April 8,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Wade Verge, MHA for Lewisporte, replaces

Wallace Young, MHA for St. Barbe.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Hutchings): Okay, we will get started.

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Social Services Committee. This

morning we will be reviewing the Estimates of the Department of Education.

The normal format we have used is that, Minister, I will ask you, shortly, to

begin. You are free to make some comments, if you wish. As well, at that time I

will ask you and your staff individually to introduce yourselves.

I will just ask, when you speak, that you identify yourself for the benefit

of Hansard so they can record easily what is being said.

Before I go any further I would like, from the Committee's perspective, if we

could have a motion to adopt the minutes from last night, from the Department of

Health and Community Services.

We did adjourn, but we will be reconvening and I would like to have these

minutes approved.

MR. CORNECT: So moved.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: At this time I would like to have the Committee introduce

themselves. We will start on my right, if I could, please.

MR. COLLINS: Felix Collins, MHA for the District of Placentia & St.

Mary's.

MR. VERGE: Wade Verge, MHA for the District of Lewisporte.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, MHA for the District of Port au Port.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port de Grave.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, MHA for the District of Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

CHAIR: I am Committee Chair, Keith Hutchings, and MHA for the District of

Ferryland.

MS MICHAEL: (Inaudible) office is with me.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

CHAIR: The first subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

With that, Minister, I will go to you.

MS BURKE: Joan Burke, Minister of Education.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, Acting Deputy Minister.

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Director of Finance.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. PIKE: Dave Pike, Manager of Financial Services.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MS HOWARD: Jacqueline Howard, Director of Communications.

MR. LOCKE: Scott Locke, Executive Assistant to Minister Burke.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Are we ready to begin?

We will go to the Committee.

Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: First of all, Minister, I would like to welcome you and your

staff here this morning. I will try to read the questions fast. If you give me

short answers, we are out of here in short order. I am only joking.

I am going to go into some general questions. No doubt, some of them have

probably been asked in the previous years. I know in our high schools today

there is a major emphasis on skilled trades and so on for individuals, to try to

get them involved, because we know there is a shortage of skilled labour and it

is going to be required in the future.

From time to time you hear there is a wait-list with CONA and probably some

of our private colleges as well. When they make up their mind and they move out,

then they have to wait for awhile and some of them get discouraged.

I was wondering: Is there anything being done, or has that been a concern

that has been put forward to your department?

MS BURKE: We were concerned about the number of seats we had available

for the skilled trades at the College of the North Atlantic. In recent years we

have been able to double the number of skilled trade seats that we offer in the

Province, so it has been something we were acutely aware of. When we invested,

certainly that was one of the areas where we have invested.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The international recruitment with the university and the college system, and

I guess that was a part of the Immigration Strategy, I know you made a comment,

I do not know if it was last week or the week before, something with regard to

that particular system. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. Is this

still in place to encourage international students to come to our Province?

MS BURKE: There have been no changes with regard to the international

recruitment that is being carried out by the college or by the university. The

changes that we spoke about, or that I have spoken about publicly, were with

regard to the international recruitment of students for the K-12 system.

Last year, as you are aware, we certainly had some criminal charges laid in

the Eastern District regarding alleged criminal behaviour with the international

recruitment program. At the same time we also did a study of the Homestay

Program, because basically the school boards, through their committees that they

had set up, were responsible for these children they recruited from other

countries.

We had Jane Helleur do a consultant's report. Based on that report and based

on, I guess, what I had seen, I felt that the school board were working outside

of their mandate, which is education, and I felt that liabilities to be too

great with regard to housing these students when they came to Newfoundland and

Labrador. I personally reviewed all of the files from one of the school

districts and I was basically alarmed at what I saw.

We still will provide the best quality education we can provide for

international students in the K-12 system, but the school board and committees

of the board will not be responsible for doing the recruitment or monitoring the

homes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The issue, and I guess this came up during one of the Auditor General's

reports, was the national de-designation - I am sure you know what it is about -

with regard to certain percentages of students, if they were in default, then

there would not be any more student loans made available to that particular

institution.

I was wondering: Has that issue corrected itself? I know that was some time

ago he brought that forward.

MS BURKE: That particular recommendation that we would no longer licence

one of our post-secondary institutions because of the high default rate on

student loans was something that, in Newfoundland and Labrador, we felt was not

an appropriate policy for us to follow. I will give an example.

Sometimes in a College of the North Atlantic campus we may have a very small

percentage of students who are actually on student loans. We often have the

situation where, by far, 85 per cent to 90 per cent of the students are probably

funded, self-funded, or through the EI program. We have had examples where there

may be twelve students who receive a student loan in any particular institution

and, because the default rate is high, it is high on twelve students as opposed

to the entire student body.

I felt, when we look at the default rate for student loans in the Campus of

the College of the North Atlantic, sometimes it applies to only a very small

percentage of the students, so, to apply that policy, in essence, would not be

fair. We have never adopted that policy.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The issue with the new math curriculum, I know there was some concern, there

were some changes, and there were other people brought on stream, I think, last

year, to help with that situation. I know it is going to take a while to get it

in the system because you start at different grades and progress into the other

ones.

I was just wondering: What are you hearing back on that now? Because I know for

a fact, one of my grandsons came home a while back, and he had flunked his math,

and he said: Pop, don't be alarmed; everyone in class did.

I was just wondering; there seems to be something major wrong. I guess with

the new curriculum, do you see that taking care of the issues that many of the

young people do encounter today?

MS BURKE: There were certainly a number of complaints about the program

as it had been implemented. In saying that, we brought in changes. We have not

changed the overall philosophy of the program, which is still the

problem-solving approach as opposed to rote learning. The approach that we have

here in Newfoundland and Labrador is consistent with the approach throughout

North America, so we would not want to put our students on a track that would be

significantly different, because many of our students certainly go on to

post-secondary in this Province or other provinces and they need to be able to

compete at that higher level.

What we did do is we brought in some changes in the curriculum - so changes

in the textbooks, professional development for teachers - and although we did

not change the philosophy of the program there is certainly more emphasis on the

basic skills up front. What we tried to do was balance the program so that,

although we continue with the problem-solving approach, we still wanted to make

sure that the basic skills because that was the primary complaint that we had,

that people did not get the basic skills up front.

We have had very positive feedback from the teachers. We also have numeracy

specialists in many of our schools, which they also see as very supportive; but,

ironically, I have heard from some of the young students, particularly high

school students, who have said to me: Why are you changing the program? There is

nothing wrong with it.

A lot of the complaints were coming from the teachers and the parents, but

the young people have said that to me; they did not see it as a problem.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Recently, Minister, we heard about a lockdown at C.C. Loughlin elementary

school; I think that is on the West Coast. My question is not in relation to

what happened at that school or anything. I guess, as we watch the media across

our country and throughout the world, we see incidents that are happening.

I am just wondering: Your department, in conjunction with the boards, is that

something that is in place in most of our schools now, to react as quickly and

as swiftly as they did? I think they did the right thing, when they were not

sure, but is it a policy more or less now that hopefully will be taking place in

all of our system?

MS BURKE: I have requested that more from our post-secondary

institutions, based on some of the incidents that we see in the media, and

certainly wanted to make sure that they had appropriate contingency plans in

place.

The schools themselves, in conjunction in a lot of places with the RCMP, have

developed these lockdown procedures. In fairness, despite the fact that, God

forbid, anything ever happened in our schools, I see this rolling out over the

next couple of years almost like fire drills: that, just in case there is an

emergency in your school and an emergency could be anything that the

students and the teachers would know what these lockdown procedures are.

Lockdown is just another word for stay where you are or how to get safe in

the room that you are in, as opposed to trying to exit the building.

It is something that has been developed in many schools, but I just see it

rolling out, like I said, as a safety issue, a safety concern, a contingency

plan, for all our schools.

MR. BUTLER: I know, Minister, when your budget came down this year -

there was a not a lot of controversy about it, let me assure you, because we all

know the dollars that have gone into education, and some of the wonderful things

that took place I noticed in the media, and it was not a critical thing - I

think it came from more or less the school councils in conjunction with the

parents - they felt that they were not actively engaged when it comes to

obtaining information in the gathering process to put forward.

Do you get much on that, or was that just one incident that happened on that

particular day after the budget?

MS BURKE: I know that we have an employee with the Department of

Education whose responsibility, and only responsibility, is to be the liaison

with the school council federation. I can certainly ensure that person maintains

the lines of communication that are expected in that particular position, but we

do have a dedicated resource specifically for that reason.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The other issue, I think, came from the same article. The way the

article

read, and I know you are only reading what someone else printed, where the

students were asking for more supports in the school environment and within the

community to deal with mental health and mental illness issues. I know you

responded to that issue. Is that something that you hear a lot of those days

from the various regions of our Province?

MS BURKE: No; but, in fairness to saying that, we are also looking at a

review of our guidance counsellors in the schools, and this certainly has

prompted me, as it did in the past, to ask for information.

There was a study done on substance abuse with students, and I have written

the school boards and asked for some very specific information regarding what

type of substance abuse treatment they do, and certainly how they administer

that type of work in the schools, and the philosophy behind the program, and to

ensure there is consistency and that we do it from a relapse, prevention, harm

reduction, as opposed to a disease model.

I will also now follow up with mental health issues because I feel that we

have significant resources in the community, whether it is psychiatrists,

psychologists or mental health social workers, and I wonder how much of a case

plan is developed and how much is assessed through the guidance counselor as

opposed to the community resources.

I feel we really need to connect well with our community resources, and I

feel that for a number of reasons. One is specifically because our guidance

counselors would not be available from mid June until September and if somebody

has significant mental health issues they need to be connected to the resources

that will be able to provide those services on a year-round basis. The case plan

really needs to sit with somebody who is available to the student, and also in

cases where the services are available until probably 5:00 in the evening as

opposed to when the bell rings at the school. I will certainly follow-up with

that.

I certainly understand that our guidance counselors deal with students with

mental health issues, but I would also very much encourage that we do the

appropriate referrals to the community resources that are available on a

twelve-month basis to the students. I really do not think it would be

appropriate to have somebody with significant mental health problems have a case

plan developed, have it monitored through the school system, and not have it

available for the full year.

MR. BUTLER: Seeing as we are on the guidance counselor issue - and like

you said you are going to follow-up with that - there are two other issues, I

guess, that come back to those people in our schools from time to time, not

saying that we want to admit that it is there but it is happening, and really,

sometimes that is drug abuse and bullying in the schools or on the grounds or

what have you. I guess it comes back to our guidance counsels.

I have to say, those individuals must be under a tremendous amount of stress

wondering where to go with this and how to deal with it. It is happening. It is

happening in my area and I am sure it the same thing throughout the Province.

Not all the students in the schools are like it, but you do have a percentage

that is there. I know over the last twelve months there have been some major

issues on both of those.

How can I put this? I am wondering: Is that only to be left with the guidance

counselors to deal with or can you tie this into the community aspect as well,

like you said, rather than just left with the guidance counselors, the mental

health issue?

MS BURKE: With substance abuse, I certainly have written a letter and I

had very specific questions regarding the type of treatment that we do, or work

that we do, in our schools regarding substance abuse. I have not heard back from

any of the boards yet regarding that information.

With regard to bullying, that is an issue that we cannot lose sight of. It is

interesting in that I would assume it has always been around but it is only

something that we have become acutely aware of, and the emotional trauma that

comes from it, in recent years. We have a Safe and Caring Schools policy. The

guidance counselors have to deal with this issue, but so does every staff person

in a school have to deal with these issue as they see it or where they see it,

whether it is in the classroom or in the gymnasium; or the principal.

We can have expectations in the school regarding behaviour and what is

acceptable and what is not, but what becomes difficult is the fact that bullying

does not stop when the bell rings or when someone leaves the school grounds.

There is access to laptops and cell phones and you meet people in the mall or at

the theatre or in the neighborhood. Those then become areas that we cannot

control as schools or school boards or whatever. We certainly have not lost

sight of bullying and the work that needs to be done in that area.

I also think that we are doing a significant amount of work where it should

be, with the young children, and making them aware of it. In order to make any

real inroads in this there has to be an attitudinal change, and people have to

understand it and the long term effects. The real results are going to happen if

we start working with the very young children, and that that progresses.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, and that is good to know, that that is being followed up

on, because I read the other day, in Canada, I think, there is a child being

bullied every seven minutes.

The statistics also show that once that happens and like you said, they may

be bullied in school and then it goes beyond the school hours. A lot of those

incidents we see on television now, the violence that comes from it, is because

they were bullied, and finally they come back to get back at those individuals.

That is unfortunate. Like you said, where it has to start, I think, is with the

younger people to whom you are referring.

I do not know if it was in Burin or Marystown recently, but they had a

seminar where they were all dressed in pink T-shirts and I think they took a

pledge, more or less, in their auditorium, that none of them would ever bully. I

think that is probably what has to be started throughout the Province. I thought

that was a good initiative.

MS BURKE: Yes. I do not want to get into the Women's Policy Office here

this morning, because it is not my responsibility, but under the Violence

Prevention Initiative and the Regional Coordinating Committees, you will see

activities like that taking place across the Province. I know we had a very

similar event in Stephenville. It was probably with older people as opposed to

the high-school students, but the pink T-shirts and the awareness around

violence prevention and bullying also took place.

I think the Regional Coordinating Committees, which would have a membership

that would involve people from schools or school boards, are probably the ones

behind making some of these activities work.

MR. BUTLER: Just another couple, Mr. Chair, and I will turn it over to my

colleague.

CHAIR: Yes, sure.

MR. BUTLER: We hear from time to time the issues of autonomy for Sir

Grenfell College. I know your budget this year was $2.5 million. I was just

wondering what that money will be used for this year, and when is this

transition going to begin, more or less.

MS BURKE: Well, as far as the transition, this money will assist that. It

will help us do more financial analysis as to what the long term finances will

be for that institution. It will also help us develop plans around areas of

staffing and programming, plans for recruitment, goals for recruitment, how many

students, for how many programs and what programs, how they want to

incrementally build their enrolment, and how they are going to build their

enrolment. Because challenges, certainly, are based on the fact that we have

less students every year graduating from high school, and they are going to want

to increase their enrolment. We are going to want to see some planning around

that.

Basically, this money is to assist with that whole planning aspect of

building Grenfell, and certainly helping it move into an autonomous institution.

MR. BUTLER: With this starting up now, Minister, do we anticipate seeing

legislation on this issue, not altogether in this sitting, but this year?

MS BURKE: I hope so.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I will pass over to my colleague, for a break.

CHAIR: Thank you, yes.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The minister will be happy to know that several of my questions have been

answered, and I will not repeat them, unless I wanted a bit more information,

but so far you have given information to a few my questions.

What I am going to do is go

section by

section and do some questions based on

the lines, and will probably incorporate bigger questions within doing that.

If we go to

section 1.2.01, Executive Support, under Salaries, last year the

budget was $965,600, and the revision was $884,100. It looks like maybe there

was an unfilled position, but just to ask you.

MS BURKE: Yes, we had our Deputy Minister move into another department,

and so we had a vacant ADM position for some time.

MS MICHAEL: Obviously, that is filled now?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Transportation and Communications, spent almost $30,000 more than was

budgeted, what would have caused that?

MS BURKE: You go ahead, Rick.

MR. HAYWARD: We had a significant amount of travel related to our

Aboriginal issues, and most of that required going to the mainland and meeting

with our federal counterparts. In addition to that, the department was trying to

get out to the various areas of the Province more, and in Labrador. We also had

the big Aboriginal conference in Saskatchewan that was funded under that..

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

You do not expect to have that same focus this year, so that is why you have

gone back to $54,300. Thank you very much.

Under Professional Services, $9,500, but only $1,000 spent, but still have

$9,500 in this years Budget. What usually would the Professional Services be

that you want to keep the $9,500?

MR. HAYWARD: Basically, that is a pile of money to deal with issues as

they arise during the year, whether it is to do a little bit of research on

behalf of the Executive. That is in our base Budget and we wanted to keep it. We

spent it the year before, but we did not spend it this year. It is in our base

and we want to retain it.

MS MICHAEL: Sure. Thank you.

The Minister's Office, that one is okay, but under the Executive Support we

have $187,900 which is for Temporary and Other Employees. Could we have a

breakdown of what exactly is covered by the Temporary and Other Employees? Of

course, the book on salaries gives us the details on permanent employees but not

on the temporary.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, I assume you are looking at page 133 of the Salary

Details.

MS MICHAEL: That is correct.

MR. HAYWARD: There are two temporary positions there, a Word Processing

Equipment Officer and an assistant to the Communications Director there. If you

notice in that same page there is a reduction of $67,971 there as well. We have

$120,000 in Salaries there for a WPEO and an assistant to the Communications

Director and some other miscellaneous funding.

MS MICHAEL: Why would they be temporary or other?

MR. HAYWARD: It is basically that we have not gotten to making them

permanent yet through the various processes that we go through, and you might

see that throughout the exercise here today, I think, in our department. I said

to the minister this morning, we have almost 100 temporary positions in our

staff complement, so you will see this throughout our Estimates today.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, because I do have questions. Some of the others are

fairly high, so I will ask when I come to them. Thank you.

We will go over to 2.1.01, Administrative Support. Under Salaries, last year

the budget was $1,296,500, and was revised during that year up to $1,418,500,

and, of course, it looks like this year's budget is based on the revision up.

What was the change last year?

MS BURKE: With regard to the Salaries under that particular line there,

there was a development opportunity. There was overtime there and there was some

cost with the teachers' payroll processing as well, so that drove up the budget

there. Then, it is up from the original budget this year, because the

development opportunities continued. We have additional resources for the

teachers' payroll salary and there will be twenty-seven pay periods.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Minister, what exactly do you mean by development opportunities?

MS BURKE: What is the development opportunity?

MR. HAYWARD: We have an aging workforce, as you know, and we have a

person who goes by the title of Manager of Teachers' Payroll. She is getting up

in years, and we need somebody to backfill when she retires, and we expect her

to retire in the next year or so. We are building some capacity behind her.

MS MICHAEL: Very good. Fully understood.

I am just checking off now, as I go through here. Under 2.1.01, 03,

Transportation and Communications, it is not significant but you did spend more

than had been budgeted last year.

MS BURKE: That was a result of increased postage. Our postage costs were

higher than anticipated, and that is due, in particular, to the resources that

we mailed out from the LRDC, our books and stuff, our centre down in

Pleasantville.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: We also had mail-outs for the Student Financial Services

Division, more so than what we expected, but the bulk of that came from the

textbooks from that centre. We expect it will be lower in this year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under subsection 05, in the same block, it looks like you are changing with

regard to Professional Services, because the budget last year was $58,500, you

only spent $10,000, and you are more moderate this year in what you are looking

for. Is that deliberate? Last night we were told by Health, for example, that

they had two areas where they deliberately were moving themselves down in terms

of the money they spent there, and they did it consistently all the way through,

and Professional Services was one of the areas. That is why I am asking.

MS BURKE: Our contracted services were lower than anticipated and we also

had funding for Professional Services associated with the Sir Wilfred Grenfell,

for that review, that is no longer required.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under 2.1.01, the Grants and Subsidies have gone up significantly. Does this

mean that there have been groups added, or are each of the agencies and

committees getting more money?

MS BURKE: There have been a couple of increases. One is the establishment

of the Craig Dobbin Scholarship, and there has also been funding provided for

the Healthy Schools initiative in this particular Budget here. I can certainly

go through the agencies as well that receive funding under this particular area.

MS MICHAEL: Please.

MS BURKE: Those would be the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institute,

the Councils of Ministers of Education, Canada, CMEC, the Federation of School

Councils, the Community Education Network, the provincial membership in the

Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, the Newfoundland Fine Arts program, the

TI Murphy Centre, Encounters with Canada, the Licensed Practical Nurses program,

the Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium, the Learning Disabilities

Association, the Canadian Education Association, the apprenticeship training

program, there is a program under CMAC, the Pan-Canadian Assessment, the skilled

trades upgrading school fabrication suites, and Healthy Students, Healthy

Schools.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. I have most of those.

Would we be able to have that list sent to us, please, later on, so we have

it for our records?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Just a question: I do know that the Federation of School Councils wanted an

increase in their grant. Did that happen?

MS BURKE: No, but they get $30,000 a year.

MS MICHAEL: That is right. I think they were looking for $40,000.

MS BURKE: In recent years we did put the resources into having a resource

person at the department.

MS MICHAEL: Right. You consider that helpful in terms of the money they

were looking for?

MS BURKE: Well, I felt that with their grant plus the support that they

have at the department and based on all other budget requirements, that was the

best we could do.

MS MICHAEL: When was that new support person put in place, Minister?

MS BURKE: It was certainly after I become Minister of Education.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Last year we were talking about criteria for giving money to groups, and you

hoped to have some criteria put together by last September. Did that happen?

MS BURKE: Yes. There are always requests for schools for money coming in,

and it comes from everything from individual students wanting to participate in

different opportunities to schools who are having students go on trips to Europe

which are voluntary by basis. Then we get into other areas. We try to tie it to

the curriculum outcome. If it is something that we are doing within the

department and it furthers those goals, we certainly look at those requests.

That could be anything from wanting to buy additional resources for the library,

for the math program or for the phys. ed. program. A lot of times it may be

travel for schools that does not necessarily fall under some of the programs

that already established through cultural connections or through our languages

programs.

One area that I think needs further definition - because as much as you

develop your policies of where you want to go with it, the one area that I found

most challenging that I have to continue to have a look at, is for schools who

want to participate in music festivals, for lack of a better word, outside the

Province. It may not necessarily have been competitive for them to get into that

festival, but it also, I think, at some point provides a very broad opportunity

for them, from an arts perspective, to see other provinces and to be able to

perform with other provinces. That is the one that I find most challenging,

because our cultural connections program focuses primarily on the Province and

being able to participate. I know recently we have a number of schools that

perform in Toronto or New York City or other places. I have to say, that is the

area where I need to develop more policy around how we are going to respond to

those requests.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

The budget may have to go up if you start responding to those. They are

getting more numerous.

MS BURKE: Or at least if we are going to be able to fund it, because we

may have to say, no, we only follow our cultural connections program, but if we

are going to fund it, to certainly have some direction around that, as to what

we can provide as well, what would be a fair way to look at that.

MS MICHAEL: Thanks.

I really do wonder sometimes, how they manage to do all these trips, because

the amount of money they must have to raise is substantial.

MS BURKE: It is, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Okay, 2.1.03, Planning and Evaluation, and then sub-heading 03,

Transportation and Communications: I mean, it is not much, but I should ask. You

under spent last year, but you are still maintaining the same amount. I guess

you do need to keep a base, and I am assuming that experience tells you that

that is a realistic median base to have, the $47,800?

MS BURKE: We had some delays in recruitment which in essence affects the

Transportation and Communications budget, so we anticipate we will have those

positions filled and therefore there would be more of a requirement to use this

Budget here as well.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

All the questions about the International Education Program have been asked,

so I will not ask them.

There was one question with regard to the ISSP. I think there was money

announced in the Budget for the ISSP implementation. How much has been set aside

and what will be implemented this year from the recommendations?

MS BURKE: I am going to ask Marian to address that. Marian Fushell, she

is the ADM of the K-12 system.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS FUSHELL: To date, all of the recommendations are in various stages of

implementation. Some progress is further along than others, as one might expect.

One that we have put a lot of time into, because it was a priority of the

minister and of the department, is to have a database for assessments

established so that we can better monitor, and schools can better identify, the

needs of children and reduce the waitlist which has oftentimes been cited as an

area of concern. The database is developed, it is now being piloted, and we are

now preparing for rollout in September.

The alternate curriculum and alternate formats for children with severe needs

are under development, and as curriculum are completed then they are being

provided to schools that require them. There is a review of assisted technology

especially for learning disabled students which is ongoing and it will provide

support and allow many of these students to become much more independent

learners through the use of technology.

The whole area of inclusive education has been a focus for us this year. You

may have heard from your constituents that there has been a lot of work with

teachers and with schools in terms of identifying classroom practices and what

needs to be done to ensure that it is education for all in our classrooms.

Of the seventy recommendations, we are certainly moving forward with all of

them. In 2009-2010, in this current fiscal year, there is $1.65 million that has

been allocated for the continuation of those initiatives.

MS MICHAEL: If I could ask a supplementary question to that: Certainly,

the goals around inclusion are quite positive but very often, in order to make

that work, there need to be higher numbers of teacher aides for the students,

not so much teacher aides but aides for the students, depending on what the

needs are of students. I am not sure I saw it, but is there more money this year

in the Budget to allow that to happen?

MS FUSHELL: No, there is not an increase in the allocation for student

assistants. We are meeting with each of the districts and are looking at,

district by district, school by school, the profiles and what the school needs

to support the children with high needs, so that if there is a requirement of

services, then they will be provided.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: That also ties to the fact, as well, that we continue to have a

declining enrolment. It is not so much that we have not increased the budget,

but probably if you looked at the dollars per student it has gone up because of

the declining enrolment.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we added to the base last year of $500,000 to fix an

historic problem, and that is still there. We sort of fixed it last year.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Then, as you carry on these consultations with the different districts, you

will be able to see if adjustments will need to be made.

MS BURKE: Well, if we had a situation where we had documented needs that

had to be met, we would have to meet them. We should be able to demonstrate in a

budgetary process, quite easily, if we are unable to meet the needs based on the

allotment.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Moving on to 2.1.04, I am just interested in the fact that it is only $1,000;

Administrative Support, appropriations for the purchase of capital assets.

MR. HAYWARD: That activity basically lets us buy a photocopier or

something that is capital. It is an activity that we continue to have there just

in case we need to buy something. We would not have to come to the House to get

a new appropriation in the capital account.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

The Community Access Program, 2.2.01, the Grants and Subsidies are down.

Could we have an explanation of why that has happened?

MS BURKE: That is a result of the students who are hired at the CAP

sites. They are hired from the Youth Initiative Funding, but they are now paid,

for administrative purposed, through the department payroll. It is a difference

of how we are paying the students.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Are there any new sites established, or have there been or will there be this

year?

MS BURKE: There have been no additional sites.

MS MICHAEL: Very good.

Has there been a request for sites anywhere?

MS BURKE: No. These sites are fairly extensive across the Province. Our

biggest concern with this program in recent years, although not this particular

year, has been a struggle with the federal government as they had indicated they

wanted to pull out of the program. I can only say at this point it is status

quo, but in recent years we have certainly had that battle.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

The federal is still in there with the same amount for this year, so that is

good. You hope!

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Have they confirmed that they are going to pay that?

MS BURKE: Have they confirmed?

OFFICIAL: There has been no indication.

MS BURKE: There has been no indication that they are not going to provide

it, so I do not want to say there is indication they are going to provide it. It

is just there is no indication that they are not providing it at this point.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Under the Corporate Services, that would include Administrative Support,

Planning and Evaluation of the Community Access Program, there is a fair bit of

money under Temporary and Other Employees. Once again we are looking at page 133

of the salary breakdowns. Could we have an explanation of the Temporary

Employees there?

MR. HAYWARD: I guess the best way I can say it is, the structural-process

issue with respect to the creation of the permanent positions, some of these

positions are five-plus years old and they still have not been made permanent.

They are core to our business range. It is in every activity from the

receptionists to the clerks and teachers' payroll and anywhere in between there.

It is really a function of getting through the bureaucratic process of getting

these created on a permanent nature, and that is one of our objectives this

year. CAP is in there.

MS MICHAEL: CAP is in there and all of the employees under CAP are

designated as Temporary and Other Employees. The whole Budget is under Temporary

and Other Employees.

MR. HAYWARD: Because of the nature of the programming, the funding is

year by year, but it is something that we are going to try and work on with our

Public Service Secretariat.

MS MICHAEL: They are fully advertised positions in all these cases?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I will take a break now.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

MR. BUTLER: I was not expecting you this fast.

MS MICHAEL: Well, I have been at it for twenty-five minutes at least.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, just another few general questions.

I know you were talking about drugs and bullying a little while ago. If an

incident should take place at a school and it goes to the guidance counsellor or

to the principal, is that reported to government as well as to the school board,

or just to one or the other?

MS BURKE: We do not get reports on behavioural issues or things that are

happening in the schools on a regular basis. There is nothing that comes up to

us. What potentially could happen, I would imagine, is if somebody is looking

for guidance or consultation about how to deal with a particular issue. In the

meantime, they would still go to the board. We would probably be more involved

in just information only, to let you know that something has been happening in

the school, or that has happened, that has been significant.

We would not be involved in the day to day operations of any particular

incident. I do not get a rollup at the end of the week about disciplinary

actions in any particular school.

MR. BUTLER: I was not thinking about little minor incidents, but

something major, where a student tried to do damage to themselves in some

particular way.

MS BURKE: We are usually informed of significant issues. I do not know

what their guidelines would be, but I think probably what would hit the media or

would be of concern. It would be for your information, and then we would

probably ask some questions about what happened, how did you respond, and do you

need supports there or whatever.

MR. BUTLER: The ISSP/Pathways: I know my colleague asked a question on

that and I think the response was that all the recommendations are being worked

on at different stages and so on. I know when that report came down there were

four or five sections. I do not know all of them now, Minister, but I know one

had to with another level of appeal, and you expressed issues on that one. There

were four or five of them.

Have any of those four or five that were put forward at that time been

reconsidered in any way?

MS BURKE: There were four recommendations at the time that we did not

accept, and for the life of me I would not be able to rhyme off the four, but I

do know two. They were around the appeal process. What we said at that time was

we did not need to bring in those particular recommendations. I am sorry. Now I

remember another one as well. The other one was that we would provide, I guess,

a group for parents who have children with special needs, and we rejected that

particular recommendation on the fact that there are many groups out there,

whether for children with Down's syndrome or autism or whatever. There are many

groups out there for parents to connect with.

We did not accept the recommendation on the appeals process because in the

legislation in the Schools Act there is a mechanism for an appeal and how it

should be heard. I guess the recommendation came from the fact that parents did

not understand the appeal process or how to activate it. We have certainly

communicated with the boards and they have all developed bylaws around their

appeal process, so now they are up and running. I would think they will be

modified, as well, as they go through, because this is a new process for parents

to follow.

They are up, they have their processes in place, and I know, certainly, as

the minister, when parents get exasperated and come to my desk with an issue, I

encourage them to go and follow the appeal process that has been set out, as I

would do if it was an income support constituent who came and wanted to appeal

or disagreed with a decision. We put them through this independent appeal

process as opposed to making it political or having the minister involved.

That is where that process should be with education as well, and I certainly

encourage parents to use that if they have a concern. That particular process is

outlined in the legislation but the details of it certainly rest with the school

boards and they have all developed those policies.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

In the Auditor General's report this year he expressed some concerns about

non-compliance with government policies when it came to the francophone school

board with regards to human resources, purchasing and capital assets. I was

wondering if those concerns have been addressed. Probably some of those issues

are dealt with before we ever get to see the report, I know. I just wonder if

you could comment on that.

MS BURKE: My comment on that is, the francophone school board just like

any other school board in this Province are absolutely required to follow the

human resources and the budgetary policies that are set out my government that

certainly govern the work they do. We take that AG's report very seriously. The

board has been informed that hey must follow these policies and we will continue

to monitor, but there is absolutely no excuse for them to be working outside the

policies.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

We recently read an article, and I guess it was a concern expressed by

Eastern district with the marks of graduating students. I think the comment was

60 per cent were graduating as a general status, and they were expressing some

concerns as to the limits they would be able to go on to in post-secondary. I

was just wondering if you could just comment on that. Is it only within the

Eastern district or was it an issue throughout the Province?

MS BURKE: I am going to ask Marian Fushell to comment on that, because I

think 60 per cent is a really high number for people who do not qualify for any

type of post-secondary in the Province.

MS FUSHELL: The Eastern School District, as well as Western and

Nova Central, have identified the number of graduates finishing with a general

status as a concern, and so we have been working together with those districts

to look at actions that can be taken, and they are seeing some gains.

For example, in Nova Central right now academic is the default. When students

enter high school, they go on an academic program, and if they demonstrate that

they are challenged or struggling with it, then there would be a process to go

through to determine whether or not the general is required. Over time it has

become the default for many students because, as the name suggests, it would be

an easier route to graduation, without our young people considering the

limitations that it would have at the end of the process.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, school bus safety: I know the inspection of it does

not come under your department, it is Government Services, but I guess you are

in consultation with your colleague anyway, when we hear issues on school bus

safety. This year there was $300,000 allocated. I know your government, back in

2003, promised a comprehensive strategy plan.

I was wondering: Is any of this $300,000 going into that plan, or will it be

totally involved with the inspection program?

MR. HAYWARD: We will be working with Government Services on this

commitment by the administration. We are going to be working together to address

as many of the issues as we can, and have the consultations with the appropriate

parties.

MR. BUTLER: I know there have been announcements on several occasions,

and I think this year it was $9.5 million to construct a new College of the

North Atlantic campus in Labrador West. When those announcements were made

before - is that money just a carryover? I know it is announced again this year.

Will we see the construction starting in this fiscal year?

MS BURKE: Yes, that is the money we are bringing forward. We expect it

will be tendered sometime in April. There was a significant delay with the

college in Lab West over the site. We had the site selected and we had a million

dollars worth of work done at that site only to be informed by IOC that it may

not be an appropriate site based on their plans for expansion. That basically

brought everything to a halt, and there was a fair bit of research done into

their concerns at that time. Based on that research, we have been able to

continue with the original site, but there was a significant delay based on that

happening.

MR. BUTLER: I go to another group now, the NLTA, and I can assure you

they acknowledge all of the positives that were in this year's Budget. There was

one issue that they did mention and it had to do with substitute teachers with

regards to family leave and sick days and so on. I was just wondering: It is a

concern with those people, and will that be addressed to their satisfaction,

seeing they did not think that is was all covered off in this year's Budget?

MS BURKE: It has been a concern that they have expressed. There is a

Budget there that covers off their leave and we have never hit a point in the

Budget where we have used what is in the Budget. It does cover off your requests

in any given year or it has up to this point.

MR. BUTLER: Under school infrastructure and maintenance repairs, I think

it is $40 million that has been allocated for this year's Budget, for repairs

and maintenance within the schools. I know in the district profile I have, there

are a couple of projects listed for that particular area, the roofing on two of

the schools.

Can a list be provided of all the projects that will be going ahead this year

similar to those that I received in my profile?

MS BURKE: It is actually easier to provide the list of what was completed

as opposed to what will be completed because of the fact that a lot of times it

depends on if they can get the work they may have a work plan for the year,

but it may be difficult sometimes to get projects done on time or where they

need to be. We do keep a significant list as the work is being completed.

They have a work plan that outlines what they would like to get done, but I

find obviously it is more accurate to get the list. We can update that

periodically, as well, about how many roofing projects, window projects, you

know, where things are.

Sometimes they may have intentions to do a certain project, but because a

priority pops up because of moisture in a building or whatever, the emphasis

switches right away and some projects may get delayed for that. At any given

time we can certainly provide lists of what is planned and also what has been

completed.

MR. BUTLER: Can we get a list of what is anticipated, not to hold it

against them if they do not get them done for whatever reason?

MR. HAYWARD: This year we have taken the list of priorities from the

board and merged them with some of the issues that we have had identified, and

we have sent it back to the board now to get consensus on what we mutually agree

would be the priorities of both the department and the board. Once we get that

signed off, I can provide that. That might take a few weeks or a month, but it

will not be very long, and we will put it on out list to get to the Committee.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

MR. HAYWARD: It is subject to change as the minister noted.

MS BURKE: It is a plan.

MR. HAYWARD: It is a plan, and when you put it out there publicly there

is always a risk that

MS BURKE: You are telling someone that it is getting done and all of a

sudden it does not get done, and that is why. It is what it is.

MR. BUTLER: I thought when I got my profile it definitely would be done

this year, right.

MS BURKE: I am pretty sure it will be, if we put it there. The ones in

the profile, just for clarification, are committed.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

I think $121.5 million is going to building new schools, new construction.

Is there any money there for preliminary work to consider the school that we

hear mentioned in the West End of St. John's? Is there anything at all on that?

I am not saying it is going to be built this year, but any funds for ground work

consideration?

MS BURKE: We have money in this year's Budget to hire a consultant, for

lack of better words, within the department, to help us work with the board to

better formulate the plan for St. John's.

When we looked at the three priorities from the board with regards to their

new construction, the three priorities came up as: number one was St. Teresa's;

number two was Davis Elementary; and number three was the West End high school.

We have never said no to the West End high school, but we are just not in a

position in our fiscal forecasts to make any announcements on it at this time.

We want to hire somebody within the department, because there is a significant

piece of work that needs to be done with regards to the high schools in St.

John's. There are certainly requests that we close Bishops and Booth and open a

West End high school, but there is also the issue that we have to either

redevelop or build a new school to replace Holy Heart. We need a big picture,

because in order to redevelop you need to have a plan as to where your students

go during the redevelopment.

I am not saying we will redevelop Holy Heart, but the point is we do not have

that final decision yet. We want to have a good look at the costing and the

logistics of how we address the two high schools in St. John's.

The third priority of the school board, for new construction, was the West

End high school. As a government, we have never said no. We are just saying that

we are not at a point where we can move ahead with it at this time.

MR. BUTLER: It was also noted this year, Minister, a new francophone

school in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and two schools, one was Port Hope Simpson and

the other one was L'Anse-au-Loup. I know they have been announced before.

Could you explain why they did not go ahead when they were announced

previously, and will they be going ahead definitely this year?

MS BURKE: The francophone school in Goose Bay, the tender has been

awarded for that. We announce the school, and then we announce the design, I

guess, and that it is going to tender, and then we announce the tender has been

awarded. Sometimes there are a number of announcements to go along that are

subsequent to the fact that we have announced a school. L'Anse-au-Loup, I

understand, the tenders are in; it has not been awarded yet.

OFFICIAL: It closed yesterday.

MS BURKE: It closed yesterday, so there is going to be another

announcement on L'Anse-au-Loup soon because we are going to announce that we

have awarded the tender. I guess once we announce that the intention is to build

a particular school, at different points in time we do announcements to let

people know where we are in those stages of development.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I am going to go to some one-liners as well now. I am going to start in the

back of the book because I am not sure where my colleague ended off, so we will

not cross over for sure. I will go to subhead 4.5.01, Training Programs. I know

last year the budget was $5.8 million and it was revised to $5.2 million. I was

just wondering if you could explain why the $600,000 was not spent last year.

MS BURKE: There was a lower take-up for people in training programs for

the money that is provided through HRSDC for training for apprentices.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 4.4.03, Newfoundland and Labrador Student Loans Program, that $9.8

million, has that anything to do with the interest that you mentioned, or if you

could explain what is?

MS BURKE: Are you looking at the

MR. BUTLER: I am sorry, under Grants and Subsidies.

MS BURKE: Grants and Subsidies?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MS BURKE: That is a result of the lower interest rates.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Under subhead 4.4.01, under Salaries, under Administration, I think the

salaries increased by $75,000. What is that, another position that was placed?

The full amount allocated last year was not spent by $201,000 there.

MS BURKE: That was delays in backfilling some vacant positions. It was

just vacant positions that were carried there.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under the same heading, 4.4.01.05, there was nothing budgeted for

Professional Services and then the figure was $45,000. I am just wondering if

you could explain that one.

MS BURKE: That was funding that was reallocated to fund a project that

was 100 per cent recoverable under the federal government.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 4.3.02, Physical Plant and Equipment, last year you spent $4.7

million over budget. I think that is correct, what I am saying there. I am just

wondering, how was this money used, under Grants and Subsidies?

No, I am telling you the wrong one, I am sorry. Subhead 4.3.02, Physical

Plant and Equipment, Grants and Subsidies, there was $1.497 million unused in

last year's budget, and this year's budget is increased by $13 million. I am

just wondering if you could explain that one.

MS BURKE: That was basically because of the delays we are talking about

number 10, right?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, that it is correct.

MS BURKE: Line number 10, that was because of the delays and the lower

than anticipated take-up with regard to the Lab West campus.

MR. BUTLER: Also the same heading under 01, RevenueFederal, there was

nothing budgeted and nothing revised last year, and this year it is $4.5

million. What would that account for that was not in there last year?

MS BURKE: That is as a result of the program announced for post-secondary

infrastructure by the federal government. We have applied for funding on a 50-50

cost-shared basis for that, so we have allocated money in our budget. Whether or

not that is used will depend on whether or not the federal government approves

our applications. That was part of the infrastructure budget of the federal

government.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 4.3.01, under Grants and Subsidies again, last year I

think it was approximately $4.7-plus million over budget. I was just wondering,

how was this money used?

MS BURKE: Do you want to speak to that?

MR. HAYWARD: The federal government had some funding available at the end

of the year to reimburse the college for some extra seats, and they provided

that funding in this fiscal year. The number was around $4.8 million overall.

That was a contribution by the federal government to reimburse the college for

extra costs over and above a capped agreement that we have with the federal

government, the HRDC funding.

MR. BUTLER: Under 4.2.02, the budget last year was $36.8 million but only

$16.1 million was actually spent. I was wondering if you could and this year

it has gone to $32.8 million again, under Grants and Subsidies, 4.2.02.

MS BURKE: That reflects the cash flows that we had for our approved

projects, our infrastructure projects, so we were able to flow through last year

and what we anticipate the work that we will be able to get done this year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I guess under the federal revenues, under the same heading, where there was

nothing last year, it is the same explanation that you gave on the other one.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Mr. Chair, that is it for me for a while.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I will ask a couple of questions based on those last sections so I do not

have to go back to them.

Minister, the 2005 White Paper and the Skills Task Force 2007 report, could

you give us an update in terms of what is being implemented so far from these

two reports, and are you responding to all of the recommendations?

MR. HAYWARD: On behalf of the minister, I would like to speak to that. I

will try to summarize as best I can.

We have included, over a four year period, approximately $136 million for

White Paper initiatives, in total. The College of the North Atlantic

grant-in-aid has gone up by $9.3 million; government's investment in the tuition

freeze at the college, a four year total, has been $7.3 million. We did an

Aboriginal facility in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, $250,000. We have committed to

some CNA upgrades of $4 million, infrastructure requirements, fundraising at the

college, again $2.4 million.

Government's investment in MUN operating grant-in-aid over that four year

period was $24.9 million; government's investment in the tuition freeze, $38.7

million; world participation and distance delivery, $2 million; Memorial

University Grenfell College funding, $4 million; and the research capacity IRIF

funding to date, $32.5 million. We have also provided some infrastructure

funding to the university, $9.6 million, and student financial assistance

improve debt management measures, $4.9 million.

That is the White Paper.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Could I ask you one question? I have a whole list of concerns we have, but I

am not going to read them all out. What I might do is put these to you in

writing. I am just wondering in some areas, for example, with regard to

Aboriginal participation in post-secondary, are you tracking? Has there been any

increase in Aboriginal enrolment in post-secondary institutions, the university

and the college?

MR. HAYWARD: I would have to research that one; I am not prepared on that

one.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, fine.

What I might do is put in writing a few areas that we would like to have an

update on, which are beyond what you have listed us. Maybe that would be the

best way to go. We will probably put it in writing to also be part of the

record, but I will pass it on to the Chair later, if that would be okay.

MS BURKE: Yes, and in fairness in saying that, I do not have with me the

list of recommendations from the Skills Task Force or the White Paper here today

to speak to directly.

MS MICHAEL: Right, yes.

It would be good to have a discussion, so if we put this in writing then

maybe at some other point we could have a meeting to talk about it. I know this

is not all about policy, it is about the financial, but there are some

recommendations which take money well, they all take money, I guess, even if

it is promotion it takes money, but maybe that might be the best way to go.

Do you have any information at all on the Skills Task Force? If you do not,

that is fine. I can understand. You do not have specifics?

MS BURKE: We do not have the specific recommendations here, so I do not

want to start stabbing in the dark trying to remember which ones I can speak to

- I may forget some - but we can certainly provide that information.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, fine.

As I said, maybe then down the road we could have a meeting some time just to

talk about these two reports.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

One other thing from the last sections that Mr. Butler went at, I do not have

questions but I just have to say, because of your comments, Minister, that I do

hope Holy Heart is not going to be torn down, and that it is going to be

rejuvenated. I know the work it needs done, but as a graduate of Holy Heart I

really hope the building is going to stay. I had to make that comment.

MS BURKE: I think there are many people who share your views. As a

department, we need to make that decision as to whether we redevelop or build a

new one. If we redevelop, we have a significant issue as to where we put all of

these students for a couple of years to do that. It is not an easy decision to

be made.

MS MICHAEL: No, it is not.

MS BURKE: It needs significant planning.

MS MICHAEL: It does, yes, it really does.

I am glad to know, actually, that the energy is going into the planning, that

it is being taken very seriously, that it is not an easy decision to make. When

it was first coming from the school board it just seemed to be all happening

quickly, so I am glad to see that planning is going into it.

Just another question with regard to the musical, or not just musical

development but the repairs and additions to schools, I was delighted to see,

obviously, in the budget, that Virginia Park Elementary is going to have the

requested work done. Are you now in consultation with the school board about

that, and the fact that that money is in the budget?

MR. HAYWARD: The most immediate issue we wanted to deal with there was to

get the consultant appointed, and I think that has been done.

MS MICHAEL: Good.

MR. HAYWARD: Then we will have deliberations with the school board with

respect to the size of the footprint or the box.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HAYWARD: We think we know what we need there with the enrolment

projections. We do not think that will take too long, but we needed to get a

consultant to start doing the drawings and to get a plan to commence our

discussions with the school council and the school community.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: It depends, too; we also have to build into that process what

work needs to be done and what can be done while the school is open versus when

the students are not there.

It is not as straightforward as going and doing it, because if you set up a

work site that is not a safe environment, well, we have a small window of time

to do that or we have to start moving the students. That has to come into play

as well.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

As you said, you will be including the school council in this because they

have their concerns about whether it should be K-6 and then the implications of

that, of course.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

MR. HAYWARD: I think that decision has been made, though.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, has it?

MR. HAYWARD: I think the school board has concluded that it is K to -

what is it?

MS MICHAEL: It is K-3 now.

MR. HAYWARD: It is a K-3 now, with a very similar catchment area, so I

think that

MS MICHAEL: So there is no change in the position on that? Maybe that is

an issue for me to bring up with the school board as well, which I have done,

and I have written them, but also to say here that I think since they first

started this discussion there are so many new developments happening out in that

area, especially with Pleasantville coming in, and the housing developments

there. At two of the Pleasantville public sessions that we attended, the issue

was raised both times about school possibilities.

It seems to me that I think the school board does need to rethink the

catchment area and the population of that school; because, if you are talking

about Pleasantville, the logical school to do take-up from Pleasantville would

be Virginia Park Elementary.

I do not think that decision should be made based on work that was done three

years ago or four years ago, because the new developments in that area, housing

developments, were not considered, I do not think, adequately.

MS BURKE: In all fairness, we can certainly ask them to have a look at

the projections for Pleasantville and the catchment area. That is not a problem.

We can certainly ask to have that part of the planning process.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Now I will go backwards. I got mixed up with my papers because I was

following Mr. Butler, and I have to find my papers now, where I was.

I want to start with

section 3.1.01, so we are going back. I do not want to

repeat unnecessarily. So 3.1.01 which is the Teaching Services, there is not a

lot to ask about there, but just a couple of questions. It is more a policy than

budget and you have answered a couple of the questions I wanted asked under

there.

One has to do with guidance counselors. We are hearing that some rural

schools are using some of their teacher allocations for guidance counsels, and

guidance counselors really are important. The Federation of Student Councils

would like the guidance counselor ratio changed, the student to guidance

counselor, from 1 to 5 to 1.35 students. Are you giving consideration to that

and have you heard from the rural areas about the need for guidance counselors?

MS BURKE: We are looking through the ISSP report at what would be an

appropriate ratio for guidance counselors and there is just one caution. If we

change the number now we would not have enough guidance counselors to do it. I

guess we are in a little bit of a catch 22 on it. We just cannot change it

significantly and then feel that all of the positions would be filled.

What I found lacking in the system, when we looked at guidance counselors

specifically, was the whole lack of accountability as to: How do we monitor or

measure what a guidance counselor does? I will give you an example. I have had

parents say to me that they have been waiting for years to get an assessment

done, and when I ask questions on it, I realize that when an assessment is

requested there is no system that is entered into for assignment or timeframes

around it or content guidelines or quality control on that report. We are in the

process of trying to set up that system and, as Marian Fushell, the ADM, has

indicated, we are hoping to roll that out in September.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: If you ask us today how long a particular student is on a

waitlist for an assessment or how many assessments are on any particular

guidance counselor's desk that need to be done, we do not provide those stats.

It was very difficult to change the ratio if you really did not have that

quantitative information to deal with.

We are actively looking at the guidance counsellors and the appropriate

ratio, but we want to be able to quantify the work so that if you are in St.

Anthony and your child needs an assessment, or you are in St. John's, that you

will get that assessment in the same timeframes that anyone else would in this

Province, and that the report is quality controlled, that a supervisor signs off

and there are content guidelines. What you get in one part of the Province will

basically be the same type of information, the same flow, that you would get

anywhere. That whole consistency and the way that we quantify that work is not

there, but we are actively looking at that and working towards that end.

MS MICHAEL: You did talk about that last year as well. So you are saying

you hope that you will have that whole database put together by September this

year?

MS BURKE: Well, we do have somebody hired who is actively working on it,

and I have met with him a number of times and reviewed the process. It is being

piloted and rolled out, and we are hoping to have it out in September. It is an

active piece of work that is certainly moving ahead in the department.

MS MICHAEL: Great.

Minister, with regard to the new teacher allocations, when the numbers came

out, et cetera, about the change in the class sizes and the reallocation of

teachers, there were some schools that did not seem to be very happy. I think it

was in more rural areas where it happened, or smaller schools. I am sure you

have monitored that.

How are things panning out?

MS BURKE: Well, amazingly, when it all settled we had thirteen classrooms

in this entire Province well, that the cap supply (inaudible), it is rolling

out so it is not all the classrooms yet that did not fall within the cap size,

and most classes were over by one or two students, and that happened after the

allocation.

In Central Newfoundland we had the case where a couple of students moved in

after the fact, but we were able to get it right on, with the exception of

thirteen classrooms in the entire Province.

MS MICHAEL: That is very good.

MS BURKE: Because any given year, even if you hit it right on by June, it

is not going to be 100 per cent in September, because of people moving around.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

School Board Operations, 3.1.02, under 06, the Purchased Services, there was

quite a bit of a revision, from $1,489,000, to $709,400. Why was that?

MS BURKE: That was in relation to the insurance premiums that are being

paid. They went from being paid in a calendar year to a fiscal year. It is the

same amount, I guess, but it is just the way the payments' flow changed this

year.

MS MICHAEL: I guess the $1,872,900 for this year is probably reflecting

that some extra money has to be paid this year, because of that?

MS BURKE: Right, based on the fiscal year, because this reflects the

fiscal year.

MS MICHAEL: That is right. Thank you very much.

The Grants and Subsidies: With regard to the enhanced school bus inspection

program, do you know anything about that - or should I just save those questions

for the Government Services - in terms of will the money be used to ensure that

inspection stations are properly licensed and defects better addressed and those

kinds of issues?

MS BURKE: That would be Government Services.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, I will save those questions until then. In the interest

of time, that is good.

One thing that the Federation of School Councils has been calling for, for

operators, is for them to have emergency first aid certificates and for trained

bus monitors to be placed on routes that need them.

Is there any discussion going into that?

MS BURKE: We will certainly check that out, on the first aid, because we

have buses that are board owned and we also have contract buses as well. There

is money there for training, safety training and that. They can certainly take

up that money, if it is for first aid or whatever priorities they feel they need

on those buses.

MS MICHAEL: I take it that the same requirement would have to be there

for the contractors.

MS BURKE: Oh, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Would they have to pay for their own training or would they

receive the money for the training?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, they would get training funds from us.

MS MICHAEL: Good.

MR. HAYWARD: As I said, in our contracts in remote areas we make sure

that the bus drivers have cell phones and/or satellite phones. I am pretty sure

that we have first aid kits on the buses but I am not 100 per cent. I was not

prepared and I will have to check into it for you.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

The next

section where I have a question will be 3.1.04, School Supplies.

There was a revision in last year's budget up from $8.8 million to $9.2 million.

Was there something unexpected there?

MS BURKE: There was funding provided so they could get the electronic

storage devices for the school districts. That was something that we did not

necessarily anticipate. Then, this year we increased the budget there because we

increased the funding for the skilled trades program and textbooks, but it was

the electronic storage devices that increased it last year.

MS MICHAEL: Great.

I think I know this. You may have said it in the House, but I cannot

remember. Are the new schools, this year, involved in the skilled trades

program? Is that program increasing?

MS BURKE: Yes, that is going to continue to roll out.

MS MICHAEL: That will continue to roll out, okay.

What is your ultimate goal, Minister, with regard to that?

MS BURKE: The ultimate goal would be that any schools that have a

sufficient population of high school students, and I say that because we have

some very small schools that will not see the skilled trades because it will not

be an option, but any schools that have the population to be able to have this

program, and there are a number - what is the number, Marian, the number of high

school students?

MS FUSHELL: There are 138 schools that have

MS BURKE: The ones that have the program.

MS FUSHELL: There are sixty-two right now and there will be another

twelve in September.

MS BURKE: No. How many students in the schools?

MS FUSHELL: I am sorry. Forty.

MS BURKE: If there are at least forty high school students we can

accommodate that particular program. The goal would be that any school that has

the population to have this program should have the program, so we will roll it

out year over year. The other goal is that it provides a choice for students, as

opposed to just strictly academic courses that they can take, and it provides

meaningful curriculum for them to help probably make career decisions; either

they want to do this type of work or they do not.

The other goal is that I really have stressed and indicated that 50 per cent

enrolment in these programs has to be female. We have done a public relations

campaign on it. Any time I visit a school, a principal, or school boards, I

mention that. I think we have to keep harping on that message. They have to be

able to demonstrate that they get the females interested in the program because

there is a piece of work that needs to be done on that.

I know we are still in the infancy of the program but I guess down the road

we will certainly have to look at the schools that cannot get females in and why

not. What is the difference in these schools and where is the leadership with

this?

MS MICHAEL: Minister, is there any talk and maybe it is happening, I do

not know with regard to the goal of getting more of the girls involved in the

program of mentoring with women who are in skilled trades, you know, going into

the schools, sharing their experience with the girls, et cetera.

MS BURKE: There are a number of different ways that we incorporate, I

guess, mentors into the school system. We have the career education program, and

there is certainly emphasis there. We also have students who we are able to

bring out into the fields as well, and to the colleges, but we need to keep

working on that.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, yes!

MS BURKE: It is not done. We have to make sure there are mentors

available, there are opportunities available, and that they see role models. If

we are offering career education there has to be emphasis that females come in

as the role models to present in any particular type of career. It is an ongoing

battle. It needs to start. It needs to have a very strong basis on the very

front lines of the teachers who are implementing the program, to understand the

issues and to be cognizant all the time of how they present this information.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Minister.

My next section, then, is 3.1.06. First of all, the Salaries, 01: The budget

began at $724,600, went up to $822,600 revision last year, and now up to $1.1

million.

Can we have an explanation of the ongoing upward movement of the Salaries

there?

MS BURKE: Basically, we continue to undertake a number of projects,

particularly new schools and then the repairs and maintenance. We have increased

the number of temporary staff that we have in the school construction division.

It is difficult to be able to predict in the long term how many staff we need in

that area. I know right now we have certainly increased our funding and we have

a number of projects on the go, so we need staff. I guess there is a reluctance

to go with permanent staff, based on the fact that as we move through this

budget cycle, and probably the next few years, to get a lot of these projects

done, will we need the same capacity in the out years? It is based on increased

staffing right now.

MS MICHAEL: I do notice that there is a large budget there under the

Temporary & Other Employees. It is $858,700. I guess that is reflecting what you

have just said.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Do you have any figures with you on how many workers in the

school boards, for example, are permanent, who do alterations and improvements

to facilities? I know that within the school boards these are unionized workers.

MR. HAYWARD: I did not bring that information, but most of the employees

of the school boards are permanent. Any temporaries would be funded through

project related funding here. Down in the Eastern School District, they have x

number of people dedicated to repairs and maintenance, and if we give them extra

funding through this vote here they might hire a few carpenters or plumbers to

do some work.

MS MICHAEL: Right, but they are just assisting the permanent staff

because it is an extra project or something of that nature?

MS BURKE: Yes.

Under subhead 3.1.06.05, Professional Services, the revision was upward last

year and now up to $5,915,800 in this year's estimate.

Can we have an explanation of that? It is probably related to your first

answer. I am not sure.

MS BURKE: This is an increase in funding to allow us to do work on the

fire and life safety issues, and air quality issues. Then, with our enhanced

inspections we also get building envelope assessments done of all the schools

that we do with the enhance inspections. This allows us to get that work done.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

What is your plan now, Minister, with regard to the air quality issues and

the schools needing new ventilation systems, et cetera?

MS BURKE: We are going to continue with the enhanced inspections.

Government Services obviously carries out the enhanced inspections. We looked at

the AG's report on the recommendations for a better tracking system and we are

going to be implementing the AG's recommendations. We are going to work with the

school board to identify the schools that need the enhanced inspections. We are

also looking at the list as to when schools were last tested, or schools we are

having problems with. The schools boards are in a very good position to know the

condition of their schools to help set these priorities. When we get an enhanced

inspection report done there is also going to be a building envelope assessment

done with that, so we will have the full scope of work that needs to be done in

any particular building.

Our intent is that when we start working on a building we do everything that

needs to be done as opposed to going in and doing a patchwork; because the

windows are leaking or the roof we will go in and patch the roof or fix those

windows without doing the full scope of work in any particular school.

We will be doing up a rotation for the enhanced inspections to know when the

schools are going to be done. Once the enhanced inspection is done and the

building envelope assessment is done, an action plan needs to be done and

monitored to see that the work is being done in the timeframes that are being

set out.

We have the funding put in to address these issues. There is significant

funding there. Any more funding; we probably would not be able to get that work

done in any given fiscal year as it is. We need to, I think, do a better job on

the whole tracking of the work that is being done. It is not that it is not

being done, it is just that we have to be able to provide those statistics in a

more reasonable fashion.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Is that kind of thing part of the data base that is being put together in the

department or is that separate?

MS BURKE: It is a different data base than what we were talking about

with regard to guidance councillors, but it is one that we are developing. We

have to be able to work with the board and Government Services in the

development, because it is not just our work, it builds into what has been

happening at Government Services and the work that is being done at the board.

It is different from the whole guidance piece that we talked about, but it is

also something that has to link very well, and the information has to flow in

from the other sources as well. It is not just going to be built based on our

own information from the department.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, and you have started that conversation?

MS BURKE: Oh yes.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, last year I think the government was paying 92

cents per square foot for maintenance in the schools. Has that figure changed?

MS BURKE: That figure, what we announced last year, is the same this

year.

MS MICHAEL: It is the same figure.

Schools are satisfied with that, the boards are satisfied with that?

MS BURKE: With the other funding that we have in for major repairs of

schools, repairs and maintenance, that funding plus the other funding that flows

through the department, like I said, in this particular fiscal year we will be

challenged to get the work done to spend that amount of money. Like I said, it

is not an issue right now of more money, because I suppose we could do

everything, but we are not going to be able to flow it all through in any given

year. The amounts we have there now are about as much as we can hope to

accomplish in any given year.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

School Facilities, New Construction And Alterations To Existing Facilities,

3.1.07, under Purchased Services I think I probably know the answer to this,

but I will ask it you obviously did not get to do a lot of the work that you

expected to do, because it was revised down quite a bit, from $59.9 million down

to $17.9 million.

What did not happen there?

MS BURKE: Well, we are at a point right now where we have the tenders

closed on Port Saunders, Paradise I, and Torbay. We are going out for tenders on

Paradise II. They are out. L'Anse-au-Loup

MR. HAYWARD: L'Anse-au-Loup closed yesterday.

And the francophone.

MS BURKE: And the francophone is out.

I guess it was dependent upon getting the work done and the tenders out. But

we are at a point now where they are almost all out and closed. It should be a

very different year for us this year than what it was last year.

MS MICHAEL: That is fine, and all the other questions under that are

answered.

Under Curriculum Development, 3.2.01, coming down to 05, Professional

Services, this year the budget for Professional Services is significantly lower

than it was last year.

What is different?

MS BURKE: What is different is we are in the final year of the

development of the high school history course. We had money allotted for that,

to develop it over a number of years, and now we are at the end of that project.

MS MICHAEL: Will that curriculum be ready for September?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under 3.2.02, Language Programs, I am just interested in knowing, with regard

to French second language programs: How many programs exist around the Province

with regard to that?

MS BURKE: Marian, can you speak to that?

MR. FUSHELL: For the immersion programs outside of the metro area there

would be early immersion in Gander, Grand Falls, Marystown, Corner Brook,

Stephenville, Goose Bay and Labrador City.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

The francophone school in St. John's, is that the only first language school

in the Province?

MS BURKE: No, we have five. We have one in St. John's, we have one in

Happy Valley-Goose Bay - that is where we are building our new one - we have one

in Lab. West, and we also have two on the Port au Port Peninsula, one in Cape

St. George and one on Mainland.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

MS BURKE: I will also acknowledge we have our local francophone from the

Port au Port Peninsula here this morning as well.

MS MICHAEL: Trs bien. Merci.

Student Support Services, 3.3.01, subsection 03, Transportation and

Communications, you spent almost $40,000 more in that

section last year.

What was the unexpected expenditure there?

MS BURKE: That was just basically from additional travel costs that we

incurred that we obviously did not budget for. We think this year we can

certainly keep within the Budget that we had, but it was increased travel.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under 3.3.03 I note that the Salaries for the School for the Deaf are

continuing to go down.

Can you give us an update on the status of teachers at the School for the

Deaf?

MS BURKE: We are in a situation right now at the School for the Deaf

where we have two students who are not at least in junior high. They both attend

the School for the Deaf but they are also integrated with Paradise Elementary.

We have opportunities for integration right on site.

We have high school students who now go to Gonzaga, and we tried to merge the

best of two worlds in that they are from the School for the Deaf. They made a

commitment, as their families did, for them to attend that school since they

were five-years-old and they are very reluctant to leave the school. They also

need American Sign Language which is not easy to accommodate outside the city or

outside the school.

We have students who go to Gonzaga but they are still students from the

Newfoundland School for the Deaf. With them at Gonzaga would be a teacher from

the school, or two, a student assistant. As well, they also have what we call

real time translation. It actually comes from Calgary, but they can have

translation done in real time right in the classroom. We have provided as many

supports as we can around them to be able to accommodate them in a high school,

but yet give them the experience of integration to be able to integrate with

other students in a different setting. In fairness, if they graduate high school

and they are looking for work or they are going to post-secondary, integration

is assumed and expected at that point.

We have a situation now where we have junior high students who will move into

Gonzaga, if they wish, when they get into Grade 10. We have noticed that most

students I spoke with one of the parents just last week, one of the students

from the School for the Deaf happens to be my neighbour - are certainly looking

forward to the whole aspect of going to the bigger school, but yet having the

supports there.

We are at a point right now where, within the next two or three years, we may

only have two students. We have no students identified for the next five years

coming into the school. We have junior high students who will be going to

Gonzaga and we have two students left. The School for the Deaf, as what it was

originally built for, built twenty-one years ago here in the Province, and what

we have today is a very different setup.

MS MICHAEL: As you know, there is a real concern. I am going to ask you

one question first: Could you explain to me - what was it you called it? - real

time translation from Alberta, what exactly that is and how it works?

MS BURKE: That means and Marian you can correct me if you want that

they have what is being said in the classroom also being provided in caption

form as well.

MS MICHAEL: In caption?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: There is a real concern among people in the deaf community -

and I share their concern - that there is not a recognition of the American sign

language as being a language, and that this language is being lost for people

who are deaf. The real time translation is another step in that direction,

because the translation they are getting is not into American Sign Language or

coming into the school, more and more the loss of the American Sign Language is,

I think, a serious cultural loss.

I understand integration, but integration at the loss of something that has

been there for the deaf community really bothers me.

MS BURKE: We have sign language available in the school as well. The

interpreter is there and the teacher is there to do sign language, but we also

have young students today who text message all the time, who are on MSN, who

communicate through MSN. There are more forces at play for the young people with

language and how they communicate. I hear what you are saying, and at one point

American Sign Language was probably the only means of effective communication,

and certainly a culture developed around that. We do provide American Sign

Language, we do provide that at Gonzaga, but along with that we also have the

real time translation. A lot of the young people today depend on other means of

communication and we cannot stop that either. We cannot say, no, you cannot text

your friends or you cannot go on MSN and talk to your

MS MICHAEL: No, of course not.

MS BURKE: Their lives and their ability to communicate and communication

devices have changed significantly.

MS MICHAEL: But then face to face, there is still that communication too.

MS BURKE: That is still there. That is why we have the teachers from the

School for the Deaf in Gonzaga, and we have the student assistant there as well,

to make sure that they also have it in American Sign Language.

MS MICHAEL: Well, first of all, to say that there was a very powerful

presentation by the Association for the Deaf at the hearing that was held with

regard to the human rights code here in St. John's a couple of weeks ago. The

rights of the deaf, I think, are what they were certainly promoting, the right

to have their language. If the Human Rights Code recognizes that, if that comes

out in the Human Rights Code, then I think there is a responsibility of

government to do what you are saying. I am not saying that integration cannot

happen, because you are right, when they go into university or a larger setting,

if they choose to go into Memorial, they have to deal with it. I think we also

have a responsibility to make sure that something very important to the deaf

community is not lost at the same time.

MS BURKE: Yes, and that is the key factor as to why we continue to have

the School for the Deaf. It is because the American Sign Language, and that

language development, is just not available outside that school.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

CHAIR: I am just wondering if you want to take a break here.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I will take a break.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, do you have anything?

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I only have another three or four.

CHAIR: Okay, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Does anyone on this side want anything before I start?

Just to go back to 3.1.02, under Revenue right at the bottom, the budget was

$585,000 but revised there was nothing, Provincial, and then it is back in again

this year. I was just wondering if you could give me an explanation on that?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. HAYWARD: Last year, we put $1.25 million in the budget to I am

sorry, $1.5 million into the budget to work with our Aboriginal communities and

our federal partners up in Labrador, in particular, to bring on some extra

services there for our Aboriginal youth. We put in $750,000, and we were hoping

to find partners for $750,000, and that is what that revenue is for.

We have not been able to find the partners for the $750,000. There is some

money somewhere else that reconciles; we are just talking about the $585,000

there. We have been spending our $750,000, but we cannot find the partners to

come on board with us.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 3.1.06, under provincial revenues again, there was nothing budgeted

but the revised was $7.5 million, and there is nothing estimated again this

year.

MS BURKE: That was an insurance settlement from an issue that had been

ongoing for probably ten years, in relation to the Robb joists.

MR. BUTLER: What joists?

MS BURKE: It was known as the joists, the Robb joists, and the steel,

wasn't it, that were in the buildings? Anyway, it was at least ten years, I

think, that a lawsuit was ongoing. That was a settlement.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under 3.2.02, under the federal revenues, it was $4.1 million, and there was

$107,000 of that money that was not used. I am wondering if you could explain

what the reason would be for that?

MR. HAYWARD: That basically reflects a little less expenditure up above,

Mr. Butler, from $5.413 million to $5.2057 million, so revenue is tied directly

to the expenditures.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 4.1.02, the budget this year is $969,000 and that is an increase of

$172,000. Is that another seat at the Atlantic Veterinary College? If it is, how

many seats do we have at that college now?

MS BURKE: That is in relation to the fact that the agreement that we have

with them was not signed until December. We were late signing it, so then it was

retroactive funding that had to be paid.

We have how many seats?

MR. HAYWARD: Three.

MS BURKE: Three seats.

MR. BUTLER: There are still three seats there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: My last question, Minister, is a general question. I noticed

last year you announced that the marking board was moving to the West Coast. I

think that is a good thing, moving it around the Island. I know we had some

correspondence from one or two individuals who said there were some problems

with it. I am just wondering: Overall, how did it turn out? I guess it was here

in the city for quite a period of time. Were there problems with it being moved

last year? If so, were they corrected? Maybe it is not an issue.

MS BURKE: There were issues, but not to the point where we could not do

it outside. It was the first time it was ever done, I think, in the history of

the Province. We took note of the issues, and our commitment is to continue to

identify another place this year to have them outside the overpass.

The biggest challenge we have in a site selection - and I guess it we will

have to keep working on it year by year to see how we do it - is just based on

the sheer numbers and the need for accommodations. We will have to monitor how

many people use commercial accommodations and where we can actually accommodate

them.

We looked at all of the issues we may face outside the city to do it, and we

certainly got that information back. All of the exams were corrected and done on

time and that, so there would be no reason that we can say it can only be done

in St. John's.

MR. BUTLER: What are the numbers? You just mentioned the numbers would be

an issue. What are the numbers you would have to accommodate by going outside?

MS BURKE: There are 300 people involved in the marking board.

MR. BUTLER: I was going to get them to come to the district but I cannot

accommodate them.

MS BURKE: That depends, too. Because it moves to different places, you

may have a higher percentage of local teachers who may not be interested in it

otherwise, who, because they can stay home and do it. Say if we had it in

Corner Brook; well, people from Stephenville and Port au Port might have

commuted. Although we say 300, when you look at the local number that comes in,

and then there are other people who may stay in private accommodations, it is

difficult to confirm how many commercial accommodations you need.

Right now we are basing it on where we have the biggest number of commercial

accommodations available, but as we move forward with that we might have some

interesting numbers that we might be able to move it into places that we do not

necessarily think we can.

MR. BUTLER: That is it for me, Mr. Chair.

I want thank the minister, before I turn it over and her staff for their

co-operation this morning.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: I have a few more questions, not too many.

CHAIR: Okay.

MS MICHAEL: Under 3.4.01, Student Testing And Evaluation, Allowances and

Assistance, subsection 09, what is covered by that?

MS BURKE: Marian, you can speak to that, the 09.

MS FUSHELL: That would be funding associated with annualization of salary

increases for professional development, to reflect what is done there. It is

related to the Excellence in Math Strategy and the professional development that

we have done around the mathematics.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Where in this budget do we find the money for secondary level scholarships?

Would that be under Grants and Subsidies,

section 10?

MS FUSHELL: I am sorry; I was looking at the Allowances and Assistance

under 3.4.02.

MS MICHAEL: Under 3.4.01 is what I was

MS FUSHELL: The 09 is the scholarships.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, 09 in 3.4.01 is the scholarships.

MS FUSHELL: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

MS FUSHELL: I am sorry about that.

MS MICHAEL: That is no problem.

What would be the Grants and Subsidies under 3.4.01?

MS FUSHELL: The Grants and Subsidies would be an Intra-Provincial Travel

Program which allows our high school students from rural communities to go to

sites where there is either a college or a university campus.

MS MICHAEL: Good. That is what I was looking for. Thank you for both of

those things. Thank you very much. You have answered the 3.4.02 already, so

I am sure I know the answer, but just to clarify, under 3.4.01 the salary is

almost split 50-50 between permanent employees and temporary. For the temporary

employees it is $817,100, and I am assuming that is because of the testing. A

lot of that must be because of the short-term hires for the evaluation of

students, am I right? Because it is quite high.

MS FUSHELL: Student testing and evaluation would be related to the

markers and the students that we hire in the summer

MS MICHAEL: That is right.

MS FUSHELL: but there are also a number of temporary employees within

that division within the department, as Rick had referenced earlier, in terms of

numbers of temporaries.

MS MICHAEL: Are those positions also being looked at with regard to

becoming permanent, the ones in the department?

MS FUSHELL: (Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: They are so you are trying to get that changed because

that is a real high one; it is almost 50-50 between permanent and temporary.

Under 3.4.03, Professional Services, subsection 05, you have $300,000

budgeted last year, and estimated again this year, but only spent $22,000 last

year. Could we have an explanation on that, please?

MS BURKE: There were several courses to be developed that were delayed.

Because of that, we achieved the savings. It was just basically on the course

development projects that we had.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

In subsection 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, it was $3 million

overspent. What was unexpected there?

MS BURKE: We had additional funding to replenish approximately 2,500

computers. Then, we also had $450,000 reallocated from supplies for hardware

purchases to support our technology plan. That was all basically into technology

for the schools.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

The Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, was that a one-time thing, because

there is nothing this year under that. This was the whole thing on the

infrastructure for the broadband Internet connections.

MR. HAYWARD: That was a partnership arrangement with the federal

government, the Province and a supplier, to put high-speed broadband into

sixty-six schools in ninety communities. That is finished; it is up and running

and we have managed to get high-speed Internet out there.

MS MICHAEL: I am assuming that not all of our schools and communities are

connected yet, are they?

OFFICIAL: No.

MS MICHAEL: No.

Far from it, I would think. Could we have an update on that?

MR. HAYWARD: This was to deal with our most remote areas.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HAYWARD: So we have some type of high-speed Internet connectivity to

all of our facilities (inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: Really, to all of them?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, through microwave in places. It might be a little

slower in other places, because of the cable size.

MS MICHAEL: But throughout the whole Province?

MS BURKE: We have all our schools connected.

MS MICHAEL: All the schools are connected. Okay, thank you.

Under 3.4.05, looking at subsection 03, Transportation and Communications,

you have $13,200 estimated. Last year you spent $5,500, but I guess this is

another place where you do feel the need to keep a base.

MS BURKE: We do, and we also have a new director hired for that

particular area. Of course, we read out in the Throne Speech as well that we are

hoping to have our strategy developed there. So I anticipate, with the new

director and the development of strategy, that we will need that money this

year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under Professional Services, subsection 05, there was no expenditure

estimated last year but you spent $35,000.

MS BURKE: We have a grants program in that division where we provide

grants for early learning to different centres across the Province, or groups or

whatever, and we wanted an evaluation done. That is where the $35,000 came in;

like, are these effective and how do we measure the results? All kinds of

questions we asked, because obviously it is not hitting every child in the

Province, so how effective are they and how do they record their data, and how

do we know if they are more ready for Kindergarten?

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Last year we requested a list of the grants and subsidies, indicating who

gets the grants and subsidies. I know you may not have one for this year, but

could we have your most up-to-date list of where the grants and subsidies are

going, please? For some reason we did not get it. We asked for it, but did not

get it.

I think those are all of my questions, Mr. Chair, and I thank the minister

and her staff for the helpful answers.

MS BURKE: Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: Not bad, Minister; one minute after eleven.

MS BURKE: I know. Thank you very much.

MS MICHAEL: We promised you we would try to get out in two hours.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Are we done from the Committee?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay.

Call the headings.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to 4.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.5.01 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.5.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education

carried without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without

amendment.

CHAIR: Before we conclude, Minister, I would like to thank you and your

staff for your participation this morning, as well as thank the Committee.

I do not think at this time we have the information on our next session, but

we will have it shortly.

Thank you.

First of all, I need a motion to adjourn.

MR. COLLINS: So moved.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.