May 12, 1992 SOCIAL SERVICES ESTIMATES

COMMITTEE-ENVIRONMENT & LANDS

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. John Crane, MHA

for Harbour Grace, Mr. Melvin Penney, MHA for Lewisporte, and Mr. Doug Oldford,

MHA for Trinity North, substituting respectively for Mr. John Efford, MHA for

Port de Grave, Mr. James Walsh, MHA for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and Mr. Walter

Noel, MHA for Pleasantville, respectively.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ramsay): I now call the

meeting to order.

I have been asked by the Chair of the Committee,

Mr. Walter Noel, to fill in for him. By leave of the Committee this morning, I

sit in the Chair on his behalf. I might note that this morning on the review of

the Department of Social Services we had some substitutions. There are a couple

of changes.

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Crane, MHA for

Harbour Grace, Mr. Penney, MHA for Lewisporte and Mr. Oldford, MHA for Trinity

North, substituting respectively for Mr. Efford, MHA for Port de Grave, Mr.

Walsh, MHA for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and Mr. Noel, MHA for Pleasantville,

respectively. The existing Committee members are unable to attend due to other

commitments. The required notices have been filed with the Clerk and I

understand everything is in order in that regard.

We have the Vice-Chair, Ms. Verge, here with us,

and Mr. Harris as well, the MHA for St. John's East. Are you expecting -

MS. VERGE: The Member for Torngat Mountains

will be here in a minute.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Torngat Mountains. Okay. Garfield

Warren, the MHA for Torngat Mountains, will be attending as well.

The first order of business is to pass the minutes

of the meeting of May 12, this morning, at 9:00 a.m.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We would like to welcome the

Minister of Environment and Lands, the hon. Patt Cowan. This is the first

opportunity you have had to appear before this Committee in your new portfolio.

We will have you introduce your officials and if you have an opening statement -

it's not required - but if you do want to give an opening statement that's fine.

With that we will turn it over to you and then we will set up lines of

questioning. Ten minutes per member, time for some responses, and then we'll

move on.

Ms. Cowan.

MS. COWAN: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I

am very pleased to have this opportunity to present to the Committee this

evening the estimates of the Department of Environment and Lands for the next

fiscal year, 1992-1993. As you mentioned this is my first occasion to present

estimates as Minister for the Department of Environment and Lands, and I would

like to say that I am extremely excited about being in this particular

portfolio. I am pleased when I look back over the work that was done in the past

year, and I am really looking forward to this coming year where we actually are

now already in the midst of forming some legislation that I think will be very

important to the Province.

I will introduce to you some of my officials. John

Fleming, who is my deputy minister; David Jeans, who is the ADM with the

responsibility for Environment and Wildlife; Bob Winsor is not here this

evening, he had another pressing commitment having to do with departmental

business, he looks after Lands and Parks; directly behind me is Frank Harris,

who is head of our financial administration; and then beside him is John Power,

who is the Director of Land Management.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would just note, Minister,

before you continue, that if you require your officials to answer any questions

or to elaborate on anything would you have them identify themselves just prior

to speaking?

MS. COWAN: Okay, fine.

This government is committed, Mr. Chair, as you are

well aware, to preserving and promoting the richness of our beautiful Province.

Accordingly, the Budget includes additional resources in the estimates of the

Department of Environment and Lands to ensure that environmental management

issues are given increased attention.

A number of significant new initiatives over the

coming year will aid in the protection and the enhancement of our physical

environment. Notwithstanding the difficult position of the Province, government

has seen fit to provide funding for additional staff in environment and in the

wildlife branch of our department.

Specific areas, programs, in environmental

protection to be addressed with the new resources include stepped-up enforcement

of environmental legislation; more timely application of our environmental

assessment process; greater attention to air quality issues; improved service to

the public regarding the processing of regulatory approvals and permits, and the

provision of public education and outreach services.

Funding in the amount of $60,000 was provided just

last weekend actually, to support a cost-shared household hazardous waste

collection project for the St. John's area.

Increased funding for the wildlife division will

ensure that a number of temporary wildlife protection officers can be taken on

during the Fall and Winter periods when hunting pressures are greatest. Also,

funding for equipment and training for staff in the area of wildlife will be

increased.

Funding in the amount of $4,609,000 has been

provided also for the cleanup of the contaminated sites at Makinsons, Come By

Chance and Gander. The work is carried out under a federal/provincial agreement,

50/50, called The National Contaminated Sites Remediation Program.

Chairperson, the department has successfully

negotiated transfer and funding agreements in connection with the reversion of

funding agreement, which currently awaits the signature of the federal Minister

of Transport, provides for funding in the amount of $540,000 over a two-year

period which began April of last year, to pay for hiring contractual personnel

conducting legal surveys and other associated costs.

Our lands branch will continue to make land

available for recreational and residential purposes through a cost-recovery

program. It is anticipated that in excess of 200 lots will be made accessible

and become available for application by the public in this fiscal year.

Significant work will be carried out in our parks

branch this year. Although we are called Environment and Lands, we do have

responsibility for parks and wildlife. The Tourism Historic Resources Agreement

will see almost $4 million expended in four provincial parks over a five-year

period.

During 1992-93 these are the projects that will be

undertaken: $100,000 will be expended to design a visitor

interpretation centre

at Cape St. Mary's; $200,000 will see the completion of a camp site upgrading

and comfort station and trail work at Barachois Park; and $400,000 will be used

to construct a comfort station and improve camp sites at Dildo Run Park;

$100,000 will be spent on Fitzgerald's Pond to undertake study and site plans

for new facility developments.

Chairperson, these are some of the highlights of

our department's plan for the 1992-93 year. Allow me now to give the committee a

brief overview of the department's structure and operations following the format

that is set down for us in the estimates.

As is standard with other government departments,

our departmental estimates initially provide for the operation of the minister's

office, the executive and administrative support functions. Beyond that, the

estimates reflect the organization of the department in two sectors, environment

and wildlife, and then

section 2, lands and parks.

Chairperson, as I am sure you are aware, just by my

introductions, we have two assistant deputy ministers - Dave Jeans, who I just

introduced, and Bob Winsor, who is doing other departmental business this

evening. These two positions, and the directors of Human Resources, Financial

Administration, Policy and Planning, and Public Relations, report to the deputy,

Mr. John Fleming.

I will now briefly review the Department's

principal programs beginning with Environment and Wildlife. There are five

divisions in that particular branch. First of all, the Environmental

Investigations division is responsible for monitoring commercial, municipal and

hazardous wastes, and ensuring that they are disposed of in an environmentally

acceptable manner. This division is also responsible for oil and chemical spill

response, processing applications for fuel storage systems, and for processing

environmental approvals for small-scale developments.

Second, we have the Civil and Sanitary

Environmental Engineering division. It is responsible for the investigation and

identification of environmental problems relating to the design, construction

and operation of municipal infrastructure systems. The division also carries out

an operator training program for operators of municipal water and sewer systems

throughout the Province.

Third, we have the Industrial Environmental

Engineering Division. It ensures that all industry in our Province complies with

the requirements of legislated environmental standards and undertakes the

evaluation of air quality in sensitive areas. A network of seven precipitation

stations is operated in the Province to monitor and assess the impacts of acid

rain.

Fourth, the Water Resources Management Division, is

responsible for the implementation and evaluation of approved programs relating

to the conservation, development control, improvement and proper utilization of

water resources in our Province. The water investigations and water rights

section issues approvals for stream alterations and water use authorizations.

Fifth, the Environmental Assessment Division

administers the Environmental Assessment Act and the Pesticides Control Act.

This Environmental Assessment Act provides for the protection of the environment

of Newfoundland and Labrador by requiring the registration for possible

assessment by all undertakings which may have a significant impact on the

environment. As I mentioned earlier, new resources this year will see more

timely application of our environmental assessment process.

The significance of this area of activity has

continued to grow due to our role in overseeing the development and

implementation of the environmental protection plan for the Hibernia-GBS

construction site. The plan, known as the EPP, describes the specific

environmental protection measures which will have to be taken throughout the

life of the project, from GBS construction through to site de-commissioning. The

government is working with Nodeco and the Hibernia Management and Development

Company Limited on an ongoing basis in developing appropriate standards for the

construction, operation and the eventual rehabilitation, or subsequent future

use, of the site.

The Wildlife division, now, is the agency which has

responsibility for the management and protection of our provincial wildlife

resources. On the island a total of 28,390 moose licenses and 2,720 caribou

licenses are available for the 1992-1993 hunt. This represents a decrease of

837, or 2.8 per cent, in moose licenses, and an increase of eighty, or 3 per

cent, caribou licenses over the 1991-1992 quotas. In Labrador, moose quotas are

increased by 7 per cent from those of 1991, with a total of 155 moose licenses

available for the 1992-1993 hunt. My Department will take steps, with the help

of extra funding, to ensure that our wildlife protection officers are not

working under unsafe conditions, and to improve communications and

transportation equipment within this branch.

Now, Mr. Chairman, moving on to Lands and Parks;

the Crown Lands Division is responsible for the administration and control of

Crown Land. The division processes these land applications and issues Crown

titles; this work is largely decentralized through the regional offices in St.

John's, Gander, Corner Brook and Goose Bay.

The Crown Lands Division is also responsible for

maintaining the Crown Land Registry which houses all the official documents that

deal with the granting, leasing, licensing and transfer of Crown Land in the

Province. Related to this, is the cadastral mapping

section which is actively

plotting all Crown titles on large scale mapping. This division also operates a

map and air photo library, where maps and photos can be viewed or purchased.

The Land Management Division is responsible for the

orderly management of the Province's Crown Land resource. This division, through

the Interdepartmental Land Use Committee, reviews proposals which may impact on

Crown Land. Examples include draft legislation, municipal and regional plans,

reserves, waste disposal sites and silviculture plans. The Land Management

Division prepares land use plans and undertakes certain small scale

developments. As I stated before, in excess of 200 lots will be made accessible

to the public in 1992-93, through a cost recovery program.

The Surveys and Mapping Division has responsibility

for the provincial geodetic survey and topographic mapping programs. Work is

continuing in the production of large scale maps for use in resource planning

and property mapping. The division is contracting $80,000 annually to convert

topographic maps to computer digital data sets as part of a 50/50 cost-shared

The Surveys and Mapping Division also provides

support services to other departments and agencies of the provincial government

in standards, specifications, contract inspections and consultation in the areas

of legal surveys, mapping, air photography and geographic information systems.

The Parks Division is one of the major components of the department and is

responsible for all matters related to the planning and management of our

provincial parks system. We have a total of eighty provincial parks, thirteen

ecological reserves and two wilderness reserves in the system of parks

encompassing an area of 4,497 kilometres.

Our system of provincial parks protects some of our

Province's most valuable resources. Government is continuing to preserve and

protect these special natural areas while providing high quality standard

services for the general public. Several new initiatives are under way this

year; the government will be taking immediate steps to establish an internal

task force on provincial parks, with a mandate to develop, in consultation with

various interest groups, a master plan for the parks system as a whole. We will

participate, in conjunction with the people of Labrador including native groups,

in feasibility studies for the possible establishment of national parks in the

Torngat Mountains and Mealy Mountain areas.

Outside this, park officials are continuing to

prepare a management plan for Main River in Sop's Arm and are working to

nominate the Bay du Nord River to the Canadian River Heritage System. Some of

you may have noticed that that was used on a series of stamps some while back

which I felt quite pleased to see.

Chairperson, this concludes my review of the

principal programs of the two branches of the Department of Environment and

lands. I trust that the information I presented will provide the committee with

an accurate account of the significant and diverse responsibilities of my

department and I trust this has been reflected accordingly in the departmental

estimates.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister Cowan.

That presentation leaves very little in the way of

not covering anything but I am sure that that will not preclude any of our

members from having any questions. I now ask the Vice-Chair if you would like to

have some time to question the minister?

MS. VERGE: Yes, I would, but I will pass to my

colleague the PC Opposition critic Mr. Warren and I will have a turn later.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren go ahead.

MR. WARREN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman.

Madame minister, I listened to you the last seven

or eight minutes outlining your tasks. I do not want to be really critical but I

have to say, and I say this in all honesty, the department that you have

recently taken over I really believe is too big for you. I say that in all

honesty, I do not think you can accomplish what needs to be done in that

particular department. I am not saying that for any reason other than in knowing

what people are saying. In our Province today, other than unemployment, the

environment is the most serious issue and with all due respect to you we as an

opposition have been having difficulty in getting answers to questions since

this Legislature opened. I understand there are reasons why you cannot be here,

and that is unfortunate, because this issue is too important for a minister not

to be here to answer the very, very serious questions that need to be answered.

Hopefully tonight I will get some of the questions out but three hours is not

going to be enough. I really think that day after day there are very serious

questions that need to be answered. I asked a question a month and a half ago

about Kitts Michelin and I have not yet got an answer back on that one. I think

it is a bit ridiculous that when there are questions asked that the public

cannot be given some answers to those questions. I think I will probably start

off with Kitts Michelin. Recently the company involved have allowed people from

nearby communities to go into this area, dismantle buildings, take what they

want to take, at the same time knowing, and your department knew, your officials

knew, that there are dangerous chemicals in that area and not one thing has been

done about it. People were allowed by the company to go into this area, break

windows out, and tear doors down on buildings that held dangerous chemicals. It

is no good for any official or yourself to tell me otherwise because I can even

tell you the names of the people who went in there. As of yet I have no

explanation, or the people in Postville or Makkovik have no explanation as to

why that company was allowed to do that and at the same time, knowing that

company tried to con a Labrador businessman into signing an agreement to clean

up that site for $325,000 over a year ago and this guy would not do it because

of the good advice he got from a former employee of your department.

Madame minister you announced about cleanups in

Come By Chance, Makinsons, and I think it was Gander or Gambo, one of those

places. But the biggest cleanup that is needed to be done is from this uranium

mine between Makkovik and Postville that the company was advised to do back in

1982-83 I think it was, and they still have not done it. I would like to have an

answer from the minister as to why the delay of this particular cleanup; and has

the minister dispatched someone to that site within the last month and a half?

If she did, could you tell us the findings and what was discovered?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren, I do not wish to

leave something on the record that is unclear. Your comment at the beginning of

your statement was somewhat all encompassing, you know. I wish you would be

clearer. I know you said with all due respect to the minister, but still... I

have no hesitation in allowing the minister to answer the question, but a

statement like that certainly needs clarification. I can understand you stating

the difficulty you had with the question you had asked and that had not been

answered for some reason or other, but I certainly think that you should qualify

a statement such as the one that you made as to whether the department is too

big for someone to handle. I am not going to debate the issue with you, but I

just feel you should certainly, the next time you speak, clarify that matter. I

will turn it over to the minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chair.

The Kitts Michelin deposits are under the Federal

Atomic Energy Central Board, and they are the most actively involved in the

decommissioning of those two sites. Now at the same time we do have a person in

Labrador who does visit those particular sites.

As you will recall, they were never fully

developed. There was some exploration there but the development never took

place. We are not aware, in the department, of any dangerous chemicals that are

there. If you indeed have that information we would certainly be more than happy

to have it. We have not had that information reported to us by our individual

who looks into that type of thing in Labrador.

MR. WARREN: Excuse me, Madam Minister. The

question was asked in the House. The thirty-four containers were identified, and

the person who was substituting for you during your illness is already on record

in this Legislature, but no answer came back to me and there are thirty-four

containers.

MS. COWAN: Thirty-four containers?

MR. WARREN: That is right.

MS. COWAN: Full of some sort of chemicals?

MR. WARREN: That is right.

MS. COWAN: Well I will have to take that under

advisement. I apologize to you if indeed your question had not been answered. I

did not realize that, and certainly meant no slight or affront to you, and it

was certainly not a withholding of information in any way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I suppose as far as being

pressing - did you ask the question again during the Late Show?

MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what you

are up to. I am here to ask questions, and whether you like it or not I do not

care, okay?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that, and I would

not expect you to like what I say. That is part of the process in which we are

involved.

Anyway, if you have any further questions -

MR. WARREN: Yes, I have a number of questions.

I guess I can go my ten minutes and someone else can cut in.

Madam Minister this goes back a number of years,

and it pertains to a blind individual, we all know the guy by the name of

Russell Rogers. He had applied for a big game licence. This is not just since

you became minister, but has gone on for a number of years - five or six years

ago - and he has been asking for a ruling on it. The courts said no. So this

individual has not received his big game license. He wanted to get his license

and have someone else kill an animal for him.

Right now a person who is not blind but may be a

senior citizen or whatever can obtain a license and have someone else kill an

animal for him.

This issue should be looked at as more than just a

particular person issue. If we allow under law a person to obtain a license and

have someone else kill his big game animal than surely we should extend this

right to a blind person.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask for

clarification on the question? The gentleman to whom Mr. Warren -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Penney, go ahead.

MR. PENNEY: The gentleman to whom Mr. Warren

referred earlier, the blind gentleman, was he a resident of Labrador?

MR. WARREN: No, Gambo.

MR. PENNEY: Are you suggesting that there are

other people in the Island portion of this Province who can have somebody else

shoot their moose for them?

MR. WARREN: No, no.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chair.

I think you have raised a very good point. It is

one with which I have a great deal of sympathy and I am reviewing the matter.

MR. WARREN: Yes. Thanks. Could I go on or is my

ten minutes up?

Your predecessor, before he got into provincial

politics, advocated and in fact gave a lot of support for a provincial park in

the Lake Melville area. In fact in last year's budget there was some money

identified to continue with the possibility of the park in the Lake Melville

area and you announced just now in your summation that there are going to be

some monies spent on the various parks and everything else but you did not

mention the Northwest River or the Lake Melville park per se. Could the minister

advise if that park is put on the back burner indefinitely, or is it just put

back for a little while?

MS. COWAN: Well, I will turn that particular

question to the deputy or the appropriate person whom he designates in a minute.

One of the things that we are doing, which I mentioned in my opening remarks, is

that we are taking a good hard look at all the parks in the Province to see

which ones could perhaps no longer be in existence because of low usage or

whatever, and ones that we might develop even further, the ones that have a

potential for attracting tourism, that have interesting habitats that we might

want to protect, ecological systems that might be important to protect and that

type of thing, so we would be hesitant to leap into doing any particular new

development at this stage. However I am not sure what happened to the plans last

year, so I will ask John or his designate to comment.

MR. FLEMING: The money spent last year on Grand

Lake Park was for land acquisition and for surveying the boundary, not on actual

development of the park itself. It is not on the back burner any more than other

parts of the same category that have been designated as parks, but they really

wait adequate capital monies in order to develop. Another example would be

Topsail Beach.

The ones mentioned in the minister's remarks were

parks on which there will be some spending under a federal/provincial agreement

that applies to specific parks on the island.

MR. WARREN: Could I just sum up with this

conclusion? I have had concerns about this particular issue for years because we

have the golfing park there that has been developed by the councils and other

people and organizations. Do you not think it would be the tax payers money

spent foolishly - and I use the word foolishly - in making another park eight

and a half miles from this particular park

whereas public money could have been

going to improving this particular golfing park?

MS. COWAN: I am not quite sure. Could you

elaborate a bit? I am not sure what you are referring to.

MR. WARREN: Okay, in Happy Valley - Goose Bay

now North West River to Goose Bay is roughly twenty-two kilometres.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: Now between Goose Bay and North

West River there is already a public park which is being developed with very

little money. I think there were a few grants over the years from government,

but most of it was done by organizations and by councils and things like that.

This park is a very usable park, a very popular park, but here we are now in the

last number of years talking about developing a provincial park seven kilometres

away. We only have a population of 7,000 or 8,000 people in that complete area,

and I have held the view that I believe government should be seriously looking

at it. If they are going to use tax payers money put it in to improve the

golfing park instead of starting another park. If this is done then both parks

will not be used to their potential.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, if I may.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

MS. COWAN: It is certainly, I think, an

interesting point of view, and one that is well worth examining. It sounds to me

you have a particularly good case. I would say that when we do our study of the

parks, when that study is complete we are going to look for some mechanism - we

haven't quite decided yet - to get public feedback on that particular study. If

that has not been addressed adequately there will be an opportunity for people

in that area of Labrador to provide us with some input. I might add too that

once the House is closed I plan to spend a week or two in Labrador visiting

women's centres, looking at some of the environmental concerns, the park

situation and so on. So I think it would probably be well worth my while to have

a look at that particular situation and certainly take the points you raised and

the spirit in which you raised them and look into the matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. Mr. Warren,

your time has expired. I will now move on to another committee member. Mr.

Penney? Mr. Crane?

MR. CRANE: Give Jack his turn.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Chair. First of all I

would say that the minister has, I would agree, probably one of the most

important and significant government departments because it is a department that

is often faced in conflict with the agenda, I suppose, of other departments and

other ministers, and other efforts of government and industry and it requires a

fairly determined effort. I would like to ask a few questions on that particular

aspect of it.

First of all, you mentioned the wilderness area

that we have in the Province of some four thousand four hundred and odd square

kilometres. I believe I am right in saying that our proportion of our land mass

which is reserved for wilderness is very small by way of percentage, compared to

the Canadian average and to other provinces, and in fact is far short of the

goal that has been set by international organizations as the desirable goal to

maintain wilderness areas. I believe - now the minister or her officials may be

able to correct me if I am wrong - that the goal has been set at I believe 10

per cent, or it may be 8 per cent, of land mass preserved for wilderness areas.

With the increasing pressures on all land in this

Province, particularly with the kind of access that is obtained through these

awful machines that go roaring through our forests and wilderness in the

wintertime and summertime, can the minister say whether the government is

committed to establishing reserve lands for the use of our children and our

children's children, and ourselves, to be preserved as wilderness areas? Is

there a commitment on the part of government to a specified goal such as that

adopted in other provinces of 10 per cent, 12 per cent, or 8 per cent? Perhaps

Mr. Fleming there is telling the minister what that established goal is. Is

there a commitment on the part of government to that.

MS. COWAN: Okay. No, I was just wanting to find

out actually the percentage on what part of the island, or of the Province in

fact, is now protected. It is 1.7 per cent. Seven per cent of the island is

protected. But of the whole Province it comes to 1.7 per cent. With the two

Labrador parks that I referred to in my opening remarks that will bring the

provincial total up to about 12 per cent, which is still below what in fact it

should be. The Premier in a letter to Monty Hummel from the Endangered - is it

the Endangered Spaces Association?

MR. FLEMING: Endangered Spaces, World Wildlife

Foundation.

MS. COWAN: Yes, of the World Wildlife

Foundation. The Premier in a letter to him said that we could not promise to

reach the required percentage of 12 by the year 2000, but we would be making

every effort to do so. So that is the path that we are intent on following. I

say that it is something that I feel very strongly about. I think anyone who is

interested in environment - I remember reading not too long ago, and you might

be interested, or you might be aware of this yourself - that some of the groups,

I believe the World Wildlife Federation, says that we only have thirty years of

wild forests left within the Canadian nation. That is pretty frightening when we

tend to think of ourselves as a vast land with all this area where no foot has

ever tramped and that kind of thing. So we feel a strong commitment to creating

more reserves, more wilderness areas. But whether or not we can reach our stated

goal by the year 2000 we're not quite sure.

MR. HARRIS: Aside from the northern Labrador

parks which obviously involves a commitment and cooperation with aboriginal

groups and aboriginal rights and other matters, is the government prepared to

find other areas within the island portion of the Province to be committed as

wildlife preserves or are we saying now: this is it, everything else is up for

development?

MS. COWAN: I did not hear your last part?

MR. HARRIS: Are we saying we have had enough

and we are not looking at other areas? Are we finished with the Island as far as

wildlife preserves? Are we looking to other areas that we might be able to

preserve as particular habitats or examples of - I guess habitat is the only

word I can think of - where a particular species or type of topography is

available?

MS. COWAN: We have not decided we are finished

with the Island. We have, for example, the pine marten on the west coast of the

Province and right now it is living in a protected area because that land is

under environmental assessment and has been for a number of years. That land is

being held one way or another hopefully for the development of the pine marten

which is rapidly becoming an endangered species. There are a number of ideas we

have that might see that land become a reserve. It may become a model forest

area which is part of the Green Plan. It could be made a reserve by our

government and we are exploring that at the moment. We are always on watch for

any animal that is in an endangered state, a bird, or whatever, and will make

efforts to establish a reserve if we think that particular creature can be

regenerated and brought back, so we certainly would never write off the Island.

I did mention that we are now looking to get the whole Main River, and that

would encompass a certain amount of land mass around it, declared a national

heritage site. Labrador is of course a big interest to us and we will be looking

there over the next few years because there is some prime wilderness area there

that we would like to keep intact. We have a committee called WERAC which has a

mandate to find ecological reserves in the Province and develop, explore and

present plans to the government as to why these particular areas should be made

permanent natural sites.

MR. HARRIS: As part of the interest in getting

the Main River area recognized as a heritage site is government considering or

introducing plans to have it protected under its own legislation as a wilderness

area? Is that being done as a preliminary part of this application?

MS. COWAN: I would have to turn that question

over to the deputy.

MR. FLEMING: That is under consideration over

the long-term as perhaps a waterway provincial park but that is a very long-term

goal. The immediate goal is to have it declared a Canadian heritage river which

then provides a level of profile, if you will, and some monies for planning how

the thing should be protected and this sort of thing.

MR. HARRIS: But the Province can declare it

under its own legislation as a wilderness preserve, can it not?

MR. FLEMING: It could be done theoretically

under the Wilderness Ecological Reserves Act, yes, or it could be done under the

Provincial Parks Act.

MR. HARRIS: Without necessarily committing a

tremendous amount of money to it but still protecting it?

MR. FLEMING: Quite true.

MR. HARRIS: Is that under consideration?

MR. FLEMING: It is not on the list of areas

that is being put forward by the Wilderness Ecological Reserves Advisory Council

that the minister referred to. It is among the areas that are in consideration

by our Provincial Parks Division for perhaps a waterways park that would be a

slightly different class of park than we have at the moment.

MR. HARRIS: Could the minister or the

department officials provide us with a list of the sites under consideration by

the advisory committee? They may not have it available now but after our

meetings? Is that possible?

MS. COWAN: What was the time frame you had it

mind, over the next week or so?

MR. HARRIS: I am not talking about this

evening, no.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. HARRIS: Last spring there was an issue

concerning disposal of solid human waste from Conception Bay South that was

prompted by the City of St. John's expressing concern about this form of waste

being dumped in Robin Hood Bay. At the time it was suggested by me and, I am

sure others, that it was an opportunity for some creative activity or creative

co-operation between the Department of Environment and Lands, the municipal

officials involved and private industry, perhaps, to develop some pilot project,

some method of waste disposal that would be efficient economically but,

environmentally, set an example as to how this form of waste might be used, not

only to dispose of but also to provide nutrients or fertilizer or whatever else

could be done with it. Can the minister advise whatever happened to these

discussions? Did anything come out of them? Has the department gone on to set up

a pilot project? I know they have spent, as the minister said, $60,000 for a

one-day effort on household hazardous waste. Has the minister committed any

funds to this type of activity?

MS. COWAN: We have not committed any funds

because we didn't need to. Mr. Paul Antle, who is a businessperson here involved

in environmental type of business, is setting up a particular plant in the area

of Conception Bay South which does deal with that type of septic sludge. So

that, I suppose, is going to be open any day now, is it?

MR. FLEMING: It should be by the end of the

month.

MS. COWAN: By the end of the month. So that was

done in co-operation with the Department of Environment and Lands, the Town of

Conception Bay South and the communities there round about.

MR. HARRIS: Does this involve any use of it,

other than disposal of the sludge? Is this a waste disposal business? Are we

talking about some ecological usage or recycling?

MS. COWAN: Some sort of a by-product, type of

thing.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a by-project from Mr.

Antle's -

MS. COWAN: Yes, he is exploring the area of

fertilizers. John, did you want to say something?

MR. FLEMING: Well, if I can, yes.

MS. COWAN: Go ahead.

MR. FLEMING: We gave Mr. Antle a certificate of

approval for this particular facility, actually, last summer, and then over the

winter he has been putting together his financing. It uses a somewhat unusual,

at least for this Province, type of technology. It is a centrifuge type of

technology, which separates the solids from the liquids. He thinks that he can

actually get a market for getting rid of the solids for use in making

fertilizer. Exactly that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has expired

right now. I will turn it over to Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

Last year, when we were considering the estimates

of the Department of Environment and Lands, I began my questioning of the

minister by asking what, in his opinion, are the most pressing threats or the

gravest threats to the environment of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would like to

ask the present minister the same question.

MS. COWAN: That is a good question in the sense

that we have, I suppose, a number of priorities. I can't identify that, you

know, this is one overriding priority, but I think that waste disposal would

certainly be near the top of the list. That is a very, very important issue,

becoming more so all across Canada. In fact, I suppose, we would be one of the

later provinces, not having the density of population. But we do have some

unique geographical features that make dealing with waste more difficult here in

the Province. So that would certainly be one very, very important issue.

Also, we are part of a number of national protocols

and agreements and so on that have been worked out by the Canadian Council of

Ministers of the Environment, where we are working together to do our

part in

the `act locally/think locally' mode in which we have to be much more vigilant

in monitoring air quality, doing our part to reduce noxious chemicals and what

have you that might enter into the atmosphere.

We're involved in protection of the ozone layer

through an agreement regarding CFCs; the greenhouse effect, we're playing a role

in that as well. Each province has been asked to reach a certain level in

emissions by certain dates, varying dates for each of these things. So those are

certainly very important issues. I see public education in the environment... do

you want me to keep going or...?

MS. VERGE: Okay. My question was not what are

your priorities, but what in your opinion are the worst threats to the

environment. You have named waste disposal, air quality, the ozone layer, the

greenhouse effect. Thank you. Last year your predecessor identified waste

management as the greatest problem for the environment. So there is a

consistency there. What then are we doing even talking about importing garbage

from the United States?

MS. COWAN: I wondered if you weren't working up

to that, I'll have to say. I think that to answer that question, Ms. Verge, we

would have to look at the position that I play as Minister of Environment. As

was referred to by the Member for St. John's East, I play sort of - it's unusual

- but a particular role within government where it might even be seen at times

that I am in conflict with some of the other aims of our government, although we

certainly try to keep the two balanced and look at sustainable development,

which is, you know, sort of the buzzword of this particular time.

As far as importing the garbage I would say that

there are a number of reasons that it is even being looked at. The ACOA

agreement with the company to explore the whole economic viability of it was the

first step. As yet it has not fallen into my lap or the government's lap, but

mine as Minister responsible for Environment and Lands. Once it does then the

responsibility of our Department becomes to assess it under whichever part of

the environmental process act we think it falls. I would say at this stage that

it would be the most stringent of environmental assessments and to look at it in

a very careful fashion.

As far as your question as to why are we looking at

it, when we might say that waste disposal is a problem in our own Province, I

suppose that if - and I mean, it is a big if, we don't know if this project will

go ahead or not; as I said, they haven't even registered it yet and once it is

registered we may find after looking into it that it is not acceptable. But

should it be acceptable it might indeed provide us with some sort of a prototype

or a model or the technology for dealing with our own garbage.

We have in the Province a problem because of our

geography with landfill so we have used incinerators to a large extent. We have

sixty in the Province now, which as you're probably aware, you've likely seen

some of them are spewing some things into the air which we have a desire not to

be -

There are a number of those. So we have to find

ways. That may come out of that. As I am suggesting too I think we have to look

for new technologies.

MS. VERGE: But can't we look for new

technologies without importing garbage from the big industrial and populated

centres of the United States?

MS. COWAN: That is a difficult question and I

think that is one that we are going to have to explore during the environmental

assessment process. There will be opportunity for public input and you are

reflecting there a large - massive feeling, really - from the public which has

certainly been made well known to me. We see things in the paper all the time

about it. I can see that in the future we are going to do more sharing of our

garbage.

For example, the hazardous waste day that we had in

St. John's recently, the household hazardous wastes that were collected went off

to Ontario to be recycled. We may see more within the Atlantic region - we,

probably, as a Province, cannot support a business that would just deal with

household hazardous waste. I use that as an example. We have to start separating

that from the rest of the stuff we put in our green garbage bags on the side of

the street. We may find that we have to share with the Atlantic Provinces or

with Ontario, whoever can deal with that type of garbage, and have other types

of sharing arrangements. Ontario, for example, now sends some of its waste

materials to the States. So I don't think it will be uncommon to see this kind

of thing taking place, but it will have to be under very rigid, strong,

vigilantly supervised modes of transport and modes of dealing with recycling,

whatever we do with the materials. Again, I caution that we have not given the

go-ahead to any waste to energy disposal plant at this particular stage.

MS. VERGE: Last year, I asked your predecessor

why the Provincial government doesn't have a recycling program for provincial

government offices and he gave a bunch of excuses. Why don't we have it today?

MS. COWAN: Well, I won't give you any excuses

because I think we should. It is one of the things that I am putting a focus on

in my ministry. I have already done some work. I can't reveal at this particular

stage at what place that particular work is. I know we are making a very

conscious effort in our department to move along in that particular area. It is

certainly something that I feel very, very strongly about, and I would give you

no excuses. It must be done and it must be done quickly.

MS. VERGE: By when.

MS. COWAN: I can't give you that date. You know

what it is like, having been in government yourself. Sometimes it takes longer

to bring things about than you anticipate. I am an impatient person, but I would

certainly like to see it happen over the next year or two. I don't know whether

certain departments are going to have more difficulty with it than others. I

would think the majority of the departments are not going to, it is much a

matter of just mind set.

MS. VERGE: It appears to me that all it takes

is the will, a little bit of leadership and a few bins with signs saying put

your paper in this one -

MS. COWAN: And put something else in the other

one.

MS. VERGE: - your plastic bottles in another

one, your tin cans in the third one, and we will arrange for drop-offs to Nova

Recycling every second Friday.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I am quite in agreement with

you. I think it should be taking place. Hopefully, we will see the will there,

and I am doing everything I can to foster it.

MS. VERGE: Back to Long Harbour. There are

serious concerns being expressed by people in the area, including your

colleague, the MHA for Placentia, about the slowness of the clean-up, and I have

heard some suggestion that there is a connection between the Albright Wilson

clean-up of the mess they created with the ERCO operation there, and the

incinerator for the U.S. garbage. Is there a link, and is there some threat that

if ERCO, if Albright Wilson or if the proponent of the incinerator doesn't get a

green light from the Province, they will back out of the clean-up undertaking?

MS. COWAN: They can't back out on the clean-up

undertaking.

MS. VERGE: Why not? I mean, what could be done

to penalize them?

MS. COWAN: Well, we can certainly take them to

the courts on the situation. They can't escape.

MS. VERGE: What assets do they have that you

could go after?

MS. COWAN: Well, at this stage we are examining

that, actually. I don't know if you are aware of it, whether you are referring

to the fact that Albright & Wilson are selling off some of their companies. You

didn't know that?

MS. VERGE: No.

MS. COWAN: This makes it even more of a

question, then. Albright and Wilson are selling off some of their companies in

Canada and, as many big concerns are these days, they are divesting themselves

of some of their holdings as a frugal move in difficult times. We are certainly

watching very carefully to make sure that there is, in no way, an attempt by

them to escape their responsibilities to the environment.

MS. VERGE: But what power do you have over

them?

MS. COWAN: Well, we have the legislation.

MS. VERGE: But what can we do through

legislation to penalize them if they default?

MS. COWAN: At this stage that is a hypothetical

question. I have been meeting with the principals of the company over the last

couple of weeks and the principals have changed. As far as I can see, there is

still a commitment there. We are moving ahead with the decommissioning. There

has been no suggestion that it will not continue. We are entering now into the

crucial stage of the decommissioning where I intend to monitor it daily. That is

the actual dealing with the phosphorus, which becomes the really tricky part of

it. It is very unusual, the first time in Canadian history that we have ever had

to deal with this. But at this stage we are assuming that they are going to meet

their responsibilities.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

The next topic, the Corner Brook water supply and

other municipal water supplies.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: I asked the acting minister and the

Ministers of Health and Municipal and Provincial Affairs questions about the

contamination of the Corner Brook water supply a little while ago. I was quite

disappointed with their answers. I would like to ask you now, as the Minister of

Environment and Lands, what you think went wrong and was it a mistake to have

allowed so much logging activity and recreational activity in the Corner Brook

watershed area. Your colleagues blamed this problem on beavers, but it is hard

to find anyone in the Corner Brook area who believes that beavers are the cause

of the problem. Conventional wisdom is that we humans are the cause of the

problem and if the beavers became contaminated it was because of human waste

being in the Corner Brook watershed area.

There has been virtually no attempt to prevent

human activity in the watershed area, and there was express permission given by

the provincial government and the City of Corner Brook to Corner Brook Pulp and

Paper to log in that area. Trees have been cleared right to the shore of the

pond which is the principal source of the Corner Brook water supply. It has all

happened, we have the problem and there is not a lot of point to casting blame.

What can we learn from that experience? What can we do to contain the problem?

What can we do to prevent it from occurring with other municipal water supplies?

MS. COWAN: I think you have really hit on a

very key thing. If I had gone on with my list of priorities I would have

eventually come to water, because I think we have perhaps been, as Canadians and

as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, somewhat nonchalant or whatever about our

water supplies. We have felt that they would be there forever. We have treated

them much the same as we have treated the air, the earth, the oceans and so on.

I don't dismiss, certainly, your suggestions re the

logging activity. I think the whole matter requires a good hard look. I am not

saying that that is the problem. I read some of the newspaper articles and so on

when I was on the West Coast and they made sense to me. I think it is an area

that could be explored. Because when, of course, you do particular types of

logging exercises it does change the topography of the land and could, indeed,

have some effect on the contamination of water.

So it is again an area that we don't know a lot

about but we must find out more. One of the things that, hopefully, shortly -

and I know that it started under your government, as well. How long has the

water legislation stuff been ongoing?

AN HON. MEMBER: About eleven years now.

MS. COWAN: Eleven years the Province has been

working on developing legislation in an attempt to protect the waters of our

Province. I am hoping that legislation will be brought into the fore over the

next year-and-a-half.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge, we have gone a little

over but -

MS. VERGE: May I just ask one more question to

follow up?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.

MS. VERGE: While I am encouraged with the

minister's attitude towards the Corner Brook water supply problem -

MS. COWAN: It is actually a real concern to me,

and I am afraid it might be the start of a number of incidents if we don't

become more vigilant. I am sorry, I'm not trying to take up your time.

MS. VERGE: Specifically, what will the minister

do to try to discover the root cause of that problem, to contain it, and to

prevent a similar occurrence with other municipal water supplies?

MS. COWAN: I think one of the things we have to

look at - now, for that specific, I must say that for the containing thing I

haven't at this particular stage given that any amount of thought. But it is

certainly something that we should do, and perhaps are doing. Are we -

AN HON. MEMBER: In conjunction with Health.

MS. COWAN: Okay, yes. Apparently, in

conjunction with Health that is looked at being contained and perhaps you would

like to comment on it.

MS. VERGE: I think it would help for you, as

the Minister of Environment, to say publicly what you just said. Because

officially the excuse is beavers, all this is being blamed on the little

beavers. Now, as I said, I haven't found anyone yet who -

MS. COWAN: Maybe it is the little beavers but I

don't think we know for sure.

MS. VERGE: I talked to employees of the

government departments concerned at junior or intermediate levels and off the

record they will say it's humans, but at the senior levels the explanation is

beavers. So, apparently, there is some move being made to take the beavers out

of the water and, I don't know, kill them or move them somewhere else. But it

just doesn't add up that this is a beaver problem. A public health official told

me that human waste likely got into the water supply, because people have been

in there without any restriction. All that logging activity went on without any

proper arrangement for outhouses or lavatories.

MS. COWAN: Yes, you're quite right. I was just

double-checking here to see if it did boil down to beaver waste but had been

maybe precipitated by other type of waste. But in fact, as you suggested, that

particular type of bacteria could be from any particular source. There is a

proliferation of beavers in that particular area and it has been felt that they

have added greatly, or perhaps created the whole problem.

I think that we have to take a broad look at it.

There is so much in the environmental area that is new. Everything seems to be

coming to a head now in this particular decade. So we have to be prepared to

take a good hard look at these things and, as you suggest, make sure they don't

happen elsewhere.

MS. VERGE: But, specifically, what are you

going to do there?

MS. COWAN: We are looking at the matter with

the Department of Health. John, you might want to comment on that.

MR. FLEMING: Our involvement has been to

provide support to the Department of Health in their investigations, and we have

done that in two ways. Our water resources people have been working with them,

and also our wildlife people, because of the suggestion that it is wildlife that

is at fault.

The organism that is causing the problem here is

actually a cyst called giardia, and it is referred to commonly as beaver fever,

which leads people to then jump to the conclusions that it is beavers but, in

fact, can come from any animal - muskrats or, indeed, humans as well. So, as I

said, our water resources people, our civil and sanitary people, and our

wildlife people have been working with the Department of Health and with the

Corner Brook authorities to try to identify, first of all, where the problem

originates, what can be done about it, and to take whatever measures might be

necessary - like if it is suggested, perhaps removing some of the animals might

be something that could be done. So we are co-operating with those kinds of

efforts as best we can.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Fleming.

I will just ask now if any of the government

members have any questions.

MR. CRANE: Before asking any questions, I am

very surprised about some of the questioning, certainly some of the critical -

especially from Mr. Warren asking what you are going to do about containers that

have been down in Rigolet for seven or eight years. As he said that, I wondered

what in the world happened? They have been there so long, why have they not done

something about it?

In the meantime, Long Harbour, I would never ask

you a question about Long Harbour, I don't think, had Ms. Verge not brought it

up, but I am going to ask you now.

I look at Mr. Jeans and he says, yes, you know all

about Long Harbour. We know enough about it, Dave, don't we?

Anyhow, I am going to ask you one question. Are you

getting any flak on Long Harbour from the public at large? Is your department

getting any flak as to why the government is entertaining even - you are?

MS. COWAN: In a lot, yes. Most of the letters

go to the Premier's office, but I am kept abreast of the letters that are going

in. Most people are questioning. I have noticed somewhat of a change in the last

few days in letters to the editor and that type of thing, saying, well, perhaps

it is appropriate to have a look at it; but it is, indeed, something that is not

popular with the public. That is not surprising. We find it difficult, even

within the Province, and they do everywhere in North America, to even come up

with a waste disposal site in the traditional manner that is acceptable to

people within the population. So it doesn't surprise me.

AN HON. MEMBER: Anybody who has been to Robin

Hood Bay knows why.

MR. CRANE: Supposing it came to an

environmental study, would the provincial government have the last say on that,

or the federal government?

MS. COWAN: No, the federal government is not

involved in this particular assessment - or are they?

AN HON. MEMBER: I think they would be.

MS. COWAN: Okay, they will be. We have new

legislation now that we are just looking at. The government has a new

environmental assessment act which we are just looking at, how it dovetails into

the provincial assessment act. Actually, we are going to have to take a good

hard look at our provincial assessment act so that we don't have a lot of

overlapping areas and that type of thing, so the feds would be involved.

MR. CRANE: So, both of them would have to give

an okay, right?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. CRANE: I can understand the people out at

Long Harbour council accepting it, because I suppose it can't be any worse than

what was there, anyhow. They can burn what they like there and it wouldn't be

any worse than the phosphorus industry.

Talking about wildlife officers, as you went on

with your prelude, a couple of years ago, maybe last year, they were complaining

the government was sending them into the wooded areas one by one, single file,

with no weapons and they were clamouring for guns at that time. What ever became

of that, Ms. Cowan?

MS. COWAN: We addressed that issue in this

year's Budget. We have set aside $778,000 -

AN HON. MEMBER: $738,000 is the total.

MS. COWAN: - $738,000 is the total. I am just

double-checking that because this morning I mentioned on the radio that it was

$78,000, which was really cost-effective when it came to hiring a number of new

employees.

So one of the things that money will be used for is

to add an extra person so that the wildlife officers go off into the woods in

twos. We are trying to find women as well as men to balance that, which I think

is very appropriate, to be wildlife officers. Two people will be hired to be

there at the peak of the hunting season when there is the most pressure on these

individuals.

I think it was something long overdue. I was amazed

when I heard it, but I double-checked the stats, that our wildlife officers have

had more assaults on them - now, they don't have a lot - but more than any other

place in North America. So, indeed, their cry for a partner when they are out on

the beat -

MR. CRANE: So they are happier with that, then?

MS. COWAN: Oh, yes, very happy. We are also

providing them - and I did mention that in my

preamble - with increased ability

to communicate, so that if someone breaks a leg out in the middle of the forest,

or whatever, they can radio back for help. We'll get better equipment,

snowmobiles, that type of thing, to make their job more effective and more -

just better working conditions, I guess it boils down to.

MR. CRANE: One complaint I get a lot of, people

are starting up small businesses and they have to get an environmental

assessment done. It seems to be a never-ending project to get the answer. The

business might be just a small business, a one-, two- or three-man business. But

to get an environmental study done it seems to take weeks and weeks. Is there

any way your department can hope to speed up that on small businesses? Because

it does affect people who are looking to borrow money.

I have two people right now going into a two-man

business. I think they are going to get the okay because everything seems okay

there where they are going. But it is going to take them, say, weeks to get an

assessment done, right? Those are not the only people. I've had some other

people who have had the same problem. Is there any way - I know you have to do

studies and I know sometimes it takes a lot of time, but is there any way you

can speed that up in your department?

MS. COWAN: This is another area in which we are

putting some money, John, in order to - is it alright if I say "John"? I always

tend to get more informal in these sessions.

MR. CRANE: Oh gosh, you can call me anything.

I've been called worse than that.

MS. COWAN: You're not the first one to bring

that to our attention. I'm sure there have been many complaints over the years

about that. Where we are concerned with development in the Province that is one

of the areas in which we are putting some extra people this year. Because it has

been government's fault.

Now, some of it the delays are built into the

system. They are not delays, they are built into the legislation.

MR. CRANE: Yes, I know.

MS. COWAN: But others have been - we have had

to occasionally go to the proponent, the person who wants the okay, and say, you

know, 'We just haven't had the personnel to put on this job. Do you mind if we

delay it a bit?' We realize that is a very unfortunate thing to do. We will put

additional personnel this year and hopefully that will do the trick. If it

doesn't we will have to look at putting more people in place.

MR. CRANE: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. Mr. Penney, are you

interested in having a few words?

MR. PENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Minister, I would first of all like to

comment on some of the comments made by the other members of the Committee when

they expressed the importance of your department. Mr. Warren said the department

was too big. I can't agree with that, but I will agree with his assessment that

it is probably one of the most important departments in government. I think this

is probably the time that we have the most environmentally aware people who have

ever lived in this Province.

You don't have to go back very far before you can

recall that garbage was just thrown indiscriminately onto the beaches, wrecks

were thrown into the woods, anything that was aboard a boat could be just thrown

overboard. It didn't matter, as long as it was out of sight, it was out mind,

and everything was okay. Fortunately, I think we have come to realize that we

can't do that. A visitor to our Province three or four years ago marvelled at

the clarity of the water that he saw, and the colour. He came from -

MS. COWAN: Inland water or -

MR. PENNEY: Both. I had taken him inland and I

had taken him out in boat, and he was absolutely amazed at just how clean and

fresh everything was. I think finally Newfoundlanders are becoming aware of just

what they have and they want to see it protected.

I am encouraged to see the changes that have taken

place within the department within the last few years. It is encouraging to see

that individuals are actually being charged for having car wrecks thrown into

the woods, garbage just thrown indiscriminately along the sides of woods roads.

People are being charged for that and that is very encouraging.

As well, there was a project started by your

department - correct me if I'm wrong - I believe it was started last year: the

Stop Trashing Our Province, the STOP program. I watched with great enthusiasm as

a member of your staff, Mr. Mahoney, came out to central Newfoundland and talked

to students, to development groups, to any group interested in participating in

the clean-up. It was just absolutely amazing. The enthusiasm was almost

contagious.

Now, Madam Minister, I'm hoping that program is

still ongoing, and I ask that in the form of a question. If it is, will there be

any changes to it? Will there be any more money put into it, or will there be

any changes to the existing program? I will let you answer that before I go on

to the next question.

MS. COWAN: First of all, I must say, Mr. Chair,

that Mr. Mahoney is - we are constantly getting letters and the Premier is

getting letters as well from this particular gentleman because he is so

motivating when he speaks about the importance of our interaction with the

environment as humans, and the importance of protecting the environment. So

anybody who hasn't heard him speak, if you need a speaker, he is an excellent

person.

One of the things, just a bit of an aside, that I

really enjoy about the Department of Environment is the fact that the people who

work there have this really tremendous commitment to the environment, and it is

really exciting to see that kind of thing. I would say he is sort of an example

par excellence really.

The STOP program never got off the ground to the

extent that we would like it. The work that Mr. Mahoney did, for example, was

really not within the scope of his particular job assignment. He does this quite

frequently just on his own free time, he is so committed.

What we are going to do now with these new monies

that have been allocated for staff is to have a permanent position for an

individual who will interact with community groups and promote the STOP program.

We find that we have all kinds of people out there. Every group seems to want an

environmental project, and we just have not had the people available within the

department to work with those groups, to plug them into Canadian networks, to

tell them where they can get money from different - you know the Environmental

Partners' Fund and that kind of thing. There are sources of money out there that

you can avail of once you get into environmental projects. So we are looking now

to hire someone who can, indeed, make that sort of the focus of his or her job

or position.

MR. PENNEY: I have to agree with your

assessment of Mr. Mahoney. I have known Shane Mahoney for many years and he is

quite the speaker, most articulate and entertaining. I am pleased to see that

there will be somebody hired full-time to look after this program.

Some time ago the federal government introduced

what they called the Green Plan. My understanding was that it was designed to

make sure that we had some standard environmental regulations in all of the ten

provinces. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to follow the Green Plan, or the

changes to it, as closely as I would like. What is Newfoundland's position as it

relates to the proposals of the federal government under the caption 'Green

Plan'? Do we have a problem with it or are we supportive of what they are

recommending?

MS. COWAN: First of all, I have a dandy little

brochure. Actually, I should see that it is distributed to all the members of

the House of Assembly - maybe, John, if you would just make a note of that. It

tells about where the Green Plan is at this particular time, and gives some

information on its long-term objectives - readable little thing.

We have not seen a lot of Green Plan money yet in

this Province, which concerns me. There is Green Plan money designated for this

Province. As yet we haven't seen that money coming about. For example, there is

supposed to be some money put into the St. John's harbour and the clean-up

there. John, you might like to elaborate further on that.

MR. FLEMING: Well, the only actual projects we

have seen so far have been under what is called the ACAP program, which is

Atlantic Coastal Action Program. It provides money for studies of areas,

estuaries and harbours that perhaps are in need of clean-up. The two areas in

Newfoundland that have been designated so far for the spending of some of this

money are Corner Brook and St. John's.

In Corner Brook there is a committee already set up

and they, I think, have either accessed or are about to actually access some

funds under the Green Plan.

In St. John's there are still discussions under

way.

There are proposals in to the federal government

from a variety of both provincial and private agencies for projects under the

Green Plan. One the minister mentioned earlier was the proposal for a model

forest in the Little Grand Lake area. That has gone forward. Proposals have gone

forward with respect to environmental education. I am just trying to recall some

of the - there is quite a variety in any case.

AN HON. MEMBER: Sustainable agriculture.

MR. FLEMING: Yes. These are all being worked

on, but the monies have been slow to flow from the federal coffers because of

the process they have to go through with their Treasury Board and so forth.

MS. COWAN: One of the things I would like to

see - not only would developing some of these Green Plan projects be very, very

good for the environmental situation in the Province, they would also provide us

with some much needed jobs. So there will be considerable pressure, I would

expect, over the next little time from government to get some of these projects

under way. The model forest, for example, is one of my favourites. That would

provide employment for a significant number of people and, at the same time, be

a marvellous project.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penney, we will be breaking

at 8:30 p.m. for a coffee break in the common room. So if you have another

question, rather than getting into another line of questioning with another

member, maybe if you could just -

MR. PENNEY: No, I would like to use the next

couple of minutes for another question. I am sure if we are a minute late

breaking nobody will mind.

Madam Minister, the words "sustainable development"

are a couple of words that have become almost buzzwords in the last few years.

We recognise that as badly as Newfoundland and some of the other provinces in

Canada need development, need any kind of a project that will stimulate

employment, stimulate the economy, we can only do it in a manner that is

environmentally acceptable. It was already mentioned about the proposed garbage

incineration at Long Harbour. But we have a process already in place that allows

for us to do a thorough assessment of those kinds of projects - don't we? - to

ensure that it will not be undertaken in a manner that is not totally acceptable

environmentally.

MS. COWAN: Exactly.

MR. PENNEY: Could you explain to me just how

extensive the review is with those kinds of projects? What are the criteria?

What kinds of things are considered? Certainly it is not just direct

environmental damage to the habitat. What other departments of government are

involved in this study?

MS. COWAN: Oh, goodness, there is a whole group

of people who are involved with the department. The federal departments -

Fisheries and Oceans, for example, is involved, Forestry, Agriculture.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, I recognise the

extent of the answer to that. Do you want to break and let the minister answer

it after she comes back?

MR. CHAIRMAN: It would be fairly extensive so

if we could reconvene with just a detailed explanation of the environmental

assessment process.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If that is okay with all the

Committee members? Alright. We will take a break and we will reconvene at 8:50

p.m., ten minutes to nine.

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I call the meeting of the Social Services Estimates

Committee back to order.

Mr. Penney was questioning the minister about the

environmental assessment process. Mr. Penney did use up the bulk of his time. I

will allow the minister to answer and then we will turn it over to another

questioner.

Minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

First of all, you probably all know that any new

business, industry, whatever, has to register with our department before it can

undertake the building of its project. In the registration form, they have to

provide a fair amount of detail as to what environmental problems they see might

arise. They have to give remediation, how they would deal with those particular

environmental problems. They have to let us know what sort of equipment they

will be using, all that kind of thing, so that we can look at it from an

environmental point of view, not just taking their word.

Once that is registered with us there is a

forty-five-day period in which a whole range of government agencies have a look

at the project and, as well, as any public input can be brought forth. Every

Monday morning there is a release to all the papers in the Province with what

projects have registered so that individuals will know. We are quite rigid about

the government departments, both feds and provincial, getting their assessments

of the situation back within a thirty-day period. The public we are a little

more lenient with. We want public involvement, we want it through the whole

process, so we try to encourage that.

After that is all in, I have fifteen days to decide

what to do with it. Now, I can clear it, and the majority of projects are

cleared. They are usually small projects that don't have a tremendous impact on

the environment. Sometimes they are cleared with the understanding that the

company or the little business will do certain things and we will monitor it or

whatever, or that we will keep a particular watch on how it impacts on wildlife

in the area or whatever.

Speaking of wildlife, that reminds me. When we do the

environmental assessments, we don't just look at the impact on the environment.

It is an opportunity for Municipal Affairs to see if the road structures going

into that community are adequate, and a number of other departments will look at

the social aspects, as well, which is important, and it is a good opportunity to

do that.

As I said, I either clear it at the end of this

forty-five day period or it goes into an environmental preview - no, an

environmental -

AN HON. MEMBER: Preview report.

MS. COWAN: Preview report, that's right, and/or an

EIS. Now, that is the long one. The preview report is usually what people hope

they are going to get if they don't get cleared altogether. Now, if you are

going to have the preview report or the full environmental impact statement,

first of all, we establish a committee. The makeup of the committee depends on

the project. Some of the people who would normally be involved may say: This

isn't a particular concern to us at this time, and they wouldn't sit on the

committee. The terms of reference are established and then the committee sets to

work. Public input is still invited and encouraged all along.

I'm not sure, right off the top of my head, the actual

number of days, it is all legislated time frames, or when there is reporting

back and so on by the proponent, by government. Those time frames can be

extended with mutual consent of both the proponent and the committee that is

involved in it.

If we go through the Environmental Impact Statement it

comes to me and I have to have a good look at it. I sign it saying that: yes, I

would agree that these are the positives and these are the negative, but I don't

approve the project. It then goes to Cabinet and Cabinet can clear it if they

want or they can say no, or they can say: This is a very complicated thing, it

requires more hearings, and go through that particular hearing process.

That is it in about a nutshell, I guess.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's good. It is good to have a

better understanding of that. There is only one member over there who hasn't

spoken. Are you interested in having a few words now, Mr. Oldford?

MR. OLDFORD: I think I'll pass this time. I think

Mr. Warren is -

AN HON. MEMBER: Chomping at the bit.

MS. COWAN: Chomping at the bit?

MR. OLDFORD: - needs some extra time. He's

chomping at the bit. So I will give him my turn this time around and maybe I

will pick it up the next time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Warren.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

MS. COWAN: You notice he's taken his jacket off,

Chairperson. That indicates that we're getting really down into the nitty-gritty

heavy stuff now.

AN HON. MEMBER: We're in for a fight now.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I

just say to the minister that I'm ready for a long night -

MS. COWAN: Are you? Good.

MR. WARREN: - and hopefully we will probably get

through tonight. If not, I would be willing to come back again. I have so many

questions, so maybe if the minister likes, I will just ask her short questions

and she can give me an answer.

MS. COWAN: We will just go back and forth?

MR. WARREN: Yes, if you would like to. In

particular, from the question that my colleague for Lewisporte just asked and

you went down through the process, could you advise us if the forty-five days

have elapsed regarding the request from a company to develop a small dam on the

Pipers Hole River? Isn't that pretty well forty-five days ago by now on that

one?

MS. COWAN: No. We are not sure if it has been

called or not, Mr. Warren. I will make a note of it, so I will let you know.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much. Madam Minister,

in a provincial park, in fact in the Butterpot Park, to be exact, there was a

serious accident last year to one of your employees, who was on the tailgate of

a vehicle - severe damage - a young person who is probably recuperating now, I

guess, one of your constituents by the way -

MS. COWAN: Yes, I was going to say.

MR. WARREN: - and a good friend of mine, too, over

the years. Has there been any compensation from government?

MS. COWAN: I am not sure of the answer to that

question. John?

MR. FLEMING: Not that I am aware of at this stage.

MS. COWAN: What were you thinking of compensation,

in terms of? Has there been a lawsuit?

MR. WARREN: Well, I am just basically asking a

question. I guess it could be a number of years before this young person could

get back to work.

MS. COWAN: Actually, he is going to be working in

parks again this summer. He is well enough to -

MR. WARREN: Yes, but he is still recovering. But

there has been no legal action taken, I understand.

MS. COWAN: No. My understanding from chatting with

his father shortly after the accident happened, in the months that followed - he

is also involved with the Provincial Library Board and we chat quite frequently

about the libraries facilities in CBS so I saw him a lot last summer, and they,

I think at that point, felt it was an unavoidable accident; it was just one of

those really unfortunate things that happen from time to time and nobody was at

fault.

MR. WARREN: Okay. The minister mentioned earlier,

when my colleague from Humber East was asking questions pertaining to Long

Harbour, about the clean-up from Albright and Wilson. I think the Premier

probably answered it in the House a few days ago when he said this - I

interpreted his comments to mean that it is going to take quite a lot of money

and this company needs this project, the U.S. garbage, to get money to clean up

the rest of the mess, sort of thing, and the minister said well, you can take

action in penalizing. Has the minister considered taking any action against

BRINCO and I will go back to Kitts-Michelin again. With regard to the mess that

has been left on the Labrador Coast, between Postville and Makkovik, I would

like the minister to tell me and probably the deputy can tell me, what action

they have taken or if they have taken any action at all against this particular

company that government, in 1981, told to cease operations. At the same time, I

probably should say to my colleague for Harbour Grace, that he doesn't know his

geography very well because I did not mention Rigolet at all and he came back

and said something about Rigolet. But I would like the deputy minister to tell

us whether they are planning to take any action or, are they determined to get

this company to clean up this mess?

MS. COWAN: Actually, there is a clean-up going to

take place this summer.

MR. WARREN: How much will it cost?

MS. COWAN: Pardon?

MR. WARREN: And who is going to pay for it?

MS. COWAN: Who is going to pay for it?

AN HON. MEMBER: The company will pay for it.

MR. WARREN: If you don't mind, deputy minister,

could you tell me what is happening?

MR. JEANS: David Jeans, Mr. Chairman.

We are just in the early discussion stages with the

company which is going to do a clean-up this summer. In terms of what it is

going to cost, we don't know that at this stage, but it certainly is not going

to cost the government money, it is going to cost the company money. We are in

the very preliminary stages of discussion and that work will hopefully be

finished up this summer.

MR. WARREN: I will continue, if you don't mind,

unless someone else has some questions because I have a lot of questions I can

ask the minister.

MS. COWAN: Go ahead, sure.

AN HON. MEMBER: Enjoy yourself.

MR. WARREN: Well, they are serious questions and I

enjoy the answers I am getting. In fact, some of the answers are

straightforward, and maybe the minister may prove me wrong, the department may

not be too big for her, you know.

MS. COWAN: My goodness, he has gone mad! Well, I

could say one thing for it and I am sure that you felt the same way when you

were there. It is a department where you can really get a sense of coming to

grips with things in doing something, which is good.

MR. WARREN: It is interesting. Madam Minister, you

mentioned, I think you called it the WERAC committee.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: You said that they make

recommendations to your department. Am I to believe they have not met for some -

unless they met within the last week or so, they haven't for a considerable

length of time and the reason they haven't is that there is not a quorum?

MS. COWAN: The reason they haven't met is actually

that I have to name a new committee and I think you will be pleased, Mr. Warren,

as to why I do not have that new committee named. I wanted more people on it

from Labrador. Because we are going to be looking very much into establishing

reserves in the Labrador area, I thought it only appropriate that Labrador be

well represented. And, certainly, if you have any suggestions for me of people

whom you think would be interested in sitting on the committee, I would be glad

to receive them. I am finding that the problem is, we have to be sure that the

access to the Island is going to be there. Apparently, experience in the past is

that people have been really excited and keen about being on it and then have

found it difficult to get here. So we are trying to reconcile, you know, make

sure there is a way of getting here so that they can participate and give us the

full benefit of their knowledge and a really good representation from that part

of the Province.

MR. WARREN: I thank the minister for her answer. I

am sure that I can give her some suggestions and I will likewise take her up on

her offer. There is a concern in our Province, anywhere I guess, I would think

even in the central part of our Island; it is an international problem - and I

don't know if the minister or her officials have looked at how we are going to

deal with it, that is the abundance of gulls, which is causing an environmental

problem, and I think we have to be serious. It is a serious, serious problem and

I know that during my brief time in the ministry, that of my predecessors before

me and maybe your predecessor, there has been a lot of discussion, but almost as

if we do not know what to do, and I would just like someone to come up with a

solution. You know, I put out my garbage on Friday mornings and by the time I

get my breakfast there are fifty or sixty gulls. It must be good garbage, I

suppose.

MS. COWAN: I was going to say maybe that is one of

the answers to our waste management, is it, to encourage gulls?

MR. WARREN: Well, what about Grand Falls? There

are gulls 200 to 300 miles inland, and on the Labrador Coast it is the same.

Last August, a lady was out berry picking on the Southern Shore and the gulls

practically came down and started tearing at her, you know. It has come to the

point where it is more than a nuisance, it is sort of dangerous, and I was just

wondering if the minister has any solutions.

MS. COWAN: No. I don't want to make light of it,

but it sounds like Alfred Hitchcock. But I am not making light of the problem. I

am not aware of the problem. I could, I suppose, shuffle it off and say gulls

are a federal responsibility, but I don't know if my officials -

AN HON. MEMBER: And they are.

MS. COWAN: They are. Oh yes, they are a federal

responsibility.

MR. WARREN: That is right; exactly, you know.

MS. COWAN: But certainly if there were a problem

it would not be inappropriate for us to bring it to the feds attention. Have we

had any input from the public?

MR. JEANS: Minister, Mr. Chairman, I will comment

because recently I was attending a meeting at which a member of The Canadian

Wildlife Service raised this very issue; of course, gulls are a protected

species, so they cannot, or are unwilling to, have a cull. But it is a severe

problem, especially near airports and near reservoirs because of the dropping of

their faeces and so on. Near garbage dumps they feed on the dumps and then they

go and sit on your water supply, which isn't very encouraging.

Basically, the message is to municipalities to try to

get them to cover their garbage regularly so that they don't contribute to their

breeding by providing a continuous food source.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to

interject just for a couple of seconds. I can appreciate the concern raised by

Mr. Warren, recognizing that the creatures are, in fact, a protected species.

I think the bulk of the concern is that they do, in

fact, get at the garbage bags and they leave a mess out around the driveway. I

have been informed only a couple of days ago that if you spray the garbage bags

with just regular household ammonia, the gulls will not come near them.

MR. WARREN: Oh, yes. That is common knowledge.

MR. PENNEY: I think that would alleviate the bulk

of the concern, and maybe we should start educating householders to that effect.

MR. CRANE: What about if, as Garfield said, they

attacked the woman. What are you going to do, spray her with ammonia, as well?

MR. WARREN: Naturally, it is a laughing matter to

a certain degree, but it is a very serious matter. As Mr. Jeans just said, this

same bird that is down in Robin Hood Bay is also sitting in Windsor Lake, or in

Bay Bulls Big Pond. It is a matter that - maybe Mr. Jeans is going to at least

express the concerns at his next wildlife federal meeting.

It is too serious for us to ignore, and that is why I

brought it up.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: I have more questions but someone else

may have some, so I will wait for other questions.

MR. CRANE: Go ahead.

MR. WARREN: No, Ms. Verge may have something.

MR. CRANE: Give it to Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: There has been much said in the

Province over the past few years about the damage that is being done to our

landscape by ATVs. ATVs are a relatively recent phenomenon, but they have taken

over the place. Obviously, ATVs riding around wetlands and bogs, especially in

the summer when the snow cover is gone, leave long-lasting scars. You can see

the damage fairly clearly from the air.

I was pleased to see the government announce in The

Throne Speech this spring an intention to restrict the use of ATVs in - I forget

the phrase - I believe it was sensitive areas, or wetlands, was it?

MS. COWAN: Sensitive wetlands - is that how it was

phrased? Anyway, it is bogs and wetlands.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Well, the snow is going now. Here

it is the middle of May and already the snow is going. What restrictions will be

in place for this summer to prevent more damage to the bogs and the wetlands and

the landscape that is so susceptible to marring by ATVs in the summertime?

MS. COWAN: I doubt, in all honesty, I have to say,

that there will be anything ready for this summer. We have a very committed

person in our department, again, who is working on this particular aspect. It

has turned out that it is not quite as easy as first indicated because there is

such a variety of types of wetlands and the information is not readily available

on where these wetlands are throughout the Province. We do not have an entire

map showing that, however we have clarified a number of these issues over the

last month or so and as far as I understand she is quite into the whole thing

now. I doubt it will be ready for this Summer. Do you think, John, there is any

hope it will be?

MR. FLEMING: It is possible. We are giving it a

good try but as you get into these things they become more complicated, as you

start to draft the regulations and so forth.

MS. VERGE: I know we have an immense territory

and I can see it would take a considerable amount of time and work to

identify all the sensitive lands throughout the whole land mass of Newfoundland

and Labrador but would you consider approaching it in phases and going with what

you know about first? For example, if your knowledge of the Avalon region is

fairly complete now would you consider going with regulations for the use of

ATVs on the Avalon, beyond what we have already with the wilderness area this

Summer? Or if you know about the area between say Bay of Islands, Grand Lake and

the Lewis Hills then have regulations for that area this Summer.

MS. COWAN: There is a map that would provide the

minister with the ability to create any land and call it a reserve and prohibit

that type of activity. I think the way we are moving now we can probably phase

the whole thing in fairly quickly. I do not know whether it would be this Summer

but we would certainly like to see it this Summer. You fly back and forth all

the time so you know what it is like in that dreadful fanning out effect to

where the whole bog is just totally ruts. In some of them it will take thousands

of years to get back to normal, so it is a difficult problem. There were some

problems in the beginning just defining how we were going to do that but we now

have that defined and I do not think, unless it comes to my attention in the

next little while and it well could, that there is this area that is extremely

vulnerable and we have to do something about it immediately. If that is the case

then we could move in that direction but I would prefer to bring it in all at

once if the lapse in time is not too great because it does not treat anybody

differently in one part of the Province than the other.

MS. VERGE: With all due respect that is what

several Ministers of Social Services have been saying about the Child Welfare

Act. They want to have a grand design for a whole new act but in the meantime

there is a still a gap for young people between the ages of sixteen and

eighteen, there is still not an enforceable reporting requirement. While we are

waiting for this masterpiece of a revised Child Welfare Act children are falling

between the cracks. In the case of the environment, instead of waiting however

long it will take, which will probably be years, before a map is made of the

whole Province -

MS. COWAN: Oh, no we are not going to do that. We

do not need to do that now. We have clarified it but that was a bit of a problem

in the beginning because we just were not quite clear on the Cabinet directive,

but we have that sorted out now so I do not think we need to worry about maps

and things. When it started in the beginning it presented a bit of a problem for

the person who was involved with that and when she clarified the thing with me I

think she is off and running with it. That is all I can say at this stage.

MS. VERGE: But the Summer, the season upon us is

the time of risk so can we not do something for this Summer? Something is better

than nothing, especially if you start in the populated areas, in the media

centres. Presumably the people who have been running around the bogs in the ATVs

have not realized the damage they are doing.

MS. COWAN: They probably have not realized the

damage. It is certainly an idea worth exploring and I think we could certainly

look into it and see what problems there could be. Obviously there could be

benefits. There is no doubt about it. You know, I am quite willing to give that

a look.

MS. VERGE: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I was just wondering on that matter

- with the committee's leave if I might just ask a question. In consideration of

that is there any thought of the idea of using the wildlife oriented

individuals. We know of people in our own communities throughout the Province

who are enthusiasts for wildlife activities and who also are probably the

leading environmentalists. One of note might be our hon. member for Lewisporte

who is very keen on environmental issues and of utilizing people in the given

areas as part of the overall process and approach to enforcing such regulations

through deputizing or something along those lines.

MS. COWAN: You are not the first person who has

brought that to my attention, but I was quick to remind him of the high rate of

assault that wildlife officers have experienced in our Province, and they might

not want to expose themselves to that kind of physical damage. We have looked at

how we will enforce this because obviously there is no point in having

legislation if you can't enforce it.

We have looked at models, how the police enforce

particular traffic violations and that kind of thing. Well they might have seat

belt month or something like that, you know, when they crack down on seat belts,

there is advertising done on seat belts, that is an approach that we certainly

could take. During a certain time frame during the year our wildlife officers

could be directed to make this their prime concern, and to monitor to see if

people are using the bogs, to make sure that people who have summer places in

remote areas or have built a proper road or have found another way using a

mineral road or whatever would be appropriate and not damaging the environment.

We are looking at that as well.

I would be a little nervous because some people take

that role now because they are so concerned and they have a social conscience

about the environment, but I don't know if I would go out and encourage it.

Although interestingly enough, I thought that there would be a number of people

upset about this legislation, the people who do go in and just drive everywhere.

But so far I have had one representation from one group which I could understand

because they live in an area that is pretty well all bog, so they are afraid

that they are just going to be totally eliminated from using their ATVs if they

don't have any other place to use them. It seems to date to be very well

accepted, so that is positive, but at the same time getting back to your

question, I think that it would be a bit risky.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I suppose some adaptation of that

kind of thing may work and may be sustainable.

MS. COWAN: Maybe over the years, you know, once it

becomes more of an accepted practice.

MS. VERGE: I have another question that I ask

every year. In the last election campaign three years ago the PC party advanced

the idea of a Newfoundland Ranger Force which was conceived as an integrated

enforcement group integrating environment enforcement, forestry enforcement,

wildlife enforcement, and inland fisheries enforcement which would have to be

transferred from the federal government.

The other day I was reading through the file I have

labelled 'Liberal Propaganda' and I discovered that the Liberal party in the

last election promised a Conservation Corp, which is the same idea. This

administration has a fixation on amalgamation, whether it is municipal or

(inaudible), why doesn't the government implement that campaign idea of a

Conservation Corp and amalgamate the enforcement people for environment,

wildlife, forestry? Perhaps the overall productivity would be greater than with

the current fragmented approach?

MS. COWAN: Yes. Actually, I will let John respond

to that because it was done before I came into the Ministry. But there was a

really good hard look taken at that, I believe by Treasury Board, was it? Or who

looked into it?

MR. FLEMING: One of the things that we asked to be

looked at was the idea of integrated enforcement within the Department. That

would have been for Environment, Wildlife, Lands and Parks, not Forestry. The

idea was to create a dedicated enforcement unit. What we decided after the

analysis was that there were more negatives than positives in doing that. For

example, if you were to take all the Wildlife people - the current Wildlife

people, who constitutes by and large the majority of our enforcement people -

and try and devote them to other things, you would in fact be losing a lot by

taking them away from the wildlife and management functions that they also

perform.

So the direction that we are moving instead is rather

than forming a dedicated enforcement unit is to move towards a classification

which we are, at the moment, for discussion purposes, calling a conservation

officer type of classification. Which would see more commonality between the

various kinds of enforcement officers and technicians that we have and at the

same time move to more coordinated enforcement throughout the Department.

It may be that this would move over time, if we move

in this direction, to even greater amalgamation, I guess, if you can look at it,

or commonality between the various units of the Department. We would like to see

that develop over time and just see how things work. Go one step at a time, if

you will.

MS. VERGE: Not the Eric Gullage approach.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) slowly.

MS. VERGE: Okay, what else do I have here? Oh,

Crown lands. Every few months I check on the status of the railway lands which

are supposed to be transferred from the federal government to the Province,

excepting whatever the feds want to keep for federal purposes. It is always next

month or soon, but it still has not happened. When I last checked it was

supposed to be the end of February, this year. What is going on with that

transfer and what does the Province propose to do with the railway lands? In

particular, the railway bed.

MS. COWAN: Okay. The answer to the first part of

the question is we have done our work at this end, although we should probably

start putting some pressure on the federal officials. The Premier and I have

both signed the documents which are necessary at this end. What we are waiting

for now are the federal people, the federal ministers involved, to sign. I am

not aware - like you I do ask frequently, but I have not asked in the last

couple of weeks to find out what the holdup is. Perhaps we should be putting a

little pressure on.

MR. FLEMING: The main problem is a technical

problem, and that is that all the lands involved have to be described and

included in the agreement. There has emerged much more problem with respect to

little bits and pieces of lands and the descriptions of those. That is pretty

well on the federal side. I think most of that is cleared up now and the thing

should be signed pretty soon.

MS. VERGE: Okay. This was provided for in the

so-called Roads-for-Rails agreement a few years back. To my surprise I

discovered that CN is still billing people for leases. In particular, CN in

Moncton has been sending bills to cabin owners in the Humber Valley - I presume

all across the Province - for rent for railway crossings. The railway does not

exist any more. There is no railway crossing. The land is supposed to belong to

the Province, but CN is still billing people. I have protested and copied Bob

Winsor and Geri Lutz in Intergovernmental Affairs. Has the Province spoken to

the federal government and asked them to knock off?

MS. COWAN: I will turn that over to John, who has

been sitting there quietly waiting for a question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, well after you answer, Mr.

Power, we will turn it over to Mr. Harris then Ms. Verge. He is getting a bit

impatient there, squirming around in his seat.

MR. POWER: We have spoken to the federal officials

about the invoicing of persons who had agreements, be they crossing agreements

or ownership agreements, about the invoicing, but they have been hesitant to

turn it over to us because of the liability questions involved and because the

ownership is still with the federal government. We have been assured by the CN

people that once the Province does get ownership, and that may be tomorrow or

maybe the next day, that all of the accounts will be turned over to the

Province.

MS. VERGE: And what is the Province going to do

with them?

MR. POWER: We are still working on it.

MS. VERGE: I will have to ask the minister that.

Evidently when the feds turn over the land to the Province the feds will, at the

same time, turn over their accounts. The feds, or CN, or Terra Transport, have

leases with various people for people's use of railway land; for example the

cabin owners who have agreements providing for using railway crossings which

obligate these individual citizens to pay money to the federal government. My

argument is that the people are not getting anything any more, and I am asking

what the Province is going to do with the accounts? Will the Province forgive

people for rent for railway crossings since The Roads for Rails Agreement -

since we lost our railway?

Actually, I have a constituent who is a very

conscientious senior citizen who when asked - actually at the time of the

agreement to close the railway, wrote a letter to CN asking if she would still

have to pay; saying she did not think she would have to. Three years went by and

she did not hear anything. Finally she got a reply saying: Yes you have to pay,

and now you owe us three years' worth, and she paid. She wrote them a letter

then saying: This is the last time I am paying. Then they have the gall to send

her another bill for last year. I wrote her reply this time, saying that they

had ripped her off the previous year and I had advised her not to pay any more

for the following reasons, and sent a copy to Bob Winsor in your department.

MS. COWAN: So your question to me was, what are we

going to do?

MS. VERGE: Question number one, when you get the

land and the accounts, will you forgive all these poor people their payments for

railway crossings, since there are no more railway crossings and have not been

for years - a couple of years; and will you refund my constituent the money that

she has paid?

MS. COWAN: How much did she pay?

MS. VERGE: It was only about $100, but still she

can use it more than CN.

MS. COWAN: That is right. It is not a problem of

which I have been aware. It is certainly something that we are going to have to

look into. I did not realize that people were paying that money out to the

federal government, and it will be something that will be in our ball park. Are

you familiar with that particular issue, Bob?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, I am familiar with that, if

you want me to...

MS. COWAN: Yes, sure. Go ahead and make a comment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Power.

MR. POWER: The department, or government, does

have a project team that is dealing with this very issue. There are some 2,300

third party agreements between CN and private individuals, and all of those

agreements are being reviewed individually. I do not think the Province will be

as tough. They can take some liberty on that. I do not think they would be as

tough as CN in terms of collecting for the back use. I do not think we could

legally collect it.

MS. VERGE: Would you entertain a request for a

refund?

MS. COWAN: We will think about that one, okay?

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MS. COWAN: Spoken as a good MHA.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have no objections to the Member for Humber East

being quite lengthy in her questions and taking up lots of time, as long as I am

given an equal amount of time to deal with questions if I need it. I want to ask

the minister about recycling.

Now the Member for Humber East asked a question which

was asked last year but through the former minister, and I think we had a

similar answer. I have just received some information indicating that the

Government of Ontario has just had signed into law, a Waste Management Act which

brings about some changes in the Ontario recycling programs -

MS. COWAN: Now is this just for government, Mr.

Harris, or for the Province, to which you are referring?

MR. HARRIS: Well, let me finish.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. HARRIS: - as a result of which, recycling

programs would be expanded to include 90 per cent of Ontario's households. Many

businesses must now conduct waste audits and recycling must be expanded to the

industrial/commercial institutional sectors. Now, this is for the whole Province

of Ontario, not just the government or not just a government building and I am

not suggesting that this is to the credit of the NDP, they have only been in a

year, obviously this has probably been on the go by the former Liberal

Government of Ontario so we do not take credit for everything that goes on in

Ontario, even though many things are good.

Last year, we talked to the former minister and we

just talked about this building, the Confederation Building, East and West; can

we not set an example, can we not have a project, what is the problem, is Mr.

Fleming the problem, is he holding it up, is the Premier holding it up, is it

the Minister of Works Services and Transportation. Who is it, who is holding

this up? Are you holding it up?

Somebody is preventing this from happening and I am

not suggesting that we can, in an instant or in a year say that 90 per cent of

the households in Newfoundland in the far-flung reaches of everywhere are going

to be affected by a government sponsored recycling program or government

mandated program, but surely within the precincts of the government offices,

without the one or two years that the minister has talked about; last year's

minister I think was predicting and I stand to be corrected, he was talking

about six months; now the minister is talking about a year or two, hopefully,

maybe we can do something.

Now I think that is unacceptable; I think that most

people would regard that as unacceptable. Maybe a totally comprehensive program

where nothing would be used that was not recycled might be a difficult thing,

but surely the government services, the environment department or somebody can

co-ordinate and insist upon a mandated program of recycling within the precincts

of the Confederation Building at least, maybe not every government department

all over the Province but at least that, so who is holding it up, is it you, is

it Mr. Fleming? If it is not Mr. Fleming, is it the Premier, is it the Cabinet,

who is holding it up?

MS. COWAN: I think one of the problems that

probably came about was, since I have been involved with the Environment would

probably be partly due to my illness and partly due to the number of changes in

the Ministers of Works, Services and Transportation, but the thing is moving

along at this stage and I have to say Jack, the same thing as I said to Lynn,

that I am embarrassed, frankly...

MR. HARRIS: You should be.

MS. COWAN: - that it has not moved along faster

than it has and you know, we will be putting every effort into getting it into

place.

MR. HARRIS: Can we get a better commitment than

one or two years? I mean that seems to me to be a very long - it is a very safe

answer I could agree with you, it is a very safe answer. It is easy to say one

or two years because maybe in one or two years there will be another government

or another Minister of Environment and Lands. I am not criticizing you for that,

it is a very safe answer, but can you not commit yourself to something a little

bit more reflective of your expressed impatience than one or two years.

MS. COWAN: Well when I said one or two years I was

saying it in the same context that you were, when you get down to the last

government agency and the last finite detail and so on it could very well take a

couple of years, but there is no reason why within a six month period we

shouldn't see some concrete examples of changes made, even like getting some

garbage buckets in here.

MR. HARRIS: Well I will be marking that down,

minister, six months from now.

MS. COWAN: Okay, you mark that down.

MR. HARRIS: If you are embarrassed now -

MS. COWAN: I will be more embarrassed then.

MR. HARRIS: - we will be sure to make sure you are

embarrassed in six months time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you recycle your own paper in

your own office? We do up in our office.

MR. HARRIS: Good. When I'm the minister you can

ask me questions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: He's not very often funny!

MR. HARRIS: Now I want to talk about car wrecks. I

know that they have been the bane of parts of our wilderness for many years.

Last year the government introduced as one of its new measures increases in

fines for car wrecks. There were changes in the fines, they increased the fines

from $2,000 to $5,000, in what I would describe as a punitive approach, the big

stick approach that we will get these people who are throwing away car wrecks

and we will fine them $5,000. My guess is the people who are doing that sort of

thing are perhaps people who are dealing in old wrecks, buying scrapped

vehicles, or probably people who are without resources and without the $5,000 to

pay in any event if you could catch them, if you could enforce them. You don't

have people going around policing this thing, and it is very difficult to trace

down these things even if the staff and resources were available.

I find with your government, not just in this area but

in a couple of other areas, that the solution quite often seems to be: well, we

will just up the fines. We will make the stick bigger, and we will rely on

enforcement rather than using some innovative approach. Would it not make sense

to consider a different approach to an issue such as car wrecks in co-ordination

with the motor registration people, the department of transportation, whereby a

system might even provide an incentive to get some of the car wrecks that are in

the forest, in the wilderness and in the environment now, out of there. To

provide an incentive for the return or disposal of car wrecks in approved sites

creating some sort of a bounty system - if you want to call it that - whereby

each time a person buys or registers a new car a fund can be contributed to

which can be used as a bounty for the return or proper disposal of these wrecks.

Can your department not consider something like that as a more effective way? I

mean you probably could get some of these yahoos who are involved in the

disposal of these wrecks to get out there and make a few bucks hauling them out

of the woods. Is that not a more reasonable approach, and has the department

ever looked at that as opposed to the big stick?

MS. COWAN: We are looking at that right now in

conjunction with the big stick. So you know the matter is being considered.

MR. HARRIS: Something along those lines? Can any

one of your officials give us more details on what is being considered?

MS. COWAN: Well this seems like a deposit system,

I guess you would say, like on bottles, or on returnable items that we are

moving towards now.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a committee looking at it?

When does the committee do the report? What is happening?

MR. FLEMING: It is among the measures that are

being considered. That is all I can say at this stage. There is no firm

schedule

on it or anything of that nature. The idea of putting deposits on cars is

another idea as the minister said. It is like putting deposits on beverage

containers or any number of types of waste.

MR. HARRIS: When you say the matter is being

considered has any specific staff been assigned to write up a report, develop a

proposal or put forward alternatives? Has that been directed, and if not will

the minister commit herself to directing someone to put forth concrete proposals

to her on such schemes?

MS. COWAN: Our focus at this particular time is

the beverage containers and that is where we are sort of putting our human

resources at this particular time. The car wreck thing will be included in the

waste management study which we are now in the process of planning so that we

can get that under way, so I think using that particular vehicle we can explore

the possibility of the deposit system more, some sort of bounty or whatever you

prefer to call it.

MR. HARRIS: What is the time frame on that?

MS. COWAN: I could not give you a time frame at

this stage. We have our agenda set for this year. This year our plans are being

made, the priorities are being set, and the terms of reference are being drawn

up for the waste management study so I would assume it will get off the ground

later in the year or early next year.

MR. HARRIS: So we are not looking at any action on

that for some time?

MS. COWAN: I have to say, Mr. Harris, that there

are a multitude of environmental problems in the Province that have come to a

head at this particular time and we are trying to move on a number of fronts

with limited resources. Government has put into our department this year, and I

am very pleased, extra resources so that we can move ahead in some very critical

areas but as much as we would like to we cannot move on every critical area at

once. You need money for social services, you need money for a health care

system and that type of thing, so as much as we would like to be able to correct

all the problems in the Province in the next twelve months I think it would be

rather unmanageable and a dream really to be able to do it.

MR. HARRIS: The other topic I wanted to address in

this round was the issue of forestry. We have in our Province right now, I

understand, an agreement of some kind between the Department of Forestry and

Agriculture and the Department of the Environment and Lands whereby essentially,

if I understand it correctly, the Department of the Environment and Lands does

not get involved in any environmental review of logging projects or forest

management proposals put forth either by paper companies or those intending to

log Crown lands. In fact this is not done by your department at all. The

Department of Forestry and Agriculture is involved in it and I suppose is

essentially hands off from the Department of Environment and Lands. Now this can

lead to many problems, not the least of which, the giardia problem in the Corner

Brook water system is perhaps one of the results of that. The Department of

Forestry and Agriculture obviously is looking at forest management from a

different perspective than the Department of Environment and Lands and there may

indeed be a different philosophy about environmental issues amongst the

Departments of Environment and Forestry. Indeed, they have different goals.

Is the minister satisfied that the requirements and

the philosophy and goals of environmental review are being satisfactorily looked

after by another department in the area of forestry operations in the Province?

MS. COWAN: Thank you for that question. It was

found several years ago - I don't know whether it was by our government or the

former one; I think it must have been the former government - that the

environmental assessment process which I outlined in very brief form to you here

earlier was not adequate for assessing forests and the environmental impact that

there might be on forests by the establishment of logging companies and that

type of thing.

There has been in the making for a number of years a

plan to address this issue that is being done by mutual working together of the

Departments of Environment and Forestry. Unfortunately it has proceeded too

slowly. So recently there was an application came to government, or

registration, for a project, and I said that it could not go ahead until these

particular forest management guidelines - what's it called? It's not -

AN HON. MEMBER: Forest harvesting.

MS. COWAN: Forest harvesting guidelines had been

drawn up. So that has put considerable pressure on the two groups, both

Environment and Forestry, to get their act together, get this particular plan in

place, so that we can proceed with proper assessment of a logging operation or

whatever it should be that is going to make use of the forest resource. So that

study it looks like now should be, because of the pressure to do something about

it, completed in the next two months.

MR. HARRIS: I am delighted to see that the

minister is being insistent in that area. Because we have had the Minister of

Forestry admit in the House in recent days that the issue of replanting forests

that are being cut down is seriously... not underfunded, but it's seriously not

being done. That in fact we are not replanting the forests that we are cutting

down. Of course, anybody who has flown over Newfoundland, has seen large areas

of clear-cut with strewn waste about. When an industrial operation is using land

and has to restore that land afterwards to a proper environmental degree, yet we

do see logging operations leave land and not restore it properly.

Is the minister saying that these harvesting

guidelines themselves will be sufficient, or is the minister considering playing

a stronger role by her own Department in the ensuring that not only new

proposals, which I assume we are talking about here, a new proposal for - is

this the Labrador proposal you're talking about?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. Not only new proposals, but I

mean the existing harvesting operations of Abitibi and the Corner Brook Pulp and

Paper. Is the minister looking at whether or not these companies are operating

on proper environmental standards as well?

MS. COWAN: Each new company now has to register

with the Department of Environment. After this assessment is put in place then

we will use that as our guidelines for assessing. So the Department of

Environment still plays a role there, not Forestry.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. For new operations.

MS. COWAN: For new operations.

MR. HARRIS: What about Abitibi and Corner Brook

Pulp and Paper, some of the larger sawmills which have logging operations? Is

the minister satisfied with the standards that are operating in the forest

industry in general?

MS. COWAN: I will refer that to the deputy, John

Fleming.

MR. FLEMING: What is registered under the

Environmental Assessment Act are the forestry's five