Manitoba Hansard — 9 June 1986 (Sitting 23A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-23a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 10 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAK ER , Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Pres entin g Reports by Standing and Special Commi ttees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to present a ministerial statement to members of the Legislative Assembly regarding a presentation that I made to the House of Commons Legislative Comm ittee viewing Bill C-96.

On Monday, June 9, 1986, the Manitoba delegation met with both the Liberal and the New Democratic Party Caucuses. Unfortun ately , a meeting could not be arranged with members of the Government Caucus.

Madam Speaker, it was obvious from the responses of comm ittee members reviewing Bill C-96 that the hardship which will be faced by Manitobans, and indeed all citizens, is not clearly understood. lt has become imper ative in my mind that the Federal Government should im pose a moratorium on the passage of Bill C- 96 until the effects of this withdrawal of funding is made clear to the Federal Minister of Health and Welfare, and the Minister of Finance. I'll be sending a telex to the Honour able Jake Epp, National Minister of Health and Welfare, once again urging that he and the National Mi nister of Finance, Mr.

Wilson, convene a meeting of federal and provincial min isters of Health and Financ e to debate the consequences which will be faced by all Canadians if Bill C-96 is not withdrawn. I would like, Madam Speaker, to provide members of the Legislative Assembly with a brief

summary of the presentation I made to the Comm ittee of the House of Commons revie wing Bill C-96. Madam Speaker, I indicated that health care is viewed by all Canadians as a vital link in the fabric of our Canadian soci ety. This agreement transcends all political partisanship and is reflected in the present report of the task force studying health and sports commis sioned by the Deputy Prime Minis ter. This study team indicated in their document: "B ased on this review, ... there are no compelling program reasons to reduce transfer payments . . .

The team fears that this action by the Federal Government could substantially reduce its role in the Canada's health care system." This was the view taken by Mr . Brian Ransom when he served as Manitoba's Finance Minister and who reported to the Parliamentary Task Force on Federal Provincial Fiscal Arrangements. Mr.

Ransom said, and 707 I qu ote: "In our view, too much effort and too much good will over too many decades have gone into the creation of these arrangements for them to be risked, or even sacrificed, for some short-term, short-sighted federal budgetary or political advantage." How big would the federal shortfall be? More than the budgets of all hospitals except the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospital, or more than the total fees paid to all doctors in Manitoba. By 1990, the federal contribution will fall some $3 18 million short of an equal share in health and higher educa tion.

Madam Speaker, I concluded my presentation to the House of Commons Leg islative Committee studying Bill C-96 with an emphasis that the "The solution to Med icare problems would be to re-establish funding in a positive and generous way." Embodied in this is the concept of the partnership which began insured health services and which was made up of 50-50 contributions on the part of Federal and Provincial Governments. Madam Speaker, the solution to re-establish funding in a "positive and generous way" is supported of course by myself and other provincial Ministers of Health, but are not the words of any one of us.

Indeed, they are the words of the Prime Minister, hi mself, said during his by-election campaign in Nova Scotia in July, 1983 - a statement of which I reminded the House of Commons legislative members. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for his statement with respect to the comments that he and the Minister of Education made yesterday in Ottawa.

Madam Speaker , I gue ss my first question, as I think about the statement that's laid before us, is why does the government persist in using the same termino logy , the same arguments day after day after day? I'm aware, as the Mini ster says, that the members opposite were able to have a meeting with the NDP Caucus in Ottawa. I'm led to belie ve that they were given some more advance notice of the wish for a meeting than the other members from Manitoba. Madam Speaker, the Minis ter goes on and says that Bill C-96 will create a hardship that will be faced by Manitobans.

I remind him of his own speech that he gave in the House the other night when he indicated that it might be best to put politics aside when we're looking at this issue. I remind the members opposite of the amendment to the res olution that we brought in on this side of the House, when: we indicated to mem bers opposite it was time to sit down and look at the needs within post-seco ndary education and within health. lt was also the time to sit down to assess the wealth of the nation, also to assess the ability and the desirabil ity of all Canadians to want to produce additional wealth.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 Madam Speaker, unless people, regardless of what political side they're on in this argument , are prepared to look at the problem in that total overall sense, instead of trying to push it into purely black and white political tones, we're not going to get anywhere on this problem. When I continue to see the Minist er of Health say, "to debate the consequences which will be faced by all Canadians ," it indicates to me that the Minister of Health is saying to the Federal Governme nt, you have ample money, but you're turning it off in one specific area.

I will pose questions in question period later on, Madam Speaker , to the First Minister with respect to tax reform, becau_se the members opposite seem to think that tax reform will allow the Federal Government greater revenues to prevent the dire consequences of which they speak . Madam Speaker , the Minister says, based on this review, there are no compelling program reason s to reduce transfer payments . Again, I tell you and members opposite and the people of Manitoba, that their increase this year in total transfer is 5 percent ; indeed, there has been no reduction. MADAM SPEAKER: On a poin t of order. HON.

L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, could I suggest my honourable friend read this very carefully - (Interjection) - It's a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. What is your point of order ? The Honourable Minister of Health on a point of order? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I would want to remind my honourable friend that the statement he is reading and applying to me is not mine . I was quoting the Deputy Minister 's committee . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker , the member opposite talks and quotes a reference to my predecessor, Mr. Ransom. Let the members opposite indicate that what Mr. Ransom was talking about was the change, the unilateral change in equalization payments. So, Madam Speaker , let the members opposite realize what they are talking about. To finish off the commentary. The Minister talks about a solution to medicare programs would be re established. What he seems to be saying is, Ottawa, we need help; send more money. Yet we are well aware today that 30 percent of Ottawa's revenues are directed toward the cost of servicing debt .

The final comment, Madam Speaker, again the Minister, and I don't see this in quotes, quoting anybody else, indicates that a 50-50 sharing be struck . Never, ever was there an agreement to 50-50 sharing , Madam Speaker. The government's own resource person working within this area, Mr. Sales, said so Friday morning last, that there was never a 50-50 commitment. Madam Speaker, I find it again ironic that the Minister of Health rises to make this statement when just two 708 weeks ago, in debate, he indicated that politics had to be removed from this whole problem .

MADAM SPEAKER: May I take this opportunity to rem ind all honourable members of our Rule 19. (4) which says, ". . . a spokesman for each of the parties in opp osition to the government may make a brief comment with respect to the announcement or statement and the comments shall be limited to the facts which it is deemed necessary to make known to the House and should not be designed to provoke debate at that time ." I would hope in future, under Ministerial Statements , that the responses would keep Rule 19. (4) at the top of their minds . A MEMBER: How about the point of order?

MADAM SPEAKER: There was no point of order. The Honourable Minist er of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I do have a Ministerial Statement. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , yesterday the Minister of Health and I made a presentation to the Commons Commi ttee studying Bill C-96,

An Act to amend the Federal -Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act . The Government of Manitoba believes that passage of this bill would lead Canada in the wrong direction .

Bill C-96 : suggests that Canadians should devote a declining share of our economy to health and higher education services at a time when all forecasts show that needs are clearly increasing and evidence suggests that our country can afford to maintain and improve these services ; represents a significant and unilateral withdrawal of federal responsibility at a time when federal presence is still needed, and its role has been reaffirmed as recently as 1984, with all-party support for passage of the Canada Health Act; and passes federal burdens onto provinces at a time when provincial fiscal circumstances are particularly strained and federal fiscal circumstances are expected to show marked improvement.

For Manitoba, that shortfall translates into about $300 million annually. That amount in program terms means: the entire expenditure on universities and community colleges; the budget of all hospitals in Manitoba except for St. Boniface and the Health Sciences Centre; or more than the total combined salaries of all doctors or all nursing homes and Pharmacare costs in Manitoba . Along with other provincial governments, and increasing numbers of men and women throughout this country, Manitoba believes that passage of this bill must be delayed to permit its full impact to be assessed and understood .

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 I regret to inform the House that Manitoba's presentation was not supported by the Progressive Conservative Members of Parliamen t sitting on the parliamentary committee . MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to respond to the Minister 's statement , and I see it's a rehash of the statement that was made some three or four days ago and then repeated yesterday' and now being rep eated again today .

It's interesting that we are dealing with the ques tion of laying off of costs from one government level to another government level , and there is nothing contained herein about this govern ment's failure to play its proper role in financing post-secondary education . In fact, the figures seems to indicate that the Federal Government seems to be providing most of the money for the educational financing at the university and this government has been backing away from its responsibility to the universities in this province over the last few years.

There is also nothing in this particular statement about laying off the costs onto the municipality, the hospitals and the ratepayers in this province . I believe they have off-loaded some of their responsbility onto the local rat epayers by some $100 million in the educational field over the last five years. Where, if we're talking about this whole question about who is respon sib le, who is to deliver , who is going to be accountable, why aren't they talking about their shortcomings in this total debate about who is going to be providing serv ices to Manitobans? MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . .

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced, by leave , Bill No. 19, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act (1986) ; Loi de 1986 modifiant la legislation relative a la fiscalite. (Recommend ed by Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 23 students from Grade 9 at Inkster School. These students are under the direction of Ms. Vicky Adams. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Finance.

We have 28 students from Grade 5 from the Dearwood School. These students are under the direction of Mrs . P. Barrow and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable First Minister . We hav e 25 stud ents from Grade 6 from the Shaugnessy Park School. These students are under the direction of Mrs . Peggy Hill. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster . On behalf of all the members, I welcome you all to the Legislature this afternoon . 709 We also have visiting with us this afternoon in the loge to my right, Mr.

Howard Mccurdy, Member of Parliament for Windsor -Walkervill e. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon . ORAL QUESTIONS Children's Hospital (new) - opening of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health . Can the Minister tell this House if there has been a date set for the opening of the long awaited , desperately needed , new Children 's Hospital? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable M inister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not to my knowledge, Madam Speaker . MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister . Can he inform this House whether there have been any delays in the court proceedings, or at what stage these court proceedings are at? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I can take that as notice , Madam Speaker . Up till now the commission of the department is not trying to interfe re with the private sector that are involved in this. It is a question between the architect, the board of the hospital , and the contractor. It is certainly not the commission that is at fault in that at all.

Children's Hospital (old) - power failures MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker . Madam Speake r, my question follows upon the questions of the Member for River East, to the Minister of Health.

Given the recen t power outages that have occurred in the old Children 's Hospital , and certainly the risk that patients are put at - children are put at - when those power outages occur , will the Minister undertake to have either himself or his Deput y Minister contact the Board of the Health Sciences Centre and find out what is the cause of the inord inate delays in the new Childr en 's delays in the new Children's Hospit al and use his influence as Minister of Health, and senior minister in this government , to get at the job of having that new facility open and serving the children of Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We met with the chairman of the Commission as well as the administrator , and we

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 made our position very clear that we're quite anxious , especially with the money the taxpayer is spending for the construction of this hospital, very anxious to have this hospital opened. It is a needed facilility or it wouldn't have been built and we've done everything that we could. The situation is that it would not be safe to open that hospital now , and that is in the process of being corrected . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Is the Minister of Health telling us that in his meeting with the executive director and the executive committee overseeing the reconstruction of the Children's Hospital, they neither sought nor received even an approximate date for the opening of the new Children's Hospital? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, this meeting was held awhile ago, and I don't know exactly what the latest date is, if any, and I'll enquire . Thes e discussions go on with the Manitoba Health Service s Commission.

But if it is something that this House would like to know , I'll enquire and see if there is any change at all from the date that was given to me. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's the most kind undertaking for the Minister of Health on behalf of the children of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, on a new question, could the Minister of Health do some checking with the Health Sciences Centre and satisfy himself and satisfy us in the House and the people of Manitoba that there are sufficie nt safety precautions and backup plans in place at the old Children's Hospital facility in the event of another unpredictable power outage that has already occurred twice? Will he so satisfy himself and the House that contingency plans are in place to assure the safety of those children in that hospital? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , when I saw the report, what happened, I'd already started asking the commission for a complete inquiry. I'm surprised to see that a stand-by system also failed and as soon as I get this information, I will kindly inform the members of the House . MR. D. ORCHARD: A question follows from the Minister's answer. Is the Minister saying that he only found out today of the power outages that occurred some several weeks ago, and he has not been more informed than that on the danger to the safety of children in that old Children's Hospital than to simply find out today? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I'm talking about the latest failure, yes, I only found out today. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , that begs the question as to whether the Minister asked the Board of Health Sciences Centre or the President of Health Sciences Centre after the first power failure what was happening and what contingency plans were put in place . Has this Minister not taken his responsibilit ies seriously for the children of Manitoba? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I made it quite clear that I was referring to the last failure . I made 710 it quite clear, if you look at Hansard .

I said that today again, I have requested an investigation by the commission to find out exactly what happened and why. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, at the risk of incurri ng your wrath, I feel it's appropriate to pose the question again to the Minister. Was he not mad e aware of the first power failure which endangered the life of children, and did he not make those enquir ies then instead of waiting for the second power failure? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speak er, I clearly stated that I've asked the commiss ion to inves tigate on the second incident.

The first one , there was some discussion with the commission, they assured me that they were going to look at it and they were going to find out, and that is why this time but I immediately contacted the Commission because I wasn't satisfied , especially after a repeated failure. Western Canada Games in 1991 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE : Madam Speaker , my question is also directed to the Minister of Health in his capacity of Minister responsible for Sport. Where will the 1991 Western Canada Games be held? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Sport . HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I think that there's a misunderstanding and a lack of understanding of what the Western Canada Games are. The Canada Games are held across Canada at certain times and there 's a contribution from the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. It was not supposed to be held in a larger centre . The Western Canada Lottery Foundation, it is strictly the province, and it is the opposite. It was held in the largest cities in Western Canada. It was held in Regina, in Saskatoon, in Calgary and again in Regina.

The application and the understanding was that it would be held, when we discussed with the other provinces, in Winnipeg. That is the set-up , that Winnipeg did not have any gam es at all since the Pan Am Games practically a century ago and the situation is that with some of the facilities and so on, it would help Winnipeg. That was understood from Day One, because that has been the practice of the Western Canada Games . MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker , I'm not sure , but I think the Minister answered that the games would be held in Winnipeg .

Based on that assumption on my part, I'll ask the Minister if this decision was made on recommenda tion of a site selection committe e. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well obviously, he can only assimilate a little bit at a time , because I've answered that. I was antic ipating exactly that because there's a lack of understanding from my honourable friend on the other side. The commitment was made with the approval of the Cabinet of the province that Winnipeg would be the

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 site, and that is exactly the way it was done in Calg ary, the way it was done in other provinces. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, would the Minister now agree to appoint a site selection committee so that the feasibility work that has been done in Brandon and is still being done will not have been in vain? In other words, why wouldn't the Mi nister let someone know about his decision a long time ago? HON. L DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, it was clear that Manitoba offered to hold the games in Winnipeg.

That was conveyed to the Ministers at their request, I might say, and as soon as we were informed of what Brandon was doing, they were informed as far as I'm concerned because I have di rected the Director of Sports - I received a letter just a week or so ago - I im mediately di rected the Director of Sports to get in touch with Brandon and explain exactly what the situation is. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West with a final supplementa ry. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you. Yes, Madam Speaker.

Would the Mi nister please check with his officials about when or if officials in the City of Brandon ever were informed about this, because the Minister's answer does not square with what we're hearing from Brandon? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, I will. This letter tha t I received was approximately a week ago, and I will. Now if you remember, Thompson put in for games that they didn't get either, and a lot of people put in for games. At no time did we invite any centre in Manitoba to put an application for the games, at no time. And we don't guess - (Interjection) - why not? I just finished telling you why.

Tax Breaks - recommendation of Carter Royal Commission MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Morris. Order please. Order please. The Honou rable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I dir ect my question to the First Minis ter. Several times already this Sessi on, Madam Speaker, the First Minister and indeed the Minister of Finance have made reference, when they were talking about tax reform, to the Carter Royal Commission on Taxation.

My que stion to the First Min ister, is it th e government's intention to sugge st to the Federal Government that new items of rev enue, of income be fully taxed as called for in the Carter Royal Commission? I specifically make reference to personal benefits given in lieu of salary, group life insurance, strike funds, workmens' compensation payments. Should those items be fully taxed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. H.

PA WLEY: Madam Speak er, what this government supp orts is the ques tion of overall 711 comprehensive tax reform at the Canadian level, as well as an examination of tax reform provincially and other levels, to ensure that unfair tax breaks are not permitted. One of the prime examples, Madam Speaker, of a tax break that must be conside red - a number of tax breaks - are in the last two Budgets of the Wilson Finance Ministry in 1984 and 1985. lt is those kinds of tax breaks that add to the burden, Madam Speaker, of ordinary wage earners and salary earners throughout the country as a whole.

The principl es of the Carter Commission Report, I support. The details are, of course, details that one can take issue with one by one, agreement with some, disagr eement with others. Madam Speaker, we must move though to a more comprehensive tax reform system where more truly do we reflect a dollar is a dollar in the main for tax purposes. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, given that the Minister's last remarks indicate that every dollar should be taxed, then is the First Minister indicating that family allo wances, veterans' allowances, family assistance payments, the Northern allo wance and Guaranteed Income Supp lements be also fully taxed, as indicated and recommended by the Carter Royal Commission? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, what I do want to see and this government wishes to see is that the ch anges be of a progressive nature rather than regressive nature so those that are wealthiest in our society assume a greater responsibility of payment of taxes within our society. That, Madam Speaker, includes such as the banks, such as the oil companies and less tax burden upon the low-income and midd le-income brackets of Canada. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementa ry, Madam Speaker.

Is it the policy of the government that they support the Carter Commission when that Commission suggests that capital gains on principal residences also be taxed? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we're not dealing with the question of principal residence or one's home.

This reminds me of the campaign launched by the Conservative Party in the last provincial election when they'd indic ated that we were going to imp ose some sort of equity tax upon the homes of the Province of Manitoba, a complete and total fabrica tion, Madam Speaker, by the Conservative Party of the Province of Manitoba prior to the March 18 election. The electorate of the Province of Manitoba, Madam Speaker, judged that sort of misrepresentation fully and effec tively on March 18 . Legislative Assistants - appointment of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. The Min ister of Emplo yment Services ind icated yesterday that he had a legislative assistant. I

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 understand an order has been passed but not released. Could the Premier indicate then, in addition to appointing the largest Cabinet in the history of Manitoba, that he has appointed six of his backbenchers as legislative assistants? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I'm certainly very pleased that a number of legislative assistants had been appointed. Madam Speaker, as you no doub t recall from your own experience, legislative assistants do a great deal of work insofar as this governmen t is concerned, in providing assistance and help to the Ministers in question .

The best example, in fact, was Madam Speaker, with the tremendous amount of work that Madam Speaker did as legislative assistant , on her work in respect to The Day Care Act , the regulations to The Day Care Act, done by Madam Speaker when she was a legislative assistant . Backbenchers - appointments MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , could the Prem ier indicat e whether six of the backbenchers have been appointed legislative assistants, and whether other backbenchers have also been appointed to the Hydro Board, the Telephone Board , and the Wate r Commiss ion ?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, there are a number of positions that are traditionally appointed by way of statute, insofar as legislative assistants and boards, to various Crown corporations, done by successive governments . Madam Speaker, this government has received full value in respect to all appointments made of MLA's to boards , to commissions, and as legislat ive assistants, such as the example which I just presented to the House. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Premier answer the question.

In addition to appointing the largest Cabinet in the history of Manitoba , can he now indicate to the House that all of the backbenchers have been appointed, either as legislative assistants or as members of boards, or commissions, and some in fact MADAM SPEAKER: Order please; order please. As the member well knows, a question should not repeat in substance a question already answered, or to which an answer has been refused . The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier has appointed six members of the backbench as legislative assistants, and there are at least three or four other positions to boards or commissions, could the First Minister indicate and inform the House whether all members of the backbench have now received one or, in fact, two appointments? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, definitely some members in this caucus are doing more than one 712 additional responsibility.

Some are doing two additional responsibilities , Madam Speaker , at no additional remuneration beyond the one remuner ation for the one additional position . Funding to colleges and universit ies MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education. We have had several ministerial statements and we certainly have had a number of press conferences on the lack of proper attention being paid by the Federal Government to post secondary education.

My ques tion to the Minister is how in a Budget, ther efore, of 6.9 percent overall increase, does he exp lain why universities only got 3.8 and community co lleges only 3.5? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Clearly, my department , along with all other departments, have to establish internal priorities. We do that with a clear understanding of what has preceded us in terms of support to univers ities, community colleges, and the public school system.

I point out for the members information that from the years 1981 thro ugh 1985 - 1984, I should say - the increases to universities, in particular, have been substantial, substantia lly above the rate of inflation. For the period of time of the first term of th is government , the support to universities equalled the rate of inflation , which is not insubstantial, Madam Speaker . I also indicate ... MADAM SPEAKER: Answers to questions should be brief . The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supp lementary question, Madam Speaker, to the same Minister.

Does the Minister not believe that he weakens his own condition with the federa l ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Would the honourable member like to rephrase her question and not ask for an opinion. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Is the government's position in demanding more support from the Federal Government not weakened by their lack of support for post-secondary education? HON. J.

STORIE: No, Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, if you look at the record of the government over the last four years, the previous term, our record is certainly superior to most other provinces and, Madam Speaker, puts the record of support, on the part of the Federal Government, to post-secondary education institutions to shame.

- Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 Tax assessment increases MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Char leswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Mi nister of Municipal Affairs. In light of some antici pated shifts in assessment in the City of Winnipeg come 1987; in light of his statement to the City of Winnipeg that he felt classification and portioning legislation would not have any material benefit to the City of Winnipeg taxpayers, would the Minis ter advise the House what other measures he would propose to bring in to allow for some buffering of those inordina te assessment increases.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My response to the City of Winnipeg was tha t proclamation of

Section 2 of Bill 105 would not resolve the problem that some members anticipate. We are, as I have indicated on a number of occa sions, at the present time reviewing all the information that is available to us in terms of what the reassessed values will be. When we have a better idea of what the impact will be, we will then sit down with the appropriate officials and determine what the best course of action might be on the part of the province to amelio rate any undue hardships that may take place when assess ment reform is brought in. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Char leswood with a supplementa ry?

MR. J. ERNST: Yes, Madam Speaker, I thank the Mi nister for his answer. The concern that I have is this, that the Session will be on for perhaps two or thr ee more months. If, in fact, the Minister isn't in a position to bring forward legislation when the Session is over, how does he propose to put that kind of assist into place prior to January 1, 1987? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Just in response to that, I can assure the Member for Char leswood that Manitoba Department of Municipal Affairs staff is reviewing the information that is being provided as quickly as it can, and we will make those decisions on a timely basis. MPIC -reserve funds re judgments MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker . I have a question for the Mi nister responsible for the Manit oba Public Insur ance Corporation.

Recently a Saskatchewan jur y issued a judgment for some $3.4 million in regard to an accident a few years ago involving a Manitoba driver in the Province of Saskatchewan. Could the Minister inform the Ho use whether or not MPIC has sufficient reserves to be able to cover that payment to the Saskatchewan family, so that the rates 713 in Manitoba will not be severely impacted by this huge - I believe it is the largest decision that has been rendered against the corporation to date. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Mu nicipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Yes, I believe that is the largest decision that has been awarded against the Manit oba Public Insurance Corporation. I should advise the member that, in fact, the corporation protects itself to some extent in two ways. The corporation does purchase re-insurance from other companies to protect itself against awards of this nature. Second ly, we have over the years built up a number of reserves, and I believe the member of the Opposition is acquainted with those reserves. We have a rate stabilization reserve that protects Manitoba motorists from undue increases in premiums.

That is the very reserve that the Leader of the Opposition was so prepared to give away about two or three months ago. Beef cattle - marketing and processing of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Vir den. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. The Manitoba Beef Commission is likely to change its support level for finished animals and premiums on July 1st of this year. Over the last two weeks, the Manitoba Beef Commission marketing numbers indicate that farmers are rushing finished animals to market to beat this July 1st deadline.

The question I want to ask the Minister is, is the size of finished animals coming to market declining this month, and is the number of animals grading below A 1 and A2 inc reasing above the provincial norm during this month? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , the Beef Commission, as the member knows, ever since the program began, makes its changes in terms of the formula twice a year - on July 1st and January 1st. As is the case every year, in terms of cattle that were raised from last spring, some of which are already finished are going to market.

I will check the allegation that the member is making and report back to the House, Madam Speaker. MR. G. FIND LAY: When I look at the open market price for cattle . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. G. FINDLAY: . . . one has to ask the question, is the presence of the central selling desk interfering with orderly marketing this month? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, absolutely not. In fact, the central desk sel ling, Madam Speaker, does

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 bring about greater competition in the marketplace to get a better return to producers so that, in fact, the taxpayers of this province - in terms of the stabilization payments - would pay a lesser amount if we get more out of the marketplace. Farm foreclosures MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the fact that Honourable John Wise, Federal Minister of Agriculture , wants to check with Manitoba farmers before his department cooperates with the government effort to postpone farm foreclosures, could the Minister inform this House of the reaction his department received from The Farm Protection Act? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I have not seen the comments of the Federal Minister of Agriculture , but I wish to advise my honourable friend, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, that throughout the win1er, last fall and early winter of 1985-86, I consulted extensively with over 1,100 farmers in the Province of Manitoba in addition to other farm groups .

Madam Speaker, more than 80 percent of the respondents to the questionnaire that we put out, about strengthening the legislation in Manitoba favoured strengthening of farm debt legislation , supported the position that the Manitoba Government has put forward to this Assembly now. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a supplementary. MR. C. BAKER: A supplementary, Madam Speaker . Can the Minister assure us that this information will be passed on as quickly as possible? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I certainly intend to again advise the Federal Minister that when they originally made their switch in position from bringing in legislation with teeth, to one that they said, well maybe the banks might be mad and also that the silent majority of farmers didn't want it. I don't know where they got the question of silent majority, but I've already advised him of that, Madam Speaker, and I'm prepared to do it, once again. Beef cattle - marketing and processing of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L.

DERKACH: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that within my constituency there are several farm operators who have been waiting for up to three weeks to market their finished animals, would the Minister indicate whether he would be prepared to allow other marketing organizations and processing firms to process cattle, so that this huge backlog can be taken care of before the 1st of July? 714 HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I'm sure, in fact positive, that any processor who wishes to process cattle, and if their cattle are available for market, the Beef Commission will supply all those orders . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell with a supplementary. MR. L. DERKACH: Can the Minister indicate to the House and to the farmers of Manitoba that, should the price and the support price for cattle and the premiums change as of July 1st, would those farmers who can't market their cattle and are on a waiting list be protected from the price support decreases that might be effective July 1st? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I don 't accept the member's premise , but I, in fact, will check the allegation that the honourable member is making and then we'll see where we go from there . Bill C-96 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Kildonan . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health .

It was suggested in the response to the ministerial statement by the Member for Morris that there's somehow a difference between the unilateral nature of the Liberal Government's cutback in revenue guarantees in'81 and'82 and what the Federal Government's attempting to do with Bill C-96 now. I don't see a difference. I'm wondering if the Minister could explain, is there a difference between the unilateral nature of this? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, it doesn't matter who the government is, when there's a partnership I think that there should be discussion between the two partners before the partnership is changed . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a supplementary. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker, again to the Minister of Health. Would the Minister of Health explain what consultative processes have been set up by the Federal Government to consult with the provinces, prior to the submission of Bill C-96, if any? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , there have been some discussions between the Ministers of Health, provincial and federal. In all honesty, I must say that there's been some understanding by the Minister of Health , but the Federal Minister of Health so far has not been able to arrange a meeting. I think he's still trying to arrange a meeting with the Ministers of Health and the Minister of Finance.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 In the past - and not only this present government in Ottawa - when they discuss anything like that, when we ask questions about financing on an important thing like the future health care, there's always different actors in the Department of Finance, and it ends there. We've been trying unanimo usly - the motion passed unanimously by all the provincial Ministers of Health - to meet with the Federal Minis ter. I must say that I felt that the Federal Mini ster of Health, at the last meeting that we've had about two months ago, seemed to want this meeting fairly soon.

Lake Winnipeg levels MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I dir ect a question to either the Mi nister of Natural Resour ces or the Minister responsible for Hydro. Madam Speaker, a growing number of residents, property owners around the South Basin of Lake Winnipeg, are expressing concern about the level of the lake, experiencing soil bank erosion and other water-related problems. Could either of these Ministers indicate to me and to the House, what is the exact level of Lake Winnipeg at this time? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Energy and Mines.

HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. I don't know exactly what it's like today. Last night, at about 8:30, it was at 715 feet, I am told. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, the Mini ster will confirm that 715 is the allowable maximum for that regula ted body of water. Could the Mi nister indicate - I direct it to the Mi nister responsible for Manitoba Hydro - has the Lake Winnipeg control structure at Jenpeg been operating at maximum capacit y, or is it operating at maximum capacity today, and, if so, for how long has that been the case? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I'll take that question as notice as well, but I can inform the member that, for the first time in many years, we are spilling water over the spi llways along the Nelson River. MR. H. ENNS : Mada m Sp eaker, one final supp lementary question which the Minis ter may wish to take as notic e. Would the Minister - you know I don't have the access to the resources that he or Manitoba Hydro have of what the forecast is.

My understanding is that the lake is rising, that the summer months will see more water coming into the lake, princi pally from the Winnipeg River syst em, but could he give me some information with respect to what the next two or three months look like for Lake Winnipeg? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speak er, there is cert ainly a potential for the lake having more water coming in. That's why, in fact, we're spilling water for 715 the first time, as I said, in years. I jus t point out to the member, and to the House, that without the control work we would probably be at about 717 feet right now.

Swan River Friendship and Manitoba Lotteries Commission contract MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Culture. HON. J. WA SVLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to a question that was taken as notice by the Minister of Finance on June 5th. The question was from the Memb er for Cha rleswood about a commercial bingo hall in Swan River.

I am not sure where the member is getting his information, but I can assure him that the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation has not been involved in any discussions, let alone a decision, about working in cooperation with anyone in Swan River to set up a commercial bingo hall. In fact, the policy of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation is one of not giving consideration to setting up a bingo hall without first re ceiving a request, and without the support of th e commun ity and without the suppor t of all organizations involved in bingo operations in that particular commun ity.

Water Services Board - req uests from municipalities for funding MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I ask a question of either the Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs or the Mi nister responsible for Manitoba Water Services Board. Can he confirm that certain rural communities are being refused funds to carry out water services projects which have been traditionally carried out annually, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that there are a large nunber of communiti es who have made requests to the Water Services Board, and have done so for a number of years, that the Water Services Board has been unable to meet all the requests in the year that they wish the construction to take place.

In fact, Ma dam Speaker , I should advise my honou rable friend that several years ago we did attempt to negotiate an agreement with the Federal Government, the present Federal Government, to expand the Water Services Board program simil ar to that which was in place when he was in government, the Service Centres Agreement Program. We were unable to get that agreement and, as a result, Madam Speaker, as well, we are unable to meet all the requests that are there.

So that sta ging, as has always been the case, will have to take its course and communities will be done on a priority basis but, basicall y, as soon as we can get to them.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, can the Minister confirm that some of the projects are being cancelled because the monies are being transferred to a commitment to expand or to build a hog processing plant at Neepawa? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, that certainly, in terms of the monies that are being put into Neepawa, but that money has been provided as an addition to the budget of Manitoba Water Services Board. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I want to be clear because there are some towns that have been calling me in this regard .

Is he saying that there isn't a transfer of funds away from projects that would have been ongoing this year, that those projects will go ahead as normal; there hasn't been money taken out of them for other purposes? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I indicated to the member, and he raised the question about Neepawa , the Neepawa project is being financed through the Jobs Fund, in addition to the monies that we put into the Manitoba Water Services Board. Madam Speaker, there are projects that we will not be able to complete in terms of our budgetary commitment this year and expand.

There is a whole host of communities who have applied for projects under the Manitoba Water Services Board and they will have to take their turn, Madam Speaker. Every community, as well, Madam Speaker, if they wish to, can of course undertake a project at their own cost. But, obviously, they would like to receive cost sharing from the province, and there are only so many dollars available in the program and we are dealing with them as quickly as we can. Careerstart Program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

My question is to the Minister of Employment Services regarding the Careerstart Program. How many jobs does the government expect to create for young people this summer through that particular program? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to report to the House that we are maintaining our Careerstart budget this year at the same level as last year, namely, $8.5 million, and we expect to provide, with the cooperation of the private sector, nearly 6,000 jobs. I might add, Madam Speaker, that in addition to Careerstart . . .

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I can 't hear the Honourable Minister's answer. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I have indicated that we, unlike the Federal Government, have 716 maintained our program this year at $8.5 million. In addition, Madam Speaker, we have provided 900 jobs through the STEP Program, the Student Temporary Employment Program; and, in addition , through department regular-budgeted summer positions , another 1,200 jobs . I might also indicate that we have 43 Manitoba Youth Job Centres throughout the province and we expect to assist about 13,000 young people in obtaining jobs this summer .

Madam Speaker, I just might add . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The time for Oral Questions has expired . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member fo r Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker , I rise to seek leave of the House to mak e a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Madam Speaker, last weekend, six members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police from the Westman region ran 230 kilometre s to raise money for cancer research.

They worked hard to organize the event and they ran hard and they raised over $15,000.00 . Those officers are Staff Sergeant John McAdam, Constable Nick Greenhill, Constable Fred Lyons and Constable Ray Lamb of Brandon, and Constable Bill Hornseth of Minnedosa and Constable Dennis Hogman of Souris. Madam Speaker, our thanks go to these courageous and public-spirited members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Theirs was a commendable effort and deserves the recognition of all honourable members and all Manitobans. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson . MR. S.

ASHTON: I, too, would like to ask leave to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Recently, communities across Manitoba and across Canada participated in the Participaction Challenge . I am pleased to report to members of this House that Thompson placed first in Manitoba with a grand total of 12,423 people in our community participating, a participation rate of 86.95 percent .

I would like to also note for members of this House that Thompson placed seventh out of 204 cities across Canada. As a footnote, I would like to indicate, for the interest of the First Minister, that Selkirk agreed to fly the flag

• • Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 of Thompson if Thompson beat Selkirk in that challenge. We did beat Selkirk. Unfortuna tely, we don't have a flag, but I can indicate that we will be preparing a flag specifically for the town of Selkirk following from this. In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I would like to, I am sure, speak for all members of this Ho use in congratulating the organizing commit tee in Thompson and the many people who pa rticipa ted in this tremendous show of activi ty. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWL EY: Madam Speaker, just on a point of order, I thought the Member for Thompson said his comments would be non-political. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, first on a matter of House Business, it's my understa nding that the Public Accounts review was completed this morning. You will recall that we had Thu rsday scheduled, if required; it not being required, the Government House Leader and I have had a brief dis cussion and agreed that there will be no commit tee hearing this Thursda y.

We will commence with standing commit tee hearings again next Tuesd ay. I will discuss with him what will be brought forward at that time and announce to the House within a day or so as to the conclusion of those discussions. Madam Speaker, I move now that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Estimates will be review ed, Agricultur e in the Ho use and Hig hways and Transportation continuing in the committee room. lt is my understan ding that th e commit tee chairp ersons will ask the comm ittees to return to the House around 4:20 p.m., so that we can have Her Honour , the Lieutenant-Governor come in following on the result of last nights conclusion of the Capital Supply debate.

MOTION presented and carr ied and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Hig hways; and the Honourable Member for Bu rrows in th e Chair for the Department of Agricultur e. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIG HWAYS AND TRANSPOR TATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Okay, your recollection is Item 2.

A comment first, particularly to the Member for Turtle Mountain, could you please speak into the mike, Hansard is having some difficulty recording the discussion. 717 We are on Page 94 and 95. We were dealing generically with Item 2, and the Minister tells me that he has - by the way, also another announcement - as to remind people, we will be interru pting the proceedings at 4:20 to go back into the Hous e. Okay. The Minister has some responses to questions asked. The Ho nourable Mini ster of Hig hways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, just briefly, Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of resp onses.

One for the Member for Mi nnedosa who asked about the total amounts hauled on winter roads during the past year. The 1984-85 year, there were a total of 21, 225,791 ki lograms hauled; and in 1985-86, on the winter road system, it was up from 21 million to 27,09 7,210. So substantially more kilo grams - and the member wants me to speak Englis h and I'm going to ask the department because they continue to provide me weights and distanc es in both miles and kilom etres and kilograms and ounces and pounds and tons and tonnes, it will take some calculations - so we're going to get a conversion chart.

But, at any rate, what we see is substantially more in 1985-86 from 1984-85 and a longer seaso n, I believe as well, because they were com pleted quite efficiently this past year with optimum weather conditions. So things went very well. Insofar as the question that was asked by the Member for Turtle Mountain regard ing the rental paid for a trailer at the weigh station on Hi ghway No. 2, the department pays a monthly rate of $235 for the rental and $15 for insur ance for a total of $250 a month. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on Item 2? The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: Yes, I'm going to ask about my own constituenc y. Can the Mi nister inform me on the progress of the so-called Treesbank Bridge, the bridge over the Assiniboine that was proposed to be on No. 3 Point, actually where they're proposing to build it is in the Member for Arthur's constitue ncy, but it's my constituents who mostly use it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, as I indicated to the Member for Gladstone, I think, last year during the Estima tes, we have made a commitment to proceed with the planning for the replacement of the ferry which is falling apart over the last number of years, a lot of repairs on it. lt certainly hasn't been the best possible type of transporta tion, a very expensive bridge required though in that area. The bridge design has been completed. However, the acquisition of the property has not been finalized leading to the bridge.

We are not proceed ing with the construction of a bridge there before we have all of the approaches acquired, the land, and also the land for the road that would lead up to that relocation at that point. So discussions are taking place with the Canadian Forces, because there is some federal land involved from Camp Shilo there, and that has complic ated matters somewhat and delayed matters a bit. But we're making prog ress and dis cussions are going on with regard to the replacement of the Treesbank Ferry.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 MRS. C. OL ESON: I had understood that the discussions would be taking place with the Forces, or DND as long ago as last fall. I thought perhaps that was completed by now. Is there some specific thing that's holding them up, if they're being held up? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There is a difference of opinion with regard to the cost-sharing and the location of the route, change in commanders. This usually leads to beginning discussions all over again when that happens.

So I believe that there is prog ress being made now and, hopeful ly, there will not be a change in the position there and agreement can be reached this year. But there are a number of outstan ding issues dealing with location and cost-sharing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. Also, could you please speak into the mike? MRS. C. OLESON: Do you mean to tell me that, should the commanding officer change, no matter how often, this bridge would be held up? That could go on forever. What are you talking about? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member knows exact ly what I'm talking about.

The officials deal at the local level, and there has been over the years, if the member would go down to the base and talk to some of the people that have been there for years, there have been changes in positions as to what should be done there. The fact is that we should have a report from the staff, I'm advised, by about the end of the month, the end of June. We should be able to make a better assu mption then of the starting dates for actual construction as to when we can complete the acquisition when I do get that report, and the staff will be giving that to me by the end of the month. MRS. C.

OLESON: What is the status of the purchase of rig ht-of-way not conne cted with DND property? Is it going well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, again I will be rece iving a full report on that at the end of that month, but this is through an irrigation area, as the member is probably aware, and this has compl icated matters with the landowners in the area to find the best possible route. But we understand now that there is a general agreement for the route, and it should be finalized during this next construction season. The money for the acquisition is in the budget. MRS. C.

OLESON: When will we be expecting to see some actual building of the bridge then? Not this year? Late this fall? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, when I say the money is in the budget, the member is probably familiar, there are really basically four phases to any construction project. There's the survey and design phase which has to be done and the acquisition ph ase which is a subsequent phase to that, the acquiring of the proper ty. In this case, we were doing both at the same time; and then the construction phase woul d come followed by surfacing if that was part of the project.

So there is a 718 number of years involv ed before a project can actually take place. So what's in the budget this year is the desig n, which has been completed, and the acquisition doll ars, not the construction dollars. That is a separate approval and if the acquisition is comple te and construction can physically begi n, then it will be put forward by the department for the Mi nister's consideration and consideration of the gov ernment next year, the 1987-88 construction season. We can assume at this time that it will be put forward by the department on that basis, but it depends on how these things work out.

At this time, it looks like it will be brought forward for next year. MRS. C. OLESON: I'm sure the people in the area will be disappointed that it isn't going this year. They seemed to have been put off year after year. Anyway, let's turn our attention to another bridge on 352, north of No. 1, a small bridge. There was some dispute about it and the angle at which it was to be put in. Has that been resolved and has the bridge been replaced on that creek? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Chairman expects me to have all of these answers immed iately. We will get that information for you right away.

The Member for Gladstone made a comment, though, about the people being disappointed. With regard to the Tree sbank Ferry replacement, I imagine they have been disappointed over a long number of years with successive governments not taking ac tion. We, on the other hand, have commit ted to take action on this pressing problem, but I think the people there, that were at a public meeting we attended, understand the process, that there is planning before a project can actually take place. We have made a commitment, and that is being carried on.

So I think they understand that process, and I would hope that the member, when discussing this with local constituents in the area, would be prepared to explain that process to them so that they are aware. Insofar as the bridge on 352, I'm endeavouring to get the status report on that at the present time. Perhaps the member would be wanting to go on to another question while I get that information. MRS. C. OLESON: While the Mi nister is inquiring about that bridge, there is also the road in that area - there was some dispute about the route it should take in being rebuilt. Has that problem been resolved ?

Is it actually being built on the recommendations of the people in the area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I recall, I believe this is the one that I had discussions with the landowner on and went out to view the property there. Mr. Campbell, I believe. We dis cussed this with him and we have, as a result of that, abandoned the expropriation of the new route through his yard and are rebuilding that on the present location in the area of the bridge . I believe that was actually a culvert, wasn't it? it's a very small box culvert proba bly.

As to the construc tion, we will check to ensure that our information is accurate, but I believe that has been completed.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: Further north of that, there is a connection with another provincial road - I've got a map, but I haven't looked at it for the moment - I believe it's 353, where there's a large jog in the road. Has that matter have been dealt with, in that the road is straightened so as to have the intersection in what you'd term perhaps as the correct place instead of about a mile off, the way it was before? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly the comments made by the Member for Gladstone are well taken in this regard.

Having seen that area, there are a number of winds in the road that have to be taken out when that road is upgraded. 1t wasn't planned that that would take place, the whole

section of that road, immedia tely, but when it is done, it would certainly be straightened out and those intersections impr oved. The member may be putting this forward now as a top priority for her constituenc y. If that's the case, I will certainly keep that in mind for future programs, unless she corrects me that there are some others that she would want considered ahead of this particular upgrading. MRS. C. OLESON: There are so many road crossings in my constitue ncy, Mr. Chairman, that I wouldn't know how to prio rize them. The people from Plumas would be pretty upset if I prioriz ed 353 and 352.

So we'll now talk about 260, and the narrowness and the poor shape of that road. I'm wondering if the Minister has any plans to do anything with that road in the future. I'm meaning just north of No. 16, between 16 and Plumas. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, at the present time, we have no plans in the department, immedia te plans, for the reconstruction of that particular

section of road. There has been some work done on 260 in another area - (Interjection) - yes, that indicates quite a low traffic volume average. I don't know whether it's a lot heavier at this particular point. I do have traffic map statistics; it would be in here in terms of the volumes. The other sections certainly don't indicate that it is a highly -travelled road . That sect ion may be different and we have received some resolutions on it from the local councils and it will be brough t forward by th e department as one of the $300 million worth of proposals that they come forward with every year. MRS. C.

OLESON: I inquired of the Minister's office, I belie ve it was late summer or last fall, about the traffic counts, and at that time it was indicated to me that it was 452. Now, is that not a high traffic count? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. I am looking now at the sec tion that the Member for Gladstone is speaking of. North of PTH No. 16, it is 385. Average daily truck, 422. The truck percent, 10.7. Yes, that would be relatively high for a PR road and it is not reflective of the other

section that I had in the program earlier, which had much lower traffic counts. So this is relatively high for a provincial road, a relatively high traffic count. MRS. C. OLESON: That road gets a high degree of traffic and considerable truck traffic and it is very 719 narro w. If you meet loaded grain trucks there, it could be a problem. lt's very narrow in the shoulders - well, the shoulders are practically non-existent. lt is the edge of the road that is crumbling. I think the Minister should take a good look at that particular sect ion of that road and try to upgrade it in the near future.

Also, while I'm asking questions, on No. 50, which I hope is being finished this year as regard to topping MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minis ter on a point of order. HON. J. PLOHMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Just on this, I don't mean to be very stringent on this but initi ally the member asked about a bridge and so we did not object to it being asked under this

Section 2 which deals with bridges and structures. But now the member has branched off to hig hway projects generally in the department and those could be handled under two areas, under Planning and Design or the Planning and Design on Land Surveys sect ion or the Construction Budget. We had almost finished dis cussion on 2 last tim e. The Member for Min nedosa, the critic, had indicated that there was probably very little to go there. So I would like to see us get through that and deal with the appropriate

section of the budget. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think that's a point of order, but I think your comments have been duly noted. The Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I have one short question, and I want to go back to the other committee, that's why I'm putting it all in this area. But on No. 50, I had complaints, people telling me the problems with the gypsum trucks that travel that road. I wonder what the regulations are and how you enforce them, on tarping, tarps on those trucks, because apparently they were causing a fair bit of problem with the products flying off the trucks. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there may be a need to tighten up the regulation and legal requir ements in this area, although the number of complaints that I have received has been rather limited. There have been some areas where there have been some complaints about trucks losing material from them while they're driving and causing broken windshields and damage to other vehicles following behind, but it has been rather limited, as I said. There is a requirement to place a tarp over a load that is not stable. The

definitions I'm not certain of in terms of when it is requir ed exactly and when it isn't. But certainly they can be ticketed if they are caught with this situation and complaints are made. But it is difficult to get a conviction in the area because you have to pretty well catch them at it. I would think perhaps an inspector or an RCMP officer would have to follow behind and get his windshield cracked before he could do something about it. I'm not certain, but it is difficult and it may need some tightening up of the regulations if it becomes a widespread problem. I haven't had it raised with me to a large degree.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: I thank the comm ittee for their indulgence and that's all the questions I have . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the general operations and maintenance of our primary roads and provincial road syst ems, I'v e always had a strong feeling about the effectiveness of one of the particular programs the department operates -the sealcoating operations.

Of course, this is dependent on the condition of the roadway involved, but as a means of prolonging the life of the road and prov iding a good driving surface, the sealcoat ing program that the department carries out, in my judgment, is a highly commendable one. In passi ng, I may say that the job the department just completed on Hig hway No. 6, which coincidentally runs through a good portion of my constitu ency, was recently sealcoated and is provi ding an excellent example of what I'm talking about. lt seems to me, Mr .

Chairman, that with the department facing pretty serious constraints on money supplies, there should be a doubling or extra emphasis placed on the maintenance program. For that reason, at least I'm pleased to see that the Operations and Mai ntenance program is more or less standing pat at previous levels of cost. I can't help, Mr.

Chairman, but take this opportunity to remind the Minister, of course - and I know that you will indulge me in this to put these things on the record - if, for instance, the Federal Government only incr eases a budget appropriation 5 percent from the antici pated 7 percent that the Mi nister of Education wants for higher education, then he and his colleagues shout a loud chorus of cutbacks.

I supp ose, by the same token, I could charge the department with severely cutting back the Operations and Mai ntenance of the Department of Hig hways because they've just allocated more or less the same amounts of mone y, $66 million, $67 million, this year over last year, but I won't do that. 1 like to maintain some integrity with respect to the meanings of words. This is not a cutback. This is a stand-pat budget. This is my specific question to the Mini str y.

In view of the fact that we are going to have to do our best to maintain and prolong the life of our roads, and in my judgment sealcoating is one way of doing that and still providing an acceptable riding surface - as I indicated, I drive over a good portion that was just done a few weeks ago on Hig hway No. 6 - is the department maintaining, as I would suggest, its amount of sealcoating work in the coming budget year under this appropriation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is certainly a point made by the Member for Lakeside that I agree with and it has been reflected in our budget the last couple of years.

Sealcoat ing is done on asphalt surface treated roads as well as bituminous pavement roads and we have about 6,500 ki lometres in the province of those kinds of roads. This year we're doing 760 kilome tres in sealcoat ing, so we're doing about 12 percent which is fairly close to the requi rement to do them every eight years for a bituminous surface. We have expanded that budget from the 1984-85 year of $3,724,750 to this year, 1986-87, to $4,567,550, 720 which is about a 30 percent increase.

That, I believe, reflects the added im portance that we're putting on this particular process as a preventative mainten ance action to extend the life of the roads that are paved.

On the gravel roads, we also have expanded our dust treatment from $1 ,587,779 in 19 83-84 and held about constant in 1984-85, to $2,337,720, which is another effort to assist those people who do not have access to paved roads but would therefore have access to a dust-free surface, which is important, particularly in front of home sites; but in some areas longer stretches, particularly in the North where there's nothing but gravel and long stretches of road to provide for passing opportunities for cars that may be following others at slow speed.

So that is an area that we have expanded and as well applied it this year for the first time to main market roads in LGD's, so they are being treated in the same way that municipalities are with regard to PR's, so that's another area of im provement. Those two areas are receiving special attention and larger increases that certainly could not be compared with the health care incr eases that the member was referring to, insofar as the Federal Government is concerned. MR. H. ENNS: Ju st as a matter of interest, Mr .

Chairman, can the Minis ter indicate what the cost of sealcoating a mile or ki lometre is compared to say a few years ago? Have dropping petroleum or bunker oil costs at least maintained those costs at a reaso nable rate or ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: We don't have a comparison with, say, 5 years, 10 years ago, but there has been obviously a substantial incr ease in the costs of the oil requi red in sealcoa ting, so that the costs obviously have escalated corre spondingly over the last number of years, leveled off obviou sly, and dropped a bit this year. But the cost is around $12 ,000 a mile for sealcoa ting. MR. H.

ENNS: But su rely, Mr . Chairman, I can appreciate the costs rising, as petroleum products of all descriptions rose prior to the big bust when they came down very su bstantiall y. I would think that the department ought to be able to be purchasing that petroleum product at 30 percent, 40 percent less than what they were doing this time last year. Or is that not the case? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, the estimate of 30 percent to 40 percent is a little high.

We have been receiving quotes of about 15 percent to 20 percent lower and we are analyzing that to determine whether the true savings that should be accruing to the department are indeed being passed on in the quotes, but that's what the market is dictating at the present time - a 15 percent to 20 percent drop from last year. MR. H. ENNS: I'm pleased to have that information from the Minister.

I think it only makes common sense that this aspect of Operations and Maint enance receive the kind of attention that obviously the department and the Minister are prepared to give it, that is, a somewhat enhanced program to prolong the life of some of these roads.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 Just in conclusion, on the matter of the dus t control program that is of great concern to rural Manitobans as you know, I would want to hear it from the Minister himself that while that program hasn't reached PR 518 as yet, there's absolutely no truth to the story that it's not going to be dusted simply because I live on that road. My neigh bours are raising this question with me from time to time and I would like to think that in the ordina ry events of sche duling, sometime perhaps even as early as late August, I might get some dust control taken off 518 . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, just on that, I'm not certain how far the member is off the centr e of the road way. I believ e it's 250 or 300 feet, the requirement. If it hasn't been done and if he's further off than that, that's the reason; he doesn't fit within the regulation. But if he does, if he's within 250 or 300 feet, then he will receive the same treatment that any other resident does throughout Manitoba, in proximity to a grave l provincial road or main market road. MADAM SPEAKER: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, on the sealcoating, on my way in from Brandon on Monday morning, I noted they were doing some sealcoat work on the stretch between Headingley and Winnipeg. That stretch is not a very good stretch of highw ay in my estimation to begin with. I just wonder, would you expect that sealcoat would prolong the life of that stretch of highw ay for eight years. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I didn't say that it would prolong the life necessarily eight years. lt obviously prolongs the life, but usually a road will be done, resealed every eight years.

An AST, an asphalt surface treatment which is just a thin layer should be done, resealed ever y four years. But a bituminous overla y, every eight years is the standard that is applied. That doesn't necessarily mean the last time it's done, that it's going to last another eight years. lt depends on the condition when that sealing is done, but it will prolong the life of the road. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr . Chairman, when you're talking about reconstructi on, what would be involved in the reconstruction of a stretch like that?

Would it involv e taking up all the layers and putting more infrastructure material underneath it? That would be considered a reconstruction. What would be the effect of putting off a reconstruction by using this chip seal treatment? What would be the effect to the infrastructure? Would it continue to deterio rate and would you end up paying mor e money after a long tim e to re build th at infrastructure underneath? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That would te nd to be the case . There's obviously a most cost-advantageous point to do it, where major construction can be put off only so long and then it has to be done.

I guess, if you can put it off for a number of years and keep the road in good driving condition for a number of years longer because of this kind of maintenance, it's obviously cost effective . We certainly can't get to all of the roads, as 721 members have pointed out, to reconstruct them in any given year.

So that happe ns all the tim e that decisions are made to apply ei ther a shoulder treatment to support the road so that ther e are wider shoulders put on roads to support the existing pavement, or the application of batching or sealcoats, whateve r the case may be, to extend the life of the road. lt will though, in the long run, be more expensi ve if this kind of application doesn't take place, because we'r e going to have to totally reconstruct, which is obviously the most expensive operation. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, that's the very point that I'm conce rned about.

I know that in the City of Brandon where funds are scarce like they are everywhere else, we've been using the Chip Seal Program downtown in order to put off the reconstruction that's really needed now. I always wondered if we're really being a little poun d-foolish by not doing the reconstruction that should be done now. Now I realize there are financial constraints, but are we not being penny-wise and pound-foolish with such a program, as much as I recognize that the way things are right now, it's pretty hard to do anything el se? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I don't know whether the member is referring to a specific stretch of road in his concerns. MR. J. McCRAE: No. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Jus t a general discussion. lt would be obviously better perhaps to re construct those roads at certain times when safety becomes a factor , and that's one of the other functions that I didn't mention of the Seal Coat Program is safety. There are certain roads that get very smooth, the pave ments, glassy almost, and they are replaced with . MR. D. ORCHARD: Where? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, the Member for Pembina hasn't been up on Hig hway 75 south of Morris, or he probably would have recognized that condition there where the repaving is taking place this year. But certainly they do get very slippery under those conditions, so sealcoating is sometimes done for safety as well. I imagine that debate could go on for a long time as to when roads should be re constructed. The fact is that it does take a lot of money to do that.

There are limited dollars; there's a tr emendous number of miles of road in the province, therefore, we have to take what steps to protect what we have there as opposed to completely reconstructing it. I think that if we can prolong that, the life of the road, it's obviously going to save money, because it's cumulative. The next time it's redone, it's going to carry on for that many more years. Over a period of time, there can be a substantial saving by extending the life of existing pavement as long as possi ble. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that the finish then, the Member for Brandon West? MR. J. McCRAE: Yes.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 MA. CHAIRMAN: Next is the Member for Minnedosa. MA. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, you were mentioning resurfacing. I wonder, why are we not recycling our asphalt in Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, there are some special processes involved in that and equipment as well. We are doing that in some instances. To what extent, I would have to discuss with the department, but there is some of that being done in certain areas. There are some special processes. It's not quite as simple as it sounds to do. MA. D.

BLAKE: I understand that we're the only province in Canada that doesn't do it, and every state in the United States is recycling asphalt at some 20 percent savings. I just wondered why we weren't doing it in Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , we do not have the same extent of the opportunity to do this as some other jurisdictions. There are areas in the states or other provinces perhaps where they have much thicker pavement layers than we put on in Manitoba. Europe certainly has much thicker pavement layers of bituminous overlay. A lot of our roads are ASTs, very thin layers, so there's nothing to recover.

In terms of the concrete areas where we have overlaid them with bitum inous overlay, we have not got to the stage yet where that has be stripped off and reused, which is one of the areas that they do recycle pavement or bituminous product by stripping off the concrete when they're redoing it. Again, we're just beginning that phase, as opposed to the extent that we're actually redoing it. MA. D. BLAKE: The City of Winnipeg is recycling. Do they have the proper equipment? Is there any way that we could use that equipment or subcontract to them to use their equipment? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, theirs, Mr.

Chairman, I understand, are all overlays on concrete, which we don't have a lot of application for. Highway 75 would be an area where we would attempt a recycle project. MA. D. BLAKE: The Member for Lakeside was talking about the sealcoating. No. 10 is being done from Minnedosa north to Clear Lake. There's a tremendous risk to windshields here. I know, when they did No. 10 from Minnedosa south to Brandon, I forget how many hundreds of windshie lds were broken . I wondered if the department could provide maybe some bette r signage in some way to warn the motorists that there was a dangerous area .

I don't know what precautions you might take . When somebody goes roaring past you with an 18-wheeler or something, there is not much you can do about it, but it's tremendous damage to windshields . I know the treatment doesn't last that long . Once the sealcoating is worn in, it provides a much better road surface and does prolong the life of the road . There are a few clean-up questions that I want to have before we get into another area, Mr.

Chairman. 722 The Minister's received quite strong representations and resolutions from the Highway 250 Associat ion, which runs from Souris through to Sandy Lake, through my constituency, and Highway 355, there's been resolutions and I'm sure he's well aware of the concerns of the people in those areas and has that foremost on his list of attention when circumstances permit.

I know Highway 250 from No. 16 north to 45, the right-of-way is virtually being completed on that now and I do hope that the reconstruction of that 11 miles or 9 miles, whatever is there, receives immediate attention next year because those people have been waiting years and years for their road. Also, I understand about the only asphalt treatment or paving that's being done on No. 1 is in the Oak Lake area . There was about four miles, or four kilometres north of Alexander on 250, a road that was rebuilt two years ago, that was slated to be paved this year.

In fact, at the meeting out in Alexander, I think the Minister indicated to them that it would be paved. I think that's disappeared off the program. It would be an opportune time, while the batch plant is in that area, to do that little

section because I do see one piece in Alexander - they're paving First Street and Second Street, across the tracks in Alexand er Village - so it would be an ideal time to do that little

section of road while the plant is there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, again at the risk of getting into a discussion on the construction program projects when we are dealing with Maintenance, I will answer that quest ion, but I think we should get on to the appropriate appropriation . I wanted to just mention, in terms of the sealcoating and the danger to windshields, which is appropriate under the Maintenance

section , that the road condition reports, and road construction reports are given to the media every week and, of course, they carry them pretty well. I have heard many times on the radio, while I'm driving , areas that are mentioned as being in the process of sealcoating, or under construction, and that kind of thing . So I think that is a fairly effective way. We are also planning to put the road construction projects on the Teledon project that we have, which was introduced last year for conditions in the wintertime, road condition reports and, of course, we want to add also this information this year.

So that I think will again provide greater accessibility to it, limited at this time but certainly a move in the right direction . So those are two areas of efforts made by the department to inform people on construction projects, as well as seal coating maintenance work. I will mention the one question that was asked to save time, Mr. Chairman , that it hasn 't gone by the wayside. The question was asked about Highway 250. There's 5.8 miles of base and asphalt surface treatment in the Budget under the New Projects this year, on 250, west junction of PTH 1 to north of the Assiniboine River. MA. D.

BLAKE: It's still in. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It's still in. MA. D. BLAKE: We were under the misunderstanding it had been lost . If that's still in, that's fine .

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 All right, on Highway 354 I get a lot of complaints there, Mr. Chairman. There was a

section rebuilt there a couple of years ago and apparently the construction has just been most unsatisfactory . The levels of the culverts aren't in the right places and water is running the wrong way. In fact, I just had a call today . He wants me to come out with a camera and take a picture of it because he's sure you'd be interested in it. But I realize there's always two sides to a story. I wonder if maybe at this time the Minister might - I suppose it may be better covered under Construction - but I was wondering what the policy was on the width of the road surface now.

Has there been a change back to 26 feet, 28 feet , or 32 feet? What is the policy? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm wonderin g if the member could hold that until the next item. It seems that Planning and Design would probably be the logical place to deal with it. MR. D. BLAKE: All right, we can do that. Back to Maintenance. I was interested yesterday when the Minister was extremely concerned about the safety of the rail lines, where there was a derailment on the Churchill line. I think he has to show the same concern for the maintenance of highways . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Sure. MR. D.

BLAKE: Now, there are a lot of our roads that have deteriorated to the point where they are becoming very dangerous . I'm sure the Minister has a letter that I just received in my mail today on the condition of Highway 16 between Neepawa and Minnedosa - thi s per son is a long-distance trucker and his wife is a part time trucker who works with him on many occasions - and I just want to mention one or two statements from her letter.

She says, "Construction work started two years ago and nothing is being done at the present time except some graveling and packing ." She said , "Why spend the money on repairs on this mess and why not get on with the paving?" She's on the understanding that there's a stretch there that has to be dug up and redone . Now there is a

section of two or three kilometres that's in a terrible state . Mind you, I know frost boils and that haven't helped the problem. But she goes on to talk about the contractor . " It was a small contractor who never had more than five machines on," and "there are many, many tourists that travel that road every day to their cottages," and complaining about the time it took to do that small

section of road . There was a company, BCB Contracting of Regina , who built the bridge, and apparently they left thousands of dollars owing in the Neepawa area and the cheque that they gave for the tender specs , was returned NSF. She says, "This should have warned the Highways Department of the type of operators they were. " I just wondered what tendering process is used . Is there a provincial prefere nce, or why would a contractor from out side the province be awarded that tender? There is probably a logical answer for it. The holes and the bumps in the road - now , I travel the road every week, Mr.

Minister , as you know, and 723 I agree with her, there are two or three bump signs there that just say, "Bump" and you look for maybe a small bump, but these are really dandies. You could throw yourself right off the road with them . So I think some other type of signage has to be used on a dangerous bump but I'm sure the Minister has the letter and will be reading it and replying to it because there's no doubt that stretch of road is dangerous. It was the understanding of the people in the area that the paving will be done from Franklin to Neepawa this year, which I understand is going to be done.

They were supposed to rebuild from Franklin to Minnedosa , that is not going to be redone and that is of some concern to people in the area. They thought well, finally , this stretch of road will be done and we' ll be finished with it and we'll have a nice road that won 't be nearly as dangerous as it has been with all of the dangerous passing areas that existed with the littl e humps and valleys. So maybe the Minister could get that back onto the top priority list and see that that

section of the Yellowhead Route , which is becoming an extremely busy route - the traffic on that Yellowhead Route over the last number of years has increased, I don't know how many-fold, but I'm sure the department has had counters on there and could maybe give some indication of the traffic increase - not only large trucks but the tourist traffic too because it's quite a scenic route going right through to Saskatoon and through to the west coast . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman , I just want to point out that I have a lot of commen ts I'd like to make on the Yellowhead Route and the kinds of expend itures , and the construction, and the priorities of those two project areas that the member mentioned. But we are falling into the same trap and dealing with the construction projects , and it's 8 (a). I really feel, as patient as we've been that we should try to move along and deal with those appropriations. MR. D. BLAKE: When do you want to discuss the Selkirk Bridge? Under Bridge Service Tendering here, or do you want to leave that? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: It's in the Construction Program. It doesn 't matter if the member - that one is a bridge , and the Bridges and Structures is under this section, so I have no problem discussing it here; but it can be discussed either here or in the construct ion program . MR. D. BLAKE: Well, we can do it here because one or two members might want to speak on it and maybe they want to get back into Agriculture , so maybe if we can do it here it 's done and gone .

I have had many calls and many comments there, and I'm sure the Minister has, too, about the location of it and variou s other things, alt hough the location appears to be established beca use the bridge is going ahead through the former Minis ter's very expensive river bank subdivision. I wonder if the Minister can tell us where the expropriation of the land is at the present time. Do they have all the land they require now, and have there been any court settlements made, and how many land acqu isition disputes are in court now?

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, gene: .o.i;y speaki ng, Mr. Chairman, on the east side of the river the acquisition proceeded at an earlier time than on the farther western portions of the route. I can get the exact statistics and the dates that people were given notices and the time that this was extended and so on and probably have that information; but there has been a greater amount of time given to people to make arrangements, those that actually have to move out themselves, their homes, to make arrangements for acquiring new homes and prope rty.

We've extended that time and I can give the exact dates, but it seems to me that at the present time there is good communication and people are aware of what circumstances are taking place and the offers are being made and time being given for them to be out of their homes. I have to mention, of course, that expropriation is never a pleasant process and that people never like to leave a long-established home and that's compl etely understandable, but there are certain instances when public projects are to go ahead that these kinds of unpleasant things have to be done.

That has taken place many times in the past; the Red River Floodway being one of the bigg est ones undertaken by the Roblin Government in the Sixties. So, obvio usly, these kinds of situations do occur, but it's important that we try to make the process as humane as possible and to give as much time as possible, and we are endeavouring to do that insofar as this particular project to extend the time as much as possible for the landowners in the area and to be as fair in terms of market value.

The process is clear that individuals who are being expropriated have an offer made to them and negotiations do take place. If they do not agree with that, they can accept an offer without prejudice and then take the appeal to the Land Value Appraisal Commission which sets the land values on the basis of market value, and again, if they are not satisfied, can appeal to the courts. In those cases, all legal fees are paid by the government to do that.

So that is, I think, as fair as it can be considering the fact that it is their property that they are having to give up, but it is a fair process and market value certainly. Also, there is payment for dislocation and loss in moving expenses and that kind of thing. So all of these things are considered in the loss. Now you can't pay, as someone said, a headline in the paper I think dealing with Hi ghway 44, you can 't pay for memories and so on to the extent that individuals would like to see it. But there is as much attempt as possible made to be fair in terms of the compensation that is offered. MA. D.

BLAKE: I wonder when the Minis ter is getting that information, if he would maybe get some particular information on the offer that was made to the Partridge family there and what the situation with that is. They were a bit further back but, with the enlarged bridge, they were going to be looking out of their front window at a 70-foot bridge. I wonder if the Mini ster might tell us now what the latest estimate of the cost of the bridge is. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just wanted to point out, Mr.

Chairman, that the location of the bridge was some thing that was discu ssed at length during the Estimates in 724 past years, and it was mentioned by the member as if it had something to do with the former Minister's preference. Certain ly, the former Miniter of Hig hways, the MLA for Lac du Bonnet, who happened to have property in the area where the bridge is now located, was not in favour of that particular route and had no

part in the decision to take that particular route. That has been made very clear. He would much rather have not been interf ered with there in terms of his property jus t like all of the other people that we're talking about. I find it rather strange and ironic that on the one hand expropriation is such an unfair process when it deals with the other members of the public, but when it deals with the MLA for Lac du Bonnet, suddenly it's something that was so desirable and that it's been fixed and construed in such a way that he would be one of those expropriated. lt's rather a different set of values. MA. D.

BLAKE: Subdividing of a lot has become a little more expensive than raw land. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, the member might want to go and ... MA. CHAIRMAN: Can we have a little order? I think we are getting a little bit off operations tonight - that's it! MA. D. ORCHARD: No, you are right, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, we're talking about bridges and structures. The member made reference to the location in an insidious way, I felt, and I thought it was impo rtant that I deal with the location. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think your explanation is leading to further explanations and I think we should get on.

Do you have any further ques tio ns, Member for Minnedosa? MR. D. BLAKE: I have lots more yet . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairmn, I wanted to finish my answer. I can go on to something else if you want. I wouldn't consider challenging the Chair, but I point out that Estima tes is the time when we can get into all kinds of detail on these things and if the Opposition likes to do that they certainly cannot do that as well during question period. This is the time to do it.

Insofar as the status of the homes, the Lippoway home site, the time that they had to be off the property was extended to May 1, 1986. lt is now vaca ted. The Hawchuk home site was extended to June 1, 1986 and another extension - this is east of the river - to June 30, 1986 because of childr en in school. So again there has been consideration made.

West of the Red Riv er, the vicinity of the west approaches to the bridge, ther e are eight property owners on the west side, but in the vicinity of the west approaches to the bridge, the Skrypnyk property home site was extended to July 1, 1986 and balance of the proper ty, possession was taken on April 15 , 1986, but the home site extended to Ju ly 1, 1986. Simila rly the Partridge property was extended to July 1, 1986 for vaca ting.

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 The point about . . . MR. D. BLAKE: Pardon me, Mr. Minister , from when? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think it was an additional three months from April 1 to July 1. The fact is that there were a number of public hearings, Mr. Chairman, you know, getting back to the location and so on. During that process, there were public hearings; there were hearings with the land use committees in the area; there were resolutions received from the Town of Selkirk and the mu nicipalities to support the north bridge.

There was general awareness, in my est imation, of the location of the bridge, so it was not a total surprise for these people, and there were prelimi nary visitations made by the land acquisition people and the local people in the Hig hways Department. So there was an awareness that this bridge was going to go in that location and that the property would be needed. So it wasn't a complete surprise for the people.

Insofar as looking out and seeing a bridge being constructed, the structures, the piers for the bridges had to take place during the winter months when they could get on the ice and the river was frozen. That's why the construction was taking place at that time. That has no im pact on the people who are sitting out there watching. They still had several months until that construction takes place. So, even though the construction was close by, that has no bearing on the point in time when they had to be out.

I think that should be pointed out. lt's rather dramatic to point to the structure that is being built and the piers being put in in the middle of winter , and they'r e still living on the propert y. But it really had nothing to do with the construction

schedule for the other portions. MR. D. BLAKE: I think one of the concerns with those properties - the people have lived there for 30 and 40 years - it's to find another property that would be suitable. We know what's happened to land values. In the meantime, whether that offer they received is going to be sufficient for them to find another place that's reasonably close, if they don't accept the offer and want to go through the courts, they may be strapped financially to be able to purcha se another prop erty . Those are some of the concerns that we're finding in the area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just on a point, Mr.

Chairman, I did state clearly that they can accept the offer without prejudice to the final settlement, so there is nothing keeping them from getting that offer in their pocket if the y can use it to . . . MR. D. BLAKE: . . . sufficient ly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt certainly is substantial. lt's not a doll ar. MR. D. BLAKE: What effect has this had on the operation of the marina there, to date? Has it been any, or what was the final height of the bridge? The Minis ter didn't give us the final estimated cost of it. What height did they end up at, clearance? 725 HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The height from the me.o;n average, the mean level of the water, July 1, I think, is 60 feet. That was revised to take into consideration, not only the federal dredge that was working, it works in the river of some 50-some feet, 53, but also the future, probabl y, expansion of sail boat masts in the foresee able future. Actually, they can go up as high as 80 feet, we understand, but the likelihood of that being a problem in the near future in that area was pretty slim.

So we tried to accommodate some additional height for sail boats in the future, from now the hig hest being around 50 feet , allowed another 10 feet and the dredge in that area. The initial costs were based on a 38-foot clearance, which is the same as the North Perime ter Bridge, and the engineers, planners, in making that estima tion, used one that they felt was perhaps similar circumstances as the North Perimeter Bridge. As it tu rned out, it had to be higher than that, and it did contribute to an escalation in the total costs of the bridge.

That information came out through the public hearing process, that there would be greater heights and there would be problems caused to some busi nesses in the area. They took into consideration the float-plane base there, not putting it too close, so the planes taking off would have no problem clearing the bridge. There would be no liabilit y. That was one of the considerations that resulted in a. changed locat ion. But the public hearing process did lead to the fact that we realized that we could not build a bridge at 38 feet as originally estimated. MR. D.

BLAKE: Have the federal regulations been met, or have you received their clearance on . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Navigable Waters Act, which appli es, the board has gi ven clearance for the construction of the bridge. That was received about a year ago, or eight months ago. In terms of the bridge cost, the prices of the contracts have been coming in under budget which is one encourag ing aspect of the total price of the bridge. So we have no idea of what the total price of the bridge is going to be.

If this continues with the additional - not just the bridge, but the roads on each side, a total of how many miles of road as well, that is really some thing that is uncertain at the present time, as to what the contracts will come in there. But on the bridge itself, the piers and the superstructure, there has been substantial lowering of the total costs because of the bids coming in lower. MR. D. BLAKE: The 20 million will probably handle it, the connecting road and . . . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The estimate of the bridge itself is about 12.9 million and then the five miles of road connecting that had to be built raising the estimate up to $19 ,591 ,000.00. The estimates at the present time are showing about a $600,000 underage on that, so it's around the $19 million. If the other project ions come in lower , we may be able to do it for 18 . MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is now approach ing, I have on the speakers' list the Members for Charleswood, Assi nib oia and Pembina. I'm wonderi ng, we'r e

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 suppo sed to be back in the House at 4:20, should we interrupt proceed ings at this point, or do you want to begin your line of ques tionning. The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: No, I'll wait. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll interrupt the proceed ings then to return at 8 o'clock. The first member on the speaking list, the Memb er for Charleswood. SUPPLY - AGRICUL TURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The committee please come to order. This

section of the Commit tee of Supply has been considering the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture. We were in Item No. 2.(a), Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, Admin istration. The Honourable Minis ter . HON. B. URUSKI: I'd like to put some information on the record that was requested by the Member for Roblin-Russell that I have available for me. So unless you wish to get hold of him, then he can hear it di rectly and you can go ahead with your questions and I'll put it on the record when he comes in if you like - (Inte rject ion) - Okay, then I'll wait, and you go ahead with yours. MR. G.

FINDLAY: I would say wait, he'll be along shortly , I would imagine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: I would like to ask the Minis ter, when staff are brought in, is it possible to intr oduce them to those of us who are new members? I think I know most of them, but a lot of our newer members aren't aware of who we have sitting out front there. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member. I apologize to my colleagues. I am very pleased to intr oduce to you on my left my Deputy Minister , Dr.

Jerry Gartner; and on the right is Ron Dalgliesh, who is th e General Manager of the Crop Ins ur ance Corpora tion. A MEMBER: Where's he from, the Crop Insurance? HON. B. URUSKI: In from Portage. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you. In light of the fact that, as I understand it, a person cannot receive crop insurance this year if he did not pay his premiums last year, what are the levels of uncoll ectables or non collected or delinquent accounts, numbers of farmers and volume of dollars? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is approximately $800,000 outstand ing in premiums unpaid.

The corporation, I am advised, has a policy of carrying on an individual for the second year if, in fact, 25 percent of his premiums are prepaid at time of the policy being taken into effect, with a cheque for the balance of 75 726 percent post-dated to September 30, and a 5 percent surcharge on the total bill. MR. G. FINDLA Y: Is this a policy that's been in effect for some time or is it a recent polic y? HON. B. URUSKI: it's at least two years in place, Mr. Chairman, and I believe that we're going into the third year with it. MR. G. FIND LAY: Thank you.

On winter wheat coverage - can we just back off for a minute before I ask that question? On the varieties that are insurable, what is required to determine if a variety can be insured? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the crop should be on the recommended list of the department. If it is not on the recommended list, then the crop specifically could be referred to the Crop Advisory Committee which is a federal-provincial committee dealing with crops. They would give a determ ination, and that would influence the corporation whether the crop specifically could be insured. MR. G.

FINDLA Y: Do they req uir e that zonation plot tests be run or some specific nature of testing in the province be done before they can approve it, that committee? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, usually it is required to have it pretested for a couple of years and have that information available, but there are circums tances - and it may not be for winter wheat, it could be for another crop - where tests have already been undertaken commercial ly. If those results can be shown that they have been successfu l, those tests could be taken into considera tion as well.

But, normally speaking, a crop would have to be field tested for at least, I think, two years running before it would be included for coverage purposes. MR. G. FINDLAY: Would the unlicensed wheat varieties that are lic ensed have met those requirements of two years of tes ting? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, those varieties of unl icensed w:1eat, they were considered by the committee. As I under stand it, I'm advised that the test trial results were received from the State of North Dakota from those test trials, and that information was used in determining whether or not that crop was insurable. MR. G.

FIND LAY: In winter wheat, as I recall what was published last year in midsum mer, Ju ly, August, that a contract holder could not insur e winter wheat unless he lived in, if I remember right, Districts 1, 2, 3 or 8, and he had to be growing it at least a second year. In other words, the first year he grew it, he was not insurable. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the major concern about where the crop was grown was as a result of rust, suscep tibility to rust. In our dis cussions with the

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 Federal Government, our corporation proposed that we allow the crop to be grown in all regions of the province, ho wever, with the stipulation that only producers who had grown it the previous year would be allowed, seeing that they would have had some experience, the coverage. No new producers would be allowed to grow the crop.

Ho wever , in our di scus sions with the Federal Government, they felt that that was not enough of a restriction on the growing of winter wheat, and indicated that there should be a further restriction and that is to limit it to the areas the member talked about in the regions that he mentioned. MR. G. FIND LAY: As I recall, rust often blows in from the south and one, two and three are right in the southern part of the province, the southwest corner. lt would appear to me that they'd be more affect ed by rust, not less affect ed, than some of the districts that weren't included. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that while rust does blow in from the south, the southwest corner is not generally the highly susceptible area to rust; it is generally the drier area of the province. lt is the areas where moisture and humid ity levels are generally higher that would be the areas that would be more prone to rust suscep tibilit y. However , that decision was made by the Federal Government in consultation with us, but they would not allow us to cover the entire province. MR. G.

FIND LAY: Do you feel there is sufficient scientific information to warrant that decision last year and carry it on this year, or is there a different program this year? HON. B. URUSKI: I guess it's a bit of a difficult situation because with the high incidence of rust this year, it is an added concern. As to what the decision might be for next year, there is as well, a fungicide that is registered for the control of rust, but the costs are very expensive for that.

I should say to my honourable friend that a decision has not been reached at this point in time in discussion with the Federal Government whether or not that crop will be insured right across the province for next year, but the fungicide is there in terms of the preve ntion, as well as the higher incidence of rust that has come into the province. So, what decision will be reached, only time will tell, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. FINDLAY: . . . resistant variety is brought across the line from the States, and I'm not really certai n if there is one.

But if there is one brought in here and grown in this province, would a person qua lify outside of tho se dis tricts? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, this still would have to be subject to negotiations and confirmation between Manitoba and Ottawa. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNER Y: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the Minis ter, we were talking about equalization of insu rance premiums the last day we were in the 727 Estimates. I'm a little confused. You had indicated that if we had a bad storm through the Portage area, rates in Portage would skyrocket.

Am I not correct that the maximum a rate can go up is 4 percent in a given year? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we have, just for the first time, instituted a cap on rates on the hail program. There is no cap on rates and there has never been a cap on rates under the all-risk program. I'm wondering whether the honourable member is making that kind of a suggestion, that there should be a cap on rates. MR. E. CONNERY: I'm just asking a question. On a 25-year program and you drop one and add one, doesn't that then necessitate a 4 percent change? HON. B.

URUSKI: That use of the dropping one and adding one year is to determine the coverage levels, not the premium levels. MR. E. CONNERY: Is there a Mr . Weijs still working as a consultant with the Department of Agriculture on crop insurance, or with the department? I still have a concern, and I wasn't satisfied that the Mi nister answered it clearly enough in our last debate on the equalization of the premium rates in the province. There are I think some 18 risk areas in the province - 15 risk areas. I know there was . . . HON. B. URUSKI: And one in Ontario. MR. E.

CONNERY: There was some concern, or there was some interest by the Crop Insurance Program to try to equal ize payments over some period and a Mr. Weijs was involved in that to try to equa lize payments. I'm not sure whether the Minister correctly told me that there would not be an equalizing or a melding of rates, but will they still go by the risk areas or is it the intention that the low-risk and the high-risk areas would be melded into one rate and therefore the farmers in the low-risk rate would pay a higher prem ium? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I'd like to tell my honourable friend that Mr.

Weijs was involved and, in fact, he did assist with many of the changes that have been put into place, . I say assist because it was a group effort in terms of the staff of the corpora tion and himself and staff of our own department who worked together in a cooperative basis to start developing the basis for change in the Crop Insurance Program and for revi ew. I want to say that it was a valuable contribution to the department and to the farmers of Manitoba that we embarked on some of these changes.

As I said to the hono urable member last night, even though there eventuall y may be some blending of premiums in the province, or a portion of the premiums, there will still be a premium differential based on the soil type and the crop type that is insured. That di ffere ntial will exist so that if you're on top quality soils, say, in the Portage area versus a lesser quality in terms of some other part of the province, there still will be a premium differential. But in terms of calculating the risk and the volatility of prem iums should a major

Tuesday, 10 June, 1986 disaster occur in an area, that would be lessened if there was some blending of premiums. MR. E. CONNERY: So I am correct then, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister is moving to lower the difference between the high-risk and low-risk areas. Also, I think the last time it was looked at, you have to have federal approval before this can be done .

The other concern is, tha t if you raise the rates in the low-risk area, you run the risk of tho se farmers not taking crop insurance because they're going to say that the chances are very slim and then should we have a major disaster in those low-risk areas, which every many years could happen , we would have a large segment of agriculture that wouldn't be covered. Then we would have a really major disaster. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I guess I haven't gotten through to my honourable friend. It doesn't put everyone on the same rate right across the prov ince. There still will be rate differentials.

I guess if I took my honourable friend's arguments one step further , I would have to tell my honourable friend from Virden and my hon ourable friend from Arthur that your farmers had better be prepared on a contin uous basis and maybe shouldn't even be farming even though the premium rates in your areas might say that they're going through the roof because of the drought that you have experienced for a number of years, and because of the large amount of claims in that short span, the impact on the premiums will be very severe.

So, if I'm hearing the Honourable Member for Portage correctly, he's telling his own colleagues in the southwestern corner of the province, "forget it, boys, quit farming and don' t buy crop insurance because you can't afford it, because you're in the risk area that's just too damn high. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I see where the Minister of Agriculture hasn't changed his tactics at all. He gets in the corner and he's got to come out, threatening one area of the province against anothe r. It's his tactic that he's carried out for the last number of years and, Mr.

Chairman, I will not pay a lot of attention to it because I think that's what the farming community is doing - not paying a lot of attention to him. But I do have a couple of questions dealing specifically with the crop insurance operations and the programs. I asked the Minister and the staff of the crop insurance, when are they going to change their discriminato ry policies?

When are they going to allow a man or a woman to ensure a crop which they put in on their own - a lease which they have put in place, apart and separate if they are leasing a farm, separate from their husband or from their wife - if the Crop Insurance Corporation doesn't go to that individual and say, "Because your husband owes us some money of a year or two or three ago, you now can't be your own person and lease a farm and carry on. You now have to pay his or her premiums from last year before you can get insurance for this year"?

Is this a caring government that cares about the continuation of agriculture and those people that need 728 the security? It's a discr iminatory policy and I ask the Minister if he won't look into it; the fact that crop insurance today is refusing a woman a contract because of her husband's pre vious record in the farming business? She is now carrying out a farming o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-23a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 23a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8fb0dcba154a5dfe27e5459aea6542f25a3db8b8

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