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November 4, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L119 - Mon 4 Nov 1996 / Lun 4 Nov 1996

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

OMA AGREEMENT

FIREFIGHTERS

DIABETES

SENIORS' HEALTH SERVICES

POLICE SERVICES

RESEARCH AWARDS

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB

APOLOGY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

REUBEN BAETZ

ORAL QUESTIONS

OMA AGREEMENT

TEACHERS' COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

OMA AGREEMENT

NATURAL GAS RATES

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

HIGHWAY 402 IMPROVEMENT

NORTHERN HEALTH SERVICES

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

TOURISM

ONTARIO LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD

OBSTETRICAL CARE

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

PETITIONS

SCHOOL BOARDS

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

EDUCATION FINANCING

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

HEALTH CARE

SCHOOL CURRICULUM

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

WORKFARE

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

LONG-TERM CARE

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

SCHOOL BUS SAFETY

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT AND CONSULTATION IMPROVEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 AMÉLIORANT LE PROCESSUS D'ÉVALUATION ENVIRONNEMENTALE ET DE CONSULTATION PUBLIQUE

The House met at 1334.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

OMA AGREEMENT

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): The results are in: a unanimous decision by the OMA to reject the agreement. All doctor groups, all specialty groups from all regions across the province have overwhelmingly said no to Jim Wilson. Why did the medical profession reject this deal so decisively? Because they knew it was a bad deal -- bad for doctors and, most importantly, bad for patients.

Let me try to capture for you the extent of the rejection of this deal: 91% of critical care physicians, 100% of cardiovascular surgeons, a staggering 95% of interns and residents, and 96% of medical students all rejected this deal, all said no. Sixty-eight per cent of the doctors in Mr Wilson's region and 68% of the doctors in the Premier's riding of North Bay voted against it. In the Deputy Premier's riding of Parry Sound, an overwhelming 87% saw through this government and rejected this bad deal.

This is just another example of a crisis in our own health care as produced, planned and managed by the Minister of Health. Jim Wilson is moving across this province destroying hospitals, gutting health care and now putting patients at risk. I think we should hold a referendum on whether to reject Jim Wilson and watch the overwhelming support roll in. It doesn't take much to recognize that he, the Minister of Health, is the area of greatest concern in our health care, and that really needs to be cut.

FIREFIGHTERS

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): This weekend I had the opportunity to attend the banquet of the Whitney fire department in the town of South Porcupine and I had an opportunity during that banquet to speak to many firefighters who were in attendance about how they felt about what this government is doing around Bill 84.

The Solicitor General has brought to the Legislature a most regressive bill that is really a slap in the face of firefighters across this province. They're telling the firefighters that they're going to do a number of things, but one of the things that makes absolutely no sense is that they're trying to tell firefighters they're going to take away their right to strike. Firefighters in the province of Ontario have never struck. They have never been in a position where they've withheld their services from the people of this province.

Because they are professional and because they care about the people they protect, they've always respected that they try to negotiate a contract at the bargaining table and try to do so without going out on strike. This government is saying it wants to take that away because it doesn't believe in workers' rights.

There are going to be firefighters from across Ontario coming to Queen's Park on Wednesday. I know, having met with the professional force on the weekend, that at least 16 firefighters from the city of Timmins will be coming down here to join their brothers and sisters at Queen's Park to try to say to the government of Ontario, "Stop this attack on firefighters."

It is one thing to try to reduce the deficit of this province, but when you try to mix your ideology with that by taking away people's rights, such as you are with firefighters, it has nothing to do with your agenda and has everything to do with attacking the hardworking men and women of this province. I say shame on you.

DIABETES

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): My staff has classified this speech as No Sugar Tonight because November is Diabetes Awareness Month. Diabetes is a chronic disorder that affects the body's ability to break down sugar for fuel. Diabetes is the third leading cause of death in Ontario and Canada after heart disease and cancer. More than 500,000 people in Ontario have diabetes -- that's 1 out of 20 Canadians. Diabetes doubles the chance of heart disease and stroke and is responsible for 25% of the cardiac surgery, 25% to 40% of the kidney disease and 50% of the non-traumatic amputations.

On September 27 of this year, Minister Jim Wilson announced a reinvestment of $5.8 million to expand diabetes education programs and services and create four new regional diabetes networks across Ontario. This is similar to the highly successful programs already in operation in the north.

I would like to pay tribute to Jennifer Haskett from Lucan, Ontario, who recently published a cookbook entitled No Sugar Tonight for diabetics, including favourite recipes for campers and the staff of Camp Huronda, which is operated by the Canadian Diabetes Association.

With continued education and expansion of services, our aim is to reduce these life-threatening complications by 50% within five years. We continue to hope a cure for diabetes is not too far off.

SENIORS' HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): In recent months we have heard a great deal about the challenges facing Ontario's health care system. The government's so-called hospital restructuring program is of course not a program of restructuring but rather the dismantling of the health care system Ontarians need and deserve. This issue is of particular concern to Ontario's senior citizens.

I urge the Premier and the Minister of Health to listen to the advice of agencies such as the Task Group on Transitional Care, a coalition of 15 seniors organizations. The task group reminds the government of the need for flexibility when determining the length of hospitalization, recognition of the need for an intermediate level of care, the expansion of long-term-care facilities to replace any elimination of chronic care beds, and the establishment of more accessible after-hours clinics to absorb the reduction in emergency room care.

Senior citizens have worked throughout their lives with the expectation that when they are in need of essential services like the health care system, care will be available to them. Rather than concentrating only on the fiscal bottom line, I urge the government in the strongest possible terms to respect the dignity of Ontario's senior citizens and their basic health care needs. Governing is about compassion and concern for society's most vulnerable citizens, not only the financial bottom line.

POLICE SERVICES

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): On October 29 representatives of over 50 community organizations condemned the Tory review currently being done on civilian oversight of the police. The community representatives expressed a number of concerns, which I share, that call into question the government's basic commitment to the principles of civilian oversight. The major concern is the lack of consultation that has occurred with the broader community in the province, particularly with groups that have repeatedly called into question the accountability of the police and the functioning of the police complaints process.

The Ministry of the Solicitor General began this action by calling together a so-called summit, the delegates to which were handpicked to ensure that the pre-determined responses directed by the government in the discussion paper would indeed result. Then the ministry entered into post-summit consultations with a very select group representative of police chiefs, police associations, AMO and the Ontario Association of Police Services Boards.

They met over eight days discussing proposed changes to the Police Services Act, but they never met with the interested community groups, nor did they ensure that the review team itself included representation from those groups. The time frame for the public consultation is less than one month, giving little or no time for effective preparation by diverse communities.

The police require the confidence of the community, to which we delegate policing authority. It is a shame that this government has embarked on yet another effort to undo the reforms of the past few years and return to a conservative era --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

RESEARCH AWARDS

Mr Toni Skarica (Wentworth North): I rise today to recognize the outstanding achievements being made in research in Ontario universities. Two professors at McMaster University in Hamilton have been honoured with the prestigious Synergy award sponsored by the National Sciences and Engineering Research Council and the Conference Board of Canada. These awards recognize excellence in research, innovation, creativity and entrepreneurship that leads to both commercial and academic benefits.

Dr Mark McDermott's work with Connaught Laboratories resulted in the development of a new method of delivering vaccines orally. His work will be welcome news to millions of children and a few adults who cringe at the sight of a doctor's needle. Dr Bob Pelton received the award for his work with Dorset Industrial Chemical Ltd, which led to improvements in the manufacturing of paper, making the process more efficient and helping to preserve our environment.

Not only do these awards recognize true excellence, they also demonstrate how cutting-edge applied research can work for the benefit of the economic, social and intellectual life of everyone in Ontario. This makes our province an international leader in the development of tomorrow's technologies.

I'm sure the members of this House will join me in congratulating McMaster University and professors McDermott and Pelton for their extraordinary accomplishments.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I rise today out of a concern for a constituent, Sarah Lenneau. Sarah was waiting and waiting for the family support program to update its support payments by garnisheeing her husband's salary.

Her account is now $1,800 in arrears. She says it was easier to get direct payment from her ex-husband through the family support, but the FSP is warning both of them not to take that route. Her ex-husband fully agreed to this and completed the paperwork several months ago, but administrators for the family support program just can't get their act together. We know whose fault it is.

Mrs Lenneau has called the family support program numerous times over the past six months but can't get any information or action. Just last week she was told she may not get any information on her payment and get it corrected before December because the family support program is in the midst of moving. In total, Mrs Lenneau has waited more than five months for her file to be corrected. I question whether this isn't a violation of her right to access of personal information. Minister, admit it: Your family support transition plan is nothing more than an unmitigated disaster.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I rise today to inform the Minister of Labour that the Ontario Federation of Labour sponsored a joint WCB and health and safety conference over the weekend where over 1,000 delegates representing working people from all across Ontario came together to talk about the pending legislation from this government. Every one of those delegates had a copy of the leaked cabinet document that clearly outlines the intent of this government to decimate the rights that workers have under WCB.

They took great exception to the idea that this legislation would be introduced in this session and rammed through by the end of this year without province-wide public hearings.

I'm here to tell the government that those representatives and the hundreds of thousands of workers they represent demand their right to be heard in terms of province-wide public hearings when you bring down your devastating WCB legislation. You have an obligation. The Cam Jackson report was developed in secret. There weren't public meetings. In fact, this cabinet document says you're going to go beyond that report anyway. So there's no excuse, no argument, no acceptance that this piece of legislation would be introduced in this House and rammed through without province-wide public hearings.

I tell the government, you have an obligation to listen to the working people of this province and give them their democratic voice.

BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB

Mr Dave Boushy (Sarnia): I am proud and excited to announce that a young person from Sarnia has been awarded a scholarship through the Boys and Girls Clubs of Ontario.

If anyone isn't familiar with these clubs, listen up, because they are an asset to every community lucky enough to have one. A partnership of corporate sponsors, youth and adult volunteers as well as a small number of paid staff have developed unique club programs responsive to the particular needs of children and youth in the local communities.

The Boys and Girls Clubs recognize that every youth has potential and since 1992 have been distributing scholarship grants to help them develop that potential.

Michelle Duffield is the first young person to receive this award in Sarnia. Our Boys and Girls Club is very excited about that, and so am I. Michelle plans to complete the child and youth worker program at Lambton College and go on to work in a group home or detention centre. I wish her the best of luck.

APOLOGY

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: Last week in debate I made some intemperate comments to the Premier, and I'd like to withdraw and apologize for the comments I made.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): So noted.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): Community safety is a fundamental pillar of a quality family life in Ontario and a top priority of this government. Our government is committed to addressing violence against women in an effective and meaningful way. As part of our ongoing commitment to violence prevention and community safety, I rise today to recognize November as Wife Assault Prevention Month in Ontario.

A 1993 Statistics Canada survey found that one woman in four has been assaulted by her husband or live-in partner. The same survey showed that more than half of all women murdered in Ontario, 51%, were murdered by their partner or spouse. This cannot be tolerated, and our government is undertaking several initiatives to stop the violence.

This morning my colleague the Attorney General, the Honourable Charles Harnick, and I announced that two courts in Toronto and North York have been designated to handle cases of domestic assault. These courts will feature specialized teams of professionals who will deal quickly, effectively and sensitively with domestic assault cases.

In addition, I'm pleased to announce that our government is allocating $100,000 to ensure that treatment programs are available to male batterers who go through this new system. By ensuring that male batterer programs are associated directly with these courts, we are taking a positive step towards breaking the cycle of violence.

Our government also recently passed into law the Victims' Bill of Rights, identifying and protecting specific rights for victims of violent crime, many of whom are women.

We established the victims' justice fund. This $10.2-million fund will expand the victim/witness assistance program, the victims' crisis assistance and referral service, and will create a community fund that will provide greater service to victims of crime, the majority of whom are women.

Our government has also reinvested $11 million in nine emergency shelters to provide safer facilities for abused women and their children.

In addition to these new initiatives, this government continues to spend almost $100 million each year on the violence against women prevention initiatives. This includes funding for 97 emergency shelters, 34 rape crisis centres, 27 hospital-based sexual assault treatment centres and 16 male batterer programs, and a range of other programs across nine ministries.

We are firmly committed to providing services to victims, but we need more communities across the province to join with us to help prevent domestic violence.

With the coordinated efforts of community groups and with the development of more cross-sectoral partnerships, we will find practical solutions to reduce wife assault and, in the long term, prevent violence in our society.

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): I want to reaffirm the message in the statement of my colleague the minister responsible for women's issues: Wife assault will not be tolerated in this province.

As Minister Cunningham noted, we announced today the launch of two domestic violence court projects, one in Toronto and one in North York, to support the government's commitment to assist victims, prosecute criminals and improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the criminal justice system. We are keeping our commitment to promote community safety, strengthen victims' rights and build a swifter, more effective justice system.

Wife assault is a crime. Too often women are traumatized twice: first at the hand of the abuser and then through lengthy and emotionally draining court processes. The domestic violence courts will establish a designated team of crown attorneys, police and intervention staff who have the training and expertise to effectively support victims and investigate and prosecute abusers.

Police officers will employ improved investigation techniques, including the use of 911 tapes, photographs of the crime scene, photographs of victims' injuries, as well as the use of audio and video equipment to tape the victim's initial statement. These enhanced investigative techniques will give crown attorneys better evidence with which to successfully prosecute cases that in the past they were not able to pursue.

The government has also spent $40,000 to enhance the local victim/witness assistance program in Toronto, which provides services to all the courts at old city hall. This is significant because it is important to ensure that victims have proper support through the court process.

The intake process has begun in both domestic violence courts and the first cases are scheduled for early January 1997.

We must continue to highlight that domestic assault is criminal. That is why Ontario will continue to lead in the area of charging those who assault their spouses by maintaining standards that lead to the maximum number of prosecutions of this crime.

I would like to commend the high level of cooperation and commitment that has made the domestic courts project a reality. The domestic violence court projects are another example of the justice system partners working together to help solve the serious societal problem of wife assault. I extend our appreciation to victims' groups, crown attorneys, Metro police and judges who have worked together to make these projects happen.

In closing, safe communities enhance our quality of life, a quality of life that is key to promoting jobs, investment, economic growth and safety in our communities.

Ms Annamarie Castrilli (Downsview): I'm happy to hear that there is some attention being given by the government this month of all months, which is Wife Assault Prevention Month, a very serious time indeed.

It's important for us to bear in mind some of the statistics that face us. Today's Toronto Star reported some of its investigations and what has happened since it made those investigations. Of 133 domestic assault cases that were in the courts in the summer of 1995, "a quarter of the men have since been charged with the same crime. Also, of the 128 completed cases, only 71 resulted in convictions, usually on a lesser charge, and just 28 went to jail. Only three of 28 men ordered by a judge to take counselling have done so.

"And in 57 cases, the victim either failed to show up in court, or denied she was ever abused, or minimized the crime, or blamed herself...."

Clearly this is a problem of coercion, and 48 of those cases were dismissed.

It's entirely appropriate to focus on our court system to ensure that women and children are protected in these circumstances, but I'm concerned that what the government has announced here may merely be a shell game, that there is no real allocation of new funds, that we've simply shifted some resources from one sector to another, with the possible exception of the $100,000 given for treatment for batterers, and even then that is to make up for cuts that have already been made.

The reality is that women and children in this province have been savaged by the cuts this government has made in this area of criminal activity and in this area of critical safety for them.

I'd like to point out to the government that if it were really serious, it might look at restoring some of the funding for shelters and not simply talk about continuing to allocate funds that are already there. The funds to shelters, rape crisis centres, hospital-based sexual assault treatment centres and male batterers programs are, by and large, the same amounts of moneys that were there after the cuts. If those are going to continue, I'm not sure that's a novelty; that's just a continuation. I regret that women are not being given additional protection.

It also should be of some concern to us that women do not find the protection in the courts that they need, because legal aid does not cover domestic cases, and so it becomes ever more difficult for women and children to obtain the kind of justice they need and deserve in the criminal justice system.

Let me just say to the minister that some two years ago we offered some solutions that are still pertinent and relevant. They might want to consider them as a way to really strengthen the program. One is that in order to ensure women are protected from abusive men they make it mandatory for crown attorneys to oppose bail in cases where a man has perviously broken peace bonds or ignored court orders to stay away, and to press for bail conditions such as bans on firearms in cases where bail is granted against the wishes of the crown. This isn't anywhere in the announcement made today.

I also suggest that making peace bonds and restraining orders easier to obtain and more effective to keep women safe from abusive men, and investigating other means of increasing the security of women at risk are critical right now. Again, it's not addressed in the announcements that are made today.

Finally, I think the government should examine what we had proposed, which was the creation of a specialized family violence court within the criminal court system to improve and speed up the handling of domestic violence cases, including spousal, child and elder abuse, which is becoming an ever-increasing problem in our society.

So we welcome the announcement. We think it's limited. We think it is a shell game. We'd like the government to rethink what it has done and strengthen its support for women and children in abusive situations and come back to us with some really meaningful projects.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): What is valid about this announcement today is that more than half of all the women murdered in Ontario, some 51%, were murdered by their partner and spouse. It's important to acknowledge that during Wife Assault Prevention Month. It's also important to acknowledge the failure of this government and the cuts they have made to the programs that help to protect those women and those children.

The CSR has had a target, and the target has been abused women and their children.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I'm happy to stand today and say that I welcome this announcement. I think any step we take to go forward in preventing violence against women is helpful, and I applaud it. But I have to say that when this government talks about investing almost $100 million each year on violence against women prevention initiatives, what isn't in this document is how much was cut. With the small amount they're putting back into it, making it sound like they are investing a huge amount of money, just the opposite has happened.

We've had to deal with a stunning array of Harris government policies which disproportionately affect women and children across this province, from a whopping cut to social assistance to gutting violence prevention programs and unemployment equity and pay equity. The Harris government continues in all its cuts to target women and children. The minister responsible for women's issues knows this.

We've all been affected greatly by the ongoing articles in the Toronto Star about the human toll that domestic violence takes on women and kids in our province. I want to say to the government today that they should put back the money into the programs that they have taken out. They should give women the kinds of resources they need so that they do not have to go back to the abuser. With the policies of this government, unfortunately, I'm sad to say, we have statistics of many women who have ended up back in the home of the abuser because of problems with the family support plan, cuts in welfare, the spouse-in-the-house rule, and on and on.

So I congratulate the government today for moving forward a bit, but you've taken many steps backwards. Keep moving forward as of today.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I too want to say how pleased I am that we have a very definitive statement from this government that they will continue the practice of criminalization of wife assault. It is an extremely important announcement for the Attorney General to make. Indeed, I have an appreciation of what kind of pressure he is under by some people in his own party and some supporters of his party to water down the criminalization of wife assault. It is extremely important that we maintain our leadership role here in Ontario, a role that has been developed over many years.

I was surprised that the minister responsible for women's issues did not comment on our experience in our own home town of London. London was the very first police force to require its officers to lay charges in cases of wife assault when they had reasonable cause to do so. The actions and the teamwork of the police department there with the crown attorneys and with the various supportive agencies is legend across this country. It is not necessary for that kind of concerted domestic violence court to take place in a place where the community gets together, networks, supports its police force, supports the crown attorneys, and there is a mutual action.

That has not happened in Toronto and we have read over the last months in the Toronto Star very graphic accounts of the lack of coordination between the police force and the crown attorneys, the lack of commitment on the part of both in Metropolitan Toronto to ensure that domestic assault is indeed treated seriously. This announcement today is a very good news piece.

I would just caution the Attorney General. He is setting up these domestic violence courts in only two of the jurisdictions, and there are many others, in Scarborough, Etobicoke, York county and so on, where we know from the statistics that the criminalization policy of the government has, shall we say, never been vigorously pursued in the way the minister says he would like it to be pursued. Let us hope that these domestic violence courts in Toronto begin a process of acceptance and coordination between policing and between crown attorneys in this jurisdiction that then gives rise to a spread of that kind of commitment, because without that commitment it's not going to happen.

I would just echo my colleague from Riverdale's comment that while we recognize and welcome this as a positive action, there are many other actions that cuts by this government are causing that are forcing women and children back into violent homes.

REUBEN BAETZ

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Environment and Energy): Mr Speaker, I ask unanimous consent of the House to note the passing of a former member of the Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Do we have unanimous consent? Minister of Environment and Energy.

Hon Mr Sterling: It's my privilege to note the passing of a former colleague of ours, Reuben Baetz, who was the member for Ottawa West from 1977 to 1987. Reuben was elected in the same year I was elected, 1977, and served his people in Ottawa West for that 10-year period. As well, he served in the cabinet of Ontario, first becoming the Minister of Energy, then the Minister of Culture and Recreation, as it was then.

Mr Baetz had a significant and long career in public life before he came to Queen's Park. He was the former president of the International Council on Social Welfare, former member of the Ontario Economic Council, Canada Manpower and Immigration Council, Canadian Association of Social Workers and a trustee of the Canadian Institute for Research on Public Policy.

His interest in social welfare came from the history of his life in that his father was a Lutheran minister, and Reuben learned many things from his father. He travelled to Germany on a mission in social work and was bitten at that time by the plight of many people in our world. He fought for these people during his lifetime.

Reuben was very fortunate. He had a very strong partner while going through life, his wife Jule, whom many of us got to know during his time as a member of this Legislature. He was the proud father of three children, Mark, Anne and Carla, and had six grandchildren.

Reuben Baetz I believe served this province in a very dignified and intelligent way. He had the maturity of a great deal of experience when he got to this House. He used that experience to assist the Davis government in terms of its deliberations over the period of seven or eight years that he was a minister there.

I'll always remember Reuben and his family for their contribution to this place. I will always remember Reuben for standing up for the poor and less fortunate in our province and in our country. I'll remember him also for his cheerful attitude, his easygoing manner and his ability to get along with people not only on the government side but also on the opposition side.

I believe we all owe a great deal of gratitude to the memory of Reuben Baetz. We wish his family all our condolences and sympathies in this tough time. Reuben went through a long illness, and I know how difficult it was for his wife and family to endure that for the past six or eight months.

We thank the family for giving Reuben to the citizens of Ontario for the period of time they did. We will respect him always.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): My colleagues and I want to associate ourselves with the remarks of the Minister of Environment and Energy in expressing our condolences to the family of the late Reuben Baetz.

I remember Reuben very well. He was all of the things that Mr Sterling has indicated in his excellent remarks this afternoon. I said to someone earlier, when I think of Reuben Baetz I think of many things, but had Jimmy Stewart not been cast in the famous role of Mr Smith Goes to Washington, Reuben Baetz could have played that part because he was such an elegant and stylish gentleman, and always a gentleman. A generosity of spirit, fun to be with.

We had been involved, I remember, in a couple of fairly active issues of the early 1980s -- the McMichael Gallery is the one I remember most especially -- and no matter how frantic or frenetic the pace, Reuben never lost the good cheer and the generosity that were his hallmarks.

He was a child of the manse. His father was a Lutheran minister in Ontario. I think Reuben was born in Bruce county, in Chesley, if my memory serves me correctly. I remember him well talking about his experience as the son of a minister in rural southwestern Ontario in the Depression. Mr Sterling is right in reminding us that he had a very strong social conscience. That social conscience, I believe, was born from that experience as a minister's son in the Depression of the 1930s.

He spent time with the Lutheran overseas service in postwar Europe, and I remember well his discussions about what he found in Germany and Hungary and other parts of central Europe where he played a very active role in the reconstruction of that period.

Reuben was also like another famous Ottawa Conservative, Charlotte Whitton, in that he had long and strong association with some of the leading child advocate and social welfare agencies. He was for many years the executive director of the Canadian Council on Social Development. His career, not just here at the Legislature and in government but elsewhere in the province and country, reminds us that a social conscience is and ought to remain an important part of the responsibilities of individual citizens and public personalities.

On behalf of my colleagues, I want to extend to his wife and his family our sincerest condolences. We will remember him always as an outstanding part of Ontario legislative history.

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I will not repeat what's been said most appropriately by the member for Carleton and the member for Renfrew North. I too knew Reuben Baetz, not as well as those two gentlemen, given the geography of this province and the location of their respective ridings, but I knew Reuben and I had actually heard about him before he came to this place, before he got elected in 1977, when he was executive director of the Canadian Council on Social Development.

As a matter of fact, he went on from there to become the president of the International Council on Social Welfare, I believe it was called in those days. Then he appeared as a Conservative candidate and got elected. Coming from the social welfare field in those days, being a Tory, didn't raise as many eyebrows as I suspect it would today. But he cared very much about that which he did, and it was always a good experience debating with him.

The member for Renfrew North mentioned the McMichael collection. There was a bit of a brouhaha around the administration and governance of the McMichael collection, as I recall, and I can remember engaging in quite vigorous debate with him, but at no time did he ever lose his cool. I wish I could say the same about myself. He always had a very courtly demeanour about him and always seemed to be able to put things in perspective. Most of his 10 years, of course, were in cabinet, and he left in 1987. He knew when to get out, I think.

I always will remember him because of the way he conducted himself, regardless of the pressures that were coming at him from the two opposition parties. He really did conduct himself with much distinction.

I know he'll be missed by his friends and by his family. On behalf of my caucus, I wish to extend condolences to his wife, to his three children and of course to his grandchildren and his many, many friends.

The Speaker: I thank the members for Carleton, Renfrew North and Nickel Belt. I'll be sure to send a copy of Hansard to his family.

ORAL QUESTIONS

OMA AGREEMENT

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Health. Minister, we have just received notice that it is your intention to go back to the negotiating table with the Ontario Medical Association tomorrow, as we are now four days away from the threatened health care crisis in this province. I stress again that this crisis which you continue to face is a crisis of your own making, that you bullied through your changes to the health care system and that you tried to bully your way into an agreement. You backed yourself into a corner, you lost, and now you have to try again.

Minister, it's quite clear that your so-called deal with the Ontario Medical Association didn't measure up for doctors of this province, but what is of greatest concern to us is that it didn't measure up for patients of this province, because a deal which would have forced patients to pay for medical services, a deal which threatens access to quality health care for patients across this province, is not a health care deal that works for patients.

I ask you, Minister, as you prepare to go back to the negotiating table, will there be somebody there to speak for patients this time?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The whole thrust of the negotiating team has been to do exactly that and speak for patients and to ensure access to medical services. That will continue to be the first and foremost thing that is on the minds of our negotiators at the table on behalf of the people of the province of Ontario.

Mrs McLeod: I don't believe that this minister can possibly claim that his concern -- his primary concern -- is for patients when his idea of getting a deal was to trade away patients' rights to make patients pay for their health care.

Minister, you sat down with the Ontario Medical Association, with their negotiating team. You agreed -- and it may even be, for all we know, that you actually proposed -- that you would take away $108 million in services that are now considered medically necessary, services that are now provided to patients without any charge, without any fee, and you suddenly decided that some of these services would no longer be medically necessary simply because you needed a deal at the bargaining table.

Minister, I ask you how you can possibly claim to be representing the concerns of patients when you were prepared to trade away their rights, to force them to pay for their health care in order to get a deal. If you are not representing patients -- and I don't believe you have been -- I ask you, who will be in these next rounds of talks?

Hon Mr Wilson: I say with all due respect that I think the honourable member might have her words a bit mixed up. Now she's talking about patients' rights to pay for their health care, and I must admit this side of the House is totally confused.

Mrs McLeod: Let me make it abundantly clear to the minister, because it is quite clear that what this minister was prepared to trade away were patients' rights to health care and to force them to pay for the care that they now receive without fee. What is obvious to everyone is that you were prepared to sit down quietly and secretly at a bargaining table and you were prepared to bargain away patients' health care -- $108 million in services that patients were entitled to.

You were not prepared to say, before the deal was voted on, exactly what services you now consider to be medically unnecessary; you weren't prepared to tell patients in this province what they would have to pay for. Quite frankly, I don't think either you or the Ontario Medical Association had any idea what services were going to have to be paid for, what you now consider to be medically unnecessary. You just wanted a deal and what happened to patients really didn't even come into consideration.

Minister, will you assure us, as you go into this next round of negotiations as you look again for a deal, that patients in this province will not have to pay for a single service that they are now receiving under medicare? Will you refuse to make patients pay for your next deal?

Hon Mr Wilson: The status quo is not an option in health care. The honourable member knows that; her federal counterparts know that; most of her colleagues seem to know that. We have to change the way we approach some of these long-standing problems that were existent when your government was in office and when the NDP was in office.

The joint statement that is now passed was not the deal that the honourable member keeps talking about. There's much more to be done in terms of negotiations. I've instructed our negotiators. They'll be back at the table tomorrow morning and we will carry forward in the same vein that we have throughout the past 16 months that this government's been in office, and that is to always protect patients' rights and, above all, patients' access to quality medical care in the world's best health care system.

TEACHERS' COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): That answer was as incredible as some of the reports commissioned by the Minister of Education, to whom I will direct my second question. You appointed, as you well know, your very good friend Leon Paroian to review the current process that's used for teacher-board negotiations. We all saw the report Mr Paroian released last Friday, a report which is worth about the dollar you paid for it.

We are now starting to receive the analyses being done by a number of legal firms, and those analyses are unanimous in finding that the basic information in Mr Paroian's report is not correct, that there's a lack of understanding of collective bargaining in general and of teacher collective bargaining in particular, and that the author's knowledge of our education system is sadly lacking. I'll just quote one part of one report, where it says: "The report is breathtaking in light of the sweeping conclusions it makes without any empirical evidence or critical analysis.

For the most part, its conclusions are based on anecdotal evidence or the prejudices of the author." These are legal opinions based on a clear understanding of the bargaining process.

I ask if the minister will agree with us and the various opinions that are now coming in that this report lacks credibility due to a lack of understanding on the part of the author and that it should be shelved.

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): I suppose there have been several days in this chamber where the Leader of the Opposition and I have disagreed on issues, and I expect that there will be more of those days in the future, but I can say that there never has been a time in my time in this chamber when I've been more disappointed in an observation made by the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Paroian filed a report on Friday of last week. Yes, it's true that Mr Paroian and I are friends and have been for some time. It's also true that Mr Paroian was compensated the grand total of a dollar for three months' work. He is a respected member of the bar and a respected member of his community, and I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that he has extensive experience in labour relations.

I find it offensive and repugnant when the Leader of the Opposition would criticize a citizen who has come forward and put his time and experience and effort into trying to make this province better and trying to seriously review the collective bargaining process of teachers. I find that objectionable.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The member from London, order.

Mrs McLeod: I can assure the minister that I have been equally disappointed in many of his responses, as I am in his response today. I would have thought that your friend Mr Paroian would have had a somewhat better understanding of our educational system because as a counsel he has represented both teachers and school boards on a number of issues over the past years. But there is one particular issue in which he's been involved that concerns me as I see this report.

I think you knew when you appointed Mr Paroian that he was involved in a case that dealt very specifically with the issue of workload and preparation time for teachers; he was the counsel in this case opposing the recognition of preparation time. I don't think Mr Paroian's report can possibly be considered objective given the nature of his role of counsel opposing teachers on this issue. I think when you appointed Mr Paroian, you did so not to have an objective review but to get your personal agenda back on the table. Was this your back-door way of pushing through your old tool kit?

Hon Mr Snobelen: Again, I think this entire line of questioning, just so you'll know, is reprehensible. This gentleman's reputation is very sound in his community. He has represented both sides of the bargaining table, just to be clear.

This is a very serious report that's looked at some deficiencies that have been identified in our bargaining process with teachers in this province by reports done by a variety of people, including Mr Sweeney, over the course of the last 10 years. It's comprehensive. It's taken a very serious look at a very serious issue.

For the record, I take seriously the fact that we've lost 17 million student days to collective bargaining in this province over the last 20 years. I believe that's a situation that needs to be redressed and I'm glad there's been an exhaustive study done on it.

Mrs McLeod: What is truly reprehensible is Mr Paroian's statement that teachers in the province of Ontario work just four hours a day. I think anybody who knows anything about the education system knows how absolutely absurd that statement is, and I hope you will at least agree that this kind of a statement is nonsense and it is offensive to the committed teachers of this province.

Minister, I think until you are prepared to completely distance yourself from this report, teachers and school boards and students are going to continue to feel literally under siege by your government. In fact, even David Moll, chairman of the Toronto Board of Education, a lifelong self-confessed Tory, has said, and I can only quote a part of his comments, "This commando style of governing with its press releases, media leaks, short time lines, and no consultation has been detrimental to schools and their students."

Trial balloons like this unrealistic, uninformed and inflammatory report just add to the chaos and to the confusion. It hurts students. I ask the minister, for the benefit of teachers, of school boards, of students, in an effort to bring some common reason back to our education system, will you clearly state your intention to shelve Mr Paroian's report?

Hon Mr Snobelen: To straighten out the record, to clarify the record, I wish that the Leader of the Opposition had perhaps read the report she's criticizing. Clearly she has not, because Mr Paroian said that in the circumstances of a work-to-rule, that was the case, when the teachers' involvement was limited to the number of hours they spent in the classroom under schedule. That's the situation people find themselves in in the province right now, where there are work-to-rule situations, where teachers are not even allowed to take their work home to help students.

So that's exactly the reference, and I would suggest that the Leader of the Opposition read the report and not take it out of context and be accurate.

It's something that needs to be discussed. I think teachers don't like strikes. I don't think they like job action. I don't think parents like it or students like it. I think this will be a catalyst for a very useful conversation to improve the quality of education and the experience that children have in the classroom. It's not helped when the report is misrepresented by the Leader of the Opposition, who clearly has not read it.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): We'll see who is misrepresenting what. The Minister of Education talks about this objective report. The only thing that is objective about this report is that the person who wrote it is conducting a clear and objective attack on teachers and on what teachers do in the classroom.

Let me go back to the beginning. We've settled that the author of this report, Leon Paroian, is your long-time friend, and we've settled that at the same time he was supposedly writing this objective report he and his law firm were representing a board of education in an arbitration and they were attacking teachers' preparation time. We also know that immediately before Mr Paroian started to write this report he was the trustee for your business property at 6191 Atlantic Drive in Mississauga, immediately before you appointed him.

Anybody else who objectively views this thing would say that Mr Paroian has a conflict of interest, that he is simply your attack dog. Do you agree that he has a conflict of interest?

Hon Mr Snobelen: Thank you very much for the question, to the leader of the third party. If it is a conflict of interest to receive a dollar for three months of your work, and to forgo whatever compensation there would be for supervising a trust for that period, because Mr Paroian could not do that in all faith, then I guess that's a conflict of interest, because the gentleman put three months' work in for a dollar. I think that's commendable. Perhaps the leader of the third party doesn't.

Mr Hampton: Every day we learn more about the Conservative definition of ethics. This guy is your business associate. He's on your payroll. He's trustee for your business properties. He's your personal friend. While he's conducting this report he's representing a board of education that is actually out there attacking teachers' preparation time. I think anybody objective would say this guy clearly had a leaning, clearly had an interest, before he ever entered into this.

Let me ask a further point. When school board trustees who appeared before Mr Paroian indicated to him that they were happy, that they were satisfied with the current teachers' collective bargaining system, he actually attacked them. He berated them. Does that sound like someone who is objective? When he was confronted with the statistics showing that the teachers' collective bargaining system has worked well, that it settled 97% of the contracts without strike or lockout, his response was, "If it's not broken, break it."

Minister, this sounds suspiciously like you. It sounds suspiciously like your comments.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Leader of the third party, come to order. Minister of Education.

Hon Mr Snobelen: This party, this government and certainly the author of the report on Bill 100 need no lectures from the leader of the third party on ethics, just to start with.

Perhaps it's an acceptable statistic to the leader of the third party that 17 million school days have been lost by school children in the province due to collective bargaining over the course of the last 20 years. Perhaps that's acceptable to the leader of the third party. I find it unacceptable.

Mr Hampton: I would have thought that if we were going to make some decisions about how collective bargaining is conducted with respect to education, we would want an independent report. We would want somebody who was prepared to be objective. We would want someone who wasn't coming to the issue already with an attitude, already with their mind made up.

We've already settled. This guy is your personal friend, your business associate, the trustee of some of your business properties immediately before you appoint him. Whenever anyone appears before him and gives him evidence which contradicts his viewpoint, he attacks them; he berates them.

Do you want an objective report on collective bargaining or are you looking for someone who merely does your dirty work in terms of trying to create a crisis in education? That's what it seems like. Do you want an objective report or somebody to do your attacking for you?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I suppose that when you have a comprehensive look at a system and you have someone who is well regarded in his community have a look at a system and you receive that report and don't like the report, if you can't find anything wrong with the report, what you do is attack its author. That's gone on for years and years. I think it's repugnant to take that course of action, but apparently the leader of the third party does not.

Let me tell you this. If the leader of the third party has some problem with the qualifications of the individual who has conducted this investigation, he might better turn his attention to the comments of the president of the Ontario Teachers' Federation or to the comments of the president of the OSSTF local in the Windsor area, where this gentleman is from, who when Mr Paroian was presented as chairman of this particular group, said that Mr Paroian was objective and knowledgeable and would file a report that was well regarded and well respected within the industry. I think that's as good a recommendation as anyone could have.

OMA AGREEMENT

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My next question is for the other minister who is creating a crisis, the Minister of Health. Last Friday, as a result of the decision of Ontario's doctors to reject your offer, you said you would take the weekend to decide your next step. Everyone in Ontario is anxiously awaiting the result of your weekend musings.

After all, it was your decision to give yourself power over the delivery of the entire health care system under Bill 26, your decision to claw back an extra 6.5% for medical services in order to meet your own fiscal targets, your decision to cut an unprecedented $1.3 billion from hospitals, and your decisions that have put Ontario's health care system in crisis. So let me ask you this: After the weekend, have you decided what to do? People in Ontario want to know what you're going to do about the crisis in health care that you've created.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): At the invitation of the Ontario Medical Association, our negotiating teams will be sitting down together, and as per the last round of negotiations, we won't be negotiating through the media. It's incumbent that we respect the process, and the teams will get back together tomorrow.

Mr Hampton: Not a lot of information, so let me try again: This minister has managed in one year to anger the entire system of health care providers in the province. The doctors are extremely unhappy, the nurses are very angry and concerned about the future of health care and the quality of patient care, and now the Ontario Hospital Association has expressed its grave concerns.

Yesterday the president of the Ontario Hospital Association told the press the same thing we've been trying to tell you in this Legislature during this entire session, that you cannot expect hospitals to cut 18% of their budgets without affecting patient care. You have cut $365 million from hospitals already, and the result is clear: Services are being cut. Hospitals are laying off. Things like emergency services are being curtailed.

Will you commit, while you're thinking about this, to reinstate the hospital funding until you have your act together and can guarantee that patient services and medical services will not suffer while you're figuring out what you should do?

Hon Mr Wilson: For the first time in the history of this province the Ministry of Health has a very clear vision, and that vision was articulated and published earlier this year, as all ministry visions were published. Lo and behold, a lot of people have read the business plan, a lot of people have read the vision, and they agree wholeheartedly with the direction.

What the president of the OHA said over the weekend in his comments to the media showed great support for the direction the government is taking. He actually said that, and I want to publicly thank David MacKinnon, the president of the Ontario Hospital Association, and his predecessor, David Martin, who was in office when we launched the restructuring. They've been extremely helpful in setting the direction of the Ministry of Health and in working.

What the president has obviously asked for on behalf of his members is not a retreat from the policy but indeed a redoubling of the efforts to implement the policy faster so that we can get the true restructuring done as quickly as possible to ensure --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Minister of Health, thank you.

Mr Hampton: The Minister of Health must have been dreaming, because let me repeat what the OHA said:

"What is troubling is that the government isn't saying whether the reinvestment money that is identified in the restructuring commission's report will be provided. Until the government's intentions in this area are clear, hospitals simply cannot plan and implement restructuring initiatives."

That's what we've been asking you in this House and what we've been trying to point out with respect to Thunder Bay and Sudbury. You refuse to give any commitment for the transitional costs, for funding new services and for capital construction costs. For example, you've set aside $167 million for capital, and over half of that is eaten up in Thunder Bay and Sudbury. You've got an entire province to deal with.

Let me ask you this: While you're figuring out what to do, will you reinstate the funding so that people can get the patient care, community care and medical care they need while you're figuring out how to clean up your own mess?

Hon Mr Wilson: I'll take honourable members back to what was a historic speech on April 18 of this year by President David Martin of the Ontario Hospital Association to the Empire Club, when he said:

"I know that restructuring and reform here in Ontario in some way lag behind other jurisdictions. Some look at our system and see how much has been accomplished in terms of restructuring in the past few years. I look at it and see how much more is needed....

"Over the years, the health care system has been studied into paralysis. That inaction is about to change."

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): You'd better reinstate the money you took out, Jim. Put the money back. He won't answer the question; he's talking about something else

The Speaker: Member for Cochrane North, I ask you to come to order.

Hon Mr Wilson: To continue the quote: "Bill 26 created the Health Services Restructuring Commission. It was given a broad, sweeping mandate for change. The Ontario Hospital Association appreciated the need for enabling legislation like Bill 26 to overcome barriers to change where necessary."

The leaders in the hospital community don't agree with your view of what is needed in the health care system. The leaders in the health care community agree with this government's vision. We're all trying to work together to implement that vision.

NATURAL GAS RATES

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): My question is to the Minister of Environment and Energy. What do you have to say to the over one million customers of Consumers' Gas in Ontario who have received in recent days a notice that they are expected to pay, and are being charged, upwards of $50 as a one-time charge to cover some miscalculations the gas company made last year?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Environment and Energy): The member well knows that the Ontario Energy Board is charged with approving rates that can be charged to consumers in this province to protect consumers from gouging by gas companies. That is a totally non-political, hands-off, arm's-length process. Therefore your government and our government have no control over the prices charged to consumers in Ontario for natural gas.

Mr Conway: All I know is that the Ontario Energy Board gave advice to the government and Ontario Hydro about rates, and both Hydro and your government just ignored the Ontario Energy Board completely. We have a gas company here, Consumers' Gas, that made $150 million last year, and now they're going to take an extra $30 million largely out of the pockets of residential customers across Ontario on a one-time basis because they miscalculated the weather last year.

What have you got to say to these increasingly irate customers? Are you prepared to tell these customers that if this year's winter is warmer than expected, Consumers' Gas will do what they've never done before: give a rebate on the basis of unexpectedly warm weather?

Hon Mr Sterling: The member may well know that if the rate that is established before the winter season is based on false assumptions, the gas company will be required to give a rebate. But I want to emphasize that your government and the previous Liberal, NDP and Conservative governments had no control over the gas prices directly, and you know that. This is an arm's-length process on purpose so that politicians like you and I will not meddle in it. If the member wants politicians to meddle in the process, perhaps as is the case with electricity rates, please let me know.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Last Thursday Mel Lastman, the mayor of North York, put out a joint news release with the other five Metro mayors, and this is what they said:

"The creation of one big city creates less efficient and more costly government."

On the same day the mayor sent out a letter to all North York employees urging them to "voice your concern about the mega-city project and fight to save our city."

"Anywhere a mega-city has been tried, it has failed. A mega-city is too large, too expensive and too bureaucratic," he said.

Yet today, in a sudden about-face, he's quoted as saying, "I'm not going to fight it." Methinks we've got a problem here.

Mayor Mel Lastman, the original Bad Boy who never saw a fight he didn't like, is acting like a pussy-cat. Minister, are you cooking up a deal with Mel Lastman to appoint him as the mayor of your mega-city?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I thank the member opposite for that very interesting question. I think Mr Lastman is recognized as being one of the most astute mayors in the greater Toronto area. It would appear that he's had an opportunity to review all the facts and issues and has come to --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. I'm having difficulty hearing the minister.

Hon Mr Leach: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I'd also like to inform the House that we haven't made any special deal with Mayor Lastman, but thanks very much for the idea. It might have some merit.

Mr Marchese: I'm not sure I have given you any new ideas, Minister. Mel Lastman last week said, "I was the first mayor of North York and I'll be damned if I'm going to be the last one." Something transpired over the weekend. That's why we think there's a problem, that you're cooking up a deal with Mel Lastman.

The people of Metropolitan Toronto want to elect their mayor as a fundamental right of democracy. They want to hold a mayor accountable, not to have someone appointed by you and not to give power to a government run by faceless bureaucrats. You cannot have a government run by your friends at the board of trade.

What I want from you today is a guarantee, your assurance that if you go to this mega-city, the people of Metropolitan Toronto will still be able to elect their mayor next year, in the year 2000 and beyond.

Hon Mr Leach: That's very interesting dialogue, but it's very difficult to give any assurances when you haven't made any decisions on the issue at hand. We haven't made any decisions on whether we're going to one level of government for efficiency and effectiveness. We're getting closer to it, and if we do, I will be looking forward to having input from all of the mayors who are involved in the GTA, not just Mr Lastman. I have spoken to every one of the mayors in the GTA, and I'd like to let the House know that many of them are seeing the merits behind this proposal now.

HIGHWAY 402 IMPROVEMENT

Mr Dave Boushy (Sarnia): To the Minister of Transportation: as you know, Highway 402 is in bad shape. Highway 402 serves as an important economic link between Ontario and major markets in Michigan and Chicago. It also connects the key industries of the Chemical Valley in Sarnia to London and the rest of the province. The residents of Sarnia and Lambton want to know what your ministry is doing to meet the needs of the almost 20,000 vehicles that use this highway daily.

Hon Al Palladini (Minister of Transportation): My ministry does recognize the importance of Highway 402's contribution to the Ontario economy. We have committed funding towards the rehabilitation of almost 40 kilometres between Strathroy and London. So far there have been three phases of pavement rehabilitation. The contract for the first phase is now complete. The second phase is scheduled for completion in the spring of 1997. The contract for the third phase was advertised two weeks ago and construction will most likely begin in the spring of 1997 and will be completed by 1999.

Mr Boushy: I just want to point out to the minister that the portion from Strathroy to Sarnia is just as bad as from Strathroy to London. I wish he had paid more attention to it.

On a related matter, many residents of my riding were relieved to hear that a noise barrier would be constructed along a

section of this Highway 402. Could you provide the House with some specific details concerning this well-received project? When will construction begin and how long will it take?

Hon Mr Palladini: My ministry basically is indeed committed to the building of the noise barriers along that

section of the 402. A contract was awarded and construction is scheduled to start later on this month. A noise barrier will be built in Sarnia from Murphy Road east for almost a kilometre on the north and south sides of the highway. Construction will occur throughout the winter and the barrier will be in place by the spring of 1997.

NORTHERN HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): My question is to the Minister of Health. What I'd like to do is begin my question by sending over this document, Remote Northern Hospital Costs: The Need for Funding Adjustment to Recognize Inherent Costs. In the report, the authors have raised concerns with respect to the 1996 and 1997 funding allocations and factors adjustment formula. I hope the minister has seen this report; it was forwarded to him earlier. They've stated that they are concerned that the funding method developed by the joint policy and planning committee does not address the issues of remote northern communities.

You continually tell the House and the public that you're not cutting costs in health care. I ask you today, will you agree to the group's recommendation, as outlined in this report, for a service protection fund for remote hospitals?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): As you know, the joint policy and planning committee of the Ministry of Health and the Ontario Hospital Association has been developing this year's funding formula. The formula is not quite ready. I've read most of the report the honourable member handed to me today -- it was originally released a couple of weeks ago -- and will tell the honourable member that we're very sensitive to the needs of the north, and particularly the remote north. Last year's formula, which the JPPC recognized, capped most small northern remote hospitals at a 2.5% reduction.

Just this morning I met with James Bay General Hospital, for example, which has extremely unique circumstances in all of the area it tries to cover. I'm very hopeful, and I'm encouraging the JPPC to take all of this into account when it develops this year's formula.

Mr Miclash: Let me go back to page 4 of A Voice for the North. You must remember that this was the document issued by the Mike Harris Northern Focus Tour. They indicated:

"Kenora Hospital, for example, receives the same funding for food costs as southern Ontario facilities. This ignores the extra cost of providing nutrition in northern hospitals.... At both the Margaret Cochenour Hospital in Red Lake and the Sudbury General Hospital we were told that hospitals need to have their roles properly defined and to be funded accordingly."

You have already acknowledged that northwestern hospitals have higher costs; it's in your document. The administrators of these hospitals are telling me that some of these costs are in the neighbourhood of 25% to 30% higher. The current formula provides no recognition of the unique circumstances faced by these remote northern hospitals. Can I have your commitment today -- I want your commitment -- that no further cuts will be made to these hospitals without their full participation?

Hon Mr Wilson: I understand and appreciate exactly what the honourable member is saying on behalf of residents in our northern communities. I would also provide my own examples from the discussion with James Bay this morning. A four-litre bag of milk is over $13 -- tremendously more expensive than here.

We are challenging hospital after hospital to come forward and make sure we do an examination of their historic funding levels. Many of these hospitals' historic funding levels recognize the costs already. James Bay, for example, has been given funding over the years to provide housing for all of the employees; otherwise there wouldn't be affordable housing for the employees of its hospital. These things have been built into the budgets on a historical basis, and we will continue to be sensitive as future formulas are developed.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I have a question for the Minister of Health. Last Thursday my leader asked the Minister of Health if he would meet with some community leaders in the Sudbury area over their concerns about the delivery of health care in our community. You responded that you did not want to set up a parallel system of consultation while the Health Services Restructuring Commission was doing its work.

What I want to ask you today is, do you understand clearly what the mandate of the commission is versus your mandate? Because the mandate of the commission does not deal with the level of reinvestment of savings from that community, does not deal with labour adjustment, does not deal with the development of community-based services, what we are asking you is if you will meet with community leaders who want to talk to you about areas of health care that are outside the mandate of what the commission is recommending and certainly what the commission has the authority to impose. Why will you not meet with community leaders on those issues?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member is in error. The commission deals with all of those things, and the proof is in the pudding. Look at the final direction from the commission with respect to Thunder Bay. It clearly says that a labour adjustment policy and human resources plan must be put in place. It directs that's to happen and it will monitor to make sure that does happen.

Why, in the case of both Thunder Bay and Sudbury, is the government being asked to fund tens of millions, or millions of dollars if you take the one case of Thunder Bay -- about $10 million in new community services? Why are we being asked that if the commission doesn't have the authority to deal with that? The directives are very clear in terms of beefing up certain community-based services. The directives are also very clear in terms of providing about $10 million worth of new hospital equipment and 200 transitional beds. Gaps in services are very much addressed in a comprehensive way by the commission.

Therefore, all of the areas are dealt with by the commission, and the district health council is there to make sure that if there is something the commission missed, it will be sure to bring that to the government's attention.

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): That's just nonsense. The minister knows full well that the mandate of the restructuring commission is to close hospitals, and his mandate is to make the final decisions with respect to reinvestment of savings, human resources strategy and the development of community-based services. That's his mandate. He has the power to make the final decisions with respect to those very important issues.

People in my community have very serious concerns about those issues. They want to talk to you directly about the reinvestment of savings, about a fully funded labour adjustment strategy and about all the community-based services we need in our community to be in place before any hospital closes. Those decisions are yours to make. When will you meet with leaders in my community who want to talk to you about these very important decisions, decisions that you at the end of the day have the final say on?

Hon Mr Wilson: It's very clear the law sets out that during this period there are to be no special meetings among the politicians, that the commission must be free to carry out in a very fair and reasonable way the restructuring of the hospital system.

I will be announcing very shortly -- and I repeat very shortly -- the government's commitment with respect to capital concerning the final directive of the commission in Thunder Bay. As members have correctly pointed out and the hospital association points out, it's difficult to find the dollars these days, but we're finding the dollars by finding efficiencies in other areas. We'll be making the announcements about the community services and about all of the other good news items that the commission has directed with respect to Thunder Bay.

The government will be fully living up to the directives the commission has issued to ensure that we have a seamless and top-quality health care system in the north.

TOURISM

Mrs Julia Munro (Durham-York): My question is for the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism. My question comes from the fact that I represent a riding which goes around the south shore of Lake Simcoe, where winter tourism plays an important role through snowmobiling, ice-fishing, opportunities for cross-country skiing and so forth. I wonder what recent initiatives the minister has taken to increase winter tourism across Ontario.

Hon William Saunderson (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): In response to the member for Durham-York, it's a very timely question, because this weekend in the Toronto Star this supplement came out about Ontario, talking about "Cold Weather and Hot Times." That message is going to reach over one and a half million people, particularly those in Ontario. It's 16 colour pages, very attractive, and I think you already know about it. There are over 1,000 events listed in it. It cost, for all of you to learn, about $250,000, a quarter of which was financed by the private sector. I think that shows a partnership between business and the private sector.

Mrs Munro: Are there any additional promotional efforts planned to attract more tourists into this great province, and what are they?

Hon Mr Saunderson: We plan to have more advertisements such as this. I think it had a big impact on people. Obviously the House knows about it. Yes, we are planning more of these. We're going to measure the reaction of the winter sporting crowd to this and then plan accordingly in the future.

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): My question is to the minister responsible for francophone affairs.

On parle beaucoup, en ces temps-ci, de privatisation et de transferts de responsabilités gouvernementales au niveau municipal.

Est-ce que vous avez pensé aux conséquences du transfert de ces services-là au niveau des municipalités et des entreprises en Ontario ? Comme vous le savez, la Loi 8 garantit des services, et par contre, en transférant ces responsabilités-là aux entreprises et aux municipalités, le gouvernement peut se défaire de ces responsabilités.

L'hon Noble A. Villeneuve (ministre de l'Agriculture, de l'Alimentation et des Affaires rurales, ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones) : Comme vous le savez, la commission Crombie n'a pas encore fait toutes ces recommandations, et puis la décision de Qui fait quoi n'a pas encore été complétée. Mais je peux vous rassurer -- comme vous l'avez dit, la Loi 8 ne s'applique pas à nos municipalités -- et nous veillons sérieusement à ce que nous desservions notre communauté francophone de la meilleure façon possible. Ils reçoivent déjà les bienfaits de la Loi 8, et puis nous avons certainement l'intention de continuer.

M. Grandmaître : Monsieur le Ministre, votre réponse est vague, et je peux vous dire que la communauté francophone s'inquiète d'une telle réponse parce qu'elle est vague. Vous parlez de la commission Crombie. Je suis d'accord avec vous qu'ils sont en train de faire une étude, mais par contre votre bureau, l'office des Affaires francophones, a un mot à dire à cette commission. C'est ce mot que je veux que vous répétiez en Chambre, que vous avez donné des directives très précises à la commission de M. Crombie.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Put the question.

M. Grandmaître : Ma question est très simple. Quelle assurance avez-vous à donner aujourd'hui à la communauté francophone qu'on va garantir la prestation de ces services ?

L'hon M. Villeneuve : Comme je vous dis, la commission Crombie va soumettre son rapport prochainement. M me Gisèle Lalonde, qui vient de tout près de chez vous, est sur cette commission-là et elle veille certainement à ce qu'on desserve notre francophonie. Alors, je peux rassurer mon honorable collègue que nous allons faire notre grand possible, tout en demeurant économiquement efficace, de desservir notre francophonie.

ONTARIO LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): My question is to the Minister of Labour. As you know, the Sun and the Toronto Star reported that Dave Johnson threatened a review or a reassessment of the Ontario Labour Relations Board because he didn't like its ruling on the Metro Days of Action. The Chair of Management Board says he doesn't remember what he said. The Premier says he's satisfied with that response.

It's now up to you to restore some confidence in the independence of the labour board. If you fire any more vice-chairs, if you conduct a review or a reassessment, everyone who deals with the labour board will see it as the promised retaliation. Will you commit right now that there will be no such review or reassessment and no further firings of labour board members?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Labour): To the member opposite, given the present situation, obviously it would be inappropriate for me to make any further comment at this time.

Mr Christopherson: It's a little bit late in the day for cabinet ministers to suddenly be worried about what's appropriate to say and not say. The independence and the integrity of the labour board are in question here. Minister, that's very serious. As a result of all this, there's now an application before the labour board seeking contempt charges against the Chair of Management Board and asking to have a particular case heard by someone who will not have to fear retaliation of Dave Johnson, either an Ontario Court judge or a labour board representative from outside Ontario.

The application says that Dave Johnson threatened, coerced and intimidated the vice-chairs of the Ontario Labour Relations Board. The union which has charges against Johnson says that the veiled threat against members of the board makes it nearly impossible for them to get a fair hearing. The minister says he doesn't remember what he said, and you won't comment on it.

Minister, you have a responsibility to ensure that those labour board members don't have to fear that your government will retaliate with a review or more firings of labour board members. Please assure those labour board members that won't happen.

Hon Mrs Witmer: That's exactly the situation. There is a case before the board and it's for exactly that reason that I'm not in a position to make any further comment.

OBSTETRICAL CARE

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): My question is for the Minister of Health. We have asked you time and time again to resolve the issue of obstetrical care for women in my community and in all communities across Ontario where we cannot get adequate care for our women who are pregnant. I have a specific question. We have a number of our women whose citizenship status is landed immigrant; for example, we have many Chinese women or Middle East women with that current immigrant status. They need a visitors' visa to get delivery care or prenatal care in the US. I would like to know if you plan to organize that for these women.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): Mr Speaker, as you know, the honourable member's community is taking the lead in trying to put forward a clinic to deal with the needs of women in Windsor-Essex, particularly around prenatal care. I just assure the honourable member we're doing everything on our side to make sure that happens for your community and the citizens of your community.

Mrs Pupatello: The reality is that in all the talking you've been doing, in fact nothing has changed. May I remind you that this is not a simple case of people who can wait to get doctors' services. These women are due; they will be due before March. You had a deal which did not go through with doctors. You have worked on a clinic which is not yet open. We need more OBs. They have not yet arrived. The women will be delivering their babies shortly.

You cannot simply put this off and hope you will have some kind of an answer, because babies will be delivered somewhere. I am asking you today, on behalf of women with immigrant status who would require visitors' visas to attend care in the US, will you take the leadership role in ensuring that you pick up their costs for this added expense, to ensure they get the care regardless of where they have to get it?

Hon Mr Wilson: We're working very hard with health care representatives and leaders in the honourable member's community, and they're actually very positive that solutions have been found and we're in the process of trying to implement those solutions so that those worst-case scenarios that the honourable member -- by the way, the honourable member is never very positive about all the things we're trying to do for her community and the millions of dollars of investments we've made and the money we've given to obstetricians in her community and all the special arrangements we've made to make sure they have services.

She also is never particularly forthright with the fact that many of these issues -- I mean, you're new to this place but these issues have been around for years and years and we're moving forward --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: "Whining" is parliamentary. I'm not suggesting anyone is. She just asked if the word was. That's parliamentary. New question, third party.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): I have a question to the Minister of Health. It's a follow-up on the question asked by my two colleagues from Sudbury. The minister indicated that it is within the mandate of the hospital restructuring commission to look at support services, community services, reinvestment of capital and human resource adjustment policy.

I am sure you read Hansard of Wednesday, October 30, when Dr Sinclair appeared before the estimates committee, where we had a very detailed discussion with Dr Sinclair about that. He made it very clear that he has a responsibility to restructure hospitals and close hospitals and that with respect to that mandate he makes the final decision.

With respect to all other matters it's up to you to make the decision. That's why the people in Sudbury want to meet with you, Minister. Under those conditions, why will you not meet with community people about your mandate, not Dr Sinclair's mandate?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): During this period between the interim and final decisions of the commission it's not appropriate, but as the commission make its final decisions, as we're doing with Thunder Bay now, the government is very active with the community.

I agree with the honourable member that it's up to the government, after the commission has made final decisions, to step forward and show support for those decisions in terms of capital and other financial resources.

Mr Cooke: The minister still refuses to accept what Dr Sinclair understands very clearly is the separation of his role and your role, and you're obviously doing it because you're playing politics with this whole restructuring.

Every community the commission has dealt with is frightened to death that they're going to lose hospital services and that there's no commitment, nothing that can be enforced to ensure that there is proper capital -- dollars for human resources, retraining and adjustment -- and that there are community services. It's your responsibility to reassure those communities and the communities want to meet with you so that you will put your dollars on the table.

Your deputy was very clear: You've only got $169 million of capital in your budget. The Ontario Hospital Association says restructuring is going to cost at least $1 billion. These concerns are real. Why don't you meet with the people from Sudbury?

Hon Mr Wilson: Dr Sinclair, the chair of the commission, made it very clear in his appearance before the estimates committee last week that the commission has the mandate to look at the health care system as a whole in the community.

Second, I assure the honourable member that the government is fully aware of the capital requirements. We've looked at some 60 district health council studies, which your government and the Liberal government spent $26 million developing, and we have a ballpark figure of what restructuring may cost across the province, not just in the communities where the commission may go but in many other communities. The whole hospital system in Ontario needs to be restructured.

Some areas, like Windsor-Essex, have already done it, and when we came to office we lived up to the commitment and put a substantial number of dollars there. It's premature now to give dollar figures, given that we don't have the recommendations on these communities from the commission. When we get the recommendations, the government will bring forward its response to back up those recommendations with financial resources.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): You wonder why no one has confidence in the process.

The Speaker: Order. If I left the impression --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I want to say that the question was put by the member of Oriole about, is whining in order? I just responded yes. I was casting no intent on the answers or questions in the Legislature. If someone's taken offense, I apologize.

PETITIONS

SCHOOL BOARDS

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): I am honoured to present this petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the provincial government is planning to make significant changes to the delivery and governance of education in this province; and

"Whereas we as parents believe that school councils should play an important role in education, with clearly defined responsibilities limited to their particular school communities; and

"Whereas we as ratepayers are extremely disturbed that consideration is being given to abolish school boards and eliminate decision-making by locally elected representatives,

We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that the present structure of school boards within the province of Ontario continue to have a major role in governance of schools to deal with board policies as advocates for the students in their community, to provide cost-efficient educational services and to be directly accountable to the parents and local ratepayers."

I'm happy to sign my name to this petition.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have a petition flowing from the health and safety conference sponsored by the Ontario Federation of Labour. Their conference was entitled "It's Your Life, Don't Leave Work Without It." These petitions were forwarded to me by Vern Edwards and Jim Paré of the OFL staff. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Mike Harris government is attacking workers' compensation benefits and the rights of injured workers; and

"Whereas Tory plans include taking $15 billion from injured workers and giving $6 billion to employers, including the government's rich corporate friends; and

"Whereas Cam Jackson, the former Minister without Portfolio with responsibility for gutting the WCB, refused to hold public hearings, choosing to meet secretly with business and insurance industry representatives; and

"Whereas the WCB has about $7.6 billion in assets and its unfunded liability has been steadily shrinking; and

"Whereas the Jackson report and WCB legislation are just part of a coordinated attack on occupational health and safety protections for working families in Ontario; and

"Whereas Tory plans also include abolition of the internationally respected Occupational Disease Panel; and

"Whereas the government needs to hear the message that taking money from injured workers and lowering incentives for employers to make workplaces safer is not the way to make Ontario a better place to live;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to hold full, province-wide public hearings on WCB reform; to listen to the voice of the people calling for improved occupational health and safety protection; and to tell the Tory government to call off its attack on the dignity and standard of living of injured workers and their families."

As I support this petition, I add my name to theirs.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Morley Kells (Etobicoke-Lakeshore): I have a petition from the parents of Hilltop Middle School in Etobicoke and it's re education cutbacks. The petition reads:

"The Ontario provincial government, under Premier Mike Harris and Education Minister John Snobelen is threatening the future of our children's education and lives by huge cuts in the education budget.

This action could result in any or all" -- or, I may add, none -- "of the following: larger class sizes, elimination of buses, elimination of junior kindergarten and senior kindergarten, reduced libraries, elimination of special education programs, French immersion, instrumental music, alternative education, elementary library, extracurricular sports, developmentally challenged assistance, overcrowded schools, obsolete equipment including computers, reduced maintenance, reduced administration and weaker discipline."

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has recommended that North York Branson Hospital merge with York-Finch hospital; and

"Whereas this recommendation will remove emergency and inpatient services currently provided by North York Branson Hospital, which will seriously jeopardize medical care and the quality of health for the growing population which the hospital serves, many being elderly people who in numerous cases require treatment for life-threatening medical conditions;

"We petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendation contained within the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee as it pertains to North York Branson Hospital, so that it retains, at minimum, emergency and inpatient services."

I have affixed my signature.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I have a petition to present to the Legislature on behalf of 632 residents of the community of Thessalon and area regarding their concerns about the need for adequate nursing staff at the hospital for --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): This is a speech, member.

Mr Wildman: I was under the impression, Mr Speaker, that one could summarize a petition. If you wish me to read it, I will.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the mission statement of the Central Algoma East health committee is to secure and provide quality health care services to the residents of central Algoma; and

"Whereas the council of the corporation of the town of Thessalon deems it absolutely essential that two health care providers licensed by the College of Nurses of Ontario be on shift at any time at the Thessalon Plummer Hospital;

"Therefore

be it resolved that two health care providers licensed by the College of Nurses of Ontario be made available to the hospital at all times.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That two health care providers licensed by the College of Nurses of Ontario be made available at the hospital at all times."

This petition is signed, as I said, by 632 residents of the community of Thessalon, and I affix my signature to it.

I could have done it shorter, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Member for Algoma, I just remind you that I understand the rules and you understand them. You're supposed to summarize your petition if you're not going to read it. What generally happens is they summarize it --

Mr Wildman: I wasn't going to read it.

The Speaker: I understand that. They tend to summarize it and then read it. That's the difficulty.

SCHOOL CURRICULUM

Mr Jack Carroll (Chatham-Kent): I have a petition from some people in my riding.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, petition the assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas the Ministry of Education is initiating secondary school curriculum reform in light of the compression of five years into four, we would recommend that the following be enacted into provincial legislation:

"

(1) The ministry recognize that the topic of origins is faith-based. Since evolutionism and creationism are completed acts in the past, neither can be proven nor disproven. Consequently both are religious by nature. In fairness to the parents and students of Ontario, equal instruction time should be given in presenting the underlying assumptions of each. Through the two-model approach, the skills of critical thinking, such as recognition of bias, awareness of society's influence on one's bias and the awareness of assumptions can allow students to examine their own belief systems and better appreciate an opposing view.

"

(2) The ministry, through in-service training, should encourage senior administrators, principals and teachers to familiarize themselves with this two-model assumptional approach and accompanying skills of critical thinking.

"

(3) The ministry begin the process of mandating that all textbooks dealing with the topic of origins in both the social and pure sciences should reflect the two-model assumptional approach before being included in circular 14."

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): This petition is to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and contains 1,000 names.

"Whereas the Health Services Restructuring Commission has recommended the closure of two acute care hospitals in Sudbury; and

"Whereas the overall number of available beds will be reduced by approximately 35%; and

"Whereas the reduction in beds will affect Sudbury's ability to remain the referral centre for health care in northeastern Ontario; and

"Whereas there will be a large number of layoffs in the health profession, impacting the quality of local health care and our Sudbury economy; and

"Whereas the global annual budget for Sudbury's health care will be reduced by 25%;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to rescind the Health Services Restructuring Commission's recommendation to close two acute care Sudbury's hospitals."

This, a 1,000-signature petition, is added to the 11,304 names that have already been signed.

WORKFARE

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): I have yet here another petition from the good people of the city of Timmins, who are petitioning the Legislative Assembly of Ontario in regard to the workfare program. The petition reads:

"We, the following undersigned citizens, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas the Harris government has initiated the workfare program; and

"Whereas the unemployment rate in the province of Ontario increased by 57,000 in the month of September 1996, giving a clear indication that there is a need for job creation; and

"Whereas the majority of welfare recipients do want to work and there's no evidence that workfare will create permanent jobs; and

"Whereas we believe workfare will eliminate permanent jobs;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the government of Ontario has to abandon its workfare program and concentrate on job creation."

It's signed by some 200 people from the community of Timmins, and I affix my signature to that petition.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North): It gives me great pleasure to present this petition today.

"Whereas the administration of Families Against Deadbeats, Renata Diorio, Heinz Paul and Danielle McIsaac" -- who happen to be in the gallery today -- "are in total support of Bill 82, presented by the Honourable Charles Harnick to the Legislative Assembly on October 2, 1996, outlining the Family Responsibility and Support Arrears Enforcement Act, 1996, to replace the Family Support Plan Act, 1992;

"Whereas the changes will relieve the taxpayers of Ontario and provide proper enforcement required to collect and administer child support payments and orders;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We support and agree with all of the changes outlined in the Family Responsibility and Support Arrears Enforcement Act, 1996, set forth by the Honourable Charles Harnick as Bill 82, and urge the Legislature to pass this bill into law as soon as possible."

I affix my signature to that.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the quality of care for residents of nursing homes and homes for the aged is being directly and adversely affected by the funding policies of the Mike Harris Conservative government;

"Whereas the funding deficiencies are forcing these institutions to reduce available staff assistance to residents to unacceptable levels;

"Whereas the user taxes placed on prescription drugs unfairly discriminate against residents of nursing homes;

"Whereas the residents of these institutions are the very people who built this great province and country;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To provide adequate funding for long-term-care institutions and eliminate the user taxes on prescription drugs for seniors."

This is signed by a large number of constituents, mostly from the Manitoulin district, and I affix my signature.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have petitions forwarded to me by Tom Beatty, president of the Hamilton-Brantford, Ontario Building and Construction Trades Council, and Pat Whitfield, president, and Donna Portree, recording secretary, of Local 794 of the Canadian Union of Public Employees in Hamilton, as well as Donna Wright, the health and safety representative for CUPE Ontario.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas it is vital that occupational health and safety services provided to workers be conducted by organizations in which workers have faith; and

"Whereas the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers have provided such services on behalf of workers for many years; and

"Whereas the centre and clinics have made a significant contribution to improvements in workplace health and safety and the reduction of injuries, illnesses and death caused by work;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to oppose any attempt to erode the structure, services or funding of the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers.

"Further, we, the undersigned, demand that the education and training of Ontario workers continue in its present form through the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and that professional and technical expertise and advice continue to be provided through the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers."

On behalf of my caucus, I add my name.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas St Mary's Memorial Hospital is critically important to the town of St Marys and area from both health and economic perspectives,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, the Huron-Perth District Health Council, the health-related services study task force, the Health Services Restructuring Commission and the Minister of Health to support continuation of St Mary's Memorial Hospital with acute and chronic beds and 24-hour emergency services to effectively serve the St Marys and area community."

I will sign this on their behalf as well.

SCHOOL BUS SAFETY

Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the 800,000 children who ride the school buses of Ontario are at risk and their safety is in jeopardy from unsafe drivers who are not stopping for school buses; and

"Whereas the current school bus law is difficult to enforce since not only is a licence plate number required but positive identification of the driver and vehicle as well, which makes it extremely difficult to obtain a conviction;

"Therefore,

be it resolved, that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That private member's Bill 78 be passed. The bill doubles the existing range of fines for identified drivers and establishes vehicle owner liability.

"We ask for the support of all members of the Legislature."

I've affixed my name to this petition.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT AND CONSULTATION IMPROVEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 AMÉLIORANT LE PROCESSUS D'ÉVALUATION ENVIRONNEMENTALE ET DE CONSULTATION PUBLIQUE

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for third reading of Bill 76,

An Act to improve environmental protection, increase accountability and enshrine public consultation in the Environmental Assessment Act / Projet de loi 76, Loi visant à améliorer la protection de l'environnement, à accroître l'obligation de rendre des comptes et à intégrer la consultation publique à la

Loi sur les évaluations environnementales.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I must begin today again with a comment on the title of the bill. Every time I hear it, I shake my head in disbelief. I forget when I hear the title, and I think, "Is this what I'm talking to today, is this what I'm speaking to?" because it has nothing to do with the actual content of the bill. The title of the bill is

An Act to improve environmental protection, increase accountability and enshrine public consultation in the Environmental Assessment Act.

As I said on Thursday when I finished off, the spin doctors that the Tory government must spend a lot of money on come up with great titles for bills. Unfortunately, the content of this bill, as the content of the land use planning bill and all of the other bills --

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): Labour legislation.

Ms Churley: -- the labour legislation, as pointed out by the member for Hamilton Centre, and on and on and on, the contents of the bills are always contrary to the actual titles.

On Thursday I talked a bit about that, and I also talked about the problems with the bill using the title as a bit of a guideline, that in fact it doesn't improve environmental protection. It actually will, this new bill if passed, and I'm sure it will, because you have a majority and we're unable -- all the environmental groups across the province who came to speak to the government about this bill raised grave concerns about it, and none of their amendments were taken into account. So it does not improve environmental protection.

On the contrary, it is taking away vital environmental protections, one of which is the very heart and soul of the environmental assessment process, and that is for the proponent to have to prove the need for the undertaking, the alternative sites, alternatives to the method.

Let me give you a good example of why it is so important for a major undertaking to be looked at from the context of the need and the alternatives to the undertaking. Suppose you have a proponent come forward with a proposal for a huge garbage incinerator right in your constituents' backyard.

I assume that you would want to be able to tell your constituents, "Yes, there is this proposal there, and under the law, now that this government has allowed incineration back on the table at least as an option for dealing with solid waste," but at least I'm sure you would like to be able to tell your constituents that you will have a full environmental assessment.

That means the proponent is going to have to prove very thoroughly that there is a need for this facility and that the proponent has looked at, particularly in this case, the three Rs, because incinerators involve the burning -- that's what they do -- of solid waste. There is, true enough, new technology.

I remember that back in 1982 the city of Toronto wanted to build an incinerator in south Riverdale. This used to be an industrial area -- there is still some industry -- that for many years had a very highly polluting incinerator called the Commissioners Street incinerator. While that incinerator was still in use, polluting not just Riverdale but all over, the city of Toronto decided to go that route and build an incinerator in Riverdale.

In Riverdale we didn't know very much about incineration. As it turned out, very few people in Toronto, even in Canada, had done a lot of work on incineration. We formed a group. I remember David Reville, bless him, was the city councillor before he came to this place. He fought hard for our community back in the early 1980s and got city council to agree to provide the community with $50,000 of intervenor funding because there was no provincial plan at the time. We had a group called Citizens for a Safe Environment.

I was an ordinary citizen then, a single mom, very involved in my community and concerned about an already big problem with pollution, ie, lead, and other problems in the community. I got very involved in this. We investigated incineration and were told repeatedly, just as we are being told now: "Don't worry. The technology is so improved, it is such state-of-the-art technology that there will be no problems with pollution. The stacks are higher and the pollutants are spread further. The technology is so good now that most of the pollutants are taken out through pollution control equipment, therefore there's not a lot to worry about in terms of pollution being caused by incineration."

I say this is not just about pollution, although we now know, for instance, that there is no longer a safe level of dioxin and that the very act of burning garbage creates dioxin and we get dioxins, furans, mercury, lead and on and on. Some of it comes up the stack and is dispersed for miles and miles. Several years ago, when we were in the process of trying to close down the polluting Commissioners Street incinerator, some people in my community from Citizens for a Safe Environment did a very interesting, I suppose you would say, experiment.

We sent off some balloons with little notes saying, "Let us know if this balloon lands in your yard." People from all over southern Ontario -- I can't remember the locations now. These balloons came down in rural areas, on farm land, and this was to prove that you send a balloon up in the air and the wind carries it in all kinds of different directions.

That is the issue of an incinerator. The pollution is not necessarily going to be just in your own backyard; it spreads all over the place and goes into our water and into our farm land, therefore into our food. Tiny amounts of some of those carcinogens are deadly. We now have evidence that some are not only causing cancer but are interfering with our very immune systems and may very well be creating serious problems with our reproductive abilities as a human race. Those are indeed very serious concerns.

I'm glad to say I did get an all-party resolution passed in this House. So far I've not had an opportunity to meet with the Minister of Health to make sure this happens. I know he's got a lot of crises and he's very busy and this may not seem very important to him at the moment, but given the epidemic of various kinds of cancers such as breast cancer in women -- it's getting worse and worse. We now know there are connections between some of these chemicals, pollutants, carcinogens in our environment that are causing cancer, and we know that if we're going to get at the root of cancer and try to prevent some of the cancers, that is the way to go.

I was very happy to see, for instance, the Minister of Health announce more breast screening programs for women. That's good, that's very good, and we need to do more. But if we don't start acting on preventive measures and doing whatever we can to prevent the pollutants from going up the stack into the air, into our food, into our water, then we're not going to get much further than we are now. I think we would all agree there's a humane reason for doing this but also, in terms of our pocketbooks, it will cost us far less down the road to prevent the pollutants from going into our environment in the first place.

I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here on incineration because, of course, the government is now allowing incineration to be considered as an option, and lo and behold, there is already a proposal put forward to the city of Toronto that a huge incinerator be built in the east end, this time not on the old Commissioners Street site, because, I'm happy to say, after many years of battling, our community did get the old Commissioners Street incinerator shut down.

It's interesting that at the time in the early 1980s when we started fighting incineration, the 3Rs had just begun. I remember running around city hall lobbying very hard with other citizens from my community and saying we had to get into recycling, and hearing so many officials and other politicians saying it just didn't make sense, that it would be too expensive, too many problems, and that was not the way to go with garbage.

It was the very fact that we were having so many problems back then with finding ways to deal with our garbage that drove politicians in our communities to start focusing on the 3Rs as we know them today. As long as we make dealing with garbage easy, as long as we cut people out, our communities out of the process, which ironically this bill does, even though it says "enshrine public consultation" -- as I said on Thursday, de facto the public are consulted during complicated EAs because proponents know they had better do that or they're not going to go very far.

So even though it's very nice to have it in the bill that it's now enshrined, it looks good, but the reality is right throughout the bill, all over the place, public consultation time is curtailed, shortened or not there at all.

We have a situation where public consultation is curtailed and when you have an incinerator proposal or a garbage dump proposal in your backyard, you're going to want to be able to tell the citizens of your community that they will have every option open to them to be involved in the decision-making down the road. They're going to want to know if the proponent comes forward and says, "We want to build an incinerator," that they have looked at the alternatives.

They're going to want to know that everything possible has been done on the 3Rs and they're going to want to know that there's not going to be competition between the materials that are used for recycling, like paper and plastics and other materials, and that's actually going to take away from recycling programs. They're going to want to know that's part of the deal when they go into these hearings, that all of that has to be looked at.

This bill takes that possibility out. It's still in there as a possibility, but the huge difference between this bill and the old act is that it no longer is required under the act, which is what the Premier promised when he was asked a question by my Liberal colleague Mr McGuinty, who asked him very explicitly, would he require a full environmental assessment for landfill, and the Premier said, "Yes, I do."

This bill that we're debating today -- and I understand we're going to finish debate today -- actually, under the setting of the terms of reference in the very beginning of the bill, allows these key components of environmental assessment to be negotiated off the table. I say again, if passed the way it is today, this bill will break a key promise made by the Premier. Nobody's taking that seriously today.

In the whole scheme of things right now, with the invented crisis in education and the created crisis in health and all of the other areas where there are concerns and problems in the communities -- the family support plan is a terrible mess. The Attorney General has created more problems instead of solving the existing problems, which we all knew were there because our government was starting to act on the existing problems. This government has created new problems -- women were getting their cheques and they're not getting them now -- and it's not fixing the old problems.

While people are completely preoccupied with all of the other changes that are happening in their lives and are going to have a huge and direct effect on them, it is true that there are not a lot of people paying attention to me today when I stand here and say Mike Harris is breaking his promise if this bill goes through as it is written. Right now the whole issue of garbage dumps is not before us, but believe me, every government, every party in this House, goes through a period of time when it has to deal with waste disposal.

Now I know this government has worked very hard, as it has with a lot of these issues, to say: "We're independent of this. Don't bug us about it. Don't ask me about it." I saw the Minister of Health do it today; I saw the Minister of Energy do it today: "They're independent. It's not our problem. We don't make the decisions in this area." I know that as much as possible the government is trying to do that, and it is doing that with garbage dumps as well. It's saying, "Well, we're giving the power back to the municipalities to deal with them."

When we came into government in 1990, there was a garbage disposal problem. There was a crisis. It started when the Liberals were in power. When we came into government, there was a huge problem which had not been resolved. Rightly or wrongly, it's very difficult in these situations to figure out the best route to go. Nobody wants a garbage dump in their backyard, but at the time we were told there was a garbage crisis. The Liberals were unable, under their legislation, to get anything up and running. Municipalities were having a difficult time as well, and everything was practically at a standstill.

Nothing was happening. Our government brought in the Interim Waste Authority and basically decided to take on the political heat.

I suppose if you ask Ruth Grier, who was then the Minister of the Environment -- and for a short time I was her parliamentary assistant while we tried to hammer out how to deal with this -- she took a lot of political heat and a lot of political grief. It was a very tough time. It took the heat off the municipal politicians, no doubt about it, and put it on her and our government.

What this government did was change the rules once again. This government said, "We are going to let municipalities determine how they deal with their waste." In the process of getting rid of the Interim Waste Authority, they also got rid of intervenor funding.

I don't know what's going to happen. We've got a very interesting situation now in Kirkland Lake where Metro has been -- incidentally, I should say that the crisis was lessened, frankly, because of the recession. The big garbage crisis that we thought was coming didn't come, because of the recession. That bought time for Metro and other municipalities that were having trouble siting garbage.

I will say that the problem has not gone away, and a very interesting thing happened in our clause-by-clause debate on Bill 76. It was really, really interesting.

Towards the end of the debate, when we had put in our amendments, and, as I said before, the government did not accept any substantive amendments from our caucus or the Liberal caucus, they did bring in one that I was pleased to see, and that was the amendment to allow interested parties to be involved in the setting of the terms of reference up front; although, as I said last week, that to me became a bit of a red herring because unless the bill had been amended to include within the setting of the terms of reference that the key elements of environmental assessment be included in that, then I believe that is a bit of a red herring.

However, people did ask for that to be included and I believe that the government did that because even industry was saying, "We think people should be involved in the early process of the bill or of scoping the entire EA," because that's when it's done, during this very important time of the setting of the terms of reference.

The interesting thing that happened towards the end of our bringing in our amendment is that the government surprised us all by showing up one day with an amendment that essentially says that if a municipality in Ontario wants to put garbage across the border, wants to --

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I believe we don't have a quorum in the House.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Would you like me to check?

Mr Bisson: Normally, when a member stands and asks for quorum, it means to say that we would like the Speaker to check the quorum, and I believe that's happening now.

The Acting Speaker: I didn't know whether it was a question or a statement. Would you please check and see if there is a quorum.

Senior Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals (Mr Alex D. McFedries): A quorum is present, Speaker.

Ms Churley: There was a very interesting amendment which was presented to us and the amendment had to do with the municipality wants to ship its garbage, say, across the border, which is something that Metro has been looking at, and this is an extremely peculiar amendment for a government that's deregulating in its own backyard and making environmental assessments much easier for industry. It suddenly comes forward, much to our amazement, with an amendment that says that if yo