Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Statements by Ministers — 4 December 1997 (43rd General Assembly, 2nd Session, Vol. XLIII No. 44)
1997-12-04
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
December
4, 1997
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS
Vol. XLIII No. 44
The House met at 2:00 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and
Labour.
MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Member for St. John's South stood
before the House of Assembly and implied in his questions to government that
there were inadequate measures in place to address the potential for an
environmental emergency, such as an oil spill, that might occur as a result of
offshore oil production activity. The impression created yesterday by the hon.
member was that other provinces that do not have an oil industry are farther
ahead in terms of oil spill prevention and response. Mr. Speaker, we believe
that these statements will unfairly cause concern: the people of this Province
need to know that there is in fact a great deal of planning and equipment in
place in the Province.
I rise today to provide hon. members with accurate
information and a clear understanding of the measures that are currently in
place to deal with the potential for oil spills off the coast of this Province.
The level of planning, training and equipment is so extensive that I can only
give examples in the short time I have today.
Mr. Speaker, the Province has been active in oil spill
response over the past twenty years. More recently, since the 1970s, there has
been a major effort on the part of the federal and provincial governments, and
on the part of the offshore oil industry to ensure all the right measures are in
place to prevent oil spills in the first instance through regulation and
education, and secondly, to be able to respond immediately and effectively with
clean-up operations.
Operators of offshore production installations are required
by regulations administered by the Canada-Newfoundland Petroleum Board under the
Atlantic Accord Implementation Acts to have contingency plans for emergency
situations, including oil spills. As well, operators are required to ensure that
personnel are properly trained in their response duties, and are obliged to
conduct annually a formal spill countermeasures exercise. In the event of a
spill, the Board is the lead government agency for ensuring the responsible
company takes appropriate action.
Mr. Speaker, government and the oil companies have made this
matter a major priority and have contributed many years of planning and
resources to ensuring they are prepared to respond safely and effectively to an
oil spill off our coast. Hibernia Management Development Corporation for
example, has ensured that their two new platform support vessels are all spill
recovery class and capable of operating as independent oil spill response units.
Oil spill response equipment is held on board the platform for immediate
deployment. As well, of course, the Hibernia tankers are double hull.
All vessels operating in Canadian waters and marine oil
handling facilities are required to have approved oil spill response plans in
place under the Canada Shipping Act as administered by the Canadian Coast Guard.
As a result of this, Eastern Canada Response Corporation
(ECRC) was established, funded by the shipping and marine oil handling
facilities owners. In Newfoundland alone, the corporation has invested between
$8 million and $9 million in response equipment. This includes five miles of oil
containment boom, a large number of skimmers, fifteen dedicated vessels and
several barges, as well as necessary support equipment such as a mobile
operation centre and a stand alone communication system. ECRC has 120 trained
personnel located throughout the Province with four full time senior staff
located in St. John's at the main depot. Mr. Speaker, ECRC is capable of
responding to an oil spill up to 10,000 tonnes of oil with all equipment on site
within seventy-two hours. Additional people and equipment can be deployed from
the sister company, the Great Lakes Response Corporation.
Mr. Speaker, ECRC is continually training and upgrading.
Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the spill cooperatives are holding their 6th Annual Meeting
here in St. John's today as we speak. The ECRC has participated in many public
information sessions and has had an open house and provided tours on request.
Today they will be inviting the hon. Member for St. John's South to tour the
facility and see the equipment on site.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR LANGDON: Canadian Coast Guard itself maintains a
greater than 10,000 tonne oil spill capability. Four of the fourteen Coast Guard
vessels have been refitted to operate offshore response equipment and 300 Coast
Guard Officers and crew have received oil spill response training. Coast Guard
maintains oil spill response equipment at St. John's, Stephenville, Come By
Chance, Burin, Burgeo, St. Anthony, Goose Bay and Twillingate.
In addition, Coast Guard has an air surveillance program for
marine pollution. The effectiveness of this was recently demonstrated when a
vessel was sighted nearby an oil slick and subsequently detained by the Coast
Guard in St. John's.
In all of this, Mr. Speaker, the provincial government has
been and will continue to be an active player in effective oil spill response
for Eastern Canada.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the minister, anybody can read a statement, I hope
you can answer my questions today. This statement has opened the door for some
questions today. I thank the minister.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and
Provincial Affairs.
MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me apologize
to my hon. colleague, the Member for St. John's South, in being almost four days
late. I told him last week that I would deal with the question of social housing
in two weeks and I am three days over - I am sure he will forgive me.
Mr. Speaker, I rise to day to announce the results of a
promised review of the rent-geared-to-income scale for tenants of the
Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.
In the time since I announced the review, this matter has
been carefully and thoroughly reviewed. Mr. Speaker, I believe that people who
live in social housing in this Province will be pleased with the result. Most
tenants in social housing will see a reduction in the amount of rent they will
be expected to pay.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. A. REID: This new approach is particularly sensitive
to groups such as single seniors, single parents and families with a number of
children.
Mr. Speaker, I am announcing today that government has
authorized the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to reduce the
amount of the planned increase by changing the household income threshold at
which rental increases would have been implemented. As members are aware, a
sliding scale approach was put into place whereby tenants would pay rent based
upon anywhere from 25 per cent to 30 per cent of their income. This scale was
designed to be sensitive to those with the lowest incomes and to families with a
number of children. It was also designed so that the small number of tenants
with high incomes would be encouraged to consider moving out onto the private
market because they can afford to do so - and thereby make room for those with
greater needs.
This sliding scale approach will be maintained because it is
sensitive to those most in need. It supports families and children and it
should, over time, result in the departure of those tenants who can really
afford to be out on their own.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. A. REID: No, I am not, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, I point out that social housing was designed as
a stepping-stone for low-income families in need of affordable housing. It can
help families move out of overcrowded, substandard accommodations. It can and
does contribute in a very positive way to a family's overall well-being.
It is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that people living in decent
housing are healthier, have greater stability, are more productive at work, more
successful in school and in society generally.
So, I say to you today, housing is a very important component
of our social safety net in this Province and it is one that this government
will continue to support to the greatest extent possible given our overall
financial situation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. A. REID: I think, Mr. Speaker, most members of this
House realize that as long as I am minister, it will certainly stay in effect as
well.
Mr. Speaker, in raising rents for social housing tenants, we
are following the lead of virtually every other jurisdiction in the country.
However, the rental increase here recognizes the circumstances of low-income
people in this Province and is much more lenient than anywhere else. Tenants in
New Brunswick or P.E.I., as an example, pay a flat rate of 30 per cent of income
and have been doing so for some time.
Now, I want to provide a few examples of the changes we are
now implementing. Under the scale which was implemented starting in July, a very
large grouping of single seniors - pay attention - would have experienced an
average rental increase of $43 per month. Listen again; I will repeat it. Single
seniors who would have an average rental increase of $43 per month, under the
approach I am announcing here today, this increase will be reduced to $14
monthly. This brings the average rent for this group of single seniors to $269 a
month for heated, paid accommodations.
Another example is a grouping of sixty-seven households
comprising two seniors. Under the scale introduced earlier this year, this group
would have paid an additional $64 per month. They will now pay an average of $35
per month, which brings their rent for heated accommodations to $389 per month,
which is a reasonable amount. A grouping of seventy-six single parents with one
child who would have moved to paying 26 per cent of income under the scale will
now not see any increase at all.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. A. REID: In fact, we now have 166 single-parent
families with one child, with no increases whatsoever, living in our housing.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, these rental rates are very
reasonable compared to the private market. Indeed, even at 30 per cent of the
income, most of those living in social housing are receiving a very considerable
benefit. Rent, by the way, includes a heat and hot water subsidy. Social housing
also provides a significant safety net, as tenants who work on a seasonal basis
or lose their jobs are eligible to have their rents reduced while they are not
working.
If I may, I want to take this opportunity to make it very
clear that neither the scale I am announcing here today, nor the one which it is
replacing, would cause a disincentive in any way for tenants to continue in the
workplace. The design of these scales was such that they would not leave a
household with less income than it would receive on social assistance. Indeed,
the approach ensures that growth in the clients' disposable income is greater
than the growth in rents charged.
In conclusion, housing assistance provided to those with low
incomes by the Province through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is a very
important and worthwhile service, and one this government takes very seriously.
The provision of suitable, affordable housing plays an essential role in
providing a stable home environment for children and comfortable accommodations
for our loved seniors. The approach we have used in designing a new rental scale
is a solution made only, Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland and Labrador, sensitive to
the needs of low-income people, and is the most lenient program found anywhere
in the country of Canada.
Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have to commend the working poor, the seniors, and the
single parents who have sent in petitions.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: Without those petitions, the greedy
government on the other side probably would not have looked at revisiting this
issue.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, I also have to say that I,
myself, am very proud, because I, along with the rest of my colleagues in the
Opposition led the charge to have this issue revisited and without this, the
minister never would have reduced the rates. Furthermore, before I send a note
of congratulations, I am going to personally view and study what has been done
here to ensure this, because my job is to serve the people I represent and I am
going to ensure, Mr. Speaker, that this is fair, that there is nobody going to
have the disincentive of living in housing and working.
Mr. Speaker, I will continue to work diligently on behalf of
the people I represent and indeed, anybody who is interested in calling me, the
whole government to task and to ensure that the greedy government on the other
side does not continue to put in place measures such as they have here.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources
and Agrifoods.
MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to advise the hon. members of the House of
Assembly that, today I have issued a commercial caribou licence in Labrador to
Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop in Goose Bay.
Mr. Speaker, I have not had a question in three weeks, I know
we have a lot to say.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. K. AYLWARD: I need protection, Mr. Speaker, I need
protection.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out
that, until today, only the Inuit of Labrador have held a commercial licence to
harvest and process caribou in Labrador and while the Opposition may not think
this is worthwhile, Mr. Speaker, a lot of other people will. This new permit
will not impact on the number of animals under licence to the Inuit.
Mr. Speaker, the George River caribou herd is the largest
caribou herd in the world with a population of over 700,000 animals. Its range
is spread over Labrador and Quebec. The combined hunt in Quebec and Labrador,
Mr. Speaker, does not even come close to the numbers which are required to be
harvested to sustain the herd at current levels. In fact, Mr. Speaker, if more
animals are not harvested, my department predicts a decline in the size of the
herd which is believed to have been a pattern in the past.
Although Quebec has had a commercial hunt for a number of
years now, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has always taken a
cautious approach to introducing a new commercial hunt. For the past few years
we have been expanding the recreational hunt as much as possible for both
resident and non-resident hunters. However, despite these efforts we need to
harvest more animals. I am therefore, Mr. Speaker, very pleased to announce the
approval of this experimental commercial hunt of caribou in the Western Labrador
area of the Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: A permit for 200 animals will be issued
to this butcher shop in Labrador, which could be expanded to a total of 500
animals, depending on the success of the start-up of the operation and the
marketing of the product. Mr. Speaker, our department will monitor the operation
very closely and evaluate its results before considering any further expansion
or other requests for commercial permits.
In the past, Mr. Speaker, the department has had a number of
requests for commercial licenses, including Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop which had
various levels of integration, harvesting and processing. Mr. Speaker, this
operation will have a completely integrated and value-added utilization of the
animals to be harvested. This involves harvesting, transportation, processing
and distribution.
Mr. Speaker, this harvest will take place within the Innu
land claim area. Government has consulted with the Innu Nation, who have given
their full support to this trial project. The Inuit of Labrador have also been
informed of this undertaking. Mr. Speaker, this initiative will lead to
considerable economic activity based on a renewal natural resource of wildlife
in Labrador and we are pleased that this will help start to help create more
employment and income possibilities for the people of Labrador. Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Tomorrow I would expect to probably hear the same minister
get up and announce that he is giving a sheep licence to Aunt Martha.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: It will probably make about as much sense
as this great licence here today.
Mr. Speaker, I really expect for the bond market to soar
today with this announcement. It is certainly good news for the Minister of
Finance. He has been beaming because he knows that the stock rates will go up,
the dollar will increase. My only problem is Uncle Sam, is that an American
company or is it a Newfoundland company?
Mr. Speaker, on a more serious note, I suppose we can't be
against good news. I have always been a believer myself that right here in this
Province we don't have enough wild game. There are not a lot of restaurants
where you can go and order a meal of caribou or a meal of moose or a meal of
partridge and I think this should be done. People come to Newfoundland to
experience Newfoundland tradition, experience Newfoundland food, Mr. Speaker,
and this is certainly a step in that direction. The only thing I caution the
minister about is - and it is obvious right now that this particular herd can
certainly sustain the 200 licenses that he is about to issue. I would like to
make him aware, if there ever comes a time, if we get into this and we have to
reduce the number of licenses, that he look at reducing the commercial licenses
prior to taking them away from the domestic license holders in Newfoundland and
Labrador. Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of clarification
in response to an Evening Telegram Editorial of today titled "Arming the
RNC" which says, and I quote, "What is disappointing about the whole issue is
the refusal of the Justice Minister to hold public hearings on the proposed
changes. Clearly, the public has a right to be heard on something this important
to their future safety."
The Justice Minister announced on November 28 that government
has decided to re-examine the arming policy of the Royal Newfoundland
Constabulary, in the interest of ensuring that the lives of the public and those
of the RNC officers are properly protected. The minister said at that time that
he, and the Chief of Police, would be speaking publicly about the arming issue
over the coming weeks in an effort to raise the level of awareness on this
important issue, and he also requested the Members of the House to pass along
the views of their constituents on the matter.
Mr. Speaker, on December 1, just three days ago, the Justice
Minister took the consultation process a step further, and announced, and I
quote, "Government has decided to hold more formal consultations on this issue,
and will consult with the Opposition to form a Select Committee of the House of
Assembly. It is our hope that this Committee, made up of members from both sides
of the House of Assembly, will begin consultations on the RNC firearms policy
with affected communities early in the new year."
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that The Evening Telegram
agrees with government that the public has a right to be heard on this important
public policy; however, the writer of today's editorial appears to have
overlooked the announcement of the Minister of Justice only three days ago about
the appointment of a Select Committee of the House of Assembly to do public
consultation on this matter.
In contrast to the assertion in The Evening Telegram
editorial, we are quite committed to the process of consultation, and we are
giving those interested in this issue a full and fair opportunity to express
their views. Furthermore, I am also pleased to advise anybody who wishes to know
that we moved two days ago to appoint members to the Select Committee. They are,
the Member for Topsail, the Member for St. John's Centre, the Member for St.
John's East, the Member for Humber East, the Member for Labrador West, and the
Member for Conception Bay South.
AN HON. MEMBER: Both sides of the House.
MR. TULK: Both sides of the House.
Mr. Speaker, our staff has brought this oversight to the
attention of The Evening Telegram . In conclusion, I encourage the
committee to be thorough in their consultations and I look forward to hearing
from them early in the new year.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am sure a response to the editorial would have served a
good purpose, a Ministerial Statement here in this House. It is no wonder that
we see an editorial when the Justice Minister walks out of this House and tells
people there will be no public consultation, and the Premier walks out a few
minutes after and says there will be. Is it any wonder that people are confused
on the issue? That is the problem, I say, they have their signals crossed. They
are operating in different directions, and it is no wonder we see editorials
like this. I say, get your act together.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today
are for the Premier.
I ask the Premier: Will he confirm that Marine Atlantic has
sent a proposal to the federal minister, David Collenette, regarding the
relocation of Marine Atlantic Headquarters?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether they
have or they have not. They have not sent us a copy of it.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a
supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess the Premier
conveniently knows what he wants to know.
I ask the Premier: Will he ensure that every job in Moncton,
and those that are not absolutely necessary in North Sydney, will be relocated
to this Province? And I ask the Premier: Will he fight to ensure that the jobs
are located here in our Province?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we support that
sentiment fully. In fact we, I think, unanimously passed - well, almost
unanimously -a resolution in the House to that effect last week.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a
supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I understand the Premier has had some discussions with his
counterpart, Premier Russell MacLellan in Nova Scotia, who we all know is facing
an election this spring and who represents that particular area. I ask the
Premier: Will he indicate the nature of discussions he has had, and any
behind-the-scenes concessions he might have made to assist his counterpart in
Nova Scotia?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition
is really getting desperate with these questions. The only thing he hasn't asked
me is whether my uncle is my aunt. Has he met the Premier of Nova Scotia? Did he
have secret discussions? Did he make secret concessions? What kind of secret
concessions did he make? Was he on the rack at the time? How much punishment did
he take before he caved in?
Mr. Speaker, this is an old and tired and tiresome tactic on
the part of the Opposition Leader, to make a premise that meetings took place
which never occurred, to make a premise that discussions took place that never
occurred, to make a premise that concessions took place that never occurred, and
then to ask the Premier to stand and deny it.
Mr. Speaker, when the Leader of the Opposition puts a serious
question, then I will offer him a serious answer.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a
supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am half afraid to ask if his aunt is his uncle, because I
am afraid the Premier wouldn't know. He usually doesn't answer.
I ask him: Will he confirm if he has had discussions with
Russell MacLellan, the Premier of Nova Scotia, on this matter?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker. The only people I have
consulted on this question are the members of this Cabinet and members of this
caucus, in particular the Member for Port aux Basques who has been most
persuasive and powerful in arguing for the case of the people of Port aux
Basques.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER TOBIN: And I will tell the Leader of the
Opposition who else I have consulted. I, and the Member for Port aux Basques,
together with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation met the council
and the representatives of the people of Port aux Basques more than a week ago.
We told them we would do our level best, as we have, to work for the greatest
number of jobs possible for Port aux Basques.
I will tell him who else I have met with. I have met with the
Chairman of Marine Atlantic and with the President of Marine Atlantic, with the
Member for Burgeo & LaPoile and with the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation. We told them that we want them to do everything possible to put
the greatest number of jobs in Port aux Basques.
I will tell him what else we have done. We have agreed, as a
government, to the extent that we can keep jobs through Works, Services and
Transportation as a result of the move to the ferry service for Labrador being
transferred to the Province. To the extent we can keep those jobs in Port aux
Basques, we will keep them in Port aux Basques. Those are the things I have
done. What has the Leader of the Opposition done?
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: I would answer that now but I would be
ruled out of order, I say to the Premier. If he will give me time after Question
Period, I will tell him exactly, if he would like to take the time in this
House. I will update him. I started to do it this week and the Premier
interrupted on two points of order.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. SULLIVAN: The Premier interrupted on two points of
order and would not let me finish, I can say to him, when I was telling him what
I did in this House just a few days ago.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: You ask your Minister of Health. She is on
public record as saying they should be in St. John's. I will give a copy of this
letter to you and to anybody who wants it, I say to the Premier, if you want a
copy of it.
Now, will the Premier ensure that Marine Atlantic does not
get away with having the perception of a headquarters in this Province, and have
the CEO and some other people working out of a satellite office in North Sydney?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, for anybody who listens to
the debate in the House - and a great many people do listen to the debate. They
come to the gallery and listen. Many people listen as a consequence of the
coverage on radio in the mornings. For anybody who listens, I do not have to get
up and explain to the public what this is all about.
It is very clear that the Leader of the Opposition finds
himself in an uncomfortable position. His House Leader, who I assume is
inadvertently absent today, moved a resolution in this House without thinking it
through, a week or so ago, which would have had the effect of moving all of the
Marine Atlantic jobs, including the ones -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer this
question, because the members opposite have split on this issue.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Two of the members have voted against the
Leader of the Opposition, and voted against the Opposition House Leader -
MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Baie Verte, on a point of order.
MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a simple point of order.
The House Leader, because of commitments, is not here today.
I would like for the Premier to retract his reference to that.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Premier will conclude his answer quickly.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the House Leader moved a
motion, had not thought through the consequence of the motion, and as a result,
the Conservative caucus split. Because the Conservative party has been playing
politics with this issue and, in the process of playing politics, is impacting
on the lives of Marine Atlantic workers who live in St. John's.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Two of their members voted against the
Leader of the Opposition and the House Leader.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the only Party that -
MR. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. the Premier to conclude his
answer.
PREMIER TOBIN: - has a clear policy on Marine Atlantic is
the Liberal Party, not the Conservative Party.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!
MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.
A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the Premier, it was his Government House Leader who
wanted to have that discussed that day. The Member for Humber East said: A
number of us got sandbagged. We were not even aware that you were going to have
it called, basically, he said, and it is in print. I will give you a copy of
that, too, what the Member for Humber East said. A number of them got sandbagged
on your side of the House.
I say to the Premier, on December 15 of this year, Marine
Atlantic will turn over responsibility for the northern ferry service in this
Province to the Provincial Government. I ask the Premier: Which option is this
government looking at? Is it looking at asking Marine Atlantic to continue to
operate that service beyond this year and subsidize as you have done this year,
to the tune of roughly $12 million? Does it plan to operate the ferry service
itself? Or is it planning on going to public tender for that ferry service on
the northern service?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition
cannot have it both ways. If any member of the House was caught unawares that a
motion was being moved, it is because the motion was moved and stood in the name
of the Conservative Party House Leader, Mr. Hodder.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Bonavista
South is making a lot of noise over there, heckling, but I just got a note that
the Conservative Party of Canada in 1994 received a $1,000 contribution from the
IFAW!
AN HON. MEMBER: What!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
PREMIER TOBIN: Another one of
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he is looking like a beached
seal over there, flapping around.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the Premier to take his seat.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!
MR. SHELLEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The Premier is supposed to be answering questions that are
relevant. I do not see any relevancy to the question that was just asked in the
House of Assembly.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious matter, I
say, for the people who are going to be affected by the shutdown of the northern
service by Marine Atlantic. Many people will be seriously affected by it, I say
to the Premier.
I am asking him to take this seriously and tell us what
government is considering, if an option has been ruled out, in all fairness to
these people. Is it an option that Marine Atlantic could continue? Because it
would have repercussions on the employees there. Is the Provincial Government
planning on getting into the operation of the ferry service directly, or looking
at going to public tender on that? They are fair questions, Premier, and I
think, in all fairness to the employees they need to have some direction, which
they have not had.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the member
that early next week, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, who
has a good command and control of this entire situation and is looking to
maximize opportunities throughout the Province and to maximize opportunities, as
well, in Port aux Basques - in the early days of next week, he will make a full
report to the House in a Ministerial Statement addressing all of the questions
that have been raised by the Leader of the Opposition. But I say to the Leader
of the Opposition and to the Member for Bonavista South who is looking awful
fidgety in his chair, that after a week of talking about the shocking
contributions to the IFAW, this startling revelation of $1,000 contribution to
the Conservative Party is upsetting indeed, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the Premier, if he has the proof
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on the point of
order.
MR. FITZGERALD: If he has the proof there of that
donation, I suggest he table it, as I did yesterday. Further, I say to the
Premier, I was no part of that party in 1994, but you, Premier, were a minister
of that Cabinet. You, Premier, had the inside line to all donations and you were
a party, Premier, to the donation in 1994.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing more
uncomfortable-looking than a goose that has been plucked and cooked attempting
to speak in the House of Assembly.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, this is a classic case -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I assume a question has been
put. This is a classic case -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The minister need not talk, when his own minister asked the
federal transportation minister to give consideration to relocating Marine
Atlantic's head office from Moncton to St. John's - a member of your very
Cabinet, Premier.
I want to get back to the issue here because the Premier is
trying to side track us. There are workers working with Marine Atlantic today
who are in a very difficult situation. They have not received the compensation
package that people receive on the Straits crossing, on the Bay of Fundy or the
Bar Harbor run from Yarmouth and now, on December 31 of this year, they will be
unemployed with Marine Atlantic.
Some of these people, Premier, have an option to relocate or
to bump within the system, and I know he made reference to it so I ask him: will
he ensure that when that announcement answers the question next week, will he
also have an answer for the people who are depending on this to make decisions
on relocating from Lewisporte today to some other parts of North Sydney, Port
aux Basques wherever it may be, that they will know so they can get the
information that they can make a decision before they become unemployed?
They have thirty days I do believe to exercise that
particular right, that they are not left dangling with families. And government
has failed to move on this issue. Will you let the people know in sufficient
time that they can exercise the options they have available to them under their
basic agreements?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter
is, that the Minster of Works, Services and Transportation has met this morning
for example, with an employee group here in the City of St. John's and the fact
of the matter is, it is time for members in this House, all members in this
House, to deal with this matter on the basis of fact and to avoid the political
games-playing that has gone on, because I say to the Leader of the Opposition
there are employees of Marine Atlantic, long-serving employees of Marine
Atlantic who live in the City of St. John's, who quite frankly are concerned,
arising out of the resolution put by the Conservative Party last week in the
House of Assembly and the way in which it was put.
There are members of Marine Atlantic living in Port aux
Basques who want to know what their futures are going to be and, Mr. Speaker,
what we need -
MR. SULLIVAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The resolution submitted by the Member for Waterford Valley
is straightforward and clear. There was no concern with the resolution submitted
by the Member for Waterford Valley. I want to make that correction so the
Premier will (inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I say again and, Mr. Speaker,
there is no point carrying on with this debate; this does not serve anybody.
This does not serve anybody affected; these are families, these are individuals
with homes; these are individuals with mortgages who live in St. John's, who
live in Port aux Basques, who want the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
and the Opposition of Newfoundland and Labrador to work for the best interest of
the Province, to put the greatest number of jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador
and to follow a policy of locating the greatest number of those jobs coming from
New Brunswick, Mr. Speaker, and the headquarters of the operation in the Town of
Port aux Basques. That is what we should be trying to do, work for Newfoundland
and Labrador not causing division within the Province and not playing games; and
I ask the Leader of the Opposition to take it as given, that we have met the
employee group here; we have met the council in Port aux Basques, we are working
for Newfoundland and Labrador, let us stop this partisanship on this important
issue in this Assembly.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a
supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
No, we are not a bit interested in playing political games on
this, I say to the Premier, not one bit, and I certainly endorse and I ask the
Premier to work in their best interest, the federal member for the West Coast
and the Member for Humber East with the statements - I will not waste time on
that here but I ask you to work in the best interest of all the employees at
Marine Atlantic who are serving in this Province whether they are in St. John's
or Port aux Basques, wherever they are, I think somebody should look at the
human side of this aspect and I ask the Premier to do that and to make
representation to his federal colleagues who have the power to do something
about it.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Leader of
the Opposition for that question and for that representation. I think that is
helpful; I think it is constructive and I want to assure him that is exactly
what the government is doing. I think we all recognize that when we are dealing
with these employees, long-standing employees, these are families, and you
cannot take lightly their circumstances; we all recognize that. Our job in this
place is to see that Newfoundland and Labrador as it should, because the service
is designed for Newfoundland and Labrador, gets the greatest number of these
jobs. I think we all recognize there are going to be jobs in North Sydney. There
is a service that exists there as well, but we all recognize that the point of
entry and the Terms of Union in Newfoundland and Labrador and the service, the
main point of service of Marine Atlantic in Newfoundland and Labrador is Port
aux Basques.
If we can recognize that, then we can all work together to
see that Port aux Basques is made the headquarters for Marine Atlantic in
Newfoundland and Labrador and at the same time, the employees who work elsewhere
- and there are some long-standing employees in St. John's - are not
unnecessarily treated or displaced, but rather, are treated with respect and
integrity and if we stop the partisanship -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER TOBIN: - and I think we have stopped today, Mr.
Speaker, I think we will make progress for our Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Kilbride.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions, I
guess, are for the Minister of Mines and Energy, in the absence of the Minister
of Justice.
Two years ago we debated in this House the notion of an
increase for electricity rates in the Province. At that time, the Public
Utilities Board set a rate of return for the utility, and a rate for electricity
for consumers for the years 1996 and 1997. To date there has been no rate set
for the year 1998. Can the minister explain why that has not taken place?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. FUREY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this is an issue on which I
met with the Consumer Advocate I think two or three days ago. Mr. Browne was in
and chatted with me about this. You are quite right; the Public Utilities Board
is under the auspices of the Minister of Justice, and I intend to raise that
with him at the earliest opportunity.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a
supplementary.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Mines and
Energy has met with the Consumer Advocate then he would be aware of this fact:
That the Canadian bond rate, which has declined from 8 per cent to 6 per cent,
is the single biggest factor that the Public Utilities Board takes into account
when determining electricity rates. As a result of that decline, I say to the
minister, Newfoundland Power, for the last year, have enjoyed excess profits
beyond which the Public Utilities Board ordered, which is 11 per cent, and that
if we do not set a rate of return for 1998, Newfoundland Power, as a
corporation, is poised to make an additional $8 million on the backs of
consumers.
The question then for the minister is this: Will he move, on
behalf of government today, to instruct the Public Utilities Board, which is
governed by
an act of this Legislature, to ensure that the rate of return that
was established at 11 per cent is maximized, and that excess profits made by the
corporation above and beyond what the Public Utilities Board has prescribed, is
returned to the consumer?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is partially
right. When the ruling came down, the base rate is a thirty-year long-term
yield, like a Canadian Bond, which it is measured against, and at that time it
was 8 per cent. It was after that ruling, setting the two years in motion, that
the Canadian bond rate dropped to 7 per cent, and just recently to 6 per cent.
Now, this particular ruling ends at the end of this year. Then, of course, we go
into a new time frame.
What has happened in the past is that whenever a corporation
such as Newfoundland Power has not gone for a new hearing, subsequent years and
previous years' rates kick in; but to ask me to go to the Public Utilities
Board, an arm's-length corporation, and to direct them to do something, I think,
would be inappropriate. It would be the same as asking me to go and tell them to
set the rates and fix the rates at a certain level.
What I will do is take it up with the Minister of Justice. I
think that the hon. member has raised some very good points. He is not alone.
The Consumer Advocate has come and spoken with me about this. It is something
that I am concerned about, and when I have had discussions with the Minister of
Justice I will make a decision.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a
supplementary.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it is appropriate to pass on
taxes on used cars, but it is not appropriate for the minister to intervene with
the Public Utilities Board to ensure that the consumers get the rate that they
deserve.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Is the minister aware -
AN HON. MEMBER: You do not know what you are talking
about.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: The Member for Kilbride does know what he
is talking about, I say to the government member. I do know what I am talking
about.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. E. BYRNE: No, I have not.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: If you would like to answer the question
when I get around to asking you one, I will ask you one and you can stand up and
answer it, when I ask you a question. Right now I am dealing with the Minister
of Energy. If you want me to deal with you, I will in due course.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Let me say to the Minister of Mines and
Energy that this member is not partially right. This member is 100 per cent
right, because every 1 per cent -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: Every 1 per cent decrease -
AN HON. MEMBER: Represents $4 million.
MR. E. BYRNE: Absolutely, represents $4 million. There
has been a 2 per cent decrease in the Canadian bond rate. As an example - I am
talking about for 1998 now, Minister. Forget the past year. We are talking about
for January 1, 1998, and the excess profits that could be made. As a result of
this decrease - just to use one tangible example - as a result of inaction, if
the rate remains the same, the City of St. John's could save if it was adjusted
to where it should be. If the power of the utility is enacted in terms of their
decision -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to
his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: - is the minister aware that the City of
St. John's could save in excess of $70,000 on their budget alone?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the hon. member has
raised some good points. I think we have to be very careful with arm's-length
boards that operate in a quasi-judicial manner. It would be totally
inappropriate, I think, for a minister to intervene into the workings of that
board and direct them to do certain things. That is why it is set up, it is
arm's-length. It has to function independent of government, Mr. Speaker. But I
will say this: the hon. member has raised a couple of good points, there is no
doubt about it, and some of his information is accurate. I have met with -
AN HON. MEMBER: Some?
MR. FUREY: Well, some of it is accurate. It is not quite
presented fully accurately.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the minister to get to his answer.
MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, most of the information is
accurate, but what I will do is, when I have discussed this with the Minister of
Justice, who is responsible for the legislation to the Public Utilities Act, I
also will reconvene a meeting with the Consumer Advocate. Maybe that is an
avenue we can look at to ensure that there is proper fairness and balance for
the consumers.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for
Kilbride.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I understand and agree that arm's-length boards are put in
place for a reason and that, to the greatest extent possible, they should
operate, but extenuating circumstances do exist where government has the power
to act. Now, if the minister is saying that the government does not have the
power to act, Mr. Speaker, directly, then it surely has the power to act
indirectly. So let me ask the minister - he just referred to it: Will he make a
commitment today that he contact the Consumer Advocate immediately, that a
hearing be proposed as soon as possible and that a reasonable and just rate of
electricity be put in place so that consumers of power, both industrial and
residential -
PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible).
MR. E. BYRNE: I did not admit it Premier, I said that I
understand the relationship exists in terms of an arm's-length board. I said
that if we cannot act directly -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: - we do have the power to act indirectly.
Will he contact the Consumer Advocate and do whatever is in his power to ensure
that a hearing takes place, so that industrial and residential consumers of the
Province pay the rate of return that the Public Utilities Board has prescribed
to be paid, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I am not interested in
Newfoundland Power getting any more profit than the Public Utilities Board has
outlined in that Public Utility Submission No. 7. What I said in my last
statement, in answer to the hon. member's question was, in fairness, I should
talk to the Minister of Justice - the Act comes under the Minister of Justice -
and I have agreed to do that.
Secondly, I will meet with the Consumer Advocate. I have met
with him before. He has briefed me on it. He has told me that the hon. member
was going to be briefed on it. I am glad he raised it in public. He has raised
some very good points. I will meet with the Consumer Advocate and if required -
you know that he is busy doing some studies with respect to the differentiation
of prices for gasoline around the Province; I hope that study will be completed
before Christmas. But if his time is freed up, I will gladly ask him to look at
this in the context of looking after the consumer of this Province.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for
Kilbride.
MR. E. BYRNE: One final question, Mr. Speaker, just so
the minister is aware - maybe he is, maybe he is not. Will he make a commitment,
too, to sit down with the Public Utilities Board? Because within the Public
Utility Board's mandate, that they review - will you make a commitment, on
behalf of government, to meet with the Public Utilities Board to discuss the
issue? On behalf of government, not you personally. Whether it is the Minister
of Justice or somebody else, both - the Minister of Mines and Energy, certainly,
or the Premier, could write a letter expressing concerns, could he not - at the
very least? I have certainly written to the Public Utilities Board and expressed
my concerns. I cannot see why the Premier cannot write a letter and express his
concerns on the issue - or the Minister of Mines and Energy. But within their
mandate they have the ability to review customer service issues on a yearly
basis.
All I am asking, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister, or
somebody from government, acknowledge that a problem exists, write the Public
Utilities Board, express their views on it, express their views on behalf of
government, to see what action can be taken - a very simple request, I say to
the minister.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member
for his questions. I think all of us in the House, as the member has pointed
out, want to ensure that Newfoundland Light and Power has no greater a rate of
return than is prescribed under the policy directives of the Public Utilities
Board. We all agree to that. None of us want to see the consumers of
Newfoundland and Labrador pay more than they ought to pay and that is
reasonable.
Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the, I think, good intentions of
the member who has just spoken, it is inappropriate, and I think he has
acknowledged that in his questions, for the Minister of Mines and Energy or for
any minister of the government, to give a direction to a quasi-judicial body and
under the structure of the legislation in place, the quasi-judicial body would
reject such an instruction, if it were so given.
Now, Mr. Speaker, there is an appropriate office that has
been established by this government, it is the office of the Consumer Advocate.
I think everybody in this Province recognizes, and the House has recognized, the
tremendous job that Mr. Dennis Brown has done in the past and the tremendous
service he has given to the consumers of the Province in the past. The Minister
of Mines and Energy has just said he will meet the Consumer Advocate. The
Consumer Advocate is busy now on another consumer issue, which is gas prices. We
expect to have his report shortly. But I am sure the Consumer Advocate, who has
demonstrated a superior capacity to deal with this issue and to argue forcefully
on behalf of the consumers, will be glad to take up this issue. I would ask the
member to accept that that is the appropriate way to proceed at this time.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for
Kilbride.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me be clear on what I
asked the Premier. I did not ask the Premier or the Minister of Mines and Energy
to intercede or to give direction to the Public Utilities Board. What I did ask
you, Premier, was that, in your capacity as Premier, could you write - as a
private member in this House or the Minister of Mines and Energy - write, as I
have, to the Public Utilities Board expressing my concerns surrounding the
issue. That is not giving direction, that is - as a private member in this House
we all have those rights.
Now, I will acknowledge, Mr. Speaker - because the Premier
has asked me a question and I would just like to acknowledge that.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: I agree that the appropriate approach is
for the Consumer Advocate to proceed and that is what I said earlier in that,
while government may not have the power to act directly, it certainly has the
power to act indirectly. So, I am urging the government to appoint the Consumer
Advocate on this issue quickly to ensure that a hearing can take place at the
earliest possible date within the power of government, so that this, I guess,
gouge of consumers, can be corrected for next year's rate.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the hon.
gentleman that if I have misunderstood him, and if, indeed, all members on this
side have misunderstood him, perhaps Hansard will correct the record; but a
little earlier in Question Period the member was asking - and I think the record
of Hansard will show it, there is a tape - asking very clearly for the minister
to intervene directly, suggested that government could intervene directly with a
quasi-judicial body. Now, he may have misspoken himself and I will accept that
that is the case. Mr. Speaker, he has now acknowledged that is not appropriate,
that the appropriate office is the Consumer Advocate; and, Mr. Speaker, I tell
him we do not need to name one, we already have one, and indeed, we will be
happy to refer this matter to the Consumer Advocate for the action that he deems
appropriate.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member has time for one quick supplementary.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Let us be clear, if the Premier wants to review Hansard, no
problem. If the Premier wants to review Hansard he will also see that a question
posed to that said: I understand the role of arm's-length agencies, and while
government cannot act directly or intercede, they may be able to act indirectly.
So, I think we are saying the same thing.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question quickly.
MR. E. BYRNE: A quick question: Do I understand the
Premier correctly, that he has made a commitment, that the Consumer Advocate who
is in place will review this issue on behalf of government to ensure that
consumers of power, both industrial and residential, will get a fair rate for
electricity? Is that what the Premier is committed to today?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the
member that everybody in the House understands that is exactly what the minister
said ten minutes ago, and I am glad now to understand that the member who has
put these questions - and I congratulate him for putting the questions -
understands it is inappropriate for any minister to attempt to give any
direction to a quasi-judicial body. And I know that his colleague, Mr.
Ottenheimer, would be glad to discuss that matter further with him after
Question Period.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Question Period has ended.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I again today rise in my place to present a petition on
behalf of a number of individuals, concerning the proposed tax rate on used
vehicles, that is being proposed by the government on the book value. Mr.
Speaker, there is no need to read all the `whereases', I will just read:
Wherefore
be it resolved your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador not to proceed with the legislation that would tax the sale of used
vehicles based on the book value.
This is an issue, Mr. Speaker, that seems to be catching on
in the public recently. I asked the minister a number of questions in the House
of Assembly with respect to this. The last question I asked him was, would he
consider looking at a two-affidavit system if necessary, whereby the purchaser
and the seller will sign the affidavit, and he said he would. I am just
wondering how long it is going to take the minister to make the changes or to
announce exactly what the proposed tax would be, whether or not there would be a
tax, or if he would throw it out the window.
I think it is a very unfair, unjust, and morally wrong system
whereby people would have to pay a tax on money they did not spend. I have given
an example in the media, where if a person were going to purchase from an
individual a car valued at $6,000, and he knocked down the seller to $4,000, he
would have to pay $300 on money he did not spend. That is wrong. The minister
can rationalize it all he wants, but he cannot justify it in the minds of the
people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has also been said that
this tax system is happening in other Province, but that does not necessarily
make it right that people in this Province would have to pay a tax on used
vehicles on money they did not spend.
The minister referred to the book value. He tabled in this
House a report that was done from January 1, 1996, to March 31, 1996, that
looked at some 200 vehicles. What it did not look at was the condition of the
vehicle - the assessed value, the mileage, the general condition of the vehicle.
Just to look at one aspect of this proposed tax increase, and one aspect of why
they should bring it in, and generally say that the people of the Province are
dishonest and that they are ripping off the government big time... How many cars
in this Province are sold for above the book value?
Also, according to what is being proposed, this tax will not
apply to car dealerships. If I buy a car from an individual for $4,000 -if I go
to a car dealership and buy the same car for the same amount of money, I will
not have to pay that tax, but if I go to a private individual, then I would have
to pay the tax. I do not think that is right. I think the people of the Province
are becoming more concerned as time goes on, as they learn more about this
proposed unfair, unjust, morally wrong tax.
I think the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board is finally
looking at it from our perspective - from my perspective, when I brought it up
in the House of Assembly. I think, in due course, we will see - hopefully... I
have to give credit where credit is due. If the minister does decide to back off
on this tax and bring in a more reasonable, fair tax, I will give him credit and
anybody else in the House of Assembly who has anything to do with changing this
proposed tax. I can only say that I will give credit where credit is due if
another member in the House decides to support me and talk to the minister.
On the Open Line shows, Mr. Speaker, I suggested to the
people of the Province that they phone their MHAs and put some pressure on their
MHAs and I know that the members on that side of the House are getting calls
every day on this issue, there is no doubt about that, Mr. Speaker. Members on
the government side of the House, and ministers are getting calls; the
backbenchers are getting calls on this issue. I can only encourage them to talk
to the Minister of Finance, talk to the Premier, and make sure that we beat some
sense into their heads and get this proposed tax dumped.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to support the petition put forward by the
Member for Cape St. Francis regarding the intention of the Minister of Finance
to use the red book. When we, over here on this side, hear of the Red Book, all
kinds of flags go up, because we know what misinformation - and how the people
in this Province were duped by a Red Book one time before.
PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: We are aware, Mr. Speaker - and I say to
the Premier, I will tell them about the IFAW if he wants to. I gave the Premier
my proof of the political donations to his Party; now I call on the Premier to
provide this member with the proof that he has, that a Party of which I was not
a part, and of which he accuses me, accepted a donation from this unscrupulous
group of individuals that is trying to destroy a way of life here in this
Province; and whether it was done by a federal party of which I am a part, or
whether it was done by a federal party of which the Premier is a part, it is
wrong. It is morally wrong, Mr. Speaker, and it should never have happened - and
I have no problem with that. The money should be given back, and I agree with
the Premier on that particular issue.
PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let the record show that for
the first time since I have been a member of this place, the Member for
Bonavista South agrees with the Premier.
Mr. Speaker, I know that under the rule of relevancy, we are
restrained slightly, and with your indulgence, I want to say to the hon. member:
Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on the petition.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, it is easy to see why this
member agrees with the Premier for the first time. It is the first time the
Premier was right. If he gets up often enough he is bound to be right. But I ask
the Premier if he would make a commitment -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is now on a petition and I remind him to
stick to the petition.
MR. FITZGERALD: I ask the Premier if he would make a
commitment to contact his cousins in Ottawa, to return the $20,000 donation that
was contributed to his Party.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. FITZGERALD: If it were done by a Party which I was
never part of, then I will make the commitment as well.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Question Period is over and I ask the hon. member to stick to
the petition.
PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.
PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and all
I ask is for equal time. I have been in touch today with the Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans for Canada saying that they ought to send back this
contribution from the IFAW and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, David
Anderson, has agreed. Now, I ask the member: What are you doing to be in touch
with your Party about the shocking contribution which has been revealed today?
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that he is now on a petition and his
remarks should be confined to the matters dealing with the petition.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the
Premier got in touch with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, because he knows
nothing about it, according to the Premier. The office knew nothing about
political donations. I am surprised he did not call the Minister of Finance or
his friend -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: I was never a minister, I say to -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. FITZGERALD: In fact, I only visited Ottawa a couple
of times. I was never a minister.
Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Premier came over here and
challenged me to a duel.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. FITZGERALD: I told him to set up the ring and I would
be there. We would charge admission.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to take his seat.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, getting back to -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that he is on a petition and he
should get to the matters dealing with the petition.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Before I was so rudely interrupted by members opposite, I was
speaking on a petition and I was referring to a Red Book that the Minister of
Finance keeps waving here and saying: Here is the book that we are going to use
as a reference.
I say to people opposite, and I say to the Premier, the
people of this Province have already been duped once by a Red Book, and they do
not trust it anymore.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the unfortunate part of this
piece of proposed - I suppose - legislation, or the thoughts that are being
entertained by the Minister of Finance, is that we are going to be charging a
group of people out there today, taxes on money which is not being spent. We are
going to once again hit the poorest of the poor, the people living in this
Province who cannot afford to go out and buy a new car.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: By leave?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.
MR. SPEAKER: No leave.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the Minister of Education, it is certainly -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day,
I move that this House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m.
Motion, that the House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m., carried.
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Order No. 11, Bill No. 40,
"An Act To Amend The Intergovernmental Affairs Act". I do not know whether the
Premier wants to introduce this bill or whether he wants me to introduce it.
Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The
Intergovernmental Affairs Act". (Bill No. 40).
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, what this bill, in effect, does is
- I understand, under the present statute, the Premier is basically compelled to
appoint himself or herself as the Intergovernmental Affairs Minister.
I can say to the hon. gentlemen opposite, having seen a
valuable piece of information today that they should all see, that in this
particular case, this Premier, according to a release that is about to occur on
numbers, on popularity numbers of certain people in this Province -
MR. MERCER: (Inaudible).
MR. TULK: No, I say to the Member for Humber East, I am
not going to give him the paper, but I think at 2:30 today the Province started
to learn that what I am about to say is going to be true, that this Premier - if
he chooses to remain Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, and regardless of
whether the legislation changes or not, this Premier will remain Premier of this
Province for a long, long time to come.
Mr. Speaker, there are some figures about to be released
PREMIER TOBIN: Now, `Beaton', behave yourself.
MR. TULK: You do not want me to tell them?
PREMIER TOBIN: No.
MR. TULK: There are some figures -
PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.
MR. TULK: We do not comment on polls, but there are some
figures, I say to the hon. gentlemen opposite, that are going to be released
shortly, if they have not already been released -
PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.
MR. TULK: But have they been released?
PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.
MR. TULK: There are some figures that are about to be
released that are going to throw their houses over there in complete disarray.
They are going to see a slide -
PREMIER TOBIN: No, we do not comment on polls.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. TULK: The next thing I know, I may end up as Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs.
Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the hon. gentlemen that they
should -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. TULK: I might, before the afternoon... Am I allowed
to supply them with a copy?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. TULK: No, I do not expect you to answer that.
PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls -
MR. TULK: We do not comment on polls, okay.
Mr. Speaker, in essence what this legislation does -
PREMIER TOBIN: - whether they are bad or good -
especially if they are bad.
MS S. OSBORNE: Call an election.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. TULK: I tell the hon. lady from St. John's West, she
is lucky that this gentleman here is the Premier and not me! Because from what I
saw today - election?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. TULK: There would not be one left over there, not
one.
AN HON. MEMBER: If we have an election, she will have the
same member but I will not.
MR. TULK: That is right. Exactly.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
PREMIER TOBIN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.
PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure members on
all sides of the House there will be no election anytime soon. We have work to
do over the next couple of years. And, Mr. Speaker, we do not comment on polls.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
I want to remind the hon. the Government House Leader that he
is now into second reading of a bill, and that comments and remarks at this
stage of the debate should be relevant to the principles of the bill.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the principle of this bill - and I
thank Your Honour for his ruling - is about the right of the Premier to appoint
either himself or herself as the Intergovernmental Affairs minister. Today, in
the legislation, this Premier is forced to appoint himself, according to the
legislation on the books, as the Intergovernmental Affairs minister. He wants to
open that up, being the democratic kind of person that he is.
I say that I think it is very relevant that this Premier will
be appointing himself, if he wants to, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. If
he called an election today, I think he would have to appoint somebody to be
Opposition.
Having made those few remarks, and having said that the
Premier wishes to change that, since he has the power to do it anyway - whoever
the Premier is, he/she has the power to either appoint themselves
Intergovernmental Affairs minister or someone else.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) precedents in the past where
that has happened.
MR. TULK: To be frank with you, I do not see the purpose
of the legislation. I would like to tell you about the legislation. We do not
need it. We just need to change it to take it off the books so that he can
appoint anybody as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs - that is the principle
of the bill, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Government House Leader has not given us an account of
the specifics there.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: No, on Bill 40 that is being debated. I
understand, under the bill right now, the Premier is required to be the Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs. This will give him an avenue now, I guess, where
the Premier will no longer have to be, so he will not have to step on any
federal toes over the next couple of years, I would say, as he tries to assume a
higher office. That is what this bill is all about, I say to the Government
House Leader. That is what I see this bill is about. He will not have to step on
the people he is going to turn around and ask for support in the next year or
two as he seeks to be Prime Minister of the country. Not happy in this little
old Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, he wants to pass it aside.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SULLIVAN: Some of the things in the bill here, some
of the aspects of the bill we are going to deal with. Yes, there are aspects in
the bill, there are lots of things in the bill, I say to him. There are aspects
here dealing with the Federal Government on agreements for our Province, I say.
Transportation initiatives, land claims, you name any particular things. The
Premier wants to stay away from all these little dicey items now and hand them
off to somebody else and take all the hits.
Like the poor education minister who wanted to be Premier. He
was getting his troops ready and the Minister of Mines and Energy said: No,
there is a big train coming down the track at you, `Roger', step off the track.
Stay off the track, `Roger', you will get your turn in a little while. I mean,
he is only here for a little while - he wanted to get back here, and then he
will go back at the big job when Jean Chrtien's time comes to an end. He will
get back up there and go for the job again. You will get your chance, `Roger'.
Things have changed. Education - `Roger' crossed the Rubicon,
as I said before. He made his decision: Premier, I will take all the hits you
need on education, give it to me and I will do the job. I am not going to be
around after the next election and I say to the Government House Leader, they
predicted the last time we were going to be wiped out, not going to be one Tory
left in the Province, and I said to him at the time, come up in Ferryland
district and it will be close to seventy per cent, that is what the polls are
telling me up there on day one and on day five, the only difference was that the
undecided went down from twenty to five over the course of the campaign and the
per cent was exactly the same. The colleagues around here, they are all here,
they are all survivors, the people you see here, I can tell you.
MR. FITZGERALD: The bi-election -
MR. SULLIVAN: The benches will start to swell. The
bi-election in a Liberal stronghold - seventy per cent of the vote, and we had a
member go in there and swept it in fine fashion, in a bi-election and we are
just wondering where the next bi-elections are going to be. There are ministers
MR. FITZGERALD: Tell them about Rex Gibbons.
MR. SULLIVAN: There are people who want to give it up and
retire. They get bigger pensions than they would by being in here, but they
cannot go. They are not allowed to retire in dignity. They have to suffer it out
here now. They are afraid of another bi-election, the Premier is. He does not
want to see the opposition numbers swell over here because the only real ones
that count are the ones in the ballet box, I say to the Premier, like we had in
St. John's West and like we will see in other bi-elections I am sure, as the
time comes. The Government House Leader -
MR. TULK: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: - thinks he is going to wipe us out. We are
pretty resilient. I do not want to see any more quick ones. I have gone through
four now, I say, in five years, that's enough for a while. We do not want to
face any others. I am sure the Premier is eager to get that second one in, I
know that, but still he is not going to get it in before the federal job comes
open, I say to the Premier. That federal job is going to come up before he
becomes eligible. Before he gets his magic number in, there is going to be a
call from up above and he has to make his decision. He has to decide what he is
going to do. I am sure -
PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible) any other job.
MR. SULLIVAN: Don't be so foolish, I say to the Premier.
Why would you want to get rid - I asked him
MR. FITZGERALD: He is skating on the (inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Why can the Premier skate? He skates well
on issues, I can tell you. I hope he skates as well on ice as he does on those
issues.
MR. FITZGERALD: He is good at stick handling.
MR. SULLIVAN: We have all of those changes -
constitution, we have energy coming up. He is going to concede to give the
energy of Lower Churchill away, (inaudible) for the federal government to come
on stream. He does not want to do anything with any dicey issues here. He will
pass that off to his intergovernmental affairs minister.
Who Premier is going to take on the job of intergovernmental
affairs? Who does he have earmarked for that?
AN HON. MEMBER: Chuck.
MR. SULLIVAN: I would say Chuck. His travelling has been
curtailed somewhat and he is really starting to miss the jet edge now. He got
use to jetlag, he needs to get back into the jetlag edge again, I say to the
Minister of Mines and Energy. Yes, I said the Minister of Mines and Energy is
suffering withdrawal symptoms from jetlag and now he wants to get nursed back
into intergovernmental affairs, so the Premier -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: - I do not have to take any pills for my
health, I never took one in my life, I say to the Premier, any kind of one. I am
healthy.
AN HON. MEMBER: Not even an aspirin.
MR. SULLIVAN: No - yes, I took two in my life, two
aspirins. That is about it, seriously and I am not joking. I am not sure if I
was ever on medication in my life. I probable might have been.
AN HON. MEMBER: Loyola, you have never taken a pill in
your life
MR. SULLIVAN: I might have taken two or three. I do not
recall having prescriptions. I might have had one prescription. Aspirins, I do
not take aspirins.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: I do not live in Calvert. I live in
Fermeuse, but they do feed me in Calvert when I go back there I can tell you.
So, the Premier wants the Member for St. Barbe, the Minister
of Mines and Energy to take on this new post. The new minister of
intergovernmental affairs, is he going to run again? There might be some bad
news in those negotiations with the federal government he might have to take. I
am sure if there is good news in it, the Premier will step in.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: No, the new intergovernmental affairs - oh,
my heavens, if he is ever the new Premier, we have a lot of problems.
MR. J. BYRNE: Bad enough now.
MR. SULLIVAN: Somebody is pointing at the Government
House Leader. Did anyone ever see a bull in a china shop? Did anyone ever see
that? That is the Government House Leader.
MR. FITZGERALD: He has changed.
MR. SULLIVAN: Oh, he has changed.
I remember when he sat way back up there and the former
Premier would not let him down near him. He had to suffer in exile, not only the
exile of being put out in the wilderness by the former Premier but he was even
exiled by a member of our side of the House for four years. Then to get back in
the House again and his own Premier exiled him and made him suffer the agony of
being back in the back benches again. He got a little uneasy at times.
MR. FITZGERALD: He sat sideways for three years.
MR. SULLIVAN: Supporting the bill? How can I support an
attempt by the Premier to take away responsibilities as the first minister of
this Province, he should have a right and should have a responsibility to deal
with the federal government, his bosom buddies, his cousins, on particular
issues. In an issue today, I said to the Premier, I think the Premier should be
the right person in the Province to deal with the federal government. Particular
issues are important, we talked about one today with Marine Atlantic. I strongly
say to him, speak with your former colleague and your member in the federal
government on issues here pertaining to our Province. You can't just pick and
choose the issues you want, to represent our Province when it is good. As my
colleague from Bonavista South said, `you can't sing with the angels and sleep
with the devil.' In other words, you can't just pick the issues that are good
and are going to help your cause and pass the others off. You have to deal fair
and square, you have to deal with the issues as they come, that is important.
The Premier is good at deflecting things. He does not want to
step on any toes. He is going to be looking for his federal counterparts support
and that is the nature of this bill. That is the purpose of this bill here, so
the Premier does not upset anybody in Ottawa. He always plays to the Ottawa
agenda. The national agenda. He is not interested here in this Province. If it
is a unity issue, up and down. If it is out-migration, you don't hear from him.
If it is rural Newfoundland, the enhancement of rural Newfoundland, you don't
hear from him. You rarely hear anything except when there is a little bit of
good news, he will try to (inaudible) that and avoid the ninety-nine things that
are not good.
So that's what he is trying to do. He is trying to deflect
responsibility as Premier of this Province and carry on responsibilities for the
people here. That is some of the things he is trying to accomplish here. Some of
the things that people are starting to see through. They see that he has to go
up to his federal minister, David Collenette, and he has to go up to David
Anderson, he has all these people to look for their support. The last thing he
wants to do is walk on the toes of any of these people. He wants to soft pedal
it for the next little while, hoping that it won't come too quick because if it
comes too quick his former colleague, Paul Martin, has the upper hand. He would
like to prolong it a little bit around there. As Paul Martin gets closer and age
is there, he figures he might have a chance at the national scene.
I attended a parliamentary conference in Quebec back in
September and yes, there was some checking around and checking out the landscape
on the federal scene by people on this issue.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: You should be listening. Read it in Hansard
tomorrow.
There are little movements afoot; the Premier is getting his
little nest ready on the national scene. People are touching bases with some
people up there. Ask some of the Liberal members across Canada. I had a chance
to rub shoulders at a parliamentary conference there. The feelers are out. It
has started already. He's hardly back to this Province here and he wants to
leave. Now he wants, in a bill here, to throw attention, he served us well.
Isn't the bill serving us well? What's wrong? Does the Premier figure he is
incapable of dealing with the responsibilities? No, the time has come and the
crunch is coming. It is too close to the federal leadership for the Premier to
want to have the responsibility of intergovernmental affairs. He wants to give
it to somebody else because how can you, on one hand, like my colleague from
Bonavista South said, how on one hand can you take $10,000 from the IFAW and
then stand up when he is popular in front of everybody who is in favour and
preach a different tune? How can you condemn the federal government, go after
them for concessions and turn around and look for the support of the same people
in another year or two time? How can you do it? That is the nature of this. The
Premier wants to stay out of the scene here and that is part of his agenda. I
can tell you it is not a provincial agenda the Premier has at all. It is
strictly a national agenda.
These are some of the things in this bill that the Premier is
trying to do. He is trying to ensure that he doesn't rub anybody the wrong way,
doesn't step on any toes in the process. He is trying to make sure of that, I
can tell you. I'm sure my colleagues are very much aware of that. It is not a
bill to say it is something we don't need, that isn't the purpose at all. They
might hide that.
The Government House Leader didn't get up and give us
analyses and notes basically on what the intent behind this bill is. Not at all.
How many bought what he said? He didn't tell us anything. Normally when you get
up to introduce a bill you give the clauses of the bill, you tell the role of
each clause, and what the changes are, and why they should be made. We didn't
hear any of that stuff because they don't want any of those things to come out.
That is basically the problem, I say to the Government House Leader.
I'm sure some of my other colleagues are waiting to have a
few comments on this bill here. I'm sure they have some particular words of
wisdom they want to put forth to the Government House Leader. With that, Mr.
Speaker, I conclude my comments on Bill 40.
MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): If the hon. the Premier speaks now
he will close the debate.
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to speak
briefly on Bill 40 because the bill in question is a rather straightforward bill
that doesn't do any of the things that have just been suggested by the Leader of
the Opposition. Rather, it is simply a bill which places the Intergovernmental
Affairs portfolio, gives it exactly the same status as every other ministry
within the government.
There happens to be a requirement,
an act, as part of the
Intergovernmental Affairs Act currently on the books which has a stipulation
establishing the department of Intergovernmental Affairs that the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs will always be the premier of Newfoundland and
Labrador. That reflects the view of a previous office holder in the premier's
office, and indeed for the moment I am the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs. It may well be I will carry on being Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs as long as I am here.
I think what is important, and this is the principle that is
important, is that all of these portfolios ought to be part of the menu before
the premier of the Province, whoever the premier happens to be, whoever she or
he may be at any given point in time, to make a decision as to where the talents
that are available can best match the jobs that are required to be done.
The only purpose of the government in putting forward this
bill is to put the ministry or the department of Intergovernmental Affairs on
exactly the same basis as every other department. For the moment I've taken, I
should say, no decision to not carry on as Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs. I may well carry on in this portfolio in addition to my job as Premier
for some time to come. By definition, a premier of the Province is always
involved in any case in matters of relationships between the provincial
government and the federal government, amongst the provinces. That is natural.
There are a great many items today that require time and
attention. As long as I'm able to give them my full time and attention in terms
of Intergovernmental Affairs, I will carry on. If at some point it requires
somebody else to take a hand in the administration of that department, I will
make that judgement. What is important is that the interest of Newfoundland and
Labrador be fully served.
The Leader of the Opposition practically made a nominating
speech for me for another job some other time, some other place. Mr. Speaker,
lest there be any doubt about it whatsoever, let me say it clearly: I intend to,
if the members of my Party will have me, will carry on with me, shoulder to
shoulder, I intend to lead the Liberal Party clearly in the next election
campaign in this Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Member for Cape St. Francis, are you speaking on a point
of order?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: No, the indication was that the Premier was
speaking to close debate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, on
a point of order.
MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier's last
statement, all I have to say to that is this. There is an old statement with
respect to the people in this Province who replied to them in the last election:
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, and they will know in
the next election, they will not give it to you twice.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Intergovernmental
Affairs Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole
House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 40).
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Bill 6, Order No. 15.
Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income
Tax Act", (Bill No. 6).
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I wish in many ways that the
Minister of Finance were here to read out this -
AN HON. MEMBER: He is just outside the door.
MR. TULK: Is he just outside?
Mr. Speaker, wait a minute, I would like to get him in
because I do not want to have to run through this good news again and the bad
news over there.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. TULK: We are going to talk about this bill, it is
another good Liberal measure that we are undertaking here.
The Minister of Finance will open debate, Mr. Speaker, on the
Income Tax bill, Bill 6.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance, on Bill 6.
MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will be brief. This bill, essentially enables us to pay an
income tax credit or, rather under the HST, a low income, to lower-income
people. We indicated in the Budget last year, that we would be introducing a tax
credit to lower-income people in conjunction with the existing GST credit. As
things turned out, the federal government would not implement it for us until
legislation was passed, and it is our hope that this House will see fit to pass
it shortly so that we could have it ready to be sent out to the individuals of
the Province who qualify for it. It would be nice for many people to receive
this cheque, Mr. Speaker, prior to the Christmas-time. Revenue Canada will not
issue payments until Royal Assent has been received so we would like to get the
House to approve the payments which we have suggested and to have His Honour
consent to it in due course. We will do it by either way of direct deposit or
mailing - need I say more - Direct deposits will take a minimum of three days. I
doubt if anyone would speculate how long the mail might take. In any event, if
this House should, in its wisdom, see fit to pass it, we would then arrange for
an appropriate mechanism for it to reach those who are qualified.
As hon. members may recall, the credit is $40 per adult and
$60 per child and it starts to phase out at $15,000. I would also like to point
out that the credit was given for greater certainty, (inaudible) shown, Mr.
Speaker, that the change we made to the retail sales tax in the Province,
amalgamating it with the existing GST was beneficial to all income groups, even
those in as low as $10,000 per family unit and that people in that category
would save in the vicinity of $1,000. So, Mr. Speaker, I feel comfortable in
recommending to this House that we pass this legislation so that the government
can issue to the people of the Province the credits that we had intended to in
our spring Budget last.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We supported, actually from day one, any aspects that the
government would take to lighten the burden for lower-income people from the
HST. In fact, we indicated that government did not proceed far enough at all on
instances. While, granted, $40 is something, it is not near enough to compensate
for the extra taxes that these people had to pay on their lighting, their
heating bills and other basic necessities that are affected by HST. Everything
from haircuts - even to get out of the world there was a tax of 15 per cent on a
funeral that we did not have, so we have had an increase. We have had a
tremendous increase.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: I can tell you, it is not a dead issue. It
is a real, burning issue today for everybody who is alive. It is a very active
issue for all of us. It is a burning issue, and if I could light the fire under
the minister to do more for low-income people... I mean, $40 is almost an
insult, and somebody under $15,000 - to start the claw-back at $15,000.
Under benefits, I say to the minister, I think under federal
government, they don't start clawing back, I think, until $20,921. He is not
listening. Mr. Speaker, he is just not listening. He just introduces a bill and
runs. I cannot get his ear to get a response.
I said that the claw-back starts federally, I think, at
$20,921, when they start clawing back income, and here we are clawing back on
$15,000 and saying we are going to give somebody $15,040. Now $40 on $15,000 is
not significant when you look at the hundreds of dollars extra they are paying
on their light bills, their heat bills, gasoline, fuel, and numerous other
essential costs - even the cost of haircuts, the cost of funerals. At the same
time this very government reduced the taxes on a fur coat, people saving
hundreds and hundreds of dollars on one single item, and they nail and crucify
people who can hardly make ends meet, who won't even turn up the furnace in
their house or turn on the heat because they are cold; and here we are, going to
give back a measly amount.
I support giving them back the money. We do not have the
heart to not support it, any amount of money to give to these people, but I can
tell you that it is a grossly inadequate amount of money that is certainly not
going to do the job that is needed. Because, over the last while we have seen in
this Province that people have been hit extremely hard, I say, very, very hard.
People have been hit by government actions in numerous areas affecting seniors
and low-income people.
We have just seen the minister today make some reference, in
a Ministerial Statement, to make some alteration of change for certain
individuals who are affected by this housing area. There are still other people.
This change today is not even near enough to compensate for the increase to
these low-income people on GST, when you add up the basic essentials, and the
costs that these elderly people must pay.
Anybody who saw on TV yesterday this elderly couple, a couple
I had spoken with, people on a very, very low income, I might add, on an
extremely low income, trying to make ends meet. The lady indicated it had been
seven years since she bought a dress.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: No. You can send me over a copy.
Over all, it is very sensitive when we start talking about
what impact this government has had on low-income people. It hits a nerve, I say
to the Government House Leader. It hits a nerve when you talk about cutbacks to
low-income people, how they are crucified with taxes on GST.
Health care is another very critical example. They are
talking about freezing a budget in health care in inflationary times. Freezing a
budget is a decrease, especially in medical equipment where the cost of
equipment is very expensive.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I will get to you in about an hour. I
think I am allowed an hour on this bill. I won't use the full hour, I say to the
Government House Leader, but I will give him ample time.
MR. J. BYRNE: How much time do you need?
MR. SULLIVAN: And I am sure my colleague from Cape St.
Francis has talked about how we have been crucified with fees and permits and
licences over the last while, indirect taxation. They tell the people there is
no increase in tax, and the Premier says we will have a reduction in personal
income tax; but, he said, it won't be in the next few years.
What they should do first of all is start getting rid of the
tax on jobs, the head tax on jobs in this Province, the payroll tax. Every
person you hire, you pay extra money.
MR. TULK: You should see how much.
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I say to the Government House Leader.
I say the only thing not going down are taxes. Taxes are going up here,
according to government. Taxes according to government are increasing rapidly.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Good. That means there is a lot of room for
improvement, I can say to the Government House Leader. There is tremendous room
for improvement, I would say to the Government House Leader. This bill here on
income tax, and I would say here basically on income tax, they are talking about
reducing income tax when they are crucifying people right, left and centre.
We have seen $73 million taken out of education. We have seen
fees and permits, marriage licences, and numerous other areas. All we have to do
is look at the list in this year's Budget. Look at the fees, there are numerous
fees. This government talked about a three-year budget. Two pages in the 1997
Budget about a three-year plan, a three-year plan, I say, wrapped into two
pages. Two particular pages, I might add.
Registration on duplicate vehicle registration, from $8 to
$15. It is a doubling. Special permits from Motor Vehicle Registration from $0
to $300. I see dealer plates and taxi registration from $80 to $120 each. We
have had the fees for mining leases and quarry permits gone up 100 per cent
increase, from $40 to $80.
Here is an order we could use for government, an execution
order. We could use a few of these for government. A 50 per cent increase, from
$20 to $30. I ask the Government House Leader, could we have thirty-five
execution orders? They are gone up from $20 to $30. Notices of appeal,
attachment orders, certificates. I mean, unbelievable. Pages and pages. To get a
disclosure document right now costs $25 and it cost nothing before. Accident
letters. A letter on an accident now, a person has to get, I think, before they
can get their licence renewed, a clearance, $50. Accident letters that are
provided by the Newfoundland Constabulary, to go in now you pay $50.
AN HON. MEMBER: What do you mean, accident letters?
MR. SULLIVAN: I assume accident letters - I think my
colleague would know - an accident letter is to indicate a clearance for
insurance purposes. An accident letter, is that a clearance? If somebody is
getting insurance, or a new person, and so on, I think, it is a $50 fee. For
somebody getting a certificate of conduct, they are looking for a job, $25 to
get a letter of conduct. Imagine, $25 for someone to say you are doing a good
job. Unbelievable. Certificate of conduct, you would need about 100 of them, 100
applications to get a job. You would need $2,500. Administration fee on traffic
fines, $7. The property conveyance of a dissolved company now is $750 from $0.
Can you imagine? The photocopy, $1. Certificates of readiness, from $20 to $60.
MR. FITZGERALD: How about the fellow who went to court
and paid $50 for a written transcript of his judgement?
MR. SULLIVAN: How much?
MR. FITZGERALD: Fifty dollars.
MR. SULLIVAN: Fifty dollars that when they read it out
verbally there he had to go back and get a record just to get a clarification
written of what the order was, where he could go, and how far he could stay from
the ocean. He had to pay $50 to find out how close he is allowed to walk to the
ocean. Now, can you imagine, $50. If that isn't a tax... A man was given a
sentence, he went back to find out what the sentence was, he didn't get all the
details, had to pay $50 to find out how many feet, is it, he is allowed to go
MR. FITZGERALD: The judge would only allow him so many -
MR. SULLIVAN: So many feet from the salt water.
MR. FITZGERALD: - feet from the fresh water.
MR. SULLIVAN: He had to go back to get a letter. Fifty
dollars to find out how many feet he could come within the salt water.
MR. FITZGERALD: He was from your district, Gerry, down
your way.
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes. The District of Twillingate & Fogo.
AN HON. MEMBER: Who?
MR. FITZGERALD: I have his name. He has a cabin so many
feet closer to the fresh water. He couldn't even go there.
MR. SULLIVAN: Can he move his cabin?
MR. FITZGERALD: He's not so sure if he can even live in
his own home because he is close to the salt water.
MR. SULLIVAN: Is he allowed to throw a line from his
cabin?
MR. FITZGERALD: He went to get a written transcript and
it cost him $50.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I mentioned that.
Stumpage fees for sawmill operators, a 50 per cent increase.
Sock it to our sawmill operators here in the Province. Commercial farmers, an
increase; non-commercial farmers, a huge increase; veterinary fees, annual
rental fees, quarry... Sent someone up there and destroyed the LaManche gravel
pit up there - they gave some permits up there - and it cost a double increase
up there to violate and destroy the environment.
If you want to get a marriage certificate now, if you want to
get married, it costs you. If you want to get divorced, it costs you a lot more.
AN HON. MEMBER: How much is a marriage certificate?
MR. SULLIVAN: Marriage used to be nothing; now it is $20.
To get divorced used to be practically nothing. Now it costs you, depending on
what you have. It costs you at least half of that. It is still a lot cheaper to
get married than it is to get divorced. I am sure they will soon have a fee on
that; you will have to get a certificate now on that, too, in addition to fees.
It says a search goes from $4 to $20 - in brackets behind
search, three years. Does that mean you spend three years searching, or is it a
three-year search? From $4 to $20, can you imagine, five times, a 500 per cent
increase in a three-year search.
To register a snowmobile is $20 now, a 400 per cent increase.
MR. J. BYRNE: No tax increases, though.
MR. SULLIVAN: No tax increases, no, not at all.
Environment and Labour, pesticide fees, we could use some of
them, $100 from zero for an operator's licence. An applicator's licence is up to
$50 from zero, a vendor's licence $50 from zero. A certificate of approval for
water and water systems - here is one, I say to my colleague from Cape St.
Francis - a certificate of approval for water and waste water systems, based on
the capital cost, starting at $200.
MR. J. BYRNE: There you go.
MR. SULLIVAN: Is he going to start at $200? The bottom
line is about what, $500?
MR. J. BYRNE: Seven.
MR. SULLIVAN: Seven hundred dollars. There is even an
inaccuracy in the budget. It is not even accurate information they put forward.
It is unbelievable; the fee is higher.
We have a whole array of matters here, in increases in fees,
and they are just some of the things that we will certainly be adding to a
little bit later.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, we have a condition made, I
think, with the hon. House Leader to forego the Late Show this evening to
continue with this very important debate on some bills of the day.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to confess something, I am
afraid that if the Leader of the Opposition should make the hon. gentleman over
there House Leader that those polls won't be as favourable as they are now.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, the co-operation of this gentleman is
unbelievable. Sure we give leave. Why not?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say
a few words on this bill with respect to the HST.
I remember when the HST bill was discussed in this House of
Assembly, and we said at that time that it was unfair to the low-income families
in this Province. As a matter of fact, the Member for Baie Verte stood in his
place here and had a breakdown of the cost for a family on social assistance,
making $9,000 or $10,000 a year, and he said at that time, when you look at the
increase for electricity, and the different requirements that a family needs
today to live in this Province, it would cost that family over $700 a year,
which is over 10 per cent - almost 10 per cent - of what their income would be.
Now we have this Minister of Finance bringing in an amendment to the bill to
give a tax break to the low income families.
Mr. Speaker, that could have been included back when they
brought in this HST tax, when they combined the taxes last year or the year
before, whenever it was.
Again we see an administration that is bringing in
legislation all of the time, that immediately has to come back in a very short
period of time and make amendments to it after we told them some of the problems
on this side of the House that would happen and sure enough, it comes to pass
again, Mr. Speaker.
Now it talks about taxes, Mr. Speaker, this is an amendment
to the tax, the HST or whatever. This administration - and I am sick and tired
of saying it, Mr. Speaker - standing in this House of Assembly, in my position
and talking about the taxes that this administration are levying on the people
of this Province. The Minister of Finance stood in his place, Mr. Speaker, not
long ago actually since the House opened and bragged about the great job that he
is doing. He talks about - in the past two years - how there were no tax
increases in the budget. But what have we seen? We have seen untold increases in
licences, fees and permits - costs for this Province. We saw some double,
triple, quadruple, Mr. Speaker. We seen some brought in that had no charge
before and are being charged now, Mr. Speaker.
We see the Minister of Finance trying to bring in a tax on
used vehicles, Mr. Speaker, and they are talking about giving a break to the
taxpayer of this Province, the low income families when we know that the low
income families, all the vehicles that they can buy, Mr. Speaker, are used
vehicles. They do everything they can to get a break and we are talking about
this administration now trying to bring in a tax on used vehicles, Mr. Speaker,
to pay taxes on money they did not spend. Hard earned money, Mr. Speaker. Hard
earned money that these people - call it the working poor, Mr. Speaker, and this
administration now is trying to basically rip them off again, to cause them to
pay taxes on something they did not spend money on, Mr. Speaker. It is downright
ludicrous. It is unfair, it is unjust, it is morally wrong. I have said this
hundreds of times by now, Mr. Speaker.
Also the Premier, in the last election talked about hope. It
was only recently he talked about reducing the income tax but not this year, not
next year but maybe a couple of years down the road, Mr. Speaker, reduce the
income tax that people are paying in this Province. Another hope, Mr. Speaker. I
think I remember something that Sir Winston Churchill said - now I can't quote
him directly but it is something like this: beware of the individual who breeds
false hopes, soon swept away. The Premier of this Province, in the last
election, built up the hopes of everybody in this Province but they have not
delivered. They have not delivered by any stretch of the imagination. So again:
beware of the individual who breeds false hopes, soon to be swept away. Sure
enough, they were soon swept away and the people of this Province realize what
they have done.
Now the Premier today was up talking about leading this group
over here into the next election. God help this Province, Mr. Speaker, if that
man does lead this party into the next election. Now the last time around, Mr.
Speaker, I will make no bones about it and I have no problem saying it, in my
district, when I was running and going door to door in the last provincial
election, I was not running against my opponent in the district. I was running
against Mr. Tobin. There is no doubt about that. The media had him built up so
much, the national media, that that was who we were opposing. We were not
opposing our opponents in the local districts; it was that individual, Mr.
Speaker. He had the people's hopes built up in this Province and their hopes
were soon swept away.
So we can have the Minister of Finance bring in an amendment
to the HST to give a tax credit for the low income earners but, Mr. Speaker, I
think it is too little too late. The leader of our party, the Leader of the
Opposition here, Mr. Speaker, referred to a number of licence fees being
specific but I don't need to be because in their budget for '95-'96 there were
three pages of licence fees and permit increases. No tax increase. In '97-'98,
whatever, six pages of fees, licence and permit increases. It was a sad day for
this Province, Mr. Speaker, when that administration was elected over there. A
sad, sad day and now the minister, the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, got
the gall over there to wave around a poll. Now, I think, Sir Winston Churchill
said about polls too, that dogs got the right idea about poles.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Because - it is no problem, I can answer
that, no problem - because that was on accurate one. That was the right one, Mr.
Speaker, I have no problem with that.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: That was the right poll that was hanging on
his desk. It was a scientific poll that was done and it showed the true feelings
of the people of this Province, an up-to-date poll done on that given day. They
have one that is three or four weeks old. Throw it out, it is no good.
What do you want to know about Churchill?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I can give you a few. Everything in due
coarse, I say to the minister, but I think the most accurate one was the one I
gave earlier, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy: beware of people that
bring false hopes, that carry false hopes, soon to be swept away, and the
Premier did that a year and a half ago.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I do not want to compare the Premier to
certain individuals, Mr. Speaker, I will try to be a man about it and not get
down in the gutter, I will try to stay out of the gutter. The Minister of Mines
and Energy was trying to get me into the gutter, but I will not, I am above
that.
MR. SHELLEY: He is going to talk about sewers today.
MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, good point.
Mr. Speaker, now this administration here - the Minister of
Government Services and Lands last week talking about giving a break to the tax
payers of this Province. The Minister of Government Services and Lands trying to
bring in a new tax on the people of this Province - basically a tax, a service
that was provided by the government - they tried to bring in a fifty dollar fee
last year, then they increased it to $200, but no, Mr. Speaker, that was not
good enough. Now, they are going to require people in this Province who want to
build a new home in rural Newfoundland, which is the worst place - rural
Newfoundland, now they want people to pay $700 to $1,500 extra to build a home
in rural Newfoundland. I would like to know why they are trying to force people
out of rural Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. You go across this Province and we are
trying to get people to stay. We are always making arguments on this side of the
House, what are we going to do for rural Newfoundland? How are we going to help
rural Newfoundland? How are we going to get people to stay in rural
Newfoundland? But on that side of the House what they are trying to do, is to
force - what?
MR. FUREY: Why did you vote against confederation?
MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question, I say to the
Minister of Mines and Energy, I was not born then, I was born in 1951, but I
will tell you one thing, if I was around in 1949 and I was eighteen or nineteen
or twenty years old, I wonder where I would be, if I would be for confederation
or joining the U.S. or stay on our own, I do not know. I have done a lot of
reading on that, more I say, then the Minister of Mines and Energy who is forty
years behind the times.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: No, how much time do you want? How much
time do I have, an hour?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I think that minister should
be made to retract that statement, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, this is a serious issue and the people on that
side of the House may try to ridicule and reduce this to a joke, Mr. Speaker,
but this is a bill that the Minister of Finance is bringing in here and the
people on that side of the House are laughing at it. I think we have to be
serious -
MR. SHELLEY: Shameful.
MR. J. BYRNE: Shameful. The Government House Leader
making a joke of the Minister of Finance.
MR. SHELLEY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of
Education is not in his own chair and he is not allowed to say anything.
MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, now this is a very serious
bill. The Premier should be speaking to this bill. He is the man that brought in
false hopes here soon to be swept away.
Anyway, there are all kinds of points that can be made on
this, Mr. Speaker. As I said earlier and I got rudely distracted by the Minister
of Mines and Energy, $700 to $1,500 the people in rural Newfoundland will have
to pay now to have a building lot assessed, for an on-site inspection for a
septic sewer.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
AN HON. MEMBER: That has nothing to do with it.
MR. J. BYRNE: This is taxes, we are talking taxes, aren't
we?
I am telling you it is too much, too little, too late, I say
to the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, too little, too late. If they had
listened to us when they brought in the HST bill a year or two ago, this would
have been addressed at that point in time.
We were saying at that time of the impact it would have on
lower-income earners in this Province, but he said -
MR. TULK: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I am supporting it but I am saying: too
little too late, Mr. Speaker, and yes, it is the right thing to be doing, but if
that government would listen to the arguments that we make on this side of the
House, Mr. Speaker, 99 per cent of the time, always, Mr. Speaker, right on, we
are always right on, they consistently come back to change it, that is the
problem, they will not listen to us, they will not listen to the people of the
Province, Mr. Speaker.
MR. FUREY: Do you have to speak to every Bill?
MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon? Now the minister makes a good point
there you know. It depends on what the bill is I suppose, but I am only up to
page 10 yet.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: No, Mr. Speaker, this is serious, I have a
lot to say on this topic but we have so many other bills to get through,
important legislation that the Government House Leader wants to put through and
the acting Opposition House Leader here, Mr. Speaker, asked me to say a few
words on this. I think I have said enough on this bill so we are going -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I wish he would bring out the Pickle Book
again. I wish he would, Mr. Speaker, because I can tell you, I can counteract
that any day of the week with respect to the jokes he makes about that situation
there a number of years ago where, the previous administration, the previous,
previous, where the PC Government, Mr. Speaker, created 300 jobs for two years
and all we have seen this administration do, is to cut jobs since they have been
in and they have the gall to question that. I will tell you how I will describe
it, okay?
I was not around at the time, Mr. Speaker, by the way; the
only individual in this House now, who was involved with the Sprung Greenhouse
is sitting on the other side of the House, I say, he is sitting on the other
side of the House -
MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. I can tell you that, Mr. Speaker, no
one here on this side, but I agree, we have to try new things. We have to try
new things I say to the minister, we have to try new things but, the magnitude
is what we have to look at. It may not have been too bad maybe with just one or
two, but the thing is, we created 300 jobs for two years. Now we see in this
Administration, Mr. Speaker, created no jobs, none, zilch, boom, none, gone,
just like that, no jobs. We have seen them let people go right, left and centre
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I am glad you said that, not bad is it,
but we have $40 million for Trans City with no jobs from that administration,
$40 million. We had $10 million, Mr. Speaker, trying to privatize Newfoundland
Hydro, not a job created, now we are up to $50 million, Mr. Speaker, that is
Newfoundland Hydro. Murray Premises could cost another $17 million probably,
over the length of the time, soon to come, now we are up to $67 million, not a
job created, Mr. Speaker, not a job, and they have the gall to talk about $20
million and we created 300 jobs for two years. That is only a start.
Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Twillingate - Fogo, makes
a comment, who is serious about what? I do not know what he is talking about.
Here is our acting House Leader telling me we have to continue, Mr. Speaker.
The HST is a tax that was brought in here. There was a lot of
opposition to it I must say. We brought up many concerns in the House of
Assembly at the time and the people in the Province. Basically, all they did,
Mr. Speaker, was to combine the GST and the PST and call it the HST. That is
what this administration did, Mr. Speaker, and by the way, I think there were
only three provinces that did it, three Liberal administrations, that brought in
the HST, and they were three Liberal provinces. Basically all they were doing
was trying to get the Prime Minister out of trouble before the last election.
That is all they were doing, trying to get the Prime Minister of Canada, who
made a promise they would a