LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thuraday, 18 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. CLERK'S ASSISTANT, G. Macklntoeh: The Petition of Les Reveren ds Peres Oblats, Praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to Incorporate Les Reverends Peres Oblats in the Province of Manitoba; Loi modifiant I' Acte pour incorporer Les Reverends Peres Oblats dans la Province de Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. CLERK'S ASSISTANT: The petition for the Niakwa Country Club praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate "Niakwa Country Club." MR. SPEAKER: Presen ting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speak er, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Surface Rights Board of Manitoba for the year ending, April 30th, 1984. I would also like to table the Oil Activity Review for 1984 put out by the Petroleum Branch of the Depar tment of Energy and Mines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ operative Devel opment. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker.

I'd like to table several reports: The Annual Report for Manitoba Co-operative Development, 1983-84; Supplementary Information for Legislative Reviews of the 1985-86 Estimates for the Department of Co­ operative Deve lopment; the Annual Report of the Co­ operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board for 1983- 84; and the Annual Report of the Co-operative Promotion Board for 1983-84. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a statemen t. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a statement to the House on the results of the 1985 Western Premiers' Conference which concluded yest erday in Grande­ Prairie, Alberta. Before the conference got under way, I expressed the hope that Premier Lougheed, Premier Bennett, Premier Devine and I would be able to set out some strong joint positions on at least a few key priorities for western provinces. My hopes were certainly met; in fact, they were exceeded. The conference was one of the most positive and constructive that I have attended in recent years.

The other Premiers and I agreed on eight Important consensus statements, eight communiques which I have just tabled. The communiques spell out our agreements on:

(1) Investment,

(2) Tax Refo rm,

(3) Interest Rates,

(4) Agriculture,

(5) Trans portation,

(6) Federal­ Provincial Co-operation,

(7) Canada-United States Trade,

(8) Multilateral trade negotiations. With the Federal Budget due a week from today, I hope that these communiques will be read very carefully by the Prime Minister and by his colleagues In Ottawa. They contain some very clear messages about western concerns, about western priorities, and they contain some very good, sound advice, I think, on what the Federal Budget should and should not contain. There isn't time now for me to read through the communiques In their entir ety . However, I would like to draw members' atte ntion to several sections which I think are of important significance to our province.

On the future of Churchill, the transpor tation communique re ads: "The Western Premiers reiterated their longstanding support for the Port of Churchill and the federal-provincial plan to modernize and to expand the port. They emphas ized the need for the Federal Government and for its agencies to do all that Is possible to ensure full realization of Churchill's poten tial." I plan to have copies of that communique, Mr.

Speak er, sent to the Federal Ministers who attended the recent meeting on Churchill In Ottawa, and particularly to the Minister that acts for the Canadian Wheat Board. · On agriculture, our joint communique calls on the Federal Government to take action in four priority areas: interest rates, red meat stabllzation, beef import quota levels, and grain stabillzation programs.

I'll read just one excerpt: "The four Western leaders called on the Federal Government to reconsider its recent decision to allow substantial increases in the volume of subsidized beef imports authorized for 1985, noting that the decision has a negative impact on the Canadian economy and on Canadian jobs.

In the view of the Premiers, Canada should not be intimidated by irrational subsidy programs that put surplus European econ omic community beef on the Canadian market." On interest rates, the communique stated: "The Western Premiers reiterated their grave concern that high Interest rates are inflicting serious damage on the Canadian economy . 2035

Thureder, 11 U.r, 1885 Western farmers and small businesses are particularly affected. "Interest rates must be reduced as much as possible to preserve existing jobs, encourage equity Investment to bols ter consumer confidence.

They called on the Federal Government and the Bank of Canada to place a higher priority on lowering interest rates." On investment, our communique included these words: "The Western Premiers reaffirmed their governments' commitment to co-operate more closely in ensuring that the competition for investment among provinces and regions does not result in the mlsallocation and waste of scarce resources.

While recognizing the need to meet intense international competition for investment, the Premiers agreed that it is essential to prevent unproductive 'bidding wars' between provinces for major capital Investments." On federal cutbacks, and federal attempts to offload responsibilities onto the provinces, Mr. Speaker, our communique reads as follows: "Recognizing that Federal and Provincial Governments serve the same taxpayers, the Western Premiers stressed that the Federal Government must not shift its deficit to the provinces through reductions in federal transfer of payments." Now, Mr.

Speaker - and I wish the Leader of the Opposition was present - on the so-called Johnson Report on post-secondary education financing to which the Leader of the Opposition referred to at some length in the House a few weeks ago, our communique states as follows: "They reaffirmed that established program financing is a block-funding arrangement for both health and post-secondary education. They rejected any attempt, as in the Johnson Report recently released by the Federal Government, to focus on artifically defined federal contributions to post-secondary education.

The increasing provincial cost of maintaining health services makes this arbitrary separation even less tenable." I will also table a copy of a letter which my colleague, the Minister of Finance, recently sent to his federal cou nterpart on the subject. I want to advise my colleague that every one of the othe r Premiers complimented us on this letter. I believe their Finance Ministers may now be planning to write similar letters.

Finally, on tax reform, which has also been the subject of debate in this House recently, our communique stated: "The Western Premiers discu ssed Canada's tax system and concluded that a process of reform should begin at once. They agreed that tax reform should have as its objective a lower tax burden. "The Premiers believe that a numb er of broad principles should guide tax reform. The tax reform should be fair, rational, simple and supportive of regional strengths. The Premiers noted the merits of tax measu res introduced in recent Provincial Budge ts across Western Canada.

"The Premiers called for an early commitment by the Government of Canada to the process of tax reform. They directed their Finance Ministers to begin discussions with their provincial and federal counterparts to develop proposals for consideration at the Annual Conference of First Ministers which is to take place in November of this year. Our government has been calling for tax reform now for years, and most recently, Mr. Speaker, at the First Ministers' Conference which took place in February of this year in Regina.

I am also tabling our statement on tax reform from Grande Prairie and now we have a joint statement by all four Western Premiers calling for tax reform. This is a major breakthrough. Again I hope the Federal Government is listening. The agenda topic which has received the greatest media attention was trade. As I said earlier, Premier Lougheed, Premier Bennett, Premier Devine and I issued two communiques on that subject - one on Canada-U.S. trade and one on multi lateral trade negotiations. We also released a detailed joint position paper on Western Canadian trade objectives for the next decade.

The trade statements achieved Manitoba's two main goals; they signal our view that freer trade is desirable for Canada, for Manitoba, and at the same time, they emphasize the great care that must be taken to ensure that workers are protected and that fully adequate adjustment arrangements are put In place. The western position on the Canad a-U.S. common market concept spells out these concerns clea rly, and stresses that all four Western provinces share them. Mr. Speaker, the conference was very positive for Manitoba and for Western Canada.

And, I firmly believe that the Federal Government listens to and acts on the constructive, joint suggestions the other Premiers and I have made over the past two days, the conference will have been of extreme positive benefit for the rest of Canada as well. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my leader, I am pleased to respond to the statement by the Premier and welcome him back to Manitoba. We're glad to hear that he was in good company and obviously enjoyed that meeting. Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, as I just touch on some of the issues raised in a statement by the Premier, there's no question about this party's continuing support for the industrial and agricultural activity related to the Port of Churchill that that major port can continue to play its role in the development of this province. Mr.

Spea ker, I would have perhaps been m'ore impressed when the Premiers also indicated the concern about the importation of meats into Canada and the difficulties that presents to the Canadian agricultu re, if he would have dispatched his Minister of Agriculture to South Dakota, to Nebraska, who have closed their borders to Manitoba hogs - and our hogs are right now creating a considerable problem for our producers - the price is falling, facilities are loading up in St. Boniface and he might ha ve considered doing something about that.

But at least the Prerr.ier acknowledged that it was a problem and I'm glad to see that that's acknowledged in his statement. Mr. Speaker, the other day in this House the Premier was reluctantly forced to acknowledge that there is a world of reality out there, market reality I believe as he called it, and I find it interesting and, again concur 2036

Thursday, 11 May, 1115 with him, that this Premier and the New Democratic Party that he leads, has come to their senses and acknowledged that interest rates are of concern with respect to unemployment. - (Interjection) - with respect to unemployment. What have we heard from them all the time and from their national party? The unemployment problems have to be tackled first and then worry about interest rates and deficit financing and spending, Mr. Speak er.

I am pleased to know that in the good company of Premier Devine and Premier Lougheed and Premier Bennett, this Premier has come to face reality , that it's interest rates that have to be brought under control and then the job opportunities flow from that, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately, while he was in Regina agreeing to that the cred it rating of this province dropped by another point, and that cost will be reflected on all gover nment operations in higher cost, and in higher demands of money, and unfortunately negat ing this attempt to reduce interest rates. Mr.

Speaker, tax reform is an agenda that's on everybody's mind, and we look forward to what the Budget will contain with respect to tax reforms and what, indeed, the Federal Government will do in this regard . We are hopeful, as the Premier is, that some meaningful tax reforms will take place. Mr.

Speaker, it goes without passing though, I can't let the matter pass, that right in this Chamber we have seen some very peculiar demonstrations of how this government deals with the matter of tax reforms in the kind of individual contracts they are prepared to enter into with the so-called rich in order for them to avoid tax payments with special tax-free disturbance allowances, etc. On this subject matter, of course, I think that is of greatest interest that the Premier brings on his return to Manitoba his new -found position on free trade, Mr. Spe aker. I will have more to say about that later on.

Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the gallery where there are 25 students of Grade 11 standing from the Sisler High School under the direction of Mr. Brown. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for lnkster. There are 32 students of Grade 8 standing from the Major Pratt School under the direction of Mr. Fowler. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblln-Russell.

There are 23 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Pritchard School under the direction of Mr. Neufeld. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River East. There are 21 students of Grade 5 standing from the Landmark School under the direction of Mr. Penn er. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Free trade with USA - threatening of jobs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , exactly three months to the day from today, our Premier was quoted in a release, as reported in the Winnipeg Free Press of February 16, 1985, while the Premier attended the Economic Conference in Regina, and I quote: "Premier Howard Pawley warned yesterday that a move to free trade with the United States could throw thousands of Manitobans out of work." My simple question to the Premier Is: what has happened in the last three months to change the Premier's mind? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter . HON. H. PAWLEY: That's why, Mr.

Speaker, I ensured that there was provisi on, that I agree that an automatic movement toward free trade, as an

article of faith, would be blind. But, Mr. Speak er, what Is covered for in regard to the common market type of proposal is that existing jobs would have to be provided for, ensured . The communique, if the honourable member has the communique in front of him, reads: "Where jobs are th reatened by such new trading arrangements, provisions for an ext e nsive period of adjustment will have to be made for particular sectors and for those adversely affected . So, Mr.

Speaker, the adjustment periods would have to be established; they would have to be renewed if, indeed, Manitoba was to give support to any such free trade arrangement. There are advantages that far offset the disadvantages; but, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, their demands req uire sensitivity as far as Manitoba would be concerned, insofar as those industries that would be affected negatively , and transitional agreements which would have to be 7 -10 years potential for renewal, if necessary, in order to cover off those areas where there would be some likelihood of layoffs. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier having agreed to the concept of free trade, will he now agree that to be fair to our employers, to our businesses, that it becomes extremely important that we allow them to compete in a competitive situation, and that such unique impositi ons as a payroll tax that sets Manitoba apart from virtually all other jurisdictions in Canada and the United States only make it that much more difficult for Manitoba busin esses to compete. Would he reco nsider the Imposition of that particular tax in his concept of free trade? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to remind the Honourable Member for Lakeside that Manitoba does not have health insurance premiums as do so many other provinces in this country. I would like to remind the honourable mem ber, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba has a lower sales tax than exists in many other parts of this country. I would also like to point out to the 2037

Thur8d8y, 18 May, 1915 honourable member that the tota l Investment projections for 1985 for investment In the Province of Manitoba exceeds percentage increase in Manitoba, the Increase that is taking place In any other part of this country, and far above the rate of increase projected for Canada as a whole. So, Mr. Speaker, let me point out to the honourable mem ber that Manitoba is doing very very well by way of total investment increase; we're doing very well by way of comparable tax comparisons with that which exists in other provinces in Canada, Mr.

Speaker, and the lowest cost of doing business in pretty well every sector that we can compare with, Insofar as other parts of this country. So, Mr. Speaker, we need not take a doom and gloom attitude that the Honourable Member for Lakeside enjoys undertaking. Mr. Speaker , we can look forward with confidence based up on what Manitoba has achieved, what we're going to achieve in the future by creating investment and jobs for Manitobans In this province. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier is well aware that the Premier of Saskatchewan can indicate to us that their businesses pay no fuel tax; the Premier of Alberta can indicate their businesses and the people pay no sales tax and no fuel tax. In other words, we can list the litany of advantages or disadvanta ges in different regions, but we have some unique ones in the Province of Manitoba that are particularly disruptive to trade. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The purpose of oral question period Is to ask questions and not to make speeches.

If the honourable member has a question would he please pose it? The Honourable Member for Lakeslde. Government intervention in labour negotiations MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and I would like to ask the First Minister, does the Minister condone intervention on the part of government in sensitive labour negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the government, through the auspices of the Labour Board and through the conciliation officers of the Department of Labour , through other means that are intended to by way of The Labour Relations Act in the Province of Manitoba has in fact a responsibility, a duty, an obligation to attempt to minimize a lack of harmony in the workplace leading to strikes. In fact, Mr.

Speak er, it's worked out very very well in the Province of Manitoba because in the last 10 years, in fact in the last several years, Manitoba has had just about the best record insofar as work stoppages of any province in Canada outside of Prince Edward Island. So, Mr. Speaker, we have a record there too, that we can be proud of in the Province of Manitoba in comparison to what is taking place in the rest of this country. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I might ask the First Minister, does the First Minister agree that the government should take sides on labour negotiations? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the government has a responsibility not to take sides In respect to a labour dispute, but to ensure that the government provides the mechanisms and the personnel and the provisions that presently exist for resolving industrial disputes; that they are brought to bear in a manner that Is fair and reasonable to both parties that are together at a collective bargaining table. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I would ask the First Minister, Mr. Speak er, is the Member for Burrows still regarded as a member of the government caucus? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , the Mem ber for Burrows is a member of this l egislature.

He undertakes responsibility as a member of the Legislature, as the Member for Burrows. He does not, in his undertakings, represent government policy In all instances. He has a responsibility as a member of the Legislature to represent his constituents in a way that he may indeed, in his judgment, feel to be the best course of action, but that does not represent government policy. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, does the First Minister agree that the Member for Bu rrows, with NDP letterhead, write to the Tan Jay workers a letter regarding their strike indicating three - (Interjection) - NDP letterhead . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: . . . at which time he says in the last sentence: "You have my full support in whatever measures you feel are necessary," and he has outlined certain things that the workers' rights are, Mr. Speaker.

Does the First Minister agree that the Member for Burrows should be sending that out in government envelopes? Secondly, does he agree that the Member for Burr ows shou l d be sending out government envelopes which have gone through the postage meter of the International Ladies' Garments Union? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The honourable member should not be asking a Minister for his agreement or otherwise, a point which Is a matter of opinion. The honourable member should ask questions seeking information. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speak er, then I would ask if the First Minister agrees that the letter from the Member 2038

Thursday, 18 May, 1985 for Burrows to all Tan Jay workers should go out in government envelopes that have gone through the postage meter of the International Ladies' Garment . Workers Union. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. That is the same ques tion. If the honourable member would wish to rephrase his question to seek information, he should do so. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'll say this.

Does the First Minister allow government envelopes to be used to send out NDP literature, and does he believe that government envelopes should be stamped by the postage meter of the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Of the two question, the second one is hypothetical and seeks an opinion. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the question of the use of members' privileges In avalling themselves to government supply comes up from time to time.

Individual members have been called to answer for the use of stationery and/or postage metering services if they're used for what is deemed to be not appropriate for what they're being used. I think the member's question Is quite in order. The member Is not asking for anything that hasn't been asked before. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. That is not a point of order. If the honourable member asks for an opinion, as he did, that is not in order. If the honourable member wishes to seek information, that would be in order. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Labour if the Member for Burrows had discussions with him before he sent out letters to all Tan Jay workers while there are negotiations going on with Tan Jay? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have and I will table this for the Chamber, because it appears the honourable member Is misrepresented. He grossly Is misrepresented because the honourable member only a few moments ago ind ica ted that government stationery and government envelopes had been utilized. Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Legislative Assembly and Burrows NDP Caucus Room stationery - not government stationery - maybe the honourable member Is proposing that leaders of individual parties in this House censor and edit letters that are forwarded to constituents and others from caucus offices. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, I don't Intend to have any part of that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I did not indicate government stationery. I indicated government envelopes. Mr .

Speaker , I in dica ted government envelopes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Min ister of Labour if the Member for Burrows had discussions . . . HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEY: The honourable member just grossly misrepresented in this House that the Hono urable Member for Burr ows had sent stationery out In government envelopes, Mr. Speaker.

I have tabled a document, a copy of the envelope which indicates it was sent from the Legislative Assembly Caucus Room, not government, Mr. Speaker. The honourable member has grossly misrepresented facts in this Chamber. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Hono urable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Labour if the Member for Burrows had any discussion with him regarding the advisability to send letters to all Tan Jay employees, whether they're in the Member for Burrows' constituency or not - all Tan Jay employees - while there are negotiations going on between the company and the union, which states: "You have my full support In whatever measures you feel are necessary." · HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I tabled a document only a few moments ago that indicated the envelope was Manitoba Legislative Assembly NDP Caucus.

The honourable member grossly misrepresented the facts, Mr. Speaker. I think it's encumbent on the honourable member at least to offer some explanation to this Chamber for his gross misrepresentation of facts. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Hon ourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. The First Minister talks about the . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Hon ourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. 2039

Thunday, 18 May, 1885 MA. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Well, I raise a point of order then, Sir, because the First Minister has made accusations about these envelopes, and I would only say the envelopes are paid for by government. A MEMBER: So are yours. MA. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. MA. F. JOHNSTON: And my envelopes I can use in my constituency, not in general mailing. MA. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. A MEMBER: Who pays for yours? MA. F. JOHNSTON: Not on general mailing. MA. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

A point of order regards a breach of the Rules or of the normal practices of the House, it should not be used for supplying information or for arguing the facts. If the honourable member has a question, would he please pose it. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1 do rise on a point of order.

I believe this whole line of questioning, which we have experienced over the last 10 minutes, reflects on the rights of an Individual private member of this Assembly, and not, Sir, a question related to a request for information from government with respect to government policy. 1 believe, Sir, that if the honourable member - this Is my point of order - has a question regarding the use of privileges provided to private members of this Assembly, either a member of the government party, as a government backbencher, or as a member of the Opposition Caucus, then that question, Sir, is not appropriately directed to a Minister of the Crown but, Sir, is appropriately directed to the Commission which you chair, which Is responsible for ensuring that services and privileges provided to members for the service of their constituents, and communication of information to the people of Manitoba, and other prov isions provided directly by the Legislative Assembly Management Commission, and should be directed to that Commission.

To make that the subject of questions or debate In this Chamb er, Sir, is inappropriate and is an affront to our Rules which provide the questions shall be directed to Ministers in areas for which they have responslblity and not, Sir, reflections on private members. 1 also, Sir, reject any assumption that those services provided to private members are provided by the government, Sir.

They're provided by this Assembly, thr ough the Legislative Assembly Ma nagement Commis sion, at the expense of the tax payers of Manitoba; and that Commission, Sir, has independence from the government, has enforced that independence, and I think all members should respect that, Sir. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order.

The question of the Individual member Is well taken, but the point that my honourable colleague, the Member for Sturgeon Creek, is trying to make bears very heavily on how the particular office of that member was used, and also on the material that was used. it was used, as my colleague is going to point out in a moment, in a way that was Interrupted as direct Intervention In sensitive labour negotiations by a company that has, today, announced its withdrawal from Manitoba of Its head offices under the accusation that the union and this government have conspired together to create a hostile labou r climate, Mr.

Speak er. it's for that reason that the issue is being raised and the colleague from Sturgeon Creek can demonstrate that in a moment, Mr. Speaker; that Is the Issue. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Honourable Opposition House Leader has further compounded the breach of the Rules which I believe is taking place here, Sir. We have a series of questions designed, for whatever purpose and I impute no motives, related to the activities of a private member under his privileges as a mem ber.

Now, Sir, the honourable member purports to jus tify the breach of the Rules on the grounds that there is some sort of conspiracy. Sir, if he Is alleging that private members create government policy that, Sir, Is another whole ball game. But If he has a concern about the behaviour of a member, or the use of a member's privileges, that should be referred to the Legislative Assembly Ma nagement Commission where those privileges are sanctioned and paid for. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Further to the same point, Mr.

Speaker, and it Is very relative to what we're all concerned about - jobs In the Province of Manitoba - and we have a major employer Indicating his withdrawal from Manitoba head offices because he specifically Ind icates- we note that these letters were mailed in envelopes from the Manitoba Legislative Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. When the honourable member rises on a point of order, I expect him to discuss that point of order, not the merits of the case. If the honourable member has something to say on the point of order, would he please do so.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, I believe when an action taken by a member of this Legislature is Interpreted by any one of our citizens as being . a directive of government, or being an intervention of government, and if the wrappings around that message contain such things as government taxpayers-paid envelope material with the Manitoba Legislative Assembly Insignia on it then, particularly In a situation like this,

whereas the employer points out that many of their employees are perhaps not that sophisticated, they take it to be an 2040

Thuraday, 18 May, 1985 intervention on the part of government. Mr. Speaker, I believe that situation makes the point that we're making in order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I remind honourable members that Oral Questions should not connect or have to do with the actions of a private member, but be directed to a member of the government and Involve an area which Is within the admin istrative responsibility of that particular Minis ter. If the honourable member has a question concerning that, would he pose it. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the member, the Minister of Labour, as I did previously, did the Member from Burrows have any discussion with the Min ister of labour before he sent a letter to all Tan Jay employees while negotiations between the company and the union were proceeding? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I've seen a copy of the letter and, as the First Min ister has pointed out, it was a letter sent by one of my colleagues, a member of the caucus, on caucus stationery, his stationery, and utilizing his privileges as a member of the legislature.

I have read the letter and I think it's a very responsible letter and I would like to read it into the record. lt reads as follows: "Dear Tan Jay Worker: "I would like to take this opportunity to wish you success in your negotiations with Tan Jay. Your union has contacted me about the labour law on strikes In Manitoba. Striking is not a preferable way to obtain a fair contract, but sometimes it is the only way. In case you have to resort to strike action, I'd like to remind you of some important provisions of Manitoba laws: "1. You have a legal right to go on strike. "2.

You cannot be fired for going on a legal strike. "3. If the company sends your work to other factories where there is a union those workers can refuse to do that work without being fired. "In Manitoba, we have a proud history of good labour relations and justice for workers. We respect a worker's rights to this kind of fair treatment. "I wish you the best of luck In getting a contract with Tan Jay. You have my full support In whatever measures you feel are necessary. "Yours truly, "Conrad Santos, MLA for Burrows." SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I did not write the letter. I did not advise on the composition of the letter, but I think that was a fair representation of the law of 2041 Mani toba and very Instructive to constituents who are workers. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Eimwood. MR. A. DOERN: Will the Attorney-General, concerning the comments of the . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Burrows on a point of order. MR. C. SANTOS: Mr. Speaker, I move, on a point of personal privilege. A MEMBER: Do you have a motion? MR. C. SANTOS: Yes.

I move, seconded by the Member for lnkster, that the Member for Sturgeon Creek . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I wonder if the honourable member would wish to postpone his motion until the end of Oral Question period so as not to take up the time of the House. Manitoba - bilingual province MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General concerning the remarks of the Franco-Manltoban Society president who said that she was flabbergasted at what a push-over the Attorney­ General was when it came to the SFM's goal of making Manitoba officially bilingual. I would like to ask him whether he threw In official bilingualism as a bonus when he capitulated to the SFM's demands for increased services in early 1982? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A.

PENNER: The member is asking me to comment on a matter that is before the courts and I'll go no further than I went already namely, and the Premier can answer further, that at a meeting with the Premier and other members of government on January 11, 1982 - at which I was, in fact, not present - the SFM presented a number of proposals dealing with French language services and presented Its proposal for the first time on constitutional matters. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I then ask the Attorney­ General or the Premier that when Mr s.

Proteau mentioned that official bilingualism was a dream, a dream for some and a nightmare for others, did the government . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. lt has been pointed out that this concerns a matter which is before the courts. I believe the honourable member knows that and perhaps should choose his words with care.

ThUreday, 18 May, 1985 The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I think I am. I think the court case is concerning the payment of fees and I am not interested In that aspect. I'm interested In whether or not, in the negotiations of three years ago, the government instantly capitula ted or whether the government had any discussions?

And I would simply ask the Attorney-General or the Premier when the suggestion was made in negotiations about official bilingualism, did the government consider any of Its negative aspects or did the government take that as an order and simply collapse Instantly and proceed to draft legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, not only is this matter before one court, the Court of Queen's Bench in the Province of Manitoba, but also we have not received a decision from the Supreme Court of Canada. This question is highly Improper on both counts, Mr. Speaker. MR. R.

DOERN: On the point of order, the Supreme Court has been considering this question, a general question, for 11 months. There is also a court case across the street concerning the payment of fees; there is a discussion in the media; there is discussion in the street. I don't believe that any question of any kind that refers or is concerned with bilingualism Is out of order. There are certain questions that are out of order; but I do not believe that this Is one of them, Mr. Speaker, and I intend to ask another question if I may. MR. SPEAKER: I do not believe that was a point of order.

The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the First Minister then. In the bargaining that took place with the SFM In 1982, did the government simply take Its marching orders from that organization, or did it consider the history and the feelings and the thinking of some 90 percent of the people of this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I do believe there should not be questions on a matter which is before two courts of law. Fall rye and winter wheat - estimated losses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have an answer to a question posed to my colleague on the 14th of May by the Member for Arthur concerning crop insurance, Sir, and losses to fall rye and winter wheat. Mr. Speaker, the Crop Insurance Corporation reports that losses of fall rye and winter wheat are estimated at 230,000 acres on rye, which is approximately 10 percent loss due to winterkill. Losses are estimated somewhere in the neighbourhood of $350,000.00. This year, Sir, there's been a major increase in the planting of winter wheat, over and above previous years.

We estimate about 100,000 acres of winter wheat planted and a loss of about 20 percent of that crop lost. Another question that was posed as to when winter wheat will be covered through crop insurance, I wish to advise the honourable members that we have a proposal Into Ottawa at the present time and hopefully we can reach an agreement In time to have the program available for sale to Manitoba farmers by August 1st of this year. This timing is necessary, of course, because as with fall rye, farmers will have to signify their intention to insure winter wheat prior to August 31st.

The honourable member knows and I mentioned earlier, we had only 22,000 acres ln'83 and 33,000 acres of winter wheat ln'84 and it's mushroomed to 100,000 acres, and we are at the present time as well, collecting information on the two major hazards to winter wheat and that is winterkill and rust and we're doing testing in those areas. Mr. Speaker, as well, I was pleased to hear the Honourable Member for Lakeslde now make a deathbed repentance to their position on Interest rates today and it was very nice to hear it today, Sir. Tan Jay President's letter to MLA MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I would ask the First Minister when he received a copy of a letter that was sent to Mr. Conrad Santos, ML A for Burrows, by Mr. M.A. Batte, President of Tan Jay, outlining the concerns they had regarding a letter sent by the Member for Burrows, and what did the First Minister do when he realized Tan Jay had some concerns about the letter? Did he have any discussions with him? And thirdly, Sir, did he ask the Member for Burrows why - accord ing to the letter from Mr.

Batte - we also note that at least some of the envelopes carry the postage meter num bers of the International Ladles Garment Workers' Union, does he agree that the Member for Burrows should be working with the Union while negotiations are taking place with Tan Jay? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, again the honourable member seems to be anxious to cast an aspersion upon a member of this House insofar as that member's dealings with constituents and particularly, workers that are lowly paid in this city, workers that are mainly unskilled, that are attempting through the lawful means of collective bargaining to ensure that they obtain a settlement that Is reasonable to both employer and 1 o employee. Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to the honourable member that he permit the employer and the employees to resolve this matter through the collective bargaining process, rather than attempt to obtain headlines, Mr. Speaker, at the expense of the workers, the workers In the plant that are involved. 2042

Thur.day, 18 May, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Tan Jay, discussions with MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Indu stry and Technology. Has he had any discussions with Tan Jay since their announcement to move their head office to Ontario? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the announcement that was made in the newspaper and on the radio this morning, I had no prior kn owledge of that announcement from any representatives of the company.

I have, in the past, met with the company, as I have with other textile and clothing manufacturers In the province, to discuss ongoing issues regarding the industry in the Province of Manitoba. The building that Tan Jay is alleged to be moving into was purchased and announced back In June of 1982 as their national sales headquarters for Canada. I regret that the company did not approach the government, however, I have written to the chairman of Tan Jay Indicating that I would like to meet with him to discuss his statements.

The usual practice, when companies have announced plans with respect to their activities in the Province of Manitoba, is that they have discussed that with the government prior to making any public announcements. Winnipeg Jets - future uncertain MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minis ter, and it's with respect to news reports that the future of the Winnipeg Jets In the City of Winnipeg is uncertain, and I heard the Mini ster of Sport express concerns on radio broadcasts this morning.

Could the Premier indicate to the House whether, indeed, the future of the Winnipeg Jets In the City of Winnipeg is uncertain? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I must acknowledge 1 had not heard that report, though I just arrived this morning from Alberta as the honourable member knows. I'll be certainly looking into the concern that · the honourable member has raised to see if there is any basis for the radio report that he's made reference to. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased that the First Minister will undertake to look into the matter, and advise the House if there is anything that the government could do. I would like to, Mr. Speaker, provide him with a copy of a bill that was intr oduced in the Ho use of Representatives in Congress in the United States, which is called a Sports Relocation Act: ". . . to establish certain limitations relating to the movement of professional sports franchises . . .

"and deals on the basis of the principle that, despite the close association with, and support from people in the territories in which they presently play, teams from time to time may be lured to move to new territories without considering any but purely financial reasons. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G.

MERCIER: I simply ask the First Minister whether he would give that bill some consideration with the Attorney-General and the constitutionality of such a bill, provincially and federally, in order to stop, If necessary, the unnecessary move simply for purely financial reasons of a professional sports franchise in the Province of Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether the honourable member Is recommending this bill to me, but I thank the honourable member for providing me with a copy of this bill.

Certainly I want to assure the honourable member that I will peruse same, the clauses and provisions that are contained therein. Mr. Speaker, I don't know of the reports that the honourable member is referring to. I trust that the reports are not true, particularly after the excellent season that the Jets had. I think the Jets did extremely well this year. Mr. Speaker, I hope that next year the Jets will do as well as the Bombers did during this past season. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would you pleese call Bill No. 12 for Introduction on Second Reading? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, my apologies, I meant Bill No. 14. Bill No. 12 has already been Introduced. SECOND READING BILL 14 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE COMMUNIT Y CHILD DAY CARE STANDARDS ACT HON. M. SMITH presented Bill No. 14,

An Act to amend The Community Child Day Care Standards Act; Lol modifiant la lol sur les garderles d'enfants, for Second Reading. MOTION preHnted. 2043

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, The Community Child Day Care Standards Act was proclaimed in October, 1983. In the 19 months since that time, Manitoba has continued to demonstrate that it provides the best day care program in Canada. Our legislation, and the accompanying regulations, are the most thorough and comprehensive in the country and, therefore, provide for the highest quality care for our young children. Manitoba also provides more day care spaces and funding per capita than any other province.

Therefore, as I table these proposed amendments to The Community Child Day Care Standards Act, I do so with the confidence that these adjustments will further emphasize our support for our young children. The refinements to the legislation also reinforce our belief that positive child care experiences early in life can enhance children's later functioning as adults and contributing members of our society. Both the Child Day Care Bra nch of my own department and the day care community agreed that changes were needed to clarify some sections of the act and afford more flexibility in administration.

In addition, Crown counsel recommended a number of changes to make the act more effective. Over the past 19 months, we've found that the definition of the various types of day care facilities in the act required simplification. The detailed

definitions will, therefore, be removed from the act and included In revised regulations. Honourable members will see that in Bill 14 a short, simple definition of day care is given, and only two types of day care facilities, day care centres and day care homes, are defined. The second main reason for introducing these amendments concerns the exemptions to the act. The present exemption of all private schools has caused some confusion. The changes, seen in

Section 2 of this bill, will enable regulations to distinguish clearly between pre-school day care and private schools. Under new regulations, a provincially-funded private school will continue to be exempt from the provisions of the act, but a private school that offers a pre-school day care will have to obtain a day care licence for its pre-school services. lt should be stressed, Mr. Speake r, that my department does not intend, through Bill 14, to enter the field of education. The bill gives my department no powers to licence private schools for their school operations.

We believe that the bill will prevent an overlapping between the Child Day Care Branch and the normal operations of public and private schools and Manitoba education. Amendments to Sections 5 and 35 will give the director of Child Day Care the power to enter a day care centre and gather necessary information to evaluate whether day care is being provided. The director and Day Care Branch staff will be able to Investigate day care conditions in both licensed facilities and premises believed to be providing day care.

The director will, where necessary, be able to apply to the courts for an injunction in extreme situations. These powers are necessary to ensure the safety and well-being of children in day care and are the normal powers needed for the admin istration of a statute of this nature. Several amendments are being proposed for licensing procedures, requirements and appeals. A change to

Section 15 will allow an Interim licence to be refused In situations that are hazardous and detrimental to children. Thus, a day care centre that has appealed the suspension of its licence will not have an automatic right to an Interim licence during the appeal process if it is an unsafe place for children. An amendment to

Section 13 will require a day care centre or home to di splay Its licensing order, as well as its licence for the information of parents. Under a change to

Section 16, there will be more flexibility in issuing provisional licences to day care centres pending . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I would remind the Honourable Minister that Second Reading Is a debate in principle. lt has been the practice of the House not to refer to individual sections at this stage. Perhaps the honourable member would like to rephrase her remarks? The Honourable Mini ster of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I apologize for that oversight.

There will be no more flexibility In issuing provisional licences to day care centres pending fulfillment of licensing requirements. The current act does now specify that more than one consecutive provisional licence may be issued to a day care centre or home. Although the act now provides for appointment of a provisional admin istrator for a day care centre, it does not define that official's powers. Another amendment specifies the admin istrator's responsibilities and powers. The bill provides for methods and procedures for hearing qualification appeals from day care staff.

The current act is silent on this matter. Honourable members will be glad to know, Mr. Speaker, that the Day Care Staff Qualifications Review Committee, appointed under the Act, was consulted and provided recommendations on a change to cover this point. Another change will allow new regulations to be drawn up to cover matters to be deleted from the body of the act. Chief among these, Mr. Speaker, are types of day care centres and homes; licensing of private home day care and exempting schools from licensing. The regulations will have the same effect as the sec tions of the act they will replace, Mr.

Speaker, and will clarify but not expand or reduce the areas In which the act is affected . This bill will strengthen the licensing procedures required under The Community Child Day Care Standards Act. The primary objective of the amendments presented today is to allow the Child Day Care Office to intervene promptly should a situation develop in which there is a reasonable concern that children may be endangered. These changes once more confirm our government's commitment to high-qua lity day care. However, Mr.

Speaker, I must stress that governme.tt alone can never guarantee qualit y day care and this requires the active participation of parents, providers and the community in partnership with government. For this reason, Mr. Speaker, our government will 2044

Thursday, 16 May, 1985 continue to look towards parent involvement and ownership of day cares through parent-run co-ops, as the primary method of provi ding day care and of ensuring high-quality day care as the support for children and families. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for La Verendrye, that the debate be adjourned. MOnON preeented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOT ION preeented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Co-operative Development.

CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoe: Committee, come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Co-operative Development. As is customary, we shall begin with the opening statement from the Mini ster responsible for this department. Mr. Minister. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you. lt is indeed an honour to be able to begin this year's legislative review of the activities of the Department of Co-operative Development by indicating that the past year has been a banner year for the co-operative movement in Manitoba. The co-operative sector is indeed on the move.

More new co-operatives were incorporated In the past fiscal year than has been the case since records were kept by the central registry of the department. The co-operative model is being used to provide services to hundreds of thousands of Manitobans in hundreds of communities from Churchill to Emerson; South Indian Lake to Great Falls. Co-ops offer many new opportunities for Manitobans. For example, most of us take running water for granted but for many Manitobans living in smaller communi ties a community water system has been nothing more than a far distant dream.

At least that was the case until just a couple of years ago. Residents of a number of communi ties In Manitoba now have · running water because they have banded together to form utility co-ops in their own community. They no longer have to rely upon inconvenient and costly trucking of water because their new co-operative is providing that service to them. Utility co-ops are a classic example of how co­ operatives can bring new services to Manltobans while improving our provincial infrastructure at the same time.

Hundr eds of families are now enjoying the benefits of running water because of the new utility co-ops that have been established in the past year. But these new co-ops are only a part of the historic expansion of the co-operative movement that Manitoba witnessed last year. Co-ops can also play an imp ortant role in the economic life of ordinary Manitobans. Thousands of Manitobans are directly employed by co-operative enterprises in full-time permanent jobs but co-ops also provide other economic opportunities.

Every time a housing co-op is built construction workers are employed and managers and maintenance workers have another opportunity for permanent work once the construction is completed. Jobs are created every time a retail or service co­ op opens its doors. Co-ops also enable employment in more indirect ways. More single parents than ever before can go to work in the morning confident that their children are being well taken care off in their own day care co-op. Just a few weeks ago I had the privilege to participate in the official opening of a new day care co-op in South Indian Lake.

There were dozens of proud parents, staff and children present as the official ribbon was cut. Their pride was well placed. They and the entire community had worked long hard hours for a num ber of months to bring this new service to their community. Their success will not only bring benefits to themselves as members of their co-op but will also serve as an example for other remote communities that might wish to follow their lead. Again, this extension of the co-op model to communities like South Indian Lake is a historic occasion for Manitoba and may well be unique in all of Canada.

We all recognize and appr eciate the fact that Manitobans deserve decent affordable housing. Housing co-operatives provide those accommodations to thousands of Manitobans and their families. More than that, they allow their members to play a prominent role In designing and controlling their own housing conditions through a democratic and co-operative structure. Last year, the Provincial Government Initiated a new $3.5 million Co-operative Homestart Program as a way to encourage and support the development of more co-op housing throughout the province. Manitobans recognize the value of that co-op housing.

Last year, co-operative housing starts In Manitoba on a per capita basis were the best In the entire country. As a matter of fact I will have the pleasure of attending a cheque presentation ceremony In a few hours over the supper hour as we officially mark the start of the construction of the first continuing housing co-operative in the downtown area of Winnipeg. 2045

Once again, Manitobans should be proud of the leadersh ip role they are playing In developing and promoting the use of co-operatives to serve the needs of people and to provide services to communities. I have listed but a few specific activities of the co­ operative movement in Manitoba over the past year. There are many more. Last year, there were 31 newly incorporated co­ operatives. They are providing economic and social benefits along with hundr eds of other existing co­ operatives. They are serving the agricultural community through processing and marketing co-ops.

They are serving ordinary Manitobans thr ough retai l, community service and communication. They are Indeed a strong third force in our economy and they are growing at unprecedented rates. The financial co-operatives, the credit unions and caisses populaires, have also enjoyed a strengthened system during the past year. In 1984, the credit union system enjoyed one of its most successful years ever with a growth of $17 0 million In assets, and net earnings of $8 million.

In many instances these co-operative institutions outperformed the general banking Industry in many areas of their activities. lt is also important to remember that credit unions and caisses populalres employ approximately 1,2 00 Manitobans and hold over $2 billion in assets in this province. Add to those figures the assets of other co­ operatives equalling $625 millio n and the 3, 800 Manitobans who are directly employed by nearly 300 co-ops, and the major signifi cance of the co-op movement in the Manitoba economy soon becomes apparent.

Nearly a quarter-o f-a-million Manltobans are showing their faith and commitment to the co-op movement through their membership In their own Individual co­ operatives. At the same time nearly 288,000 members of credit unions and calsses populaires are adding to the strength of the entire system through their participation in nearly 130 credit unions and caisses. That Is not to say that the co-operative sector Is immune to the same financial forces as are all services and economic organizations. We are all aware that significant problems have existed in the past.

We are also all aware that in specific instances and under certain circumstances there are still outstanding situations that require further work and resol ution. This government, and the department are committed to assisting those co-ops, credit unions and caisses populalres work through difficult circumstances so that their members' interests are addressed and protect ed. Of course, departmental staff continue to provide their normal regulatory and developmental services to co­ ops and co-operators across the province.

In addition to that ongoing work there are several new major thrusts that are either recently under way or anticipated in the near future that are designed to compliment that renewed growth in the co-operative sector. Firstly, the government is establishing a northern office of Co-operative Deve lopment so that Northerners will have dir ect access to the services of the department for co-operative related activities. We believe that northern co-operatives have proven viability and records of success.

For example, the Gas Bar Co-op in Thompson is serving over 2,0 00 members by providing rea sonably priced gasoline to its members. The fishing co-ops in Northern Manitoba are among the most successful in the country. They allow fishermen control over their own operations through ef ficient economic democratically controlled organizations. Retail co-ops in many northern communities serve an ever- increasing membership. Deve lopmental work is now under way on at least one housing co-operative in the North.

The new northern office, which will be located in Thompson and will be opened early this summe r, will work with these existing co-ops to consolidate and expand their activities. More Importantly, this government believes that there is great potential for new co-ops in the North as hydro construction commences. This new office will serve that need as well. The government is also continuing its successful new "Co-operative Homestart " Program. As I Indicated earlier, the $3.5 million program was originally announced last year.

To date, 10 housing co­ operative projects have received start-up assistance unde r this project. These projects represent approximately 134 uni ts of renovated accommodations and 195 units of new construc tion. If all of these were to go ahead they would represent a $16 millio n investment In our provincial housing stock. This new economic activity takes place at a time when accommodations are needed; these housing co-ops are serving many of those needs. The government is also about to embark upon another major new program to encourage the devel opment of empl oyment co-operatives.

Also known as worker co-ops, these co-operative organizations have proven successful In many different countries and Canadian provinces. Employment co-operatives hold significant potential for many Manitoba communities and the provincial economy in general. The advantages of these co-ops in specific areas can be quite numerous. Firstly, they increase Canadian ownership because the workers thems elves are the owners. They allow for more democratic control of specific economic activities through a co-operative ownership structure.

They are usually more stable than other businesses because decisions about their establishment and operation are entirely community based and not predicated upon corporate decisions of head offices that may be based thousands of miles away and, consequent ly, unaware of, and detached from, community concerns. As well, employment co-operatives can often operate more efficiently with less cost because the employees are the owners and have a much more dir ect interest in the everyday operations of the co-op.

So we believe that employment co-operatives can play a much larger role in our economy by providing new eco nomic enterprises, Increasing Canadian owner ship, crea ting new long-term jobs, strengt hening local economies and meeting community needs. Over the past year, we have been discussing how employment co-operatives can expand our economy with co-operators, business owners, labour leaders and profe ssionals. We have all agreed that employment co­ operatives do hold potential for Manitoba.

We have reviewed many ways by which their development could be encou raged and supported by the gover nment, by other interested parties, and by the co-operative sector. As a result of those discussions, and our review of how worker co-ops have operated successfully In other 2046

Thuradey, 18 May, 1985 areas, we are now finalizing program details and will be announcing a major new government initiative on employment co-ops in Manitoba within the very near future. Program details will be available at that time. There is one other major Initiative under way that I want to mention at this time, and that is the development of amendments to the existing legi slation govern ing the credit unions and caisses populaires. This legislation was first discussed as part of the 1982 1oan agreement between the Pro vincial Government and the credit union and caisses populaires systems.

At that time, the Provincial Government lent the two systems $29.5 million as part of an overall co-ordinated strategy to strengthen the caisses populaires and credit union system. A number of operational improvments, such as the Examination Program, the Perfo rmance Improvement Programs, and the strengthening of the Central, Le Federat ion, the Stabilization Fund and Le Fonds de securite were immed iately implemented and they have produced positive results. At the same time, representatives of those same parties sat down to review possible legislative changes. Those discussions continued over a number of months.

Last fall, a discussion paper on possible changes was circulated by the government to the credit union and caisse populaires systems and other interested parties for their review and comments. Since that time, many discussions have been ongoing at many different levels of the system during which the general concepts and areas of possible amendments have been fully considered and developed. Those discussions are nearing finalization as more . and more areas of consensus are identified and confirmed. lt is entirely possible that th is legislation could be ready for Introduction in the present Sessi on.

So it looks to be a very good year for the co-operative sector In Ma nitoba. The momentum is toward uprecedented growth, through both consolidation of existing activities and expansion into new ares of co­ operation. The Government of Manitoba and the Department of Co-operative Development stand poised to encourage and support that strong third force in our economy -Manitoba's co-ops, credit unions and caisses populaires. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Chair now calls upon the main opposition critic to give his reply if he so desires. The Member for Roblin-Russell. MA. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the Honourable Minister for his statement, too, as we begin the examination of the Estimates of the Department of Co-operative Devel opment. I am rather unhappy at the fact that we just get the Annual Report of the Co-op Loans Board, and the Guarantee Board, and the Co-op Promotion Board today at 2 o'clock as we are beginning the examination of the Estimates because they were for the year end, March 31, 1984. I think maybe another year the Minister could get them in our hands a little sooner so that we could do justice to the figures that are in those reports. Mr.

Chairman, the credit union movement in the past two years has boomed from the sad state of affairs that it was in at that particular time. I guess the assets have grown to close to 15 percent and now exceed $1. 6 billion, is the figures I read, for the first nine months of'84, and a profit of some $6.2 million for the same period. I understand the credit unions and the caisses populaires saw their mortage assets grow by some $2.4 billion in the last year.

So, basically, our credit unions, generally speaking, have done well and they have finally got their act in place and recognize that they are not banks and are following the guidelines that they were intended to follow In the days of the credit union movement starting. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the retail co-ops In our province who are facing extremely hard times in many cases.

This government and this committee, I think we have our work cut out for us to see if we can't come up with ways and means to try and help the retail co-ops, especial ly, that are facing some really difficult situations as we sit here this afternoon, Mr. Chairman. The other thing maybe that I would like to put on the record Is regarding the legislation that's forthcoming from the Minister's office, that a lot of the credit unions that I'm talking to are wonde ring if most of the proposals are necessary and wonder if we're being counter­ productive by this form of legislation at this time.

They naturally feel that their aU1onomy is esse ntial to their survival In the ir present structure, but some credit unions, at least, are worried that they wer en't founded for the principles of sup"porting a bureaucracy to operate them. So I hope that when the legislation comes that we handle it with skill because incre ased regulations and controls imposed by bureaucracy can only serve to impair the abilities of our cred it uni ons and co-ops to function.

So, with those few remarks, we wish them well for the year ahead and I'm sure, as we go through these spending Estimates of the Minister, we'll come up with a lot of things that will certai n further the strength of our credit unions and our co-operatives In this province. MA. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Critic. At this point in time, the Chair invites the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. · De ferring the Minister's Salary as the last Item, we shall start by considering Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Adminis tration and Financ e, Executive Support: Salaries; 1.(bX2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Roblin-Russell. MA. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, just so it is clear , it's my understanding of the conversat ion with the Minister that it would just take a broad quest ion through the whole series of figures that are before us, and just pass it all when the question and answers are completed. HON. J. COWAN: Ye s, first, perhaps, I should introduce the staff that are going to be with us this after noon, so that we can put some names to faces for those of you who don't know most of them.

Most of them are well-known to you. We have no Deputy Minister at the present time and we're in the process of recru iting for 2047

Thuraclay, 18 ... , 1185 one; the previous deputy having gone to Government Services in the role as Deputy Minister there. Greg Thomson, many of you know, Ron Pozernick, Vie Hryshko and Ted Breuer will be here this afternoon to help me answer those technical and detailed questions that you may wish Information on. As well, I would like to indicate that I'm In the hands of the committee. As the opposition critic indicated, we want to go through it generally and then just pass the Items at the end. I'm certainly amenable to that.

Whatever he believes to be the most appropriate way to carry on the bus iness before us is certainly acceptable to me. The purpose here, of course, is to have a good discussion, share some information and perhaps even talk about some philosophical issues that are important to all of us and maybe even every once In a while let politics enter Into it. I think we could probably best do that by having a free-flowing discussion In exchange of Ideas and comments. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt has been the policy and practice of this committee that the Item 1.(b)

(1) Executive Support and Salaries, and 1.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures is the first Item where broad policy Issues and policy differences can be aired with respect to the operation of the department. That's a very broad opening item, and then we can go on item-by-Item. The Member for Roblin-Russell. MA. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, may I ask how many active co-ops there are In the province today. HON. J. COWAN: There are 292 registered co-ops. That does not mean that they are all active at the present time, but they are currently on the books.

As well there are the financial co-operative Institutions, the credit unions and the calsses populaires, and there's 132 in total. MR. W McKENZIE: 132 credit unions and caisses populaires? HON. J. COWAN: That's correct. Just as a matter for clarification, that's not Including the branches of the credit unions and caisses populaires. MR. W. McKENZIE: I wonder, can the Minister give me an idea of the membership In the co-ops and the credit unions? HON. J. COWAN: We are using a figure roughly a total membership as of December 31, 1983, of 221 ,985.

I am certain you can appreciate while we give an exact num ber, that's really an approximate figure. I have used the figures generally that a quarter-of­ a-million members of the co-ops in Manitoba and about 288,000 In credit unions - I'm sorry, I am corrected on that now. The latest figures are 31 7,950 for credit unions and caisses populaires both. lt's about 288 for the credit unions themselves. MR. W. McKENZIE: Could I ask the Minister, the gas spill in the Town of Neepawa, Federated Co-op paid some $60,000 to cover the costs that were incurred by the town.

I think the overall bill as was related to me was some $90,000.00. Of the $30,000 that Is still owing, I wonder if the Minister can give me any advice as to how they are going to resolve that. HON. J. COWAN: I think those claims are being dealt with directly by the Insurance agent or Ind ustry In respect to the spills for Neepawa. So I guess the best advice would be to work through that process.

If at the end of the discussions, and we all know those discussions sometimes take longer periods than other times, but at the end of those discussions or when it's felt that an Im passe has been met, then we may want to take a look at the situation. But to my knowledge those discussions are still ongoing. MR. W. McKENZIE: Are there other gasoline outlets in the province? I think there was one at Portage as well. Is the co-op concentrating on checking these storage tanks?

I know some of them are in the ground, I suppose 10 or more years, and I'm wondering If there Is, or is that done by another department maybe of government? HON. J. COWAN: I am recalling back to my earlier portfolio as Minister responsible for the Environment. At that time we were talking about regulations and, as a matter of fact, I think when the Member for Roblin­ Russell was in government, they were also talking about regulations dealing with that. There are certain procedures that are in pla ce generally. The co-ops do check the levels, as does any other gasoline storage and purchasing and selling facility.

MR. W. McKENZIE: How many of the credit unions now are computerized? HON. J. COWAN: I'm Informed that 31 credit unions themselves are computerized and 15 calsses populaires. MR. W McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister how many amalgamations took place In the last year? HON. J. COWAN: There were no amalgamations that took place In the period under review by this committee. That's not to say that there haven't been discussions and there may be amalgamations in the future. But for that specific period since we last met and discussed these items, there have been none. MR.

W McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister, were there any mergers? HON. J. COWAN: No, there have been no mergers, although again there are probably some discussions of which I'm certain the Member for Roblin-Russell is aware from time to time as to possible mergers. But none have taken place In that period of time. I add the caveat, because I don't want the impression to be left that, In fact, there will no longer be any need for amalgamations or mergers, but just that there haven 't been any in a specific period of time. MR. W McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, the inspection audits that we discussed last year, I believe there were some 2048

Thur.day, 18 May, 1985 15 that were completed. Can the Minister give me an idea of how many were completed this past year? HON. J. COWAN: There were 22 exami nations completed by the examination

section last year for 1984-85. We're anticipating a slight increase in those numb ers for the upcomlng year. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman. how many of our credit unions and caisses populaires are In a deficit position? HON. J. COWAN: I understand that 31 credit unions and five caisses populaires are currently in a deficit position. That figure is much similar to what it was the last time we presented a figure, although I think there have been some changes in the actual credit unions and caisses populalres that are under supervision. a very minor change.

So those figures are reflective of the most recent circumstances. MR. W. McKENZIE: Can the Minister advise how many co-ops in the province are operating in a deficit position over the past year? HON. J. COWAN: No. we can't provide that information, as we don't collect it. Generally, I think we can say that, like any other business enterprise, co-ops fluctuate in respect to their economic viability.

We're impressed with the general level of activity and viability, but that's not to say that there aren't specific circumstances where a co-op may not be in as healthy a position as it was in a previous year and others are probably in a more healthy position. To correct the record , the information is collected as part of the regulations, but it's not released pub licly as it's felt to be privileged Information between the co­ op and the department. lt's for the purposes to be used by the department.

I can certainly address any specifics that the member may wish to question by asking that particular co-op to contact the member directly. If they would want to give the information out In that way that would be the appropriate procedure to follow. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday, under Northern Affairs, we got into a discussion with respect to a wild rice co-op at The Pas. Did the Minister say this was just opened for business In 1984? HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, I had promised to get the Information back to the Member for Swan River during today's Estimates. lt is my understanding that the project Is now in the Initial stages of development. As I indicated earlier, the Member for The Pas and I had visited and consulted with the individuals who would be the proponents of the co-op some time ago. A presentation was made by departmental staff on November 4, 1984 on the possibility of organizing as a marketing co-operative. We're informed now that they have taken that Information from that presentation and a study Into wild rice potential is being conducted.

And following its completion they, as members themselves, will make a decision as to whether or not they want to incorporate. I might add that this co-op structure has been under discussion in that area since the fall of 1983 and we're pleased that they are reviewing a possible co-operative structure as a way of providing a marketing service and a producing service for wild rice. it is an area that is of great potential in not only Northern Manitoba but many parts of Manitoba. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Does the co-op package and market this product under the co-op name through co-op stores, or do they have their own trade name, if we could be advised as to the marketing aspect of this product? HON. J. COWAN: I think there might be a slight misunderstanding. They are now reviewing the possibility of forming a co-o p. They're undertaking a study. They have not incorporated as of yet, so that would be a decision for them to make at the time of incorporation as to exactly what name they would like to call the co-op and how they would like to market the product.

There has been a good deal of interest though and, we think, positive response to our work with them suggesting that they do form such a co-op. MR. D. GOURLAY: So it's still in its development stages at this point. lt hasn't actually functioned in any aspect at this point? HON. J. COWAN: it's a number of individuals who have been seeding lakes and producing rice as part of their own activities. When they gave consideration as to how to structure that organization In order to expand its activities, In order to take advantage of the opportunities in the area, they thought of a co-op struc ture.

They made contact with the department. They made contact with the MLA for the area, and he made contact with myself. We've had those discussions with them, and it's my understanding that they're still very interested In forming a marketing co-op for their product, but they are doing a feasibility study at this time as to exactly how that would be done. I think that's probably an appropriate mechanism to make those final determinations.

We've provided them with the information we can and also with the offers of assistance If, in fact, they want to Incorporate. lt's now up to them as a group to decide whether or not they want to Incorporate. Of course, we're encouraging Incorporation for viable enterprises as co-operatives, as part of the normal activities of the department, and will continue to do so. But the choice, as you're well aware, has to remain in the hands of the membership. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are these all new producers, or have some of them been in wild rice production for a number of years?

I think the Minister just mentioned there were six people involved. I'm just wondering how long some of these people have been In wild rice farming. HON. J. COWAN: There are more than six, and I can't give you an exact number right now, but the group is 2049

growing it appears from the minutes of each meeting. So we can cert ainly anticipate that there would be at least that number and more if they were to incorporate. Some have been actively involved in wild rice seeding and harvesting in the area. The gentleman with whom the Member for The Pas and I had our discussions was very knowledgeable in the area, and probably one of the more knowledgeable people in Northern Manitoba, if not in the whole province, as to wild rice operat ions.

There are others involved with him that are coming in on a first-time basis and are probably gaining knowledge as they proceed . lt's my understanding that they've seeded a number of lakes In llford, Leaf Rapids, Wabowden, Thompson, Pukatawagan, Snow Lake, Sherldan, Flin Flon, Cranberry Portage and The Pas area. They are per ceiving the wild rice industry-and I think correctly so - as another secondary industry for many single industry areas in the North and are proceeding on that basis.

So there are those who have had some fairly extensive experience on their own; there are those that are less experienced . 1 also know that they have been looking at what harvesting oper ations and mechanisms have been put in place in other jur isdictions, such as Saskatchew an, and trying to gain from their experience and expertise as well. MR. D. GOURLAY: Over the years - I don't know just how long ago it would be - but there was an extensive wild rice project undertaken by The Pas Band, I believe, on property west of The Pas to make a man-made situation to grow wild rice.

I think that project probably failed; I am not sure. I don't think that's functioning today. But would some of those people who were involved in that project be involved in this project? HON. J. COWAN: With your indulgence, I would ask the Member for The Pas, who has a more dir ect knowledge, to maybe update us on that because as a department we don't have that information available to us, but he can provide the answers to your questions perhaps. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr.

Chairman, an individual by the name of Earl Claven was emp loyed by the federal Department of Economic Dev elopment, and he was the individual who was pursuing the wild rice operation for The Pas Indian Band. This individual, when he quit the department, moved to Saskatchewan and since that time that wild rice operation has been closed down. lt was only The Pas Band members who were involved at that time. None of the individuals who were involved with this rice processing plant at The Pas were involved in that opera tion. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I thank the Minister of Northern Affairs for that information. 1 direct a further question to the Mini ster respo nsible for Co-operative Development regard ing wild rice co­ ops in the province. Are there any in existence in other parts of the province that he knows of? HON. J. COWAN: No, there are none that are currently incorporated, although I personally know of a numb er of individuals in my own constituency who are again review ing the option in a very prelimin ary fashion.

I think it's a concept and an idea whose time has yet to come, but I certainly share the enthusia sm of the members opposite and members on my side as well for an expansion of wild rice activity in the province, the creat ion of a new industry, a secondary Industry in many areas. Hopefull y, some of those groups, if not all of them, will use the co-operative model as a way of structuring their activities because I think it provides many benefits to different organizations and groups that may be spread out in the way in which they are as an organiza tional, economic entit y. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I don't have any further questions, but just as a comment, I certai nly wish this project well. I think that it has cer tainly a lot of potential. I believe the co-operative approach should lend itself well to developing this into a much larger industry than we see in the province today. I am sure that there is great market potential for this product, and I look to the future with interest and hope that this can be expanded as another kind of Industry that will be available to Northerners for the benefit of not only Manitobans but Canadians that like to enjoy wild rice. HON. J.

COWAN: Having a taste for it myself, I certainly appreciate the comments that have been made, and the encour agements and signs of support, and will ensure that as we work with those co-operatives, they are made aware of the general level of support that exists for them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Vere ndrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A few quick questions. A day care co-operative, are they allowed to form If the government does not give them any subsidized spaces? HON. J.

COWAN: My understanding is that they would be allowed to form without subsidized spaces, but the cost economies may not be there. Of course, that would be up to the members of the co-ops themselves. General ly, they do form with subsidies provided to them, but I am certain that is not a requirement. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recog nize the Member for La Ve rendrye, I made a mistake. The Member for Ste. Rose was ahead, but with his Indulgence the Member for La Ve rendrye may proceed . - MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you.

I just want this clearly understood that if a group of people get together and form a day care co-operative, the government will issue a licence and they will not be requir ed to have subsidized spaces before they receive that licence, is that right? HON. J. COWAN: Perhaps the member can provide me with the last part of his question. I missed it. MR. R. BA.�MAN: The Min ister just said, and I just want to get this straight, that parents can get together 2050

ThuNd ey, 18 May, 1985 and form a day care co-operative and receive licensing from the province without having to have subsidized spaces within that day care? HON. J. COWAN: That's basically correct . They can incorporate as a co-operative; they can function as a co-operative; the licensing is required and they have to meet the general provisions of the act and the regulations in respect to day care.

If they meet those licensing and regulatory provisions, then if they can operate viably or, in their own minds, operate viably as a co-op, there would be nothing to prevent them from doing so just because they did not have subsidized day care spaces. They would have to meet the other requirements of other legislation though. MR. A. BANMAN: I would like to deal briefly with a few areas. I understand, from talking to my colleague, that we will be moving from one area to another and then pass it in general later on.

I would like to ask some questions about the loan that has been given to the Credit Union Stab Fund and the Le Fonds de S�urite. My first question is - I wonder if the Minister could again just refresh our memory - what are the amounts that were given to the credit union? Is it $25 million and $4.5 million, I think is what it was? HON. J. COWAN: That is correct. MR. A. BANMAN: The government has included some $4.38 million in costs to the government by way of interest forgiveness.

Was the actual money transferred; in other words, whether the $25 million was a cheque or some vehicle for transfer done at the time when these funds were earmarked or allocated to the two stabilization funds? HON. J. COWAN: it's my understanding that the money was transferred but then was. as per the agreement, used to purchase Manitoba Government bonds, and then the interest flow has originated from those bonds. So there was a transfer in some money, or transference of the cheque, but it was made under an agreement that it would be immediately used to purchase those bonds. MR. A.

BANMAN: So the credit union movement is not admin istrating the funds, or is not using the funds in any way in the operations of either the Le Fonds or the Stabilization Fund? HON. J. COWAN: They are using the interest that flows from the loan, but they are not using the principal. MR. A. BANMAN: Since the loan amounts to a little less than $30 million to the two agencies and we've got something like 4.38, almost $4.4 million, is the effective rate of interest over 14 percent on that loan? HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, I might just add a bit more information, that to date including and up to the 1984- 85 fiscal year, monies that have flowed by way of interest to the Stabilization Fund have been $10,2 05,573.63; and that which has flowed to Le Fond has been $1 ,837,003.25, for a total of $12, 042,576.88. lt is anticipated that by the end of the five-year agreement, monies that will have flowed will be in the order of just under $22 million. MR. A. BANMAN: What is the effective rate of interest? HON. J. COWAN: I believe the effect ive rate of interest is 14.875 percent which is locked into the end of the agreement.

That's the case. MR. A. BANMAN: Is the Minister saying that the Finance Department gave the money to the Stabilization Fund; the Stabilization Fund in turn bought a debenture from the Province of Manitoba. a five-year debenture at an effective rate and the province is paying now 14.875 percent interest on that debenture, is that right? HON. J. COWAN: That is correct. MR. A. BANMAN: Since the agreement has run now some 2.5 years, I believe, what is the Mini ster's projections with regard to the position of the fund when the debenture becomes due, what happens? HON. J.

COWAN: What is happening at present Is we were talking with Le Fond and the Stabilization Fund in respect, and the central, and the Federation, to determine how it is we deal with the situation at the end of the agreement. They are doing project ions as to what position they should be in respect to the overall health of the system at the termination of the agreement and we are discussing those projections with them. They are suggesting that there should be an extension of the loan under similar or different circumstances. They are looking at restructuring plans internally.

We have indicated to them that we are prepared to discuss those options with him at this time in order to get to get a fuller understanding of their position and our position, but any decisions as to a continuation of the agreement will have to be made at a later date. We are not ruling out that possibili ty. At the same time, we want to ensure that the projec tions that are coming forward are those that we can rely upon and base the decisions upori.

Generally, If it appears as If the system can pull itself out of the difficulty which necess itated the loan in the first place, then there would be really no requirement to extend the loan. If it looks as if they require further assistance In order to come to a healthier position, then we'll be prepared to discuss that with them. No final decisions have been made in either regard as of yet. MR. A. BANMAN: So after two-and-a-half years it's still pretty hard to tell exactly where we're going to go with the loan itself, or I guess, really, In essence, the grants that they're rec eiving on an annual basis.

Has there been any discussions with regard to not only how the debenture will be handled when it matures, but of any pay-back

schedule by the movement? HON. J. COWAN: The discussions haven't reached that level of detail as of yet, but I certainly would anticipate that all sorts of different options will be put forward 2051

by the different parties once those discussions do reach that particular stage and those issues will most likely be under discussion as options come forward. I'm being informed that the system Itself believes there will be a requirement for some sort of an extension. Exactly what form that extension might take Is yet an open question and whether or not there will be an extension is yet an open question, but I think the basic principle that underlies the discussions is to provide for the continued health of the system. The loan was given In the first Instance to allow the system to strengthen itself.

I don't think one would necessarily want to say that the system hasn't reached a point where it has become fully streng thened. The projections can only Indicate that, but there has been an apparent strengt hening of the system. There has been an asset growth, a membership growth. We believe that the system has put In place a number of other operat ional procedures such as a Performance Improvement Program .

The government has put In place the Examination Program, are looking at the regulations in the legislation so that as part of a whole package, we're hoping that our efforts will bring some viability back to the system. However, what has to be empha sized is that the primary respo nsibility for improving and strengthening the system lies with the credit union and the caisses populaires membership at the local level. That self-help has always been an important component of co­ operative activities and it is In this instance.

We 're prepared to sit and discuss what role the government might play when it's required to assist. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell me how the credit unions that were facing real difficulty - Daughln, Portage, Assiniboine Credit union - how did they make out this year? HON. J. COWAN: Generall y, the ones that were listed by the member have been making progress, some to a greater extent than others, some were in very difficult circumstances and of course that takes time to work one's way out of. However, they are doing that. The projections are good in most Instances.

I believe there is only one smaller operation where the circumstances have deteriorated most rec ently , but even in that case we expect that appropriate actions can satisfy any concerns or problems at this time. lt's looking very good for those particular credit unions and the cases that are affected as well general ly, and we think that they will be able to pull themselves out of specific circumstances over time. The project ions and the prognosis are positive. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to deal with them specifically; first of all, Dauphin.

Could the Minister tell me if they had an asset growth this year, and if there was any loss retirement? In other words, did they make any money to pay off some of the large losses that they have incurred? HON. J. COWAN: I can give a general answer, that we understand they are, In fact, having a growth in assets and that they are dealing with their problem in respect to Dauphin. I do hesitate to get into specific detail on specific credit unions in a forum such as this.

I don't mind answering the general questions, however, I'm certa in you can appreciate that some of the Information is privileged Information, and some of the Information could also, If it were not dealt with in the whole, cause concerns that would be unne cess ary. Howe ver, in respect to general questions and general answers, I have no difficulty, and I would cer tainly be pleased to arrange meetings or to seek approval to transfer specific information to the member directly as req uired on the more detailed questions. MR. R.

BANMAN: Wel l, I will tell the Mi nister that I won't press the matter , but I somewhat object to that, and I'll object as a cred it union mem ber. As a member of the Stelnba ch Credit Union, which pays a very very large fee Into the Stabi lizatlon Fund now and pays a very large share into the operat ions of the whole Fund.

What really, I think, I have to say is that I think it Is important for ail of us around this table, as well as the public general ly, when we're starting to put this kind of money In, to know exactly what's happening with regard to the ones that I mentioned that real ly caused a lot of the problems.

I know what the Minister is saying, we want to avoid any possibility of having any runs or anything like that, but I think that has already been dealt with to the extent that the govern ment has indicated that they will, and have obviously, by the amount of money you put In, will not allow a run to happen and will not allow a credit union to fail. To that extent, that has already been taken care of.

But I want to say to the Min ister that I know that stuff is all available, Portage is available - my colleague has the information on that - but there is the real problem of the credit unions that do have, and have over the last number of years, had good management, had done business in a proper manner, almost being penalized because their share and their growth has been really quite large and, of course, now are being asked to support the system in a very very heavy manner as far as the assessments are concerned.

So I just raised that at this point and I was interested to know what was happening at Portage, Dauphin, Assiniboine and a few others with regard to them trying to get back on their feet . I would ask the Minister if he foresees more mergers in the next couple of years to consolidate some of the credit unions and try and reduce the operat ing costs, as well as the profitability of some of them. HON. J. COWAN: Ye s, I think it's fair to say that there will most likely be more mergers over the coming years. MR. R.

BANMAN: Does the Minister, in their projec tions with his staff, foresee any expansion - I'm talking about the growth that some of the credit unions - any expansion in the forming of any new credit union co­ operatives over the next four or five years, or will we be basically in a holding pattern trying to stabilize the system the way it is right now? HON. J. COWAN: First, before I answer, I want to deal with the objections that the member had regarding the provision of inrormation and try to work out a suitable mechanism for providing him with that information. 2052

Would he be agreeable that, if there were specific concerns on specific credit unions and caisses populalres that he had, that we could check to make certain that the credit union and caisses populaires had no dif ficulty sharing that information and then, if questions arose from that, he could ask questions in a normal fashion during question period or directly of me.

Some of the information is already public, granted, but it's made public by way of a public meeting, the credit union or caisses populaire annual meeting, or membership meeting, and I think that's the right way for the information to flow; to the members first, where they can deal with it and then, if it wants to be reported in the local media, I think that's appropriate. We have a somewhat different relationship with the credit unions and caisses populaires, but I certainly agree with the Member for la Verendrye that we should flow as much information as possible.

So, before dealing with his second question, would that be an appropriate way to provide that information to him on specific credit unions, if required? MR. A. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just point out to the Minister that I believe that since most credit unions and caisses populaires, well most, all of them, are responsible to their memberships, that all information, since it's a public body, ail information should be given to the members and if in certain instances it is embarrassing to the Board, so be it.

I think one of the biggest problems that we've had in the whole system in the last 25 years is that we have had the boards almost abdicate their responsibility. When you look at what happened in The Pas, what happened in Thompson, we had credit unions that were losing money five, six years in a row, and nobody was accepting any responsibility. And the only thing that makes a co-op work is that if you have people - and the Mini ster alluded to it earlier - if you have people who are dedicated to co-op movement and dedicated to see the facility work.

So I just say to the Minister, I have certain questions and I'll write them down and send them to him and he can maybe provide me with the answers. But I really have to say that I think ail the information should be made public; the members should know what's happening; and the board has to be accountable. I know there's an argument there where they say, well they won't get any board mem bers to run, but somebody's got to, in the final analysis, be accountable.

I think we got ourselves Into this big mess In the first place by not having enough people around that were accountable to us in the first place, and that's the problem with CCIL and everything. What happened, the bureaucracy took over and suddenly the money was coming in and the managers and people just took off with the system and, before you know it, we were out of control. And now, of course, we're all in a holding action, as well as trying to rebuild the system. So I'll jot a few of those things down and I'll forward them to the Mi nister and he can provide me with the information. HON. J.

COWAN: Perhaps I can answer his other question then, and comment on his other comment. And I agree with him that the information should be made available to the members and there has to be accountability at the membership level and certainly that is taking place more and more. There has been an improvement in that area, I am certain, at the local level. Ho wever, the in formation should be made available first to the membership, so that they can deal with it before being made public.

So that is why I would like to check with the individual credit unions and caisses populaires and even co-ops to see If there is any difficulty. I recall last year we had some discussion on Federated in the Annual Report and once we contacted Federated there was no difficulty in following the Annual Report.

But, because the movement itself, so jealously and I think appropriately guards its autonomy, I think, as Mi nister respo nsible, I should show them that confidence in that autonomy and that courtesy - I think it probably goes beyond that courtesy, it's probably a requirement of my position to guard their autonomous position as much as possible. But certainly I'll try to make as much information available, in whatever way through a co-operative mechanism, with them as I can.

The member talked about the overall system and how one part of the system sometimes will pay for another part of the system which is not operating as successfully, and that's going to happen from time to time. That's why there are central organizations and stabilization funds, and there is co-operation among co-operators which is one of the six basic principles. I'm certain that I need hot tell anyone in this room that that is extremely crucial.

I recognize that the Member for Roblin-Russell was a member of the Central at one time - as a matter of fact, I think when he was elected to the House he was a member of the Central. I know that the Member for La Verendrye has a strong history in the credit union movement in his own area. Last year, we talked about a couple of those credit unions, Niverville and Steinbach. I think we had much the same discussion.

There is a reason for that co-operation though, and that's so that when one part of the system happens to be in some difficulty, the whole system can be put in motion in order to deal with those problems. That's the whole principle around which the central organizations had been developed, to provide services, to provide support. I agree with him that the membership at the local level has a very prominent role to play in making certain that the co-op or the credit union or the caisses populaires functions effectively and efficiently; that's their responsibility; that's the role of the membership.

Anything we can do to encourage that, anything that we can do to help them In that role, I think, is a productive use of our time. In regard to new credit unions and calsses populaires, yes, I expect that there will be growth in the system beyond the actual num bers of credit unions and caisses populalres that we have at present. I think it will be limited growth.

I mentioned last year, and I think we all agreed, that we were in a period of consolidation and strengthening the systeni, and that any growth that would come over a period of time would be slow growth most likely because, when you're In those sorts of circumstances, you want to use your energies to provide for the stability which Is necessary. 2053

Thursday, 18 May, 1885 At the same time, there are groups out there that have approached me, as Minister, and have approached staff, that are interested in forming new credit unions and caisses populaires. Those discussions right now are at the preliminary stage, for the most part, but I would fully anticipate that there will be some new ones coming on stream in the near future, but it will be a very limited numb er to the best of my knowledge. MA. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to give the opportunity to the Member for Ste. Rose to ask his question because we'r e going into Private Mem bers' Hour. The Member for Ste. Rose.

MR. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Some of the questions were raised by the Member for La Verendrye and, most of the questions he asked, I was aware of the information. What I wanted to perhaps ask the Minister was, he indicated there were 31 credit unions and five caisses populaires that were still in a deficit position, was that correct? HDN. J. COWAN: That's correct. MR. A. ADAM: Basically there hasn't been any change in the two-and-a-half years as to the num bers. Have there been any that have come out of a deficit position? HON. J. COWAN: I'm sorry, I missed that. MR. A.

ADAM: Have there been any that have come out of a deficit position? We assume that they've all ameliorated. HON. J. COWAN: I think, basically, there have been a number of mergers, a number of ones coming in and going out. There are some that are very close to coming out now. lt's just a matter of a very short period of time, but the group has stayed basically the same. MR. A. ADAM: There were approxima tely, as I recall, 30 percent of the credit unions that were in some financial difficulty. Unfortunately, most of them were the larger ones.

What I want to get at is, the assistance is provided for the deficit as of the day of the assistance package. Are we working on the deficit prior to the assistance package, or are any bad loans or bad deals since that time of 1982 being added to the deficit position, and we are now assisting bad deals since that time? That's a clarification that I would like to have, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. COWAN: No, the deficit at any given time is a figure representing the deficit at that given time; it's not locked into what the deficit was several years ago.

As a matter of fact, after the original deficit projection was determined, the deficit grew over a period of time because there were loans that were coming forward that had to be added to that deficit. lt is now starting to decrease, and we feel that we have Identified almost all, If not all, of the possible problems with the deficit, and that the projections now are fairly accurate. But they did hump after the loan agreement, and they are coming down now. lt's not a static figure, it's a figure that is fluid with the conditions at any given time. MR. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairperson, I assume that the amount of assistance reducing the deficit position would be the amount that is paid out, for instance, 4.388, that would be a reduction to the whole system for this year. Do I und erstand that correctly? Is it the interest that they receive from the loan, from the debenture, is disbursed by the Stabilization Fund? The board makes a decision as to where and which credit unions get this assistance? HON. J. COWAN: The funds themselves do flow the money, and they have their own formulas for calculating the assistance to the individual credit unions and caisses popu laires. MR. A.

ADAM: Can I ask what the global figure was when the assistance package was put together and what it is now? Can I ask that figure? Can we have that figure without zeroing in on any particular credit union? HON. J. COWAN: If it's all right, it's 4:30 or close to 4:30. We would have to do a detailed calculation, we can provide that to the member at 8 o'clock when we next sit, if that's okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is now 4:30 p.m. We are interrupting the proceedings of this committee for the Private Members' Hour. Committee members shall return at 8:00 p.m. this evening.

SUP PLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HE ALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of the Environment and Workpla ce Safety and Health, Item 1. (

a) the Minister's Salary and under that the Workers Compensation Board - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to direct some questions to the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman, regarding the Swan Valley Livestock Co-operative Association at Swan River who employ some six employees. I would like to ask the Minister why isn't it mandatory for this livestock shipping association to pay premiums on behalf of their employees? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under the act, any agricultural operation, as well as a variety of other sectors, don't come under the act in a manda tory fashion but they can voluntarily apply under the compensation system. So all that is required for them to be covered, to have the employees covered is for them to apply for coverage. MR. D. GOURLAY: Has the Minister received any communication from this livestock shipping association requesting the association to be compulsory for them to participate in the workmens compensation program? 2054

,..,.,...., 11 .. l! 1116 HON. G. LECUYER: No, none that I am aware of and I believe that is also the fact. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could explain briefly then just how it works on a voluntary basis. That would be that the livestock shipping association would, on their own, contact the Workers Compensation and list the numb er of employees they have and submit premiums on their behalf. Is this what the Minister is saying? HON. G.

LECUYER: The normal procedure would be for that group to get directly in touch with the director of assessments at the Workers Compensation Board; or for that matter the letter could go directly to the chairperson of the compensation board and then from within would be redirected to the director of assess ment who would then be in touch with that particular operation. MR. D. GOURLAY: I'd like to direct a further question on a different topic.

I had been contacted by a constituent who had unfortunately had a serious accident a number of years ago and has been receiving benefits under the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba; I'm not sure just how long. But his case has been reviewed from time to time, and just recently he was asked to supply complete income information, In other words, to supply a copy of his income tax to the board so that they could review his case and to review the amount of benefits that would possibly be coming to him.

Now I understand that his worker's advisor had Indicated to my constituent that it was not necessary for him to disclose this kind of information. I wonder if the Minister could respond to that to see whether it is mandatory that people who are receiving benefits under the Workers Compensation that it Is mandatory for them to supply complete detailed information on their income tax. HON. G.

LECUYER: I'm not sure I heard the entire question from the mem ber, but I believe the member might be ref erring to a constituent in this particular case who is perhaps self-employed , In which case that would be at various times required as part of the ongoing review for a number of reasons as well as to, in particular, determine the wage loss that is being Incurred by the actual claimant and that would be one, and probably the only, valid method of determining what his wage loss would actually be. So that is current practice in situations where the Individual claimant is self-employed . MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I believe the individual does make some income from that type of emplo yment that he has undertaken since his injury, but the information that the board is asking for Is, and they've sent a form here.

"To whom it may concern: This will be your authorization to provide the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba with copies of my income tax returns for the years 1982 and 1983." Now, why would the worker advisor s ay that it's none of the Workers Compensation's business to have all this information, and the constituent has adjusted the declaration to read , "This will be your authorization to provide the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba with copies of my income from employment and pension income for the period requested ." Now, I fail to see where, even though this man is self-employed as a result that he's doing different work than he was doing before he was injured and I don't see the reason why he should have to disclose income from perhaps investments, or such, with respect to deciding what kind of benefits he is to receive under the Workers Compensation.

HON. G. LECUYER: lt's very difficult to comment in details from a number of standpoints; first of all, that I don't have the whole background of the particular case; and secondly, I cer tainly wouldn't want to break any confidentiality of this in regard to this particular claimant.

But a further occurrence where it might occur that this information is required - and the member had Indicated as part of his remarks that the claimant has been receiving some form of assistance in the form of benefits - and it might be that as part of those benefits there was some business star tup assistance, and there again they would have to have tax forms to determine viability as we ll as wage loss, if any.

Now, I can't make any comments on the reference to the worker advisor reply unless I have the full details of it, and perhaps the member would like to apprise me In confidentiality of the particular situation so that I can pursue it. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would thank the Minis ter for that response, and I would be pleased to send him further details of specific information with respect to this case and to see If, in fact, the Workers Compensation Board is rea lly asking for more information than they are entitled to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVN ATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Last night when I left here, I kind of left with a clear mind and a pretty clear conscience, but I had time to reflect on some of the remarks that I had heard yesterd ay, and I'm really prepared to carry on just a little bit longer. I had assured the Minister that I wasn't just going to talk on anything just for the sake of talking to keep the committee in session, but I think the Honourable Member for lnkster is going to pose a few questions to the Minister also.

I think that, just to get down to some specifics, I have had a couple of claims and I have made the Minis ter aware of some of these claims where people have contacted me and I had assured them that 1 would present their case to the Minis ter and to the Workers Compensation Board, not that I have been able to go through the claims in any detail although I had special permission to go through their health records which is req uired by law.

I did receive that, but as I mentioned to the Minis ter I have got to go through hours and hours and days of days of read ing. lt gets down to a point where he and I are not that capable of being able to correct a possible injustice. 2055

Thursday, 18 May, 1985 At this point, I don't know whether it was an injustice or whether somebody was just feeling sorry for themselves. Although when they speak to me, I believe them; otherwise, I would never take up their case at all and present it to the Min ister. The Mi nister is aware of th ree in particular. I had given him a copy of a letter dated March 4th, wherein I had requested some information from the chairman of the board, and the chairman had advised me that I needed signed approval from the particular people to see that I got that information. So I went through the routine and I got it.

I didn't realize what I was getting into. I thought there has to be some way of appeal through the Workers Compensation Board that somebody who Is more qualified than I can start to review these cases. I know that there are Workers Advisors, and I spoke highly of the Worker Advisor yesterday. I spoke against those people who were training, you know, those union representatives who were training. I spoke against those people who are being funded by the Provincial Government to take that traini