Time: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5 March, 1980 OP ENIN G PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR . SPE AKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle-Ru ssell): Presenting Peti tions Rea ding and Rece iving Peti tions •.• PRESENTING RE PORTS BY STANDIN G AND SPECIAL COM MITTEES MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Govern ment Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the Annual Report of the Departme nt of Govern ment Services for the year 1978-7 9. MINISTERI AL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF RE PORTS MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Educat ion. HO N. KEITH A.

COSENS (Gi mli): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Repo rt of the Universit ies Grants Commission for the year ending March 31, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nist er of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOH NS'ION (Sturgeon Cree k): Mr. Speaker, I have a state ment to make, and I have copies for the House. Mr. Speaker, the following has been announced: Mr . Philip R.

Enns, on behalf of a company to be incorporated at an esti mate capital cost of $1 ,460 ,000 , a project to establish a new facility in Winkler to manufactu re hopper bottom grain trailers, and eventu ally expanding the operation to include highway cargo vans, will be proceeded wit h. Sixty-one employment opportu nities are expect ed in this new facility. This project supports the objectives of the Canada-Man itoba Indust rial Developme nt Agree ment, whi ch places em phasis on cert ain industrial sectors, including transportation and agricultu re .

The new corporat ion has accepted an incentive offer of $394,680 from OREE. Sparry (Inc.) Syndicate, at an esti mate capital cost of �5 56,0 50.00. The company plans to install additional equipment in existing Winnipeg facilit y. The new production equ ipment will allow the company to manufacture general purpose microcomputers. These microcomputers will be developed, teste d and ma nufactured locally. For ty employment opportunities are expected in this expanded opera tion.

This project sup ports the object ives of the Canada-Mani toba Industrial Development agreeme nt , which places emphasis on a certa in industrial sectors, including elect ronics. Sparry (Inc.) Syndicate have accepted a development incentive of $230,213 from OREE. Ancast Industries Li mited of Winnipeg at an esti mated total capital cost of $650,00 0.00. Ancast Indus tries intends to increase their production of metal cas ting substa ntia lly. Eighteen employment opportunities are expected in the expanded operat ion.

This project supports the object ives of the Canada-Ma nitoba Indus tr ial Development Agreement , which places emphasis on certai n industrial sector s, including casting of ferrous metals. Ancast Industries have accepted an incentive offer of $1 26,000 from OREE. Prairie Cabs Li mited of Winkler, at an esti mated capi tal cost of $1 41, 67 7.00. The corn pany plans to add a 5,200 square feet addi tion to the existing facility to install new machina"y and eq uipment. One-half of the new space will be used to expand the existing line of tractor and combine cabs.

The re maining space will be ut ilized in the manufactu re of new line of re ar truc k bumpers and tru ck utility boxes; seven employment opportunit ies are expect ed from this exp ansion. This project sup ports the object ives of the Canada-M anitoba Industrial Development Agreeme nt which places emphasis on certain industrial sector s, including tran sporta tion and farm equipment. Wit h all thes e announced grants the Manit oba Department of Economic Development and Tourism discussed and sup ported these assisted app licat ions wi th the Departme nt of Regional Economic Development. - 351 -

5 March, 1980 We are presently working wit h Prairie Cab Li mited of Winkler regarding assistance on plant layout. We also conducted a sur vey for Ancast Industries Li mited of Winnipeg as to the feasibility of ex pansion. MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposit ion. MR . HOWARD PAWLE Y (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, we have listened to the announce ment by the Minis ter responsible for Economic Development.

First, we find it somewhat passing st range tha t these announcements which generally only appear in newspapers per taining to DREE money, and I believe, that I would be interested in the Minister's comments involving, principally if not to tally , federal money are being announced in the Legislature. It seems to be evidence of the Minister's desperation to demonstrate that some thing is happening by way of manufactu ring in Manitoba when he sees fit to announce in this House a DREE grant to a company called Prairie Cabs Li mited of Winkler , employing some seven individuals.

We wonder if the Ministe r will list to us by way of public announcement the bankruptcies which occur in this House as were enunciated by way of re ference from the Honourable Me mber for Inkste r yeste rday . We have a nu mber of qu estions which we woula pose to the Minister pertaining to his announcement s. MR . SPEAKER: Order , please. The Honour able Govern ment House Leader on a point of order. HON. GER ALD W .J. MER CIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I believe th e rules clearly provide that resp onse fro rn me rnbers opposite should be confined to the facts and not be such as to provoke debate. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWL EY: Mr. Speaker, if the Mini ster is going to see fi t to make these announcements in the House we intend to reserve our ri ght to resp ond to his announcements. That is the Minister's choice. Mr. Speaker, we would ask the Mi nister for some further expansion at some point as to whether there are provincial mon eys involved in respect to these grant announcements.

We would ask th e Minister as to what type of control devices are being exercised insofar as the proper distribu tion of these moneys in order to ensure the objecti ves tha t are outlined in the announce ment whic h he has presented to us today. We are also inte rested, Mr. Speaker, in finding out from the Minister whe ther or not the announce ment involves only grants or whether in fact the Minister is attaching a condition to the grants that th ere be so me share equity received by return insofar as that payment out of public funds.

Are the public to benefit in the event of su ccess of these commercial opera tions, the manufactu ring ente rprises, or is the public going to lose, whe ther or no t the parti cular manufacturing industry su cceeds or fails? Mr. Speaker, we ask th at qu est ion because we reca ll the escap:tde in which the First Minister was involved in, along with a former premier of this province, wit h Ch urchill Forest Indust ries, millions upon millions of dollars paid out wit h no return of equity to the people of the Province of Manitoba. Mr .

Speaker, if the Minister sees fit to make announce ments per taining to DREE grant s in this House we have que st ions, we shall present those ques tions and we will be looking forward to an opportunity during the Minister's debate pertaining to his Est i mates to fully and corn prehensively deal wi th these ques tions. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Reso urces. HON. BR IAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to table two report s: The Annual Repo rt for the Manit oba Departme nt of Mines, Natural Reso urces and Environment for the year ending March 31, 1979; and the Conserva tion Districts of Manitoba Annual Report for 1978 . MR . SPEAKER: Noti ces of Motion •.. Introduction of Bills .•. Before we proceed wi th .•• The Honourable Me mber for St. George. - 352 -

5 March, 1980 MR . BILLIE UR USKI: Ye s, Mr . Speaker. Before we �ocee<l into oral quest ions I rise on a matter of privilege of this House, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, upon questioning from the Me mber for Rock Lake, the Minister of Agriculture I believe, Mr.

Speaker, knowingly misled this Chamber an<l the people of Manitoba by stating that the �evious gover nment ha<l stopped the flow of hogs from Saskatchewan knowing that this st at ement was false; an<l tha t secon<lly , leaving the impression that this somehow, an action that happened eight or nine years ago, had some <lirect influence on the closure of the Swifts plant. Mr.

Speaker, the facts of the matt er are th at the Manit oba Hog Producers' Board ha<l, through le gal action, trie<l to prevent the importation of hogs by the packing companies to the Province of Manitoba rathe r than marketing the hogs through the syst em which they would have allowed in the Province of Manitoba bu t the packing houses were bringing in the hogs into the Province of Manit oba under the table; an<l tha t's what the board tr ied to �event, and not the Govern ment of Manitoba. Secondly, Mr .

Speaker, the �o<luction of Manit oba hogs during those three years after the Hog Board's res tri ction, or at te mpted restriction, which they ulti mately lost in the courts thro ugh a Supreme Court decision, Manitoba's production was in excess of one million hogs per year, which amount Mani toba has now jus t reached in the last year or two. Thir<lly, Mr . Speaker, the Minister's st at e ments were not only phony but they were a re<l herr ing tryi ng to cover up his colleagues' in<lifference an<l inaction tow ar<15 the in<lus try an<l wockers that were displaced by the closure of the Swifts plant, Mr . Speaker.

MR . SPEAK ER: I thank the Honourable Me mber for St. George for his interpre tation of the statement. I do regretf ully have to say it was not a point of �i vilege. Before we proceed I shoul<l like to introduce to the honourable members ..• The Ho nourable Me mber for St. George. MR . UR USKI: The matter of �i vil ege is that the Minist er <lid make a state ment that it was in fact this ac tion tha t le<l to the closure of this •.• MR. SPE AKER: Or<ler please. Or<ler please.

I have to a<lvise the honourable member that once the Speaker has made a ruling the honourable member knows full well what ave nues are open to him after that point. INTRODUCTIO N OF GU ESTS MR . SPE AKER: At this parti cular point I woul<l like to introduce to the honourable members the Tanzanian High Commissioner, Chief M. Luku mbuzya. Chief Luku mbuzya has hel<l severa l important roles in the last several years. He was Ambassador to the United States and then he was Ambassador to the Nordic countries, and in 1975 he beca me the High Com missioner in Ottawa.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. We also have 50 visitors from MacM aster University Chorus from Hamilton, Ontario, as well as 29 students of Grade 5 standing from the Ja mes Nisbet Community School under the direction of Mrs. Jenkins. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Me mber for Seven Oaks. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QU ESTIO NS MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, my qu est ion is to the First Minist er.

In view of the policy of this government , de monstra te d over the past year of ex tre me ti m1<lity an<l reluctance enuncia ting for Manitoba a policy which woul<l clearly define a direction for Manitoba pert aining to energy , his unwillingness to embarrass both Clark and Lougheed, I ask the First Minist er if, in view of the announce ment by the Federal Minister of Energy , Mark Lalonde, the discussions will be hel<l wi th the pro vinces perta ining to a new pricing formula pertaining to crude oil; whethe r or not the First Minister will continue a policy of not embar rassing his federal counte rp ar ts. - 353 -

5 March, 1980 MR. SP EAK ER: The Honourable First Minister. HO N. STER LING R. LY ON (Premier)( Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, wit hout accepting in any way any of the pre mises which were outlined by the Leader of the Opposition in his rat her loose qu estion, I can say to the Me mber for Selkirk opposite that it will be the inten tion of this government to continue to work wi th the new government of Prime Ministe r Trudeau wit h respec t to a sane energy policy, wit h respect to pricing and all of th e other facets of that policy, wi thou t re gard really to the

part icular partisan makeup of Mr. Trudeau's govern ment or the govern ment that preceded him or the Govern ment of Alberta or any other such government. I real ize that these are motivating factors with my honourable friends opposit e. I want to assure hi m and the people of Mani toba the y are not motivating factors wi th this govern ment as they wa-e with his government when he was in office. For his furt her edification, Mr.

Speaker, because he seems to be suffering ei ther from a want of knowledge or an unwillingness to learn what happene d at the publicly televised conference on ena-gy on November 12 , 1979, I will be qui te happy to provide him or his office wit h a copy of the st at e ment that was made public at that ti me by me, speaking on behalf of the govern ment of the people of Manit oba, which in no way reflects any of the words of appropriu m or suggestion that he has just made misleadingly to the House. After he has read tha t he might then perhaps be in a position to frame a sensible questio n. MR .

PAWLEY : A su pplement ary. The very clear impression has been left by the First Minister over the past two or three months as to his policies, it was one not to inti midate, not to embarrass Clark and Lougheed. I ask the First Minis ter whether the policy of the Province of Manitoba, his government , is sti ll to urge an increase in the price of crude oil to levels near the world price. MR. LY ON: Well, Mr .

Speaker, I am afraid that my friend, the Leader of the Opposition, is again be tr aying his abysmal ignorance of the energy situa tion in Canada and I am going to hasten to send a copy of my st at ement to him because I am sure that upon reflect ion he will realize that in that st at ement we talked , as did, and le t me re mind him of this, Mr . Speaker, as did th e nine provinces of Canada, including the socialist province of Saskatc hewan which shows a bit more in sight into these problems than my honourable friends opposite.

We all agreed, wi th the exception of Ontario, we all agreed that Canada had to achieve self-sufficiency by 1990. We all agreed tha t in order to do tha t there had to be established, and govern ments use different terminology for the expre ssion of it . a self-sufficiency price, a Canadian self-sufficiency price is the term I believe that I used and that can be verified from the state ment that I will send to him. The Clark govern ment at that ti me was proposing an eventual price to be reached of 85 percent of the Chicago price , which is not the world price in case my honourable friend does not know that.

And I say further, Mr. Speaker, tha t in the course of our brief to the federal gover nment we talked about rebates to people of low or medium incomes, su ch as were proposed in Mr . Crosbie's budget which my honourable friend's colleagues de feated; we talked about the federal governm ent involving its elf in a form of spec ial rebate for northern residents right across Canada , whi eh I daresay my honourable friend would find some sup port for. We talked about a number of othe r it ems for a general sane energy policy for Canada.

Now if my honourable friend will just stop fleeing epi thets across the House, inform hi mself of what the position of the Govern ment of Manit oba was, inform himself of the fact, Mr. Speaker, tha t that position, by and large, was support ed by nine ot her pro vinces in Canada, with the sole exception of Ontario. Then when he has done all of these things we will per haps pay some at ten tion to his mutte rings about en ergy in th is House. MR. SPE AKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to honourable members that there is a very good chapte r in Beauc hesne, Fifth Edition,

Chapter 9, dealing wi th ques tions and the answers to those quest ions, where answers should be brief and to the point, and where que stions ought no t to provoke debate. I would hope tha t members would use their ti me wisely during the 40 minut es allocated every day to the qu estion period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion. - 354 -

5 March , 1980 MR . PAW LEY: Mr . Speaker, I thank you very much for your aovice to this Chamber, the que sti on which I posed to the First Minister was precise, it only requ ired a yes or no from the First Minister. It did not require, on the part of the First Minister, a five minute spew of irrelevant comment. Mr. Speaker, further to the First Ministe r's indicat ion tha t he wishes to continu e lining up wit h the oil exporting provinces, whet her they be Alberta or Saskat chewan.

I would ask the First Minister whether or no t it's his view tha t there is more in common, as far as the inter ests of the province of Manitoba is concerned, wit h Saskatchewan and Alber ta, oil ex porting provinces, than wi th the pro vince of Ontario, an oil im port ing province? MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable First Minister. MR . LY ON: Mr.

Speaker, the position of the Goverme nt of Mani toba wi th respect to the energy policy expre ssed by the federal governm ent at the meet ing on Nove mber 12 th, and exp ressed by the ot her 10 provinces at tha t ti me, was very explicit to anyone who took the ti me to listen to that conference and to read the briefing papers that ca me from that conference. Obviously my honourable friend has not done so, and I suggest again, with respect, Sir, that until he does so he's wasting the ti me of the House asking his frivolous questi ons. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. WARN ER H.

JORGEN SON (M orris): Mr. Speaker, in res ponse to a ques tion that was posed yesterday by the Me mber for Inkster, and also an invitation that was extended to me just a few moment s by the Leader of the Opposition, and the quest ion dealing with bankruptcies, I would like to answer the qu estion that was posed by the Me mber for Inkster.

He asked if the Ministe r could confirm tha t bankruptcies have increased from the last year in which the New Democra ti c Party was in power, the last full year which was in 1976, and I want to draw at tentio n, Sir, the significance of the honourable member using that particular year.

In answer to his ques tion I can tell him that bankruptcies in the province of Manitoba, for that parti cular period , from 1976 to 1979, did indeed increase by 64.1 percent; but the bankruptcies at the same ti me, during the same period in othe r pro vinces, wer e as follows: in Albert a, there was a 95 percent increase; in Ontario, there was a 73 percent increase; in Quebec, a 92 percent inc re ase, in New Bru nswick, a 223 percent increase; in Nova Scotia, a 97 percent increase, in Prince Edward Island, a 66 percent increase.

And I might add tha t in the province that did not have to, in words of the Me mber for Inkster, did not have to endure this massive ex peri ment in 18t h centu ry capi talism, the y enjoyed a 99.5 percen t incre ase in bankruptcies the same period. Mr. Speaker, the member also att empted to relate foreclosures in the second part of his questi on to bankruptcies and the tw o are no t the sa me. I should also draw to his atte nt ion that there is also a pret ty significant difference bet ween business bankruptcies in the province of Manitoba and personal bankruptcies.

And the reason why my honourable friend chose 1976, be cause the end of 1977 - and I don't have to re mind the honourable members that they wer e in power for 10 of the 12 mo nths of that year, and it would be st re tc hing the imagination a lit tle bit too much to suppose that there would be a moratoriu m held on bankruptcies in those first 10 months - the bankruptcies in 1977, from 1976, increased by 11 5 percent, from 53 to 11 4.

And then in the first full year, in the first year that the present government was in power, they dropped to 80 - these are business bankruptcies - and then rose again to 90 in 1979 when the last figures are available. Per sonal bankruptcies have indeed increased as the y have all across the country and I don't think that even my ho nourable friend can draw any conclusions other than the use of credi t tha t is becoming so predominant in our society today has contribu ted a great deal to the personal bankruptcies across Canada. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. MR . SIDNEY GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I am pleased to see that the Minister for Consumer Affairs has learned from the former Me mber for Ross mere as to how to deal wi th co mparable statis ti cs, which were not accepted by honourable members in previous years. Mr. Speaker, I have a ques tion to direct to the Honourable Minist er of Education. Due to the fact that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 has indicated that there is to be a drop in - 355 -

5 March , 1980 pupil/teacher ratios due to difficult financing will the Minister see to it - excuse me the ratio has increased, that is corre ct - will the Minister see to it tha t a co ndition of public funds going to i;x-ivate schools be that there be no i;x-eferable or more favourable pupil/student ratio in the priva te schools than there is in the public schools? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR . COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I think the Me mber for Inkste r is being a bi t facetious again.

I would su ggest to him that school boards cer tainly have wit hin their jurisdiction to make the dete rmina tion as to what parti cular pupil/teache r ratios they may have in their Divisions. If Winnipeg School Division has decided that they will go wit h a cer tain teache r/pupil ration, then that is the ir decision, although I have received no confirmation of tha t to this point . MR . GREE N: Mr. Speaker, the First Minist er should indicate to the member that he obviously can't unders tand the questi on and there fore I will repeat it.

Will the Mini ster see to it that if teacher/pupil ratios are made less favourable in the public school syst em , that as a condition --{Inte rje ct ion)-- it is not hypotheti cal - as a condition of public moneys going to i;x-ivate schools, there be no more favourable sit uation in the priva te schools than is made necessary in the public schools by the restraint program? MR . COSENS: Mr. Speaker, there has been nothing in the formulas that have applied to the schools of this province tha t has ever guaran teed a certain pupil/te ac her ratio and I can foresee nothing in the future. MR . GRE EN: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Educa tion. In view of the evident dete riorati on of the public school syst em, will the Ministe r of Educa tion see to it, in his position of c0ntroll ing educa tional stand ards throu ghout this province, that the private schools will no t have more favourable conditions than the public schools because of the restraint i;x-ogram and that those i;x-ivate schools that receive public taxa tion money not be able to develop an elite syste m alongside of a public school syste m which is being damaged by the actions of this government ? MR . COSENS: Well , Mr .

Speaker, I have heard these argu ments from the Me mber for Inkster be fore. If he's going to talk about evident de te riora tion then I would like him to really back it up wit h some i;x-oof. He can throw out adjecti ves that are more or less attuned to trying to get people emoti onally disturbed and so on all he wishes. I suggest tha t he back it up with some proof when he st arts to talk about de ter ioration. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Bu rrows. MR . BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my qu estion to the Honourable Ministe r of ••• MR . SPEAKER: Order. Order please.

Can we have a little decorum in the Chamber, please? The Ho nourable Me mber for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to direct my qu estion to the Honourable Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. Could the Minister explain his fishes and the loaves tr ick as it relates to the corporate welfare payment announced a week and a half ago by him and na mely the $30 0 ,000 we lfare payments to K-Cycle in that the Order-in-Council st ates that the Minister has sufficient funds in his appropriation, bu t according to the Esti mates, the House app roveo only $24,000 for this pur pose.

In other words, how did the Minister manage to pay $300,0 00 out of a $24,000 appropria tion? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. - 356 -

5 March, 1980 MR . JO HNSTO N : Mr . Speaker, it 's an Enabling Vote and a very good quest ion for the Estima tes. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister then how he would explain the phras e "w i thin the Order-in -Council" which states very clearly , and

whereas the appropri at ion for the De partme nt of Economic Development and Touris m for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1980, contains an item in which there are sufficient moneys available to make this grant. MR . JO HNSTO N : That's correct, Mr. Speaker , there are su fficient funds to make the grant. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Burrows with a final supplementary. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. But according to the Estimate book, Mr .

Speaker, would the Honourable Minister then explain that if he says tha t there are su fficient funds bu t the book only shows $24,00 0 and not $3 00,000 under this appropriation? MR . JO HNSTO N : Mr . Speaker, I explained it 's an Enabling Vote and it 's a very good question for the Esti mat es. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. MR S. JU NE WESTBU RY: Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is addressed to the Minister of Health and refers to the ix-oposed renovations to the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals which he announced last we ek.

There's quite a considerable amount of confusion as to just what this pro posal. cover s, Mr.

Speaker, and I would like to ask the Minister whethe r this is a reappro val. of the functional progra m which was approved by the former Tory govern ment in 1967 which included upgrading of all the rooms in the existing program and did not take place; or whether it 's the 1972 program which cancelled the 1967 one and au thorized reactiva tion and upgrading of the 1964 Chronic Extended Care Program; and whet her it in turn cancels the constr uction of a new personal. care home inc luding an addi tion of 40 new beds for the polio pat ients which was cancelled or delayed because of restraint in 1978 .

Which program is it or is it none of these please, Mr. Speaker? MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (F ort Garry): Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, it 's none of those. Bu t I will re-1:!mmine the para meters of the pro gram and adVise the honourable lady furt her. It's my understanding th at the project has to do wi th the regeneration and conversion of the former nurses' residence on the municipal hospital site to accommodate many servi ces of the hospital that are now in overcrowded environ ments.

There is no cancellat ion of the proposed futu re development of a personal. care home on the sit e. MR . SPE AKER: The Ho nourable Me mber for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDI NG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Educat ion. In answer to a quest ion a few days ago he used the words, "we are st udying very carefully some new syste m of grants" - for education, tha t is. I wonder if the Ministe r could inform the House as to the nature and form of the study. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Educat ion. MR . COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, since the first week we came in to govern ment I have been conducting a st udy; it 's among the senior members of my staff, those who have special training in the area of educational finance, and they have been looking very carefully at all aspects of this parti cular problem. As I say , we've had two years at it, we feel we are getting closer, th at we do have some alternatives that we can look at at this ti me. I would be qu ite willi ng to go into this wi th more detail wi th the member during my Esti mates, if he so desires. - 357 -

5 March , 1980 MR . WALDI NG: A su pplement ary qu estion, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the same Minister whe ther he has received a preliminary or inte ri m re port from this st udy group yet. MR . COSENS: Not an official report, if the member is speaking of a report in the sense of some thing that is bound and submi tted to this House. It's an in-dep artment study that has been carried on for some ti me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Vi tal wit h a final supplementary. MR. WALDI NG: A final supple ment ary questio n, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the meet ings to be held in various Winnipeg schools tomorrow even ing, is the Minister now in a position to inform the House as to the value of the Foundation Program to Winnipeg School Divi sion No. 1? MR . COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I took that qu est ion as notice from the honourable member and I will get tha t information for him. I can only adVise him at this ti me tha t the level of su pport provided by this government is exactly the sa me level as last year; it has not been diminished. In fact it might be of interest to him tha t the level is the sa me as the provincial support in 1976. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Ch urch ill . MR . JA Y COW AN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques tion is to the Ministe r of Health. Can the Minister confir m that he st a ted last Dec ember that, and I quote, "M anitoba is the fifth largest province and the fifth wealthiest province in Canada and the net income earn ing opportunit ies for the medical pro fession should be the fifth in Canada" . Can he confirm that he made tha t stat e ment or words to that intent and tha t effect last December? MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Minist er of Healt h. MR . SHERM AN: I can't confirm the date, Mr.

Speaker , but I can confirm that I have made st at ements to that effect and it re mains my conviction. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Churchill. MR . CO W AN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, if the Minist er will trust me that those stat ements wer e quoted as being maae last December, can the Minister then confirm that figures released earlier today by the Ca nadian Union of Public Employees indicate that at the same ti me the Minister was making that previous stat e ment that I just quoted, to use only one exa mple, wages for housekeeping aides working in many Manit oba hospitals were the ninth lowest in comparison to wages paid for the same job classification in ot her pro vinces? MR. SHERMAN: No, I can't confirm that, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Churchill with a final supple ment ary. MR . COW AN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaking to the general subject, the general ques tion then , is the Ministe r prepared to reco mmend tha t in keeping with his early sta tement, in specific, housekeeping aides and, in general, health sect or workers in the Province of Manitoba should also enjoy at least the fi fth highest net income opportu ni ties in Canada? Can he confirm that that would follow and he would rec ommend that according to stat ement s he had made last Dece mber in re gard to the medical profession in general ? MR.

SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, all things being eq ual, that would cert ainly be my inclina tion and certainly be my approach to the compensation of professionals or semi-professionals and others in our health care field. However, I would point out, that wit h respect to the medical profession, wi th respect to the lures and att ract ions that exis t in ot her jurisdictions, parti cularly in the Un ited States, that Manit oba and other provinces in Canada are in an ext re mely volatile and compet itive market, Mr. Speaker.

I think one would concede, even if he or she sits on that side of the House, th at the central, fundamental, most important ingredient of our health care sy ste m rema ins our doctors . - 358 -

5 March, 1980 MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Ruper tsland. MR . HARVE Y BO STROM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My qu estion is for the Minister of Highways, in his capacity as being res ponsible for the winter roads syst em. I wonder if the Minister would under take to maintain the wint er road syste m open at least two weeks longer at the end of the season, given the fact tha t the winte r road was at least two we eks late in commencing this winter. MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Transpor tation. HON. DON ORCH ARD (Pembina� Mr.

Speaker, the winter road syst em , it is the departm ent's intention to leave the wint er road syste m open and operating as long as is necessary to move in the needed gooas and services to be provide<I to the community serviceo by wint er roaas. MR . BOSTROM: My second qu estion, Mr .

Speaker, is to the Minist er of Resources , and I would ask him if he has received a le tte r from the Norway House Fisherme ns Co-op in which they st ate, as members of the Norway House Fisherm ens Co-op, th at they have unanimously reje cted the proposed licence lea sing sy st e m he is proposing and indicate the y are happy with the existing syste m and that they are satisfied wit h the way the Fresh water Fish Marketing Corp oration is present ly operating. And in case, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister is not aware of this letter and does not have his copy, I will provide him wit h a copy by way of tabling this le tte r for the House. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR . RANSOM: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but I am very pleased to see that the condition of the fishery has im!X'oved so much over the past two years. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for The Pas. MR . RONALD McBR Y D E: Mr. Speaker, I have a quest ion also for the Minister of Resources.

I wonder if the Ministe r could tell the House whether or no t the payments to fisherm en for the fish tran sportation subsidy, whethe r those payments have gone out in the last we ek or so and, if not, when they will be going out to fisherm en. MR. RANSOM: I will be happy to take the qu est ion as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR . McB RYDE : Mr. Speaker , while he is taking tha t quest ion as notice perhaps he could also inform the House why the payments are so late for this year. MR . RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I said that I would be happy to investigate the qu estion of the transportat ion subsidies, and I shall do that and report to the House. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for The Pas wi th a final supple mentary. MR. McB RYDE: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. Again a qu estion to the Minister of Resources, which is a re peat of a question I asked hi m a week ago. I wonder if the Ministe r could now indicate where, if anywhere, qu alified fishermen are receiving fishing licences as per his announcement. MR. RANSOM: I think, Mr.

Speaker, if I recall the qu est ion correctly, that the res ponse would be tha t any fisherman in the northern area who had qu alified or had been fishing during the past three years was able to qualify for a wint er fishing licence this year. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. George . MR. UR USKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My qu estion is to the Minister of Healt h, following stat ements tha t he made the ot her aay in the paper concerning the opera tions of the Lake shore Di st rict Health Board, and I would like to ask the Mini ster of Healt h whether he now is prepared to allow the board to opera te in its de mocratic fashion and abandon his interference wit h the board. - 359 -

5 March, 1980 MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Health. MR . SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that course of action will differ no way wit h the ac tion tha t has been followed is the past and the board its elf, or at least the Executive Council of the board, wit h whom rve been in contact in recent days, will be meeting wit h me or I will be meeting wi th the m dur ing the mont h of March to dot the "i 's" and cross the "t's" on the final plans for that dist ric t syste m. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. George. MR .

UR USKI: Will the Minister indicate to this House and to the people of the area, since he menti oned to members of the board, tha t since he had received a pet ition of 500 signatures, th at this was the reason why there was a holdup against th e board's decision when they priorized that Er iksdale should be built first and both homes should be built toge ther? Would the Minister now, if he was presented wit h a pet ition of the majorit y of citizens in that distri ct board, allow that decision to be the decision tha t will guide him wi th respect to the interference that he has had wit h the distr ict board?

MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of He alth. MR . SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, the pet it ion to which the honourable member refers had no fundamental bearing on the decision tha t was made, or the course of ac tion that's being followed, to any extent grea ter than any other submission or entreaty or approach that was made to me. All four municipalities in the local govern ment district involved in that district health syst em made continual entreaties to me. What the governm ent is trying to do is balance those legit imate ambitions. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for St .

George wit h a final supplementary. MR. UR USKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, then following the Minister's stat ements it should follow that th e Minist er should have accepted the majorit y of the decision wit h only one dissenting member, the decis ion of the distri ct board to priorize and have the gover nment accept the original pro posal of the board th at was accepted by the Manit oba Health Services Commission, the distri ct board and the previous govern ment, bu t rejected by this govern ment and those two Ministers, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPE AKER: Order please. Order please.

May I point out to the honourable member tha t he was using the ques tion period for making stat emen ts, which is hardly the proper use of the quest ion period. The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, rd like to direct a question to the Ho nourable Minister of Economic De velopment, pursuant, Mr. Speaker, to his st at ement of providing social assistance to needy industrialists.

Would the Minister confirm that the announce ments made thus far, in the last 10 days, indicate public taxa tion and public funds going to priva te business to the extent of ro ughly $1 ,200,000, which is four ti mes the loss experienced by Morden Fine Foods whi ch the present govern ment said was intolerable. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Deve lopment. MR . JO HNS'ION: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the fact that the grants tha t were made by the federal departme nt of DREE were in any way, shape or form the way the honourable member puts it .

You know, to clarify the mind of the honourable member, the nu mber of projects that I announced today were projects that wer e planned and worked on by Manit oba manufactu r ers for ei ther ex pansion or new ones. They have every opportunity to apply to DR EE. I don't see that there is any relationship whatsoever to Morden Fine Foods. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, will the honourable member confirm tha t this ex penditu re of public funds, to assis t needy industrialist s, will, Mr.

Speaker, not be shown on any set of books as constituting a loss to the public, because the Progressive Conserva tives have eliminat ed losses by giving gifts. - 360 -

5 March, 1980 MR. JOHNSTON: I can certainly verify; I think I'm cor rect, Mr. Speaker, when I agree that it won't show on any set of provincial books. It will show in the books of the companies who have made appli cation to federal DREE, and it will probably show in the federal DREE books what assistance they've given. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for In kster with final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Minister confirm that if these moneys were shown as loans, which is done by businesslike people and which was done by a businesslike government in the past, that present interest rates being what they are, $1 million now with interest rates at 17 percent in the Un ited States, tha t that will represent a loss, if it was shown as a loan, within 5 years of over $2 million. MR. JOHNSTON: If the honourable member wishes or believes that it should be shown as a loan; it wasn't a loan, they were grants by DREE. And I migtit say, Mr.

Speaker, they were grants by DREE which are available to the people of Manitoba, man ufacturers of Manitoba, because we are desi gnated as such by the federal government. It's as purely and simpl y as th at. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Economic Development and ask the Honourable Minister, respecting the DREE gr ants which are federal grants normally announced by the federal gover nment, whether these partic ular announcements were indeed made previously by the federal gover nment, and if so, when were these announcements made by Otta wa? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I tried to make the announcement yeste raay, but th rougti my own neglect forgot to bring copies of the announcement, and I was asked to make the announcement at another time.

That's why I st arted my statement, Mr. Speaker, by saying the following has been announced. If the honourable member would read that statement he would find that and it was announced in the papers and I wasn't able to make the announcement yesterday. But I see nothing wrong, Mr. Speaker, and Pm quite aware of the fact that it hu rts members on the other side to see any devopment of economic development, or expansion of manufact uring and jobs in this province. And I know th at it hu rts them but I intend to keep telling them when it happens in this province. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

While I was Minister of Industry many DREE grants we re announced by Ottawa, and the proced ure was for the federal gover nment to announce, so my question to the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker, is whether there is any provincial money going into these particular enterp rises which would justify an announcement by the provincial Minister or is this entirely federal money tha t we're talking about? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, it's entirely federal money, Mr. Speaker, and the member also says that they were done du ring his time.

Well, then he should have taken the opport unity, as is being done now - I do n't know whether it was done then, but if it was being done then - he should have announced that the Department of Economic Development of the province of Manitoba has worked with all of these people to bring this to happening and we are very proud of the fact that we are able to assist people to adVance the manufact uring in this province. We have been involved in all of them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RU SSELL DOERN (Elmwood}. Mr.

Speaker, Pd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Af fairs and ask her if she would confirm that Mary Liz Bayer has resigned from her departme nt? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. NORMA L. PR ICE (Assiniboia): Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister indicate whether Ms Sayer's resignation was due to a disagreement with government policy? MRS . PR ICE: No, I can't, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister indicate whether Miss Sayer's resignation was due to a disag reement with government policy? - 361 -

5 March, 1980 MR S. PRICE: No, I can't, Mr. Speaker. MR . DOE RN: Well, could the Minist er indicate on what basis this distinguished public servant took an early re tire ment? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , she had been speaking about it for the past year, wanting to do a littl e free-lancing and some writing of childre n's st ories tha t she does so well, and when she was in B.C . last Dec ember, she made plans for an early ret ire ment. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Burrows. MR . HANUSCHAK: Ye s, Mr. Speaker.

I have a furthe r ques tion that I wish to direct to the Honourable Minister of Economic De velopment.

In view of the fact that the Order-in-Council approving the corporat e welfare payment to K-Cycle appears to be a carte blanche in tha t it does no t show the term s and conditions under which the grant was made, could the Minist er indicat e what checks and controls are imposed on recip ient s of su ch grant s to assure Manitobans that the funds will be used for the intended pur poses and not , nu mber one, to build houses in Tuxedo for co mpany presidents or, nu mber two, that Manitobans will share in the economic benefits, if any, from such welfare grants? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Economic Deve lopment. MR . JO HNSTON: There are three parts to tha t question, Mr. Speaker , and the second

part is not wort h answering. Well, Mr. Speaker, I say to the honourable members that they've created a class distinc tion in this province, if they can, and that's one of the reasons you just heard tha t they do do it . Mr. Speaker, there were negotiations with K-Cycle. I was ques tioned about K-Cycle in my Esti mates last ·y ear, by the Me mber for Transcona as a matter of fact , when he showed great concer n as to whet her we might lose K-Cyc le to the United States.

K-Cycle has been working in Manitoba for a long ti me and I might say also that K-Cyc le has had the opportu nity, probably, to leave this province more than any ot her company and he has loyally stuck wi th the Province of Manit oba. I could also say that the development of the negotiations we have wit h th em, the bu ilding that is there - the test building - is se parate from all the ot her buildings. They became overcrowded for resear ch, experi mental work and testing at the Universit y of Manit oba. We have an agree ment wi th them to test all ot her ty pes of fuels in engines, on those engines' stands.

We ha ve an agreement wi th th em that the facility can be used for testing for other corn panies in the Province of Manitoba. We also, Mr . Speaker, have arrange ments with th em whereby we have a mortgage on the building wi th the agree ment bu t the people's money is in a very sta ble position and the building is getting used for res earch and development, which is a necessary thing in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Burrows with a final supplementary. MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes. My supplemen tary ques tion is, Mr.

Speaker , now tha t we've heard the Minister's praises of K-Cycle, which I did not in any way cr it icize, would the Ministe r now answer the ques tion put to him of what checks and controls are imposed in agreement s related to such welfare grants to assure th at the moneys will be used for the purposes desi gna ted? And se condly, what checks and controls are incorporated int o agree ments bet we en the reci pients of grants and government to assure tha t the people of Manitoba would reap the benefits of any successes th at the grants of this kind may generate? - 362 -

5 March, 1980 MR. JOHNSTON: Benefits, if the K-Cycle engine (X'oduces the results that it look s like it's going to prod uce; the benefits of energy-savin g for everybod y in Canada and North America, and the w<rld will benefit. All of our farmers will benef'i t. We will be able to test engines there that wi ll wcrk on farm machinery , which is part of our program. -(Inter jection)- I told the honourab le member that the checks and balances are there to protect the people of Manit oba's money.

We now have a research facility tha t is being used by K-Cycle , who are not welfare bums, who are fine people in the Pro vince of Manitoba, and we will continue to wor k for research in this province for the development to the benefit of the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Question Period having expired , proceed with Order s of the Day. Order for Re turn . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a matter of privilege. MR. PA WLE Y: Matter of (X'ivilege, Mr. Speaker. I would appreciate, Mr.

Speaker , if you were able to indicate whether or not you've had an opport unity to peruse the matter which you took under a<lVisement yesterday, referenced to on Pa ge 31 8 of Hansard. MR. SPEAK ER: I have not had the opport unity as yet . ORDER S OF THE DAY ORDE R FO R RETURN NO . 1: On Motion of Mrs. Westbury, Ord er for Re turn .

THAT an Order of the House <lo issue for a Return of the follo wing information: (1 ) The legal descr ipt ion and civic address (i.e., st reet and number) of each parcel of land owned, leased or rented by the Pr ovince of Manitoba within the area bounded on the north by Graham Av enue, on the east by Garry St reet, on the south by Assiniboine Avenue, and on the west by Kennedy St reet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCI ER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to accept this Order. BU SINESS OF THE HO USE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, per haps I could advise all member s of the order in which Estimates will be consid ered in the House and outside the House. Inside the House, it is, as disc ussed with the Opposition House Leader: La bour and Manpower will proceed today ; followed by Civil Service; Natural Resourc es; Education; Health ; Community Ser vices and Cor rections.

Outside the House, in Room 25 4, beginning tomorrow, will be the Attor ney-General's Department ; followed by Highways and Transportation; Fitness, Rec reation and Sport ; Co-operative Development ; Gover nment Ser vices; Cultural Affair s and Historical Resources; Urb an Affairs; Consumer and Corporate Affairs and En vi ronment; Finance; Fnergy and Mines. The balance will be indicated at a later date, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MO TION pr esented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower. - 363 -

5 Marc h, 1980 COM MITTEE OF SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOW ER MR . KOVN A TS: Order please. I would direct the honourable members' att ention to page 68 of the Main Esti mates, Departme nt of Labour and Manpower, Resolu tion No. 89, Ite m 1. General Administration, (

a) Minist er's Compensation. The Honourable Minister. HO N. KEN Mac MASTER (Thom{l>on): Mr. Chair man, I have a few opening re marks I would like to make which will take a few minu tes but I want to run through , very brie fly, some of the events of 1979 and where we think we're going in the Depa rtme nt of Labour in 1980. First, Mr . Chairman, I want to wish you well as we open the review of our govern ment's and my departme nt's spending Esti mates for the fiscal year of the 1980s. I also want to assure you, Sir, of my full co-operation.

As you can easily see by our i979 Annual Report the Departme nt of Labour and Manpower has just enjoyed an extr emely succe ssful year . Mr. Chair man, so me people like to think of the spending Esti mates as being somet hing like a duck hunt. They pictu re the Cabinet Ministers as being the ducks flying over the honourable members opposite who are ar med with guns and loaded ques tions. If we carry that picture a littl e farther then I guess I could be considered the lead duck.

But I, nor any of my Cabinet colleagues, are afraid of the qu estions of the honourable hunt ers opposite because we know that reall y in fact they will be firing blanks in this parti cular case. Our gover nment is one which is serv ing all the people in Manit oba and serv ing th em well just as we had promised we would. As indicated in the Annual Report last year was one of action in consolidation and re organization.

The Manpower Division has been fully integrated into the departme nt's operat ions and with the new personnel on the Manpower side we can promise substantial job tra ining, job opportu nity , job crea tion. Programs will be available to working men and women and to those who want to enter the labour market. On the Labour Di vision side of the dep artme nt we will be continuing our considerable efforts to improve the labour relations climat e in Manit oba, an industrial climat e which promotes harmony and respect between manage ment and labour.

We also will be st rengthening and expanding our init iat ives and programs in the import ant field of Workplace, Safety and Health. Mr. Chair man, our governm ent was the first, and I repeat, was the first, to advance certain bold new init iati ves designed to upgrade and secure the safety and health of working men and women in the places of their employmen t. Ini tiatives like the Lead Cont rol Program , like the Asbestos Control Program, like the Mining Safety Review, like the study pre sently now in place by the Lam pey Committee into the procedures of the Workmens Compensa tion Board . I would go so far, Mr.

Chair man, as to say that the members opposite would be hardpressed to find anot her year, another year, when so much was done for working men and women of Manitoba, in ter ms of em ployment opportun ities, job creation, in terms of implementing be tter systems in the workplace, safety and health area, and in terms of a progressive industr ial climate. The year 1979 was marked by accomplishment and by progress, coupled with what I consider to be sound fiscal manage ment. In addi tion to the dynamic new dire ct ions of the de partme nt we also built upon the strengths of the past. Mr.

Chairman, my departme nt, as the name indicates , has two divisions. Manpower joined the tradi tional Depa rt ment of Lab our in late 1978 , wit h staff coming from Depa rtme nts of Educat ion, Nort hern Affairs, Agricultu re, Economic De velopment and Munici pal Affairs. We're quit e excited about the activi ties of the Manpower Divi sion and the innovations and improve ments since the arrival of it s new Executive Di recto r, a Mr. Orville Buffie. As we go through the Esti mates, Mr .

Chair man, you will lear n about the innovative approaches and substantial programs which the Manpower Division has, and which it is pur suing in co-operat ion with unions, manage ment, educators, the federal govern ment, and ot her pro vincial govern ment de part ments. Wi th our very low unemployment rate in Manitoba the Manpower b ivision has to be extr emely flexible and innovative in order to be su ccessful. Mr. Chairman, the Throne Speech re ferred to our govern ment's des ire to help business and industrial sector to develop and to grow.

One import ant aspect of this stra tegy is the need for tra ined and qu alified workers to fill the jobs essential to our province's economic growth and future well-being. - 364 -

5 March , 1980 Through discussions and negotiations with the federal govern ment my Manpower staff have been able to increase the amount of funding for tra ining in institu tions like the community colleges; they have also been able to increase the amount of federal funding to train em ployed and unemployed workers on the job; and they have obta ined substantial new funding for training wor kers in the crit ical skills area. Mr. Chairman, management and labour have been involved in helping the Manpower Divi sion to identi fy where tr aining and funding should be directed.

The adVisory group includes represen ta t ives from the Mechanical Contracto rs Association, several companies, and several unions. We are exa mining new methodS for attracting more workers into the blue collar tra des and we are relying on our revi talized tra de adVisory corn mi ttees for adVice. The Throne Speech ment ioned expanding voca tional education opportun ities at the Assiniboine Community College in Brandon and the development of a variety of on-the-job training programs in Manit oba schools.

The Manpower Divi sion is co-operating wit h the Departme nt of Educat ion to bridge the gap between schooling and careers, especially in skills which relat e to the appre nti ceship trades . Special attention will be given to helping women ente r non-tradi tional occupatio ns. In conjunction wi th this program the Manpower Division intends to introduce the concept of career resource centres.

These cent res , su pported by the Manitoba Federa tion of Labour, would be designed to provide informat ional mate rials, career planning and counselling, and to deal wit h all age groups rat her than a specific targe t group. The Cen tres Advisory Committees would be comprised of rep resentati ves from labour, manage ment, parents, business, education, and ot her appropr iate govern ment departments. Mr. Chairman, Manitoba tradi tionally welcomes about 4 percen t of Canada's new im migrants each year. Wi th the Indo-Chinese re fugees that percen tage was up last year.

Manitoba welcomed about 1, 500 re fugees last year, and the total is expect ed to climb to about 3,000 by the end of this year. I want to applaud the many volunteers who have demonst ra ted gen erosity and the best qu alities of mankind in helping the re fugees make a new life in Mani toba. Mr . Chair man, our gover nment has always prided itself in representing the interests and aspira tions of all working men and women, both unionized and non-unionized, and our re cord I think proves that. Last month there were 442,000 Man itobans working. Our unemployment in November and December was at a three-year low.

There are approximately 24,000 more jobs created than when we first ca me into office. Permanent private sector jobs, not th e type of jobs created at the tax payers' ex pense just to fulfill the whim of certa in Cabinet Minis ters , as was often the case under the former administration. Nor have these 24,000 jobs been created at the ex pense of the merit principle in the Civil Service. Mr. Chair man, my honourable friends in opposition have this st range notion th at somehow population growth is directly tied to economic growth.

Add a person and you add economic growth they say; because it is so simpli stic that sort of thinking is an easy trap for people to fall into. Now some members of the new meaia apparently beli eve tha t the wealth ana economic growth of our province is tied by some sort of cora to its population figures. While the members opposite may believe that population and prosperity are one and the sa me, I would su ggest that doubling Manit oba's population to morrow would not au tomatically double our ec onomic security. Bu t, Mr .

Chair man, the point is that fewer people have left Manit oba on an annual basis under our progressive and job-crea ting ad minist ration than under the previous govern ment. Our gover nment has lowered the unemployment level and we have created more jobs than the members opposite did when they were in office. Yet , when my colleague, the Ministe r of Natural Resources, who is also the Chairman of the Treasury Board, st and up during the Throne Speech Debat e and provides the true facts, the meaia ignored him. I hate to sound like someone who wa nts to blame the messenger , however, Mr.

Chair man, I do wonder about the accuracy and fairness and professionalism when the charges of the members opposite are prominently featured in the news reports ana the facts or rebu ttal by the Chairman of the Treas ury Board is not re ported except in Hansard. Le t's just review the facts as pre sented by the Chairman of the Treasury Board when he responded to the myths of the out-mi gration parro tte d by the members opposite. The myt h is that people are rushing to leave Manit oba for s<M!alled greener pastures.

The facts - th e facts are supplied by St at istics Canada are that in the ei ght years , from 1969 to 1977, the averag e out -migration from this province was 34 ,643 people on an annual basis. From 1977 to 1979 that figure was down by more than 1, 300 people to 33,333. The Cha ir man of the board, the Treas ury Board su pplied those statistics over a week ago and challenged the honourable members opposite to prove him wrong. To dat e we have not heard a peep back from him. - 365 -

5 March, 198 0 The reason is obvious, those are the facts and that's the end of the question. The headlines and the scare st ories about people leaving Manit oba in droves are just so much rubbish. The Cha irman of the Treas ury Board also de flated the myt h about no job opportunities for young Manit obans. The st at istics proved conclusively that thousands of jobs th at have been created , have gone to the young, they've been going to managers and to professions.

Our govern ment's policies have encouraged i:x-ivate enterp rise to create 24,0 00 jobs in the last two years, and we have no t relied on short-te rm , make-w ork jobs to art ificially inflate our em ployment rec ord. Our employment rec ord is immensely su perior to that which bites the former ad minist ration's scoreca rd where a mere 10,000 jobs were crea ted between 1974 and 1977. Mr . Chair man, I now want to talk brie fly about the labour division. As the Annual Report indicates we had a su per year there and I don't intend to get into the de tails on the different branches.

I also don't intend to talk in any det ail now about the i:x-ograms mentioned in the Speech from the Throne. What I do want to talk about is a new direct ion and the new focus in industrial relations we've been able to help develop over the past year. We enjoyed an exce llent year in 1979 in terms of industrial rela tions. We re corded the lowest nu mber of days lost due to st rike s and walkout s in Canada. We could say we wer e rea lly the lowest because the only province wi th a bette r record was Prince Edward Island which is a fine province, Mr .

Chair man, but it 's hardly a heavy org anized or industrialized parti cular province. More important, Mr. Chairman, much more significant is what happened to the conduct and the mood of labour relations in Manitoba last year , specifically in the constructi on industry . Less than two years ago labour dispu tes cost the constr uction industry about 15 4,000 lost days. It also cost the industry some of it s credibility and some of it s re put at ion. Those st ri kes in 1978 also, Mr. Chair man, planted a seed of distrust and hatred which could have ruined the industry for decades. Mr.

Chairman, I'm proud to say that the .,construction industry today is involved in a dynamic and !X'Ogressive challenge to develop solid and meaningful labour rela tions. Working with Cam MacLean and John Atwe ll of the Labour- Manage ment Review Committee, a 15 -me mber sub-committee has been at work for about a year. It includes representative s from Labour , from the companies and from my department. Through their efforts both sides are talk ing to each ot her, developing new understa nding and new harmony.

They have held several seminars at Recla Island; our departme nt hosted the first and industry sponsored several more. On December lst, Mr. Chairman, about 15 0 people gathereo at the Winnipeg Inn for a special one-day se minar. The cre<li t obviously belongs to the construction indust ry , to the business and union leaders, who brave the ridicule ano the scepti cism , ano who put aside past ani mosities and !X'ejudices to try and make a new beginning.

The constru ct ion indust ry , wi th the 18 unions and their 7,000 members, and the 140 members of the Construction Lab our Relations Association of Manitoba knew things hao to change, they were losing too much business to non-unionized em ployers. While the credi t truly belongs to the industry and to the dedication of men like Cam MacLean I like to think that my departme nt and my at ti tude played a part. The emphasis has been on co-operat ion without govern ment regulation.

As I've said so often in the past few month s, our govern ment believes that voluntary is always be tter than compulsory. rm not !X'e<licting th at construction unions and companies will now live in ete rnal bliss, in fact , everyone expects tha t their bargaining this year will again be tough . Bu t the constr uction industry has made a new beginning in labour relations, and rm hopeful we will have si milar breakthroughs in ot her sections. In closing, Mr. Chair man, I would like to just comment on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

While I won't release precise deta ils at this ti me, I'd like to say that the council's formation, plus other depar tm ental programs demonstrates our government 's concern for the special issues faceo by wo men in Manitoba. Mr . Chair man, I want to add one final commen t about my departmen t's proposed spending esti mates. Specifically I want to clear up the misconcepti on tha t we are going to be spending less in important areas like workplace, sa fety, health, job creation and youth employment. Our proposed spending is down by about $ 3.5 million.

If you would take a minute or two to study the Est i mates, the reason is obvious. The five-year municipal loans program is ending this. That alone has reduced our spending Esti mates by over $4 million. The Municipal Loans Program has been given about $1 million in order to complete our obligations to the municipalities. Mr. Cha irman, if you take away the Munici pal Loans budget you can easily - 366 -

5 March, 1980 see tha t our depar tme nt will be spending about half a million dollars more this year in Lab our and Manpower division programs. We have been able to keep that increase at this figure through astut e management and proper planning.

As we go through the Fst imates, and as our programs are imple ment ed in the coming year, it will clearly be de monstrated th at our departme nt is going to .be doing more than ever be fore in the important areas of job safety , industrial rela tions, job crea tion, appren ticeship train ing, spec ial employment education and employment opportunit ies for our yout h and for the disadvantaged. Mr . Chair man, my depar tme nt and our govern ment are well on their way to crea ting the ec onomic climate which will see Manitoba prosper.

We are tra ining men and women to be qu alified for the jobs that are being created and which will be created by private enterp rise in the futu re. The Departme nt of Labour and Manpower is people-orie nted; it is concerned about W<X'king men and women in this province. Our programs and our policies and our many accomplishments prove that, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Honourable Me mber for Ch urchill. MR . COW AN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We ll, I am overwhel med by the Ministe r's modesty in explaining what he and his depar tment have been doing over the pas t year, and almost at a loss of words, almost, Mr. Chairpers on, bu t no t qui te. I would just like to apply my thoughts and my comments for the next few moments to some of the su ggestions and some of the stat emen ts tha t the Ministe r has made over the last couple of minu tes. I will try to resist the te mptation to give my speech of yesterday, except to tell the press that I was right.

The Ministe r stil l believes tha t there is an NDP media conspiracy out here, or out there, and I can only suggest that you will report him, you will report him accurately, fairly, unbiased, smilingly , and wi th glee. Obviously it is a sore point wi th the Minister tha t the facts are becoming public, that the people of this province are having an opportuni ty to understand exa ct ly what it is that is happening in this province.

And they do understand , we know th at, and they are not being fooled by the convincingly, or supposedly convincingly, hopefully convincingly stat ements of how things are improving so much. I was saddened a bit, Mr. Chairperson, by the Minister's in itial opening re marks about the duck hunt and the scene that he drew, one of confront a tion. He was setting the st age for these Fst i mates. He was setting the st age for these next few months in this Legislature which is something that I had said yeste rday , it's going to be a rough session.

And as I had mentioned to th e Speaker at that ti me, I was concerned th at he sat bet wixt and bet ween this bubbling boiling storm , and wished him well. I do indeed, Mr. Chairperson, share the sa me concerns for your honourable position and do indeed also wish you well and hope and know that if you operate in the manner in which you have operated over the past number of sessions that rve had the privile ge of speaking in this committee wit h you as Chairperson, I know that things will go we ll. You have a re markable capacity to smooth the wate rs when at ti mes we do churn a bit too much in here.

The Minister mentioned about his first, his govern ment's first, the new init iatives, as if these were ideas that the Ministe r was sitting bac k and all of a sudden came to him. He talked about lead.

We ll, if the Minist er will take the ti me to reme mber and if he can't re member, if the Minister will take the ti me to check the record , he will know; and if he is honest in his assess ment, he will tell us that much of what happened in the lead-us ing industries in this province in the last two years, came as a result of prodding and pushing from this side of the House and from the workers involved in that industry who have gone up against the Ministe r and the y have not found him an obliging person, Mr. Chairpe rson.

They have not found him to be convincingly on their siae ana want ing to work to rid the province of this lead poisoning crisis as qui ckly and efficiently and as effective ly as one would have hoped. I know that and you know that, Mr. Chairperson, be cause you sat through those many long questi on periods and hours of debate in this House where we pulled the Minister, dragging, kicking, screa ming and clawing all the way into what little action his govern ment did take.

And then, many ti mes it was not the proper action, but in certain instances they did take the proper action and for that I co mmend the Minist er. The Minister has, and let me be to tally fair in this, the Ministe r has brought forth some init iatives and some of th em have been w<X'kable, and some of th em have been good init iat ives, and I would hope tha t he wo uld continue along that pat h ra ther than having to wai t for us to push and prod, and push and prod, because qu ite frankly, Mr.

Chairperson, there are many ot her hazards out there , w<X'kplace hazards, which the Ministe r well knows, and has made reference to in the Throne Speech, that I would like to get about to discussing. - 367 -

5 March, 1980 One of them of course is asbest os. And again, it is as if a brainst sorm st ru ck the Ministe r. One da y he was si tting there and he said, Oh, my goodness, we have an asbes tos problem in this province. And then he we nt out and developed a program. Well, that is not how it happened, Mr. Chairperson, that is not how it happened at all. And again, dragging, kicking, screa ming, clawing all the way, we dragged the Minister into imple menting something. I re member having to go out to the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 supp ly facilit y.

I reme mber very well what was happening there and what had been happening for near on a year in regard to the asb est os there. And it wasn't until after th at, after there was a great deal of public pressure exe rt ed , after there was a grea t deal of pressure exerted by the wor kers in that facility and their union, and after there was a great deal of pressure exer ted by the NDP official opposition tha t anything substantia l was done. It was not until that happened that we had progress. And the Mine Safety Review Committee, Mr.

Chairperson, I am cer tain you rem e mber tha t the Mine Safety Review Committee was as a result of sugges tions from the Thomp:;on Local of the Steelworkers, Local 61 66, a Local of which the Mini ster is a former member ..• --{Inte rje ction)-- Forme r president , and the Ministe r of Govern ment Services has asked me to sit down, on his way through the Chambers. I assure him th at I will be sit ting and st anding and sitting and standing throu ghout these debates and I will try to do the best job that I can on behalf of the wcrk ing people of this province and my consti tuents.

But back to the point of the Mine Safety Review Committee which does affect my consti tuents very much because a lot of th em are miners; and it came as a result of prodding, not to this Minister originally but to the previous Ministe r of Labour, the first Ministe r of Labour under the new Progressive Conservative govern ment; from the unions, the unions in the nort h, 5757 in Lynn Lake , 81 44, the Flin Flon Local.

They wanted tha t review committee because some things were happening in that industry, and are st ill happening in that industry because tha t review committee did no t change one single problem tha t the y are experiencing. It can be an essential part of making changes that are necessary bu t the review committee, the fact tha t members of this committee who were doing a ca pable and honest job, I believe ; we nt from community to communit y and list ened and took notes and are making a final report now I ho pe, did not change anything.

The changes will have to come after the Minister and after we receive th at repor t; and then it is up to the Minist er to make the changes tha t are necessary based on the recommendatio ns tha t arise from that report. And I am cer tain th at he will and I will encourage him to do so because he is not a bad Ministe r, Mr. Chairperson. I don't think any of us in these Cha mbers, if I can, you know, make that value judgment, are not doing the best that we can, given the circu mstances. You know, circu mstances place us on differen t sides of the House so he does things differently than I do.

As a government Mi nist er he takes cer ta in courses of action; as an opposition member, a backbencher at that, I take certai n courses of ac tion. But we are wcrk ing on behalf of our consti tuents, our consti tuencies, and the province, and in this speci fic instance I hope on behalf of the working people of the province. We have differen t ideals, different ideologies, different philosophies on how and what to do and that's wherein lies the conflict and that's why this House is divided into two sides, but we are both doing what we can.

So I'm cer tain when the Minist er receives that report he will talk to his Cabinet colleagues, he will talk to the govern ment caucus and he will talk to the working people also, the miners , the unions, and he will try to come up wit h a course of action that is appropriat e. And we will, I hope we will, provide him wi th suggest ions and encouragement to take the proper, what we consider to be the proper , courses of ac tion. And I hope that we will live up to our responsibility to cri ticize him when we feel he is taking the wrong course of action. I know we will att e mpt to do that.

Bu t that Mine Safet y Review Co mmittee, Mr. Chairper son, ca me not as a brainstorm of that Ministe r er a brainstorm of that government side , it came because there was a very real need for it and it ca me at the prodding of the New De mocrat ic Party Opposition. I re member myself asking several quest ions in this House, and pushing and prodding and writing the ne cessary le tters, wcrk ing in conjunction and co-operat ion with the wcr king people who wer e most affected , or can be most affected , if there are substantial rec ommendati ons that come frQ[ll th l!t report and. they are implemented.

So let us have a clear picture before us of the process of what happened. And then the Minist er mentions another brand init ia tive, the Wor kers Co mpensation Review. A bi t of history again. The Worke rs Compensa tion Review was a review of the entire wcrk ers compensation program promised to us by the Minister. That is what it was - 36 8-

5 March , 1980 supposed to be and th at is what we had expected and th at is what was wanted in many instances, Mr. Chair person. What we got instead , and the Hansard is very clear on this, it's a matter of record, the Minist er promised us a full review. It was in the Labour Relations Committee Roo m tha t he promised us tha t review , because it's necessary . Workers co mpensation is a syste m that has been around in its present form for a long long ti me.

Society has changed , the needs of workers ha ve changed , the needs of injured workers have changed, and ther efore, we must constantly, as we must wit h all our programs, policies and legislation, update them to meet the changing ti mes. And so the full re view was nece ssary; it was desired in many instances, but it was not forthco ming. What we have is a review to examine certain procedures of the Workers Compensation Board; and we can go into that in more detail under the appropriat e item in the Esti mates, I am cert ain we will.

But I want to point out tha t even in speak ing about that init iative the Minister is not giving us an accur ate picture of what went on. I was pleased to hear the Minist er talk about bridging the gap between schooling and working.

You know, it's too bad that we as working people - and I know the Minist er or I would assume the Minist er agrees with me - as working people, when we leave our school to go to our plants or the industries where we work, that we not only liter ally leave our school, but th at we leave our school in the sense that we no longer are part of tha t valuable institution - and I am glad the Ministe r of Education is here - that valuable institu tion th at has been so much a part of our format ive years.

And I hope the Minister, and I am ce rtain he has in mind, working wi th his colleague, the Minister of Education, of sort of bringing that opportunity, that access, to go back to that schooling, to constan tly im prove ourselves as working people; I hope he has programs and policies, I am certain he does and I congratulate him on that, in mind towards that purpose, tha t honourable and tha t long overdue purpose. And it's especially important in these days of declining enrol ment. You know, we have, if I can as a subtle aside for the moment, we have a kneejer k reaction.

We have it and the y have it - I'm not p lacing any speci fic blame anywhere - tha t when we see an enrolment decline we say, th at's it, close the school, lay off the teac hers, tha t building , because it's not filled by students, young students, is no longer a valuable bu ilding to our society. We have to start ret hinking that. We have to start saying, how can we ut ilize that? Working people want educ at ion, working people want to be tter the mselves , they feel in many instances torn from the syste m when they enter the workforce from the schooling arena.

So let us try to examine - I hope to have some fairly det ailed discussions with both Ministers responsible - let us try to exa mine avenues in which we can use those school buildings that are left vacant because of declining enrol ment. We can use the facilities; we can use the teac hers to educate our entire society. That's some thing tha t we will talk about. I congrat ulate the Minister on his rec ognition of the problem, and I look forward to those conversa tions.

The Minist er - and again we're not getting the full statistics again - the Minist er said that his colleague re fut ed the statisti cs, ably and capably and the press didn't report him and that we really we."e a bad government, they really are a grea t govern ment - and he said the unem ployment figures for November and Dece mber are , and then he spoke about, the m in glowing te rms. Well, he didn't ment ion January bu t we have the figures for January. Why didn't he mention Jan uary ?

Because unemployment is back up again in Ja nuar y and that's just an example of the selective use of st at isti cs that we are going to have to deal wit h and that we are dedicated , on this side, to trying to combat, to try and paint the total pict ure , as,l said yesterday, so that we at least know of what we are talking in full deta il. And the Ministe r menti oned tha t we should not be concerned about population growth as much as we have been. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have an

article here from the Tribune, August 12 , 1979, when obviously the press were st ill quoting the Minister, and it says that "M ac Master to Study Manitobans Exodus." Le t us see what the Minister said about population growth at that ti me. He said he was concerned there were many people leaving the province. He was concerned then and he's concerned now. I know he's concerned because th at's a concern of his, as Minister; it's a res ponsible concern and I congratu late him for that concern.

Bu t let us not try now to downplay the problem; let us not try now to say that to hide our heads in the sand and say tha t there is no problem. There is a problem. We must discuss that problem; we must discuss it rat ionally and fully. We must look at again the to tal picture, and we will. So that's so met hing else we 'll be doing in the Esti mates because the Ministe r said that there was a st udy, and of course we'll want to know the re sult s of that study and how much it costs and those sort of de tails tha t one examines during the Esti mat es procedure. - 369 -

5 March, 1980 The Minister talks about the 24,0 00; I believe th at's the correct figure, 24,000 jobs full ti me - excuse me, not full ti me - the 24,000 permanent jobs he talks about. Yeste rday I told you, Mr. Chairperson, and I told you for a rea son because I think it is a pertinent point, 6,000 of those 24,000 were pa rt -ti me. A full qua rte r of the m were part-ti me jobs.

I want to talk about the effect that that has on the economy during the Fst i mates. rm certain the Ministe r does too, because I know he, too, is concerned tha t there are so many part- ti me jobs being crea ted now and what impact th at will have on the to tal wage structure of the province. So we will discuss that. Again, the First Minister the ot her day accused this side of trying to turn a "q uick tr ick" - I think tha>e we re his words. I may st and corre cted , but tha t was the intent of his accusations.

That we WE'!'e in some way deceiving, or misleading or not fully rep rese nting the case as it should be. Well, the Ministe r today showed us exactly how his govern ment has been at te mpting to do that because he talks about the industr ial climat e under his govern ment, the labour rela tions climate.

Again, I feel that it is absolut ely necessary that I rei terate one of the st at istics that I gave yeste rday and that is tha t under the full two years of his govern ment we had the worst rec ord compared to any tw o-year per iod - and I don't care how you slice the cake - co mpared to any two-year period under the NDP ad minist ration, the worst record in comparison of number of work days lost due to stri kes and lockouts - two years, if we compare the to tal pictu re. We will do tha t again and again and again.

I am pleased to hear that the Minist er is proceeding on the Advisory Council on the Sta tus of Women. I don't know under whi ch item in the Fsti mates we'll discuss that. Perhap; it will be very shortly under the Wo men's Bureau, bu t we do intend to discuss that. I think that I personally sup port the init iat ives that are made in order to incorp orate women more fully into the social and into the industrial fabric of this community called Manit oba. I think that is an area tha t is ri ght fully being addressed by the Minister, and I think that's an area that i;x-ogress and substantial i;x-ogress is needed.

I can only wish and hope and try to encourage the Ministe r that his Aavisory Council will be substan tial progress in this re gard, and th at we will do also. And rm not cer tain whether I caught the Minist er's st at ement exac tly right so per hap; I'll just ask him ifh e can nod. Can he say tha t when you re move the - and I'll have to refer to my Fst i mates Book here, one moment please - when you re move the municipal loan categ ory from the Fsti mates, tha t there is actua lly a $500,000, or one-half million dollar more allotme nt to the Labour and Manpower division as per las t year.

Is that a correct .•• ? Okay. Look, I did some qui ck figuring and it would seem to me that tha t would not amount, Mr. Chair man, to an increase th at would keep up wit h the inflation ra te, overall. In other words, tha t if you take tha t increase as a percentage of the total budge t last year and, while it may indeed be an increase, increases are supposed to enable a department to continue to grow, to exp and until it reaches its maximum efficiency and maxim um effect iveness, to be able to do more things for the people.

And if we have that basic as sump tion in mind then we have to hope that the increases keep up wi th the rate of inflation. So that, too, is some thing tha t we will want to discuss in more detail. The Minister was short in his re marks, and I believe th at it is only appropriate, having addressed myself to so me of wha t he said, that I cla>e after these few brief re marks by saying that I don't believe it is necessary to set up a confronta tion here. I don't believe that it is necessary to se t the st age for a duck hunt , or for a hunt of any sort. I think tha t we can work toge ther.

I think we have the same objectives in mind. We are going to qu arrel, that is for cert ain. We are going to argue, tha t is for certa in.

Bu t I hope that as we quarrel and as we argue that we are doing so - and as we agree because we are going to agree also on certain things and that, too, is important - but I hope as we continue tha t i;x-ocedure of trying to put forth what we believe to be correct and they trying to p.it forth wha t the y believe to be corre ct , tha t we do so in suc h a manner as to always be working in the best interests of the working people of this i;x-ovince because th at is the Minister's goal, I know it . I know it. We disagree on how to do it and we will disagree in many instances.

And it is my goal; I hope the Min ister respects that also. So having said tha t and hopefully having toned down the confrontat ion a bit and set the st age for what I consider to be a very important discussion in this Legislature, I will at that point, Mr. Chairperson, thank you for the opportu nity for these few words and allow the Fst i mates to i;x-oceed in th eir normal manner. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. - 370 -

5 March , 1980 MR . GR EEN: Mr. Chair man, rd like to make some opening rema rks with regard to the Esti mates of the Ministe r of Labour as well. In doing so I would certainly like to confirm some of t he things tha t have been said by the Me mber for Ch urch ill wit h regard to some of the background of the ulti mate thrus ts tha t the Minister of Labour has taken .

I don't think th at anybody except a person who is deaf, dumb and blind, would fail to rec ognize that some of the initiatives, wi th respect to lead , came as a result of the New Democrati c Party position in the Legislature - and let us be qu ite specific - came as a re sult of the init iatives tha t were taken by the Me mber for Churchill.

I don't think th at anybody could fail to acknowledge that Workplace, Saf ety and Health was a concept tha t was pursued by the previous Ministe r of Labour, the Honourable Russ Paulley, indeed against some very st rong objections taken by me mbers of the opposit ion, and I'm not even going to fault the objections. I tell my friend, the Minist er of Labour , th at I do not begr udge him that. It is the luxury of a government to be able to take credi t for the things that it does regard less of where the initia tion ca me from.

I don't think anybody will argue wit h the fact that a comprehensive universal medical care program came to Canada because of the initiative of Tommy Douglas. Bu t the Liberals in Ottawa correctly say that we brought about national medicare. I think that it's hardly wi thout argument tha t the New Democra ti c Party - the small group in Parliament - were the major force that brought about Petr oCan. And the Liberals not only say tha t the y brou ght about PetroCan but did something which I wish we would do more often: They fought the last federal election on the basis of public ownership, Mr. Chair man.

Public ownership, their major progra m was PetroCa n . We ll, Mr . Chair man, the Me mber for St . James has no imagination as to how to build an address. It is re levant, Mr. Chairman, because this Minister is able to pride himself - and I say properly s� it would be more my problem if he ignored everything that was said on the ot her side and listened only to his friends - because, Mr.

Speaker, the congratulation that I have for this parti cular Minist er - and I don't know how long rm going to be able to do it - is tha t he listened to what was being said on this side of the House; tha t he made cert ain move ments and th at he resist ed, as the plague, the people who are in the Chamber of Commerce, the people who are in the Builde rs' Exchange and thooe people in his own party who would have foisted on him some of the antiqu ated type of labour relation laws that we expe rienced be fore 1969.

And if it need be said th at he has done that and th at he gets up and wishes to present a brave front, I am not going to begrudge him that, Mr. Cha irman , as long as he continues to do that. And may I fur ther say that I don't expect th at he will move every ti me in the direction that is pursued , ei ther by the Honourable Me mber for Churchill or ot her people in this party , or even the Manitoba Federation of Labour, that I don't expect he should do that bu t, Mr.

Chairman, thus far - and I maybe shouldn't make tha t quali fication but being so mewhat par tisan, as I am known to be, I will say th us far he has resisted those peopl e who thought that the y had a ri ght to expect that when the Conservat ives came into power everyt hing would be turned topsy-turvy. And, Mr. Chairman, th ose people exist on both sides and your cour age in resisting th em speaks to your favour, Mr. Chairman.

I say wi th conscious anticipa tion tha t the same kind of courage will have to be displayed by a New Democratic Party with regard to the efforts that are made by people who think the y have a right to expect certain directio ns because a parti cular gover nment is in power. And that, Mr. Chairman, will be the subject of much of what I have to say during the Labour Esti mat es. The Minister has resisted, Mr. Chair man, bringing in vir tually any labour legislation.

I don't re member amendments to The Labour Relations Act during the tw o sessions of the Legislature and I ex pect that we will not be having any during this session, of any consequence. And if that is so, Mr.

Chairman, then wha t we will have achieved in the Province of Manitoba, as distinct from most provinces, by the way, we will have achieved a posi tion whereby the govern ment has taken a non-interventio nist role in industrial disput es; have more or less, and mostly more - but there are still some exceptions which we will have to accept res ponsibility for just as you have the m now - have accepted the fact that free collective bargaining, that freedom of action on the part of the employee, that freedo m of acti on on the part of the em ployer, is the bes t road to indus trial stabili ty.

That was the philosophy of the New Democrati c Part y gove rn ment, when in power. That philosophy got us into some difficulty wi th people who thought that we were supposed to do everything that perhaps an organized group of trade unionists wanted. And, Mr. Chair man, that is the philosophy that we had the courage to resist. And I say tha t as long as the - 371 -

5 March , 1980 Honourable Minister does that kind of thing, then the kind of re marks that he has been able to make wit h respect to the labour rela tions this year, he will be able to make in the future. I don't know how long he is going to be able to resist that kind of i;x'essure. I know what th e Cha mber of Commerce is propooing wi th re gard to changes in the Labour Relations Act; I know that the Bu ilders' Exchange has certain ideas as to what this governm ent is supposed to do. And let us not fool ourselves, the st rike that was caused in the construction industry last year was a political st rike, Mr.

Speaker. For years the constru ction industry thought tha t the New Democrati c laws, and parti cularly their laws which brought about freedo m in the province of Manitoba, wer e going to be undone when the Conservatives came into power; and the strike, Mr. Chair man, was caused by obtuse bargaining on the part of the heads of the constru ction industry , one head in particu lar, who said tha t if he have this st rike, we will ge t those laws. And he was beat, Mr. Chairman, properly so.

And if the Minist er was able to resist that type of pressure from the Builde rs' Exchange, if he is able to continue to resist that type of i;x'essure from th e Chamber of Commerce, if he is able to do what he did last year in the House afte r getting himself tangled in his own web on th e resolu tion wi th respect to the right to work, where finally it was the Conser vatives who ca me out and tr ied to out-free the New Democra ts.

Because the last proposal tha t my honourable friend made was th at we agree with every form of union securi ty, which included a closed shop, which we actua lly don't have in the province of Manitoba. We do not have a perm ission for collective agree ment to be entered into which says tha t you cannot hire anybody unless he is a member of a particu lar union. If that's the direction tha t my honourable friend is going to, then I think - I said to him last year that, Mr. Chairman, I will have no difficulty in congratulating tha t direction.

I will congratulate tha t direction if it's taken by Conservatives, I will congrat ulat e it if it 's taken by a New De mocrat. I won't congrat ulate if it 's taken by a Liberal because I know no Libera l will take tha t direction. Liber als feels that there are always laws that you can set up as to when a per son can picket, where he can picket, where he should go, wh ere he can't go. Mr. Speaker, it has always been the Liberals who in troduced such laws. . My friend, the Me mber for Fort Rouge, sa ys that Mackenzie King was a Liberal, or was he not a Liberal. I've always heard, Mr.

Chairman, I've always heard wi th regard to Mackenzie King that he was the qu intessence of Liberalis m. As a matter of fact Fr ank Underhill gave me an enti rely new concept which I could never have conceived of myself, he said that Mackenzie King su cceeded in making the Liberal Party the party of the ext reme centre. Now we always knew, Mr. Chairman, tha t there is an ext re me left; we always knew and talk about it qu ite flippantly about an extr eme right ; but the not ion that the centre was an extr eme is some thing tha t we have all avoided. But the cent re, Mr. Chairman, is an extreme.

The centre is an ext reme and it is a fact that Mackenzie King made the Liberal Par ty the party of the ext re me cent re. And all of those laws which relate to compulsory cert ific ation, wi th compulsory conciliation, wi th when you can stop work, when you cannot st op work, when the public interve nes, how the public interve nes, were brought about and re mained essent ially the Mackenzie King school of indust rial relations. Some thing, Mr. Chair man, which he st arted to form ulate when he worked for Mr. Rockerfeller, there's our old friend Mr.

Rocker feller again, who had hired Mack enzie King to do this type of thing. -{Interje ction)- Mr. Chair man, the world may be new but the Liberals are the sa me. The world may be new but the Liberals are the same. We ll, Mr. Chair man, during the debates we will give you a chance to show your adherence to freedom. I know, Mr. Chair man, tha t when the resolu tions wi th regard to freedom, wi th regard to a right to a trade unionist - and it was never de manded for a trade unionist. I saw, Mr.

Chairman, in my years in practice between 1955 and 1966, tha t there was only group of people that were prevented from walking down the st reet wit h a sign saying that they don't happen to like a certain condition, and if you didn't like people killing seals you could walk down with a sign saying, "Save th e Seals.'' You can walk in front of st ores selling seal coats and say, "Don't buy these coats." But if conditions in a facto ry were terrible and hu man beings WE!'e being affected, and you wanted to walk in front of a st ore saying, "Don't buy these coats," because you want to be fair to hu man be ings ra ther than to seals, the em ployer went out and got an injunction, and he got them and he got them in this province.

And we eliminat ed the ability to get tha t kind of injunction, as well as the kind of injunction, Mr. Chairman, which we now see has put a responsible, productive, use ful, conscientious, family man never guilty of any cri minal offence, which sees today behind bars because he would not be a labour boss; because he would not say to people, "You must work - 372 -

5 March , 1980 because parlia ment say s you should work." So , we see Mr. Parrot in jail, Mr. Chair man, for no crime whatso ever, no cri me whatsoever. His cri me was tha t he wouldn't be a slave driver, that he wouldn't say to people, and parlia ment said we need you to tell them, "that you are to WCX'k or else go to jail," and Mr. Parrot said he wouldn't do it. Well, Mr. Chair man, thank God that there are st ill some people in our societ y who will say that I will not yield to every single law that has been passed.

Bec aiJse once society says that the law is the law and I will dO what ever the legislators say I will do we will have destroyed freedom in this country , Mr. Chairman. FreedOm depends on the legislators who are seeking power and will use it to the hilt, if they are allowed to, depends always on somebody saying, "Y ou pass that law and honest people will go to jail to resist it ." And, Mr. Chairman, that's what happened in the United States.

The war in Vi etnam ended because people said, "You can pass such a law, I will not obey it," and if one needs, you know, substan tial au thority for that proposition then I'd have to tell you, Mr. Chair man, that Mr. Jus tice Bra ndites of the Supreme Court of the Unit ed States said that if there was a law saying that I have to go to the back of the bus, I will break tha t law. This is not the st ate ment of a violent man; it is not the st atement of someone who says that he will not be bound by de mocratic au thority; it is a stat ement of a resp onsible person, and such responsible persons are needed.

Thank God, Mr. Chair man. I wish I di dn't invoke the holiness like - I'm taking after the Prime Minister now. I will have to say, thank us all. Thank socie ty generally, Mr. Chairman, that there have been people who have been willing to say that. And probably the best example of it was when Hitler invaded Denmark he said th at all people of Jewish ancestry would have to wear a yellow Star of David on their arm , and the King of Denmark the next day rode into the st ree ts wi th the Star of David on his arm. That's courage, Mr. Chairman, and that's what's needed in this field as we ll as any ot her field.

And what we will need, Mr.

Chairman, in the area of labour relations - rm going to pursue it in qu ite a bit more detail during the course of the Est imates - but what we need is the courage to say that freedom has it s problems, freedom has it s responsibilities, bu t freedo m and liberty is st ill the best way of achieving indust rial st abilit y; and that the consciousness of one side of tha t equation, that is the em ployer's side, to know th at the employees are free; and the consciousness of the employees to know that their em ployer is free, will have the kind of effect on both of the m whi ch will cause the m, Mr.

Chair man, to have much less breakdowns than if eit her of th em believe that if we need help there is some polit ic ian, there's some labour board, there's so me government , there's some ju dge, there's some mediat or who's going to come to our side of this disput e and do the other side in. Th at's what causes bad industrial rela tions, Mr. Chairman. And I will prove it to you by qu oting st at isti cs from Australia where compulsory arbitrat ion over the last years has produced the most man hours lost as a result of indust rial disputes, not the least. MR.

CHAIR MAN: The hour being 4:30, Privat e Me mbers' Hour , committee rise. Call in the Speak er . The Chair man reported upon the Commi ttee' s delib erat ions to Mr. Speaker and request ed leave to sit again. IN SE5SIO N MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Radisson. MR . KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Me mber for Dauphin, that the report of the Committee be rece ived. MOTION presented and carried. PRIVATE MEMBE RS' HOUR MR . SPE AKER: The first it em of business on Wedne sday is Orders for Re turn that have been transferred for debate. We have none of those.

The second one is bills; we have none of those so we 're now on Resolutions. Resolut ion No. 1. The Honourable Member for Inkster. - 373 -

5 March , 1980 MR . GR EEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, se conded by the Honourable Me mber for Burrows that: 1.

WH EREAS public reven ues required for public purposes should be raised by means whi ch are ad minist rat ively efficient and which affect the citizen in rela tion to his/her ability to pay, and WH EREAS governm ent sponsored lotteries offend against these i:rinciples, and that the costs of raising re venues are inordinately high, the methods are cu mbersome and there is no at temp t to ensure th at there is ability to pay, and WHE RE AS in utilizing lotte rie s for the collection of public revenue the govern ment engages in processes which are destructive in th at it inspires false hopes and get -ri ch-qui ck-wit h-no-effort ideals, and WH EREAS wat hwhile public activities, su ch as theatres, sports, the ar ts and cultural endeavours should not have to de pend for their exis tence on such a negati ve form of public su pport, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVE D that th e Government of Manit oba give considerat ion to the advisability of spearheading the elimina taion of govern ment-s ponsored lotteries as a means of raising public revenues.

Mr . Speaker, there are two typographi cal errors which I had not noticed up until now, rm almost certain they are typograph i cal. In the second line of the resolved portion it says, "Give council," it should be give consider ation to the advisability, and in the first paragraph, where it says should be "reused", it should say be raised . MR. SPE AKER: I accept the responsibility for the typographic al errors and the corre ct ions will be in fact used in th e resolution. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkst er . MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I did not plan to force myself on the House for this length of ti me in a row. I assure you that my being here immediately after the discussion on the Esti mat es is the luck of the draw , it had not hing to do wi th any position on my part. Now, Mr. Speaker, the resolut ion standing before you is a rat her simple one and I ad mit , Mr. Speaker, it doesn't do a great deal im mediately , first of all because a priva te member effectively move a resolution which will re move a sourse of public revenue. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, that I am aware tha t the public involvement in lotte ries , both at the i:rovincial and federal levels, have gone beyond what anybody would have expected would take place when the original sin was engaged in, and I say that, Mr. Speaker , not with reference to any morality about lotteries as such. Bu t members of the House may rec all in 1969, I believe it was the su mmer session of '69, tha t a resolution was introduced on which there was a free vote. And at the ti me of the introduction of that resolution, Mr .

Speaker, everybody was assured , this is a one-ti me, one-effort lotte ry , don't worry it's not going to expand, it 's not going to go beyond this one effort, one lottery, for the purpose of having one sort of game, one mad fling. But, Mr. Speaker, it became habitual and the next year a re solut ion was in troduced by the govern ment, and the govern ment, of which I was a member, set up a sy ste m whereby the public could obtain revenue by the means of lotteries. And, Mr .

Speaker, for th ose who say that I am comp letely a person without comi:romise, that I will not move my position, whi ch I have heard it said, I got up in the House on that occasion and said that I do not agree wit h th is resolution, I do not agree wit h this position; I'm going to vote for it because I cannot conceive of me leaving a government on this issue where we are going to raise, in a lotte ry, one-twe ntie th of one percent of sales tax. And by the way, Mr.

Speaker, so that you know whi ch of the argu ments were pushed hardest, I was told 1t was passed by the convention of the New Democratic Party and re presents their policy; and are you going to break wi th the policy of the New Democratic Party? And I said, yes, there may be some day that I will, but not on this issue, not on this issue. And if you will go and read the speec h you will see tha t thats exa ct ly what I said. And we brought in a provincial lottery. And since then, Mr.

Speaker, and I don't th ink th at possibly we wer e the only ones, bu t right throu ghout the country this form of raising public revenues has been made more and more a part of our social fabric, and it is mostly our social fabric. - 374 -

5 March, 1980 Mr . Speaker, let me first of all make one point clear. I am not opposed to lotteries; I am no t opposed to people engaging in a, what do they call it, a Grey Cup pool; I am not opposed to a club selling raffles. I know enough about human nature to know that this is going to be done and that there is no law that can stop it. If you try to stop it all you will do is make it cri minal, you will not st op it . What I am opposed to, Mr . Speaker, is the public usmg this form of activity to raise public revenues. And I am opposed to it, Mr.

Speaker, for all of the reas ons in which the question of taxation is discussed and considered as to what are the good methods of taxation. Now first of all, Mr. Speaker, it is generally believed, alt hough it 's tough to argue wit h the Conserva tives about it, tha t taxa tion should be fair, it should be equi table, and some people go further and say it should be based of abilit y to pay. I think we will all agree that the lotte ry has no re ference to fairness or eqmty in terms of raising public reve nue. It is, who do you happen to get to be able to bu y a lottery ticke t?

And that may have absolutely no rela t ion to that person's res ponsibility to contribute to the public revenues of society. Indeed I think it probably works the reverse but I don't even have to go that far, I think I can prove to you that ith as no rela tionship. Taxation should be efficient, Mr. Speaker . Wha t I mean by that is that the amount th at it costs to collect the tax should not dest roy the tax. If you are spending all the money in administrat ion then you get very little of it in public revenues and you have gone about a wast e ful form of raising money.

There is no more waste ful form of raising money , there is no more expensive form of rais ing money than lotter ies, Mr. Speaker. Imagine the thousands of people tha t are runn ing around spending efforts , labour, se lling lottery tickets. To re tur n what, Mr. Speaker? To ret urn to public revenues - and you know, we are so bashful about it we don't even show i t on the revenue side; we put it into a trust fund. The amount that the Departme nt of Touris m and Cu lt ural Affairs gets to distribute, that comes into consolidated reve nues, is $3,8 00,000 at most, $3,800 ,000 in a year. And, Mr .

Speaker, I have been referring to the amount as being one-twe ntie th of one percent of sales tax , one-tw entie th of one percen t of sa les tax . Well, I'm wrong, Mr. Speaker, you know, some of us are wrong from ti me to ti me. It's one-fifteent h of one percent sales tax. The amount is $3,800 ,000, the amount that goes into public revenues. I checked it today, I checked it today , $3,800, 000.00. Sales tax produces $60 million for every point of sales tax. Four is one-fifteent h of 60 , so it's one-fifteent h of one percent of sales tax . And that may have been a good year.

It used to be one-twent iet h of one percent of sales tax. Mr. Speaker, just think of the cost of producing one-tw entie th of one percent of sales tax co mpared wit h producing $300 million which is the sales tax; or, what if you wanted to produce the $4 million by a motor vehi cle tax? It is one cent, Mr. Speaker, one cent produces roughly $4 million in gasoline tax. The cost of adding one cent to the motor vehicle tax is to get the same money would be hardly measurable, it would be hardly measurable; and all of that money, Mr.

Speaker, all of that ti me, all of that effort, all of those activi ties, are run around for the produc tion of tha t amount of money . Mr. Speaker, there is a more significant, if we want to get out of the area of tec hnocracy and go into the area of wha t kind of values should society be inducing in it s citize ns. Did I say that the st ate is performing a very very negative role in dealing wit h society at ti tudes ? Do we believe that people should be enco uraged to invest a dollar and make a million dollars?

Do we believe that people should be induced to say that, I'm going to get rich quick by bu ying a lotte ry ti cket? Now I'm not saying that people won't think that. Should the function of the st at e be to make that type of at ti tud e pervad e in societ y, because th at's what we are doing, Mr. Speaker, and we are doing it in the most ne farious way . If the Combines Invest igations Branc h would look to lottery a tti tu des, to lottery advertising, the way they look to priva te sector advertising, to business advertising, they'd fine them all . If a st orekeeper , Mr .

Speaker, adVertised reg ular price, and this has happened, and they found out tha t it was never so ld at that price even if the storekee per said he was going to sell it at that price, he would be (X'Osecuted. Bu t you go on telev ision and say that it's Winsday, I'm next , knowing the odds, Mr. Speaker , not telling the public that the odds are millions to one, is a form of false adVert ising which the Combines Inves ti gations Act would prosecute if it was anybody el<;e except the public who was doing it.

And the standards tha t have been set by the Combines Investiga tions Branch for this type of prosecu tion, in ter ms of advertising, if the y apply to the businessman they should apply, Mr. Speaker, to the gover nment. Bu t that's not the worst of it and that 's only really a debating point. The worst of it is tha t we are peddling this type of ge t ri ch qui ck att it ude , peddling it on the citize ns of our - 375 -

5 March, 1980 society, doing it consciously, Mr. Speaker, and doing it , why? Essentially because we've got no guts. Es>entially because we do not have the gumption to stand up and say, Mr. Speaker , th at there are cer tain very useful worthwhile organizations that perform a public role in our society that deserve to get public revenue for their support and that we will budget for them , we will ex amine the need, just as we do in the area of health, welfare, and education, we will fXJt a line in the Estimates and we will vote on that amount of money. But what we say, Mr. Speaker, is ''no".

The amount that these organizations are going to get, the amount that these act ivities will be allocated in terms of public re venue is going to depend on some type of numbers game, Mr. Speaker. And the analogy wit h the numbers game carries forward. Th ere are arguments about who should sell ti ckets where. <Ale could almost imagine the four bosses in Chicago saying, now don't you horn in on my terr itory, I won't horn in on your terri tory; and carving up the map as to who ge ts the lottery re venues, who gets the activities, from cer tain areas. This , Mr.

Speaker, is not the basis upon which public revenue should be obtained; this, Mr. Speaker, is not the basis upon which we should allocate funds to certa in organizations. And I want to make clear to the Minister who is dealing with this question that I have no objection to lotte ries as such. I even have no objection, Mr. Speaker, even though it's against my own parti cular direction, to regulation of lotteries, that if certain organizations who are not regarded by the public as people that you are going to deal with on the basis of budget - and we always dealt with it on the basis of budget when I was in Me tro.

Bu t you're not going to stop this type of thing but you feel that it should be re gulated so that you know that the prizes that are offered are given; so that you know that there is no improper practices engaged in, I'm not opposed to that. If my friend says that that has to be continued I'm not appealing in this resolution to avoid that. I'm talking about government-sponsored lotteries as a means of raising public revenues. And if we get out of that, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister wants to regulat e the others, I say that that's something that I would think we could live wit h, maybe we have to live with it.

Bu t in ter ms of rais ing public revenue by this type of activity, Mr. Speaker, maybe someone should show some leadershi p in tha t area; maybe this leadership should come from the Province of Manit oba; maybe if that leadership is shown it will end, Mr. Speaker, the kind of mushrooming of nu mbers game activitie s that are being engaged in by governments throughout Canada. And I pu t that {X'oposal to the hon ourable members in the hope that it will get their support. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I find myself in an unaccustomed position of opposing my old friend and colleague, the Honourable Member for Inkster, because it was in 1969 that, as a member of the government , backbencher at the ti me, that I was asked by the Manitoba Centennial Corporat ion to introduce a bill enabling lotteries to be established in the province. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my friend will give me an opportunity on a point of {X'ivilege. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster on a point of privilege. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The mistake in the typing is mine and not anybody else's.

That's the way the original araft went in. Sorry, I thought it was not mine. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, so that starting in 1969, and I gu ess again in 1971, when there was a vote on this issue as well, and now in 1980 I continue my posit ion in support of government lot ter ies. And the one question I would ask the Me mber for Inkster to clarify later on, when he's closing the debate, is to provide us with more evidence in terms of what he calls the administrative inefficiency, in ter ms of the administrat ion of lotter ies.

Because I am not aware of tre mendous inefficiencies and I would be inte rested in some evidence or indication in that regard, because it's always in order to tighten up and improve that administration. Mr. Speaker, I think that in essence, fundamentally, if I were to !Xlt one of my st ronger but perhaP> more colourful argu ments against this resolut ion and anyone who would support - 376 -

5 March , 1980 it, is that . to say all taxation should be of the reg ular variet y and that there should be no except ions to the sales taxes and the income taxes , and so on, is like saying tha t a tooth should be pulled wit hout an anesthetic; that by giving an anesthet ic to a person in a dental chair tha t one is depriving that person of feeling the !):I.in of the ext ract ion and tha t tha t should be a pure and und ilut ed privilege on the part of the pat ient. And to me, lotteries are simply a less painful method of feeling the pinch of taxa tion.

If we actually pass this measure and eliminated lotteries in Manit oba, then it seems to me that it might also be logical to ask tha t the sale of ot her provincial lotte ries or federal lot teries be banned wit hin the province because there is no doubt that the Wint ario lotteries would continue; that the west ern lo tte ries would continue; tha t the national lotte rie s would in fact continue. -{Interje ction)- We ll, exactly.

The Minister of Govern ment Services talks about the Irish Sweepstakes and the old Army and Navy. --{Inte rjectio n)-- That's ri ght , whi ch were very popular and widespread and if they're st ill around - I assume they are st ill around although they are not as common - would in fact result in their revival. I don't think that there are too many people who spend a grea t deal of money on lotteries.

I read of one man who was so silly as to sell his house and take the entire proceedings of a $50 ,000 house and pour it into a lotte ry, and then when he didn't really win anything he said he was very disappointed and he wasn't going to buy any more lotte ry ti ckets again. He felt that he was cheated after making su ch a ser ious investme nt in the procedure. Mr. Speaker, the manner in whi ch at ti tudes have changed in this re gard are qui te st riking. I en tered this House in 1966, but apparently in 196 1 there was a measure introduced in the Chamber to introduce lotter ies in some form in Manitoba.

And tha t measure was resoundingly defeated 50 to 3. In 1969 the vote on second reading was quit e close in this Chamber. It was 23 to 19, which showed so me close division but also showed that so me 15 members were st rangely absent when the crunch ca me. Upon third reading, however, it was much closer and the vote on third reading was 33 to 14 in favour of the introduct ion of lotte ries. And what the honourable member says is true.

He says that the original bill was sold on the basis of a one-shot deal and tha t was, in fact , the original intent; it was in fact the original idea th at it would only be in conjunction with the Centennial. Bu t the measure proved so popular, Mr. Speaker, wi th organizat ions and clubs, and wi th the citizens in par ti cular, that it simply was in fact extended right up and to the present date. I must say as well, that there was a point in ti me a few years ago when I thought that lotteries were becoming too frequent, or too common, in ter ms of the provincial government's involvement.

There was in fact, I think, at one ti me consideration given to a weekly lotte ry . I don't know if anything happened in that regard bu t I certainly was not in favour of an excessive proliferation of lotteries, and we did seem to reach that point. Now there see ms to be a ra tionalizat ion of lotteries and probably what we see today is what we're going to see for some ti me to come. I recall as well the dire predictions that were made by members of the Conservative Party in 1971. --{Inte rject ion)-- Yes, they were dire. And they were really qui te intrigu ing and I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that none of them came true. For exam ple, they seemed to fall into two categories at tha t ti me. There were tho