the number of people in the Jewish community has declined, the gentile community has stepped

in to ensure that the service remains a spiritual and intellectual stimulant to memory. People like Mr. James Coffee,

a war veteran who helped with the liberation of Auschwitz, Professor Gerhardt Bassler, who documented the Newfoundland

immigration policies that prevented Jewish Newfoundlanders from bringing their relatives here to safety, and the

students of Prince of Wales, who learned and performed beautiful Hebrew songs for the service, have all joined

with those of the Jewish faith to educate us about those tragic and unnecessary events.

Some people have questioned why a community as small as Newfoundland, where there are so few people of the Jewish

faith, needs legislation to remember the Holocaust. I was born in Newfoundland, of Irish Catholic ancestry; however,

my children have a Jewish father. So, if I had been born elsewhere, I might have been safe but they could have

been exterminated. My eldest brother was mentally handicapped, so he could have gone to a camp also. My mother

suffered a crippling disease as she got older, so I would have lost her too. Since my mother's eldest brother was

also of limited intelligence, he would have been killed and, with two mentally handicapped people in my family,

we would all have been a genetic poor-bet.

Mr. Speaker, I say that I share some of those genes, so I guess I would be in that category. She goes on to say:

Those of us who were of normal mental and physical capabilities, whatever normal means, would most likely have

been sterilized to prevent us from passing on the bad genes. There is hardly a citizen in this Province who would

not be directly or indirectly under threat if we did not have good laws to protect our rights. We need to remember

the Holocaust because, while it may never happen again in quite the same way, it could happen in a different way

if we let our guard down.

The Holocaust wasn't just about Jews, it was about human rights, and it was probably the most horrific lesson we

will ever have in the importance of guarding those rights with vigilance. A Holocaust Memorial Day will be a welcome

reminder of that lesson, and we should applaud the Legislature of this province for being open to such a bill,

and thank the members of the Jewish community for seeing it through.

I cannot say anything better than was said by Robin McGrath on that broadcast. I think it is worth remembering

that this Holocaust Memorial is really for all of us, for our future and for our commitment to human right in this

country and around the world.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to close the debate, and I think it is appropriate that we do this. I do

not believe there is any further need for debate. I am sure my colleagues on both sides of the House would agree

that all of us, as we said today, recognize the lessons that we should learn from the great human tragedy of the

Holocaust and the genocide that ensued.

I think that all of us should every day be reminded of what the Jewish community suffered. Through education and

through bills such as this, and initiatives such as this that have been brought forward by the Jewish community

in Newfoundland, all of us will well remember how important human rights are, as the Member for Quidi Vidi-Signal

Hill just brought forward for us, how precious human rights are to us, and how much suffering has been in this

world because other people have chosen to trample upon human rights and trample upon the right of individuals to

live in dignity.

So, Mr. Speaker, I want to close by congratulating the Jewish community in bringing this initiative forward to

government, and I want to say again, on behalf of all Members in the House I am sure, as we have just seen indicated,

that this to us too, while it will not take much debate to move this bill - well it has not taken too much debate

- but to all of us is an important initiative for this place that protects and guards human rights and democracy.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Establish Holocaust Memorial Day In The Province," read a second time,

ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Before we move on, the Chair would like to set it into the record that this bill on second reading

was carried unanimously.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 12, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: In this particular instance, we know why committee is set up, we know why third reading is set up

in this Legislature and I think it has very little to do with this bill, and I wonder if we could have leave to

move committee and third reading on this bill and it is done?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: From our point of view, yes, Mr. Speaker, the sooner the better. In this House, with leave, we can

operate in this manner. That is my understanding.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would have no hesitation in moving all three readings this afternoon. I wanted to discuss with the Premier and

the Leader of the Opposition, including an additional word in the recitals. Perhaps you could talk about that behind

the curtain before....

[A portion of this transcript is missing due to a technical difficulty]

The third recital lists the planned atrocities against people because of their race, religion, physical disability,

mental disability and sexual orientation. I would have wanted to include political beliefs because that was also

part of the atrocities that were committed and part of the human rights that were violated during this process.

So if we were going to have a Committee stage that would be something that I would want to see included to expand

the bill to recognize that as well. If there was unanimous consent to that we can certainly insert the words `political

beliefs' as part of the recitals.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: I certainly have no objection to inserting that into the bill and saying that we have done Committee

and third reading. I think what we are talking about here is the broad base of human rights anyway.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I concur with what the Premier says, Mr. Speaker. We have no problem with adding that, as suggested

by the Leader of the New Democratic Party, the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair is going to look for some clarification as to what we are doing now. We have just passed

second reading. We normally go into Committee.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, I think what we are all saying here is that we will waive Committee and third reading

and declare this bill now gone through third reading. We are doing that by leave of the Legislature.

MR. SPEAKER: So we could have a motion then that we move it.

AN HON. MEMBER: I so move.

MR. SPEAKER: Moved.

All those in favour of the motion, aye.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: Against?

I declare the motion carried.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before we put it to third reading, we would just like to clarify this. Is it my understanding then that the amendments

or the changes recommended by the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi will be included in the Bill?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: So, will we consider the Bill as amended?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Establish Holocaust Memorial Day in the Province." read a third time, ordered

passed and its title to as on the Order Paper. (Bill 33)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997." (Bill 44)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bellevue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, this particular bill, Bill 44,

An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997: right now the Department

of Education or the Minister of Education does not have the legislative authority to authorize the establishment

of private schools outside this Province. It is great that it would follow on the heels of the bill we just passed.

Mr. Speaker, the amendment will assist government in the promotion of Newfoundland and Labrador's considerable

education and training expertise. The legislative amendment will permit the Minister of Education to enter into

contractual agreements to establish provincially regulated schools in foreign countries. There will be no cost

to the taxpayers of the Province for this initiative. In fact, it should provide an opportunity to form partnerships

between the private foreign schools and our post-secondary institutions.

Right now we have requests, for example, to operate schools in Taiwan using the Newfoundland curriculum in their

schools and this will give the minister the authority to be able to use our curriculum in the foreign countries

around the world. I think it is a great initiative, and there is no cost to the Province.

I move second reading of this Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise, as well, to comment on Bill 44,

An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997. It appears that the Minister of

Education can indeed enter into agreements that are contractual and will not cost any money. I hope that when it

comes to the committee that we will have some opportunity to question, if you enter into any agreement what sort

of agreement it is. Because there has been a lot of money put into the curriculum of Newfoundland and Labrador,

and to say that it would be a freebie - these are the sort of things that I would like to have the Minister of

Education or the Parliamentary Assistant comment on in the committee stage as we get into it.

The agreement - and again as I read it I was thinking more along the lines that it would be students of ours traveling

outside the Province who would be attending these foreign schools. This is what the suggestion of it is, that if

someone is moving outside the Province, let us say to attend a Prep school down in Boston somewhere; is this the

intent of this amendment to allow students from Newfoundland and Labrador, who are young students, to attend these

schools and to get their certification of secondary education with regard to a diploma. Again, I am hopeful that

when it comes to the committee stage that it will be fully explained what the agreements are, what is the purpose

of it, et cetera.

As I am speaking on secondary education as well, and I rise today to comment that the curriculum - we are talking

about entering into agreements with private schools in Hong Kong or wherever it might be, but I suggest to the

House today that when we are talking about curriculum, I think we have a lot of work to do at home with regard

to getting our curriculum in order. There has been on the books, since the mid-nineties, a revitalized high school

curriculum which looks good on the books, but when it came to implementation it is not there. The implementation

of this particular curriculum; it has been asked, by the educators of this particular Province to get on with it.

My oldest daughter is attending post-secondary right now and when she was in Grade X, just entering Level I, there

was a big hoopla about the new revitalized high school curriculum. She was to graduate three years hence from that

point in time under these new regulations, but that curriculum, I say to you, was never implemented. There were

changes in course names and changes in text, but even as I stand here today, that reorganized high school which

was supposed to be implemented three years ago is still resting on the shelves somewhere.

Again, when we talk about bringing in amendments to the School Act and entering into agreements with private schools

in the far east, I say to the parliamentary assistant, that we have to get our own house in order first. We cannot

hope to reach out beyond our borders when within our schools, as I speak today, there are gaping holes in the curriculum

of, in particular, the secondary. I would even extend that back from the K-XII itself. There have been some initiatives

but it is disheartening to see that the government of the day - again, these reform promises that are never fulfilled

and continue to be talked about. There was a great effort, I suppose, at restructuring.

Yesterday, when I stood in this House, I talked about that since 1996 we have over 100 schools that were closed

down in this Province with the idea that these closures would bring about tremendous savings. That state of the

art buildings, state of the art curriculum would be implemented to make sure that the students of Newfoundland

and Labrador would be in safe, healthy environments. They would be given a curriculum that would put them on the

leading edge of education in, not only this country, but certainly in this particular continent, and indeed the

world. So it is disheartening.

My colleague from Windsor-Springdale visited a school last night - and I think he will probably have an opportunity

a little later on today. He has a video there. He has a written report. I will not steal his thunder, but let me

tell you it is alarming that there are students in this Province who are in buildings that are literally falling

down around their ears. When we talk about entering into curriculum agreements with outside parties, outside this

Province, again I say, we have to get our own house in order before we move outside the boundaries of this particular

Province.

Again, in reference to that particular school, let me tell you when you can slide a book from the inside to the

outside there is something wrong; and that is not passing it through a window. I go back to my colleague, maybe

that is how the art work is disappearing in some of the places too. I do not know if it is going out the windows

or whatever, but in this particular school there are things flying out through the walls. That is how desperate

a state this particular school is in. There is a tendency to place blame, and parents and students are placing

blame on school boards for not taking care of this particular situation. We have to go one step higher. I say higher

in the sense of bureaucracy, not in esteem. I have to say that when you look at this situation we have to put the

responsibility clearly where it should rest, and it rests with the Department of Education and the Minister of

Education. There has to be a guarantee that within the confines of this great Province of Newfoundland and Labrador,

our children, our students, have to have a decent place to go to school.

When we look to the school boards - and I do not have to go past the Auditor General's Report - eight of the eleven

school boards in our Province today are operating at a deficit. That tells it all, that the expectations of this

government, with regard to the delivery of education in this Province, is put on the shoulders of school boards.

It is put on the shoulders of teachers and support staff on the front lines; but they cannot, I say to you, bear

the burden unless they are given, and they have to be given, the resources which are necessary to deliver a system

of education that is going to allow our students to be the best in, not only the Province certainly and not only

this country, but in the world. There is a lot of reiterate, a lot of talk, but it is action that we absolutely

need.

We have the Avalon East School Board right now talking about something in excess of a million dollar deficit. We

saw in this board - and I refer to my colleague going to that meeting last night. I can tell you there is more

than one school in the Province that is in the desperate state that you described.

I will get back to the St. John's board because the St. John's board were forced to close down St. Thomas of Villa

Nova. Now, this is a school that last spring the school board put in a request for $600,000 to make sure that in

September the learning environment there would be safe and healthy for the students. What did the Department of

Education do? What did the Works, Services and Transportation do? They cut down that request to a little over $100,000.

They sent in a few litres of paint. They sent in some people with some scrubbers and things to cover over the dirt,

mould and mildew that was in that particular school. What happened? These children, close to 700 of them, were

in this building for three months, and at the end of three months, the board had no choice, they had to close down

that school. Then the cost of housing those students for the remainder of the school year became a very difficult

problem.

So I say to you, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the state of education, supposedly reform education, all we have

seen in this decade is what I would call restructuring, because the reform has not yet taken place. It has not

happened. We have closed down schools. We put more children on buses and shipped them farther around but we have

not fulfilled those promises which started in the early 1990s, the duplication of services and the elimination

of cross-busing. What we are finding now, in the year 2000, that it is all coming home to roost. Unless this government

looks at education as a priority, which it should be, because we know - and we hear it time and time again.

If we want to go outside the borders of this Province, we see it in places like Ireland where education, as a priority,

carried out as a priority, certainly made a tremendous difference with regard to social programs, the economy,

and the whole general outlook. I do not have to go back too much in my experience to know that education is - excuse

the cliche - the key. We need to ensure and remind the government of how important it is to concentrate on that

which is most valuable to us today in this Province. It is not Voisey's Bay, it is not Churchill, but the children

of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have to give them what they need in order to have a good chance

and a good probability of moving forward, not only in the primary, not only in the elementary, junior high, intermediate,

in the secondary, but on into the post-secondary, because we know now what we did not know probably twenty or thirty

years ago. That we have to be prepared to go from cradle to grave with regard to education.

We know ourselves, as adults here in this Chamber, that we continue to learn. The moment that we say: no, we know

everything, then you start to get into the difficulties. So, we have to look at making sure, without any doubt,

that we look to the schools to put in a curriculum that is adequate for today's needs. That curriculum can be flexible,

it can be ever changing, and it must reflect what is necessary in order to prepare out children for post-secondary

and, indeed, life. Like I said, it goes beyond curriculum. We have to establish the schools. I wonder what happened

to those models of schools that were put before the people back in the early 1990s, these models of community centres,

of neighborhood schools? What ever happened to them? What ever happened to it? We have now, throughout Newfoundland

and Labrador, probably 330 schools. That is not a large number. That is not a number that can get away from you,

something like 330 schools. Yet, out of those 330 schools there are schools like St. Thomas of Villa Nova that

are not fit to be in. We have to make sure we are prepared, that the government is prepared, to get out there and

do what is required to make sure that our children are in schools that are safe and healthy.

The developments through the 1990s, with regard to our schools, have not panned out as well as they should have.

Again, you have to look at the provision of resources to allow the people who are involved in education in Newfoundland

and Labrador to do what they are trained to do.

As I pointed out, the air quality, the environmental factors, or the environmental concerns, are coming back to

roost with regard to the lack of good, solid, maintenance throughout the 1990s. It is alright to have schools,

but we cannot turn our backs on schools, and maintaining schools, with regard to the way that they should be. I

am always amazed. Now that we look at these school buildings as public buildings, it is amazing still to realize

that we are still only spending or allocating or giving money to school boards at a rate of about fifty cents a

square foot for these public buildings which are most important, and yet we turn around and for this building that

we are in right now we allocate something like $2 plus for the same square footage. We are neglecting the schools

out in our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

When I mention that, someone jumps up and says: well, we are building new schools. Well, let me tell you that even

in the construction of new schools you have to maintain them. It doesn't take too long, when you have 200, 300,

400, 500, 600, 700 or more students going through a particular building, to ensure that proper maintenance has

to be done.

I wonder about the school act, because - I was very, I suppose, put out when I read through the Auditor General's

report yesterday, because I know that the act specifically states that no board under the jurisdiction of the minister

- that is eleven boards - no board can operate in a deficit unless the minister has clearly stated that it can

be done. It gives him permission. Again, we find the Auditor General coming back and saying that the act has been

contravened, that the minister has ignored the act, that the minister has allowed school boards under her jurisdiction

- under his jurisdiction, I should say, the acting minister - to permit them to operate under deficits.

Again, what is the act there for? We are amending the act now to allow them to enter into contractual - to sign

contracts to, I suppose, allow them the use of our curriculum. It is not going to cost us anything. If that is

what the act says, fine, we will abide by it, but what do you do when you read an Auditor General's report where

another

section of the act is totally ignored? I do not understand it. I do not understand how ministers can turn

their back on what is written and passed in this particular House. It behooves me to understand why this can happen

and why school boards again are forced - and they are not doing this because they have a choice. They have a commitment

that is laid out in the Schools Act, 1997. They have to do what is required under the act; and everyone, every

party in the delivery of education in Newfoundland, has clearly defined in the act what they have to do.

School councils are in operation because of the act. It is clearly outlined what the responsibilities and duties

of the school councils are. As well, the directors of education have specifically listed in the act their duties

and responsibilities, as do teachers, as do administrators, as do school board trustees. Everything is laid out,

I say to you, in the act. Let me tell you, if there was a teacher out there contravening the act, if there was

an administrator out contravening the act, we know what would happen. Those people would be disciplined because

clearly they have not followed the act. Yet, the Auditor General can come out and say that the minister has contravened

the act and what happens? Nothing. What is the purpose of the act if indeed we can?

To get back to the deficits, and this is the crux of it all, if you are planning something, you must budget enough

to make sure that plan is carried out. If the plan is to provide school buildings in this Province that are fit

to be in, there has to be enough budgeted to make sure that happens.

Let me tell you, even in my own district of Avalon West, the Whitbourne school put in a request for two years running

to have a roof repaired. It was only in the third year that it was actioned, that it was done. I can tell you how

much damage was done within that school and how the integrity of the environment was, I suppose, compromised by

the continual leakage into that building of the elements of rain and snow. It is just terrible what is happening

out there.

Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts, again, another classic example where they were sick of replacing tiles. Every

event that came up, they had to put new tiles up, but after a week or so they were saturated. It took two years

to get that emergency taken care of, and that is the obvious stuff. It is just totally, totally unreal. The reaction

time of this government in maintaining the schools is terrible. Not only that, but there has been a change, supposedly

one of these reform changes, that is going to make things better with regard to maintenance.

Whereas before, the

school boards had some degree of control - as a matter of fact, they could put out to tenders; they could be directly

involved in it - not now, because it has to go through Works, Services and Transportation. It is terrible, the

waiting for tenders to take place, for inspectors to come out.

We were trying to get an inspector out to Whitbourne - it was one of those terrible months of Newfoundland weather

- and we were told: well, you will have to wait until a fine day, a fine day to come out and inspect the school.

It is unreal.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: We did finally, I say to the parliamentary assistant, get the inspector out and moved it along,

but it was a fight for something like two years before the leaks were fixed. You would not put up with it in your

own home, so why are we putting up with it with regard to the schools?

I say again to the parliamentary assistant, you know little things lead to big things. It is very, very important

when we talk about schools that we jump on any situation that is going to mushroom into bigger things. The education

of our children is just far too important to allow us to delay in getting things done. The operating budgets of

schools is yet another. I know it is easy to say that there is waste out there, that this is happening and that

is happening, that teachers are using the copiers too much, and this sort of thing, but it is a real, real problem

because they are caught in this Catch-22.

I know that when most of us came up through the grades we had our textbook that was given to us in September. We

went through it, usually from cover to cover, passed it on or sold it at the end of the year, and someone else

used it; but the curriculum is not text-based anymore. It is knowledge-based. It is an inquiry method, and students

are encouraged to go beyond the boarders of their classroom, to go beyond the covers of their text. Here you have

teachers trying to feed this inquiry, or these curious students, and being told by administrators that you can

only take off a certain number of sheets, that copy wise you cannot basically go beyond what should be taken off.

The resources that are within our schools today are of serious concern, because any curriculum initiatives that

have been put in clearly indicate that we have to have the resources behind us in order to truly action what needs

to be actioned when we talk about the education of our children today.

Mr. Speaker, I say to you that Bill 44,

An Act To Amend The Schools Act, is, in all likelihood, a good initiative

and we on this side of the House certainly would not stand in the way of any type of initiative that would enable

the students of this great Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to, I suppose, get a more well-balanced education,

to be able to action an education that would certainly enable them to be productive members of our society and,

as productive members of our society, to be able to continue to learn, and enable them to continue to be enquiring,

to be curious, and to continue, as we go along, to be the best they can be.

In summation, or to end off, again the initiative of Bill 44, I am very curious to hear from the parliamentary

assistant, or the Acting Minister of Education, the true intent of the bill.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) over here.

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know about acting. I would like - and I guess in Committee would probably be the place

- to have some exchange, but I am very curious to know who made the request, why it has been made, and the aspect

of contracts and entering into agreements. I would like to have some understanding before I would give my support

behind this bill, as to where it was going; because, again it was my understanding that this would be for students

who traveled outside the Province and were attending schools outside the Province. Let me tell you, that is a problem.

I know of one particular student, a good student of ours, back about four or five years ago, who traveled to a

Boston prep school, for hockey purposes, on a hockey scholarship, in high school. He went through two or three

years down there and came back in the last year, which was Level III. In coming back at the end of the season,

which was about April, we had to, as educators - as an administrator, as I was at the time - try and piece together

what that young boy had done for two-and-a-half years previous in a prep school down in Boston. Even though the

education seemed to be solid, we had to, in consultation with the Department of Education, go right down through

all of the courses that he had done, the exams and so on and so forth, and decide what was good and what was not

applicable and then make some decisions as to the courses that he had to complete in that last year of high school.

So I do know that there is a problem with our students going out into these private schools or even public schools

outside Newfoundland and Labrador. I just assume that the intent of the bill is to make sure that in the transition,

if they return to the Province, or even if they are still outside the Province, they could be awarded some sort

of a secondary certificate, or whatever.

From what I heard the parliamentary assistant say, somehow or another it is the private schools looking to get

in on our curriculum and to use our curriculum in their schools. That is interesting. As I said, in committee or

in the next reading, I would just like to have some clarification on exactly what these contracts would be, what

is the purpose of them, so on and so forth, and where we are going on this. Having said that, I will sit down and

let the proceedings of the House continue.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a pleasure to rise and have a few words to say about Bill 44,

An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997.

As my colleague has said, we are certainly not going to stand in the way of this bill, and we support this bill.

We know that this is going to make things a lot easier for students, and I certainly will not speak against this

bill. I support it.

Mr. Speaker, it is important that I do have a few words to say about an incident that I was involved in last night.

I saw firsthand what our school system is like these days. I was at a school in Robert's Arm last night, Green

Bay South Academy actually, and there was a good presentation made by the school council. What I saw last night,

I could not believe. I hardly believed what I had seen there. I could see the things that this school has been

going through in the past four or five years. For us to subject our children to such unsafe conditions, it is unbelievable

that we could do this in this day and age.

Mr. Speaker, the current crisis in our school system today can be attributed to the attitude of government officials

and their lack of concern for the buildings that teachers and students have to spend a great deal of their time

in. It is well known that schools have become third class buildings and that much needed money for improvement

and maintenance is being wasted on frivolous projects. What government does not seem to realize is that these same

students, who r spend roughly eight hours a day in a filthy and unhealthy environment, will one day be the government

officials and business leaders of our country. I am sure that these students will not forget the lack of concern

and commitment that government exhibits today.

If I may, Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer to some of the conditions that I have seen and that were outlined

last night by the school council in the presence of the school board for that district and over 300 parents and

concerned citizens in the Robert's Arm area. That is a great number, for a small community in my district, to show

up on a night with concerns over, not only the education of their children, but the facilities that these children

have to be in all day.

Mr. Speaker, if I may, I will go through some of the things that were brought out last night. In March, 1998, there

was an air-quality survey done on this school. Testing was specifically performed to record the levels of carbon

dioxide and bio-aerosols, the temperatures and the relative humidity. These tests found that the carbon dioxide

levels at times were up to five times the recommended range, and a recommendation was made for an air exchange

system to be installed in that school to alleviate that problem.

Mr. Speaker, a forty-two page report was sent to the school board after that consultation in 1998, and an assessment

was done. Some of the recommendations were done, and a lot of others were not done. Mr. Speaker, the board -

AN HON. MEMBER: How many children are in that school?

MR. HUNTER: Approximately 250 children in that school.

I will give you some statistics, I say to the member opposite, on some of the things that they did in a survey

on the children of that school. It is just unbelievable! As a result of the survey, forty-seven out of 153 respondents

experienced health problems. Roughly 69 per cent of these children, about fifty-three of them, felt that the conditions

were related to the environment of Green Bay South Academy in Robert's Arm. Of 106 respondents who reported problems,

sixty reported sinus congestion problems, frequently or always; sneezing, headaches, eye irritations, fatigue,

dizziness, aching joints, back pain, nausea, skin irritation. Fifteen people reported that they had asthma, thirty-eight

reported continuous sinus problems, fifteen reported skin irritations, and twenty-three reported other allergies.

Mr. Speaker, this clearly shows that this school is suffering from sick-school syndrome. I know that this is occurring

in a lot of other schools in our Province.

Mr. Speaker, over the last few years, with the school restructuring, particularly in the Green Bay South area,

a lot of money has been saved by closing up schools . We ask the question; what happened to the money? All these

hundreds of thousands of dollars that were saved in closing schools and restructuring were supposed to go back

into the education system, into the infrastructure and into programming for the students to make their education

as good as possible and supply a facility that is as good as possible. This was not done, Mr. Speaker.

The maintenance of this school was ignored over the last number of years. Mr. Speaker, I have a video outlining

and showing the problems at that school. I could not believe it when I stood up by the outside wall and could place

this video on the floor and shove that video from the inside to the outside, right out onto the ground. That is

not acceptable in our schools today. I was afraid to walk over the floor because it was bouncing up and down. The

structure underneath was rotted so bad, you could go down and just pick it out with your fingers. You could see

the deterioration in the walls. Dozens of tiles were stained with water stains. All along the walls you see mildew,

below and above the windows.

Mr. Speaker, we subjected out children to these kinds of conditions over the last number of years, but last night

enough was enough. The parents of Green Bay South gathered at the school gymnasium, over 300, with the school board

and the school council in attendance, and myself, and they voiced their concerns. They said: we are not sending

our kids back into this facility.

I must admit, Mr,. Speaker, that some of the leakage problems with the roof are being taken care of as we speak.

The crews are out there today, assessing and doing what is possible to do with the roof. But this is only a short-term

solution to a long-term problem. This school is about twenty-seven years old and it is in need of a lot of repairs,

a lot of structural repairs. From what I saw last night, I do not know but it is better to discard the school and

build a new school, because over half of this school is not fit to put a student into.

I have to congratulate the parents for showing up last night and voicing their concerns. Mr. Speaker, the kids

are our future. We must be concerned about the safety of our children and the effect that school conditions have

on them, not only while they are in school but for years to come. They have these problems now and a good many

of them will keep these problems, will have these problems for years to come and it will affect their future. So,

we cannot stand by and let a thing like money destroy our youth, destroy their health.

Mr. Speaker, that report that came out in 1998, why wasn't it presented to the people? Why wasn't it known by the

parents that there was this problem in that school. Obviously, it seems like somebody made a decision, that we

will do some band-aid repairs, hide the report, not let the parents know, because two years ago the same thing

that happened last night would have happened then. There would have been a congregation of 300 people or more complaining

about the situation in that school and having something done. Now two years later, the deterioration has enhanced,

it has gotten greater. It may be beyond repair now.

So, not only do we have to make sure our children do not go back into that school like it is, but there has to

be major work done as soon as possible in the short-term, but, Mr. Speaker, in the long-term we have to not only

clean the mold outside the walls, we have to strip down the walls and see what deterioration is inside those walls,

because that mold will reappear again within so many months. As my colleague said about the tiles, it is the same

situation in that school, Green Bay South Academy. You replace the tiles one month, a couple of months later you

go back and they are all stained up again. You clean the mildew now, you come back in a couple of months and the

mildew is back again. Our kids have to be in that school breathing this air. It is not fair to them. So, it is

not only in the short-term that we correct this problem by cleaning, but in the long-term, Mr. Speaker, we must

make sure that preventative maintenance be done on a regular basis and an inspection on a regular basis. Every

year that school should be inspected from one end to the other, from top to bottom.

Mr. Speaker, I could not believe it when I walked into that school last night and went into the janitor's room,

with no door to the room and chemicals stored on the shelf there, with young children having access to that room,

access to those chemicals, access to parts of that school where probably they should not be, but you know the way

kids are today. They like experimenting with things and if they see chemicals like that, God only knows what could

happen. We are lucky today that there has not been a tragic situation in Green Bay South Academy; very lucky.

I think, as I said to the school board and to the school council last night, a full assessment has to be done immediately

into this situation at Green Bay South Academy. Short-term problems like doors - Mr. Speaker, I could not believe

this: when I walked into one of the washrooms where some special needs students were being attended to on a regular

basis, where they are being washed up, some of these students are in personal care and they have to be washed up

and cleaned up in this sink. Do you know what I found? When I looked underneath -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. HUNTER: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HUNTER: I could not believe it, Mr. Speaker. When I looked underneath the school, I saw water and that much

sludge underneath and the deterioration of the foundation of that school. Not only that, there was a pipe from

that sink and washroom draining right in underneath the school, not tied into the sewer system, not tied to outside

of the building which would have been better than letting it go underneath the school. That type of situation,

Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe that we could allow that to happen.

When I questioned the superintendent on that, he alluded to the fact that we do not have the money to do the necessary

preventative maintenance, we do not have the money to carry out the repairs, we do not have the money to do anything

with that school other than put some paint on it, replace a few tiles and replace a bit of gyproc here and there.

So, Mr. Speaker, where did all the money go in our school restructuring? It had to go somewhere. So I asked the

school board and the director of the school board - and I think we do have a great director, a new person by the

name of Debbie Armstrong, who I have a lot of faith in. I think she will do a good job.

Mr. Speaker, I found out last night that this school board has a $375,000 deficit. By having that deficit then

they have to instruct their maintenance crews and construction crews to cover up things that should be replaced

and repaired. Now we have new tiles put up, new paint put on, but the problem still remains. That is why we have

poor air quality, that is why we have sick kids in our schools today. Seventy-five per cent in some schools are

showing some sort of sickness or illness, that is because of the air quality conditions within the school. Something

has to be done with our education system for our infrastructure in this Province so that our children do not have

to be subject to these kinds of conditions that certainly are unsafe. I cannot blame the people of Green Bay South

for keeping their kids out of school since last Thursday. Not only that, they may be kept out a lot longer if a

written commitment is not made by the school board and by the Department of Works, Services and Transportation,

who are responsible for carrying out some of the work. I have to give credit to them today for immediately looking

into the roof problem and getting the wheels in motion to fix the roof problem, but there are still a lot of problems

outside of the roof and window repair program that the minister has for the schools.

Green Bay South Academy, your officials are out there today and the contractor has been out there working on the

roof system, and I thank them -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Roberts Arm, and I thank them for that, but in the long term we need a lot more work done in the structural

part of the school which does not come under the roof and window program that is under the minister's department.

New capital money has to be found somewhere in the Department of Education and somewhere within government, to

go back into these schools, particularly this one, that I seen last night.

I say to any member who wants to see the condition of Green Bay South Academy and see what the children over there

are subject to on a daily basis, I have the video right here. If anybody would like to see it I certainly would

not mind you having a look at it, because it will blow your mind to see me take this video and slip it underneath

a wall, from the interior to the exterior, and it will fall out on the ground. Unbelievable!

MR. SULLIVAN: Where's that?

MR. HUNTER: In Green Bay South Academy, in my district, Roberts Arm. If anybody does not believe me I certainly

would let them have this video to have a look at it.

Mr. Speaker, having said that I would just like to say I am not going to do anything to uphold Bill 44. As my colleague

said, we certainly support this bill to give our students a chance in other countries to enhance their education,

to make the situation better for them. I certainly would support my colleague here, the critic for the Department

of Education.

Having said that, I thank you for the opportunity to bring up this situation in my district and other situations

that I would like to speak on, particularly when it comes to special needs in other schools in my district. That

is another issue, if everybody could see what special needs children are going through, particularly in Sprucewood

Academy, in Grand Falls-Windsor. Special needs children are left unattended for up to two hours in a school where

there could be a lot of hazards, that they could do a lot of injury to themselves, but because of the cutbacks,

because of the limited amount of resources for special needs assistants, than these children are being thrown to

the wolves, as far as I am concerned. Their health and safety should be a priority in every school in this Province.

I hope the minister certainly takes this into account, that it only takes one accident to bring this government

to accountability. One accident where a child gets seriously hurt or killed. I certainly do not want to see that,

but the possibility of it happening is great. As I read earlier in my opening remarks about the government not

being responsible in taking care of the problems in our education system, they are hiding behind the school boards.

They are hiding behind the fact that they do not have control over the money that the school boards have.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: As my colleague here just said, no accountability on behalf of the school boards. The department should

be accountable, should be responsible, should make sure that the resources and finances are available to the school

boards to make sure that these facilities are sound and safe for our children.

I certainly will be speaking up again, particularly on schools in my district, particularly on Green Bay South

Academy. If we do not see something done with this school within the next year, by next September, then there is

going to be a lot of discontent, a lot of protests. God forbid, if someone might get hurt but when people get riled

up they can certainly speak out and lash out at anybody that is there. Maybe, I hope not, but someone could get

hurt if government does not pay attention and be accountable, and do something for the students in our school system.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: If the Parliamentary Secretary speaks now, he does close debate.

MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response to the hon. Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne, this legislation does permit students in other countries

to be issued certificates from the Department of Education in Newfoundland and Labrador. In addition to that, of

course, where there is a request to set up special schools in other countries, it would be a school that would

be set up - in all likelihood, the teachers probably would be recruited from Newfoundland. So, we are probably

thinking about jobs for Newfoundlanders and Labrad