Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 53A (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-53a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 53A ·1:30 p.m., MONDAY, APRIL 27,1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manltobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GIUESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY,Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, Aprll27, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEED INGS PR ESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bob Kuz, Lucille Hiebert, Paul Beaudet and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one-year moratorium on the closure of Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk. READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr.

Lathlin), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 19 88 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and The AJI delivered its report in August of 19 91 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self-gov ernment and the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self-government and a separate and parallel justice system; and On January 28, 19 92, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and Despite the All-Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self-government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong co mmitment to aboriginal self-government by considering reversing Its position on the AJI by supporting th e recomme ndations within Its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re-entering the labour force; and

WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1 ,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 19 92 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to con sider a one- year moratorium on the program.

2589 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it com pRes with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ? The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WH ERE AS the Dutch elm disease control program Is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm trees; and

WHEREAS the Mi nister of Natural Resources himseH stated that, "It is vital that we continue our active fight against Dutch elm disease in Manitoba," and WHERE AS, despite that verbal commitment, the government of Manitoba has cut its funding to the city's OED control program by haH of the 1990 level, a move that will jeopar dize the survival of Winnipeg's elm trees. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the government of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns) to consid er restoring the full funding of the Dutch elm disease control program to the previous level of 19 90. As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. • (1 335) TABUNG OF REPO RTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have two reports to table : The Annu al Rep ort of the Manitoba Research Council for 19 90-91 ; and the Annual Report of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and Fitness and Sport Directorates for 19 90- 91 . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS 811179-The Highways Protection and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that 811179, The Highw ays Protection and Consequential Amendmen ts Act (Loi sur Ia protection des voles publi ques et apporta nt des mo dific ations correlatives a d'autr es lois), be introduced and that the same now be received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been advised of the contents of this bill recommends it to the House. I would like to table the message from the Lieutenant-Governor as well. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Klrkness Adult Learning Centre, 18 stud ents. They are under the direction of Laurel Johnson. This school is located In the constituency of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). On behaH of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Federal Drug Patent Law Government Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we on this side are pleased to see the announcement of the Apotex facility here in Winnipeg.

The announcement today follows on other announcements previous to this with the RH Institute and other proposals being rolled into the new announcement today. In 19 87 we had a resolution before this Legislature dealing with drug patent laws or the compulsory licensing laws of the country. This Legislature was called upon to vote against the federal Conservative government in terms of the provision they were provid ing a drug patent law for the American multinational corporations and for the pr otection of consumer s, our heal th care participants, and for the protection of the generic drug Ind ustry.

Today the head or the president of the corporation very clearly called on all members of all political parties to join together to oppose the federal Conservative government's position on the drug patent law and drug lic ensing provisions, Mr. Speaker, and called upon all of us to protect the generic drug industry in this country for people In health care and for the benefit of drug companies like Apotex that is locating in this province. I would ask the acting Premier: Will he change the government's position on the drug patent law, Mr.

Speaker, and will they now join with the presiden t of Apotex to oppose the federal

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2590 government's position on compulsory licensing in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, notthat I wantto indicate to my honourable friend that in his question

preamble, from 1987 to 1992, he has mixed apples with oranges, the resolution in 1987 and the subsequent legislation led to the investment decision by Apotex in Manitoba. It had no compromise of that decision because that rei nforced the 1 0-year licensing protection, et cetera, that was the basis for Apotex's decision. What, Sir, is at issue, is a January 14 announcement by the federal government that they intend to change that, not the 1987 reso lution my honourable friend likes to talk about, butthe January 14 initiative of further extension of patent rights. Mr.

Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend that the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has raised it at First Ministers' conferences. I have raised it with the Health minister at a conference personally, and my honourable friend the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has likewise raised it with his federal counterparts because we share the concerns that were expr essed today about a change in process that is successful and working for Canada. Mr. Doer: I would refer the members back to many of their own speeches in 1987 in this Chamber.

They refused to support consumer groups, health groups-United Church and many other groups were talking about it down the road in the 1990s, the developments that could happen and could indeed happen. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the acting Premier: Could he table any communication the government has with the Prime Minister changing the provincial Conservative government's position now to be in support of the generic drug companies in this province and in this country and in support of the provisions that were in the 1969 legislation which the president of Apotex is asking us to support in his announcement here today? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend again is trying to confuse the issue and trying to put the New Democrats on the leading edge of protection of generi c drug manufacturing in Manitoba. [applause) While they are applauding that attempt, which is not accurate, maybe they ought to talk to their Health critic and stop her from defending the profit making of the pharmaceutical drug companies that she has been doing for the last three months in this Chamber, a typical flip -flop by the NDP when it is convenient to have two different policies to appeal to people at different times of the week or even the day. Mr.

Speaker, we have consistently, with the federal government, supp orted the gene ric licensing potential, the protection provided to the name-brand pharmaceutical manufacturers, which has led to the growth of the gen eric drug manufacturing industry in Canada, including the investment today. We have, Sir, on a number of occasions, with a number of ministries, expressed our concern and our disappointment and our opposition to the January 14, 1992, announcement which changes the rules of the game. We disagree with that. What my honourable friend is trying to do is mix apples and oranges and flip-flop policy again. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely delighted that this Conservative government has flip-flopped on their position on drug patent laws. Whatever kind of provision or rhetoric they want to use to justify it, I do not care. We are happy that they have changed their position, and we are happy that they are now claiming to be fighting the federal Conservative government that is now trying to extend their 1992 announcement, the generic drug provisions that have put our generic drug industry in jeopardy. I would ask the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey): Can he specifically outline what communication the government has had? Have they raised this with the Prime Minister? Have they raised that with other First Ministers at the meeting? Does he have written communication to indicate their change now to oppose the federal Conservative Party extension of the drug patent law in this country? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased if my honourable friend would now speak to the critic that sits beside him to get her off the case of defending mul tina tionals and pil laging our Pharmacare system. Mr.

Speaker, in 1987, the issue was Bill C-22, and no one is saying to change that, so do not let my honourable friend try to mislead the people of Manitoba.

2591 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 Not only has the Premier (Mr. Filmon) raised it at the First Ministers' meeting, the January 14, 1992, further extension of patent rights which we disagree with, the Finance minister (Mr. Manness) has raised it directly with the Honourable Mr. Wilson. My colleague the Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has raised it with his colleagues, and I have raised it, Sir, with the Minister of Health feder ally because it is not an appropriate change.

The current system is envisioned in C-22; 198 7 is appropriate, leading to investment, leading to diversification in the economic basis of western Canada , bringing the drug manufacturing away from Toronto and Montreal and putting it where it should be, in Winnipeg and western Canada. Federal Drug Patent Law Impact on Labour Force Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): More members of the Chamber could have been at the Apotex ceremony this morning and watched the public spanking of three Tory cabinet ministers, including the Premier (Mr. Filmon), over the Conservative drug policy which this government supported. Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Indus try , Trade and Tour ism. Dr. Sher man indicated very clearly that the implications of Mr. Wilson's uni lateral decision with respect to the elimination of compulsory licensing would mean the end of the generic drug indus try. Can the minister indicate what steps he has taken or his department has taken to identify how many jobs that may cost Manitobans or the Indus try we are supposedly nurturing? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Firstly, Mr. Speaker, as is becoming the pattern far too often, I have to correct the honourable me mber's

preamble. I was at that announcement, and ther e was nothing but accolades from Dr. Sherman and Apotex as it relates to the job of the province of Manitoba. Dr. Sherman knows very well, as the opposition party should know, that we have continually supported the system as it currently exists with compulsory licensing. I have supported it at Trade ministers' meetings.

I have written Michael Wilson back on March 20 of this year outlining very clearly our support for the current system and why we support the current system in terms of what it does to health care costs here in our province and the incredible investment opportunity it presents. So I would suggest to the honourable member that he talk directly to Dr. Sherman and get his facts right for a change when he comes into the House. Mr. Storie: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism did not answer the question about how many jobs it is going to cost. Mr. Speaker: Question , please. •

(1345) Federal Drug Patent Law Impact on Drug Costs Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): My subsequent question is to the Minister of Health, I guess. Dr. Sherman also said that this road was going to lead inevitably to higher drug prices. My question to the Minister of Health is: Can the minister tell us today what these federal initiatives are going to cost the people of Manitoba by way of Pharmacare, and individuals by way of Increased drug costs? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, that is not an answer that can be precisely determ ined, but if the federal government, in their February 14, 1992, announcement carries on the past, it will lead to higher drug prices. That is why, Sir, we have opposed that move at all stages that we can in this government, from the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the Finance minister (Mr. Manness), Industry, Trade and Tourism, myself. We have been consistent. We have not tried to mix apples and oranges. Talk about Bill C-22, 198 7, which is leading to investment in the generic indus try in Manitoba, not denying it. What we are opposing, Sir, as Dr.

Sherman is opposing, is the change proposed by Michael Wilson, January 14, 1992, as a result of GATT discussions. We think it inappropriate because it changes a successful generic licensing and development system in Canada that has ben efitted all Manitobans, all Canadians and continues to do so. Government Strategy Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, Dr. Sherman said it was going to cost us jobs and cost the Pharmacare system and the people of Manitoba money. He also said it threatened medicare . Can the Minister of Health tell us what he is going to do, other than bluster in this Legislature, to protect

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2592 medicare, protect the generic drug industry and create jobs in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): The first thing I am going to attempt to do at all times is not fall victim to what I call the NDP Leader's disease, and you know what that is, Sir. It is mixing apples and oranges and attempting to create a false impression amongst the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we have consistently made the case ever si nce Michael Wilson, on January 14 , announced formally what we were concerned about and made our objections to that change in policy by Mike Wilson as proposed for the GATT negotiations, because we beli e ve it inappr opriate for the Canadian context, for the Manitoba context because it has negative impacts on our ability to have the inv estments of Apotex in terms of high-tech, world-leading industries which are there under the current system for Manitoba to harness because we are the right place to invest for the right reasons, Sir.

School Closure Guidelines Ministerial Review Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, before I begin my question, I want to thank the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Ducharme) for having delivered to me a Manitoba Senior Citizens' Handbook, obviously as a direct result of my having turned 50 yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, last year many rural Manitobans and indeed those who came from rural Manitoba watched with dismay while the Cartwright senior high school was closed through the transfer of students to Killarney, which violated, if not the law or not the guidelines, certainly violated the spirit of those guidelines. Well, last week, Mr. Speaker, ! was in Woodridge, Manitoba, and their elementary school will be closed this June. Last year, they were told by their school division that they could remain open if the student enrollment was between 17 and 20.

It was expected to be 24 until the school division then changed the transfer policy which enabled parents to remove their children from their designated school for the very first time. Will the Minister of Education now review the school closure guidelines? Will she inform school divisions throughout this province that not just the letter of those guidelines, but the spirit of the guidelines is to be followed? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): I am very concerned, as is this side of the House, about schools which may need to be closed in rural Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, and have made every effort with my department to meet with school divisions and to assist those divisions where they have concerns to perhaps look at alternatives and also to explore with them their very specific situation. Education System Transportation Polley Review Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): It is recommended in the province of Manitoba, through again guidelines of the Minister of Education, that no elementary school child should have to spend more than one hour on a bus to go to or from school. Well, the Woodridge elementary students, six- to 12-year-olds, will now be expected to get on a bus at 3:1 8 in the afternoon. They will then go on a joy ride around La Broquerie for 20 minutes until the older students get out. They will then join the older students and start the process home.

They will be on the bus, some of them, for one hour and 43 minutes. We are talking about six to 12-year-olds. Will the minister now review her transportation policy and inform the Seine River School Division that this is an unacceptable transportation policy for elementary school children? *

(1350) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): As I said a moment ago, wherever these issues and these specific concerns arise across the province, I am more than happy to talk about the specific situation with the school division and concerned families from that division. Boundary Review Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Talking is not going to solve the problem for these children. The tragedy is that if these children could go to the nearby school, they could go to one 15 minutes away; only it happens to be in Piney, Manitoba in another school division.

Will the minister now admit that we need to have a review of school division boundaries in the province of Manitoba? Will she recommit herself to her Premier's (Mr. Filmon) commitment of February 18 , 1992, to the Manitoba Teachers' Society and

2593 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 begin that review of school divisions in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): We will not be doing a review of school boundaries at this time because, as I made very clear when I made the announcement, the education system in Manitoba presently has a great number of issues they are dealing with.

At that time, I also made it clear that school divisions may negotiate with other divisions to set up opportunities for students within their divisions, and a school boundary review is not required for that kind of negotiation. Grain Export Ucence Removal Government Position Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the Wheat Board and orderly marketing system have been under growing pressure from a wide variety of sour ces from such pred ictable sources as U.S. -based grain companies to such unlik ely sources as former liberal minister Otto Lang and shockingly even the Conse rvativ e minis ter responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Charlie Mayer. He attacks that which he is empowered and entrusted to protect, Mr.

Speaker, through such actions as abolishing oats from the Wheat Board, removing the two-price wheat system and now, the most shocking of all by the federal Conservatives, the removal of the export licences for grain moving to the U.S. I ask the Deputy Premier: Can he explain to this House whether he agrees with his federal cousins in Ottawa in the removal of the B13 export declaration for grain being trucked to the U.S., and does he now agree that this is a serious threat to the authority and the effectiveness of the Wheat Board? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the member that the federal government, over the past few years, has done more for western Canadian agriculture in supporting than any previous government in the history of this country. As it relates to the trade that has developed between the United States and Canada, this province, over the last three years, has benefitted tremendously in the volume of product that has gone into the United States market via the Canadian Wheat Board. I, Mr.

Speak er, can assure you that this government will do everything we can to make sure that the farmer is put in the best position possible to maximize the benefits for the price which they receive as well as maintaining the integrity of the marketing system that has been put in place in this country. Reinstatement Corres pondence Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, will this Deputy Premier table any correspondence that he or his Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) or indeed his Premier (Mr.

Almon) have had with the federal ministers Mayer, McKnight, Jelinek or any other ministers on this issue, asking for the immediate reinstatement of the export licence for grain moving to the U.S., and if there is no such correspondence, why is there none? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have no correspondence personally. I will ask the Minister of Agriculture to respond to that question in detail when he is able to do so. As far as the government's position is concerned in dealing with the export of products, it Is a position that we have taken that we have to maximize our export opportunities.

As far as the information the member is bringing to this Legislature, I am sure there will be a further response from the Minister of Agriculture. Government Position Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, is this Deputy Premier now saying in this House that he is supporting the removal of the authority of the Wheat Board for grain going to the U.S., destined to U.S. markets, being trucked? Is that what this minister is saying? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): No, it is not, Mr. Speaker. *

(1355) Council on Nursing Education Status Ms. Judy Wasyly cla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, last week in Estimates, I questioned the Minister of Health on the status of the Ministerial Council on Nursing Education, a body that is less than two years old. The minister said then that there had been no change in status except for the resignation of the chair, Professor Trevor Anderson. Now it appears in fact that this council has been disbanded and its activities suspended until some unknown date in the future.

April 27, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2594 I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he would like to have this opportunity now to correct the record to eliminate this false information on the record and explain the status of the Council on Nursing Education. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend had one thing right. The chairman of the nursing council had tendered his resignation, and I had discussions with him very recently about that. That is about the only thing that is accurate, Sir. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister then explain the February 17 minutes of this council, which indicate, and I quote: The chair stated that the Deputy Minister of Health had proposed a moratorium on council's activities and had announced his intentions that the Ministerial Council on Nursing Education suspend its activity for some months. Mr. Orchard: That is significantly different than my honourable friend's allegation thatthe whole council has been disbanded and thrown to the wind. Get your facts straight when you come to Question Period with these allegations, these rumours and this fearmongering.

Yes, without a chairperson, Sir, the activities of the council are suspended until we find a new chairperson. I will even go further, my honourable friend. Should we get into the discussion of the LPN nursing issue, we will have new members on the council and a replacement of some members to put a focus on LPN nursing. Will my honourable friend say then, oh, we are disbanding the old council? Of course, she will. Chairman ReslgnaUon Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St.

Johns): Would the minister like to correct the record and give full reasons for Professor Anderson's · resignation, which according to the minutes of the last meeting of this council, was partly related to the lack of communication between the ministry of Health and this council? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I do not have to correctthe record.

He had an interim report which we have accepted, Sir, and that is all that my honourable friend should be concerned about, because the collaborative program at the Health Sciences Centre accepted students last fall, will graduate students in baccalaureate-prepared nursing in collaboration between the University of Manitoba faculty of nursing and the Health Sciences Centre school of nursing. Economic Growth Retail Trade Sector Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, last Friday, when I asked the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson) why Manitoba had lost some 16,000 full-time jobs in the last four years this government has been in power, the Minister of Finance from his seat invited me to ask questions about retail trade, so I thought I would take him up on his invitation today. Mr. Speaker, if we had today the same proportion of retail sales in this country that we had in 1988, despite the recession, there would be some $300 million more retail activity in this province in this year than there currently is. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance why, after four years of his program, this situation exists.

Why has his program failed so significantly? Hon. Clayton Mannass (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I refute the

preamble of the member, at least the facts behind it. I just point out to him the press articles as recently as last week indeed where Manitoba was lauded for its position in retail actual sales, growth, vis-a-vis other provinces in Canada for the month of February. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I think the member would be glad to hear I just had an opportunity to look at the early forecast for the month of April and once again, sales, actual sales are far beyond those that had been forecast.

Might I point out that the forecasted levels certainly were in a range acceptable or comparable to all other provinces across Canada. Sales are occurring in our province, yes, in a fashion that maybe is not as robust as we would like to see, but let me say, Mr. Speaker, vis-a-vis other provinces in Canada, our retail sales are certainly at a very high level. Mr. Alcock: Well, Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada says that the minister is wrong. We fell further than the rest of the country. We lost a greater proportion of the share than Canada did, and we are not recovering as fast.

I would like the Minister of Finance to explain to us why his policies are failing. *

(1400) 2595 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, they are not failing. Again, the growth for Manitoba at 1 percent is the strongest among provinces. Only B.C. is coming second to us. That was in the month of February. As far as sales tax revenue falloff from forecast, in terms of the '91-92 fiscal year, we are no different than other provinces.

As a matter of fact, if one wanted to look at forecasted revenues '91-92, Manitoba, the grab bag of all of our revenues, and wanted to look at them vis-a-vis other provinces, they would see that ours have held relatively more stable than most other provinces. I say to the member, obviously he is wanting to look selectively at some activity over the last several years. I am forecasting what is happening over the last several months. I am here to tell you, Mr. Speaker, and anybody who wants to listen that we are holding vis-a-vis other provinces. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, sales are up one month to another.

Year to year, we are down some $300 million. There would be $317 million more retail activity in this province if we had just held constant. We have not; we have lost badly. I would like the Minister of Finance to explain why we have lost that $300 million in retail activity in this province. Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Speaker, not accepting the member's figu res at all, in case he is not aware, the national economy is in recession, has been for the best part of two years. That is well known. Mr. Speaker, we have also, in the province of Manitoba, had a lower rate of inflation than any other province.

The member obviously knows that those provinces that have higher rates of inflati on, particularly Ontario up to a year ago, B.C. through the stretch, naturally that is manifest in increased nominal rates of growth beyond Manitoba, purely as a result of inflation. Those are- Mr. Alcock: Wrong, Clayton. Mr. Manness: Well, the member says, "wrong.w The member seems to be so right at everything he says, in his own mind at least, but I say to him, Mr. Spe aker, revenues in Canada and taxation in almost every province, indeed every province, are not what they had been forecast to be. I find that unfortunate.

I wish that were not the case, but the fact is, we are in a national recession whether the member recognizes it or not. Inner City Programs Economic Impact Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, for two years, two Tory governments have jeopardi zed Winnipe g's future. They have offered no new programs or joint initiatives for an inner city with the highest unemployment rate in western Canada, the highest high school drop-out rates in the West and with one of the lowest levels of public and private investment in Canada.

I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs: Has he Investigated the impact of those lost two years on the absolute economic decline of the city and on the lost opportunity costs for both the city and the province, and will he table that report? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, the member for Wolseley, in referring to Core Area Initiative programming, should well know that In fact the program was extended for a year in order to ensure that the money that was allocated in the original program was spent and those programs were carried out, those people were employed and those people were trained. All of those things would not have happened had that program not been extended for that additional year. Ms.

Friesen: Will the minister confirm that the decline of capital investment and the loss of training opportunities as a result of the ending of core area funds two years ago have played a significant role in the comparatively poor economic performance of Winnipeg and that the economic compounding of this will also handicap us in whatever future economic recovery is possible? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, I find it quite surprising that the member for Wolseleywould try and translate an economic recession that is at least North American if not worldwide into a reduction in programming in the core area for which she is wrong. That program, the training programs for Core Area Initiative, are ongoing today. Ms.

Friesen: Will the minister confirm that the federal government's contribution to the new urban agreement consists of a repackaging of existing programs repre senting no new money from a federal government whose entire economic strategy has been to transfer more than a thousand Manitoba jobs to Edmonton and Montreal? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the House on several occasions previously and to the member on more occasions than that, we are still in

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2596 discussions with our two partners with respect to the potential for a new agreement for Winnipeg. We are carrying on those discussions and are hopeful that in the very near future we will have a program that will be of extreme benefit for all Winnipeggers put into place for the next five years. Social Assistance Off-Reserve Status Indians Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, the jurisdictional dispute Involving social assistance for tre aty Indians Is cont inuing. Th e fe d eral government says it will not pay.

The provincial government says It will not pay. Now cities such as Thompson are deciding that if they have to pick up the burden, they may not pay either, leaving the aboriginal people who are on social assistance being the victims. I ask one straightforward question to the Minister of Family Services, and this is on behalf of those Individuals. Will he assure them that the province will not sit idly by and see a situation develop whereby they will lose what little they have in terms of social assistance? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): The question of the jurisdiction for the paying of social allowances is one that we have been dealing with for over a year. Our position on this has not changed. It is the obligation and the responsibility of the federal government to pay for the social allowances for status Indians off reserve. We are currently working with MAUM and UMM officials who support us in this initiative, and we are asking the federal government to live up to that resp onsibility that th ey have maintai ned for decades. Mr. Ashton: In supplem entary, Mr.

Speaker, and once again on behalf of those individuals: What assurance will the minister give to the aboriginal people who once again are being caught in these kinds of jurisdictional disputes, that they will not lose what little they have? These are social assistance recipie nts. What assurance can he give those aboriginal people? Mr .GIIIeshammer: Mr. Speaker, when we last met with the aboriginal leadership, they were onside with the Province of Manitoba in demanding that the federal government live up to those responsibilities.

We are onside with the aboriginal leadership, UMM and MAUM, and we will insist that the federal government pick up those costs that they have been responsible for since the 1960s. Social Assistance Off-Reserve Status Indians Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we can argue about who is going to take what side, but I ask a question. I will perhaps ask It as a follow-up to the Minister of Native Affairs.

What assurance will he give that these people will not be cut off social assistance, or are we going to have to rely on the same government that also has lost the Northern Development Agreement for northern Manitobans, which is a lousy record of dealing with the federal government? Are these aboriginal people going to be the next victims, Mr. Speaker? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I would not want to abuse the rules of the Legislature and take several minutes to point out the proactive and the initiatives that have been started in northern Manitoba to assist the educational programs and the economic development programs to try and make sure that there are meaningful jobs for the aboriginal people. That is what the aboriginal leadership is asking for. They are asking for meaningful programs and opportunities for their people, not welfare.

On the question of making sure that there are payments, my colleague the Minister of Family Services, municipal governments and ourselves have been working very hard to make sure the federal government lives up to their responsibility. Maybe the member for Thompson would put his position forward on the record as to where his party stands. Do they support us, or do they not? *

(1410) Child Care Workers Salary Enhancement Grants Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, the average warehouse worker in Canada earns 58 percent more than the average child care worker, even though child care workers, two-thirds of them, have post-secondary education. The turnover rate for Manitoba child care workers is now 30 percent annually. Ontario, even in the midst of a recession, is providing $30 million additional funding to raise the salary of child care workers.

2597 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 In light of these abysmal salary levels and very high turn over rates, why has this government, through its fee restructuring program of last spring, eliminated the Salary Enhancement Grant for child care workers in daycare? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member likes to bring forward examples from Ontario. I have been trying to stay away from referring to Ontario, but I will tell you, if you want a $14-billion deficit or a compara ble one In Manitoba, the re is a tremendous number of things we can do.

The report that the honourable member refers to was a national report dealing with the wages of daycare workers. I would point out that only Ontario has a higher rate of pay for daycare workers than Manitoba does. Manitoba places second in terms of the average salary of daycare workers across Canada. Ms. Barrett: Second out of 1 0 when even the first out of 1 0 is 50 percent of- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Private Child Care Centres Government Support Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Why is this government continuing to support pri vate for-profit daycare centres when the average salary for those child care workers is 25 percent less than the even-be low-pov erty wages paid to nonprofit centres? Why are you continuing to suppoi1- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Spe aker, th e vis ion of our government is that people should have a choice of what level and kind of daycare they wish to access.

I point out that the member for Wellington and her party have only one vision of daycare, and that is not one that we subscribe to. We support family daycare, we support the daycare centres, and we also support private daycare so that Manitobans can have a choice in what kind of daycare they wish to access. Child Care Workers Salary Enhancement Grants Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, why is the provincial government cutting its support programs for child care workers' salaries through the elimination of the Salary Enhancement Grant and other elements of the fee restructuring program when the Manitoba Child Care Association and severai- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we are continuing our dialogue with many of the advocacy groups in the daycare community. As I indicated to the member, we support a variety of daycare services throughout the province of Manitoba.

If she is making the point that daycare salaries are a national problem, it is a problem that all provinces are looking at. I can tell you that Manitoba places second among the provinces in terms of the salaries that are paid to daycare workers at this time. Recreation Centre - FHe Street Roof Repairs Mr. Doug MarUndale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, since Winnipe g Housing Authority is now part of the Manitoba Housing Authority and therefore under the direct responsibility of the Minister of Housing, can the Minister of Housing tell the House and the tenants on Fife Street what he is doing today to ensu re that proper repair s are made to the recreation centre so that it can be used again as It was Intended, to help the children of that public housing as soon as possible? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I can advise that last week the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority had the roof repaired at that building at a cost of $175.

They inspected It on Thursday, April 23. It was not leaking. Subsequent to that, a further leak developed. We have now employed a consultant to look at replacement of the roof, and that decision should be taken very shortly. Federal Co-op Housing Program Minister's Correspondence Mr. Doug MarUndale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Housing for his very straightforward answer on Friday in answer to one of my qu estions, but I would like him to expand and tell the House: What proof do we have that he has conveyed his opinions in the strongest possible terms to the federal Minister of Housing or Minister of Finance about cutbacks to the co-op housing

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2598 program? Would he table correspondence with the federal minister? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, as a matter of fact because I have explained it to him, the Council of Ministers of Housing from Canada met on April 1 0. We, collectively, as 12 Ministers of Housing, transmitted that position to the federal Minister of Finance and the federal Minister of Housing.

Our current chair, who happens to be the minister from Ontario, was to have delivered the message personally to the Minister of Housing within the last week or so. Impact on Labour Force Mr. Doug Martlndale(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, will the Mini ster of Housin g for Manitoba table correspondence he has made with the federal minister or at least indicate how many jobs are being denied to Manitobans since there is a loss of economic activity and a loss of new construction to Manitoba? How many jobs are we losing? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Well, Mr. Speaker, for the moment at least, no jobs have been lost.

We are hopeful that after discussions on a national basis with all Ministers of Housing from every province and territory in this country, our offer to the federal government for them to reprioritize existing funding in order to meet those requirements and for our agreement to undertake a review of our methods of operation, things like the Manitoba Housing Authority can save $3 million in operations. That will translate into a lot of new units for people if we can accomplish that right across the country. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St.

Norbert): May I have leave for a nonpolitical statement, Mr. Speaker? [Agreed] Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, I am extremely proud today to rise to congratulate a young gentleman from the riding of St. Norbert. Mr. Speaker, David Hohl fulfilled a dream that I am sure most of us would give our ey eteeth for. David was selected to represent Canada on the nine-man freestyle wrestling team at the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona, Spain.

David first became interested in wrestling when he was introduce d to the sp ort at Ryerson Elementary School in Fort Richmond, an interest he continued to pursue through junior high school. Upon entering uni versity, he joined the University of Manitoba Bisons wrestling team. It was during his time on the university wrestling team that his goal of making the Olympic team began to materialize. Throughout his career, Mr. Speaker, as a wrestler, David Hohl has always put in the effort and concentration needed to excel in his weight class.

In 198 6, he won the Espoir Cup, the world junior event, In the 74 kilogram class. Since moving up to the 82 kilogram class in 1 988, he managed to hold his own and to qualify for the Olympic team. Canadians and Manitobans can be assured that in David Hohl, they have a medal contender and a great competitor. I am sure that all young men and women on the Canadian team will be great ambassadors for their country and tum in their best performance ever. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the members of this House and all Canadians, I would like to extend my best wishes for medal success for David Hohl and the rest of Canada's Olympic team. Thank you very much. *** Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed) Mr. Ashton: This past weekend, R.D. Parker Collegiate from Thompson did extremely well at an international music festival in Los Angeles, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, two bands from Thompson achieved the distinction of receiving silver medals and were asked as a result of that to also play at Disneyland, which was quite an experience for the students. In fact, I would like to extend my congratulations to the 55 students involved in doing so well at the Knotts Berry Farm Heritage Festival and also to Bob Miller, the director of the music program, Mr. Speaker. As a former graduate of R.D. Parker Collegiate, I have watche d with in tere st in subsequent years, not having had the opportunity in my day of participating in the kind of music program that exists currently.

I have seen how excellent a job the program has done and through such dedicated work of individuals such as Bob Miller. The fact that two Thompson bands could go to Los Angeles, California and win silver medals, I think, is a credit to them and to this province as a whole. Thank you.

2599 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 *** *

(1420) Mrs. Shirley Render (St. VHal): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (Agreed] As many of you know, April is dental health month, and taking a regular look at the health of your teeth and gums is one of the five points which make up the five-p oint prevention plan advocated by the Manitoba Dental Association.

I would very much like to commend the Manitoba Dental Association, as part of the dental health month this year, for holding for the very first time ever on Saturday, just this Saturday past, April 25-the faculty of dentistry at 790 Bannatyne held a free dental clinic for all Manitobans. General dentists, specialists and their dental teams were av ai labl e through out the whole day for consultations, relief of pain and instruction in oral health care, and also in cleaning and fillings and repair. Again, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the government, and I am sure all of my colleagues here in the government, congratulations to the Manitoba Dental Association for taking this very inn ovative and practical approach to dental health care. *** Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I wonder if I might have leave for a nonpolitical statement. (Agreed] Mr. Spe aker, this nonpolitical announcement would have been more appropriate Friday morning, on the morning after a tremendous win by the Winkler Ayers, a Manitoba Junior Hockey League team, but we, for some reason, did not get to nonpolitical statements Friday morning, Sir.

Mr. Spe aker, I rise in the House today to congratulate the Winkler Ayers of the Manitoba Junior Hockey League, a team which is in my constituency, for becoming the first Manitoba team in five years to win the Anavet Cup. The Anavet Cup is the championship series between the top teams of Manitoba and Saskatchewan Junior Hockey Le ague s. The win ner of the serie s advances to the Centennial Cup which will be held here at the Winnipeg Arena from May 1 to May 9. The Ayers defeated the Melfort Mustangs three to one Thursday night in Winkler to win the best of seven series, four games to one.

This virtual sweep of the series shows how strong the Winkler team has become in the 13 seasons they have competed in the Manitoba Junior Hockey League. They have won the league championship for two years in a row, and this year coach Peter Derksen led the team to an impressive first place finish of 42 wins, five losses and a tie, setting a new league record, Sir. Jamie Penner, a native of Winkler had 54 goals and 84 assists for this season, making him top scorer, and goalie Robin Cook had a league record goals-against average of 2.67. Truly, Mr. Speaker, an excellent accomplishment.

As I mentioned, the Ayers now advance to the Centennial Cup that begins this Friday in Winnipeg. Another Manitoba Junior Hockey League team, the St. James Canadians, from the constituency of my honourable colleague the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will act as host team for the series. In conclusion, I would again congratulate the Winkler Ayers for winning the Anavet Cup Thursday night and wish th em, along with St. James Canadians, best of luck in the Centennial Cup. I know all members of the House will join me in wishing the Winkler Ayers success in that they become the Canadian champions, Sir.

Thank you very much. Commmee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Ut ili tie s and Natu ral Resources be amended as follows: The member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) for the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale); the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) for the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for Tu esday, April 28, 1992 at 10 a.m. (Agreed] I move, seconded by the member for Swan River, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) ; The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), for Tu esday, April 28, 1992, 8 p.m. (Agreed] Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): I move, seconded by the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the composition of th e Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows:

April 27, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2600 the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner); the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) for the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). [Agreed] I move, seconded by the member for Niakwa, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) for the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey); the member for Springfield (Mr. Findlay) for the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson); the member for St.

Norbert (Mr. laur endeau) for the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose); the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) ; the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). [Agreed] House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before I move the Supply motion that will take us into Estimates, I would like to serve notice and ask for an opportunity, if possible, to rearrange the Estimates program for tonight. Mr. Speaker, I only do so because one of the government ministers cannot be in attendance this evening.

I would ask that the deputy House leader, over the next half hour, try to find whether or not there can be a fill-in department to sit tonight in some of the areas as yet unreviewed; and if indeed there is that finding of a department, that we be allowed, at five o'clock, to report that to the House without going through the Supply motion again so that indeed we can sit tonight at eight o'clock, only if there is an agreement amongst the three parties that some other department may act as a stand-in at eight o'clock. Mr.

Reg Alcock (Acting Second Opposition House Leader): As I understand the request that the Government House Leader has made, he is simply serving notice that he will be coming back to ask for leave to make such a change. Is that correct? He is not asking for any leave at this point? Mr. Manness: Yes, in essence, the member is correct. If Indeed we cannot find agreement amongst the three parties to find a department that can stand in, then obviously there will not be leave. Mr. Speaker: We will ascertain at five o'clock whether or not there Is leave. Mr. Manness: I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, whether there is a willingness to waive private members' hour. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Is there leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Leave is denied. ORDER S OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. ..

(1430) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Sup ply, meeting in Room 255, will resum e consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2.(

b) Health Promotion, Protection, and Disease Prevention, on page 83. Shall the item pass? Ms.JudyWasylycla-Lels(St. Johns): Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, with re sp ect to the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education which has been cut off from all provincial funding, an issue we discussed in the House on Friday, I am wondering if the minister could give us some information pursuant to his answer, which was that some of the needs met by this association would be met in the field, in the regions. I would like to simply know, in the case of a 16-year-old girl at Seven Oaks Youth Centre who is

2601 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l 27, 1992 pregnant and goes into labour, who will provide the labour companion support for such an individual? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would obviously not have an answer to that, and I do not think my honourable friend would want me to be bringing, would not expect-h ow would I put it nicely to my honourable friend? Surely my honourable friend would not expect me to be able to answer that question of the one individual at Seven Oaks Centre surrounding that individual's access of the health care system. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, obviously we are not dealing with a spe cific individual. We are dealing with a type of situation for which I am sure there are, have been and will be many other examples. I was asking about who, within existing services, would someone call if they wanted a labour companion for a 16-year-old girl going into labour who has been at the Seven Oaks Youth Centre. le t me ask, while the minister is searching for that answer, In the case of young street kids who suddenly go into labour and have no family supports, who they tum to for labour companion support?

In the case of abused women who are in a situation where they have no one to turn to and need a labour companion, who do they tum to? Who do aboriginal women coming In from isolated communities with no family here In the city of Winnipeg turn to when they need labour companion support? Could the minister tell us, so that we can advise people who call as to where they can turn to for such support now that the association that appeared to be providing that kind of resource, help and support is no longer going to be able to do so. Mr.

Orchard: First of all, when my honourable friend Indicates when people call the NDP and the opposition for those kinds of answers, I wonder if my honourable friend might refer them to the ministry, so that they can get as good advice as the ministry can provide through no doubt a number of areas.

So the first thing my honourable friend could do with these people who are phoning her personally, or her caucus, she might refer those individuals on to the professionals in Healthy Public Policy area, and we will be glad to seek details of what their individual circums tances are and to provide them with appropriate advice. St. Boniface Hospital has a labour companion program, for instance, and Planned Parenthood certainly has volun teer s wh o can assist in circumstances such as my honourable friend first brought up.

That might be a solution that my honourable friend could be referring to the individual she first referenced. Ms. Wasylycla-Lals: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just in terms of clarification, as I understand it, the St. Boniface Hospital has Its own program, but in fact uses the services of this association as much if not more than some other associations. Planned Parenthood, does not-and I have done a fairly thorough analysis of the different organizations and what is provided-dupli cate services provided in this area from the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education. *

(1440) I think what we are dealing with here is a series of needs that will not be met as a result of the cancellation of all provincial funding to the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education. I would like to know, from the minister, how that gap will be filled, where people can tum to on a general basis for things like labour companion support. That is very fine for the minister to suggest, when we have individual cases, we refer them to his department.

I would like to know on a general basis, so that we are not just reactive in responding to constituency cases, we are advising the community generally where they can tum to for such supports. I am wondering, what do we now say, who can we now say provides, for example, labour companion support for women in particularly difficult, unique, isolated circumstances for which there is no other organization meeting that need and for which there is no group to provide support or assistance? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

De pu ty Chairp ers on, my honourable friend might know and be aware then, if she has done her substantive research, the City of Winnipeg public health department provides service as-{inte�ection] I understand that. The member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) says, a good public health department. No doubt, he has every reason to believe that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, within the ministry of Health, we have public health nurses who provide that kind of support or advice in terms of seeking support. There are other organizations, not the least of which, Planned Parenthood. Planned

April 27, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2602 Parenth ood , you might recall, provided new immigrant expecting mothers with translation services in terms of their accessing of the system. That continues. Youville Clinic provides support to new mothers. So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my honourable friend, no doubt, believes that this service must continue. That has been the whole case of her focus in questioning because there are no other alternatives. That is not the case. There are other alternatives and other alternatives will grow to meet needs.

What we are talking about here is an attempt, by government, because we do not have unlim ited resources, as much as possible, to provide more complete services from a number of remaining institutions. That means some changes in the current access of services. Now, again, my honourable friend would make the case that the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education, without the support from the provincial government, will no longer exist. Well, that may or may not be, but they certainly have the option of approaching other funding sources and achieving a continuation of their service.

I simply want to indicate to my honourable friend that it would be inappropriate for her to conclude that there currently are not, nor will there be in the future, services for individuals such as my honourable friend has brought up as examples. Those services currently are accessible and there is certainly capacity and ability within the remaining system to provide them and to develop them, if necessary. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Rather than prolong this debate or get into a debate around this issue, I would just simply ask a few questions pertaining to the basic criteria around the program.

Could the minister simply provide for us a list of clients, not by name but by category, who will be affected by the withdrawal of funding to this association? I asked that based on the department's own letter to the association indicating that there will be some clients affected.

Could the minister indicate if it can be justified that no other organization or capacity within government is able to pick up some of the services provided with this association, that reconsideration will be given for some form of funding and, finally, that if the minister has some concerns with this association and the delivery of services, that the minister indicate what those difficulties are and how the organization could improve its service delivery to meet those concerns of the department. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we will attempt to provide as much of the information as requested as we are able. We will try to get that as quickly as possible. I have indicated to my honourable friend that in today's environment of funding, I realize that my honourable friend is of the philosophical belief, as New Democrats in opposition are, that you simply carry on, provide all the money and more that everybody wants and you do not make choices in prioritization.

Well, I have indicated that rather than cut back a small amount from everybody's funded grant, we attempted to prioritize our grants to areas where we believed there were alternate services either currently available or readily developable and this is one of them.

Now the easy decision I suppose would be the decision my honourable friend is advocating of continuing the support, borrowing the money to do so or cutting a program elsewhere in the department to do so or cutting another program of government or going out and borrowing the money so future gen er ations will pay for it-not the cu rrent generati on-or raise taxes, all of which are responses traditionally used by New Democrats in the past and maybe now. It is hard to say. We will not know until Thursday of this week as to what Ontario does when they bring their budget down. Nevertheless, we have made a decision.

Now, my honou rable friend finds th at unacceptable. I would not expect her to agree. My honourable friend never agrees with decisions of this government, but the test will be a New Democratic government, should it ever come back into the province of Manitoba, as to whether they would reinstate all of these grants and funding.

I would suggest that what we might be witnessing here in this discussion of these Estimates is the sort of circumstance around expectations that was created around the Bob Rae government in Ontario where from opposition they advocated everything in sundry be paid for and funded by government, and that was from opposition. Then when they got into government, they all of a sudden one by one started sloughing those old opposition obligations and commitments to the people of Ontario, because government is a little more realistic. That is why governments across the length and breadth of the country are saying we

2603 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 need to find ways of managing our budget better, finding more appropriate use of the resource and where we can avoid duplication, to access more completely alternate services, and in making those decisi ons and choices, curtail funding in some areas. That is a choice that we made in this case. We do not believe that we have left, bereft of service, a group of Manitobans. We do believe that there are current alternatives to the service and certainly the ability to build on current service alternatives to serve these people. * (1 450) Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the minister can put his own interpre tation on my questioning, but he cannot Ignore the fact that what we have been asking for all along is simply explanations for some of these decisions and some indication that they· were based on objective analysis and that certainly that we would have a more fruitful debate If we could understand this cutback in a broader framework, and if the minister could have explained in some detail what the problems were with this association, or If there was significant duplication of services, but we have not really been able to ascertain that. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Rather than prolong this, I would simply indicate that on this side of the House, we do value the importance of community-based groups If one is moving from a more institutional hospital-driven system to a more cost-effective community-based system. So we start from that basis.

Secondly, we would look at funding for such efforts on the basis of objective analysis and appreciation for the contribution of that particular organization to meeting the needs in our society, which in the long run not only meets the needs of important groups of people, but also takes some stress and pressure off the hospital-based system.

Let me just ask if the minister could give any advice in terms of this association, the Association for Childbirth and Family Education, If there are areas that it should be fine-tuning, improving, working on and if there Is some way it could reapproach the government for some assistance. Are there other areas that it could turn to in the provincial government, given that this whole area of childbirth and family education is a provincial health re spo nsibility?

Could, for exa mple , this organization seek funding from the Health Services Development Fund if it could demonstrate the provision of a community-based service that In fact took some pressure off the hospital end of the health care spectrum? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think some of those discussions have already taken place. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister indicate what lines within the Department of Health the minister has referre d this organization to for consideration In terms of provincial funding? Mr. Orchard: I think discussions have taken place through Women's Health. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: If time permitted, I would certainly like to pursue more detailed answers from the minister, but obviously the Minister of Health may feel that tim e permits, but we have used a consid erab le amount of time of the overall Estimates allotment. In the Interests of keeping agreements, we will try to keep Health Estimates down to a generally agreed upon period of time.

Let me ask a fur the r que sti on ab out the cross-cultural counselling unit that we talked about last week which also ties in to this Association for Childbirth and Family Education, since the common deno mi na tor appe ars to be se rv ing our ethnocultural community's newcomers to Manitoba. The minister indicated that the major reason for not considering funding for this particular program was that they only heard about the request four weeks before the end of the core area money running out.

By all accounts, well-documented accounts, this program, th e cr oss-cu ltu ral counse lling un it began discussions with the Department of Health, specifically Mental Health Services division, since the fall of 19 91 . I would like to ask the minister, what constitutes contact with the de par tm ent, and what happe n ed to the deliberations between the counselling unit and the Manitoba Health Services branch? Mr.

Orchard: I do not have my briefing notes in front of me from approximately the 20th of March or thereabouts in the House, but at the time the issue was raised, I was Informed by my staff that they were asked to participate in a request for funding meeting, approximately four weeks prior to that. That was when my ministry was asked formally for dollars in this current year's budget.

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2604 My honourable friend appears to be saying that is not accurate, and thereby calling into question the advice that I received from my senior people in the me ntal health division. I guess I have some concerns about my honourable friend's approach in this regard . I am indicating the answer I gave toward the end of March is consistent with the advice I got from my senior people in the ministry of Health.

If my honourable friend is saying that answer was inaccurate, she is saying that the advice that I received on the issue from my senior management staff is inaccurate. I do not take that lightly, because my staff are not in the habit of presenting me with incorrect briefing information.

If my honourable friend has got some cute little game around the issue that she wants to draw out this afternoon, just please get to the point, indicate what was said, when it was said, if it goes back to last fall as my honourable friend is trying to allege that the issue of funding for this goes back to last fall, because that is not the indi cation that my staff had given to me four weeks or so before my answer in the House toward the end of March. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Clearly, this is a sensitive area for the minister. I think that-(interjection] Mr. Orchard: Yes, it is when you call my staff "liars." Ms.

Wasylyc la-Lels: Mr. Acting Depu ty Chairperson, thank you, I appreciate the Minister of Health coming to order and calming down a bit. His shrill response on matters of this nature today does not give those observing any sense of confid ence in terms of the minister's responses. What is clear, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, is that this issue first came to light in February 19 92, when funding ran out, Core Area funding ran out for the cross-cultural unit. That is when the questions were posed in the House. However, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is clear by all accounts that negotiations had been going on between the cross- cultural counselling unit and the Department of Health, specifically the Mental Health Services branch, for a considerable period before that, a period much longer than the four weeks that the minister suggests was the case. The minister suggested that if I dare make these suggestions and point this out, then I am suggesting members of his senior staff are not telling the truth.

Well, I am not here to point fingers at anyone except the Minister of Health , who is wont to not put all the information on the record and to dance around questions.

I am here to suggest today that, In fact, by the minister's statements he is suggesting that the chairperson of the Mount Carmel Clinic Board is not telling the truth, who has clearly docum ented and included in letters that negotiations had been going on since the fall of 19 91 . * (1 500) I would hope that the Minister of Health is not about to suggest that volunteers using their time and energy and resources to meet the needs, and very important needs, of inner-city residents and people in our communities is not telling the truth.

I would hope that he would get away from this business about feeling there is some hidden agenda, and somebody is out to get the minister and simply do what is decent and honourable and clear up the record and indicate when did discussions begin. When did the department first learn about the needs of this program? When did discussions take place, and would he stop using, as an excuse, the suggestion that the organization did not have its act together and did not come to the minister until four weeks before funding ran out?

That is a disservice to the community, a disservice to the volunteers and a disservice to the Mount Carmel Clinic. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is my honourable friend who is getting shrill in her frustration with having a direction that she can put on the table in terms of a direction that a New Democratic Party in Manitoba might take in health care. My honourable friend is now trying to discredit the information. Now she has directly said that the negotiations were going on last fall with my Mental Health Division for funding. That is what my honourable friend is saying.

She is nodd ing her head. Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with all due respect to my honourable friend, that was not the information that I was provided by that very same division. That was not the information that I provided to the House, because that was not the information that was provided to me by my Mental Health Division. Now, to make this issue come to a reasonable conclusion, I would suggest to my honourable friend that we wait with patience until my mental health line comes up. When I have those individuals here who provided me with the information that I shared with

2605 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 my honourable friend in the House, then my honourable friend can mak e these same accusations that they were wrong, that they were in full discussion about funding last fall, or whatever my honourable friend's allegation is, but, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have to tell you that I am getti ng jus t a wee tad disappoin ted in my honourable friend's approach. My honourable friend's approach has nothing to do with the system of health care.

My honourable friend's approach has everything to do with trying to pick up on every issue, whether it be one of action of government, of inaction of government, generally, without any placement or any recognition of how it can fit within the system of health care. I have explained to my honourable friend the background to the decision of reduction of the grant to the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education. She disagrees with it. She believes we should provide the money. Well, that is fine.

The challenge will be whether New Democrats in the future, should they ever reach government, would do that. I suggest they would not, because Ontario, Saskatchewan, B.C. are experiencing an entire fli p-flop of NDP from opposition to government. Now, my honourable friend is not satisfied with my answer that there are alternate services available. Well, you know in terms of labour companions in 19 90-91 , I am told that the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education provided 38 such labour companions for immigrant-refugee people.

It is also indicated to me that the capability is there for that service to be picked up by Planned Parenthood of Manitoba. I am informed that there were seven native labour companions provided. I am given the assurance that this can be picked up elsewhere In the system. I mean, it is not as if we are talking about literally thousands or tens of thousands of people. We are talking about 38 over a period of one year. I know my honourable friend does not agree with everything we do, but we do not do things knee jerk. There is potential for alternative service delivery in the system.

It will not be as perfect tomorrow or today as it has been in the past, if this association is not there, but there is nothing preventing the system from growing in to backfill through existing organizations and programs the kind of service to 38 immigrant-refu gee women in childbirth or seven native women in childbirth. Other alternatives can and do exist and will be utilized, and that is the background under which we made the decision. Ms. Wasyly cla-Lels: Mr.

Acting Depu ty Chairperson, whether we are on this line or the mental health line or any line, I will continue to ask the minister for his answers pertaining to Information provided to this committee and to the Chamber. It is the minister who is accountable, and he cannot continually try to blame someone else, blame staff, blame a committee, blame whoever, but never take full responsibility for decisions that he makes and words that he puts on records. Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, it may be a small matter for the Minister of Health to be dealing with inconsistencies and inaccurate Information being presented to this committee and to this House, but those are not small matters for us or for any of the commu nity organiz ations who are really the scapegoats of this minister's tendency to look for someone else to blame and avoid taking responsibility. I am not going to go on about these issues this afternoon, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson.

We went through this last year when the question about funding for the Immigrant-Refugee Health program under Planned Parenthood came before us, the minister then tried to suggest that that project could not be considered for funding at that time because of the lateness of the hour that this organization got its request to the minister and to the department.

We learned very quickly that was not the case, that we were dealing with a long trail of paper and meetings and requests, and that the minister was dead wrong in suggesting that this organization had not come to the government as quickly as it should have with respect to a funding request. We now know it is the case for the cross-cultural counselling unit.

Not much we can achieve by pursuing this line of discussion except for the record to show that the mi nister ha s not been straightforward with situations revolving around such important projects serving women, our ethnocultural communities, newcomers to this province and so on. Let me ask on a separate matter. Could the minister indicate the impact of the elimination of the grant to the St. John Ambulance organization? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, you know, I really appreciate my honourable friend's sincerity at trying to approach the Estimates correcting where she believes, in her humb le

April 27, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2606 op1n1on, information that has not been properly brought to the Chamber.

I really accept my honourable friend's caution and I hope it represents a little bit of a conversion in her own style, because you only have to go back two and a half weeks ago in the Chamber where you had my honourable friend stand ing up and saying that we sat on a report in government on anesthesiology for eight months and on the 30th of March slapped it on the hospitals and forced them to make decisions, all of which was absolutely false, but my honourable friend never ever, ever mentioned that. She was caught with false information in the House.

The report came on the 24th of March, the me eting was held on the 30th of March. Government never dir ected the hospitals to do anything. My honourable friend was absolutely wrong and presented false, misleading information in the House, but she did not recant, retract, apologize or anything. That contrasts rather dramatical ly with the next day, her bench mate who sits behind her, the critic for Family Services, came there with an incorrect bunch of information about how quickly a child received service when he was wandering on the street in diapers on a cold morning in Manitoba.

The allegation was there was no service because of the changes we had made when in fact the individual received service within 20 minutes. Do you know what the critic for Family Services did? She came to committee and apologized for putting the wrong information and the wrong impression on the professionals who delivered the care. Has my honourable friend ever done that when she has come to the House with these wild and woolly and yelling and shouting accusations that she is wont to do all the time, when she has false information and presents it wrong in the house? Have we ever heard any recanting of that? No.

But in my honourable friend's pious approach to Estimates this Monday she says, well, every time we get said something said wrong or that we think is wrong or that we want to believe is wrong we are going to draw up the minister to it. Fine, carry on, but look in the mirror. • (1 51 0) Point of Order Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, I think, on a point of order, the minister has just suggested that I have been putting false information on the record . Now, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I believe by our parliamentary rules there is reason here to question whe ther or not the mini ste r should not be withdrawing some of his remarks because, in fact, we are dealing with a situation for which there is a clear dispute about the facts. I stand by my facts and I trust and believe the words of anesthesiologists in this province who know and have reported to me very well when the report by the two outside consultants from Ottawa and British Columbia was completed and when another consultant was hired to fix up that report, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. I stand by my facts.

If the minister wants to dispute those facts, he is entitled to but he has no business suggesting that the information I have brought to this House is false and he should withdraw those remarks. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I should point out to all honourable members that the use of unparliamentary language at times can border on

interpretation, and the record would clearly ind icate that there should be caution in all address ings of answers and questions. I would just caution all members of the implications of choosing their words in asking and answering questions. *** Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am waiting for the answer. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Orchard: I accept my honourable friend's

interpretation of how she presented what she believed was factual information, which was not factual information, yet my honourable friend insists on defe nding her record. Well, that is all right. That is fine. That means that if somebody comes to you with wrong information like the nurse who came to this microphone at the debate the three of us were at and described the circumstances around her discharge from hospital which was wron g, you accept that as fact because the nurse said it. Well, that does not make it true.

I am indicating to you that I do not have the luxury of repeating falsehoods in this House or in this Estimates process, and neither should my honourable friend. St. John Ambulance has been provided with a grant over the years in order to offset the training costs of Manitoba Health's nonprofessional staff in rural areas primarily which required them to access the Service. That grant has been discont inued, and it is expected now that, in part or in whole, it will be made up by payment of registration fees.

2607 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 Ms. Wasylycla-lels: It is interesting that when someone else relies on information that is contrary to the minister's

interpretation of the world, that is not telling the truth and that is lying, but when we come to this Chamber with clear evidence from reputable sources in writing ind icating that the minister had not presented the information in full or had misled -and I do not know, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, H that is a proper word-had certainly not presented the situation as it appeared in docu me ntati on-if I have said any th ing unparliamentary, I will withdraw it. I did not mean to do that. I am not trying to suggest that.

All I am trying to say is that it is interesting that even when we have docume ntation showing that the situation is not as the minister presented It, the issues are not as the minister described them, the minister still is able to suggest that this is not his problem, that is not his doing, he is not responsible and that someone else-in this case, it is the chair per son of the lon ges t sta nding com muni ty-based clinic in the province of Manitoba-who is not telling the truth, or it is a well-known anesthesiologist in this province, or It could be a nurse, but Interestingly, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when it is not according to the picture that the minister wants to present to the world, then it is someone else's wrongdoing. Let me get on with some of the other organizations that have found their grants reduced. There is a reduction in the grant, I believe, to the Village Clinic for its AIDS information line, and I am wondering if the minister could explain that reduc tion. Mr. Orchard: The grant reflects cost of utilization. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister explain what that means? Mr. Orchard: The budget was for a given level of utilization.

That utilization was not achieved , so the budget that was projected was not required. We do not pay for services that were not accessed. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Is the minister saying that there was less uptake in terms of calls to the AIDS information line for information about AIDS? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is the reason for the reduced actual support. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: I will certainly be looking into that further.

I find it hard to under stand that there would be fewer calls in a year when there has been more concerns, more news stories, more issues around the whole AIDS disease than at any other point in our history. I find it interesting that the minister is suggesting less utilization of an AIDS information line at a time when every other such program, line, clinic on this continent has found an increase in requests for information due to some fairly well-known reports about people with AIDS. So I will certainly come back to that at some point.

Could the minister provide us with Information about the Street LINKS program which is now without provincial funding? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let us go back to Village Clinic. Their actual expenditure last year was $62,600. That was below what was budgeted. We expect this year that they will have $63,800, an increase over what they actually spent last year, not a decrease, as my honourable friend is alleging, but we are projecting an increase.

Last year's utilization, I believe, was budgeted for circa $75,000 or thereabouts, but their actual expenditure that they could claim expenses for services provided was $62,600, and this year's budget reflects a slight increase over that. I realize my honourable friend will not accept that as any kind of logic. Now Street LINKS, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we dealt with Street LINKS and the circumstances under which we are curtailing the support to the City of Winnipeg in this fiscal year. It was a two-year pilot project in funding with evaluation to follow through.

In the meantime, again, because there are other potential areas, organizations and some funding support available, this one being unique but not absolutely alone in terms of trying to access that target population, we are Intent on reconsidering, as the Social Planning Council has recently ind icated to government we ought to reconsider, the issue of funding to these. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) • (1 520) Their criticism 15 years ago was that there was no consistency in funding.

There would be bridge funding, pilot funding, pilot project funding and there was no consistency, and when the funding was over from government A or level of government A, the program had to then go into remission or dissolution and then be, If able, re-est ablished with funding from a new source. Their suggestion 15 years ago was

April 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2608 for government to attempt to come around the issue, understand who the service providers are, where there is commonality of purpose and where government can make a better use of the existing resource from all sources to focus on the problem. We think that is good advice, and we wantto move in that regard.

That means making better use of substantial dollars that come from the provincial government, the City of Winnipeg, the federal governm ent, Core Area Initia ti ve, Winnipeg Foundation, the United Way and often through pri vate fundraising of various dimensions, all focused on organizations attempting to resolve problems amongst target population groups in the core area. I happen to believe-and I think the figures I used, and I am not sure whether it is 97 or 96 different organizations serve the core area's varying needs, some of them with certainly a lot of commonality, some with diversity.

Surely it is incumbent, as the Social Planning Council, I think, has come to the conclusion, that government ought to take a look at the plethora of organizations delivering programs, at the overall commitment of taxpayer dollars, be it municipal, provincial or federal and certainly charitably-raised dollars to United Way and certainly foundation dollars, like Winnipeg Foundation, and attempt to provide an overall focus on program delivery which avoids the potential for duplication of services, so that agencies with close to common purposes may well have to be collapsed into one delivery agency with one progr am, in stead of paral lelin g administration and service delivery vehicles in a number of streams.

Within government, and this is what I tried to explain to my honourable friend on Friday morning, we have brought together such functions within the ministry of Health as Administration and Finance, and in joining those programs, we have had staff layoffs which have ensued, which have saved the budget but which have not compromised the services, and when we are doing that in government because we do not have the spare dollars to carry on every method of governing that we inherited, so we are saying to all of our funded agencies and institutions, likewise, look at areas where you have common approach, common opportunity to combine your resources to deliver your services, and we are going to get around this issue with Street LINKS in that fashion.

You know what, I will make a prediction to my honourable friend that we will end up with a better ability to deliver services within the existing budget and be able to deliver better services, more focused and more outcome oriented than the current plethora of funding through a multitude of agencies. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister indicate when and under what organizational level of government the target group served by the Street LINKS program will have their needs addressed? Mr. Orchard: No, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I cannot, but I will repeat the answer I gave on Thursday of last week, seeing as how we have unlimited time. I indicated that in discussions with the chair of my ministerial advisory council on AIDS that this was a challenge, because they discussed the issue of the discontinuation of funding from the provincial government to the City of Winnipeg to undertake the Street LINKS project.

My advisory committee happens to believe that this has been a reasonably effective program and they believe it has merit, but I think It is also fair to say that my committee members understand the challenge that government has faced today because they are taxpayers, they are program deli vere rs who are on my AID S Advisor y Committee. They know that government does not have a pot of gold that they can dip into or a money tree they can pick from, so they are interested in streamlining and co-ordinating service as best they can within government and its funded agencies.

When I discussed with the chairperson, last week I believe it was, the potential of having my AIDS Advisory Committee which has membership including the City of Winnipeg Hea lth Department-Ms. Joan Anderton is there. We have represe ntation from a numb er of di ffe rent organizations on that advisory council. We have a diversity of rural, urban, native, et cetera. We have a very good balanced committee.

When I talked this concept over with the chair of the committee, he believed that his sense of the advisory committee membership would be that they would undertake such an overview of government on this particular target program or this particular disease entity with a great deal of dedication and knowledge and come to some probably pretty reasonable recommendations from government. We are exploring that, and at the next advisory

2609 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 committee meeting, it will certainly be an agenda item for discussion. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am wondering If the minister could tell us, and I may have missed this last week, whatthis new initiative is as listed on page 33 of the detailed Estimates? It is a $250,000 initiative? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is the amount of money that we envision to have at our disposal to bring, if you will, a healthy public policy approach to youth, drug and alcohol service provision across the province. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Just a couple of questions on immunization. I am wondering if-there were reports recently in our media here in Winnipeg that steps were being taken to ensure coverage of one of the vaccinations dealing with meningitis. I do not know all the proper terminology. I am wondering which vaccination that is and what is happening exactly? Mr. Orchard: Yes, the immunization program that my honourable friend is referring to is immunization against haemophilus influenza type B. Apparently this influenza type B is a cause of meningitis in very young children.

There are apparently three, I think it is three, manufacturers who have vaccines that are available. They are apparently complementary to, is the appropriate phraseology, to the current OPT immunization and can be undertaken as young as two months. It is our intention to launch midsummer this immu nization program starting at infants two months old.

We have made the decision-! guess this is not privileged information- to utilize the Connaught Laboratories vaccine because it is more economical than the others and requires only a single injection which we think is much more comfortable to the infants that will be receiving the immunization. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: On a separate issue, I am wondering what is the policy of this government with respect to current proposals being made for immunization against hepatitis B? Mr. Orchard: I do not have that right now.

We will have to check with-th ere has not been a recomme ndati on that has com e from the professionals within the ministry to under take such an immunization program. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I would apprecia te a follow-u p to that, and if the minister could let us know his response to the national advisory committee on immunization which apparently has recommended some sort of a mass vaccination program against hepatitis B. * (1 530) (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) I believe that position has been endorsed , I may have it wrong, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, let me seek clarification on where this more recent request for universal immunization against hepatitis B program has come from, since I had unde rstood some of this was coming from the national advisory committee on Immunization and the Canadian Paediatrics Society. I could be wrong, and I am certainly willing to get as much information as I can on what It means. Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend might possibly be confusing HIB which is haemophilus influenza type B vaccination versus he patitis type B vaccination.

HIB is influenza type B and that is, I . think, the recommendation that has been made within the last six months and which we are embarking upon, as I indicated . Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am still looking for more clar ification. I am reading from a Canadian Diseases Weekly report that indicates that the National Advisory Committee on Immunization has concluded that to achieve significant control of hepatitis B In Canada, universal Immuni zation should be implemented . Mr. Orchard: I will have to get detail on that. I have not had any recommendation to undertake that. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: One other question on a separate matter and that has to do with Lyme disease. I want to ask again about a specific individual whom the minister will be familiar with, Elizabeth Wood, who has been raising concerns for months and months about her own situation and that of her daught er, Lizzie .

I am still trying to understand this issue and seek clarification and wondering if the minister could give us an update with respect to her situation, whether or not he believes that all the necessary diagnostic testing has been done and whether or not the evidence is so conclusive that Elizabeth Wood and her daughter cannot be treated for Lyme disease. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I am making an assumption here ; my honourable friend can correct me if I am wrong. Do you have the permission of this individual to be discussi ng their medical circumstances in this committee?

April 27, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 26 10 Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have the permission of this individual to raise it wherever I can on whatever basis. If the minister would like to deal with this issue separately, that is fine. I am asking the general issue as it relates to this individual case. This person has been very much a lone voice around the whole issue, and I am wondering if the minister is comfortable that we have in place totally reliable diagnostic testing to be able to determine if Lyme disease is generated anywhere in Manitoba. Is it present in any Manitobans?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. De puty Chairpe rson, my honourable friend one time asked my personal opinion. I will give her the opinion that I have come to based on professional advice, because in terms of Lyme disease, as with other disease entitles, I am unable to have a personal opinion. I can only offer to my honourable friend professional opinion which comes from the best professional advice that I can access. I hope my ho nourabl e friend is not expecting a personal opinion. I will try to give my honourable friend a full and complete answer on this.

Lyme disease is a multistage, multiorgan disease that can mimic many other diseases. The only diagnostic feature is erythema migrans, a characteristic rash which develops in up to two-thirds of infected individuals within a few weeks of infection. Delayed effects of Lyme disease are not specific. Lyme disease is caused by a bacterium which is carried and transmitted by the deer tick, Ixodes dammini. Specific diagnosis of Lyme disease is very difficult because the laboratory blood tests presently available cannot distinguish the infectious agent, Borrelia burgdorferi from other bacteria.

Many persons in Manitoba have positive tests for Lyme disease, but do not have erythema migrans. Manitoba has pr ovisionally id entified 12 cases of Lyme disease diagnosed in 19 89. However, only a few of the ticks which carry Borrelia have been found. Recently an international workshop on Lyme disease was sp onsored by the Laboratory Centre for Disease Control, Health and Welfare Canada and the Canadian Infectious Diseases Society. This group with representation from Manitoba looked at Lyme disease in Canada. The following conclusions were reached: No. 1, Lyme disease is transmitted only by the deer tick.

The wood ticks which are so common in Manitoba, are not good hosts for Borrelia. Number two, the field studies which have been done by Dr. Galloway, Entomology Department, University of Manitoba, are sufficient to demonstrate that Manit oba does not have an establishe d populati on of Ixodes ticks. This makes it very unlikely, though not impossible, that someone will contract Lyme disease in Manitoba. It means that Manitoba is not an area which is endemic for Lyme disease. Number three, when Lyme disease is common, as it is in the northeastern U.S.A., it is easy to diagnose because of the rash described above.

There are no definiti ve reports of the characteristic rash in Manitoba, again making it unlikely that Lyme disease is being transmitted here. Number four, the blood tests for Lyme disease are very inaccurate when used to test persons who li kely do not have Lym e dise ase, i.e., most Manitobans. In that case, most positive tests will be positive because other bacteria share the same chemical structure as Borrelia. It is recommended that testing not be carried out unless the patient has been to an area such as Connecticut where infected deer ticks are known to reside.

Now, those four recommendati ons recently emanated from an international workshop on Lyme disease sponsored by the Laboratory Centre for Disease Control, Health and Welfare Canada, and the Canadian Infectious Diseases Society. Currently, we have this action underway. In light of the above, Manitoba Health will continue to emphasize the general wisdom of avoiding tick bite s.

Summa ry of the workshop and an information sheet have been distribute d to all physicians to ensure thatthey are aware ofthe signs and sym ptoms of Ly me dise ase, the recommendations regarding laboratory testing, and their recommended treatments. In addition, public health agencies will follow up reports of erythema migans to determine whether a particular area of the province may have become infested with the deer tick. We need to monitor, of course, for clinical cases of Lyme disease for ticks and for the vector Borrelia burgdorferi as required. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I do not really pretend to know enough about the medical properties and scientific terminologies around Lyme disease to get into the detail of the kind of statement that the minister just read into the record.

261 1 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 I am wondering if he can give us some indication, If he believes that we have all the proper diagnostic methods to be able to say definitively whether or not Elizabeth Wood and her daughter do not have Lyme disease. I simply asked that based on a June 199 1 statement from Manitoba Health which stated, and I quote: It is anticipated that the limitations of current methodologies will be overcome by new and emerging diagno stic methods that will greatly improve the reliability of diagnostic testing.

So I am just wondering If that could be a factor in terms of the current ongoing concerns of Elizabeth Wood. What progress is being made to improve diagnosis of Lyme disease ? * (1 540) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I understand the disease, where the deer tick is prevalent, the first symptom is, of course, the concentric infection around the bite site and that, with knowledge of physicians and individuals in Connecticut, northeast United States, immediately tells one that they have been bitten by an infected deer tick.

It is at that point in time that they can make, I guess, a quite positive Identification that the individual would suffer from Lyme disease if treatment was not undertaken. It is my further understanding that, at that stage of the game, I think there is a fairly routine course of pharmaceutical that is utilized and is effective at mitigating almost all of the effects of potential Lyme disease.

The difficulty that you have after that initial bite and the concentric rings, which is your best indicator, is, as I have read in here point No. 4, which came from the international workshop on Lyme disease sponsored by the Laboratory Centre for Disease Control, Health and Welfare Canada and the Canadian Infectious Diseases Society, and that being that the blood tests for Lyme disease are very inaccurate when used to test persons who likely do not have Lyme disease , i.e., most Manitobans.

In that case most positive tests will be positive because other bacteria share the same chemical structure as Borrelia, and it is recommending that testing not be carried out unless the patient has been to an area such as Connecticut where infected deer ticks are known to reside. So that what as I understand the experts are saying is that after the fact-a month, three months, four months or several years after the fact-of potential infection with Lyme disease it is most difficult to make that definitive diagnosis because of the inability to accurately detect the presence of Borrelia burgdorfe re.

Well, that is the difficulty as I understand that the Wood family has in that they sincerely believe that Lyme disease is the problem . The difficulty is, medicine as modern as we have, it is unable to confirm that without question, and that has led to the concern that this Individual has. Therefore the action plan of the government of Manitoba is again on the hea lth promotion information side. We are emphasizing the general wisdom of avoiding tick bites.

Sum maries of the workshop and an information sheet-and I will have a copy of the Information sheet here for my honou rable friend this evening -have been distributed to all physicians to ensure that they are aware of the signs and symptoms of Lyme disease and the recommenda tions regarding laboratory testing and the recommended treatments. In addition, public health agencies will follow up reports of the presence of erythema migrans, to det ermine whether a particular area of the province may have become infested with the deer tick. So we are providing information to physicians and public health officials.

We have the ability through a phone number to access our current information in the ministry to provide it to physicians and to public health workers. Secondly, we are continuing through another initiative through the Department of Entomology to do the survey to see whether we have the deer tick as compared to the common wood tick, and should we have the presence of the deer tick in Manitoba, and particular emphasis being on the southeastern regions of the province, that will alert us to the potential that we may have a problem with Lyme disease in Manitoba.

So I think the ministry has taken this issue exceptionally seriously. I know I have, and that information pamphlet has been developed and distributed with as much precaution around It and as much information and public education around it as we can undertake. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it was very interesting to hear two politicians talking about medical diseases, and certainly both of them have done quite well. I have the same concern as the member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis), and the issue here is-1 would rather not discuss this person's whole Illness on the record because I do not have the permission from her, but certainly it has been public knowledge.

April 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 12 Can the minister tell us has he made any effort through his Department of Health to meet with this person and try to come up with some of the difficulty she is facing? Her family is going through a lot of stress. There are problems in terms of some of the professional help she has got. There is some problem in terms of the testing. There also is some problem in terms of her coverage when she has to go out of province to get some of the treatment done.

So I just wanted to know how successful has the ministry been in terms of meeting some of her demands or providing her with an explanation for some of the major issues she and her family are facing. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as long as this is the same individual, and I believe it is, members of my staff have been, I cannot say how recently but certainly on a regular basis-1 will put it this way, not an infrequent basis, were meeting with this individual and providing as much advice and guidance as we could around how to access the service and how to access professional advice and diagnosis.

I think, and I believe I am accurate in this, I believe the diagnosis has been inconclusive in this family's case. Again, I am not going to read the reasons behind it, because I think my honourable friend would understand the difficulty they have, after the fact, of assuring clearly that it is, in fact, Lyme disease, and the bacterial agent is the one that causes Lyme disease. That is why this was a very unfortunate situation. I do not what else we can do within the ministry or within government to try and assist this individual.

Because of the concerns that indi vidual has expressed about the disease and her lack of knowledge, I think it Is fair to say that we took a number of proactive steps to try and inform the general public, physicians, and care providers. * (1 550) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly I will convey to this individual about the discussion which took place over here, because she has been to my office and, I am sure, a lot of other offices. She has been working quite hard, and as far as I can understand, she is still not convinced that her problems have been solved.

Some of the probl ems are not within the Department of Health, they are outside the jurisdic tion. They are probably the College of Physicians and Surgeons. She has some difficulty there, but I am certainly not in a position to discuss those issues here. My next issue is very important. I would like the minister to address this issue in terms of-what is the policy of this administration In terms of making public or having a policy in terms of the AIDS carrier, either the health care providers who have AIDS virus or have a terminal illness?

What are the directions the minister has given to the various regulating bodies, how they would like to see the issue resolved? As far as I can tell, right now across this nation each and every province is really working hard on the Issue. When you go to each and every group, they have a different viewpoint on how to tackle the whole issue with AIDS, the ethics, and also how long the professional can work in a given setting, what are the rules and regulations. Things are changing very fast.

There are other groups who are concerned that you cannot just be emotional about the issue and not tackle the problem and not come up with a clear-cut policy. That has certainly put many professionals under the microscope, and certainly sometimes there have been problems in terms of how long a person should be functioning in a given capacity as a health care provider. The second issue is, when the patients are admitted in a given institution whether the staff who is providing them care, they should know that this person has such-and-such problem. I do not think those issues are resolved In Manitoba.

I would like to know whether there has been any discussion from the Department of Health with the professional organizations such as the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Dental Association, nurses' union and other health care professionals under the umbrella of Manitoba health care professional association. I think there has to be some policy directions, and I am not expecting a yes-or-no answer because it is very difficult. It probably will take some time and may change in the future, how we will deal with this issue. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I think my honourable friend probably recognizes that there are two issues here. There Is the professional care de live rer issu e. In othe r words, where a professional care deliverer, and of course the most recent example being the one of, I believe, a

26 13 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 19 92 dentist-how their respective associations deal with indivi dual member s as caregiver s of tha t professional association, how they deal with HIV infection and continuation of provision of care. Then, of course, the second issue, the issue that has come up from time to time and, I submit to my honourable friend, will continue to come up, the issue of what is the obligation for care providers to know of the potential infection status of one of their patients. I mean there are the two Issues.

This gets exceptionally complex, and it comes right back to the original premise which was quite hotly deba ted at the time of maintenance of confidential ity around the identity of those individuals who have been Infected with the HIV. The decision was made, and I think this is with a few exceptions in the free world , that the health care system ought to provide absolute confidentiality around the individual who is carrying the AIDS virus.

The reason for that being that discrimination Is possible and any number of other activities-or any other reactions, I guess is fair to say-by society at large or in the workplace or any number of areas, that if people who were identified were subjected to that kind of potential reaction that they would probably not seek knowledge around their infection or whether they carried the infection.

In the conclusion that was come to In terms of today's environment of discussion was that It was more valuable to have the individuals undergo the testing to determine whether they were In fact infected so that then with counselling and with advice from professionals they could guide their professional conduct if they were a professional care deliverer, or they could guide their personal conduct if they were an individual accessing various services of government.

Now, I will openly admit to my honourable friend that is very much a system based on trust, but in terms of the professional side-and let us deal with that one fi rst-m y mi nistry has under taken discussions, well, I suppose ever since AIDS became an issue, over the last number of months for sure with professional associations around some of the complex discussions they are going to, because I think it is fair to say that the current practice is certainly being debated very vigorously in physician associations at the college level and the dental associations across Canada, and nursing and other care providers as well.

Again, their discussions are balanced by that del icate balance, in this case of the right of the public to know versus how do you assure a system where people will freely seek to be tested for the presence of the virus and do so knowing that should they be positive in terms of the virus, that they will not become instantly ostracized from their work or their contribution to society or their activities as a citizen. I suspect that over the next couple of years we will deal with that issue in a very reasoned fashion.

I cannot state where those professional associations might conclude in terms of policy identification, but I think they are providing more and more counselling and more and more direction and more and more moral suasion on their individual members, that when they become identified positive that they take absolutely extraordinary precaution if they continue to practise in care delivery, that they do not pass that infection to their patients inadvertently. That has led to, I think, quite a debate.

The issue was really brought front and centre with the tragic portrayal in Rorida, I think it was, of the young woman dying because of infection, I believe, by a dentist In that case again. You know I am simply not competent, nor if I were competent and knowledgeable, I would not be able to comment on the specifics around that issue except to say in general that it was absolutely tragic.

But, by happening-this is very diff icult to say-but by the fact that it happened and had the kind of publicity around it, I think It sent a bolt of shock through all professional organizations that they had better handle this in a most professional manner internally, and brought the whole issue back for informed discussion again. So, as difficult as this is to say, I think that young woman did not die in vain through tha t ver y unf ortunate infection through a professional caregiver, or at least that seems to be the circumstance in that case.

I am confident that the professional associations will develo p appropriate policies to assure safe care delivery through their professional deliber ations.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-53a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 53a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	90a22ba8c9ed3640418d295934ce2f3f5c3d1280

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