Manitoba Hansard — 15 June 1989 (Sitting 20, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-20

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 15, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the First Qu arterly Report, being to the end of March 31, 1989, for the Mani toba Telephone System. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney Gener al): In accordance with the provisi ons of Rule 65, the sequence for consideration of the Estimates of � the various Government departments by each

section ' of the Committee of Supply has been established, agreed to by the Oppo sition House Leader (Mr. Alcock) and myself. I will table that sequence now. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services ): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I would like to inform the Members of the Assembly tha t I have announc ed today new funding in my department's 1989-90 budget which will extend and improve services to assist victims of child abuse and their families.

This increased support, being directed to treatment services and trai ning programs, is part of our Government's continuing response to recommendations made in the 1987 Winnipeg Child Abuse Review. These initia tives are in keeping with needs identified in the review for additional and better co-ordinated treatment resources for abused children and their familie s. * (13 35) The new funding will be allocated to three areas. The first of these is support for a wide range of community based Child Sexual Abuse Treatment Programs to be phased in over three years.

In this fiscal year, $250,0 00 will be available to enable existing treatment centres to initiate, develop and operate programs. The new funding will ini tially be applied to grants or agencies operating successful pilot projects and to implement a joint proposal by Winnipeg treatment agencies. As well, the Psychological Services Centre at the University of Mani toba will receive $ 120,000 to conduct a Child Abuse Treatment Services Training Program tor 20 to 25 students in the Bachelor and Master of Social Work Programs and M.A. and Ph.D. Programs in clinical psychology.

As part of their trai ning, the students will be involved in counselling clients of Winni peg Child and Family Service agencies. As well, staff with these agencies will receive training as part of new services. 597 Further, my department is assuming funding for a support program for families whose children have been victims of third-party sexual abuse. The Chi ldren's Home of Winn ipeg will receive a $ 190,0QO annual grant to ope rate this program which was developed in response to a growing need to help victims and their families.

In the past, the program was supported on a demonstration basis by the Core Area Initia tive. The prevention of child abuse and the provision of effective therapeutic treatment for children already victimized are key to enabling many Manitoba children to develop and enjoy healthy and productive lives. This is a very necessary and worthwhile investment in our future. In the days ahead, Mr. Speaker, I will be making further announcements on our Government's increasing support for the protection and treatment of children and women who have been or may be in abusive situations.

This is an area which continues to be a great concern to our Government and to which we are responding. Thank you. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, we are pleased to hear today of the announcement from the Min ister of Family Services (Mr s. Oleson) in regard to some special emphasis being placed on child abuse treatment and trai ning programs. Certainly it is very much a need in our society and in the Province of Mani toba and we do applaud these beginning initi atives.

There certainly are a num ber of excellent pilo t programs that have been es tablished out in the community, particularly through some of the child and family services agencies. We sincerely hope that the Minis ter will continue to work with the Child and Family Servi ces agencies in ensuring that these programs do continue and that child abuse and treatment becomes much more of a reality in this province. We find it interesting that there will be money, $ 12 0,000 put forth through the University of Manitoba through psychological services.

Although we certainly believe that is an excellent idea, we do wonder why, if these dollars have been targeted, why cannot day care dollars for day care programs through the Faculty of Human Ecology be targeted as well? The Government gives on one hand and takes on the other hand. Mr. Speaker, we applaud this initiative, but we suggest to the Min ister of Fam ily Services (Mr s. Oleson) this is a beginning plan, it is a partial plan. You must have specially trained staff in the child and family services agencies.

Many of the directors of Child and Family Services have been suggesting to me that if they went through a process of being accredited, which I am sure the Min ister is familiar with , in North America where you are accredited as an agency to provide services, most of them would not meet the criteria because of the lack of trai ning of their staff. What we need to see in addition to this is to look at the budgets of the various Child and Family Servi ces agencies because there must be the dollars provided so _that we can

Thursday, June 15, 1989 provide fOr those staff so that they are well trained: We do applaud the be ginnings of this and we hope to see more in the coming weeks. Thank you. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St . Johns): Mr. Speaker, I would like to beg in by off ering my words of congratulation on behalf of the New Democratic Party Caucus for the announcement to date to the tune of an additional $560,000 for some new ini tiatives in the field of child abuse.

We all recognize that the problem of child abuse is one of the most critical issues facing our societ y, fa cing the health of our fam il ies in communities everywhere. It is a plague on our society. It creates problems for generations to come. We know that abuse in childhood often leads to those children becoming abusers themselves or leading very difficult lives generally. * (1 340) I raise a number of concerns in the House today pur suant to this stat ement and pur suant to the Government's approach to the .very critical issue of child abuse.

The Minis ter has offered some ini tiatives that address one part of that problem. They do not address the full range of the issues before us, the issues of protection, the issues of treatment and the issues of prevention. I regret that, although we can commend the general ini tiative, we have to look very critically at the actual results from this announcement today, because in fact the Min ister is making this announcement after only a year ago cutting out of the budget over $200,000 that was going to treatment workers at Child arid Family Service agencies.

They have also cut back the outreach and preventative programs at the Child and Family Servi ces level, having a very serious impact on our abili ty as a soCiety to deal with those problems. As well, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, let me mention that critical to all of this is our ability to support counselling services. I have mentioned in this House regularly that there are now people, including children, being turned away from domestic abuse counselling services-26 children alone were turned away from Evolve this past year.

I think, if this Government is serious about dealing with child abuse, it will dea l with the problem from all aspects. It will deal with it in terms of prevention, protection and . . . . Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct Honour able Members' attention to the gallery where we have, from the Arthur Ol iver School, 15 students under the direction of Mrs. King. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond).

Also this afternoon from the Cormorant Lake School , twenty-five Grade 8 students under the direction of Tom Koop. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak). From the Crestview School, we have twenty-two students from Grade 4. These students are· under the direction of Dorothy Morish. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Co operative, Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs (Mr . Connery). From the Blumenort School, we have twenty-seven Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Laverna Loewen.

This school is located in the constituency of the Ho nourable Memb er for La Ve rend rye (Mr . ·Pankr atz). 598 Also this afte rnoon, seated in the public gallery and in the translator's booth, from the Dauphin Regional School, we have 14 students under the direction of Joyce Orisko and Gerald Shewchuk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba lntercultural Council � Russell Appointment Mrs. Shar on Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mi tchelson). Yesterday, outside of this House, the Min ister said that "she likes Grant Russell's approach to multiculturalism." Could she explain in the House this afternoon just exactly what it is about his approach to multiculturalism that she likes? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion): I do want to indicate that instead of the Liberal Party and the Liberal Opposition looking towards the good announcements we have made in the Throne Speech about multiculturalism, they choose to personally attack again members of our society, our Manitoban society and our Manitoban community. There are many people throughout the province, including the Mem ber for Springfield (Mr. Roch), who have taken di ffer ent posit ions during the French language debate back in years before . Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr .

Speaker: Order , please; ord er, please. The Honourable Member for Springfield, on a point of order. Mr. Gilles Roch (Springf ield): La position que j'ai prise etait la position du Parti conservateur. (Translation) Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): The position that I took was the position of the Conservative Party. * (13 45) (English) Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order.

Thursday, June 15, 1989 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, the Member for Spri ngfield (Mr. Roch) was on ... . Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) has asked a question. I am sure she wants to hear her answer. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, just to set the record straight, the Member for Spri ngfield (M r. Roch) was on the school board at the time when they were talking about entrenching French language into his school division and he opposed that. So I just wanted to straighten the record. Mr.

Speaker: The Honour able Member for Spri ngfie ld, on a point of order. Mr. Roch: M. le president, sur un point d'o rdre. Quand j' etais commissaire pour la Division Seine, le franc;:ais etait deja la et je ne l' ai jamais oppose. • (Translation) Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. When I was a trustee on the Seine School Division, French was already there and I never opposed it. (English) Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. As the Honourable Member knows, points of orders are used to draw the Chair's attention to some infraction of the rules. Ord er, please.

I have recognized the Honour able Leader of the Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . With a question to the Fi rst Min ister, in that the Min ister of Culture cannot tell us what it is she likes about the multicultural policy of Grant Russell, perhaps it is that the Premier (Mr . Filmon) can inform this House today what it is that he likes about Mr. Russell's multicultural policy. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I find it somewhat curious that the Leader of the Opposition and the Liberal Party made absolutely no mention of the fact tha t Mr .

Ru ssell was a member of the lntercultural Council for two years, the previous two years, prior to that time being extended by this Go vern ment 's appointment, made absol utely no mention of it and now they want to make a political issue of the fact that his presence on that council is being extended beyond that period of time. I suggest, Mr. Spea ker, tha t the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) is not only being somewhat hypocritical, but she is obviously being very, very political about that situation.

If she wants to carry on trying to drive wedges and open divisions between communities in this province, open old wounds about the French language issue, that is her preference. Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh! 599 Mr. Speaker: I have re cognized the Honourable Fi rst Min ister, not the whole front bench. Mr. Filmon: That is her attitude towards making people in this province work together in a multicultural spirit. She wants to drive stakes. She wants to drive wedges, make divisions, open old wounds.

That is not productive for this province, and that is not the kind of attitude that I would take towards multiculturalism. Russell Endorseme nt Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): We are not talking about an elected position here. We are talking about a Go ve rnment-appointed representative to a multicultural council that is going to advise this Government on mu lticultural policy for the Provi nce of Manitoba. We want to know from this Premier if he endor ses the multicultural policy of one Grant Russell and if tha t is the multicultural policy of his Government. Hon.

Gar y Filmon (Premier): What the Leader of the Opposition is saying is that she is criticizing the Irish commun ity for havi ng elected Mr. Russell to the lntercultural Council. That is what she is saying, that it was wrong for the Irish community to have elected him to the lntercultural Council. That is something where I think she is wrong. She is always interfering with other communities, always interfering with people, telling them what they should believe and what they should stand for. Mr.

Speaker, she at the same time will, I suppose, tell us that one Gornie Goertzen, who was her candidate in La Verendrye when he voted against having bilin gual muncipal tax statements in the R.M. of La Broquerie was expressing Li beral policy. I suppose that is what she says is the case. I suppose that when the Member for Spri ngfield (Mr. Roch) was . . .. Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mrs. Car sta irs: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting tha t even the Irish community has had difficulty and has been disowning Mr. Russell today.

I must say that the Irish community gave me great pride today and now I can hang my head high, to once again admit that my maiden name was Connoly. * (1 350) Russell Appointment Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with a new question to the Fi rst Minis ter, on December 19, we all stood up in this House to denounce the use by the Premier of Queb ec of the notwithst anding clause to override English-speaking minority right s in the Province of Quebec. We believed, all of us, that was a significant message from Manitoba to the Province of Queb ec.

How can the First Minister, having stood onDecember 19 to criticize a Premier for not protecting mino rity

Thursday, June 15, 1989 rights, how can he do that and, at the same time, some months later appoint one of the fiercest opponents of minority rights to a board, on behalf of his Government? Hon. Gary Fil mon (P remier): Mr .

Sp eak er, this administration has not only complied with but endorsed all of the requirements of the Supreme Court judgments, the two Supreme Court judgments earlier this decade with respect to Manitob a' s obligations under The Mani toba Act of 18 70, fully complied with them, set about to spend millions of dollars to comply with all the requirements, and gone beyond that to ensure that services were provided and extended to our language minority in Mani toba in the sense of good will and commitment that we ha ve to the French people of this province, and we will continue to do that, Mr. Speaker. Mrs.

Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, many hours have been spent by Members of this House on all sides listening to Manitobans in the Meech Lake Task Force, and we are working very hard together to come up with a unanimous Manitoba position. Ho w can this Fir st Min ister expect that position will be listened to in the Provi nce of Queb ec when his Government appoints someone who has consistently spoken out against the protection of the minority rights of Francophone people in the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, I remind the Leader of the Opposition that in the course of those public hearings that ther e were some very str ongly anti-French representations made to that Meech Lake Task Force. I rejected those representations. I continue to reject those representations. My Government rejects those representations. Our policy is the policy that I have just fin ished stating in response to her last question, and tha t remains the pol icy and the position of the Government of Manitoba, and that is the basis upon which I will face my other cou nterparts in the Fi rst Minis ters' meetings, Mr. Speaker.

Russell Resignation Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear, the Premier must do one very simple act today in order to be unequivocal. In order for him to hold his head high at Fi rst Mini sters' conferences, he must today rescind the appointment of Grant Russell. An Honourable Mem ber: Will he? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mrs. Carst airs: Final two words, Mr. Speaker, will he? Hon. Gary Filmon (Prem ier ): Mr.

Russell has served on that council for the past two years with not a word of objection from the Liberal Party of Manitoba , not a word of objection from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs). She felt that he had the qualifications and the ability to sit on that council and now, today, she has changed her mind because it is in her political 600 interest to do so. That is hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker, that is hypocrisy. Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. Time is very scarce and I am sure we want to get through this. Order , plea se.

The Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order. * (13 55) Mrs. Carstairs: Point of order. The Fi rst Min ister, from his seat, makes allegations of individuals in this House having no principles. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, we are supposed to be referred to in this House as Honour able Mem bers. One must assume that "honourable" implies that people have principles. It is not this Member, Mr. Speaker, who has not spoken out since June 4, 1987 in favour of protection of minority rights ... Mr. Premier, until December 19, 1988. Mr . Sp eaker: Order , please; ord er, please.

The Honour able Member does not have a point of order. � There is no point of order. • Mr. Filmon: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker: On a new point of order? Mr. Filmon: Yes. If she had any principles, she would ask her Member for Spri ngfield (Mr. Roch) to resign, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. That is not a point of order. Order, please. If Honourable Members want to get through Question Period, I expect to see some decorum here today. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The decorum party of Mani toba will ask a question.

In keeping with that decorum, we will make a suggestion to both Parties that both of them should resign and then we could have all of our Parties talking in a statesmanlike way. Emergency Measu res Organization Regulation Ame ndments Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Sp eak er, I have a qu estion for the Min ister responsible for The Emergency Measures Act and the Eme rgency Me asu res Organ izat ion (Mr . Al bert Driedger).

In the changes that were passed somewhat secretively in the middle of the night and not announced until we did so in this Legislature, there were changes affecting the procedures to be used in an emergency with the disposal of chemicals and goods from various workplaces and communities in this provinces. The changes in the regulation mean that the specific parts of an emergency procedure for emergencies dealing with chemicals has been removed and they have moved to a general procedure for all goods. In other words, cancer-causing goods at the workplace and solvents are treated the same way.

Does the Min ister support the changes that have been made by

Thursday, June 15, 1989 his Government in terms of the effect of procedu res under The Emergency Measures Act? Hon. Al bert Driedger (Minis ter of Gov ernment Services ): Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to reject the implication that changes were made in the middle of the nigh t. This is the second time the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) has used that kind of inference and I take real objection to that. I will indicate that I am very proud of the operations of the EMO organiza tion.

It has been demonstrated during the fires that we had, the y have always had the concerns of the people of Manitoba at heart and we have that at the present time as well. Mr . Doer: Well, the Min ister di d not an swer the question, just like the Premier two days ago, and the Minis ter.

My question to the Min ister is, does he feel the change from specific information on emergencies and emergency procedures that were required under the old Act dealing with cancer-causing materials, that change to go to general provisions for all materials, does he feel that is in the best interests of Manitobans dealing with emergency procedures unde r the Emergency Measures Act? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that there has been any change made under The EMO Act in terms of how they operate. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, there are changes affecting emergency procedures, and the Min ister should be aware when he sits around the Cabinet table. Hazardous Material Labelling Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minis ter of Environment (Mr. Cummings).

The changes in the regulation no w require the material that it will be disposed of will be disposed of in such a way that the specific requirement for materials and the specific labelling of cancer-causing material has been removed, and the Government and employers are only required to have generic, no-name brand kinds of labels for disposal of material at the work place and ultimately to our envir onment. * (14 00) Did the Min ister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) revie w th ese changes in the regula tions that his Government passed, and does he feel that is consistent with sound environmental policy where we know what we are handling in the environment, rather than this change to go to a no-name brand of labelling in the environment? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, precisely what is involved in the disposal and the record of what is included in the waste that is involved is kept very carefully in a manner that will protect the lives and the health of those who are handling these products, and it is kept in a manner that is very easily accessible. 601 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Min ister why this matter was not referred to the Workplace Safety and Health Advisory Task Force. Was this regulation only drawn up by David Newman? Disposal Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition ): Why can he possibly say in this House that it will improve the environment, when he is taking away the procedures, the material and listing of materials in terms of mater ials that will be di sposed of in to the environment, disposed of by employers? How can he possibl y say that will be an impr ov ement to the environment when the old regulation required that cancer-causing materials such as PCBs would be lifted, and the new regulations go to a no-name brand under the requirements that the employers ask for, and only the employers ask for in this province? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the New Democratic Party is trying to show tha t he is being protective, when in fact the record of everything that is being disposed of is being very carefully kept. The protection of the workers will be facilitated through that record. Workplace Safety and Health U.S. Standards Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Labour responsible for Workpla ce Sa fety and Health (Mr s. Hammond).

Yesterday in this House, in response to questions about the new regulations for hazardous materials in the workplace, this Mini ster stated and I quote, "that these regulations do not in any way dimini sh the protection of the worker." That that is incorrect is abundantly clear to anyone who takes the time to read these regulations. Mr. Speaker, in fact, the new threshold levels adopted by this Min ister were established in the United States of America.

Can this Min ister tell this Ho use what, if any, investigation did she do into the standards set in the United States before importing them to Canada, and is this part of the new rational ization and harmonization that was never supposed to be part of the free trade deal? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minis ter of Lab our resp onsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards) seems to see free trade under every bush. That was not any of the reasons for the change. My department's mandate is to protect workers.

We are guided by the principles contained in The Workplace Safety and Health Act, and we are instructed and directed as every Government must be by the Act, and it states, and I will quote it, "it ensures so far as is reasonably practical, the safety, health and welfare of workers." This Government supports strongly the dual principles of "reasonable" and "practical." Both the old and the new regula tions provide equ iv alent protection of workers' health. There has been absolutely no change in this.

Thursday, June 15, 1989 Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with a supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the fact is, lowest detectable level is now gone. Reasonable practicality for who? For the employer is now the standard in this province. The fact is this Min ister did not investigate the standards in the United States because, if she did, she would have known that these standards are presently being challenged in court by the American Federation of Labour. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. Would the Honour able Member kindly put his question now? Mr.

Edwards: For the Minis ter, is the Min ister aware that these very standards imported to Manitoba ha ve been challenged in court in the United States? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), on a point of order. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) often has a little trouble with the rules. This time, I would suggest that he be called to order for. not ascertaining the accuracy of the facts that he brings before the House and asking if the Min ister is aware. Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order , please; order please. I would like to remind the- The Honourable Opposition Ho use Leader (Mr . Alcock), on the same point of order. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Lead er): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, given that this question has been before the House for two days now, the Min ister should be reasonably expected to be aware of the situation in order to offer opinio ns on things that her department has done. Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. On the point of order raised by the Honour able Government House Leader (Mr .

Mccrae) where he says awareness questions are out of order in Beauchesne, there is nowhere in Beauchesne that quotes an awareness question as out of order. "To ascertain the accuracy of the facts," that

part is all right, but I have been hearing from the front benches, on and off, awareness questions. I would like to remind all Honourable Members at this time that there are no rules in Beauchesne which quote "should the Member be aware." Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Therefore, there is no point of order. 602 Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, this regulation is in concert with its companion women's regulation and we are on the leading edge of health protection in Canada.

Other provinces including Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario make reference to levels as low as reasonably practical to protect workers. The concept is not new. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Ja mes (Mr. Edwards), his final question. Mr. Edward s: Ob viously, the Min ister is not aware that this is being challenged in the United States. My final question is, did this Min ister take the time to talk to Dr.

Steven Rappoport at the University of California who has done a thorough scientific study of this matter and who has concluded that considerable health risks exist with the se stan dards and that they are set according to industry norms, not acceptable health standards? Mrs. Hammond: In the context of amended regulation, it can actually be more stringent. Exposure could be reduced below the lowest detectable limit requirement � of the earlier regulation if it was practicable to do so, � so we have not made a change tha t canno t be substantiated. This is a change that is practical and reasonable.

Health Minister Apology Requested Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) contradicted me. He said the waiting list for speech disorders has been decreased. Mr. Speaker, he was wrong. Dr. Pat Alexander of the Health Sciences Centre has confirmed what we already knew, that the waiting list for speech therapy has grown for the last one year. There are 300 children waiting. My simple question is, will the Min ister of Health today apologize for giving wrong information in this House? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Healt h): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The Honour able Member for Kildonan, with a supplementary question. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Min ister for that. For the fi rst time, he has been humble in this House. Cardiac Care Waiting Period Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): My question is on May 29, when we pointed out to this Min ister, there were 90 patients waiting for cardiac surgery at the Health Sciences Centre. This Min ister said, "I do not believe that to be the case." My question is, can the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) apologize again, that he was wrong, and can he tell us what is the number of patients waiting now at Health Sciences Centre for cardiac surgery? Apologize. Hon. Donald Orchar d (Minist er of Health): One is enough in any day, Mr. Speaker. No, and 83. * (14 10)

Thursday, June 15, 1989 Speech Therapy Children Services Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Kildonan, with a final supplementary question. Mr . Guiza r Ch eema (Kil don an): My final supplementary, now that the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has apologized and he has admitted he was wrong, can he please now correct the problem for speech therapy so that children of Manitoba, who are not particularly voters at this time, and that is why they are not looking after them, Mr. Speaker, and he should put money in for them?

Can he take the measures and can he tell us what are his plans to provide these speech therapy services at Health Sciences Centre? POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), on a point of order. Hon. James McCr ae (Government House Leader): The Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) referred to the fact that children are not voters in this province. We all know that, but we all know too that such a reference can only imply an imputation of motive on the part of the Minis ter of Health (Mr .

Or chard), and I ask the Honourable Member for Kildonan to apologize to the Minis ter of Health for that choice of words. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On that point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae), I am uncertain as to the remarks that were quoted or said by the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema). Ord er, please. I will have no other option but to take this under advisement. Hon. Donald Orchar d (Min ister of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, I very much appreciate my honourable friend's questions and his concern.

Although I have to tell you that maybe the Li beral Party and maybe the Liberal Health Critic are motivated in their questioning by who can vote for them and who cannot, but I can assure you that I am not and neither is any Member of this Party. I want to tell you- Mr. Spea ker: The Ho nourable Opposition House Leader (Mr. Alcock), on a point of order. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am not certain, given that the point raised by the Government House Leader (Mr.

McCrae) was unclear and could not be heard, I suspect that this clear imputation of motives stated by the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Or chard) was received and was clearly understood, and I would ask that he with draw it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. There was no point of order. Mr. Or chard: Thank you. Then I will continue with my answer. As usual, there is no knowledge of the rules by the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). 603 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, the Liberal Health Critic (M r.

Cheema), is saying, what are you doing? I have attempted to ind icate to my honourable friend exactly what we have been doing. We have provided additional resources at the Health Sciences Centre to enable more services to be delivered in the pediatric audiology and speech pathology area. We are assess ing the educational needs by Dr. MacDiarmid. It is a follow-up on a 1986 report by Dr. Alexander of the Health Sciences Centre pointing out the difficulties Manitoba faced.

That report was before another administration for almost two years and within six months we increased the resource at Health Sciences Centre to provide a hig her level of service. I just want to point out to my honourable friend, the Liberal Health Critic, so that he is aware of some knowledge, that Manitoba in terms of numbers of speech pathologists per thousand of population is at the second lowest in Canada. Only Alberta has more speech pathologists per capita. Provincial Parks Admission Fees-Seniors Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speake r, my question is for the Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns).

The Min ister's press release of May 29, 1989, states that the provincial park entrance fees and costs for unserviced campsites will remain the same this year as last year. Can the Min ister tell this House why Manitoba's senior citizens are being charged $3 a day for daily pass admissions and $ 12 for seasonal passes. Under the previ ous admin istrat ion, they were not charged at all. Why are Manitoba seniors being hit with a new fee for seniors, especially in Seniors Month, when Alberta, Saskatchewan and B.C. enjoy this admission for free? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natur al Resourc es): Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member asks the question that I am sure is of concern to many people. The decision was made by Parks Branch and by this Go vernment that a reg ula r increase in fees was necessary that takes into account inf lationary increases, in terms of services provided to the parks. Our senior citizens continue to enjoy a considerable advantage in attending our parks. What has been imposed on them is a 50 percent cost of the regular fees which, in the judgment of this Government, was a reasonable figure. Camping Fees-Seniors Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for The Pas, with a supplementary question. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): There has been a whole series of regulations and changes that will make a notable impact on the senior citizens of Manitoba. Could the Min ister tell this House why seniors who camped for free a year ago are now payi ng $3.50 for a site? Can the Minis ter tell us why did he decide to raise the green fees for seniors at the provincial golf course by 46 percent to $7.50?

Thursday, June 15, 1989 Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): I suppose any increase can be termed in percentage terms just as the Member has, but the decision was suppo rted by many ind ications that I have had personally as an MLA and as Minis ter, that our seniors are quite prepared to pay a certain percentage to contribute to the facilities that we all enjoy in this province. They understand that although nobody likes increased fees, these facilities have to be paid for. Mr. Speaker, in general our fee structure throughout our parks system and our golf courses is among the lowest in the country.

This Government faces many demands to maintain th ose ser vices, hopefu lly at improved and increasingly better levels, and those services simply have to be paid for. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for The Pas, with his final suppl ementary question. Mr. Harapiak: The final supplementary question -it is unfortunate that the Min ister did not choose to make this information available or make it known when he was making his statement. Complimentary Passes-Seniors Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): My final question is to the Min ister for Seniors (Mr. Downey).

A new provision in the regu lations allo ws the Min is ter to issue complementary permits for parks entry fees, campsites and golfing facilities. Would the Min ister for Seniors at least stick up for the seniors and issue complimentary passes so that they can enjoy the same facilities they did under the administration of the New Democrats? Hon. Ja mes Downey (Minis ter responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear that this Government has a lot of respect, and will continue to do what we can to enhance the way of life for seniors in Manitoba.

The Member makes a specific question dealing with exemptions. That falls within the jurisdiction of my colleague, the Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns). Mr. Speaker, I have met with many seniors. Their concerns are health care, seniors abuse and all tho se other things that the seniors are concerned about. I say this very serious ly. I have not had one seniors organ iza tion come forward complaining about contributing to the preservation and enhancing of our parks and our environme nt.

In fact, I think they are very anxious to help preserve what they have enjoyed for their children and their grandchildren. It is a political issue being raised by the New Democratic Party- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker: Order , please; order , pleas e. The Honourable Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) on a point of order. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Member is imputing motives with his statement about politicizat ion and the fact that the Government 604 withheld this information from the public.

We raise it as clearly within our responsibilit y, and I would ask that he apologize. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. There is no point of order. Social As sistance Rental Allowance Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Family Services (M rs. Oleson) . We in the Of ficial Opposition have repeatedly asked this Min ister questions of the crucial issue of the Inner City housing and inadequate food allowances. We asked them last Session during the Estimates and again last week.

The Min ister of Family Services continually gives us weak responses to same. * (1 420) The Min ister has recently indicated to us and recently to the Wi nnip eg School Bo ard tha t the re is no connection between shelter allowances and student 4 transience. Will this Minis ter agree today to undertake a study in conjunction with the Winni peg School Board, SACOM, and other community groups to develop comprehensive recommendations which will resolve this serious problem of sub-standard housing? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Servic es): Mr.

Speaker, in response to the Member, I should tell him that I have met on three separate occasions with the SECOM group and discussed with them their opinions on the rental accommodations. Also, they have met with my staff to discuss this and to get some more inf ormation at the staff level concerning rents. We did increase the rental allowance, as the Member may be aware, on the 1st of January, which cost the province approximately about $3 million. We are continually monitoring the rental situation, and that is an annual occurrence that takes place. The rental is raised at the level of the Rentalsman.

CRISP Payments Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose), with a supplementary question. Mr . Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker , my supplementary to the same Mini ster, will this Min ister explain why children in families on social assistance in tl)e City of Wi nnipeg are entitled to CRISP payments, but recipients on provincial social assistance have the money grabbed back from them from the Government? Why does the Min ister allo w this most unfair inconsistency to continue after more than a year in offi ce? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minist er of Family Servi ces): Mr.

Speaker, the Member will be aware that SECO M has taken that subject to the Human Rig hts Commission and it is before them at this time. I have indicated before to the SECOM Group, and I believe in this House, that the Winnipeg caseload is very, very small because they have people on social assistance for a short term,

Thursday, June 15, 1989 employable people. So, their caseload of people who would be qualified for CRISP is very small. Also, I will indicate again that case is before the Human Rig hts Commission. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose), with a final supplementary question. Mr. Rose: Mr. Speaker, as small as they be, it would sure help to put some food on the table and increase the accommodation for these children. Lunch Program Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, my last question will be to the Mi nister of Education (Mr . Derkach).

I ask the Mini ster, is this Minis ter willing to continue to condone the practice of the Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) whereby thousands of children every day have inadequate housing and attend school on empty sto machs, with the re sulting waste of our scarce educational dollars, this action at the same time as the l Fina nce Mi nister (Mr. Man ness) sets up a $200 milli on ' slush fund? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, let me indicate to the Mem ber oppo site tha t this Go vernment has committed itself to a proper education system in this province. We have shown that by our support of the education system in this province in terms of supporting education, not only in the City of Wi nnip eg but throughout the entire province. We will continue to do that. It is a tragedy that there are children within our province and in our city who do go to school with empty stomachs. That is not a desirable situation for any of us.

We in this Govern ment, although we have only been here a year, are doing everything we possibly can to ensure that in fact our children get the proper learning envir onment within the school system so that those children can learn and contribute to our society in the future. Land Titles Office Delays � Mr. Harold Gillesham mer (Minnedosa ): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae). A year ago, registration and acceptance of title at the Winnipeg Land Titles Of fice took 43 days. How many days does it take now? Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order. Hon.

James McCr ae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General ): A year ago, Mr. Speaker, it was 43 days. The numbers fluctuate a little bit from day to day, but as of yesterday it was nine. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Min nedosa (M r. Gilleshammer) with a supplementary question. Mr. Gillesham mer: A supplementary question to the Min ister of Justice. To what does the Mi nister attri bute this improvement? 605 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) on a point of order. Mr. Steve Asht on (Second Opposition House Leader): . . .

Government Members to ask questions, and certainly while it might ha ve been more appropriate for a ministerial statement on the first question, I really do believe that the second question is not appropriate. We have sat here patiently throughout Question Period, the New Democratic Party, with many very important questions to ask. I would really suggest we move on to more urgent matters. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. We have time left if the Honourable Min ister's answer is short. Mr. McCr ae: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr.

Speaker: There is no point of order. Mr. Mccrae: I believe the question was- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr. McCr ae: -dedicated civil servants and good Government, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the Min ister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) did not hear the question or he would have answered, because we are not doing anything in terms of the economy. Hydro Development Ontario Sale Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the Min ister responsi ble for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld).

In 1987, Manitoba Hydro signed an agreement with the Province of Onta rio, with Ontario Hydro to export some 200 meg awatts of power. Part of the terms of those negotiations were the agreement on the part of both parties to continue discussions for a much larger 400 to 1,000 megawatt sale. My question to the Min ister is, has the Min ister's own anti-hydro development attitude or that of the chairman of Manitoba Hydro stopped those negotiations?

Can the Minis ter give this House an assurance that he has directed Manitoba Hydro to conclude a sale to Ontario Hydro, given the eagerness on the part of Ontario Hydro to have that sale? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Hydro is continuing its negotiati ons and discussions with Ontario Hydro. To date, no decisions have been made, no conclusions have been made, but as soon as that happens we will report to the House. Mr. St orie: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are genuinely interested in the orderly development of our hydro resources.

I do not need to tell the Minis ter responsible for Manitoba Hydro that the unemployment rate is growi ng. I do not need to tell the Minis ter that Onta rio

Thursday, June 15, 1989 desperately needs some long-term power. My question is, has the Min ister had any direct contact with Onta rio Hydro? Can he indicate whether the phone calls that he has received from perhaps the Premier of Ontario with respect to the sale are being returned? Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, this Government is not about to allow the economy of the province to be driven by construction projects before they are needed. As the negotiations proceed, we will report to the House. Nothing has been concluded.

I have been in contact with the Min ister of Energy from Onta rio, and our chairman has been in discussions with the chairman of Ont ario Hydro, but no negotiations have been concluded. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Premier. Is the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) of this province going to sit on his hands while his Min ister responsible for Manitoba Hydro blows potential sale after potential deal after potential deal?

Wi ll the First Min ister, who has received phone calls from the Onta rio Govern ment who are anxious to have the sale concluded, will the First Min ister stand up for Manitoba and help the Province of Manitoba develop its natural resources? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Member for Flin Flon that I am well-informed of the procedures and the process of the negotiations and dis cussion.

I have been inv olved myself with authorities at the hig hest lev els in Ontario, and I can tell the Mem ber for Flin Flon that, unlike his adminis tration, when the deal is concluded, it will be a good deal for the benefit of the people of Manitoba and not a giveaway or not involve the building of plant two years before we had a market in order to foster and fuel their own political interests. This will be a good deal for Manitoba when it is announced. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. • (14 30) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCr ae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Orde r for Return, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon? ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 8 Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson (M r. Ashton), that an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following inf ormation: (

a) a list of all private schools receiving public funds; and (

b) a list of all schools receiving special needs funding and the level of funding received; and (

c) a copy of all corresondence sent to private schools outlining the procedures for applying 606 for and spending special needs financial support; and (

d) an outline of the accountability procedures in place within the Department of Education, or other departments, to monitor or account for the money provided for meeting the needs of special needs students; and (

e) any wr itten corresponden ce fr om the Mini ster, or any of his designates, with respect to the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Special Needs. MOTION presented. Hon. James Mccrae (Gove rnment House Lead er): Mr. Speaker, this Order for Return is acceptable to the Government. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. Mr. McCr ae: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to He r Majesty, Agriculture in the Chamber, Hig hways in the committee room.

MATT ER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): M. le president, je voudrais presenter un grief, ce qui est mon droit comme membre de cette legislature. Hier le premier minis tre (Mr. Filmon) et la ministre du Patrimoine et de la Culture (Mrs. Mi tchelson) ont fait des declarations fausses publiquement non seulement dans la Chambre mais aussi en dehors de la Chambre aux medias. M. le president, je reconnais le fait que j'ai le droit de les poursuivre dans les tri bunaux et je vous dis que ceci est une option que je suis en train de le considerer. J'a i deja fait un rende z-vous avec les avocats necessaires.

Mais pour tourner aux declarations que les ministres ont faites en Chambre, aux medias, hier durant la periode des questions le Premier Min istre a dit: "P rio r to getting involved with our party or being elected he was a member of the Grassroots organization, actively in volved as a citizen member of this province in opposing bilingualism." M. le president, je peux vous dire que ceci est faux. J'a vais joint le Parti conservateur en 1976 alors c'etait pas avant et puis comme j'a i dit hier, et que j'ai repete aux medias je n' ai jamais ete membre ou bien ete implique avec I' organisation Grassroots.

Aussi dans les deux journaux principaux de Wi nnipeg, le premier ministre a repete ses declarations fausses. Et aussi hier soir la ministre du Patrimoine et de la Culture (M rs. Mitchelson) a dit publiquement qu'elle avait les preuves. Je lui demande d' abord aujourd'hui de nous demontrer ses preuves. Qu'elle les sorte, qu'elle les mette sur la table. Si elle n' est pas capable, je dis au premier ministre, ce que je vous dis, M. le president, ces allegations ont ete faites en dehors de la Chambre et puis s'ils ne sont pas prets a defendre ce qu'ils ont

Thursday, June 15, 1989 dit, ils vont peut-etre etre oblig es de defendre leurs actions dans les tri bunaux. M. le president, comme vous le savez en 1986 I' opposition au bilingu isme officielle faisait

partie de la plate-forme du Parti conservateur . M. le Pr emie r Minis tre, le Membre de Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) a une assemblee de tous les candidats conservateurs, que sans doute vous vous rappelez, a dit que n' importe quel membre qui n' etait pas d' accord avec la plate forme du Parti conservateur, qu'il ne signerait pas ses papiers de nomination . Tous les membres, tous les candidats en ce temps-la, y inclus le Membre de Riv er East (M rs. Mi tchelson) y inclus tous les vingt-quatre membres du Parti avec !'e xception de peut-etre deux, qui sont nouveaux cette annee, ont accepte c;:a.

M. le President, on sail que durant le cours de la campagne que malgre que le Premier Minis tre (Mr. Filmon) ... . (Translation) � Mr. Gilles Roch (Sp ringfie ld): I wish to present a grievance according to my right as a Member of this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) and the Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (M rs. Mitchelson) made false statements publically, not only in the House but also outside the House to the media. Mr.

Speaker, I recognize the right that I can pursue them in front of the courts but I am tel ling you that this is an option that I am considering. I have already made an appoin tment with the lawyers as was necessary. I have returned to the statements made by the Minis ters made in the House and to the media. Mr. Speaker, yesterday during the Que stion Period the First Min ister (M r. Filmon) said: "Prior to getting involved with our Party or being elected, he was a member of the Grassroots organization, actively involved as a citizen mem ber of this province in opposing bilingualis m." Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that this is false. I joi ned the Conservative Party in 1976 and as I said yesterday, and as I repeated to the media I have never been a mem ber and ha ve never been involv ed with the Grassroots organization. Also, in the two principal papers of Wi nnipegk the First Min ister (M r. Filmon) repeated his false statements and also, yesterday even ing, the Min iste r of Cult ure, Heritage and Recreation (M rs. Mitchelson) stated publicly that she had proof. I ask today that the Min ister of Culture (M rs.

Mi tchelson) show us the proof, that she table this proof and, if she is not capable of doing this, I would say to the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon) what I am saying to you, Mr. Speaker, is that these allegations were made outside the House and if they are not ready to defend what they have said, they will perhaps be obliged to defend their actions before the courts. Mr. Speaker, as you know in 1986 the opposition to official bilngua lism was part of the Con servative platform. The First Minis ter, the Member for Tuxedo (Mr .

Filmon) in an assembly of all Cons ervative candida tes, as you pro bably recall, said that any 607 Mem ber who was no t in agree ment with the Con servative Party that he would not sign his nomi nation papers. All Members, all candidates at that time, including the Mem ber for Ri ver East (M rs. Mi tchelson), including all the 24 members of the Party, with perhaps the exception of two who were new that year, accepted this. Mr. Speaker, we know that in the course of the campaign that in spite of the fact that the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) . (English) Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The Honourable Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, on a point of order. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recre ation): I kno w that the Mem ber fr om Springfield (Mr. Roch) was referring to some meeting of candidates and I want it clear on the record that I was never at a meeting of any candidates before the 1986 election because I was not nominated till after the writ was issued. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Spri ngfie ld. Mr.

Roch: The Minister is partially correct. Cliff Annabal had been nominated for a year prior and was forced to resign because of other matters. The fact remains that when she accepted to be a candidate she accepted the PC Party platform or else the First Minis ter (M r. Filmon) would not have signed her nomination papers. As a matter of fact, during the course of the campaign upon which all PC candidates in 1986 ran, the Premier (M r.

Filmon) circulated an open letter to all Manitobans and all 57 constituencies and it reads as such, and this is a direct quote: "An important message from Gary Film on: Dear fellow Manitoban, Let's set the record straight. During the election campaign, many of you have asked our candida tes for the position of the Progress iv e Conservative Party of Man itoba with regard to the French language issue. I hope the following points will clarify our stand. "1) We will not entrench additi onal French language rights in our constitution.

"2) We will not agree to any unwarranted expansion of French language services in Manitoba Government departments or Crown Corporations. "3) Prio r to proceed ing with any proposal for constitutiona l amendment, whether it be language or any othe r subject, we will hold provincewide public hearings and be guided by the results of these hearings. "Ma nitobans, we hear you loud and clear. Sincerely," it is signed , "Gary Filmon, Leader of the Manitoba Progressive Conservative Party." M. le president, ceci etait une plate-forme que non seulement les candidats conservateurs courraient avec,

Thursday, June 15, 1989 et j' en etais un de ceux. malgre que j'ai toujours dit dit durant mes campagnes electorales-la division scolaire et au niveau provincial que j' etais en faveur des services en fram;:ais ou ii y avait la demande suffisante ou bien une demande sign ifiante. Et si, le membre qui est maintenant le chef du Nouveau Parti Democratique (Mr . Doer) aurait eu la signa ture du Membre de Tuxedo (Mr . Filmon) pour etre candidat du Parti conservateur a River Heights en 1986, lui-meme aurait accepte cette plate-lorme. Alors, qu'il ne fasse pas d' accusations aujourd'h ui.

Comme j'a i dit auparavant hier soir, a la televisi on, le premier min istre disait que j' etais tete-a-tete avec M. Grant Russell, le chef de !' organisation Grassroots. * (14 40) M. le president, je n' ai jamais connu Grant Russell. Je ne l' ai jamais rencontre. Je sais qui ii est. On sait tous qui ii est Mais encore, le premier ministre (Mr . Filmon) continue a faire des declarations fausses. II taut que le record soit clair et sur. C' etait interessant a matin a la radio que malgre que j'i magine que le Premier Min istre (Mr. Filmon) n'a pas ecoute la radio ce matin.

II disait que c' etait hypocrite des Li beraux de poser M. Russell a ce temps-ci parce que c'etait deux ans qu'i l representait la communaute irlanda ise sur le Conseil interculturel. Mais, a la radio ce matin, les membres des deux organisations irlandai ses ont dit que M. Russell n'avait pas ete elu, ne les representait pas. Les quelq ues personnes d' origene ir lan daise avaient, et, se dis leur mots exactement, "flipp ed a coin" pour decider qui les representerait sur le Conseil interculturel. M. le president, c'est interessant que dans ses reponses le premier ministre (Mr.

Filmon) n'etait pas au courant de ceci. Le premier minis tre (Mr. Filmon) et la min istre du Patri moine et la Cu ltur e (Mr s. Mi tchels on), en effet , tout les membr es du Gouvernement, aiment ea appeler les Li beraux des hypocrites. Et quand je dis membre du Go uvernement, je suis aussi bi en d'in clure le Nouv eau Parti Democratique parce qu'e ssentiellement, ils son! tous ensemble. Mais, qui sont-ils, les hypocrites? lls se tournent de bord maintenant, et ils son! en faveur des droits min oritair es. C' est possible. Tous les partis politiqu es au courant de leur annee changent leurs positions.

Tous les partis politiques depuis leur londation que ea soil en 1970, 1967, 18 70, 18 67, ont des changements de positions. Je ne suis pas au courant qu'il y eu un changement de politique dans le Parti conservateur dernierement, mais s'il y en a eu un sans doute ils devraient le dire. En elisant M. Russell a leur executil, a leur dernier congres, ea demontre a tout le monde ce que je pense que leur politique n'a pas change.

Nul autre que Bernard Bocquel, le red acteur de la Li beria m'a di! personellement, et je crois qu'il l'a ecrit aussi que la difference entre le Parti conservateur et le Nouv eau Parti Democratiqu e au temps de la grosse issue de la langue franeaise etait plut61 la rhetorique que !' action ou le non-action. Et la l'on se retrouve avec I' issue du Lac Meech, une issue que j'ai opposee perso nnel lement dur ant la 608 campagne et meme quand j' etais du bord du Go uvernemenl, mais que le premier minis tre (Mr .

Filmon) voulait absolument, absolument passer pour essayer d' etre dans les bons-je ne sais pas comment on le dirait-sur le bon bord du premier ministre du Canada. Mais ce n'est pas arrive. Tout a coup le premier ministre (Mr. Filmon) a realise que la position du Parti Li beral etait celle qui representait les Manitobains. Et d' abord a ce point-la, le premier ministre (Mr. Fi lmon) apres qu'il avait presente la motion le vendredi sur la fin de semaine, eu ii a la pression de son caucus, sans doute, et a plusieurs lettres et de coups de lils a decide de renverser sa position completement.

Si l'on retourne a des issues du Free Press au mois de juillet et possiblement au mois d'a out, ou peut-etre c'est toutes les deux au mois de juillet, ii y avail deux

article s quand je siegeais encore sur le bord du Gouvernement ou j'a i publiquement indique que je ne supportais pas !'A ccord du Lac Meech. En ce temps- la on devrait dire probablement encore aussi jusqu'a apr es !' election fe derale que le Nou veau Parti Democratique y inclus le Membre de Concordia (Mr. � Doer) supportait avec enthousiasme I' Accord du Lac , Meech. Alors, qu' ils ne viennent pas precher aux Liberaux aujourd'hui que c'est eux qui representent les Manitobains. C'e st comme M. Carstairs a dit l'ann ee passee, !' Accord du Lac Meech est mort.

C'e st a peu pres le temps qu' ils deviennent convaincus. M. le president, l' annee passee ii y a eu des temps ou j'ai eu des dif ferences d'o pinions avec La So ciete Franco Manitobaine. J'a i souvent eu des differences d'o pinions avec diflerentes organisations mais ces differences sont dans le passe. Quand M. Leo Robert, qui etait le president de la Societe a ce temps-la, etait president, quand je le vois ces temps-ci, on a aucune difficulle de s' asseoir et prendre une tasse de cate ou quoi que ce soit ensemble.

Meme en 1986 quand j' etais candidat Conservateur j'a vais ete invite par la Societe Franco-Manitobaine a donner la parole a leur congres annuel. Et je voudrais lire d' une lettre qui m'avait ete envoye le 12 tevrier 1986 par M. Rheal Sabourin qui a ce temps-la etait devenu le president de la S.F.M. En

partie ea dit: "En cette annee d' election vous pourriez faire connaltre les politiqu es, les intentions de votre parti a l'e gard des Francophones du Manitoba. Je profite aussi de cette occasion pour vous souhaiter bonne chance dans votre campagne electorale et je vous remercie d'avoir accepte notre invitation au nom de M. Filmon ." M. le president, j'ai dit clairement quelle etait la position du Parti conservateur et aussi ma position personnelle ac e temps-la.

Ca n'a jamais ete un secret II y a des membres du Nouveau parti democratique qui disent: "Ah, ben on a des pamphlets que tu as distribu es." Sans doute. lls ont ete distri bues dans tout le comte de Spri ngfie ld. S'ils n'en on pas, bien, ils ne garden! pas leurs records trop bien. Dernierement, ii y avail mention que dans les questions orales que quand j'e tais commissaire j'a vais oppose les services de langue franeaise. Une autre allegation, une autre declaration fausse. M. le president, la Division de la Seine a toujours ete une division

Thursday, June 15, 1989 scolaire bilin gue. Je n'ai jamais oppose ea. En verite quand ils voulaient construire une ecole regionale franeaise du grade sept a douze, je me suis debattu pour essa yer de l' avoir dans mon qua rtie r. Je representais le monde qui m'avait elu. Puis qu'il y avait, comme c'est naturel dans la politique, une petite difference d' opinions sur la location, ceux qui la voulaient ailleurs m'a ccusaient d'e tre anti franeais. Je ne comprends pas comment que, moi meme qui suis peux Canadien-Franeais, moi-meme peux etre accuse d'e tre anti-franeais.

Surtout quand que j'en ai pas appris la langue anglaise avant que j'a ie cinq ans. J' ai encore de la misere avec. En tout les cas, je n' ai pas reussi dans mon but, l'e cole a ete ailleurs. Mais, avant de partir, j'a i eu !' occasion de commencer les demarches pour en avoir une toujours bien de la maternelle au grade neuf qui est maintenant construite. II y a eu des problemes avec la construction mais ea c'est une affaire de contracteurs et non politique.

Dernierement, Monsieur le president, j'ai ete invite � a participer de la part du caucus liberal et de la part , de Mme Carstairs, a la fondation de I' Association des Mun icipalites Bilin gues. M. Maurice Gauthier, ancien representant du Commissaire aux langues of ficielles m'avait rendu !'i nvitation. II etait tres content que j' etais venu. M. Denis Grenier qui est maintenant le president de I' Association, le maire de Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes, mon village natal, m'a envoye une lettre de felicitations, content que j' etais venu.

Alors, ea vient de contredire tout ce que le Premier ministre et la Min istre de la Culture ont dit. C'e st interessant de noter qu'une invitation avait ete envoyee a l'a ncien Min istre des Affaires municipales pour etre la, le membre de Ste-Rose, pour etre present. Et quand ii y a eu un changement dans le Cabi net, ils ont change le nom du departement des Affaires municipales au Developpement rural , qu' ils ont envoye la meme invitation une deuxieme fois au Min istre present du Developpement rural. lls n'ont reeu aucune reponse.

Aucune reponse jusqu'a la journee meme dans l'apres-midi, quelques heures avant l'evenement quand quelqu'un les a fait savoir que j'a vais accepte !'in vitation de representer Mme. Carstairs et le Parti li beral a leur Association. Et la, et seulement a ce temps-la, M. Don Leech, le secretaire du cabinet, a vite appele M. Gauthier pour leur les informer qu'e n effet le min istre serait present. Je pense que si ce n'a vait pas ete le fait qu'ils avaient invite un membre de !'o pposition, je pense que le ministre n'a urait pas ete la.

Le president de I' Union des municipalites du Manitoba etait present en leur off rant de !'a ssistance dans n' importe quelle maniere qu'il pouvait. Le representant du gouvernment federal a fait la meme chose. Mais le min istre meme a seulement dit quelques mots de bienvenue et ne bonne chance et ne leur a fait aucune assistance. Cela dit beaucoup de droit de la. * (14 50) Mais est-ce que le ministre et ce gouvernement est seulement anti-franeais? Je pense que ea va plus loin que ea.

M. le president, dernie rement j'ai demande des 609 questions sur la situation legale entre la vill e de Thompson et la tri bu d'lndi ens Keewatin. Et puis le ministre a dit qu'il voulait se rencontrer moi-meme et le critique du Nouveau parti democratique. Monsieur le president, j' espere que le ministre essaie pas de jouer les membres des organisations municipales contre les lnd iens en esperant gagne r l'a vantage politique dans d'a utres parties de la province. Paree que je ne pense pas que ces jours-ci une situation de meme marcherait. Peut-etre en 1750, peut-etre en 1850 mais pas aujourd'hui.

La position du Parti liberal est tres claire, tres claire, et j' avertis le ministre de ne faire aucune declaration fausse malgre qu'il a dit, malgre qu'il a dit qu' on se rencontrera ensemble. Et peut-etre je devrais lire les questions et les reponses qui ont ete presentees le 12 juin 1989. J'a i demands a ce point-la, j'a i dit: "Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Rural Development (M r. Penner).

On October 7, the then Min ister of Municipal Affairs wrote to the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and stated the following with regard to the Keewatin Tribal Council's case against the City of Thompson. When I receive a copy of the decision of the court, I will be in a better position to determine what action, if any, we have to take with respect to the matter. Will the Minis ter of Rural Development now tell this House what action his Government intends to take?" Whereupon the Minis ter replied: "I thank the Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Roch) for his question.

It is certainly something that the court has ruled on. I have asked for a legal opinion and advice from my depa rtment on this matter. As soon as I have received that, I will sit down and attempt to, and I invite both Opposit ion

Partie s to meet on this matter with me to discuss this matter and see whether we can come to some point, on some reasonable course of action on this matter, but only if and when I have received legal advice on it." (Translation) Mr. Roch: This was a platform that not only the Conservative candidates ran with, and I was one of them in spite of the fact that I always said, and I said it during my electoral campaigns and in the school division and at the provincial level that I was in favour of French services where there was sufficient demand for it or if there was significant demand for it.

And if the Member who is now the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) had had the signature of the Member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) to be a Conservative candidate in River Heights in 1986, he himself would have accepted this platform, so he should not make any accusations today. As I said before, yesterday evening on television, the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon) said that I was hand in glove with Mr. Grant Russell, the leader of the Grassroots organization. Mr. Speaker, I have never known Grant Russell. I have never met him. I know who he is. We all know who he is, but again the First Minis ter (Mr .

Thursday, June 15, 1989 Filmon) continues to make fals e statements and the record has to be clear and correct on that. It was interesting this morning on the radio, although I suspect the Premier (Mr. Filmon) did not listen to the radio this morning, he was saying that it was hypocritical on the part of the Liberals to oppose Mr. Russell at this time, because he had been representing the Irish community for two years on the lntercultural Council already. But on the radio this morning, members of the two Irish organiza tions said that Mr. Russell had not been elected and that he did not represent them.

Certain people of Irish origin said, and I will quote the words exactly, they flipped a coin to say who would represent them on the lntercultural Council. Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that in his answers the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) was not aware of this. The Fi rst Min ister and the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion (Mr s. Mi tchelso n), and in fact all the Mem bers of the Gov ernment, should not call the Liberals hypocrites, and when I talk about the Members of the Government I am including the NDP, because essentially they are all together. But who are they?

They turn around and they are in favour of the rights of minorities. This is possible. All political Parties change their positions from year to year, and since their founding, whether it is 1970, 1967, 18 70, or 1867, they have all had changes of position. I am not aware that there has been a policy change in the Conservative Party lately, but if there has been one, probably they should say so. In electing Mr. Russell to their executive council at their last meeting, that shows to the whole world that their politics have not changed. None other than Mr.

Bernard Bocquel, the editor of La Li berte, said to me personally that the difference between the Conservative Party and the NDP, at the time of the great French language issue, was rather a difference in rhetoric than of action or of non-action. And now there is the Meech Lake issue, a matter which I opposed personally during the electoral campaign, and even when I sat on the Government side, but which the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) wanted absolutely to have passed in an attempt to be in the good books of the Prime Min ister of Canada. But that did not happen. All of a sudden, the Fi rst Min ister (Mr.

Filmon) realized that the Li beral Party position was the one that represented Manitobans and fi rstly, at that time, the Fi rst Min ister, after he had presented the motion on a Frid ay, over the weekend, under pressure from his caucus no doubt, and undoubtedly because of various letters and telephone calls, decided to reverse his opposition completely. If we turn to several issues of the Free Press, in the month of July or possibly in the month of August, there were two articles when I sat on the Government side in which I publicly indicated that I did not support the Meech Lake Accord.

At that time, until after the federal election, the NDP, including the Member for Concordia, supported the Meech Lake Accord. So he should not come preaching . --- 610 to the Liberals today, who are the ones who represent Manitoba. As Mrs. Carstairs said last year, the Meech Lake Accord is dead. It is about time they realized that. Mr. Speaker, last year I had differences of opinion at different times with the Franco-Manitoban Society. I have often had differences of opinion with various organizations, but the se differences are in the past. Mr.

Leo Ro bert was the president of the Franco Manitoban Society at that time, and when I see him now we ha ve no difficulty in sitting down together and having a cup of coffee or what ha ve you together. Even in 1986, when I was a Conservative candidate, I was invited by the Franco-Manitoban Society to speak to them at their annual meeting and I would like to read from a letter sent to me on February 12, 1986 by Mr. Rheal Sabourin who at that time was the president of the Franco-Manitoban Society.

In part, this letter says: "In this election year, you could make known the policies and intentions of your Party in regard to Mani toba's Francophones. I would also like to take this opportunity to wish you good luck in your electoral campaign and I thank you for having accepted our j invit ation on behalf of Mr. Filmon." � Mr. Speaker, I clearly stated what the position of the Conservative Party was and also my personal position at that time. It was never a secret. There are Members of the NDP who say, well, we have some pamphlets you distributed.

Dou btle ss the y were distribut ed throughout Spri ngfield and if they do not have any, then they do not keep their records very well. Recently, there was mention made in Q uestion Period that when I was a trustee I was opposed to French language services. This is another allegation, another false statement. Mr. Speaker, the Seine Riv er Division has always been a bilingual school division . I have never opposed this. In truth, when they wanted to build a French regional school, it was from Grades 7 to 12, I fought to obtain it in my area.

I was representing the people who had elected me because, as is natural in politics, ther e were small di fferences of opinion concerning the location of the school. People who wanted it els ewhere accused me of being anti-French. I do not understand how I, who am a French-Canadian myself, could be accused of being anti-Fren ch, particularly when I did not learn Englis h until I was five years old, and I still have difficulty with it. As for the school, I did not succeed in my objective. The school was built elsewhere.

But before leaving I had the opportunity to initia te action in order to have one from Kindergarten to Grade 9 in my area, which is now built. There were problems with the building of it, but that is a matter to do with contractors and not a matter of politics. Recently, Mr. Speaker, I was invited to attend, on behalf of the Li beral Party and by Mrs. Carstairs, the founding of the Association of Bilingu al Municipalities. Mr. Maurice Gauthier, former representative of the Commissioner of Of ficial Languages, invited me. He was very pleased that I came. Mr.

Denis Grenier, who is now the president of this association and the Mayor of Notre Dame de Lourdes, which is my home town, sent me a letter of congratulations, pleased that I had come to this meeting .

• Thursday, June 15, 1989 That contradicts everything that the First Minis ter (Mr . Filmon) and the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mi tchelson) have said. It is interesting to note that the invitation was sent to the former Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs, the Member for Ste. Rose, and when there were changes made in Cabinet they changed the name of the Department of Muni cipal Affairs to Rural Development, and they sent the same invitation a second time to the present Min ister of Ru ral Development (Mr. Penner). They received no reply.

No reply until the very day in the afternoon, some hours before the event, when someone was told that I had accepted the invitation to represent Mrs. Carstairs and the Li beral Party at the association. And only at that point, Mr. Don Leitch, the secretary to Cabi net, quickly called Mr. Gauthier to inform him that the Min ister would indeed be present. I think that, had it not been the fact that they had invited a Member of the Opposi tion, the Minis ter would not have been there either. The president of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities was present and offered whatever assistance he could.

The representative of the federal Government did the same, but the Min ister himself only said a few words of welcome, wished them well, and offered no assistance. Are the Min ister and his Govern ment only anti French? I think that it goes further than that. Mr. Speaker, lately I have asked questions about the legal situation between the Ci ty of Thom pson and the Keewatin Tribe, and the Minis ter stated that he wanted to meet with me and the NOP Critic. Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the Minis ter is not trying to play the Members of municipal organizat ions against the Nativ es in the hope of gai ning more political advantage in other parts of the province, because I do not think that such a situation would work -perhaps in 17 50, perhaps in 1850, but not today. The Li beral Party's position is very clear and I warn the Min ister not to make any false statements, in spite of the fact that he said that we would meet together. Perhaps I should read the questions and answers presented on June 12, 1989. I asked at that point, and I said. (English) Mr.

Speaker, the fact is that the Minis ter has not received this legal advice. We have met, the Minis ter, myself and the Member for Dauphin and we asked certain questions. But, being the Minis ter, being in Government, as I told him, bring us your proposals. I certainly do not appreciate getting veiled threats that, well, I may have to go out to the regional meetings of the municipalities, of the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and say I do not have the co-operation of the Li beral Party. Mr. Speaker, I would like to go on with the further question I asked.

Whereupon I stated on the same day as my first supplementary: "Mr. Speaker, Treaty rights are granted by the federal Government. What action does this Mi nister plan to 61 1 take with his colleagues in Ottawa to ensure that our municipalities are not suffering any loss of revenue whatsoever and ensure that Treaty rights are not violated?" Whereupon the Min ister replied: "Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to you, as I have indicated to the House, that I am quite willing to sit down and discuss this issue with the two Parties opposite to see whether there is some result to this matter.

It is certainly a matter that takes some decision-making but before I receive legal counsel or advice on this matter, I simply will not discuss the matter publicly. I think it would be detri mental to the result of the issue in the long view if we did tha t." Mr. Speaker, in my final supplementary, I said: "The fact remains that Treaty rights were originall y granted by Ottawa but the spirit of that legislation was to exempt the property on the reserves. He has to be in touch with his colleague, the federal Min ister of Northern Affairs, to ensure that, (

a) there would be no loss of revenues to any rural municipalities, and (

b) that Treaty rights would be respected. Will he be in touch with his colleague in Otta wa over this issue so that we can then sit down and discuss it amongst all the three Parties here in Manitoba?" The Min ister replied, "yes," and now Mr. Speaker, we have had those conversations, he has said yes, but he has not. He seems to feel that we here in Manitoba should uni laterally change the Act without consulting the municipal people, without consulting the Indian bands, without even admitting th at the fed eral Government has a responsibili ty in this whole matter.

The fact remains too that we were supposed to get together over thi s in a co-operativ e fashion. When a Minis ter comes and makes veiled threats that he will blame his lack of action, the Government's lack of action on this very crucial issue on the Opposition Party, I do not like that, but I could have bit my tongue. When the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) of the province and the Minis ter of Culture and Heritage (M rs.

Mi tchelson) in this Chamber and outside this Chamber go out there and make totally, completely false statements about me, well then I realize they have no honour and, therefore, I am not held to my word to that Min ister. Mr. Speaker, what gets me on this whole issue is that -(Interjection)-well, the portfolio without Mini ster from Portage is quacking again. I do not know what he does at Cabinet meetings, serve coffee or something, but- Anyway, I digress from my notes an d, contrary to what the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) believes, we are allowed to use notes. But you know, Mr.

Speaker, to have the gall to accuse me whose maternal grandpa rents came fr om Fr ance and my pater nal gr andpa rents came from the Gr uyere di strict of Switzerland of being anti-French, is ludicrous. Ma posit ion durant toute la campagne, durant !' election de 1986, elle est consistante avec celle du Parti conservateur. (Translat ion) My position throughout the campaign during the 1986 election is consistent with that of the Conservative Party.

Thursday, June 15, 1989 (English) Well, I hear someone on the other side. I believe it is the Minis ter of Education (Mr . Derkach), who does not know what a sibling is, mention whose side are you on this time? Well, obviously we know whose side they are on, because when Mem bers that dress up lik e the Ku Klux Klan, have Minis ters of the Crown go out there and shake hands with them and the First Ministe r (Mr. Filmon) does not even demand their resignation, never mind apology, we know whose side they are on. That is racism at its worst, I think, anti-French and anti-Indian and also anti -multicultural.

So do not make any allegations, despite the fact that the Min ister of Highways (Mr. Albert Driedger) at the annual convention of the Yellowhead Conference thought they were ghosts. Well, it will probably win you some votes in some quarters, but in the long run you lose. Well, I hear the lapdog from Lac du Bonnet make comments out there, an ex-Li beral. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (M r. Praznik) , on a point of order. * (15 00) Mr. Darren Pra znik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr ..

Speaker, I believe it is unparliamentary to refer to any Member of this House as a lapdog and I am offended by that statement. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would have to ask the Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Roch) to kindly withdraw those remarks. As he knows, all Mem bers are Honourable Members. Mr. Gilles Roch (Sp ringfield ): Yes, yes, Mr. Speaker, I am withdrawing the comment. I know he is very sensitiv e and I guess I should not have said that. He is well-known throughout his constituency as that, but I withdraw the comment.

But it is kind of ludicrous for even him to make comments about this whole issue because he was a candidate in '86, too. He ran on the same platform as all of them, and they are laughing. Now, well the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), an ex-Liberal, is talking about changing Parties. The Min ister of Energy (Mr. Neufeld) is an ex-Liberal. The Min ister of Rural Development (Mr . Penner) is an ex Li beral. The Member for Concordia (Mr . Doer) is an ex-Conservative. It is just a- what the heck!-fun place. I have got my main points on the record.

Rather than belabour.the point, I swear, well, I would like to mention one more thing. Given the fact that this Govern ment is professing to support the multicultural community by such actions as appointing Grant Rus sell and taking away their autho rity to dis burse funds, doing it by Cabine t committee, I thirik that is the politicizati on of that whole ·- 612 process. By making it a fact that now groups must go see them to obtain monies, I believe that will lead to the politicization of the whole process. I think that is pork barrelling possibly, and let us not forget, Mr.

Speaker, that of all the actions that this Government has taken to date and will take for the next year or two or whatever, let us not forget who is keeping them there, it is the New Democratic Party. Possibly they are still governing this province, I do not know. Maybe they have joint caucus meetings. So let the NOP not think that they are squeaky clean in all this, because th ey are pro pping up this Government. The proof is in the pudding.

With their recent appointments, with their recent actions, the Conservative Party has lost virt ually all support from the multicultural community and the support that the NOP once had has virtually evaporated. Mr. Speaker, when I sat in Opposition with the Tory Caucus and was critic for Culture, Herita ge and Recreation, it was not regarded as important. I built up some good contacts and good followings within the � multicultural community.

I recall that when the then , Mi nis ter respo nsible for Multi cultural ism, David Crombie, tabled the national Bill on multiculturalism, I asked as many caucus Members as possible to attend a briefi ng being put on by none other than one of their own people, Danny Lega. None showed up. That was the kind of priority they put on multiculturalism in Manitoba. The only one who eventually showed up, because I called him and asked him to because he was my deputy critic, was the former Member for Assiniboia, Mr. Ric Nordman.

To his credit, he was busy but he left the matters he was attending to, to attend tha t meeting. So there was a grand total of three. I attended several functions. Several members of the ethnic community told me tha t they appreciated my presence there where they had grave concerns about my Party and my Leader, the same thi ngs that I heard day after day after day, lik e most of the Mem bers here heard during the last election campaign.

I must say-a nd I digress a little bit too right now it is indeed an honour now to have a Leader that one can respect, that I am proud to be under the leadership of Sharon Carstairs. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) makes comments. He does not realize that his Party's policies have changed back and forth, back and forth, over the years. Ed Schreyer, Du ff Roblin, Sh aron Carstairs have a lot of items in common, but Ed Schreyer today has nothing to do with this Party. Even when the Member is trying to do a draft Schreyer mov ement, Mr .

Schrey er absolutely refused him because of several factors but no doubt because of what this Party has degenerated to. That was known as one of the factors. Mr. Speake r, the proof is in the pudding. This Government and its access alliance has got no support from the ethnic communities, no support from the Francophone community, except for token support here and there. By this happening these past few days, their actions, they have eradicated what hopes they had to salvage this. Now, if they want to continue making these

Thursday, June 15 , 1989 false allegations, we will keep the issue burning. The choice is theirs. Thank you. * (1 510 ) Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. The House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Min nedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Hig hways and Transpo rta tion; and the Hono urable Me mber for Bur rows (M r. Cho rnop ysk

i) in the Ch air for the Department of Agriculture. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HIGHW AYS AND � TR ANSPORTATION Mr . Chairman (H arold Gi lleshammer): Go od afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Hig hways. We will begin with a statement from the Honourable Minis ter responsible. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Hig hways and Tra nsp ort ation ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It give me pleasure to present the Estimates of the Department of Hig hways and Transportation for the year 1989-90. As I have indicated before, I am very pleased to announce a record construction program for this year. Our budget figures are $225 million compared to $219 million last year.

Of this, hig hway construction makes up approximately 50 percent, highway maintenance 25 percent, while the other transportation and related expenditures makes up the balance of the 25 percent of the budget. In spite of the fact that we are saying that this is a record budget for construction in the Highways program this year, I have to indicate that had we maintained our 1982 expenditure level of $ 100 million, just by adding the inflation rate to that we would be spending possibly in the area of $ 12 5 million a year on the road construction.

However, that is not the case and we are still trying to get towards that objective. We believe that highway construction is a very important and necessary component in the rural areas, as well as affecting the city. Some of the major construction projects that are on track right now are the Hig hway 75, the twinning of Hig hway 75. We will be paving 15.3 ki lometres this year and we are resurfacing a portion of 2i. 9 kilometres in the Emerson area.

We are continuing with the No. 1 West near Brandon for construction and paving that is taking place, and we are providing a continuous four lane facility from Falcon Lake to Oak Lake. That is the objective in terms of our four-laning of the Trans Canada. 613 Major interchanges on No. 7 and 101, and also No. 1 on PR 240 are on track and we are moving ahead with them. As Members are probably aware, these are very expensive projects. The interchange at No. 7 and 101, the cost is estimated at approximately $ 13.5 million.

I would also like to indicate at this time that this is the third and final year of the current three-year $20 milli on Yellowhead High way federal-provincial cost sharing prog ram, and hop efu lly we can meet the objectives of getting most of the projects completed this year. The Yellowhead Highway Agreement has recently been revised to allow the tendering of the final phases of the interchange construction of PR 240 and PTH 1 in the fourth year. We will be completing that one next year, and that has been agreed to.

Under hig hway maintenance, we are continuing to restore maintenance on our highway system to a standard recommended by our engi neers. That was in place some years ago. Funding provided in this budget will see all standards restored with the exception of gravelling standard which is still 5 percent below what we consider desirable. Under the RTAC routes, a total of 1, 700 kilo metres of RTAC interprovi ncial routes were approved under regulation in '88. These routes will allow maximum gross vehicle weight of 62 ,500 kilo grams on certain tractor trailer configurations. Staff is continually monitoring this.

As we can accommodate and make changes, based on the structures involved and the road involved, we will certainly do that. We also had announced this year a new Access Road Policy which allows truck traffic weights on certain roads. This is access off PTHs on PR s into communities within a certain distance of the PTH . This basically affects 17 5 rural communi ties and inv olv es 415 ki lometres of access road.

I would also like to indicate at this time that we established uniform speed limits across the province, which were announced, that all PTHs would be 100 kms. an hour and all PRs would be at 90 kms. with a few exceptions where road conditions did not warrant it on PTHs. I think it would help alleviate confusion because until now certain PTHs were 100 and others were 90, and it created a lot of concern and confusion in people's minds. We have that uniform system in place now. Also I would like to make special reference to the 4-H Hig hway Clean-up Prog ram.

This spring, the department again joined with the 4-H clubs in a joint benefit program. One hundred and eight y-two clubs with 3,480 participants cleaned up 2, 194 kilometres of hig hway righ t-of-way providing the club with $32,9 11 to finance their endeavours. I personally went out and had a look when they were doing this. I think it is a great program. I personally would lik e to actually see that expanded. They do a tremendous job. This year when they were out, the weather conditions were sort of marginal at ti mes.

The kids went out bundled up and wearing gloves, but they were doing a tremendous job, I really support that

Thursday; June 15, 1989 though. I think it helps in two ways, it helps clean up the highways as well as it helps the 4-H clubs. I think that is a very positive program. I would like to see that expanded if possible. Under winter maintenance, you will remember that we have just been through a very severe winter with very heavy snowfall. The total winter maintenance expenditure this past wi nter exceeded previous years' expenditures by approxima tely $5 million.

Under streetwork or the grants to cities, towns and villages and roadwork in the LGDs, I am very pleased to indicate that this year's budget will provide for partial restoration of funding for grants to cities, towns and villa ges for street imp rov ements, an in crease of $200,000 to $ 1.5 million. It will also enhance the funding provided for roadwork in local Government districts. We are still not at the standard that we were at a few years ago when there were cutbacks in that area, but we are trying to get back to that. I think it is a very necessary program as well.

Ju dging by the applications that come in from the vil lages, towns and cities, there is a need for this program and I certainly support It. In conjunction with that, we have a new program that I would like to indicate to you, which is the Muni cipal Bridge Assistance Progr am.

This is a new cost-sharing program to assist rural mun icipal itie s in the rehabil ita tion or replacement of bridge s on the mun icipal road syst em, com plements the othe r programs available to municipalities, such as the Grant in Aid Program and the Local Government District Program, by providing for the first time infrastructure funding to assist rural municipalities. This year's program provides for $500,000 to assist municipalities in undertak ing planning and design work necessary to get the program started in the following year. I think this is something that has been needed for a long time.

I believe that we will get good response from the municipalities. The details of the program will be forthcoming in a very short period of time, and we will be notifying the municipalities exactly of the details of it and, hopefully, launch a very successful program. Under Government Air and Radio Services, during the past fiscal year, the department took delivery of the fifth CL-250 water bomber and immediately put it to use in one of the busiest forest fire fighting seasons ever.

We certainly had utili zation of our water bombers as well as seven additional ones that came in to help during the crisis time that we had. There has also been a 40 percent increase in the use of air ambula nce because of the gro wing acceptance of it by both provincial and federal health agencies in northern communities. Othe r init iativ es that we have been proceeding with is the centralized booking. The centralized written and road test booking system was introduced just over a year ago, benefitting approximately 50,000 Mani toba drivers requiring driver's testing and interviews each year.

Service to the public has been enhanced in a variety of ways. Then we have the Driver Improvement and Control Program'. The division of Driver and Vehicle Licensing 614 began requiring prob lem driv ers to complete two National Traffic Safety Institute Courses, namely, the Responsi ble Driving Workshop and the Dr iv er Improvem ent Workshop, which are facilitated in Manitoba by the Manitoba Safety Council. Drivers are identified for these courses through driver improvement interviews or show cause hearings conducted as part of the Driver Improvement and Control Program.

The overall goal is to improve the highway safety of Manitoba by initiating a change to the attitude of driving offenders. * (15 20) Also, we will be bringing in, and probably will be able to give it second reading tomorrow, impaired driving and drivi ng while disqualified countermeasures. I will not go into the details of those at the present time, but we will be debating them during the Bill itself, possibly tomorrow.

I hope that we can get support from all Parties concerned so tha t we can move that legislation through as soon as possible so we can implement these countermeasures, because it will take a certain while until we can bring implementation on � stream. So I think it is pertinent that we move as fast as we can in those areas. Under Commercial Vehicle Inspection Program, this is one of the National Safety Code ini tiatives involving regular periodic safety inspections of all registered truck tractors semi-annually, and all regi stered semitrai lers annually.

In March of 1989, a new regulation was enacted requiring truck tractors and semitrailers to be inspected at regular intervals, and the mailing up of call-up notices was di scounted. The regu lation provides for less frequent inspection of low distance truck tractors which may go up to one year or 25,000 kilo metres between inspections. The re are currently 15 ,013 sem itr aile rs in the provi nce, and 6, 796 truck tractors reg istered in Manitoba, each of which will be safety inspected and brought into a safe operating condition at regular intervals as prescri bed in the new regulation.

On Hig hway Vehicle Safety Inspection Program, this is another of the National Safety Code init iat ives involving inspection of commercial vehicles travelling on the hig hways. Safety inspections are carried out in accordance with stan dard criteria set out by the Commercial Vehicle Safety Alliance. All Canad ian and most U.S.A. jurisdictions are members of the Alliance and follo w identical criteria. In 1988, teams of Vehicle Standards and Inspection officers working in co-operation with the Transport Compliance Branch carried out 950 on-highway truck inspections.

Of these inspections, 123 trucks were found to be free of any safety defects, 7 48 had minor defects and 19 had hazardous. safety defects. The 1989 program includes two teams of Vehicle Standards and Inspection officers, again working in co opera tion with the Transpor t Compl iance Br anch. Inspections are scheduled to be carried out to more than 150 venues at 13 strategic locations during the period between May and October. It is esti mated that --

Thursday, June 1 5 , 1989 approximately 2,8 00 inspections will be carried out during this period . The Off-Road Vehicle Act was proclaimed on October 1, 1988. This Act addressed three main concerns, three areas of concern, namely operator safety, owner and vehicle identification, and environmental effects of off road vehicle usage. I might ind icate that when we proclaimed this legislation that we ran into certain difficulties, we made certain exemptions. Basically, we exempted farmers, if they used the vehicle on their own property would not have to comply.

Also, we made exemption for trappers who have a registered trapline, and we also made exemption for commercial fishermen. Si nce that time, a lot of concern has been expressed and concerns ·have been brought forward, especially from the isolated nor thern communit ies, where we have a defi ni te enforcement problem. We are reviewing this, and we are hoping to come forward with further exemptions that will accommodate those concerns with in the next short while. I would also indicate that we have recently completed a feasibil ity study to identify photo licensing.

We plan to proceed in that program over a period of time. Cabinet has directed the department to issue tenders for the photo driver licensing system and to proceed with development of the implementation plan and ongoing licence renewal schedules. So, we are moving ahead with that and the implementation of it, as indicated the other day in my sort of rash comments that I made in response to the Mem ber for Assi niboia (Mr. Mandrake), there is a time element involved in terms of doing the full registry or getting it implemented. It is quite complex.

I had envisioned , possibly like many others, that it was just a matter of a minor change, and you could have photo licences on your drivers, because we are unique in Manitoba in terms of how we have the insurance portion along with our drivers. It gets to be very complex in terms of how we do that, but we are well on track with this and hopefully we can make up the major announcement on it within a reasonable period of time. So I would hope that-the Members ask, just indicated, how long.

We are looking at possibly having some response in terms of the tendering by July or August some time, at which time then there is still that implementation period, but we will then be on track and committed down the line. We still have an Autopac Review Commission on the division of drivers and vehicle licensing. There are ongoing discussions between my department and MPI C regarding the recommendations of the Kopstein Report. In fact, in the Kopstein Report, I believe we had some 40 recommenda tions that affect the Hig hways Department, and we are work ing together with them to try and get them all implemented.

Under the National Safety Code, the National Sa fety Code is a comprehensive Hig hway Safety Program for commercial vehicles in all Canadian provi nces and territories. The code is a conduct and a set of perfo rm ance standards for the safe opera tion of commercial vehicles. My department has been working for two-and-a-half years very dilig ently on this to introduce the 17 safety standards associated with this 615 endeavour .

I can ind icate that staff, when it was implemented, and the previous Mi nister will probably agree to tha t, Manitoba chose a time frame that they felt was reasonable and we have been able to meet that time frame. We now find out that some of the other provinces have not been able to adhere to that and we hope that they will be coming on stream so that we have a consistent plan or a quota across the province. We are also in the process of an intraprovincial record exchange project.

This is a national project which has been developed in the country over the past two-and a-half years to facilitate the exchange by computer of driver and vehicle licensing information. It is expected that all jurisdictions will be on line by September of this year. Manitoba, as well as four other provinces have been ready for some months, but again we have been waiting for some of the sis ter provi nces to complete their system of changeover. We think that is going to be a positive, as wel l.

I have addressed some of the things that are involved in the Hig hways aspect of it, and I would like to also address some of the concerns and happenings in the transportation aspect of it. Certainly, the fi rst thing that comes to mind is the Port of Churchill and, I suppose, sometimes I feel that I have re-invented the wheel because problems have not changed that much from the time that the previous Min ister went through this, almost on an annual basis, in terms of tryi ng to get the federal Governmerit and the Wheat Board and all the players involved to util ize to the maximum the Port of Churchill.

For a whi le, it has looked very dark for the utilization of the Port of Churchill this year. However, I think we have a glimmer of hope that there is going to be some more activit y again. I think, as Members are well aware, that our role in Manitoba is not a decision-making role in there. Our role is basically a matter of lobbying and influencing as much as we can with some-and we are having, I have to admit, a difficult time of it when you have a federal Government that has not necessarily been that receptive or as positive about the Port of Churchill as we would like to have them.

We also have strong lobby groups from the St. Lawrence Seaway who feel that they want more action as well, and we have all kinds of other lobb y factors involved. What I have done, I have requested the federal Minis ter of Transportation to remove the Churchill line as a grain-dependent line.

We feel that this could lead to some positive competition for CN, in terms of other commodities that can move through there. * (15 30) I am sure that during our Estimates process that we will be having a fair amount of discussion on the Port of Churchill and we are looking at ini tiatives that can probably go into more detail later on in terms of what has happened. We still feel that there is a future for Churchill and I want to indicate that in my dialogue with the federal Minis ter that my staff and his staff are supposed to be meeting and we will both meet again, as Min isters, in the fall.

Somehow I do not know whether

Thursday, June 15, 1989 we are getti ng that message across quite as strongly as we would want to, but I am still trying to hold the federal Min ister to that timetable if at all possible. I would also like to indicate that I have writte n, after verbal discussion with the Min isters of Saskatchewan and Alberta, I have written them to ask them to continue to start funding again the Port of Churchill Development Board. We have put our money in.

We continued to fund that program last year on our own, and I am quietly optimistic that we will get positive response from the other two provinces in terms of participation. I want to indicate that the ERDA agreement expi red March 31, 1989. Manitoba has met all their obligations under the agre ement. Ho wever , the fed eral commitm ents outs tanding there are still some commit ments outs tanding un der the Chur chill Subsidia ry Agreement. One includes the Air Terminal Opera tions Building, and Pha se 2 of the Railw ay Roadbed Stabil izat ion Study.

We have indications that the Railw ay Stabili zation Study should be completed by this fall. We are very anxiously awaiting that. Once it comes forward , I would like to certainly have all Members of the Legislature, who are interested, to be apprised of it and look at what our alternatives would be after that. Also, under the Transportation Dev elopment Subagreement, the University of Manitoba, Transport Institute, will receive $240,000 for operating costs and $300,000 for program development for '89-90. Our policy people were also very involved in the Aspen Airli nes.

We were finally successful in striking an agreement with them. In fact, I have to indicate that two of my staff people, namely Rolly Savoie and Jim Wallace, have been very active in the negotiations that took place. We finally made an announcement some time ago, and I want to indicate to Members here that tomorrow afternoon and on Saturday, the inaugur al flight is taking place. I am very pleased to be p�rt _of that fi rst inaugur al flig ht. Unfortunately, I cannot rnvrte anybody else. I want to indicate thoug h, I promise to report how things went when we get back to the Estimates on Monday.

I would also like to indicate that we are negotia ting at the present time to have Cana dian Airli nes International construct a new maintenance hangar in Wi nnip eg. We rea liz e a decision will probably be forthcoming very soon and we hope it is a positive one for us. Certa in ly, in terms of inv estment and employment, it would be a real boon for us. Another thing that I could touch on possibly is our contin ued concern about rail abandonm ent. Governments in the past and present have taken a position and put forward concerns as to the process of rail line abandonment.

Another area of major concern that we do not know exactly what will be happening is the discussion that is now taking place in terms of paying the producer. I think these are things th�I we have to monitor very closely. I hope we have some input from my department in terms of the potential impact it would have on our road system. . I would just like to indicate at this time that the trucking'dereg ulation -we have had some concerns - 616 expressed from time to time. I have had extensive lobbying from people from other provinces that we should escalate the program.

However, we feel that because we are a major transpor tation centre in Canada, we export transportation services. I feel very possessive of that. I feel the transportation industry to Manitoba is simil ar almost to the oil in Alberta or the potash in Saskatchewan. We have chosen, of course, to take the maximum time that was established by ·federal legislation so that we feel that we can take as much time as we can, until possibly January 1, 1993, when deregulation is supposed to be in place. We hope by taking a slower approach to this that it will allow the industry to sort of find itself.

By carte blanche deregulating, we feel there wou ld be a lot of turmoil, a lot of maybe unfortunate bankruptcies taking place. We feel the slower approach is something that is going to be beneficial for the transportation industry for this province. In spite of the fact that there is possibly somewhere in the area of 150 applications, we have a backlog. It is moving a little faster now and we feel we are accommodating at the speed that we feel comfortable with. This does not necessarily meet with the approval of other provinces, basically provinces like Alberta, who have been deregulated virtually all the time.

So, these are the carriers. Most of these applications, if I might add, are not from within province. They are from out of province to get authority wit hin the province. We feel that our approach is justified in what we are doing.

I would like to just briefly touch on the program for the transportation of the mobility disadvantaged in rural Manitoba and indicate that the number of trips provided in 1988 was 11 2,339, which is an increase of 11 percent over the previous year-38 percent of the trips were for qua lity of li fe pur poses, 31 percent were for employment and school reasons, and 31 percent were for health reasons. We think that this program has really been accepted well. It is serving a tremendous service. We had 34 communities sponsoring Handi-van services in that year, in 1988.

We have two applications on stream right now and more coming. We think that is starting to work out better all the time and is very beneficial. I would just like to briefly touch on the fact of what has happened in the taxicab industry. As Members are aware, the chairman resigned last year and an interim acting chairman was appointed who then proceeded with the process of what we had designated that we would do, which would be a public hearing process f?r people within the industry as well as the general publrc. There is a lot of concern that has been expressed by people within the industry.

The hearings have been held and lobby groups have indicated they want to meet with me. I have indicated that as soon as I do have the report and the recommendations coming forward that I am prepared to meet with the industry. To do it prior to that, I think, would be premature. I would just like to indicate that we are hoping to be able to deal with an industry that has had some difficult times and has major concerns. We hope to address it in a proper manner. I think, Mr. Chairman, I have covered maybe not all the items that probably we would want to be discussing

Thursday, June 15, 1989 but these are certainly some of the ini tiatives that have taken place. With those comments, I am prepared to try and answer any questions. We will try to be as forthright and honest with our answers as we can. If we do not have the immediate information here, I can indicate that we will certainly get the informa tion. With those comments, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minis ter. We will now have the customary reply by the critic of the Offi cial Opp osition, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake). Mr.

Ed Mandr ake (Assiniboia): Fi rst of all, I would like to thank the Min ister for his statement. I noticed in the Hansard that in previous years, in 1987 in particular, the critics at that time were provided with a printed version of the speech. I was just wondering, is this cancelled or are we going to continue on with that share process? Mr. Albert Driedger: I have to apologize. I have a whole bunch of material here which was basically prepared and what I tried to do instead of going through it in total detai l, some of it I did, I sort of went with synopsis to some degree and ad libbed.

If there is some area specifically that the Member would want, I would be very pleased to give him that portion of my notes that I have here, if that would be accommodating. * (1 540) Mr. Mandr ake: No, I just thought it was a procedure that would follow as, say, a parliamentary procedure. If not, let us leave it at that, Mr. Chairman. Before I go into my speech, I would like to have only one item corrected which is on record. The Min isters had said, "He was not even a Member of that committee and that he is the critic of Hig hways and Transportation under whose juri sdiction that should be.

That shows the confidence that obviously the Liberals have in this Member." Let me just clarify that. I was sick that day. I had a very, very bad cold. When I found out that they were selecting people for this committee, I set out to crawl here on my hands and knees, unfortunately. They selected very, very good people, our Honour able Members for Nia kwa (Mr. Herold Driedger), Fort Garry (Mr. Laurie Evans), and Selkirk (Mr s. Charles). Every time that this Min ister held any kind of session, they certainly informed me as to what went on.

Let us not have that on record saying that I was not capable of being on the committee. Mr. Albert Dr iedger: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interrupt the Member's remarks. Mr. Chairman: Ord er, please. Mr. Albert Driedger: I want to indicate here today that possibly when I responded the other day that I pr obably was a little agitated and maybe was not relatively very nice about some of the comments we made, but it happened to be one of those days. I apologiz e if I have slighted the Member for Assini boia (Mr. Mandrake) in 617 any way. It was sort of a knee-jerk reaction to his response. Mr.

Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Min ister. Mr . Man drake: Mr. Chairman, to the Minis ter, I suspected that was it. I just thought I wanted to put it on record the reason why I was not there. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I do not think you should let those thi ngs go. You let the little things go and then they get to be big things. Mr. Mandr ake: That is right, exactly. The Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) certainly makes a very, very valid point. Mr. Chairman, in response to what the Minis ter said, I am very happy that he is continuing on with the tree planting program.

I think it is very important that we maintain the beauty of our province. The tree planting program, I think, was in existence in the Member for Dauphin's (Mr. Plohman) days when he was the Minister. I think it should be continued on with the same vigour as it is now. The centralized booking problem bothered me. I raised this question before. We will certainly be discussing tha t during Estimates. I am very pleased that the Minis ter has indicated approximately when the photo licensing program is going to be put in place. I think we have long awaited this program.

I compliment the Min ister of this initia tive and maybe after yesterday it probably will be fate after what I said. The one item that I am going to be asking- maps for example, Mr. Chairman. I understand that new maps have been published. Again, the northern part of Manitoba has been excluded. If I am wrong, pl ease correct me on that. From the last one I received, it did not ha ve northern Manitoba and particularly Churchill in that. Churchill is part of Manitoba.

The Port of Churchill, I am amazed, how is it that the NDP Opposition can go to Ottawa and secure an audience with the Min ister of Transportation and, of all people, the Wheat Board Min ister? I mean, I cannot seem to get that through my head. Yet, when this Min ister approached Mr. Mayer, he said no. What is going on? We will be talking about that in Estimates. VIA Rail is another one that I would like to touch on in my brief comments here.

VIA Ra il-i f we do not show our Mini ster in Ottawa that we are very concerned about VIA Rail, go down there, knock on his door or sit on his doorstep until this man listens, listens to Manitoba. We have lost too much and we can ill afford to lose VIA Rail. Not only that but, if we are going to lose VIA Rail, we are also going to lose the Maintenance Branch Department. They are supposed to be building, I think, it is a $3 million maintenance facility here, and if we lose VIA that is going to be the next on the chopping block. CN Rail is another one.

We have lost again jobs and we are constantly losing jobs, and jobs and jobs. I know the Min ister cannot foresee some of these things but at least why not have possibly one of the personnel

Thursday, June 15, 1989 within hi� pepartment go down there maybe on a weekly basis a!ld, if I have to, on a daily basis, and knock on their door and say now look, what is going on, so they can be kept abreast as to what is going on, on a daily or a weekl

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 20.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8eca030889f8d29fd81a7b396c7bef4a03be2d71

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