- _:, ______ --- Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MARCH 29, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 39

-·- March 29, 1976, Tape 1462, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Statements by Ministers. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, if I might I would like to rise to a point of privilege, and the point of privilege is to extend to the Minister of Mines and Energy my congratulations and, I believe, p~obably the congratulations of this House on his excellent performance on CBC on Thursday night. I enjoyed it itm~~ensely - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SMALLWOOD: - and so much indeed, Sir, that I felt uneasy, went and took medical advice and was told that I would probably get over it. MR. NF~Y: Is that why you had the accident yesterday? MR. SMALLWQOD: It might have had something to do with the accident too, I do not know. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my words of congratulations to that,because I helped the hon. gentleman and made him look-good by being with him, as he would be the first to say, and I would just like to say, Sir, that I appreciate this further evidence of the continuing coalition between the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) and the Tory Party, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think we will take it that the statements were with the full wish of the House. PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition that I would like to present, Sir, on behalf of thirty-nine residents at large, no particular spot, Sir, except that they are all in some way connected with Memorial University. These thirty-nine petitioners, Sir, are terribly concerned about the increases in electricity 3918

March 29, 1976, Tape 1462, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: rates. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is; "We the undersigned strongly object to any further increases in electricity rates." Mr. Speaker, I do not have to dwell at any length on the prayer of this petition. We have had so many over the past few weeks, Sir, I believe - I am not quite sure but I would say - MR. DOODY: You are ahead by far. HR. NEARY: Well, I am not concerned about.being ahead.

I am so far ahead that it is pathetic, But I am trying to figure roughly how many signatures I have presented in the last few weeks, and I believe, Sir, I am hitting close to 50,000. 50,000 signatures and addresses. MR. DOODY: And you have not touched Belvedere nor Mount Carmel. MR. NEARY: I have touched just about every place, Sir, because I have here people from Portugal Cove, Windsor Heights. From Gambo - MR. MURPHY: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and P.E.I. are next. MR. NEARY: - from St.

John's ·- where my hon. friend said that the people had better sense, they were not interested in electricity rate~, they were prepared to accept these - St. John's, Trans­ Canada Highway, Topsail Road, Long Harbour, Marystown and so on, Sir. Hr.

Speaker, the petition speaks for itself but there is one point 'that I have to make, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition and that is to say that the people of this Province are pretty disgruntled, pretty disillusioned and pretty disappointed that the politicians of this Province should try to pawn off their reaponsibility to the Public Utilities Board, to ask one regulatory body to regulate another government body, Sir, the people are prepare~not to accept that and they are opposed to it and they say that the power to control Newfoundland Hydro should be kept in this House, and not pawned off on the Public Utilities Board,as good as they may be.

March 29, 1976, Tape 1462, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: I have no doubt that Mr. Powell and members of that Board are outstanding Newfoundlanders but there is no way, Mr. Speaker, there is no way that the ordinary resident, the ordinary citizen of this Province can appear before that Board and argue that the government made political goofs, for instance, that the government - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hen. member is aware that we have had discussions in regard to the presentation of petitions in the recent past and I would just remind him that in commenting on the contents of the prayer he is required by the rules to keep closely to the text,or the meaning of the text, rather than enter into areas of debate. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I table the petition,Sir, I would like to merely point out to the P.C. Administration in this Province that their counterparts, the P.C.Opposition over in Nova Scotia,are raising the same point that I am raising in this hen.

Hous~ right now, that all the Government of Nova Scotia is doing by passing it off on the Public Utilities Board is shirking their responsibility and this government here is doing the same thing. It gives me great pleasure, Sir, to lay this petition upon the table of the House and ask that it be referred to the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, and to the Department to which it relates. I do hope that the minister will have a few words of comment to make on this petition. MR. SPEAKER: Are there futher petitions? The hen. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of three residents of St. Chads. The prayer of this petition is that the government undertake a programme to repair and upgrade the road in the community of St. Chads and the road leading to Eastport. The road from Eastport to St. Chads, Mr. Speaker, is a much used road, particularly in the summertime. This is the road that goes to Burnside which has the ferry dock for St. 3920

March 29, 1976, Tape 1462, Page 4 -- apb MR. LUSH: Brendan 1 s. This road is quite busy in the tourist season w'itb many tourists travelling in the area plus the ·traffic, of course, which goes to St, Brendan's. 'l'he road is used daily by school buses and by people who commute to and from work daily. The road is in a deplorable condition, Mr. Spe!!ker, causing great inconvenience and great discomfort to the residents. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this pet~tion and call upon the government to give serious attention to the prayer of the petition and do all they can to fulfill the wishes of the petition.

I ask to have this petition placed on the table of the Rouse and referre!l to the appropriate department. MR. SPEAKER: Are there further petitions? --REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR.. DOODY: Mi.". Speaker, I bave to table, Sir, the regulations undel! the Mining and Mineral Rights Tax Act of 1975. These are the annual tabling of the regulations. There are copies in the Speaker's office. 3921

March 29, 1976, Tape 1463, ?age 1 -- apb ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the han. the Minister of Justice, Sir. Would the minister inform the House if there is any way under existing laws whereby exhorbitant finders fees, bonuses and excessive interest rates charged by second mortgage companies and legal firms can be subject to the ~Unister of Justice and his department or to the laws of this Province, and if such money can be recovered and paid back to the homeowners?

Is there any way that can be done now under the present law? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am going to have to take that question as notice, obviously. The han. gentleman, I hope, does not expect me to give a legal opinion off the top of my head in response to that question. I would refer him to the Unconscionable Transaction Act,which he may find to be applicable, which is not

an Act administered by my department but

an Act which gives certain rights to people coming within that Act. The Unconscionable Transaction Act. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister, Sir. Would the minister tell the House if it is illegal to have what is called double disbursement sheets issued, one to the client and one to the mortgage company~ Is this legal or illegal in this Province? fofR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: ttR. NEARY: The hon. the Minister of Justice. I will take that as notice, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer given by the minister and I wish to debate it on Thursday coming. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: I am dissatisfied with the answer - MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry! The han, gentleman wishes - MR. HICKMAN: He is dissatisfied with the question. MR. ROBERTS: Well, if the hon. gentleman wishes to say he is 3922

March 29, 197n, Tape 1463, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: dissatisfied with the question that is something that the hon. minister better take up with his colleague the House Leader. My question, Sir, is for the House Leader in the continued absence of the Premier: Now that the Supreme Court has overturned the results of the third of the districts which '~ere contested by '['etition under the Election Act, could the minister tell us when the ministry intend to cause the necessary by-elections to be held so the House can come to full strenp;th?

HR. ~JELLS: It is impossible to give an answer to that question at this time, Mr. Speaker. As I recall it, one of these results have been referred, I think, to the Supreme Court of Canada, have they not? '111.. ROBERTS : No, no notice has been filed, no service has been served. MR. WELLi'l: I see. But in any case, in due course by-elections will be held and the Premier will announce the date. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the government House Leader, Sir: lvould the government House Leader, in the absence of the Premier, indicate to the House whether or not the Minister of Fisheries was reflecting provincial government policy when he sup;gested at a meeting on the mainland over the weekend - a Ministers of Fisheries meeting - that the government, Newfoundland, get out of ICNAF altogether? Was the Minister of Fisheries reflecting government policy in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the House Leader. MR. WELLS: I did not hear what the minister said.

I have heard something on the news but I think we have to be, you know, we have to be more accurate than that so I think we can take the question as notice and the ~inister of Fisheries will deal with it in due course. ~- W. CARTER: Mr. Sneaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point cf order has been raised. 3923

March 29, 1976, Tape 1463, Page 3 -- apb MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the question asked the House Leader concerns a meeting I attended, and in fact initiated, in Moncton on Friday. The purpose of that meeting was to discuss with my counterparts in the Atlantic Provinces the possibility of going to Ottawa with a joint,common position. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, what is the point of order? MR. CARTER: The point of order, Mr. Speaker,is that we did not.without qualification,suggest that Canada - MR.. ROBJiRTS : MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: Who pointed a finger? Well the han. member suggested it in his question. No,I did not.

I just asked the minister, the Acting Premier there, a question. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, maybe I could be - HR. NEARY: And I asked him if you spoke for the government. l>ffi. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, maybe I could be permitted just to - ~ffi. NEARY: No. No, unless we are going to have a debate. MR. MORGAN: They do not want the answer anyway. }1R. CARTER: Do you want to know what happened or do you not? l>ffi. SIMMONS: The minister is backing down. SOME RON. MEMBJiRS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: 'ffi. CARTER: fine! MR. ROBERTS: I do not care! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, if they do not want to hear what happened, You cannot have a point of order if everybody else is going to stand. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman was speaking on a point of order. Order, please! The han. the House Leader has raised - l>1R. WELLS : To the - MR. ROBERTS: He was on a point of order. 3924

March 2q, 1976. Tape 1464 RH - 1 ~m.. WELLS: \olell I am speaking to the point of order. MR . ROBERTS: He is speaking to it the same time. MR. HELLS: 1\Tell,he seems to have stopped for the moment, so I will speak to it,I guess. To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. memher would like to redirect his question to the minister involved I am sure that we would have no ob.1ection on this side of him doing so. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR . ROBERTS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The han. 111ember for St. }'ary 1 s-The Capes raised a point of order which either he knew to have been specious or ought to have known to have been specious. The gentleman from LaPoile(}!r. Neary) asked a question inviting the government House Leader to say whether or not a statement made by the Minister of Fisheries was a reflection of government policy. The Minister of Fisheries, obviously anxious to answer the question but not knowing how to do it,rose on a so-called point of order. Well, Sir, that is very much against the rules of the House. If the hon.

Minister of Fisheries wants to ansl~er the question he can do one of two things, either he can go outside the House and ask,or he can ask his colleague, the House Leader to let 'lim to yield and let the minister ask it. But, Sir, there is no point of order and the House should not be delayed by the ~linis ter of Fisheries who ought to know better. If he has not learned better, Sir, in his ten years in legislative bodies then, Sir, he ought to learn very quickly. t1R. SPEAKER : Order, please! May I respond to that point of order1 I think we would consider that a legitimate point of order has not been raised.

The hon. House Leader rose on a point of order, that was the point that was raised by the hon. Minister of Fisheries. The hon. Rouse Leader rose on a point of order. I think the sense of the discussion is that the House should indicate whether it is their wish that the hon. ~inister of Fisheries should now respond to the question asked by the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary). Is the permission of the House given? 3925

}larch 29, 1976. Tape 1464 RH - 2 HR. NEARY: I will redirect it to the Minister of Fisheries, Sir, if that will be any help. MR. SPEAKER: HR. W. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: would take it may respond to HR. ROBERTS: NP.. SPEAKER: "MR.. ROBERTS: We have to get the feeling of the Bouse. Mr. Speaker, I - In the absence of any indication as to the contrary,! that the House agrees that the hon. Minister of Fisheries the question. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. I mean,I would ask Your Honour to explain the ruling somewhat , I am quite geniunely concerned.

I mean, the hon. member has the right to ask the question. The minister has the right to answer or not to ansl~er. Then the hon. gentleman has asked the question of another minister which is fair game. He can turn and can ask of all the ministers, if he so wishes,if the question is in order,as I think it is. But Your Honour, I do not see how the House can consent to the minister giving an answer which under the rules he has the right to give. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Your Honour.

I felt that Your Honour had disposed of the point of order and I was now redirecting my question to the Hinister of Fisheries. I believe Your Honour was finished with the point of order, so the question was in order. I do not think Your Honour needed the permission of the House. HR. 1\fF.LLS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. We can get round the question of the permission of the House if the hon. member simply redirects his question,and that is the end of it. HR. NEARY: Uell,yes. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I probably should take that question as notice.

Obviously the Leader of the Opposition does not want to hear it,or to get the answer, yes. mt. ROBERTS: IV ell, that is untrue and unworthy. MR. DOODY: Himself! 3926

March 2<1, 1976. Tape 1464 RR - 3 MR. MORGAN: Do vou not know the rules of the House? MR. w. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I did attend a meeting of - MR. MORGAN: This is not a - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. H. CARTER: I did attend a meeting in Moncton on Friday of Ministers of Fisheries for Atlantic Canada. This meetin~ was called hy me to discuss with my Atlantic Provinces counterparts some of the problems facing the industry and some of the decisions that will have to he made very shortly with respect to Canada's future position in ICNAF.

At the meeting the other ministers and I agreed that first of all Canada should,in the absence of any formal treaty coming from the present Law of the Sea Conference in New York, that Canada should without any further delay unilaterally declare a 200 mile limit.

We agreed also that in order for Canada to do that that it would have to serve notice on ICNAF, ICNAF,of course,being the commission governing the fishing agents of the world that fish in that part of our water, the Coast, the Northwest Atlantic, that we serve notice on ICNAF to the effect that we probably will be declaring a 200 mile limit sometime in the latter part of 1976 or in the beginning of 1977.

In order for Canada to do that,notice must be given to ICNAF at this meeting in Cuba which commences on June 9, 1976, the urgency of the meeting being that unless that is one of the items on the agenda coverin~ the meeting that is being called in Cuha on the ninth, that it is very unlikely then that Canada will be able to effectively remove itself from ICNAF until the end of J '177, because under the constitution of ICNAF a member nation who wishes to 'vithdra,~,or reserve the right to withdraw must serve notice on that body six months prior to the end of a calendar year,which means 3927

March 29, 1976 Tape 1465 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: that if we are going to seV.r connections with ICNAF,say by the end of 1976 or the beginning 6f 1977~we must service notice on that body no later than the end of June 1976. I MR. NEARY: What would be the purpose? MR. W. CARTER: The purpose, Mr. Speaker, is that the declaration of a 200 mile limit and Canada 1 s continuation as a member of ICNAF is not compatible. At the present time ICNAF sets quotas.

If Canada were to declare a 200 mile limit,naturally the purpose being that Canada would then set quotas, we would not rely on ICNAF,which is made up of the other seventeen nations of the world who fish in the Atlantic to set quotas for Canada. We would have to set our own quotas, and to do that we would have to become disassociated with ICNAF, and that was the purpose of the meeting. CAPT WINSOR • Is Iceland a member of ICNAF? MR. W. CARTER: Not any more,! do not think. Certainly the Americans ~ill be servicing notice because of their intention of declaring a 200 mile limit. MR.

NEARY: They are going to go out on their own, are they? MR. W. CARTER: And any other nation who does likewise will have to remove itself from ICNAF. Well,that was the purpose of the meeting. And I think I was speaking for my colleagues in (

a) that Canada should declare a 200 mile limit 0 (

b) that it should now service notice on ICNAF, at least MR. SMALLWOOD: The minister was not speaking for his colleagues. Be ~as speaking for the whole population of this Province. MR. W. CARTER: I know, but the member, Mr. Speaker, asked was I speaking for the government. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. W. CARTER: And I think I am safe ln saying that I was. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, no, not on that. That was not his question. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary .question on this one. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Go ahead make your suggestion. 3~28

March 29, 1976 Tape 1465 PK- 2 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Is this a point of order? AN RON • MEMBER: No, no the question - HR. SMALLWOOD: No. It is a supplementary question. AN HON . ~1BER : Mr. Speaker - MR. F. ROWE: I have another question for another minister, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Twillingate. MR.

SMALLWOOD : It is one thing to express an opinion, but did the minister say categorically, publicly that Canada should and will withdraw from ICNAF, and in so doing was he giving the considered opinion of the Cabinet, of the Government of the Province 1 MR. w. CARTER: Of course. MR . SMALLWOOD: That Canada will or Canada ought to. MR. MORGAN: They should. MR . w. CARTER: Canada ought, it should. MR. SMALLWOOD: Ought? MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. w. CARTER : Mr. Spea~er, in answer to the supplementary.

Naturally I stated that, and my counterparts agreed,I might add the Minister from Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, and the Deputy Minister from Quebec - it was agreed unanimously that Canada should serve notice of its intention to withdraw from ICNAF on or before June 30, 1976. If we do not do it by that time, and this is the point I want to make, if we do not serve notice by the end of June this year Canada will be locked into ICNAF for eighteen months longer, whether we like it or not. And then a 200 ~ile limit will be meaningless. MR. SMALLWOOD: It could not apply until afterwards . MR . W.

CARTER: Right. And I do not think we can wait that long, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! I am now to inform the House that the Clerk of the House,in the absence of the Speaker,has received 392~

March 29, 1976 Tape 1465 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker (Dr. Collins): a certificate from two judges of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland that the recent election in Ferryland district has been declared void, and he has addressed his warrant to the Clerk of the Executive ' Council as required by the Election Act, The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment.

I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House, Sir, what action the Corporate Affairs Division of his department is taking in order to protect the consumer from the possibility of a pass-along tax as arresult of the increase in the Provincial eorporation !ax from 13 per cent to 14 per cent? What action, if any, is intended by the Corporate Affairs Division of his department? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. HON. A.

MIJRPBY : It is a little beyond my depth, Sir, but I will certainly find out if you want to put it on the Order Paper where I can read it and perhaps get a bit of intelligence into it. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, what I want to know is (order Paper~) - a supplementary. I regret that the minister could not understand · the meaning of the question really. MR. MURPJm: I am a little stupid,really. MR. F. ROWE: Well I will ask a related supplementary question then Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary. MR. F.

ROWE: Could I ask the minister what action, if any, the Consumer:· Affairs Bureau of his department is taking to protect the consumer agaic3t the tax being passed along, the cost ~eing passed along to the consumer as a result of the increase in the gasoline and diesel fuel tax? MR. WELLS: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon House Leader. 3930

' larch 29 , 1976 Tape 1465 PK - 4 Hr . Wells : ~lr. Speaker, the tax to which my hon. friend refers i n his question, of course, is a tax which has been placed on by the Government of the Province in a legitimate fashion in a budget . NO".J this is not a question of something from which the consumer has to be protected , nor does it come within the hon. gentleman's ambit , and, of course , it is out of order. ~ffi . MURPHY: That has to be the sur pr ise question of the year . MR. NEARY: Kr . Speaker, I would like to ask the Acting ~liniste r of Public Works - 393 1

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1466 Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker (Dr. Collins): Order, please! The point of order has not been disposed of as yet. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: To the point of order, Sir. May I suggest that the question is entirely in order. The gentleman from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) has asked the minister what steps the minister intends to take in an effort to try to protect the consumers of this Province from further price increases. The minister is the minister responsible for Consumer Affairs. The matter falls entirely within his ministerial jurisdiction, ministerial activity.

If the minister is unable or unwilling to answer it, well that again is the minister's right. But I would suggest, Sir, that my friend and colleague from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) has every right to ask the question and indeed the duty to ask it, Sir, given this government's record in this field. MR. WELLS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition has in fact asked a quite different question, which is, does the han. minister propose to take action for future price increases? That was not the question which the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) asked. MR. MURPHY: Put it on the Order Paper. MR.

ROBERTS: To a point of order,again, Sir, Mr. Speaker, if the minister wishes to duck an answer he is entitled to put it on the Order Paper. That is not the point before the Chair right now. The point before the Chair, Sir, is that my colleague asked a question, _ and the Government House Leader obviously misunderstood it or did not hear it correctly, but the question which my colleague asked was exactly q' the same in intent, it may not be word for word, but exactly the ' same in every way as the way in which I phrased it. Does the minister intend to do anything to protect the consumers?

That is all we want to know. MR. MURPHY: I will do everything in my power, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: Then resign. 3932

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1466 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! I think we can take it that the point of order has been disposed of by the minister's willingness to answer when the question has been put on the Order Paper. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister responsible for the Environment, Sir, and Consumer Affairs, and I think probably in both of his capacities this question would apply.

Would the minister tell the House if Affiliated Marine Metal and Salvage are paying rental 1 or have leased or bought the property down at the Octagon down by the steel plant to stockpile cars, car wrecks? And would the minister also indicate, while he is on his feet, what time this eyesore is going to be removed from the environment down in that area, down near the steel plant? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. COllins): The hon. minister. MR. MURPHY: As far as the first question is concerned,! have not the faintest idea.

And as far as the second question is concerned, I will just say this quite frankly\that we have had- and as a matter of fact I went in over the weekend - we have had notes from the Paradise town council tl1at it is a bit of an eyesore there ,so I went in over the weekend to have a look at it, and as far as I am concerned now perhaps someone who knows the story on rentals might answer it. I really do not, because I am not familiar with all the workings of the agreement. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Transportation and Communications tell us whether the land is leased, bought, rented, or if they are stockpiling these cars there free of charge? Somebody must know the answer. MR. MURPHY: The Minister of Finance, I think, wanted to answer, if I am not mistaken. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. }10RGAN: I assume he is referring to the collection of these old car wrecks by a company,Affiliated Metal. 3933

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1466 Page 3 - mw MR. NEARY: And Salvage. MR. MORGAN: The responsibility of the collection of these old vehicles is strictly the responsibility of my colleague the Minister of Environment and Consumer Affairs. The funds are being raised through my department by means of a collection of an additional $1 in the licence plates, a revenue source from my department,but the responsibility is the Department of the Environment. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister responsible for the Environment , if he does not have the information at his fingertips, would he undertake to get it for me1 Does Affiliated Marine Salvage Metalsrent the land, lease the land, or are they allowed to saackpile these cars there free of charge1 Maybe the Minister of Fiaance knows the answer. MR. MURPHY: Yes, the minister asked the member the other day to put it on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER (Dr.Collins): The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, there was an agreement signed some time ago between government and the company to which my hon. friend refers.

The arrangements under which they stockpile out there at Donovans are very clearly set out. I can have a look at that document during the next couple of days and get the information for the gentleman. He seems to be very, very interested in that particular line of industry right now,and I can well understand his concern. I will do what I can to get the information for him as quickly as I can, and as my colleagues will.! am sure. MR. !"ORGAN: Ris brother-in-law is into it. His brother-in-law's name is there. 3934

!'arch Z9, 1976 Tape No. 1467 N}<.,- 1 J'P. NEARY: ~!r. Speaker, would the minister undertake to table the contract heti;een the government and Affiliated Marine Salvage Metals in the House? The hon. Minister of Finance.

M1' • OOODY: I am not prepared to make a commitment one way or the other yet, Sir, I want to have a very, very serious look at it because there may be something in there that my hon. and learned across the way-and I say learned not in the legal sense, but in a strange sense he may find something that is a little bit peculiar that would not appear peculiar to most people, so T reserve a commitment on that for the present. lfll .• NEARY: ~lr. Speaker, a supplementary question, the minister seems to be - M1'. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Order, please!

Our rules state that the Speaker may permit a reasonable number of supplementary questions, I take the vie~~ that the Hinister of Finance's answer to the last question indicating a willingness to supply information later to the House will take care of further questions in this area. The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~fll .• LUSH: }<r. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of :<ines and Energy.

With respect to the cost of services that is being charged by Light and Power every month which is now seven per cent, I wonder if the minister could inform the House as to how long this cost of service adjustment will stay in effect? HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Hinister of Mines and Energy. HR. CROSBIE: :Mr.

Speaker, this is a matter that effects Newfoundland Light and Power and an application it made to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities which permitted this monthly adjustment, that is the cost of service adjustment, if you are talking about that monthly adjustment of 1.75 which permitted them to impose that until they were in a position where they were getting the return on their investment permitted under The Public Utilities Act. 3935

"M"arch 29, 1976 Tape No. 1467 NM- 2 }'11.. CROSBIE: Now they have not been receiving that since, I think November was the last month, and to start receiving it again they have to get the permission of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities or show them that they have not got the proper return yet. It is suspended at the moment because presumably they are receiving whatever return they are allowed by the Board of Commissioners for Public Utilities.

But for 1110re information on that I am sure if the han. member contacted the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities they would be pleased to explain the situation to him. }ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, inform the House if the full amount of the dollar that is collected on every licence in Newfoundland this year, if the full amount is going to be paid out to Affiliated Marine Salvage Metals for collecting car wrecks?

If not~wil:l any of it fine! its ~Tay into the general revenue or will there be refunds to the people who purchased the licence? MR. SPEAKER (Dll.. COLLINS): Order, please! That question was similar and in the same area as the question previously asked 1 and the Chair ruled that supplementary questions on this matter were not to be entertained today so I would rule that out of order. ~. NEARY: It is a completely new question Your Honour. !-rn. SPEAKER (DR. COLLll~S): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Health perhaps the House Leader on the government side could give me the answer; there is a considerable amount of public interest naturally in ~~hich 200 acute care beds are to be closed, would the minister make public at an early date the numbers of beds which are to be closed in the several hospitals, assuming there is more than one to be effected, and vTOuld he undertake to do that quickly, Sir? }Ill.. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. House Leader. 3936

¥arch 29, 1976 Tape No. 1467 N~ - 3 }ffi • HELLS : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health is going to be meeting, if I am not mistaken this week, or start meetings at any rate this week,with various administrators and officials of various hospitals and they will jointly,I understand 1 determine the various beds that are going to be closed and of course an announcement would be made very quickly after. r~. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, merely to note that I find the ans~.rer unsatisfactory and I will be asking either the hon. gentleman or his colleague to debate it on the late show. MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): The hon. member for Terra Nova. XR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the }linister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister inform the House as to who or what body authorized the recent increase in air passenger fares to and from St. Brendan's? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. }mRGAN: Gander Aviation Company operates out of Gander and they are operating a regular scheduled service to the islands of Fogo and St. Brendan's and any increase in their fares f.s the responsibilf.ty of the company.

Fe are subsidizing the operations of the scheduled air servf.ce at this time maf.nly because of the environmental condf.tions, ice conditions, etc., preventing the regular water transport ferry from operating on a normal, regular basis and we are subsidf.zing the operations. But as for any increase in their regular air fares, it is the responsibility of the airline or the air company and I would assume that with the approval of the Transportation Commission in Ottawa. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MP,. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary.

Harch 29, 1976 Tape 1468 IB-1 ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMr-fONS: A supplementary to the question asked by my colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush): I wonder would the minister indicate whether the government is making this subsidy available to the airline without having any say or any control over the rates which can be charged? Is that what the minister has indicated,that the government has no say at all in the rates cba~ged in this service albeit it is a subsidized service? And for that reason should they not have some control? }!R. SPEAKER: ~MORGAN: The bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do have some control over the amount of subsidy we are going to pay to the company. When the subsidy is initially negotiated or arranged we ask the airline concerned to indicate to us what fares they will be charging and of course our negotiations are based on a minimum fare being charged by the airline itself. HR. SPEAKER: MR. SH!MONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to hear that there was some diologue on the matter and that the government did find out what the initial rates would be.

It seems to me that government representing the people involved should have some safeguard built into the agreement, not only in terms of minimums but more important in terms of maximums. My direct question to the minister is, is it a requirement of the subsidization to this company, is it a requirement from government that the rates cannot be increased without prior consultation with the provider of the subsidy, namely,the government of this Province? ~. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~m. ¥ORGAN: Sir, the hon. gentleman surely must realize that the control of rates of any airline, whether it be regional, district or national, is strictly a federal level of government through the Canadian Transportation Commission. Now that authority, that regulatory body controls rates in this Province whether it is Gander Aviation, 3938

!-~'arch 29, 1976 Tape 1468 IB-2 ~m.. MOP.GAN: ~·1hether it if! Labrador Airways, Eastern Provincial Airways or Air Canada. }ffi. SIMMONS: The minister would agree you could withhold the subsid~ though. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. NEARY: A question for the acting Minister of Public Works and Services.

Would the minister inform the House if the $6,135 per month paid out to Central Investigating and Securities Services is to protect buildings that are owned by the Government of Canada, owned by the government of this Province,or still under the control of the United States Authorities in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: That is what we are trying to find out,and that is why the gentlemen are down there. One would hopefully think that whoever owns the builcing would come and let us know. We understand it is the federal government.

I do not know if the federal government knows which department it is. In the meantime,we are stepping in there. It is not the United States Government,as we understand it. It has been passed over to the Canadian government. Which department in the Canadian government I do not think they know. While they are trying to find out we intend to safeguard the buildings down there. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question; Am I interpreting the minister correctly that the buildings that are being protected at the moment have been turned over to the Government of Canada by the United States Authorities~ Is that what the minister is saying? ~m . DOODY: No. MR. NEARY: Well, what is the minister saying? Go ahead,! do not care who answers it l'!R. DOODY: I just have a little background knmvledge on this from Industrial nevelopment~which responsibility I had until fairly recently. 3939

rrarch 29, 1976 Tape 1468 MR. DOODY: For several years now there has been an ongoing discussion with the Government of Canada with regard to the disposition of the facilities at Argentia. The government departments at Ottawa IB-3 t~ho have been involved have been DREE, the MOT, Justice and External Affairs. External Affairs are involved because they speak only to the State Department as the Government of Canada, the State Department or the External Affairs version. The United States obviously cannot communicate with the Government of Newfoundland, so they speak to the Government of Canada.

While all this ongoing jargon and balderdash and nonsense has been going on between these three governments, the Government of the United States through the Navy Department and their people in Argentia have indicated their willingness to turn these properties over to the people of Newfoundland. The Government of Canada has been involved in a very serious internal jurisdictional dispute among them­ selves as to which department has the responsibility,as well as a dispute w:!th the Government of Newfoundland over who actually owns Argentia.

It has been our attitude and our feeling.and I think a reasonable and sensible one, that the property out there is the property of the people of Newfoundlan~ as it was before it was leased under terms laid down by the then government,which was prior to Confederation. However, this 3940

March 29, 1976 Mr. Doody. Tape no. 1469 Page 1 - JliW is not the point that is in question right now. The point in question is that all these buildings are falling down. They are collapsing. They are not being looked after.

And in order to bring the thing to a head the Province of Newfoundland have decided to put some security people in their to try to protect the area while all these nonsensical government departments are fighting over who indeed owns them • We have said to the Government of Canada - I can think that it is as long ago as a year and a half when I was in that department- •,ye can set aside the jurisdiction and discuss it at great length with the lawyers in the Department of Justice in Ottawa who are in conflict with the lawyers in the Department of MOT in Ottawa, if it makes them happy to keep on discussing this thing for years and years by all means let them do so.

Let us set that aside and let us protect that property out there, because it is a valuable asset. The people of -Newfoundland can use it. And in order to bring the thing to a head we have finally,under our own authority or lack of authority, as will be determined, we have decided to put in a security force as watch guards and guardians so the buildings will not be torn down before they can be used by anybody. MR. NEARY: !1r, Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! MR. NEARY: This is the latest example of jargon I have ever heard.

But would the minister tell the House, just as a point of clarification if nothing else, Sir, did I understand the minister to say that the United States Government is prepared to turn over these buildings to the Government of Canada, but the Government of Canada cannot make up its mind which department will assume the responsibility? Am I interpreting the minister correctly? MR. DOODY: You are pretty close to it, which is amazing, 3941

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1469 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: Because I know it is not true. MR, DOODY: Sir, first of all I want to make that clear that I have not lied to the House nor have I tried to mislead it. You aay feel that it is untrue, but you certainly do not know that it is. '·The United States Government have made it quite clear that that area that we are now talking about is of no further use to them, and they are quite willing to turn it over to that authority in Canada which has jurisdiction over that piece of land or property or buildings.

The battle now goes on between the Government of Nevilioundland and the Government of Canada as to whose jurisdiction it is. The Government of Canada has said that they feel that it is properly theirs, and we cannot really pi~ down a department to get that finalized and settled. The Government of Newfoundland feels, and I think rightly so, that the area is ours. MR. NEARY: On behalf of - MR. DOODY: I say so on behalf of the people of Newfoundland.

But the point is that this is all irrelevant, because the thing can be put aside and discussed for years to come without the deterioration and the loss to the people of that area of the buildings, and that is the problem that we have been having. The thing has been falling aown while the bureaucrats have been quarrelling,and so, Sir, in order to try to bring the thing to a head the hon. minister has hired a security group to go in there and to try to keep it in tact.

I think particularly of the gymnasium and the recreational facilities that are out there that are being vandalized and destroyed, because nobody right now takes the responsibility for them. We have done so. Now it may very well be this may bring the thing to a head, and we can get it finalized. There was no attempt at jargon, Sir. I thought it was a fairly reasonable explanation and anybody who has had any experience with trying to deal with four departments in Ottawa, the Kavy Department, the people at Argentia and the External Affairs Department in 3942

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1469 Page 3 - mw Mr. Doody. the US would realize that it is impossible to describe it in any simplier terms. ~ffi.. SPEAKER (Dr . Colli ns): One brief question. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question on this matter. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. C o ll~s ) : The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Has the minister, has any minister, has the Premier gone to the Prime Minister of Canada - let me put it another way - has anyone in the administration looked up the precedent•? Fort Pepperrell fell vacant. The United States Government moved out of it. Stephenville fell vacant.

The United States Government moved out of it. And an arrangement was made with regard to each one of them. I happened to be the one to have made it on the Newfoundland side,and the Prime Minister of Canada was the one on the Canadian side in the case of Fort Pepperrell,and ~. Pickersgill our minister in the canadian cabinet, who happened also to be the Minister of Transport, was the one on the Canadian side with regard to Stephenville. Well, now the two precedencs are there. MR. NEARY: The difference is Argentia is still there. There is still a base in that area. MR. SHALLWOOD: That is right.

There is a part base, just a small little corner. MR. NEARY: Therein lies the problem. ~ffi.. SMALLWOOD: Well, no. I discussed that with the Government of the United States when I was Premier, and there was no difficulty. I got some buildings there for the Newfoundland Government,and the Newfoundland Government then leased them to private enterprise. These precedents are there. Has the minister or has the Premier or anyone followed them up and got the same kind of settlement wthh regard to Argentia? 394 .3

March 29, 1976 Tape 1470 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The Minister of Finance. HON. W. C. DOODY: The precedents that l.he hon. member from Twillin~ate, P.C.,mentions are there and they certainly have been discussed and they have been brought out, and the lawyers from our Department of Justice have brought the files to Ottawa, and have discussed it at great length and have pointed out the areas that are similar. But there are areas that are different. The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) in an undertone which the House may not have picked up has mentioned one of them , which is the fact that the American authorities are not giving up control of Argentia in toto. They are saying that we cannot afford- the uncertainty of the situation in Iceland, Reykjavik , the government attitude there about our naval base- 'we cannot afford politically and perhaps militarily to say that we will as of this moment say that we no longer need that Argentia Naval Base for future purposes, for NATO purposes, for whatever defense purposes they have.

We have a ninety-nine year lease on it, and we are going to reserve our right. What we will do is give you certain areas of it under certain conditions. And this is a further complication. We have also negotiated the use of certain buildings out there, Pyramid Mobile Homes are inhabiting one of them, but they are doing it under a strange sort of an arrangement. The United States Government has given us a lease, or the right to give them a lease,but it is a thirty day termination thing. 1-!R. S}fALLWOOD: This is not satisfactory. HR. DOODY: And we have undertaken to indemnify Pyramid if they get shifted out of it.

Well that is an uncomfortable sort of a way - MR. NEARY: The problem is with the United States Government and Ottawa. MR. DOODY: No, no, no • You see,you have got a very simple mind. You cannot simplify things like that, or oversimplify them. MR. NEARY: I am very quick minded, NR. DOODY: It is quick, that is right, but- MR. NEARY: because I have checked this out and I know the answer. 3944

March 29, 1976 Tape 1470 PK - 2 t1R. DOODY; Well 1 if the hon. member has the answer, Sir, I think he should stand up in the House and - MR. NEARY; You never ask a question in the House unless you know the answer. MR. DOODY: - the hon. member should answer the question~ MR. NEARY: I cannot. MR. DOODY; or give us the answer because we l:ave been struggling ~vith it. Well could you please supply the House with the answer, Sir? HR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker - HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. NEARY: - I will be very happy to. MR. SPEAKER {DR. COLLINS): Order, please!

The Question Period time has expired, so unless it is with the pleasure of the House I will call Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF TllE DAY ~ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Motion (8). At the adjournment of the debate the Hinister of Hines and Energy was finishing his remarks. HON. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it is my intention to conclude my remarks now in a relatively brief period of time and if I might just - MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman is literally emptying the House this afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: I would ~ike to have lots of room, if the atmosphere does not ~et too heated. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, I thought that I would finish up now in the next few minutes by summarizing the situation in connection with the refinery. First, I hope it is clear to all members of the House from ~vhat I have said that the government has done everything and did everything that was possible to keep the oil refinery going under its present ownership and management. I have recited a number of the steps that we took ourselves, and a number of things that we did ourselves including, first, the postponement of an interest payment, or rart of an interest p~yment last March, which was a considerable 3945

Xarch 29, 1976 Tape 1470 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: concession~ our agreeing to a third mortgage,subject to cettain reasonable and necessary conditions. The government has the obligation, of course 1 to be reasonable and to be responsible, and we agreed to a third mortgage on the only terms that were reasonable and responsible, but it could not be attained. There was no way the refinery could be kept operating under the present management and ownership because of the financial circumstances surrounding it.

The government again assisted the refinery in not insisting that they pay Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro what was rightly owed them under their contract, so that Hydro is now owed somewhat in excess of $1 million in connection with electricity provided to the plant. The government once 3946

>!arch 29, 1976 Tape 1471 rn-1 }!Jl. CROSBIE; more, !!r. Speaker - and I dicl not mention this the other day - has shmm ?. great de<.l of patience 1vith the Shaheen organization in connection ,,, jth Newfoundl<1nd Pulp and Chemical Limited. I pointed out to the House last week that Newfoundland Refining is Ol).'ed somethinr, like $2,50 ·:J,OOO by Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical which is part of amounts extending in excess of $50 million owed by various Shaheen companies to Newfoundland Refining, passed out by Ne1~ foundland Refining - rm. :-IOLAN: ~Jould the han. minister permit a question? ~1JI.

CP0S!HE: Yes. liT' . }lQLAN : It is simply this. I heard mentioned in debate a figure, l!r. Speaker, of $1 million owing to Newfoundland Hydro, I believe. I am wondering if this is all or is there a total figure. He are talking,for cxample,about $44 million being owed. Now He have another $1 million. I am wondering i.f the ninister has already mentioned.or will in his remarks, what is owed in total to this Province on the refinery deal? MR . CROSBIE: Hell,I have> covered all that, I think, Hr.

Speaker. \ /hat is o<Jed to the Province is interest which is m,recl from last }<arch 31,and of course an interest payment will again be due this week, on ~~arch 3l,which ~~ill not be met. So that the total amount due the Province as of ~larch 31 for interest will be $3,651,000. That is due on !•arch 31. Al.'l HON. }lE~!BER: Is that just the deferred amount? }~ .. CROSBI E : Yes, that is the deferred amount plus the next paynent. So there will be $3,600,000 due for interest. Newfoundlanc1 and Labrador Hydro are owed just in excess of $1 million. t'R.

NOLA. 'II: ?'l'. r.nosnm: h'e are owed over a bulk of $50 million, are we? No, the han. gentleman is mistaken. Oh, you are talking about the $41 rr.illion. Under the second mortgage we have $41,300,000. To that will have to be adC!.ed the interest that is going to be due this week and not going to be paid, and in six months 394"1

Harch 29, 1976 Tape 1471 IB-2 }ffi. CROSBIE: time there will be further interest. k"! HON. MEMBER: Is that for John himself? tffi. CROSBIE: Exactly, right. ~IR. NOLAN: So this will keep rolling up - MR. CROSBIE: The interest will still keep increasing. MR. NOLAN: - until the year end - MR. CROSBIE: Right. MR. NOLAN: - without stopping. HR. CROSBIE: That is right. From this Harch 31, then, the interest •'ill be due on the interest that is due. I am just merely pointing out ways in which v.'e attempted to help them through this crisis. Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical is another company owned by Mr. Shaheen.

They are indebted to the Government of Newfoundland to lfatch 22, 1976 in an amount of $4,054,739.67. MR. ROBERTS: ~1R. CROSBIE: How much of that is principal and how much interest? Well, Hr. Speaker, Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical received n r,uarantee of a loan from the Government of Newfoundland in nay, 1967 of $2.5 million. The Government of Newfoundland, at that time they were supposed to be going ahead with the construction of a third mill at Come By Chance but that had to be put off.

A million was paid off by the Government of Ne~1foundland to the Royal Bank of Canada on April 4, 1968 and another . $1.5 million paid off on April 10, 1968. On that amount since there is interest accrued up to !''[arch 22, 1976 of $1,554,739.67 making a total of $4,054,739.67 that Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical owes the Government of Newfoundland in connection with the abortive attempts to establish a third mill.

The same company is also indebted to Newfoundland Refining, who apparently advanced that company in excess of $2.5 million which has not been repaid 1and which is now owed to the bankrupt Newfoundland Refining. These amounts have been owing since 1967 with the interest mounting,but ste ps have not been taken to enforce 3948

: ~nrch 29 , 197G Tape 1471 In-3 !-m. CROSJHI:: it,presumnbly in the hope that it was going to get established C'r ,,.e would eventually get the money back someda y if the refinery wa~< a success . 1'.11 along the <>ay, !:r. Speaker, we have encouraged f.CCD and the other creditors involved to be generous in waiting and accepting proposals,cr waiting for arrangeMents to be u~ce and the li!,e.

I do not believe I have ever seen a similar instance of where a debto r has received such &onerous ;~nd considerate trcncmen t by his creditors, particula rly a debtor in such bad f inancial sltape as this deb tor '1-mS • .'.s I r.enti.oned tc the House l~st week . we did aJ.'I,ree even to have t.nbrador Liner board purc hase Bunker C fror.~ them thls year , and ::e1>foundland and Labrador l!ydro to purchase Bunker C from them this year to help them out . Sut of course that is gone by the board now h ecau~<e the operat i on hAs ce<~sed . So, l".r .

Speaker, I do not think that there is any l e~:iti:l>ate \~ay in which the government could be criticized for not attempting to assis t the present owner ship and r.~c'tn ager.tent pull this operation out from the desperate straits that i t got into . 394 ~

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1472 Page 1 - mw Mr. Crosbie. And as I pointed out to the House, Mr. Speaker, in this

summary, the major reason for the failure of being able to do this was that the Shaheen management and organization did not come clean to the major creditors. They kept the seriousness of their position to themselves. It was difficult to get information from them.

They always played their cards very close to their vest, and this was true not only with respect to the Government of Newfoundland but with respect to the other major creditors involved,so that it was not until October 1975 that the major creditors got together and realized how serious the situation was, and how much was owed to them all, and in particular how much was owed to the firm of Ataka in Japan, and that is when the events started that have now resulted in the closedown of the refinery.

One of the reasons why any attempt to carry on by the Japanese with a third mortgage did fail was the fact that they were not prepared to meet our reasonable conditions and those of ECGD, and the fact that Mr. Shaheen attempted to get, to salvage out of the wreckage,too much for himself, and the creditors would not go along with what he was proposing- his $10,000 a month and the $3 million for his shares,and the releases to UOP7 and other non-PRC debts going under the mortgage and the like, and that finally they would go no further for those reasons.

Now to summarize again the reasons for the failure of PRC and NRC, which as I pointed out last week, and it is important to remember, is the failure of those companies because success or failure of the actual refinery is a different question, and the actual oil refinery and the assets of Come By Chance may well yet be saved and operate again. But-there is no question that these two companies cannot be saved and operate again. That is two different questions. Some of the reasons were " not within their control, and that was the energy crisis of October 1973 resulting in huge increases in the price 3950

!!arch 29, 1976 Tape no. 1472 Page 2 - mw Mr. Crosbie. of crude oil, resulting in consumer resistance to the purchase of refined products because of the increases in price,which has resulted in a poor refining marketing situation.

That energy crisis resulted in export controls in c~nada,and controls and steps being taken in the United States that makes it impracticable to be an offshore refinery selling into the United States, And I refer hon. members to a very interesting report put out by Wood, Gundy on March 1, 1976 and it is a special report on the refining and marketing prospects in Canada of the oil refinery industry. MR. NEARY: Do you have a copy of that? MR. CROSBIE: I can get some Xerox copies made. This report deals with the position of the oil industry in Canada, a twenty-four page report.

I will just point out a couple of things that it reports. It says that the refining and marketing sector of the Canadian oil industry has been deteriorating and. that the shares of the integrated oil companies have not performed well due to poor refining and marketing prospects. The report analyzes the domestic refined product demand capacity, export demand and so on~ determining r~fining and marketing profitability in Canada.during the next three years. This is what this report does. It says that Canada has not yet felt the full brunt of higher world oil prices.

This will dampen further growth and refined product sales in Canada,as will government's sponsored conservation measures. The combined impact will reduce annual growth to about 3.5 per cent compared with 5.7 per cent annual growth rate in the 1960's and early 1970's. In other words,the increase in oil prices and so on means that the annual growth rate for the oil refining incustry has gone down to 3.5 per cent from the former 5.7 per cent,which means that there is-a surplus of refining capacity.

Export growth of refined products will be restrained by current low U.S. refinery capacity utilization, poor profitability in 3951

liarch 29, 1976 Tape no. 14 72 Page 3- mw Mr. crosbie. exports from Eastern Canada.and political uncertainty regarding the exports from Ontario. The combi.nation of reduced growth and demand for refined products in addition to refining capacity reduced the overall average refinery operating rate in Canada to about eight-five per cent in 1975. In other words,our refineries in canada only operated at an overall average rate of eighty-five per cent in 1975. This compares with rates of ninety per cent to ninety-se ven per cent during the previous twelve years. 395 2

I' arch zn. 1 07fi Tate No. 1473 NY - 1 "1l. f:P.()SlHF: Regionally in l 0 71'i and 1')77 operating rates will he l0west :tn Eastern Canada, due to the recent 1sn,oon barrel per day Irvinp, Oil expansion recently completed in ~ew Brunswick. !utd then tl'e report goes on to eli scuss all these matters in dcta:ll, and it 5s rJf p;reat tnterest to anybody really interested in this 'lUestion. It points out on page four the export licences imposed in 1973. Since 1973 anyone '"ishing to export products from Canada must obtain an export licence from the National Energy Board.

To obtain such a 1-tcence it must be established that the product is surplus to Canada's needs,and it goes on to describe that, Then they deal Pith ITS refining capacity :In operating rates. P.efinery utilization,they say 1 in the United States this year will be only about eighty-four per cent in the United States itself. So that gives poor prospects for export::.ng in the US. Profitability of exports - page seven. They say that there is poor profitability of exporting products refined in Ouebec and ttte Atlantic "Provinces from imported crude oil.

Because of the tTS crude oi.l entitlements programme which balances refiners' cost of cheaper domestic and costlier imported crude, the average cost of crude oil for ns refiners is significantly lower than for Eastern Canadian refi.ners, ~,rho pay full world prices. So, in other ~vords,dovm in the llnited States they are going to import crude oil, not refined oil. Since their crude oil is less expensive to them than i.t is to Eastern Canada refiners,v7e are not going to be able to compete ir the United States and sell there. And it goes on to discuss that.

Then they discuss the cost advantage enjoyed by US refiners over export refiners located in Eastern Canada. They say it can be seen that the cost of crude oil plus tariff for US refiners using 100 per cent imported oil is over $2.00 per barrel lower than the same cost for competing Canadian refiners. So how are ~ve going to he ahle to compete for the next t~•o or three years in the US market 3953

}'arch 2~, 1976 Tape No. 1473 NM- 2 r~R. CROSBIE: from this refinery? Exports are obviously unprofitable for Eastern Canadian refiners at current depressed product prices. And they go on mn that in detail. So that when you read through this analysis and this article,they say the Come By Chance refinery in Newfoundland is in serious financial difficulty not only because of very poor export markets but also because of technical problems effecting two important production units.

Then they conclude that the major integrated countries will be hard pressed to maintain earnings from refining and marketing operations at 1975 levels during the next three years. So that when you have gone through this very complete study you can see why there is a serious marketing problem that effects all refiners of crude oil, particularly in Eastern Canada and particularly refiners that were established in Eastern Canada for the export market. ~. NOLAN: What is the possibility of this situation improving?

And why I ask the minister that is by shutting down the plant for a vear or two, then that refinery, what chance does it have? l'R. CROSBIE: 1</ell, I think that this situation will change in the next t~~o or three years~but it is hard to know how much it effects our prospects of selling the oil refinery. The large integrated companies may not be interested,but there are other people who will will be looking dmm the road two or three years who will or should be interested 1n getting a foothold here at this particular time.

But the refining and marketing prospects are not that favourable for the next two or three years. So the refining situation changed on them,and the controls in the US changed on them and of course, Mr. Speaker, there is the late construction of the oil refinery itself which caused them heavy losses. There is the continuing failure of the hydrogen plant to operate properly and other technical difficulties in the heating situation. 3954

l'arch ;l'l, 1"7f Tape ~o. 1473 Nl" - 3 '~ r.POSBfF.: There are some other thin~s that t would say that manay,eroent themselves must be res~onsible for, such as the problem of wax creation. So for those reasons, ~Jhich may be largely outside the management and ownership's control, this has given them a lot of their problems . Other reasons for the failure of the refinery mmed by these t:l~o companies are the lack of equity and workin~ capital . Ten million dollars 395 5

March 29, 1976. MR. CROSBIE: Tape 1474 RH - 1 equity is just not enough to operate such a complex particularly today when a cargo of oil costs at least $23 million to $25 million in a VLCC. They entered into a crude oil purchase contract with British Petroleum. They had to buy at least 90 per cent of their crude oil from B.P. It is a cost plus contract. They cannot take advantage of the spot market in oil. They have got to buy their oil from B.P. at top prices in the world 1and that was a contract they entered into themselves some three or four years ago which goes on yet for another two or three years.

So they are paying the top price for crude oil and cannot get out of it. By the way, Mr. Speaker, the supplier of crude oil, B.P.,will have a claim against N.R.C. and P.R.C. for millions in damages. The owners of all these tankers are going to have claims for millions and millions of damages. MR. ROBERTS: eor unfuJfilled contracts? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, for breach of contract. So there is going to be tens of millions of dollars of claims made against these two companies for breach of contract. If they are successful - HR • ROBERTS: They are not secured creditors. MR. CROSBIE: No.

Well, if they are successful in their claims they just become unsecured creditors. But it further shows the impossibility of these two companies operating,or anyone buying the shares of these two companies or tryinp, to operate them, or anyone buying the assets from these two companies because in addition to all the money that is owed now, they are liable to tens and tens of millions of dollars in damage suits by B.P. and by the owners of the tankers.

Then there were the seven VLCCs When they only needed three, with losses up to $3 million a month in connection with the operation of these tankers, tremendous demurrage losses. There is the failure to give us full information, and the other creditors; the fact that there are no take or pay sales contracts that can now be found in effect,with the exception~! think~of perhaps two down in New York under Hhich they are losing money supplying aviation gasoline. 3956

Harch 2Cl, 1976. Tape 1474 RH - 2 lffi. ROBERTS: They were a number. What happened to them? MR . CROSBIE: Well, whatever there were had to disappear or had to be released because of the export control. MR. S'HALLWOOD: Which the government knew. MR. CROSBIE: You had to get an export permit to ship~so that most of those vanished because of that. The two that are left - I think there are two that they are still delivering, they were delivering aviation gasoline down thP.re - they are losing money on it as it is.

I believe,as I mentioned the other day,that they should have concentrated on the success of this refinery before dissipating their resources and attempting to establish other refineries around the world, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. It was a bad practice, Mr. Speaker, and it was a bad omen for this refinery for the start for them to have the designer, U.O.P.,and the contractor, Procon,engaged in giving it financial support.

They had U.O.P. and Procon "''•aranteein3 loans for them,and providing financing for them,and when it came then to the construction contract~and when it came to enforcing the construction contract,or when it came to a quarrel during the course of construction as to whether the contractor was properly carrying out his job,the owners were in no position to take the strong stand they should have taken had the contractor not been financially involved at all. Anyone who has a contractor build a pro ,ject for them,where the contractor is involved in helping the~ finance it,it is going to be at the contractor's mercy.

So it ill behooves Mr. Shaheen now to complain too much about what happened during construction. He should never have had to get U.O.P. and the construction companies involved in his financing. They are involved now to the tune of something like $32 million. U.O.P. guaranteed the original loan for hi~ to put in his $10 million equity. So he was never an independent agent vis-a-vis the contractor and the designer, whom he j_s no'l1 suing for $189 million. That was a poor situation from the start. I believe that far too much was taken out of these companies 3957

~l arch 29, 1976. '1R. CROSS IE: Tape 1474 RR- 3 to support the rest of the organization Mr. Shaheen had, and his othe r endeavours in the oil business. The overheads were too great. There was the question of these $46 million that have gone from N. R.C. up to Shaheen ~atural Resources or his other companies with no explanation , and which has to be followed up by a trustee, investigated and the money recovered , and the amounts owed Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical and the rest. This operation could not afford $46 million going out on loan to others of ~lr.

Shaheen 's companies, and for what purpose we do not know, whether it is the New York press or some other of his oper ations. Here are companies that owe their own creditors tens of millions,and $46 million of the money supposedly is lent or advanced to Shaheen :iatura1 Resources who now say that it does not have to be paid back until 1985 which 3958

~'arch 29, 1976 Tape 1475 IB-1 tiR. CROSBIE: is obviously a ridiculous situation which the trustee has to investigate thoroughly. These are some of the reasons then, ~~r. Speaker, why these ttvo companies are in their present position. Now it appears obvious then that these two companies are finished. They can no longer operate. They are completely insolvent. Their trustee has to straighten out their affairs,and what we have to do with the trustee now is to get these assets sold so it operates again at Come Dy Chance. One of the flies in the ointment that may prevent quick progress in that area is Mr.

Shaheen's nuisance actions in the United States courts, every kind of action under the sun to delay the trustee getting possession of the accounts and the books down there; every kind of action that would prevent Ataka from proceeding with their petiU.on in the Newfoundland court "'here the assets are; suits aeainst us and the other creditors for conspiracy and the like. The only purpose of those actions is to delay the trustee and us from doin3 what must te done to help this refinery operate again. lle have to find a new owner and operater. Y.R.

NOLAl11: Would the .ninister permit a question? l~IL CROSBIE: Yes. ~lR. NOLAN: If I may, ~r. Speaker, I would like - I realize this would not be maybe an impossible question to answer, and that is fro~ his own experience as a lawyer,and having seen certain judgements and so on held up for so long, for example, even in this Province- tidth a complicated situ::ttion like this, how does he envisage it? I mean, could t,•e see five years ,.·ith that refinery lying out there tieC. up in the courts by t.>homever and so on?

I realize I cannot expect from the minister a definitive, accurate answer to such a question 1but I tvould like to have the benefit of his experience in similar circumstances. We have been told that this is one of the most phenomenal types of transactions of its kind in North America. I 3959

March 29, 1976 Tape 1475 ~:R. NOLAN: would appreciate an answer to -that,if he can. MP_. CROSBIE: Hell 1 that is difficult to answer, Jfr. Speaker. I mean, the trustee is now appointed down at Come By Chance. It is a question of how quickly and effectively he can pursue the matters he has to pursue in the United States that roost of these actions relate to. There is an appeal being taken from the order made by Chief Justice ~!ifflin. Well,that will be disposed of IB-2 in the next- presumably, before June. In the meantime the trustee is in control and proceeds.

If they appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada that Hill be dealt with there sometime in the next few months. But that does not hold the trustee up in getting on with the business of making, you knm.;, an orderly disposal of the assets. But if it came to a sale,and there is some uncertainty as to whether the trustee has really got the assets,that could possibly cause some delay. Although then under the mortgages, I think we might be able to proceed there.

But a determined and inplacable opponent, well-heeled,with lots of money and able to pay the necessary hundreds of thousands to lawyers,can doubtless harass the situation, for a good many months. I do not know- it is not to anybody's benefit that I can see but it could be done. So Hhat "'e have to do now is to get the refinery sold, get the trustee properly in possession, try to find a purchaser who is going to be abl e to carr y on and has the finances and the experience to operate the refinery in the future.

We have got to do what 1-re can for the displaced workers do•..m there and hope that before too long it ,.,nl be open again so that they can all be rehired. So, Hr. Speaker, on these I am sorry I have been so lengthly but it is a somewhat complicated subject. I tried to outline the background and the picture of this whole matter. I remember that the Opposition wanted the House opened early so we could have a debate on the Come By Chance oil refinery,and the media were very 3960

larch 29 , 1976 Tape 1475 lB-3 HR. CROSBIE: keen on it also, and it has given Me some quiet ~usement to see the tremenous coverage this has al~ had in the media sin ce the debate started , because with the exception of the Evening Telegram there h.~s been practically none. So that if the pe ople of ~1ewf oundlan d want to know ~o.•hat the background of the oil refinery situation is t hey have to come in here in the House of Assembly the111selves and sit and listen !:>ecause they certainly do not get it rom the mecia 1 ~o.rlth the one exception of the Evening Telegram ,,•hich has provided coverap,e.

But is is a peculiar thtng that they demand and c'hey agree r:hat these great .i ssues should be debated,and then when they are rebated they ha rdly give it any coverage at all . It would get coverage, of course, if I said that somebody across the Bouse 1vas a slieveen~and the person across the llouse said that I was a somcthin £; else. MR. DOODY: -~Shaheen! MR. CROSBIE: Yes. That would get some coverage,but it is too bad that these things rl:> not get more coverage when "'e do try to deb ate them seriously. I rei!tem!;cr, !lr .

Speaker, deb a tin& one time here in thj s House for , I think it was three or four hours, the Linerboard ~'ill in 1972 Ot: 3961

March 29, 1976 Tape 1476 PK - 1 Mr. Crosbie: 1973, and it did not get five paragraphs coverage i~ any paper on the Island. And a lot of the things that people are saying today about the Linerboard Mill and this, that and the other on the Linerboard was all covered in that speech in 1973 in the House here. AN HON. MEMBER: Is that available now? MR. CROSBIE: But any long and serious and detailed discussion of any serious topic,it is too bad'! It just does not get the coverage it is not sensational enough or it is not colourful enough.

And the only way that the public can learn about these things is through the media,which makes one wonder whether the House of Assembly is any longer relevant at all to the governing process in this Province, MR. SMALLWOOD: We must make it so. MR. CROSBIE: unless we bring in the television and radio into the llouse and make some system available where perhaps an hour's coverage a day can be selected. I mean we are here, we spend six hours a day here, or eight hours a day when we get really going on the thing. MR. MURPHY: Wasting our fragrance on the desert air. MR.

CROSBIE~ And all we are doing is really talking for the people in the Press Gallery, because if they do not report us it is a complete waste of time. I realize the institution is necessary, you know, for the Opposition to probe etc., ,but one of the original functions of a House of Assembly to inform the public and to discuss the great issues, is gone. We can discuss the great issues all we like in here, but it is lost if it is not given some kind of reporting, thirty seconds on the television or one minute on the radio of an afternoon's proceedings in this House.

I think that we really need to have a look at how we can get some better coverage of the House. I mean,I can certainly appreciate the fact that carrying us for hour after hour, six hours a day would be a bit painful unless you had a special channel for the masochist to switch to and watch the House all day. M], NOT,AN' It is not exactly great entertainment. MR. CROSBIE: But perhaps something of the highlights for an hour or some system like that should be looked at. Anyway that is all hy the by,l suppose.really irrelevant. 3962

March 29, 1976 Tape 1476 PK - 2 Mr. Crosbie: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the official Opposition. They probably will not be when they are finished here, but I think they have adopted the right course to date in this matter, because they have not said much publicly about the situation yet because they are waiting to get the full details and find out what information the government could give, which I now hope that we have given them.

But I think that was the right course, and I myself have appreciated their restraint in this matter, and I do not doubt that they are going to disagree with some of the things that have been done or be critical of this, that or the other. But I do not see anything in essence that they could have done any differently. I do not see how they could have done any better than we have done in the situation. I do not myself see anything that they would have done differently.

And although I have no doubt that they will find some things to criticize, I do appreciate their attitude so far that they have not been making any great attacks, they have been waiting to hear what information the government gave. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the situation as far as I know it on the oil refinery. There will be some other information this week with respect to the men working at the refinery. The Premier has been meeting with the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations and Municipal Affairs and representatives of workers there. Something l<ill be said on that in the next day or two.

The creditors are meeting here for the first time, April 5, and we will try and keep the House informed as matters proceed as to how things are going. It is an unfortunate situation but we have got the oil refinery there, it has got to operate again, as soon as possible. As I told the House last week it is going to cost the trustee $8 million to mothball it and keep it in proper caretaker's status until the end of December, and we certainly do not want running even that long if we can find some reasonable deal to get it operating again. 3963

March 29, 1976 Tape 1476 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: So, Mr. Speaker, that is as much as I can say at the moment anyway, and I thin k I have given all of the information that I can on the matter. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3964

"larch 29, 197ft Tape No. 1477 NN - 1 ~~-· SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. l''"R. S 'ALLWlOn: Hr. Speaker, ~-ould Your Honour say why? Who addressed Yonr Honour first? }IP. . ROBERTS: r~r. Speaker, is this not irregular? To a point of order, Sir - lffi . SMALLWOOD: No, I think the - ~IR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order - MR. S IALLWOOD: -member of the House- NR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speake:;:-, to a point of order. ~~. SPEAKER: Order, please! m.

ROBERTS: The hon. member for Twillingate, Sir, may or may not appreciate Your Honour's ruling but my point of order is this, Sir, that no member has the right to challenge Your Honour's ruling except through the regular procedure which is to appeal by means of three members standing and then a division is taken. Now Your Honour has recognized me. I raised a point of order,and other gentlemen may wish to speak and Your Honour may wish to rule,but short of that T would like to be allowed to proceed with my remarks, Sir. ~m. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Twillingate. J.m. S IALLWOOD : Mr .

Speaker, there is no tradition in Parliament older or more proper than that the first member to his feet should have the first recognition of Hr. Speaker. I am sure I was first to my feet and I am sure I was first to address Your Honour. But Your Honour recognized another member,and he is only a member of the House and I am only a member of the House,but this particular member was the f"lrst to his feet and the first to address Your Honour, but Your Honour recognizes someone else. I ask Your Honour 1,rhy? MR . SP E AKE R~~ . COLLINS): Order, please! '"" l'n!,TE: ~~r. Speaker, to that point of order.

Sir, I was distinctly looking at both gentlemen, for obvious reasons, and to my knowledge my colleagae the hon. Leader of the Opposition was first to his feet and first to address Your Honour. And, Sir, the hon. member for ~villingate (Mr. Smallwood) is challenging the Speaker's 3965

March 29, 1976 Tape No. 1477 1'R. ROl;rE: ruling and,Sir, I might add that this is the last r,entleman who I would have expected to hear a challenge come from, challenge the Speaker on his ruling, the very last person in this House who I expected to challenge the Speakers's ruling in an instance like this. But, Sir, as far as who '~as first to his feet is concerned, the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (J>!r. Smallwood) feels he was first to his feet, I was observing both gentlemen and in my humble opinion my colleague the Leader of the Opposition was first to hj_s feet and first to address Your Honour. ~~.

SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~IR. NOLAN: J>fr. Speaker, on the point of order; I am sure that each day,for example during the Question Period, you could run a national lottery on ~ho is first to his feet. No one ever questions, sure.ly, the position of the Speaker in a situation such as this. He recognizes whatever member it is and no one ever usually argues beyond that point. If it means that I do not get a chance to voice my question at a particular time,! ~Till follow immediately after, or as soon as it is convenient to keep the House in order.

So I for one would certainly not 1vant to raise any question about the decision made hy the hon. Speaker. ''P SPEAKE11 (D!'. C0J,LINS): The hon. member for St. John's North. }'J'. J. CAI'.TER: To that point of order, J>fr. Speaker; although the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) may be more amusing than · the Leader of the Opposition,it was quite clear to tnose of us over here that the hon. Leader of the Opposition was first on his feet. NT'" _SPEAKER (DR._ CQLL.!E!_S): The hon, l"'inister- of Mines and Energy. J>!R. Cll.OSBIE: On the point of order, Nr.

Speaker, I submit to Your Honour that the procedure is well recognized in the House, that the Speaker decides '"ho is going to speak next and whom he recognizes. And it may he that one member got on his feet before another member,but if the Speaker did not see the first member on his feet, the person that he recognizes carries on. That is quite well known. 3966

"arch 2'l, 1976 Tape No. 14 77 N:M - 3 "" C'f?.C1SBIE: In addition, f'r. Speaker, I would also suggest that Speakers recognize the Leader of the Opposition when the Leader of the Opposition is on his feet at the same time as some other member of the Opposition because of the nature of the positions. So on several grounds Your Honour is quite right in recongizing the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition gels precedence in replying to government motions, if he wants to have precedence. "R. S!I!!IONS: Point of order, tl'r. Speaker. "Tl. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please!

I certainly will entertain further discussion on that, but I would just like to inform the House that 1 am prepared to rule on that point of order. The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. HT>. }qn'PHY: 'Roger' is not too bad. Stand up so they can see you. Re hr1.ef new! ''R. S1}'1<0NS: "r. Speaker, in some ways I am not like the member for St. John'~ Centre (r<r. ~<urphy). "P .• lr{IRPHY : l~itty! l.Jhatever chance you had is gone! HR. S!lo/ONS: Thank you. Thank you, 'Ank'. I did not t~ant it announced that you were my campaign manager yet, 'Ank', but an:r·my. Mr. Speaker - I'll. DOODY: Get back in the band.

HP. !' l!PHY: '·That flattery! ITT>. SU<MONf;: He is the band, the bagpipes. }'r. Speaker, the }<i.nis ter of :Mines has stated one of my points that there are clear precedents in both the House of Commons in Britain and in r.anada when tt·70 members stand at the same time and the Speakers traditionally recognize the Leader of the Opposition in that ldnd ·of - 1~. NEARY: If he has been advised. 3967

Harch :>n, 1 rJ7f.. ~m. snr·rm:s: I Tape 1478 RH - 1 No, Hr. Sre~ker! No, Mr. Speaker! And my experience is not nearly as broad as some member's experience. Mr. Speaker, secondly I think it is Horth noting for the record that - and I say this in response to a comment - I heard the member for Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) say that he stood first and he say Hr. Speaker first. I think once and for all we ought to clear up the matter that this is not a shouting match here,and it is a matter of Hho stands first and who is thereby recognized by having stood, not who can shout the loudest, Nr.

Speaker. !laving said that, Hr. Speaker, I certainly am r;lad that you, lrr. Speaker, have seen fit to recognize not only the first man who stood hut also the Leader of the Opposition in this particular instance. 'm. ST''I"PC\1'1\: Order, please! The two Standing Order!' which apply to this point are number 47 and 4P,. No. 47 states, "Every member desiring to speak is to rise in J,is place,uncovered,anrl address himself to 'lr. Speaker," and l18, ''When t wo or more members rise to speak)Mr.

Speaker calls upon the member Hho first rose in his place," and it continues, "but a motion may be made that any member \mo has risen 1he no\v heard' or 'do no\-1 speak: which shall be forthwith put, \•Yithout debate." In response to the point of order raised I am stating that the hon. Leader of the Opposition was the first seen by me to stand in his place. I am not at this point in time prepared to rule whether or not he said anything. But he certainly was the first one to stand in his place in my view, and I ~dll consult the tapes if this is the desire of the House to determine who addressed the Speaker.

But my u~derstanriing of these two rules is that even if one discovered that one or other spoke before the other this would not in actual fact give that person precedence because number 48 does state, "When tHo or more members rise to speak,Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who first rose in his place." It is my ruling that the hon. Leader of the Opposition, I saw him first rise in his place. HR. ROBVRTS: l!r. Speaker, if it is - ~!R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. 3968

~larch 29, 1976. Tape 1478 RH - 2 HR. SPF.!IKER: A point of order has been raised. 'fR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw Your Honour's attention to rule no. 47. Your Honour just quoted it but then went on to 48. " "Every member desiring to speak is to rise in his place uncovered and - the key 'oord, Sir, -''address himself to Mr. Speaker." Now, Mr. Speaker, the question arises no" ''hen both gentlemen stood >•hich gentleman addressed himself to Mr. Speaker. "'!R. P.(IIIJm'I'S: Both of us did. ' iR .

NEARY: 1\oth of them. \,Tell, Sir, then I would suggest to Your Honour in all fairness to both gentlemen that Your Honour send for the tapes to see, to determine, Sir, which gentleman addressed the Speaker first. ?1!L SPEAKER: Order, please: ~ m. HELLS: The point of - 1'!' .. SPEAKF.R: Order,please: Order, please: l' ~ \o.lf:LLS: Oh! I am sorry. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If I may, the House understands, I am sure, that I havP made a rulin? on this matter. There are procedures t hat can suhse<]uently ta1-.e r>lace.

I would not entertain points of order un 1 E'SS they are di recterl tm•ards those procerlures. 'IT;. r.OllF.RTS: ~lr. Speal:er, may I nm• proceed. Is that your ruling, ~~ r. Speak e r? '!P. ~1!'.AR.Y : I do not understand. Your Honour, I made a point of order. " y point of order, Sir, was that Your Honour send for the tapes to see >oh ich gentleman addressed Your Honour first. That is under rule no. 4 7, Sir. That seems to he in order. I If.. P.OBET:.TS: The ruling has been made. ' 'R . HELLS: Sir, the hon. member's point of order is entirely spurious.

Your Honour has made a decision and there is only one course of action open to anyone nmo ancl that j s to appeal it or othenrise. To the point of order, Hr. Speaker, if I may. Are we going tn, e<'lch day, rlurinp; the question period have to resort to the tapes to 3969

lhn:ch 2<l, 1016 . "lR. NOLAN: Tape 1478 IUl - 3 find out which one stood up first ? tf the Speaker made a decision on this , and I agree t~it h tile Rouse T.eader and also the l!inister of Nines and Energy , that he has Made a rlecis ion apparently and we should honour that decision now. HR. !\'F'.ARY: d~t...n.e.eP> NR. SPf:.Al<F.R: 1\'e have to follow the rules of the House, Your Honour. If a motion -Order, please ! - if a motion has not been ~~de that the decis ion of the Speaker be appealed I will call upon the hon . Leader of the Opposition to address the Rouse . 3970

March 29, 1976 Tape 1479 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be no appeal from your ruling, so perhaps I could be permitted to say what I have to say on this motion, and then there will be lots of time for hon. gentlemen on both sides to enter into the debate,including in particular the gentleman from Twillingate Otr. Smallwood). And let me say at the outset, Mr. Speaker, that I for one will listen with a great deal of interest to what the gentleman from Twillingate has to say with respect to this motion.

Because as he as told us outside of the House, I have seen the comment in the newspapers, he regards the Come By Chance Refinery,which is the subject of this debate 1 as being his baby, and I think in a very real and very proper sense that is true.

Let me say along those lines, Sir, that while the rules of this House limit the hon. gentleman in this instance to forty-five minutes as a member, and every member has forty-five minutes only with the exception of the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, both of whom are specifically recognized by our rules, and who are allotted ninety minutes by virtue of their positions, and then the minister moving a government order and the member replying thereto,or alternately a member moving a motion of no confidence, not an amendment, a motion of no confidence and the minister replying thereto,in those two situations those individual members are granted, according to our rules, unlimited time.

The hon. gentleman is only entitled to forty-five minutes. I think in fairness to him and to the House, Sir, he should be given more time than that. And I for one,if the question were to be raised, and I know I speak for my· colleagues on this, will gladly consent to the hon. gentleman been given a great deal more time because I think he will need more than forty-five minutes to - AN HON. MEMBER: To defend. MR. ROBERTS: cevelop- no~not to defend- to develop his points whatever they may be, to give us the information he wishes to give us, and I think he should be given every opportunity to do that. I 3971

March 29, 1976 Tape 1479 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: had thought for a while, I turned over in my mind that I might for this occasion yield to the han. gentleman from Twillingate and let him speak first from those who sit to Your Honour's right, but the more I thought of it -the more that seemed to be quite wrong. The han. gentleman is not Leader of the Opposition, he is leader of a party which has numerically fewer members than , in the House and outside, do the party I lead,or the party who sits to Your Honour's right and form the government, and I see no reason why I should give way in this occasion -for that reason.

But I would certainly be quite agreeable, indeed anxious to let the hon. gentleman have more time if he wishes it, And I do not know if it is in order for me to propose it, but let me say simply when the appropriate time comes~or now if it is so agreed, I would certainly, and I speak for all of my colleagues, Mr. Speaker, agree to let the hon. gentleman have more time. rhe minister needed,what? I suppose the better part of two hours by the time he had put together his remarks, and he did not waste any of it .

There was no needless repetition, there was no irrelevance, there were no meanderings, it was all, I thought, quite relevant to the motion under debate. And I thought it was well and wise that the House should hear it. Equally I am sure that the hon. gentleman from Twillingate would be relevant and not needlessly repetitious. These are the two rules that our House lays down, on matters of this sort, and let there be no questicn at all that for our part, Sir, we would be quite happy to hear him speak at any length he wishes on this particular debate. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: But, Sir, he has no right to speak as the Leader of the Opposition. That is a position which the electorate has not conferred upon him, They may or" may not do that when next we have a general election, but that remains until then. MR. NEARY: He_ has equal rights in this House MR. ROBEITS: I am sorry? MR. NEARY: He has equal rights in this House ·with every other hon. member. 3972

March 29, 1976 Tape 1479 PK - 3 MR. RO'BERTS : Yes, Sir, the gentleman from TWillingate has exactly equal rights with any hon. member according to the rules of this House 1and every hon. member is granted forty-five minutes to speak in any matter before the House with the exception of two members, the man or the lady,as the case may be 1who holds the position of Premier, the man or the lady who holds the position of Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is not true. MR. ROBERTS: Other - Mr. Speaker, that is perfectly true.

Other hon. members get more time only when they speak to lead on a government order or on a motion of no confidence. And I believe the Standing Order is 49. It is not the most elegantly worded Standing Order in the world, Mr. Speaker, but I think the intent is clear. I think the words are sufficiently clear, and I think our practice and our precedents are crystal clear. Does the hon. House Leader wish to say something1 MR. WELLS: Before the hon. member launches into the debate.

I am wondering in line with what I mentioned to members across the House beforehand,!£ the hon. member is not finished his remarks at 5:30 P~M. he will be prepared to adjourn the debate so that we can attempt to deal with the Interim Supply Bill. MR. ROBERTS: Well,! thank the hon. gentleman, and as he said, Mr. Speaker, we had some consultation outside of the House. The consultation has been significantly better the last few davs. I would either - I do not know whether I will need two hours or not to say what I have on this, Mr. Speaker.

I would hope I would not be that long,but if the government wish in the interest of not breaking up the flow of whatever I may have to say, or the flow of the debate since I am just sort of, you know, maneuvering into position in the starting gate, if the government are agreeable-and we were originally, as Your Honour knows, to deal with supplementary supply - I am sorry,interim supply - MR. WELLS: Interim supply. HR. ROBERTS: MR. WELLS: MR. ROBERTS: - as the first order of business. Yes. But I und~rst~nn thRt 3973

¥.arch 29, 1976 Tape 1480 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: while the House met at 2:00P. M, the printers were not sufficiently aware that the House - or either that,or they had their usual practice of being late. MR. WELLS: It just did not arrive in time. MR. ROBERTS: The b:i.ll did not arrive in time for whatever reason. It has now been distributed to the House,and if the House Leader wishes I would move the adjournment of the debate. We could then go into Committee and discuss it according to this one,and then when we come back we do it. I am sorry. Is that in order? If that is in order I will do it.

I mean,I do not know how long we will be in eommittee 1 that is in the hands of the House, but I will move that. l1R. WELLS: That is appreciated. If the hon. Leader of the Opposition would adjourn the debate I would immediately then call the Interim Supply bill and then call this order of business when it is dealt with. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I move the adjournment of the debate, Mr.

Speaker, and my understanding is that when we have finished this bill,whether it takes seventy-five hours or seventy-five seconds, whatever the Rouse chooses to spend on it,then we will go back on the debate and I will carry on on the Come By Chance resolution. Well,I so move, Nr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: In that case I would call the Interim Supply bill, order 2, t~r. Speaker. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! On motion the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR.

DOODY: Your Honour, I have a message from His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. 3974

~:arch 29, 1976 Tape 1480 Ill-2 Order, please: "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required for the public service of the Province for the year endin .g ~larch 31, 1977 by way of Interim Supply , and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended. I recommend these Estimates to th e House of Assembly . (Sgd) Gordon A. Win ter Lieutenant-Governor." On motion that the Uouse resolve itself into Committee of the Whole. Y.r. Speaker left the Chair. 3975

}!arch 29, 1976 Tap~ 1481 IB-1 RESOLUTION: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1977, the initial sum of one hundred and thirty-four million five hundred thousand dollars ($134,500,000). _o'1R • DOODY : Mr. Chairman, the government is asking of the House the granting of Interim Supply in the amount of $134,500,000 for the months of April and }~y under the headings which I have here ~~:lth me and which I will table.

I can list them all and read them all, but I think it will be of little benefit to the House since the bill has them all listed and it will be of little benefit to the House for me to repeat them all. It will be debated in complete detail as we go through the estimates. These amounts are all included therein and this is just the traditional amounts that are necessary for the carrying on of the ordinary business of the government during the first several months of the new fiscal year. MR. ROBERTS: How many months does it include? MR. DOODY: April and May. MR. ROBERTS: Two months. MR. DOODY: Yes. MR.

ROBERTS: Two-twelfths. MR. DOODY: Two-twelfths or one-sixth~depending on how your denture fits. MR. ROBERTS: Or four twenty-fourths. MR. DOODY: That is right. Ad infinitum and ad nauseam. So, Your Honour, I move the granting of Interim Supply. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Young): Shall the resolution as read carry? The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. 3976

March 29, 1976 Tape 1481 IB-2 }W . S! ~IONS: Nr. Chairman, I wish to say a fe"• words to the resolution before you call the question. I recognize of course that with the 1976 budget having been brought down on Friday that perhaps our time can be better served by passing this one quickly and addressing ourselves to the estimates when they are called by department. There are just a few very brief comments I would like to make on behalf of my colleagues. The need is here,of course.

It is the twenty-ninth of the month and in another two days the government will not have any spending authority unless we pass this particular resolution. It makes one wonder again, of course, why it was necessary. Perhaps we will hear when we hear some further comments from the }'inister of Finance on his budget, but it does make on wonder why we did not have access to the budget until March 26, last Friday, just three sitting days, ~r. Chairman,just three sitting days before the end of the fiscal year.

It scarcely allows the kind of time that 1.rould be required to peruse the budget and hence the need for Interim Supply, the neec, I might say, brought on only because of the lateness of the budget. I realize it is customary and I 'lm sure other speakers will say that. But I say,Mr. Chairman, that when we get this near the wire, when we get a budget three sitting days before the end of the fiscal year, I believe it is tantamount to playing with the House, to playing with the members of this ~ouse. I say it is not good enough and we should have had the budget long since. But as I say, Nr.

Chairman, there will be a time to say those things later. I cannot help,as I look at the financial documents before me, the nice pictures on the covers - we graduated in 1974 from a reel line,which must have had all kinds of connotations for anybody who associates colors with finance, but we went from a red line, Yr. Speaker, to a picture, a ~ice picture in one of the budgets - I have lost track of -here we are. There are so many budgets lately. But you must agree that was a nice picture. They had the same picture in a smaller version a little later on. Now we got yet another picture 3977

.. l{arch 29, 1976 Tape 1481 IB-3 tilL SUIMONS: of the sea,most appropria te to Newfoundland. There are some rocks in this one, Mr . Chai·rman. There are some roc ks here thi s time, Mr. Chairman. _AN RON.MEMBER: They are heavy. MR. SIMMONS: Ah ha, are they ever heavy. There are rocks in this one , Mr. Chairman. I wonder if we may deduce from the picture of last year, Ur. Chairman, as opposed to the picture of this year whethe r in that one, 39 78

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1482 Page 1 - mw ~. S IMMO~ S : Mr. Chairman, they were just merely at sea last year~but now they got her completely on the rocks. It would be funny, Mr. Chairman, if we were not in such a serious situation, if we were not so lacking - SO}ffi ~ON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Ah, here they go, Mr. Chairman. I have finally said something that they could understand. Here they go. MR. BRETT: Just look at the pictures. MR . SIMl-!ONS: I will do it with pictures if I have to, Mr. Chairman, I say to the Hinister of Social Services. If it takes pictures to reach him,I will use pictures.

If it takes coloured ones,! will use coloured ones. Somehow, Mr. Chairman, as difficult as it is I will reach that member yet. And thank God it has happened this afternoon. I finally got a rise out of him. Tremendous! He understands. I wonder' does he understand what is behind the pretty cover? While we are talking about pictures and doing this little object lesson just for the Minister of Social Services, why do you not look at the cover? I thought it was only mine, but I saw some others around. There is a little shading on the left. Do you notice that? There is a little shading over on the left hand side, eh?

Last year we were told that this was the mini-budget, but we soon found out, Mr. Chairman, that was the real budget and that the mini-budget was the one brought down in the Spring before the election. We got it really socked to us in the Fall. The picture might be smaller but the shock was a whole lot bigger, Mr. 01airman. Now not only with all the connotations of being on the rocks here, ~!r. Chairman, I would get punny, I suppose, and talk about the shadiness of it all if I could, but perhaps there is a time for that too, Mr. Chairman. On~ wonders if that little bit of shading on the left there - I do not 3979

March 29, 1976 Tape no. 1482 Page 2- mw Mr. Simmons know how it happened, some problem the printer had getting it through Thursday night or whenever he had to run this thing through - but perhaps, Mr. Chairman, he tells us more than we dare admit to ourselves. Perhaps it tells us that the full truth is not out ret. I did, Mr. Chairman, over the weekend in being asked to comment on this particular budget, I did say~ to give credit where credit is due~that I thought at last it could be in some respects called the truth budget. MR. MURPHY: How did you recognize it? MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, I had the benefit of my band leader from St. John's Centre. That is how I recognized it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I do not know, Mr. Chairman, why my good friend, a man whom I dearly respect,always wants to be putting the knife in. I do not know why. It is so unbecoming his nature, Mr. Chairman. There goes the epitome of gentility over there, h,mility in all its forms. MR. MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: I did not pass a nasty remark. Nor I. Who is that behind you? Oh, that is my alter ego back there. That is the member for Coneption Bay South. I do not expect, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment to like the truth of this particular budget. Now the Minister of Finance should be saying that to him,mind you, but I will help him out, because it must be a difficult job convincing that minister of the truth even when it does exist. Mr. Chairman, I called it the truth budget this week and for a very good reason; because at last, Mr. Chairman, the truth is out about what we were really being fed last Spring in the Pretty Picture Budget. and last Fall in the Small Pretty Picture Budget. 3980

March 29 , 1976 Tape no. 1482 Page 3 - 1llW :1r. Simmons. We now kno;t in the "on the rocks budget," we now know tr.e real truth. We now know that all the stories about hospital extension was just getting people to go down the ga.r den path. All the placards and the posters and the huge billboards that we saw in Clarenville about a hospital, that was take the~ for a ~ide, take them for a ride, and we will tell them the truth next Spring . Well,next Spring has come and the bitte r truth is getting out. So I will give them credit, at least, Mr. Chairman, for telling the truth. I will give them no credit, Mr .

Chairman, for the kind of deceit t~at preceded the truth. I will give them no credit for that. I drove down the street 3981

March 29; 1976 Tape 1483 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: in Grand Falls, the atreer that goes down over the hill there pass the hospital, and I must not have been too observant on previous trips down there because I did not realize that they had the !all, Mr. Chairman, to put a billboard up there too, but lo and behold! not only did they put it up, it is still there! They are not even good strategists politically,Mr. Chairman. The least they could have done was paid a fellow $5 or $6 after dark some night to go down and quietly take it down so people would start forgetting it. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: Who put it up there?

Who was the political strategist who put it up there? MR. SIMMONS: I have no idea. The minister could probably tell me. MR. LUNDRIGAN: You have no idea? MR. SIMMONS: The minister could probably tell me. MR. LUNDRIGAN; Sure. It was put up by the hospital board. A!f HON. MEMBER: Which one is this? MR. SIMMONS: Ah, ha! Right, Mr. Chairman, it was1 I would think, Mr. Chairman, put up by the hospital board. And I would hope, Mr. _ Chairman, I know a good many people on that board, and I can say for them, Mr.

Chairman, no matter what the minister implies, no matter what the minister implies I can say that these are reputable, responsible people. And I would say to him, Mr. Chairman, they did not put it up there without some undertaking from government, if there were going to be some money to live up to the promise on the billboard. AN RON . MEMBER: Right • MR. MORGAN: Now keep your cool. MR. SIMI-IONS: Of course the hospital board put the billboard up but they did it, Mr. - MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIHMONS: You do not ~ell the hospital board what to do! - but they did it, Mr. Chairman - 3982

Harch 29, 1976 Tape 1483 PK - 2 HR. Sll!MONS: You do not. Ah, ha! MR. LUNDRIGAN: You do not interfere if you have confidence in them. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member for Grand Falls be quiet! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, had that minister the confidence in the board he says he has, Mr. Chairman, he would have seen to it, Mr. Chairman, MR. LUNDRIGAN: I have every confidence in them. -MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. SIHMONS: He would have seen to it, Mr. Chairman, he would have seen to it they got the money that had been committed to that board.

If he wants to put his demonstrations. of confidence on the line, Hr. Chairman,let him do it in a very tangible way. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I back them up all of the way. MR. SIMMONS: Let him do it, Mr. Chairman, by getting after his colleagues. Has he confidence in his colleagues after they let him do"<n on this one? Confidence is no good, Mr. Chairman, unless you put your money where your mouth is. MR. LUNDRIGAN : They all seem happy enough. ~m. SIMMONS: Confidence is no good, Mr. Chairman, - MR. LUNDRIGAN: J.le are going to build all three. MR.

SI~~ONS: Oh,I can understand, I can understand the miuister getting all worked up and spreading his arms, Mr. Chairman. He has good reason to be frustrated. His colleagues in Cabinet let him down very badly. He was new to it. He was used to picking away on the federal scene, and then he came down to be in a cabinet. And I am glad to see him there. !1R. LUNDRIGAN: I choose the fish plant in Burgeo. MR . SIMMONS: That is why I am glad to see him there. I am glad to sr,e him there. But that does not mean that I agree with everything he does. I do not agree with his supporting - HR. CHAIRMAN (MR.

YOUNG): Order, please! I will ask the members to be silent, please? 3~83

March 29, 1976 Tape 1483 Pk - 3 MR. SIMMONS: I do not agree with his supporting the cancellation of the project in Grand Falls, when my people from Bay d 1 Espoir particularly have to go up there and be accommodated overnight in the corridors. And there is a time lag gven when you get a decision to build a hospital or to build an extension. There is a time lag before all the paint is on the wall and the floors are completed, and you can put the furniture in and take the first patient.

And even if that hospital were to start today, that extension.there would be a time lag and we would still have several more months of putting patients out in the corridor. I know what I am talking about, Mr. Chairman, It has happened in the last two or three weeks, it is happening all of the time, they have an acute accommodation problem there, an acute problem. Mr. Chairman, do I have to take the mutterings of the Minister of Industrial Development or will he accord me the same courtesy he asked me last week to accord him? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR.

YOUNG): A point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I certainly agree with the bon. member. My mutterings where to my colleague to my right here, I said that if he ever got any positionoof power in the Province I would move to Alberta. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, is that a point of order? MR. LUNDRIGAN: And I apologize forthhat, I do not think that I would move to Alberta.! would move to Australia. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, what is the point of order? MR. ROWE: There is no point of order. Ignore it. He is parliamentarily ignorant. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, how cowardly can you get at all. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Speak now without being ignorant. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, you will recall that only last week the same minister was very worked up that we should have the audacity the discourtesy to say "Aye" and "Nay" while he was speaking. And now he gets there and conducts his own little circus in collaboration with his colleagues while I try and make a few remarks on behalf 3984

Harch 29, 1976 Tape 1483 PK - 4 Mr. Simmons: of my constituents, while I try to make a few brief remarks as to t.'hY lve take exception to some of the things that is in this on the rocks budget! Now if I do not have that particular right,what rights do I have in this House? MR . LUNDRIGAN: Carry on! MR. SH!MONS: Thank you! Thank you! I am glad at last the minister has condescended to allow me to carry on. My,how happy a man should !>e! •Jr to take a title from a book on the provision of toilets in Newfoundland schools, How Proud A Man Can Be.

How proud that he should be accorded the privilege by the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development: Now if ever there were a c~ntradiction in terms there it is, Mr. Chairman, Industrial and Rural Development, the member for Grand Falls, Mr. Chairman. MR. MORGAN: The little man of doom and gloom. MR. SIMMONS: Aw, Hr. Chairman, the Minister of Gloom and Doom, the minister and the member of Doom and Gloom is the Minister of Mines and Energy. lve will talk about that in time too. But that is another story.

But let the record show what the public already knows,that the minister, and the menber and the preacher of doom and gloom is none other than the gentleman,who unfortunately now is absent, because I would rather say it to his face than in his absence. But back to this Bill, Mr. Chairman, this resolution which lvould give the government some interim supply. Without it they will not be able to pay salaries of the civil service or undertake or make other financial commitments. T3ey will have no authority, Mr.

Chairman,to authorize expenditures and for that reason we would like to get on with the job, and I would have long since been sat down had I not been so badly intimidated by the Hinister from Grand Falls and by the Minister 3985

March 29, 1976 Tape No. 1484 NM- 1 MR. SD~ONS: from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), the Minister of­ MR. ROBERTS: Best dressed man of the year. HR. SD1MONS: I am just faltering now. I am kind of faltering here, Mr. Chairman, because I am never sure how I should refer to him because I am not sure he said what he said a moment ago in his capacity as member for Bonavista South or as the Minister of Transper·tation and CoiiiiiiUnications, and one must always watch how one addresses the member, minister as the case may be. But I hope he does not get too offended, Mr.

Chairman. nne other comment that I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, while not wanting to prolong this, as we look through the Budget, the on the rocks budget, this one,and compare it with the small pretty picture budget,and the pretty picture budget and the in the red budget - MR. COLLINS: Do not be nasty now. MR. SIMMONS: Truthful,! say to the member for Gander (Mr. Collins), not nasty, truthful. If the truth hurts then my apologies to the member. I do not want to hurt him but I hope I can shake him into some kind of reality because he is a part of this too, ~rr. Chairman.

He is one of the people who is allowed to do what I am going now to refer to and t~hy I have done the comparison of those four budgets, the In-The-Red-Budget, the Pretty Picture Budget, the Small Pretty Picture Budget and the On-The-Rocks Budget. He is the one vho was party to this, Mr. Chairman. He is the one. AN RON. MEMBER: Oh my! Oh my! MR. MORGAN: Finance critic? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, my former colleague in this House, the former member for White Bay South , used to have a line which I always enjoyed and supported completely,and he used to say it- AN RON. MEMBER: Mel Woodward? ~!R. SIMMONS: No. No. No.

The former member for White Bay South, Mr. Bill Rowe1 had a line which I think was as profound as any could ·be 3986

~'arch 29, 1976 Tape No. 1484 N}i - 2 r ~ . SH!J-!ONS: when you are talking about the m~ber for l'oonavista South, and it went something like this, "Shut up Jim or twill come over and knock a hair out of place." That is not mine, }!r. Chairman. I do not even claim - MR. ROBE~TS: That is parliamentary. Fl'.. HORGlu'l: Critic on finance"? lfT' . SI. <}10• S : I do not even claim, 1-'r. Chairman, to be the author of that one. But you must agree, Hr. Chairman - 1-'T.' . HELLS: To a point of order, '-'r. Chaii'l11an, we have passed netv levels of irrelevancy. " R. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Hr.

Chairman, I want to know '"hether the hon. gentleman's remarks are parliamentary and T think tve should have sort of an inquest because I distinctly satv a hair out of place on the head of the best dressed man of the year, the gentleman from Bonavista South, Sir, and I think that is most out of order and should be so ruled by the Chair. ~m . PECKFORD: You are talking about personalities. '~. ROllErtTS: It has nothing to do with personalities, Mr. Chairman. Tt has everything to do with the hon. gentleman's hair out of place, Sir. ~~. NEARY: ¥ r.

Chairman, to that point of order, Your Honour, I b elieve thi n r,s are getting a little bH unruly, Hr. Chairman, and I knov Your Honour i s in the Chair I believe, no,not for the first hu t for about t he t h ird time.

I believe the member for Burgee - nay c1 'F.spotr., Sir, did get a little bit out of hand and lost his self control and t believe even though he was quoting a former member of this House, Sir, that his quotation was unparliamentary and if that sort of thing is allowed to continue Your Honour, you knot•' that the decorum of this House will be lowered severely in the future - SOI<F Hr)N. r-<Et1!3E;RS: Hear! Bear! "P. NEARY: - and we have had that happen before and I hop(' Your Honour tvill hold a tight rein on my hon. friend. 3987

}1'arch 29, 1976 Tape No. 1484 ID' - 3 lm. SH'l''ONS: Mr. Chairman, it takes the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to bring me to my senses, my abject apologies for having done something so unparliamentary and particularly to the one member, Mr. Chairman, who in no way should have that kind of infliction placed upon him at any time. He is so busy, Mr. Chairman, combing his hair and dressing,that why should we give him the pain of worrying about having himself named in this hon. House. To the subject - ~~. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there is a point of order Your Honour has to rule on - MR. CHAIPJ.IAN (~.

YOUNG): I think that I would ask the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to continue his remarks and stay to the resolution, please. }'R. POBERTS: Hear! Hear! Well ruled. MR. SD1!-'0NS: Thank you, Hr. Chairman, an excellent ruling and one of several I am sure we can expect from Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one other comment I have been trying to make here for some time, a comment relating to a deed that I have suggested the member for Gander (Mr. Collins) has been party to. I hope he is not. I hope he can plead absence that day.

I hope he can say that the Premier would not let him in the Cabinet Room that day. I hope that is the case, Mr. Chairman. Because as I look at t