British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, March 2, 2004

h0302pm-04

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

5th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, March 2, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 4 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 5TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...............................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Deputy Premier and Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................ Hon. Christy Clark Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ................................................................................................ Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of State for Immigration and Multicultural Services...................................................................................... Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Women's and Seniors' Services................................................................................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Tom Christensen Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of State for Forestry Operations.................................................................................................................................. Hon. Roger Harris Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services ....................................................................................................Hon. Susan Brice Minister of Human Resources........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................. Hon.

Joyce Murray Minister of Provincial Revenue.................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Minister of Small Business and Economic Development ...............................................................................................................Hon. John Les Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ....................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Resort Development............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................... Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)..........................................

Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (L)..................................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Hon. Susan (L)...................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) ................................................. Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) .............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon.

Gulzar S. (L)............................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon.

Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Greg (L) ............................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Hon. Roger (L) ................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon.

Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ..................................................................................... Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)..............................................................

Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L)............................................................. New Westminster Nebbeling, Ted (L)..................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind.

L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon.

Geoff (L) ........................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Judith (L)....................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................

Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) .............................................. West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Lynn (L).................................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon.

John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................ Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley........................................................................................... Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville..............................................................................Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale .................................................... Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North .........................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ...................................................................Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South............................................................................. Hon. Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena .......................................................................................Hon. Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................... Hon. Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock.......................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, March 2, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 8941 Toni Onley Hon. G.

Campbell Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 8941 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 8941 Multicultural Helping House and mentoring program P. Wong Charitable status of hunting and angling organizations B. Bennett Government initiatives and economic development in Burnaby J.

Nuraney Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 8942 B.C. Rail privatization process and police investigation J. Kwan Hon. R. Coleman Hon. G. Collins Police investigation of government officials J. MacPhail Hon. G. Collins Lillooet LRMP review D. Chutter Hon. G. Abbott Sale of fast ferries M. Hunter Hon. K.

Falcon Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................... 8946 Public Service Benefit Plan Act, report for year ending March 31, 2003 Hon. J. Murray Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 8946 Estimates: Ministry of Health Services (continued) B. Locke Hon. C. Hansen J.

Kwan Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 8968 Estimates: Ministry of Finance Hon. G. Collins B. Kerr A. van Iersel J. MacPhail

8941 TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Tributes TONI ONLEY Hon. G. Campbell: Yesterday I know we were all saddened to learn of the loss of Toni Onley, who died engaging in one of the great loves of his life, actually — flying. Toni was a true and exceptional talent. He took the watercolour art form to new heights and new levels in expressing not just the natural beauty of our sur- roundings but the connection between people and their environment. He helped us see our province and its landscapes, in all their purity and shapes and light and shadows, with fresh eyes.

Toni first came to B.C. in 1955 and eventually set- tled in Vancouver. It was here in B.C. that he acquired his passion for flying and where he travelled all over the province to view and to paint our landscapes. He was honoured with the Order of Canada in 1999. As always in these times of loss, our thoughts and prayers go out to the fam ily, including his two chil- dren, Lynn and James. We have all been enriched by Toni Onley's talents, and today we'd like to say thank you to his family for sharing him with us.

On behalf of the Legislature, I would hope that we can send our condolences and our prayers and thoughts to the fam- ily. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. [1405] Introductions by Members W. Cobb: It's my pleasure today to introduce some very hard-working, progressive mayors from through- out B.C. They are the regional co-chairs for the Council of Resource Communities. With us today are Mayor Gerry Furney from Port McNeill; Mayor Herb Pond from Prince Rupert; Mayor Colin Kinsley from Prince George; Mayor Ross Priest from Cranbrook; and their executive assistant, the urban cowboy Bruce Rosen- heart.

Please make them welcome. Hon. J. van Dongen: On behalf of my colleague the member for Abbotsford–Mount Lehman, I am pleased to introduce 52 grade 5 students visiting the Legisla- ture today. They're accompanied by a number of par- ents and their teachers, Ms. J. Lander and Ms. Patricia Skjolde. I ask the House to please make them all wel- come. H. Bloy: It is my honour to introduce a friend to- day. I met him in the business world a number of years ago, and a friendship developed. He's come here today to celebrate his birthday. He's a retired chartered ac- countant.

Would the House please make Bruce May- bank welcome. Hon. R. Neufeld: It's again my pleasure today to introduce some people from my constituency, Fort St. John — three lovely young ladies that are advancing their education down here in Victoria: my daughter Kathryn Currie and her friends, Lexie Kosick and Harmony Hubley. Would the House please make them welcome. B. Belsey: I would like to point out that the now- famous north coast seafood dinner is being prepared this evening. We have four of the guests — the cooks — that have joined us in the gallery.

I would like to introduce Judy Fraser, Vince Aramari, Debbie Tiapolis and Steve Smith — the cooks. So the louder we clap, probably the warmer it will be tonight. W. McMahon: I am pleased to introduce to the House the 2004 legislative interns with the government caucus. They include Lesley Clayton and Joanna Ellis from UVic; Chris Ferronato, Nathan McDonald and P a u l R u s h t o n f r o m S F U ; T a r a S h i r l e y f r o m U B C ; a n d Regan Garbutt from UNBC. We look forward to shar- ing this unique and exciting experience with them. I ask you to join me in making them very welcome. L.

Mayencourt: Joining us in the gallery today are two young women that I would like to introduce. The first is Alison Leontaridis, who is my legislative assis- tant and that for the member adjacent to me. She is joined here by her sister Jacquelyn Neary, who is a student in Vancouver. Would the House please make them both welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) MULTICULTURAL HELPING HOUSE AND MENTORING PROGRAM P. Wong: The Multicultural Helping House Society is an incredible group in my riding that is dedicated to improving the lives of new immigrants in B.C. They have programs and services aimed at helping new residents fit into the social, economic and cultural fab- ric of our province through language assistance, train- ing and employment counselling. Recently the group was granted startup funding from the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services to launch the Bamboo Network men- toring program.

This initiative pairs B.C. mentors, in a wide range of professions, with new immigrants. New residents can learn about certification and qualifications required for employment and workplace culture, and can better understand the many other features unique to Canadian and British Columbia business. Over 50 immigrant engineers have applied for this mentorship program, and 16 have now been paired with the nine mentors from B.C. Hydro. During each month, between a mentor and a protégé…. There must be at least two interactions or meetings over a period of six months.

8942 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 [1410] I would like to congratulate the staff and volunteers at the Multicultural Helping House for their vision and dedication and extend my appreciation to the volun- teer mentors at B.C. Hydro who have committed their time and expertise. The Bamboo Network in particular is a wonderful opportunity to showcase the compas- sion and commitment of British Columbians, while providing unique opportunities for job shadowing and knowledge sharing. I wish to see this program ex- tended to other businesses and Crown corporations.

This will strengthen the social and economic aspects of British Columbia, and immigrants will have opportuni- ties to use their considerable skills and contribute to our province. CHARITABLE STATUS OF HUNTING AND ANGLING ORGANIZATIONS B. Bennett: Yet another new band of environmen- talists, the Charity Action Team, just announced that they don't believe hunting and fishing groups should be charities. Apparently, some environmental groups such as the Friends of Clayoquot Sound and Fur-Bearer Defenders have had their charitable status revoked because they are too political.

This group is allegedly scandalized by the fact that blue-collar organizations such as the B.C. Wildlife Federation, Ducks Unlimited and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation have charita- ble status while they do not. Let me explain today, on behalf of the hunters and anglers of B.C., why they do deserve charitable status. The B.C. Wildlife Federation, the B.C. Conservation Foundation, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Ducks Unlimited raise millions of dollars every year for conservation projects ar ound the province. Hunters and anglers put their money where their mouth is for charitable purposes.

They don't use their donations to blackmail forest companies, to attend protests around the world or to hurt forest workers and their families. Hunters and anglers are ofte n the only ones who vol- unteer to assist wildlife during severe winters and dis- ease cycles and to help with labour-intensive habitat restoration projects. There's also the provincial government's own habi- tat conservation trust fund, which injects $5 million annually into conservation projects around the prov- ince.

The HCTF raises its $5 million annually not from donations paid by preservati onists but from hunters, anglers, trappers and guide-outfitters who voluntarily fund the HCTF through their licence and tag fees. This so-called Charity Action Team is promoting the fabrication that hunters and anglers are not conser- vationists, even though Albert Schweitzer and many other conservationists have said for years that remov- ing excess animals from burgeoning wildlife popula- tions is an essential component of successful wildlife management.

Let us here today applaud the hunting and angling groups in British Columbia for their apolitical charita- ble efforts to improve our natural environment. GOVERNMENT INITIATIVES AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN BURNABY J. Nuraney: Two and a half years ago our Premier shared his vision of how he would like to see our prov- ince return to the days of prosperity and bring itself to speed with the modern age of technology. He laid out his plans and worked on initiatives like the Premier's Technology Council, the B.C. Progress Board, the pro- vincial congress, openness in government and the process of inclusiveness.

Hi s promise of fiscal respon- sibility was evidenced by the balanced budget intro- duced to this House on February 17. To resurrect our province from the depths of despondency to that of buoyancy took hard work, cooperation and good sense. Our measures are beginning to pay off. We are to- day leading in job growth, volume of new investment and consumer confidence. This feeling of optimism is throughout our province and also permeates my riding of Burnaby-Willingdon. Housing starts and the hous- ing market in my area are seeing unprecedented activ- ity.

Metrotown, the largest shopping centre in B.C. and the second largest in Canada, has entered into a second phase of redevelopment, investing over $80 million. This will create 50,000 square feet more retail space with great entrepreneurial and job opportunities. Electronic Arts, a world leader in the entertainment field, just announced today that they will expand their facility to virtually double their present state by build- ing another 172,000 square feet and creating almost 2,000 new jobs. BCIT, a very progressive institute of higher learn- ing, continues to expand.

Th ey are laying the founda- tion for excellence in applied science. A $65 million facility is being built for aerospace and aviation pro- grams. This facility will be operated with the coopera- tion of Embry-Riddle, the world's largest university specializing in aviation and aerospace. [1415] These are some of the acti vities taking place in our province as a result of our government's sound poli- cies. Confidence has returned to our province, and I can assure you that the best is yet to come. Mr. Speaker: That concludes member statements. Oral Questions B.C.

RAIL PRIVATIZATION PROCESS AND POLICE INVESTIGATION J. Kwan: Here's what we know from the release of a

summary of the search warrants. In the course of a proceeds-of-crime and corruption investigation involv- ing the Minister of Finance' s top political aide, David Basi, the RCMP uncovered a conspiracy involving Mr. Basi; the ministerial assistan t to the Minister of Trans- portation, Bob Virk; and well-known Liberal insider and lobbyist Erik Bornman. That conspiracy offered personal benefit in return for inside access to informa- tion related to the privatization of B.C. Rail.

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8943 Soon after the raids were executed, the Solicitor General assured the public that the integrity of the B.C. Rail deal was in no way compromised. How can he possibly stand by that statement today? Hon. R. Coleman: I am disappointed that the mem- ber, who would have read the

summary of the warrants today, chooses to use the names of people when the warrants actually only refer to "Official 1," "Official 2" and "L 1." They do not refer to any names. The fact of the matter is that I know the B.C. Rail deal was processed proper ly through the executive council of this government, and I have all the confi- dence in the world that deal was done properly. Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question. J. Kwan: The fact is that today's stunning revela- tions go to the heart of the integrity of this government. The fairness report proves nothing.

The police had the fairness report and still so ught a warrant and raided the Legislature. Clearly, there is much more to this story than the whitewash reports tell us. Indeed, the report itself speaks of leaks and poten- tial competitive advantage. We've raised that in this House before. The former minister wouldn't answer them then. Perhaps the new Mi nister of Transportation has the courage to tell this House: what was the source of those leaks, and what did they contain? Hon. G.

Collins: I think it's fair to say that we're not about to try and go through the allegations that are made by the members opposite and try them on the floor of the House. The judge in the case has deter- mined what information is appropriate to make avail- able to the public. Interjection. Hon. G. Collins: The judge in the case has deter- mined what's appropriate to make available to the pub- lic. Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to note…. If you read the

summary carefully, you will note that the individuals referred to…. Particularly "L 1" has been publicly speculated and has in fact, I think, spo- ken to the media, and has been identified as some- body supporting one of the unsuccessful proponents in the B.C. Rail transaction. There is no suggestion whatsoever nor has there been over the last couple of months…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G.

Collins: There has been no allegation or suggestion over the last couple of months that in any way did the successful proponent receive any sort of additional information that would compromise the transaction. They won because they had the best pro- posal. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a further supplementary. J. Kwan: The reality is that the fairness report speaks of leaks and potential competitive advantage. What we're seeking is for the government to release what was leaked and what was in that information that raises the issue around competitive advantage.

The deal has been under a cloud from the begin- ning, and now it is the subj ect of a criminal investiga- tion involving top political staff and insiders. Two of the bidders complained before the deal was signed that it was fixed. CP and Omnitrax took their complaints directly to the Premier — long before the police raided this building. The public has the right to know. Will the Premier immediately release those letters? Will he advise this House today which bid on the sale of B.C. Rail David Basi was peddling? [1420] Hon. G.

Collins: I think one can look at the sum- mary that's been presented by the court and determine that the area of concern to the investigators is potential discussions between the officials and the lobbyists — the representative of Omnitrax, one of the unsuccessful proponents. That can be gleaned fairly clearly from the

summary that's been presented here. I think one can do that and deal with what has been publicly discussed already over the last couple of months. It's pretty clear that they were not the success- ful proponent. They did no t win. The successful pro- ponent was CN, and there is no inference in this. There is no allegation that one can glean from the

summary that CN in any way received any beneficial informa- tion. The transaction was done with CN because they had the best proponent. That was a decision of all of cabinet, and government has not been advised that that is anything different. POLICE INVESTIGATION OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS J. MacPhail: Interesting that the Premier won't stand up and answer these qu estions, that he puts up the very person whose office is tainted by this. What we do know is that the fairness report said that there were leaks and that there was allegation of a competitive advantage, and this government wouldn't release it.

We also know that this govern- ment's top political aide to the Minister of Finance is being charged with influence-peddling. David Basi is… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please.

8944 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 J. MacPhail: …being investigated for influence- peddling. Interjections. J. MacPhail: The top…. Oh, the government takes comfort in that. When his office was raided, the Minister of Finance told the public that Mr. Basi was not involved in gov- ernment business, including the B.C. Rail deal. We now know that isn't true. Indeed, according to the police, the alleged corruption in the Finance minister's office is tied directly to the sale of B.C. Rail and other govern- ment business.

This went on right under the nose of the Minister of Finance, and he claims to know nothing. Will he do the right thing today? Instead of just say ing, "Oh, we didn't g ive it to the bid that was in- fluence peddling," will he do the right thing and re- sign? Hon. G. Collins: Mr. Speaker, I think there you've just seen a shameful exhibi tion of allegations on the floor of this House for whic h there's no basis in fact, and the member should be ashamed. She has taken, I think, a five- or six-page document and created a house of cards. The reality is that the investigation is ongoing.

It will continue until it reaches a conclusion. I think it's important for the member to refer to page 5 of the

summary that was printed toda y. It says: "Further re- view of documents seized and further investigation may demonstrate no persons have committed a crimi- nal offence." She should keep t h a t i n m i n d w h e n s h e makes her comments in this House as well as outside. Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a sup- plementary question. J. MacPhail: It was the Solicitor General that stood in this Legislature and said it's not surprising that or- ganized crime has penetrated the Legislature. Did the Minister of Finance berate the Solicitor General for say- ing that?

Absolutely not, because he knows that the Solicitor General had full knowledge of what was in the search warrants when he made that statement. The Solicitor General said that statement with full knowledge of what's in the search warrants, and now the Minister of Finance is trying to pooh-pooh the sum- mary of information based on those warrants. In opposition, that Minister of Finance called for the resignation of countless ministers on matters of much less significance. On a regular basis he did do that.

The Minister of Finance sti ll claims to be ignorant of what was going on in his office with his chief political aide, an aide he personally hired. Mr. Speaker, igno- rance is not a defence. The minister needs to take re- sponsibility for the corruptio n that took place right under his nose. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order, please. Order. Does the member have a question? Please put it. [1425] J. MacPhail: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Liberals' New Era document, page 33, says: "A Gordon Campbell government will serve you and all British Columbians with honour, respect and integ- rity." If the Finance minister ….

The shame of it is that they don't even understand what that means, Mr. Speaker. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: If the Finance minister… Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order, please. J. MacPhail: …believes those words, he has no…. Mr. Speaker: Order. Would the member now please put her question. J. MacPhail: If the Finance minister believes those words, he has no choice but to resign. Will he resign today? Hon. G. Collins: Contrary to the rants and raves of the member and the screeching opposite, there are al- legations that have been made. There is an investiga- tion underway.

The member is aware of that. If she would read the

summary again on page 5, she will see that what was stated two months ago continues to be stated today: "No provincial or federal elected officials or ministers of the Crown are…." Mr. Speaker, it says…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. G. Collins: Mr. Speaker, I think the member should be careful of the allegations that she makes. There is an investigation underway. She should await the results of those investigations. I know her prefer- ence would be that we could execute people on her demand, but that's not likely to happen. Mr. Speaker, page 5 of the

summary, if the member takes the time to read it, states — and I'll read it for her: "No provincial or federal elected officials or ministers of the Crown are targets of the investigation." We continue to run this government… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Will the Leader of the Opposition please come to order. Hon. G. Collins: …with honesty and integrity, which is what we were elected to do. Interjections.

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8945 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. LILLOOET LRMP REVIEW D. Chutter: M y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f S u s - tainable Resource Management. In 2001, on the eve of the election call, the NDP cherry-picked a protected area from within the Lillooet LRMP and imposed it on the local community without consensus and without the support of my constituents. Now Carole James and the NDP have the nerve… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. D.

Chutter: …to falsely suggest that this govern- ment is carrying on backroom deals to allow mining in the South Chilcotin Mountains Park. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. D. Chutter: Can the minister give my constituents, and especially Carole James and the NDP, the real facts about the Lillooet LRMP revi ew that is currently un- derway? Hon. G. Abbott: There is in the NDP, as you know, Mr. Speaker, a very long tradition of revisionist history, and we've seen the latest

chapter of it here today in the Legislature. Really, whether it's the fast ferries or the Lillooet LRMP, the NDP has an affection for revisionist history that I think would make Stalin blush. Carole James certainly may be a new leader for the NDP, but she's certainly following the old tradition of imposing the NDP will on communities in this province. There clearly was no consensus around the 2001 Lillooet LRMP. Communities were not on side. First nations were not on side. You don't have to take my word on that. I've got a couple of sources here, which I'll quickly note.

First, a letter from Chris O'Connor, the mayor of Lytton, who says: "NDP leader Carole James's suggestion that communities and stakeholders came to a consensus regarding the Lillooet LRMP and the crea- tion of the South Chilcotin protected area is a complete slap in the face and a betrayal of our communities." Further, even closer to home, I have a quote here from the former MLA for Yale-Lillooet and former NDP cabinet minister, Harry Lali, back in 2001. Mr. Lali says: "There's absolutely no reason for this decision to have been made now. There was no consensus at the LRMP table.

There was no consensus in cabinet, and there was no consensus in the cabinet committee that reviewed it. The Premier" — and the reference is to Mr. Dosanjh — "made the decision himself in a desperate attempt to gain green votes in urban B.C. at the ex- pense of rural B.C. He buckled under…." Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. [1430] SALE OF FAST FERRIES M. Hunter: Somewhere in his response, the minis- ter mentioned fast ferries. How prescient, Mr. Speaker, because that's what I want to ask the Minis- ter of Transportation.

The B.C. shipyard workers un- ion is starting to complain about the resale again of these vessels that disgraced the waterfront of Nanaimo for so many months. I want to ask the Min- ister of Transportation to a ssure this House that better offers for the sale of those ferries were not over- looked. Hon. K. Falcon: Thank you very much, member. It will be no surprise in this House that taxpayers took a $460 million bath on those fast ferries. We had to spend $10 million leaving them sitting in the harbour while we tried to sell them.

You know, the frustrating part about this is that there were actually two offers — two offers — that came to the previous government with relation to the fast ferries. In 1999 an offer of $210 mil- lion was made to those members. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order! Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Mr. Minister, order, please. To all members: we will continue with question period when we have order in this chamber. Hon. K. Falcon: I was trying to say that the previ- ous NDP government had reje cted two potential offers for those fast ferries.

In 1999 an offer of $210 million was rejected by those members over there. In early 2001 the member for Vancouver-Hastings actually re- jected an $88 million offer — an $88 million offer that could have helped recoup some of the costs. We found ourselves in a position where for three years we tried to sell these boats around the world, and all we were able to get after three years… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. K. Falcon: …of flogging these boats around the world was $19 million. That is the loss that British Columbians have to take because of those people sit- ting across the way. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. [End of question period.]

8946 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 Tabling Documents Hon. J. Murray: I wish to table a report pursuant to the Public Service Benefit Pl

an Act for the year ended March 31, 2003. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call Committee of Supply in this chamber as well as Committee A. [1435] Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:36 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH SERVICES (continued) On vote 25: ministry operations, $10,404,260,000 (continued). B. Locke: One of the challenges we face in Surrey is significant growth. In fact , our community is growing by approximately 12,000 to 15,000 people a year. That's equivalent to adding a wh ole new town every single year.

Can the minister tell me how the medical system is planning to address the significant growth? Hon. C. Hansen: In fact, if you go back a couple of years under the previous government, they had a very ad hoc system of allocating funding to the various health authorities around th e province. It was particu- larly unfair to those health authorities that were ex- periencing very rapid growth, because it was locked into a base budget that…. Really, nobody that I have ever talked to has been able to explain the basis for those global budgets that were put in place in those days.

Certainly, that process did not recognize the very rapid growth rates in some parts of the province. What we did upon forming government in 2001 was bring in what is referred to as a population needs– b a s e d f o r m u l a . O n c e w e h a v e d e t e r m i n e d w h a t t h e allocation is for the budget for our regional health pro- grams in the province, that is divided up in a way that ensures fairness throughout the province. It's not just a case of taking the number of residents of a health au- thority and dividing it up on a per-capita basis.

We actually factor in the various cost drivers that will drive up the cost of a health care system in any particular region. We factor in demographics; we factor in rate of population growth. For example, we factor in the number of seniors, because we know that seniors are higher consumers of health care than younger popula- tions. We also factor in, for example, the number of residents of a particular region who have to access care in a different health authority.

In the case of the Fraser health authority, where the member is from, they actu ally have the highest per- centage of care for residents of that health authority being delivered in other health authorities. In the case of the Fraser health authorit y, it's typically because a lot of people work in Vancouver coastal and access their doctor's and specialist's care and other health care services in the Vancouver coastal region.

All of those things get taken into consid eration, but the good thing about this model is that as populations grow, we can actually be flexible and ensu re that they get a propor- tionately larger share of the al location to reflect the fact that their population is growing rapidly. B. Locke: Surrey Memorial Hospital is noted to be the busiest ER in British Columbia and the second busiest in the entire country. Can the minister confirm that the ER at Surrey will be expanded to meet the growing needs in our community? If there's a time frame, I'd be interested in knowing that as well. [1440] Hon. C.

Hansen: Again, I think we almost have to go back and look at a bit of a historical perspective on this. Under the previous government, they actually had two separate budgets. One was an operating budget for the health authorities, and the other was the capital budget. I heard frequent complaints before the election from health administrators in the province who really didn't feel the ministry was being sensitive to local needs when it came to what priorities should be given to various capital projects.

One of the things we have done is combine the capital budgets with the operating budgets and allow the health authorities their own flexibility to choose their priorities. What we're saying to them is that they have to, within their financial means and their pro- jected budgets, be able to manage their debt-servicing costs. As there is a need identified — for example, it may well be a future expansion of the emergency rooms at Surrey Memorial Hospital….

If the health authority was to determine that that need is there, then they have the flexibility within their operations and their budgets to put whatever priority they think is most appropriate to those capital needs in the prov- ince. We also have underway, under the direction of the provincial health services au thority, a review of emer- gency services in the province to determine how we can make sure that the needs of residents get met. In the past, I think, too often we have looked at each emergency room as an island unto itself.

What we really need is a coordinated network of care that factors in the ambulance service, wh at capacity there is at a facility at any one point in time, and the other re- sources and access to specialists and things like that, which various hospitals will have. I think we're mov- i n g f r o m a s y s t e m t h a t w a s , f i r s t o f a l l , o n e i n w h i c h capital dollars were not necessarily pinpointing local priorities but also a system that was very fragmented to one that is going to be better coordinated, with flexi-

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8947 bility at the health authority level to meet the needs and priorities of their citizens. B. Locke: One of the difficulties our ER faces is congestion in the wards. That's due to patients not be- ing able to be moved from the ER into the wards. In addition, a lot of the patien ts that probably should have palliative care are not getting that. I'm wondering if there is any way of alleviating that problem so that patients could be moved out of the ER and into pallia- tive care to relieve some of the pressure on the ER. Hon. C.

Hansen: First of all, with regard to the pal- liative care programs, the Fraser health authority has a very good program that it is developing. Clearly, that is a need that is across the province. The Fraser health authority, for example, just opened a new 16-bed hos- pice unit in Burnaby at St. Michael's hospital and has reconfigured the existing Burnaby Hospital palliative unit to a regional referral centre for tertiary palliative care. That's 11 beds in that facility.

With regard to the alternate level care bed-days, I guess the Fraser health auth ority actually has the big- gest challenge, but I think what's important is that they're making progress. For each of the last three years they have actually seen the number of acute care beds tied up with patients who should be in some other level of care, which is how we define ALC or alternate level care beds…. For each of the last three years we have seen that rate coming down in the Fraser health authority.

But when we were elected as gov- ernment, at that point they had over 20 percent of their bed-days being tied up with ALC patients, which is by far the highest in the province . As I say, in each of the subsequent years we have seen them make some pro- gress to getting the number of ALC bed-days down to more appropriate levels. B. Locke: One of the other challenges that the ER faces is people going to the ER that may be able to get help elsewhere.

I wonder if there's any consideration of some kind of education to the public to help them redi- rect their care needs to maybe their own GP or a clinic or something like that so th at they're not plugging up the ER. [1445] Hon. C. Hansen: There are a couple of things on that particular subject area. First of all, we are expanding the use of the NurseLine and the public awareness of the NurseLine. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, in the last year alone the use of the B.C. NurseLine has gone up by over 50 percent. This is, I think, an important resource for the public.

What it does is allow the public access to information to help them make their medical decisions, short of going to the emergency rooms. It's been a huge benefit in alleviating pressure from the emergency rooms, and we will continue to build upon that and build public awareness of that. Also, we are working thro ugh some of the primary care initiatives to try to encourage models that extend the hours of operation of access to GPs throughout the province. We have a $20 million fund that has been put in place to try to enhance primary care.

We have a group which is known as the general practice services committee, which is looking at some of those options. There's good cooperation among the doctors and gov- ernment and the health author ities to try to make sure that there are more options for residents of the prov- ince outside of the emergency rooms. B. Locke: It seems to me that general practitioners are the unsung heroes of the medical system. Cer- tainly, I know my own doct or is my own hero. Hav- ing a family doctor can save the system by delivering solid, personalized care right in the doctor's office.

While I appreciate the need for walk-in clinics, it con- cerns me that walk-in clinic doctors generally receive equal or greater remunerati on than GPs do. Can the minister comment on this issue and if there has been any discussion or plans for any discussion with the BCMA with regard to changing the way these two different doctors are paid? Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, I mentioned earlier the GP services committee and that $20 million allocation.

They are looking for ways to encourage full-service family practice using that fund, specifically, but also how to encourage more graduating doctors to go into full-service family practice. That is certainly a focus of the primary care transition projects across the province. Also, we've had good discussions with the B.C. Medi- cal Association around how to encourage full-service family practice.

There is a report that was done re- c e n t l y b y t h e B C M A a r o und primary care reform, which has been very helpfu l and certainly a document that the ministry is looking at in terms of how we can use it and move forward on this. Also, with regard to the expansion of the medica l school in B.C., we are developing a model that will in fact encourage physi- cians to look at community care. [1450] Just one other thing to point out.

B.C. has one of the best population-to-physician ratios, generally speaking, but in particular with regard to rural com- munities in the province where we in fact have the lowest number of patients per physician of any prov- ince in Canada. I think it shows that we're on the right track. Also, if you look at the recommended ratio of the number of GPs to population, we have a better ratio than most other provinces in Canada, and we are below what the Canadian Medical Association has indicated as being the prefer red ratio for Canada as a whole. B.

Locke: Surrey has witnessed some new building of long-term care facilities. However, we've also seen a couple of them closed. One is Shirley Dean, and an- other one was a private facility. Can the minister explain why these facilities are closing and if there are an y additional new long-term care facilities in the works for Surrey?

8948 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, we undertook an in- ventory of long-term care facilities around the province as a government — I believe it was done through B.C. Buildings Corporation, if my memory is right — to do an audit or an assessment of existing facilities in terms of which ones had outlived their usefulness, which ones were too old to meet needs, which ones were lack- ing in just design to meet the needs of residents.

Based on that review, there are some facilities that are being phased out, mostly because they no longer meet the needs in that particular community. In exchange, there's a whol e bunch of new facilities that are being developed. For example, in Chilliwack there are 40 new assisted-living facilities at the Waverly project and new residential care beds being opened at McIntosh. There are new assisted-living supplements at Logan Manor in Agassiz.

If you look at Surrey in particular, which I know the member is interested in, there are 60 new residential care beds opened at Guild- ford Seniors, 60 new residential care beds opened at Morgan Place and 84 independent living spaces opened since January 2001 in Surrey. In White Rock — new beds opening at Evergreen Cottages. Let me see if I can find some other examples here — new assisted- living developments in Chilliwack and Delta and new assisted-living spaces at Hawthorne lodge in Port Co- quitlam.

There are lots of examples , and I know that the Fra- ser health authority has lots more in the planning stages now to make sure that those needs get met. Yes, there are some facilities that are being phased out be- cause they no longer meet needs. In place, we're put- ting in new places that ar e modern. They are designed for a modern style of care, which really maximizes the independence of seniors when that's appropriate and makes sure that they get the health care services they need depending on their pa rticular and individual needs. B.

Locke: Some people are concerned that changes to privatized services at Surrey Memorial will compromise patient care. Can the minister tell me what the experi- ences of other jurisdictions are with respect to privatized security, food services, cleaning and laundry? Hon. C. Hansen: A s w e h a v e p u r s u e d o p t i o n s f o r getting a more cost-effective delivery of services in the health care sector, one of the things that we are abso- lutely committed to is that we will not compromise the quality of services that are needed by patients in the province.

If you start looking at some of the other facilities that have contracted out security services, for exam- ple…. What we've seen as a result of that is we're get- ting more hours of coverage and more comprehensive coverage than we were under the old model. One ex- ample is the contracting-out of housekeeping services at Vancouver General Hospital.

I was talking to a nurse who has worked in Vancouver General Hospital for 15 years, and she told me that in all that period of time, she has never seen the place cleaner than it is today. [1455] We have put in place the kind of guarantees that we require to make sure the standards are not com- promised. Indeed, in many cases we're seeing that these private sector providers are providing an even better service than was in place prior. B. Locke: Many people from Surrey, including my- self, went to St. Mary's Hospital for eye surgeries, espe- cially cataracts.

Can the minister please tell me what plans are in place for Surrey patients requiring eye surgeries, now that St. Mary's is closing? Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, I just want to say that St. Mary's Hospital has a tremendous and very proud history, and one that I know — in the discussions that I and other officials in the mi nistry have had with the Sisters of Providence, who are the owners of St. Mary's Hospital…. It's one thing that the sisters are very proud of.

As we have been working with them on the moving of some of these services to other facilities, it's certainly a history that we want to make sure is celebrated. I think what is key is no t around the bricks and mor- tar of how health services are delivered, but it's the ser- vices themselves that are important. As we move for- ward, we are making sure that the individual patients who were to have had procedures performed at St. Mary's Hospital during these coming weeks and months get their needs met, and they will get met in other facili- ties.

In the case of eye surgery, some of the services that previously would have been provided at St. Mary's have now been shifted to Burnaby Hospital. There are also s o m e s e r v i c e s t h a t w o u l d g o t o S u r r e y M e m o r i a l , a n d indeed there may be other fa cilities. I think the bottom line is that the needs of the patients are going to get met, because we are expanding the services that are provided in other neighbouring facilities. Just one other thing on that subject of St. Mary's. It is important to point out that of all the patients that came to get care at St.

Mary's over the past year or the most recent year that was completed, only 17 percent of those residents actually lived in New Westminster. What we had was that 83 percent of the patients who c a m e t o S t . M a r y ' s w e r e i n f a c t f r o m o t h e r c i t i e s a n d other municipalities around the Fraser Valley and had to travel to New Westminster to get care. What we're doing now is expanding the services that can be pro- vided in the hospitals that in many cases are closer to where, in fact, the patients actually live.

I'm sure the constituents of the member will be benefiting by the relocation of some of those services to a facility closer to their home. B. Locke: There's still a considerable challenge for people to contact MSP by telephone. I wonder if the minister can tell me and my constituents what the min- istry is doing to help alleviate that problem and that frustration of getting through to MSP by phone. Hon. C. Hansen: This is a subject area where I think all of us in this chamber have received numerous com-

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8949 plaints from our constituents with regard to the time it takes to get something as basic as an application for premium assistance processe d. Clearly, those are all circumstances where people, I think, are entitled to timely service. It has been a problem that has gone on for years, and it's not the fault of those who work in the ministry to try to pump this paper through. [K. Stewart in the chair.] The problem is that we're working on technology that is grossly out of date.

This has been a paper-based system that really has made very few changes from 30 years ago.

As we know, the whole technology of how business is done has changed phenomenally, and we need to make sure we take advantage of some of those new computer technologies. [1500] What we are in the middle of right now is looking at a private sector partner who can bring some of those technology solutions to this file so that in fact we can speed up the time it takes for individuals to get an- swers, speed up the time it takes for applications to be processed and speed up the time just to get a response to a telephone inquiry. Those are all underway now.

It's my understanding that th e process of identifying a private sector partner has now narrowed it down to two companies. I expect that by roughly the end of March or hopefully not later than the end of April, we will have been able to finalize the private sector com- pany that we wish to partner with. I hope that in the very near future, certainly by the end of this year, the public is going to be able to see a considerable change in the amount of time it takes them to get information processed and other informa- tion from what we refer to as the health benefits office of the ministry. Hon. I.

Chong: I ask leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon. I. Chong: Today in the gallery we have visi- tors from St. Andrew's Regional High School, a class of grade 11 students. There are 24 of them, two adults and Mrs. Paul, their teacher. I understand they've had a tour, and they're here to wa tch the session. I am intro- ducing them on behalf of my colleague the Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services, the member for Saanich South, who could not be here to- day. She wanted to ensure that they were indeed wel- comed to this chamber.

I ask the House to please make them welcome. Debate Continued B. Locke: There seems to be some confusion in Sur- rey with regard to elective surgeries and about cancel- lations of elective surgeries. Can the minister confirm the number of elective surgeries that have been can- celled at Surrey Memorial — outside of those that hap- pened during the job action time? How many have been cancelled over the last two and a half years? Hon. C.

Hansen: I do not have at my disposal the exact numbers that the member is looking for, but cer- tainly when we did have the job actions that took place — I guess it would be just under two years ago now or a year and a half ago — that did result in the cancella- tion of thousands of elective surgeries. That really does slow down the system, and it takes a long, long time to ever try to catch up. I would say that even after this point, we probably haven't caught up from the number of surgeries that we lost during that period of time — in certain areas, at least.

We are undergoing a process now, which is being led by the provincial health services authority, to do what is referred to as a surg ical review to try to make sure that patients get access to care based on their indi- vidual priorities. We know that when a patient has been booked for elective surgery, the wait time for that surgery varies depending on the individual circum- stances. We rely on the individual doctors to determine the priority with which their patients should get access to that care. The individual surgeons and other specialists are allocated operating room time or diagnostic time.

They have to determine which of their patients should be getting the priority for accessing that in a way that makes sure they meet their need s. This is an area that I think all provinces are wrestl ing with. We're trying to find ways to make sure that we do get appropriate and timely access to elective surgeries, but that is not an exact science. A lot of work is being done on it. I think we're making some progress as a result of the leader- ship from the PHSA. [1505] B. Locke: Operating room availability is also a chal- lenge at SMH. I know there have been some new oper- ating rooms developed there.

I wonder if the minister can outline them and address what's being done to alleviate that concern. Hon. C. Hansen: When it comes to operating room capacity in the Fraser health authority, we recently just opened…. In fact, I guess it was October 20 of just last year that the fifth operating room at Eagle Ridge Hos- pital was put into service. Very soon we expect to be opening a sixth operating room at Eagle Ridge. That is a direct result of shifting some of the services that used to be provided at St.

Mary's Hospital, freeing up some of those financial resources to make sure we can actu- ally meet the needs of patients in the communities where they live. Specifically with regard to Surrey Memorial Hospi- tal, which I know the member is interested in, I don't have any information at my fingertips with regard to the capacity in that emerge ncy room. I do know that there was a very exciting project that was opened re-

8950 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 cently with Surrey Memorial with regard to the com- puter technology that was being brought into the oper- ating rooms. It was absolute state of the art. I know that across Canada, others are looking at that technology as a model. I think it's certainly part of what the future operating room is going to look like, but that future operating room is here and now and is being used in Surrey Memorial Hospital. B. Locke: This is my last question. There is no doubt that anaesthesiologists are highly trained, highly skilled doctors and in short supply.

Can the m i n i s t e r t e l l m e w h a t i s b e i n g d o n e t o a t t r a c t a n d train more? Hon. C. Hansen: There is a fair amount underway to recognize that there is a shortage of anaesthetists certainly across Canada and, I believe, really through- out North America. That is a challenge we're facing. We recognized those pressures in the last increases that were provided as part of the $392 million increase we put in place for physician services in the province. The anaesthetists actually got an above-average percentage increase in their fee-for-service payments.

In fact, it went up by 24 percent as a result of that last round of increases for doctors. When it comes to the service agreements — and these are for the anaesthetists in the province that would not be working on fee-for-service but on a service agreement — we now have a comparable increase, which is also somewhere in the range of about a 24 per- cent increase over what was there before, to bring them up to a current level of ab out $235,000 to $294,000. That is the range for those particular individuals.

Certainly, the UBC medical school is recognizing the need for educating more anaesthetists as we go f o r w a r d . T h e y a r e i n f a c t d e v e l o p i n g p r o g r a m s t o e n - courage more medical students to go into anaesthesiol- ogy as a career. I think on a bunch of fronts we're trying to meet those needs. While we are facing shortages conti- nentwide, I think we are certainly paying our anaesthe- tists well, and that alone w ill help make sure the needs get met. The Chair: We're just going to have a very short five-minute recess, so we'll be resuming in five min- utes.

The committee recessed from 3:10 p.m. to 3:12 p.m. [K. Stewart in the chair.] On vote 25 (continued). J. Kwan: Just prior to the break, I was canvassing with the minister about the 5,000 new beds commit- ment. I was asking him for the breakdown of those 5,000 beds. How many new beds have been created and under what categories? Perhaps the minister can provide that information now. Hon. C. Hansen: At this point I don't have the kind of precise numbers that I th ink the member is looking for.

What I want to share with her are some things that actually show that we are heading into the right direc- tion and that we're confident we're going to be able to achieve the numbers we have targeted. As we were discussing this morning, when it comes to the supportive housing, we need to be able to de- termine which ones actually have a care component that would fit into the defi nitions we discussed this morning. [1515] Actually, I was trying to pull out the numbers. I remember seeing this chart recently, and it actually gave the summaries.

Realizing that the way it is for- matted, what I have in front of me doesn't allow me to pull those numbers out quickly, but there is…. I know I can tell you the numbers that are coming out of the health authorities, for exam ple, around as sisted-living projects. But as I mentioned this morning, it is not just the health authorities that are part of meeting this ob- jective. It is B.C. Housing that's part of that, and we've also got all kinds of other community not-for-profit and private initiatives in th e province that aren't di- rectly connected to a health authority initiative.

The numbers that I think may give the member some comfort are a survey that's done by CMHC to give…. The reason I point to this one is that it gives an arm's-length indicator — not our data, but in fact CMHC's data — around the net increase of beds. What they point to in…. From year 2001 to 2003 there has been a net increase of 1,046 under the title of care facili- ties. Under the subject area of congregate residences, which includes both congregate housing and assisted living, the net increase from 2001 to 2003 is 3,149.

Now, I'm the first one to admit that we can't count all of that congregate housing, because not all of them will have a care component to them. I apologize that I don't have that tally ready at my fingertips here. I know we did talk about this before, this morning, and I thought I would have that specific tally. But those numbers, I think, give at least some independent reas- surance, aside from what we have internally, that indi- cate that, in fact, CMHC recognizes there is a net in- crease.

If you project some of the new projects that are coming on stream, we are quite confident that we are going to be reaching those targets. J. Kwan: I could appreciate the minister may not have the information readily at this moment. Estimates debate for health will continue on, I'm sure, for a few days if not longer than that. At some point — perhaps tomorrow, if we go back to health estimates — if the minister can bring that information forward, that would be much appreciated. I can then build my ques- tions based on what I have received from the minister with that.

I'll set that aside for one moment in terms of those numbers, and I'll wait for the minister's informa- tion tomorrow. Let me go back to the

definitions question, because I want to make sure we're going to be comparing ap-

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8951 p l e s t o a p p l e s i n t e r m s o f t h e i n c r e a s e i n b e d s w e ' r e talking about. The minister earlier today has basically redefined long-term care and intermediate care, sug- gesting that the three conditions that must be met will fit into that definition. It being purpose-built, having the right design for providing health services, and that the people living in those units would have 24-hour access to health care — those were the three conditions set.

If the minister can advise me, then, how that defini- tion the minister is now using has changed from the previous definition of intermediate care — level 1, level 2, level 3 — as well as long-term and extended care. I just want to become completely clear so that we know what we're talking about. Hon. C. Hansen: I think, first of all, if the member goes back and checks the record from this morning…. When she set out those three conditions of the defini- tion…. I did come back and clarify that when we talk about….

Yes, we are talking about a facility that has a health care component to it within the scope of what we used to know as intermediate or long-term care and that, secondly, this be purpose-built housing. We're not counting the family home just because a community care nurse goes in and visits from time to time. [1520] The third point, I think, is the one that's important, because the clarification that I gave after she set out those earlier today was that we will determine the de- gree to which there needs to be health care coverage based on the needs of the patient.

We're not saying there's going to be a registered nurse sitting outside the patient's door 24 hours a day. We are saying that based on the individual's assessmen t, there would be access to that care. I did make that clarification earlier today. I do have the definition that comes out of the home and community care policy manual setting out the cri- teria for the different levels of care — IC 1, IC 2, IC 3 — as we discussed this morning. Maybe what I should do is give…. I was going to say it's about nine pages alto- gether. In fact, just on IC 1 alone there are, I think, three pages.

What was just handed to me is a

summary, which might be a little bit better to work from. Definition of IC level 1. Clients are reasonably in- dependent but often need a moderate amount of help with bathing, dressing an d housekeeping. A typical client may be a slow-moving arthritic person who re- quires a walker to mobilize independently or someone needing specific nursing care to help change a surgical dressing or manage a catheter or ostomy apparatus. I can go into more detail if the member wants, or if she wants a copy of all nine pages, I'd be pleased to pro- vide that for her. Intermediate care level 2.

Clients can mobilize but require heavier care or supervision requiring profes- sional support. Clients may require daily supervision with dressings, colostomy, oxygen therapy, etc., rather than on occasion. A typical client may be living with Parkinson's or multiple sclerosis and need more prompting and supervision around transferring related to physical frailty and greater input to maintain hy- giene and have their daily living needs met, such as feeding and dressing. A client with a dementia will need considerable directional assistance and supervi- sion. Intermediate level 3.

There are both behavioral and physical IC 3 clients. Behavioral clients assessed at this level are often coping with significant psychogeriatric issues resulting in severe behavioral problems and requiring high input. These persons usually require facility placement. Clients with severe physical deficits at the IC 3 level require ongoing direction, supervision and assistance with the activities of daily living. I c a n g o o n t o e x t e n d e d c a r e i f … . L e t m e r e a d i n extended care just for the record here as well.

This level of care recognizes persons with a severe chronic dis- ability that have functional deficits requiring 24-hour- a-day care, professional nursing services and ongoing medical supervision. Traditionally, the complexity of care issues has necessitated facility placement for this client. Clients are generally wheelchair dependent and unable to mobilize independently with or without aids and require professional and non-professional care. J. Kwan: Thank you to the minister. Yes, I would appreciate the long version of the

definitions as well as the short version. If the minister can make that avail- able at the end of today's debate for our office, that would be great. I can then look at it after we adjourn from here. [1525] Okay, so on that basis, the

definitions the minister had put on record for levels 1, 2 and 3 and extended care…. Is the government still using those

definitions for assessment and the term inologies associated with it? Or has that changed also? Hon. C. Hansen: This is actually going through a transition now. There are new tools that have been developed. In fact, they're based on a project that was piloted in North Vancouver, which really is becoming a standard not just across B.C. but indeed across Canada as an assessment tool used by community care nurses to assess the needs of an individual who is developing some health or medical dependencies. The terms IC 1, IC 2, IC 3 are still used in much of the industry today, but ther e are new

definitions being developed that are far more refined that I think will ensure consistency across the province in

definitions. Those tools are being used increasingly. Right now we're in a world where some are still using the old model and some are using the new model. If the member is interested, I will also be pleased to provide her with the new

definitions that we're moving towards as well as those old

definitions, which are be- ing phased out. J. Kwan: Y e s , I w o u l d b e i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e n e w

definitions. The reason why, of course, is that I want to compare the old

definitions versus the new

definitions and whether the level of care has changed. If so, in

8952 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 what ways? Then we are actu ally going to be compar- ing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges so that we know what we're talking about — which I know is a bit trying sometimes, particularly in the House. That would be appreciated. For the time being, could the minister just give me a quick

summary of what the new

definitions are and a quick overview of what those

definitions are so that we can carry on debate for the purposes of discussion? Hon. C. Hansen: W h a t I h a v e w i t h m e r i g h t n o w that I could share with her are some examples around what they refer to as complex care groupings, for ex- a m p l e . W e u s e d t o r e f e r t o t h i s g e n e r a l l y s p e a k i n g a s extended care in the past , but because there are…. Maybe I shouldn't try to say it's a direct parallel. I will read you a couple of the new

definitions around com- plex care groupings. Group A is a person who has severe behavioral problems on a continuous basis. The person may or may not be independently mobile.

Assessment indica- tors for this grouping incl ude that the person may en- danger their own life; exhibit destructive, aggressive or violent behaviours; exhibit antisocial behaviours; re- quire a behaviour modification program on a time- limited or highly structured basis; be psychiatrically handicapped with one or more severe behavioral prob- lems which make a person unable to function in a sup- ported housing, assisted-living or group home setting. That would be what we would refer to as group A within that complex care grouping.

Group B is a person who has cognitive impair- ment ranging from moderate to severe but who is socially appropriate. The person may or may not be independently mobile with use of ambulatory aids. Then it lists some of the specific indicators under that group. Under the third group, group C, would be a person who has cognitive impairment ranging from moderate to severe but who is socially inappropriate. The person may or may not be independently mobile with assis- tance. Again, it runs through more detail.

Group D would be a person who is physically de- pendent but cognitively intact with medical needs that require professional nursing and whose condition re- quires a planned program to retain or improve func- tional ability. Again, it goes into a bit more detail. [1530] Group E is a person who is clinically complex — for example, a person who has multiple disabilities and/or medical problems that require professional nursing care or who has complex medical conditions that re- quire monitoring and specialized skilled care. Again, more detail. I think the point is that we are refining this more.

It's not simply a catch-all phrase like "extended care." We are really trying to be more specific to the individ- ual needs of the patient so that they can be placed ap- propriately to get the services they need and also so that these

definitions and the application of them are in fact consistent regardless as to whether you are living in Dawson Creek or whether you are living in down- town Victoria. J. Kwan: What it sounds like to me is that the com- plex care groupings A to E are individuals that require perhaps more assistance. Generally speaking — and I think the minister has stated as well — they're almost an equivalent to what was formerly defined as the ex- tended care. That sort of deals with the extended care piece. What about intermediate care levels 1, 2 and 3? What is the new terminology now being used for these three groups? Hon.

C. Hansen: We were actually just looking at some of the documents, whic h I don't think answer the question the member is aski ng. The one document I do have here is that one around the

definitions, the com- plex care groupings. I will have to undertake to get the information that she is looking for regarding the other levels of care in terms of assisted living, but I don't have that right at my fingertips. I apologize. J. Kwan: If we could get that information, is it rea- sonable to expect it by the end of today? Interjection. J. Kwan: It is reasonable. Then we can carry on debate, if we go back to health estimates tomorrow, with all the

definitions the minister will pass on to my office. Let me ask the minister th is question: what is the terminology "residential care"? What does that refer to? That's new terminology, as I understand. In fact, as we were debating this, this morning, we received an e-mail from a group that advised us that…. It was ELMS, actually, who were watching the debate. They advised that the term s "intermediate care" and "extended care" have now been dismantled by the gov- ernment.

In fact, there was a memo sent out in Septem- ber at a place called the Overlander Residential Care Hospital, which prohibited th e staff from using either term in writing or in oral communications. The group that had used "residential care" in their terminology had been prohibited from using it. I'm sorry.

The group that used the term "extended care" had been prohibited from using it, and they've now been told they have to use the term "residential care." In fact, there was a memo going out to that effect telling folks that the registration categories for inter- mediate and extended care are no longer valid, that the new terminology is "residential care" and that therefore people were to use that term. Maybe the minister can advise: what is residential care? [1535] Hon. C. Hansen: The first thing I want to point out is probably the

definitions we want to be using going forward. Those are the defi nitions contained in the

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8953 Community Care and Assisted Living Act, which I think probably will help to guide us and give clarity moving forward. In the policy manual there is actually a reference to what residential care services may include. I will just read it to the member.

"Residential care services may be provided in various types of residential care facili- ties, which include intermediate care facilities, private hospitals, multilevel care funded facilities, extended care hospitals or units, and acute care hospital beds designated for long-term care." Then the second gen- eral category would be family care homes. The other general category would be group homes, where resi- dential care services may be provided. Residential care is a much broader term, which I don't think is particularly new. I think it has been around for some time, but it gets used in different as- pects.

I think if you look down the list of the kind of residential care facilities that may provide residential care services, we are going through a change in trying to get some consistency arou nd the terminology that is used. For example, I know that the term "private hospi- tal" is one that is often confused and that we have pri- vate hospitals that are long-term care facilities. Some people think that maybe they provide a broader range of services that we tend to think of from our acute care hospitals. I think we do have some challenges in terms of the kind of

definitions that have been used in the past, but what we're trying to move towards are the

definitions used in the Community Care and Assisted Living Act. As to why a facility would put out a directive around the use of the term "extended care," I'm not aware of that kind of detail. The only thing that can come to my mind is that we are trying to move to more consistent

definitions to be used across the province, and those are the

definitions in the Community Care and As- sisted Living Act. J. Kwan: It appears to me that the directive to change the language stems from government policy changes, as the minister ha d identified himself that they are going through a pr ocess of phasing out the language that was used before — intermediate care levels 1, 2 and 3 and extended care to complex care groups to…. I don't know what levels 1, 2 and 3 are being replaced with. We will get that information when we get it. I think that's wher e it stems from, and that's how people are being told that they should no longer use these terminologies.

Irrespective of terminologies, what is behind the terminologies and how they are defined becomes criti- cal so that we can, again, know that we're talking about apples and apples and oranges and oranges. It seems to me, though, in this instance the information the minis- ter provided around residential care really deals with intermediate care facilities — or sort of a replacement word for intermediate care. Certainly, it doesn't seem to me to replace extended care, because extended care seems to me to fall under the categories of complex care groups.

So that's something to note. [1540] Now, having establishe d the terminology changes — and we'll get more information later today — could the minister advise, using th e

definitions that the min- ister and the ministry now use, how many beds there were in 2001 — the beds that used to be referred to as extended care, intermediate care, levels 1, 2 and 3, etc., which are now referred to as something else? How many beds were there, under this new set of

definitions that the ministry is now using, in 2001? Hon. C. Hansen: What I've got is a slide that is a table that shows the total number of bed-days broken down by the various levels. The best I can do at this stage for the member is to approximate…. This is how those 25,000 beds that we were talking about this morning are broken down. I'm just trying to get a rough estimate. I would say that this particular bar graph…. About 30 percent would be at the IC 2 level. About another 35 percent would be at the IC 3 level, and the remaining 35 percent would be at the extended care level. J.

Kwan: Could the minister also give me the ap- proximate actual numbers of the 25,000? I can work it out — 30, 35, 35. It would just save me the trouble of having to do it. Hon. C. Hansen: I will endeavour to get the num- bers that were used to calcul ate this bar chart. I should also point out that there is actually a very small num- ber of beds — barely makes the chart — in the IC 1 level as of 2001. I think the other thing that's important to point out is that we need to also focus on the patients, not just the beds.

I think what's impo rtant is how we are meet- ing the needs of those indivi dual patients, and that's really what we're talking abou t in this transition. It's not just change and definition for change's sake; it's change that actually can be tter meet the needs of indi- vidual patients, which has the sensitivity towards their needs instead of some of th e classifications and catego- rizations that we have used in the past. J. Kwan: I would agree with the minister. It is about meeting the patients' or th e communities' needs.

What I'm worried about is that as extended care, intermedi- ate care, long-term care homes are being shut down, we are losing those beds, and the replacement may not meet the same levels of need that the community is requiring. A case in point would be Comox, I believe. In the community of Comox extended care beds are in such need that the health authority is utilizing a hotel — I believe it is the Ramada hotel — to provide for services for the people who are in need. It is important to make sure that what is being provided actually meets the needs of the community absolutely.

It's also important to compare the government's commitment to developing 5,000 new extended and intermediate care beds — that those beds are actually

8954 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 being met by the actions of this government not just through the change of terminology but rather the needs associated with what was defined as extended and long-term care beds and replaced with these new beds under new terminology…. But they have to be equal in level of service; they can't be lesser in terms of level of service. Therefore, getting the benchmark of what was in 2001, what we started with, and then comparing it to the future of what new beds are being added would be critical.

Hence, I ask the question of how many beds were there in 2001. [1545] Now, when the minister said 25,000, and he con- firmed that earlier today, that is still the correct number — roughly 25,000 as the base number. Is that 25,000 defined under the new

definitions that the government is utilizing, or is that defined under the old

definitions? Hon. C. Hansen: The commitment that we made to British Columbians is a net increase of 5,000 intermedi- ate and long-term care beds, so what we will measure ourselves against are the defi nitions that were in place for intermediate and long-term care in 2001. It's not a case of saying that we're suddenly going to transfer everything over to these new

definitions. We're going to be held accountable for the commitment that we made based on the

definitions that were in place at the time. We will certainly live up to that. I think one of the things the member said that I do have to take issue with was when she said that the number — I forgot if she used the words "complex care" or "extended care" — o f h i g h - l e v e l c a r e b e d s should at least increase. Th at's not necessarily in the best interests of the communities and the patients that are being served.

We have seen all kinds of cases where individuals were put into what used to be known as extended care before they were ready for that, when they still had some independence that should have been nurtured and supported. They went into a purely and totally dependent enviro nment. What we find in those situations is those individuals will deteriorate quickly to the level of care that they're put into. We are trying to make sure around the province that we have an appropriate level of beds for the varying degrees of dependence and independence of our seniors as they advance in years.

The member referred to the Comox Valley, which is my hometown, and I stay familiar with some of the things happening there. Fo r example, I'll read you these bullets on the Comox Valley: 328 residential care beds as of April of 2002. And 13 assisted-living beds are already occupied. There' s a conversion of 100 in- termediate care beds to 200 complex care beds on one site and 76 beds being converted to 66 beds on another, to total 291 complex care beds. There is a decommis- sioning of 27 intermediate care beds, replaced with 75 assisted-living units.

Total spaces in 2006 that are pos- sible with the existing funding will be 379. The com- munity is expecting funding for an additional 40 com- plex care beds to address ALC pressures at St. Joseph's Hospital. That's one community alone. Are we talking about some beds being decommis- sioned? Yes, because of the particular circumstances around that facility, but we're also talking about a whole bunch of new facilities that are being developed or converted or renovated. I think this is all good news for the seniors that are living in the Comox Valley — that there are going to be some exciting new options for them.

I think that's the ke y word around all of this — options to actually meet the individual needs of sen- iors depending on their particular circumstances and their need for independence versus their need for on- going health care support. Th at's the goal, and I think the Comox Valley is a perfect example of a community where we're making progress towards that objective. J. Kwan: Well, I wanted to ensure — and the minis- ter has actually committed on record now — that the comparison of the 5,000 new intermediate and long- term care beds would be to the same standards, no matter how the

definitions ar e being used or redefined right now, in terms of wh at those 5,000 new beds would be. That is important, and the standard of care is important insofar as what was then and how it was defined and what it is now and how it is being newly defined. That's important to establish. [1550] When I said that the extended care beds that are needed…. As I mentioned earlier, this morning, the idea of the extended care beds is to alleviate the pres- sures in the emergency rooms and hospitals, and I think that need is still in existence. That need hasn't disappeared.

The continuum of different levels of fa- cilities for seniors is still needed. I appreciate that, but I do want to make sure that the government does not replace with lesser-supported beds to what was in place, which had a higher level of support, because then it is not comparing apples to apples in terms of what the government's action is. That's why I ask about the baseline of 2,500. The government has now committed that it will replace the same levels of health care facilities to that which was in place before. That is good. That's good to know, so we can use that as a measurement.

Now, with respect to the notion that the govern- ment is trying to assess seniors appropriately so that seniors will get put into a ppropriate support services and the right kinds of beds, etc., I can appreciate that. Can the minister advise, th en: is the assessment being used completely health related, or are there other measures that the government is using to determine whether or not a senior shou ld go from intermediate care to, let's say, assisted living? Hon. C. Hansen: I j u s t w a n t t o c o m e b a c k t o a comment that the member made earlier, before she went on to a new subject.

She was talking about that there shouldn't be any lesser beds; I forgot the way she termed it. I think if you went to talk to a senior who was given the choice at a stage in their life where they may need extra help but still had the capacity for some independence…. If you gave them the choice of a bed

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8955 where they would have 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a- week nursing care, a totally dependent model where they really could not enjoy whatever independence they were capable of, and compare that to the option of as- sisted living — where they've got their own apartment- like suite, where they get me als that are prepared for them down the hall, where they can socialize with other members, have a sense of independence and still have some opportunity to have independence in their own apartment or their own unit with a small fridge or a small cooking unit and things like that — I think many seniors who still have a capacity for independ- ence would say that the assisted-living model is the preferable model. [1555] I think one of the things that frightened a lot of the seniors in the past was when they were faced with the prospect that the only alternative to the family home was to go into that totally dependent nursing home model we knew of in the past.

To say that we are going to have as many beds in that 24-7 model as we had before would not be meeting the needs of seniors. What we need are the new options — the new assisted- living models and supportive housing models — that I think seniors who can enjoy independence find much, much more attractive. I think the commitment we've made is based on that benchmark we talked about ear- lier of 25,000 beds that were there as of 2001. We will, by the end of 2006, have a net increase of 5,000 beds in this province that meet th at range of needs. I think that's the important thing to be kept in mind.

With regard to the kind of assessments that are done to determine at what level an individual would be placed, I can just give you a sense of the kind of as- sessment done by our community care nurses or others that will work with individuals in this regard. I'll just read out some of the assessments.

I think it's a total of about a six- or seven-page assessment document, but I'll just read out some of th e titles: cognitive patterns, for example; communication; hearing patterns; vision patterns; social functioning; mood and behaviour pat- terns; informal support services, which include a whole range of aspects of their daily living; physical function- ing; continence in the last seven days; disease diagno- ses; health conditions and preventative health meas- ures; dental status and oral health; skin condition; en- vironmental assessment; serv ice utilization.

These are all the different categories that are part of the assess- ment tools that are done. Medications are another area that is looked at in that assessment. It is quite comprehensive, and it cer- tainly does include a full ra nge of the challenges that seniors may be facing. If I can read one other….

This refers to: "The inter- RAI assessment tools are a standardized comprehen- s i v e f a m i l y o f t o o l s t h a t h a v e b e e n d e v e l o p e d b y a n international group of resear chers and used in over 30 countries." Currently in Canada, the provinces of Nova Scotia, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Yukon are in various st ages of implementing the interRAI home care and residential care tools. In British Columbia the health authorities will be implementing this new home care and residential care assessment process over the next few years as outlined in the per- formance agreements.

J. Kwan: In the long list of things for evaluation in determining whether or not a person should go from intermediate care to assisted living, is the person's fi- nancial situation taken into consideration? Hon. C. Hansen: The answer is no. When we are doing an assessment to determine the level of need that an individual has, it is not based on their income status. I think once they are placed — if they are placed, say, in an assisted-living environment — then the degree to which there is financial support from government for those needs is income-based.

For those seniors on low income, they do get far more financial support from government for those needs than a senior with a very high income in any one year. J. Kwan: It's interesting, because I've got an e-mail here which advises that it has been this organization's experience that those who go from intermediate care to assisted living… It's based largely on fiscal criteria — i.e., those with greater financial resources are very much encouraged to take the assisted-living route.

In fact, those seniors have been singled out to even re- ceive physical therapy in order for them to be at a health care level where they can live in assisted-living facilities, and it goes on to highlight a particular case. [1600] Then, the other criterion for determination is the dementia assessments, it advises in this e-mail. It states that it has been their experience that seniors from in- termediate care are being assessed as having high lev- els of dementia in order that they may fit into what the government now calls complex care. Maybe, first, the minister can shed some light on this issue.

Again, the e- mail came this morning as a result of our debate this morning. People who have been watching and the or- ganization who has written to us advise us that it's been their experience that fiscal criteria are the major influencing factor in deciding whether or not a person should go from intermediate care to assisted living. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] Hon. C. Hansen: Without more detail with regard to that e-mail the member has received, I'm at a loss as to how to answer that particular case. I guess it comes back to….

The interRAI tools we have put in place are not in any way dependent on the income level of the individual being assessed. If there is a case where somebody is trying to put somebody in a different clas- sification because of their income level, I would cer- tainly be interested in learning more details of it. The whole purpose of the standardized classification around the province is to bring consistency based on the individual needs of the person, not based on their financial needs.

8956 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 J. Kwan: I'm just checking with my staff to see whether or not I can put this information with the names of the organizations and the individuals im- pacted on the record publicly. I haven't obtained that assurance just yet, so I'm a little bit reluctant to do that, for confidentiality reasons. I wouldn't want to do that unless I have the authorization to do so. However, I want to be very clear. The information we've received from this organization is that seniors are being assessed largely based on financial situations as opposed to their care need s.

This is the information we've received, so I'll probably come back to it. I sus- pect that the people who e-mailed us would want this information on the record, and I'll come back to it. But i t ' s g o o d t o a c t u a l l y h a v e t h e m i n i s t e r s a y o n r e c o r d that financial considerations would not be part of the assessment. Then in the situations where that is hap- pening and where that information comes forward and we're able to bring that to the minister's attention with- out jeopardizing confidentiality, we certainly will be doing so.

Let me ask the other question in this e-mail, which contained the criterion of dementia as the assessment tool. Again, the e-mail advises that it's been their ex- perience that seniors from intermediate care are being assessed as having high le vels of dementia in order that they may fit into what the government now calls complex care. Is that the case? [1605] Hon. C. Hansen: As I think I mentioned earlier, this assessment tool is meant to be objective. It is meant to bring standardization around these. I think, even as I read out earlier some of the

definitions around the groupings within complex care, just that little sum- mary that I read gives some indication of the detail to which they have refined these

definitions to try to get that standardization. The ones that are doing these assessments are well-trained community nurses who have specific orientation around how to undertake these assessments so there is consistenc y throughout the province. Certainly, if anybody has any evidence that there is subjectivity being brought into these assessments, I would be pleased to hear about it because we clearly are trying to get to a model that brings certainty and consistency within those refined

definitions to make sure we've got a standardized process around the province. J. Kwan: Is it fair enough to say that given the re- classifications that the government is embarking on, the complex care group is the one group and the other one, I assume, is assisted living? Is it fair to say, then, there are basically two grou pings to which individuals could fit under — either assisted living or the complex care group category? Hon. C. Hansen: I think what the member is start- ing to look at is: what are the housing needs, and how do those get met?

Assisted living is a housing model that has a health care component to it. When you start looking at the interRAI tools that are being used, what they will do is evaluate the needs of the individual. At the end of the day, how those needs get met could be in a variety of ways. You could wind up with an individual who is in one of the complex care group- ings but can still stay in the family home and be sup- ported in the family home in a way that makes sure that their needs get met.

In other situations, it may be that that individual's circumstances require more secu- rity, more secure care — perhaps because of a demen- tia, for example. If you start looking at individuals who would have assessments that would be less than complex care, there's a whole range of different classifications that they could fit in, each of wh ich will then drive the kind of support that they would get. That support can be provided in a variety of settings. It could be in the fam- ily home. It could be in a supportive-housing environ- ment. It could be in an assisted-living environment.

Really, the assessment doesn't, at the end of it, come up with a result that says: "Oh, that person is eligible for an assisted-living unit." What it does is assess their i n d i v i d u a l n e e d s , a n d t h e n t h e y w o r k w i t h t h e i n d i - vidual and the family to determine what kind of a housing placement is most appropriate for them. It really is individualized — trying to look at the individ- ual needs, the individual capacity for independence and the kinds of supports that that individual may require. J.

Kwan: There used to be these categories: inter- mediate care level 1, level 2 and level 3, supportive housing, assisted living, lo ng-term care or extended care. That used to be the spectrum. Now, as things are being redefined — and I haven't got all the terminol- ogies before me — what I do know so far is that there's a grouping called the complex care grouping. Then there is, I presume, a grou ping called the assisted- living grouping. [1610] Now, the minister says there is a range of classifica- tions. What is that range of classifications that's being used now by this government?

I'm just going to add to that, because I only know of two right now, and those ar e assisted living and the complex care groupings. Supportive housing I'm not considering as part of the groupings, because suppor- tive housing…. Well, no. I should actually consider supportive housing as part of the classification, because the minister said earlier of supportive housing that there are some that would fit into the 5,000 new beds and there are some that would not. Okay, so there are thr ee categories: supportive housing, assisted living and complex care groups. Am I missing any other categories? Hon. C.

Hansen: I think what's important is to come…. I think we're confusing two things here. One is the care needs for the individual and the degree to which they have lost their independence — the degree

TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8957 to which they need supports. That's what these tools — the interRAI tools — are all about. I think the member may be getting confused by trying to stay in a housing model. There are two things here. One is the kind of housing that is appropriate for seniors, and the other is the kind of care and support they need. Those are two very separate things.

If I could just read a definition as to the transition t h a t i s t a k i n g p l a c e : " T h e M i n i s t r y o f H e a l t h S e r v i c e s identified the need for an improved, reliable and valid assessment tool to replace the 20-year-old long-term care assessment form. In January of 2002 the Ministry of Health Services mandated the interRAI home care (MDS-HC) and residential care (MDS 2.0)." Those are the two assessment tools that have been mandated as the new standard for the province.

Now, if an individual is assessed under the basis of the home care tool, they could still wind up in a range of different housing enviro nments. They could wind up at home with home care support, they could wind up in supportive housing with home care support, or they could wind up in assisted living with home care support — all coming out of this assessment tool. In the case of the residential care assessment tool, that would actually look at the kind of facility care that may be required because of the particular circum- stances of the individuals.

I think we've got to recog- nize that we have to look at care, and that can be any- thing from lower levels of care right through to demen- tia care, which could all be provided in the individual's family home, or it could be provided in supportive housing or assisted living or, indeed, in a complex care setting. There are two things. One is the assessment tools to determine the level of support that is required, and the other is the housing options that may be available to them. I think we have to be careful not to confuse the two. [1615] J.

Kwan: Yes, I'm trying not to confuse the two in terms of housing options versus health care options. The minister says that perhaps under the assisted- living model, if home support is needed for the indi- vidual and where home suppor t is provided for, then the senior or the person could continue to live inde- pendently because all they need is home support. Then maybe the minister can tell me first: in the situation where home support is needed for the person to live independently, is that considered assisted living? Un- der what category does that situation fall? Hon. C.

Hansen: You could have an individual who is provided with home support in a range of facili- ties. As I say, it could be the family home, but it could also be assisted living. There's a whole range of op- tions. It is the care compon ent that is driven by these assessment tools, and that care can be provided any- where — well, not anywhere, but in a variety of cir- cumstances that may meet the individual needs of that senior. What comes out of the assessment tool, in terms of the kind of home support or home care that may be required, does not in itself dictate the kind of housing option that is necessary. J.

Kwan: Yes, I can appreciate that home support could be given in any situation, whether it be assisted living or in the person's own home or whatever the case may be. Well, then let me try and recast my ques- tion. What is deemed to be assisted living? Hon. C. Hansen: This is defined, actually, in the Community Care and Assisted Living Act as well. Just to give a bit of a background, which is probably not in the same kind of leg

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	h0302pm-04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	h0302pm 04
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8f50a9c8f5f07c99f79ef1036268caae79774402

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