vot.. J PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT ROUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL 7, 1979 NO . 21

.. ;:ril 7. 1!> 78 The House met at 10:00 A.M. ~lr. Speaker in the Chair, HR. SPEAAER: l).!oj - L Order, please: suru!El.il·s :gy mrnsr;::as The hon. cinister of Labour and !1aupower. :..a. R.tiLS:.l:.AU: hr. Speaker, l have a stat~ment uere;I .. r.ly llave c ne copy thou~.:n I will try to t."t sc::~e core loiter on. 1 would like to announce today , the appoint~ut ~ffective the 1st. of April of Dr. Austin n.

Colohan as the executive director of the newly forged Occupational Health and Safety division witnin tne Department of l.aoour and t.anr-owtlr. rhe nev division of Oc~.:upational de.alth a~d Safety in ~ne u .. ,.artu:ent LJf Labour anu ~ Uinpowcr is cei:lg dStablisheu in re.sponse to :;rowinc; concerns <~ver health and safety conditions in the worl.; place by tl.'lnal)emt!nt, labour and &ove=ent. lhese concerns were ili&hlishted durin& the provincial conference on Occupational Health and Safety vhich the oepsrtment sponsored in October of L976. ~~y of the recommedations arisin~ from the conference are currently under active consideration by tile departlllent,includin s the drafting of new legislation, Dr.

Coloban brings to this posi.tion as tne new txecutive Director a wealth of technical and administrative experienc:es•l_le obtained his :~edical dc~;rees at Queen's University in ,lorthern Irelanll.tte 11as h~ld positions in IIOSpitals in Creat llritian and in .~ewfound.land, In 1!:151 he lleca= the assistant medical aup,erintendeut of t.1e ~iest Coast Sanitori= in Corner Brook,where he remained until 19.5!1 except for a two year period as the ~iedical Director of l ~ ss ~liniature Radiosraphy fer the ~~nchester Regional Hospital 5oard in England. In 195!:1 llr.

Colohan was appointed Medical Administrator of the St. Jo!ln' lio Sanitorium.rn 1971 he became Assistant Deputy Uinister of the Department of Health. tn1!:175 Dr, Colohan undertook training in the field of Occupa­ tional Health at the London School of Hygiene 1n England and on his return to ,;ewfoundland was appointed Director of Oc.cupational Health in the J ejlartment of liealtn. Or. Colohan is a llircctor of t ue !\e10foundlll!ld Turberculosi& and Respiratory Diseas~& Association and a past president

,\llril 7, 19 78 Ta11e 710 (jW - 2 tlR. ROUSSEAU: of the Canadian Turberculosis and Respiratory Diseas~ Association.He is a paat executive memDer of the Canadian Thoracic Society. ' The new division of Occupational daalth and Safety will consolidate he;~lth and safety services which ;~re now tile re.Gponsibility of five departments and asencies of goverru:~ent,namely, the Departt~ent of Health, the Departmellt of ~~nes and Energy 1 the Departu;ent of Labour and ::.:mpower,tue Uorkl:an's Cocpensation aoard and :'ewfou:1dlanli and Laorador Hyaro.

All units involved in Occupational Health and Safety will be transferred from the respective det~artments and agencies to the new division during the next twelve months,co~~~~~m~encing with the Occupational Health Cnit of tne Department of li.ealtb vhich !las been transferred to the 11ew divis:!.on e£fective the lat. oi April l97d. The lton. mt!lilber for Baie Vcrte - IIIIi te !lay. hR. RII.tr.ulil' : ~r.

Speaker, let me say very briefly for our side we certainly welcome the appointment of an Executive Director of Occurational Health and Safety branch within the minister's depart=ent. }'or our part,~.;e have been a ~itating for •oc. time the setting up of such a division toitilin the lllinister'• department and we are very happy to see that the wheela have been put in motion and people ara being appointed to get it off the ~;.round.

I was hoping the ~nister would ma~e so:a referen ce in nis stateaent as to •·hether or not there i111d b.ee:1 liD)' consultation ~o:ith ti•e labour l:lOYemet.t in the Province as to regards the ap1-ointaent of this particular ~en tl eman.l kllow Dr. Colohan personally.! tbini.; bo1 is no doubt a very qualifi ed jlersoa and can do the job as necessary, but I a:~ wondering whether or not any con5ultatioo:t. nas been aousht with tne Labour Kove~eut acd 1 say that not to be critical, Mr.

Speaker. but certainly the person wbo vill be •managing tbe Occupational Health and Safety Branch uia main dealings will be with management aa well as the unicn sroups around tlle Province,so it i,; U.port.:mt that the person who is b: chart; .: be aille to ilave a sood -,ork.in' r elationship ~o~ith these peoFle,

April 1, 1!:178 Tape 710 cw - J MR. RIDEOUT: !he other point I wanted to make, Hr. Speaker, is it also important that this Occupation Hcaltn and Safety Divisiou be given aoge authority,And of course it is all very fine to have a director and a staff and ao on but we have to give them some authority with legililation and so on and I l1lll hoping that •·e can sea tnat before the House very shortly as the minister indicated to us yes­ terday in Question Period.ilut we are very happy that th<£ cinister has ;:aade tnis move and I wish Dr. Calahan ahd the people that are working with him every success.

SOME HO~ , HEhllt.RS: !lear, Hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS HR. SPI:'.AI.i:R: The non. melllber for ~·erryland. ~~ . POw~R : I would like to present a petition si&ned oy over 3, 000 residents of the district of Ferryland, Conception ilay South and Harbour Maine . The strange thine with regard to this petition ia that although it has over 3,000 signatures for the upcradinc and paving of a stretch of road,the stretch of road included does not have one single 1-ersou who lives on that piece of road full-til:le.

\;::"!1 ?

I ~ f'7<t .,,, t!le undersigned, rasic!ent:J of t!1e district of Fercyl<md, Conception Bay South and !lnrbour ' ~in, along 'fit~ ot'!!er interested i'Crsons and coMra~ies, truckin~ fi~_s, prny that our petition ~ill be ; i\•en s erious .1nd S!J':l;l.:!.thic consideration for the rebuildi:lt: of c: . ~ Geve:l :::il<!.l of ,. ravel road, alon;; :;!t~ i)aVi>t;; c:1c cO::!IJloH:a r.:~o:~ d • .no·":l .l:i c:1e .:icless ~ay Lin.t, fron t:1e Sout!:ern So1ore :{i .. :.t .a;t to t:u! !r:1::1S .Caru~.da :ti;:;;lWOIY. ·;e feel that tlii! ;>roj;~c: is t ~.:l.Si:J!...! !or c:.e ~e::efit of ti.e follo;.;i;~;,; ! nc!us:ri>!s, , •• i::ol:.-E.y :!s: .!a.; anrl tour!:.:~, a long uith the t!lr>!i!

Ji:;tricts, as1 eciallJ ?'crry:ancl, \J:.ere ·..;e .lo not n= pres;~r.cly have a direct access to the 1'rans-ca1Ulda .iig!ll>i3Y .'' -r:1d ;>etition is pro!J.1oly or.e oJf t:1c ... ost ' ld ii •• J .:;:lt: t:1e .oitn.ltures 01rc. all b orO:cr. ::e ! ave lett ers of SU,lr-' rt ant! I \,'Ould l:!.l.e to reau a fev co=cnts i'rou so;,e of tn..,;;a l~ttcr3 of sup~or:. One of the first co=cots fro1:1 !!r.

Arthur 0 'ilrien of .<c..:fountlland Quick Freeze, who has to ;,e the guidin;; light behind c:1is p etitic:1 !n i)etting ~:I!S<l ~~e:l and si;;natures on t!:is P• t:!.tion. !'r. 0 'Jrier.' s letter of suvport, "•:c strongly support t!l e petit:!.oo :c upsrade, pave and finish the ~-:itless ~ay Line and feel. stroogly that it s:1ould have j>r:!.cr!ty fo-: all o t!:.er pa.ving 1:ork 1;~ this a.rca. Our ccn::;.nny for one ~ves to and frc~ ot~cr plants sooe ~0 million ?OUnUS of fish, offal an..: ether fool! jlr oeucts .

T!:is jlSSt rnll ... a :..ou6:1t frow the H:;!let::ll:l i;t ro~tr01p, lolyrood 3rea, over 1 ~lion rour.ds of squid to free:e ;:;t our ~; itless Ja:; !'lan t. If t.lat ::oad were upgraded and finished ~e · .. oulcl find wor!: in our 01rca. for over sixty people fro::~ Jay J ulls Sea Products. "The road is used const3ntly for the truc!~ing of pril:lary fish products to all plants on the Sout!u1rn Shor~ froo Conception, Trinity and PlacentiA bays •nnd like~ise is used for hauling fish, cr3bs, etc., £roo the Southern Shore to plants io Conce~t i on and Trinity bays.

We feel the improvements in this road would greatly ~e:~cf:!.t t~ e fis \ in;:; 1nclustt)' and th~ .\vnl cn Peniru; uln ~ l'l ::i ..:t! "

: . h~ving a decent nec:ess to t:•e people of rerrylo:~ r.<! district to the Trans-canada.

"The fish ced pl.:lnt in 'litless !lay is used by llllny fish cot:~panic:s :,ot~ on our end of the ,\valon r.nd on t !w. ot!1e1: si~c." A lcttc:r froa !!r. :li!>2 :ty= of !l:~y :lulls says; "Sir, l c:1cnot stress stron 0ly cnou;;!t the oc:nc:fitswhich ·.:ould ~e rc.:11ized not only for t!te •lis trict of F~r::-jl:md !:u: :l.lso the ncig!l~ourins ur!J.:1n .:md rur:1l districts as V\:.ll. :''•is road is vi:al to t~e fis~L,c and tourist industries of ~~rrjland.' It sa:~s, ·· rollo-o~in; the prcsent;J.tion of a petition to t he AC:Iinistration of the hon. J. !1..

SC:lll\tood i=edute :Jction •..tas t;J.ken c.nd seven and a h:llf wdles were up:;ro:~dad. It is ~toped t~ . .:1: t~<c efforts of t his Co=ittce \:ill receive t:1e s11= co-op eration llt this tioe. '' Letters came from many different companies and firms ~ o t!1 i:1 :'crryl.:lm! :l!s tric t: a:ld i:1 Conce:ptio:l i:iily Sout~ .:~~rl Trin itJ areas, and from Ocean Harvesters Limited in Harbour Grace.

This is about the oldest of comaunication links between Conception Bay and the Southern Shore of the Avalon, a vital one at t~:Jt because ill at!dition to bein& uic.icly used for the bcr.eral pu~lic 1 thousands of tons of fresh fis~ is trans ported over it :r~rly as well. Froo ~1lden Ea&le, letters of support beC.:lusc c:tcy transport over 1 .:~illior.l .;dlar.s of fuel oil up our Sitorc each yl!;l.r. ~;,::a of the ::~.ajor food dis tributors for Ferryl;mc! and St. !~ry's saction of t!:c .\val.:~n rccaivc.J :!.air food prod:.ct!l fro::t '! •. \.

I'o·;e ll ;1:1d o:;H:r food t!istt'i!:utors i:1 c:.c o :her areo:~s ,:,f th ~ Conccpt!on J~J :!.:<! !ri::ity ;J.reas of ::e•Jfouncl:md. \ I sf: <1n;:l:i ur;;e t he ::ini!l t~r of Transpcrt.llt~on, I "~ose di:.trict is directly invol·,.ed, the dis trict of !!nr!Jour !!ab, to sive this petition as much support and consideration within the d!!j)artcen:: as is h=:ml:r possible. It is not a road in t!1is dny en:i .:~;;c t't<!t !las social values in the sense t!tat it •Jill !:Illite people

tlOre cogforta..~le, or ·.-i!l =!..Q access to their ~aces cuch core easy.

It 1s an econocic road and oecause, if that road is developed the econocay of the Southern Shore ~:ill gre<~tly il:lprove bot:l in a tou:-ist scn.se, •"-here we n~Tw Jo very lit:le tourist bw;icess, and certainly in our fish pla:1ts v!lic:t e~:~ploy 'Tell ~·~r 1 . ~ao ~ a o ~ l a in our our area, it certainly has some room for i::lprovet:Lat. !han!; "JOu, ::r. 3pcoll:ar. ::a. 5PI:.\.'CR; .:J. .:tUW\ .. :. ta~ lcd ~~e ?4 tition ar.d it is ;eing ?resented to the d ~ partoent to ~.-ili c:t it rcl<~tcs. 'lcll I rise ccrt:~inly to support t :te petition as present~:d 'by the hon. ce::lber, and a very, vary fine petition it is, a:1d eff ecting, as he .oait:,not only t:.e resid ents ar.d/or il~siness .:!l i:volvod :!.n FQrrylanJ, Ol' !.n Conception ::: :~y So ut!~, but als o .!.n :Iarilour .':r ~cc, in l'ri:- .!.::y, and in ::lany other c:o;::"unit :!.cl..

A.•~ thill is J. i)r!.ority i::cm. .\ltho~;:h \:c ~ ave letter& of recoiiiiDendation and sui)pOl't fro1:1 a nuQber of businesses, Oceaa :tar,c s ters a~d fish plants and so on on the Southern Shore, the fact is that froa a tourist point of vic11,and I hope the Minister of Touris::~ is ayare of this, I .:1:::1 sur~ he is, C:tat it of fer:~ a treaenc!Oil.ll or:port:1nity, if you had a i1ill.f decent co tor able art-ary th<lt ~ill <;O fr co the l'r;ln s-Canadll over to the Southern Shore and vice vel'sa; but from an economic point of view this is soiOIGthing that c:anr.ot ;e denied. ;;ou the :ar. ister of :'rans .,ortation I k."'ow t:ill uant to address Li::lself ~o thi s and to !:'::1te clearly 1:!!at his intenti ons arc for t !111 cocin& year s ince I c h.:lll l.Jec::t in char;;c of the publi c ?Ul'se for so long. ~~.'i: And his Ol:ll con:~ti::ucr.ts sit;nec! t :1e petition. ,\.~cl his own constituents are vary forceful, I not:!.ce,in this petition here.

And I ac s ure thnt he ~ill Vi1Ilt to 01ct in an honourable and very sensi ble 010d practical fashion on this petition a s I am sure he will.

:.pril 7, 197Lo Tape ~;o . 71.: .!R. !iiCr:::!!.\:1: G!r .::ola~:) vas supportinc; t:lis plltition ~u t apparently he is not. :ic is more concerned at:out tiu~ Lav Society thnn he is buildin& a road to llitless Bay. ,'\nd as the petition is related to the Witless Bay Line then obviously trese rather ~ratuitous co~ents, inaccurate as they nre,are totally out of order. }!R.!IL\RY: To that point o f order, l !J;. Speaker. ~IR.

SPEAKER: 1 have bogun t o rule on it so I would not he :1:..1 ... ~o .ulcw furt:ulr sub:.dssion ;;t tilis tio.~<. 7ho: point put by tu~ ~10 n. t1bister of Just:icc !a .1 correct oue. 'Zo wY io.lo\llcd~;e ne .u.d not intervened a::ci t<aeu t!1~ i10n. Llel:lber c;ot into :natters of the Law Society. So w~ ask iLlm to restrict :lis co~ents =o the road in questia~. :m. NOI.Alf: :;ell,even cecbers of the Law Society prouably would like to use this ro ad, ;1r.

Speaker. lloucver,getting back to the peti!ion again,I would :Jer e ly lll;e to say th:1t ::his is a vo..rj izlport:1nt lliltter that cli!Served ~:ae attention c f all m=bers o f tne ¥-ouse o f ,\ss~bly and certai n ly we are her~ r.ow spea~iag on bai1alf of all those who al.lve real proble.cs that they have been faced with for a long, long time on this particular road.

ADd I kno1.1 t.1at the !!inister of Transportation opposite is waiting to s ta:.~c.i now and ai.t:lounce eJ;actly ..:hat his proc;rm:ame i s. f or t his year o n the witless !lay L:!.ne, ~o;llat tney interui to do, whether t l'ley are going to do one mile or two or three or ~hatever it is •. And also perhaps he mit;ht be good enou~;b to outlir:e his plan for other d.!.stricts vilile lie is at it. nut let us first of all see w;tat his intentions are on tllis road for this co::1in!) yea-; which is so very, very i:::portant.

So we certainly support the prayer of the petition as presented by our han. friend opposite, SO:!E UOii. !lr:!IlERS: Hear , h.!ar: !IlL SPEAKER: l.:On. :ne:nber for Bay of Islands. UR. I.'OODROW: :lr. Speaker, I rise also to support the petition so ably and well presented by the member for Fe rryland (~~.Power) and cade up in such a genuine manner. I was under the i.l:lpression ~.;hen

: .;J ril 7 , 197& Tape ::o, 712 .• illiota s of pounds of fisa are t rnn.sportcd cv~:ry year over this road. I think it is prooab-11 pnss<~blOl about seven gonths a year. Am I right on that 1 Approxi::tatelyl Ao'i HON.!IEMBER: Yes. HR. NO~:: We are talkini in this respect not onl7 for the o\olller& of the pl<~nts but truckers, drivers. It is a.ca:ic; the nu::~b.ar of people 'l."ho are effect-ad .aither directly or indirectly by th~ state of the Witle3s Bay Line. It is the only link toot I kr.o\1 of, that I c:<~n thinl: of at the ::~ocent,betiO<!en t ;u~ Tr.::ans-Canada <Uld t hll- area.

It would also be n carvelous scenic rout~,aa I inaicntcd earlier. So I believe that we now have, I do not kno\1 if the :~on. c~ber ~entioned this, about fifteen cillion po~ds of fresh fisn that is hauled yearly to and fr~ the plant and al~o - liP., POtii:S; • ut, iiOL.-\:i: ,u; !iO;!.:·!l:::IDER: :>?.. :lOL.\!; : ntat is only for one cocpany. Just for one co::~p~ny. Yes,of course • ( It161udible) Perf .:lctly correct. An<i t here is fish of£:11 :md there is, as you have i:ulicated,oil. 'The non. :ae101ber iDentioned oil and gas and so on.

It is unfortunate socetimes that \ole cannot perhaps convey in the House tha seriousness of the situation as the person 1Joto is driving or atte:Dpting to drive tnnt road daily has to go through, or in the e~onths v.ten it is closed up the circuitora route that they have to go in order to get to the Southern Shgre, back aro~d Conception Day and so on, So I nop~ tl~t the cinister ~ith all the probl~ that n.a h.:1s on hill plate will tal;e o1 look. T.1e !louse Leader opposite thinlc.s it 1& all ver; hU~:~Drous.

If ;.:e \Jt!re taJking about the Law Society 1ww ~~d l s uppos~ the rccocceadations of Queen Counsels ;ou would •Ting your hands and roll your eyes heavenvard. Titis is a very serious proolCQ, On 11 ~oint of order, ~. Spenker. I \las under tbe mistaken igpression that the bon. camber for Conception Bay South

,·.pril 7 ,l!H3 Tape .;o. 712 :J..-j t ho.: aon .... e:nbe.- i or Couceptio u ~.1y South (::r. !{alan) spoke that he was speaiting on beilalf of all ~ilc. e~embers of hia caucua. 1 ng aaying this because I believe petitions 1wbile they are very important seem,to be getting a little repetitiuus. Hy opinion is that U: two people froa eac:h side of the House support it,it ~uld probably get the point across. Uowever,c~t is not my decision to make. Same persons. J;o,not necessarily that. It is to tr; to

April 7, 1978 Tape 713 EC - 1 MR. WOODROW: necessarily that, it is to try to help the people of the Province. In any ease, Mr.

Speaker, 1 support it for the following reasons: First of all it is going to help the most icportant industry in the Province of newfoundland and Labrador, na=ely the fishery; number two, it is also going to have an effect on tourism which is coming to be a great industry in the Province; and I do not know whether we could sa~ core important, but also it is going to have a big bearing on economic development which is so important in our Province as well; and last, but not least, it is coming from one of the hardest working melllbers in this bon. !Iouse of Asaembly - A.'J HOM • ~!E!-!1\EP : Rear, hear: UR. loOODROW: - and I support it from the bottom of- my heart.

Sot!E !iO:~ • IID'I!E?.S : near, hear: ~lR • S I'F.Ar.ER : The bon. the member for Bellevue. ~!R. CALLAH: ~r. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition presented by the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power). I am prompted to rise in support of any petition that has to do with roads in this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petit~ n I understand that the Minister of Transportation and Communications • has ap; roximately $100 cillion worth of requests for paving, upgrading and so on, of roads in this Province this year- that is outside, of course, t the ~oney allocated for the TCR - Sl~O cillion worth of requests and the minister according to the Budget has $14 million to accede to $100 million worth , of request~ . 1 Mr. Speaker, in runnin~ the danger of getting into the realm of debate, of course, I cannot help but say that, you know, this is not the first time that a petition vas brought in - AN RON.

MEHBER: And ignored. ntt. CALLA."': - in connection with this road. I reme~er a petition being brought in last vear and I •u~pose, ~ell,

April 7, 1978 Tape 713 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: perbaua the last ten years, I do not know. I have not been here that long, but I a. wondering perhaps in view of the fact that the minister has only $14 million in his Budget - the Province can only afford to spend $14 million - to accede to $100 million worth of requests, if this road for that reason cannot be paved or upgraded this year, perhaps it would he vise to have better maintenance on not only this road but other roads as well.

I thinl;, for example, of the :-'arkland Road \.lhich is a oerennial problem - it comes up every year - and this time of the year, of course, it is in a terrible, terrible state. And I wonder, ~!r, Speaker, vhether or not ministers of Transportation and Communications, as they cooe and so, put enou~~ time and effort into seeing that the maintenance ere~~ of the ·Department of Transportation and Communications are doing all that they should be doing?

I had a conversation last night tlith a lady fro~:~ Harkland who told D:e that the grader was in every now and then, but the blade is not even dovn, you know, so blindfolding the devil in the dark, I think, is vhat 1a happening in a lot of cases.

And I have had occasion to 'phone the local foremen in connection with grading, getting rid of potholes on roads and so on, and Uhy these things are not done on a regular basis is beyond me. t~y is it necessary for me or a lady in Markland or anybody else to have to keep 'phoning to foremen or to supervisors, superintendents and so on to try and see that the road is maintained in a half decent condition in the mirldle of the summer or in the spring thau or whenever it happens to be?

So perhaps if money cannot be found for this road - I hope that maaey can be found for this road, I hope that ~oney can be found far many of the bad roads in all the districts, in my own as well as others, but obviously it cannot, we know from the Budget figures that it cannot and we know fro~ what the minister has been saying in connection vith the $100 million worth of requests. So perhaps that is not a bad idea to kee~ in mind, to maY.e sure that the ~intenance erew are spending their dollars visely and usin~ their

April 7, 1978 Tape 713 FC • l MR. CALL~~: machinery visely and spending their time visely . You knov, ve hear from time to time about the highvays people playing eards during the vinter and so on, I travel on the TCH every day, and yesterday

April 7, 1978 Tape 714 P1l: - l MR. CALLAN: ~rning as I drove in, you know, it was treacherous driving on sections of the Trans-Canada. You know, you could see the difference between where one crew, one highway's crew was in charge of doing a

section of the Trans-Canada, and then there was a cut off where the other crew took over, and there was the difference between night and day. There is somethinr terribly wrong. There is something terribly wrong with the discren~ncy that exist between what one highway's crew can do and what the other can do. Mr. Speaker, I support that petition whole-heartedly. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am just going to take a moment to support the netition so ably presented by my colleague for Ferryland (Mr. Power) for two reasons, Sir.

First of all, because it is just amazing to me that this piece of road has not been upgraded and paved before. It is just so logical that it escapes the imagination of why it has not been given higher priority in years gone by. The effect that it will have on the economy of that area, the transportation of fish and fish products and the tourist industry in that area, Sir, would certainly be a fair justification for giving that road a higher priority. Secondly, that the paving and upgrading of that road would greatly reduce the amount of traffic in other areas.

The route that people are now forced to take in the Kilbride area · and in my own area of Mount Pearl and the Donovans area, taking the tractor trailers and the heavy trucks that are hauling thes e fish products ~ ~ d putting them over that route is a great advantage to other areas outside of the Ferryland district itself. So I would ce"~:tainly, Si1:, give 'that petition my whole-hearted support. MR. SPEAKER: DR. KITCHEN: this petition. The hen. member for St. J ohn's West. Mr.

Speaker, I too would like to add my support to I can appreciate very well the problem that the Minister of Transportation has in allocating priorities amongst the various roads that need to be paved and ~p graded. I was wondering in supporting this petit i on if we could alt; o perhaps r1ake some thought s

April 7, 1978 Tape 714 PK - 2 Dr. Kitchen : with respect to how money is all ocated and the criteria that are used. Such criteria, for example, could be used as commitments in the last Provincial election, the promises, and if Markland was promised Markland should be paved over one that was not oromiaed, o~ say,if Witless Bay was promised . ThAt Might be a cr•t erton, to check back into the election promi• es, I happen to know, for example, that the candidate for the Conservative Party in the election in Bellevue distri ct did promis e that the road would be upgraded and paved, for example.

The previous Minister of Transportation also made a written commitment,of which I have a COPYtthat that road would be upgraded . And I think that these previous commitments made by previous ministers could be checked when you are figuring out where the Sl4 mil lion should be spent, if previ ous commitments could be looked at wheth er it be I.Zitleas Bay, Markland and • o on, and also petitions that are presented . Also perhaps another one would be the economy of the area. It is mentioned that the Witless Bay Line carries fish offal and fish going back and forth. That is an important point .

Another point might be whether an area is a farming community, such as Markland, where they would export their products, sell their farming products to people who come and go. That would improve the economy greatly, or getting to work in Come By Chance or wherever they happen be working~ in ERCO. / · So what I am saying is tbat we should have certain criteria oerhaps that could be used to decide which of these verv deserving roads,including the Witless Bay Line 1 needs paving, and not the least of which should be previous promises made in an election and by previous ministers and present ministers. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, in saying a few words in support of the petition I am sure it is recognized by the administration , recognized by the Department of Transportation,in fact, as long ago as three

April 7,1978 Tape 714 PK - 3 Mr. Morsan: years ago that the importance of that road to be upgraded and paved, and the t.portance it is to a number of provincial districts, and it vas Viewed then by the administration bare that it be considered to be a road to resources because of its importance to the fishing industry and to the tourism industry tn the area. And looking at the tourism induscry,for example, the potencial in the Ferryland

April 7, 1978, Tape 715, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: area, the Witless Bay bird sanctuary, the Avalon wilderness area, the historic points in the Ferryland district in general, it would definitely improve the tourism industry by having that road paved. I recall the last two years that I was in Transportation we asked the federal government for assistance, because it is a road to resources, and we were hoping that the federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion would consider including that road in their DREE agreement. However, it was not included. I know there are limited funds again this year.

We are talking about $14 million or $15 million in provincial funds. All the roads in the Province cannot be paved, but I am hoping that our colleague the Minister of Transportation will give every consideration, which I know he will, to that road. But it depends, again, on the amount of funds available for all over the Province and the priorities and demands in respective areas of the Province. But I do support the petition because it means a lot to the general area in regard to industry for the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: MR. H.

COLLINS: The hon.Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question No. 35 in the name of the hen. member for LaPoile. He asked me, "What is the cost per bed for each of the following hospitals." I will not list them now because I will have to list them again in a minute. We prefer to give the cost per patient day rather than the cost per bed, because the best way to to this to truly reflect what it costs one to occupy a hospital bed is a per patient day cost. The St. John's General Hospital - all of the hospitals are not mentioned here, just the ones

April 7, 1978, Tape 715, Page 2 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: which the hon. member asked for - the St. John's General Hospital the per diem cost in 1977-78 is $181.45J the James Paton $ll4.20J the Central Newfoundland $108.60J Carbonear General $124.60; Waterford $72.301 Western Memorial $151.60J The Capt. William Jackman $171.30; Dr. Charles A.Curtis $114.20; Dr. Walter Templeman - these are the names of the hospital, Mr. Speaker - Dr.

Walter Templeman $142.50; Sir Thoma Roddick $133.20; Channel $102,50: Bonavista $115.00; Burin $115.00 and Grand Bank $115.00; Notre Dame Bay Memorial Hospital $96.30 and the Springdale Hospital $151.15. These are the various rates of cost per patient day. AN HON. MEMBERS: What accounts for the difference in rates? MR. H. COLLINS: ratio. The ratio is beds are occupied.

Well, you have to look at the in terms of the number of days which Question - I think this is question No. 41. wTo ask the Minister of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: Has the Government a master plan for homes for geriatric care throughout Newfoundland and Labrador? If so, would the Minister table a copy of this plan?" I am pretty sure it is question No. 41 but it should be directed to my colleague the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I want to respond to a question that was asked me when we were going through the estimates of the Department of Mines and Energy and I thought this was the best chance for me to put it into the record, because I had undertaken to do so. (.),

April 7, 1978, Tape 715, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORO: The question was concerning what subhead did the Heritage of the Sea booklet which was distributed throughout Newfoundland - under what subhead was that paid. The subhead is llOl-02-03 which is professional services, and it was part of the allotment that was passed by the House in last year's budget and did not take an additional amount. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for LaPoile.

In the absence of the hon. the Premier, Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Finance could tell us if the government have received the telex from Peat, Marwick stating that there are only two proposals in connection with the come by Chance oil refinery, one from Ultramar and one from some mysterious Arabian corporation?

1'a po .:o . 715 .... - 1 The hon. :!inistar of J ustic a . ~~ My colleague, the :tinister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, is still the minister with the pri::1e responsi~ility in respect of nesotiations. So if the hon. gentle::~an l;ould prefer 1 ·.~ould like to rafar the question to the minister razponsible for Intar~over~ental Af!airs. St~p pointin s , it i s rude to j)Oint. ~e hon . !linister of !nter; o ve~ental Affair s . ··r:. • .,.,,...')'{: :•r.

S peal: ~r, t here 1J3S 3 t cl c :: cane: in l as t n i<;~t fro:"l the receiver \ ~i1ich outlined the details of one offer, not ~ :o of!ars, an offer frol':l Ultrm:.lr, Golc!e:1 !':agle, that is 3 len11:thlv docu::~ent which is currently being analy::ed by the officials in the De?art~ent of Incustrial Devolop=ent, Finance and Inter ~o ver~c n ~l , \ff.:~irs an:!. lJe 1{111 h :ou tl!lre about : he details :Jnd contents of the o ffer later toc!a :t ! ~ :oould :~Ssu:::e. !IR. ~I EA!'.Y : A ~ uppla ::l e.ntar:,· • .\ c uppl e:~en ta.ry.

Yould the hon. the :inister indicate whether or not, and I a= sure the ~nister had gone through the docucen t, t !Je telex, it c:a:tnot !:e t hat lon;, t o be :1ble t o tell t he !lous e ·:~et'l cr or not this is a prop osal jus t to st or:l oil a t Co::e 3y Ch:uu:e, t o use i t as a trnns-shipment port and not ope rata the refinery and jus t ~::ploy fifty or s b :ty people, ::.nybe n l c:as n=.~o r , ".nd •tol!ld t he :-.ir.i stcr indic.1t c ·;het!l cr Ultramar havo upped the ante fr~m $11) ::~ill! on t o $1::! ::~il li o:1 ~ou i n t ':i!l l~ te!lt ;:r o;:osa l :>! t hei r s.

TI-c han . : ~ ini:l t e r of I n~or;;ovl! r:-.::~:n t :ll .Hf:1ir'l. ! t :!.s :rue, Si r, that I 'lilvc httd ~n Opj?ortunit y t o :~!- in t 'lc c!oc:u:"lcnt but I ccr tnin l y ;rill no t be able t o s ;- ~k t:it '1 any au t hority a s to th e abs olute cont e"\t of it. So t ho hon. !lous e •1Ul luwe t o 3ccept a.-tythin g that I say vith th e ruerva t i on t hat I have not :.aJ t ho occasion and pro~ a!J ly t he tale n t to be a!Jle to full y analy ze the fine print. It i s a very lengt hy clocU::Ient. I ~uess it is abou t tye nt y iHl u CS o f a = ~lc:x so it t:L.. ~ .1 litth bi t of <!oi u;;.

..,.. ': ..... ;x;o;:,r. or1t;il1.:11 operation of the refinery t:ould be c.s a tr.:ans ·-shi?cant .:1nd :ltOr.:lge filcility with t!1c ultiZlllte ai::l ·.:!thin a period of a year or t"Jo, I = not sur:~ of :!l(l tice are4, to translate t~at or trilnsfor!l.l t<.at into an oparati:lg refil:.r.r:, Whether that iG .:1 cowci~~nt or a possibility or a ~roba~ili:y or a cart.:li4t r or .:1 gtl.:lrcr.::ail, I a:1 not car:.:lin of.

As I sa}·,I ila.-:a not !111d ::111 or;:ortc.nit:; to e;et that ki:1d of infor1:1.:1tica o: that !.!nu of I co kno\0' that tlle $10 cillion ·.:hich olaS o;;u!::sa;ucntly bee:~ ;lescribed ;~:; $12 ;:dllion, :1re nucbers ::tat t:a r.! usee :1ot as a paywent as su~~ for the refinery as ~n asset, '.:ut r:1ther as a payt~.;nt to t:.e ;;riels !• .,..ho loo!:ed after t!:c ::lOt!i!.allint; ~ nd stora&c char~cs uur!n; the past period of ti:a since th~ lihutuo11n.

T!:e .:.=u:~~ 1~hich ~.- as quoted ,u $10 uillion so.:e tine ::go is n<:~l closer in ::;t~ ·.ricini:y of $1: ::illion aucl so I .-ssu;:e tl111 $1:1 aillion :u1s ~eec raisad to cover that nc!ditio=l n=unt of money. It is not intended, .:15 I understand it, as n payment for the ref!nery a~ such, out rathar t~ ralieve the ~ritish of the obligation for t he ;:;othballin:; .:1nd caintcn.:mcc char J;cs t~at t!.ay !:.1ve undergone ovl!r tl:c past period of tice. liR. :lE.AP.Y: A supplementary, Hr. Speal:.er. :m.

S!'i::.':!~R: A supplecentary. :Toulri the hen. cini:aer t hen cara to indicate ~ ~hat :.ili'pcnc!d to tha S ha.~cen p:Oi' OS<ll? :':1 unC.:erst o.ndin& of the ans':~ r the ho:1. ~entli!Qan just gave ~e is that there is no provision made to ta!~ e cara of :my of t he creditors in t!1is t;l ::ra=r C:cal, t•hich sccz to :::e t o !:e scanl!alous if t ha covarn:.uant acce;>ts t!aat, but oe that ns it ;:ay, the governt~ent has it in its po~o.'Cr to ~·oto t'1is agr~e:ll!nt and I hope that they do it.

But uhat happened to the Shaheen proposal whereby they would spend $100 million to rei'ay the first and second ~ortgagee, pay off the local creditors, and start up the refinery, =l:c the: nec~J: c; :lry ad1ustlli! nLs to tt1e rc:fincry, ::n.! repair it, nnd deroth!>all

.'.;'lirl 7, l~ i S !:t;1c .;o . 716 ·::t • J :!R. l~EARY: it, gat it '.:.aek in oper:ttion and so fort !1, "'hat happened to that proposal? '!ou knov,\:hy is that not before the adnillter? ~:R. SPEA!'.ER: :m.. NEARY: T:1e bon. Hinister of tntergovern:!llentlll Aff:tirs. If the bon. gentle=n haa a copy of suc.lt 01 propo!!:tl or c:t:J have acca ss to such a proposal, : h e Gov~ =e.'\t l)f :le•..:foundland \Oill ~e oost happy to sec it :~nd to entertain it, to look 3:: ic :tn:l t o seriously consid er it. !:nfortunately ··e :1 avo :\O I under:.t:tnc! c:1:1t a propoRel l)as fon::trc! e d c:~rou;;h the rec e iver to t~e Govern=ent of Creat Jriti:tn, or :tt l e~st

April 7, 1978 Tape 717 £C - 1 ~. DOODY: the 'ECCD and !Ueinwort- Benson, and I understand further that they have returned that proposal to the Shaheen interests. The Province of Newfoundland have not seen that proposal, have not been involved in that proposal and have not been privy to its contents much as we would like to. It could very vell be a ouch more favourable proposal t han this one; I do not know, I have not seen it, I cannot say. All I can say about it is that we have not seen it, it has not come to us . ~e uould like to see it, to examine it and to know exactly what it contains. I heard ~r.

Taube this morning on the radio talking in terms of an immediate start up with 400 or son jobs and 2,500 construction jobs 1Vhich is an absolutely delightful • concept. There is nobody in this !louse or nobody in this Province who uould question s uch a proposal if it carne forward - they tJould be crazy to turn it t!ovn- but I have seen no such proposal and I am sure that nobody in government has seen such a proposal. And as I say, if the han. gentleman opposite can provide us with a copy, we would ~e delighted to have a look at it.

Another statement t bat the bon • .amber ~de was that government have the pouer to veto this proposal Which ca=e in . It may not be technically correct. I do not think that we do have the r ower to veto it. ~aybe this Legislature has the power to t~te s ooe action to prevent such a disposal of the asset . There is a differ ence, as the hon.

Damher pointed out, detailed to us here in one of his lengthy lectures a littl e while ago about the difference bet~een the government ond the Legislature, and I always pay very close attention to the bon. member and listen attenti vely and learn quite a l ot - not necessarily always beneficially, but I learn quite a lot. MR. NEARY: ~. DOODY: det:IOnStration of that di ct uCJ. SO!!E ItO!~ . !!fl!EE'l.S: (Inaudible) There could not be a bette r Oh , oh!

April 7, 197fl Tape 717 rc • 1 MR. ~l!ARY: t 11111 not: ask the hon. gentle= - embarrassin~ ouestions n011 (inaudible). l:R. WOOOP.O!ol: l!R. DOODY: Consider yourself destroyed! That is one of the first recognitions of huailitv that the hon. gentleman, vho has so ~uch to be humble about, has ever come fotvard with. ~:P.. ~IEAR'Z : Would you not have a better transaction being married off to l~r. Shaheen 1 1-'1\. nt~m : MR. !1. WINiJtif R: : !R • DOODY : Another red herring. Another red herring, yes . tlr. Speaker, there very 11ell may be sol"..e sort of vendetta carried on against l'r. Shaheen.

I have absolutely • no kno11ledge of such goings on. It soun~s - I think that is an Italian ter.:l that is r.lOStly associated '!lith a !'afia type operation. 1 hi\Ve no ~~ouledge of it , I have no interest in it and I am certainly not involved in it. I have nothing to do '!lith it at all, if indeed there is such a strange custom in being. ~. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 't l!!'... SP!:.\I~tR : ~. NEARY: A supple~entary by the original questioner .

Does the non. gentleman not think it is uorth his uhile in view of the fact that the bon . gentleman heard the same telephone conversation that I heard this =nrning, and in view of other information that the bon. gentleman has and knowledge that the bon. sentleman has, does he think it is not worth his while to check with the receivers, to check with Pl!at, !faruick to find out if there is a proposal? l'ecause my understanding of 11hat that gentleman said this morning was that there is no doubt in anybody's llind that there has been a telex sent to Pea~ ~arvick making a proposal, and there have been letters of credit from the banks and so forth.

And this proposal ia to reopen the refinery, to demothball it, start it up again, put in a petro-chemical complex, put in the necessary equipment that was left there • or correct th" lllistakes that were made in the original refinery and so forth, ;nd this sounds like a pretty good

April 7, 1978 Tape 717 £C - J HR. NEARY: deal. Why would the minister not be interested in following that up? HR. J. CARTER: l~y do you not 'phone your friend, Shaheen, and find that out? HR . DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I thought I just made that perfectly clear that if such a proposal or such an opportunity is available, the Province would be verv in teres ted in follatlinF. it up. Indeed, we would be oore than irresponsible if we did not follow it up. t;e have every intention of contacting the Peat ,l!arvick people this morning. 1\!J a IIIStter of fact, I understand they have one of their representatives in St.

John's on stand-by waiting to have a discussion with us on this proposal that ca~ in on the telex last night, and as soon as we get the opportunity today we will be meeting with them. If, indeed, there is some substance in the telex that the bon. gentleman describes as coming from the Shaheen interests,we will certainly be asking PeatJiarvick about them and we •will follcv it up, There vas some suggestion this morning of a reputable or well-known bank who are willing to underwrite the cost of this operation on behalf of the Shnheen group.

There was no name of the bank given, but presumably that information must be in the hands of somebody other than the Shaheen group, It is certainly not in the hands of the Government of Newfoundland.

April 7, 1978, Tape 718, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: We know the name of no such bank, but if Peat, Marwick do, or if ECGD, or Kleinwort-Benson or any of the other principals have that sort of information they certainly should have given it to us earlier. We will find out from them today,if they have it, why they have not given it to us. MR. NEARY: supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Your Honour, one final A final supplementary. The Mr.

Speaker, I would hope, Sir, that there is no political vendetta involved in this whole matter,that the interests of the Province are being put above personal or political vendettas. I would ask the minister to assure members of this House that before any· deal is made with Ultramar to take over that refinery down there to use it for a transshipment port or to store oil, and not operate the refinery, that any proposal will be first of all brought before the floor of this House so that it can be thoroughly debated and that the facts can be laid on the Table of the House.

I want to get the minister's assurance that that will be done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, insofar as it is within the capability or capacity of this government to make that assurance, certainly that I will do. I cannot be held responsible for the actions of the ECGD people, of the first mortgage holders. If they make some sort of a deal with Ultramar we may have to take some action after the fact. MR. NEARY: Do not weasle your way out. MR. DOODY: I am not trying to weasle my way

April 7, 1978, Tape 718, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY. out. I do not know what they may do outside this House of Assembly. We may have to look at it in the House of Assembly after the fact. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) we can deal with MR. DOODY: Well, that is exactly what I just said. After the fact we may very well have to have a very serious look at it in the House of Assembly . But I cannot give an undertaking on behalf of those other principals, other than the Government of Newfoundland.

The Government of Newfoundland will certainly provide the House with all the information that is at its disposal before the Government of Newfoundland makes a decision. it. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize one supplementary. The hen. member for Bellevue then the hon. gentlemen for Conception Bay South and Stephenville. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister saying then that before any decision is made by this government regarding the disposal of the refinery, is the minister saying that there is a possibility in view of the fact that there is a resolution on the Order Paper in my name, in whose district, of course, the refinery sits, is there a possibility that this resolution will be called and that the House can have a full-scale discussion and debate on the whole come by Chance thing? Because there never has been a debate.

I think the former Premier spoke a couple of years ago for a few minutes and John Crosbie, but there has never been a full-scale debate. Can we assume this resolution will be called before any decision is made by government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, all I can under- take to do is to keep the House fully informed as to the events that transpire surrounding the Come by Chance negotiations as they are provided to the Government of Newfoundland, and that I have undertaken to do. I am

April 7, 1978, Tape 718, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: certainly not in a position to inform the hen. member when a resolution will be brought before the House. That is ~certainly not within my jurisdiction or authority. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Rehabilitation. I wonder would the minister be good enough to inform the House , or tell us to what degree there was political interference in admitting the young lady who bas been much in the news recently to Exon House?

And was the board that would decide on admissions, who apparently, from the evidence we have, suggested and said and stated that the lady in question should not have been in there in the first place, bow is it then that that young girl did end up in Exon House? Perhaps the minister would now be good enough to explain to this House the political implicati~ns of such a decision. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: and Rehabilitation. MR. HICKEY: Hear, hear! The bon. Minister of Recreation Mr. Speaker,first of all let me say that there was no political interference in the admission of this young lady to Exon House. AN HON.

MEMBER: Oh! MR. HICKEY: I am sorry if I am not giving somehon. gentlemen over there what they might like to hear, seeing they want to use this issue as they have been trying to use it for the last few days, Mr. Speaker. If they want the truth I will give them the truth. MR. NEARY: Answer the question. MR. HICKEY: There is not anything to hide in this case. Not one single thing to hide, nothing. ll - (I

April 7, 1978, Tape 718, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: The Premier admitted already he - MR. HICKEY: The Premier admitted no such thing, Mr . Speaker. The Premier admitted doing his job as a good M.H.A. for a constituency which every single member in this House does, including every hon. gentleman opposite. SOME BON. MEMBE~ : Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Answer the question, boy. MR. HICKEY: I am trying to answer the question, if you can have somebody just put a button on their lip over there. MR. NEARY: Behave yourself, now. MR. HICKEY: As recent, Mr.

Speaker, as this week a member of the Opposition made representation, strong representation,to Exon House fer the ldmission of a child to that institution. Did he know all the facts, pertinent facts,as

April 7, 1978 Tape 719 PK - 1 Mr. Hickey: to whether or not that child should have been in there, should not have been in there, what her I.Q. was, or his t.Q. whatever the case might be? No! He was doing his job as a MHA, the same as the Premier was doing, and that is all the Premier did. That is all the Premier did, Mr. Speaker, was simply made a representation, a n~ in fact I do not even think the Premier himself did it, I think his office did it lUI such,which is very oft en the case.

And I want to say categorically right now t ~ erc has been some evidence given by a member of the Admission's Committee that must not be construed to mean that the Committee as a whole did not favour the admission of this young lady. I have the file which I have gone through in detail, and I have a comment from t~ e former administrator, who was chairman of that Committee. He aays ,''This ease is a very deserving one for this institution, but because we have no room shall not be admitted at this time.· That was to a social worker in Corner Brook.

And then he asked for a report from the social worker in C~er Brook, and the social worker came back with a detailed case history on the girl herself, the family problem, the inability of the parents to cope with the girl, her whole case history, the case history of the parents, the mother especially, and her problems from a point of view of ill-health, and her inability to cope with the tituation. There was just no other place to place this young lady. We do not enjoy the luxury, Mr. Speaker, of having sheltered foster homes. That programme is now in place.

It is unfortunate that it was not put in place long ago when that institution vas first opened, but they are in place now. And I want to say categorically, and I hooe that this is the last time 1 have to say it, that whilst there nioht have been some dissension on the part of the Admission's Committee to admit this girl, purely and simply from the point of vi~ that the institution, operating as it was at the time, not that she did not have a problem with regrade to retardation, but because of the structural facilities

April 7, 1978 Tape 719 PlC - 2 Mr. Hickey: in terms of the institution, and the lack of some facilities in the institution, plus the fact i nsofar as the doctor's comments were concerned who was the person who had some obiection to it, was the fact that this girl could be trained,and could receive training which would obviously greatly improve her I .Q. and this has indeed been proven .

There is also a statement in the files from the administrator in the Department of Social Services, and a detailed report from a social worker after the girl was placed in this second foster home I might say-she was first placed in a foster home on the West Coast, and could not remain there because the people could not cope with the girl. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: Merely a behavioural problem. And it was after thnt - - that is all. It was after that - "'ell whether, Mr.

Speaker, it is a behavioural problem or whatever it was I aM sure the bon. ~entleman is the first to agree that this government or this administration cannot leave a young girl like that on the street, if her parents cannot cope with her. MR. NEARY: Professional people said do not put the child in that institution . MR. HICKEY: Professional people said no such thing. One professional person said that. Three other professional people said, yea. MR. NEARY: HR. HICKEY: HR. NEARY: HR. MORGAN: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: Three. Who sai~ do not put her in? One. The one who gave evidence (inaudible).

Do not get involved in a debate with him. Mr. Speaker, I said that - Who is the author1ty1 HR. HICKEY: - va have information of one medical doctor, and that lady,vho is well respected and well regarded and whose comments or opinions are not taken lightly , spelled ouc very clearl y her

April 7, 1978 Tape 719 Mr. Hickey: reasons for c oncern, and they were valid, Mr. Speaker; it was because of the inadequacies of the institution. She at no time certified that this young lady did not suffer from mental retardation. She at no time said that this young lady did not receive or want treatment. HR. NEARY: HR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: How do we know that? We want an investigation. The hon. gentleman knows because I nm telling him - Oh I see, and everything ,. the hon. gentleman - That is why he knows it.

Everything the bon. gentleman tells us is true. Order, please: nrder, ~ lea se! Yes, it is true. Oh, yes. Order, please! The hon. minister was replying to a question from the hon. member for Conception Bay South, and I cannot allow internal debates. A supplementary,the hon. member for Conception Bay South.

Ailril 7,1 97a. !al)>l no .ul-1 .~ . ::ot..A::: A sapple.t.ent :aty to t :ac bon. ~ ini,;t.: r. Is the winister prepared to table in this liouse,omitting the name of the individual eoocerned who waa :~dmitted, the rec01:1111eadation of the Acbisai ow; Coc::dc:tee wt this individual should have been admittedl And secou~ly,in view of the fact that t>~ero are people in this Province that many cul:ers of this How;e know nded this kind of care in th:lt hocc, is it now ~ecc s sary to have ~.ac ciirlilct int~rvention of t !le Pruier c:o h.:~ve a ~:orthy person aduittcd to that home? \."holt 15 your policy?

Cowc on. :m. ltiC:'-EY: ~lr. Speaker, that is .1bout as cheap a for.~ of politics as I have ever he.:1rd in cy life . !Ill.. NOI..~il \.iell tell us about it. ~0. li!Cl'J:Y: necause the llHA for the district from which t.li.i l.:ldy coces hapi'cns to be t:.e Pret~i.:r of the Province ,is the ilon. aentlCl:lan s ayina th:lt a::."} of nis colluagues over t here l.'hen :hey c01ll cy cep.ui:Dent or directly,! Lli&:lt say, the ad:Dinistrator of th.:lt inlltitution clo not receive ~;oot: service. Are they saying talllt? :m. \o'HITE: We uo not (Inaudible) ::&. UICI\EY: We do not know. rla sura do know, ~, r.Spcaker.

Tb.l jlcopl~ in ;;y llepatt:lent oad che people ill t il.lt i ns titution b~ll over backwrds for any =ember of the Opposition o.ny :~ember of t .li3 !louse, ;my doctor or any Qe::lber of the public becaa.se we o.re co~tt c d to help f~ilies •no ~ ~va childr en ~ho ~re reta rc~J .:10d 1.i1o suff e r froc ccntal r c tarcction. Tiut i s ao t .:1 partisa n i ssue • • lr .

Speat. e r. it iii nnybody' s C.:lSe nnd !t •oultl ue:IOOVC so:::e l,on, b~ntlCC.:!U 0 0j>OOi tC if t:1cy lo'OUlC !..CCJ: thi S iTI oiud aacl •lOt Jct.!..:lp t t o d rac; thl.:J cil.!le and t:1!s is.oue a cro ss t he fl<.Jor of c:ais Uousc o..,y i:lOrc than is .:!Silenti.:ll. I c~n a ss ur e cy hon. fr iun~:. ri;;ht now - l .:!t us put the w.1ole issue to r~ 9 t . ! I :now that ;1a can ~e ruliona ule, And let 1:1e siJo:ply say tnis> I will investigate the possibility of tabling whatever inforgation can be tabled without

April 7 ,197:J t ape :ro. 7:!0 .'.P.-2 .:t\. l.IC!:.I:Y: viol&ti:~z t.ll! pt ivacy or a01y ;:e:::onal t&l!r.;; ;."hi.ch should uot indeed be tabled. I assure CIY ~1on. friend m.a I assure every member of this l!ouse, I assure the for the final tirae, ~~.

Speaker, that I have investigated the case and if I was not so :~ure 1 could sit hero& and be silent aad not ansver tile question in t nis kind of detail, I ;~ive the assuranctl now that the Prel:lier of th..: Provinc:e did not, I repeat\did not place this 0 1:-1 in that institution. :·ty dcpartt.eut pl.:~ccd her t iler e. !i~ere ~.;as a difference of cvinion on the com::~ittee, 'r.1e fomcr adol.nistrlltor,~;ho \tZ.S t .• e ci1ain:an, l:as in writi:~ g indicated thu views of the co=ittec :1s such .

T:1e Social t·:orker in Co=er Brook reco=cnded it. ~ow what else do ~o·c lo':lnt? .\re we going to try to say now still that the Premier put this girl 1n the institution ! Ail !DN .:!E!IBER: ~!R. HICKEY: , lR • lit CK.CY: We are not saying that. Not saying that - oh, no! l·:r. Spc<lkcr, the other point tr.<lt e.1st I bQ a::11!o!:ln..i it is a ver y criticall 'cne, tile other poir.t that cust !::ta =de is this; the public at lart;e :lli&ht well set tne iopression fro1:1 the debate in this !louse that so::~eone 10ent: throug!l t!\a Welfare of Children's Act under the

section covering neglect and literally took this girl from the ho=e. That is not so, !~ . Speaker, T'ncre I..';;!S rct~ ru.:: c.ltaion made by the parents to c:ac institution, to the department, to the Premier's office; they ware desperate, they ~ere be&ging to l~ve this airl placed. What in the nace of God are you supposed to do? Let the :,~irl,as I saic!,run on tile paths? I.IR. KITCHEl: ,\ sup j)l e!:tentary Sir, HR. SPIWCER: A supvleQentary. Hen . ~bar for St. Jo hu's j,'cst. ilr.

Speaker, the question whic\1 has been raised here on which I want to ask a suppl~entary is a very serious one concerning a great number of cllildren 1n t!1is Province 1 sol:le of who1:1 are in 1:1y district. I remo:mber a cAse where the parents had been trying to get their child into txon House for nine years. ' ·I f

A;>ril 7 ,!. 973 Tape _;o, 71.J . !R, .iOL..;.l: .Hnl!. yeorsl Dil.KITCl!E.~: !line years. And this is why this question is so icportaut ~ to tbe procedures by which children ~re ad=itted to tne care that they need when the home on the ~vise of psychiatrists and other people find it unable to 1:14nage these children or to provide tae care, the specialized care that is required.

So my ~ucstion is this, when can the aini.&ter as6ure us that 'I."C will have soce sort of a census carried out as to the total needs in the Province,and ':.:!len c:m we aava an adequate pro. ra='- pro;>olic.o to the Jouse for t ae care of all ~ ucb people? ~ine years is too long. .\nd wnen can we have a proposal put in the !ludget, t hese t~ree thi ngs, a census, a progr~e and the funds to c over it? :iaybe it would require core t hilll just a quick answer. P~rhaps :tort of ;1 ~ l inisterial Sute~:~ent on it or :Jocethin;;.

:., t!l 7' ! ~7J ~ · T!le 1-.on . ::tnister of r-ecreation and 'tehnbUit01tion. :m. niCK.."'Y: t~. Speaker, I velcoce the opportunity to speA\: briefly on the subject r01iseci by r:ry han. friend. !le is :~!l :;o lutcly right \:hen he says that t.'lere is a need for this ... l.inc of :l:lses~ent. ! c:~n :~:;sure hb ric;ht nou that that nssess::~e::t one of the c~ i a ~ r~co~~enda:!ons of the recent enquiry or report, or ~e tt ~r :tat!o:t:ll !:'!sti:ute. .~-:.d •:r.

S;Jcaker, ue !:lust be.:~r in nil'!'.! thnt tl- e 1:-~ ~ t:!.tution "11S, before beeo:rlr..;; :::-.. ::m House, 3S a hor..e for ~nta! c!-ildrcn. '!h<::n i: •·::::~ opened there '.las socethins li!;.e lZO ~o·ent ...... :~:i~LY: It certainly wEs not (inaudible) • .... ....... :ilC~I: The hon. gentletlllll CO'W' 1 ~ b:. Speaker, I ::a. ::L.\R'{: Tha r.on. gentleman ~de a hospital out of it. ;a. iiiC':J:Y: ::r. S p~W~cr, I stand on :-.y r!;;hts, I s tat:ri on -:;y ::i,;:1::J 1Your :~o::our,and I Ol:ll: to be heard in s Uence - Order, please! · by the hgn, centl.:!O.:u\ :oho iS 0uilt:,• Of creatin& the hgcpital.

Order, ? lCil ~ c~ n:-c!ar, plea se : '!l:c 1\ 0 n. if t:1ar :: 1:1 <1 dif:arenc~ o f Ovinion the re ~o.ill be :l.n opportc.'lit7 fo:: uo!bi:ltC of t!1e :.att ar 1 l:-ut ri(;:lt li~IJ t!le hgn, :;entlctun ins ists on :1!s ri&hts 3ncl he coes h01ve that right. !~. !!ICKE't .. Than!~ j'OU very i!IUch, :tr. Speaker. Any hon. 3entl~ ·o~ho cannot sto.nd the heat set gut of the kitchan. !!!t. tlE..\R'I. A point of grder. A point o f order has arisen . 1

I ltould lit::: to "Di>~t out to t ... e hon. 'f s .. ·• . ouse, ir, that the hen. gentletlall just 1: d f 1 s ate a a sehood, th3t one of the cost kn01o1led:;:e3ble ~:~en in C.:mada, Dr. s tanlev. f •r !I ro!ll . e~r rtmStric!:, ca~:~e down ~ere, was an advi~er on the opening of tnat institution, It vas a tr~in:;: L~titution.

It .. ~at o.~f ~ ... e r~~·s f ~" M~ ~ ter t~c atcinistrntion !!y han. friend is ::llsldndbr t'.•e ".ouse, I c! .. o not l ;::o~,· "!'!~th o r it is :!eli~er o:~ tel::~ or ot!1ero.rise, but !le attcrcd 3 falsc!1 ood :~r:.d t'le hon. ;;e::t!et:::n::. shoul .J r~tract it or !:o disciplir. ed by Your '!onocr. •rn t"'t)r• ':. '~. ..:;.;.:..-~·~· " rder, ~lu:- e! C'n t'l.::.t ;:oi-.t of o :-c!~ r, I .to ::ot S!!!! t!lat t!lcr~ is ;\ point of order. There is a difference of D:'ini on bct-Jeen t~ro hon. :"1er:bcn1.

One !Jon. c;cmtlc::~an st:~tes that it '·'lis ope:~ ed 3s a ho!<:pi::al, the other hon. sentletllln St3tcs that it •·ms not. a difference of o~inion ~u t ~t a roint o f order. ::-.. ·uc·-::.:y: --- HR. HICIO'.A.'4: ~!k. SPEAKER: ~c ::!!cord s!leaks for itself, '!r. S ?~ l:.::r. Th ~k you, !!r. Spc.o.!:cr. A point of privilege, ~~. Speaker. A point of privilege has collie up. It 1s MR. lliCICMAN: Whilst there may not have been a point of order, there waa an accusation by the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that the hon. Hinister of Recreation and Rehabilitation uttered a falsehood.

That ia totally and absolutely unparlia!llentary and I ask Your Honour to direct the bon. tha member for LaPoila (Mr. Neary) to forthwith, uequivocally retract it. I do recall hearing the hon. gentleman say that the hen. minister deceived the House, whether knowingly or not he was not aura, vhether knovingly or not. I would ask the hon. gentlecan to retract that. ~!k. NEARY: I withdraw, Hr. Speaker. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, before I was interrupted I was attempting to explain. I am aceutely aware of the situation at axon Rouse because I was Minister of Social Services in 1972.

And the hon. gentleman may not want to agree with this and if I were in his shou I would not want to either. But the fact remains, Hr. Speaker, I l:.n01o1 how Clany children were in that institution when I beca!lle llliniater and took over from the bon, gentleman. It was filled to capacit y.

.• ;:r!.!. 7, :. "7'~ :~. ::~.\?..Y: liR. ill C!tt'i : So whad It llllS not sixty-odd children 11~ should be t~ere. It uas not sixty-odd cllildren lii:.e ~te <Ire ·.:orl:ing tot:ards ri&!lt not·t, <Is a traininG i::s titution, as <1 transi<l:lt institution where c:tildrcm will co::~e in for as!leas::lent ancl . :t . ,...,,... ·-.... .J. ;:.., ... _ .,, _ On ::o::ion ::~t tile :louse res olve its.Uf int.:l Co=i:::ce oJf :~1;~ :;:tole, "!r. ~pcal:er left tl:c Chair. ·i .t

April 7, 197b Tape 722 w. 1 HR. CllAIRHAN : Order, please! HR. UICUJAN: Head 1301, page 83. 11R. CHAIRMAN: Heading 13, Touris=, page 83. Shall 1301 c~rry? The hon. Uinister of Touristl. Mr. Chairman, because of the li::~ited :lU::Iber of hours on this dapartcent 1 will not take too ouch time on tne heading of the mikister's salary because I want to &et questions fro~:~ the Opposition on the different headings,any infor=ation they want to ootain. 1 want tc say a few words though. In the IIIOVing of this portfolio 1 look forvard with great enthusiaSI'II to the what ~ call 11 resource industry for tnis I'rovince.

SO~:E tto,l. ~~t ::U t. RS: Hear, Hear~ ~lR. ~iORG.\.~: In fact I would say that tourism is going' to b~ the aright star on the horizon of the future economy ot this Provine~. SOl-i.E iiON.

Ml:lniERS: ilear, Hear~ ttR. uor.ca.1: This year 1 think it spells out the fact that we have :?25 aillion for Touri slil,<l record s pending for t his l!rovinc:e , twenty-seven per cent ~:~ore than last year and equal to the Depart=ent of Fisheries. 1 think that surely indicates the importance we streu on this new iu~ustry~~ will c~ll it. new industry for our Provinc:e.Tne in ~ustry in fact iti iiii;JOrtaut across CauadaJor exa:o~ple,last year,l!177,the value of tourili:~<~ i:1 t..ana~a was $:1 . 2 billion. -\nd t!1~ infor=tion I am passing on to t.ue Uouse is infor101ation supplieu to me from the Fe~eral Uepartment of Touris m in tne Feueral Oepart~nt of Industry Trade and Co~erce.~ hat is wqual to 5.5 per cen t of the gross natio nal product of Canada , ~ot only is it a very important revenue source for the economy but also it is a very important employer•for example,last year acrose our Country 8o0,000 jobs were provided through the industry of tourism. dear, !lear!

I·:R. ~lOR~I : That is twenty-~ne .,

April 7, l\118 HR. HORGAN: per cent more thao~l97l. I am giving these facts to indicate bow filllt growing the~ industry of tourism ill becomin~. Indeed it is becol:ling a fast ,;rowing .industry and I am quite pleased that tile Fetieral Government of Tourism, tne Federal Covernment, is reco;uizin:; 11& well t.ae fact tha.t it io~ so iwporu.nt to our Province.

I Bl:l inde\,!d honoured to wove into tne portfolio at 11 time willlll the Fedo:~:a.l ~ overn1.1e11t for the first ti= ever is recobDidn s the importance of tourism t o .:ewf oundland by means uf receutly d bnins 11 :;.lJ .u cillion abr~ement for this Province • .t.'l dO,,. ~!£.'WER: 'Iilanks to Hr. JBI:Iieson. Nr. Jm:a:ieson was involveo. and thanks indeed to ~!r. Jamieson. I have no nesitation in sayinij that. 5~1& HON. ~~ERS: HR. Cdl.l~!tu• : ~· R. ~!ORGA.l : Oil, Oh: IJ ~:der, please: I welcome - a very appropriate time to tuanlt nilia. I did not \wow he was in tne douse. ~!R.

CliAI~:A..·: 'Ibe hon. minister has done w~at I 111as going to do in a ;,ay out I am sure han. members of the Coc:mittee would like to meet and greet the Secretary of Foreign Affairs. SOHE :10.1. ~J... :·Wl:. Cli: HR. C~!AN: Hear, ilear! Hon. minister. Mr. Chairman, I can assure you in giving these compliments to the federal liliDister I was not aware he was in tne douse of A&stu:~!Jly.!lut wy words are sincere for blm.He Ls a great great Newfoundlander ~~o fi&hts bard for Newfoundland in Ottawa and we all reco!}lize that. S0!-:1:. !lo;; • HU~£RS : liear, Hear! MR. HORGM: Hr.

Chain:aan, the fact is that now that we have the support of tbe Federal Government in recognizing the unique­ ness of our Province,and I say unique because we do have unique things to offer in regards to tourisaa.~e are unique even from the rest of the Atlantic Provinces. I refer to it now as a unique corner of the North America Continent and we are using our promotion..l material along the £astern seaooard and across the country of Canad a along these linc .ll . A.i ii u.~. HU!..I.e.r.: pro .:;r=. (innml1 ule )

April 7, 19 7o Tape 72J. Dll - J MB., }IORGM: I will not, rhat is a ~ood r'minder. tuousn.

So no1o1 that we have the recosnition and support of Ottawa we look forward,! do as the new ainister,~ith great encnusiasm for this industry. ~e do aave many thinss that ;neeu ·co ne done for example and we are looking forward to 0etting t hese done by t he help of the OR£1:: agreement•For e;(a~:~;>le ,there are many attractions around our coast,around tne rural areas of the Province,many t1istoric attractions. maoy scenic attractions,~ny attractions that can De developed but have not been developeci but should ae developed • .\nd now thanks to tnis fundinG from Ottawa we have the funds to go out and develop the attractions that will draw tile tourists '

April 7, 1978, Tape 723, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: off the Trans-canada Highway, off the major network, down to the rural areas of the Province, the side roads and the byroads out to where there is something to offer tourists. Of course we all know the tremendous hositality Newfoundlanders are noted for, That is one trait in itself that is a big beneficial factor to us in promoting tourism. We can sincerely talk about the hospitality of Newfoundlanders and say it with good meaning across the country. It has been recognized and been promoted and we are going to continue to do that.

We are talking about developing, for example, things like historic villages • • We have $1.5 mi~lion to be spent this year in the community of Trinity on the Bonavista Peninsula, not in my district but nextdoor, and recognized by Ottawa, by the federal officials as a very historic background, an historic village, and there is going to be approximately $1.5 million spent in that community to develop it as such, an historic village that would draw the tourists to that area. we are talking about developing a fisheries lifestyle project whereby we will have - and the exact location has not been decided yet - but a project that will show the typical way of life of Newfoundlanders living in the outports~ like, for example, development of a fisherman's stage, and wharf, and his boat, and the boats he uses, small type boats.

Attached to that we hope to have a restaurant and some kind of an outlet selling local Newfoundland crafts and products. Also, and important, selling Newfoundland meals, selling Newfoundland food products. We have not emphasised enough the quality of our crafts and the quality of our foods we

April 7, 1978, Tape 723, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: have to offer. I am a bit disappointed to find in my travels in this Province that we cannot find enough of the actual seafood products that we can produce and promote. We should do more of that. Fortunately, under this new agreement we have funds available whereby we will be able to train the personnel involved in servicing tourists, and this will involve as well, what we will call a taste of Newfoundland. We will be emphasising development of Newfoundland meals, Newfoundland dishes and have these to eater to the tourists.

So the development of attractions and the development of accommodations, I , refer to these two points in the new agreement and under the programme coming up for the next number of years in the Department of Tourism. Accommodation is something that is lacking. We do not have enough accommodations. Across Canada, for example, we have, and these are facts supplied me by the Federal Department of Tourism - we have 80,000 businesses employed in the tourist industry, in the private sector - 43,000 restaurants, 20,000 hotels, lodges and motels across the country.

In our Province, for example, we have 50 motels listed now with the Department of Tourism, 45 hotels, 21 inns and 43 hospitality homes. over an above that a number of cabins. In the cabins sometimes we refer to what we call cabin beds, there could be two or three beds in a cabin to accommodate tourists. We have 1,100 cabin beds. So totalling up all the accommodations that we have we have approximately 6,700 spaces or bed accommodations for tourists - throughout out Province. It is a fair number but far from being adequate.

There is a definite need to improve and develop accommodations in the rural areas of the Province .t -~ J '

' ·v April 7, 1978, Tape 723, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: in particular. In the urban centres like St. John's and Corner Brook we have a fair number of accommodations but that is not where we want to get the tourists. We want to get them in the urban centres, sure we do, but we get them now without too much trouble. We want to get them in the rural areas of the Province, off the main networks. And that is what we have to do t o get them down there .

We cann o t draw them down, for example, to the Burin Peninsula or the hon. minister's area from Ottawa, we cannot draw them down there without having somewhere for them to go,number one, something to attract them , number two , and someplace to stay , number three. We have to get these things developed before we can go out in an all-out promoti on of our attracti ons and th~ uniqueness we have to offer.

There is not much point in myself going out in an all-out campaign promotion this year on tourism down in the Eastern States and down across some parts of the Western States, and even over to Europe, which we are talking about, until we get the tourism plant - I call it the tourism plant - developed. We have to get the accommodat i ons developed in these areas before we can go out in an all-out campaign to bring the tourists in . So these are the kind of things we are going to

April 7, 197fl Tape 724 EC - 1 ~. ~RGA.'f: be doing. I vill be able to answer questions on the DREE agreement and give the information in detail that I am able to give. As the hon. gentleman in the Opposition is aware, it is a joint federal/provincial programme and I do not want to play any politics vith it, to take credit for it because it is a very 1cportant progra=e, but I will be able to give certain infor'IMtion that we have agreed upon as two governments, the ~nagec:ent Comoittee, etc., that is involved in that and uhat will be taking place this coming SUllliDA!r.

Looking at tourism, of course, I think it is a good move on the part of the Premier - and he is the only one who can choose the mini s ters for these portfolios - to follow nuit with many provinces across the country where they have taken the minister from Transportation and put biro into Tourism, ~eeause transportation is synonygous with tourism.

And that has been ~one in Ontario; it has been done in tbe Western provinces, two of them; and it was done in !lev Brunswick - because transportation being so important to tourism, it is important to be aware of the problems we have in transportation and to be aware of the connections and transportation carriers, etc., to discuss with them the im?Ortanee of improve=enta and the need for improvements.

Only recently I vas indeed pleased with the tvo national carriers, one being a service transportation carrier and the other the air carrier,where they have nov been getting involved for the first time in pro~ting and developing cheaper transportation. The fact that this year the country ha~ a deficit in our travel of $1.8 billion- $875 million of that wi~~ the U.S.A., our neighbours to the South - shovs that we have to promote more travel within our O'-'n country of Canada. To do that we need the support of the industry, and the industry, the major sector, is the transportation industry.

So what we are doing as gove~ments - federal/oroviacial - is talkinR to these carriers and getting them more involved in promoting tourum, promoting travel in our 0t.1n country. Air Canada is involved in that quite heavily. but not to the extent tore would like to see them involved. ~·e vere hoping to see

April 7, 1!)78 Tape 724 rc - 2: HR. MORGAN: Air Canada get involved in what we call ABCs, which is the Advanced BookinA Charter tours,for our country. They got approval from HOT to do that across our country of Canada, but unfortunatel y they decided not to co ahe11d this year. l!owever, they h3Ve established what they call 'nighthawk service', and that 'ni ghthawk aervice' enables , for exacple, people in Oncarlo who wane co come to tlewfoundland this year to be able to travel from Toront o to St .

John's for the return fare of $139. ~o~ the 'nighthawk' is mainly, as I said, a ni~bt service, but a return fare from Central r.anada to St. John's, ~ewfoundland for $139 is a good, reasonable cost in transporcation. And that is going to obviously - What time will they be leaving - • (inaudible) HR. }'0RCA.'i : ~7ell, the time s - I a111 not sure of the details - I know one leaves very early in the morning and the other one leaves late at night . AN HOM. HEMB!R: - arrives early in the morning. I am sorry, it arrives early in the morning.

And it is basically travel at nir,ht and it is called 'ni~hthawk servic~' ~at is Air Canada. So that is a big help this year in brinAing touriata to our Province. The other one is,! ~ quite pleased with the regional carrier that we have in the Atlantic region - rPA. And £astern Provincial Air~ays has tone and tRken the lead in Advanced Booking Charter tours which hu now been given approval by HOT, and that is a 1118jor boost in rrry view for the tourism of this Province .

I t means that not only from Toronto, but now fro~ ~ontreal this comin~ summer they will be able to travel to Newfoundland - tourists and visitors - some of them being our own native Newfoundlanders working away from che Province for the last fi fteen or twenty years, some of the111, coming back home to visit, but they spend tourism dollars. AN no:1. ~!DER: Are you talking about inside Canada or out side of C3nada1

r\pril 7, 1971' MR . ~IORG~l: .\!1 RON. !T.!JIER: ~ • ~!ORCA! I: Tape 724 This is vithin Canada. (Inaudible) EC - 3 Yes, ABC, it is vithin Canada. And new this year a flight from !1ontreal this coming SUI!II'I'.er ;y EPA vill cost -a return fare - $99; and the fare St. John's/Toronto return - $149. And these are regular hours of travel, rlaytime travel. Nov these tvo transportation carriers alone, I had meetin gs vith them befo re t 'ley 41\nounced them and t.1ll:ed about the importance of getting the cost of transportation reduced .

And this is vhat I am $&ying of tha importance of the industry connected vith the tourism industry, in this case the transportation industry. And n~J I have learned as of recent weeks th.:t the '.'ia Can.1da - Via Canada, of c:our~:e, is responsible for r ail passenger service acro ss the country - they are looking at in our Province the

!!It. l:O:tG.\:1: road cruisar, bus passenger servica by Cl, a:~d they are going to get involved in packolgad tours. So it 'ce01ns that once t/e cet t~e co-ope=ation of transport~tion ~rri~rs in reducing the cost of transportation , and every~ody :~ows trans portation cos: !.s .1 =jor f ac t or ~ n :cna rds to t!li3 i::ldustry, t he toul"isc industry . ami t:1e a ::~ t: husiasc t hrou &J- so= c;;ta;;t, fro;;; t:~e trotns portati o:l :!.ndustr-J , ~~ (! can loot : f or-.:ard co ::ora co uris ts c:ocin;; into cur :>rovinca.

I hotve also been as sured in :::eeti:!.3s .... 1::!1 t!~ c c.:: ::otrine that this coJ:dng Sum:~er on the Gulf, and I would lil:e to :ention : hat t :1c Gulf feri"'J ::c r~: ic:e :!.3 one of t l';e r:.os t i::lporta:lt tril ns ;; o:t:~ :ioo:~ services i n cor.r..cction 11itil cour!.s ::1, ! ~ J.ve u~cn assu nl! '.Jy ::!- e Oporatior..s : :iln:l&er fo r tha \ tl.~n:ic reg:!.o:1 and c::: :!a=inc, :tr. Ti:lslay, t.'l:~ t t!~ cre .:ill ba at leas t f:!.ve boats Oj)crati:lg t h .U. ~=r, fiv e boats operatina across the Gulf, ~-o into ~raent1a ~::~~ t hree L~to Port aux 3asques from ~orth Sydney.

So if ~e can naintain that level of &ervicc throughcut the S~er) I ~ a bit co~cer01cd,as I centioned ye.stc r d3y, o•;cr t~e La'Jr : dor portio::~ o f o ur ~'t'~Vi;lc c ~cl I = ~; ure cy colle01gue freD Labrador will speak on this catter, from ~askaupi I area.

Yesterday an announceoent 1ras cade by ~ ~~r1ne to th• effect that I they ·.;ere t:ot sure of the c!atc t hat t he S:!.r P.o!:Jert 3om! ·1es~ ~ l C;)ul:i be =difi e:! to ;;o on that route thi s 5u=:t1cr, and it could very ·ell have I to t:l~ :e o:1e of the to.tts off t:1e Gulf. ::ov \:ith all c!ue resp ect to t he L:l~r.l dor service, 1 ·: Ul :-.ot be s:~ti:;fic c! 1-."ith ta!:i nc; :1:1y reduc tion i n t !le Gulf :;c:.-vice I thh 5=cr . Tl.e Culf s ervic e is :: ~10 :!.:::port:mt sc.=v:!.c.e oi ' 7his Provinc e. :!.:1 ; eneral and I :~greo .ll so that the Labracor service is ioportnnt.

Jut I do not \.'ant to see any reduction of tl.e level of service on the Gulf o.nd in fa~t I 11111 not tolerate it vi::hout o.any :cetings and discussions ~ r:!.th the officiotls ar.i e:.e fccerill ~ove~cnt. Dut I ac hopin : tho.t 6 0

\ , :-11 7. 11)71 a!l.d I = ho;:ing as ·.-~ll th.:t t he Si= 'tob ert ~o!'td codifications can he carried out in ti~ to cet t~at service on, but I am very doubtful in conncc tion with that.

Looldns at the ot!1e= a:; ;: ~:cts, I t~ olll.d lii.e ta i.lfor..t,i>y the -.:ay 1 t!l c :u;m •• ioJuse of .\.:; ~ e:Wly 1 .:1~t: ~ers ~u ::: 1 ~ ;;;edia :.1.1t C:.!s cuW.nc; Su:-.llaj', A?ril ~t: :: ., at ~;3'J :~ cr oss n:~t!o11al "i.': iu:::tadcaa t acro ss t~1e country, un :::te c:c n.::tt;ori. .:lt 'J . ~ :l t:;era .:1!1 ua a ;:ovi c . a p r~s•=:.=e calla.!. 'i:o ices ?'ro:~ 'i':l':l :iea, ' anJ .it is all aoout :;e...-!cur.<iland .:n~ t:hc l"Oots of ::.a :; ~· fou:1dla:oJ jl.:o.,h, 1 • .-hoara t!1cy ca:J.: fro::~, and hot; they :>ettled and wher~ t !lcy sct:l~d, etc., i~ our Province .

It is aver; i~tcrcstL~g fi~. I ·rolll.d ask you all to vie"J it ;;md ::::1yoe you can ~ive us your opinio::lS, a:~d I alii talking aoout the l:epart:ler.t of "i.o t:r is~ . rive us - I.e !..~te:td to •tSt! ::::at fill!l if ~; e f llel !!: is !lene! .i.c!al ::o .1.; , !a •:.any a1.:w.:; ~ f the State P and i:t fact 1:1Ayba. in l:urcpc .l.t a l::~t a r ~ate . it !.s a •recy bterest!ns filo so I ,.auld :1$ k you to villv t!:at file, "\'oice s Froo !'::1: 3ea," on Sunday ovenin;; at 9::JO.

P~eosnizi~~ again now that we have the gove~ents concar:111d about tourisc ::~nd promotin~ tourisc, recognizing the bj)ort:l~c~ of t :1e inc!ustry, I feel as the cinioter as well it is i!:l;>ert3nt for cc to involve industry DOre and DOrc.ar.d over t:te p:lst three veel;s I have met \litl1 t!te Hotel/Motel .Uaoeiation people throughout the ?rovir.ce, I have cet vith t he Rest::~urant :l:lu Food ~ervice!l Association people t!lrouchot:t the Province, and I !:ave t!Ct wit!. the Lou-.:c;e OW:~er l ;~.nd Opcr.:1tcrs ,\ssociation of !ie10fou.·u!l:1:1d anc!

L~~ro.t! or as 1;ell. ,Ul of these sroups are out there but they are involved it: touri:m 1 and thay a::'e directly in\•olv ed. So c y ;-ro .Eile · . .;ill ~e over the ne,.t nu:1!ler of r.onths, to \.-orl: in co-ordination wit.'t ::he industry .:1nd not go off in our 01m direction without consultation with the industry because they are the ones directly involved. Touriso, in oy view, is everybody's business acd we want everybody \.~O is involved in t!le business to uork in co-ordination.

So I ui.tl 1118.":!.!!:; an eJ:Ii>hasis over ::!:e :oe::t nu:!Ocr of \:l;!c!::: as I c.:1rrJ on 1~ ~e:::in£; the neu ;tro;:;ra= urou;;ht into ~ ffect in our !'rovi:tce.

!wpe '!o. 725 'L't. : 'O!tCAll: :low ratuer thnn carry on any further - · ~ · ..... I will uy one point,!ly the way, that it 1:1 not an il! uincl t!lilt . l blows soceone soce good. ,\nd the reduction of the Cn~dian ~ollnr, the devaluntion of the C:mndi;m dollar in oy 'liel1 is !lenefittina touris::~ !or our country. It is ~oin;; to help the Gl:'ljllHI!Ii:l •tit!lin Ca.n<~c!G., see your ot:n country anJ fortunately it i!l so in:; :::~ ':oo:~t the tourict:' in~uo:ry. It is ;;oin;; to h.:ve :10re COI!I:Ou!nn!l travel =re in thei= O'::l country r.::!ter t~an travel .1 bro~d.

I.:~J the facts and fi;:ures shcr.: ncv that Can01dbns are t!te -:osc tr:1velled ?eople in t!le •:orld. !hey travel ~very.Jhere e."':cept l'i t!lin th11ir o~o.-n Country. ::o'!o' ! !:."'ton we are ~;oi:n;: to h:~ve .,roblc~ in ~eepi:~g people b:~cl: here i.n the " interti ::'! ··!len t'tc;r caJl ~r01vel '>ou:h 3t very lo•~ tra:tSportOltion :ost:J a:td :lit :md He

April 7, 1978 Tape 726 PK - l Mr. Horgan: but in the warm seasons or in the Spring, Summer, and Fall seasons at least we get,the dollar is helping to keep Canadian in our own country. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: CBC said this ~rning - Order, please! I have to inform the bon. mini • ter his time has elapsed at this stage. MR. MORGAN: Okay, Mr. Chairman, so I \lill be l QOking forward to the views from the Opposition. MR. CHAIRMAN: The boo. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Chail'lllan, I certainly agree and I am veey much interested in the minister's enthusiasm about the tourist induatey. I would prefer, Mr.

Chairman, and I do not know if the Committee will a~ree to this, I would much prefer rather than getting into each member making twenty minute speeches, I would much prefer myself getting into the estimates item by item. Because yesterday, Sir, we put through $83 millions in the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, and vaey little information came out of that five hour period . Now that is no reflection on the minister . 1 am not blaming the minister. I am blaming, you know, ourselves .

But very littl e information came from that department, and conaequently,of course,oow we have to go and either ask the minister during the Question Period questions that we should have sought for and obtained during hiJ piloting of the estimates through the House of Assembly. SO~!E RON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! CAPT. E. WINSOR: And this is what I w ould hope that we can do with Tourism, and perhaps other departments as well. Having said that, Mr.

Chairman, if I were a member of the present administration , and the Premier o f that administration had appointed me to the Portfolio of Tourism 1I certainly would not take that appointment as anything less than any other department of government - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! CAPT. E. WINSOR: - at this particular time . 1 certainly would not belittle that appointment. Because, Sir, t feel as Minister of

April 7, 1978 Tape 726 PK ~ 2 Capt. E. Winsor: Touri~ I would be given one of the greatest challenges of this Province today, and certainly a challenge whereby one would have the opportunity to promote and develop the tourist industry which in fact I suppose should be among the top in money and in jobs , among the top contributors to the economy of this Province toda y. But it would have to be developed .

And as the minister said there are so many problems, so many,many problems which we have to deal with, so many programmes which have to be developed because the t ourists, let us face it, they are not just coming to Newfoundland to sit around and drive over gravel roads, driving all day with very limited accommodation, and as the minister pointed out they come to Newfoundland for the uniqueness of what we have to offer in Newfoundland, and it is unlimited. They will not come, Mr.

Chairman, the tourists will not come to Newfoundland because we take ' it for granted we have an unlimited natural resource, an attraction. So that attract i on must be developed to the point where we are going to encourage tourism to come. Now there is one point I would like to make whieh I have not been able to pinpoint any heading in the estimates for, and that is attractions. It is a known fact that the greatest attraction now in the Terra Nova Park is that tour on the old I.ipawo • That seeiiS to be attracting - HR. NEARY: Is she still afloat? CAPT. E. WINSOR: She is still afloat and doing good.

That tour on that boat and apparently is attracting more visitors who are visiting the park, and this is the sort of thing and we need an awful lot more of that t ype of boat. At the National Park I would say there is room perhaps for another boat, and there is need for,or at least the need could be there, if properly organize~ .

.\pril 7,1970 iJi-1 CAPT. HI.::SO::t: 01nd one for Port !ll:l."ldford, t llc C1.uenv.Llle ar<la, up ti1ere in the .iorthwest arm.·- :IR.w1UTE: Notre D=e Say. CAPT. WINSOR: I ac cOQiug to - Levisportc, Bay of Exploits, Botwood and there are nu::~erous places \/here if you n01d what you vould tom as a cruise boo:~t or tour boat, I suppose, to ca:;e pnsscn,:;ers or take tourists around the ~.:~ys.the sccner1 around ~y of our bays, .u:. Cho:.i=, is just •.mbelievable.

Tourists ~ho are driviag all .i.ly c.o not ~ant to sit .:.rounJ .w.nJ ,.'lltc:1 tne sunset and a fo?.w a loo.- at tne few bears that coce out there, etc. etc. j)erhaps t:tcy l.lill ~ee a few moose. There is roo~ for a nucbar of thoao suall tour boats all around our Province. The beautiful U~~~:~ber .\m, t he ilon;ttJ !lay area. Jut, !lr. Chairt:.3n, the cost involved =kes it alcost pro.til..itive . I lulve discussed this aateer vit!l the :liui:;ter of Fina.,cc.

To ~et a boat or ;;et a nuabo?.r of boats ~ould cost a tr~eado~ acount of ~oney 1 becausc if you set the typo of ~oat, 100 foot boat 10ith the proper accocod4tion, not overnight ac:comoclation but juat seating acCOIIIOdation - wa all have seen tli.Cl:l with a Plcxigla~ side where you can sit in tho boat coafortallle and just glo1nco out the sicie of t!le boat or the. glass windo\JG and observe - AN OON ~IE!iBER: Uow about one' like- Clll'T. \."l!ISOR: !lo,she is no ., Jod -and observe the scenery. Dut, :k.

Speaker, I .ould suggest t . 1t perhapa the Minister of I Trans~ortation would probably consider the fact of &ivins a low intcre5t loan to any procoter who Lli&ht want to go into that business. Tuere arc a lot of the::~. At least tnree people have centioncci the I fact to ;;u1 within the last cont !l. This is the sort of thing they I have in mind since the federal 3over=ent is now making a ;;reat contribution of $13 million to the tourist industry. People are beginning to come alive and they say, 11\11\.at can I get into to promote the industry"

Apdl 7,11173 Ta;Je. .:o. 727 : .. H-2 C\PT , ll!3SOR: Ol<ad of cours e cake a Qollar. r.u.n t hcre is anotaer stugbling block in that, :~. C~irgan .As ~e know and ~s we have seen by the contracts that have gone out for the construction of longlinera, It is unbelievable what one of those sQall liners would cost to build today- not equip,but to build. n1e contracts which have ;one out to our shipyards, one quarter of a Qillion for a fifty-eiiht or sixty foot hoat- and higher. This is a pretty hi;h cost and by the til:le you &et the u:acilinery instollled in that boat it is a pretty costly boat.

T:us is the sa::e tiU.n; as ~o"ith tac othar boats, vith the CSI rc&ulations saippinb is very, very costly today.~d I would ask the ~anistcr of Finance to think very seriously about abolishing that old reference or the act, that part of the clause of the act of the SSA tax wilich applies to those Slil:lll boiltS.

Because if a person is going to have to spend - a:td :~:any of those i:toats cannot be built in Newfoundland. r:1ci' ~r~ • either built of fi~reglass or aluninum ilnd they arc ve ry cootly and they cannot be constructed in this Province :he type of bo•U; that I have in mind and I thin!;. the type of boat which would oe cost suitable for those tourists. I would ask the minister ta~ ~ery seriously the fact ofrepealin~ th4t part of the sales tax relating to small boats. ~.!R. HIC".-:·IAN: 300 tons &Qd under. CAPT. WINSOR: 300 tons and under. As the act applies now all fi5ning vessels are ex~pt from that tax.

But a coaster or a ferry or a tug or those tour boats til3t I have in mind, they are all eligibl~ if t:tey a re not over JOO tons. nut John Jones can ;,ring in a boat 290 tor.s and have to pay the SSA tax but if Bill llrol.ltl ~rin s s !n o~e just 300 tons he is ~~pt. Tllis is a very unfilir and discriginatory ~ct and I sincerely hope thilt the Qini s ter ~111 - if we are goin& to procotc the tourist industry let us go all the way and let us provide the ottractioc. One of the attraetions will be a tour around the beautiful bays that we have and inlets. Now we can go to Labr01dor, and 1 aa sure the bon. gecber

.'.pril 7, 197 6 - ! C/.P!AI !I "'C!S'lR: for !las kaupi (::r. Gou:!ic) uUl a&ree. you see L.o.brador at all until you ~o :rort~ of Goose !'111.y.

The ~e~t sc~nerJ in L3~r.o.dor is ~o!n; U? t~rouah t~e fiores there, a:1d up in \'o!.sey !lay, and it is brcnth-tlll:i:l:;, you l·noH,what ·~e =~~ do to nt:r~ct touri~t3. ~ut of course we r. a~e to :et c;c tourists i:l chore, ~his is ::he pro!:lle!:!. '!'h!.s is t!:.c .,roble::~. .\:t:l I •:oul c! :a!'o::lc;ly ur .. -: t"tc :•L'liste:: of Fi~cnce, :1.:1:! the ::1n1s::cr of !ouri:J :::. if ':c ! a ;;o:!.;,;; t o .;o :111 out tJ Jc·:'!lop t'1e tourist !nc!us::-y as i: ~ho.!l~ he, =:.-.n t'~ osc ~r!! the thin;:s :tc ':.o.s to be:tr in ~ind, -\cco=d:lt!::ms t•e all 1~:-~~ ~. •·e '1::.ve all experienced the tY?e of :1cco~odntion, aside fro:::. the Trans-canada 'Hc"rr.o.y it is li:-ited. ,\_-::! our se11 food3, it !11 :!lco:;t ur.o l-.t~in.'!b l(l outs!"e ,f ='l.: '-:1:; "totels . ~.nt! t t is alw.ost too c::pensivc t !:.e u to ';,u'f.

So, ::r. ::: • .o.ir;::.:1:1, ! : • .:1vc not c;;?ired t '•e t;:ecty W.nuta a but if I carrJ ~ n fer t ::enty minutes : :1en that is proba~ly ~oins to encoura~e everyone else eo do so. And I Yould li:•e to &Ct into t: :~ •11i.lC:lni:S t.lllere ·;e C:llU de.o.l ·.-1 th e&c!l heading !;y cioi:::; it~ uy itec. .\n'" of c:ouru it givas the ~ers on the opposite aide a chance, I see the cember for Bouavbta rlorth (::r. G.

Cross) t!1era, no,. i1e :.as a prcbleo do~m t!:e::c. ;tc h~ cne of t:1e :1ice s t attr:~ct!ous i n :;onav~t.:l . :ort~, j·ou k:10t:, Creenapond, for instance. i'corlc t:cul U !ll.c to co ou: to Crecnst:ond, !:ut :!.e - f:ol~ ~On(l.v!~:a ~i .o.rea, :c:1.::.vista ::orth, t>:c Lao., :.oad, .ln'" the G.::uc!cr :la;;. l ::!1.!.kl·. :.£1 ).:I:< :~n:l'·~ . ..:l:'.j' , =r.y i'COFle lo,.O 1:oul:! li:.J til t ol::c a t our t u: - w::.r:; ":r::so:t. Grccnapond is b tha t fil::~ iq c : 11~ ·•ay . Cnfortur.accly 1i they ?Ut t:101t fert'j' i:: t ho t fil::1 ti1at vil l d111:1peu - !~. !!ORG.\!1. ::o. ~! o.

·'. - ~ c.\l'T,U:T •a::SOR: :lell I !tope :1ot because here is another case, !!r. Chairmn, llberc we have a ferry that ia not adequ;u:e for t:1e job. Jut tae previou~ o~erctora, ~eot~ic Fish~ries, could not obt~in suff!c!ect subsid7 to ~e able to icprove on that Joat. • :P.. ::O:tG.\!1: ::auld you yield for a qu!!stion7 I yield for .:1. ques:!cn froo t !:e ::on. ::.i~ ister .

Tal!:i:t;; about Cree:lspond, on :-.y visit to Gr:::m:;ponJ la::t :;ear I put for.:ard t::e S.:l::ll! th:!.ng to t!.e:=; ..lo i'C U :;1in!~ t!tat if n cause~o;ay ·.·ns built : o : :1.1t i:;llln<.l co=:~ity, .:; ::cauti ! \.:1 co::::mity, it ;.·oul.! tlll;c! 01way free the uniquer.ess it ::o~r !;:15 - if we built a causeo:~ay, replaced the fer~· - or would you t!linl~ rather a ferry to continue on back and forth to ~ervice the islan:rl c.".!r.u:: ·rr:st':t. Well, you .:~rc t! .. i:ll:.in::; of a cnuse•.:ay fr:l ::l S!1il::l!llers ':.o ~e ::crou to Crc~t.sponc.

Well, the people of Greenspond one time came cu: •.:i t:: .;u~s :o fire <1t us. The Grecnspo:m:l 41c!.l m 10as fro: e:-: over, and t!l.:1t vas the oea.ns c£ thl! Greens pond people get tins firc-..rood fro :J the }!air.l.:~n:! and ve "Jent :lo1o-n thro~Gh there in our beat, in the Spring, 4S a catter of fact we 11ere tal;ing the sealers back hooe, and ·.-e broke t!le Ctannel, 110 uent down thro!.!;h and \·1e brol~e their :liglmay :md t!1ey t:cre not ·:c.::· :;ell pleased :!.t th at particular t:i:Jc. t:1ey t!1:-e.:~te::cd us.

But ~t vas late ia the Spring and t felt that they had =st of their fire11ood out ll.tlj'lo'lly. !lut cetting back to the eause~ray, you ha·•c. to ; ei;c1 t!te :;;:o.

You l;nc·.Jt any place, and this applies to Fe:::> Island , any place ~o·here you can dr!vc. wit~ou ~ havin::; to ;o on a ~oat is ::Iuch 1:0re !Jetter than !Jein:; transported by !.oat unless you You !:now, t !1e distance is sufficient to '!:Je :~bl~ to ! ~.:~.ve <l.'l hour cr t"..ro of rcla;:..ticn. 7hc run fror.: Cree:1sponci to \'all~yficl<! is cnly ttren:y cinu~es or so !Jut ~ere is \.'here :.:e !.ave - if you had a j?roper ferry there, the cause-Jay is soin& to cost a let cf coney but ir. the ce.antioe it is goin& to take ::evcrnl yc.us to provide that causeuay.

C.\PTAn{ lo.'l~ISOR: Jut 1 ~M 3urc, ~n~ I ~n sure ~'e ne~er for llonavista !lorth (Hr. C. Cross) Yill llllrcc, there are COC?nnics ~.-ho are concerned and &!".:do us :o jltovide a boat for that service 1 but they c:.lnnot do it 'lith the jlr eth:nt suboi dy, Nor •.·ill t! ~ c7 !>e .1blc tn ~Q t one in :~c ·~ f o ~c!l ;mc! . '!'hey nrc &oin :; to .,a.,e to l:>uild 3

April 7, 1978, Tape 729, Page 1 -- apb CAPT. WINSOR: Th~t ferry only takes passengers it does not take cars. I do not know if there is a road on Greenspond Island to drive a car on anyway, but nevertheless, that is a sid~ attraction. Mr. Chairman, I will take my seat. I have probably gone just about my time anyway. MR . NOLAN: CAPT. WINSOR: MR. WHITE: MR. CHAIRMAN: You have. I am sorry about that. Mr. Chairman. I thought the hon. member for Fogo was finished and I did recognize the hon. member for Port au Port. I will recognize the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to make a few short comments. I will be very quick. I realize that the member for Lewisport has to catch a plane. I wanted to ask a few questions of the minister about the DREE agreement which was signed with the Province. Now I understand there is an aspect I to that agr 1 ~ement which c9!lcerns the whole Province, such as food ser tices and hospitality services. I also understand 7hat there are some areas which have been sort of specified as areas which are to get special treatment; I believe they are the Northern Peninsula, the Bonavista Peninsul~ and the Burin Peninsula.

I am also aware that there is a planning committee and some changes might be made on that. But I wanted to talk a few minutes about the Bay St. George area of the Province . The unemployment in that particular area as we all know is very high at the present time, and that is no reason to bring in t ourists but it is a reason to look at that area to see what can be

April 7, 1978, Tape 729, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: unemployment problem. done to combat this Now one of the advantages for Bay St. George to be looked at as a tourist development area is that for one thing it is at the gateway to Newfoundland. If we look at the whole area there is Sandy Point. The Sandy Point Heritage Committee has submitted some very good recommendations to make Sandy Point a heritage village. Now I do not want to get into saying Sandy Point should be heritage village rather than Trinity or anything like that, but it is one of the oldest communities on the Island.

It was the main community on the West coast a hundred years ago, it has a tremendous history, it has many of the artifacts and buildings and things of that nature still left there. It is a most interesting place which I am sure the minister is aware of, and so was the former minister. I feel that that area should be looked at in terms of development. As well, Stephenville, the central part of that particular area, has tremendous accommodations and there is one particular building there,once belonged to Javelin, which is well suited to turning into a convention centre or a hotel. There are hotels in the area.

The Port au Port area is one of the most scenic areas of this Province. I might point out something about the Port au Port area; the Quebec government has placed Port au Port on their tourist brochures and this year will be promoting trips to Port au Port, and that is because it is the only remaining area in the Province which is French. There is an area there, Red Island, which the French once owned and was a major fishing station. The area certainly has great tourist potential and I think this potential of Quebec

April 7, 1978, Tape 729, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: people coming to Port au Port is one that we can well play upon because interest is being shown more and more all the time. Their French Association is there, they have advisors who come down from Quebec occassionally, and they have shown that they are very interested in this area. I think we can get an awful lot of dollars from Quebec, from people coming down to visit the true French areas of Newfoundland. MR. HICKMAN: You see a lot of strange plates on the cars but you never see them from Quebec on the Burin Peninsula. MR. HODDER: down our way. ' MR.

WHITE: No7 Well, they are coming They go through St. Lawrence. MR. HICKMAN: No, you see them from Ontario and Manitoba and British Columbia and Nova Scotia all going down to the Burin Peninsula, but I guess it is because they _do not like the terrperate attitude that is so prevalent in Grand Bank and Fortune. But whatever the reason is, they do not seem to do it. MR. DOODY: Count your blessings. MR. HODDER: I believe one of the universities in Quebec has a French Summer School - MR. HICKMAN: MR. HODDER: is right. The University of Toronto. The University of Toronto, that Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to say a couple of other things quickly. One is that I believe the minister is responsible for the caribou herd on the Port au Port Peninsula. I want to raise that question.

April 7, 1978 Tape 730 PK- 1 Hr. Hodder : The herd is down to thirty-four animals at the present tille. The people of the area are very, very concerned about it. Nov last year I raised this question in the House with the former Minister of Tourisa,qe said at that time if the people did not want the caribou then let them go. Well if we took that attitude about all of the game in this Province we would not have any regulation whatsoever.

That herd,as I said,is of great concern to the people of the area, and I have had volunteers co=e to me to say,Look we will police that herd if we can get a bit of money for gas, you know, ~50 or something so that we can be paid for our expenses just to police that herd. I would like to talk to the minister about that at another time becauae if they belong to the Militia, the ~anger Force of the Canadian Malitia, two fellows came to me with that proposal. I am getting an awful lot of flak on it. I fear that the herd may be wiped out. And, Mr.

Chairman, it is not the people of the area who are killing those animals,it is one of two, It is the sama thing as if - you know, the onlv surveillance out there is helicopter surveillance. There is no way really for anybody to police the herd unless residents of the area do it, and there are people who are very concerned, and I stress again that they are willing to take upon themselves, and they are very responsible individuals. ~. HORGAN: You say the herd is down to thirty-four.? MR. RODDER: It is either thirty-four or thirt y-seven left the last word I heard. And the last point I want to make, Mr.

Chairman, vas that just talking about the private parks throughout this Province, I think that we should be trying to develop those private parks and at the present time they are in competition with the provincial parks. And one of the regulations that governs the private parks is that they cannot put signs along the road letting - nov maybe this is changed,! do not know, but it was not last year - they cannot put signa along the road to warn people that there is a private park coming up, and there are so many units, and whatever. These are businesses. There are several in Western Newfoundland.

And the only sign they can put up is right immediately in front of the area.

April 7, 1978 Tape 730 PK. - 2 Mr . Hodder: When you travel the Mainland you can s ee signs all the way along, you know, vith ten ailes to such and such a park, hook-ups, water and all that sort of thing. We do not have that in this Province, and I think that a lot of people are missing the boat. A lot of these owners are missing tourists. And I think that we should change this rule even though I know it means that we are cluttering up the Trans-Canada Highway. That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman . AN HON. MDmER: Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please!

I will recognize the bon. member for Lewisporte,But before I do I would ask the Committee do not blame me later on for setting a precedent, but I understand the bon. member has to catch a flight . The hon.member for Lewisporte . ' MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, I do have to catch a flight , and I do have a couple of things to say, and one of the things that 1 want to mention right off the start, if the minister takes action on this will probably do more for tourism in Newfoundland this Summer than any~ thing else I can think of. During the past eight months, Mr.

Chairman, I have had the opportunity of driving to the Mainland and driving back from the Mainland on tw.o occasions, and the most r ecent occasion was during the Easter break . I drove up to Montreal and back down again. Now 1 want to tell the mini ster that from Montral to Port aux Basques there is only one sign all along the Trans-Canada Highway indicating there is a ferry to take you to Newfoundland, and that one sign is twelve miles from North Sydney. That is the only sign on the entire Trans-Canada Highway right acro ss this Country as far sa Toronto that indicates there is a ferry to Newfoundland.

Now you will notice if you are coming out of Montreal on the auto route. the 20 East Road, that as soon as you get into New Brunswick there is a huge sign over the highway that says, PEl ferry so many miles, and then you go down another fifty or sixty miles and you will see anoth er big sign right across the highway, PEl ferry so many more miles, and the same going up. Now ther e is no sign anywhare to indicate that there is a ferry going to Newfoundland,

April 7, 1978 Tape 730 PK - 3 Mr. White: nothinR whatsoever, Mr. Chairman, except one small sign on the side of the road that says Newfoundland ferry twelve miles, and that is the only thing there. I would say to the minister to get together with his colleagues in New Brunswick, Quebec and Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island and get some signs up,equal to those that PEI have up on the highways across the country, indicating that there i s a ferry coming to Newfoundland. I wanted to mention that, Mr.

Chairman, because it has concerned me very, very much every time I have gone to the Mainland by car, ~nd I am sure there are people who drive down through the Maritimes that if they were reminded that Newfoundland is over there , the ferry is so many miles away,that I am sure they would try to get on it.

April 7, 1978 Tape 731 rc • 1 l-'R. WRITE: Mr. Chairman, the visual aspect of advertising and of the t~edia is very important today, probably the =est important thing we have going for us in the world in terms of the electronic media and also in te~ of the print oedia - the visual aspects of advertising. That is vhy I relate this to signs. And the saoe thing applies to sians in this Province. I think the government's policy with respect to siRns along the Trans-Canada Highway is a total aish-mash. It is a hogwash policy in r:sy opinion, Hr.

Chairman. ~lo signs are permitted up along the Trans-canada llighway - you drive from Port aux Basques to Central ~ewfoundland or right to St. John's and there are no signs telling you where you can go to find ~evfoundland hospitality; there are • no si(tns to tell you vhere you can go to see t:cufou:tdland :ourist attractions : there are no signs indicating that there are motels or hotels anywhere off the Trans-canada Highway, and consequently, in tlevfoundland you have a predominantly Trans-canada Highway tourist.

That is about the only thing you have, a Trans-Canada Hi~hway. tourist, because he does not know that within a few miles of the Trans-canada Highway is some of the most beautiful scenery in this Province and some of the nicest communities and villages that they could be visiting. And this is something that 1 think the government should change. Nova Scotia, Prince !d~ard Island and !le~ Brunswick have no such pol~cy.

All down through the "ad titles there are si~s indicating this and signs indicating that, but in ~lewfoundland, absolutely nothing , and if somebody puts a sign up that you can see from the Trans-canada llighuay, instantly there is socebody in to tear it do~~. I had the occasion once to be with the lliniste.r of Tourism, the present minister, in a car. and ve vere driving along the highvay dow in my own district. And there is a guy down there who has a poodle kennel . I am only bring this point up - it has nothing to do vith tourism - but he has a poodle kennel and he

April 7, 1978 Tape 731 tc - 2 MR. WHITE: has a little sign out on the road which says, you know, it is a poodle kennel and come on in. And the lllinister then who was the Minister of Transportation and Co11111lunicationa. said to the official that was with him, ' We have to get that sign down out of it,' ~ow I think that is the totally wrong attitude to have with respect to signs along the Trans-cannda nip:hway.

Everywhere you go in every state in the United States \:ha re tourism is really being promoted,and every province in Canada where tourism is being promoted, there are a lot of signs alonR the highway indicating - now I am not saying that anybody can just paint an old sign and stick it up on the highway.

I would say there should be regulations with respect to the kinds o~ signs that can be put up, but 1 do not think it should be restricted onl')' to governs:ant signs. which is essentially the policy today, that no signs can be put up on the t rans- Canada Highway other than those that are put up by the government itself or by the Department of T. and c. So, Hr. Speaker, 1 would urge the minister to do something about that, because it is a very, very important matter. l also want to mention briefly the advertising policy of the government. l think it is antiquated, I think it is 1950s and not 1970s - 1980s style.

Mr. Chairman, we can regain unique in this Province, we can maintain our heritage in this Province, but that does not mean that 11e cannot adopt the American way of doing thing s in terms of promoti on and adverti,in R. I do not see 4ny ads - lots of them in ma2azine s (inau~ ible), ~IR. !-IlliTE : Yes. I do not see any ads, ~r.Chairman, on the national CTV network advertising ~tewfoundland; I do not see any ads on the national CBC network advertising Newfoundland, I think that would be a first step.

The mdnister has $1 million to work with in terms of advertising - $1 million in this Budget for adverti sing in variou' places - and I 1:oulri say to him that he sho 1.1l d try to devel op a !!lic k

April 7 I 1978 Tape 731 HR. l."BITE: American advertising kind of approach and not the kind of dull approach that we have seen in recent years with respect to advertising in this Province. We shoul<! have a slick approach, :·lr. Chair1:18n, 1rl th respect to advertising, because ve can maintain our uniqueness, as I said, and at the S811M! time adopt the A~:~eric:an way of doing things in terms of advertising. EC - 3 There is only one other thing 1 want to mention. I want t~e minister to nake sure that he does maintain an emphasis with respect to the t!orthern ferry service. Nov, ~r.

Chair=an, let me give you one example of the kinds of things that Americans find when they come to Newfoundland and try to see so~e of the things they want to see. 1 got off a fli~ht in r.ander one time last July and 1 did not have a ride to Levisporte. Usually 1 just go out and I catch a ride going out with somebody to Grand Falla and 1 did not have a ride to Lewi&lJOrte.

So I went over to th• EPA counter and I said, 'Anybody around going to Lewiaporte?' And when I said that, there were two people who were sitting down on one of the chairs and when they beard the word 'Le~~sporte' this gentlellllln jumped up and cue over and he introduced hiiiSelf. Re vas a Doctor fro11 Rat'Vllrd Cnivenity in Boat011, and with hill vas his girlfriend, who is a phychologist at the same university,

April 7, 1978 Tape 732 0~ • 1 MR. F. WHl'IE; and they wanted to get to ~~ain, Lab-rador, They could not find in I:oston and the Easteru seaboard the route th.e tt. ey took up to •>ewfoundland. Jh•Y could not find anything tnat showed them how to get to Lau-rador 1 not a ainglu thinG. rhey had ono1 little piece of tlaterial that they had tai;.en out of so~::e encyclo- pedia with a:1 Inuit photo~;raph in it ana ::i1at was tne only thing to indicate Labradot'Jut l.lecause tnis iJ.uticular gentle:naJ . was i:1te-rested in ant•lrOiJOlo&y and other things h~ wanted to visit i.ain.

So ile Cllllle out to Lewisporte wit h ~::e,they stayed at r:ry house for three or four days because U1e fert'Y was late,and finally-it was just after the ~ sunk so they could not set down-we made arrangements for them to go up on one of the smaller vessels up to Goose Bay ;md I e;ave them a letter of introduction to the member for Eagle River who was living in :;.11."1 ;md ~nay vent up there. ~ow since t hat I nave had numerous letters from this particular individual in aoston.Hewas delighted with the trip.

The)' are coming back again this swm:~er and they are &oing to bring a whole crew with them,a whole whack of guys with theg, .They are going to come up and they are going to spend about a !!!on th in Newfoundland this year only beceus(. I toot scce interest in the individual,showed him what he was in for llecauae by the time he got to Gander Airport and did not even ~ow how to set to Lewis­ pot'te he was lost and they were thinking 01oout turning back and going somewhere else to spend their vacation . So I would say to the minister that it ill very important to ke~f' nn eye on this .llorthern Ferry Service.

In is one of the major things that can nttnct tourists to tilh Pt'ovince. Labrador ill talked about in tourist circlo!S around the Uniteu States ~re ~o than N£wfoundland.~abrador is talked about uecause a lot of new publications are coming out on Labrador,a let of university publications are coming out of Labrador,there are a lot of anthropology studies that are being done on Labrador and generally throughout the 1lorth American Continent Labrador is being elilphasized. And I would say that tnis :'iorthern ferry Set'Vice can be of oojor i~::~ortance to the tour is t

April 7, 1978 TApe 7Jl D\1 - 2 HR. F, WI:III.Ii.: !.ndustry in this Provinc:e.I know it is also important in terms of the food atuffs going up to Labrador ana etc. but in terms of the tourist potential - A."l llON. HhliBER: MR. F. w1lli£: People in Labrador travel. l es.~e for people in Labrador travel. I reali~e that . out •~ are talking a bout tourism now and 1 just ~:ant to e..:phasiz~ t hat t hat i s ve ry imjlortant in terms o f touris~:~. ;md l'ilile I am on that subject, Mr.

Chair=n, I i1lll sure the minister-! do not know if he nas lo~keci into a p roposal that has come from my district yet witn respect to trips up to Labrador.! clo not ~;ant to mention too much about that but I want to emphasi:e that 1 hope tne e~inister does loo k s eriously at that particular p roposal that has been 1:1ade to him fo r JI OIDC tourist activit y along the coast of Labrador. And one other thin ~; t :utt I want to mention, br. Chairman.

Tne lO!inister last year when he was the !-linister of Transportation and Communications aade a commitment to me in the House during his estimates that he was going to put a sign on the Trans-Canada liighway,both sides of Notre l>ame Junction ,indicating that the ;;ortuern Ferry Service did in fact s o tiUt of Lewi s.porte 1and to t ltis day the signs have never been posted and 1 would say to the minister that it is very important for the signs to be posted as quickly as possible.we hnve nad cars come into l.ewisporte,transport trucks co111e into Lewisporte after passing by the Juoction, going on into Gander and finally gettin g into llander and realizing tney had pa;;se d uy the Junctiot .turn off t o co= out to LeYisporte.

It happenll all t •lr: time. There arr a~out 15v tra;'liipo r ts tuat cowe into Lcwisporte .!Ve ryday and half t he tWil if it is the ir fir s t trip clo;;il tillly pass by and they mif; j; out on it. !'ho s e are t he f ew p oint s I •·anted to u:ention, ~lr. Chaiman. hll.. CHAIR.'IM: llR. G. CROSS : TI1e bon. minbter for Bonavista l'iorth. Hr. Chair111an, as I rise to speak let we fiut Coilgratulate the hen. 111ecber for Let1i spo rte f or certainly the in.portant and interesting facts t iaat he p11t f orth .

I = s ure ~o· n en t he a..iniiiter rciJlies that will bu nis j ou • .uut as l ris e to spen:- t oday i n tn<.£ debate un tne estimates fo r t11e Depart cent o f 1our isc 1

April 7, 1976 ·rape 732 ow - 3 hR. G. CROSS: certalnly I have no intention of beina negative,no intention of lookinb too far bac~ in the paat,no intention of issuing statements of ridicule and blame.but for a mo~nt or two I would li~e co return as lov as in aistcry ~s 1975, till~ year that 1 became - Hl\. P. C.\.'iNLlG: (Inaudible) ~.R. G. CROSS: (Innudiole) !·!R. CH.\IIU.&,: Order, please! ~:R. G. CROSS: Oh, you want Cle to turn on the volw:~e then, the hen. ul!lber for Burin - Placentia west, 'lea . As l stated as I riae to speak, I have no intention of ~eing nesative, -

'.;--u 7, 1"78 ~:R. Cr.!:>SS: :'IO i:'ltention of 1oo':in& to t! e fl:ls:, ro!: t oo far back in t~e p~st, no intentions of issuing stnte=ent• of ridicule or bl~e, but I would like to look back ~s far as 1~75; th:lt 'l;ns tl~ ll yo.lr t !:at I sot !nvol'ICd .lnc cy !h·ct ;car in the .:oWlc of :.ss:l::.:.,ly. . .. .,:! i! ;o l oo!; :It t!1e .!ollnr .:; l i'e:tt i:l to~ r!c.:1 :~.:.:tee 1~ 75 t .• ~ is ce:-t ~i:aj ·•:ta: :.:c !l .:!~ : i:l 1::'75 ::..\3 <lol::.urs to t !.u :1earcs t ;Ullic :l:: ::~ ~t .. o.s ;:,. ll ocat ~ ..: :o ::11!

J.; ,or:::::.on .. of !~u:-iJ;:; ·a.:; ~13 u.!.ll !.:~ :t. !:t 1')75 t!\e incr :l.::~ a :a1 :.y $3 :.Uli:: 1, tc ~lG :..illion, :!.:t 1::'77 t !:e ol t.:)U~ t re::a! r.-: st:~ L lc to ~16 ~ll!on :~nJ t~is yCJr i~ 197e, ce rtai~7 i:t l!steni:l;; to t!lc ::l!>li:ltcr :.Cl see t!:.:~t t ~e =u."1t !'1.:13 :;o:1c to $25 :lillion . So if ·.·a look :It tha total for '75, '76, '77, ._.c s ec :!\at o toto! of $45 ::1Ulion ·:OlS spe:tt.

I:t t :li:; pr cs ~"l t j colr, ~ 2;: clll !o:t in cno y001r. ;:o I t :lir.!: :~11 i:o:t. :::az:~bc rs 'l.•lll :~;;.::- cc ui:::1 ::c : ! . .:lt it is .:! su;; cc~r:ti:ll bcr.;-.s a . .\nd : con o:~ ly stres G t::c fact 't hat I: ::1.."1 sl:~cl to sec t!1!s ·,:~ r- ;: anin& !Jec;ouse ! <!o, 11:~c ;::..lt:y ::JEU:,cn w:1o :~ave spo!tcn bc fo:e, :1nd caybe lik" ::111 of us, ! h:l\'e a baliaf that our rccources must be developad nnd certainly I hnve .:1 ~elief tr.at our tourist ?Otcntial is ::1 ~re3t asset to us .:1nd cer tai•u:r lt is B wi ~ c ::10ve to put ~ re c!ollarc into touris t:t r e&:lrdless of tf.;.era tile dollars coc c froc .

I ::~ay s:1y sooetiues I: foel that when we tall . !I f Joll:1rs ue ing spent 1'C StreSS the point, 'I:!\CI\ ' IC hear Of dollers co ::-.i:~ s £r oo Otta'.r.:l,\:e 3ay in our :lttitudes, I th!;l! :, th.:~t ... by. I t !linl: •·c ': :~ va to recc cll ar th.:tt th~: c!oll.u ~ ··c set I t hi n!.: •. c d cs c n·e , :~ r.d th e :!oll :~r ll .. c :;et '-'C =l:e a cor.t::ib ation to cc.,•u !a in order to ge t t.1a i 1 .... f' the r it is in !1:!.stor ;;, culture o: ~<'let!l er it is in pl.3in dol lars ~ n d conts . Cort:linly ue have :::uc:.'l t o offer in ~! c\:foundland.

Thera i s muc:!1 to l:e offered to the tourists in the district that I rcpres c~t, t!le district of Sonavistn North . And certainly throu6~ tne years, the pas: three years , •Jit~ the great i~Fro veoent in :r;:~ ::~;:o :::-t .:l ti o :l t!1at is cr-.:~ir.& .:1!:out due t o ;::r1ed roa d&, I : ~ i n!~ ~·hat " e !Ia'.';! t:l of !e;r ·ill " "lO t'.:! 1cc ess!':!l ;: t:: t!.t! j:coplc of : !1e c!i :;; tr ic:t

7:.;;e. :o. 73 J : ~ .. C~IJSS : 4nd ~~erefore ve hove to advertis e ourselves. Certainly Ye have so~ of the bc3t trout s tr~ ~nd sal=on rivers to be found nnyv!lere in ~:evfoundland. Cartainly •r.: do 'la·: e bi3 ;a::e, noo:le. " c !t;sve the s=ll :: ~ ce . birc!s of differ ent J t~ c c:i cs !lnd ra'!lbits. And c:e rtai."ll:,· I !)~ l icve t'lat we have to be care !u! .

I believil :'I at ._..e have =o !lave l :m:1 .1nc! r a::: ul~t io ns : o ; r otcc:= our •,•ildlife to ensure t i1at t her e ill s:o:::cthin;; l e ft for futUril zcr.er .:~ t !ons . !t i S VC~J !~po rt ant. ~.n:! ec r~ :..:.!l!y l a••g t ~l :lt .:~r.:~ ::1.:1clc and t !1at :zre not '<opt are usel ess . It i s the ln•.-s that arc enforced t '!lat o:.lkes t he diff cr:.n ce.

I :~ ~·•e n feelins and I be lieve tl:nt t !u:re is a need for core ~zildlife offic ers co :tee that ~o-ilcli fe re!;Ulotions are ad!tered ::o a:td enfo rced . ! t !l!.,l; ::.t t he =o::1e:1t t!t e fa cts 11t:1tc t':at •:o ~.lV e thirty - nino '1ilclli! e offi cer s i =: t !-.is Pr ovi:\cc . 'l ilcl!fc di :: : ric: :; a re : oo L1r :;e. I n t~il district o ! !!on:1•.r! s t:. 'lor t '1 r ~.: ll ~· t !1erc is one ~~o o .,arhaps uc :~r e a tinj' bit be tter off than !lOtiO ot her areas. A!l UON. !!E!l!EP.: :!!'. CP.oss: H~ cany in 3onavista ~orthl ~e for big 3a~e re;ulations nnd s o on.

T;:;H~ " o. i34 ·~. C~OSS! Cert:11nly in the district th~t I rep~~s~nt, like in !'laDY other areas of ~~ewfoundland, there is a need for core pari~ a~d c3Dl' sites and picnic sites.

We have ~ne provincial park i: the upper end of tho district, and on the border of t~a district in t!te ~lorth eert~inl:t the ;>ar!:, IUr.d~Ul !li~bt • ,;here I thin!: t!-. e~c is nee~ :or e:-:;:;!nsbr. .:~lthou~h it is ~ct in Jcn~vista :·ort!t, it 9cr..--.:s t~e ;>eopl>l of Bor.avista :-!ort~ <tn:! ::~c ;.eople of ·~!!ltfouncl:t::d. ::r: • .! 1:: !s cert:1inl7 filloc :o C:l;'l:.c:!.t:,• on t:<..:!ny, =n:' occasions. i~eal location in the ~istriet th~t ! rerresent an:! t!tat ts in In1ian !lay, :1 :;re4t :;ood location for a !'Jar!-: could be established :1n~ t .:1:1 s•u:: '·'Ould co"'t!'ibute to the eco:'lot:y of that area. ::ere ~-..7 ~ ~J r.C:!i wi.r!

Cl:'.!~: .. S t:~:l~ a:-c ~H :ln~lc.r '5 --!~li~at ~'~d I t:i.it.~ .. p<!oplc: :.n:J·.: t!la;: =ny ci .. ;os ti•c pri:<l fis.1 ha:. beer. ta::eo fro>:~ t:1e water:: of Inuia::1 J.;y in contests. Cert.:~inl;; peoylc fro :: l St. John's !1ave gene to fish in tlle \laters and elsct7herc in :ie'W'fcunclland, :1:1d brouo,'1t bac!. ;oot! catchc!; an~ bi:; fish. Certainly t!lue is a r.ecd for rea~~a:!on~ toe.

I think ti1erc !J v c ~; ; rent :~c : d for ccn::er~uti~n, conservation by ~;over::t::cnt. llut I c:11:1k t:~crCl 1:; :1ocd for an c.!ucuc;::.Jn into conservation, an eciuc.:~tion of our people. !lhetl1er this fact is true or ::c:: it is a st;:te::.cct :i1at l !1ave :1ear:! quite often, 'iery .:~ftcn uc as ::c\l;ounclan.!~rs ~rc a tiny bi:: .:!c:.t::~ct:!.vc. :lot everyo::e, jut it s~c~ to be in our ~~turc. Certainly c;1crc b n :;eed for tourist c:1.:~lots. 0n t .. c clt! Loop :to.:1d ::her~ is not cal! .:1s ; nt '..ut •.;c loci: ::o t h!! future ui:h :.ope that th!.s enn CO!i:e about.

The han. =~cr for Fogo (C.:~pt~in '!inscr) Sj,lol;c of Crccnsponc. Cert.:~inly ~any people for the si:e of t!le co~unity travel to .:~nd froo Grccnspond. T!1e population of Grecnspond at this point in tioe is 3SZ pco?lc. And l4St year that little coccuoity, in tuo cont!1s .Jlonc, catc!'c:! :o :!,S:JO r ;:.op.!.e. •:,ether t!ley ~~ere pcoj:lle fret:~ t~c '· !ainla:~d, ?Caple