Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 1976 Number 80 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

June 9, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.¥. ~r. Speaker in the ~hair. Tape 3309 STATRMENTS RY ¥INISTR~S: IB-1 ~. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~inister of "Manpower and Industri.al Relations. ~. 'M'AYNAFn: ¥r. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the report of the Buchans Task Force has been presented to me today. The Task Force was appointed in April, 1975,to assess the future viability of the town of Buchans and to make recommendations as to the possible aJ ternatives which would secure the future of the town in the event that the mines closed in the next t•ro or three years.

The Task Force was made up of the followin!Z people: t'r. Bob Langdon who is Assistant Deputy Minister of }'anpo-.rer with my department; Mr. John Allston, Department of r<uni cipal Affairs ;l'tr-• .J,A,IIr.ennan, Depart,.,ent of Forestry; Mr. George Neary represent :In~ AS.A.PC(); }l.r. E. Hamilton representing thl' Ped Ind:lan Lake Tlevelopmen t Association; ~~r. Hugh Wadden represen t:l.ng the town of Buchans; ¥r. H. Fowlow representinp, the townsite which is the company portion of the town and 1'r. A. Ivany representing the T.Tnited Steel Workers of America.

Tn addition to the main Task Force group 1a number of other peopJ e provided nn i.nput by serving on var:lous cornm:l.ttees to report on sectors such as m:ln1n~, transportation, etc. Due to the comprehens:l .ve nature of the study, government w:I.Jl require a per1 on of t1yne to study and analyze the TP.port in detail before decis:lons can be mf!de regardinp, the recommendations. It is my intention to meet w:lth the full Task Force within the next four weeks, possibly early July, to d:lscuss the report thoroup,hJy and hear the members' individual views on the overall c~ntents of the report.

After povernment hfls had an opportun:lty to fully consi~er the recommendations of the Task Force,announcement~ will be made from t1me to time indicating the action whi.ch government will take rep:ardinp; the recommenrlations. It :Is sincerely hoped that the report w:lll provide the informfltion and hasis necessary to ensure the future viability of the town of Buchans. !_R. SPEAKEP : The han. memher for W:l.ndsor-Buchans. 104:i0

June 9, 1976 Tape 3309 IB-2 }IF, FLIGHT: ~r. Speaker, I welcome,and I welcome I am sure on behalf of the Opposition 1 the completion of the Ruchans Task Force. 1 wish now to thank a~~:ain on behalf of my collea~~:ues the efforts put into it1 particularly hy the local members of the Bnchans Task Force and particularly the sub-committees. Because after the main Task Force was put together, most of the work with re11:ards to M.gginp; up the facts and making the recnMmendations to the task Force was done by local people who served on sub-committees.

Sir, I want to say now that number one, that Task Force must be made publ:!c as fast as is possible. There has been an air of secrecy around the Task Force since the day it was conceived: I can appreciate the secrecy in the sense of the sub-committees who were looking into what mi~~:ht or might not be done by way of setting up industry for Ruchans in the event that the mine closes down. I could never recognize the secrecv that was attached to the Committee set up to study local government and the possible incorporation of Ruchans. However the secrecy was there.

Now as the m:!.nister knows the ¥inister of Municipal Affairs has indicated that he is about to incorporate the town of Buchans, set up a local improvement district and a Board of Trustees. This, he :f.nrlicated, came as a result of a recommendation made by the Buchans Task Force. It no doubt was a recommendation made by the sub-committee on local government or incorporation for Buchans. Certa:!n]y I suspect there were a lot of conditions attached to the recommendation 1 that Buchans would be incorporated>by that Committee.

I am not aware that any of the conditions that the sub-committee required or the people of Buchans need, that any of those conditions were met. I fear very much that the incorporation of Buchans will be the only concrete thing that the Task" Forc:e. will be able to say that they accomplished. I fear that the incorporation of Buchans , is going to he set up in a way as to justify the existence of the Buchans Task Force and justify the expenditure of $180,000. Now, I know what the Task Force was set up for. It was set up to look for ways that ~~ill guarantee the viability of 10451

June 9, 1976 TaJ)e 3309 IB-3 ~m. FLICiiT: Buchans in t~~ PvPnt the mine closed. ~r. Speaker, beca~~e of the ti~ht money policy in this Province ~iv.ht now, because of the tmnvailab:!lity of funds, if the Bucba~s Task Force ~~re to h~ve reco~endcd secondary industrv or the ~tilizntion of some of the resources that ~;urround the to..n of Buchans, it is a verv real Question R verv fair nuest:lcm to ask as to whether or not th1.s ~overnment will he prepared to ~a~e the fun~s available to develop the area or to develop the resources that are there in or<ler to provide employment . ~·r.

Spe!ll-.er, this Honse voted $180,000 for the Task Force . It 1s my hope that the $180,000 will be accounted for in this House, th11t it will he tablerl a" to how and wher e the $180,000 went . It is my hope that the task force will be made public :!~diately. Certainly it should be tabled in this House immediat ely. Certainly I will he ask:!nr for a copy and the people of Buchans have waited for a year to find out what :is in the Task Force and what effect the findin~s of the Ruchans Task Force will have on thei r futu r e .

I ~oulri su~$est to the minister , Sir, that it ~o>ould be most unfair to the people of Buchans, the people who the task force ...as !)riginally set up to serve 1 if they ~re ~ept in the dark any lon~er as to what might be their future in the town. We would hope 10452

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3310 Page 1 - mw Mr. Flight. that that report will indicate what the future of the town of Buchans is. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, there really is not very much that can be said by way of comment on the statement of the hort. minis ·ter. He says merely that the report has been received.

He gives the names of the gentlemen who constituted the personnel of that commission, and he tells us that in a month or so, after the government have had an opportunity to study the report, they will be able to say something about it. Now it took about a year to make this report, and the hon. gentleman from the constituency containing Buchans says that it took about $180,000 to pay the cost of it. It is,, Mr.

Speaker, I suppose, and I say, I suppose, that it is a discouraging fact that in recent years, fairly recent years, Bell Island has closed down and that Tilt Cove has closed down and Fort Pepperrell has closed down and Stephenville has closed down and the Whalesback operation has closed down and Goose Airport has closed down, and Argentia has closed down and now we have the imminent closing down of Buchans. It takes a stout heart in Newfoundland. And I would say that in the ranks of the government, in the cabinet, it takes a doubly stout heart to keep going and to fight this kind of adversity.

All Newfoundlanders need a very stout heart not to lose heart, not to be discouraged but to be more determined than ever to keep afloat and to keep the Province afloat. We are always in such appalling danger - appalling - of being washed down the drain. Almost it would seem that nature itself conspires against us, and I do hope for the sake of Newfoundland, for the sake of the good people of Buchans, for the sake of the hon. member for Buchans, I hope for everybody's sake that this repor~ does contain some practical, workable, feasible proposals to keep that l0453

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3310 Page 2 - mw Mr. Smallwood. that community of Buchans going. I just hope for everybody's sake that that is the case. In the meantime I do not envy the government's task in facing still this new close down of a good, viable, profitable, prosperous community, the community of Buchans. SOME RON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, for some time I have viewed with concern the exodus of Newfoundlanders who leave the Province annually in large numbers to vacation outside. I feel it incumbent on me to acquaint this bon.

House with my concern in this matter, and to advise hon. members of my intentions to initiate a programme to have Newfoundlanders vacation at home. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR.H!CKEY : I appreciate the fact that I am preaching to the converted when I extol to hon. members the beauties of this Province, the network of provincial parks, second to none in Canada, the majestic beauty of the West Coast, and the rugged scenery of the East, the national parks~at Gros Marne and Terra Nova, where scenery varies from the fiords and mountains of Gros' Marne to the pastoral beauty of Terra Nova, the extraordinary sports fishing in Labrador, the finest in the world, our historic sites, the significance of which are the most important in North America, L'Anse-au-Meadows, Port au Choix, Heart's Content, to name a few.

It is my intention to embark on a promotional programme immediately to persude Newfoundlanders of the intrinsic beauty of our own Province, and its proud heritage. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: This will imclude the use of all media, press, radio and television. Preparation and implementation of this programme will commence immediately. Its importance is not only to acquaint Newfoundlanders with what we have to offer, but to reduce to a great extent as possible expenditures of much needed capital outside 10454

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3310 Page 3 - mw MR. HICKEY: the Province. I am sure that this programme will receive the approbation and support of all han. members. SOME HON. ~; EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I can say that I am sure that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) agrees, because I heard him talk about it a couple of days ago. MR. NEARY: MR.

HICKEY: Yes, and I invite all han. members, not only to support it in the Rouse, but in their own way as they travel throughout the Province during the next month or two or when they have an opportunity to make public statements that if they find the opportunity to include an invitation to our own people to visit various parts of the Province and to stay at home rather than visit outside areas. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~· SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, anything that the government does, of course, to encourage the tourist industry in this Province and to encourage Newfoundlanders to stay at home and frequent our own parks and our own tourist establishments can only be welcome by members of the Opposition, Of course, we have to be a little 1eary at this particular time seeing government ads on the television and listening to them on the radio being that the by-elections are being called and each of us must keep that in mind, of course.

And glorified, beautifully produced government ads at this time might do well to enhance the image of the party in government. That being said though, Mr. Speaker, I do welcome this particular announcement, and I would also give the minister a bit of information. I was talking to an individual on the weekend in connection with tourism in the Province. He has a particular establishment, and he tells me that he is booked up for just about all of June. He is booked up for just about all of July, and he is booked up for most of August, most of September, most of October. And I think that in July and August 10455

Juie 9, 1976 Mr. White. Tape no. 3310 Page {t - mw together he only has something like twelve or fourteen vacant~es out of an occupancy rate for those two months of about 700 or 800. But he did tell me something sign.ificant that concerned me very much, and I am glad for this opportunity to tell it to other members of the House.

He told me that in other years up until now he has had hundreds of requests from the Mainland with respect to possible campsites and activities that Mainlanders could participate in should they come to the Province to spend their vacation this Summer, literally hundreds in other years, but he said this Summer he has only had five requests so far this year. He cannot believe it. He told me that in other years 25 per cent to 30 per cent of his business would be Mainland business and American business. However, this year he said that 99.9 per cent of his business is provincial business.

So I was pleased to hear that so many Newfoundlanders are staying home. Perhaps the CN rates on the Gulf has something to do with it but nevertheless, as I say, we welcome it. And also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I am not pleased having spent so many years in the media and realizing the advantages of advertising and what advertising can do I am not so sure that we are doing enough as a Province to attract Mainland tourists to come here.

I think we can do more along the promotional angle than. we have been doing to present Newfoundland to the Mainland travellers and to the American travellers, and I hope that the minister looks at this verv seriously. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, just for the information of the House, I would like to inform all members here and through the House, of course, to the general public that in view of the great concern expressed on rates for automobile insurance, there has bean a brief submitted looking for a thirty-two per cent increase by AIA, ·which is the Automobile Insurance Advisory Organization. The board set up, the Newfoundland Automobile Insurance Board, set up by the governaaut, 10456 !

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3310 Page 5 - mw Mr. Murphy. an impartial board, had arranged to receive representations to a public meeting on June 23, but in view of the fact that some groups have expressed their desire to submit briefs, that date bas now been set for July 7 to enable anybody. And in view of the concern again, and there is n.o good getting on radio o~ television and telling people they are being shafted or ripped off.

Let us get some facts, and present them to this board, because this board wants to consider all evidence, not hearsay, not charges, nothing else, allegations, but to consider everything, because l think it is very, very important at this particular time in view of these g~eat increases that this board be given a chance to be provided with all the information that is available. SOME RON. M!MBERS: Rear, hear! 10457

June 9, 1976, Tape 3311, Page 1 --- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, MR. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I would like to, if I may, for the information of the House; a story emanating out of Winnipeg this morning, a~~ appeariag in this morning's Daily News paper, and perhaps this afternoon's, and in other presses that I have not heard of , indicate~ that a nr. Robert Middleton of this Province indicated that we would be burning, or spraying, W am sorry, next year up to 1,000 acres in the Province. Dr.

Middleton was not in any way authorized to make that statement, and nobody in my department has beee authorized to indicate to him that this would be done, My position has been , I thought, quite clear and unequivocal on the question of spraying in the Province. I do not know where be got the information. It is certainly not originating from goverament. I think our position has been quite clear, quite unequivocal, and there is no intention at this point in time to spray.

I - said personally, for my part, that I would have to have overwhelming evidence that such would, environmentally or from a health view- point cause any problems before we would ever -consider it. ­ So that has no basis - MR. SMALLWOOD: Is he a civil servant? MR. ROUSSEAU: Pardon? MR. SMALLWOOD: Is he a civil servant? MR. BBUSSEAU: No. I do not know. He is not connected with the civil service. I think he is connected with the University, but I am not sure. But he made that statement and it was carried in the press, and it has no basis or foundation in fact. MR.

NEARY: Could the minister tell us about the shortage of eggs on the Wast Coast? MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know about the shortage of egga on the West Coast. 10458

June 9, 197fi, Tape 3311, Page 2 -- apb PRESENTING PETITIO. S '1R. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here today that was presented to me just a couple of days ago, signed by over 300 people of the towns of Comfort Cove and Newstead, which is in my district. It concerns a

section of road going from Newstead to the Campbellton intersection ~~ere it intersects with the road to the Isles. The road is a gravel road. It was upgraded about a year a~o, ann a very good job done on that particular road, and it is in excellent condition at the moment, for a gravel road, although it has a large number of rocks and so on on the road now. The people there are trying to get the road paved. They would like to get it paved and they have presented me with a petition to present in the House calling upon the government to give consideration to paving this road this Summer.

Nm~ there are a couple of points I •rould lil ' e to malre nhout th:i s particular road. I have already made them to the minister and I want to make them a~ain. Comfort Cove and Newstead, although they are small towns, they do contain one of the largest fish plants in my area. It is a canning industry, Notre Dame Bay Fisheries.

It has a large number of trucks,and the trucks are going over the road continuously day and night, carrying fish and lobster and various other things, and it is causing quite a lot of dust in the area and also is going to cause the road to deteriorate if pavement is not put on this particular road. Number two, there is a Decca station located in Comfort Cove , or on the Comfort Cove Road. It is one of the largest Decca stations in Newfoundland.

It is operated by the Department of Transport and each day,when it is not raining, people who work for the Decca station have to go out and put chemicals on the road to keep the dust d~ because the equipment there is very sensitive to dust and they have to keep the dust from getting into this equipment.

June 9, 1976, Tape 3311, Page 3 -- apb 'MR. WHITE: Also, Xr. Speaker, there is a considerable amount of paving being done in that area this Summer. The paving plant is going to be in the area so the people there feel that while the paving plant is in the area, that this road to Comfort Cove-Newstead, will be done. I want to whole-heartedly support the petition and I hope that the minister gives some serious consideration to doing this particular piece of road. It would be to the advantage of the government to do it, and not have to bring back the plant in future years Which they will have to do.

To do it this year will only take a week or ten days to do it, and I hope that they give consideration to it. I want to table this petition and have it referred to the department ' to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. WINSOR: The bon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. I rise to support the petition as presented by my colleague, the hon. the member for Lewisporte. It is only a small piece of ~oad. He says it is in good condition but it is dusty. There is heavy traffic going to the fish plant, and he is asking for pavement.

And despite the admonition received from the opposite side yesterday evening, I still have to support this petition. If they cannot pave it they can coat it with calcium chloride which will bind the gravel that is flying away now. It will keep down the dust and might save it for paving when you can get around to it. Obviously every road that has been asked for and petitioned for cannot be paved. We know this, ·And I guess the Minister of Transportation is going to have to pin the tail on the donkey and wherever it lands, that is the road he is going to pave with the few dollars he has left.

I do strongly support this petition. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words in support of the petition. The condition of this road was brought to my 10450

June 9, 1976, Tape 3311, Page 4 -- apb MR. MORGAN: attention a while ago by the hon. gentleman who today brought the petition into the Assembly here. The fact is that there is an asphalt plant in the area this year that is carrying out a contract that was awarded last Fall. Sometimes the fact that an asphalt plant is in an area,that reason is used to have additional roads paved in the same area. Whether or not we can pave the road to Comfort Cove this year has not been finally determined to date. However, I can assure the han. House and the han. gentleman that there is a section, a new section, a diversion in Birchy Bay on the main road, the Road to the Isles, that if that

section of road is not paved this year, because presently it is not included in the contract, that three mile new section, that when we call tenders to pave that new section, that diversion, the Birchy Bay diversion, there is a strong possibility we will include the road to Comfort Cove to make it a viable contract, enough to warrant the calling of tenders. MR. SPEAKER: ------ The han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: I have another petition, if nobody else wants to speak to the one presented by my colleague.from Lewisporte (Mr. White). Mr.

Speaker, it 'is my pleasure to present a petitio~ I do so on behalf of my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) who is unable to be here today. As m&IJ7' will know he is involved in a matter of interest to his district, in that he is on the William Carson travelling to Goose Bay on the inaugural run. And I am sure, in that respect, most of us envy him, I do certainly. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the member for Eagle River I would like to bring to the attention of t bhe House a petition from minety-two of his constituents all residents in the community of Nain.

The prayer of the petition is one that will be very familiar to all of us here. Perhaps I could read parts of the petition, it will perhaps sum up better than I could the problem they face. "The community of Nain has just recently exhausted its supply of fuel oil required for bhe purpose of home heating and for tbe generation of electric; 10461

June 9, 1976 Tape 3311, Page 5, ---apb Mr. Simmons: power. This situation has arisen due to the lack of sufficient oil storage facilities, for an adequate amount of fuel oil required by the community.

The 6ommunity Council of Nain along with other groups has repeatedly,over the past several years)advised government of the necessity of providing bulk storage tanks for the sole purpose of avoiding such critical fuel shortages as are now being experienced causing serious disruption of medical and educational services, and will undoubtedly cause 75 per cent of the homes in the community of Nain to be entirely without heat until at least mid­ July when water navagation is again possible, since these homes must rely upon fuel oil for this purpose. " You might note, Mr.

Speaker, that when the petitioners say that 75 per cent of the homes will be without heat, we ought to keep in mind that we are not talking about St. John's or indeed any part of the Island, we are talking about the Northernmost communitt in the Province. We are talking about a community that is well up on the Northern Labrador Coast, and one should not assume from the somewhat balmy temperatures we are enjoying here that Nain is getting the same kind of temperatures.

In particular, the night temperatures in Nain would be quite low, and would certainly require some heating and the prospect of having 75 per cent, three-quarters of the homes without heat for the next month and a-hllf cannot be a very comforting prospectJparticularly to the people who live in those homes in Nain. Petitioners conclude, Mr.

Speaker, as follows: ·~e the undersigned residents of the Community of Naim herajy petition and implore the Provincial Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to install a sufficient amount of bulk fuel oil storage tanks in this community to finally solve this unacceptable situation." 10462

June 9, 1976 Tape 3312 IB-1 }'l' • S IJ.ll'<ONS : On behalf of the member for F.ag]e Piver (Mr. Strachan), Mr. Speaker, just let me endorse what the petitioners, the ninetv-two petitioners have stated so lJell. It :Is a completelv unsatisfactory situation. l<Te Rre not ta1k:lnp here, 11r. Speaker, ahout inconvenience as such. We are talking about a basic necessitv keeping in mind the geography and the climate involved. We are talkfng about a pretty basic necessity. ~e petition lays particular emphasis on the necessity insofar as home heating i£ concerned.

Let us not forget that the school situation has been affected there this Spring>through the lack of fuel 1 and could conce:l .vably be again :l.n the future H we have a situation repeat itself similar to the one they are having in Nain dp.;ht nowl indeec'l throup;h the fuel shortage. Not only is the heat factor involved here but also the generation of electricity. I do not believe, }1r. Speaker, that one need elaborate for any length of time on the need. I bel :I eve we all reco!!nize the need and I bel i.eve the government and the act:lng minister under whose department it comes is quite aware of the need.

Perhaps the minister lmuld be good enough at th:l s ti!l'e to indicate to us what the government might plan to do on this particular suh.1ect. In any event, ?'r. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the petit:lon and request that it he referred to the appropriate department. }Ill • SPEAK F. "P : ~e hon. member for Naskaupi. }IR. GOlmiE: "M"r. Speaker, .1ust a few words in support of the petition presented by the hon. member on behalf of the member for Eagle River ('Mr. Strachan). Obviously this is a concern of md.ne as well since it is a problem wl-:1 c.h hRs E'x:f.sted in Labrador for a number of years.

I mipht add that at the cnmb:l.neti council meetinp;s in Hopedale, which •~ere helcl in }'ay of th:ls vearJwhich I. attenrled as did the member for F:ag1 e ~:l.ver (Mr. ::;rrachan), this resolution or a resolution to the effect thllt hulk storap,e facilities should be provided to coastal communit:les was passed by the council!< again as it has been :In the past number of 10463

June 9, 1976 Tape 3312 IB-2 ~. GOUDIE: years. It, in my opinion, will be the answer or part of the answer to some of the problems which exist in coastal communities at this point in time. I feel it would be an obvious solution to government spending. the subsidy which is offered each year to these commun:l.ties to fly in - or not to the communities but at least to have fuel flown in to these communities and it would obviously be a great benefit to all of the coastal communities affected by the lack of bulk storage facilities.

With the method used at the moment, distributing fuel in forty-five ~allan ~rums)it is expensive to the consumer and there are all sorts of factors involved. It gives me pleasure to support the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~~--~~~R~ ~r. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition for, no other reason, Sir, than H was through my initiative, when I was Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation,that the bulk storage tanks that are presently i.n Nain were put there as a result of initiative taken by me when I was minister of that department.

Now, Sir, when I first went down to Nain and saw the gasoline barrels and the diesel fuel barrels and the heatine stove oil in forty-five gallon drums lined up on the long wharf in Nain 1 and not only in N~tin but in all the other communities in Northern Labrador, where coastal bol'lts were tyin!' up, tourists were go:l.ng ashore, passengers were going ashore, that I suspected at any moment that R lighted cigarette or a match or anything at all could start off a great conflagration.

I entered into negotiations w:l.th Gol ~en Eagle - he cause members of the House will remember that \.olden Eagle has a contract to supply heat:lng fuel and gasoline and other kinds of fuel to th:ls p,overnmerlt. They had a ~'enty year contract I believe ~I entered into nep.:ottations with Golden Eagle to establish bulk storage tanks in all the Northern Labrador, and Southern Labrador for that matter, ~orthern Labrador and Southern Labrador communities. They absolutely 10464

June 9, 1976 Tape 3312 IB-3 Ml'. NEA'I'Y: refused. They refused point hlank. So then I wrote Imperial Oil and I askeCI Irnper~al Oil if they wQuld be interesteCI :In establis~tng h1uk stora~e tanks in Northern Labrador. They apparently took me up on the offe~even though I received a threatening letter fro~ r~lden Eagle's lawyer, legal counsel 1 tellinF me that there was an agree~ent and that if we broke the agreement we would he taken i.nto court. I thought in this Clay and age us:lnp, forty-five ~allan drums, Sir, was back in the horse and hup;gy days.

And I could not care less if Golden Eagle took us into court, I was going to approve the establishment of bulk storage tanks at Nafn and at the other communities where they have been establ tshed. As a result of that 1-'r. 1-'el Wood~rard 1 the Imperial C'1il representative 1 bought a hoat called The Tanya Woodward, I think. She is the tanker that goes around refilling these tanks. But unfortunately, Mr. Speaker,the company underestimated the usa~~:e in these comm\mities. The usage has gone up substantially over the last two or three or four years, especially since the bulk storage tanks have heen :Installed.

Now I think what needs to be done -and I do not helieve it :Is the responsibility of the government, I think it is the responsibility of the company- they need to expand the storage facilities :In these communities, not only in these communities, Yr. Speaker, hut T have been trying to talk Imperial 0il and Golden F.agle into establishing storage tanks,in this day and age,in all isolated communH:Ies in Newfoundland even along the Southwest Coast. }!P.

MTTPPllY: The oil prices is horrendou!l in theRe places. ~ NEAPY: 1n every isolated community.!he oil companies should be ashamed of them!lelves and they should get a kick in the rear end for not going out. They say, "Oh, it is impractical and it is not feasible.'' I have had umpteen corre!lpondences with Imperial Oil trying to get bulk storage tanks 1n LaPoiJe-PetHes and in Grand Bruit and they refused to do it even though r~lden Eagle is supplying the generator. They 10465

June 9, 1976 Tape 3312 Ml1 • NF.A l1Y : are still hauling the oil in in forty-five gallon drums. I think it is time that the government grabbed Golden Eagle by the scruff IB-4 of the neck and demanded that they do this or reopen their contract, renegotiate their contract because 7 in my opinion,they have not lived up to the terms and conditions of their contract and in this day and age oil and gasoline and heating fuel should not he hauled around,in the middle of the 1<Jinter1 :In forty-five gallon drums. So I support the prayer of the petition, Sir. It is a project that I started back in 1970,! think :It '••as.

It is only now 'Je are beginn:l.np; to see the results of it even thouph the amount of storage capability that they have in Nain is not sufficient at the present time. I believe that the company will, with a little encouragement from the minister, expand these facilities so that the people will not suffer the hardship and have the shortages that they have had over the last two or three Winters. Y.P. __ S_!'_E:_AiqlP_:_ The han. T.eader of the Opposit:lon. MR. llOBEllTS: Mr. Speaker, a number of members have spoken in support of this petition and I think they have canvassed the arguments very well.

I do not need to repeat what has been said by my hon. friend from Rurgeo-Bay D'Espoir (Yr. Simmons) who presented the petit:l.on on behalf of my friend from Eagle River ("Mr. Strachan) with the able support of the gentleman from LaPoile ("Mr. Neary) - MR. NOLAN: And Naskaupi. J<m.. "ROBERTS: And I add my thanks to my colleague for rem:l.nding me the hon. gentleman from Naskaupi (}lr. Goudie) as well.

Let me siMply say that I think the prayer is well taken and T. think the request :Is one which should be granted. '!'he problem is not confined to the Northern r.oast of Labrador nor indeed is it confined to Labrador but it is more serious in Labrador. We have not only the communities on the North - this petition refers specifically to Nain or the communi ties North of Rigolet but we also have all of the communities on the South Coast w:l.th the single sign{f:l.cant exception 1046~

June 9, 1976 '!'ape 3312 IJ\-5 MR • 'RCYB~l11'S : of Cartwripht ann Port Hope Simpson. In r.arh•rip,ht they have very large tankage fadl:!tjes whjch were bequeathen to us hy the Americans ~·ho ; of course , formerly had a ranar site at rartwright ant' when that •~as abandoned by them the facilities, the large tanks, were there and they were acquired and they are no~' he:!ng used. Similar) y in Port Hope Simpson Bowaters installed larf\E' tanks there at a time when they ,,•ere contemplat:!np, c:'evelopinp.: a m<'!jor pulpwood operation centered around Port Hope Simpson.

That turned out to he a disaste~ from the economic point of view , in that pulpwood was very, very expensive but the fact remains the tanks are there, as :!sa very large wharf. Port Hope Simpson must have one of the largest. wharfs :!.n all of Labrador and now all it is used for, of course, are the coastal hosts and it :! s not even very convenient for that because it is three or four mHes from the community itself. Jn the r-ther communities, Vr. Speaker, along the Labrador Coast there are very great needs for tank facilities.

The same i5 true in the hon. gentleman's district~of LaPoile 7 as he mentionec:' and a number of places on the Jslan<'l; Harbour neep in the district represented by my frien~ fro111 Raie Verte-White Ray (Mr. 11ic:'eout), rroque in my c:':!strict, St. Julien's-Grandnis, Change Islanc:'s in l,ewisporte district, a number of places.

The Lahrador part of my r1 :!strict iro:rdcally is no~' partially served beC'ause recently Colden F.ap.le went i.n and put up large tanks in T. 'Jlnse-au-Loup which ha(l the 1.nfuriatinp. resttltluntil we got it straightened out,of a hipher price beinr, charred for gasoline sold by Golden F.ap]e at L'Anse-Au-Loup than was beinp, charge~ hy C:olden Eagle for the p;asoline sold from their tanks at St. tlarhe ~irectly across the Straits of Belle Isle. Ann each 10467

June 9, 1976 Tape 3313 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: price was higher than Gulf 6il were charging for the oil and gas products they sold from their tanks at Blanc Salbon just across the Bomcer. So the effect, even leaving aside the tax, because our Provincial tax, of course, is higher than the Quebec Provincial tax, but even leaving that aside Golden Eagle were getting considerably more per gallon for their fuel, oil or gasoline, heating b~a or car gasoline, than were Gulf.

And therreault of that, I think, we have set it straight now, I think the competitive forces have taken hold, the result was-~ of ' cour~e· , everybody was dr:i.ving his car across the Border and filling up there, and not only getting his gas cheaper, but getting it without ·quite as much tax, and what tax he was paying was ~ing to the tax collector, or the Government of Quebec. And that is, you know, no way to build this Province at all. In any event, Mr. Speaker, the point is that these tanks got to be provided if we are to have adequate service.

A few years ago oil was a bit of a luxury, in a sense, but now it is an absolute necessity. I would imagine, what? 80 per cent or 90 per cent of the homes in Labrador now have oil heating, either totally or in combination with wood burai~g stoves? Every hoae has at least two skidoos. There cannot be a home between L'Anse au Clair and Nain that does not have two skidoos sitting by the door and many have many more, and they consume a vast amount of gas.

And then,- of course, in the areas where there are some roads, and even some areas where there \ are not roads~people have cars and trucks to get around the Harbour or to get on what bit of road they have. The economics are simple. Gasoline in a forty-five gallon drum is l l would think, what~ $1.00 or $1.50 a drum,more expensive' Maybe $2.00 a drum more expensive,not counting the cost of the drum. The drums themselves are becoming very hard to find, very scarce, very difficult and consequently more expensive, in addition to the cumbersome trouble. A forty-five gallon drum of oil, Mr.

Speaker, is 450 pounds. 10ft68

June 9, 1976 Tape 3313 PK'1- 2 MR. GOUDIE: $1.46 a gallon . MR. ROBERTS: for the fuel. MR. GOUDIE: The gentleaan from Naskaupi says, $1.46 a gallon Gasoline MR . ROBERTS: Gasoline. And, you know, outrageously expensive, but the fact remains that whether it is Mr. Mel Woodward's Firm or anybedy else, the cost of tanks cannot be met from even those charges, and if the cost of tanks has to be amortized, the cost of the fuel would be just incredible.

And that is what has happened,! believe,down in LaPoile, down in the bon. member's district where the cost of installing tanks would, if that has to be written off against the number of gallons of fuel oil sold each year, the cost would be just out of the question. So the only solution is for the government to provide the tanks.

And it may cost a few dollae•~ it will cost a few dollars and I know the Minister of Finance is not looking for ways to spend money this year of all years) but the fact remains, Sir, that these people are either to have these facilities provided by the government or they will not have them at all. I believe they are enti~led to them. I do not think it is something unreasonable. I do not think it is something be,ond aspiration, I think it is something which should happen.

And accordingly I would very much hope that the government will heed the prayer of this 'etition and provide these tanks, and in addition, will provide the comparable necessary facilities in the other communities along the entire Coast of Labrador, and in those communities on the Island where they are needed. MR. F. ROWE: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, MR. ROBERTS : Is the minister asking a question? MR. R. WELLS: Answering a question.

I would just simply like to table, if I may, the answer to a question asked by the bon. the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning) with respect to the Provincial 10469

June 9, 1976 Tape 3313 PlC - 3 Mr, Wells: involvement in the Marystown Arena. So I would just table that.answer, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEII<ER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. M. ROBERIS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the House Leader in the absence of just about everybody else wko is anybody else on the government side. Can the minister tell us whether the government will be bringing in legislation in this session in respect of the present or apparent or about to happen emergency with respect to water supplies here in St. John's?

I ask because I see Her Worship The Mayor is quoted as saying, that the matter is being discussed with the Premier and with the government ·, and t wonder if the minister could tell us whether legislation will be brought before the House? MR. SPEAKBR: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. R. WELLS: It is difficult to answer that, Mr. Speaker, Discussions may well have been held with the Premier on tha matter, but the matter has not yet been to Cabinet. So I cannot say that the government has taken 7 as such>any decision as yet. My understanding is though that the city has power to control the use of water.

I really do not know if legislation would help matters. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 10't70

June 9, 1976 TaJ'Ie 3 314 IP.-1 ~Ill . NOt.AN: They put water ~ters to the tune of ahouc $2SO,OOO or $300,000 in se>me homes so~ years a~o that were never used. '!.: 1·/Rt.l.!': That is riP.ht. Rut I must sav aj!ain thou~th, )'r . Speake-r, it would st>em co tnl' that titt>re is power inherent in the ci.tv and the 1 ocPl y.ov£'-rnT'l"'nt, in surromHiinp areas, to restrict the use of wate r H it hecol'les an ell't>rrPnrv hesjcles <>h:lch I think peoflle wj]) - '2!_,__,_~~ The hc~n. !"e.'"'lher for t~indsor-Buchans follo1.1ed by the hon . ~embrr fo r LaPo1le . ~"' .

FJ,TI":II'r: "r. ~reaker, this Cluest;lon to the Mjnister of l'anpo1~er an~ Tndustrjal ~elations .

In thP min:lster's statement he 1nd:lcated th:~t t~P Suchans Task Force Peport was pre$ ellte d to him tnllay and tlMt the r:nhinet \oJOuld now cons1.cler it , o;c ~~:overnment would now consider it for P. t~~ontt>,anti "'C"Iul<l then dedre whetht>r they would act nn any of its ffn(Hnrs . ~;ould tht> ll'inister no'"' advi se the 11ouse as to vhat tiR" he anticipates mAldnr that report p1.tbl:lc? -~q>~<;l'_!::AXP.P.: 'rht> hc>n . ~'fnist~'>T nf ~-'anwwer and Tnrlu.'ltrfn) llel;.tions . ~ . ~AYNAP~ : ~o, Yr. ~pe;~k~r, T do not know when the report ~~ll be TMrle public o< if 1nree<l it •·•ill he ma(le public. dt-c:1 !'ion . 7hP.

Buchnns TRsY ~orce Report is an internal •~rYin~ riocument An~ it is un tn ~overn~t>nt to make the rleciston not me Anr rovPrnment at this ti~e has not har the O?porttmity to even conside r the thfn!l,. _•'fl. PT.J(:llT : A supplerrtent11ry . Would tht> minister sclvis e tht> Fouse >~S to ,.;,etheT C"lr not he 1 s aware of any reasons why it she>uld not be Tl':tn<' public? ·~. MAYNART': Awar e of :~ny reasons why what? _"'R. Ft.Jc:HT: Whv the lluchans Tasl< Force Pepo r t should not be now macle puhliC" .

HP . ~·AYNAPT' : T nm not,at th;lf' t1me 1 Rwarr of any rea11on why it shoul,d not he li'SnP pubHc nnd t "~" t>ot ""'a l'(> 1 81: this time,of any re11s0n why it should he~"~~" public . ¥r. Speaker, ! have not had a chsnce to ;(>nrl anv Tl'OT<' thnn a c~apter or so vet. 1 just received it to~nv . The hon . l"el"her for T.nPoi 1 e . 1 0 ·'t 71

June 9, 1976 Tape 3314 IB-2 ~. NRARY: Yr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the ~inister of Fi nance, Sir. If the ~inister of Finance has an ounce of feelinr, or rep,arrl at all in h:ls bones for retired wardens, firemen, pol icemen and members of the. Old Comrades Assodat:!on and retired civil servants, would the minister indicate to the House if these people will be getting an increase in the:lr allowances, in their pensions this year. T ~now it was not provided for in the estimates. But will they be gettin g an increase th:!s year?

Retired wardens, firemen, policemen, members of the Old Comrades Association, retired civil servants? }'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of FiT)ance. ~. MUPPRY: See any of the Old Comrades? MR. DOODY: l'lr, Speaker, I know it is a serious que~tion but it was prefaced in a rather unusual way, The first thing I have got to do is decide whether I have an ounce of feeling or re~ard in my bones. I can assure the hon. member that I have considerable feeling in my bones particularly those in the right side of my body Which are afflicted with arthr:l .tis.

They make me very conscious of a tremendous number of feelings and this is one of the days, '~hen it is foggy like th:! s1 when I am very conscious of that sort of thing. So I can assure - SO~ RON, ME¥BEFS: Rear, hear! ~ffi.

DOODY: -the han. member that I do indeed have feelings :In my bones, 1•/'ith rep.ard to the pension th:!.ng, which is indeed a serious problem and one on which I have had conversation with various members of the retired public service, the constabulary, public service people generally, firemen and so on, this 1.s the first budget I th:l.nk in the last four or five bud~ets in which no provision was made for an i.ncrease in pensions for public servants.

There were a ~umber of areas in this particular budget where decisions "~<' ere taken which were certainly not very comfortable ones for us or very comfortable ones for people on fixed incomes. At the present time there are no jmmetl:l.ate pJans for chAnging that decision. It 'lorss done :In the 1:1 ght of the fiscal problems that 10472

.hme 9, t<J7"n TApe 3314 U-3 ~'T' • nOOIW : thP Pr~vjnce is now ~~pertenc1nP.. Hopefully n~xt year we will he inn positi~n to clo ~omething about it. But right now, Sir, the situAtjon is as it i~ in the hu~~et . There is no ~revi sion for an 1ncre11se in the puhlic service pensions. ~rr ._NY.A~L ~'r. Speoker - ?~ · _:~F~P : Tf. this :Is not a supple~entary I will recognize another han. nentlemAn . .L"'. •. 1\'F.I\l'Y: Yr . Speaker, I t<ould like to ask r.he hon . !'11in is te·r a ~upplementary question . ~~· noQDY: Ts it about my feelings now or about the pensions~ MP .

NF.Al'Y: Well T can see from the hon . minister's ans'-rer he does not have very mucl' fP.el :inr. for hjs fellow hutnan beinps . 1s this nn~wer now v,iven hy th~ minister ~efin1te1 Is the minister ~oing to rt>c~mdder or review tht> s1tuati.on 'Y'ith his colleagues? Is th1.s a tlefin:lte 'lnsvpr "e hAve now, there is going to be no increase :In pensions this veAr? t<R • TlOOj)Y : 1 ~lJ try to ans~~r it again. }11' .

Nf:!l.l':Y_:_ »asecl ~n t he cost of living . '1-<r. noonv: As I saic1 just a moment ago, at the present time tn~ situat:i.on is as :It was when the burlget was read some months atto. 'Ire no :Immediate plans for 11ny chan~e in the situation because the f1nanrial situation of the Provin ce cei"tainlv hal'\ not changed for the better since chat time. Further than that I c8.1!mot go. I cannot sav w.hnt i s p.o{np to happen in two months time or six months time or three months time. I can tell you exactly, Sir, What the situation js at the present time ancl this I have already done. 104_73

June 9, 1976 Tape 3315 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tpurism iD relation ~o the statement he made today about the publicity campaign. I wonder first of all would the minister indicate who is preparing those T.V. and radio items, whether they are bttng prepared within his department or by an outside firm, and,if so 1 could he identify the firm for the House? MR. SPEAKEk: The bon. Minister of Tourism. HON. T. V. HICKEY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I can give a very definitive answer on that 0 Any commericals or indeed any statements of any kind, press releases pr what have you,will be compiled within my department, will be done by the department staff, or myself. And I might say while I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, that we have a submission from one of the branches of the media, the others should be in in a few days. And I might also say, in relation to a comment made earlier with regards to by-elections, this has nothing to do with any by-elections. The programme indeed was started last year. 'MR. SIMMONS: Come on now, come on now~ MR.

HICKEY: Mr • Speaker, bon. gentlemen can say what they like, they can think what they like. Inde ~-d one cannot go to jail, Mr. Speaker, for what they think, but they sure can forwwhat they say. This programme, Mr. Speaker, started last year, and I can supply bon. gentlemen with definite proof of that, copies of releases, copies of tapes etc., and, Mr.

Speaker, that programme will con~inue except on a greater scale because,as I said, it was only introdueed last year, and I hope the fact that there are by-elections will not prevent hon. members, and not only myself, but bon. members of the House, I have asked, bon. members~of the House to join in this programme, and in their own way promote this programme, and they can do it, Mr. Speaker, if they will just take the opportunity to do so in making public statements. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A supplementary. 10~74

June 9, 1976 Tape 3315 PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I understand now from the minister that all the preparation was done by persons within his department, can he indicate when we might see the first results, when we might see the first spo~s on television, and that kind of thing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of TourismJ MR. HICKl:Y: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pride that I announce when the programme commenced officially, it was yesterday. MR. SIMMONS: Aw! MR. HICKEY: And I might also say, Mr. Speaker, it was not by me or any of my staff, but by the member for LaPoile.

And it was a very good comment, and I commend the hon. gentleman for it. I ~ not sure if we might have talked at one time or other ~uring the last year. MR. NEARY: ----- No. We did not get the Orders-in-Council. MR. HICKEY: But seriously, Mr. Speaker, - MR. MORGAN: Come on over, boy! - that is all the programme will be basically, it will be tapes or press releases - MR. WHITE: Prepared by the minister? MR. HICKEY: ------- Maybe a couple, Mr. Speaker. I am not camera shy. MR. SIMMONS: Norma, Gladys and Tom. MR. HICKEY: It is too bad that she is not back right now, Mr.

Speaker, it could do a great deal to promote this kind of a programme. But quite seriously I cannot give the hon. gentleman a definite date. Just as soon as we make a final decision with regards to the media, I hope at least within a week from that something •an comlllence. Because really, there is not going to be required any great deal of time to p~t the messages together, indeed they have already been done. We used a great number of them last year, and we feel they have brought some results)except it was late when we started it, and I hope that we can continue along the same lines this year. 10~75

June 9, 1976 MR. WHITE: MR. SIMMONS: MR. HICKEY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Tape 3315 How much will it cost? A supplementary. I have no idea yet. A supplementary. A supplementary. A supplementary. PK- 3

.June 9, 1Q76 Tape 3316 IB-1 1-!R • S HlMON S : Mr. Speaker, I thank the wjnister for his clarification because his answers indicate something ouite different. The statement gave me the impressi.on that it is rather a continuation of a programme rather than a p:reat new propra!lTII1e. ~lr. Speaker, a supplewentary. Can the minister indjcate what kind of budget figures have been set aside for thi .s, "'hat this particular propramme 1 as he has outli!}e~ in a statement earlier today,will cost the treasury, what budp,et figures did he have in mind and over what period of time? MP. S'PF.AK'F:l>: ~!Jl.

FIIrKF:Y: The l1on. l"inister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, I haye no idea and I ~o not want to mis1ead the hon. ~entleman or indeed the House by guessing at figures. I h~<ve not the foggiest notion at the moment in terms of actual dollars. I can tell my bon. friend that no new money is required. This money wouln come out of the subhead under general publicity and r~c'lvertising. There is a certain amount of flexibility there in terms of what kind of advertising one would do, be it television spots on the mainland, in the Atlantic region which we had hoped to start this yellr.

It conlcl very ,,,ell be that we might find it necessary to cut back on the number of radio spots in the Atlantic region because of the increase in ferrv rates. For example, Mr. Speaker, we had a pretty well developed prnp;rammP Sf't for this ypr~r 1 I mi~ht say, Your Honour, for the first time 1 to aclvert:fRP rlown in the Tlnitecl States through the medium of television)hec-ause the rates clown there were not qu~te as high as :In r.entral r.<Jnacla.

A1so to aclvertise in the Atlantic region for the first tim<> on radio and I a111 not au :I te sure, I do not belfeve, te1ev:lsion because television rates were not workE!d out with the Atlantic region. Tt was something that we were J.ookinR at and hoping to make a nec:l,;:!on on. But as a result of a number of factors 1one being the increase in ferry rates, it might well be that we mi_ght clec:lde to cut back some,vhat, not to any detrimental extent~but cut back somewhat and some 10477

June 9, 1976 Tape 3316 IB-2 }ffi. Rir.KEY: of the funds mipht well be diverted to the local scene as opposed to go:fnp to the TTn:fted States or to Centra] ranad1\. ~~-- ST~ONS; Yr. Speaker, I would like to p.ive notice that T am clissatisfie<' 1-'ith the answers to the questions and I '~auld l:lke to dehate it under Standing Order 31 (

r) at the appropriate time. ~ g~AKEJl: The hon. member for Baie Verte-IVhite Bay. ~- RIDEOl~: Thank y~u, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPE~KER: Everybody is supposed to be standing when the hen. _gentleman is sitt:l .np. MR. RIDEOnT: Sir, you can sit down. I have a question for the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that hospital workers at the Grace Hospital have apparently walked off the job,and in view of the fact that word has it that _other workers around in city hospitals are planninp to do so, could the minister :Inform the House what the situ~tion :Is currently wtth regard to the Grace Hospitallin part:i cular, Rnrl the others H it should come about that they w:f.ll be J e<1v:lng their jobs~ MR. SPF.AKEfl: _rm. mLLINS: The hon. Nin:lster of Health. }'r.

Speaker, I was made aware of the situati.on at the Crace 1ust a little while ago and I am sure the hon. member understands that it :Is an internal problem as it relates to that particular institution. We have a very competent board respons:l.ble for the operation of that institut:lon and a very capable administrat:l.ve staff and I would hope that they can resolve the problem. MR. RinEOl~: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for his answer but could the minister tell the Rouse whether or not) for example)any contingency operation plan has been worked out by the board or the board in conjunction with his departmeftt or whatever should the withdrawal of services conti.nue for, you know, some time? 1-'1!., COLLINS: The verv nature of the operation of hospitals, ¥r . Speaker, demands that contingency plans are ab~ays in place for any emergency. 10478

June q, 11)76 TRpP 3316 "'ll. SPF.Al<Rl!: The hon. l!'ember for Bellevue followec' bv the hon. me!'lher fe>r Lal'oiJ e anc' the hon . ~mher for r.oncepcfo:~ Bay Sonth. IB-3 '41' • r.ALtfo.N : "'r. !:pea~'er, a question for the l'ini~;ter of "unicipal Affllirs 1\nd 'lousinp .

Jn vtew of the f~ct tha: ~~ny ce>~1t1es, many, n>any COII!I!Itmitief; in onr Province have lArge problems, serious prohl elllS ~od th ~arhar.e di!:posal - T t~~ean hy that that a lot of l"llnkipRl ities have open pi!rhap.e dur.rps, no way of incinerat:fnr. the garbage and so on - what plans does ~overnment have to overcome thi~ pressinp prohlem? ~'1' . SPF.Al<P P: The hon . ~~nister of ~unicipal Affairs . "~ErKFO'Rn: ~·r . Speaker, that problem brou~ht up in the CJuestion from the hon . member for Bellvue (Mr. Callan) 10479

June 9, 1976 Tape 33l.7 PK- 1 Mr. Peckford : is a municipal problem to start with. It is,in the first instance, a municipal problem. But the !Overnment,if the bon. member looks at the estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs)will find under 1903-03-10, inctnerator and firefighting e~uipment, and there is an amount in the estimates this year of $500,000, which is cost shared 50/50 with municipalities for incineration as it applies to waste disposal sites. MR. CD.LAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, no doubt the bon. minister is aware that no incinerators have been manufactured in this Province since 1971, During 1971, during the previous administration, approximately thirty incinerators were manufactured at the Marystown Shipyard during a period of low employment for shipbuilding. Why has not this government continued the manufacture,and, therefore, the distribution of incinerators? MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr.

Speaker, there are two separate points on that question 0 ~e, deals with the supply of incinerators in the Province, the other deals with the demand for incinerators within the Province, and hence they are linked very closely. One talks about the manufacturing of incinerators in the Province. The demand has not been that great over the last few years.

One of the reasons for that is the environmental controls that are placed on areas that have been approved as waste disposal sites and are now becoming, not obsolete, but have used up most of the good land that they had, and an incinerator if it is too close to a highway, the waste disposal site is becoming obsolete, these kinds of problems. So the demand for incinerators has not been of sufficient amount to warrant the production in a large way, in an economic way of incinerators. In recent months the demand has p1cked up from municipalities for a number of kinds of incinerators.

To my knowledge recently a number of municipalities 10ft80

June 9, 1976 Tape 3317 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: have purchased incinerators in Nova Scotia, because there was not the kind available here, environmentally and so on. So I am only answering the question just from a common sense point of view rather than from any specific knowledge. The only knowledge I have is that in the department the demand has not been that great.

The demand has picked up somewhat in the last couple of months, and a number of municipalities have been inquiring about it, and are going to be participating in the programme that I alluded to earlier, and if the demand is such that some kind of manufacturing can occur I am sure we will take the necessary steps to see that it is done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I am dissatisfied with the answer, and I would like to debate the issue on the late show following the National News tomorrow evening. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, with reference to the Minister of Public Works and Services. In view of the - MR. SPEAKl"R : Order, please! I believe the hon. minister wishes to ask leave for RON. A. J. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would just lile to add something to what the Minister of Municipal Affairs. has said,with reference to a question. HR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister have leave? SOME HON . MEMBER~:. Agreed. MR. MURPHY: During recent weeks,and months actually, the Department of the Environment have been very much concerned with the same matter as brought forth by the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

As we kno~ within an incorporated area 1 the council themselves are responsible for garbage disposal and this type of thing. But we have many dozens of waste disposal~sites,outside of the municipal areas, where the Department of the Environment establishes committees, and we are hoping, and ple• are being formulated for incinerators wherever it is possible providdng funds are available. And to that purpose, Sir, I would like 10481

June 9, 1976 Tape 3317 PK - 3 HR. MURPHY: to mention, and I think that most are aware, that ongoing discussions have been held with the Department of Industrial Development, with the minister and his officials. Perhaps it would provide something for Marystown, as the hon. member has suggested, to take up the slack down there, and also to provide a very necessary need because, I think, Mr. Speaker, we must all be aware today that we face a problem that was not in existence twenty years ago when, in our homes, many of us had coal stoves and wood stoves.

We burned 90 per cent of the stuff that we now put out in garbage bags, right? And this is a big problem we found, And there is a very satisfActory one, I think, in the hon. member's district of Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), in the Kelligrews ~rea, in that there is not one complaint with the incinerator that was placed there. MR. NOLAN: Except from the man who fell into it last year 0 or this year. MR. MURPHY: Did he fall into it? MR. NOLAN: He fell right out of the truck into the incinerator. MR. MURPHY: Is that right? Perhaps this is a forerunner of this crematorium they are all looking for in Newfoundland.

I think that is the answer, Sir, and we are trying to develop it to the best of our ability, and when funds are available we hope to have them instead of the ordinary land fill we have now. MR. SPEAKER: The bon, the member for LaPoile. 10~82

'!'ape 3318 IB-1 }IR. NEARY: ----- A question to the Yinister of Public Works and Services, Sir. Yesteri!ay "rori! 1eakec1 out that a French-Canadian company may take over the Health Sciences Complex ~anap.ement project ann fini~h the project. The question I want to put to the minister is, what will become of the jobs of the many hundreds of Newfoundlande.rs who are working on that project 1 espedally the former employees of Scrivener Projects Newfotmdl and L:l~ite>di' VJUl their jobs still be there if the minister takes the decision to bring in this French-Canadian company calleCI SNr? ~rn.

SPEAKFP: '!'he hon. ~rinister of Public Works. nll. FARllELL: l'r. Speaker, the hon. member is quite correct when he says the news cHd le>Rk out. Tt certainly i!id. But it leal<ed out a little inc-orre>ctly because even I, I repeat, I, do no know at this moment what company will take over that project because there must be - our recommendations of the Department of Public Horks must be in agl:"eement with the receiver ac.tua1ly as most people know.

So at this moment I i!o not kno"' but I can say that last Fall approximately, when I first heari! that Scrivener Umited r•ere in difficult:fes,ancl ohviottsl_y Scrivene,.. Newfoundlanrl I.imi.tec1 "mu]cl follow, I became quite c-oncernec1 and T instituterl proceeninp.s in the c1epartment for an orner1v t.~ke over if this cHr1 occu,.. and thl't the rights of Rll "rorkers he protected, that there he no break in their continuity of employment, etc.

I can tell you ripht now and I can assure the bon. member that if - anrl I sav if - a foreign company - I mean hy that from outside Ne~,·foundl <tnd and l.abrac1or - does p.et this contract that none of the workers employed by Scrivener at this time will be affected. As a matter of f<'tct T vill ~:lve h:im my persona] ruarantee that none of them .wn 1 he <tffecten by i'tny takeover. HR. NEARY: 1\ !<npp]eme.ntary cmest:!on, >rr. Spealrer. I th;mk the hon. mini!<ter for pfv:!n11; me Rttch a frank anc'l honest answer.

I would l:lke to Hsk the l'linfste,.. \,•hy it is necessary,when there :IR such a shortage of 1-10r!c for enp:ineer:inp; firms and arch :I tects and con!'ltruction people in

June 9, 1976 Tape 3318 IB-2 W. NF.Al'Y: Newfoundland, why it is necessary to go outside of the Province to bring in a French-r.anaclian company owned by gentlemen called Surveyer, Nenniger and Chenenvert. Could we not get Newfoundlanders to complete the 1ob? DR. FARFEI.T.: ~r. Speaker, actually I could give some partial answer at this time because it is a huge project of a very specialized nature. It is absolutely essential that it be completed as soon as possible and as well as possible. This :f.s a great part of ·my concern at the present t:fme.

For that reason we have had to consider people who have had expertise in this area, and mainly for that reason we have looked at outside people because they are not available in the Province. MP. NF.AP.Y: }lr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister aware that the pro .1ect is in its f:f.nal stages and all that needs to . be done is the finish work, the plastering and that sort of thing? r.ould not this work be supervised by Newfoundlanders, by gentlemen who had already worked on the project? nR.

FARRELL: The whole system is in receivership, Sir, and at this time it means actually that the remainder of the contract which 1s about , approximately,seventy-five per cent complete -I agree w:fth thP. hon. member it is, you know the fi.nal touches • electrical, mechanical and plasterinp., etc. that remain to be done but there is still a large expenditure of money involved and we must have the best possible expertise at this time to see that that :fs not overspent or kept within bounds.

Now it will mean,actually and very likely , that only one incl:lvidual hocly will be involved in the takeover or transfer of this project. I think,basically,one or two at the most. ~. NF.Al'Y: ~r. Speaker, a final supplementary ouestion. ~. SPEAKEP.: One further supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House why the lowest bidder~ who in this particular case, I understand, was a Mr. Purdy who was a 10~84

.June 9, 1CJ76 "'are 1318 T'B-3 "!1'. NPAI'Y : former ~mployPe of ~criv~ner, thr former project mana~er ~~o ~or~ed fnr Scrivener, who no,.· O'lmS A company callecl C:omanec and 1.1as the l owest h iclrie~ whv the mini~ter ancl the ~overnment did not see fit to award rhe rontrarr fc-r thP complettnn of the project to ~'r .

Purdy and to ronanec ro~~truction. nr . 'FfiT>'PFJ.T.: roul<i vou re)'le<~t thi!t? ·~~=- Yes, ~·r . ~peaker. \lv question to the minister is why did the povern~.nt not see fit to award the contract to Yr. furrly who ~sa fo~r project manager for Scrj vener1 who formed his own company, w'lo i s nov on t he site as a consultant with a company called r.omanec who bill ~200,000 less than their closest binder? 1-/hy were thev not offere~ the contrAct?

June 9, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 3319 The hon. minister, Page 1 - mw DR. FARRELL: I have just said at least four times, Your Honour, that no decision has been made up to this point, number one. I am really amazed at the hon. member coming up with the last point. MR. DOODY: His reliable snarce found out. DR. FARRELL: Very reliable sources.

But the point is that no decision had been made at that time, When it is made I will give a full explanation and the reasons and the further expenditures that will be necessary if the receiver - do not forget, I repeat, that the bids were made to the receiver, not to me, as Minister of Public Worka; But we have to agree with them, and then the receiver has to agree with our recommendations. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR.

NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications regarding an accident that occurred in the early hours of the morning on Topsail Hill, just East of the post office in Topsail where someone was almost killed. The car went in through the fench of one of the homes there. This is only the latest of many accidents in the same area. People there tell me- in fact I know, tbat they have contacted, not the minister personally, but his officials asking for one guardrail there, because it has not just been one accident, it is many} ancVor to straighten up the road.

But it appears that something must be done. I wonder if the minister would undertake to examine the situation as I have outlined it. I can give him phone numbers, names, a¥Ything he wants, because it is a serious problem, and I would appreciate knowing whether~one, if any of it has been brought to his attention in the past or now, and would he consider looking into the situation to see what can be done there? MR. SPEAUR: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN'! Mr.

Speaker, I was not aware of any accident that occurred in that area yesterday evening or laat night, and I have not received any 10486

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3319 Page 2 - mw Mr. Morgan. representation from any residents in the area. But I will be only too pleased to sit down with the hon, gentleman after the Question Period today and get the information, and if necessary take some corrective action. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, perhaps the Government House Leader can tell the Housewwhether or not there are any further developments regarding the possible reopening of the Come-by-Chance refinery? What is the status of negotiations now?

And is there any possibility of having the refinery reopened in the near future? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. WELLS: ---· I do not think there is anything more to add there, Mr. Speaker, than was explained by the Premier some days ago. There are people, you know, always in a thing like that, a project of that size or a problem of that magnitude, who were in touch with the receiver who may wish to talk to the government, but I think the biggest job the receiver has in this is to sort out the serious ones from those who just express a passing interest.

So I tlink there is nothing really beyond what the Premier said a few days ago. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Could the Minister of Transportation and Communications tell the House what has happened to the proposal that the minister made to the Government of Canada to try to get a cost-shared project to upgrade, and to twin, and to widen, and to resurface the Trans-Canada Highway? Has the minister had any communications recently from Ottawa in connection with this request? And if so, would the minister tell the House just What is happening, give us a progress report? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGANt Mr. Speaker, that submission was made to Ottawa, and negotiations have taken place since the submission was made to the 10487

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3319 Page 3 - mw Mr. Morgan. Federal Minister, the hon. Otto Lang. Since the submission has been made, the federal officials have been in Newfoundland on two different occasions. They were here less than two weeks ago, and the submission is now being dealt with as well by the Federal/Provincial Committee and Atlantic Transportation Committee which i~ cOmprised of representation from both the federal level of government, officials from the level in Ottawa and also officials of the governments concerned in the Atlantic region.

So the submission is being analyzed and scrutinized and additional information gathered at the official level, and we are hoping - when I aay, we, the Atlantic Provinces, the ministers responsible for transportation.­ we are hoping to get some kind of indication from the federal minister 1 lome time this Summer, that they will go along with this kind of a programme and have the necessary funds allocated in next year's federal budget. MR. SPEAKER: One final question and answer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Spe~er,my · question again is to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

The minister spoke some time ago about making seat belts compulsory in Newfoundland, Does the minister intend now or does the minister have any plans to make it compulsory for Newfoundlanders to buckle up in the foreseeable future? MR. SPEAKER MR. MORGAN: The hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, a number of matters pertaining to highway safety is under consideration - They have been for some time. and still are - one of them being the possibility of legislation making the use of seat belts compulsory, and the other is the possibility of reducing the speed limit on the Trans-eanada Highway.

And, of course, the third one was the changing of the signs on the frans-canada Highway. The changing of the signs is now being carried out. They are changing these signs which did ready, "Slower Traffic Keep Right." The line markings and the line paintings are now being carried out across the 10488

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3319 Page 4 - mw ~ · ~1organ. Trans-Cana da Highway. They should be completed by the end of this month, the month of June . And then after that the traffic en~ineer will be assigned to make sure all the line markings are done properly to comply with the new signs which will read, "Keep Right Except To Pass." So all these three things were under conside .ration, but a decision made on one only to date, and the other cwo are st-ill under consideration. l0489

June 9, 1976 Tape 3320 PK - 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPE.AKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. R. WELLS: By consent of the House Private Members'Day will not be held today, and we proceed with government business, Mr. :;lpeaker. MR. SPEAKER: I understand there is consent that we proceed with government business1 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Agreed? Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4. Motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the advancing or guaranteeing of certain loans, Bill No. 86, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please! RESOLUTION: "That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Lean and Guarantee Act, 1957, the Act No. 70 of 1957, to provide for the advance or guarantee of loans to certain individuals and for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the repayment of bonds or debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain corporations." MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Fina~ce. RON. c. W. DOODY: Vr. Chairman, this is the regular amendment to The Loan and Guarantee Act, of 1957 which is brought before the House each'year.

It is an accounting and a listing of the government guaranteed loans which have been entered into with various enterprises during the fiscal J&ar just passed. I think this is probably ·one of the shortest and smallest such bills on record 0 There are only seven companies or seven involvements, seven guaranteed loans listed here. But maybe if I could take a moment of the Committee's time, I could run through each of them and explain the purposes of them. 10490

June 9, 1976 Tape 3320 PK - 2 The first one of them is Bell-Haven Fisheries Limited. That was a guaranteed loan of $50,000.00, The loan was to be used for working capital pumposes, and for the acquisition of ice-making facilities. It was for a one year period, and it expires on September 1, This operation is in Belleoram, in the bon. member's district, I think. Belleoram is in Fortune-Hermitage~ This is the Bell-Haven Fis.heries in Belleoram. I do not know the gentleman's name, I cannot remember it, I certainly did know it. MR. J. WINSOR: Kearley. MR. DOODY: Kearley, exactly. A Mr. Kearley.

The gentleman came back to Belleoram, I think he had been away, he saved some money, came back, started a small fish operation down there. The major interest that we took in it, . as I remember at the time, was the fact that he was providing some competition to the Harbour Breton operation up the road, and I think it was of some benefit to the fishermen in the area to have an alternate aource of a purchaser. The gentleman was short of working capital. He did need ice-making facilities, so we guaranteed that $50,000 loan for him. The loan at the present time is - the interest is in arrears some $2,000.

We have not moved on it because,as I say, it is an individual, it is a small company. I hope that the operation succeeds. I think it was an asset to the area. The fishermen in the Belleoram area certainly should have an opportunity to have such an operation there. The second one, Mr. Chairaan, is the Botwood Lumber Company Limited. This was $170,000, because it authorized the bank loan was issued to this company, and it was for financing a sawmill , and a lumber upgrading facility. The guarantee is for a five year period and it expires on July 15, 1910.

Up to March 31, 1976 the company had drawn down $153,000 of the total credit. I do not know if they have taken up the balance of it since or not. The principal behind that particular operation, and the people in it, Mr. Harry Baldwin of Botwwod, a Mr. Barrett, a Mr. Jewer, and another Baldwin, 1 tH91

June 9, 1976 Tape 3320 PK - 3 Mr. Q_o.E_dy_:_ all of Botwood. I think that they are struggling. I do not really think that the thing is really the outstanding success that we had hoped it to be. But the object of that exercise, as I remember, was that there were a vhole lot of small sawmills in that area, spread all around that area,and none oftbhem were big enough to get into an upgrading facility, the planing mill, and a standardizing operation to put out a good product and a good quality product.

These people put in some capital of their own, but not enough to be able to standardize and put in the equipment to buy the rough lumber from all these small mills,so the operation was designed to upgrade and to make more profitable a whole series of small operations in the Botwood area. I think thatJeventually 1 it will be a success because the concept is good, and once ag•in it is a small local comapny, and there is no eeason in the world why the gUarantee should not have been given. The next one is a situation which is somewhat similar, it is a Gander Lumber Company.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation hav~ an interest in there n~ together with the Baird family. Edgar Baird and his family have operated it for years. They got into sertous difficulty during the slump in the sawmill industry last year, and a guaranteed bank loan of $185,000 was offered. MR. NEARY: Who is it owned by? MR. DOODY: Pardon? MR. NEARY: Who is it owned by? MR. H. COLLINS: Edgar Baird. MR. DOODY: Edgar Baird has operated that mill for years and years out there.

And the Newfoundland and Labrador Developaent Corporation are also involved n~, they have an equity and loan position in there. They had gone as far as they could. For working capital purposes and to keep the operation going we subsequently guaranteed the loan that is listed here. The loan is up to date. The balance of the loan and interest and payment and so on are all up 10492

June 9, 1976 Tape 3320 PK - 4 Mr. Doody: to date, and it seems to be coming along very nicely. The next one is the Humber Cold Storage Limited. This loan is for working capital. It is for a ten year period. The principals of that company are Thomas J. Dunphy, Mary Dunphy and Leonard Hawco of Corner Brook. Once again this was for a local operation out there, for working capital purposes, and the balance outstanding DR. FARRELL: Where is it located? MR. DOODY: Corner Brook. AN RON . MEMBER: Curling. The Curling area. MR.

DOODY: The loan has been reduced to $114,000, and the interest is paid up to date, and it is going along quite well. They are not in arrears to government. As a matter government is not involved into any of these except the guarantee. The next one is for $44,000 guarantee for a gentleman named Raymond Johnson. This was issued to enable him to finance the construction of a pilot boat for use in Humber Arm in Corner Brook. Mr.

Johnson_, as I remember it 1 had a firm contract with the harbour management people out there 0 I do not know if it was the National Harbours Board or MOT,or whoever has the responsibility for the harbour,they gave him a firm contract for a number of years but - MR. NEARY: What about the capital? MR. DOODY: - but he did not have the capital to build the boat. He has drawn down some of the mnney. The boat had not been finished up to the time these notes were prepared.

But in any event the amount of ·money which he will get in the contract will be more than sufficient to amortize the interest and the principal on his loan from the bank which we have guaranteed. This is one of the weird and wonderful things of this world 0 The bank,in this particular case as in many of these cases, and banks are weird and wonderful institutionsJ they are quite willing to give Mr. Johnson a $44,000 loan. They have in one hand! a guaranteed contract from a Federal Government Department. in the other hand they have a g~a~antee from 10493

June 9, 1976 Tape 3320 PK- 5 M:r . Doody: the Government of Newfoundland, and on the otber hand they will charge the gu:1 s big fat interest rate while they sit back and clip up their profits . That has been the history of the banking system in this Province~ There are no risk capitalists around . here, I em afraidJor very fe~. The next one, Northwest YiBheries Limited is Dunphy's Fisherie s Limited of- the principals are Dunphy's Fisheries Limited of Curling.

This is a guaranteed bank loan to enable the company to purchase a modern combination seiner stern dragger The Lady Patricia - MR • .NEARY: I s that same Dunphy, Joe? MR. DOODY: Yes . This one is for - this is another c~?SDY but it is the same principals, I thin~ . D~ FARRELL: Right. Yes. MR, DOODY: Dunphy's Fisheries. And this was to eaable the~~~ to operate the herring business in a 1!1ore profitabl~ and reasonable Planner. Once again this loan ,.. ,..

June 9, 1976 Tape 3321 IB-1 MP, nrnnY: is befnp, reduce~ on

schedule and the interest is paid up to date • It appears to be goinJI; very well and there is no reason to have any concern" about :1 t. _l:fl'~_NEAT!Y: They have c1ra"'Il Clown the $150,0()0? -~ DOOnY: _ They have dra'>rn down the $15(1, flOO. That was the amount that was necessary to purchase a boat. own in there of course. They have had so~e money of their Ml', Nl'_.APY: Is there any more employment involved here? J'P. normv: Yes. This enables them to operate more efficiently :In the herr~_np: industry. They are able to p,et b:lp;p;er product:! ;nn in their herrinp. plant out there.

The Lady P11.tr:!cia is a modern herrtnp, seiner stern drap,ger such as they have not hac! on the West Co;o~st before. It was an experimental effort in one sense since no other company :fn the Province had gotten into that operation to that extent. We encouraged them, as I remember it, to get that part:! cular host and 1 t seel11S t.o he doing welJ • The last one there is a gentleman named Joseph Ploughman 1.,rho has been authorized a guaranteed bank loan of $10,000 to he :Issued to Mr.

PJ oughman at Port au Choix to enable him to make the requisite no~mpayment on the purchase of a hoat through the Fisheries Loan Board. Now at that t:lme the do1mpayment for a lonp;liner was much higher than it is now. We have reduced it ancl changed the rules and regulations. Jlut at th<'lt t:lme }<r, Plouphman was right on the erl~e of the time when the new programme was cnminp. into effect. In orcler to enable him to get the longJiner when he needed it the hank loan :Is guaranteed at $10,000.

The interest is paid up to date and I understand from the notes that r have here that the Fisheries Loan Board wj 11 take over that Joan. Rut whether that is so'or not I cannot say. But it is rE'!all y :Immaterial since 1-'r. Ploughman himself is reducing the loan and payinp the lnterest. So, as I say, there are relatively fe"' this year anc1 they are all rel~ttively secure. Thank you, Sir. ~'R • CRAI RMAN : The hon. member for LaPoile. 10495

- ~ June 9, 1976 Tape 3321 Il\-2 ~<n. NF.APY: ~·r. rha:lnnan, the minister has given us an explanation as he sees it on !!lOst of these loans and guarantees. · The one I want to zero :In on is the $150,000 for Northwest Fisher:l.es Lim:lted. Hen. membeTs of the House mav remel!1ber that Northwest Fisheries Limited is the company owned, I would say, mainly by the funphys, the company that wantec'! to hu:llrl a herrin~~: plant in rurl:lnp:. They wantec'! to build a fish meal plant in rurling and quite a controversy c'!eveloped in the area as to the location of the plant.

I am not sure :l.f there were petitions circulated but certainly there was stronp, objection and I believe petit:!ons circulated objecting t9 the cortst _ruction of this plant, this fish meal plant, herring plant :l.n r.url ing. This was prior to the last provinci.al election. As a result the hon. the Premier who has an interest in that T'arti.cular area decided - I do not know if it was at the request of the company or :If the hon .. the Prell'ier took the in:l.tiative - clecic'!ec'! that the plant should be locatec'! in a d:!fferent area. 1m. nonnY: ~!11. NEAl'Y: A reC]nest of the town council.

A request of the town council. Vel J then the hon. the 'Premier accec'!e<'l t.o the request that the plant be 1 ocate(! in another nrea and the area that was chosen ~'as a place called York Harhonr. So the plant is now located at York Harbour. VP. MODY: In a place called Island Cove near York Harbour. 1"1'. NF.ARY: Islan<'l r.ove near York Harbour. And, Yr. C'ha:lnnan, for this 1 ittle concession, for this little goody that ~!aS passed 011t before the last election> the company, Northwest Fisheries L:!mited 1 "'ere. given a governl'lent guarantee, a bank loan of $150,000.

The l'linjster tells us that jt is currently up to date. ~~1'. H. CA~TEl': One hundrec:l and thirty-five. ~W. NEi\~Y: Well the $135,000 was for the -no, not the $135,000 . n. H • .!::_AP.TF.P: One hunc:lred and twenty-fi.ve then. }'!'. NEAr~- Nn, the .. ~'l'. 1-1 . CAFTE~: It is $150,000 ann $125,000. ~- · NF./ol'Y_:_ One hunc'!red and t'!>•enty-five was for cold storage. Well 10496

Tape 3321 IB-3 1"1'. NF.ftJlY: both operations were supposed to p:o hand in rJove, were supposed t,o go tor,ether until the p~op]e kicked up a fuss about the possibility nf pollution fro~ the plant. So they mcved it ilown to Islan~ rove and for thAt 1 ittle move, for that little favour, granted so that nohoclv "t.rould rock the heat before the election, the government aj!:reed to pive Northwest Fjsher1es Limited $150,000 of a government guarantee. t'r.

C::ha:! rman, I am glad to hear the minister say that the company so far has heen paying the interest because I am told, S:lr, - and T ilo not kno1,,, perhaps the minister can confirm th:fs - hut in my brief stopovers that I have had in the great western c:lty of Corner 1lrook, :In my hrie:U stopovers that I have hacl on my way either coming or po:fnp to LaPoile district)! have been told by resirents :In the area that that plant, that herring plant has not prnnuce<l a s:lnpl e tnn 0f f. ish ~eal since tt was built. l'fR. WOODROW: l'ttat is not so. ~~ . .

NEARY: Well the me~ber says it is not so. people m1o are tellinp me must he misinformed. Well then the MR. WOODROW: I wish I h:1cl the worth. of the fish meal that is being produce<l. I would not 1:-e in this House of Assembly. Hn ._ ~1' AllY~- Hhen was 1 t pronucerl? ~11'. lWOTIPmr: It has been producing ever since it was built except for last ~Tinter. ~~r. N1'::;6.T'Y: l•'Pll, Sir, I have been told that not a truck load of herrin~ - MJ' • HOODTI0P: Tn fact J saw about a tori. There were 200 or 300 sacks of T!'eal there about two TT'Onths ago. 1"1'.

NRAPY: Hell there seeT"s to he a di.fference of opinion then between 1"h"t the hon. mPmher is savin!?, ann ~·hat ~y informants :In Corner Brook h"ve heen tellinp Me. So,therefore,without mak:lng any charges or "ccnsAt:lons or insinuat:lnns or innuendos or anything else I c.ell upon the ~inister who :1" pilot:lnr, this bill through the House to g_ive us a progress r•port, a cletailed report. The hon. minister can get it 10497

June 9, 1976 Tape 3121 IB-4 _Ml'. NF'~PY: fairly quickly by just call:ln~~: the minister's officials, if he hl'ls to. Give us <1 report on how that plant has been performing since it ~or the government loan of $150,000, a little favour f~r relocat1ng in Island Cove. How much fish meal have they produced? How much herring have they processecl and how ~l'lny jobs has it created? Now these are pretty fair questions and the minister is a responsi.ble and reasonable incliviclual who w:l U have no hesitation I am sure :!.n provicl:lnj? the House with this information.

The min:l.ster cannot just brush it off by sayinp;, "Wel1 I do not have t'he :l.nfonnat:lon at my fingertips but I will get it tomorrow or next da.y." Tomorrow or next clAy 111ay he too late. The House may be closed and I want to get the information before we pass this bill. r.<R. DOODY: It is go:ln~ to he c11fficult becausewe are go:inp to have to p:et :In touch w:fth the company. "11'. NFAPY: Oh, it is ~oinp: to be difficult.

Well all the minister h<~s to clo is call up his colleague, the ~:lnister of Fisheries, ancl I am sure that :lnformat:l~n,-if they do not h<~ve the statisticR, I do not know why thev cRll themselves the Department of Fisheries. Are they there .1nst to rubber st<~mp decisionF< that are 111acle :In Ottawa? They must h<~ve statistics on all the plants across Newfoundland. We hearc'! the ~'inister of Fisher:!.es only last week tell the House about alJ the increases in production in the. various fish plants across Ne,.,,f~undland in the first quarter of this year compared to the first qlil'lrter ~f last yel'r.

I feel sure, Sir, that there iR somebody in the Department of Finance or in the Department of Fisheries who can pive us a propress report on the operation of th:IR plant in terms of prodnct:lon, how many "'eeks or how many months it has operatecl since :It t>as built, how rumy johs it has created and so on anci so forth? Now T th:lnk that :Is a fa1r request. The minister is askinr the House to approve $150,000 for. this company plus another $125,000 fnr 1t's sister company, the Humber Cold Storage Limited.

That is a fair request and I l'>el :!eve the min:!.ster o"res 1t to thf' House to Rive the House this :lnformat:lon hefore we. pass this L01m ancl Guarantee Act. 10498

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3322 Page 1 - mw MR. SMALLWOOD: Mav I ask the minister if the explanations that he gave here today are the first explanations that have been given to the House about these seven enterprises? Because if these explanations, and these accounts by the minister of these seven enterprises in which the government has provided credit averaging $100,000 each, seven enterprises, roughly $700,000, average $100,000 each, are the only explanations that the House has had, I have to say frankly that there are not enough explanations. MR. NEARY: ---·- Mr.

Chairman, I hate to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but there are only eight or nine members in the House. Could we have a quorum call, Mr. Chairman? MR. J. CARTER: That is enough. MR. NEARY: That is not enough. You need fourteen for a quorum in this House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I would ask the Law Clerk to count the House. I have been informed that a quorum is present. The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, these seven anterprises have cost approximately $100,000 each of public credit. We have no explanation except the one given by the minister and that is really not enough.

If these seven enterprises between them would give jobs to 100 people, it would be excellent. That would come only to about $7,000 per job. And I would like to see - 1f that is the case - I would like to see it multiplied tenfold, twentyfold, a hundredfold in Newfoundland. If you multiply this by twenty, it would give you 2,000 jobs, and if you multiply the $700,000, roughly $700,000 by twenty, it is $14 million. Well if with an expenditure of public credit of $14 million you can create 2,000 jobs, you could indeed, Mr. Chairman, congratulate Newfoundland, congratulate the government on such a fine achievement.

But we do not know how many. 10~99

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3322 Page 2 - mw Mr. Smallwood. No one has told us what jobs have been created by this average of $100,000 per enterprise for the seven enterprises, and it is not fair to the Committee, It is not fair to the House.

These seven enterprises are involved in the fisheries of the Province, and in the ~ood resources of the Province, and in agriculture in the Province, I believe) so that the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture are involved 1 and we have heard nothing that I know of - and I .. y not be doing them justice when I say this - but se far as I know they have told us nothing about these seven enterprises.

It is left to the Minister of Finance to give us a very sketchy, admittedly a very sketchy outline, and a very inadequate account of those seven enterprises, because if you are not going to have the big industry syndrome, and you are going to have small enterprises employing six, eight, ten, fifteen, eighteen, twenty men, thirty, forty men, if you are going to have that, that is just fine, but at least I think the Committee does deserve to know and is entitled to know more than the minister has given us. Now I am not saying this in any carping spirit.

I applaud the government for having advanced those sums of the public credi~ 1 $700,000. But I would like to know what the results are in the jobs created? Could the minister, I wonder, give a little attention to what I am saying? I can read and listen, but I find myself unable to talk and listen at the same time. But maybe the Minister of Finance has that knack. If so, it is a very lucky knack. If he could add to that the capacity to read, and listen and speak all at the one time, he would be a wonder indeed.

What I am asking him is that he will endeavour if he can, if he has the information, to tell us how many jobs, more or less full-time jobs now, not purely transitory things, not just, you know, come day, go day, God send Sunday, but honest to God full-time more or less, relatively speakin.g, permanent jobs. Because if there are a hundred such jobs, 10500

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3322 Page 3 - mw Mr. Smallwood. ------ then Newfoundland can congratulate itself, that at a cost of only $7,000 a job, $700,000 for 100 men in seven· industries, seven1 projects, that is excellent. Would the minister please tell us a little more about it? And I ask in complete sympathy. This i~ not a peanut, pettjfogging criticism at all. It is nothing like it. MR. NOLAN: Relative to what the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) has mentioned, often times, as I am sure the minister know,.~ people do come to government for monies to finance alleged industries of one kind or another, and there is some suspicion. In fact I often times feel that members in government are npt always properly informed~! do not blame them necessarily - about jobs, whether they are transient temporary jobs. It is nice to come into the Minister of Industrial Development, for example, in an attempt to sell him or his officials on the fact that you might have twenty jobs or what have you. It seems very attractive.

I wish we only had more people employing twenty people in this Province. But the fact is, I think, a d~ghter rein should have been held in the past, and today)on those who come to get funds, public money, and are really attmapting to get money from government, whatever agency it is.for some alleged entrepreneur, and really they are not permanent jobs, which ~what I am sure the government is interested in.

Now on the list that we have before us, on say Bell-Haven Fisheries Limited, I understand that was incorporated or registered, at least, in January 21, 1974 by Noel Goodridge, who is now a judge I believe, and the shareholders on the original list are Gordon Sterling, Noel Goodridge and Mike Harrington, all lawyers, I assume. Now there is no share list yet filed, to the best of my knowledge. MR. NEARY: That is a breach of the Companies Act, MR. NOLAN: Well, that may be. But the fact is that there is no sha!e list filed as yet. Perhaps the minister might want to comment Gn that. 10501

June 9, 1976 ~ape no. 3322 ?age 4 - mw HR. NOLAN: And the notice of mortgage, chat1:el and floating chnrge is held ~y the Minister of Indust=ial Develop~ent, as ! understand -t - and this was ciated October S, 1975. Now we go to .:ne Botwooc!. :.umber Company. The shareholdzrs anc officers there, Oece:b'"r 31, i.97:> -..•e h.E.ve, Hnny 3aldwt..., the president with forty shares; D. ~. Jewe=, th~ vice-~resia~nt with 155 shazes; W. F.

Barrett, secretary treasurer, 155 snar~s, and Gwen Saldwin w!th 100 stu res. 7"ne mortgage of leasehola property, personal guarantees, floating charge and personal ~&arantees he~d as security by the Ydnister o: Finance, and tbis is dated, I think , - I am subjec: to correction - on July -•• !975. As for t~e Gaud~ Lumber Cc~pany L1m1tea, the shareholcers and officers, Dec~er 3-, 1975, according to ~/ information are: E. 3aird, 8 Memorial Drive, Gander, president, 1,598 shares; M. Baird, again of Gander, same address, secretary, one sr~re; W. Baird, 10502

June 9, 1976 '!'ape 3123 IB-1 !'1'. NC1LAN: - --- ·---- s11me address. Treasnrer, 901 shares. J. RFd rrl, same address, one sh<Jre. '!'he Newfoundland ancl Labrador Jlevelorment r.orporatton has I ,500 shares in this enterprise at the moment. I notice I have ~ note here - and the ~fnjster mi?ht make 11 note of this to correct me bec;mse T am not ouite sure what :It :Is. I have a total debt of ~161,]11,;. Th<1t is in reference I believe to the Gander Lumber r.omp<lny J~imitecl.

And if they have a total debt of $163,186, if my :Information is correct,and in view of the fact that you have loaried them $115,000 l .am just wondering where they stancl at the moment financi alJ y :In this Prov:fnce and ho"' many jobs they are prov:l ding.? The l!ul!'ber rol<l Storage U .mi.ted, shareholders and officers nf necemher 31, 1974. Thomas Dunphy, 4 Elswick Road, ror.ner Brook, ninety-eir,llt shares. He is pres1.dent. '1-'ary nunphy, same adi!ress, one share, secretary "ncl I.eonard Hawco, one share.

I assume Hawco :Is the lawyer. 'T'he debenture is helrl by industrial development or the Industrial nevelopment Boar.cl and this is dated Aprii 27, 1970, releasen on Janu,.ry 29, 1973. ll y final notl\tion here, '1-'r. Cba:!.rman, i.s Northwest Fisheries J.:!mited, shareholders ann officers of Jlecemher 31, 1975. !hmphy 's Fiflherjefl I,imited - this is in reference now to Northwest Fisheries ,,,ho have frolll the p;overnment, at least throup.:h th:!fl company, $150,000. l'nnphy'A F1!'!her1E>s, 4,798 shares. F. Punphy, TUrhl1md Beach, Florida one shAre. presinent.

Ana l'unphy, l'li~hland !\each, Florida, one share, v i ce-president. ~ortgage registered and dated December 15,197S. No deta:l.ls but I know that 1t is s1r.ned by J.~1. Nesbitt who, if I am uot mi.stai<E'n,is a lat.ryer in the J)epartment of Justice. So the thihf' is '''~" have, in the case as the han. member for T,,.Poile (t•r. Neary) mentioned,a company here - you can say it is two cJ1fferent companies bt1t in fact :!t is the Sl\me people. MR.DOODY: No, there are two different familes, not the same people at all • ..1:!'--!.. NOLAl-2._:_ T"•o different families. Oh, well I am sorry.

But I would like to have an explanation of some of the things that I have brought up plus the fact how many permanent .1 ohs are we talking about 10503

June 9, 197n Tape 3323 Ill-2 PT' • NOL.Iu'i! : and never mincl some of the crap th;~t we get from some of the people. I 11111 not sup;gesting that these have given you any of that. would l:lke to know as I am sure the minister wouJCI. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. ~jnister of Finance. But I }11'. OOODY: }'r. Chairman, I w:Ul attempt to supply the r.omr>it:tee with as much of the information as I can that has been re~uestec'l. First of all I shou] il mal<e 1t clear as I just TJOinted out thAt the COI!'flany of Northwest J'1.l'lherjes Limited wh:lch is Ray Dunphy of rnrU!lr. js a cl:lfferent company than ThomAs J.

Dunphy of r.urlinp;. noth of them are in the herring business hut,of course,there are a f!:reat many companies in thRf· a'rea ~·ho are in the herr:lnp: business and there are 11 p.;rent many nunphvs in that area. The f:lsh meal plant that was mentioned that was beinp- built in Curling hv ThmN•s nunphy - this is where the hnn. member r>erh11ps is confu!led - Thom11s Dunphy and his company -.,.rere buHc1inp: the fish menl plant in tllf' rurUnp: are11. Tt t~as PRy Dunphy of North"reflt Fillheries Limited which is the company that got the loan to huy the So these are two oifferent companies.

The fish me-'\] plant th11t Has be:lnp startec1 to he built 1n rurlinp. and hacl rPc.eivec1 a permit frnl!' tl'e coundl, the town cnuneil of r.orner Rroo" ~nc1 frnm the provinci~] nep~rtment of F.nvironment beea\ffie there ''"'s nn environment hRZRrcl in the technic-'ll sense - ,,Jhl1t i.t ••as 11tH1 ns the people in the area pointecl out in a pet:lt:lon th11t thev too~- ur, it "'11R a smell fActor.

Tt was nnt haT1T1f11l to health <"ncl Ro thP envj_ronl"Pnt people S<'!1c1 it was not "' pollutant fActor hut anyhofly "'ho has h11c1 any acquaintance ••ith a fish !'leal plant could certain] y verlfy the fact th-'lt it :l.s a most unpJ easant th:lnr, to live nenr and it wafl beinf built near the res:lc1ential area of rurling. "'he to""' councn of Corner Rrook , the company and government rot top:ether <~nt'! asRistec1 thP. company to move the r>l<"nt - nr-:F. were invo]vec1 nlsn - to move the plant do~o.rn near York H:-trbnur in 11 small

.Tune!), 197£. Tape J323 I:ll-3 ~·1'. nnonY: cove down thPre, not :In the community hut it :Is outside the co~unity. MR. WOODRoW: Tsland rove. ~~· __ MOQ}'_: __ Tsland Cove, that :Is it. I cannot remember it. Anyway that particular plant employs about six people, I think, when the f:lsh meal plant :Is in operation. ~y understandinp. is that the operation has been p,oing on pretty constantly except for the 1._Tinter months. It produces quite a bit of herrin!!, meal.

But the people Nho are fa!!!iHar 1-dth that type of operation in the House realize that it :Is not the herring meal plant itself that :Is the important thing it is the fact that it takes the offal and the nonsaleable herrtng, the nonfood product that :Is usually and has been wasted 11ncl turns 1t into A product for which a cash return can be ach:levecl. Tl11!t affects about six or seven herrinp, plants in the area who cleliver the offal and the substandard product to the meal plant. There are about 600 people involved in these herring factories that :lt"e ont there, in the catching. ~'R.

NF.Al1Y: How many involved in the plant? Y1'. J)(lODY: In the plant itself, there are about six people working in the plant. As you know these mechanized meal plants have a couple of guys standin~ under the machine and move the bags after they are - but it is the indirect result of that meal plant which makes it - ~_,_])B:APY: Ho"' much time, for instance, have they worked this year? )"1). DOODY: T understann that they started early in the Spr:l.np this year and they are stilJ operating out there. 1'"' • WOODROW: Ripht,whenever the herri.ng is arottnd. )"1).

TlOOJW: But the important th:!.np: about it - then, of course, there are the truck drivers from t~e various fish plants who brin~ the product to there and the other allied jobs. But the mafn benefit of the plant is to the herr:l .nr, pJ ants who were clmrpinp. that proclnct or tl1at p:arhage 1 a!' :1 t vere, into Curling Harbour beforehand :and creating an environment problem. Now they are able to turn it into a prof:lt by selJ:Inp the offal ancl the substandard product to the meal 10505

June 9, 197fi 'l'ane 3323 Tl'l-4 I"J!. nnmw: plant and so that operation itself indirectly ai~s the herrinr :lnclu~try on the Hest Coast wh:lch h11s heen a mainstay of the economy :In thRt area for a long, lonp 1.rhile, a great number of vears. MR. NEARY: I wilJ he checkine on that next time T f!O out. VJl. DOODY: Yes, okay. You know that is certainly in orcler. I would be delighted to have you check on it next time you are out and if you see anything that you fee] is not in order I wouJ~ he neJ:I~hted if you brought it to our attention. Jill'. NEAP.!.!_ I wU 1 do a little research for vou when I get out therj!.

"'1'. DOODY: The Gander Lumber Company is thf? cot11panv that hl'ls heen 1n operl'!t1on for a ~reat number of years and 1t is one th~t h~s had a ~reat number of d:lff1cuJt:les. 'J'he co!'1pnny ~.oms unrercapi ta] :1 :>:eel, over exten~ed. The neht position- the hon. member for roncept:lon nav Sonth (}'r. Nolan) menttoned $163,0(111. 1 (1o not doubt that thRt is right. T do nC't remember the exaet f:l ~ure offhRnd but I lmm' th11t 1t is a J arge amount of money. That $163,000 could verv l·>elJ he H.

This is why the Newfouncllancl and Labrador T'eve]optllent Corporation would not put <mymore money :In there. '!'hey had put their sh:1re unc'ler the:!r act as much as they cot,ld '[lilt in there. '!'here "'ere se.venty-five people e!TlpJ oyer' by that company :In the "'nods anr in the mill. So we had ~ cho1cP . bPtween r,n11ranteeinr a loan for them in the all'ount of $135,000 or a' Jo"t.dn~ the company to p.o bankrupt resulting in the un~loyment of that seventy-five peonJe. Th11t area cannot afforrl to losP that many iobR.

There was another sawmilJ in the area that was in trouhle at the Rame till'e, the nel·' miJJ., r>ayc Forest Products Mill, ~vhicl1 iR fair]y cloRe to there ann they ~vere in rHficuJties. 1•1e manar;ed throup-h :mother system to p:et the!:' mov1nr ap:ain hut the Gander J.umber ~omp:mv neec'!ed another :l.nfusion of caRh. He p:ul'lranteed them R ]oan. At the same time we also reorgan:l .zed thejr corporate structure, as I re!Tlel!'ber 1t,and p:ot - they neec'!e~ eauipment, thev n"iP not have the proper equ:l.pment for the operation as :It is now.

ThiR has been provic'!ed and the operat:lon appears to be going fairJy ~.>JeJl r1pht no~<'· 10501)

June 9, 1976 Tape 3323 IB- 5 }IR . f)(lOnY : _ As I sav the1 r loan is up-tn - cate and therl.' i!> no problem Iiiith it . But the number of the peof'lP ef!lployecl ther e is about seventy-five . The Botwood L\mher r.ompany - you know the names ot the pr1nc:lpals of all these companies. t read thel!l out before the bon . member fo r Conception Bay South -(Mr . Nolan) did With the exception of the Bell Raven Fi~heries. I mentioned that "r . l<earley 1 was th4.' principal in that company and the l'latter of re~ord that I have here is the same as the hon . memher had.

It .is the share H st filed by the l awyeTs who incorporated the company. And a pew share Jjst presuma bly has not been filed as yet. But it i s a gentleman named Kearley who is tne pTincipa l of that company. That operation buys fish from a p,reat number of inshore fishermen in rhe Relleoram -~ t . Jacou es area.

"'Y impression.,as I rel!'ember ic3 is that it has gjven quite n ntmher of peop1 P in rhat area an incentive to get back out into thP insh ore fjshery , to r.ive them an opportunity co sell their fjsh competitively . ~efo r e they either sold it to the plant in Harbour Breton or they did not sell it at all . By giving 10:107

June 9,1976. Tape 3324 AH-1 MR. DOODY this Mr. Kearley the opportunity to provide the ice making machine and the working capital. in addition to his own savings 1 which he invested there, we have providerl an opportunity for the people in that area to dispose of their catches 1 in many cases closer to home and in many cases at a better nrice. And I think it is one of the better enterprises that was started there. It is diff:! cult to say how many people are cH rectly affected in employment.

The fishery being 1-1hat it is there may be tH·enty, thirty or forty people supplying the plant this week and there may be more or less next ve>Pk, I do no know. Perhaps the hon. member for the area wnuld have more :l.nformation on that. plant and its operation than I have .

The Botwood Lumber Company which is,as I say , a sort of a senior company that has been formed to buy the ungraded and unfinished product of many small mills, many small unprofitable mills , small bench mills, little mills of a family of a father and his son and so on which were not competitiveand which could not sell their products on the market today. I am informed by the people who know the operation out there that they would be directly responsible for the employment of about seventv peopl<'. NR. SMALU.IOOD That would he relatively full-time?

MR. noonY Yes, rlurin~ the logging season,there would be seventy people in the woods, Durin~ the season • when they are not actually cut tin~ wood, then thev are workinp, in the mills and there are somewhat less than that. So that I woulrl suspect that there would be maybe soin.ething lilce thi.rty to forty full-time and about a total of another thirty or so who are seasonal. HR. SMA1.LWOOD Wou1 d the Minister yield for a moment? ~m. DOODY Certainl v1 S:l.r. 1'1R.

SMALLWOOD It now comes bacY to me that there was quite a bit of publicity there some time ago, whether it was six or ten or tl~elve or fifteen months a~o, of that idea of a facility being provided 1050S

.Tune q, Fl7o . Tape 3324 AH-2 MR. SMALT.I-IOOn for BTMl 1 mill,; that did not have planers, could not dress their lumber just put up a rou?:h board, that would handle that product of a numher of mills. No~; there was an announcement at the time. Does the Minister know if this is the only such facility or are there others in the provinceZ Or is there just this one !performing this function, '~hich seems like a very practical and useful function 7 provided the producers of the roup:h lumber get a fair price from the facility that is going to dress it.

And can the minister tell me also whether the facility, the one that does the dressing, btiys the rough lumber, becomes its owner., then dresses and sells it or are they doing custom work, charging so much a thousand feet board measure or some other measure for doing the dressing 1 and then returning the lumber to the small saw mills 7 j ust as for instance, men will go and ·cut saw logs deliver them to a small saw m:f.ll on the halves ; ~~:ettinj?; lumber from half the 1op,s , the remainder of the logs being the price that the mill charp:es for sawin~ the l.mber7 On what line is it done? lffi.

DOODY To answer the first question.first, Mr. Chairman. Hv memory tells me that there is a second operation that I know off. There is one in the fbnavista Ray and the Charleston area where a group of small operators have banded together, thev are under a local leadership to do the same sort of thing. That is more of a co-op type venture in which all the participants equally share and they also , t think 1have had some assistance frmm the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation.

The Botwood Lumber Company, the one that we are discussing here now,Sir,is a privately owned company and the original concept was that they would buy the rough lumber from the small ~tills and plane it themselves and resell it to the trade. Thev a1so 7 of cour.se,would be in the sawing business themselves as well. They 1muld be bnying logs from individuals who ~muld cut them. Whether they have since that time gone into piece work as well, I cannot honestly say. HR. SMALJ ,1J00D Woul<l the Hinister Knm; hm~ many saw mills putting up rough lumher are,in factJdealing with this facility? 10509

June fl, 1976. Tape 3324 AH-3 MR. DOODY At the time that tl-te proposition came in and '~e were <mrking on it in industrial development I think there were somethin!( like ten or twelvP. mills that were listed there. Whether they are all in operation today or whether others have been added or whether it . is .Just- hut there were that many and they were really having a difficult time. There is no doubt about it at all, that the market for that type of ungraded rough lumber today is just about gone except in small isolated,perhaps 1instances when it is not important.

So once again this programm or the guaranteed loan - and one must remember that these are not amounts given by the government, as some han. member mentionen- these are loans that are guaranteed on the credit of the government,thev are a contineentliahility of the government. They are not a gift hy the government. MR. NEARY To promote Ocean Kist 1~as the same thinp:, and Paragon Motel. NR. DOODY l~ell I guess, M:r.

Chairman H we want to go back through history and haul out all the companies that the administration or various administrations or various-back to the time when the first merchant prince arrived here from Devon or wherever- I would suspect that the list would be ~uite impressive. And it is no coincedence 7 Your Honour 1 that most of these loans that go sour or most of the ones that work out are negotiated or acquired bv busin"s" no>nnJ", l.P.canl':r. it is usually business people wh~ are in business. Jt is very,very rarely that you find it another way around.

It is all well and good to say that these people are industrial welfare recipients or that they are whatever else,leeches or what have you. The simple fact of the matter is, the only people who are in business are business people, and the people who are in the medical profession are medical people and sometimes thev coincide and overlap. But very rarely do you ~ind people looking for l~ans or getting involved in business 1Jho are not interested in business. So that part of it makes it all sound very socialistic arid very delightful and all very well.

But it sees not create jobs and it does not help people to 10510

June 8,1'176 . Tape 3324 AH-4 MR. DOQDY get organized and get themselves in a position to create employment_, and this is the purpoAe of this particular act. As I understand, it is to ?rovide assistance for people who are providing .1 ob!l and 1 ob opportunit:l es in the ?rovince. The unfortunate thing about it is that lve do not have enough entrepreneurs in this province. wP. do not have enough management people, we do not have enough people who are trained in management- That is one of the basic problems and a lot of these companies get into trouble.

They get into trouble not because they do not have ideas nor because they do not have energy nor because the capital is not available _, an awful lot of these companieE< gef into trouble simply because they do not have the management exoerti"'f> and the management talent and background and the help. That sort of thing is being helped now,or steps have been taken to try and correct it1 both through NIMAT, the management training institute that has been set up by the Dept of , In:th.tlftrial Development, and by the federal governments case programm in co-operation with the commerce school at the university.

Rut 7 however,that is another story. I do not know that I can provide any other information off hand. The big problem that the Ron. Member for LaPoile had was that the nunphys were getting too much money from government and in actual fact there were two different companies there 1 two different families and they have hath received a guaranteed loan. MR. Nf.ARY MR. DOODY r-!R. WOODROW MR. DOODY One is nunphys Fisheries Li.mited .who are thP. nth.,rQ? One is Raymond , one of them is Raymond.

Ray Dunphy, and Tom Dunphy I have read out the names and so did the hon. member from Conception South. ~IR.NEARY Tom Dunphy owns both companies does he not-:' ~IR. WOOtiRO\.T No, no, no, two· comJlletly different comn11nies. ~. DOODY Will you just wait for a minute,pleaser Humber Cold Storage Limited is Thomas J. Dunphy, Mary Dunphy and Leonard Hawco of r.orner llrook. Northwest Fisheries Limited or Dunphy' 8 fisheries, which is owned by Ada Dunf!hY and Raymond nunphy 1 a i!ifferent family. 1.0511

June 11,1976. Tape 3324 AR-5 ~m . DOODY There are a lot of Dunphys in that area. A lot of herrin~ fishermen in the f~~ily . MR . NliARY You have to have three shareholders in the company. hut there are only tlvo, who are the other shareholders? ~- nooov nun!lhys Fisheries Limited is one. Jom . IIT.ARY Rut who are the owners of Dunphys Fishery? }ffi. DOOOYRaymond Dunphy and Ada Dunphy as I got it here . RR, NEARY mt. DOODY }'R . CARTER That is not so, that is not sc. Well oerhaps it is not . Yes it is .

MR NEARY Ye>u cannot re~i.ster it under the comnAni ""' 10ct. f'lnn ... l>y '" P{sherv coulo ~e o~~ed hy the same two ~eople plus another person. And IJho is th~> other j'lPrson? r!R. DOODY The list of record here is Dunphys Fishery . -~vway you can check that out throup.h vour usua l reliable sources and vou can let me know. It will save me a trip to the . registry because you are down there every day anvway. The hon. member is down there every day. MR. NFARY I was down there this mornin~ for an hour and a half checkin~ on mortrRr.es. MR. J.

CARTER: Why did you not stav there? ~vwav,Sir, ~h~ca~ ATA t"b facts of the ~tter as I see them. If there is any further informAtion that the committee needs I will certainly undertake to provide it for them. ln many cases where these loans are beino- lc~"~ "" to date and where the interest is beinl!. oaid and where there has been no call by government, you kno~, 10512 ,. ,.

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3325 Page 1 - mw Mr. Doody. the information just is not here. We would have to go to the companies and ask them for it, because we have had no reason to go in and investigate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Now, Mr. Chairman, that the minister is in his place, could he give us some approximate idea of the grand total number of more or less full-time jobs created by this roughly $700,000 in seven enterprises? Does it run to twelve, fifteen or twenty average for each of the seven? MR.

DOODY: I would suggest that when you get into an area like the Bell-Haven operation, which I hope that my friend from Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) will talk about, it is pretty difficult to sav how many full-time people there are involved. But I would say that there were certainly 150 jobs involved here and maybe if you would start looking at the effect that that meal plant has had on the herring industry in thP Curlin~ area that the possibility is a great deal larger, because some of the marginal operations there became more viable once that meal plant went into being.

There was also the fact that many of them were in danger of being closed down bv the Department of the Environment, federally, or were being forced to undertake some pretty radical changes and improvements in order to stay in operation. So it is not only the creation of the jobs, a couple of hundred jobs, there is also the probable saving of several hundred other jobs. MR. NEARY: With regard to Curling, would the government still have loaned the money? Would the government be called upon to give this company a loan? MR. DOODY: Oh, yes. MR. NEARY: They will be paid in Curling? MR. DOODY: Yes. ---- MR.

NEARY: So they were going to get - 10513

June 9, 1976 Tape no. 3325 Page 2 - mw MR. DOODY..!.. _ Excuse me, Sir. There is no guaranteed loan here for a fish meal plant at all. MR. NEARY: There is $150,000 for fish meal. MR . DOODY: No, no! MR. WOODROW: It has nothing to do with the fish plant at all, the meal plant. MR. DOODY: The Humber Cold Storage Limited. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, rather than ask the pertinent questions that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has been asking the hon.

Minister of Finance, these types of industries that government is assisting here with "X" thousands of dollars, they are one of the most useful things that possibly could be done by government for the different settlements and the different small companies that are trying to do something for their areas, communities and whatnot. As the Minister of Finance said, "They are entrepreneurs, they are leaders in their communities, they get an idea, or they are forced into it by the fact that their fishermen cannot sell the product that they are catching.

I am referring specific.lly here to Bell-Haven Fisheries which I happen to know something about. The number of jobs involved, like in all fisheries operations, would fluctuate on the seasons, thirty to fifty jobs maybe. They are always short of money, these people in these small communities. The entrepreneurs are trying everything. They do not have enough capital investment. Unfortunately, as the minister pointed out, they do not have enough management experience, and this, of course, gives you lots of headaches. And I certainly do not envy you the policing of these, the auditing.

I am sure it would take qutte a number of auditors and managerial types going around to the different communities taking up the slack or showing them where to take up the slack> but they do serve a very useful purpose. And I nave said in tbis House on several occasions that all of these small industries in the smaller communities are lifesavers. The people 10514

June