Manitoba Hansard — 27 November 1989 (Sitting 79A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-79a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 27, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): It is my duty to inform the House that Mr. Speaker is unavoidably absent and, therefore, in accordance with the statutes , I would ask the Deputy Speaker (Mr. William Chornopyski) to take the Chair . PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gary Derksen , Barry Mayba , Dwight Weeks and others calling upon the provincial Government to implement a number of safety measures at the intersection of Waverley and the Perimeter Highway before a serious accident takes place. Thank you. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): I am pleased to present the Civil Service Commission 1988-89 Annual Report. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Deputy Speaker (William Chornopyski): Before we go to Oral Questions , I want to draw all Members ' attention to the gallery .

We have seated in the public gallery, from Garden City Collegiate , twenty-five Grade 11 students under the direction of Roberta Cairns . That is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema). We welcome you. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I know that I join all Members in wishing the Speaker a quick recovery . I know that the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) diagnosed him and sent him off to bed, so hopefully he will have a speedy recovery. Goods and Services Tax Liberal Minority Report Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, from a note of levity to a very serious issue facing all Canadians . It is hard to believe that the GST proposed by Michael Wilson could have been made worse ; however, Don Blenkarn and his fellow Tories have succeeded . Fortunately, for Canadians the federal Liberal Opposition Minority Report has been able to give us some reassurance that there is at least some compassion and fairness in the House of Commons .

The Minority Report concludes that the GST is not revenue neutral, is not visible , is regressive, would cause serious economic damage, would be a nightmare for small business, would force provincial Governments to either raise taxes, cut services or run large deficits, and has proposed and recommended that the goods and services tax as presently proposed be withdrawn and that Governments immediately begin consultations and renegotiations . Can the Deputy Premier tell this House today if he is prepared to endorse the Liberal Minority Report of the House of Commons? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this Government has said all along the GST was not something that was acceptable to us. We have said consistently that this is not our tax and it is not one that we see as being one we want. Certainly , there are a number of problems that we have identified with it, ones which we could debate endlessly in this House . We had a debate here which very clearly laid out the concerns we on this side of the House have. We do not intend to roll over and play dead and have a tax imposed that would further cause problems in western Canada . 3239

Monday, November 27, 1989 *

(1340) Housing Exemption Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The repo rt of Don Blenkarn and his majority Conservatives made a number of recommendations about this GST. It is imperative that this Government totally disassoc iate themselves from any of those recommendations. Will the Deputy Premier state clearly in this House today that older housing cannot be taxed in any form of GST proposed by the federal Government and made it acceptable to this provincial Government? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): How clearly do we have to state that this is not the kind of tax we support?

We do not need it. We do not want it. We do not support it. Mrs. Carstairs: This Deputy Premier , representing his colleagues today, has said that some tax in some form would be acceptable. We want commitments from them as to what is unacceptable . Will the Deputy Premier , on behalf of his colleagues, state clearly in this House today that any GST imposed by their federal cousins would not be allowed to place tax on older housing in Canada? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition would attempt to, in some unclear way, draw the conclusion that this province, in any way, is going to support the type of recommendations that we saw in the Blenkarn Report . We do not have a hard copy of the report, but the preliminary reviews of what I have seen amount to nothing more than tinkering , and it is unacceptable to this Government. Impact Small Business Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, where we get our views from are the very conflicting messages which come from this Government.

The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has said on the record that many of the issues in the GST are acceptable to him. He has also indicated clearly that by 1994-1995, there will be some benefits of the GST to the Province of Manitoba . Those are the Finance Minister 's words . Will the Deputy Premier today clearly state that it is unacceptable for small business to have to bear alone any form of GST imposed by the federal Government? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I would like to take more time than what I am sure is available during Question Period to tell the Leader of the Opposit ion (Mrs. Carstairs) to fasten her seat belt, and we will tell her what we do not like about it because we have consistently said what is wrong with this type of taxation . We have consistently said that if the federal Government insists on this type of an approach , they are going it on their own. Rebate Indexing Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I have consistently over and over and over again asked a question in this House as to the position of this Government on tax rebates to low income families . The Blenkarn Report suggests they should be eliminated . We have asked this Governmen t for a commitment that should they at any time approve the GST, that GST would have to have its rebates fully indexed to low income Manitobans . Will they give that commitment today? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker , we have consistently said we do not want this tax, we will not support it.

I do not know how much more clearly it can be stated to the people of this province . The only one who is not listening is the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). Mrs. Carstairs: They do not believe them . They do not believe them because they give different messages . They give unclear, muddled messages with the Finance Minister saying one thing and the Premier of the province saying another. *

(1345) Government Position Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I have in my possession- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order , please . The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: I have in my possession 2,549 signatures from my constituency alone opposing the goods and services tax for Canada . Those residents, in letters to me, have consistently asked this Government to speak more clearly on the issue of GST.

Can the Deputy Premier tell the House today what [ strategies his Government has to clearly represent the views of Manitobans to Michael Wilson and his Tory cousins that this GST is absolutely unacceptable ? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the interest of clarity , let me repeat. We said we do not want this tax, we do not support this tax, and if the federal Government is going to bring it forward they will have to impose it. In the interest of clarity, I think the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) should also explain how it is she proposed another $700,000 worth of expenditures in this province when we were, for the first time in the last decade , starting to achieve something close to a balanced budget? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. 3240

Monday, November 27, 1989 Goods and Services Tax Corporate Tax Alternative Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speak er, we have the results in the Blenkarn Commission's report today about very, very ineffective opposition, in part, with this provincial Government in opposing this tax. I have a copy of the submission made to the Blenkarn Commission by this Government. It is weak, it is indecisive, and it does not provide for any viable alternatives to the propo sed GST.

We also have seen the Premier of this province present to the Prime Min ister some weak objections to the GST, but we did not see him fight the Prime Minister when the Prime Minister came back and said this would be good for Canada. We did not see a rebuttal from the Premier of the province on behalf of Manitobans the same way that Clyde Wells came back on Meech Lake. If that would have happened, maybe we would believe this Government is truly sincere about stopping this tax. My question is to the Deputy Premier of the province.

Will he now change the Government's position and endorse an alternative to the GST in our opposition to the GST and endor se a minimum corporate tax in this country? So that rather than houses being taxed, we can get the 93,000 corporations that made $27 billion worth of profits last year and did not pay one cent in taxes. We can get those people to pay, not people trying to buy a home in this province in terms of devastating our economy . Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the third Party (Mr. Doer) wants to talk about devastation to the economy .

Another five years of their type of Government, and we will become a Third World province. The Leader of both Opposition Parties were at the First Min isters' Conference. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Depu ty Speaker: Order , please. Ord er. The Honourable Deputy Premier. Mr. Cummings: Perhaps they do not really want to hear the answer. I suspect that what we have is a lot of posturing, Mr. Deputy Speaker .

If they would have listened carefully to the presentation that the Premier of this province made at the First Min isters' meeting, they would know clearly the position of this province with regard to the GST . They would know clearly that what this Go vernment is in favour of is fai r and reasonable taxation, not the kind of concentra ted rip off perpetuated by that Party. Mr. Doer: I not only listened but I heard the sound of silence when the Prime Min ister rebutted the Premier's economic proposal at the First Ministers' meeting. There was no response. We have collected over 35,000 signatures against this tax.

We have had nine public meetings, Mr. Deputy Speaker , and people do not want this unfair tax. They are talking about a minimum 3241 corporate tax and a fairer federal tax system rather than this gouge tax that Mulroney has proposed. * (1 350) Housing Impact Analysis Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Deputy Premier. Has he had an opp ortunity to an alyze the effect of this tax on the housing market in this province?

A housing market that has gone down since they have been in office, a housing mark et tha t is the only one of 20 major cities where the price of houses has gone down rather than up in this province, and the construction ind ustry which is down 5.8 percent in Manitoba as opposed to the rest of the count ry. Has he had an oppor tunity to evaluate the Blenkarn's brilliant solution to the housing problem that is levying taxes on the resale of houses and levying taxes on new housing starts in this province? How many thou sands of jobs will we lose, and how many consumers will be affected by that proposal? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker , apparently the NDP Opposition, in this House, supports higher housing costs for the people of this province. I am very sorry to hear that because one of the things that helps attract people to this province is reasonable housing costs as com pared to many of the other areas of this count ry. He asked if I had an opportunity to analyze the Blenkarn Report. I have not yet had the hard copy in my hands, but let me very clearly tell you anything that works against the ability of Manitobans to acquire reasonable cost housing in this province, I am opposed to. Mr.

Doer: The Mini ster does not realize you have to have housing before you can purchase housing. There were 7,000 less people working in this province in October than there was a year ago under so-called To ry good times. People know that To ry times are bad times, and they are starting to slowly find it out again in this province. Non-Profit Organizations Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question to the Deputy Premier is: the Blenka rn Commission -and it is something that has not been raised again by his own Minister of Finance in front of Don Blenkar n -i s recommending that non-p rofit organizations such as child care, such as all the many social welfare agencie s, the many non-p rofit organizations in this province get a 50 percent rebate of the GST costs.

My question to the Deputy Premier is: why did they not mention that issue of non-profit organizati ons in their brief to the Prime Minister and the federal task force on finances dealing with the GST? Will they now strongly object to the fact that non-p rofit organizations will only get half the money back in terms of the GST rather than (

a) stopping the tax total ly, (

b) replacing it with a minimum corporate tax, and (

c) eliminating all non-p rofit organizations from this tax?

Monday, November 27, 1989 Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speak er, as a Member of a Government, a former Government that did not have the foresight to deal with the problems of day care taxation, I am afraid that he is in a very poor position to press for taxation reform as it refers to those types of operations. We are very clear in the fact that we do not support this type of a tax. If you do not support that particular type of a tax, then why should one enter into the debates about the particulars of it? Opposition Documentation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Premier (Mr.

Filmon) promised to table in this Chamber the effect on the economy of this tax. It has been leaking out in other areas of the province. Will the Deputy Premier (

a) table the effect of this tax on our econo my, not just the good scenario that the Min ister of Finance gave to the media, but the negative scenario as well which does not even include the effect of interests rates? Secondly , will the Deputy Premier today table what they have sent to Ottawa to oppo se again a totally unb elievable proposal, particularly when it comes to housing that has been tabled in the House of Commons by the Finance comm ittee chaired by the To ry majority on that comm ittee? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): I said a moment ago that I had not yet received a hard copy of the recommendations from the Blenkarn report. I will take the specifics of what the Member raises as notice. We have a wide variety of impacts that we know the GST would have relationship to. Quite fran kly, I think that the position that we have taken, along with all of the other provinces in this country I might ind icate, we said very clearly to the Min ister of Finance, to the Prime Min ister, that this was an unfair, unreasonable approa ch to the correction of the fiscal problems of this countr y.

Go d kn ows, this countr y has tremendous fiscal problems, but we have stated that this is not the manner in which to correct them. *

(1355) Ken Podolsky MPIC Compensation Denial Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): My question is to the Min ister res ponsible for the Ma ni toba Public In sur ance Corporation (Mr. Cummings). The Min ister has kno wn for some time now about the tragic circu mstances surrounding a traffic collision near Moosehorn some 13 years ago. The accident involving a truck and a car left five people dead. As the Minister knows, the only survivor of the crash, the truckdr iver, was cleared of any and all wrongdoing by the RCMP. However, MPIC has denied Mr.

Ken Podolsky compensation and claims for injuries sustained in the accident on the basis of a confidential study cond ucted by Transport Canada. This report, a docume nt intended for purp ose of research into traffic safety only , has been wrongly used by the MPIC to deny Mr. Podolsky's legitima te claim. My question, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is: why has this Min ister ignored Mr. Podolsky's pleas for help? Why has he shown no concern for the individual who has been victim ized by MPIC, and why has he not done anything to correct the injustice such as ensuring tha t Mr.

Podolsky's claim is appr oved after 13 years of waiting? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): First of all, let me put something very clearly on the record. During the election campaign leading up to this Legislature, Liberal policy very clearly stated there must be no interference by Government in the day-to-day management of the corporation or in ind ividual cases. "The corporation must be free from political inte rference" was the pol icy statement of the Liberal Party as they ran for election to this House.

The Member knows full well that this case was dismissed from the courts not very long ago because it had gone through a very long period of ina ction. There had been nothing brought forward. He is trying to say that the corporation is somehow interfering with Mr. Podolsky's right to claim damages from the other parties. That is not the case, Mr. Deputy Speaker , and I think that the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) does a di sservice to himself and to Mr. Podolsky when he puts forward the accusation tha t someho w the corporation has interfered.

This report that he refers to as a confidential report, I suggest to him, could very easily have been acquired by simply writing to the authorities and asking for it. Mr. Rose: I would have expected better than that from a Government that is supposed to be caring and cares for the people. To the same Min ister, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister knows of this confidential report. He has known about it for some time and has indeed referenced to it in his correspondence with myself ind icating that it was the large part of the determination for cause.

Can he therefore explain why he would allow MPIC to ignore the findings of a police report, an RCMP report, and instead rely on the findings of a subsequent document, a confidential sanit ized research document, amounting to a study on traffic safety, a report that was never intended for MPIC's use? Why would he go along with MPIC? Why has he continued along on this instead of doing the right thing and defending the rights of Mr. Podolsky? Why has he become a slave to Autopac? Mr. Cummings: The day I become a slave to anybody will be a long way off, Mr. Deputy Spea ker.

The Member continues to refer to this as a secret document. He is wrong. The other thing that needs to be very clear is that MPIC has an obligation to all parties to make sure that it avails itself of all information relevant to the accident. It would be negligent of the corporation, quite frank ly, if they had not examined all of the information that was available to them. They have an obligation to the families of the people who were killed in this accident as well. 3242

Monday, November 27, 1989 I indicated some 10 days ago when I was first approached by the Member opposite that I would have senior management of the corporation review this. They were at that time in front of the Public Utilities Board. He also indicated that there were two routes which could be taken and the other one was to allow the present lawyer, I believe the sixth lawyer that this gentleman has now engaged, who is presently appealing the last court ruling.

I suggest that the Member take his own advice when last week on public radio he kept saying that I should not comment on this because it is going before the courts. He has ceased to take his own advice and perhaps now I will give him a little advice free. Mr. Rose: It is quite obvious from this questioning that th is is not the proper Minister to be in charge of this department. He says 10 days ago when he knows full well that it was 75 days ago when I approached him . He knows full well that it was only available now through access of information after 13 years and not available at the time of the inquiry .

Manitoba Public Insurance Corp. Accident Report Policy Mr. Deputy Speaker: Will the Honourable Member now put his question, please? *

(1400) Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): This Minister should inform himself, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and apologize. Is it the policy of this Government, I ask the Minister, the same Minister in charge of MPIC, that MPIC should obta in secret accident reports whenever possible, and at their own will, and rely on them instead of police reports to thwa rt the leg itimate claims of all Manitobans? An Honourable Member: That is a policy question , Glen . Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the ,dministration of The Manitoba Public Insurance .::orporation Act): One of the bright lights for the Liberal bench says this is a policy matter. Perhaps he should advise the backbencher from the Liberal Party as well that debating individual claims in this Legislature without just cause seems to me to be a real breach - Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker , if that Member suggests in some way -(interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order , please. Orde r. The Honourable Minister of Environment. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) should in some way suggest the fact that I took my entire file and presented it to him so he would be apprised of the same information I have, if he somehow implies that constitutes a cover up on my part, then I would suggest that he is severely mistaken . We have spent considerable amount of time with this file. The Member also charged that I did not respond to Mr. Podolsky 's request when he brought it to my office .

I can tell you that the manner in which he brought that request to my office, some 13 years after the accident, caused some considerable grief for my staff considering the manner in which he approached them. He neither wrote them , nor called me, but made one phone call, which that Member took considerable umbrage at the fact that my secretary had some concern about the type of call I received. I will go to the wall for someone that I feel has been done wrong, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have not seen proof of that here . Ken Podolsky MPIC Compensation Denial Mr. Bob Rose (St.

Vital): Let us make the record very clear.- (interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is a new question to the same Minister . Let us make it completely clear to the Minister, to this House and to the people of Manitoba -(interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order, please . I must inform the Honourable Member that he has had one question and two supplementaries . POINT OF ORDER Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Osborne . Mr. Alcock: On a point of order, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Member clearly stated this was a new question . He was standing on a new question. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Honourable Member has been recognized for a total of three questions . I suggest that is enough. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the same point of order. It is not up to the Government House Leader to determine who asks what questions on this side of the House. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, we seem to be having a little bit of confusion here .

I do not believe the Member indicated, at the beginning of his question, that it was a second question . In his later comments he did indicate that. I do believe he is in order in giving a brief

preamble on what would be a different question. I would suggest that rather than going back and forth on the debate that we allow the Member to proceed, not waste Question Period time with any further points of order. 3243 a C

Monday, November 27, 1989 Mr. McCrae : Mr. Deputy Speaker , I could not agre e more with the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) when he said it is not my role as Governm ent House Leader to decide who should be asking question s and who should not . I just think it is interesting that the Honourable Opposition House Leader would be questioning your initial ruling that the Honourable Member for St. Vital is finished. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have been advised that the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) can, in fact, have another question and two more supplementaries .

I would recognize him if he so wishes . Mr. Rose: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . I have a new question to the same Minister. I am pleased that this Minister of MPIC has put his foot in his mouth by admitting a call from a person who has been suppressed in this prov ince. His department and he did absolutely nothing on the same day. On June 29, this gentleman spoke directly to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) and got the same sort of treatment. In my

preamble let me say that it is the policy of this Government-and when we would become Government-not to interfere with the rates of Autopac, unlike the NOP. So do not misunderstand our position, and that is we still believe that Government should manage their Crowns. Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me say this - Mr. Deputy Speaker: Would the Honourable Member now put his question please? -(interjection)- Order , please. Order. The Honourable Member for St. Vital, would he please put his question now. Mr.

Rose: My question is: given that this confidential report's author is outraged that MPIC would use this report to frustrate Mr. Podolsky, and given that he has called the report-the author of this report-called it baseless and worthless, why does the Minister see fit to support MPIC's position against Mr. Podolsky? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to put on the record the fact that the confidentiality aspect of this report was referred to the Chief of Accident Investigations for Transport Canada, and he confirmed in his view that these reports are public information and are freely available to anyone who wishes to obtain copies. According to Mr. Clark, the reports are not prepared specifically for court use, but there is no reason that anyone cannot obtain a copy. I would refer the Honourable Member to the fact that I believe I have gone a long way toward providing him with information to make sure Mr.

Podolsky 's situation was clarified, inasmuch as was within my capability during the time frame that he suggested I should respond. If he take umbrage at that, I think he should also consider the fact that the matter is presently going before the courts as an appeal. I would suggest, if that is the case , perhaps public debate of the specifics of that appeal is probably not appropriate. Manitoba Public Insurance Corp. Investigation Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question to the same Minister is: how can it get before the courts when Autopac refused to give documents he is entitled to?

Is this Minister now in a position to complete a thorough investigation of MPIC, their misuse of this report which has been the source of anguish and pain to Mr. Podolsky for so many years? Is he now going to institute a complete investigation of the matter? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): The request to go before the courts for an appeal of the original decision in no way means that the Corporation has not co-operated over the years in preparing to deal with the matter for Examination of Discovery.

They are still quite prepared to continue with that and co-operate under the venue of the court if and when this case is opened again. *

(1410) Northern Tax Allowance First Ministers' Conference Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the outrage of Northerners is growing over the pending cutback of the Northern Tax Allowance that would affect close to 90 percent of the northern communities that are currently receiving it in Manitoba and a similar number throughout the country. In fact, just a few days ago there was a meeting in Thompson with more than 250 residents who were mad as hell at the insensitivity -(interjection)- I use that term, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because that is exactly the way Northerners feel about this.

It is the same as the response in Flin Flon and The Pas. People are amazed to learn that this so-called task force that was appointed by the federal Government basically had its mind made up from the start. The commissioner who came up indicated he was opposed to the Northern Tax Allowance more than 18 months ago when he started the report. My question to the Deputy Premier is: what has the provincial Government done to ask for this task force recommendation to be rejected?

In particular, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier why this issue was not raised in the more than 21-page document that was issued as notes for the opening statement at the First Ministers' Conference just a couple of weeks ago? Is this not an important enough issue for the First Minister of the province (Mr. Filmon) to be raising this directly with the Prime Minister? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me first of all compliment you in your very capable way of handling Question Period today.

Let me say that not only is this Government opposed to the removal of the tax benefit and northern allowances, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have in fact put that opposition forward not only as a province but co- 3244

Monday, November 27, 1989 operatively with all the other Northern Affairs Min isters who joined together in a meeting some week and a half ago to express very vehemently our opposition to any change. It will be as well on the agenda of Min isters of Finance in Ottawa the 1s t of December. I say that we cannot afford to have those people lose that benefit as we want to encou rage more people professionally and otherwise in the northern communities to provide the most essential services. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Deputy Speak er, with all due respect, I am asking why this has not been raised between First Ministers, because it is a very important -no disrespect to the Northern Affairs Minister (Mr. Downey). Northern Tax Allowance Prime Minister Discussion Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to ask again to the Deputy Premier, will the Deputy Premier unde rtake to have this issue raised directly with the ' Prime Min ister because of the fact that this task force is nothing more than a farce and a fraud? Will he raise it directly with the Prime Mini ster and have that task force recommendation thrown out? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I can reaffirm the concerns of the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). I want to tell you that they need not worry about the vehemence of this Government, and the concerned relationship to this issue. I would sugge st that the- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order , please. Order . The Honourable Min ister. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker , I would suggest that on the 7th of December when the Finance Ministers convene tha t there will be very serious di scussion regarding this matter. Removal Impact Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final supplementary is to the Deputy Premier as well. Will the Deputy Premier unde rtake on behalf of this Go vernment to provide full information on the impact of these major cuts to the grass roots movement that is growing in northern Manitoba to mount a nationwide camp aig n agains t this absolutely un acceptable treatment of our northern communities? Will they provide that information to the communities affected? Hon. James Downey (Min ister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I can assure him that any available information that is currently in the possession of Governments will be made available to the federal Government. As well, it is planned to further enhance the case of the pro vinces by jointly working together to make the case even more strongly in opposition to this removal of the tax benefit. 3245 Triman Industries Ltd. Closure Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Deputy Speaker, during the free trade negotiations, the parlia mentary library in Ottawa identified the wood products industry in Canada as an indus try that would be hurt by the Free Trade Agreement.

Not only would this ind ustry suffer a trade deficit with the U.S., but the report stated there would be an anticipated 12 percent decrease in employment. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker , their predictions appear to be true. There has been a 29 percent incr ease of U.S.-made furniture coming into Canada, and 50 people have recently lost their jobs in Morden. My question is to the Rural Development Minister (Mr. Penner). The adminis trative managers said that a few people from Government had said that there might be some Government help coming to them but nothing happened.

What assistance was discussed with Triman Ind ustries, and what were the results of these discussions? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the loss and the closure of the ind ustry in Morden is certainly something that is of concern to me as well as most people in rural Manitoba. As you know, the lumber ind ustry, the pulp ind ustry, has faced a dr amatic turn around in its financial situation. There is, however, also a similar type of an economic impact that has been incurred, not only in this country but in many other countries as far as the lumber ind ustry is concerned.

Therefore, the impacts that are currently being felt by the indus try in areas such as the furniture ind ustry are somewhat detrimental to employment. However, the largest impact that has occurred and that is curr ently being felt by manuf acturers such as the Morden firm are simply because of the economic downturn in many parts of rural Manitoba due to the drought that was experienced in that part of the provi nce, due to in large part, the other economic downturns tha t have been incu rred by the farming and communiti es dependent on the agricultural economy .

Therefore, it is important to note that when smaller communities face economic hardships that are currently being felt by such firms as Triman, we do everything in our power to discuss the possibilities of retaining those ind ustries as well as others during this period of time. Rural Economic Development Strategy Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is evident that the Min ister is not even sure that the sales have gone up with this indus try and this company as reported certainly in the paper.

If he would have read it over, he might be a little more familiar with that indus try.- (in terjection)- Well, the Free Trade Agreement, Mr. Deputy Speak er, and the actions of the federal Government continue to

Monday, November 27, 1989 ravage bot h urban and rural Manitoba. We see this Government is prepared to stand by and watch. My supplementary question to the same Minister is: how much longer must Manitobans wait for a rural economic development strategy because it was evident from the Minister 's comments in Estimates that no plan is in place right now. How long have we to wait? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is evident that the Liberal Party does not read the newspapers very well , nor do they pay much attention to what their own Leader said in Brandon during the UMM Convention. I want to say that we did in fact move rather expeditiously on decentralization in this province, maybe much too quickly and much too soon because the Liberal Leader (Mrs. Carstairs)- Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, on a point of order? Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : No, a question . Mr. Deputy Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. •

(1420) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I wonder if I may have leave- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order , please . Mr. Downey: -to make a non-political statement. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. Mr. Downey: I would ask the Members of the House to join with me today in congratulating the Saskatchewan Roughriders in winning the Grey Cup yesterday.

As a Member representing southwest Manitoba bordering on Saskatchewan , I have many friends and relatives just across the border who I am sure are extremely pleased today as we are in the victory for the western Canadian team, Mr. Deputy Speaker . I thank Members for providing me leave to extend those wishes to the Saskatchewan Roughriders and look forward to the Grey Cup when it comes to Winnipeg. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): May I have leave for a non-political statement? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave-t he Honourable Member for Fort Garry . Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to join with the Membe P from the other side in extending our congratulations to the Saskatchewan Roughriders . As an ex-Saskatchewanite, I feel I have waited many years for that opportunity and was pleased that they were able to provide one of the most exciting games that we have seen for years . It is my hope that we will not have to wait as long again to see Saskatchewan in that particular position . Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): May I have leave to make a non-politica l announcement? Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave-the Honourable Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to also add our words of congratulations to the Saskat chew an Roughr iders. I am sure this announcement is going to be going directly to the Saskatchewan Roughri ders, and of course all of us would want to be a part of it. I only hope that the Premier was cheering for the West at the Grey Cup Game and not of course, since Winnipeg is now in the eastern division, pulling for the East.

I think we should have that clarified by the Deputy Premier just to ensure that we are all on the same side here. I would like to think that the Saskatchewan Roughriders have waited some 23 years for this Grey Cup, and I was very pleased to see them in the Grey Cup and win it for the West . Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I am sure we all supp orted them, Mr. Deputy Speaker . HANSARD REPRINT REQUEST Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): I have a Hansard correction to make . I would just like to draw your attention to Friday's Hansard, November 24. Right after the Orders of the Day there seems to be a major error .

It is not simply the correction of a word or two, but there is a whole

section inserted in the Hansard that appears to be from a committee meeting and perhaps should be reviewed and a new Hansard published . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health ; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Environment. • (1430) 3246

Monday, November 27, 1989 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): I call this Committee of Supply to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health . When we last met, the committee had been considering item 6., Manitoba Health Services Commission, Administration $19,990 ,800-the Member _for Wolseley. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Chairperson, I have questions that do relate to the Health Services Commission.

It is not specifically to the Administration , and I would ask the indulgence of the committee in that I am in Environment Estimates myself and I have slipped out for about 15 minutes so that I might ask the Minister some pertinent questions that relate to my own riding . Mr. Chairman: We have been addressing these Estimates line by line. Is there leave to deviate from that? The Honourable Minister. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Chairman, we have been going line by line and if the staff are not here who can provide us with the detailed answers, we may not be able to answer the question.

That is the only caution that I give to my honourable friend . Mr. Chairman: Is there leave to do so? The Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson, I have questions on the Health Commission capital budget that relate to two facilities within my own riding, the first one being Klinic. As the Minister is well aware, I have been concerned for some time that this organization be properly housed and in fact talked to him on a number of occasions , both on the grounds of the facility at a cer tain very cold winter public meeting and again a number of times in the House.

Now we had an interesting announcement not very long ago that there would be the conversion of what was originally the CMHC offices at the southwest corner of Home and Portage Avenue, which is now a two store y vacant office building and that may very well serve the organization imminently. The specific concern I have there is the time frames that were announced, given my experience in conver sion of buildin gs, et cetera, from one very different purpose to another.

As we are talking really only six months or so, does the Minister feel that the time line of the 1st of Jun e 1990, can be met and that it is a realistic projection? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that as of last week they were looking at May 1 as a potential day. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson, music to my ears. I am very pleased to hear that optimistic position.

One of the big concerns that has been from both businesses and institutional activities in the Wolseley area has been the fact that we have a neighbourhood , rather shallow geographically speaking, squashed between the Assiniboine River and Portage Avenue and when there has been large-scale commercial or institutional activities along the Portage Avenue strip, there has been at times very severe impact from a parking viewpoint.

What I would look to is the Minister to make a statement, and I assume the building was purchased and not leased, and in so doing , did they also acquire permanent rights to the parking lot south of the Portage Avenue lane? Mr. Orchard: That is my understanding, that the parking was part of the package . Mr. Taylor: So there will be ownership of both the building and the parking lot, which means the parking lot will be there . Mr. Orchard: My understanding is that the parking lot is under a lease agreement for 15 years and the building is purchased. Mr. Taylor: All right. Mr.

Chairperson, the parking is how should I say it-something that is a cause celibre in the Wolseley area now and has been for some 20- odd years . What sort of an undertaking, and I leave this open-ended deliberately , would the Minister be prepared to make on behalf of the Health Services Commission in the having of a permanent parking solution? Are they prepared to look at a longer term lease, are you prepared to look at first right-of-refusal on the property or what sort of mechanism would the Minister be prepared to put on the table to look at assuring a permanent parking solution? Mr.

Orchard: Well, yes, certainly, that is why we have secured this for 15 years because we recognize that parking is an issue, but bear in mind that is, well, close to the length of time that Klinic has been in existence to date , and we have secured almost the next lifetime, if you will, of Klinic complete with-how many small stalls?-27 stalls . It is a substantial improvement over the current facility in terms of parking spaces.

Of course, that is what made the option to proceed at the Portage Avenue location as attractive as anything , was that not only did we save a fairly substantial amount of money but we were able to offer more space in two regards. *

(1440) First, in the absolute area , was more than what the original new construction plan had envisioned, and second, the parking was significantly larger than what the new facility on the location would have been proposed. As well , we are taking a look at yet another piece of property that we may attach to assure secured parking in the longer term as well. Mr. Taylor: Yes, the Minister is quite correct in saying that this building does answer the needs, not only much 3247

Monday, November 27, 1989 more so than the present facil ity, but maybe even goes a little beyond that and offers, what I have heard from staff, a capability for expansion while within existing walls. I think, in securing a facility of that nature, I think that is a very positive step and I am quite prepared to put that into the record. It looks like there will be a long life on that site. My worry is, is that on a lease basis?

There is no assurance and if the request would be, not necessarily to purch ase at this time, but if the Min ister would un dertake for there to be a first right-of-refusal option available to the Government at small cost, that would then at least give a trip wire to the situation, is that if at the end of the lease or, and the.re may be provisions of the lease for sale during the term, and that is not uncommon in commercial leases, you could end up being without parking space. Mr.

Orchard: I accept my honourable friend's cautions on this because it was one of the strengths of the location to go there and it is built in for 15 years and anything we can do to enhance that economic ally, certainly is being investigated. As I said, we are looking at yet another piece of property that can be made avai lable for parking adjacent or jux taposed to, so th at I accept my honourable friend's cautions. They are valid cautions. Mr. Taylor: The Mini ster has made reference about some potential additional pa rking tha t might be available.

Could I ask the Mini ster if that property today is commercial property or if it is residential? Mr. Orchard: Staff is indi cating that they think it is residential. Mr.

Taylor: I would ask the Min ister then to request his staff, when entering into any potential negotiations for the acquisition of residential land in that area and its conversion to commercial, in particular parking, to deal with the local councillor and to deal with the local Residents Association, which is a long-standing multi in terest group called the Wolseley Reside nts Association, because there is a pol icy in the area that they do not wish any further parking lots, any new ones, in other words, south of the lane, south of Portage Avenue and that policy has been there for 12 years.

While the goal may be commendable, I am putting it out as a cautionary note, a warning if you will, do your front-end public relations work before you get into the acquisitions and approvals. I put that on the record hoping things will move smoothly ahead. Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend's advice is well noted and we did not arrive at our decision at 870 Portage lightly. We had substantial discussions to make sure that it fit a number of agendas. We likewise intend to do the same in any thing we do which might enhance the parking capacity. Mr. Taylor: I appreciate the Minister's candour and co-operation.

It is very good. I would like to ask a question that does relate to the Klinic operation, but not Klinic itself. Land was acquired some time ago and I was originally a party to this. This was the land on Sherbrook Street and I was involved in helping secure approvals for Klinic at what was then the proposed site on Sherbrook. My question is, has the Health Services Commission made a determination of what to do with the large commercial site on the east side of Sherbrook between Broadway and Portage and the smaller, what is largely residential site right behind it on Furby Street? Mr.

Orchard: We have not made any decision, but my ho nourable friend is striking upon yet anothe r advantage of this current arrangement of 870 Portage because we own and have acquired that land at the commission level and there are- needless to say, we cannot envision plans for redevelopment. We may well consider the sale of tha t land so that we can free up the capital dollars for use elsewhere in the system. No decision has been made in that regard to date though. Mr. Taylor: I am not at all surprised by that answer.

That is just about what I thought might happen, has yet to be determined and may be revenue generation to the commission.

I would ask that the commission, through the Min ister, when it determines that it wishes to use it for public purpose or if it determines it wishes to turn it over to sale and has a specific buyer in mind and therefore a specific function, if it would again involve the local councillor and the two residents associations that are involved, then the West Broadway Residents Association, whose boundary is just within and it is on the boundary of the Wolseley Residents Association, in aid of there being a public, if you will, residents' input to the final determination of what might happen to that land? Mr.

Orchard: We have I believe all of the approvals in place to put in a community clinic.

I believe all of those steps have been taken in consultation with the community commi ttee and the local council, not only that but I mean receiving the approval of, is it Works and Operations with the City of Winnipeg, so that any decision to sell will, of necessity, have to be going through a compliance with what we have that property zoned for right now or we would not be able to-and I am only using this as an example because I do not know what the capabilities are, but we probably could not sell it knowingly to a buyer who was going to throw up a 30-storey whatever, if it did not meet with the zonings and the compliance with the city by-laws.

Certainly that would be a prohibition on sale. It is zoned for rather specific uses right now and any purcha ser would be cognizant of that fact. Mr. Taylor: Yes, if I might, Mr. Chairperson, just for the Minister's information, there are variances that were gained on that site specifically for a clinic, but the actual zoning is a commercial zoning, a C-2 if I recall. The C-2 zoning is one of the more common commercial zonings in the city and does permit a myriad of uses.

If it were C-1 tha t is another story, but C-2 means it is not a local commercial, it is a general commercial and because of that there are certain businesses that are more desirable than others. For example, an office 3248

Monday, November 27, 1989 building would probably be more desirable than a car dealership, just as an example. So if the commission has in mind the sale, first of all, but secondly a sale to a specific buyer as opposed to putting it on the general market, all I was suggesting is that it could be advantageous to smoothing the way for the fina l purchase and the final appr ovals of whatever should come on the site and therefore hasten the sale. *

(1450) So I threw that out to the Min ister in the sense of try ing to grease the skids, if you will, because I know sometimes these things can get caught up in local community politics,

whereas if they are front-ended and there is dealing with the local community and the local representat ives beforehand usually it will go through faster and usually with the support of the local people. I put that out in that the local neighbourhood is quite politici zed toward this type of thing. Mr. Orchard: Again, Mr. Chairman, fair advice. There is a rather fixed proced ure for dispo sal of any Government prope rty.

First of all, a circulation through Government Services to ensure no one else within the service of Government has a need, Crown corporations, and then if decision is to dispose, sale and compliance with zoning, et cetera, et cetera. So I accept my honourable friend's advice, because he is providing us with an opportunity to avoid potential difficulties. Mr. Taylor: On another matter entirely, I would like to talk abou t the multiyear expansion plans for the Misericordia Hospital.

I personally have been involved as the councillor originally for Memorial Ward who helped put in place a public participation exercise for that project. I was instrumental in there being a traffic study for impacts from the relocated entranceway to the hospital and the new parking structure which now exists on the east side of Sherbrook. This project is very, very important to the whole west end of the city and in fact to the River Heights area. There has been, as the Min ister is probably well aware, a worry that the Misery would not get a high enough priority, would get any prior ity.

In fact, there is the unfortunate track record that there was a proposal to actually take down that hospital, pull it out of service some years back, under the former Lyon administration. In the announcement that came out from the Health Services Commission, there was in one announcement I saw no mention of a Misericordia but in a second one I saw there was an actual listing of what I thought was to be the program for this year, and it talks about new di etetic s and storage area as part of the redevelopment plan and it has a gross number of $5 million.

I am aware of some of the detail of that project, and I was glad to see that in there. My question then is, to confirm through the Min ister himself, that the multiyear redevel opment plan of the Misericordia Hospital is in no way in question, that it is still on the books even though we have not had as many announcements about the "M isery" as we may have had about certain other facilities. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, in that first news bulletin there was so much good news they could not put all the good news in it and through oversight Misericordia's project of course was not part of the first news story .

Had I had the opportunity to explain the capital program on more relaxed circumstances, not meeting an eleven o'clock deadline Monday night after we left commi ttee at 10, Misericorda would have been part of that but that was the part of the redevelopment for which architectural design was comp leted and could be fit into this year's construction project. I just want to refer my honourable friend to

Schedule Ill, Projects Approved for Architectural Planning. The major redevelopment, which is in the $30-plus million range, is found as the second-last item, and that is ongoing in terms of architectural plans which are not completed. The three major redevelopments that we announced at Grace, Health Scie nces Centre and St. Boniface-the plans were compl ete so we could put them to tend er. I know the habit has been, in the past, to put a lot of projects into construction, when there is no intent of ever proceeding with the sort of-I suppo se make everybody happy and be more things to more people.

I made a commitment in the last two capital budgets I tabled, that only those we expect to be able to put to tender within the next 12 months are going to be in the Approved for Construction. So when they are on this list it is not to make anybody feel good and feel happy that they are in the capital budget, it is because we intend to unde rtake them. We simply were not able to do that at Misericordia on the larger redevel opment phase, we were in terms of the die tetics and the stores area-a very essential area of the hospital. It is a very crowded area, I have been down in there.

It is a very constrained area of operation of the hospital. Those plans were ready to go, so that achieved capital appr oval this year . We should have tenders out, depending on the phasing and whatnot, within the next number of months. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I appreci ate that answer from the Min ister. He can imagine my concern when last year I did not see any major capital do llars.

It was basically the architectural dollars that ended up will be leading to this $5 million, or roughly $5 million capital, plus a little bit of clean up for the last tail off of construction of an earlier phase, and then not to have seen that first announc ement in the newspaper, and my gosh, what is happening to Mis ericordia Hospital. I understand the make-up of the $5 million, actually the architectural mon ey, is included in that.

Is that correct, and that the actual doll ars of capital construction will be a little under the five, say four and a half and some hundred thousands in the actual architectural final design? Is that the way it is going to break out? Mr. Orchard: Yes, there is always a danger in putting rough figures in terms of project costs in place. There is the concern exp ressed by members of the commission that becomes a target for the competitiv e 3249

Monday, November 27, 1989 bid process, although, we have had ball-park figures float around before, and the construction ind ustry of late has been very, very com petitive. If we could get a $4 million bid, we would take that. Mr. Taylor: The important

part is to say there are two elements within that mone y. I do not need the exact breakdown. I have a fairly good idea of what it is. I want to make certain that the long-term final phase architectural planning is included in that. Tha t is all I am looking for. Mr. Orchard: In the $5 million? Mr. Taylor: Yes. Mr. Orchard: No. The long-term architectural planning is budg eted for under

Schedule Ill. Mr. Taylor: Okay. So that

Schedule Ill, that I was shown, which does not have a mone tary figure beside it, is a separa te budgeting item. That money then is-we are going to be looking at final design in this fiscal year for the last phases of the hospital, or are you saying we are committed to it and it will progress over a num ber of years? Mr. Orchard: The inclusion in

Schedule Ill indi cates tha t the architectural design is approved for the reconstruction phas es involved there, and if that is achieved within 12 months and plans are developed in 12 months, then the money flows in 12 months. If it happens to take, because of glitzes or delays, 15 -18 months the approval is there to pay for it as completed. * {1600) Mr. Taylor: I un derstand what the Min ister is saying. If the final design work straddles more than one fiscal year that is not a problem, the dollars are assured. All right, that leads to the-I see the Minis ter nodding his head-that leads to the next question.

When I got in volved in this thing, in the whole expansion in revam ping that hospital, must have been back in'8 4- 85, and in any case, what happened was that the board of the hospital was looking at a five, maybe six-year process to do the whole thing. I am talking about actual years of construction, not the front-end plannin g of the hospital end before the commission was involved.

Then it became seven and now we have been talking nine, and I remember a sod turning in '86, so my question to the Min ister is, where we are at toda y, how many additional years are we looking at until the whole project is completed, as now contemplated without any add ons? Mr. Orchard: There are two things that are going to impact on it, but let me deal with the architectural planning aspect of it first. You are not going to commit anything to construction until you have the plans so you can get a handle on estimate construction cost, et cetera. As listed in

Schedule Ill, it could be up to 18 months for completion of that and it is after that, that one could presumably include Misericordia, tha t redevel opment in the Capital Program. Now again, I think that is a decision that can be made, but of course it is dependant upon what the overall priorities in the system are. But it can be made as soon as the plans are made and the second criterion, which will impact on whether the decision can be made, is the phase that was announc ed in this capital budget for construction, has to be comple ted before you can commence with the second stage.

Tho se two factors will mit igate against when construction can begin and then once construction is in that last pha se, you are probably looking at a two year construction program because that is a major commitment of reconstruction. Mr. Taylor: My understanding is that the monies set aside for the new di etetic stores receiving area, et cetera, it is con tem pla ted prob ably a yea r's construction, and your official can prob ably contemplate it, but that is what I had heard through the hospital, about a year or so.

The hope would be that that work would be done while the last of the design work is going on and the design work may exceed by a little bit, the construc tion. The Min ister is quite right in pointing out the need of following one phase after anoth er, because it is a very complex refurbishing and improvement tha t is going on. You have to keep the facility operating at the same time, and having been involved with projects virtua lly as complex as this over the years in my former life, I am well aware that is not always easy to achieve.

On an optimistic note then, we could look at something in the four- to five-year range to being complete. Would tha t be a fair assessment? Mr.

Orchard: Yes, on the two pha ses we are talking about, but then apparently there are further renovations after that, that may well-but for those two pha ses tha t we have been discussing this aftern oon, four to five years would be a reasonable- because it appears as if construction announc ed last week and architectural planning have about the same time frame so that they can be close to complete at the same time, tha t given availability of resource, would allow Government then to commit construction about 18 months out it would appear. Mr. Taylor: Mr.

Chairperson, the originals plans for the redevelopment of the Misericordia Hospital counted on, if I recall, about nine distinct pha ses over seven year s. I ma y not be exactly on, but tha t is my recollect ion. Now that was for a complete refurbishing of the hospital, bringing all elements that were very old and not standard up to standards. It involved little true exp ansion, but it meant a facility tha t was functioning better, that was accessed better, tha t had its parking solved and had its own new physical plant over on the east side and con nected by an overhead crossover.

The plans as they were laid out, for example-and I think the same officials might have been there in the 1986 sod turning which was the sod turning for the 3250

Monday, November 27, 1989 initial phase-the physical plant. When would we likely see all those phases as they were contemplated then, and I am not talking abou t anything that might have been added on subsequently , can we could pick a target year that is reasonable? Mr. Orchard: Apparently there were seven phases , three of which have been completed, there are four to go, one of them, of course, announced . Probably the fastest they could be done would be six years and of course that-again , not that I am throwing cold water on the prospects of the hospital.

Any construction that moves to construction or any project as it moves to construction requires a pretty substantial commitment and that of course is made dependent on other requirements in the system and availability of operating funds two years down the road . Yes, if everything went according to schedule, probably six years would complete that redevelopment. Mr. Taylor: My last question: within the Wolseley riding is the last standing part of the original Grace Hospital and it is between Arlington and Evanson, south of Preston Street. It was the most modern part and is the piece that is left.

The original hospital is gone . That building is today occupied, it was hospital space converted to offices. It is occupied by Community Services and Economic Security. My question is, does the Health Services Commission have any interest in using that building for health purposes? Has it contemplated anything along that line? Mr. Orchard: We have office space , and I cannot give you the number, but on Evanson Street. Mr. Taylor: Well, that is it. Mr. Orchard: We are in there. As far as I know some of the Men tal Health people are in there . I toured the place back 15 months , 18 months or 16 months ago .

We are part of the staff complement on Evanson Street. Mr. Taylor: Are there any plans to change the functions of that building as it now exists? Mr. Orchard: None that I am aware of. Mr. Taylor: The only question I have then is for the open space involved. That building had a substantial amount of space immediately north of it which was a parking lot followed by more land against Preston which was originally green space . In add ition , kitty-corner to it is a substantial parking lot also publicly owned by the province .

A few years back the green space that I ment ioned adja cent to the first parking lot was paved over and the par king increased substantially. In that there are virtually no housing lots available in ther e for either private or public housing , and at times it appears - and I am talking daytime now - tha t tho se parking lots when combined, the two of them tog ether, are grossly underutilized .

The question would be, in that a small piece of green space was taken from community use, because it was used as a little playing field for the local children, and turned into 3251 parking , and yet there seems to be a surplus of parking, has any contemplation been given to the turning back of that land to be put into housing? Mr. Orchard: No. My honourable friend is coming up with a rather interesting suggestion here .

It may be the policy of my colleague of Government Services of charging for parking has greatly reduced the demand so that maybe we can get back into some green space, but look I cannot answer my honourable friend here. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson, I put something on the table that is decidedly contemplative. It is not put there to trip up the Minister in any way, it is put forward strictly for consideration, planting a seed if you will with the officials .

If there can be a review done of those two pieces of land , if the now enlarged parking lot against the old hospital is sufficient, then possibly the land to the northwest across the corner of Evanson and Preston could be considered a turning over for housing. I would ask if that consideration could be given. Mr. Orchard: It is the right seed with the wrong people. The department would be the ones who occupy and part the building I think on that one, I am not certain but I think Government Services is the Government department most appropriate.

I will raise the issue with my honourable friend because I sit next to him in Question Period and some days we have to have something to talk about. *

(1510) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson, there are a number of issues I would like to raise under the Health Services Commission . I unfortunately will not be here tonight. I will be raising a number of these and I would appreciate-I realize the Minister is wanting to go strictly line by line-perhaps in some cases if the answers cannot be provided at this point in time that they be provided at a later date. I do think actually in discussions with my colleague the Member for Kildonan that we should be dealing with MHSC today in its entirety if at all possible.

Of course that will depend on the length of any questions and the length of any answers . I am just trying to give the Minister some indication of our intention . I have a number of issues I would like to raise in this very important area, one of the obviously most important areas in Government generally. We have had a considerable amount of discussion up to this point in time about the capital project and I will not be getting into any further questions on that, although I am sure those would be continuing questions.

One thing I think has been raised to some extent already has been the question of medical shortages particularly in terms of physicians. I just want to indicate and reference the fact that it is a major concern and we have spent a considerable period of time on that and I therefore will not be raising that at this point in time. One thing I would like to ask though and I have perhaps indicated my intention in this area before and that is in regard to the nursing situation in Manitoba. A lot of concern has been expressed by nurses about

Monday, November 27, 1989 working conditions, funding, and also the major turn over in terms of nurses. I kno w in my own local hospital, I was stunned to find out just recently that there has been a turnover of 50 percent in terms of nurs es in that particular facility-50 percent, Mr. Chairperson, and that is in a one-year period. That is because nurses are leaving the province, and nu rses are becoming burnt out and are leaving the profession. It is at all levels, people are going from full time to casual, and people who worked formerly part time or casual are no longer employed in the profession.

What I would like to ask the Min ister is, first of all, what is the current situation in terms of nursing in this province and, in particu lar, in what areas is there a shortage of nursing? I realize that it varies across specialty and I am wondering if the Minister will provide any information on the current nursing situation in Ma nitoba. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, some specialties are experiencing recruitment difficulties but in general there is reasonable recruitment success across the system. Mr.

Ashton: Is it perhaps that recruitment is a greater problem in rural and northern areas rather than across the system itself? I know that has been expressed, not only in my only hospital in Thompson, but in terms of contact with other northern hospitals. Thus far, the situation has become almost manageable. Those are the words that were used by the person I was talking to just recently . There is a real concern that the turnover rate is increasing even though there does not appear to be a shortage.

In fact, I am wondering if there is any information on the turnover rate, either from rural northern facilities or generally across the system. Mr. Orchard: In terms of the nursing staff tur nover, the facilities maintain those records for their information and we do not have them on file. Some of the specific disciplines, as I have said earl ier, are experiencing recruitment difficulties. Northern recruitment, from time to time, has been difficult although we have not been doing too badly there in comparison. I put this to my honourable friend in terms of relativ ity.

One always has to be cautious when doing that because it does not really matter whether you are better than everybody else if you are short of nurses; that does not answer the problem. Our recruitment chal lenges are much easier to resolve than some of the other provinces, even Ontario is having a much more severe problem th a11 we are. That, in part, in Manitoba, is because of I think our leadersh ip, national ly, in terms of our training program.

We have some very, very excellent nursing schools in the province that make our grad uate nurses highly sought after, not only across Canada but indeed from time to time by U.S. recruitment drives. It is that excellence in training program and the desire to maintain a level of excellence and importance in nursing in the Province of Manitoba that I think is maybe giving us a somewhat easier task in recruitment than other jurisdictions are currently facing. Mr. Ashton: I do feel there is going to be an increasing problem and I thought the recent report on nurse abuse pinpointed a signi ficant part of the problem.

This is something that has been expressed to me by many people, many nurses, many people in the field itself, and that is the growing level of stress facing front line nurses-it is leading to a large number of people leaving the profession alt ogether. I think there is also going to be a problem in terms of salaries. I know in talking to, once again, people in various different hospitals that we have lost a number of nurses, for example, to B.C. where wages are sign ificantly higher following the most recent contract and that is over and above the loss to the Uni ted States.

It has been a factor in the past and continues to be somewhat of a factor in terms of loss of particular nurses. What I would like to ask in that vein is what action the department will be taking in response to the report on nurse abuse. A report I thought was an excellent report that documented what anyone who has any knowledge in the health care system probably has already known for many years. The figures were stagger ing, as many as 50 percent or more of nu rses have faced some sort of verbal or indeed, physical abuse.

In fact, just this past week I talked to a num ber of nu rses at the Health Sciences Centre and some of the stories they had to tell about the physical violence they were subjected to by patients was incredible. I kno w one of the concerns in the case of the emergenc y facilities was that there are really no adequate facilities for detention of disturbed patients and dan gerous patients, and a significant portion of the emergency patient load is in that catego ry. I would like to ask what action the department will be taking with regard to the whole issue of nurse abuse. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, let us deal with several of my honourable friend's issues inclusive of nurse abuse. The outmigr ation of nurses from Manitoba that my honourable friend refers to, to B.C. and to the southern states -I was pleased to listen to CBC Radio at 6:30 one morning last week I believe it was; there was a recruitment fair that came into Manitoba. My honourable friend might have heard the news article.

The recruitment fair came in to fill vacancies and offer career opportunities out-of-province and into the U.S. and the organ izers of tha t recruitment fair were di sappointed in the turnout of Manitoba nurses who came to di scuss out-of-province opportunities. It was something like 170 nurses came through. I should order the transcript of the news report because it was a very positive one in my estimation because we keep talking about how bad things are and how there is stress and there is abuse. All of those issues are there, but the majority opinion from the nurses as expressed on that CBC Radio news

article by the reporter interviewing those nurses was that there was a fair degree of satisfac tion. They were there out of curio sity, and the level of follow-up from that recruitment fair was so low tha t the organ izers were, I believe, contemplating not coming back to Manitoba because they did not think the effort was worthwhile. They were unenthused as recruiters at the 3252

Monday, November 27, 1989 satisfaction they found in the nurses who came to the recruitment fair. * (15 20) I had the opportunity-and I should dig it up from my files and give it to my honourable friend -b ut there was a letter to the editor back about six or seven months ago that I recall from a Manitoba nurse who had taken up the opportunity of recruitment as offered by one of these recruitment fairs and ended up in Florida. She went down with the lure of sun and sand and surf and big dollars because that is what the recruitment effort made.

The salary package, if my memory serves me correctly , was almo st double what the hourly wage was in Manitoba, but the individual spent not quite a year down there and very soon returned to Winnipeg where we complain about the weather, where the salaries were lower, and where the surf is only good for July in Grand Beach, but we do have lots of sun.

The reason she came back is that, yes, the salaries were substantially higher, but there were no hours of work and she was on call virtually twenty-four hours a da y, and you show up or you do not have a job and you could get a call with as little as a half day's notice that you have to be there, and it may only be for a four hour shift and not an eight hour shift. Working conditions were certai nl y not as prom ised and envisioned. The upshot of the letter to the editor was, thank goodness for a stable system in Manitoba that one can plan a career and plan a little bit of a family life around.

She returned to Manitoba because the lure of the sun, the surf, the sand, and the dollar simply was not there. I think that is something that is not said often enough because we can, whether it is a bargaining tactic or whether it is a management tool or whatever, talk ou rselves into terribly adverse thoughts about how well it is that the opportunities are available in Manitoba, and in Canada for that matter .

I put those two things on the record for my honourable friend's knowledge because it was just last week that the trade fair found that their recruitment efforts may not be worth coming back to Manitoba in the future. There was not the interest in moving to the sun, the surf, and the sand. In terms of the nurse abuse report, we have met with MARN and they have raised a number of issues, some of which are already in process and some of which we will be investigating process. To do what is do-able is the way we left it today at the meeting. Mr.

Chairman, there are again some concerns that have been around a long time in terms of any legislated solution. Of course the definition of abuse is rather difficult to come by. Physical aspects, no- there is the opportunity for physically violent individuals who are unable to control their activities, there is a process by which ind ividuals can pursue charges if so abused. Some of the other aspects of the abuse as mentioned in the survey are more difficult to formulate into legislation. The legislated aspect of it is very much open to further discussion and investigation.

We believe there are some steps that admi nistration and the commission can assist and co-operate with 3253 MARN and the nursing profession in establishing protocols within management to support nu rses who have been subject to abuse, and inde ed to formal ize and have a more uniform system within facilities of handling complaints about abuse that surface from time to time. As I ind icated to my honourable friend those issues are very much ones which we have a desire to work with the professional association and nu rses in Manitoba to do what is do-able.

We are commencing that process in conjunction as I said with commission staff, Workplace Safety and Health representation, and the nursing profession. Mr. Ashton: I am glad to see there will be some action taken. I think there is a real burnout in the system tha t is only going to grow worse, and that is one of the major contributors.

What I would also like to ask the Min ister, and I am not suggesting the information is available at this point in time, but I would also like to ask the Min ister for some updated information in terms of nursing- patient ratios across the system and if he has a breakdown at individual hospitals. I know one of the concerns has been an incr eased acuity of care being provided in our hospitals. There is a very real feeling, particularly in some of our northern and rural hospitals, that the level of acuity is not reflected in the nursing -patient ratio.

That is also a concern in the city hospitals, as well, in terms of the general pressures. If the minister could provide that information, perhaps in written form, it would certainly be appreciated. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, the average of community hospitals paid a nursing-paid-hou rs-per-patient-day, I believe is the statistic, in'85 -86 was eight; in '86-87 was 8.3; in '87-88 was 8.5; and continues at 8.5 in '88- 89. Mr. Ashton: If there is any detailed information by hospital perhaps the Min ister could provide it. I am not suggesting we take the time of the commit tee at this point.

I have some other questions. Before leaving the question in terms of nursing, I would also just like to flag a concern in terms of the progress of pay equit y. I think that is going to be a very sign ificant factor in terms of the working relationship with nu rses in this province. I think it has been very important in terms of rectifying inequities in the wage system, and I am concerned about the apparent impasse currently in terms of the health care system in terms of pay equit y.

While there had appeared to be hope of an agreement between management and the staff involved, in this case dealing with a lot of nurses, there now seems to be something of a roadbl ock in the way of that proceed ing. I am quite concerned about that because I think that is an important issue. I reference nurses, but it is an important issue for the health care system because 84 percent of the health care work force is female, so the progress on pay equity is absolutely vital in this regard. The Min ister may have some comments. I am sure the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) has questions in this area.

I just wanted to identify that as a concern. Perhaps if the Member for Kildonan wishes to pursue

Monday, November 27, 1989 that further I am sure the Mini ster will have a statement on the Government's position, but I did not want to deal with that.

I wanted to move in terms of issues though into a couple of other areas, first of all in terms of the bed situation, what I guess in the field is called "situation block beds." I realize the Minister has ind icated that a number of decisions will be made by the Health Advisory Network which will impact on this, but I would like to ask the Minister specifically how many patients are currently in the system in hospitals awaiting personal care home replacements. * (15 30) Mr. Orchard: We will get that last piece of information for my honourable friend. Mr.

Chairman, on the issue of pay equity, The Pay Equity Act requires in the 23 facilities a 1 percent annua lized commitment to pay equity. That equates to $18 million in the 23 health care facilities that are identified in The Pay Equity Act which I believe was passed unanimously in the House four years ago. The Government has budge ted and set aside last year and has funds budge ted this year for the implementation of the pay equity, according to the Act, to the target of the $18 million. The first and a subsequent proposal on the table has involved the commitment of $24 million.

That is above the legislative requirement set as a target for those facilities, which all other groups who have complied with pay equity have been able to achieve. In the interests of pay equit y, we have made the decision and I am sure my honourable friend would concur that the legislation and the guidelines of the legislation ought to be follo wed. To exceed the guidelines for a group would in fact make a mockery of pay equity for those who have complied with the legislation and the 1 percent guideline.

They could rightfully come back to Government and say, well, we would like to renegotiate ours now that you have in fact used a 1. 4 percent figure to implement The Pay Equity Act and exceeded your own legislation. That would be a very nice thing to do, a very generous thing to do, but my honourable friend would not mod erate his daily requests for programs in northern Manitoba that cost mone y. My honourable friend would not moderate his requests for all other demands in the system that he thinks are appropriate.

Therefore, I and Government thought it prudent that when every other organization has implemented pay equity following the 1 percent guideline as legislated and I might remind my honourable friend that the legislation was posed by a Government of which he was a backbencher and I presume he supported that legislation, as did his 11 colleagues currently in the Ho use. I do not kno w of any in tention tha t my honourable friends had that the guideline would be 1 percent for some as the legislation stated, and more for others.

I think they put it down, the House passed it and accepted it as a guideline that would be used for the implementation of pay equit y, and that certainly is what we intend to do. As I have ind icated, we have money budgeted in this year's Estimates and we have retroactive funds budgeted and in place for payment when a decision and an agreement is reached. Mr. Chairman, we have 385 individuals panelled and awaiting placement in Winnipeg hospitals as of March 31, 1989. I believe we have got some other figures that are more current, but that is as of March 31, 1989. Mr.

Ashton: As I said I am sure the matter of pay equity will be discussed . I do not think we generally as a commi ttee have the time to really discuss it the length that we would like to. I do know that the whole question of whether the proposals were within the guidelines is in dispute. There have been a number of proposals in terms of settlement that have been made, the latest of which would be within the guidelines. I would like to stress again the importance in this area of attempting to reach a decision on this that will move pay equity forward.

I mean it is a very important sector, as I said, very important to women. In terms of the hospital bed situation, I would once again point to the impacts that this is having on the system, and this has been raised in the context of various capital decisions. It is something that is clogging the arteries of the health care system in the Province of Mani toba in terms of personal care homes, placements, in terms of the whole extended care question, which we raised in the context of the capital budget, and it is certainly an area that I think we in this commi ttee will be discussing next year.

Hopefully, there will be some improvements in the general area of rationalizing that system. Hopefully, we will have a Health Advisory Network report by then. I like to be optimistic on tha t and hopefully we will have some decisions made by the Min ister, because it is a major concern in terms of the hospital system. Moving to another area I just wanted to ask the Min ister, in terms of the Pharma care Program, what the status is in terms of the card proposal and in particular some mode lling along the line s of Saskatchewan, that has been one suggested model for it?

I would like to ask if there has been any progress on this. I do know that when the resolution came up in the Legislature, the Minister was somewhat skeptical about this particular proposal, but I do not believe he has ever rejected it. I would like to ask if there has been any further developments, and has the Mini ster made a decision not to proceed with the card. If not, when does he antici pate a decision on whether to proceed or not? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend, first of all let me just provide another piece of information in terms of the panelled patients occupying Winnipeg hospital beds. Yes, tha t is causing some difficulties, but there are a number of areas of opportunity inclusi ve of new personal care home beds to be opened in the near future, as well as commissioning of the 85 beds at Deer Lodge Hospital. There is a great deal of opportunity to relieve the system within the next number of months and tha t will be very beneficial given the 385 beds that are being occupied within the Winnip eg hospital system. 3254

Monday, November 27, 1989 I just want to indicate to my honourable friend that in 1985 there were 458 beds occupied by panelled patients in the Winnipeg hospitals, 455 in 1986 , of the same date and time. Now naturally they fluctuate up and down, but since 1986 there has been a steady decline in those numbers. My honourable friend might recall in 1985-86 there was, needless to say, substantially more concern about direction. That spurred some of the announcements that are currently outstanding on construction of extended treatment beds, et cetera, et cetera . Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend ought to caref ully read my remarks on the Pharmacard debate in Private Members' Hour. I did not indicate any apprehension about plastic card technol ogy and its utility in the Manitoba health care system . My honourable friend might recall that resolution was twofold: it was suggesting a plastic card type technology, but more importantly it was suggesting that seniors receive absolutely free drugs and that was a significant cost to the system, if my memory serves me correctly, upwards of $8 million to $9 million.

I posed then and I pose again to my honourable friend the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I believe whose Party proposed the resolution, if you have a spare $8 million to $9 million in the health care system, is it most effectively used providing absolutely free pharmaceuticals to sen ior citizens in the Province of Manitoba? In trying to come to a decision of that because I will tell you that our provincial Party's position is no, that is not the most effective use of $8 million or $9 million. *

(1540) The reason we say that is not that we do not want to assist senior citizens; ttiat is in no way affecting the decision. What is affecting the decision is attending conferences of Ministers of Health from across Canada who have those kinds of free programs and find that those free pharmaceutical programs are one of the most abusive programs on their seniors that there is. Seniors are, because they are free, receiving far too many prescription drugs, an issue that has been identified as a health issue across Canada . My honourable friend's proposal was twofold : plastic card technology, free pharmaceuticals.

The free pharmaceuticals aspect is not one that we con.cur with as a sound health policy for seniors in Manitoba, and I am willing to take my honourable friend's position if they were to do that into the election and argue very effectively that would not be the best place to put $8 million of new resource to assist seniors in Manitoba, there are far more effective places we can use that $8 million.

So when my honourable friend says I had some appr ehension-the apprehension on the plas tic card technology was because of its countering proposal, to make pharmaceuticals free to senior citizens , that is where I am extremely apprehensive because I do not bel ieve it would increase the health status of seniors in Manitoba. In fact every indication , and every piece of advice we get from other jurisdictions, is that it has 3255 exactly the opposite as an effect on health status among seniors.

Second, in terms of the plastic health card technology , we established a working group in January of this year and they have undertaken some discussions with Saskatchewan to find out what was good , bad or what would be changed, in terms of the implementation program of their program . We are in discussion as to how we might implement the program in Manitoba , but there are a number of steps that we are going through prior to making that kind of a decision. First and foremost of course is what will be the cost of implementation of that system.

Once establishing the cost we want to have some assurance that the increased efficiency that the plastic card technology can have in the system is in fact achieved and realized because all too often we brought in new technologies: which supposedly were to, quote: save the system money, and we have never achieved those savings . We have merely had a simple add on and cost to the system , which is driving the costs up. If it continues, it will deny individual service in health care down the road .

So costs first, benefits second , and in that regard early next year the province is hosting a Plastic Card Technology Conference in Manitoba, where we will have access to actually the very state of the art systems in Manitoba, which we believe will be most instrumental and most helpful in achieving us to come to the decision making path that we are currently working on. Mr. Ashton: In terms of panelled patients, I am just wondering if the Minister could indicate the breakdown between those in the community waiting for personal care home placement and those in hospitals .

The Minister is quite correct that from 1985 on there was a major drop, particularly in the community in terms of the number of patients awaiting a placement. I would just like to ask the latest informa tion that there is. Mr. Orchard: As of March 31 again, and those are the numbers I will give to my honourable friend, there were 1,234 individuals panelled for and awaiting placement in personal care homes.

That is up slightly from the same time in 1988 , where it was 1,185, but, 1988 was a culmination of five years of success ive declines in the number of panelled patients. _ For instance, and all of these figures are point in time numbers as of March 31 in each year, in 1984 the number was 1,690 in the province; 1985, 1,670; 1986, 1,510; 1987, 1,336; and a low in 1988 of 1,185; and then up slightly again in 1989. I say to my honourable friend that this is what is indeed of interest to us because the criterion for placement in personal care homes has remained consistent throughout that five-year time span .

The sar:ne panels, the same make-up, the same process, 1s involved, not the same individuals , because each panelling group is made up of course of different individuals. The criterion they use has remained the same . The decline-there are two schools of thought and this is important to planning capital decisions . There are two

Monday, November 27, 1989 schools of thought in the personal care home field, one being that we need to build substantially more beds to relieve all of the pressures, and that is a school of thoug ht held by a number of individuals. The second school of thought, and I have to admit it is a minority school of thought by professionals who are involved in the system, is that they are saying , no, we have modest additional requirements for personal care home beds, but there are several mitigating factors at work in the system.

First of all is demographics and when they will peak and how our bed supply will be able to handle them.

Second is that other programs , other than personal care homes, appear to be having a positive effect on the health status of senior Manitobans; for instance, home care; for instance , the support services for seniors ; and hopefully , and this is really the hopeful one, that our health promotion efforts in some of the enhanced encouragement of activity amongst seniors , the walking , the fitness clubs, and the senior citizens activities in the various centres throughout the province may just be providing us with a healthier status amongst our seniors .

If that is the case, and that is explaining the five year decline in panelling and a levelling off of application for home care , then I think we can all take a great deal of comfort and really joy if that in fact is part of the reason that health promotion is finally having some impact on the health status of Manitobans, particularly senior Manitobans . We simply do not have a sophisticated enough analysis system to do that, to make that analysis.

That is, I tell my honourable friend, one of the greatest selling points of plastic card technology, its ability, if we can craft the system properly, to deliver that kind of health statistic outcome . We already have one of the most sophisticated systems in Canada through 20-plus years of commission statistics, but plastic card technology has the opportunity to make it even better for us. Mr. Ashton: Certainly in the committee we will be watching this area fairly closely.

I think it is an area of major concern and we will be watching this not just in terms of upcoming Estimates, next year 's Estimates, but in terms of throughout the year. I have a number of other questions. First of all, I would like to ask the Minister as to the Government's exact policy in terms of both layoffs and in terms of contracting out? The Minister has talked about attempt ing to establish a partnership with the providers of health care in this province .

I can tell the Minister that there is a great deal of concern amongst many of those providers about the apparent shift in policy of this Government towards allowing first of all, contracting out and second of all, allowing layoffs. There already have been a number of examples I know in terms of layoffs in terms of the Brandon situation in particular . There is a great deal of concern in the health care system from individuals about this particular policy . I know it is something that is of a particular concern of course of the unions, but also it is a grass-roots concern that comes up.

One of the questions that has been raised is the impact this will have on that partnership that the Minister wants to establish, and I think the partnership is important. I think the grass-roots providers of medical care are the key players in the system or should be the key players in the system . I would like to ask the Minister for exactly what the policy is in regard to contracting out and layoffs? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend uses a very, very bad example when he talks about layoffs in terms of the Rideau Park circumstance in Brandon.

He uses a bad example because we did everything possible over approximately a year of Government to try to come to an equitable solution to the fiasco of Rideau Park that we inherited, and I stress "inherit ed " to my honourable friend , because what had happened is that, and we go can go through it line-by-docket, and I can take the rest of this afternoon to point out how many times my honourable friends in Government prior to May of 1988 were warned by the unions that what they were doing in staffing Rideau Park was going to cause them problems .

My honourable friends in the NDP blundered ahead without proper consultation , without the proper partnership that he just talked about with the union movement. *

(1550) When the issue came to a head was when the certification between the two facilities ground to a halt as the unions predicted to the Government would happen , and a Labour Board decision confirmed the union's position . We had part of the staff from Brandon Mental Health Centre moving with the patients , as was the original concept and design. All of the patients moved . Part of the staff moved . The other part of the staff would not move , pending settlement of the union dispute that the Labour Board confirmed the union was correct when they warned the NDP Government what was going to happen .

So as a result you have got a facility with patients in it and not enough staff. The Government was forced, the NDP was forced to hire staff to carry out the patients while they settled the issue and they never did settle the issue. Now the NDP was prepared to carry on at a time when dollars are one of the scarcest commodities in the health care field paying staff in two different locations, double staff .

Brandon Mental Health Centre staff that were to transfer down were being paid at Brandon Mental Health Centre ; staff positions that were not filled by the transfer from Brandon Mental Health Centre were hired and paid. We had two staff for every position that was open . We tried through attrition, we tried through any number of methods over a full year to come to a reasoned solution of that and were unable to, and hence had to issue layoff notices. The Rideau Park issued layoff notices to a number of staff. Subsequent to that, it is my understanding that only one individual is still without a permanent job.

Now that issue of layoffs is not a good issue for my honourable friend the NDP Health Critic, because there was no layoff of any individual permanently in a job for which there was funding provided . What the layoff was for was because my honourable friends in the NDP 3256

Monday, November 27, 1989 did not take the advice of the union leaders who told them they were going to get into a fiasco over Rideau Park the way they were going. They would not listen, the Labour Board concurred with the union leadership, the fiasco was visited upon those staff who were double hired and we had to clean up an unfortunate situation that we inh erited from the NDP. My honourable friend might want to get into Pine Falls because that is a similar type of circu mstance. So, Mr.

Chairman, the issue of layoffs is not an issue other than when facilities have changed and there have been errors in overstaffing as a result of those errors. That has been the unfortuna te circu mstance twice now. Now in terms of contracting out, yes, there is the opportunity for facilities to contract out services, an opportunity that did not exist for a number of years.

Let me ind icate to my honourable friend that when facilities contract out, the new provider of service is encouraged and often does take on the staff who were currently performing that job, so there is no loss of employment in a majority of cases, but the reason for allowing the contracting out is to incr ease the flexibility within the system.

We ask and we continue to ask the major facilities to operate within a budget, no deficits, a policy that was put in place I believe in late 19 86 or early 1987, a polic y tha t we happen to belie ve brings some semblance of management systems to bear on the health care syste m.

If we say on the one hand that you must manage within budget and not have a deficit, I found it a little ironic to also say to them that when facilities are identified, alternate ways to deliver services guaranteeing quality of care and allowing those services to be delivered more economical ly, that we were speaking out of both sides of our mouths if we said, you had to be within budget but you could not manage the budget. So we have allo wed that mana gement flexibility with constant work with the facilities to assure that present employees are treated equitably by the new provider of service.

In the majority of cases that has been the case. Mr. Ashton: I will be more than glad to deba te the policies in terms of layoffs, in terms of contracting out, but the fact is there has been a change in the policy and the Minister knows that. The change has been that th_ere is no longer a no-layoff policy and there is no longer a no-contracting-out polic y. We can get into discussion of specific cases which the Minister referred to, as I said.

Unfortuna tely, we do not have the time to during the sitting of this comm ittee, but I am very concerned in tha t area and I would like to flag it because I think it is a very important matter. I want to move on to another area though and I want to ask a couple of questions- Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The Honour able Minister. Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend- 3257 ***** An Honourable Member: On a point of order , Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Orchard: No, I am answering some of your allegations. You ind icate that there is a layoff policy in place. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson. Mr.

Orchard: There is no layoff policy that can be made- Mr. Chairman: Order. Ord er, please. On a point of order? Mr. Ashton: No. I am just wondering if this is a point of order because I would like- Mr. Chairman: No. I recognized the Ho nourable Min ister to respond to your question. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I was recogniz ed- Mr. Chairman: The Member for Thompson, on a point of order . Mr. Ashton: I do not think it is in order for the Chairperson to interrupt if the Member has the floor to allow a Minis ter to-and he did not say he was replying to a question, he said he was replying to an allegation.

I stated an opinion, I did not ask him a question. I asked him previously; the Minister had more than ample opportunity to put the views of this Government on the record. I do not think it is in order for me to be prevented from continuing into another area. Mr. Chairman: I apolog ize if I interrupted you. I assumed you had finished your questioning and I was going to let the Minister respond. Mr. Ashton: I had ind icated there was no question, I indi cated we would be more than happy to discuss this at a later point in time. We are short of- ***** Mr. Chairman: The Member for Thompson, with his question. Mr.

Ashton: I did want to move it down. I am not trying to frustrate this comm ittee 's function, but we have ind icated to the Minister we are going to try and deal with MHSC toda y. I think the Minister realizes we are short of time in this area. I did not want to move into another area. An important area, and that is in terms of- Mr. Chairman: Excuse me then, have we passed admin istration? No? We are still on admin istration? The Member for Thompson.

Monday, November 27, 1989 Mr. Ashton: I think I have indicated that I would not be here tonight and rather than hold up various items I would ask basically that if there was no problem with the Members of the committee that I could ask a number of questions in different areas. If the Minister does not have the staff resources present to deal with it, I am quite willing to have answers provided at a later point in time . This is to allow for the committee to deal with MHSC as expeditiously and thoroughly as possible . I had a question in terms of the Northern Patient Transportation Program next if I might, Mr. Chairperson. •

(1600) I wanted to ask the Minister in terms of the NPTP, as it is known in the North, I notice that the budget as I take it has essentially been drafted on the assumption of a similar number of referrals as last year. A number of concerns have been expressed about particular criteria which date back I guess to the original date of the program in 1977. I will give you an example of a case that I became aware of recently . Mr. and Mrs . Buck are residents of Thompson, are a Native couple, Mrs. Buck does not speak any English, Mr. Buck speaks a limited amount of English .

He was referred to Winnipeg-this is part of the Air Ambulance I am talking about in this case, I am dealing with the two jointly . He is referred to Winnipeg, his wife was not allowed to accompany him unless she paid her own way. He ended up in Winnipeg, they sent actually the mother of the family and his wife down, and ended up being in the facility for about ten days and then being discharged without any way of getting back to Thompson. In fact he was-as I said he spoke a limited amount of English-we ended up with a situation where it created a great deal of trauma for the family .

I will be writing to the Minister on the specifics of this case. I do not expect the Minister to be aware of the specifics at this point in time, I realize that. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) What I would like to ask the Minister is whether he would consider reviewing the current criteria in terms of escorts, because in this case I think it was a highly reasonable request that Mrs. Buck be allowed to accompany Mr. Buck. Mr.

Buck by the way had never been in a hospital in his life and by reports from the family it was a very traumatic experience, especially with the prospect of not being accompanied by his wife, especially compounded by the language problems. I raise this because it has been raised in a number of other cases in terms of escorts . I would like to ask if there would be any consideration for a more flexible policy in that regard. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, I am informed that where an interpreter is essential that cost of transportation is covered.

We will need the details on this particular case because maybe that is Northern Medical Services , I do not know the genesis behind it. So we are prepared to investigate that for my honourable friend. I want to go back a moment to the layoffs that my honourable friend says there is a layoff policy, et cetera , 3258 et cetera . This layoff policy has always been in place in conjunction with the negotiated contracts that are in place.

My honourable friend mentioned Rideau Park as one of the layoffs that have occurred, but my honourable friend wants to continue not to tell Manitobans the facts on the reason for the layoffs at Rideau Park . There were two people being paid to do one job. The NDP policy would be to double-staff every position in the health care system . We cannot afford that . We worked diligently to avoid layoffs, and my honourable friend's policy would then have it to pay two people to do one job. That is not reasonable public policy. Mr. Ashton: As I said earlier, I would love to debate this with the Minister.

It is just a question of time. I would raise a concern generally in terms of the Northern Patient Transportation Program about the need for a review of the program. As I said, it is an excellent program that was established in 1977. I think we have seen a need in terms of both the Air Ambulance and the Northern Patient Transportation Program , the fact that you have a developing need in northern Manitoba . One of the concerns for example that has been expressed is the impact of the budget on individual decisions .

The concern has been expressed by both physicians and patients to myself that what happens is fiscal pressures have led to people who on previous occasions have been sent by air, for example, are being sent by bus, the basic policy being ground transportation unless there are medical complications. There has been a fair amount of confusion on this I might add because doctors in particular have indicated differing stories to patients. I think it is something that needs to be clarified even in terms of communication. I do think that the program is in need of review.

There are other areas for example, and I have written to the Minister in a case involving a teenager in my constituency who is being sent to Winnipeg for what is essentially jaw reconstruction surgery . Because it is not classified as being an insurable service, even though to my mind it has major medical implications, she is having to be sent for both the procedure and also for checkups at the expense of her parents. I might add that right now with all the fuss about the Northern Tax Allowance being taken away by the federal Government, it is a matter of some sensitivity to say the least.

I do believe there are a number of borderline cases that are worthy of review in the same way for example that a review took place of the policy of transportation by air ambulance of individuals outside of the province. I remember that very well, because one of the key factors in having that policy changed just over a year and a half , two years ago, was a case in my own constituency where an individual had to be sent to Ontario for a heart transplant that was not available in Manitoba. Initially the family was told they would have to foot the entire $8,000 bill.

There was a review of that policy and it was changed by the previous Government. It is in that spirit that I would like to ask if the Minister would be willing to look at an overall review of the

Monday, November 27, 1989 Northern Patient Transportation Program and to a lesser extent the Air Ambulance Program, which seems to be functioning far more smoothly , to ensure that the criteria are in keeping with the current circu mstances in northern Manitoba. As I said, this is based I assume on a budget of the same number of referrals. I am not sure if that is going to be an actual reflect ion of the need .

It ma y be a reflection of whether people pass the criteria, but I do believe there is additional need out there both in terms of the existing criteria and in terms of some changes that I think are probably necessary. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, the Air Ambulance Program has been in existence for a number of years and there have been successive improvements to that service. For insta nce when we came into Government in 19 77 there was a Mitsubishi MU-2 used for the medical evacuation aircraft. That aircraft, the vernacular was that it experienced a heavy landing.

It crashed and broke a wing off in other words, for the layman. Fortunately nobody was injured, but tha t plane was out of service and as a consequence in 1980 I purcha sed the Cessna Citation on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba to provide faster, safer patient transportation. Subsequently , tha t was upgra ded to Citation 2 by the next adminis tration with full medical capability in the Air Ambulance. That is a very, very expensive service. Any air transportation, any air evacuation or medical evacuation is very expensive compa red to ground transportation.

I sense from my honourable friend's question that he questions why people would be put on a bus or another form of ground transportation when the Air Ambulance is available. Those never were for every patient, and the criteria for use of those have not changed. Where a person can be transported safely by gr ound without medical prob lems by ground transpor tati on, that is what is provided under the Northern Patien t Tr ansportation Program. Only emergency cases, and there are some fairly stringent criteria to make sure that you are onl y using the medical evacuation ai rcraft in times of genuine medical need.

I think if my honourable friend reflects on the reason for that policy he will concur . You cannot have your most sophistica ted air ambulance out of service for what could be ac compl ished thr ough ground transporta tion, because you never know when you are going to need it for the evacuation of a very sick child. That was a subject of a controversy that his colleague, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie), brought up in the House, where he made the accusation that we refused a woma n air transp ortation when the circum stance was quite adequa te to provide Canadian's regular scheduled flight out of Flin Flon, and the Medi vac was used for two other patients, one of them a critically ill child out of Churchill and the other an urgently ill in dividual out of Thompson, both of whom required the Air Ambulance. The Air Ambulance is simply not for every patient.

That is why there is a $3 million commitment to Northern Patient Transpo rtation Program to provide support for transportation to needed medical services, primarily in Winnipeg, but more importantly to do it economicall y, so that we can afford to continue the Air Ambulance Program which, if one looks at the funding, you will see tha t it was budgeted at 2.3 million last year, and has incr eased to 5.4 million for this year cur rently. It soon will have increases annually equivalent to the entire Northern Patient Transportation Program. That is because of use and utilization.

The criteria are not unfairly admin istered. Those are very, very di fficult decisions often to make, but I am confident from the investigation I have done tha t the staff involved do a very professional and competent job of making those decisions for the provision of safe and effective patient evacuation and transportation. Mr. Ashton: Actually, I think the Min ister was referring to the ambula nce program there, not the Air Ambulance in terms of the figures tha t were quoted, but I am not talking about so much the criteria between ground and the Air Ambulance.

I am not suggesting that the Air Ambulance be used for sending patients or anything other than in a critical situation. However, the program, the Northern Patient Transportation Program, sends peopl e either by bus, by other form of ground transportation or by air, by regular scheduled carrier , and the concern has been expressed In terms of people who on other occasions have been sent by air because of medical compl ications, who are then sent by bus. The other concern is in terms of people who are not eligible whatsoever.

I have correspondence to the Minister of the one case, and I will be pursuing that, because I believe in that case there are medical reasons why this should be covered under the Northern Patient Transportation Program.

I am talking about the criteria within the Northern Patient Transportation Program, both in terms of who is eligible, who goes by bus and who goes by air. * (1 610) One other question related to Northern Patient Transportation tha t I would like to raise is-it is more of a point actually-one of the factors of concern to hospitals in northern Manitoba is the fact that, by providing an incre ased num ber of services here in our communities, we would be in a situation where we can actually reduce the burden on the Northern Patient Transportation Program.

I know, for example, the Thompson hospital recently submitted a propos al on a new ultrasound machine because the current machine is very heavily booked. I kno w a numb er of the applications to the Health Services Commission have not been accepted and I would raise this because I think there is the concern among local hospitals, the very real feeling tha t more services could be provided on a regional basis rather than strictly out of Winnipeg which would have a couple of advantages. First of all, it would make it far more convenient for people to attend to that medical treatment.

They will not have to go through the transportation factor . They also do not lose time off, work which is the current situation, and in many cases too it is quite an upheaval in terms of the family situation. Also in terms of the medical system there are very good suggestions that 3259

Monday, November 27, 1989 an overall saving can be brought together by the medical system and I would raise that concern. I also just want to very briefly-and if the Mini ster wants to respond to it, I just have a couple of other brief points, then I know the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) will be asking a number of questions, and say that there are a number of other issues that I think need to be looked at obviously in terms of the bed closures, whether it be the holiday bed closures or tempor ary bed closures to determine what the current situation is, what the current policy is.

A concern has been expressed about the impact on the system I know by many people in the hospitals inv olved with the holiday bed closures, for example. I am not suggesting they did not occur before. I want to make tha t clear. What I am suggesting is-and this is what people are saying in the system -there is very real concern that there are going to be problems related to those holiday bed closures because of the waiting lists, because of the general pressure on the system.

There is another area I think that also has to be raised and that is the current situation in terms of waiting lists for certain speciali zed procedures, and I know this is one area where information has been limited in the past. The Min ister talked about a better information base. I believe there is quite a great deal of in consis

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-79a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 79a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8e47916f819343ec6779866a0b3e270e772b29bc

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