Manitoba Hansard — 27 November 1990 (Sitting 33, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session ·Thirty-Fifth Legislature ofthe Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls c. Rocan . Spealcer VOL. XXXIX No. 33 ·1 :30 p.m., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1990 Prlnlfld by the Office of the au.ns Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V Th irty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, Jam es CARST AI RS, Sharon CERIL LI , Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Jam es, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMM ER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTIND ALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON , Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON , Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA- LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITU ENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Aiel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mou ntain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 27, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Loulse Dacqua y (Chai rman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Com mittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) , that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORT S Hon. James McCrae (Mi nister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour and the pleasure to present the report of the Ministe r of Justice to the Manitoba Legislative Assembly regarding the validation of Manitoba's laws. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL 25-THE OMBUDSMAN AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Gerald Duchar me (Mi nister of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCr ae) that leave be given to introduce Bill 25, The Ombudsman Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !' Ombudsman, and that the same be now received and read a first tim e. Motion agreed to. Mr. Ducha rm e: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been advised of the contents of the Bill has recommended the same. Also, Mr. Speaker, I table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. BILL 24- THE ENVIRONMENT AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Gary Fll mon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs) , I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , that leave be given to introduce Bill 24, The Environment Amendm ent Act; Loi mo difian t la

Loi sur l' environnement, and that the same be received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. BILL 2�THE EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS AMENDMENT ACT

(2) Hon. Darren Praznlk (Mi nister of Labour): Mr. Speak er , I would move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 23, The Employment Standards Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modiflant la

Loi sur les normes d'em ploi, and that the same be now read and received for the first time. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Larry Desjard ins, the form er Mem ber for St. Boniface. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon in the public gallery we have from the Oholei Torah Day School ten Grades 4 to 7 students. They are under the direction of Marie Daniel.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Kildonan (M r. Chomiak). On behalf of all Honourable Me mbers, I welcome you here this afternoon. * (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Government Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): For the last couple of days we have been hearing about a Finance Ministers' meeting with an agenda that has

2033 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 a formal and public agenda and an agenda that includes informally and behind closed doors the proposition of who delivers our health care system in this country, an agenda item, Mr. Speaker, that arises from the shortsighted vision agreed to by the Premier of this province in the so-c alled new realities of Uoydminster, a vision of this province that is out of touch with 40 years of Premiers from different political stripes in te rms of the vision of a national health care program and a nat ional post-secondary education system.

Given the fact that our Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) has talked about a possible takeover of medicare by the provinces, then he said he has no preferences, then he said that he may be a broker at the meeting with the Ministers of Finance, my question to the Premier is: Will he overrule his Minister of Rnance and clearly state in unequivocal te rms today that Manitoba will not go to the Finance Ministers' meeting interested in a posturing to take over the medicare system, that we believe that health care should be del ivered by our federal Government and delivered by the provinces in strong federal and provincial programs in this country? Hon.

Gary Fllm on (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, we believe that medicare ought to be financed by the federal Government. lt is their responsibility. Obviously the delivery of medicare has been in the hands of the provinces for some time, and we believe that is the way it ought to be. What the Member opposite I believe knows well is that we have suffered over the course of the last number of years, in fact most of this decade , successive cuts to EPF transfers from successive federal Governments.

We have suffe red, as I reported in the. throne speech debate , some $1 97 million of reductions in EPF transfers from 1 981 until the present, formerly by the Trudeau administration, now by the Mulroney administration, successive cuts that are impairing our ability to have the kind of high quality health care system that we must have in this province.

We are going to do everything possible to ensure that the federal Govern me nt lives up to its responsibilities, and that will be the prime authority and the prime purpose of this provi ncial Government, to ensure that the federal Government lives up to its responsibilities in funding high quality health care which we will deliver in Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I wish the Premier would disentangle the proposed disenta nglement of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) on the issue of health care.

I would like to table a chart that clearly indicates that Man itoba is a net ben efactor of federal- provincial finances. lt is a chart that is prepared out of Alberta , and it clearly demonstrates that Manitoba is not the same as British Columbia, is not the same as Al ber ta . Besides the philosophical and visionary issues raised by his Minister of Finance, it is not in our economic and logical interest to have a provincial takeover as suggested by his Minister of Finance.

I would ask the Premier to table , and rather than having this Minister of Finance acting as a broker or saying he has no preference, will the Premier say that Manitoba does have a preference , and that is that we will not have the provinces take over the health care system? Will he table for the public the position his Minister of Finance and his Government will take to the Finance Ministers' meeting next week? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. * (1 340) Mr. Fl lmon : Mr.

Speaker, you know it is funny how the Leader of the Opposition uses the same informat ion sel ecti vely and in a cont radictory fashion. We informed him of the legal opinion that our Crown lawyers had given us with respect to the case against the GST that he was promoting which said that we should not join in with Alberta, British Colum bia and Ontario because it would have jeopardized our continued ability to get transfer payments from Ottawa because of that very fact that we are indeed bene factors of equal ization payments .

We did not want to jeopardize our ability to continue to get transfer payments from Ottawa. There he was grandsta nding in front of the cameras day after day saying that we ought to challenge, join in with Ontario, join in with Alberta, join in with British Columbia and put in jeopardy those transfer payments. That is what he was doing because it was in, he thought, his political interest to do that, Mr. Speaker. There is no place for that kind of two-faced approach here in this province. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier well knows the question was dealing with the swamping of the Senate .

The Premier goes to Lloydminster and

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2034 takes one position. The Premier comes back in this Chamber and takes a different position. The Premier goes to Meech Lake and takes one position. The Premier comes back with the Minister of Finance and takes another position. What we want to know is- Point of Order Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Go vernment Hous e Leader): The Member opposite has lost control, and if he wants to go into some tirade, there is a better place to do it than in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. He is to put his supplementary question at this point in time. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader. Order, please; order, please. This is not a time for debate. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition kindly put his question, please. *** Mr. Doer: My question to the Premier is: Will he make public the position his Government will take to the Finance Ministers' meeting next week? Will he stop this closed-door propositi on that we saw coming out of Uoydminste r? Will he make public to the people of Manitoba and this Legislature the position his Minister of Finance refused to table in the Chamber last week? Let us stand up and be counted.

Let us see what he is going to state publicly, and let us table it in this Chamber today. Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, both the Lloydminster document and the report of the Finance Ministers has been made public. Both of those matters are the fodder for his questions that were made early on in thi s Session day after day as well as those of the Leader of the Liberal Party. They were the fodder for columns by various columnists, for editorials by various newspapers and by various comments from this.

Our position is that we will do everything possible to protect the interests of the Manitoba taxpayer and the Manitobans who req uire me dic are and post-secondary education in the syste m. We will fight the federal Government, regardless of what political stripe they are, in their continuing efforts to try and offload and cut back on transfers on health care and EPF. Transportation Industry Open Sky Policy Mr. Daryl Reld (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, this morning we learned that in addition to the 3,000 Air Canada jobs lost the day this Session began, Air Canada is now cutting over 300 reservation jobs at Hal ifax , Calgary, Edm onton and St. John's, Newfoundland. The Air Canada building on Portage Avenue which employs over 200 people in the air reservations along with the 3,400 other Manitobans working in the airline industry in this province are anxiously awaiting the outcome of the open sky hearings. My question is for the Premier.

A week ago we asked his transport Minister what position he would be taking to the House of Commons committee on the open sky policy, and we were told that he had none but thought that he could just show up. Has this Government reached a decision, and do they now have a policy that he will te ll this House? What is their policy? Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I would not want the Member for Transcona to leave a misapprehension or misleading information on the record.

The reality is that those job losses as a result of the consolidation of reservations in various locations across the country will not, will not, have a negative impact on Winnipeg as a reservations centre. There will not be job reductions in Winnipeg. In fact, as I understand it, and I did speak with the most senior official of Air Canada in the Winnipeg region just an hour or so ago, my understanding of it is that ther e will be a transf erence of the reservation operations from Regina, Saskatoon and Thunder Bay to Winnipeg. There will not be job losses.

So please, please, I would ask the Member for Transcona not to put false information on the record. * (1 345) Mr. Reld: Mr. Speaker, we would be interested to see any documentation the Premier may wish to table in this House that would support his claim that no jobs will be lost. My next question is for the Premier. Since Geoff Bridges, the Vice- President of Cargo for Air Canada, said last week that there will not be a domestic overnight market in Canada in 15 years as the integrated operators will feed all the major Canadian stations through their major U.S. citie s,

2035 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 why has this Government not taken a public stand opposing this plan? Mr. Fllmo n: Mr. Speaker, this Government was informed of the open sky proposal I believe the second week of October, and the n we are informed. that we had to make a presentation within a matter of weeks before the committee that was to come before the country .

Our Minister will be going to that committee to say that we do not believe that we have been given sufficient time to review all of the various potential effects of the open sky policy and that we will take the ti me required to do the analysis, to consult with indus try peop le. We ha ve begun some consultations with people from the industry to be affected. We will have a position that reflects a very objective and a very thorough analysis that we will arrive at before we make that position. lt will not just be a kne e-jerk reaction ; lt will be a very well- considered response. Impact Deregulation Mr.

Daryl Reld (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it appears that we are doing more studying on this issue . My question is for the Premier. How many more jobs will be lost in this province to deregulation before this Premier and his Cabinet recognize that the only beneficiaries are the three major Canadian centres, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, while everywhere else will see job losses , fare increases and deteriorating safety conditions? Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, it is only New Democrats who make conclusions without any studying and without information. lt is only New Democrats who do that.

We will not do that. We will do a complete review and analysis so that we know the ramifications both pro and con before we take our position on that issue. Health Care System Government Position Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): I am pleased to hear the Minister say that he is going to study. He has some papers to study.

He has a Lloydminster communique and he has a paper that was tabled at Lloydminster. lt is therefore appropriate for the Premier to tell this House today exactly what conclusions they have come to with respect to the recommendations in that paper, and what position they are going to take at next week's Finance Ministers' meeting . Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, what the Lloydminster meeting did was to distribute a discussion paper to all of the First Ministers in the country for their review and response, and that is what has been done, and that will lead to the various discussions that will take place by the Finance Ministers when they meet here. Our bottom line is we are going to do everything possible to protect, preserve and enhance the medicare system in this country. We cannot do it if there are continuing cuts to the funding for that system by federal Governments regardless of their political stripe.

That is where the battle has to be fought, and that is where the battle has to be won, Mr. Speaker. Established Programs Financing Government Position Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second OpposHion):That position is not consistent with the position taken yesterday by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who in essence said, we have given up defending EPF funding, and we are going to move entirely into the area of equalization . Will the First Minister today tell this House which position they are going to take?

Are they going to take the position of the Minister of Finance which says forget EPF , we are mo ving onl y on equalizat ion, or the position of the Premier which seems to be saying just the opposite? * (1 350) Hon. Gary Fll mon (Premier ): Mr. Speak er, throughout the 19 80s there have been continuing cuts and erosion to the funding in EPF transfers in Canada. lt began with the elimi nation of the revenue guarantee in 19 8 2 by the Trudeau administration. That move alone has resulted in $507 million less of funding coming to the Province of Manitoba from EPF funding during that period, 19 81 through 19 91 .

Next, in 1 983 they put on the so-called six and five capping on EPF transfers. That measure resulted in $1 09 million in reductions between that period of time, from '83 until 19 91 -92, Mr. Speaker. Then in 19 86 under a new administration in Ottawa a 2 percent growth reduction resulted in $343 million in reduction in EPF transfers to the Province of Manitoba. Then of course the 19 90

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2036 budget resulted in the per capita freeze, another $1 00 million in losses in EPF. That is where the battle has to be fought. lt is the feder al Governmen t that is reneging on its responsibilities to health care and post-secondary education in this country. That is what we will be fighting against, Mr. Speaker. Mrs.

Carstalr s: lt is quite clear that while this political Party of which the Premier is the head played ostrich from '8 2 until '86, they have now woken up, but in their process of being sleeping beauties and waking up, they seem to have two different positions. Why is the First Minister of the Province of Manitoba not able to reconcile his position with the position taken yesterday by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , and what is our negotiating position going to be? Mr. Fllmon : Mr.

Speaker, I wish that the Member for River Heights would not put incorrect information on the record, because I will quote what the Minister of Finance said yesterday in Question Period: "For the Member to say, continue to fight the hard battle in EPF, naturally we will continue to do that." He did not say-he said the opposite. He said we will continue to fight the cuts in EPF. Mr. Speaker, that is precisely what has to be done, is that we in Manitoba have to fight to ensure that Ottawa lives up to its responsibilities with respect to trans fe r paymen ts on health and post-secondary education .

Health Care System Government Position Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns) : I would like to pursue this matter because I do not think it is any clearer now than yesterday or even a few moments ago. Mr. Speaker, we still do not know the position of this Government vis-a-vis the crunch that we are facing as a province, as indeed all provinces are facing, with respect to declining and reduced direct payments for health and post-secondary education through Established Programs Financing. We want to know from the Premier today, what is the Government's strategy? Is it charting a new course ?

Is it planning a new way of financing health care? Is it speaking up for Manitobans who want high standards, who want qualit y health care? Is it speaking up as Ontario is doing and asking for the maintenance of national standards to ensure that we are able to deal with the health care issues of the 19 90s and into the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premier ): Absol ute ly, Mr. Speaker.

We want to ha ve the standards maintained and enhanced in our health care system on a national basis, but the Member does not recognize obviously that it will be very, very difficult to maintai n those standards if there is a continuing erosion in funding. lt is all predicated upon having sufficient funding to pay for it. Dr. Fraser Mustard was in town in the past couple of days, a well-k nown physician who knows a great deal about standards. He said our real problem is that we have not been creating the wealth to run our syste m. lt takes wealth , it takes funding in order to have the high quality system.

That is where the battle must be fought, and that is where we will be ensuring that Ottawa lives up to its responsibilities. We will be doing everything we can to ensure that Ottawa lives up to its responsibilities, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Wasylycla-L el s: Why then is this Government getting suckered into the federal strategy which is planning to get right out of direct payments for health care somet ime around the turn of the century? lt is not the year 2000 yet, Mr. Speaker.

Will this Governme nt stand up and fight to maintain decent adequate transfers through EPF rather than tal k about pulling out of national health care and dismantl ing medicare? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable the First Minister. - (inter jec tion)- Or der, plea se. Order. The Honourable the First Minister has the floor. Mr. Fllm on: Mr. Speaker, eight times to eight separate quest ions, I have responded in the affirmative to that questio n, and I repeat the same response-yes. * (1 355) Strategy Paper Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns) : Then will the Premier direct his Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) to go into the meeting next week of provincial- territorial Ministers of Finance with a strate gy paper suggesti ng ways to ensure adequate transfer payments to health and post-secondary education rather than initiating or participating in a

2037 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 27, 1990 discussion about pulling out of our national health care system? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, that has always been the bottom line for this Government, to ensure that the federal Government lives up to its responsibilities for transfer payments for the support· of health and post-secondary education and it will not vary. Farming Industry Safety Net Program Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin) : Duri ng the Esti mates, the discussion with the Department of Agricu lture , the Minister has discussed many aspects of the new safety net program that is currently being discussed with the provinces and the federal Government. I am pleased to see that the Minister has finally gotten off the GATT agenda, and his colleagues as we ll, and under stood , Mr. Speaker, that the successful resolution of the GATT negotiations will not result in any major benefits for prairie farmers in the foreseeable future.

Will the Minister ensure that any proposals that he endorses with the other Ministers for a safety net program be based on a realistic cost of production so that farmers will indeed be able to survive the crisis that they are facing in agriculture at this time? Hon. Glen Fl ndla y (Min ister of Agricul ture): Mr.

Speaker, the Member is asking a question that we spent probably three-q uarters of an hour talking about yeste rday, and the Mem ber never ever explained to me wha t he me ant by cos t of production. lt is just a state ment that hangs out in the air, and I will tell the Member that there is a very clear recognition of the market price that producers are getting for grains that they sell, plus indexed for inflation. That is called the IMAP price, and it is indexed for costs that the producer encounters on the variable cost basis. Agricultural Assistance Federal Responsibility Mr.

John Plohm an (D auphin) : The Minister has stat ed, I take from that answer, Mr. Speaker, that it is a realistic cost of production. We will await the results of the discussions. In view of the fact that the Minister has stated that the province cannot afford the one-third costs that the federal Government wants to hoist onto the backs of provincial taxpayers, does the Minister agree with our position that 50 percent of the cost of any safety net program , of any sta biliz ation progr am, in sur ance program that is bein g negotiat ed, be borne by the federal level of Government?

What action is the Minister prepared to take with his colleagues, with farm organizations and with the public and people of Manitoba to ensure that the federal Government lives up to its historic obligations in this area? Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minis ter of Agriculture) : There is no question that the federal Government traditi onally ever since Confederation has paid the lion's share if not all of the support to the grains and oilseeds sector in all of Canada. Certainly we are arguing that they should maintain the majority of that responsibility.

They are saying no, that they want the provinces to share in a greater and greater portion of it. lt is unfortunate that many provinces have chosen also to take the same position, that they should take on some responsibility. We are not only fighting the federal Government, we are fighting other provinces who are quite willing to take on that responsibility, so it weakens our case. I would like to see a united position from all provinces that the federal Government should take a very strong level of responsibility here, but we do not have that voice unanimously across the country right now. Mr.

Plohman : The Minister is not taking a very aggressive position. He is taking a closed door position with the other Ministers, not an aggressive position, and he admits he got snookered last year in the crop insurance discussions for $1 5 million additional dollars for the province because some provinces capitulated early.

I ask the Minister, what action he is prepared to take at this time to enlist the support of Manitobans and Members of this House through task forces, through public forums to ensure that the public of Manitoba is fully behind the position that the federal Government must put up the lion' s portion of any deficiency payment that is so desperately needed this next spring and that an announcement must be made immediately for that? Mr.

Fln dla y: If the Mem ber had been paying any attention, he would have clearly seen that Manitoba and Saskatchewan are making a very strong case, that we do not have the fiscal capacity that Ontario and Alberta, as two examples, do have. We have been making that case continually, and the federal

November 27, 1990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2038 Government is recognizing it. We believe in the final analysis it will be given some very seriou s consideration in that regard. * (1 400) Manitoba Learning Centre Funding Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training) : I took a question as notice from the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) with regard to learning centres when she asked whether or not we would consider funding the learning centres in a similar way that the Laureate Academy is funded. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate to the House now that a learning centre is not an instructional instituti on, rather it is an assessment centre where families can bring their children and adults to get tested for the ir disabilities. lt is a centre where we identify and perhaps prescribe re media tion programs for those who have disabilities.

The Department of Education and Training does fund Children's Home, and the learning centre is a part of Children's Home, but indeed we have never funded it as a stand-alone unit, and it would not be appropriate to fund it in the same way. lt would be impossible to fund it in the same way that the Laureate Academy is funded. Health Advisory Network Reports Completed Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maple s): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Almost two year s ago the Health Advisory Network was est ablished to advise this Minister at a cost of $500,000 per year. lt has been for the last two years.

Can the Minister te ll us how many final reports have been produced by this network during this time? Hon. Donald Orchard (Min ister of He alt h) : Mr. Speaker, yes, two years ago this Government and I established the Health Advisory Network. Yes, we es tabl ished an an nual maximum budget of $500,000 per year. I do not want my honourable friend's impression to be left that that budget has been entirely spent every year. As a matter of fact, less than $1 ,000 was spent in the first year, and I am not certain what will be the extent of their expenditures this year.

The one report that has come into Government is the ex tended trea tment bed review with the subsequent announcements which I believed were very, very well received by all. We did not take the bait that my honourable friend's Party did by suggesting that we adopt the interim report which would have left Concordia Hospital completely out of necessary construct ion. We waited for the final report, made decis ions tha t we believ e were accepted throughout the length and breadth of the extended treatment bed hospitals in the City of Winnipeg. Cardiac Care Report Mr.

Gulzar Cheema (The Maples ): The Minister has said there was only one report and that report was released only seven days before the election campaign. Mr. Speaker, that hospital was empty for the last 18 months. Can the Minister of Health te ll us when the report on cardiac by-pass surgery will be released finally which he promised in 19 88 because of the waiting period which was increased during their term ? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): I do not want my honourable friend to confuse honourable members of the media that might actually buy some of his arguments as factual. Mr.

Speaker, I note a slight frown on your face. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My honour able friend was inco rrect in his allegations about new beds being vacant for 18 months. That is a similar incorrect stat ement made by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) regarding Deer Lodge Hospital, all of which were included, commissioned and will be opened very shortly in te rms of provision of exte nded trea tmen t bed capacity in the city. Mr.

Speake r, on the secon d to pic that my honourable friend asked, I am expecting that we will have a suggested course of action between the two teaching hospitals in te rms of estab lishment of a Manitoba cardiac care program in the very near future. Teaching Hospital Review Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, last year Mr. Orchard promised that he will be releasing the report on that teaching hospital review committee to make sure that we can reorganize the syste m. In view of the escalating costs, can he te ll us finally when that report will be released?

2039 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 1990 Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health) : Mr. Speaker, no, I am unable to Indicate when that report can be released . Let me tell my honourable friend why, and I very much look forward to his active participation in the Health Estimates later on this week because these topics are very, very important· to the future of our ability to deliver health care- An Honourable Member: Why do you not save this answer till then? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I would save the answer till then if the question was not posed today.

I simply want to Indicate that the reason for the tea ching hospital review as a specific undertaking of the Health Advisory Network was because of the rece ipt, I believ e in 19 85, by the previous administration of a report which indicated that our costs were significantly above the national average. We need to have that investigated, Mr. Speaker- Yr. Speaker: Order, please. Children's Rights United Nations Convention Ms. Becky Barrett (Welling ton): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services.

In September the Canadian Government signed the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. When it becomes enacted, this convention will set universally agreed standards for the protection of children and will provide a framework for program development to improve the situation and rights of children in Manitoba, Canada and throughout the world. Each province must also ratify this convention . Will the Ministe r ensure that his Governmen t recognize and sign this document, the text of which I will ta ble now , gua rant eeing Mani toba's commitm ent to the principles outlined in this convention? Hon.

Harold Gllle shammer (Mini ster of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, a great deal of information has come forward on that convention. We have had correspondence from people right across Canada indicating either concern about the convention or support for it. This department of course if very concerned with the rights of children and the protection of children. WE! Will be looking very closely at that information. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, is his Government dela ying bringing forward the convention for ratification because it is having difficulty reconciling the positions taken In that document with their own dismal record on child poverty , child abuse and child ren 's rights in Manitoba? Mr.GIII eshamrner: I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that this Government is very proud of its record and the manner in which we funded Child and Family Services agencies. We came to Government having to deal with many problems that the previous Government had left unatte nded.

I would cite the massive underfunding-and we have talked about this in Estimates the last few days-the underfunding that took place as far as the Child and Family Services agencies are concerned, a problem that is recognized by the Honourable Member in Estimates. Child and Family Services Staffing Ms. Becky Barrett (Welling ton): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Ministe r te lling this House how children and their rights can be protected when his Government has refused to provide adequa te funding for services and programs designed to assist children, only one example of which is the Child and Family Services child protection worker not being allowed to be hired in the core of this city. Hon. Harold Gll lesha mrner (Min ister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I am not surethere was a question there, but we did discuss this last evening in Estimates.

We discussed this in Estimates last night, that agencies who have exceeded the ir funding are not in a position to be hiring additional workers. In this case, with that particular agency, they are able to find resources from within. Core Area Initiative Program Evaluations Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bu rrows): To the Minister of Urban Affairs today, I have straightforward, positive and even complimentary questions. The Core Area Initiative has funded many good programs over the last four and a half years.

One of those is the Core Area Residential Upgrading and Maintenance Program, which combines in a unique way social workers, housing inspectors and teacher aides. Now that the funding is running out and the program is being closed , has the Minister or the

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2040 Core Area Initiative Policy Committee done an evaluation of the Core Area Residential Upgrading and Maintenance Program? Does he agree that this is an excellent Core Area funded program? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, our staff, along with all the other staff at Core, et cetera, and different departments , are re-evaluating the Core Area Agreement as it is winding down to the end of March. When we receive that information, then we will pass it along and share it with the Member. * (1 410) Replacement Funding Mr.

Doug Mar tl ndale (Burr ows): My suppleme ntary is: Has the Minister discus sed continuing funding of CARUMP or a similar program with Mayor Norrie and the Honourable Jake Epp? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Housing ): Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the Member for Burrows has been, but we just negotiated a $2.8 million program in the residential core area, just approved by the three levels of Government, and our department will be carrying out that program. That program will be finished before the Core Area Agreement runs out, before the committed monies are finished for the end of September of '91 . Mr.

Martl ndale : My final supplemen tary is: I appreciate there are many different programs under Core Area. I would like to know if the province is going to continue a program like CARUMP or a similar program? If the Core Area Initiative will not fund it, would the province fund it jointly with the city or, barring that, fund it themselves? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, I believe, and I explained In my first remark, that we are evaluating all the Core Area.

There were parts of the Core that probably were better than others, and they will be discussed with the partners when we are reviewing the results of the second Core Agreement. Elder Abuse Report Release Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bonlface): Mr. Speaker, when the First Minister sat on the Opposition side of this House , he introduced a resol uti on callin g for immediate action on elder abuse. In Government, we have seen none of this commitm ent. The Government's action amounted to condensing a 1982 report and sending it to a Toronto consultant for 16 ,000 worth of political polish. Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Seniors. Given that the public consultations on the White Paper on Elder Abuse were completed in January , when can the seniors of Manitoba expect to see the final report and some action by this Government? Hon. James Downey (Min ister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I am extre mely disappointed in the tenor in which that question was asked, from a Member whom I thought was serious about helping the seniors of this province and wanting to work co-operatively.

That attitude I am sure does not do the seniors in the province very much for the kind of attitude which he brings to this Assembly. Mr. Speaker, there has been a serious series of meetings take place over the past few months with over 1 ,000 people making presentations to the Government. There were actions taken following those hearings, actions taken, information which was extre mely important to be disseminated to the people. As far as the report is concerned, when there is a report ready, it will be available to the public. Legislation Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bonlface): I know we cannot debate, Mr.

Speaker, on a question but I would love to. Abused seniors in Manitoba have suffered from three years of inaction by Government. When will this Government introd uce legis lation to help com bat elder abuse and protect vulner able Manitoba seniors? Hon. James Downey (Min ister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised again that the Member for St. Boniface did not raise any of these questions during the period of which Estimates were before this Assembly.

I cannot understand why all at once this became an issue, and he could have gone into it in depth if he had wanted to take the time to do it at that time. Mr. Speaker, let me assure you that we are working on the whole question of elder abuse. There will be some positive directions taken and actions take n. As far as legislati on is concerned, it is a very delicate situation we are dealing with, and when the proper legislation is developed, the proper work is done, he and this Assembly will see it.

2041 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA November 27, 1990 Safe House Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bonlface) : All lip service, Mr. Speak er. Will this Government com mit itself today to opening a safe house or apartm ent for abused senior s because often they are dependent upon the · very people that are abusing them? Hon. James Downey (Minis ter responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, our Governm ent is clear and our actions positive when it comes to supporting those people who are less fortunate and vulne rable in our society in many areas.

My colleague who is responsi ble for the Women's Directorate, all my colleagues and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province are extreme ly concerned, and we will take all the actions necessary to protect those individuals of the seniors' communi ty. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Brandon East has ti me for one very short question. 811120 Amendment Justification Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speak er, I have a question for the Minis ter of Finance .

Bill 20, The Statute Law Amen dment (Taxation) Act is in the second reading stage in this Legisla ture and inclu des Sections 13(8) to 18 which removes tax paym ent refusal provisions. Vendors must now collect all tax es and will no longer be able to advise the departm ent that a purchaser refuses to pay the tax . Why is the Minis ter now ma king this change? Is he trying to help Michael Wilson collect the GST by en suring tha t ret ailers or vendor s take full responsi bility and collect all taxes ? Hon. Clayton Manness (M inister of Finance): Mr.

Speak er, the provincial sales tax is the responsibil ity of the province. The GST is the responsi bility of the federal Governmen t. The action that we have taken as far as denying exem ptions at the source of purchase has absolutely nothing to do with the goods and services tax-absolutely nothing. That is a col lec tion determ in ation by the federal Government. They will impose their own standards. With respect to the provincial sales tax, I welcome the debate on The Stat ute Law Amendmen t (Taxati on) , Bill 20, and a fuller explanation and debate at that tim e. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Qu estions has expir ed. CommiHee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Giml l): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ma ke some changes to the committee. I move , seconded by the Member for.Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), tha t the com position of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts be amended as follows: Connery for McCrae ; Rose for Praznik; and Helwer for Mitchelson. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agr eed. Mr. George Hlc kes (Point Dougl as): I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the Standing Com mittee on Law Amendmen ts be amended as follows: Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). I move, seconded by the Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk) , tha t the com position of the Sta nding Com mittee on Municipal Affai rs be amen ded as follows: Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Swan River (Ms. Wowchu k). Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member. Mr. Kevl n Lamoureux (lnkster) : Mr. Speaker, ! too have a comm ittee chang e . l move, seconded by the Member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) , that the com position of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts be ame nded as follows: The Maples (Mr. Cheema ) for St. Ja mes (M r. Edwards). Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for lnkster. SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: We have a ruling for the House. Or der, please. On Friday, November 16 , 1990, I took under advisement a matter of privilege raised by the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) allegin g that the actions of the Honourable Min ister of Co-operative, Consu mer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Cannery) in this House during Qu estion Period on Novemb er 15 con stituted a breach of the privileges of this House . As I have indicated in the past when matters of privi lege have been raised, such matters are very serious.

Therefore, I have given this matter careful thou ght and consideration. In his mo tion the Ho nou rable Memb er for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton) proposed that the House censure the Minister for reflecting on the Speaker

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2042 and that the House direct the Minister to apologize for his act ions. In his rem arks the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) stated that reflection on the Speaker was a matter of privilege or a contempt of the House .

In reviewing the usual parliame ntary sources to which we refer in such cases, I noted the following points which apply, in my opinion , to this case : An exam ina tion of Mani toba Speakers' Rulin gs indicated that on a numb er of occasions Mem bers have apologi zed for or have been requi red to withdraw words spoken which reflected on the Chair and In some cases have been named for declining to do so when asked; Beauchesne's 6th Edition , Citation 71 .(1) iriforms us that "The Speaker should be protected agains t reflections on his or her action s." Beauchesne's 6th Edition, Citation 16 8.(1) states "Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privi lege ." and , "The actions of the Spe ake r canno t be criticized inciden tally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of substantive motion ." and On page 115 Erskine May points out that "Any disorderly, contum acious or disrespectful conduct in the presence of either House or a Comm ittee will constitute a contempt." When a matter of privilege is brought to the attention of the House, the Speaker mu st satisfy hims elf or herself that the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity and that a prima facie case has been est ablished.

For clarifi cat ion, the establishmen t of a prima facie case requir es that the Member raising the ma tte r present suff icien t evidence to warrant setting aside the regularly sche duled business of the House to allo w imme diate conside ration of the alleged matte r of privilege. •

(1420) With respect to ti meliness, the allege d incident occurred during the sitting of the House on Novemb er 15 but was not brought to the attention of the House until the start of the sitti ng of November 16 .

Our Rule 25 is very clear and states that "When a matter of privilege arises it shall be taken into conside rat ion imm edia te ly." Beauchesne's 6th Edition , Citation 115 , reinforces this rule by stati ng, "A question of privi lege mu st be brought to the att ention of the House at the first poss ible opportu nity." Timeli ness In raising a matter of privilege has been the subject of a num ber of Man itoba Speakers' Rulings.

On March 16 , 1972, Speak er Fox ruled that a matter of privilege arising from events at the previous day's sitting was out of order on the grounds that it should have been raised on the day on which it occurred. The matter taken under advisement should have been raised at the earli est opportun ity , which was during or imm ediately after Oral Qu estions on November 15 . The question of whether or not the Honourable Member for Thompson est ablished a prima facie case is more complex. I did not see the alleged ges tur es, nor, obviousl y, is there any record of them In Hansard.

The Qu estion Period video tape, while not normally used in considering such matters, did not record any of the alleged actions of the Mini ster. An

article in the November 17 issue of the Winnipeg Free Press did report that the Min ister said he shook his finger at the Speaker and said that the Speaker should have let him finish the answer to the ques tion. I mu st concl ude , howeve r, tha t the Honourable Member for Thompson has provided the House with insufficie nt evidence and has failed to establish a prima facie case . The Honourable Governmen t House Leader made the point on Novemb er 16 that a matter of privilege could not be based on statements made outside the House .

In a review of the Manitoba Speakers' Rulings and other aut horities, it is evident tha t a ma tter of privilege can not be based exclusively on statem ents made outside the House . As stated by Speaker Lamoureux of the Canadian House of Commons in a ruling of May 10 , 1966, a breach of privilege •m ust be based on matters arisi ng from the actual transactions of the business of the House ." In conclusion, on the grounds that the matter was not raised at the earliest opportunity and that the Honourable Member for Thom pson (Mr.

Ashton) fai led to establish a prima facie case, I mu st rule the matter raised out of order as a matter of privilege. And final ly, I beli ev e I should rem in d all Honourable Member s that decorum is importa nt both to the public in the galleries and to the viewing public. In the words of Speaker Bosfey of the House of Commons, we should "remember who we are , who put us here and where we are." Hon. Edward Connery {Minister of Co-operative, Consum er and Corporate Affairs: Yes, Mr.

2043 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 Speaker, if my acti ons were mi sinterpreted by Member s, I would like to apologize for any action that I mi ght have taken that would reflect upon the Chair. lt is not my intent to reflect upon the Chair, and if something was taken out of context, Mr. Speak er, I apologize . Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Min ister. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Governm ent House Leader has the floor. Hon. Cla yton Manness (Go vernment House Leader): Mr.

Spe ake r, first of all on House Business, after discussions with the Opposition House Leaders, I believe ther e is a wish to cancel the Standing Comm ittee on Public Accounts that was scheduled for 10 a.m. Thursday of this week. lt is my intention to call that standing com mittee shortly after the Provincial Auditor reports to the Mem bers of this House with respect to the 1990 fiscal year. I believe there is an understanding amongs t the Parties that private Memb ers' hour will be waived today. You may wish to determin e that on your own.

That being the case, I would announce that we will continue the consideration of the Estimates of the Departm ent of Agriculture in the Chamber, and the Departm ent of Family Services in the Com mittee Room 255. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Ju stice (Mr. McCrae) , that Mr. Spe aker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanim ous consent to cancel the Public Accounts meeting

schedule for this Thursday? Some Honourable Members: Agr eed. Mr. Speaker: That is agr eed. Is there unanim ous consent to waiv e pri vate Member s' hour? Some Honourable Members: Agr eed. Mr. Speaker: That is agreed . As noted, Ag ricultur e in the Cham ber, Family Services in Room 255; therefore- Committee Change Mr. Kevln Lamoureux (ln kster): Mr. Speaker, before you move the motion I just wanted to make one more committee change . I move, seconded by the Member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) that the com position of the Standing Comm ittee on Econom ic Dev elopmen t be amended as follows: Os borne (Mr.

Alcock ) for River Hei ghts (Mr s. Carstai rs). Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for lnkster. *** Mr. Speaker: lt has been moved by the Honourable Gov ernm ent House Lea de r (Mr. Manne ss) , seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Ju stice (Mr. McCra e), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Departmen t of Family Services, and the Honourable Member for Seine River (M rs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Departm ent of Agricul ture . * (1 430) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y-FAMIL V SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chair man (Marcel Laurendeau): Or der, plea se. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order? This afternoon this

section of the Com mittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume conside ration of the Estima tes of the Departm ent of Fami ly Services. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering Item 4. Child and Family Services (

a) Adminis tration : (1 ) Salaries $206,1 00, on page 61 of the Estimates Book. The Honourable Minis ter, you had some questions to answer. Hon. Harold Gllle sham mer (Mini ster of Family Services): Mr. Deputy Chai rman, we brough t back some information on a number of items that I would like to share with the critics at this tim e. The Member for Osborne (Mr. AI cock) requested I provide him with rate schedules and gu idelines for care and suppo rt services to mentally handic apped

November 27, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2044 in dividuals. I am pleased to table a set of gu ideli nes providing the in formation requested . Secondly, the Memb er for Osbome requested a copy of the guideli nes, with respect to the transit ion from Child to Adult Servic es. I am pleased to table in form ation describ ing protocols for developin g in dividual transit ion plans from school to community living for students requir ing rehabilitati on support services. The Member for Wellin g ton (Ms.

Barrett) asked that I provid e her with a list of organ iz atio ns providi ng day act iv it y pr ograms for men tal ly handic app ed adu lts, in cludi ng the num bers of spaces provided.! am pleased to table a list showing in dividual agenc ies by reg ion, the number of funded clien ts in each agency for 1990-91 . The Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) asked that I provide him with in formation on the allocatio n of Crisis Intervention fu nding for '90-91 .

I am pleased to table a listin g of funding allo cations for Crisis Intervention servic es by region indicati ng amou nts expended by region to October 31 , 1990. The Member for Wellin g ton (Ms. Barrett) asked tha t I prov ide her with a bre akdown of the depar tme nt's af firm ative act ion target gr oup representation according to job classificat io n. I am ple ased to ta ble a docu men t, which lists , at September 30, 1990, the total employmen t and the number of affirma tive action target group em ployees in the Departmen t of Fami ly Servi ces according to job, fam ilies and occu pat io nal gr oups.

Thi s clas sif ic at ion is based on the Cana di an Classific ation Dictionary of Occupations. The Mem ber for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) asked that I advise him of the am ount of the departmen t's contractual obligat ion to provide annual revenue under the Manit oba Data Servic es divestit ure agr eemen t. I wish to inform the Member, in cluded in the terms of the agr eem ent for ma lizin g the di vesti ture of Man it oba Data Services is a commitment on the part of the Provin ce of Manitoba to provide annual reven ues in the amoun t of $32,1 09,000 for a period of five years commencing Ja nuary 1 , 1990.

Th e Dep ar tm ent of Fam ily Ser vic es is contractu ally obligated to provide annual revenues of $1 ,820,435 .18 for each of those fi ve years. The Memb er for Wellin gton (Ms. Barrett) asked that I provide her with background in formatio n on the memb ers of the Socia l Servic es Advis ory Commi ttee . I am pleased to table that in format ion. Finally, the Mem ber for Wellin gton requested in form ation on the number of appeals, by reg io n, to the Social Servic es Advis ory Comm itt ee.

I am plea sed to table for the Mem ber a docum ent providing a regi onal breakdown of the number of appeals in 1989-90 to the Social Services Advisory Com mitt ee. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osbome} : Mr. Chair person , just with refe rence to thi s in format ion, I had also requested a breakdown of the amount of money spent since 1983 on the Child and Family Servic es Information System. Is that go ing to be forthco ming at some poin t? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, we still have a number of requests I think we received as late as last evening. We will be compili ng that in formation and forwarding it to you . Mr.

Alco ck: I had handed over a copy of an annual report and asked that it be updated. I am wondering if that is available ? Mr. Gll leshammer : The Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) had requested that staff update his copy of the 1988-89 Annual Report for the Departmen ts of Com muni ty Services, Employment Services, and Econom ic Security to show 1989-90 data. I have already provid ed the Member with updated data related to Rehabi litati on and Com muni ty Living.

Several of the tables in the 1988-89 Annual Report related to Child and Fami ly Services are no longer available as we now com pil e data some wha t diffe rently. To accomm odate the Memb er's request, howeve r, I am pre pared to prov ide the two Oppos ition Critics with draft inform atio n on the departme nt's four main operating divisions from Fami ly Services 1989-90 Annual Report. I would ask the Mem bers to note that this in form ation has not yet been fi nalized and is not yet ready for for mal tabling in the House .

I would in dicate that other departmen ts have not as yet tabled those annual reports for that specific year either, but we will provide this in formation in a draft basis for the Mem bers today. Mr. Alco ck: I appreciate the Minister providin g that in forma tion. I am a little concerned when I hear tha t data that has previo usly been provided in annual reports is no longer being provid ed. I would ask that the Minister ensure that where that is the case, there are reconciliation statements that show us, back at

2045 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 least to 1980, what the situation would have been had we been collecting data in that fashion . lt is a little too easy to hide prog ram matic changes by changing the data tables. Mr. Gllleshamm er: I am sure the Mem ber wou ld not want to be sugges ting this is some attempt to hide inform ation. We have worked very hard to pr ovide all the in form ati on the Memb er has requested, having staff work late into the evening and on weekends to provide tables and inform ation for him .

The departm ent is new and part of the transition is the combining of two large departme nts into one , and the information we are providing is in order to provide better information for the public who may want to read these annual reports . Mr. Alco ck: Well, let me clarify my remarks because I have had this same discussion with the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) . The Min ister of Finance has, indeed, concurred with me that there is a problem when departments are quick to change their annual reporting, because it makes it very difficult to track what is occurring in a departmen t year over year.

The Mini ster is assuring me that information will be provided so that these new data tables will allow us to follow that, and I will take him at his word. lt is not a small issue. lt is something that was going to be discussed at length in an accounts committee, and somethi ng that the Min ister of Finance has been willing to work quite closely with us on. *

(1440) I have a question, thoug h, on this information that was ta bled, the Additional Ca re and Supp ort Program descript ion . This was tab led by the Mi niste r in response to my request for the Treasury Board authorized levels of special rate fu nding so that line staff could authorize certain rates. The Minis ter replied several times un der questioning that a line worker cou ld apply, un der these policy statem ents, up to $1 50 in special rate fu nding to a case. I wonder if the Min ister could help me by pointing out where that is stated? Mr.

Gll leshammer : I am sorry, we do not have a copy of that with us, but I am told that information is inclu ded there. If there is anyth ing that the Member is un able to find , we will be happy to clarify that for him at a later date. Mr. Alc ock: The location E1 ,

Section 55, page 4, speaks about a dollar limit of $1 25 per day of service above currently authorized rates. Is it simply that the Minis ter was in error when he gave us the $1 50 figu re or am I looking at the wrong item? Mr. Gll leshammer : I would indicate to the Memb er that the maxim u m allowed is $1 25.00. Mr. Alcock : Well, the Hansards are not here yet, but the Mini ster referenced repeatedly- because I raised the figur e a number of times-$1 50.00. I mean, it may just be an error, giv en the discussions that took place.

We will wait un til the Hansards come out and the Mini ster can make what corrections he chooses to. Do you want to respond to that or shaii i- Mr. Gllles hammer: We would consu lt Hansard when it comes out . If there is some difference of opinion, we will be able to check it in Hansard . If they are in error we will be pleased to ma ke tha t correction. Mr. Alcock : Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I thank the Minis ter for tab ling this draft. lt looks quite complete , and I will have a chance to go through it. I do realize that it is provided on a draft, and really for our convenience, basis . I appreciate that.

I may come back later in this discussion with some questions on the data contained withi n. Since we are still talking about the administrative div ision of Child and Fam ily Se rvices of this particular directorate, perhaps I can continu e with some of the questions that got started last night. We ended the discussion last night talking about something that the departmen t has chosen to call the Structu red Care Continuu m in foster care. The Min iste r, I though t, did a good thing in agr eeing to review this policy and to meet with the foster pare nts and others who were concerned about this particu lar issue.

I have had an opportunity to speak with some of them since last nigh t and confirm that indeed their positions, as enun ciated to me, were in fact their positions and that they have a great ma ny concerns about this policy. I thank the Mi nister for agreeing to see that this policy is reviewed. I would like to ask him , relative to the relation ship between the directorate and the Native ag encies, Native agencies deliver services un der provincial legis lation and presuma bly un der the control and direction of the directorate, are they agree ing to implemen t this policy as dir ected by the departm ent?

November 27, 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2046 Mr. Glll eshamm er: Our expectation is that they will participate in the process of studying the Structured Care Continuum and participate in it. Mr. Alco ck: Has the Minister, or the department, received any indication by, or on behalf of, the Native agencies to the contrary? Have you received anything in writing recently that suggests that they will not? Mr. Gllle sha mmer: There has been no formal indication on th eir part that they are not willing to participate. Mr. Alcoc k: Then, informal notification? Mr. Gll leshammer : No. Mr.

Alcoc k: Well, we will leave that one until they take the actions that they choose to take. Now, is it the Manitoba Learning Centre , or the Manitoba educat ion centre , something that was raised today in Question Period, which provides some ass essment of chil dren with learning disabilities , children, I believe, even some adults. The Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) spoke today about how that service would be inappropriate for education to fund, but then it was indeed funded by Children' s Home, or through Children's Ho me.

I note, in looking at the agreement that was tabled last night, that there is no mention of this particular service, and I am wondering if the Minister can te ll us how the n, given the state ments of the Minister of Education, it receives support? Mr. Glll eshammer : Yes, it was a service offered by Children's Home of Winnipeg, and I believe that the parties to the agreement, and there was some provincial funding and federal funding involved, felt tha t the results of the program did not warrant continuing with the program.

There have been ongoing meetings by the groups involved to see if there are alternatives that might be put in place, and I believe they met as recently as the 14 th of this month to discuss options that we might look at for the next budget year. Mr. Alco ck: So that the groups that were involved in seeing that this project was launched, or had a rela ti onship with this project, have decided collectively based on an evaluation of this project that it is not meeting the needs that it was designed to meet and, the ref ore , funding should be discontinued? Mr. Glll esha mmer: That is my understanding.

That the principal groups involved felt the results were such that it did not warrant continuing with the program at this time. Mr. Alc ock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we will leave that issue to those groups. As long as there is a study in place that says the service is not meeting the needs-- the Minister assures us that is the case-then it would be appropriate to discontinue funding. Let us come back to the relationship just briefly with the Nativ e agencies. Native agencies are responsible to the directorate and accountable to the directorate for all the services that they provide. Mr.

Gll leshammer : Yes, on the service side they report to the directorate. Mr. Alcock : Why then in the annual reports is data from two of the Native agencies not included? • (1 450) Mr. Gll leshamm er: We have included data that has been forwarded to us. Ther e has been some difficulty in getting data from two of the agencies. Mr. Alco ck: This is a difficulty that is continued. I notice in the last two or three annual reports that data has not been forthcoming from those same agencies. These agencies operate, . the Minister assures me, under the direction of the Child and Family Support directorate .

Why has that situation not been corrected? Mr. Gll leshammer: Our concern is to work with those agencies in a co-operative way and to assist the m to provide the services that are deemed appropriate . We are working with them to try and encourage them and persuade them to provide that data for us. Mr. Alco ck: Is there a difficulty in obtaining that sort of data ? Is there a problem in the relationship between the agencies and the directorate? Mr. Gllle shammer: They have been reluctant to share some of that information with the department staff, but it is an ongoing process.

We are working with them to have the m provide that data for us. Mr. Alcock : Does their reluctance to share that information also extend to, or is there any reluctance on the ir

part in involving them sel ves, in the Structured Care Continuum? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The Member had asked the question earlier. We have not been formally or informally advised that there is a problem having the m involved with the Structured Care Continuum.

2047 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 Mr. Alcock : Let me just try to wrap up this

section with a couple of smaller areas. The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) raised the question of the children's rights convention in Question Period today. The Minister and I had a discussion about this earlier, because we have a resolution on the Order Paper asking that the House approve it, and in fact a request was made that the Minister participate in making this a non-partisan event. Does the department intend to proceed with ratification of the convention? Mr.

Gll lesha mrner: That is an issue that is being reviewed by another department of Government at th is time to see if there are any contradictions or problems with it and will be coming forward in due course . Mr. Alco ck: Would that other department be Justice ? Mr. Gll leshamrn er: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: Is anyone from this de partmen t Involved In that review? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The primary work on that Issue is being done by Justi ce, but we have people who are In contact with that department. Mr.

Alcock : Has there been any internal review by this department to dete rmine the impact on services offered through this department, of this convention? Mr .G IIIe shammer: Yes, the department is doing an analysis of the issue and will be meeting with Justice to provide input on it. Mr. Alco ck: When does Justice inform you that we will have a proclamation or a decision on this particular Issue 7 Mr. Gll leshamm er: I am told that the Department of Justice is working on it at this time, and we have not been advised if they have a target date for any announcement or not. Mr.

Alco ck: Maybe we can just dispel a rumour that exists in the system right now.

In all the discussions that take place among the agencies about the funding changes and the problems that they face in atte mpting to cut back services sufficient ly to meet the guidelines put forward by the department, and as they are deciding which groups they are not going to serve and those various things, there is a belief and cer t ainly a very acti ve rumour, tha t the Government is simply atte mpting to set them up so the Government can then move in and centralize the agencies, either into three city agencies or one large agency, as they have done with Winnipeg region again.

Is there currently work under way on a proposal to centralize the agencies? Mr. Gll lesha mrner: I am not aware of the rumours that the Member speaks of. No, ther e is no work under way in that context. Mr. Alc ock: So there is no attempt right now by this department, this division, to change the current organiz ati onal structure in Child and Fa mily Services? Mr. Gll leshammer : At the present time we are actively working with the agencies on the service and funding agreements and trying to proceed through a transition year and hopefully have a better service system when the procedure is completed . Mr.

Alco ck: When do you anticipate having those agreements in place? Mr. Gll leshamm er: We had hoped to have had them in place by now, and the work is ongoing. I am not sure we can give you a definitive date on that, but work is proceeding on them. Mr. Alco ck: By April 1 of '91 ? Mr. Glllesh amrner: lt would be hoped that th e agreements would be completed prior to that. Mr. Alc ock: Are Native agencies being expected to sign the same agreements? Mr. Glll eshammer: Ther e is a fundame ntal diffe rence , of cour se , in that their funding is accessed from the federal Government.

On the service side of it, we are In constant review with those agencies on the services that they provide. Mr. Alcoc k: You do provide some funding to them? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The Member is correct in that we do provide some funding for the Native agencies, but the primary funding comes from the federal Government. We will be reviewing the funding that flows from the provincial Government to the Native agencies, and the services that they provide. Right at the moment our primary focus is on the other Child and Family Services agencies that exist in the province. Mr.

Alco ck: Surely if you are paying a rate based on a provision of a certain kind of service that there would be no difference depending on the agency providing the service.

November 27, 1990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2048 Mr. Gl l leshammer : Yes, I have indicated to the Member that we will be reviewing our funding relati onship with the Native agencies, but our primary concern at the moment is the other Child and Family Services agencies that we fund to a much greater exte nt. * (1 500) Mr. Alcoc k: I note in the information that was tabled, there has been about a 20 percent increase in child abuse cases in the year under review in this most recent annual report, the '89-90, which is one year behind the current.

Can the Minister give us a rough idea of the year over year increase to date as we move into the '90-91 year? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: We do not have a figure that we can give the Member today, but I will ask department staff to research that and indicate that figure to the Member. Mr. Alco ck: I can tell the Minister from a very quick glance through the tables in this report that I do have some serious concerns about the child maintenance day care table and would like to discuss that later when we get down to that line. Perhaps the Minister could be prepared for that.

Beyond that, I think we are prepared to pass the administration

section of this division. Mr. Deputy Chair man: Item 4.(a)( 1) Salaries $208,1 00-pass ;

(2) Ot her Expendi tures $23,000--pass; (

b) Child and Family Support (1 ) Salaries $1 ,958,800 .00. Ms. Becky Barrett (Welling ton): Mr. Deputy Chair, again I am going to ask a few questions to try and put this part of the Child and Family Services division Into perspective, particularly the Child arid Family Support area as opposed to the Seven Oaks Centre . There are 26.26 Professional/Technical people in this particular area. As I have asked in the othe rs, can the Minister provide me with their general kinds of backgrounds, kinds of backgrounds that the people that are in these positions have? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Yes, we have two managerial staff, one with a B.A., one with a B.S.W. ; we have 23.5 program consul tants, most of them with Bachelor of Social Work, or Master of Social Work, some with some accounting background; 22 admin. support who are clerical and some with accounting training; and five term with a varied background. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, are these positions, I assume, Civil Service positions as well? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, they are. Ms.

Barrett: When I look at the Objectives as listed on page 70 of the Estimates, this would appear to be an incredibly important part ofthis whole division, the linchpin, if you will, because it is: To plan and develop a comprehensive continuum of services and ensure the delivery of those services. I am assuming that these people have a very important part, a very im portant role , to play In the implem entati on of the policy and also I would venture to guess in the making of the policy at the very least as it reflects directly on the agencies.

Is that a fair estimation of the role this particular part plays In the whole delivery of service? (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, that is a fair estimation. Ms. Barrett: Do they have regular meetings with all of the mandated agencies, external and internal ? Are they the group that sort of takes the concerns and the issues back and forth from the agencies and the divisions to the administration and the planning? Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes , I am told tha t the communications is constant between this group and the agencies. Ms.

Barrett: Of the 26.25 Professional/Technical people, are they divided up among the different agencies? Do they each have responsibility for a variety of agencies or subgroups, or what is their caseload like, If that is an appropriate use of the word? Mr. Gll leshamm er: I am told that they are divided by program specialty rather than divided on an agency basis. Ms. Barrett: Program specialty, what kinds ofthi ngs would be involved in the programs? Mr. Gll leshammer : Maybe I will give you three examples. There are some are program specialists in the area of adoption, others foster care and still others in abuse.

Ms. Barrett: Those are only three of the possible areas, there would be more areas--o kay. Could the Minister give me an example of some of the research and evaluation activities that have been done on the part of the Support Services?

2049 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 Mr. Gll lesham mer: This group does not do research and evaluation projects as such, but more appropriately does compliance audits. Ms. Barrett: Compliance audits, meaning making sure that the accountability function-that agencies. are following the rules and regulations and actually providing service to the people that they say they are providing service to. Is that what you mean by compliance audits? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, the funding that is flowed to the agencies must reflect the service that is provided by them. Ms.

Barrett: What form do these compliance audits take ? Are they quarterly reports that are required by agencies to tum in or are they just sometimes members of Child and Family Support actually visit the agencies? Is it a combination of a variety of factors? * (1 51 0) Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes, it is a combination of visiting the agencies and working with th em, looking over the cases and monitoring files that they have compiled on the various cases. Ms. Barrett : Ma dam Acti ng Chair, so thes e individuals can go from Child and Family Support, and they have access to individual cases? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Yes, they have access to the files on actual cases. Ms. Barrett: To what end do they take a look at individual cases. Is this just a "let us take a look at every 1Oth case and see what is being done" sort of-just a general review, or do they sometimes respond to concerns raised about suitabi lity of how a case has been handled? What is their role in that regard? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The case files are reviewed on a random basis, and there are times that cases may be referred to the Deputy Minister level if the perception is that perhaps it needs some review. Ms.

Barrett: There would be times when Child and Family Support would go into an agency and-or I assume regularly-that all agencies are expected to comply with a request to come in and take a look at their random files. Then the Child and Family Support could on their own-they have the authority to say, okay, I do not like the way th is case has been handled, and I am going to deal with it. I am trying to get at what the role here is of the child and family vis-a-vis authority, or the abil ity to ma ke changes-to demand if you will-that the agency make some changes. Mr.

Glll eshammer: Well, the members of the department have the authority to monitor the case files more on the basis of working with supervisory staff in the agencies to monitor how the case is being handled. Ms. Barrett: I understand that, and that is probably so that everyone knows how things are operating. But they could actual ly go in and say, I need to see, or I will see , X number of cases from this particular

section of a Child and Family Services agency or from this parti cular worker. Do they have the authority to do that? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, they have the authority to monitor these cases. Certainly the protection of children and families is uppermost in our minds to see that proper procedures are being followed and that In fact the members of the public are getting the service that is appropriate. Ms. Barrett: I am trying to est ablish a line of authority I think here.

This Child and Family Support can init iate those reviews and they have the authority, and an agency does not have the right to say, no, you cannot come In and do that. Is that basically it? (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) Mr. Gll leshammer : That is correct. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, could the Minister explain the process of Child and Family Support in the · ongoing nego tiati ons, consult ations and discussions with the Child and Family Services agencies? Mr. Gll leshammer : I think the Member has covered the waterfront there.

They are involved in discussions and a process with the agencies on an ongoing basis and will be for some weeks to come. Ms. Barrett: They do have more than just a peer role in this process, because what you have said, they do have the authority to say, we actually can access your cases and your files, and we can make dete rminations as to whether you are providing adequate service, and we can demand that you make program or staffing or caseload changes . Am I overstating that situation or is that in actual fact what can happen? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: lt is the responsibility of the Directorate to monitor the care that has been provided, and the Directorate has passed on the

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2050 authority to do the job to the agencies. The Act gives the authority to the Child and Family Support branch of Government. Ms. Barrett: What the Act says is that Child and Family Support has the authority, and they are in a sense dele gating the implemen ta tion of the programs and the policies and the standards to these various external groups.

They still maintain that final authority and therefore have the ability and the right to go in and say you are not doing it properly, or you are doing it properly, or they have the right to go in and say, I need to look at these kinds of things so that I can determine whether the delegation is actually functioning properly. Mr. Gl lleshammer: Yes, tha t is corre ct. The authority rests with the Child and Family Support Directorate and has been delegated to the agencies to carry out that mandate. Ms. Barrett: Are there any records at all that are not privy to this Child and Family Support process? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: The Child and Family Support Directorate have access to all of the records. Ms. Barrett: Does the Child and Family Support Directorate have, through a computer operation of some sort-1 am assuming that there is a lot of computer programming that is done here-can they access information directly without letting the Child and Family Services agencies know that they are doing this? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, the answer is no, that they cannot access this information by computer. lt is an area that I am interested in.

I think we have a lot of work to do in terms of gathe ring our information in a computer syste m, and I think making some real reforms to the system by putting in place a computer program. * (1 520) Ms. Barrett: I have a concern in this area, probably largely due to the fact that I am virtually computer illiter ate so I am nervous about the potentials for what computers can do. I do have that concern.

I also have a concern, and I am not suggesting that there is any abridgment or any misuse of this authority and power, if you will , that this support directorate has, but I do have a concern that the client confidentiality is potentially at risk here. How many times would you say the Child and Family Support directorate actually accesses individual cases and goes through individual cases? Is that on a random regular basis, or do they do that pretty much when they thi nk there is something inappropriate happening? Mr.

Glll eshammer : Perhaps too, because the Member is interested, we could give you the duties of the director under the Act. lt might satisfy some of her questions.

The duties of the director under the control and direction of the Minister, the director shall administer and enforce the provisions of this Act; advise the Minister on matters relating to Child and Family Services; advise agencies; ensure the development and establishment of standards of services and practices and procedures to be followed where services are provided to children and families; ensure that agencies are providing the standard of services and are following the procedures and practices established pursuant to clause (

d) and by the provisions of this Act and the regulat ions; rece ive and hear complaints from any person affected by the administrative actions of an agency.

Also exercise the powers and duties of an agency in any area in which no agency is functioning; supervise or direct the supervision of children In care, and receive and disburse monies payable for the ir maintenance ; protect children in need of protection; ensure the development of appropriate placement resources for children; submit a yearly budget for the child and family services system and keep books of account of all moneys received and disbursed by the director ; prepare and submit an annual report to the Minister; perform such other duties as may be prescribed by this Act, by the regulations, or as may be required by the minister.

So the powers, or the authority, of the director is quite extensive. I hope that assists the Member to understand it. The question of the computers , I think, is again a direction that we would like to proceed in the very near future to provide us with information that is now done by hand in files and is just a far cry from the type of information gathe ring syste ms that are available in this highly technical world of ours. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I understand wanting to go from paper to computer. lt is not very clearly defined, because I do not know exactly what the plan is in this department, in this division. I do have some concerns that-1 guess on two levels. The confidentiality of individual clients is a problem for me. I am not suggesting that I cannot

2051 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 be convinced that there is not the potential for abuse here. The other is again the question of autonomy versus not autonomy or degree of autonomy with the Child and Family Service agencies. lt seems to me this has a potential for-and I am stating at this · point- being intrusive. I know that is a very strong word. I am just su ggesti ng that I am a little uncomfortable with who oversees the overseers, that it appears to be that the Child and Family Support division has an en ormous amount of authority over these agencies and can demand things of them .

That is a bit concerning to me just on a theoretical basis. Mr. GIUeshamm er: I take very seriously the Member's concems about confidentiality. I thi nk that confidentiality, in some very personal information that would be compiled on clients and foster parents that they reside with , is something that is very Important. I can assure the Member that there are systems that are available to compile information that have the confidential ity and the protection of th at confidentiality built into them .

On Friday last when we went up to Dauphin to meet with the MMF and other groups, one of the agencies we visited was the social allowance agency our department has in Dauphin, and they are fully computerized with a much larger number of clients. I think there are some 25,000 clients who access the social allowance system. This is a system that has been put in place for a number of years, and the value of the compilation of Information is very obvious how that information Is gathered and stored and the client served by the use of modern technolog y.

The point is still well taken that this is confidential information. No matter what system you use, that confidentiality has to be a concern. Confidentiality, or the breach of it, can occur with any system. Even though the Member is not computer literate, but an English major, I am sure would understand that the confidentiality can be achieved by the use of the proper programming. As far as the autonomy, it is a unique, in many ways, situation where the province is the funding authority and has the authority to deliver service but delegates that to agencies.

I th ink that this is a very young system that we are working under. Some of the issues that come up from time to time that might even be raised by critics is because it is a situation of decentralization that was created fairly recently, and certainly there are some growing pains there. We have talked about this being a transition year and the attem pts to stabilize the system. Some of the growing pains are ongoing, but we would hope that we are on the way to proving or providing a better system of service for the clients that come into contact with this department. * (1 530) Ms.

Barrett: I just have a couple more questions to have, I hope, clarification for myself on what I understand to be the plan for an implementation of a far-ranging computer data collecting syste m. I know there are programs available that can collect data that does not identify. I know there is also the ability of people to still go into paper files and see information. I would like to ask a specific quest ion, not about Child and Family Services, but abou t an area that I am mo re fa miliar with , which is women in second-stage housing. We have case files that are definitely not on computer.

They are very personal and in an enormous amount of personal deta il. Could someone come in to a situation like that and demand or ask for and expect to receive that file, or would they ask for and expect to receive the fact that this is a woman of 27 years of age who has three chil dren and this was the sit uati on, with out identifying Information, and this was the treatment model that was followed? Which of those types of data would be asked of by Child and Family Support division? Mr. GIU eshammer : We have not begun to think about automating the information collection from shelters.

The concern in the immediate future would be some automation vis-a-vis the Child and Family Services agencies. Ms. Barrett: I was using the second-stage example as an exam ple. There would be that kind of data available in a Child and Family Services agency case file as well. Would the Child and Family Support division be able to physically take a look at that file with all of its names and identifying data? Mr. GIU eshammer : They have that authority under the Act. Ms. Barrett: I. would like to ask a couple more questions.

Under Activity Identification, it states that this division will estab lish standards of service

November 27, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2052 delivery and evaluate agency programs in relation to these service standards. I am wondering if the Minister can describe some of these standards of service delivery. My understanding last night was that we had a discussion about one standard of se rvice delivery in rela tion to child protection caseloads. I am wondering if that is the kind of thing or if the Minister can give me a general sense of what standards of service delivery there are? Mr. Gll lesham mer: The Member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock), I believe, inquired yesterday about service standards, so we have the manual here in front of us today with those service standards. There are a number of areas that are identified under Program Adm in istrati on, Ser vices to Famili es, Chil d Protection, Children in Care, Adoption Services and so forth. I am not sure whether the Member was wanting to be more specific or simply wanted to know that some standards existed . Ms. Barrett: I am delighted to know that standards do exist.

I guess I am wondering, are they as specific as-because lt see ms to me this is important, because this division has a great deal of authority and responsibility to do an enormous amount of work with these agencies. I just want to get a sense of what kinds of sta ndards, because I know standards of service delivery, particularly in areas of service to individuals and families, are of necessity broadly defined. They can also be very narrowly defined. I am just wondering if these service delivery elements are a combination of both.

Are they used when going in and talki ng to agencies or saying, look, you are messing up here? Do agencies have the ability to take a look at this and say, wait a minute , this is a standard, and we are meeting it and you are wrong? Mr. Gll leshammer : This is the manual that the agencies work from. In answer to your questio n, they are acquainted with it and have access to it. Ms.

Barrett: lt is well understood by all agencies that these are the standards by which they are going to be judged, that they have access to them, and that they can dispute with the Child and Family Support their suggestions that these standards are not being followed? Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes, they have the information available to them and are privy to it and, I am sure, can enter into discussion with department staff, if they wish to discuss any portion of it. Ms.

Barrett: So we have a situation where there is a concern that has been raised or a concern that the Child and Family Support division says that the service standard is not being met and goes in and talks with the agency. The agency says, we cannot meet this service standard, because we do not have the resources to meet this service standard. Can the Child and Family Support division say, yes, you do have the resources to meet this service standard, and you will do this and this to meet it? Is that the kind of dialogue that could theoretically take place between this division and an agency? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: In practice the branch is ther e to support the agencies and rather than enter into an adversarial type of relationship, the branch supports the staff of the agency in doing the job that they are mandated to do. Ms. Barrett: I understand that it is best if these relationships are not adversarial and that they are collegial .

However, I would venture to say that any time you get into a situation where you are looking at reduced resources--o r rephrase that-where you are looking at a situation which appears to me to be the case in Child and Family Services this year, where one part of this dialogue says the cup is half full and the other part of the dialogue says the cup is half empty, that is tending to lead, not to a dialogue, but perhaps to a bit of tension and maybe working towards the adversarial rather than the collegial thing.

I am concerned about what happens in the worst case scenario where you do have disagreement between agencies and the Child and Family Support division. If things are working well, then they will work collegially. Systems are in place, and the test of a system is when it is not working collegially. My assumption, from what I have gathered, is that currently we are in a bit of a disagreement between Child and Family Services agencies and the Child and Family Support division.

When this takes place, my understanding then is that the Child and Family Support division can say to an agency, no- for the purposes of this discussion-the cup is half full and your half-full cup will have to do. * (1 540) An Ho nourable Member: Now I am total ly confused. An Honourable Member: lt would not be the first time, Jim .

2053 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 1990 Mr. Deputy Chairman : Orde r, please ; orde r, please. The Honourable Minister has the floor. Mr. Gll leshammer : I would like to indicate to the Member that the relationship between the members of this branch and the agencies has been a good one and that they are there to support them. We are talk ing about auditing cases and working with the m on case management. I am told that, generally, the relationship is a positive one. Ms.

Barrett: I am not suggesti ng, in many cases, if not the majority of cases, that is an accu rate assess ment, but I also think there are tensions in this year of transition that have risen to the surface. I am trying to understand the dynamics here. I believe I am correct in saying, If it comes down to a cup being half full or a cup being half empty, what the Child and Family Support division says is, in effect, what the agencies will have to live with . Mr. Gll leshammer : The analogy, of course, is an Interesting one.

The cup is act ually running over, and we are trying to just match the funding available with the services provided. That Is sort of the substance of the service and funding agreements. Ms. Barrett: I understand the substance of the , one hopes, soon to be forthcoming service agreements, but I am suggesting that ind ividuals' and groups' sense of reality is always slightly different. We all have an individual perception of what it is we see and where we are coming from. An agency that says- well, let us just take the example of the child protection worker position that was requested by Child and Family Central .

My understanding is the Child and Family Support division denied tha t request. Is that accurate that they said, you can find from within to handle that situat ion? Mr. Gll leshammer : The case that the Member cites Is a case of the age ncy staf fing beyond the prescribed number of workers, and the recommendation was that the resources be found elsewhere within the agency. Ms. Barrett: I am going to refrain from responding to the area that there is enough funding, because we had this discussion last night. I think that was a good example of haH full, half empty, or overflowing and almost empty.

The Ministe r responded by sayi ng tha t Chil d and Family Support division recommended that Child and Family Central find that position from within. Is that a recommendation, or can Child and Family Support division say, we will not fund you for that additional position? So that it is more than just a recommendation; it is a directive. Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, bec ause they have exceeded the ir funding guidelines, it becomes a directive. Ms. Barrett: Can the Minister show me in the Act where it states that if an agency exceeds its funding it shall not have access to additional monies? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: Yes, the Act does not get that specific, but under the duties of the agencies, it is indica ted that age ncies conform to a writ ten directive of the director. Ms. Barrett: I guess my question did have a bit of facetiousness in it.

I did not expect that the Act would have been that specHic and that there would be the authority, but I guess the response to my question sort of states what I have been trying to get at, that th is division does have authority over the agencies in their ability to-we ll, I would suggest-provide service as well as the funding, and that they are responding at the other side. They are responding from a policy state ment, a mandate, a directive, from the Government.

The Government says what we want to do in this year of transition is have Child and Family Services agencies provide us with balanced budgets based on the same budget that we allocated them for '9 0-91 and you, as Child and Family Support division personnel, will implement this Government directive. They in turn then go to the Child and Family Services agencies and state : This is the directive that we are sharing with you, and you will then conform to this directive which has come to us from the Government.

The directive is not in stone anywhere. lt is basically a governmental , and I would suggest to say political decision that has been made by the Government, political in the sense of it is governmental. lt is not necessarily based on solid, good social service theory. (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Gllle shammer: Some of what you say is correct. . The direction has been given to the agencies whose cup is overflowing to try and keep within its bounds, and hence the balanced budget.

Yes, the Child and Family Support branch does have the authority to indicate to the agencies tha t they have to live with in those expenditures. As you indicate , in this year of transitio n, there will be some

November 27, 1990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2054 priority setting going on. The system will be making some corrections and hopefully proceed into the new year with a balanced budget, and know exactly what services they are providing and what funding is going to be available. Ms. Barrett: I could go on on this tack, but I will not at this point. I do have a couple of other specific questions.

Does the Child and Family Support division have the same mandated authority over the foster homes as they do over Child and Family Services agencies, or are they in a different area as far as the ability of this division to monitor their services? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The foster homes relate directly to the agencies so that the department has a more indirect relationship, but the branch does in fact set standards for foster homes. .. (1 550) Ms. Barrett: The only way the division would get involved with a foster home situation would be if the agency said, we have a problem. Would they never get involved in that?

Is it that indirect that it would only go through the agency rather than through this division? Mr. Gll leshammer : We would be involved with the foster family if we were investigating a specific case , or if the foster family came directly to us to discuss this specific case . Ms. Barrett: Does that happen often, or is that an exception rather than the rule ? Is the exception the foster families deal more with the agency? Mr. Gllles hammer: I am told it is more of an exceptional basis that the agency would be involved with a foster family. Ms. Barrett: I am not clear.

So the exception is the division being directly involved with the foste r family? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: That is correct. The branch is involved with the agencies on a regular basis. lt would be more an exceptional circumstance where the branch was involved with a foster family. Ms. Barrett: lt says that the division recruits , trains and provides support to the 1 ,400 foster homes. Do they do that directly or is that done through the agencies? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Basically that is done through the agencies. Ms. Barrett: As I read that sentence, I see that it is all connected. Thank you.

The development of a province-wide strategy and implemen tati on of a care conti nuum, is that Structured Care Continuum the one that has been under discussion here? Mr. Gl lles hammer: Yes, that is correc t. The Structured Care Continuum was brought up by your colleague yesterday, and we discussed it last night and again today. Ms. Barrett: I just have a couple of quick questions on some of these service standards. Have they bee n implemented or not? The introduction of service contracts and revised funding systems and the expected results is, my understanding, under way, has not actually happened.

So I would ask: Has the establishment of service standards for delivery of homem aker and fa mily support programs happened, or is it under way as well? Mr. Gll leshamm er: I am told that this initiative is under way. Ms. Barrett: As it is under way, are there current standards that are being reviewed, or are there no exis ting standar ds for homem aker and family support programs? Mr. Gll leshamm er: I am told that the standards are partially developed. Ms. Barrett: So in the past there have not been st andar ds for homem aker and family support programs? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: There was some preliminary work that had been done in terms of standards here, but it is an ongoing process. Ms. Barrett: If there are concerns about any of the homemaker or family support programs that are currently being delivered, they would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis? There is nothing in those program standards manuals that deals directly with th is part. Mr. Gll leshamm er: As these standards are worked on and on th eir way to completion, incidents or cases would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Ms.

Barrett: I am interested in this because how long has homemaker and family support services been delivered? lt is interesting that there would not be standards on this one. Can the Minister explain why standards have not been provided for these areas ?

2055 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 Mr. Gll leshammer : There were some standards in existence to deal with very specific aspects of being a homemaker. I think it is fair to say that these standards are being expanded to take a more thorough and in-depth look at that situation. Ms. Barrett: Have the quarterly joint consultation meetings with agenc y execu tive directors and senior departmental staff happened? Are they just starting to happen? If they are happening, how long have they been in place? * (1 600) Mr.

Gll leshammer : Those quarterly meetings have been going on since the regionalization concept came into being. Ms. Barrett: Could the Minister elaborate a bit on the strategic service plan concept, that says in the Results ther e is going to be a development of one? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That is the service and funding agreeme nts that we have occasionally spoken of. Ms. Barrett: lt also discusses introduction of management training and development workshop for agencies, boards and senior staff. Have any of these taken place and if so, with which agencies? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: That refers to in-service training programs and board development, trai ning for boards. We are just working on some guidelines and programming for that, but the boards and staff training is accounted for within agency budgets . Ms. Barrett: So at this point these have not been held? They are just in the planning stages? Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, as far as the departmen t-di rected ones, but I dare say that boards have had their own in-ser vice training and board awareness sessions. Ms.

Barrett: Could the Minister give me a general idea of the kinds of topics that would be covered under these management training and development workshops, and why, given my understanding that there are a lot of these programs available from private agencies and other groups, the division feels the need to implement another set of workshops in this area. Mr. Gll leshammer : With any professional group, whether they be social workers or boards, whether they be teachers or nurses, the in- service training is an ongoing function that takes place.

From time to ti me, topics are identified, whereby some training and in-servic ing is required. I could give you the titl es of some of the workshops that have taken place, if that would help assist you understand it: Child Abuse Reporting Guidelines, Treatment of Adult Sexual Abuse Survivors, Child Abuse , AIDS Aware nes s Work shop, Medical and Chil d Developmen t Issues in Child Abu se, Family Violence and Wife Abuse. There are a couple more pages of them. I think with any group you can identify topics from time to ti me, whereby the latest thinking is important to present to workers and support staff.

This type of in-servicing would be a regular ongoing type of event. Ms. Barrett: I was thinking in terms of more general kinds of what do boards of non-profit agencies do, and how do they influence the funders to see that the cup is half empty rather than overflowing? I appreciate that this is more of a subject-specific series of workshops. I intimated from your answer that staff and boards are invited to these , so it helps boards as well understand the issues that the agencies are dealing with on a daily basis? Mr.

Gllle sha mmer: A lot of the in-servic ing, of course , is targeted to staff as those are issues that come up in the front line work that staff do. Certainly board development-if you look at any kind of board where people basically are appointed or elected to serve, some of them need assistance with financial background, how to read a balance sheet, others need assistance in simply determ ining how a proper meeti ng is conducted, how decisions are arrived at, the committee structures that may take place within a board. Essent ially, there is a growing period that boards go through.

As you appoint new members, somet imes the same types of sessions have to be held over and over again. Ms. Barrett: So that second type of board development was what I was thinking more in terms of. Do boards of the agencies ask for these workshops, or do the Child and Family Support division workers suggest that certain boards might benefit? Are the financial implications of holding these workshops recognized by the department in helping these agencies set their budgets? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: I think that any type of board devel opment tha t we can do has some real long- term benefits.

We have seen examples of boards who, for instance, make errors in judgment based on information that was brought forward that was incorrect simply because someone had not read a balance sheet properly. We would hope that this is something that we can get into in providing boar d trai ning and aware ness of issues and

November 27, 1990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2056 informed judgments and decision-mak ing. This is something that has not happened to any great extent. I think it is something that needs to be done. You can thi nk of examples of volunteer boards that perhaps you are involved with-- and I notice you are shaking your head to the affirmative, that board development would be a very positive thing. Service clubs go through this from ti me to time where new executives are elected, and the whole decision-making process seems to have hit a stone wall.

The organization of the activities and meetings and so forth just needs some sort of encouragement or some changes which would make them work more smoothly. There are a lot of private sector consultants now who do a lot of work in terms of board development. There may even be some of them nearby. • (1 61 0) Ms. Barrett: So the board development side of this ite m in Expected Results has not yet happened to any great extent. I could not agree more with the Min iste r-and plea se Jet the recor d sho w this -about the importance of volunteer boards knowing- Point of Order Mr.

Alc ock: Point of order, Madam Acti ng Chairman, I did not hear the full remark, but my colleague informs me that the Minister has made some comment about my providing consul ting services to the boards of Child and Family Services agencies. I would like to clear the record on that, because the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said the same thing. I did one workshop with one agency. The fee was dona ted to the Man itoba Foste r Par e nts' Association, and it was done after consult ing with the former Minister and receiving her support for it, because I did not want that fact to be used against the agencies.

I find that the actions of the Premier have been reprehensible in this regard, and I would hope that the Minister would not compound that error. The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Vodrey): I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Osborne for his comments . The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. That was a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Gllle shammer: I think the Member is reacting on information which was not tot ally correct.

We are discussin g the need for boar d trai ning and in-serv icing. ! am saying that there are a lot of private sec tor consu ltants that do that sort of work. -(interjection)- Yes, there are consultants within the City of Winnipeg who provide that sort of training. My comment was meant to show that you do not have to bring consultants in from Los Angeles or New York to do this sort of thing.

I can tell you that a former colleague of mine, who was with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees and who has recently retired, is working full time on board development with school boards, with municipal councils, with credit union boards and boards of all sorts. I think that is the comment that I was making, that the availability of resources to do board training and in- servicing is nearby. lt is something that boards have to be encouraged to take advantage of from time to time, so that they can function more properly.

Certainly, I did not mean to imply that anyone in this room would be providing that type of service. I am just saying that is an important function that we are in discussion over, and I think there was some agreement on. The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Vodrey): I would like to thank the Honourable Minister for his comments. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I was agreeing with the Minister and asking that be shawn on the record, that we both agree on the im portance of we ll- trai ned, knowledgeable boards. ! have two questions on this, and then I will move on.

Is the Child and Family Support division planning to be able to provide those board training programs from staff currently in the Department of Family Services? Mr. Gll leshammer : We spoke earlier of the agency relations staff, and it would be a joint effort with the branch involved here, that we are discussing, and the agency relations staff. Ms. Barrett: Will the Child and Family Services agencies that are-c learly in this being an expected result of Child and Family Support division, that they not only develo p these program s, but tha t advantage is taken of them by the Child and Family Services agencies.

2057 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 27, 19 90 I ask the Minister again: Do the current funding discussions that are under way with Child and Family Services agencies take into account the costs tha t would be req uired to fund these workshops, whether they are provided by Child and Family Support or external individuals? Mr. Gll lesh ammer: I am told that there is currently a line in the budget that provides for this type of training. Ms. Barrett: So that would presu ppose that agencies will be expected to take advantage of that line in the budget? Mr.

Gll leshammer : lt is not a new line in the budget. lt is one that has existed there before and that we would encourage agencies to access and to take advantage of in planning their ongoing training programs. Ms. Barrett: I will hold that for probably the next year when it will be a little further along. Finally, again back to the role of Child and Family Support division, it says that it funds Child and Family Services. Does this division decide or recommend which agencies should get funding and which agencies should not get funding? Does it have an input into that process? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: All of the agencies get funding. This particular branch does have an input into the budget process. Ms. Barrett: So this division would have had some input into the decision not to fund the Manitoba Metis Federation stand-alone child and family service agency? Mr. Gll leshammer : They would have had some input into the analysis that went into making that decision by Government. Ms. Barrett: I am wondering if the Minister can expand on the decision that his department has made not to fund that agency, or not to provide it with a mandate in funding? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Yes, I recall the Member raising this last week in the House. As I indicated at that time, I had one meeting with executive members from MMF and their president, Yvon Dumont. We met with membership from the MMF again on Friday in Dauphin and, basically, informed them that we have so many dem ands on Government for increased funding. On a daily basis, we get requests to improve funding for groups that we currently fund and to fund groups that we have never funded in the past.

I have not kept a record of the requests that have come forward or even the requests coming forward from the Honourable Member, but there are limits as to what Government can proceed with in terms of new initiatives. The Michif request is one that has been before Government for the last number of months. A decision has been made that we cannot proceed with that. There are many different aspects to it that have to be analyzed. One of the aspects, of cour se , is financial .

There are tr emen dous financial implications of the creation of another stand-alone agency in one area of Manitoba and probably would be expanded to other areas of Manitoba as well. * (1 620) There is also the issue of a duplication of service, that the service is presently being provided in those geographical areas. We have received a good deal of information provided by MMF staff, and I have indicated to them that I would make an atte mpt to go th roug h that mat erial and unde rstand the information that they are providing for Government.

At this point, we have informed MMF that we would not be proceeding with that initiative. Ms. Barrett: I was hoping to get a little more deta il, alth ough this seems to be the response on all of the issues and the organizations that I and others have brought up. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) it is my understanding then that there are no new initiatives or agencies that are being funded in this next fiscal year. Am I correct in that- this year of stabilization ? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Basically that is correct that we have improved funding for those agencies which are already in existence, and we have indicated to this particular group that we are not going to proceed with the creation of a new agency. Ms. Barrett: Have any of these agencies that are not going to receive funding in this fiscal year been told that they might be looked at in the next fiscal year? Have they had a sense that there might be some funding, not necessarily this particular one, but there are a number of agencies that- Mr.

Gll leshamm er: I have been very careful to indicate to agencies that if the answer is no, I do not want to leave the impression with them that they

November 27, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2058 were sort of that close to being a reality, and come on back in a couple of months. I th ink that is not a good way of doing business. One of the problems I th ink as I sit back and look at this department is that there are dozens and dozens of groups out there who have been sitting on the edge of the ir chair under the belief that funding was just around the corner, that adequate resources would become available. As I meet with groups like the MMF, I have had to indicate that the answer is no.

As we look ahead to the 19 90s and the levelling off of revenues that the Government of Manitoba is able to access, I cannot see in the immediate future a lot of large new initiatives. Having said that, there are others that I am sure are going to come back a second time and say to us, can you fund us this year? I see nothing wrong with that, but I do not think that we want to leave the impression that it is just a matter of asking a second time.

Some of these initiatives have immense cost imp lic ati ons for the imme dia te per iod an d tre mendous cost implications for further down the road, as they would have the ability to expand and expand and become full-fledged agencies. Rather than lead people to believe that the possibil ities of them accessing funding is just around the corner, I th ink I am trying to be very realistic with them and tell them that we have tough decisions to make and that ther e are tough economic times ahead.

We have to be able to make decisions on spending that spend money in the best possible way because we are going to be limited as to the amount of finances we have available. Ms. Barrett: I am going to end this part of my questions with just a couple of responses to that. I appreciate the Minister being as frank as he has been in reporting back to me and also in what he has been saying to agencies.

The Minister previous to him was not as frank and did in the Estimates last year, I know, on several occasions say that she had said to agencies, come back next year, we are looking at things next year. lt has been two years and new initiatives have not been funded to any degree as far as I can see. I appreciate the Minister being as frank as he is because it is very important for these agencies to know where they stand, even if where they stand is not where they want to stand.

I would suggest to him that the cost implications for some of these initiatives-the initiatives that I am particularly interested in are small init iati ves, agencies like Prairie Places and others where the per diem costs for pro

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8f1d581037967f433d0c50ae32f7cc168e9f5da8

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