Volume XLI Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript J Number 32 11 May 1990

The House met at 9:00a.m. Ml". Oi"clel", please! Statements by Ministers The han. the Pl"E:~rnier . PrE!mier Wells: Mr . SpeakE:' I", OVE!r the last few days the Leader of thE! Oppos i t·ion has bE!t"! n rna k 'ing cert.atn cla:ims t,~.Jith l"~:!spect l:o the Province's position in terms of the fishery and particularly in terms of what he says was a Federal proposal to downsize the fishery. Yesterday he asked, will the PrE:~rniE!r table the docurnE!nt as submitted to this Government by Lhe Federal Task Force, thE:~ Ste'in Task Force, entttled Building a Viable Fishery and I said, Mr.

SpE!aker, I lAJoulcl probabJ.y tabJ.r:~ it in the House tomorrow and a complete statement to refute totally the infet"ences in the cornmE!nts of the Leader of thE! Opposi t.ion about. l:he Government's position. The Government's officials sought the approval. of the Federal Government whose document it was and which was sent to us on a confidential. basis. We sought appl"ova1 to table i. t. They have not agreed. They have refused to give the approval and I have no doubt. that the hon.

Members opposite have it of courSE!, I:H:~cauSE! they have been using it and quoting From it in recent days so I have no doubt thE!Y have been given copies of it. by thE! Federal GovernmE:~nt, so if l:hey tAJant. to make ·.it public, I don 1 t object to it. In any E!VE:!nt they appear to be able to quote ft"om lAJhat's in it. Whal:E:'Ver· thr:~y have been given 'information out of it by the Fedet"al GovernrnE~nl:, so if l:.hey lAJanl: to aJ"I"ange IArith thE:~ Federal Government to make il: L1 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI public I don't object. An Han. Member: copy.

We don't havr:~ a Premier Wells: Well, t.hey have bt::~E:~n given infoi"ITiation out of Jt obviously by the Federal Government, they haven't been given :it: by this Govel"ni'nEHlt-., but the Federal Government, · Mr. Speaker, has not givr:~n appl"oval l~o table the dOCUITilc'n L. Eai"J.·i.E!I" t.hi S week, on May 8, the han. the Leader of the OppositJon raised questions in this House relative to the Province's positton on a d o c u mE! n t e n t i. t.l c::~ d -~yj_).._Q .. tn_g P: V i a b 1 e F i S h e I" Y... • I n C 0 ITIITI e 11 l. j n g 0 n this document, l:.hE! hon.

Mf~1nber· indicated that the Province concuJ"r'E:'d tAiiLh an approach l:.o t..he ftshE:'I"iE!S Cl"iSiS that. lAIOUJcl l~esult. in fishel"rnen br::!ing foi"Crc•d out oF the fishery. In early OcLober, 1989, the Federal rask Force on NOI"thE!rn Cod pr·esentecl a r:'ishel"i.(!~; I"BSpOnSE! frarnetAJOI"k dOCLIITII~I'll: l:.O l:.he Pl"OVince Is Official Task r OI"CE! on Fish Quota Reductions entitled ft ~. tr-~.\:!.~.1..L..U.'.:.~_:tf. .. 0 .. 9j .. \~ .. ?. .. t.l:f.1.9D.t B..f2.£.CQ.a c . .b. . rhe Province Is Cabine l:.

Corrnn:i l:.t.l:~l=! on Fish Quot.a Rerluction subst::~quently assessed l:hE• docu1r1ent. and, on Oc Lobel" 2'7, the Pl"ov:ince' s position on the Federal proposal was communicated to Lhe Federal Govel"nrnent. oi.n a lrt(•et:.·Lnq oF l'.:h1:! respective Task Forces. In responding to l'.:he Federal pr·oposal, the Pl"ov:incr:! s Latr::•d t.hat. 'it could accept aspf:!cl:s oF .8. Structural/Ad-; ustment Appl"oach, in principle, but Lhat thE!

Province had major problems, parLJcularJ.y with arbitrary restriction on E!nti"Y into tht:! fishei"Y and l"r':!l'llovaJ. oF fishei"ITIE!n Fr·om l:hE! r--ishE:~I"Y· The Province rejected this approach and advised the Federal GoverniTIE!nt that ''Mt:•asur·es shou.ld be taken to provide alternatives fol" peoplE· with a llldr~ri.nal No. 32 Rl

attachment to the fishery and to permit the fishery income system to focus on ''corE! 11 o1n "rE!al" full-time fishermen on the condition that the need for such alternatives be explicitly recognized and accommodated in any E:~conornic developmE:~nt package." Clear1y, Min. Speaker, the position that the Province took on doumsiz] .ng thE! fishery at Lhat time, and which remains our positton, is that the on1y ~Jinounds on which such a move could be acceptable is if there are measures taken to provide economic opportunities both within and outside the fishery.

Once these opportunities are provided, individuals would then have the option to choose whether or not they would remain in the fishery. As a result: of conCE!rns raised by the Province during discussions of the Federal structural/adjustment document on October 27, 1989, the framework document was subsequently modified to reflect the Province's concerns. The original Federal document became a Province's concerns. The original Federal document became a Federal/Provincial working document retitled Building A Viable Fishery.

This revised document reflected the Province's view that any joint Federal/Provincial response program must consist of policy decisions to place the fishing industry on a stable competitive Footing and include an :intE:'gratecl development package.

This integr·ated developmr::!nl: package tJJould have three object .ives: (1) easing the adjustrnE!nt process fol" fishermen, plant workers and communities; (2) facilitating developm~·nts IAJithin and outside the fishing industry; and (3) faciliating broader-based developments in the Newfoundland L2 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI economy to dislocations accommodate and to broaden Province's economic base. any Lhe Mr·. 5p(:'aker, it is clear'ly o:!viclent that, at the very bc:~ginning of our discussions with the Federal GoVE:'rnment, the Provine(' tJJas not prepared to accept any approach l:hat would see fisl·lE!r'rfl•:>rl and plant. wor'kE!r's rE:'tTIOVE!d or forcE•d "from thE:! fishery without alternative employment opportunit]ps and choices. rhe P1novtnce has consistently maintained th at the objective of buildtng a viable fishery must be accornpaniE!d by an economic cl.iversificaUon progl"arn since these objectives are inextricably linked.

It. '.i.s in this rE•spE '!Ct that the FE!det"a'l Government's Atlanl .ic F:ishur·:l .es Adjustment Program is ~;c·r·jously flawed. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, in fact, that c:'lfl:.r::•r' they had a second J.ook at: . :it, inst:.eacl of giving the Federal Government a big pat on l:hE! back, t·:hoc• Opposition has also acknowledged that the proposal is seriously flatAJed. ThE!

GovernrllE!nt of NE :•w-foundlancl cu1d Labr·ador remains Fully COifiiTiilt.r:•d to the fishing industry and rernains sensitive l:.o thE! p]iqhl:. oF those individuals tAJho, thr··ouqh no fa u l t o F l: h e i r o tJJ n , n o lAJ F t n d themselves in difficult economic circumstances.

Under the circumsl:ances, Governments cannot expect '.'individuals to share the blame For Lhe pre se nt: re so urce management crtsis. · We, as a GoverniTten l:, haVE:' dE!ITIOns t.r·atecl OUI" sensitivil:y l:o Uw pl:ighl~ of l:hoso:! who have been affected by Lhe resourC(:' cr:isis and W(:' relttdin fully prepared to cooperate with the FedE:'ra1 GovernmE!nt. on 111easur·es to gene1nate IIIE•antngFu1 opport.url'ities, both tAJiLhin and ouLside the Fishery, for our No . 32 R2

people.opportunities both and outside the fishery people. within f01n OUln NotAl, Min. SpE:~akC::H', I could not tab1e the Federal document because I did not have the co nsent of the Federal Government to do so, but what I can table is an excerpt from the Cabinet minutes that deals directly with this proposal.

And here is the precise dir·ective from Cabinet. 11 Direct:E!d that approval be given to the recommendations of the Provincial task force, 11 and this tAJas the response made by the Provincial task force to the original Federal proposal entitled Structural Adjustment, 11 1Alith respect to fish quota reduction as follows: Measures to be taken to provide alternatives for people with a marginal attachment to the fishelny, and to pe:'nnit the fishe1ny in co me suppo1nt systl':11n to focus on 11 core 11 or 11 1"eal 11 full-·tirne:1 ftshermen, on the condttion that the need for alternatives is explicitly recognized and accommodated in the economic development package. 11 Mr .

Speaker, I arn happy to table this information this morning. Sorne Han. Members : He<:.'\r, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Merni:H ::'!I" for St. Mary 1 s- The Capes . Mr. Hearn: lhank you, Mr . SpE!aker. Anybody who had br:!E!n in the House this last week or so and had followr:~d what had gone on in relatton to the topic concerned and then Listened to the Premier· l:his morning, l:hey tJJould have no doubt at al1 i.n discovering that. he was a lawyer, because he has taken the facts and he has used them to his own advantage. His selected phraseology tries to L.3 May 11, 1990 Vol XU cover up the l"eal issue.

What tAle aske:1d, Ol" lAJhat t.he Leader· oF Lhe Opposition asked, was that thE:! Pl"t::~mier table thE! pl''eSE!nt.at..ion that the Provincial Government made to the Federa l Government, which is entirely separate from the all inclusive document. And in his statement. he says on October 27, l~hE! PlnouinCE! 1 s position on the Federal proposal was communicated to t.he Feder al GovernmE!nt. in i:1 ntueLin~~ or· respecttve task Forces. What. l/JE! have:1 asked is that l:.hal: presentation be tabled because every indication is in Lhat presentation that the GovernmenL was all in Favor oF downsizing.

N OIAJ it is no t on 1 y in l'.: h a L . In the €:'Vidence, tF you lAJant. to go back and reseatnch Hansat"cl, iF you lAJant to rE!Search pub 'lic st.at.e:!rnents rnacle by the Prern:iet", by the Minister of Fisheries t.>.JhE!n tallci.nq about th<'' industry, th(• one thing t: h a t S t a n d S 0 U t i'l ]tAli:.\ Y c; i S downsizing, rational:izat".ion of the fishing indust1ny . Plant s must close. We must have, in the tAJor·cl s oF the Minister oF Fisheries, a professional fishery, people who are not fully involued in the fishery should have no part.

These are the words of a man or of Government who does not really unders l:and NetJJfoundla.nd and hotAJ Newfoundlanders have survived and existed over l:he cenl:.ur·i.es, C:t professional fishery in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, the fllnE!miE!ln has skatE•d around the rt::'quest that. lAJas rnacle, h('! has tr:i.r:'d t.o conf'uSE! the issue by once again puttinq t.hP b1 aml:! upon tl·11:! FE!dS, IAJhen a11 he tAJas askHcl lAJas to table l:he position, as stal:.ud l:o thE! Federal Govet"lllnent, of thE:' Province, and hopefully , in the next: Few days we will see t.hat being l:.abled. No. 3 2 1n

It is, once again, just smoke and mil~rors that. we haue seen. What we asked For was the presentation of the Provincial Government to the Federal Government as of October 27, the Province 1s position, which states clearly the Province 1s position on the fishery . And the evidence is thE•re, quite clearly, that the ProvinCE! 1 s position is downsizing, downgrading, rationalizing and forcing people out of the f i s he r y .

You can do · i t i n tl.uo ways. ( l.) By eliminating the part-timers so that you haue a professional fishery, as the Minister of Fishery advocates, and the other way is to make sure plants close, because if plants close, fishermen do not have markets, they get confused - Mr . Speaker : Order please! Mr. Hear·n: -- l:he worke1~s do not haue employment and consequently, the aim of this Government to moue people out of the smaller centl~E!S into the larger areas, into the great industrial areas that they are going to build up 1.uith their dream plans, resettlement again, that is the aim of ·the Government, M1~ .

Speaker, but certainly, WE! arE:' going to make sure that the people of Newfoundland know the facts and sooner or later, the trUE! position of this GovernmE·nt will come out so that everybody will know. Some Han. Members : Hear, ht:~ar! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. Mr . Kelland : Thi3.nk you, Mr·. Speaker. OVE!r the pas l: few t.ueeks and months, Mr. Speaker, uninfor·rned sources haue raised l:he spectre tha t some of our provincial parks, one of the finest networks in th e country, i_l~ May 11, 1990 Vol XLI rni:ly not opE!n this year·, and this unfounded speculation, Mr.

Speaker, has causE·d some CCH1CE!r'n obviously with thE! campoing publ:i .c, with the personnel and staff in my Parks Division. Mr. Speaker, I arn pl1:'ased l:o inform the hon. Members oF Lhe House of Assembly and l:he residents of our Province, th at s e v e n t e E! n P r o v i n c :i. a l P a 1~ k s IAii 1 1 l:l 1:! opened for the Virtorid D~y weekend with a total of 1, 322 campsites available. lhe following Parks will be opening on May 16: Butterpot, Gushue' s Pond, Catamaran, Bellevue Be ach, Beoth:i.c, La Mane he, Not.l"E! Da rnc•, Backside Pond, Square Pond.

And on May 18 , J'ack 1s Pond, B]u e Ponds, Barachois Pond, Cochrane Pond, Fitzgerald 1s Pond, NorLhern Bay Sands, Frenchmen 1s Cove, and J.T. Cheeseman wil l be opening . The park staFF have been preparing fo1~ the openin~~s, a] 1 lTit;!in Lenance and improvements are cornp110:•t E!d r:·or the opening weekend. I am p 1l;! a s E! d t o a n n o u n c e t. h i.'\ L lA I r:• IAii .ll be providing e rnploymc ~nl : For 300 SE:'asoni.'tl staff' this SLIIIII I'lf:'l" in our park s sys t t~ rns, i.ncludii'1(J 100 students .

I would like to remind everyone L h i.'\ t f e e s F o r 1 9 9 0 IAI t ll r e 1 n a i n l: h E! same as last year . Da:i.ly and seasonal veh-.i.cle:1 entry pc':!l"rniLs drE! $2 and $10 l"E:'spe ctiveJy. ~)ix dollars IAJi]l bE! chargE!d For· a on•'" night stay in thE • park and $3~) oi.s charged fol" a 1Ait:'• :!l<1y sLay. Seasonc;t1 pel~rn:its cosl. : ~1>2 1:>0 . FuLly and partially serviced sil:es in Grand Codroy Park will cost $9 and $8 respecLively. Senior ciLizens of our Province are still provtded free access for l:hemselves only into any provincial park. BE!Cause there have be ('•n a numbt::'r No. 32 I~ II-

of incidents involving liquor and liquor related offences in previous years, the following measures will be enforced during the Victoria Day weekend and throughout the year. Alcohol will only be permitted on designatE!cl camping or picnic sites. Additional staff will be put in place in parks on the opening long weekend. Park staff w~ill mainta·in a clos•:! liaison tAJith local police officials before and during the weekend. All campers must rE:~gis l:er, all visitors to lhE! campground must register.

There will be increased foot and vehicle patrols and no visitors will be permitted after 10:00 p.m., that is the same as last year. I tJJould request that: evet"yone using our pt"ovincial pat"ks on thE! first long weekend of l:.he sutTttnc~r, cooperate with park officials in following our rules and regulations so that all visitors will have a safe and enjoyable weekend. I ask that this spirit of cooperation continue throughout the s ummE:~r.

In closing, I wish to E!mphasize that a1l pt"ovincial parks in our system lAd1] be opE:'n, as in previous years, and an announcement wi1] be made at a later. date rE:~garding the dates of the parks which have not yEd: open•:>d. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Mr. Speaker .

First of all, Minister for a and certainly many other Thank you very much, I lAJant to thank the:~ copy of his release I Feel the sarne as Newfoundlanders and L.5 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Labt"aclorians, it is nicE~ to SE!e tha·t sutTtrnc:.~r is corning and t:.hE! par'ks ar·e on evE!I"yonE:!'S rrd.nds ancl when I pass along by Butterpot and Gushue's Park you can see there is a line - up there already, people arE! anticipatin~J that the fine weather is corning and hopefu1ly that is the way it wi]1 always r.:~rnain.

As I went through thu MinistE!I"' s release there were a couple of l:hings that sot"t or struck my rnincl lAJhE:~n he mentions about a] coho] tAli 11 o n l y b e FH=! r' 1r1 i l: l.:i:" d o n designated camping or picnic sites. I thought thai: l:hE!I"e tniqht be sorne dE·signat:ion thet~E! Fot" areas oF completely non - alcohol such as at"r:~as for· chLldt"E:'rl to p]ay or IJJhatever. I thought that- 111i•~ht be a stipulation in his release.

I know f o I" a n urn b E•t" of" y r::! a I" s t. he handicapped accessibility, not alone for accessibility, but a numb(:~r of d.:>signatecl at"E'•as Fat" l:.h•::! handicapped was, I thought, perhaps introducE•d, I am not sut"e if it IJJas or not. rr:~ally, but T just thought that it should be thet"e thc:,,t a certa-.i n nun1be1" of sites be designated For Lhe handicapped, at least. The othE:!r thing, Mt".

Speake!", I IJJanl: l:o comment on :is: I hi01Ve been told that. on the ca]l- -back of the students who have certa i n1y expE·rience in thE:' lAJOI"k:i.nc:J of Lhr::• parks, and cr::~rt.a·inly exper·i.:HlCH is the world's greatest teacher, I wondE:'r hoiAJ many of l~he ca1l--backs actually have been called back? I am 1 e d t o b e l i e v e l~ h a 1- i. n o l. h e I" ye:'ar's thE~ park super·~i. nU:!ndent Ol" park supet"visor had l:o do IAJ:ith the hiring of students. And. Mt".

Speaker, I just tJJondet"E~d tJJhy this year that the changes be made; that aLl applicat.ions for st-.uciE'!nt E!tnployrnE•nt, Mt". ~)pE!akE!r, has -t.o go No. 32 I~ 5

directly to the Minister 1 s office? And they can laugh all they like OVel" thE:'rE:1, Ml". SpE.'ak!i:1r. It shows th~dr lack of interest in the students that. we have in this Province who apply for work, and who should not be discrtminated against under any conditions. Some Hon. Members : Hear, heat! Mr. Parsons: And I only hope, Ml". Sp1:1aker, that thE! Minister' is not discriminating in any way . An Hon. ME:1mber: Mast.el"S of hypocrisy. Mr. Parsons : Y~::1 s, mastE!l"S of hypocrisy. Mr. Speaker: Order, pledse! The han. gentleman 1 s time is up. Mr . Parsons: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. r'!r.

Speaker : Before proceeding to th(! next itE!m of business or recognizing the President of Tr( ?.asury Board, if I may on behalf of hon. Members welcome to the House of Ass~::Hnbly today twenty-·-one Grade V students accompanied by their teacher Mr. Bruce Critch From the Purchase Academy School in BotlAJOOd. Some Hon. Members: Hear, he<:tr! Mr . Speaker: The han. the President of Treasury Board . Mr . Baker: Thank you, Mr . Spr::•aker. Today, Mr. SpeakE·r, I would like to bring to the attention of hon.

Members recent Government actions regardtng the management of its vehicle fleet, specifically light trucks and cars . As part of this L6 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Administrations review of Governm~:-nt 1 s over·all opera t.ions, the DepartmE!I1't of Woi"ks, Sel"v:i.ces and Transportation was asked to examine th(:' cost eff'ecLi.VE!nE!SS of our light vehicle fleet management policies. This E!Xalllination revealed considerable lAJas tE:• of t.ax payE:1rs mon(:!y.

Accol"d:ingly thJs Administration has initiated a number of changes to poli.cies and furl:her reviews, lAiit.h l.hE! objective of maximizing the effectiveness of every dollar spl'::'nt in th:is ar'E!i:,. Ml". Speak(':l", I lAJant. to outline SOITIE! or-- l:hE!Se changes to han. Mt:'mbers this morning. Ml". Spt:1aker, th~~ I"E•COI"cis l"E!Vt:!cd l:hat GOVE:!I"nrnent. DeparLtnc::>nl:s operated just over 1200 1.:i~~ht vehicles. Of l:hesu alrnos l:. ~~;oo were dd.ven less thdn 20,000 krn per year. Wt~ al"e aJso dlAii'li"E!

L:hat various CrotAJn A~Jt:!nc:i.es oper'ate an additional ovf0r 800 V1::>hi.c les lAti l:h ·similar usage rates. Based on l:his information, Mr. SpE!aker, WE! j_rmnt:•cli.ab:!ly pJ.ac,:·cl a freeze on the purchase of new light VE!hi.cles. We exernplr::!cl specialty vehicles such as policE! car's, arnbu1ancr:'S, ancl so on, Ml". Spt:1aker, for' obvious l"(;!asons. We wiLl save almost $2 m:i] 1 :ion t.hts Yli:1ar as a result of l:his chanqe. Mr. Speake!", t.h"i.s does not rnean that pubJ .ic SE:'rvanl:s tAJho r·equil"(:! a Govel"I'IHIE!nt VE!h:i.cJ.e to clo thr:•ir job effectively wi]1 be wJthout one.

We are simply trirnminq the fat. We also examinE!d, Mr. Speake!", use of Government cars by MinisLers. We found that. Minisl:E!ria1 car's wer'E! costing tax payE!l' 'S in excess of $12,000 per year each. With ttAir:~nty---fi.ve Mi.nis l.:E!ri.aJ. car's :in use by the foi"IIWI" Gover·nmenl:, Ll'll:! existi.ng policy was costing over No. 32 1\6

$300,000 per year, simply to provide Ministers with cars. BeFore making any changes we also looked at lAJhat tAJas clOnE! in othe1n plnovinces. We found that similar policiE:~s existed ther·e. In fact, in several provinces tax payers provide chauffeu1ns to Ministers as t.o.Jell as cars. Mr. Speaker, we found this to be totally unacceptable. We deci.ded to get rid of Ministerial cars. All cars must bE! turm>d in by the E!ncl of May. In future Min:i.stE!rs w:l.J.J. receive an annual car allowance oF $8,000 and a gas card. This allowance will be reported as taxable income. The amount is substantially less Some Han.

Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: Order, ph!ase! Order·, please! The Opposition will be provided t;..Jith ample time to respond to the Ministerial statement. Mr. Baker: ThE! amount, Mr . Speaker, is substantially less than thE! cutnrE!nt cost, rr:~fJ.ecting the fac-t that a po1ntion of usage under the oJ.d system was for personal reasons. Tax payc:~rs, Mr. Speaker, cannot be expected to subsidize personal use of cars. This wiLl reduce thE:~ OVE!rall cos L of cars for Ministers from over $300,000 per year under the former Administration, to less that $150,000 which (inaudible). Mr.

Speaker, we will contimw to examine the use of vehicles in Government Departments and Crown Agencies with the objective of maximizing the productivity of tax payers dollars. As Further changes are implemented, Mr. Spc:~aker, I t.o.Jil.J. contintH::~ to advise han. Membe1ns. L7 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Some Hon. Members: Hea1n, hea1n! Mr. SpE:~aker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Mr . Speaker, I think the Member for Mount Pearl has hit the nail on l:he head. This is a sharn. First of a11. it is ~Joing to be very int1:!1nesting t:o S('E! t.hE!

Plnern:iE!r' walking clotAJn to Wal:E!l'·· St1n1:!et from ConfE~deral:.ion Butlding E:'VeJ~y clay, and walk:ing out. l:.o hts District or walking ouL to JTtE•ettngs tAJ:i.t.h no cal". That's going to be really unusual to see. I don't think this is really a srnc;unt move, no. :J.. No. 2, as paJ"t of this Aclrninistration's review, the Departmr~nt involVE!cl, Woi"b>, Services and Transportat:i.on, was asked to exarnine Lhe cost effectiveness oF the VE•hic1e Fl(;!!::'l: ManagE•rnE:•nL PoJ.id.r::!S. WE<L1, Ml". Speaker, you wouldn't know that this was a brand new initiat:i.ue of this Administration.

I can tell this Administration that in it i at i v e tAla s undertaken qui l: ~C! a while before that under the recolniTJc,,ncJations oF l:.he ~3~:~niol~ ExpE:!ncJj_t.Uine r~eviet.u COIIII'IIittee, so its not an initiative. rhey lAJOl.tlcl likr:! to givE:~ thE~ irnpi"E:•sston l:.hat it is a big initiat::iiJe oF theii''S, but t t:. i. s not . Sec on c1·1 y , it. lAJj 11 be interesting of course to see the fi.nal lnE!SUll:.s, t.hat·.'s t.o.Jhdt:. tAJill be interest.ing because ·it is hard to unde1nstancl hOLII this :is going to chang1:! an atAJI'uJ.

Jot, cost w-.i.se, wit.h an $8,000 cal~ a ·l ·lot.o.Jance and a gas card which by thE! t.\Jay covers maintenance cosLs, repa:i.rs - Some Han. Members: No, no! MIn . Simms : 0 h y e ~; j t it does, oh yes it. better chE:!ck youJ" gas better check your· gas possibility is - No. 32 clor:•s, oh dOE!S! cat"cls, cards. y (:0 s You you rhe 1n

Mr. Speaker: Orde1n, please! Order, pll':'ase! Mr. Simms: Anybody tAJho has a gasoJ.ine credit card can lE!ll you that, Mr. Speaker. Maintenance is COV1.':1red on it, repai1ns arc:' covetnE!d on it, tirr:1S are COVE!Ined on it, anything is cov1.':1red on a gasoline credit ca1nd. The bottom line is the end result will probably be that the cost of $12,000, which thE!Y analysed as the"' cost, lAJi11 probably be more than $12;000 $ 1 3 , 000, $ 14, 000 , $ 1.5 , 000 . As I said we will have to wait and see.

It seems to me to be a lot of smoke and mirrors, and nothing more than a public relations exercise by the Government, but .we '11 see what happens at thE• end of the year. We will see what happens. Oral Questions Mr . Speaker: The hon. the Oppos iti on House Leader. Mr. Simms : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . First of all, I t~o.Jant to ask the Premier a follow-up question to his statemE!nt this rno1nning, if I might. He madE! quih' a big to-do about the 'fact that he could no t get the Federal Government's permission or agreement to table the document entitled Building a Viable Fishery .

Then he went on to talk about th e Province's assessment of that document, and thE! Province's position tAJhich tAJas communicated to the Federal Gover'nmenl~ by the Provincial Task Force . IndeE!d, in the thir'd paragraph of his statement he goes on to quote from it. I lAJonder', table the since he is Federal L8 May 11., 1990 not able to Provincial Vol XLI document without the Federal Government's approval, would the Pn1mir:~r table thE~ Plnovtnctal Task For'ce document, lAJh'ich incltcatr:~s what the Province's position was? Mr. Speake1n: The hon. thE:~ Pr 'e iTLi .er' .

PJnemif.':'r WE!lls : Mr. ~)PE'akEq~, the hon. Member has it all wrong. IF he IAJi.ll go back and read l:. hE! statelnE!nl, t.he o1njqinaJ F:·r:~cli"'l"a] document tAJas a document. tn f.':'al"ly October, entitled A Structural/Adjustment Approach. That was thE! F ecle1na 1 doc l.llTIE! n L which Lhey initiat(H:I and l.:hC:'Y Sl:•nl.: to us . The N e lAJf o u n cl] '" n cl T. as k Force reviE:'lJ.Jed i. t, rnadE! Lhutr recommendations to the Cabinet Cornrni t tee J and Lhe c,:tbi nE· l:. is s lH'd a cl'.i.rE!CtiVE!, Ml". SpE!akr:•l ". I tablE~d a copy oF LhE! l"'''sponse oF the Provinc'.i.aJ Government.

I wou1d likE! to rl~ad it:, bu l:. I hdve misplaced it here somewhere.

Here is what the Cabinet Directive said with respect to a proposal relating l~o l.:his 1naLt:er, Lhat ~~Jas contained jn Lhe Federal document: 'Measures to be taken to pr'ovide alt:.E!rnat::i vE:•s fol" peopJ,::· t.~Jith a marginal al.:tachrnenl:. l:.o l:.he fisher'y, and to pE!lnm'.i.l ·Uw F''ishPr'y Income Support Sys h'm to Focus on core or real full -time fishermen on the condit-ion l:.ha l:. the need f'or alLernatives is expltc'.i.tJy tnecogniz!O:~d and accornrnoclal:.ecl i.n Lhe E:'conomic development Pt'1ckaqe.' Now that is l.:he Provincial position, and that is tabled. ThE:'n, Ml".

Speaker, the Feclc•l"a] Government produced anol:.her document caJlecl Build :ing a ViabJ.e Fishery. That other document incorporated a response to the Provincial Government position. So both documents, A Structural/Adjust1nenL Approach· <:>nd No. 32 r< s

Building a Viable Fishery, were the Federal documents . NotAl, here is precisely what I was asked to table by the Leader of the Opposition. This is Hansard from yesterday. Here is the question. Here is precisely Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premie1n Wells: thE! questi.on in the truth. I have to Olnd er to answer put out An Han. Member : answer . (Inaudible) the Premier Wells: HE! has a right to ask a supplE•mentary if he wishes, Mr. Speaker. Here is the answer . MIn . Simms : ( In au d i b 1 E! ) s p C::~ n d f i v C::~ minutes answering every question you are going to answer.

That is an abuse. Mr. Speaker : Order, please! Premier Wells: Here is precisely what I was asked . Some Han. Members: (Inaudible) . Mr. R. AyltAJard : We knouJ that.. We know all about that. We heard it ali (inaudiblr:~) . Mr. Speaker: Or·dt~r·, please! I ask hon. gentlemen to pJ.ease t.o observe 1 the rules of thE! House. The Premier is answering the question in l:erms of tAJhat he tAJas as ked l:o tabJe, and hon. Mernbe1ns ought to allow him that opportunity. Premier Wells : Thank you, Ml" . Speaker . L.9 May 11., 1990 Vol XLI An Han. Member: When is hE! going to an swe1n t hE:~q ue s t ion? Mr.

Speaker: Ol"dE!r, plE!ase! . .P_r._e r~.:Le...r:.._ .. We 11..~ : Now , MIn . S p <::' a I< E! r , I am going to answer thE:! question fully, not in a ltrnited tAJay that will allow the Opposition to contort it. They are going to have the whole truth. I know they do not 1-.il<e t:he tAJho1e trul:h, but they are going to have :it. Mr. Speaker: Orcleln, pJ.easrc!! I ask the PrE:~rrrier to ~Jld: on tAJ:i. t.h the ansWE!r, please! Premier WE!lls : :is the pr<::~cise PrE•rniE!l" tab1<:' submitted. An Han. Mernbel": question. Thank you . !-IE!l"E! rN1ues t. Will l:.hE! the docurnonL as ThaL j s not l:.he Some Hon.

Members : . Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: Here is the prE!Cise lnE:~quest. Wil] t.he Pl"erniel" table the document as sub111iU.ecl to thts Government by L.he Fecil'!l''al Task Force, The Sl:etn Task Fore~-:., entitled Building a Viable F-.isht'l"y? NOIAJ, Mr. SpuakE!In, hav i.ng laid thc,1t foundatton, h~;:!J"e ts th,,! total answer to the question today. Neither of these documents is the Provincial rE!Sponse. !'"hey arE! both Feclera1 clocurnents, as 1 have explained. We sought t.hE• permission of the Federal Government·: to releas~'!

Lhern, and :il: tAla S r 1."! f Ll Sed ··-· j_ t. lAid S In E• r· Ll S l'' d . Now, here is the Prou-.incial response which I have tabled. So, the Provincial response has been tabJ.ed, and thE:' hon. ME:!I·nbel" should read the document. No. 32 [~9

Mr. Speaker: The Hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Mr . Speaker, I will tell you, the more I hear this Premi er and h:is smooth-·talking, the more he tries to bamboozle the people. He doesn't have the ability to give a straighl:forward answE:~r. That is his difficulty, he hasn't the ability . He was asked to give a copy of the Ptnovince' s response to the FE!dE!ral Govennnent. He is nolAJ saying that response was simply to the Cabinet, nothing else. No other response tJJas given to the FE!deral Government, is that what the Premier is saying?

Mr. _fL.. __ Wwa_rd: You are going to see a copy of it someday. Mr. Speaker: The han. The Premier . Premier Wells: The document which I tab]ed this morning says, Mr . Sp1:!aker, l:hat the Task Forces met and the rE!sponse of the Province lAJas given orally, based on this Cabinet directive. Mr. Simms : Orally? Premier We1ls: Yes! YE!S! Ms Verge: Oh. come on! Premier Wel1s : Well, and see if there is writing . Mr. Simms: Wi11 you? I wi11 anything go in Premier Wells: Yes, I tAJi11. I will check to see if there is anything in tJJril:ing, but. I think this document says at meetings - Mr. R. Aylward : (Inaudible).

I doubt for very long . Mr. Speaker: Order please! l..lO May 1.1.. 1990 Vol XLI Premier Wells: Page 2 of the ~)t.atement: 'As a rC::!sult of concerns raised by the Province dud.ng discussions of tl'w FE!cletnaJ. Structural Adjustment DocutTtE.>r'lt, on October 27, the frarnE!lAJork -· I am sorry! At a point before Lhat it says it w<:ts don~:;' at rneC:~l:.tngs between the l:t.~.Jo Task Forces. l .. he ProvincE:'' s position lAJas put l:o t.hE! FedE!ral Government, and, as a r•esult, thE!

SE!COnd ciO Cl.I ITH'•nt, Building a Viab1C:~ Fishet"Y, tqas generated by lhe Federal Government which t"E!flectecl this comment of lh(:' ProvincE•, ancl thts is the Province's position on it. - it was tabled in this way. Mr. Speake1n : ThE! l-Ion. The Opposition House Leader . M r . Simms : This i. s a b s o] u t e 1 y u n b "~lie v a b 1 e ! Is l: hE! P ,~ (! tTtoi c::•1" n ot..u saying that h:i.s rE'!SponSE! Lo such a largE! question. larsJe problem t~Jas a VE!rbal rE!Sponse? Is thc-:d :. tAJhat he is saying, it was simply a verbal responSE!? Mr. R. Aylward: business. What c:t t•J a y l o cl o M r .

S pea k e 1n : T h e h o n . t h e P 1~ e 1'11 l e t'· . Premier WeJ.ls : NotJJ, Ml". Spei:tket", this is written . Il: is Vt::'r·bal but it is not oral, it is written . An Hon. Membet" : (lnaucl".l.b1r::•). Prernietn Wells : WE!}l, if he lA!iHll:.s every response has to br?. a vr::n·bal response . We do not. lalk i.n s:iqn language, WE! t.a1k in lAJor·cls OJ" tAle Wl"i t.e in lAJOI"ci S. An Hon. Member·: Vet"ba1 no t ora] . Premier Wells : Maybe lhe Member does not know the diFFerence between verbal and ora1 , and I commend him to the dictionary . No. 32 r\ 1 o

Mr. Speaker, the Province's response was decided by Cabinet. It tAJas wr·itten in a Cabinet Minute. lAJhich I have tabled. Now, Mr. Speaker. to the best of my knowledge, that was conveyed directly to the Federal Task Force. In meetings with the Provincial Task Force, the Province's position was conveyed, and, as a result, a second document, Building A Viable F:ishery. was. I believe, genii:~ rated by the Federal GoVE!rnrn~~nt.

But I will go back and reaffirm as to whc::~ther that was gE!nE!rated by the FE!deral GoVE!rnment: or was our version of the Federal Government's document, adjusted to reflect the concerns of the Province. I will go back and check that., but to the~ best of my knowledge, it was originated by the Federal Government, also. Mr. Spc::~aker : The han . the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Premier talks about - what was it he said? - our answer was verbal not oral, or oral not ve1nbal. I am not quite sure what he said. I used the word 1Winitten'. The Pre'mier used the word 1 oral'.

I ·t has nothing to do with verbal ve1nsus oral. Talk about smooth talk. Can I direct him to his otAJn Orcle1n in Counci1, then, the one he just tabled? This is a tAJritten Order in Council. The first Line or so says ' ... direclE!d that approval is given 1 this is to s~~nd to the Federal Government - 1 to the recommendations of the Provincial Task Force. 1 What we are asking - I will say it very clearly - is if h e 1.11i 11 t a b l e a c o p y of l: h E! recommendations of the Provincial Task Force. It cannot be any Ll1 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI clearer than that . Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier.

Premier Wells: Mr . Speaker, the Provincial Task Force is a Cabinet paper generated to Cabinet: and put forward to Cabinet dealing with the whole thing, and discusses in - An Han. Member: Will you table it? An Han. Member: task force does. WE~ k notAl tAJha l:. a An Han. Member: Why don't you shut up and listen? Mr. Speaker: Or·cler, p1eas~~! Ord~:!r, pJ.E!aSE!! ThE! Chai1n has v1:!ry oFten in l-.:he past rnade the ruJ . .ing that when a question is as kE·d, hon. Membe1ns should give the Mei'llbE~r· ansL<.JE!rinq the question a chance to answer the question without interjections.

TherE• is plr::!nty of time for questions, ancl thl::> Chair recognizes eWeJ~ybocly who l":i.ses. So if hon. Members lAJanl:: l:o ask l:.he Pln<::'rnier a fu1nth~~r question, do t t on a supplementary. The hon. the Pr<::'ITI'ier. Premier Wells: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. The recommendations of the Provincial Task Force - I wi ll star·t aga'in, Ml". Speake!" -·· Uw recommendations oF l::he Provincial Task FolnCE! was cont:a '.i. nE!cl J.n a Cabinet: paper· and, as hon. Merni:H:!J~s know, Cabinet papers are confidential and are never rel.easecl. Ms Verge: Oh! ThE! Task For-ce (Inaudible).

Premier Wells : Mayb~:! the hon . No. 32 R 11

Members want me to table every Cabinet paper that was submitted by the former Government. Maybe I will consider doing that, and then we will have some explosion. Mr. Baker: fun. Then we will have some An Hon. Member: or no? rhe answer is yes Mr. Speaker: Ot~detn. pleaSE!! Pn~mier WE!1ls: Mt~ . Speaket~. t.l1e recommendations to the Provincial Task Force are contained in the overall paper generated for CabinE:~t to makE! tnecommendation and assess the dE!tails of the Fed.::~ral Government proposal. Now those papers are never made public. as hon. Members opposite know.

Al1 of their papers are still availabJ.e. but thE!Y are not rnacle public either. We respect thE• normal courtesies of Governments tAJhen Lhey change not to make those th:ings pubJ.ic, and we would do not intend to. nor do we intend to make this document public. It is a Cabinet paper . What we have done, Mr . Speaker, and made pubJ.ic, is the Cabinet decision that came out of it. The Provincial Task Force recommendation discussed in detail all the proposals contained in the Federal paper. and they have not agreed with that being made public either. Mr. Speaker : rhe hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr.

Simms: Mr . Speaker, we are getting nowhel~e with this. It is obvious the GoVE !rnrnent is going to stonewaLl . on it. That is precisely tJJhat l:he Leader of the Opposition was at and after for the past week. and the Premi.::'r Ll.2 May 11, 1990 Vol XL.l today has clever ly tri ed to camouflage it by his statement. But the fact of l:he rnal:.l:c:!l" is 1·1,~ will not provide the information we are as king For. u ndE!r l:he guJ. s ,,. that it is protected by Cabinet confidE!ntiality. What nonsense, Mr. Speaker . I wan l: to movE• to another at"ea. Mt~. SpeakE!r. if I rnay.

A fetAl days ago, in responSlC! t:o l:he aJJ,?gal:i.on by the Leader of the OpposJtion that this Government has given J~ea1.1y no serJous thought. l.o iH1Y program to directly help the communities which ar'E! going t.o be affE!Cted by the foishE!ry si.l:ua .l:.ion, the Premier threw out t.his tremendous idea - it was almost as if it was an afterthou~Jht:. No, I should not say it. wen. yes. maybe I wi.11. -· he thi~E!tAJ out . lhjs idea to help the people of Tt~E:~passey, the 650 pE!opJ,::· tAJho tAJi .1.1 be oul: of jobs and out·: oF lAJCH'k iF the p1.ant closes. and 1 dill referring to his naval base idea.

I IAJould like l:o ask l:he Prern-i''"l" if hE" couJ.d bt~ic;•f1.y t.e1J us tAJhat precisely he is talking about and, secondly, can hE! also te1] us hotJJ many jobs l:.his id(:•a tAii .ll hatJI~ or wi]l provide for the 650 peop1e in Trepassey who will lose !:.heir jobs? ~_r._._Spea~ -~..r: The han . tlw Prerni .t:'r . Premier Wells: cannot tell details. Not but because details. No, Mr . him any because [ I do noL ~)P'''<'lkel~. I of Lhose lAiil1 110t, hav.::~ l.hl':· Sorne Hon. Members : Oh, oh! Min. Speaker : OrdE!r. plE:'ase I Premier Wells: I will sl:.art again. Mr . Sp1~aker.

No, I cannoL tel.l the House any of lhose details, not bc:'cause I do nol: . tAJant No. 32 R:J.2

to, but because I do not have th~~m. They aJ"E! undE!r the control of the Fed':~ral Gov"=~rnment. We have become aware that the Federal Government wants to establish a facility in St. John's to accommodate naval vessels. Now, we aJ"e pleaSE!d to hE!ar that. We are very pleasE!d. indeed. to hear that, and WE! wiLl. do anything we can to accommodate the Federal Government in this regard, including making space the Province has on the St. John's t.uatE:~rfront, adjoining l~he naval · property there, available to accommodate it.

When we got word that they were asking for th:i.s adclitionaJ. space, it is not that we would not make the space available to them, we tAiill if St. John's Ha1"bour is the onJ.y place lAJherE! it can be clone. we said to the FedE!ral Governnwnt what I conveyed J.ast weEd< to th"=' Minister of Fisheries and what our officials have been . conveying to other FedE:~ral· officials. pleaSE! do not automatically assume St. John's, look at Trepassey. It is only a drive of an hour or an hour and a half from away from St. John's. and it is an excellent harbour.

Look at establishing the facility in Trepassey, and we will do everything we possibly can, and this wiLl hE!lp rnah~ up fo1" some of the job loss. Not.u, if il~ is 100 jobs. it t.ui11 make up For 100; if it 1000. it tAJill be a J"r,,al boon; if it is 1.5, it. is bE!'l.tE•r than none, Mr. Speaker. WhatE:wer it is, it is the right thing to do. Some Han. Members: Hear. hear! Mr. Speaker : The han . the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Trepassey has an excellent harbour. That harbour has a sandbar across it, as I L13 May 11, 1990 Vol XL.I recollect from the information I have. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, what an expos6!

What an admission! Mr. Speaker: Oi"cler. please! Oi"der, please! I ask thE! han. M"'~mbel" to takE! hi.s seat. Increasingly now, I find hon. MernbE!rS ar<;! bE!~Jinning to deba·tE! the ansWE!rs. Han. M'=~mi:H:•I"S know that in a supplmnentai"Y they are supposed to get to the supplementary. In any event, Question Period is a place for information, not fol" cleba · L:i . n~J. 1 am sure all han. ME!ITibE!I"S t~o.JiH1I. to be confined by the rules. The han. the OpposJt:i .on House Leader. Mr. Simms: Yes, Mr. agt"E!E! udt.h you, Uw apply to both sides. Sp~~ah~r. I rules should Mr. Sp,:;!ai<l:=!r.

I am saying that - Ml" . Speaker : Ol"ci e I", pJ.easE:'! Order, ph~ase! I t~o.li11 ask the han. ME:~rnbE!r l~o lakE! his place. That st.aternent is not onE• the Chair r1:;!i:'l l.ly appi"eCL3.'l:c:!s. and T ask thE~ hon. ME! I'fl bE•l" to refrain from making stat.emE!nts. The hon. Mc•rni:H'!l" the suqgE!Stion thal: . l:.hE! should appJ.y to both stcles. SpeakE!r is applyinq thl:!rn l.o sides. and t.ui 11 not. Lo 1E~ I" a t.E' kind of reflection. The hon. the Opposi l·ion LE!adet". s l.l c h lfld k (! s I"U1es The bo l~h thi.'lt. Hou~>E! M r . S i mrn s : M l" . ::3 p '"'a k e r . t~o.ri l: h cluE! respect.

I certainly clicl not. indicate anyLhing should reflect on you. 1 said the t"u]es appJ.y Lo both sid1:=!S, and they do. So, you know, maybe pE•oplE! ar'E:! too t.':!sty l:oday. I do not know, but [ lAJas not imp1ying <:'lnythj ng to YOU I" No. 3 2 R1.3

Honour . I will expose this idea of the Premier 1 s for what it is worth. He has noLAJ adrn:i.t.ted thE! I"E:'ason hE! could not give us any information is because he does not have the infol"Jnation. We].l, Mr. Speaker, it is not difficult to get the inFormation. I suggest to him, or I 1:1.sk him, isn 1 t the PrE!mier awar·e that this grandiose project he talks about i.s reaJ.ly c:~n idea the Federal Government has to build a building to house the employees t..uho are alr"~ady existing het"l;! in St.

John 1 s and in PleasantviJ.le, who work in Pleasantville, to house 15 permanent empJ.oyees and the reserve people who are associated with that program? That is what the Federal GovernmE!nt is now planning to do; that is tAJhat they are looking for the land down at the har·bour for; and all you have to do is call the City Counci1 staff down therE! and they will give you the information on the project. Is he not awarE! of all of that? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier WeLls: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of ail that, bE!Cause it :is inaccurate, it inaccurately represents the situation.

I am at..uare that:. the Federal Government wants to build such a building. I am aware oF that. But I was taJ.king about -· An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) railway crossing. Premier Wells: I tAJi11 start again, Mr. Speaker. I a1n aware that the FeciE:~ral Government tAJc\nts to build such a building, but what I was talking about is the request of the Federal Government that the Government of this Province make available to them harbour front Llfl. May 1.1., 1990 Vo1 XLI space, waterfront spacE:~. You do not need harbour-front space to buj ld a building.

Thc,~y need the:• additional harbour-front space to accommodatE! shi.ps. NotAl, that:. is what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker. That is precisely why the first thing I did when my officials asb~d mE• jf ~ t.he Provincial Government would agree to make th:i s LAJatE!r·front spaCE! available for that purpose was say, go back to l:.hE• rc·ecleincd Government and ask them to consider put.U.ng it:. tn TrepassE•y, whE!re it can do sorne r·eal ,:;!conolll"ic good fo1~ thE! cornrnuni ty. It. :is not:. that we will not rnake the space available.

If that is the only space that can be available, we will most certainJ.y cons:ider 1nakinq it: available. r1·11:!n t:he nE!Xt thing I did LAJas gr::·l. a nautical chart or' the harbour· at Trepassey and 1noked at Lhe capacity of Trepassey Harbour. This is a small pho Lo copy, the big full chart :is in my oFFice and I w:i11 get it and show hon. Members. Trepassey has a tremendous hadJoUt", w:i 'l..h a] 1 kinds of water. Every hal"bour has scnnE! kind of a sandbar somewhere in some pal"t of it, but Tr,:•passc::•y has a tremendous harbour that: could accommodate l:he enl.il"e Royal Canadian Navy, Mr. Speaker.

Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. SpE!aker: ThE! hon. the Opposition House Leader. Ml". Simms: Ml" . ~>peakE•I", aqatn LAK! see another camouflage. That- 'is al] this is. The PrE!ndE>t' knoLAJS full well ~· ac tuaJ.ly ht:~ does n 1 t know, and that is the problem. I would I ike to ask hi.rn thj s: Is hE~ not aware that. this idea hE:~ .is talking aboul is, f:l.I"S t. Of a]], some thing !:hat is a long, lonq lAJay No. 32 R I 'l

down the road, a very long way down the road? That is not an immediate project or interest of the FeciE~ral Govei~nrnE!nt. Secondly. the facility they ai~e talking about if For deep-sea training. That is what it is. It is not a naval base, it is for deep-sea training. They are going to bring in a couph• of boats, a fE!W jobs, not ver·y many. A very small facility is a11 they are talking about. HoiAJ is that going to I'H=!lp the 650 people who are going to lose their jobs in TI~epassey? Can he explain that? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier WeJls : Mr.

Speaker. would they rather put a scallop plant there that in two years fi~orn now may also b1:~ in trouble. with no divei~sity? It is a ITIE!ans of diversifying. Jf it creates fifteen jobs, teri~ific! If it creates 1,500 jobs so much the better. M1~. Speaker. thE! proposal we IAJer'E! dealing with was a request - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! PI~emier Wells : They havr,, a real aversion to truth and to being shown up for what they are. Mr. Simms: (Inaudible) we have not heard it from you in weeks. PrE!mier WE!lls : You do not want to h1:'!a1~ it. or they do not IAJant l:o hear it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

The Chair must again intervene and remind hon. Members that when a question is asked, hon. Members should do thE! courtesy of a1l.owing the answer without any •.interjections. EVE!ry Mernbrc!r is 1,_15 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI r:~nt.it1E•d to silence. I ask hon. MEnni:H~I~s to rny right:. to please restrain themselves, and I ask a'I.l hon. ME!rnbers to confinE! thernSE!1VE!S to the rules of the House. The hon. the PremiE.~r . Premier Wells: Mr . Sp~::~aker. just let me spE!ll it out.. so that at least thE:~ medta and o Llll::ll~ Me rnbE:!I"S of thE! House wLJ] know Pl"E•c.i.se1y what thE! sil~.uat~i.on ts iF Lh1:!

Opposition doesn't want ~i.t. knotAJn. The proposal came to the Govei~nrnE!nL to rndkE! spacE• ava:ilable to accommodate naval ships in U11:> St:. John's Harbour; bE:! cause t.ht::!l"e was not adequate space at the p r E! s E! n t n a v a 1 w h a r· f . lAJ o u 1 cl l,o..J c::· rn d lu:· space, which is n~a1ly unclE!!" l.:l·ll:! rnanagr:'ITIE!nt. of l:he Ma1··ine Institute, available to the Navy to accommodate ships? -· and t.h''!Y were going to put another building therE! as IAJe]J. So, the fi1"st. response I had was, well, sure. we'11 accommodate the ni:lvy, but don't automatically think or: St.

John's. tl·wi~e ar·e othei" p1acr:•s in this Province. We have t.o bu i1d and continUE! to build an E:·conorny in rui~al NeiAJfoundland. Ol" the reason for existence of St. John's tAli ll c e a s e . S t . J o h n ' s IAJi. 11 b e the capital of nothing i f we don't build the economy of rural Newfoundland. That is our objective. Mr. Speaker, so I did the SCJ.ITIE:!, I clj.d E!XacL]y the SdlriE! in this case, to promote Trepassey, as I did to promote western Newfoundland. Some Hon. Members : Oh, oh! M1~ . Or·der, Speakr:~r : plE:~ase! Or'c\ e I". please! I I,o..Ji1l ask thE!

Pr':'llliE!r pl1:;!dSH l:o try and clUE! up his anstAJE•I". Wr:! are getting to an area of repetition, and I know the No. 32 I~ 1 1)

questions were repetitious, so I will ask the han. the Premiel~ to try an clue up his answer quickly . Th~1 hon. th~1 Pr·ern:ier·. Premier Wells : Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I lAJill do as you request. In response to the repetitious question let me say again. Mr·. Speaker, that the first response of Government was look at TrepasSE!y. If it can bE! done in Trepassey. then by all means do it. And it will be the right thing to do, because it will make some jobs available. It is not and never was intended to be - let me 1nep~1at - it is not and never was intended to be - ~n Hqn. Member : What an abuse!

What an abuse! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I will teLL hon. MembE•rs it is an absolute abuse as long as han. Members keep interrupting. The Premier wants to give an answer without interruption. If han. Members lAJill co-operate without interruptions. I will decide when I should tell the Premier to take his seat. So if hon. gr::•ntlE!TriE:Hl lAii 11 c o ·-o p e r a t e • I lAI i l 1 l i s t r:1 n t o the answer and tell the Premier when he is finished. fhe han. the Premier. Premier Wells: rhank you I Mr . SpeakE!r.

It is not and nE!VE!r l.l.las intended to be a total answer to Trepassey's problem for the 650 people, it. IAJas intended l:o makr:~ a contribution to the economy of frepassey. And if it comes about, if the Federal Government has the will to do it, it will make - An Hon. nothing Ll6 Member : about You said you it. You k n elAJ knew May 1.1. 1990 Vol XLI nothing about it, you said . f.t_§!.!!! i e r: ....... -~ .. ~J.:.l.~'?- : L e t mE! 1~ E· p r'! a l again. It was intE!ndr:'d to malu:• a contribution to the prob1r::!rn, not to be the total answer .

And if the Federal Government has the l.l.Jill to do it, it lAJi11 1nake an economic contribution to Trepassey. But it won't necessarily be the total an swer. we still have to find the tot·al answer for Trepassey's problem. Mr. Speaker: The han. tl·w Men1ber· for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. SpeakE!r. The Resoui~CE! I .. E!q:is]at:i.ve Review Commil.:l:e"'~ l"('!cent ··ly consiclerE!d an C\llrendrnent La thH Newfoundland and Labr·adol~ Hydro Act. The amendment fol"lnali :u :.:; Government's budgt::d:.ary decision l:.o charge a gu<:U"anteE! f'E!C lAih:ich, I understand, lAii11 cos l:.

Hyd1no in t.hE• order of $9 million -- tha t. is $9 million Hydro will have l.:o find from somewhere. They were recently before the Utilil.:1es Board looking for· 4. ~1 pE!I" cen L. '-'' year for three years. W"L11 Lhis particular guarantee fee requirement require Hydro to go back again very soon? I would ask t h e P In 1:;! m i I:! r , i n l: h ~~ a b s e n c E! o f t·. h e Minister of Energy. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the PI"E !rni et". Pl~ernier WE!11s : No, Ml". SpE!ak,:•t". it won't require them l:o 1nak(! ctny such applicaU on at . a] 1. j t is d .. l] included in the application that has alrE!ady been llldde.

That particular requirement is ref1ective of GoVE!Innl'flenL' s <.:i~:!l 'lE:!I"d] policy to require Lhe payment of a guarantee fee every Lime the Government gives a gurantee. no matter to whom it is given. ~.r.: __ : ___ ..?.E.§! .. §!J .. ~.r -: The hon. the Me1 r1be r· No. 32 Rl6

for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Mr. SpE:'aker, thE! Minister of Finance announced a payroll tax will affect b~th major public utiliti.:1s in the Province. I would ask the Premier again, will that particular requirement require both of these particular utilities to go back to l:he Pub1ic Utilities Board soon? Mr. Speaker: The han . the Pr1:!mier. Premier Wells: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The han . the ME!mber for Green Bay . Mr. Hewlett: Mr.

Speaker, given things like the PDD subsidy with a phaseout, guarantee fees, payrol1 tax, Federal GST, inflation, wouJ.d the Prc:!lnier admit to the House and thE! peopJ.e of l:his Pt"ovince that we are facing upt..uards of a 50 pE:~r cent power rate hike over the next severa1 years? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier . Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, we have a Public Utilities Board that manages the - Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Premier We1ls : I will again, Mt". SpeakE!r , We Public Utilities Board with the start have a charged Mr . R. Avlward : (Inaudib1r:1) rip-off. Premier Wells: I Llli. 11 star ·t again, Mr.

Speaker. We have a Public Utilities Board Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Ml". Speaker : Order·, pJ.ease! L.17 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI I again ask ~10n. Mernbet"S, a ftnal time, to stop intE:!rTupt.inq in Question PE!riocl. Thc,11"E! are I"U1E!S the Speaker would have to abide by in thE!Se events. If hon. Mr:mtbro•I"S w:ill not abide by H11''m, then Lhe Chair is going to have to use the extent of the rules to ensure that Qur:~stion PE!riod is cart"ir:~d out smoothly and within the confinement of the ruJ.es. The han. the Prent'ier .

Pt"emier Wr::1J.ls: We hdve a Pub] ic Utilities Board charged with the responsibility of supervising the conduct of N~;!L\Jfoundland dnd Labrador· 1-lydt"o and NetAJfound] and Light and Pot..uer Colllpany, the h..uo distributors of eJ.ectrica] power in the Province, and Lh~?Y supervise it. The inference ".in the hon. gent1Ptnan 1 s qu~:!S Lion is tota1ly without r·oundation, M1·'. SpeakE:~r. Mr. Speake!": The hon. l:i·H:! Mc~illbet" for Mount Pearl . Mr. Windsor: Thank you, M1·' . Speaker. I lAiill try to get sotnr::~ infor'1na t:. i. on from the Min:l s ter of FinanCE:!, Mr'. Speaker.

The MinisLer is no doubt awat"e of L.he stal.C:'!IliE:!nLs rnacl1::! yesterday by Mr. FrE:'nch, the Pt"E!Sident of thr:~ St. J' qhn 1 s 13o<H'ci of Tracie. Hr:~ lAJas spealdn1] on behalf of businesspeopJ.e right. across this Province LIJhen he Sdys that the Province is very rnuch into an economic t"ecess:i.on, 1.uhi.ch he considet"S, ft"OITI a I:Jus·.inc:·s~s point of view, as a crisis situation. The ques t ion to t he Minister, Mr. Speaker, "is he~ dL\Jdi"E• of the sta t ements the President:: or the St. John 1s Board oF Trade made? The President. pointed out Lhat there were 105 bankruptcies in Lhe No. 32 Rl7

First part of this year in comparison to 4-4 · in the samE! period last YE:'ar; he poinb~d out that housing starts are down by 40 per CE!I'l"t in the same period this year; and l1e pointed out that there is a tremendous slowdown in retail sa1es. May I ask thE:~ Minister a very simple question? What is thE~ Minister proposing to do to deal with this serious economic situation we are faced with in N1c•wfoundland and Labrador today? Mr. Speaker : The han. the Minist er of Finance . Dr. Kitchen: Mr . SpeakE!r, sornr:~ of the points made by the MernbE!r are not entirely accurate . He has exaggerated to some extent.

Mr. Windsor: What Mr. French said? Dr. Kitchen: No, Mr. French did not say what the Member said he said. But let. mE! say this, Mr. Speaker, the bankrup ·tcies which are increasing throughout Canada, and which are of gl"eat concern to all Canadians, including all Finance Ministers, are a direct result of the interest rates policy of the Federal Government. That Federal Government is dE! terminE!d to kc!ep interest rates high in order to keep inflation down, so they say, and it is creating tremendous problems from one part of Candda to the other. Yesterday, or thE• day beforE! yesterday.

I attend1?d a meeting of Trade Min.i.stE!rS and therE! thE! ques ·tion tJJas raised again dnd again, that. int.er·est l"ates arE! killing Canadian industry and putting people into bankrup t.cy. That question should b E:~ directed to thE! Federal Government, not to this Minister. Some Han . Members: Hear, hE:'ar! L18 May 1.1, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: rhe hon, the MtHnbE!r foJ" Mount PeaJ"l . Ml". Wind sOl" : Thank you, Ml" . Speaker. I point ou l~ to l:he Minister that I CE!rtainly did not exaggerate it, I quoted directly from thE! statE!rnE!nt J"E<leased by the President of the Board of r·l"ade.

The MinistE!r 1 s responsE· la st ni~1~1't:. was, Oh, well, l~he Boal''d of Tr-ade are a~JJays getting on with that FoolishnE!SS, so we see Lh1'! rE!::.>pect the M:lntster has f'ol" busj_n(!SS in this Province. Let rne ask the Minister' th ··is, Ml". Speaker. Thr:~ PresidE!IIl~ oF Llw Boar-d of TradE:~ also po:in ted ou L, of course, l:hat interest: rates weJ"E! high, but he also po:intr::!cl out that the Minister 1 s payr-oLl l:.ax is having a very detrimental effect. on business. Some Han. Members : Heal", hear! Mr.

Windsor : He said there are two choices For business, either cut back in thr:' amount of JaboUJ", or increase the price l:o consumers. Is the Minister now, in view of the econo1nic sit11ation and in vietJJ of - Ml". Fr·ench 1 s statements as it relates to the payroll tax, PI"E!paJ"E:'cl to r:!]:irntnal:_,::! that payroll tax which is a direct disincentive for bus :i.ness in Lhj s P r o v i n c e , and w hi c h p u t.. s L h c' 111 a l:_ a decided disadvantage to other provinces of Canada? Mr. Speaker: rh(! hon. Lhe Min.i.ster of Finance. Dr. KitchNl: Thank you, Ml" . Sp1:!a k E!r.

We will not be eliminating the payrol1 lax. The payJ"oJ.J t.ax is not a hai"Sh tax on l:1us-:i.ness. UnclE:'!" the ci1"curnstancu, j_t -.:i.~; thE• most reasonab1e tax tJJ~~ could have No. 32 f-08

brought in this year. Some of the other provinces confronted with the Federal Government's proposal decided to increase personal taxes, and that is a very, very serious thing. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Kitchen: They increased personal taXE!S this year in light of the fact that the goods and services tax is coming in in January, which will transfer the burden from business to personal people. and that is the WJ"ong approach. The proper approach is what we did. And will defend that payJ"oll tax. bE!Cause in this particular circumstance it is the best tax we could have devised. Mr. Speaker: The han.

Member for Mount Pearl. a final supplementary. Mr. Windsor : Thank you, Ml" . Speaker. I want to point out to the Minister that his payroll tax is a tax on people, very directly on taxpayers of this Province. Some Han. Membe~s : Hear. hear! Mr.

Windsor: Let mE• ask the Minister this: How does the Minister justify thE! statEHTJent he just made in view of the fact that school boards in this Province have a payroll of about $38 rrril.lion a yt::~ar. and that by applying the $300,000 deduction times the number of schoo1 boards you can get a deduction of about . $9.3 mi11ion. which leaves about $28 mi1lion on which school boards have to pay payroll tax?

How does the Minister justify that. in view of the fact that School Tax Authorities raise about $28 miJ.lion and. thr:~refore. this is very clearly a tax on l:ax. tJJhich L19 May 11.. 1990 Vol XI..I is on the people? How does Lhe Minister explain that? Mr. Speaker : ThE:' hon. The Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Mr . Speake!", if ·the han. Mt::~rnber tJJould come to l:.he House of Assembly mOJ"E! f reqUE!nLl.y, instead of his one day a week - An Hon. Member: Oh, comt:~ on! Dr. Kitchen: realize - S 0 j 0 U r'r1 , hE' lJJO ll 1. cl Mr. Windsor: A point of privilege, Mr . speaker . Mr. Speaker: Ordr:'r. plt')ase!

Mr. Winsor: On d po"i.nt. of privilege, Mr. Speakc'r. I do not intend to sit hE!rE! jn t.hJ.~; House i.'lnd take abuSE! from Lhal: Mints l· .. ur like that.. a M:i.n".i.steJ" JJJho J"efuses to anstJJer questions. I lAJanL l:o make it ver·y c1eaJ" that I have as good an at:t:E!ndance J"eCOI"d in t:.his House as hE! does. and I hi'lve made a he11 of a lol. biqqer contribution than he has. SOITif Hon. M.:~rnbers : Hear. heal"! Mr. Speaker: The Chd.i.l" has ru] ed in the past and will rule ag0in that i.t. is noL PI"OPE'I" fo1" anyont'! to refer t.o the attendance or otherwise of Members in Lhe House.

I tJJould ask UH~ hon. Mi.n:i.ster t:o I"E•f"J"ain fi"OIII do-.lng that. Question Period has expired . Mr. Speaker : Order. please! I would like to t.~.JelcoJnE! to LhE! galleri.r:!S today. on behaJf of hon. ME:'I'nbers. twen l:y--fivc:! s t.udE!Il ts F1"om Frank RobeJ"ts Juniol" H:i.~Jh Schoo]. Foxtrap, accompanied by No. 32 RJ.9

twenty-seven students LaFl~che, Saskatchewan, with Principal of their school. Howard Whitty. Some Han. Members: Hear. hear! 0 0 0 Notices of Motion Mr. Speaker: The han. Minister of Justice. from t. h (:' Mr. the Mr. Dicks: Mr. Speak1?.r. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill enU.tled, 11

An Act To Amend The Registrati0n of Deeds Act . 11 Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr . Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, 11

An Act To AITIE~nd The Highways Traffic Act, 1988. 11 Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Order 2, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Order 2. It is moved that I do leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole. On mot:.ion, that thE~ House resolvE~ itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair . Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! L20 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Before the Committee rose last night, the Opposition House LE~adE!lA 1AosE~ on a po'i.nl: of Ol"der. fht'?.

Chai1A d:id not ru1e on t.hat po:int of order. fhe point oF or·dc:H' 1~o.1as that it requested the MinistE·r· of Social Services to table a document. The Che:d.1~ has n1Ied that according to Beauchesne, lj.95, the Minister of Socia1 Services has to table the document. rhe recipe book is a public docurnr::~nL, and the Minis b:•r ~~~~ad din:'C t·ly from that document. ~)o the Cha:i.l" has ruled that the M:i.nis L1:~r has l:.o table the recip~ book. The hon. l:he Minis Ll:!r oF ~3oci.al Sel~vicE~s. Ml". Efford: Ml".

Chc:dl"li'lcH1, I intended to table a copy but For some reason the copy had disappeared out. of rny dr·ai;.JI:!r. Il:. was thE~re last n:i~Jht l~o.JI'lf''l'l I 1E!Fl:. a t l: e n o 1 c l o c k . l3 u l: I 1~o.li 11 h d v 1:0 c o pi e s t a b 1 e d f o r E~ v E~ r· y M o rnl:) (! I" i n the House of Assembly. [ think there are about 5,000 sitting down in the office that we can distribute to anybody. Mr . Simms : SoHI!•bocly has s l..olen something from your desk . Mr. Efford: No. No, no I said it night lAJhE!Il I J.eFt, there now. l a1n :;1::!1·'i .ous . l~o.Jas l:.hE•r1:~ last but. it is not: An Han.

Member : (Inaucli .b1.e) . Mr. Efford: Okay. MIA. Chaj r·rnan. I IAJill have one to tab1e and there wi] -1 bE• copies provtci~C'd f'or· E!V1:•1"y Member oF the HoUS(! of ASSUiflb].y. B U t i t :i. S 11 0 t ~1e I" e n 0 IAI , I a HI q U j t. E' serious. Mr. Simms : His OIA11'1 co11eagues stole it . Mr . Efford: WeLl I arn qu:i'l..C:'• No. 32 IUO

serious, it is not here in my drawer. An Han. Member: That is one PrE!rn-ier autographed by former Peckford. Mr. Efford: That is another copy. Some Han. Member!: Oh, oh! Mr. Min, Simms: To Chairman . a point of order, Mr. Chairman : The hon. Opposite House Leader. Mr. Simms: Yes. I think the Minister has raised a very serious rna Lter here. Laugh as W"=~ might. The Minister is quite certain that the document he was asked to table was in his desk when the House closed at 10:00 o 1 clock last night. He caiTIE! back at 9:00 o 1 clock this morning and it is not in his desk.

I mean there is only one possible answer and that is that somE:~body stole property from the hon. Mernber 1 s desk. Now that is a SE!rious situation, not to bE! laughed at. The same thing somebody could something from rny the Premier think s E!riou s mat tE!r? potentially - could happen, come and take desk. Doesn 1 t that that is a or it could be An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Simms: Of course he does.

And I suggest to the Chairman of Cornrrd.tt.ees that he investigatE! thE:~ matter under l:his point of order and Cinder an investigation by thE• Minister of Public Works or, in fact, the Sergeant-at-Arms should be asked to investigate the matter. Because if somebody is taking something from another L2l May 11.. 1990 Vol XLI Mernber 1 s dE!Sk then that is a serious situation. Laugh as you might, it is a serious situation. An Hon . Member : He just found it. Mr. Simms: You found it? An Hon. Member: He just found it. Mr. Simms: So couJd we document tabled then, Mr. ~~r:· t l:.hat Chatrrnan? Mr.

Efforcl : I jus t tabled the document. Mr. Simms : the one you one there. No, r·~::~ad you a1ne to tab1e flnom, l:.hat. i.s Lh1?. Mr. Chairman : Order, please! ThE! hon . Pearl. the Member for Mount. Mr. Windsor : Thank you, fv1 r . Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, we cannot geL any answers from the Min:isto1r. of Finance in Question Period. And he ts so sca1ned oF mf:' now hu is going to run away. Let the rocord show that l:he Minisl:i?r' is 1oi.ke a jackrabbit this morning, he runs out of the CharnbE•r' LhE· m:inu l·:.c" tAll:> 1ook at him. An Han. Mernber : (Inaud:i.bh•). Mr.

Windsor: I arn allotAJed Lo say that l:.hE! Mtnis t.er just leFt thE! Chamber. I did no l: comrnen l: on Lhe Minister 1 s attendance. The MinistE!r does not knOt.!.J l:he lnules. It is time fo1n h'i.rn to lear·n. I am not talking about his aLtendance. Mr. Chairman : Order, please! Mr. Windsor: I am s i 1nply say inq he just J.eft the Charnbel", lAJh:lch is cr:~rtainly in order. As l:.he No. 32 R2:1

President of Treasury Board is now leaving thE! Chamber. The heat is getting to thr:'ITI, Mr. Chairman. So they are starting to bail out of l:he kitchen. They are starting to bail out, all of them. Now, Mr. Speaker, how can that Minister stand in the House of Assembly and say as he said today, that he has not increased any taxes on j ndividua1.s in this Province? What a deceitful statement for thE! Min -ister of Finance to make. He knows he cannot substantiate that. To try to suggest to the people of this Province that thE! payroll tax, which is a tax on labour, Mr.

Chairman, that. is what it is, it. is a tax on labour, and the Minister is trying to suggE!St that. there are no addi ·tional taxes on people. It is one of the most dishonest statements that I have eVE!r heard made in this House of Assembly. - And if thE! Minister wants to sit back and yawn and make faces, this kind of foolishness - that is thE! kind of respect that he has for the people of this Province. An Hon. Member : (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: Min.

Chailnrnan, the Minister should get one of his assistants, to get from Hansard the responses that he has given to questions in this House, if he wants to see some ·thing that lacks intelligence. It would be interesting to have a good look at the questions that have been asked to the Minister of Finance, good, legitimate, honest, intelligent questions, and hav•;:, a look at some of thE! foolish responses that tAle got. The Minister, Mr . Chair·rnan, across this Province, is the laughing stock of this Government. I Feel sorry For the other han.

L22 May 11, 1990 Vol XU Members opposite because there are some very good Members opposite. The Minister of Finance, Mr. Chairman, is a disgrace in this Province. He is being 1aughE•d at right across this Province, not only for the way hE' conducts himself, but fo1n thE! pol:iciE~S that he brought forward in this Budget. The Minister does not like to hear that, Mr. Chainnan. He refuses to accept that . But it is true. It very clear·ly is l:rt .ll?., Ml" . Chainnan. And he is trying to h'ide tl·lt:! Fact that he has increaSE!cl drarnatica11y taxes on peoplE! of t:hts P1novJncr::!. Well l:he game "is up, Mr.

Speakur, as l h E• p eo p 1 e oF l he PI" o u inc E:! n OlAI realize. An Hon. Member: Your' ou.m MernbE•J~s are not listenJng to you . Min. Wtnsor : My OlAJn Mf:•rJJI:J,,!I" S, Ml" . Speaker, know whal:. I am talking about. They do no L nE!ed to sit here. I am delighted to sE·•~ thE!re arE! a fE!IAJ hon. Mernbei"S opposJte. Because the hon. Mernbers oppos:i. ·te on the back benchE!S aru a 1oil.L1E! ashamed of l:he Minister of Fina"nc•:­ too, and his Budget. ~_r_,_ _ _f: f_f q__r_g . : No t 1 i k E! l y . Mr.

Winsor· : ThE- )Y do no l. rntncl listening to l:his bE!Cause they know every word I am saying is true, and they are secretly telling me, give him more. Nou.J, Mr. Speaker, no increase on taxes on p•~ople. HolAJ about the 1 per CE!nt on pe1nsonaJ. :i.ncoiTJe tax, Mr. Speaker, who "is that on? An Hq ._ll__._ME;mb~~: year'. rhat t;Jas last Mr. Winsor: last y E:~ar, No. 32 0 h, t t: Lua s announced it takes effect this R22

year. Only 1 per cent, Mr. Speaker, not ve1ny much. Personal income tax: That only raised $20 miLLion additional this year . That is all, that is not a tax on people. Personal income tax increasing by $20 million, that is not additional taxation the Minister wants us l:o believe. And rE!ta:ll sal~::~s tax, Min. Speaker, who pays that? $35 million addi tional retail sales tax this year. Who is going-to pay that, Mr ·. Speaker? Is it not the people oF this Province? And how about the additional cost of electricity in this Province, c\S a rE!SUlt of the fact that tht:!

Minister has increased the cos l: to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, by reducing, by eliminating the subsidy on PDD. $20 rn:i11i.on this year he is taking out of the pockets of people through Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. And $10 million is a guarantee Fee. $10 million h•:! is stealing from Hydro. It costs hirn nothing to put his name on a document and say this Province guarantees it, it is not a tax. No, but it costs the people of this Province because that $10 million will refJ.ect in the power costs oF thE:' people in this Province. Very directly it does. What foolishness, Mr. Speaker.

How sjmplE! is thE· Minis tE!r of Finance ir: he does not know t:hat an additional $30 million cost to NeiJJfoundland Hyd1no transfers to Newfoundland Light and Power and gets passed on to the people. Dr. Kitchen: Go back to schooJ.. Mr . Winsor : Mr . Speaker, he is hurting now, Mr. Speaker whc,~n he starts such low comments as that. L23 May J.J, 1990 Vol XLI And he ts obviously hurting. truth bothers him now. An Hon. Member: (InaudibJ.e). The Mr. Winsor : It will be interesting to see what kind of response he makes l:o sornr::! of these. How about gasoline tax, Mr. Speaker.

Gasoline tax this year is ~Jotng to net ti-lE:• Province an additional ~~4 rni11'ion. Who .is paying that? The M:ini s Lei" qo l. an $8000 allowance now, and a ~as card, so the people can pay t:ha l:. for the Minister. fhe Minister does not care about the cosl of gasoline. An Han. Member·: (lnaudib1e). Mr. Winsor: BecauSE! he hds go L a GoVE!r·nrnE!nt Cas Car·d. And Ll'llo! P1nernier stands hr:!J"e toclc:\y and pontificates and says- An Hon. Member: Did you have one? Mr. Winsor : I had one, yes. :1nd I do not apologized for it. Br:'cause I used it.

The• Minis Ler of Finance now has the nice little Four IAJhee1 dr·iv•:! v.:,hicle [ hdd, and I say it has not been in foL .Il" wheel dr·ive sinCE! he had it. HE! has not been outside the overpass. Because hE! does not know IJJhat. is go:i .ng on aJ·'ouncl this Province, Mr. Speaker. IF he cl·id, he would not come in with suc h stupid policies, as h•~ has Ln his Budget. NouJ, Mr·. SpE•aker, the Minister· has now got: an ~saooo car allo!JJance. We wiLl see SOlliE! fancy cars out in Front no1JJ, Mr. Speaker, t.hE•re is no qui.dE!lJ.nes anymore no1JJ. An Hon. Member : (lnaudib1e). Mr. Winsor : I beg your pardon.

An Hon. Member : (Inaud'ibh'). No. 3 2 r~2 3

Mr. Winsor: Some fancy cars now, Ml". SpN~ker, you wiJ.J. SE!e l:hE!rn now. The power t.l.lindows, sun roofs and everything elSE!, for $8000 a year, Mr. Speaker. For $8000 a year you can get a pretty nice car, $8000 a year allowance, ·that is what the Ministers are going to be given. An Hon. Member: You cannot. Mr. Winsor: You can. Well have a look at the onE! I arn driving now. A personal vehicle, which is a ·top of the line four wheel drive, si1nilar to the one the Minister of Finance drives, but it has everything in it, sun roof, po1.1.1er windows, potAJE!I" locks, you name it .

A lovely machine, and I have a trailer hitch on H:, if that is any of the Minister's business. It is a persona]. vel·l'iclE! and it costs me about $700 a month to lease that vehicle. So, the Ministers can get a pretty nice vehicle for $8000 a year . An. Hon . Member : (Inaudible) . Mr . Winsor: Yes . Seven dollars a month it costs that vehicle. hundred rne For An Han. Member : (Inaudible). Mr . Winsor: Seven hundrE•d doLlars a month. And you can put a lot of gas in a car for $4,000. An Han. Member : (Inaudible) . Mr . Winsor: You can put a lot of ga s j n a car wi t.h a crE!di t card.

And the Premier may have never looked at ht s Government Card but iF the Premier would look at the handbook that is issued with the Government gasoline card he will see all of the things that the Ministers can now put into their own car. L24 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Premier Wells: Have you eVE!r heard of change? Mr. Windsor: Oh. WeJ.l, if the Premier werE! to table ·it, iF the Minister OJ" U1e Premier tAJil1 tab]e new guidelines ·- you have them I assume. I will yield for the Premier to table them. You do not have them yet. You may change them now l:hat i·t has been br'ouqh t to your attention.

A bit J.ate now isn't it, now that:. thu scarn has bE• en shown. You may c hangc:· Lh ern now and bring in some new guidE!linr:'s, now that you haue l:lC!E!n exposed. But the Pr1:~rnier tAJi.] .J. have,, a look at Lhe guidelines that are released with credit cards that are in that booklet, the handbook, as s1:!t For use oF GOU(!r'nlllent credit cards.

And he will fjnd that. all normal ITla"inh:!nancc• and J"E!pairs that: can be clonE· in UltramaJ" Seruice St.al: .ions, bE!Cl'lttsr?. they haue the contract at this poin ·t in t::i.rne, but you can IJO in there and you can get those t:hjngs d o n E! tAJi t h i n c ''' r t:. a i n 1 i 1 n i. l: a l: i o n s . But: you can certainJ.y gr:•l. gl~e ase and oil change, and you can IJIC!l : tires and t.:i rE!S repaiJ~ed, you can get car washes , an nice shiny Wcl s h and wax anytime you go throu gh. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: Ah, pubJ."ic accounts. Yes, su1oe . So we tAri11 SE!e noJAJ .

They peop]e of the Province, Mr. Speaker', arE! going to be payinq an exlra $4 million this year' in gasoi im~ t.i:'\X, but: that is not going to hu r-t Lh e Minisl:r:'rs bE•cause l:h,O!y halH~ a credit card to use in your own car. Now the Premier tAJill haurO! l:o issue a nE!lAJ Cabi.nlo•t djTecl.:i.ue on that, because it very clec.u'lY statE!S that a credit canl i.s No. 32 R24

issued for a particular specific vehicle. And the licence plate numbe1n of that veh"i.cle is on the credit card, so it cannot be used. It is not acceptable for any other vehicle except that car. So I assume now the Ministers are going to go buy their own cars and then the Gove1nnment tAJill issue a credit card with their own personal vehicle licence number on it, so that. al1 of thE•se things can now be applied to their own personal vehicles. Let that be very clear, Mr. Speaker. An Hon. Member: There thing as honesty Government. is such a in th'i.s Min. Windsor: Thr:~rE! is such a 1:hing as honesty. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we have not seen ·a hE•ck of a lot of it, I tAJill t€~11 you that. We have not SE!en a heck of a lot of it. There is certainly none of it. in the MinistE•r's budget - the most deceitful document that any Minister ever had the gall to table in this House of Assembly is the Moinister' s budget. And on top of the fact that he:~ is tota11y incapable of dE!fending it, and the reason he cannot defend it, Mr. Speaker, is he knot~..Js it is a fraudulent document. Fines and li.CE!nCE!S, Min. Speaker, he srl!':!aked those in.

It lAJas interesting this morning to hear the Minister of Environment and Lands indicatE! that:. fE!eS in parks haVE! not increased. I arn pl~:!ased to hear that.. That just means that every other fine and fee and licence has gone up more. Anybody tAiho tJJants now a birth certificate has to pay more. I daresay a s l:.udE!nt coming out for the surnrnr:~r wanting to work as a waiter or waitress, I dare say that cost has L. 2 ~i May 11, 1990 Vol XLI gone up now quite dramatically, is it? To get a waiters licence. Mr. Walsh: I don't think so . Mr. Windsor: Oh, l:he Mernbt:H' fo1n Mount Scto dOE!S not think so?

I challenge hoim to check it out. He is interested in tourism. He is a great proponent of tourism and has made a great contribution t.o tourism and is concerned about it. I invite him to check it out, to see if waiters licences have gone up now. Have a J ook at that. I wonder if tour·isl:. hutTII?. licences have gonE! up, and .loungu licences, and bar licenc1~s, Ol" all of these sorts of licences and fees, ~ave they increased? An Hon. Member: (Inaud:i.bJ.e) . Min. Windso1n: The hon . qent.J.E•llliHl knOlJJS fuJ.l lAJeJ.J. l:hey haVE! bE!Ci'l\ , l~>E• hE! i.s in t.h<;! bus:i.n.::'ss.

A Joi.t.t .].("! bit of a conflict here. He cannot say too much can hr:~, 01~ hE! is just going to haVE! to pay il: hirns1'!lf. He is just going to havE• to pay t: hem , b i tr::'! hi s to n q u .::~ a n d s a y ·, ' 0 h we11, I will have to pay i.t I guess.' But he knotAJs. HE• knotAJS. It may not ·.irnpact on a bi t:J business operation like he had, but it wi11 on the J.:i.t.l:.lP, srnaJ.J.,:•I" lounges and taverns and 1ittle, smaJ.ler restaurants and hospitality homes.

I bel:L.::'ve nntAJ, i.s theine not a J.ar·ge tncrease ·i.n l:he Fee that has l:o b.:' paid by t:hE· Harbour charters now to have a bar licence on their vessel? Maybe the Member for Mount Scio lAiould like to have a look al: Lhat and see if that is fair now. How much did hE! pay so he can provide a little toddy of screech when he sails people out th1nough l:.he harbour. I believe it is a couple of hundred dollar's a y1:~ar that. he has to. pay for that privilege. And he probably does not take in No. 32 r~ 2 ''>

that much in total in what he sells on his little vessel. An Hon. Member: that? A1ne you against Mr. Windsor : I am not against anybody who is trying to run a nice litt.le t.ourist operation . It is a class tourist oper·ation . I invite the Minister to go down. I am sure they would be delighted to take him out and give him a n1n and show the product that they are promoting and selJ.ing here in l:.his Province. An Hon. Member: I have my own boat. Mr.

Windsor : I know you have your own boat and we know where it I;.Jas built, but. it would be nice to have -- tLn_.Ji .2.!.!. ..:._ .. _!'1_1?:.....f!l b_§!..r. . : N o v a S c o t i a . Mr. Windsor: - nice to have the Ministeln go out. and sail out on the harbour charters and take t.ha t tour. It is a very, very good tourist package, a good tourist package, and no1JJ his licence has · gone up, I think you wiLL Find, by probably over $100 t.his yec.'\r. Maybe he cloE:'sn't have a high payroll, so he probably cloesn 1 t h a v e to pay pay r o 11 tax . I wi 11 give him that.

He !;.Jill probably sneak underneath that onE!. It is just as well he is not a big operation; if he was a big operation he would certainly pay. Of course, not on 1 y is t. he fee gone up for his licence, but ther·e is another· $2. '.> million be:i.ng sneaked out of people's pockets by thE! Minis tE•r of Finance . He tr·ied to sneak that one through the House. ~_r_:__,_~t!_a tr..!~!_~.!J. : 0 r d E! In , p J. E! a s E! ! T h e hon . Member's time has elapsed . L26 May 1·1, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Ml'··. Chairman. I will get back at him. He is not going to rest that easy. Mr.

Chairman : The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: fhank you, Mr . Chairman. I think it has been six ·ty-six hours since u.1e gaV E! l:.ht:> Budget SpeE!Ch, and t.hei"E! have bt'•en s om e v E! I" y q o o d c o !Tilllt'' n t ~,~ rna d e , :i n rliY ViC:!IAJ, inclucl:l .ng SOITIH that. IAJC'I''f" madE! on l:hc:! oppositE! ~:;iclt:o of Lhe House by one speaker. I won't identify that speakc?.r yel:, Mr. Chai1nrnan, I am just gcd .ng 1-:.o ],e:oavc::• thc:nn hanging fot" a tAJh:i.lf:~ .

I rE!ally fE!el that aLl +hat hasreally come From across Lhe House - most of thE! good cotni Ttc::•nt. s have come fr·o1n t.h:is side actually.

I l"ernernbel" the Mc:•tnbel" for Le!~.Jispol"l:e and his eluctclat.i .on of the effc:~ct of thE! payro11 tee>< on businessf:'S, a11d I rt:'rne!nb er comments rn<:tde by Lhe ME•rnber ·s for' Placentia and EL'lglc'! fhVE!r, and other Members, quite appropriate comments l.·.o be made. ·But: l:.he Members opposite seem to have developed a style of pE!rsonal invective, name caJ]ing wit.houl:. delivel"ing the substance:' on tAih:Lch the narnes a1"e :1-:.o be called, c.'lncl that is wrong in my view.

If they t hi n k they are go i n g L o i n l . :i. rn i cl ate me by calLing !TIE! names, l:h E!'/ dt"c:> going t:o have t.o gE :•t: up ·.i.n the morninq. Because, you knotAJ, callinq narnHs is sorneLhinq !Ale IAIE'I"E' all used to !AlhE!n !AlB IAJE!Ine grOIAJi.ng up as chilclrE:'n, yeah, yeah, and all this old st:uf'f. And l:h .is is their type of inte]ligenL discussion. Now the hon. Memb er, my Fri end fr·orn Po1nt de Cr·avE!, suqqc::~sts that: he IJJould give LhE:'In 'lessons in aslcing CJIH:'stions. Ml". Cha:ir·rnan, 1 really believe we are going to No. 32 1~26

have to conduct classes in analyzing the Budget and in analyzing the Estimat~~s, so ·that they will go over the Estimates bit by bit. and ask questions. It is quite appropriate and proper to ask questions. If a certain vote has gonE'! up, why has it gone up? If a certain tax is being imposed, why has it been done? And make cornments based on the Budget. But there is not much point in calling nam.::~s. We:~ have b~;!en caJ.led names altAlays and tAlE! arE• not intt::~rest.E!d in that, it makes no difference. An l-Ion. Member: You havr:~n 1 t evt:'n been able to defend yourselves. Dr.

Kitchen : have been dotng, won 1 t repeat the An l-Ion. Member: Dr. Kitchen: That is calling names - tAJhc'lt t.hey names. I For sixty hours. WeLl, not quite, becaUS(' we havE:~ been of the timE!. But there has been fifty calling. talking

part I would say hours of name This is a good Buci~Jet.. NotAl I am going to s ·tart. my lessons l':o MernbE!rS oppositE!; I am going to hav1:! a series of tE!n minute seminars to educate these people acl~oss the tAlay. OnE! of the M.:~rnbel~s there didn 1 t knotAl the diFfel~ence bettAleE!n VC:H'bal and o1~a1 this morning. He was confused bE! t.tAleen vE•rbal and or·al. It 'is <:liTlazing! But I am not going to get. into that., I arn going to sl~.ick with thE~ Budget. A Budget is a financ{al plan. You fi~ure out how much money you have and tA.Jhat t.he important things a1~r:~ on tA.Jhich you rnu s t s pE!rld it.

You havE! to figure out your priorities. rh.:~ Minis h'r of Social Assistance has his tAIOI"i<E:'rS heJ.pin~j PE:'OPlE• develop budgel:.s so that people L..27 May ll, 1990 Vol XLI tAdth Lirrri.ted incomE~s utn :LivE=~ tAJ:i t hin t heir buci~Jet, and he says they say certain things to people: You know you have to make sure you are t;.H:!ll sht:~lbH'E:'d, that you havE:~ food, that you have things for your children and so on, and that you cut ou t t he fr i J.ls or cut dotA.Jn on them.

Bu t you can carry that to the extreme, becaus1:' a poor pe1nson, I suppose, does nE:!E!d thE:' odd bo t tJ.e of beel" once -:i.n a 1Alhi1e. You cion 1 t tAldnt to say too much abc>ut. that:. ancl things of that nature, you can bE~corne too harsh. But·:, basica 1 Jy, a budget is a strict plan by wh i ch you live with f inancial rna nag E:~ mE! n t . A n d l: h <'l. t- i s tAl h a 1~. IAI e have, bE! CaUSE! tAle in Ud.s Pl"ovoi.nce, Mr. Chair'ITian, have t~g per CE!nL oF our rt:~venues corn i ng f r'OIII CH.LatAla.

WE~ a1ne nol: a Sl"l1F-supporl:.i.nq Province from the point o r view o f the Budget, tAle al"l'~ tn exacl~ly t.:hE! same position as any person with a very limited income. Now, then, we are living within a limited Budget. We have l~.o be . vei''Y careful on tAlhat tA.Je spend OUI" money, tAle have t o be VE!J~y calnEd:·ul how we raise money, we have to look at tAJhat:. tAle can r·a·ise, i:'ind IAII~ have to be very careful about going in LhE:~ hole. NotAl, l·:he Members opposite, the last seven YE~ars they tAlE'Ine theine, r'<Hl in l..lw hole every year. Mr. Efforcl : Every single year . Dr .

Kitchen : E v E:'l'' y s in ~11 r:~ yea t··, they ran her in t.:he hole and budgeted in the ho1e, and it c<.·liTie t 0 [:he p 0 i 11 t W he In!"' 0 U I~ C I~ E! l:li t t~a t:·oi.n~~, at on~~ lime, tAJas lotAJer·ed, and tAle now, Mr. Chaii"IJI<Hl, have,~ Lhe lowest credit rating in Canada. With the econorntc pr·ob1E!JnS tAl~~ are having tAl:i: th respect to the F:i.sl-wt"Y as a result of quotas and l:.hl:! high inteJ"est J"at.es f1~oJr1 OU. alAJa, tAle haVf! l:o be (:~Xl:I"E:'ITH'!ly cat"E•Fu1 lE!St No. 32 R2'/

it go dotAJn. Because if it goes down any tTIOI"e, and I do not tAJant to become an alarmist here, that means we will not be able to bortnotAJ money very easily. And when we do, the interest rates will be higher. And that is the problem. We must be very careful about how we finance our budget. We just cannot borrow and charge it up to the future. Because when you do that, you put the burclt::Hl from the present generation to the future generations, and lo~d the burden on your youngsters. We cannot do that. We cannot just borrow and borrow money from Household Finance or wherever it is, and do j_t: l:hat: way.

What tAJe have to do is be very prudent with respect to our borrowing, unlike what has been happening in this Province in the past SE!Ven YE!ars. Last year, we decided we would balance our budget if tAle could at all, and we did everything tAJe could to balance the budget. And this year we are hoping we will be able to balance our budget; we arE! proposinq a budget that tAiill comt~ out balanced. Hopefully, it will. An Hon. Member: ··-·-·- ·----·- ·-- ·--·-·-··--- (Inaudible). .D r __ ..:. __ .JS.tt.f...b.f: .. !:! : I am n o t s u r e , because interest rates already went up 2 per cent, very recently.

We went to borrow money the other day at 12 7/8, wher(:'as last yee:H' WE! could havr:~ gotten it for 10 - up 2 per cent. On $100 mi1lion, that is $2 miJ.lion extra per year we would have to pay. We are going to bon'OIAI $500 rrri11ion this year we anticipate, both to pay back previous loans and to finance our capital expenditures. That will cost us an additional $10 million if interest rates remain high. So we have to be extremely careful about our borrowing, unlike the previous L.28 May 11, 1990 Uol XLI people .

Now, the other thing wr:~ have to do, we have to, rather than botnrOIAI - the last thing you want to do is raise taxes. The last thing any people want to do is raise taxes. We had no intentions of raising taxeS this year. W"=~ hopE!cl lAII:! could get by without rai sing any significant amount of taxl '>-S ·- a fetAl aclj ustrnents pet~ haps. So lAihat. tAJe decided to do lAJas look at-: our' expenditures . WE ! s tar 'tE•d tha t last year by downs izing l.he Cab:-i.nr:~t, and that Si';lVE:!cl U!> SOITIE• money, and notAJ WE! dE!Ciclod l:o h (~Vt:! another look at it .

And it is ve1ny hard, I do not·: rnincl te] .li.nq Mernbetns of t.he House, :i.t. :i!; a VE!I"'.Y difficult thing to downsize Government. We looked at va1":i .ous Government Department s to see if there were functions be ing perfor-med that net~d not-. be peinforrn~::~d, and !Ale ·ir:IE~nt:-:if:i.r::!cl t'l few. We deciciE!cl tAle lAIOuld lnt:'ciUCt:' the Public Service in somE :! ar·ea s, and it has been very hard; even in arc:~as which tAle fE•eJ. IAIPI"E! not hiqh priority. Now theinE:! has been a J.ot of La1k about the hospital schools Lhe past fE!W days, the tE!acher·s in thr::• h o spit a 1 s .

No doubt l: here t1.1a s some useFuJ.ness to these, some, but not rnuc~. The very people who were there with crococli]e tears and got up and pushed l:hi s asH lAI e w r:• r· e cl ern o n s a n cl v E' 1" y b a cl people, were the people who decided the priority tAJoulcl bE• Lo close hospital beds. We had a choice: we opened hospital bed s, and we closed areas tAle Fell: IAIE!I"e not absolutely essent.ial. You have to 1ook i:tt tAJhal: you do. IF you have a lim it ed budget, you cannot spend it all on things which are not as essunt ia1 as things you must have. So that: is what we had to do. No . 32 I~ 2 8

In our Department of Finance we looked at the gas inspectoi"S and we felt this was an activity which was not as USE!ful as it was once, and we could eliminate these tAJithout sC:~rious consequence to our operation. But it has been a hard struqgle to do that. You know, it is vei"Y difficult to downsize thE! Pub1ic Service. But whC:~re it is necessary, it has to be done so that expansion can takE:~ place in other areas, perhaps. When you havE:~ a limi lE!d budgEd: you havr,~ to make difficult choices: Will I sp~"nd it this way, or lAJi11 I spend it that. tAJay?

You have this problem of deciding what is important and what is not important, lAJha t. is more important than somethinq else. It is a very difficult question. We al"e attempting to downsize our expenditures. We have just started it, and lAJe will contintH" that. Next year we hope there tAJi1l be o ·ther al"eas whC:~re we can save money for the public, so that we can bring in a better program in something elSE! that has to ·bE! clone. The rnain point I IJJant to make is that in this Province tJJe have l:irnited revenues; tAle have certain priorities which must be achieved.

Our health care tAJas in a mto'SS IJJhE!n we took over; WE~ wantE!d to improve the hE:~al th cai"C:~ system. ThE:~ education system was not doing very well. We have improved t.hr:' education sys tE:!rn, and hopefully WE! tAJi.ll do moi"E:~ on that. Then we havE:~ to get on tArith our developrnE:~nt; we havt':! laid the foundation for development. Now you look at expendi tui"C:~s and, as I say, it: is vei"Y difficult to downsize expenditures. We have tried, and we are making some substantial progress. We looked at. the cars - it is an interesting way.

There is rE~ally no rE!ason 1.29 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI fol" spE!nding unnec~~ssary money on vehicles which are not used vei"Y much, so lAJe do not spend it on that. And thel"e a1"e o t:hel" ai"E:!aS we are going to have to attend to. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member 1 s time has elpased . Some Han. Members: Heal", heal"! Ml". Chairman : The hon. the Mr::,rnbel" f or Tr i ni ty North. I have recogniZE!d t:he hon. Membt:>l" for Trinity North. Ml". Hynes: Sort"Y! you, Mr. Chairman . I clj cl no L hei;1r· Mr.

Chainnan, it. g'.iUE!S ITH~ <::JI"Ual pleasure to be able to stand in t.his House and takE:~ pal"l: . .in l:.hi.~. debate. I do not.. '"'·l~;h to concentl"at<:~ my E!ffoi" l:.s OJ" 111y remarks solely on the Executive Council portion oF thE! Budg~:!l:., ' r wiJ. 'I ] eave that to rny ITIOI"e ] <:~ar'n<c'cl fri<::~nds who arE! qut te ce:<pable, I am SUI"e, of picking out l:.he nitty--gl"itty pieces oF Jni"oJ"I'Ilal:.ion tJJh.i.ch need 'to be cl.ivulgecl t~o Lh(~ people of this Province. Mr.

Chair-man, I li.JOIJld 1-.i.k<:'! l:.o speak about the Budget in genera], mol"e paJ"ticulal"ly lAJhat: b<:,neFil:.s the District of Trinity North will accruE:~ as a resul.t oF it.. L<~st night, in this Legislature, Lhe Member For Bellevue spoke about the White Hills Ski Resort in Clarenville, and he indical:.ed he lAJc:1S sure that I suppol"ted i.t... I do support it Vt:!I"Y fully, Ml". Chairman. It. has br-ou~Jht a qn~at deal of economic benefits, not only to thE! C1a.J"envi11e <:1J"E~a. but to the other two outlying Disl:ricts, the District of Bellevue and the District of Terra Nova.

But I support the expansion No. 32 1~29

of the White Hills DevelopmE!nt as an expansion unto it:se1f. Bul: if it is this Government's plan to develop the White Hills at the expense of lhE! fishery, then, Mr. Chairman, I do not support it, and I am sure you wiLl. not find ver'y many individuals in the Province who would support something like that. But the White Hills Ski Resort has and will, I am sure, broing a l.ot. of economic bE!nefits to rny Distr':i.ct. Mr. Chairman, thr:'re were a couple of things I looked for in this Budget. As a matter of fact, onE! in par ticulatn I was hoping would be announced in last year's Budget, but it u.Jas not .

On April 19, 1989, the then Member for Trinity North, Mr. Brett, publicly announced that approval tJJas given For three hospitals in central Newfoundland to acquire the services of a mobile CAT scanning unit. The mobile CAT scanning unit, Mr. Chait"rnan, was to be used between the hospitals located at Clarenville, Gander, and . Grand Falls. As I just indoicated, thr:' Member for Trinity North a·t that time announced that approval was given. However, when l:he l'li:;!lJJ GovernmE!nt took over that was thtc' end of the mobile CAT scanning unit for those three hospitals.

Given that there are, and I can be corrected, onJ.y tu.JO such units in NetJJfoundland, a mobile unit to be used between the three hospitals would certainly have been of tremendous benefit to that portion of the Province. I looked forward l:o an announcE!rnent in this Budget, but, again, it tJJas not . forthcoming . Probably the Minisl:er of Health, at sometime in his remarks in l:his debate, can indicatE! IAJhat Covr:~rntnent' s plans are tAli lh regard to that unit.

L30 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI The other announcement I was hoping f o J" .in t.hi s BudgE•l:. tAla s l:: he announcement: that first: year uniuersity courses would be offered at L.he Eastern Cotnrnuni ty College at Clarenville. Renovattons wr::!rE! completE•d, Mt". Chairman, wil:h the inl:entoion of offering the courses this coming 5eptr:~mber.

I 1·1ave tJJr'ittt::'n l:he Minister of Education on several occasions, and I havE• spolu:•n t<Jit:.h him pE!Y'sona11y, but I stJJ.J have not JneceiVE!cl a coJnnd.trrwnt.: onE! lAJay or the other as to whether courses are going l:o be offered or whether thE!Y are nol going lobe off "E!red. I have nol: been ablE! Lo <JE!l·:. a commitment From the MinJsL.er or Education .

I hope hE• r'l~a] iZf:'S lhat we now have sLudenls graduating fJnl)ln a1l ar'ound Lh<:- ClarenvilJe area, from Bonavista Y' i g h t l: o , I g u c• s s , p o In L j o n s o f I. h 1:• BE!J.levue D:l.s Lrict ancl dotAJn in t.he upper portion of l:he Burin Peninsula. These studenl:s are gooing to be atl:E!ndJ .ng univ1:'rsi. Ly, and they are anxiously awaoiting the knowledge of wheLher or not: the courses will be offered oin Clat"envillE!.

Ptnobably al:. sornr:;! time during his speech :i.n lhis House the Minisl:er of Education can indicate, ancl indicate quickly, whether or not Lhe courses w:i.ll be oFFered l:his corning September. Thi~ MinistE:~ln of Eclucat.i.on, ag.,\in last ni~Jht, made a V(~J"Y (;!]oquenL speech out1irl'ing c>.ll. Uw inct"eases to the various school boards around the Province . And [ have gJ"E:~at adnt .iJnation fotn lhe Mi nj st .PJ" of Ed u c a t. :i o n . 1-1 e IAJ a s <Hl E! o I my pr'ofessor's at thE! Urd.V(H'sity, back in l:he early 1960s, bul:. I hav~C• a fE!ar, Mr'.

Chairman, and the Bonavista-Trinity-PlacenLta Int(:!gJnatecl ~:)choo1 Boat"d has a Fear, l:hat all the increases which are go:ing to be corning their ' tJ.Jay No. 32 1no

a1"e going 'to be us eel to pay 'the electricity bLlls For the various schools it ope1"ates. The $30 million subsidy that was removed by this Government to Newfoundland and Labr·ador Hydro lAiill come out of the pockets of the operators of the schoo1 boar·d, as well as the payroll tax - they are going to have to pay thr:1 pay roil tax. The inc1"eases J.ook ~JOOcl on papE!r, but what are they goinq to amount to in actuality? I do not think very many br:1nE!fits are going to accrue to schooJ.s. Mr. Chaii"ITian, th.::1re we1"e a couplE:' of good point.s in the Budget, and I wiLl. give the Govet"nment:.

Pl"aise t.uhere I see fit. I t.uant to commend personally the Minister of Social Services for bringing in, or announcing at least, fifty new Front-line positions t~.Jithin l:he Department of Social Services. He 'is to be commended, and so is the Government. I was EXE!cutiVE:1 Assistant to the Minister of SociaJ. Services and I know something about what social workers have to go through in this Province. But I do have a concern in that regard, and it. is simply that qualifiE!d individua1s aJ"e not going to be found to fill those positions.

And whE!n I talk abou ·l: qualified individuals, I mean individuals who have a bachelor of social work degree. Mr. Efford : They are not to be Found (inaudible). Mr. Hynes: I hav~~ a conCE!rn that they wiJ]. not b.::1 found. A lot of the people graduating with a bachelor of social work degree are not going into the DE!pal"tment of Social Servic<"!S, and thr:' Minis tel" knotJJs that. They are Finding other Departments - the Department of Health, for example. L31 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Efford: I suggE!St you qutt while you are ahead. Mr. Hynes : is that? Oh! Why is that? Why An Han. Member: try you. Do no L 1E!

L h'i.rn .~_r._.:.... ___ ... !::! . ..Y_I'!.~ ... ? .. : T h t::11" (! a I" n n o t e n o u 9 h social · lJJOI"kE!I"S gr·Clcluati.n~J t.h'.i.s year to fill those Fifty positions. Thr:~re aJ"r::! not. enou~Jh social workers graduat'i.ng wilh a bach.::'lOl" of soctal tJJOI"k cir:'!':JI"E!~:! t:o f'i.ll those positions. Hot.u,~vE•r, [ commend the Department in that regard. Mr.· Chair·man, I co1nrnc:H1d, I lAJill not br:~ 1oikr:1 t.h1:! ME!ITibPI" fol" LaPoi.le. I refE•I~ to h il'll as a mugwump, and a niU91AJUrnp is an Australtan btrd which sits on a fence with its mug on one stele and its wump on the ot.her. M1~.

Chairman: Oi"clc:'r, please! The han. Member 1 s· tirne is up. Mr. Hyn~s: Okay . I lAJi.ll ret.ur·n. Ml". Chairman : rhe han. l. h<:! Min'i.ster of Finance . D1-:.. Kitche _o_: Ml". Chai .l"rnan, my second semtnar will be entitled, The Big Rock Candy Moun t ain. l-Ion. Mc:>rnbers lAJill I"E:!ITJemb(:!l" l:.hat cluJ"ing the depression years people always Felt. the future would be bet.t.er because it could not. be any worse, so one of the sonqs l:ha l:. lAJas qoinq around was ce1lled The Big Rock Candy Mountain. Mr. Efford : Sing it for them . Dr. Kitchr:'l'l: .I can sing it, but:.

J w'i11 just give you the refJ"a'.i.n. 'Where the roast ducks spr'ings/ And the coconut sings/ In the icE:' cold soda fountain ... ' What ULi.s means, Mr. Speaker, is a No. 32 I~ 3 1

commitment to the materialistic philosophy that things tAJ".i,ll alt.vays g e t be t t e r - t hi n g s wi 11 g e t better. Everything is going to get bettc:'r, so you can run her in the hole this YE!ar, because next year you will be alright, you see. This is the philosophy, the big rock candy mountain philosophy of Members of the Opposition. Now, we are living in a world, Mr. Chairman, t.o.Jhr:'r'E• thr:~ l:l'ig rock candy 111ountain philosophy is obsolE!te. This is a finite world. We are living on a srna11 planet, a lot of people, many, many people.

We have abused our environment, we have taken our resources and wasted our resources, and we have to take appropriate steps to cope with the Future on a global situation. Especially is that true in Newfoundland. FoJ~ 450 years, Mr. Chair·man, people in this Province lived, as far as fishing is concerned, in harmony with their environment. We caught fish and the resource was therE:' the:' nE!Xt year, and the year after, and the year afl:er. And we developed a very skil.lful society, a highly educated society frorn the point of vir:~w of coping with the environment.

People could do all sorts of intricate, skil1FuJ. things we learned about and wer'E! passecl on, not through a Formal education system, but through another education systern which was very valid. Skills were passed on; skills which were very difficult to learn were taught from fat.hE!r to son, and nE•ighbor to neighbor, and mother to daughter, and it tAJas a very highly skilled society, one which was labour intensive. Look at the fishing industry. We val.ue-added. WE! ccwght our fi.sh, tAle sp1it it, we salted it and dried it- value added. L32 May 1.1, 1990 Vo1 XU Then a fE!W yr:'cH'S ago. MJ".

Chai1nrnan, something changt::~d. Out' technology got out of control; t.o.Je brought in the draggers. I am not against draggers. but they ciJ"a~Jqecl it off the ocean and before you km'W it, within thirty or four·ty years our· draggers and thE! foJ~eign draggE!rs gutted the J"esouJ~cco!. They guttE!d the J~esour·ce and not.o.J we ·have a problem. We have a proble1n in our fishE!ry.

What IAICo! cl:icl lAJaS concentrate on quant:i.t:y ·­ catch it, ship it ofF to the United States, catch it., ship it off l:o the Lln:it.ed Stal:es. !"his 'is an industrial strategy, the same industrial strategy which caused the pollution across the world. It is a stral:E:~qy whoich is tol:ally inappropriate For the future of mankind and this planel:. What tAJr:! have to do is live within the capabilities of OUJ" J~esouJnce. W(! have to recognize that our resource in the Fishing 'industry is finitE:!, and t:.hat concenLr·at.:i.on on quan t.i ty ·is not l:hE• solut'ion.

What we haVE! to br~ doing ois concentrating on value -added; we have to dE:~VE•1op J~E:•lati.ons h:i .ps JAJ:i t.h other countries, with Japan and tJJith the far Fast. as lAJE:•J.] a~; IAlilh l:he United States and Canada. Wr:! have to live within tht:'• J"esouJnce and we have to add value. Now, this mE!S sage is st.artinq to corne throuqh frorn a var·iety of factor's. but we have to live within the capabilities of that J~esour·ce. We had a sustainab1e society.

We no 'longer havr:• a sustainable sociL:.l.:y, and t.o.Je have to restore, the be st t.vay we can, a netAJ sustatnablE! soctety, not like we hacl bE.foJ"E~. but we have l:o live within the balance of that resource . So, the big rock candy mounlain philosophy of ever -expanding, larger plants, larger everything, assembly 1tne techn:iques in everything you do, is not. an No. 32 R32

appropriate philosophy. Now, the other thing I want to say has to do with the forest industry. The same thing occurred. but not to the same extent. We lived with the fot"e s t industl"Y for 4-00 or 500 years. I do not think we were successful there, because I remernbE!r you could see thE• hi11sides bein~J chopped dotAJn as people neE~ded lAJOOd. But thE•re was altAJays wood Further away. If there was no wood in ConcepU.on Bay, in behind Carbonear. you could always go over to Trinity Bay and gE!t sorne.

We still started chopping down the resource, but we J.i.VE!d in more-or-less harmony with our fot"es t rE!Source. We certainly did not gut out the forests, but tAle brought in the big paper companies. And they tAJE!I"e good, I am not opposed to that, but we exceedE:'d the resource. a'nd tAle now have some problems there. We have to be careful tAli th that resource. We have to make sure the resourCE! is there forever, and the notion that all you have to do is chop, chop, chop and export i.t is not an appropriate manner of doing it. What we have to do, in my thinking, Mr.

Chairman, is think about a sustainable lifE! in this Province, and in the world generally, and that mE!ans we have to live within our means, we have to identify our resourCE!S. we have to not concentrate on quantity bu ·t concentrate on adding vaJ.ue tAJherever we can, adding value to eVE!ry speci.E!S oF fish, process it, do i l: up in s rna 11 packages • ask the Japanese what kinds of products they want. and we will produce in the forrn they want it. I believe, if we can adopt that approach. things will be very good for t)s.

L33 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI A 1 S 0 , M I" , C h at I" rna n , I lAI a 11 t t 0 h a V E! a cornrnent on soci.al inst.:il:.ut·ions. In the past, our· big pt"oblE!ITI in education, for example, was numbers. We had rnany, many students we had to throtAJ E~ducat.ion at in a very quick way, and we developed these large institutions, large buildings, huge schools, the larger the bet.ter. That was LhE• phLLo~;ophy that was permea~oi.ng Nort:h America. Now we clon 1 t haue 160,000 sl:uclenl:s, tAJo c.u•c:- dotAJI1 l:o dround 1.00,000 and <.IJ"opp"i.ng. ::;o thE! same?. is true.

Wha l: is Lt"U(! about the fishing resource is true about the human resout"ce. We have fewer people. But we have the mechanism in place'! as iF WE:! hdcl many rnor'E!. The rnechani.srn LAir:> hau1:! in place has l:o be addrE!SSi:•d iHld altered. We haue Lo cope wit:h srnaJ.ler· nurnbE!rs. va1ue adcil'•d. lrJe haVE! to acid quaJ.ity eclucal..i.on to fE~tAJer people. And l:he 1n1~l:hodoloqy that has been used, the large institutions with the specialized people doing specialized things, just the same as it does not work in these large indusl:rialized plants, is not going Lo tAIOI"k in this.

We haVE! to I:J(' cai"Ed:-u] _ or lAJhat lAJe are doing. We haUE! l:o value add, !"ather than concenl:Tat.E! on quantity. And the ins l:i.l:_u l:.oi ons tAle have established tAJ:.iJI haue Lo be altered. Ot.hertAli.se, tAlE:' tAI'i .ll h a v f:' a h a J. f cl o z r:' n v e 1'· y 1 a I" ~J e institutions. and we tAJU '1 bE! bringing pE!ople frorn g1· ·eat d i s t a n c e s t o p a r t i c i p a t. H i n l: 1·1 C! rn . It is not the larg1:~ in~; l:j.tut ·i ons that mat ·ters, tAlhat mau_-.E~rs is Lh1:! quality of education whoich occurs.

And t·:his can occur in a small place. in a srna11 s chao], as lAJe11 as it. can occur oi.n a larr301" schoo1, but it. has to happE'n in d different fashion. And the technology o·F the pas l:. is not necessarily the t:E•chnoJ.o~JY of No. 32 1'3 3

the prE!Sent and the future. WE! have to think about these things, not only in education, but in fisheries, and forestry and everything else. The big rock candy mountain philosophy is gone, it is finished, and we might as well recognize ·.it. We are living in a tAJorld wher'E:~ there is a limited resource with many people, and we have to recognize that fact. And we, in Newfoundland, have to think in terms of our economic fiscal policies, so beatn that in mind - bE!ar that in mind. We have to add value wherever we can. Some Han. Members: Heatn, hE:~ar! Mr. Chairman: The han. the ME!mber for Trinity North. Mr .

Hynes : Thank you, Mr. Chajnnan . I just wa.nt l:.o finish up some of the things I did not get a chance to say. I had mentioned a couple of points I found acceptable in the Budget . The other one point announced in the Budget I want to publicly announce my support for is the reJ.ocation of the headquarters of the Easb:!rn Community College from Burin to Clarenville . The Minister of Education has known my posi lion for sometime, thE! pE!ople of the District of Trinity North have known my position, and I lAJant to relate my position to the House of Assembly.

When the post-secondary education system in our Province was revamped some time ago and they set up the college system, I think Burin, Clarenville, and Bonavista were put under· one group. I believe at that time the obvious choice for the headquarters was Clarenville, it was the central portion of that group of colle~~r,,s. The rE:'ason why the 1_3{~ May 1.1, 1')90 Vol XLI college was put in Burin, as I understand it, was because of a Jot of favoun1ble -- we caLl thHITI petitions - from area residents down there. They did a 1 ot of lobbying with the GoVE!r'nJnent. I am surE!

GovermTtE:'nt r~:·cEdVE!S each and every day a lot: of lobbytng from a lot of groups and individuals, but I bt:>lieve it is the put"pose of Government Lo 1.ook through l~he lobbiE!S, the lobbying people, and make Lhe right dE:~cision. I do not:. Ul"ink l'.he right dE•cision was macl(;! at that tirne. I thi·nk thE! benefits lAJhich wiJ 1 accrue to U11:• pos t-·-SE!COnclary educat.'.ion syst~~m lAJi.11 Fa1n oul:lAJE!'i.gh the economic benefits or the economic losses that Burin will sustain or Clarenvi11e wil1 gain. Mtn.

Chairman, I tAJdnt to COITIII'IE•nt. very briE!fly on the tnurl'.i.cip<d funcli.ng po1nl.ion oF' thE! Buci~Jet as it relates to Troi.ni.t:y Norl·:h. I dtn sure it was appreciated by the Town of Shoal Harbour and l:.he residents of the Town oF Shoal Harbour, as il:. tAJas appr·ec.ial:c::!d by myseJ.f, the Tot~.Jn or · ~1hoa1 Hal"bour' received $250,000 l:.owards Lhe continuation oF :l.ts lAJc\'lf:•r and sewer system. It is interesting to notE! that no ot.hC: 'In pai"l. or thE• District received any Funci"Lnq under thE• Capita1 Wo1"ks Pr'ogJ"all'l.

Particularly I want to speak about Clarenville, because with l:.he Hibern'.ia cleve1optnE!nl:, as Lhe MinistE!ln of M:inE!S and Ener'gy 1eacl~; us to believe, just around l:.he corner, I ti'l'i nk al "l hon. Membr:·r·s rea1ize that C1arenvU1e is goi.ng to b e a c e n t r a l 1 o c at :i o n f o I" L h a ·t. development, E~specii3.1ly r:ol" Lhe tAJot"kers lAJho aJ"E! going to comE:! 'in Lo that location. I will give you some Facts a(' _, p r o s E! n t E! cl t. o rrH:! b y 1979 to 1989, CJ.arenvil.J.e hC\S No. 32 Counci1. l::he TotAJn F JnOITl oF rE!Ct:dvecl IDI~

"'" $2,097,000 totAJalnds water and sewer; it has received $901,000 towards street improvements. Now that is a total of $2,998,000 over a ten year period. But over the last five years, Mr. Chairman, the debt charges to NMFC from the Town of Clarenville towards its debt, towards water and sewer, it has repaid $1,581,994. That is what they have rE!paicl. Of capi t.aJ. Funding for street improvements, they have l"epai.cl $537,076. That shows that the Town of Clarenville is repaying Jts clc::!bt char·ges, it is contributing.

It is probably one of the · few communi ties around this Province · which is doing something, running its own af fairs in the blue. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr . Hynes : Oh, yes. I agree there are more municipalities. But, Mr. Chairman, for the Town of Clarenville to receive zilch, nothing, I do not think was justice. In that regard, the fairnE!SS and balance From the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs seems to be wavering.

I understand the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs was out and rnE•t with council just l:.wo or three weeks ago, probably, and thr:' Mayor took h:lm around and showE•d him what :improvements l:hey neE!ded and so on. So I hope the Minister will reconsider. Based on the information given him by the Mayor at that time, I hopE:~ he will reconsider and approve some capital Funding For the town to carry on its roadwork this year. Mr. Chairman, that is about all I have to say at this point in time. There 1nay be other times later on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. L35 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI Min.

Chairman : The hon. thE! Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Thank you, Mr . ChaJ.nnan. I am inclr :~e cl soi"I"Y ·that . Members opposite are not participating in the sE•rni.nar. WE! are going to have take attendance. Mr. Chairman, and tAJe cH'E:~ goin~~ to have to keep them in after school. We w:i.J] . haVE! to 1E!t the constitUE!IYts know l:.hi'J.L MelnbE!I ···s opposite neither know anything about l~he BudgE!t no1n ca1ne anythi.nq about the Budget. An Hon. Member: (inaudible). May bE! you cou] cl Dr. Kitchen: Perhaps t-:hat is what:. we wJ.ll do. We will circulate Hansard. There you go! Mr.

Chairman, I because I got so the Hbuse when Fact that there Member opposite nice questions . across - was it I? really feel bad many notes across I nwnt.i.onc:•cl t.hc::­ Luas one hon. Wh 0 a~ ; k E• d s·OITI('! I got. nol :.es Was J.t I? I do nol want l:.o go ou t. back, because the not-:es are piling up ou ·t. therE!. I 1neally should nol :, but I lAri1l narne LhE! hon. Mt:•lllbt'!ln. I wilJ. narne him t-:his mo1nninq, the hon. Mc~mber opposite tAJho askc::•d l:.he intelligent questions . Mr. Hogan: You wi 11 nallll! hi.lfl before noon, will you? Dr.

Kitchen: I 1~1ill nalllE! bE!FOinE:' noon, providing l ~JEd: floor. But I want to keep t-:hem in suspense, you see, something hi .1n l:.he l .. O look For·ward l:o. Mr. Chair'nlan, -.interested :in tH:le of this platters. Part this ProvinCE! No. 32 you k notAr.i ng JTJay l:ha t be Lhe seminar is po po oF our problelfl tn is that we have 1n s

turned our backs on our otAm resources; we have, l:o a laJ~ge extent, been brainwashed into thinldng Lhat Kentucky Fl~ied garbage was better than Newfoundland food, and we spend all our tirne getting these. The other night, in the height of the seaJ.ing season, whE!n MmnbeJ~s IAJerc:~ corning back at night and we had a very limited time to have supper, we decided we would go out and get some food, g~~t sornE! good old N~?!wfoundland Food right in the heart of t:h1:' st.~aling season, but we endE:'d up eating a dish called po po platters! I had nE!Ver heard tell oF it before.

It tasted deJ.icious, but it wasn't a bit like seal. And I asked around the table, houJ come we ar'E! not eating seal? I don't like seal, I can't eat seal, I haven't eaten it For year's , and I thin k that ' s L rue- of many people. I rem~;;~mber teaching in a settlement where every Family had its quarter of beef in the Fall, which las'ted, perhaps, till after Chd.stmas. Then peopJ.e went and netted seals, and we liVE!d on the frE!Sh meat of the netted seal. We had it almost daily. Not E!Very day, because WE! had dried fish and other fish as well, but seaJ. meat was a stapJ.e forrn of our diet, and it was good.

W1::! had it cold, we had it roasted, we had it in many ways. And sometimes it was garrds hed wi t.h a bullbird or garnished with a turr or something like that, and some partridgeberries. We have, to a large extE!nt, gotten away from that, and when I see the sealers despairing of SE!lling m~~at, I arn wondering what is wrong. I believe the technique of cooking and getting seal meat ready For consumption is disappearing from our society. In many cases, it is onJ.y thE! vc:~ry old people who ar'E~ inl:erestE!d.

I don't knoiJJ why we are not pushing this dr:dicacy on 1_36 May 11, 1990 Vol XLI people, and why J~estaurants in St. John's can't have seal lfiE•at available and are pushing it as part: of thE! tourist oi.ndustJ~y. Sornf,~ clo occasiona1J.y, but. oil. :is really as a treat rather than as a staple form of our diet. How much is a carcass of seal, about l:en pounds not counting thE! f 1 i p p e r , and t hat i s not v E'r' y much? How long would a small seal last a family of four? An Hon. Member: boy. One! qoocl r: eecl, Dr. Kitchen: One qood fe, ::•d 'i.n c-~ ca1ncass, isn't it?

One good fE!ecl, or perhaps two iF they are not hE:'auy E!atE!rS -one or LL•JO ~Joocl feeds. Now iF you had it. onco a we ~=d< for a year , you L!.JO u l cl n e c cl about twenty-Five or thirty carcasses. There are 100,000 farnili~?!s in Ne1J.Jfounc!1and, 11-1iLh thi.rty carcasses Pach, that is 3 million carcassc!s. Isn't Lhat. rig h ·L , 3 mJ 11 i 0 n C cH' CaS s e ~;? N OIAI, there is a market for sea] rneal: .i.n our own Province. I ra:ise that because nol. only clo we have problems l·:hE!I~e, bu l: IAJ(! bc:,J.:i.eve WE! hdve to r::•xpor·L OUI" berries.

That: is anoUII:!r' ~~our·ce of good, solid food in Lhis Province. We:! export bluE•bc:!l"r'ic•s, we E·xport just about E·vcr·ylhinq, and it is VE!ry di ·fficult to co:ne by locally . Sorne people don't know where to get it, but I believe thE! ber'I"Y siluat.:l .on is nol as bad as some of the other foods. We are br:dnq br·a:iniAJashecl by television into thinking Lhat what we produce ourse1ues, our fish and l:he delicacies l~.hat you go tn other places to qet and pay very high prices For, are nol:: l:.he proper things fo1" us l~o E!al:..

We havE:~ on our doors l::ep a trernE!nclous fishery resource for eating, No. 32 1n6

codfish and other types of fish that people eat and should eat, yet I believe what people are ~~a t.ing mor10~ and morE:~ of are types of food that were developed elsewhere and are being pushed at us.

I really think the restaurant industry and the cooking industJ"Y. and whoever is involved in training and rearing up childr·en, or in educational establishments - I do not: lAJant l:o load too much on school systems, but perhaps post---secondary inst.itut"ions should concentrate a great deal on making good markets availablE! for the food we haVE! so that we do not have to spend all our funds on irnporU.ng things ich are J"ea11y no better, or perhaps a good site worse.

Not that we are against the o Lher foJ"rns of food. but i l: seE:~rns wr·ong for us to i~~nore the bounty that is at our doorstep when we are looking for resources. Mr. Chairman: fol" Kilbride. The hon. the Mernb10~r Mr. R. Aylward: ThE:~ Minister of Finance started ofF his statE!ment. with this seminar that had something to do tAJith the Kentucky Ft"ied garbage. Mr. Chail"rnan. Now what an insult to Newfoundland farmeJ"S in this Province. Ml". Chairman, because l:he chicken that is used in KE!ntucky Ft"ied garbagE! is raised here in Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, and is bought, Ml".

Chairman, From Newfoundland fannE!rS, Mt". Chairman. and it creates Newfoundland jobs. Mr. Chairman. and I br:!l:i.eVE:' the han. Minister should apologize to the farmers of this Province. Ml". Chairman. It cr·eates jobs at NewfoundJ.ancl Fann Products. Mr·. Chair·rnan, this Kentucky Fr·ied garbage that the Mintster refE!rl"ed to. Mr. Chairman. he has insulted, Mr.

Chairman, the producers of this Province which, L.37 May 1.1.. 1990 Vo1 XLI I would not rrri. nd if he~ had s cdd yes we should USE! this Newfoundland product, tAle should use seal chickE•n, and mr:~al: tTlOl"IO!, I with h:l.rn that, it should lAJOUld agl"l':!E:~ wholehearh~dly on bE! USed ITIOl"e, But, Ml", Chail"man, onE! or LhP reasons why it is nol: used mol"e, 01'1E! of the J"easons that rarni.J.Jes cannot partake of the ul:i.l.izat.ion of seal meat and catching thP seal. meat ash~;:~ sa:id, and ch'arri.ng tt and pnq:>aring i l, Ml". Chait"rnan. this Mtnis l~.E!r has Lhr::!

Fatrd.l:iE!S oF NelAJf ou nd land taxed so much. Mr· ·. Chair·man, that bol:h husbi:lnds and wives have to work e:l.ght to tPn hoUJ"S a day. Mr. Chairrnan. to l:r·y to sul"Vive. They cannot. ar·r·oJ"d, they do not have Lh<~ tirrw t:o go out and catch sea]s which we would all love to do, Mr. Chairman. An Hon. ME:~mber: (InaucljbJe) . Mr. R. AylwaJ"d: Yes. ~;o, Ml" . Chairman, he also :insulb;!d one oF his OlAJn MernbE!l"S. Ml". Chait"rnan. wh:ich I completely forgot.

The Member for Mount ~3cii)--· Bel1 lsJ.ancl is selling this Kentucky Fried garbage . that t:hP M:inj stE!l" r·efel"l"E!cl t.o a feL1J minutes ago, and .I think that is absolutely shock:ing. No wonder l:he ME!mb~~l" for· Mounl: Scio-Bel1 IsJ.and beat i t oul. of the House. He~ ".i.s oul: tAli.l~.h an ad company notAJ, Mt". Chaj nnan, tr·yj ng to salvage t:h1:! dr-.:unaqe l·:hat Lhis M:ln:i.slE!r is after dcd.ng. T l''y".i.n~J to create some more aclvPrtising for thE! product that ht:! tAJas involved in. I do nol~ b10!LiE!V1:~ 1·11:· is anyrnoJ"e, but hE! tAJas Jnvo1vecl :i.n at one time. An Hon.

Member : He sti11 is? Mr. R. Aylward : He still is . An Hon. Member: Oh, yes. very No. 32 I~ 3 'I

much so . Ml". R. Aylward: Bul:, he has to hil"e an ad company now, Mr. Chairman, to tJ"Y to undo l:he damage that the Minister of Finance has done. Again, more damage, Ml". ChaiJ"man, hE! has taxed the Kentucky Fried Chicken operations with his payroll tax, Mr. Chairman . He is after bleeding thE•m al] he can wit.h his payJ"oll tax. An Hon. Member : Buy a bucket of Kentucky Fried . ChickE!n and you will get it in a garbage bucket. Mr. R. iUflward: Yes, l:hey lAJill change it to garbage buckets if the Minister of Finance has his way, Mr. Chairman, that is what we L\Ji.ll have.

But, I think he should probably giue up on his sE•minars. But, Mr. Chairman, anothE!r reason, MJ". Chatrman, L\Jhy pE!opJ.e in this Province cannot afford to go out and catch seals and have thE! time or the equipment, Mr. Chairman, is because the Minister of Finance and his budgets over this year and last year, Mr. Chairman, have robbed $30 rnill.ion from consu1ners of electricity, Mr. Chairman, by taking away the subsidy, a $30 million subsidy on thE! pOLIJer distribution, I Forget the name of it now, but the rural power distribution system, Mr. Chairman.

That is another $30 million that the consumers of this Province - no wonder he is running acuay, Mr. Chairman. He is out notJJ talking to the Member for Mount Scio-Bell Island to try to calm him doL\Jn, I L\Jould say. Mr. Chairman, $30 111ill:l.on he stole from the consumers, electrical consumers of this Province, Mr. Chail"rnan, $10 million a year· over the nex l: FetJJ yPai"S. That is why people cannot, they do not h