Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 10, 1974 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE JAM,ES M. RUSSELL Number 68

May 10, 1974 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1589 (Morning) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! PETITIONS ----- MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Trinity North. PK - 1 !-IR. C. R. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, this is the second day in a row that I had to ask leave to present a petition. I do not know what it proves other than that nrobablv my district has to be one of the ones that was probably neglected for a long time. This pet1tion is from the residents of the communities of Harcourt, Monroe, BurgoynP.s Cove. follows: The prayer of the petition is as

Whereas the road from Georges Brook to Burgoynes Cove is known as Route 28, is in a deplorable and downgraded condition:

Whereas residents must commute to and from their places of emplovrnent, Clarenville and Come By Chance each day:

Whereas our children must commute by bus to their schools in Clarenville and Shoal Harbour;

Whereas in a time of sickness residents must travel to Clarenville to see a doctor:

Whereas the area is attractive to tourists and supports fishermen:

Whereas the residents are conce~ned about rural development and development is impossible without adequate transportation means: We the undersip,ned and voters of Burgoynes Cove, Monroe and Harcourt in the electoral District of Trinity North request that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador have the road from Georges Brook to Burgoynes Cove upgraded and paved,commencing during the sW11111er of 1974.

As I have already pointed out, Sir, this particular piece of road - maybe the whole district received a very small oo_rtion,practically none of the goodies that were thrown around even during an election time for the past twenty years. So maybe the time has come for some action on gravel roads. As was outlined in the nrayer of the petition, it is necessary for people in this area to commute to work, children to school, 5110

Tape 1589 (Morning) PK - 2 ;,ll the rP<:1riPnts to r1,..,..,.,.,,,q 10 ,..,.,,.,,c:al facilitif's and it must be very, very tryinp; to these r,eool.e to have to travel over these muddv and dustv ro:ads. This vear we hone to see the comnletion of a provincial park close to the Rarcourt Area. This will obviouslv increase the 11mount of traffic that will he travelling over the road this summer, there­ fore, of course, increase the amount of dust that will be flying. ~lr. Sneaker, I ask that this netitior . li<' t ah led and referred to the denartment to which it r!'lates.

Hopefully it will p.et some action this year. :MR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~ember for Bonavista North. HR. P. S. THOMS: Mr. SpPl'lkPr. T rise on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House. We will heartily sunport the pet:ltion and we trust that the prayer of this petition vill be answered durin1; the cominP­ season. Other members on the government side of the House have already announced their contracts have been asked for various roads in their districts. T am sure the honourable !'ember for Trinity North is no exception.

I believe he announced yesterday or today that it would be approximately Sl million snent in his district this vear. tam sure th;,t seeing th~t he is so close to the administration and very close indeed to the Premier that he can persuade the administration to have the nraver of this netition p.ranted durin~ the summer season. I trust that he wil 1 nrove himself and that this administration will respond to the or~ver of the petition. 'ffi • SP EAKER : Are there any other petitions? MOTIONS MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. ----- --- HON. T. A.

Hir.K!"lAN (MINJSTF.R OF JUSTICE): I have a motion here hut I have loRt it, I think I recall it, Mr. Sneaker. I p.ive notice that ' will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, 'An Act Further To Amend The Judicature Act . ' ANSWERS TO OUF.STIONS FOR WHICH NOTICF: HAS BF.F.N f:TVF.N ,_ ""'T.., .. :.> I i .l

May 1n, 1<174 Tape 1589 (Morning) PK - 3 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKF'.1l: The honourahle Member for St. Barbe North. ~!R. F. B. ROW!': Mr. Speaker, I have some ouestions for the Minister of 1ndustrial nevelonment or Industrial :Relations and for the Minister of F.ducation. Would the Sneaker indicate whether the Minister of Fducation is going to anpear during the oral question oeriod? The Hinister of Education is in ~ort au Port . MF._RO\:J!"~~ Well nrohahly the Honourable Deputv Premier or the Minister of Justice could answer a couple of quest1ons, Mr. Soeaker. In vietJ of the

article in the "Dailv News•· this morning that all systems are go for the re~ional collep,e, might I ask the Minister of Justice why he finds it necessary to go to Montreal to settle the legal formalities for eighteen point three acres of land which I understood were donated to eith~r Memorial University or to the government for the ournoses of construction of the rep,ional college in Corner Rrook? MR. ll.OBERTS: )'IR. HI CI<>-'AN : That was donated by Bowaters. Presumin~ that, and this is a oure assumption, I cannot find the

article which the honourable gentJeman is referring to. I certainly have not heen directly involved in the legalities of the transfer of the orooerty. I assume Bowaters' head office for Canada is in Montreal. MR. RClBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: J\owaters Newfoundland head office is in Corner llrook. ll:lght, hut the parent companv is in ~fontreal and I assume that they are negotiating with the solicitors for Bowaters but I do not know. I really do not know. MR. ROWE, F. B. Does the minister know whether he is goinp; to M"ontreal or not? MR. HICKMAN: Whether who is going to Montreal? MR. RO~ffi, F. B. The Hon.

Minister of Justice states in the paper that Alex Hickman will go to Montreal as a legal formality. as a complete sun,rise to the honourable minister. It seems to come AN HON. MEMBER: Today is Friday to the honourable minister. MR. HICKMAN: I will say it is. No, Mr. Speaker, let me assure you - wait a minute now. 5772

Tape 1589 (~faming) PK - 4 AN HON. tff:1-iBER: floes he want to see it? MR. HlC](}IAN: I am delighted to hear it. AN HON. ~!EMBER : Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F. B. • .. cabinet solidaritv on the other side. If anyone want to invite me - I suspect that this refers to some member of staff 1 n "'Y department. You kno~J, why would I go to Montreal to draft a deed? MR. ROWF., F. B. Well this is the very question I am trying to find out, Mr. Sneaker. MR. H:~_C_KMAN: \,Tell I nrohablv have, hut •.. MR . ROWE . F. B. Mr.

Sneaker, it is unfortunate that the Minister of Education and the ~inister of Industrial ~elations are not in their seats to answer some of the auestions. Probably the - MR. HICKMAN: Thev will be here on Monday. '.'-IR. ROWE 1 F. B. Could the minister - MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary question. MR. ROWE, F. B. Could the '-linister of Justice - MR. ROBERTS: Is the honourable member still on that one? ~IR.. ROWE, F. IL Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Okay. MR. ROWE, F. R. Could the Minsiter of Justice indicate who will be renting the building to the government and on what terms? MR. HICKY.A!'I: No I am not in a position to know.

MR. ROBERTS: Well a supplementary question then. Based on the fact that this 1 and ,,,as p.i.ven or ar.re~d to he Piven hv Bowaters for the purnose of the colleage, would the minister undertake to find out to whom it has been transferred and why? And whether it is being transferred to the company with whom the government have made a sweetheart deal in respect of the proposed regional college in Corner Brook? And if it is to be transferred,for what consideration? l real1r.e he probably has not got this information. HR. HICKMAN: No I have not . 'IR. ROBERTS: Will he undertake to find it out? ti77.3

May lrJ, 1974 Tape 15~9 (Morning) PK - 5 MR, HICI01AN: I will undertake to find it out, ~r. Speaker, hut at the same time I must take f5sue with the comment hy the Hon. Leader of the Opposition. To my knowledge there has been no sweetheart deal made between the government and anvone. Honourable gentlemen will recall that when the regional college was agreed on in principle that proposals were advertised for by government from any companies who were prepared to enter into the necessary financial arrangements. There is no sweetheart deal. MR. ROBERTS: 1"R. HICKMAN: The Hon. Minister of Justice has walked into it.

No, no. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary question. Is the minister aware that the nroposal from Western Realities Company Limited, a company that is either about to he or has recently been incorporated, is not a firm nrfce.: Is the minister aware that officials from the Denartment of Public Works an.d Services are negotiating a price? 15 the minister aware of these things? Will the minister check into it? Will the minister check into it to see if it is in fact a sweetheart deal that I say it is? MR. HICKMAN: It is not a sweetheart deal but I will - MR. ROBERTS: Will the minister undertake to - Yes, yes. MR.

HICKMAN: ~IR. ROBERTS: Table in the House, Mr. ~peaker, the documents, the tender documents, the proposals. Is the minister aware, Mr. Sneaker, a further supolementary, that there was no firm price submitted, that there were no firm contract documents sent out? This is one of the great cotential scandals of all times. X)l. SPF.AKER: Order, nlease! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBER.TS: Oh the thnmper thumps again. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. "R. ROWE. F. B.

Could somebody, the Government House Leader or the Deputy Preimer,indicate whether or not the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing will be in his seat this morning during the oral question 5774

!-fay 10, 1974 Tape 1589 ("orning) PK - f, oeriod? Mr. Speaker, I had some imoortant questions to put to the Minister of Education and/or the Minister of Municipal Affairs with regards to the school tax authority for the Avalon Consolidated School Board in St. John's Area. I would like for it to be noted that they are not in their seats and not there to answer some fruitful questions. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. ROWE. F. IL Well why do they not turn up for the question period? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: HON. MF:MBERS: Inaudihle. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, nlease! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR.

SPEAKE?: If honourable members are ouite, I will try and say something. It has just been brought to my attention that we have in the galleries from St. Phillip's Elementary School, Grade V Opportunity Class, thirty-nine students,with their teachers, Miss Clarke and Mr. Sheppard. On behalf of all honourable memheri:: I wish to welcome you to the galleries this morning and trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative. ~- ROWE, F. B. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if it would be in order to move the oral question period to 3:00 P.M., this afternoon, when some of the m:1.nisters are in their seats to answer the questions? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: No, it would not be in order. No, all out of order. ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion that the House resoved itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Mil. CHAIP~.AN (STAGG): Order, nlease! For the information of honourable gentlemen we have eleven hours and nineteen minutes time remaining of the seventy-five hours allocated to the consideration of the estimates. ~.ffi.. P. S.

THOMS : Hr. Chairman, if I can at this time, seeing you mentioned the houri::; if the estimates are not passed when the seventy-five 5775

'Ma~ 10, 1Cl74 Tape 1589 (Morninp.) PK - 7 hours are uo, shall we go into overtime? AN HON. ~RER: Sudden death. MR. CHAil!f'AN ( !,TAC''..9l.:._ Sudden death. yes. The question was addressed to the Chair - AH l!ON. 'MRMBFR: I think we better stick to hockey. }ff. CHAIRJ-!AN:(STAGG): The rules are clear on that subject and I suggest the honourable member might read them. AN HON. '-IF.~ER: A good idea. !'fR. CHA IR."1AN : (STAGG) : nage 41 of the estimates. t,•e are presently dealing with 711-03-04 on MR. P. S.

THO}IS: 'When we concluded last night the minister was endeavouring to answer some questions that I nut to him in regards to legal - aid. What I wanted to know is if he could explain the whole set up of legal-aid. How many lawyers were involved? The staff of legal-aid? What is covered, and if people outside of St. John's could apply for legal-aid and if they would be given legal aid? Because some of my constitutents to date have been refused legal aid. So I would like for the minister to explain it. ~-'R. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I very gladlv appraise the information but this committee is very fortunate to have here this morning the Chairman of the Legal -Aid Society, the honourable the Member for Placentia East. 1 will defer to him as I understand he wants to have a few comments on the Legal-Aid Programme and then if there are some questions still outstanding I shall be very happy to answer them. MR. F. AYLWARD: Mr.

Chairman, I am glad of this opportunity first to inform the members of the Cot!911ittee generally with respect to legal aid, and, of course, through this media to let the public know really what the Legal-Aid Progra111111e has done and what it is all about. I feel myself, Mr. Chairman, that the Lep;al-Aid Committee and the Law Society of Newfoundland have really done an excellent job in providing a top-notch service to the people of Newfoundland who are entited to receive legal-aid, when one considers, Mr. Chairman, that this legal - aid Programme only started in 1968, in June of 1968 actually.

Well I suppose its inception was in 1964. I recall at a meeting of the ti776

May 10, 1974 Tape 1589 (Morning) PK - 8 Law Society and I brought up this question. Like any society or organization where one brings up a question one generally ends up Chairman of the committee to look into it,and that is wh2t happened with legal-aid. But I recall the members of the committee, Mr. John O' Neill, Mr . Ed Neary, !•r. Marshall, who is now the Member for St. John's East, Mr. Allen r.aule, Mr. Martin and Mr. Kevin Griffin of Grand Falls, who is now deceased.

Well they worked for two years and subsequently reported to the Law Society and the Soc1.ety in 1968 apnroved the setting up of the legal- -aid. At that time we had no funds whatsoever artd through the co-operation of the now Attorney General we were provided by the government with an office on Duckworth Street and an annual grant of $10,000. From that grant of iust $1n,ooo, we tried to provide a systematic type of legal--aid on the criminal and civil side in Newfoundland. For the three years, ~•r.

Chairman, I think the members of the public should know it is really for 1968, 1969, 1970 and in fact 1971, the Law Society of Newfoundland provided legal-aid in civil and criminal matters without any cost whatsoever to the recipients of legal-aid. In 1971,the grant was increased bv the provincial government,from $10,000 a year to $25,000 a year. At that time we engaged the services of a lawyer, ~!r. Timothy Chalker,who stayed with the committee for about a year and a-half, then he stopped and went into private practice.

So for 1968 we had $10,000, for 1969 we had $10,000 and for 1970, $10,000 and for 1971, $25,000. So for all of these years, Mr. Chairman, the members of the Law Society, as I said, Provided legal-aid to the recipients,under a restricted nlan,without any fee whatsoever. In some cases where the lawyers to whom cases were assigned could not themselves handle these cases, they retained lawyers and oaid the fee themselves.

Tn 1972 we still received a grant of $25,000 and we negotiated a reduced scale fee with the Minister of Justice. 1973, last year of course, was a great step forward when the nrovincial government increased the grant to $100,000 and on behalf of the G77}

May 1n, 1974 Tape No. 1601 NM - 8 make sure that the minister himself is fully aware of some of the problems which I am gojng to deal with very briefly, some of the problems in the District of White Bay South. Startinr, at the extreme northern end, Sir, I would like to commend to the minister a sugf!est i on that hopefully money will loosen up this year to provide water services at any rate for .Jackson's Arm and Sops Arm and Pollards Point. These places have received certain grants under the old unincorporated water vote or communities water system vote, whatever the real name of it was.

They received money there, not nearly enough to do the complete job to provide the basic of life, water to the people of those communities.

Although part of the job has bren done and I would ask the minister and his of ficials to try to look after that this year, any remaining work that has to be done, Try to look after Jc, Sir, the money you are talking about is in the tens of thousands, not a great deal of money at all but to the people concerned, while not a matter of life and death, there is a difference between a halfway pleasant 11fe and a life of drudgery for the woman of the ~ousehold or the man who comes home from work and has to lug water two or three miles during the heat of the SU111111er.

So I would ask that the tens, maybe $30,000 or $40,000 I do not know, $50,000, I had a study in there done by an engineering firm and I forget the figures now with regard to the Jackson's Arm one. Jackson's Arm, Sop's Arm, Pollard's Point should be looked after,hopefully this summer,by the nepartment of Municipal Affairs and I hope the minister when he rises can say whether in fact that is going to be done or not.

Down in Hampden Bayside a rea thev have, of course that is a municipality, they have a water and sewer system there which is inadequate for certain purposes, I leave it in the hands of the department to meet the exigencies of those col!DDunities when they arise because it has an organization there and they can contact the department. Comin~ on to the Baie Verte Peninsula, Sir, Westport and Purbeck's Cove are two other communities where they have difficulties with these basic municipal services. Part again of the problem has been solved. One of the 5878 I '

May 10, 1974 Tare 159n (mornin~) IB-1 legal aid in c·riminal cases. Now the province entered that agreement in March hut the a~reement was retroactive to January 1, 1973. Mr. Chairman,under that ag,reement the province was given the right to desiFUate the p.rovincial agency in the province to administer legal - aid. I feel thirt the province, the p:ovemment and the pe.ople of Newfoundland were indeed very, very fortunate to have the legal- aid committee then constituted to be able to provide this service because the money alone really is not sufficient, Mr. Chairman.

We heard the A·t ·tornev C'.eneral say here last ni~ht that he has encotmt~ ·red over the years considerahle difficulty in trying to obtain lawv,ers tor his department. We heard him say that he has offered as high as $32,000 a salary scale for legal draftsiqen and trying to get people to conduet the prosecution in criminal matters. Now, Mr. Chai,rman,here they had these funds available and thev wanted service nrovided to everyone in Newfoundland who is charged with an inr!ictable offense and who could not afford the services of a lawyer.

So, for the honourable ~tle111Bn from Bonavista North I would say t1'is, that there ar-e two types of legal­ aid, legal-aid in criminal matt-era ard legal-aid in civil matters. In cri111inal 111atte,r,s llhich are cover.ed by the agreement between the province of Newfoundland and the C:overnment of Canada, every individual in Newfo\Bldland who is charged with an indictable offense and who cannot afford the services of a lawyer is entitled to legal-aid in criminal 111atters, not sunanary conviction now ~utan indictable offense.

So. we have from the beginning.,even when legal-aid was voluntary, made it ab\Bldantly cJea•r that we wanted to provide legal­ aid, not to the residen,ts o.f St. John's or the residents of Corner Brook but to all of Newfoundland and Labrador. This means now t-0day in Newfoundland anyone anywhere in Ne,-1 f0tmd land or Labrador who is chargccl wHh an indictable offense or a child who is charp.ed with an offense under the Welfare of Children Act, in these two cases these are covered by the agreement between the province and the r.ovemment of Canada. They are entitled to legal-aid if requiring these -persons ti771;J

May 10, 1974 Tape 1590 IR-2 to pay for a lawyer they would incur heavy indebtness or be reouired to dispose of modest assets. What this means in effect is that the person does not have to be a pauper.

In fact, under the test applied on the criminal side, the situation could arise and very easily and very often does arise where a man who is working and has a family or even if he does not have a family and he finds himself char~ed wjth an indictable offense and he does not have any money and he would have to borrow money to pay a lawyer or he would have to dispose of some modest assets to get money to pay a lawyer, under this agreement,although he is working, he qualifies for legal aid. So, this means, ~r.

Chairman,that anyone in any part of Newfoundland or Labrador who is today charged with an indictable offense and cannot afford the services of a lawyer or if requiring him to pay for a lawyer he would be obliged to dispose of modest assets or incur heavy indebtness, then he is entitled to a lawyer. Now the point I am trying to make is simply this - I do not want to delay the committee, Mr. Chairman - but you can imagine what a demand on legal services this i~poses. The Attorney ,,eneral says the trouble he has trying to get people to conduct prosecution.

The legal-aid committee was functioning so that we could then undertake and did in fact or have in fact to date provided this service to the people. When this agreement was entered into, I, as chairman of the committee, circularized the profession and I asked the number of lawyers in Newfoundland arid Labrador who were prepared to provide legal-aid in criminal matters to send in their names to the legal-aid committee. This was for Comer Brook we had an office,because Corner Rrook was the only other center outside St. John's where there were a sufficient number of lawyers. So, ~r.

Chairman, what we did then was we circularized the profession and seventy-five lawyers indicated their willingness to accept criminal assi,mments. That means that seventy-five lawyers in Newfoundland agreed that if a person needed legal aid and he qualified ti730

1'fay 10, 1974 Tape 1590 IB-3 under the plan and he wanted a lawyer, the perscn entitled could select his lawyer. I felt very strongly, ~r. Chairman, that throughout this programme we should try as far as possible to ensure that the individual receiving legal-aid had a right to chcose his own lawyer, within the scope of course,depending if the lawyer was to provide the service. So, today anyone in Newfoundland who qualifies for legal aid in a criminal matter and he wants a lawyer, he goes to the legal-aid office in St.

John's or in Corner Hrook or he writes the legal-aid office and if he should qualify he is given this list of lawyers and he is entitled to select any lawyer on that list. Also on the civil side we have srvt'ntv lawyers who are prepared to take civil assignments. I wil 1 come to that in a moment. On matrimonial matters we have another seventy lawyers. So, perhaps the Attorney General - I have suggested this to him - could probably take a leaf from our hook and try tn see if lawyers in private practices would not themselves take, if requested by the government, these prosecutions. Re that as it may, Mr.

Chairman, I am not of course concerned wi.th that aspect of it here. What I want to get across to the members of the committee is that the people entitled and who require legal-aid today in Newfoundland receivf.' equally as good if not better service than the people who are naying for it. I will give them an example now, Mr.

Chairman, else they recieve. in addition to that what This year, under the federal agreement, in addition to funds being availahle to pay lawyers for providing the service in criminal matters. they also provide funds to the committee or to the government in Newfoundland which in turn provides and passes it on to us to pay for lawyers on duty iust p;iving out advice. So, what we did this year,beginning in January, I circularized the profession to find out how manv lawyers were prepared to act as what we call duty counsel.

The function of dutv cotmsel is this ; to attend in the magistrates courts and the jails, the lockups,every morning. Now,

May 10, 1974 Tape 1590 Ill-4 we could not do that all throu!!hout Newfoundland. What we did was in St. John's when a magistrates court is in session every day, we have a lawyer down there every morning ahout an hour before the court opens and if there is enour-h work and he is required to stay, he can stay there for the entire morning. In addition to that, the lawyer who is on duty for the week must also he prepared to take phone calls after hours.

We have an arrangement with Answer Telephone Service that if anybody anywl:ere in Newfoundland is charp;ed with an indictable offense and he wants legal advice, he can phone the legal-aid office and thev have a twenty­ four hour answering service. If the person is ~icked up twelve, one, two, three or four o'clock in the morning and he wants advice, he can phone the legal aid-office at the number and he will he referred to a lawyer. So that there is t~·enty-four hour service.

I think this is really fantastic because anybody who has trjed to contact a lawyer after six or seven o'clock, even if he is prepared to pay for it, has, I respectfu]ly submit, encountered trouble. What this means is that the people who are receiving this service, I said, are getting better service in some cases than people who are prepared to pay for it. Now, Mr. Ch.airman, I wanted to ensure again, as far as possible, that this service was not alone provided in St. John's and r.orner Brook hut throughout Newfoundland.

So, in every center in Newfoundland where there was a practicing lawyer, the legal-aid committee made arran1?ements with that lawyer or with that law firm to provide the similar service. We could not send a lawyer to every corner in Newfoundland, in every magistrates court,because there are just not enough 18",yers in Newfoundland. In r.orner Rrook we have an arrangement similar to St. John's. In Grand Falls we have retained one lawyer who is prepared to provide the service. So he appears in court in r.rand Falls on the same basis. The duty cotmsel will interview people in the lockup.

He will arrange for a postpone~ent of their case. He will not handle their case there. If the person should qualify, he is sent to the legal-aid office and there 5782

!'lay 10, 1974 IR-5 he can select any lawyer he likes. There is a lawyer on duty in the court to assist as soon as he is confronted with a legal problem. In addition, l<r. Chairman, to St. John's and CoTner "Brook. as I have mentioned, we have a lawyer in Grand Falls. In Gander there is a law firm there. We have- an arran~ement with that law firm to do the same. In Gander, so it is quite close to my honourahle friend's district. Anvbody, I suggest, to and from his area, could properly contact that with respect to criminal. matters. Also we have an arrangement with the law firm practicing in Lahrador City, Messrs.

Miller and Heam, who are providing the service. In Port au Port the chairman and another memher has a firm out there and we have an arranf';ement with them to look after that particular area. In Harbour Grace there is a gentleman, '{r. 1-"oores. who is practicing there. Mr. noores is providing a restricted service but as much as we can get from him in that area. I think I have mentioned all the centers where there are lawyers. ~.N HONO!TRARLE 1"F¥RF.R: Marys town? trR. AYLWl\!!O: Marystown? ro.

The gentleman in '-'arystown appears to he doinr, so well that he has not indicatecl his desire or willingness to participate. In every center in Newfoundland where there is a lawyer practicing and where we can obtlli .n that service under this agreement, these funds are available and we are providing it. So, l'r. Chairman, I think that this is really an excellent service. Considering the number of lawvers in Newfoundl1md and considering the difficulties of transportation and the areas of Labrador and that, it is I think a tribute to the orofession that they have found it possible of course to do the work.

Now, we have travelled throughout Ne'lidoundlan<l and even as far. as Nain in Labrador cases anywhere. In all cases where the witnesses are require~, in addition to paying the lawyer, where the witnesses are required the lawyer pavs for the witnesses and of course he collects it from the committee. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is of course on the criminal side. I have made every effort possible to try to hrin~ this to the attention

May 10, 1974 Tape 1590 IB-6 of the people. This is why I am spending a little bit of time here acquainting honourable memhers with it. When the programme was introduced I puhlished notices in both the papers here in St. John's and in Corner Brook.

The notice read, "Any individual in Newfrundland or Labrador who has been charged with an indictable offense or has a child charged with a breach of the Welfare of Children Act who cannot at his own expense without himself or his dependant children suffering undue financial hardship such as incurring heavy indebtness or being required to dispose of modest, necessary assets, is entitled to receive legal aid. "Any individual requesting legal-aid should contact the legal aid office at the union bank building, Duckworth Street, St. John's." I gave the number.

"Or the legal aid office at r.orner Brook." I gave that mnnber. I published that throughout all the papers for about three or four weeks,in January and February. In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, I addressed the magistrates' annual meeting. I gave them up-to-date information including copies of the agreement and explained in detail the service provided. I sent to the commissioner of the RC:MP aboet fifty copies of this notice and asked him to put it in a prominent place in every lockup throughout the country. Some lawyers I think said that the RCMP put this behind the door or the door when they opened it.

Be that as it may they have been requested to post these notices in prominent places throughout every police station in Newfoundland. Any individual when he is brought in,if he can read - I would hope that the police would bring it to his attention. I feel myself, Mr. Chairman, that th~ time a person needs a lawyer most is when he is first confronted with a law officer. This service should be available to him as soon as he is questioned by the police and certainly when he is placed under arrest.

Now, today in Newfoundland any individual who cannot afford the services of a lawyer, who finds himself in that position, may telephone these numbers and he will receive instantaneous advice. By that I mean as soon as they get R lawyer if it be after six o'clock, 5784

l-lay lfl, 1974 Tape 1590 IB-7 there is a lawyer on duty. As far as the civil side is concerned, we need to expand on that side, Mr. Chairman. I suppose the main area there, as I see it, is in divorce and matrimonial matters. Now the funds that we receive from thr provincial government we must pay the outstandinp ten per cent of the cost of providing legal aid in criminal matters al'!d of' course we have to nay for the lawyers who provide the service on thr civil side on a reduced basis. Now the honourable gentleman mentioned that he had two residents who are looking for legal-aid.

Now, as one can apprP.ciate, legal-aid on the civil side does not cover every type of situation. In the hip.: area which I would like to see c-xpanded and which we have in fact expanded considerably, that is in the field of matrimonial matters and divorce and separation agreements, I always feel myself that there can he more hardship result to a family from a broken home than from a broken lei:\ or anything of that narticular type. On the medical side we give peor,le the top-notch medical service, doctors, dentists, hospitals, everything.

On the c-ivi] side. a married woman with a family ,-•ho has a sertous matrimonial !'roh lem ancl she cannot ,ifford a la,-,vcr, well wh,it is hr>r situ;ation? I h;ave tried as far as possihlc to see the nrogr;ammc expand in that direction becausf' tJ,e man is fencrall~• ,•orkinp.: and he gees off and her<" is t'ir woman and her family left s•ithout anv financial resourc-es whatsoevc-r. Tn this casf' we have, nevpr in le1;al-;aid re_iected anyone who founci h<'rs<"lf in such 11 position, never. In fact, ~r.

C:hairman, in cases wrPrC' on t\,e f11cc- of j t they would not qualify. ,it the offices the adrninistrat0rs h11ve hPc-n Jnstructrcl to hend over hackwards to accommodate those people. JTnrler the existing nropramme as f11r as clivorce and matrimonial mattrrs arf' concerned, if the health of either one of thr n11rties to thP m11rriav.e is in cianv.f'r hv a continuation of the m;atrjmoni"l trouble and 11 cioctor or a social wor1'-er certifies that is the case, then tl-iat l'erson is cntitl.ecl tr, recPive le~al aid nr a divorc:,:, c,r a senar,iti0n agreement. The commjttee mav he surnrised to learn that G7J5

May 10, 1974 Tape 159!1 IR-8 even under rur restricted rules for divorce and matrimonial matters, this vear alone we have had from January to May, over a hundred divorce cases. Maybe, Mr. Chairman, - I will give you the statistics in a moment and I think they will show how fantastic the P,rowth has heen. But in ~ivorce and matrimonial matters, these are the imnortant a_reas. WI' are expanding in that direction. There are very, very few who have been rejected on that for assist=ce in maintenance, matrimonial matters and divorce.

I will be happv when I see no restriction whatsoever so that when a person .iust needs a lawyer to have one without this requ:1 rement of requiring a doctor's certificate or a certificate of a social worker, when that is done away with. Now, Mr. Chairman, a few moments and I will just give you the statistics which I think will show you how fantastic the growth has been. In 19fi9 we had 356 peoole apply for lE:gal-aid. In 1Q70 we had 3fil. In 1971, Mr. Chairman, there were 496. In 1972 there Wf're 591. Now, !-Ir. Chairman, in 1973 we.had 1,359 applicants for le~al aid.

Of these 1,359; 989 were peorle rf'<1uiring leial aid in civil matters and 246 in criminal matters. ~o, last year we had l, 35'1 api,1 i catinns. This year alone, !-Ir. Chairman, · to il11te, from ·January to the end of April,we have had Rf,3 persons apply to the legal-aid office for assistance. 272 of these were persons lool·ing for assistance in criminal matters and 591 in civil matters. To date this year alone we have assigned over 200 cases, criminal cases, to lawyers to look after under legal-aid. That is not throughout the who] e of Newfoundland and Labrador. Also we have assigned over 200 criminal cases.

So, you can imagine, "fr·. Chairman, how fantastic the growth and expansion of this programme has been. J only hope that we can keep up with the phenomenal demands for legal-aid in Newfoundland. One can certainly see that if we have over 800 people looking for assistance so far this year that it will probahly go very close to 2,000 applicants. That, ~r. Chairman, is going to impose quite a very, very heavy strain upon the people providing the services. 5786

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page 1 - MW We will or we hope that with the assistance of the profession we can continue to keep the service on a very, very high and satisfactory level. Like people who can afford to pay for lawyers, they encounter delays. I think, Mr. Chairman, it is a tribute to the lawyers who have participated in the programme that one has heard so very, very few complaints about it and when one thinks that this organization has helped over 1,300 people last year and has taken over 500 assignments to lawyers, there is very little real criticism of it.

They are dealing with a segment of society who find themselves very, very frustrated and in difficult positions and they are very, very prone to make complaints which in many cases are justifiable. Mr. Chairman, I am very, very pleased with the type of service provided. I want to pay a tribute to the staff at the legal-aid office, Mr. Bonnell and Mrs. Lambert and the girl who works there and, of course, to the profession for the great assistance which they have provided.

As I said before, when one hears the Attorney General talk about the trouble he has getting lawyers and when one sees the service we are providing, I think one can conclude what a wonderrul job the persons administering this programme have,to date, done. Mr. Chairman, in closing I want to thank the Attorney General hi1llllelf for his personal interest in the programme. I would like to thank the law society and assure the people that we will continue as far as possible to provide what I think to date has been a very, very good progrannne.

If, as my honourable friend from Bonavista North says, some of the people looking for legal aid - not everybody who requires a lawyer will receive legal aid. In the criminal side, yes but on civil matters, i.e., disputes regarding land, that is not covered. If a person should die and they want his will probated,that type of situation is not covered. I had a call from a fellow at the university. He sold his guitar to a friend for four dollars and he did not pay him so he wants legal-aid. Does the honourable gentleman know what I mean?

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page We have hundreds of that type of thing. Well that situation is not covered. Generally, it is easier to say what is not covered than what is covered on the civil side. The legal-aid programme is pro~ided throughout all Newfoundland and Labrador. Where the person qualifies, regardless of where he resides, he is entitled and will receive the services. Of course, every type of legal problem - if two 2 women or two neighbours have an argument over the backyard fence and one takes a crack at the other, which is a sUl!Dnary conviction matter, that is not covered.

Summary conviction matters and a great number of civil matters are not covered. All indictable offenses and matrimonial matters and things of this nature are. MR. NEARY: Is there any such thing as a little act of christian charity on the part of a lawyer any more? MR. AYLWARD: There have been about 1,500 acts of christian charity a year. Mr. Chairman, I thought we had a little deal going here this morning. The Hon. Member for Bell Island canvassed not alone his own caucus but another caucus, this honourable crowd over here, and he solicited a large amount of money to back him up on a walkathon tomorrow morning.

I said to him when he asked me to sign, "Now surely God this will not be a conflict of interest or held up as corruption or anything!" Bearing in mind that legal aid was the next topic, of course, I quickly signed up for five dollars. MR. NEARY: I did not get - MR. AYLWARD: I should have known better because there he is up to his old tricks again. I bet when I sit down he will be complaining about the escalating costs of legal fees. I am going to serve notice now ·on behalf of everyone over here that we shall revoke our undertakings to back him :i.f he should mention one word about legal fees.

I think I made it clear. I want you to back this up, Mr. Chairman, if it should come to a vote. I know we cannot take that vote here but we ti7B8

May 10, 1974 Tape no 1591 can take it in other quarters nearby here. I am going to serve notice on him now that if he should even mention one Page 3 word about legal fees and real estate transactions which are not, of course, covered by this programme, then, of course, we are going to - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. AYLWARD: what he said. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. AYLWARD: (Inaudible). No matter what Paul Hellyer said. We all know Is that not what one calls blackmail? We are going to have a vote in the co11Dnon room and we are going to revoke our backing. Mr. Chairman, seriously, I think there has been a great job done on this.

Without the co-operation of the lawyers, it could not have been successful. Of course, they are getting paid now but they are providing a service and it is not costing the people anything. I think they are entitled to it. I want again to thank the Attorney General for his interest in the programme. MR. THOMS: The honourable gentleman said that it was not costing the people anything but we are asking for $200,000 here. Indirectly, the people are paying anyway. I thank the member for his information.

I would like to ask him if there is any breakdown as to the number of cases within the boundaries of the City of St, John's and outside St. John's? I am under the impression that the bulk of this legal aid is in St. John's and very little of it is outside St. John's. This is why I brought up the question yesterday because one of my constituents who had a legitimate case and needed legal-aid was refused legal-aid. Now I can get the information for the gentleman if he so desire.

I would also like to ask him, i.e., if a young Newfoundlander has a car (I will put a case before him now as an example) and is in bed asleep and his father comes in and takes the car and goes off and has an accident and he in turn is fined

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page $1,500 or sued for $1,500, under these cases can he receive legal-aid~ There is such a case in my district at the present time. I do not know if it is in court. Maybe I am out of order but I am not mentioning any names nor dates. In such a case, can he receive legal-aid? He is unable himself to appear in court with a lawyer. If he does not _get legal-aid he is on his own. MR. AYLWARD: The father or the son? MR. THOMS: The son. MR. AYLWARD: What is the son charged with? MR. THOMS: He is sued for an amount of money; 4 MR. AYLWARD: No.

If it were an action against him for a civil matter, he ~,ould not. If the son were charged with stealing, say theft of a car or something of that nature, if it were a criminal matter he would qualify. If a person should owe money and be sued that type of case is not covered, small debts or even large debts. If it were a case - the discretion in the committee. If, i.e., the committee looked at it and they saw that this is a desperate situation, he is a family man and he has a family and there is something unjust about the whole thing.

There is a question here that the chap took the car, he went out and had an accident, he broke up the car and he is responsible for paying for it; he w~uld not qualify. MR. THOMS: MR. AYLWARD: MR. THOMS: MR. AYLWARD: How about the breakdown? I beg the honourable gentleman's pardon1 The cases within St. John's. The breakdown inside St. John's, I will have tte committee or the staff at the office to try to work on that for me. I hope to get that information. I will certainly give it to the honourable gentleman privately. Undoubtedly because the lawyers are in St. John's, a large number of cases come from St.

John's. Yesterday, i.e., at the office, they had about ten people interviewed. They have people from as far away at the Port au Port Peninsula. Geograi>hically, generally 5730

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page speaking, my honourable friend is right, most of them would come from around the St. John's Area and Corner Brook. That is only because people are closer to it. We get a lot of requests by mail and by telephone. Where one lives has nothing to do with 5 it. It is only that the lawyers are more accessible if one should live closer to them. Does the honourable gentleman follow me? I would say that the honourable gentleman's question that most of the aid is provided to people around St.

John's and around major centres, I cannot give him, statistically, what the answer is but when it is compiled I will be glad to send my honourable friend a copy of it. It should not be that way. If so, it is because there is just not that much crime in my honourable friend's district. If there are more in St. John's and more aid provided here it is because probably there are just not that number out there. MR. THOMS: Is the honourable gentleman confessing to the "Sin City?" Mr.

Chairman, I wonder could the honourable gentleman tell us something about these divorce cases, not about the cases themselves but I understand now that in the United States there is such a thing as a-do-it-yourself kit for divorce. Are there such kits in Newfoundland? MR, AYLWARD: There is an awful lot about these kits on the go but I think the kits are out in British Columbia. There is some outfit that produces these kits, I do not know of any such kits myself. I am not that familiar with the divorce laws. I have not practised any of it myself, I do not think there are any such kits in Newfoundland.

If a fellow wanted a kit, I imagine he could be directed to one. He should not need a kit if he were entitled to legal aid. The kit will be looked after in the kitty,under our programme. There is no need for a kit nor a kitty. Mr. Chairman, if you should find anyone in your district who has serious matrimonial problems and you feel that a continuation of the matrimonial home would be bad for the health of the children or either parties of the marriage, then they only :5791

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page 6 need go to a welfare officer or a doctor and get a letter and then write the legal-aid office and say, "If I continue to live with that chap, it will be .bad for my health." Believe you me, - they have no trouble getting these letters today from the doctors and from the welfare officers. If my honourable friend should have any such problems in his district, just send them to the welfare officer. He will give them a letter.and they write legal-aid, they would be entitled to legal--aid. I expect a great demand from Bonavista South in the next few weeks. MR.

THOMS: Bonavista South, Never from Bonavista North. MR. AYLWARD: Bonavista North, MR. GILLETTE: There is one little question that I would like to put to the Hon. Member from Placentia East and also the Chairman of the Legal-Aid Committee, Does this legal-aid also include advice over the telephone7 MR. AYLWARD: Yes. MR. GILLETTE: It does. I see, It does not necessarily mean an actual court case. MR. AYLWARD: No, no. MR. GILLETTE: Any legal advice, MR. AYLWARD: Any legal advice; that is right. MR. GILLETTE: Thank you very much! MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr.

Stagg) ; The motion is that Head 711-03-04 be increased from $150,000 to $225,000. Contrary "nay." Carried. Thos.e in favour "aye." MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on 03-05, I wonder if the minister could tell us exactly what goes? This is the Criminal Compensation Board. MR. HICKMAN: There were two cases last year, Mr. Chairman. The awards total.led $3,160.

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 159 l Page MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister. I wonder if he could tell us why the revised estimates show $20,000 to begin with and secondly, if two were granted, were there any applications that were not granted? If so, for what reason? MR. HICKMAN: My instructions are, Mr. Chairman, that these were the only two applications that came before the board last year. The total cost of operating the. Crimes ColllJ)ensation Board last year was $5,373. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Does that include the $3,100? That includes the $3,160.

Did the minister then say that it cost the boatd $2,000 to give out $3,000 in grants? MR. HICKMAN: Close to it. MR. ROBERTS: Could the minister tell us where the money went? That is astonishing. _MR. HICKMAN: Well the amount paid to the chairman and members of the board was $1,908. The amount paid for legal fees, these would be the fees paid to the counsel for the applicant, was $305 and the amount paid to two victims of the crime was $3,160. I understand that one was a particularly long-contested hearing. MR. ROBERTS: I find it interesting that it onlv cost $30~ in counsel's fees.

Let us assume there was a contested hearing, Mr. Chairman, although I do not know what is contested because these are not adversary proceedings as I understand them - MR. HICKMAN: We have to prove the amount they lost. 7 MR. ROBERTS: Yes but that is not an adversary proceeding, that is an ex parte application. Who contests it? The board is required to be satisfied and that is most presumably a prima facie subject to a rebuttal. Surely, this is not an adversary proceeding. MR. HICKMAN: No, it is not. MR. ROBERTS: It is ingenious to put it at its best for the 5793

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page 8 minister to say that the reason for the high cost of the board is that it was a long, lengthy hearing and it was contested. It may well have been long and lengthy. It is a small matter but there is an important principle here. Mr. Chairman, if counsel fees are only $305 for counsel for the applicant,and I am very pleased to hear that as part of the award under the scheme the board are prepared to award counsel's fees to the applicant's counsel, then it is hard to see how the board claims$1,900. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if the minister would undertake - it is an extremely good idea. It is the good samaritan principle being adopted. I am not sure that $3,100 is generous enough. I do not know the merits of the individual cases. I am not commenting on that but I find it passing strange that the damages - is damage the right word7 To put a less pejorative word on it, the compensation for the l·hole province only amounted to $3,100. The innocent victims of criminal acts (That ,is the scheme, Your Honour, is familiar with.

There may be one or two members of the collllllittee who are not) are able to claim against this fund and are able to get a measure of compensation for damages they may have sustained or injuries. It covers personal property as well, I believe. MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: To begin with, it is not widely known. It should be widely known. Twenty thousand dollars might not be adequate but the principle is there and we should not worry about the money in that sense. Mr.

Chairman, what concerns me is that we laid out $1,900 (That was the figure the minister gave me.) in payments to the three gentlemen who were on the board, one of whom was a civil servant - MR. HICKMAN: No. 5794

May 10, 1974 MR. ROBERTS: the board. MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS MR. HICKMAN: Tape no. 1591 Page 9 I thought Mr. McCarthy used to be chairman of No, the chairman is Mr. Herb Morgan. 'Who are the other members? Mr. Thomas O'Reily and Frank 0 1Dea. MR. ROBERTS: Three members bf the bar, One of them is a very senior and distinguished member of the bar. The other two are young, junior but equally distinguished. They claimed $1,900 in professional fees for giving out $3,100. That is a little like the tail wagging the dog.

I wonder if the time has not come when the minister might not thank those gentlemen, (I mean they have the right to be compensated for their services.) thank them most sincerely and say that Newfoundland cannot afford their services for this type of thing. The minister's officials stand available to give legal advice where such would be needed, although I do not see how many points of law would come up. It is not an adversary proceeding. We could take three citizens. The going rate is nothing like $1,900. Even royal co111Dissions do not get up to that level.

Possibly we could take these three gentlemen whom I am sure were appointed on a nonpartisan basis, as is the wont of all administrations in this type of thing. Thank them for their services. Perhaps we could give them a Confederation Medal, which costs twenty-five dollars, plus tax. Thank them very warmly and then say that the province no longer has need of their services. Then we could find three people, who perhaps for a much more modest fee would agree. Mr. Chairman, surely there is something wrong with a scheme in which $3,100 costs us over $2,000 in administration. I mean that really is wrong.

It really is too much. Surely, we could do without it. If these gentlemen, quite properly, insist upon professional remuneration, they are entitled to that but we do not need professionals. Surely any level-headed citizen could sit on this board. An applicant would come in and would say that he has been 5795

May 10, 1974 Tape no. 1591 Page 10 wronged.by a criminal act and wished to claim some daipages. I mean a Workmen's Compensation Board handles millions of dollars a year in a somewhat similar type of proceeding. I do not know what their ratio of benefits to claims is but I am sure it is not sixty dollars in benefits against forty dollars in administrative charges. That really is ridiculous. Medicare gets up to maybe eight or nine or ten per cent. Workmen's Compensation may be on that basis, not forty per cent. It is a small amount but it is an important principle. Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the minister would undertake to either defend it, if he feels that it is defensible or if not if he would undertake to look into it and see what should be done, MR. HICKMAN : MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: after he has? I certainly will. Certainly will what? Look into it. Will the minister undertake to report . back to us MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Okay! MR. GILLETTE: Mr. Chairman, I was interested in a remark made by my colleague, the Hon. Leader of the Opposition, when he said that this compensation can also cover property.

Now where would one.start or where would one end if this be the case with property? Could the minister give us an example of property damage? MR. HICKl-fAN: That is a pretty good question. For instance, if someone goes in and sets fire to one's house - there must be a conviction, convicted of arson - MIi.. ROBERTS: In a criminal act. MR. HICKMAN: In a criminal act.

If he be convicted of arson and there is insurance, obviously there should be no compensation It is conceivable that if a person came in and were convicted of arson and destroyed one's property as a result of that criminal act or breaking and entering, then one would qualify for compensation but there has to be a criminal act and a conviction 579ti

May 10, 1974 Tape 15q2 IB-1 following therefrom. I am glad I asked that question, 1'1r. Chairman, hecause it could leave the impression that property damage when the owner of that property is not aware of who damaged it - this is the impression that I got,to tell the truth,when I heard it at first - "!R. l>OllERTS: It is not an insurance gcheme. It is a criminal compensation scheme. MR. GILLF.TTE: Yes, it has to be criminal. On motion head 711-03-05 carried. "IR. ROI\EPTS: Inaudible. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: This is royal commissions. MR. ROBEPTS: Yes, I would think the minister probably has some information there.

MR. HICKMAN: Well, during interim supply I ~ave the list of the fees supplied. This year we have not got all the bills in from the Commission on Labrador. There is the Commission on Mineral Revenue under the chairmanship of Mr. Leonard Martin, Q.C. There is a commission looking into 1111 aspects of the St. John's Urban region study. There is also the Commission on Municipal Government that have not yet completed the:! r l,mrk. The Commission on Yunicipal Government in Newfoundland• under the chairmanship of Professor Hu,zh Whalen,has reported that they have all the consultants' reports before them.

This was April 17. They anticipated about. five more meetinp.s and they are aiming for June 15, 1974,for the presentation of their report. It was going to be May 15, the month before. '-IR. ROBEPTS: I thank the minister for the information. There are three or four royal commissions outstanding. first of all, is there anythin,z new on the Labrador Commission? We have been expecting the report hourly for the past month. Any word on when?

I understand the Esl<imo and Indian, "lontagnais, Naskaupi dialect translations will be tahled at the same time,the Premier said, but js there anything new on the Labrador Commission? ·' MR. HICK1'1AN: I am told that the resume as we know it,is a six r,737

May 10, 19 7l, Tape 1592 , volume report - that the resume of the report which in itself is about that thick is now completed and ready for prEsentation to cabinet. MR. ROBERTS: Why cannot the report be made public? MR. HICf 1'-IAN: Well, the hore was and the idea behind it was that when the report was tab l,ed, if the resume would come with it, it would make, at least for the general public - IR-2 MR. ROBEFTS: The general public are not going to read the resume. MR. HICKMAN: Well, I hope they will read the re'.~um{ 1'-IR. ROBERTS: They may read the press report or raybe the press resume'. MR. HICKMAN: Right!

Well, I am sure of one thing, the press will find it much easier resume of the report. to make a resume of the resume than a MR. RO!IEl!TS: I have more faith in the press than tha·t. One minute on television and they will be ahle to cover it accurately I am sure. MR. HICKMAN: So that our hope is to get the thing - I think cabinet should take a look at it first. MR·. ROBERTS: The resume? }!R. HICKMAN: Yes. I-IR. RO!IERTS, Although letting us have the report· then? MR. HICKt-fAN: And then table the report.

T think the honourable the Premier said here a few weeks ago; our intention is to table the whole works at the one time,hopefully while we are still sitting now. 1-'R. ROBERTS: Well, I appreciate the - I think, to take my tongue out of my cheek for a second, the government are doing the right thing to prepare a resume because these large reports are just never read. Indeed the authors of royal commission reports would do well to remember that after about the thirty-second page nobody gets - take the Neary Renort for example, I am sure nobody has read the Neary Report more than once. You know, the Mr.

Ed Neary - it was an unfortunate report. The authors of these large reports - the Neary Report happened to be a small one - would do well to remember that nobody reads them, that the most they do is serve as very useful compilations. For 5798

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-3 example, a very short report which I think is a very good one, Doctor Niller's Report on Nursing Education, is forty-two pages but it contains in it a whole new charter for education of nurses in Newfoundland . So, the government are doing the right thing to prepare a resume although I am always suspicious of resumis because somebody is doing the editing and I for one would want to see the full report to be able to see how valid the resume is. I do not see any reason why the government are holding up tabling the full report merely while they await the resume.

Could we not have the full report made available and then once the full report is made available, we will bear in mind there is a resume and that resume could be made much more publicly available. How many copies of the full report have been printed? I mean, is it in just a typed volume or has it been printed in copies? }!R. HICKMAN: It is printed similar to the Steel Commission Report, that type of printing and bound. MR. ROBERTS: Probably done down in Printing ~nd Photography. HR. HICKHAN: I think it was done down in Printing and Photography. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, could not a copy be laid on the table of the House this day? There is nothing confidential or secret. The administration have had a chance to look at it and have agreed to table it. It is not as if it were something that had to be milked out of them. It is not that sort of report as I understand it. I am serious. It could be a Magna Carta for Labrador or it could be the biggest pile of balderdash ever seen. It is one or the other. There are mixed views. Could it be tabled today or Monday? My colleague from Labrador North and I am sure tte gentleman from Labrador South, these two men would read it.

I am sure they would. The gentleman from Labrador West, I have no doubt has already read it. He may well be the only member of the cabinet to have read it in its entirety. Whether it is garbage and balderdash or whether it is the most brilliant piece of work or whether it is a combination, some members will read the full report. I will try to read it. There may be many others who do.

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-4 Can it be tabled? Why do we have to wait for a reFume? A resume is just some official,proba1'ly a fairly junior rank official in the way these things are done - well, I do not know who is doing it. I do not really care who is doing it. My normal experience has been that these things tend to get shuttled down from a deputy minister to a director to somebody fairly low down the scale. Why should we have to await that process?

Indeed when it comes to public distribution. if this report be one twentieth of what it should be, I would suggest to the adm:i.nistration that they might well try some means of disseminating it widely throughout particularly the Labrador. I do not want to bring up the subject - I would enjoy the debate but I suspect it is not the place for it, the much maligned Newfoundland Bulletin, something alonp; those lines that could go to every home in Labrador and say,"J,ook, here is this report.

Here is what they have recommended," not a one hundred nor cwo hundred page resume because nobody will read it but maybe a twenty­ four page booklet or a twelve page booklet. I mean, that is the sort of thing that should be done wit'!, this sort of thing because if this royal commission report done by Mr. Snowden is to have any value, 1 t has to have that value. To come back again, can the minister - hold on now, he is not with me. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, I am with the honourable member, l"R. ROBERTS: Okay. Why can it not be tBbled today? Must we await this resume?

We have been waiting it for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and maybe weeks and weeks and weeks more. There is considerable interest in it. There have been no meetings in Nakkovik or in Wabush passing resolutions that they want to see the Snowden Report but I kno1-, that my colleague, the r,entleman from Labrador North,who would be saying this if he were here but is today on his way to Goose Bay. He has other fish to fry, Your Honour might say. We are going to send another "Peddle''walking. The gentleman from Labrador North is interested. I have no idea where the gentleman from Labrador South GDOO

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-5 is. Probably off on a martinizing visit to his district or something. I know he too is interested. Why can it not be tabled today? I mean, if there are copies there is nothing secret in it, is there? We are not going to get another edited version. There is no thought of just printing the resume and no six volumes, is there? MR . i!IClc-lAN: No. No. There will be no edited version, Hr. Chairman. The decision of the administration which was announced in the House is that the r~sum~ and the report would be tabled as soon as cabinet , had an opportunity to look at the resume.

I would hope the cabinet will do that within the next two or three days or next six days. That is all I can say. l~,ile we are on that though - MR. ROBERTS: What is the resume? I mean, I know what the Premier said but it defies logic. Are they going to make sure the resume is accurate? MR. HICK}!AN: No. It is so that we will be hopefully sufficiently familar with the resume and with the report that we can answer knowledgeably any questions that are put in the House at the time of tabling. MR . ROBERTS: Surely each departmental minister will look at the

section affecting his department and the gentleman responsible for Labrador will be familar with the whole. MR. HICKNAN : Well, that is the situation with it. MR. ROBERTS: The Premier probably has not read past the introduction. MR . HICKMAN : One thing I might say while we are on it. The honourable gentleman was talking about what reports are read and what ones are not read. The report that we found the greatest demand for - it is encouraging to me - is the Steele Commission Report. HR. ROBERTS: It is a very good report. MR . RICKMAN: It is. I think we ordered 2,000 copies and we are down to three. MR.

ROBERTS: Where did 2,000 copies go? MR. RICKMAN: I think it was 2,0rJO. }faybe it was 1,000 or 1,500. MR. ROBF.RTS: It might have been 200. :.>801

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 MR. RICKMAN: Oh, no. The last request we had came from the law libraries in the United Kingdom. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, all the law school libraries. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, yes. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, well that explains it. rs-6 I find it interesting. The Steele Report I think is a good report. MR. HICKMAN: The municipalities have been after them. MR. ROBERTS: Sure. I mean, any public body sort of gets on the list to keep ones law school library or ones municipal element, to keep those up to date.

Sure: They get in CCR Clearing House Report'. that Newfoundland has had a royal commission on the magistracy and everybody sends off for it. It is a good report. I am not so much concerned with helping law school libraries as I am the people of Newfoundland. Anyway, I will have to give up on the Labrador Commission Report. I must say that it does defy logic. The cabinet have every right - in my view have always had t~e right, it is entirely a sensible thing - to receive a royal commission report and to study it before releasing it.

They will wish in releasing it to make a statement as to the government's position with respect to it. That would be in order. The reason why this one is being held up, you know, just does not make any sense. I suspect the truth is that nobody in the cabinet other than the gentleman from Labrador West has read the report and that is the reason why it is - somebody said, "Well, boys, we should not put it out now until we are sure of it." I am familar with that type of reasoning. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman has more faith in his colleagues than I do.

Some of them may well have read it. Some may even have understood it but many of them, Sir, have neither read nor understood. 'MR. HICKMAN: They promised me I could quiz them on it. ~- ROBERTS: Promised the honourable member he could quiz? That 5802

May 10, 1~74 Tape 1592 IB- 7 woultl be like "$64,000 Question" and those only covers the commissioner's fees. Now, on that point and this l>·ould apply equally to the Whalen Commission, the Snowden Commission - I <-1onder if the minister could table and if he does not have it if he could get it after lunch, I would 1:lke to know publicly how much the commissioners are being paid. I shall not accept the statement that they are being paid by the university. I believe they are but if they are being paid by the university, they are on a secondment hasi s :u,n we the people are reimbursing the university for it.

So , I would like to know if they are being paid by the university. What is being paid to the university in respect of them. Professor Whalen is a very estimable gentleman. He has written some very good works. He is head of the Political Science Department. Donald Snowden is head of Extension. He is on a leave of absence. I do not know what the arrangements are there. I would like to know how much they are being paid. Both these gentleman I understand are full-time. The other members of the co11111issicns , these t,m commissions - there are three in each case I believe - are part time.

I would assume - I would ask the minister to confirm or if not so,to set me straight on it - that the other commissioners, the Labrador one, Magistrate Goodyear who presumably is not being paid at all because he is being paid as a magistrate, Mrs. Rettidge and a Mrs. Snell, Mrs. Lawrence Snell, and on the municipal commission, Mr. Harnett, Mr. Tom Hopkins and Mr. Clarence Powell. I assume Mr. Powell is not being paid because as chairman of the BoP.rd of C01mnissioners of the Public Utilities Board he is a full-time public official. Perhaps the minister could speak on those points.

I assume the nonpublic official members are being paid a per diem rate. I should like to know what it is. I would like to know how much Mr. Ed Neary was paid for what has to be,with all respect, one of the most useless reports ever submitted to any government by any person. It has received

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-8 universal condemnation from all concerned. I am most interested to know the staff costs of these things. l have the impression and the minister on the interminable supply debate earlier more or less confirmed this, that the staff costs of the Snowden Conunission are mounting roughly to the point of the national debt. I would like to know what they are. I would like to know as well what the Whalen Commission is because I have been hearing the most horrendous stories from my academic friends about the great bonanza which royal commissions represent. There is a new mother lode.

It is called getting on a royal commission. I would like to know just what the staff costs are. Mr. Snowden at one stage was talking, as I recall it, of sending members of the House to Norway, to the Northwest Territories, to Southeast China and I know not where but l do not recall any of them going. If they went, they came back. Where we having sort of "See the World"? What sort of travel bills? These are the things that are relevant. Unfortunately royal commissions are neither fish nor fM1l. They do not tend to show up in the public accounts.

Maybe we should require every royal colllllission to state on page one in the appendix thereto, "The following are the costs incurred on this". This is public. It should be public. These things are set up to tell the public, set up to enquire into subjects for the public benefit. I think the infon,,ation should be made public. So, I would ask the minister to tell us what he could about them now. MR. HICK}f.A..1',: I will have to give a commitment,which I will, on both these cominissions, to give the committee the amount that is being paid to the members. MR. ROBERTS: And that is agreed to be paid. MR.

HICKMAN: And agreed to be paid. I have not that in front of me. On the Labrador Commission and this is not up to date, this is two months old - the staff salaries, $73,043; travelling, $50,689; Ryan's Searching Service, $10,591 - MR. ROBERTS: What is Tom Ryan? I mean, he is a good searcher but my God! Tom would give one title to St. John's on that. MR. RICKY.AN: Miscellaneous, office rents, phones, advertising, 5804

Nay 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-9 rent of equipment, $37,303. We have not received the bill yet from the university. My understanding is that ~r. Snowden stays within salary during his year or year--and-a--half leave of absense. Presumably now that he has gone back to work we will receive a bill from the university for his salary. MR. ROBERTS: It must have been agreed what he is to be paid. MR. HICKMAN: They were to be reimbursed his salary. MR. ROBERTS: What was agreed to be reimbursed. MR. HICKMAN: I do not know that. MR. ROBERTS: What is the salary? MR. HICKMAN: That I do not know. MR.

ROBERTS: We are entitled to that. MR.HICKMAN: Yes. That I will get. The Whalen Commission - a note here, "Whalen's fees, $5,000.' ' MR. ROBERTS: The man is full-time secondment to the Premier's office. MR. HICK1-1AN: There is something wrong with that. MR. ROBERTS: There bloody well is sonething wrong with itJ MR. HICKMAN: The other expenses: York University Research, $45,000; staff salaries, $36,690; travelling, $13,352; rent, office supplies, telephone, etc., etc., $15,627. MR. ROBERTS: I appreciate the position the minister is in. He is at best a conduit of information but these are staggering amounts.

These people are using government offices properly. Where are we racking up $15,000 in rentals on one connnission? On the Labrador CoDll!lission, $50,000 in travel? Now, I mean,they used government aircraft in Labrador properly. I mean, I have no complaint at all with that, better than some of the uses government aircraft are put to. Is there any check on this? One can go around the world a dozen times for less than that. I mean, who controls them? Who audits them? Is there any pre-check or is it just a matter of somebody waking up on the connnission one day and saying, "By God!

I think we should go and have a look at the system of local government with respect to Indian affairs and native affairs in Ubangi." The next thing we know four of them are gone,winging off to Ubangi if there be such a country. :3805

May 10, 1974 Tape 1592 IB-10 Is there any check on this? MR. HICIOI.AN: The only check, Mr, Chairman, that is imposed is that whenever the invoices are presented, I think it is Treasury Board or the Treasury Board secretariate examine the invoices to verify them. MR. ROBERTS: That is locking the barn door after the horse is gone. MR. HICKMAN: No. When one appoints a royal coll!lllission - there has been no change ever since we have had royal commission - MR. ROBERTS: There were no bills like that under any royal colllJllission we were - even the Warren Commission did excellent. MR. HICKMAN: Yes.

The Warren Conmission travelling account was not modest by any means. MR. ROBERTS: It was not $50,000. MR. RICIG!AN: No but it was probably the equivalent thereof by the dollars of that time because they travelled Europe,aa the honourable gentleman will remember.and North America. MR. ROBERTS: I would pay a lot more for the study of the education of Newfoundland than I would for - ~1R. HICIOI.AN: When we appoints a royal commission, we give them their terms of reference. The minute they start to try and restrict them they become very upset and say that they are taking away their independance. MR.

ROBERTS: They are taking away our money. MR. RICK11AN: I know. We shottld be able to decide the kind of studies that we should make, the comparative studies we should make. I have often said here in the Rouse before that I think we should have a royal commission to study royal commissions. MR. ROBERTS: What we should have is we should call tenders for royal commissions. MR. HlfK}f.AN: I will get that for the honourable member. MR. ROBERTS: All right. I appreciate the minister's position. I mean, he is responsible but he is not in a day-to-day sense. I am deadly serious. These things are getting out of hand.

I mean, I can tell the minister now 5806

1-iay 10, 1Q74 Tape 1593 (iorning) PK - 1 Don Snowden is a friend of mine and I have a great deal of respect for him as a man and as an individual and his ability and training. But the Snowden Royal Commission is a horror story. When you look at the expenses, $50,000 in travel is outrageous, just outrageous. Now I will say then, I will he quite prepared to say I am wrong if somehody can show me where $50,000 is validly i,one. But neor>le h,lVe heinr winp:ing around the world. They brought in I think 'Ir. Sherman '.'1cCurdv who is a very fine man. He was my high school principal.

He and my father were associated for many years. Dr. McCurdy was hroup.ht all the way from Aiberta to look at education in Lahrador. Now is there nobodv in Newfoundland or in Lahrador who could look at education? You know these thinp;s were $10,000 to Mr. Tom Rvan. Certainly it was validly earned,!t was not an inflated invoice at all. But, you know, unless that nroduces what amounts to a complete title survey of Labrador in which case it would be money well spent - you know, what are these things for?

Something is going to have to he done about them because royal commissions .1 ust so~t of winii: around and send the bill. The Whelan Commission,if the minister checks into it, would be the same thing. Fifteen thousand dollars for office rentals,ht1t I mean they use p.overnment offices. These people are down in the King George V Institute, are they not? That is the traditional roosting place of roval commissions. T mean that is a government huilding. I do not know what other rents may hf' involved. Persons for staff, secretaries, you know, it is - MR. !UCKMA.1: They must have their secretaries. MR.

ROBE!lTS: Well you kno•~, I would like to pet moTf'. The Premier and I are deen in ne~otiations ahout more Recretaries. They are pretty essential neopl" indeed hut somf' nf these, it 1 s not crooked, it is not inflated, it is just spendthirft. It real)v iR, there is no regard for it vou lrnm ••, I pould imagine Dr. "ill er' s hill for this is e,xtremPly modest. T vould imapine >1r. r.affery !>teele' s hill is equally modest. I an, not tal kinp- about professional fee,s • A lawver 's time is worth so many dollars an hour or so many dollars~ day and he is entitled to charge for that. ti801

!,fay 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Morning) PK - 2 I mean, I think that is reasonable but these other co111111itments, you know, I am not even speaking at this stap.e, there will be orrortunity to debate it in due course but you know these reports come in and they are usuallv filed away in Limbo; let us face it.

You know, the number of reforms that have come from royal commission°reports over the years are so few as to be, The Carter Commission, I am not only talking about 0ttawa, the Carter Commission, the Glasgow Commission, the Hall Commission on health services, you know, a magnificent document, a great social document but the advances that have come in health services at Ottawa are not - most of them are foreshadowed. indeed forecast, indeed advocated in the Hall Commission Report, but the motivating force is not the Hall Commission or not the report of that commission.

So if the minister would get me the information I should be p.rateful. All I can say to him is really it is something that should be looked into and some means is going to have to be found to control these c011D11issions because the Snowden Co1111!1ission and the Whelan CoT11111ission,from what I hear­ now I am subject to correction and I stress I do not have the data, that is why I am asking - from what I hear, Sir, they have turned into two of the great boondoggles of modern times in Newfoundland. There is nothing wrong. There is nothing illegal. There is nothing unlawful.

There is no one stealing money or getting money improperly but there certainly has not been what I would consider to be a prudent approach to the eXl)enditure of public funds. After all we are short of things for everything else in this country, You know we should proceed with due economy on these as well. Could the minister tell us whether there have been any bills received from Dr. Miller for that commission? MR. HICKMAN: Nb. MR. ROBERTS: For Mr. Steele? MR. HICKMAN: Yes. The total,Mr. Steele has been paid $25,197.90. MR. ROBERTS: That would include - MR.

HICK¥A.N: That would include - that was one of the cheapest coDD!lissions 5808

May 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Morning) PK - 3 we have had and the secretarial - MR. mB.f.PTS : And one of the best. MR . !llCl<l-lAN : He did not hire a secretarv for the commission or a counsel for the commission, he did it all himself. I think the onl y other cost we had from the Steele Commission was for - ~ . ROBERTS: Printing probably. MR . HICK.l-lAN: That is right Creative Printers $4,000.~8; $1,304.00 for the typing . MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Are there any other bills outstanding that we have not had? Not that I am aware of.

Professional gentlemen have a lackadaisical approach to their accounts as a rule. MR . RI CKMAN : I know. AN RON . ~(El-!BER: Inaudible. MR. RI CKl'tAN: No, that is all of the Steele Commission. l1R. ROBERTS: No not only the Steele r.ommission, I am talking about any other commissions? MR . RlCKHA! : 'MR. ROBERTS: No, only nr. Miller. That would be, I think, a modest one and money well spent. I do not quarrel with that. Has Doug Fraser's Commission finally been oaid for? MR . HICKMAN: Oh, yes that was paid for last vear. I have forgotten what it was. '1R. CHAlRl-lk~ (DUNPHY) : Shall 711-06 carry .

On motion 711-0~ carried. HR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 711-07 carry? '1R. ROBERTS: '.1R. BTCKMAN: What is legal assistance as opposed to legal aid, Sir? Legal assistance is in anticipation that I am going to have to retain some young practicing solicitors to do some work this year. You know, we have one - MR. ROBERTS: Well you have young Martin in Corner Brook doing prosecutions, which is a good thing. ' !"R HICKMAN: Yes, but apart from that, I do not want to talk about matters before the court but the Price - 5809

May 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (~otning) PK - 4 MR, ROBERTS: He cannot talk about the merits of the case but - MR, HICKMAN: No but the Price Newfoundland case. MR. ROBERTS: Who will be retained to act there, Jim Greene? MR. HICKMAN: No, Herb Morp,an has been retained. We are having an awful time retaining solicitors. The honourable gentleman for Placentia West mentioned something that I have tried to work out with the Law Society to retain lawyers practicing lawyers to act on criminal cases. Well I should not out that - I cannot say what is on my mind publicly but it is difficult to get - MR.

ROBERTS: Well I will say it, the profession will not. Lawyers are officers of the courts and if they will not work for regular fees, if they will not just do the work, the profession should be damned well ashamed of themselves and I say that as a member of the profession. MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: He is talking about the criminal cases. Yes, Yes, but I am talking about civil cases. MR. ROBERT!':: Well the criminal cases of the courts are aoparently in a shambles because we have not got enough prosecutors. MR. HICKMAN: Well! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: It is. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

HICKMAN: No, I have checked with both the magistrates down there and they do not confirm that. MR. ROBERTS: I am only going by what has been quoted. I do not practice but Mr. Collins has been quoted. MR. HICKMAN: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: Is it Mr. Collins who has been quoted? MR. HICKMAN: Yes, and Mr. Sparkes. I have done some enquiries on that because I know from the years when I was in practice, it works out to about every one postponement is asked for by council for the Crown.

It is generally for good reasons, where an investigation has not been completed and the Crown should never come to trial then on some of thesP serious cases unless the investigation has been totally completed. You 5810

!-lay 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Morning) PK - 5 owe that to the Crown, you owe it to the accused. l'!R. ROBERTS: is completed. MR. HICKMAN: Normally charges should not be laid unless an investigation You know, you do not hold up laying a charge in a murder case until you complete the investigation. MR. ROJ\ERTS: No that is true enough but it is not the murder cases we are talking about. MR. HICKMAN: Well these are the ones the complaints are coming about down in the court house. For every request there is for an adjournment by the Crown or a postponement, it works out to about four for counsel for the accused.

You know, if they want to play that game, we can play it but I would say that they will find it far more inconvenient than the Crown in a sense because there has to be a fair amount of good will between counsel in any case and as a rule they arrive at a date that is satisfactory to their clients and then get a date set by the magistrate but occasionally this does not happen. I do not want to repeat all of the stuff I said last night about the nroblems with it hut we anticipate some fairly heavy civil litigation this year too. One of them is the Price case that started back in Max Lane's day. MR.

ROBERTS: Watershed? MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICIO!AN: MR. ROBERTS: That is where Price are suing over Victoria Lake Yes, that is going to go to court now. Oh,sure it should. We are going to have to retain outside counsel to act. Again, you know I appreciate the minister's dile11111a and it really has got little to do with him one way or another. But let us move for a minute to this offshore Question in Ottawa where the Prime ~inistPr it turns out was misquoted by the press here. The Prime Minister did not say Ottawa wanted to go to court.

The Hansard, which is in my office if 1 need to get it, and I think he said the same thinp, on local T.V. Did not Mr. Rex Murphy interview him for "Here and Now" two or three nights ago? He said essentially the same thing on 5811

May 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Horninp;) PK - 6 the television I understand, I did not see the show my~elf but he did say the same thing, that it is not a matter of Ottawa wanting to go to court. Ottawa has offered to make a negotiated settlement with the province but apparently the province and Ottawa have not been able to come to terms on a negotiated settlement. Well that is fair enough. A negotiated settlement implies a~reement and if there is no a~reement there is no settlement. Where does the matter now stand?

I could brinp; it well within the scope of 711-03-07 ( I see Your Honour is looking somewhat quizzical)by sayinr;, .. Is there some money in here for legal assistance?" Because obviously outside council, I say obviously, I am not implying that the minister's staff are not thoroughly able to deal with .it but if they deal with us they will not be dealing with something else. This, I would think, would be a major piece of work and to my knowledge we have nobody in Newfoundland other than Mr.

Cabot Martin, a gentleman who has great opinions which may or may not be founded on legal fact but we know there is no member of the Bar other than Mr. Martin who has made any real study in this and I understand there are people in Ottawa who have been involved in this and probably in the Law Schools. It is a constitutional as well as a legal Question. But where do we now stand? The Premier told us that he, and apparently the Prime Minister's statement in reply to a question by Mr. Boddin who is the member for one of the Calgary seats out west.

The Prime Minister's statement was made while the Premier's letter was in the mail to Ottawa. So the Prime Minister when he made the statement obviously was not aware of the province's latest position on this. Well that is well and good. What is the province~s latest position? And what is our position? Not a matter I feel that I need be hesitant asking about.: It is a very public matter. It has come up a number of times. Would the minister table a letter or if he does not want to table correspondence would he undertake to make a statement? Where do we stand on this?

Are we going to end up before the Supreme Court of Canada on a reference? I mean it will not he litigation as such, it will he a 5812

May 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Morning) PK - 7 reference I assume. If so, you know, are tenns now going ahead? Who will be acting for us? All this sort of thing! What are they? I am not asking for a lengthly disseration what is our case? What are we seeking? Are we seeking complete ownership? Are we negotiating a sharing deal? You know there are a number of possibilities in this. Are we concerned about management? Is that our sole concern? We are obviously concerned about it. What is the position? MR. HICKMAN: I am not in a position to give a statement, Mr.

Chairman, on what the total position of the province is on this case. We, and I want to use my words guardedly because I understand negotiations are still going on between them, I suspect yesterday, I do not kn01t but I suspect yesterday between the Prime Minister and the Premier. The ~'<>rk and the negotiations have been carried on primarily between the heads of the two governments and between the Minister of Mines in Ottawa, Mr. Macdonald,and our Minister of Mines and Energy here. So I am not in possession of all the details.

It has been said on several occasions publicly that we, and indeed I think the other Atlantic Provinces share our views but probably not to the same extent, are most apprehensive over the rather cavalier attitude that was adopted by Ottawa towards granting offshore licences. MR. ROBERTS: It began back in 1961, did it not? MR.

HICKHAN: Back in the early 1960's, I suspect that nobody took the thing seriously anyway and said,"lf you want to go out and speed around the Grand Hanks and the Hamilton Bank, you can go to it but you are not going to find anything out there.' Apart altogether from the question of ownership, it is the belief of the government that there should be some fairly rigid restrictions and very lim1.ted licences.

What I mean by "limited licences", licences to very limited areas. 'As a orovincial government we feel that if we have the kind of jurisdiction we think we should have, that we can then impose upon those who are doing the exploration off our shores an obligation to spend a great deal of money on shore. Because I feel if it be · left up to the oil comnanies to decide where they are going to 5813

May 10, 1974 Tape 1593 (Morning) PK - 8 get their rigs repaired or where they are going to get their small boats re-paired, where they are going to get their supplies, the real beneficiary as far as Eastern Canada is concerned, is going to be Halifax and not some port in Newfoundland. Last week I saw that. I r;uess it was the ''Sedico J" coming into Halifax for the annual refit. I do not know but maybe she is too big to be refitted in Newfoundland, I do not know but certainly the oil companies are under no obligation right now to spend a nickel in Newfoundland.

They are spending money here.I am told there is quite a community - MR. ROBERTS: I am told they have driven the rent scales for large houses rates sky-high. MR. HICKMAN: Around St. John's. I have vet to meet a person who is employed on the oil rig but other people have. I am told there are quite a few here. Row far the province is prepared to go. Obviously we would be much happier to negotiate a settlement with the Government of Canada. How far we are prepared to go? I do not think it would be in the public interest even if I had the facts to say so at this time.

As far as our legal position is concerned, we have taken advice from a constitutional lawyer,in either Ottawa or Toronto, whose name escapes me - (Does the honourable gentleman remember his name?) Then a Mr. Jennings - MR. ROBERTS: Peter Jennings1 MR. RICKMAN: Ivor Jennings. r-m. ROBERTS: Ivor Jennings. MR. HICKMAN: Ivor Jennings in Cambridge and there is a man in Harvard - MR. ROBERTS: That is Sir Ivor Jennin11:s. MR. HICKMAN: Right, Sir Ivor. MR. ROBERTS: He is a great expert on parliament. MR. HICK!1AN: Yes, but he is also an expert on - MR. ROBERTS: He has a shelf of books on parliament. MR. HICKMAN: Yes.

There is a gentleman in not Harvard at Yale who has done some opinions for us. I cannot recall their names. 5814

May 10·, 197i, Tape 1593 (Morning) PT< - ~ MR. RORERTS: The only other question 1 would ask on this is one that, l suspect it is the right olace. ~r. Robinette.what was he paid for the infam ous 09inion where t,e told the government they had no crimi nal case a gainst the alleged owners of certain buildings rented to the liquor authorities? HR. HTCKl-'AN: I have to confess I gave that last year so I did not hr ing it along this vear. MR. RORF.RTS: Well okay then the bill, no further hills have been received in connection therewith? MR. HICKMAN: 1-iR . ROBERTS: No, no, no.

Ts the minister i oin$t to tahle the oninion now or '-'ill he ~•ait until ,..e come into office to make it oul>lic? 'IR. CllAIB NAN (DUNPHY): Shall 03-07 carried? On motion nJ-07 carried. MR . CllAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall nJ- 08 cany? !!JI. llf:ARY: Si r, Oh that is just a token vote. /\N no~. ~f.R : lnaudihle. MR. NF.ARY: This is one of the rinister's net projects, Sir. I wonder if the minis ter could tell us what he exoects under this headin g . Tt is only a token vot e , hut - A~ HON • ~l'f.l-fflEP.: Inaudihle. MR . NF.ARY: Oh, no, ic is sso,noo. 'IR. HICIOIAf!: No , no , SJ 00 . nn . MR.

NF.ARY: fine hundred dollars, a token vote . '9L HIC¥.!'1.AN: That is not ouite accurate. Last year we had a vote of $15,rtOCl . '1R. nEARY__;_ ¥es. MR. H.IC101AN: We could not spend it. MR. NF.ARY: I see. 'IR . IUOO!AN: Because, you know there is no one more f rustrated than I am t rying to get t his Family 6u1dance 1\ct • It took us yea rs to decide to bring it before t he House. As t he honourable r.entleman will recall. had<

?-fay 10, 1974 Tane 1593 (Morning) PK - 10 in 1968 I wanted to bring it in and could never get on with it. Then we brought it in. The whole report envisages a great deal of local participation by various agencies. Our grant of $15,000 was designed to sort of get it off the ground. I have made three or four tries. Now the last one is a Mr. Hawkins and someone else. I was going to say some Mental Health Association has shown some interest. I have asked them if they will try and get if off the ground.

We put in a token vote because if we can get it off the ground, then we have the authority to give them the money but if we did not spend it last year there is no point in putting in the same amount this year. MR. NEARY: I presume the minister is talking about implementing the recommendations of the Gushue Royal Commission. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, that is right. MR. NEARY: 1 wonder if the minister could tell us what kind of problems he is encountering because - MR. HICKMAN: I cannot get the volunteers. 'MR. NEARY: Is it getting the volunteer workers or? MR.

HICKMAN: The voluntary participation, the people, the conmunity involved. MR. NEARY: But who is looking after it in the minister's department? Does the minister have this responsibility assigned to someone? MR. HICKMAN: Yes, Mrs. Noonan. MR. NEARY: To Mrs.? MR. HICKMAN: Noonan. MR. NEARY: Mrs. Noonan who is also one of the legal counsels in the minister's office. MR. HICRMAN: Yes. And who was also one of t~e researchers. In fact I believe that

Chapter was done by her for the Gushue Report. MR. NEARY: Yes, she did play a major

part I think and she specializes in this field I believe. So the problems really are getting the co-operation of the volunteer organizations, is this right? MR. HICKJ#AN: Yes. You almost think you have them and then you do not. 5816

l-lay 10, 1974 Tape 15~3 (Morni-nR) PK - 11 HR. NEARY: But the minister i ndicat ed last year that his department was goinR to hire a number of eJtPer t ROcial counsellors, ~raduates of universities. :-m. R!CKJ'IAN: Yes. MR . NF.ARY: He will remember t hat I made the point that it tnAJI confl ict wi t h the Minis ter of Rehabilftation and Recreation in his depa rtment or the Depart ment o f Social Services. Sut there is no i ntention of buildinR uo a staff in t hat department . MR . HICIQ-l~N: No. 'IR. NEA'lY: It is purel y a voluntaey thinR. MR. HICKMAN: Yes. HR.

NF.ARY: Hell ROOd luck to him , that is all I can say. r'R. CHAIRMAN (DUNPRY): Shal l 03- 08 car ry? On motio n 03-08 carried. On motio n 03-09 carri.rd. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 03-10 carry? MR. NEARY: ~r. Chairman, I pre sume this is in connection with the act for bnrri.nR Lhe nolicemen from moonlii:r,ht inR . Ts this 1.•hat thiia is all about? Would the minister care to explain this? '4R. Hl CK'IAN: Yes. 'l'hi s Act, ;•r . Chairman, =s oassed in l'l 70 and was not oroclaim ed becau se we did not have the r erulations .

What it 1.s desiRned to do, it is a ROOd act, it is a uniform act it had nothin R to do with moonliRhtinr or nothi.nR to do wit h the Newfoundland r.onstabu lar y or 11nyone else , It Rives us the rlr.ht t o ser tha t anyone who is actin.P, as a security Ruard, you know, he has t o he bonded, he haa to be of good character, he has t o be - oh there i~ a lon~ fo rm set fort h in the regul ations.and he pays a lice nci nit

May 10, 1974 Tape 1594 (Morning) PK - 1 fee when he is licenced. What we do not want is, you know, until this Act was proclaimed I could go do,m and stick my name up as a security guard. Now I would be no more competent to act as a security guard and would he r,iven all kinds of responsibility and right of access to all sorts of buildings unhonded and everything else. This is what this is designed to do. Some how or other this was misinterpreted as meaning it had something to do with the Newfoundland Constabulary but it did not. M:R. NEARY: lfr.

Chairman , would the minister then indicate if these Private investigators and security guards have to undergo any training before they are issued a licence or a pennit or whatever :It ii;? MR. HICKMAN: They do not undergo training. About the only thing we could do is make sure they are bonded and that they are physically fit and that sort of thing. MR. NEARY: In order words,there is really no difference now except they have to register with the minister's department. That is the only difference? Pay a couple of dollars. MR. HICKMAN: 'MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: There is no training course or anything like that?

No, Sir. MR. NEARY: To be bonded, okay. ~- CHAIRMAN (PUNPHY): Shall 03-10 carry? On motion 03-10 carried. On motion 03-11 through 03-12 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 03-13 carry? MR. NEARY: A breakdown of this one, Mr. Chairman. MR. RICKMAN: I am very proud of that vote, I see my friend sitting there who cannot say anything responsible, I know that he is proud of it too.

That money is going to be used to enable the band of the Newfoundland Constabulary to give concerts around the province and at the same time I believe that somebody is going to be prudent enough out of that vote to find some money to enable them to buy some new instruments. 5818

May 10, 1974 Tape 1594 (Morning) PK - 2 The Newfoundland Constabulary about three years apo decided to reactive the constabulary band which had heen in mothballs for, well I cannct remember, I have been oracticing law for twenty-five years, I cannot remember the band until it was resurrected two or three years ~go. There is a band master, Mr. Osmond. I think it is Osmond or Osbourne - Osmond,who has done an excellent joh and he for a very modest sum has been training the band. Honourable gentlemen will recall that last year at Christmas the constabularv band performed on television.

I was told by the network that it was one of the few demands they had from the viewers throughout the province for a repeat oerformance. Out of that vote will come, I hope, a well equipped band and give Newfoundlanders everywhere a chance to look at them. I commend the members of the constabulary who are memhers of the hand because they have agreed quite voluntarily to adjust their annual leave

schedule in order to allow the band to travel during the summer months. That is what the $14,000 is for. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): I hope the honourable member agrees. Shall 03-13 carry? ~n motion 03-13 carried. On motion Head VII - Justice, carried, HEAD XIX .:.. ~IUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING HON. H. R. V. FARLE (~I INISTER OF MUNICIPAL ArFAI'RS AND ROUSING): Mr. Chairman in introducing my estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing I would just like to make a few introductory remarks.

It is nuite nossible that the Department of ~unicipal Affairs is one of the busiest in all of thP provincial government. It is also one of the most sensitive to nuhlic opinion because pe are dealing directly with the actual living conditions of oeonle in large and small places throughout the whole province. I should also like to say that it never fails to amaze me that we get so many peonle throughout the province serving on nrunicipal councils and putting in a lot of time, a lot of valuable time and giving a lot of good advice for nothing at all. There is nothing in which the ~819

~lay 1n, l<l74 Taoe 1594 (~orninp.) PK - 3 government gP.ts better value than it does from the trork and efforts of municipal councils throup.hout the nrovince. I would like to indicate a deep debt of gratitude to these people who do so much voluntary work for the province and very often I mjght say, Mr. Chajrman, with little or no thanks and more than often a great deal of criticism for what they are trying to do for their settlements. Now in my deoartment there are several sections of it which are of particular importance to the House and to the neople of Newfoundland.

I would like to mention just a few of the hea,,ier ones and to make some comment on them. Probably the most contentious and most troublesome thing coming under my department at the present time is the Question of water and sewerage throur,hout the whole province. At the moment I think I havP. on my desk approximately eighty­ two aoplications from different settlements reQuesting and almost demanding water and sewerage facilities.

The fact is that in many of these places they have reached the stage where they are living in desperate pollution, drinkinr, water in many cases is not fit for human consumption and has to be boiled before using and in other places there is a dire shortage of drinking water, not to mention the terrific contaminatjon that has taken olace in many places sometimes through the supply of an adeQuate amount of water which in turn creates a tremendous sewerage disposal problem.

It is a known fact that if we would service a community and give it only water and people use water much more freely, we automatically have to dispose of more sewerage and if they have not the proner facilities, which in most cases they have not, the whole communitv in many cases becomes completely contaminated and we have this condition to deal with in very many places. As I said there are pending at the present time approximately eighty-two applications in our department for this service and these vary from probably a minimum cost of $200,000 for an installation up to something over $2 million to $3 million.

Conservatively estimating G820

M..ay 10, 1974 Tape 1594 (Morning) PK - 4 at the present time, I would think we have over $30 million worth of work that urgently needs to be done. There is not that amount in the budget in comparison. Now when you look at my budget you do not actually see what is orovided for water and sewerage because most members understand that these are done by means of financing, in the first case, with hanks.

The government tive guarantees usually on a five year period where the community can go and borrow from a h'Bilk and this can be paid off over the guarantee and then bonds are issued and the repayment is put on probably a forty year bond issue term. So that actually in my estimates there is nothing at all for water and sewerage systems. This will be done under the usual method of guarantees to communities. The amounts as you see them in there, I will explain of course how they are used and what they are used for.

At the moment we have systems which we are committed to continue, totalling a value of nearly $6 million. These are projects which are partly underway, partly finished and which we are committed to finish hopefullv this vear or next year. So that immediately takes a big hite out of what we can do in the current year. Now tied with this there is also our programme,which this government reinstituted,of fifty/fifty cost shariPg basis in ~aving in communities. You will recall that the former government had this programme for some years and they cancelled it out, I think in 1967.

This government reinstated it and for the past couple of years we have been helping communities on the basis of a shared cost of fifty/fifty on street naving within communities. Now this does not by anv means take care of the tremendous number of problems there are in local roads within communities. This is an on-going and very serious nroblem with us.

It comes down to simnly this,that the majority of municipalities or small towns or community councils or local improvement districts simply do not have enough revenue or have no way of generating enough revenue to take care of the maintenance, snowclearing etc. on their local roads, roads within the community. 5821

~~ay 10, 1974 Tape 1594 (Horninr,) PK - 5 One of the things which have happened, on the formula of paying so much per head for the peonle in these communities it develops as a very unfair method because vou have communities with comparatively small population hut a long mileage of road or I say a comparatively large nopulation with a long milear.:e of road that are getting a very small r,rant. You have other places where a large population is getting a tremendous grant. So based on the head count and that type of payment it is not fair.

I feel that we will have to and we are seriously studying this idea of bringing in a svstem of paying for mileage covered. It is a much fairer ;md equitable way to do things. As I say,my collaague,the Minister of Transportation and Com1nunica! ions, and myself have this under very careful study at the moment and we are coming up to r,overnment with some strong recommendations on it.

This problem of dealing with local roads within the communities is particularly pertinent in unincorporated communities also because there again in most areas the Department of Transportation and Communications, possibly through lack of eouipment, certainly through the number of roads to he done,cannot possibly give them the attention that they should get. So this in itself, I am just mentioning it by the way,is a very, very troublesome and difficult problem and I might say a very expensive one which we have to deal with. Under my department there is a Division of Development Control.

This is the protected roads and the building and development control throughout the province. This is probably the most contentious division that I have to deal with because nobody, I sav ''Nobody" can he convinced as a rule that if there application be turned down they should not he piven permission to build. All kinds of arguments can be put up by the person who has been turned down as to why he should be allowed to build in a certain place.

If his father has had that land for one hundred years and the family has lived on it for generations, it is wide opened fields, it appears to him to be something that can be easily taken care off: he see no reason at all why he should be turned down. 5822

May 10, 1974 Tape 1594 (Morning) PK - 6 Now I find that there are not a great many really contentious cases, Of the numbers that we handle, somewhat less than I think five per cent develop into really contentious cases but these are contentious cases. There is no way that you can persuade people that they are in the wrong. For that purpose we have an appeal board wherein if the departments turn down an application this can then go to an appeal board of independent people; they will decide if the ruling of the departments is correct.

Incidentally I might say it is not just my department that deals with these, ~'hen you are talking about a building, it has to undergo inspection by health authorities to see that there is no danger of creatin~ pollution or anything of that nature. It also has to go through Transportation and Communications to see that it does not create a traffic hazard in the area where it is being built or any other danr.er to the public, Of course, 1t has to p.o through the Environment Control to see that it is not going to affect that in any way.

But the final decision,after all that is done.does rest with my department and we are the people who hear the flak for it. Relieve me there 1s a lot of flak, there is a lot of comnlaint :In many ways. What I am doing at the present time, I have set un an interdepart­ mental committee of top civil servants to discuss with my Director of nevelonment Control, ~r. non ~yan,to see if there is any need of changing our re!(ulations. to ,;ee if there is anythinr we can do to perhaps ease up on them somewhat or if not ease up on thel'l if it is essential that we keen them as they are.

I am hopeful that that committee would also he in a position as time goes on to deal with the more contentious cases before they go to an anpeal board, to see if there is any .iustif:fcation at all for granting a permit. This committee is meeting now and shortly I hope will come up with some recommendations to me. Rut I might say in passing that in spite of the very heavy burden of criticism that that dettsion comes in for, it is one of the most essential in our province. We have a good record in Newfoundland, an excellent record of huildin!( control. In manv other places throughout G823

l"ay 10, 1974 Tane 1594 (Morning) PK - 7 Canada they are envious of the fact that we have been able here to keep unslightly things off the highways or hazardous buildings off the highways and this sort of thing. Pe have done a good job. That d_ivision has done an excellent job in spite of its criticism. One of the most notable things in this province as compared with many other nrovinces of Canada is the way in which they have controlled highway signs. You can go in many parts of Canada where the highways are a mass of,forest of signs cutting out all scenic value and making it a most unattractive area.

Well this division has been very active in controlling unwanted highway signs. Here again, when some chap sets up a motel or a tourist establishment or. something like that he cannot be told, he will not see the reason why he cannot put up all the signs he wants to out on the road somewhere. It is a very difficult and contentious problem. Of cause, you have to look at it from a service standpoint.

The tourists coming into the country 111Ust be able to know where these places are located so that they can estimate what time they will get there, what sort of service is available and what generally is available to them. Along these lines the director of the division has come up to me with suggestions of particular places on the highwav where we can accumulate signs for a particular area so that tourists oi anybody who is not familiar with the area can come in and stop and see what is available in that area and where to go. I think this is an excellent idea.

It is Quite likely that we will be acting on it in the near future. The other big operation in my department, of course, is the housing problem. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, the St. John's Housing Corporation and the ~etro Board, the St. John's Metro Board all report to me. While I have mentioned in water and sewer and develonment control there are some vecy contentious subjects, at the present time with the rapid accelerating cost of ho111es to all our people I do not think there is anything which comes in for more criticism and more demand than the whole question of housing. G824

May 10, 1Q74 Tape 1594 (Morning) PK - 8 Actually our programme for this year was announced in the Budget but very hriefly dealt with,as it had to be in a budget. I would just like to read some further comments on the housing pro!';ramme - perhaps to clarify it somewhat. The housing progr8llDlle presented in this year's Budget,generally outlined on page 21.is the first attempt in this province to institute a complete housing programme.

I might hasten to add, however, that the basic programme outlined does not cover the total housing needs of the province but it does go a long way towards providing housing for our people,based on subsidized payments which were intended to be at such a level that they could afford to nay. Of course, the hig factor which will affect the ability to pay is the high cost of housing. It had reached the point where it is impossible for the average citizen to meet such P. cost.

There are two other areas which we have not yet been able to enter but hopefully this can be forthcoming as soon as we can get agreements with the federal government rep:arding cost. These are in the rehabilitation of older homes on a provincewide basis and a land subsidy Programme, Both of these I will deal 'With later. Returning to the nrogramme indicated in the Budget Speech,there are five main items. As a matter of fact, each is a programme in itself and will make a major contribution to housing starts not only for this year hut over the long term .

The first programme is that of a banking of land sufficient for further development. Here we see during the next four years the need to obtain land sufficient for say a t'Wcnty year period. The provision of these lands under one ownership is of course one which will have to be handled with the greatest care because of the sneculative nature of such a orogramme. The Housing Cornoration who will be handling this "'111 use discretion at all times so that on one hand we are not paying highly speculative prices and the other hand are not harming the individual landowner.

Two: We have embarked on an all-embracing programme to develop serviced residential land sufficient for 3,000 hous:lnp; units per year for the next four years. I might say that in the case of this _ 5925

May 10, 1974 Tape 1595 IB-1 fiscal year, 1974-1975. The Housing Corporation has advanced its plans to the stage where we can confidentially look to meeting our goal for this year. These servicing programmes have a great deal of flexibility in that they not only relate to the usual federal provincial, seventy­ five, twenty-five per cent agreement but to loans from the federal government to the province, In addition to direct lendin~ bv the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation from provincial funds to municipalities who can develop lots on their own.

In the large areas of course we use federal funds but in certain cases where it is more practical to service say ten or twenty lots per year and where the municipality is capable of doing so, we work out financial arrangements with them so they can do the work. On the other hand, there are areas where the housing corporation handles the work directly. Again in the larger projects, the housing corporation borrows from the federal government on a ninety - ten loan arrangement or on a seventy-five - twenty-five per cent split.

Needless for me to say that apart from the social benefits from such projects we are able to draw considerable money into the province,creating additional employment and all the attendant benefits. We also intend a crash programme to build or require an additional 1, 500 subsidized housing units. These are intended for the larger centers. The cost of housing of this nature is one that is causing the province and the federal government very considerable concern. It might be added at this point that in the larger centers outside St.

John's, the prices which we have been quoted recently are so beyond our ability to meet that we are now reaasessing the effect of these costs. In St. John's hopefully we can still meet the costs and hope that the builders will respond to the efforts of the federal, provincial partnership in their tender and proposal calls. Subsidized rental housing is becoming less than the most efficient methods of housing people. On the other hand, in the larger eenters it will meet a need. We realize that some very considerable number of units ,·ill have to be built, hence the 1 , 500 that I mentioned. 5826 .. ' . "

May 10, 1974 Tape 1595 IB-2 In regard to the housing for small communities in rural areas,we were this year able to negotiate with the federal government an agreement based on a seventy-five - twenty-five per cent cost sharing arrangement whereby we can finance the construction of up to 700 units in Newfoundland this year. Bearing in mind the inherent nature of our society in that home ownership is a basis of family security, this programme is intended to encourage the continuation of housing on a home ownership basis.

The new concept of course is that we will subsidize the mortgage payments for people who are paying off their homes. The subsidy in regard to this agreement airounts to a reduction in interest rate in the first instance to a minimum which the partnership can carry. In addition we plan to make cash subsidy payments up to $400 a year. The federal government has agreed to a one year pilot project. We hope that by the end of this year the programme will have proven so successful that it will be continued. Incidentally, Mr.

Chairman, this is the programme which I have mentioned a number of times under which last year we helped build 414 h~uses. This year it has now been brought up to 700 houses. The amounts which can be lent have been substantially increased from $9,000 last year up to about $17,500 this year. I think the committee will realize that under today's costs $9,000 may not go very far in the construction of a home.

Probably the basic concept of a programme of this nature is that it is possible for any family to acquire a home regardless of their income if in the first instance they are rreparerl to accept the minimum housing but based on National Housing Act standards. On the other hand they are prepared to make other contributions in the way of labour, land and probably certain materials.

The fifth programme we indicated was to institute provincial subsidies to match federal subsidies towards the payment of mortgeges on homes in any part of the province ~here the federal government is making the money available directly, more particularly as it could apply to the larger centers. For example, CMHC under their assisted home ownership plan at the appropriate interest rate will also contribute 5827

. t May 10, 1974 Tape 1595 IB-3 up to $300 a year in subsidies towards mortgage payments. The province intends to match the federal contribution by making a further $300 available towards mortgage payments, that is a total of $600 will be available all together, $600 per year. Here again we are subsidizing home ownership. This is a concept which both governments I know have entered into with a certain degree of trepidation. On the other hand, there is no comparison in the cost. to both governments and the sat·isfaction to the individual if such a progra)111lle be compared to subsidized rental units.

I mentioned earlier that there are two areas where the government is concerned and I am personally very concerned where we have not been able to meet what are great needs. I refer in the first instance to the making available of money for rehabilitation on a provincewide basis. In the second instance, the subsidization of serviced land. In regards to money for rehabilitation, the benefits of the programme would be to enable individuals to retain their present home and renovate it to an acceptable standard. In this regard, the cost to house the family would be less.

The psychological benefits of the retention of a family home would be evident and there would be a considerable saving on the valuable resources of the province by the use of the older material which is at present available. The problem faced is the great cost involved. I use the word rehabilitation because really our goal must always be to provide a housing unit that is adequate for a family as compared to repairinF shacks that in the end would not constitute good housing and in a very short time would require further expenditures. The problem however is being worked on very actively.

I feel that the time is not far off when we will be able to announce a worth-while programme in this regard. In regard to land subsidy, I should first say that this description is really inadequate. What we are really working on and dev~loping is a land strategy programme for the province. In other words, the subsidization of land in itself is not sufficient as such 5828

May HJ, 1974 Tape 1595 IB-4 and must be tied in with a programme of subsidies related first to serviced land and secondly to specific areas so that we can encourage a reasonable development pattern